For joining the session and thank you for having a discussion with us today. It is my plight my pleasure. The general, after he was here for the opening, we had a meeting later that day and he was saying i got to open, it was so much fun and he was talking about the conversation he had and so on and said you are closing it and we will have to and its really exciting conference for us because we had to focus so much on issues so it is frankly an honor for me to be here and you got the best with paul so it was all downhill from there. Jason thank you. Lets jump into the topic around work or spirit we recognize the importance of a talented and Diverse Workforce and cybersecurity, particularly a lot of the challenges we face. There have been amazing tools and technologies being developed. We frankly see our adversaries take advantage of the tools to influence our friends and state actors. So what skill is the Intelligence Community looking for for the work some today and tomorrow . Avril we are obviously focused on stem. That is among great priorities and we have a list of degrees in areas and areas of expertise we are interested in. What is most important at the end of the day honestly is really the skills that are sort of inherent in these different areas, which is critical to thinking and judgment and really excelling at what you do and frankly bringing integrity and ethics and those things, given the extreme area responsibilities we give in the Intelligence Community, so those are the kinds of things we are focused on. We ought to tell people that honestly, no matter what it is you study, chances are weve got a job for you in the Intelligence Community because we do so many Different Things. You can be writing analytic work on food security, environmental issues, scarcity of Natural Resources in different areas and we have somebody who is a water expert. In a way, it is the interconnections they make between the different fields they have that are very special for us in helping us understand the complexity of how the world works and that is so much a part of what we do, so anybody should apply. Www. Intelligencecareers. Gov. The advertisement. Avril exactly, it is what im good for. Jason we all relate to the skills and it appears there has been a repride took ashbury prioritization of the National Security focus, particularly from Counter Terrorism to one focus on defending nation state actors. Is that a bit of a fair assessment, and if so, where there challenges in adapting the work or stew some of those changes in priorities . Avril i think it is mostly fair. In the sense that there is no question the Threat Landscape has changed over the last 20 years. And certainly when the institution i run was established, it was very much a conversation about counterterrorism. It has shifted largely towards strategic competition as you note and yet also transnational threats continue to be a fundamental piece of our work, and increasingly, like part of it. In many ways it is the kind of connections between these different streams, a space we are constantly trying to understand and better predict and effectively provide policymakers with a sense of how things are likely to develop and what are the opportunities and challenges ahead. But the other aspect i would say that has shifted is we are increasingly broadening the definition of National Security, and for us, Climate Change or health and Human Security is such a big part of it, emerging and Disruptive Technologies or cores, a whole series of expertise we are bringing in on different issues. It is first getting the expertise into the Intelligence Community so we can take advantage of it, understand it better, bring it into our work, but it is integrating it so we can bring it into places you dont normally think about it. How do certain negotiations in Foreign Policy affect for example Climate Change issues that are being worked on in other parts of the government and so on, so it is a complex landscape but also counterterrorism remains an issue for us. Harris threat have not gone away and we have to continue to be vigilant about it but we have to understand how it connects to these other issues. Jason its a great point. One im picking up two themes, the connectedness and expanding scope of National Security and i think that is an interesting intro into the next topic or question, which is around a shift in the way we think about communicating and excesses and what kind of learning do you have to think about and take place away from culture and one of trained of compartment asian to one that is open and willing to share. Avril yeah. Heres how i would think about it. We have to be transferable in a sense and the compartment asian piece remains critical to us. We are not going to be able to do our job unless we can keep secrets in a sense and recognize that is a part of our work but exactly as you say, it is we are also increasingly recognizing the importance of sharing across a range of actors. The most obvious in our National Security strategy that the Intelligence Community supports focuses in on the importance of allies and partners. So we recognize that sharing is a big part of promoting better understanding among partners and allies so you have a shared view of the threat so you can then actually respond in an appropriate way to the threat in an innovative and collaborative way and ultimately sharing is important to the implementation of those responses on a series of ways. More relevant to the cybersecurity world is thats on many of you exist in, it is increasingly obvious to everybody that the sort of Threat Landscape requires us to increasingly share intelligence with nontraditional partners, and part of it, i would say, is in understanding the Threat Landscape. We recognize and do these Global Trends every four years or so where we look out about 15 years and say here are the big Global Trends and we can tell from a lot of folks around aachen a mia and think tanks and private sector and so on and one of the key trends you see in a lot of these reports is the growth of and power, of nonstate actors which is important in the private sector but also other Transnational Movement and actors in these spaces and we as an Intelligence Community typically are focused on state actors and proxies of state action but increasingly we recognize we have to think about the Global Landscape in a slightly different way, given the way geopolitical power now is exercised, so as we move down that road, we recognize we need to have a better understanding of the agendas of major multinational corporations or