Colleague at the other end of the table, professor elizabeth warren, integral part of the now center. Thank you, liz. [ applause ]. Ill get a drawing. Well have a pretty envelope discussion here. Well throw out some questions that occurred to all of us as we have been listening to all these wonderful thoughts. The first question that i will throw out, i trust, has occurred to many of you in the audience and that is, its aimed at gary and chris to. Are your two interpretations garrish with the emphasis on the western teeth here and Eastern Theater, are they add out or compatible or reckon sitable. Im happy to have you go first. I hit it all in the definition of the word is. [ laughter ]. I dont disagree with gary on a lot of of lot of points but without the success of the virginia campaign, that stalemate would have tipped far longer. Im not sure exactly what sherman could have done if grant had not been successful by bringing a point. My point is not to criticize gary because minutes are well made and have been for a number of years. Im simply trying to look at the influence of these western generals and the western idian western war making that transcends into that Eastern Theater by the end of the war to change it dramatically. And these western officers are central in doing that. Many of them. Particularly the highest ranking ones. And grant is the absolute key. Uhhuh. People talk about sherman to defeat. The order comes from grand. Sherman in the shenandoah, orders come from grant and they are identical, the order that sheridan has before shermans. And they are part of grants overall vision. Thats one that he and sherman worked out in the after math of the vicksburg campaign. They talk about the haulek lincoln strategy of war. Even though they often ended up at odds, they came out of the west. All werners. I never had anyone literally go down i mean, i knew. This but to go down and this secretary, this secretary, this secretary and all the key generals are werners. Its really quite remarkable. We had a question from the audience that wondered, is there a reason why so many of these leaders, both military and political are werners . It is just happen stance or is there something to that. If i had the answer to, that believe me, i would be retired to that and have an island in the caribbeans like gary. Probably. [ laughter ]. You didnt have to mention that. Okay. They are not even from the real west where the mountains dont have trees on top. [ laughter ] im sorry. That was the dinner last night. I didnt know i was supposed to say anything. Okay. I dont know. The truth is i dont know. The loss of things that are more etheyeal. Jackson argued with the frontier. The prop tier was different to live on because of the circumstances and many of these people had lived in a place that had been a frontier only recently. Many of them had those experiences whether they be with native americans or just the Hard Scrabble like grant, daytoday quotidian requirements of living. And there were some who were in the west and were in mexico and had seen irregular warfare, either fighting native americans or mexicans. They understood the hard brand of war. They understood it and they didnt back down because their entire lives had been dependent upon. Nothing new about the kind of war. You read that sherman inhavented total war. Nothing absolutely war. They are going back to the peaquot war. You destroy the logistical capacity of your opponent to survive in the winter. We did that during the second seminole warfare. They are not reinventing the wheel but applying in a way that had not been applied quite so readily. One more thing. One thing thats different missouri is different. The reason that we have a lieber coast is because that was different. Hallek wanted him to help. Combatants, how do you deal with these people and those people . That is the genesis of the lieber code. Thats the guerilla problem. Nothing comparable in the east. One more thing and then im going to stand down and let the others have it. I didnt read this because i was oning short on time. Hi a paragraph about James Montgomery having come to the c i lines and took command of the second South Carolina volunteers which was one of the first two regiments in the entire war made up of purely freed people. Lanes freed people had comprise entire regiments. Shaw was under montgomery. He wrote in his letter, if you have never seen these letters added by russell duncan, they are spectacular letters. This is what this is what shaw wrote about montgomery when particularly surrounding the sacking or the burning of darian, georgia, in june of 1863. This is what he wrote. He referred to montgomerys policies, his aintian mode of warfare that was more extreme than anything he had seen in the army of the potomac. This is not a fair standup such as our potomac armies are accustomed to. This preying, shooting, burning and hanging, firing into houses. Occupied by noncombatants and burning town dwellings which sheltered only women and children are not the true means to put downtown rebel onand montgomery disagreed entirely. And, in fact, shaw went on to say he called it his indian mode of warfare and those are his words. Great scene in glory about the burning of gary. That reference bring us back to talking a little bit about the setting the carolinas what traps pires in it . Toe what is the story of new burn in the wake of the war and its very interesting focal point to suggestion many many other things. We ought to be thinking about a Coastal Carolina theater and so on. Tell us about newburn about the character in your story. I come to newburn through william singleton. I didnt just i didnt want to study newburn and figure out what happened there although it turned out to be very fascinating. But i think that following the sources, where we find refugees is whats the starting point and it came clear that geographically, each respective nation treated refugees in a different way and that became very confusing. They recommend a number of legalities depending upon which government you are talking about and the laws of those states. When the emancipation proclamation came out and defined how were going to