example or cities as opposed to states sometimes or things like that. Built into our we are looking in understanding what the landscape looks at. Additionally, and this is something that is obvious to all of you too, which is we recognize that so much of what is outside of government is part of our attack surface so to speak. Whether it is Critical Infrastructure mostly owned by the private sector or sectors of our private sector like in the Technology Areas that we need to focus on in order to help them protect themselves because they are of such importance from a National Security perspective that we need to share information with them, help them see the trend, but bring them further into the decisionmaking cycle also so we are able to say howdy respond to these things, how do you think you make sense to respond to these things . Because many people in the private sector and other spaces we are trying to work with have that are understanding of what is going to work, what is not going to work, how to think about these issues. Of course you have also an incredible amount of information in the private sector that is valuable to us so we can understand the threat and analyze it appropriately and work with so Many Companies now to try to do that. It is a very challenging space for us i think to get into the right relationships and be able to share the right information, and it is not just about downgrading and declassification, though that is a part of it. It is about establishing mechanisms as part of our routine that make it easier for us to basically partner and communicate in more effective ways. Jason its a lot to cover there. Avril i know, its ridiculous, isnt it . Jason no, it is quite alright but it strikes me particularly from the cyberspace perspective cyber perspective, were dismantling cyber that actors who prod a broad landscape of constituents, so how do you think about collector and analysis organizations, thinking how to be more proactive in countering what they are studying. There is so much to cover, how do you focus in on that . Avril it is something i know less about this then you do for example and probably all of you if not most of you in the eyes as well. If were looking at the cybersecurity landscape, we are in a position where obviously the threat evolved. To cybersecurity, it has been an issue for decades, but ransomware only in the last few years has been something we have been seeing and it is becoming more diffuse when it comes to looking at the ecosystem for ransomware. As an example, in looking at that challenge and trying to understand that Threat Landscape, weve got to reach out to pretty nontraditional partners in order to collect the information we need. Now we have negotiators that sit between companies and those trying to collect ransom from attacks, we have insurers, we have others, we have a series of different partners we need to pull in information from. That is a challenge for us, that is something i think we are Getting Better at but we are not where we need to be ultimately ended is one of it is kind of like a characteristic i think of this area that that is something we need to do in order to do the collection analysis that allows us to be in a position. Another challenge i find is it is often you have actors in the space that are relevant to state actor threats and also to criminal threats. There are sort of two elements to that, one is we are the Intelligence Community, focus on National Security, there are other parts of our government that do Law Enforcement and we support Law Enforcement but we tend to focus our resources on what are most critical threats for the nation and we have to sort of figure out, we know some of the ransomware threats that exist are actually of such intensity or so important ultimately that we need to actually think about them as National Security threats in part and provide intelligence to help us work that through but that is the kind of decision that has to be made about how far down do you go in terms of the support you are providing. The second sort of challenge to it is this issue of we tend to be traditionally focused on our state actors so if it is bprk, cyber threat, russia, china, iran, that is our business, we know how to do that, we have the right group to sort of focus in on it but when it comes to looking at an ecosystem of actors that are out there that might sometimes combined with be used by a state actor, sometimes used in a criminal, in different spaces, it is harder organizationally to go after. These are the things we are focusing on, how do we get better at essentially organizing ourselves so as to go out to the threat most effectively and tap into the talent and resources we need. Jason that is kind of where i want to go next, resources. We have covered strategy, we cover the landscape, covered some of the challenges. First question i have around talent is where is the ic at in terms of garnering the Technical Work skills required for a lot of challenges and landscape you described . Avril i think we are moving in the right direction and have work to do but i give it, and you should tell me if you think this is the right way to thing about it, but i think about it as not just the talent in the u. S. Government in this area. I think of it as laura, our cybers right intelligence integration center, she does a lot of the coordination across the ic and talked about circles where you have your focus on the workforce within the ic and within the u. S. Government and then frankly in the private sector and other spaces around the u. S. Government and i want to see that be more porous. In other words where we can have people going in and out of these different spaces more effectively so we can take advantage of those opportunities to learn from each other as much as possible. I also think there are all kinds of advantages to that, not just in terms of sharing, of learning we are doing across these borders but also i think for the individuals who are thinking about their own provisional development and want to have any opportunity to be in different spaces in order to see where the greatest learning can occur in these different areas. So that is a part of it. I think, to answer your question, obviously we are focused on pay, other things were trying to do to increase the opportunities for folks and i am biased but i believe working in the government is just the most extra neri job you can have in the sense of the mission, the feeling that you can do something that is important for your society would also the people are spectacular. When it comes down