look at them under martial law, it becomes a very important precedent, not only ohm during the war and throughout the conduct of the war but often throughout reconstruction where there are moments where, and particularly in North Carolina where the governor actually has to pass a state of emergency and declare that martial law in North Carolina. And this relates to the treatment of everybodyof African American and this go to until the development reflects the Legal Development of the war. They dont write, as we know, that these construction measures become, you know, measures that people dont really neck nice throughout the rest of the 19th century to the degree that they did during the war in the immediate post war moment. But. There are African Americans. What do we do with them. I think what really is interesting about singleton is that we get to see what that interaction looked like that he there are peopleey americaning from the swamps which, to me, is fascinating that there are account of the swamp in that mom where the people had been there in years one they learned of Union Soldiers are coming over the line. Newburn is fascinating because that site becomes the point of arch can american resistance before the war and also during the war. This question is for everyone, but there has been a renewed interest in the far west lately, the trans mississippi west. What about the western theater . Gary mentioned one new book that came out. Is the western theater getting attention . Do we feel that we just moved to the par west . The western theater still gets a lot of attention, i think. There has been a significant amount of work on the union and con federal army. There is a lot of work on that and on officers. There is a big new book that deals with the attitude towardsey fans paying. That book is christopher tiers practical liberators. I dont think that chris gets at the deep conflict among western officers overey maps paying in the way that maybe he should have but by studying those lower grade officers and seeing the problems that they were facing and the decisions that they had to make in order to could be tend with emancipation policies it entirely new. We have not seen it before. Steve, lets talk about mark twain. I was interested in what he had to say. Lets talk about those it it generalized criticism of the war, civil war. What does he make of lincoln and emancipation . Thats a re very interesting thing. That in the private history of the cape pain, he campaigns he stated that these young men are in a cabin. They dont know how to mount a guard. They hear a rider approaching and they shoot him. They go out and find him. The narrative suddenly changes t twain does a very long thing on killing. On being face to face with something that you kill. Its hypocrit cal, maybe. For twain, any kind of union, states rights was bankrupt. He was not interested in that at all. He thought and it could be his missouri again, missouri keeps coming u it could be that missouri is a kind of threshold place but i dont think that he we hear spleenier tight. Why do people fight, this cause and that ideology. I dont think that twain accepted any of. That from the beginning, he saw through what he felt was he may not have articulated it this way at 25 years old but he was not sold on any of the rationale. He thought it was appalling from the beginning and he wanted out. And, you know, he stages it as it own cowardice. Maybe. I dont know. But a lot of people felt that way. This is not what then wanted to do. What did he think of ambrose pierce, the red badge of courage. Both were out in san francisco. I think that there would have been just a kind of mutually snarling viturapeative admiration. Twain, depending upon how you see it, descended or moved into cynicism in no spall part because of the tragedies of his own life. He lost a lot of people close to him, business failures and so on. I think they came to the same place. Particularly what sent twain right around the edge was the guilded age. And just he had nothing good to say about that. As a product of twains america across the river in western illinois, i long argued that huck finn is an anti war novel. The outcome of the war led to the restism that he villifies in the narrative of the book. Sosa at this timeally. He is saying, the war was a mistake. That is a condemnation of the war. People read connect yankee as an antiwar. Yes. Will, in thinking about rosecranz, did he read about people who serve in multiple theaters that moved rather than from the west to the east, wait that sheridan and grant did from the east to the west. He didnt really no. That was an easy one. No. En didnt really. The west was his triumph in terms of the bat will of the stones river. He was forever trying to recreate the strategy and tactics and it was also the anniversary of his marriage to his wife. So it had double meanings for him. I dont know. She always liked the anniversary letter by i dont know. Seriously, there are 10 of these. He didnt really he didnt write that much after the war. The family begged him to write. He didnt think that anybody would he didnt see any money in it. Through economic and political. The War Time Military Service by ustc regiments. Tell us a little bit about those champions of blacken list. Like Frederick Douglass, two what degree were they overlly was that a very explicit theme in those calls for military service . Absolutely. I think that Frederick Douglass really wanted to make a point that this is the heritage of black men, that this is a long tradition of service but this particular mohammed seemed to be special for him because, this could be the moment, hope against hope, that black people everywhere could become free. Those wars preceding the civil war were as used in abolitionist literature to make the case for abolition long before the war. This was the cumulation of years after years of building that cage. Whenever there was a war, there was this charge that this could be a really interesting opportunity. But what makes this really you know, during the revolution war, war of 1812, there is not this robust black crest that exists like it does for the civil war and so, so, this moment