to it, i realized older i get the more i come to work for the people i get to work with. And they are really just so exceptional in so many different ways and then also the adventure. You get an opportunity to do things that often and to move in different spaces in government and flex a bit because we do so many Different Things in these areas. I thing that is great. I recognize a pay is not what it is in the private sector, that there are other disadvantages to having to work in a skiff sometimes with no windows, that pretty much sucks. [laughter] jason weve all been there, right . Avril totally. But there are different reasons. I think the fact is there are different models, different ways to think about these issues so i hope we are able to take advantage of where there is real expertise we need but maybe dont have to have at home have it homegrown and in other spaces that we are able to exchange. Jason its interesting you make the concentric circle analogy. I think of it the same way, you have your court ireland, where key knew pull talent from like industries, public and private sectors as well, then further out is where you get a long tail of candidates and skilled workers from, education, whether it is from upper, Higher Education or further into the area. Definitely a way to look at it. You mentioned pay for a second. I want to jump ahead and maybe bring that up for a moment because we know some federal agencies are incentivizing recruiting talent through increased pay, so ic agencies are doing that as well. What is your perspective on leveraging higher pay . Is that effective, needed, where does the ic sit on that . Avril i think it is important under certain circumstances, no question i think it is not just about recruiting, it is about retention. And just thinking through, we are never going to compete with certain aspects of the private sector for just your pay that you will get plus bonus or whatever it is you are focused on but we can compete in other ways in terms of benefits and security and other issues that relate. It is also a different proposition and, as i was alluding to before, i do support incentive pay under certain circumstances and we do think about how we do that in the spaces. I also think it has to be paired with this greater capacity to see movement between, partly what i was talking about before, the value of that but also recognizing this generation does not think about their career typically in the context of i will spend 30 years in government or in the private sector or at one company or right . And recognition of that toward is critical to our the system. There has been a change on way we do with personal benefits to make them more realistic for folks so they can enjoy some security and benefits you get in government but have the flexibility in the sense. Needless to say, it takes us a while to change, we are working on it. So it is part of the process but all of those are i think important to it. I also hope people recognize it is another value i think we have instead, you can come in with different degrees in different areas frankly and become find that you love Something Else and how that degree or education matches is important and i think increasingly i feel as if 10 years ago we were talking about how we needed to have more in a sense of Technology Knowledge among Senior Leaders and tech folks at the table. The conversation shifted at some point in my view to we need to help Technology Folks understand more about Foreign Policy and National Security in our leadership in the space because the interchanges crucial, and when i look at my Senior Leadership team, and i will give you a number for example, might principal deputy, stacy dixon, has a doctorate and masters degree in mechanical engineering. Our cio, remarkable woman, she has a phd in mathematics, our National Intelligence manager for global issues and climate in that as well as Public Health Security Issues also has a science degree and we have the person who runs our Counter Proliferation Center runs see has a met she has a medical degree in Public Health masters in different spaces. There is a variety of different, remarkable, stem educations that come through and i think, hopefully that combination of things is useful to folks. Jason its interesting to hear the diversity you describe there. In my career i started as a Software Engineer and i was always impressed by probably the best Software Engineer i ever worked with had a degree in philosophy. Not even the background, just the person was amazing. Diverse ways of thinking. We talk a little bit about recruiting and talk a little bit about retaining workforce and in scenting through pay. Maybe want to shift back to the existing workforce. Is the approach we have for upscaling the existing workforce different then what we have talked about so far . Avril in terms of upscaling the existing workforce, it is we are definitely trying to create opportunities for folks to sort of learn across disciplines in effect and, sometimes that is by giving them the opportunity to bring the discipline they have into another area so they are able to bring that knowledge and experience and have an effect with it. But if youre somebody that happens to be a cybersecurity expert and now youre suddenly working in the China Missions center, you will learn a lot about the region of asia and understand better some of the geopolitical issues associated with that. And vice versa. And i think that mixing and matching is very helpful. We do also have opportunities for training that we try to create within the community, both inside of the community, within Agency Departments and National Security agency obviously does quite a bit of this in the context of cyber issues, but also outside in pairing with academic institutions and providing opportunities for us to do that together. I think just to circle back to something you said before in terms of your last and centric circle, one of the things we think about is how much should we be spending on trying to actually develop demand for certain skill sets and knowledge sets an educational spaces and in the country and that is interesting. We do two things where we try to expose high schools and tomorrow what we do so we can sort of give opportunities for them to see how they could use these skill sets in the future, but also to try to support some of the Educational Programming in those areas so as to kind of create the to what it is were doing and hopefully that comes together in a way that produces a workforce of the future. Jason we talked a little bit about the threats we face, the priorities and strategies and certainly the people. The piece to me that has always probably the most influential a lot of times in Successive Technology transformations or organizations can be culture. Maybe if you could talk about what you think this cyberculture is in the community and how do you think that goes about informing we have a strong unity of mission and focus on the outcomes you are looking for. You talked about mission and adventure, im all about that culture perspective and maybe you can expand a little bit. Avril absolutely. Im sure many of you are familiar with the Intelligence Community but i will say a few words about our world. There are 18 elements of the Intelligence Community, theres a lot. Many of them are ones you would be familiar with such as cia, fbi, nsa, but we also have maybe you are familiar with the National Space intelligence e, National Reconnaissance organization where they develop Space Capabilities for the Intelligence Community, have elements in basically every military surface that exists so coast guard and marines and navy and air force and army and so on. We have Intelligence Community elements in treasury department, ecommerce, across different places we dont have it in commerce but we have been working with them to develop more opportunities. And so, as you look across this enormous kind of ecosystem of the Intelligence Community, one of the things that we think about and talk about is what does it mean to be part of the Intelligence Community . We are in so many different pieces of what we do. Cybersecurity is a perfect example of some of the challenges but also the opportunity opportunities created through that. Every agency as you might imagine has its own kind of character and culture. For those of us in the ic, we can joke about what those look like in different spaces and it is, in many ways, i think personally you want to promote that. I think that is fine. We have different cultures for different types of mission sets and that is an appropriate thing to encourage to cultivate. At the same time, increasingly, integration amongst the intelligence agencies essentially that exist is what allows us to do the most remarkable things. If you look at Something Like the conflict in ukraine and consider how many different forms of intelligence it took, how many different pieces of the Intelligence Community had to come together to bring the picture together so we can provide policymakers with the kind of indications and warnings we provided, it is remarkable. Never before have i seen the degree to which we have to rely on each other in order to just even collect. We talk about signals intelligence that essentially, human intelligence that does the same for signals intelligence, how we looked at for example commercial imagery and in the context of ukraine to look at the battlefield to be able to present a picture to the world. We looked at a variety of Different Things that have to come together as you think about these issues, and so we recognize the value of integration and culture is so much a part of trying to ask lee produce an environment in which you all recognize that, by leverage each others skill sets, we are going to be able to move forward, and in the context of cybersecurity, what i have noted is increasingly we are seeing folks that this joint duty Assignment Program that you can basically grow up at n. S. A. But then join an assignment of the cia for example or vice versa so you see a fair amount of movement in that space and theres a lot of competition for frankly the Cybersecurity Talent that exists in government so there are those opportunities for folks. That creates extraordinary opportunities so that is one way to affect the culture and create that Community Across the different elements so you can see how it is these different intelligence sources might help you even in the context of cybersecurity. I wish i could go in more details but sometimes it is classification issues. In any event, there are many ways you can do that, it is fascinating. Another thing we do is do the strategic investment where we bring together a group and usually it is one element that said we think this is a gap, this is an issue we need to get after that we are not doing well enough and come up with this and what we try to do his pull together a number of folks who are experts on these issues from different elements and we get them into a room and say how do you all Work Together how can you all Work Together to create something that would get after this most effectively . In those moments, it is completely fascinating that connections they are able to make and the way in which they are able to see opportunities that they would not have seen if they were looking at the picture from different perspectives and with different tools and that sort of thing. And finally, the other thing i would say, it is part of this question of how do you think about sharing with other entities in way more effectively for the ic and how that helps our work. The reality is we in the Intelligence Community tend to be insular. I nature of our work we are costly working classified environments, we are not talking to other people. That is dangerous in the sense that what we are supposed to be doing is better understanding what is happening in the world and being insular and understanding what is happening in the world can have its challenges. So getting out and talking to the private sector, talking to academia, talking to partners in other countries and so on, it is critical to us actually testing our thinking and theories and creating innovation in the sense in these areas that i think is so fundamental to our ability to thrive for the future. Those are all different pieces that we use to try to pull together a culture but it is not a uniform culture. It is rather when i hope incentivizes the kind of integration that we know can allow us to be greater than the sum of our parts in these different areas. Jason i think that is a probably that is probably a fantastic note to stop unpaired we think about the greater of the parts and impact we can have Going Forward with the jobs we face. Thank you very much for your time today to talk about Building Workforce of the future and we all truly appreciated. Around of applause for avril. [applause] general hayden is graciously here to be for dni haynes. Lets please give general hayden a very warm round of applause. [applause] and his wonderful wife, jeanine, is with us as well. Thank you very much. [applause]
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