is real yes key because it signals sort of the really black voice that Frederick Douglass leads this charge. He is not the only voice by any means but he is articulating this in particular way thats connecting the legacy of those veterans from the revolutionary war to that particular moment. When i wrote about appomattox, i was interested to see the sort of slogan of commutators writing about that. To describe that long history. The African American place, when i began to look at then, i was surprised how many soldier letters there are in those newspapers, first hand way to get at the voices of soldiers. I will go off of that. Starting in 1875, are western leaders, in particular are thinking about their experience and even the perception. Do ustc regiments or colonels any about the roles that African American troops played in different theaters of the war was that ever part of the conversation, the way it was among white Union Veterans about the army of the potomac . Absolutely. I think, you know, they think in terms of battles. Skirmishes as well, become significant vetance didnt really talk aboutthey talked about bigger campaigns, right. By the time the war ends, most folks are must erred out but the usct is still they are headed west now and so they have to deal with the west in a particular way that is really critical to have understood the legacy of the fighting. That they are fighting didnt end at the moment that we say it ends but that fighting really, as soldier, continues on what are some you said that we can learn as much from the failed relationships as from successful partnerships what is that historians out to focus on and might not have they have not focused on already. But, i mean whats in the top 5. I was going to is actually going to talk about the confederates in the runup to the bad will of chickmonga. He swarted might have defeated the rosecrantz but that poor relationship between bragg and his top subordinate frustrated his effort to attack rosecranz piece million. Thats a very important part of that story. You can go back to West Virginia, same thing. Poor robert e. Lee, you know, old granny lee, statesly lee. That cops from West Virginia and his inability to accomplish anything there at all. He had two intort nats i believe both former governors of virginia, if im not mistaken who could not get along at all and the con federal personalities that were splash in that theater helped rosecraz to overcome many of his difficulties and prevented the confederates from retaking the state. I talked about stanton and mccle, stanton versus a lot of people. I think of the surgeon general. Think of the Union Soldiers because a brilliant general was ushered out because stanton took a disliking to him. Hammond had the great idea that perhaps taking mercury for pretty much anything illness in the 19th century and this was an excuse to throw him out according to william marble. There are so many. Like sheridan, grant and sherman. Any list of failed relationships would have to why Jefferson Davis and Joseph Johnson near the top of the list. Absolutely. I have long wondered and never thought about it until i saw think deep the divisions went politically between western commanders at the high levels where republicans were eagerly trying to bring down democratic commanders like grant and sherman. I always wondered whether rosecrans like buehl, mcly, in addition to their battlefield failures, i wonder what role i always wondered. I think there is a role in politics. And mccornyn. Perfect example. It showed. If you look at the buehl court martial. They are not talking about him as a failing commander but as a pro slavery hack. I wondered if these became important in some of those demotions a great example or question would be rosecrans who was a moderate democrat from the west. The politics played out in the testimony before the joint committee. If you want to see the political infighting, particularly in the armies of the potomac. Look at that testimony. Its been reprinted, been indexed. So you can take your favorite person who has been pilloried by the committee. This is giving you a sense of how political carriage, the military political nexus could be. I have a a question for carrie principally. Lets talk about in terms of we can draw some stark contrast between northern memories and southern memories of the war but the regional differences within the north and south, do they inflict the memory, upper memory, lower south you know, regional die visions do, they shape memory traditions in your view . I was really struck by the anecdote that chris began with, 1874 springfield gathering which brought to mind that Union Veterans should be more divided. And perhaps we should not be surprised about that than their con federal counterpart. They talk about the army of the tmz group. These,le organizations formed. There is a pushback, always, i didnt find what you were you can yourtalking about at all surprising because they are always pushing back against the armies of the potomac which does not win a clear battle against gettisburg and all they want to talk about is gettysburg. If you look at the monumentation going on, that first real push of monumentation is at gettysburg and all those armies potomac veterans talking about what great work they do. There is a reason that the War Department decided that chattanooga would be the First Military part because those western veterans are tired of hearing about gettysburg and they very consciously organized groups to come together. They picked athe reconciliation goes within Union Veterans and between union and confederate veterans there. I will amplify your question by saying that there was a very distinctive where memory not mopping all werners but some veterans. I had a great pleasure to direct a dissertation that turned into a book that won the wylie silver price by Matthew Stanley and the book is called simply the loyal west. It is a quote from the western veterans, some of ham i earned in my vignette who were resent will of emancipation being drafted on to the war narrative and they refused to accept that as part of the victory narrative. They were trying to argue, and they were very sensitive about it is that we won the war by the way we fought it and it had nothing to do with slavery. We fought our war. We didnt go to war for slavery that created a deep dividing between western and eastern veterans and northern. That was a powerful one and it became a code mopping those People Freedom natalie democrats but not exclusive democrats after the war in the western stayed states who said, this is entirely fabricated it in contrived. Let me ask the question, chris. Where cost john palmer fit into this, because he is very at least by the time of the dedication in 1895, thats where he is standing up, yell at the dedication this this is always about livery and that union troops, from the beginning, were marching south, not just to free the slaves but to instale civil right. John m. Palmer is an illinoisan who was an be a biggsist before the war and abolitionist after the war. He became the governor of kentucky. He wrote to his wife on many occasion, particularly one in a one in which he said, i have fulfilled everything that i have set out to fight for. I have just aaccomplishedey man paying in kentucky one way is to read the memorial landscape. Is this itif you read them there, the words that will appear most often by far is union. And emancipation appears sometimes, but union overwhelmingly more common on the monuments than emancipation. There are divisions it between confederates. The eastern armies, the southern bivouac was established to counter that. Lets talk about washington, d. C. Garyics you noted an argument on behalf of the centrality of the Eastern Theaters. You have both capitals there. You are finishing a book on washington, d. C. War time washington, d. C. , in the process ofey fans paying there. Is d. C. Kind of generous of the kind of example of it own and people described it as laboratory for freedom in some recent historyography. I think d. C. Is really fascinating because where geography comes to play in many ways. In 1862, the emancipation act is passed. And d. C. Slaves go free but maryland is right on the border and they are loyal slaveholding slave and virginia, too. And, so, in a lot of ways, its about become this laboratory for this experiment for freedom to see how it is also an experiment for lincoln because he really wants ken station to happen. He really wants it to work and he tries this out in d. C. Where he incentivizes this measure by saying, we will compensate owners for their loss. Now, it wont be comparable to what slaves actually were during that time but it was something. Then he also offers pay each free person 100 to go somewhere he is. And, so, to not stay there, right . He is really trying to this is the last ditch effort at colonization. Compensation works, unsurprisingly, right . People get their money. But in some ways, it does not because the way that d. C. Is situated geographically so there are slave holders who live in t c who would move across the border and move their slaves with them to say, no, this does not apply to you. And then so you have slaves coming to d. C. Saying, hey, im actually supposed to be free. My master had moved us over the border. So it becomes this very contested space where the experiment is not just sort of we are experimenting with freeing everybody. Its very constrained by a number of factors, including colonization, the push to colonize which nobody takes advantage of and the contention between slave holiers and former slaves trying to take advantage of that measurement is something that is not sort of this top down experiment but it is a mutually reinforcing experiment. Not fully linear as you show. You are saying there is a great deal of noncompliance with that d. C. Abolition act and people are trying to find ways around it. When you were talking about the west, that phrase, again, we mentioned this once before, chris, enumerating all the western men, this guy is a western man. I was wondering, does western man does it have connotation beyond, you know, someone being hailing from bun of these states, does western man connote something . A couple of things come to mind. One of them is that when whitman is in washington, when the grant review is going on. And whitman loves to look at the soldiers. And he loves a man in in uniform. And it was all pretty good. And then, suddenly, shermans men came to town and whitman saw him. He write about it. Packed in with shermans men like this who are real men. And you can tell it by the way they walk, their gait. Everything. So he is saying, oh, my gosh, i had never really seen manhood like this. The other thing that i would say is that its still to come, but the virgn which basically launches the western, it seems that the central figure there is somebody who has some kind of connection with the south. His name seems to be jeff. Some people think thats Jefferson Davis. But he has gone as well. I think you can begin to feel that the iconography of western melness is already hovering around these moments. Newspapers picked up on that. The western men were rangy. More dangerous. I mean, these are the kind they really drew stark comparisons between the soldiers of the army, the potomac and shermans soldiers. And sherman liked that. Sherman didnt want his men to dress up for the grand review. Taller, longer gait. Tanned. Tanned. I cant help but wonder if that has something to do with more immigrants in the eastern armies than in the western armies, that they looked more, for lack of a better word right now, anglo saxon. I think werners themselves, however they definal themselves, geography or culture or something else, generally sense that west was place that didnt abide by conventional norm. They decided for themselves and reap sented places and situations where things were decided for them. Thats, again, kind of tennerrian in that way. The prop tiersmen figure out for themselves what their society would be like and they resended those who had had a state society, a static society. And i have long argued that it is not until the war that southerners redefined themselves from that same sort of inclaymation. Southerners who would have been, for lack of a better word
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