Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words 20140302

And this includes James Meredith, the first africanamerican to be admitted to the university of mississippi. You want to capture the Human Element in the people that are a part of this three weeks civil demonstration balsa to highlight the key figures the leaders including were to mr. King, carmichael and the man whos started toeholds saying James Meredith in to capture all three. Host fantastic. Lets backtrack. The march the you are referring to tell us about the title. Guest down to the crossroads civil rights, black power, and the meredith march against fear it begins in memphis, tennessee tennis three weeks later in jackson. You can say it approaches the crossroads. The call for black power stoically carmichael unveils that slogan halfway through the march that immediately generates a great swelling of enthusiasm and a new direction of black policy. Those changes might have happened over a course of time anyway but it traumatized because it brought together civilrights leaders white and black to put them into a laboratory of black politics it created a dramatic moments of the keys strakes that has long been animated the Civilrights Movement. Host was dramatizing them march people of my generation especially black people our parents will say we march then retes them behind their back because they always complain about the bunions they got but take us there. Dramatize the march for people that were not there first tee of what was it like . To adjust the pure physical act one of the marchers talk about the status symbol of ventilated tennis shoes that they walked so many miles there were holes in their shoes. Talking about mississippi on the hot open highway just the physical rigor to be a part of the march somewhere between eight or 15 miles in a day. Some people did for most of the three weeks but just the physical aspect it could be quite rigorous genomics with camping at night, dealing with the fears of possible attacks from whites, the men the demonstrations along the way, rallies before Voter Registration and then some violence. Especially in mississippi. Then you have whole host of dramatic moments. Host with these traumatic moments people are familiar with the march that ended on the bridge but this in particular how did it begin . Guest it is a unique story if begins in the mind of James Meredith. He was famous for integrating the university of mississippi 1962 with the ole miss crisis the first africanamerican to attend the white bastion of privilege prompted a federal constitutional crisis to ultimately call in the National Guard. A great try it and two people died and meredith spend one year at ole miss before he graduated in incredible isolation and under constant protection of federal marshals. Much of that began as a very singular individual man. But he was very determined to as an institution of White Supremacy. But after ole miss he drifts off the radar and struggles to find his place he is in washington d. C. , except say fellowship to nigeria he abandons after one year but he has his eye on a larger political career. He envisions the march as a single man. He sees it to encourage people to register if it was starting to use to delay mass Voter Registration but for the average person they realize going to the courthouse to vote and could be accompanied by serious danger, loss of credit. The other aspect of the goal was what he called a walk against freer with Voter Registration tied into the battle. Also a personal ambition to resuscitate his career to run for office. On this second day of the of march the first round he gets a nice warm reception to encourage them a and tell stories of africanamerican men that were so intimidated better now standing up but they still support meredith. Just beginning to achieve his personal vision. Then he continues his walk in there are mississippis state policeman local police , but none of them stop the man from jumping out of the woods to fire three shots covering whispered shot. Meredith is wounded it becomes a Huge National story. It had gotten a little bit of attention but as soon as he was shot the image was plastered on the front page and reaches International Waters and then was prompted to pass more civil rights wrote legislation. It causes all sorts of excitement and tension jackson and memphis. What began as one mans walk where basically every major Civil Rights Organization is determined to carry out James Meredith walk. Host what had inspired them before . What was the difference . Guest originally it was a solitary endeavor. He did not invite civilrights organizations to be part of the patriarch you and you have to be independent. We will not try to leave people vulnerable to violence. Moving in small groups that is the only way it will work. Once the naacp the and all the organizations come it is like a chance to replicate the success of selma the previous year. Host self there is did not die . Guest he was wounded. There was day misinterpretations the ap put out a bulletin that he died that caused even more hysteria but quickly that was dispelled. He recuperated through most of the march he was in new york. These people were marching in his name and he excepts that is occurring at the same time for those three weeks he is frustrated he is centered around him as individual with his idea for how to combat supremacy now getting Media Attention that meredith was concerned about. Part of what i like about this book are the personalities of reaching these steeped in history but besides meredith that are stoically carmichael Stokely Carmichael and martin mr. King. Guest there the three central characters. For carmichael he sees this as a unique opportunity as the chairman of sncc that is a progressive vanguard. Said reese started to question tuesday are as an organization. But what they see as a slow pace with the civilrights active voter rights act has passed and not enforced. They say it is on the books. Now they say they are reluctant. They dont care anymore about lobbying White America or appealing to the National Conscience but much more concerned developing leaders on a local scale. Theyre not defined by the idea of a mass march but when meredith is shot they recognize the opportunity because sncc has done the most organizing in mississippi so with some of the largest black communities where sncc has made its name with local connections. With that moving grassroots organizing as part of black power and carmichael but it is what catapults by the end of the march he is the heir to malcolm x. The voice of black radicalism as a charismatic speaker he has a gift to talk to local people and a connecting to so many different audiences whether in a harlem or the mississippi delta. He is charismatic and powerful and provocative. Almost like he makes the rhetorical point even when pushed and pushed almost cleverly stubborn with uplifting black people in not being seen with of certain allies. That is the idea of black power that Martin Luther king becomes of moral center. Without him it is not the march it is his name and presence that draws people both the local people sometimes people just want to see martin mr. King but it is also what draws more federal attention and national Media Attention and sncc realizes this march does not mean anything for the attention that we want to generate. King is constantly pushing multiple directions it is revealed it is morally powerful because he tries to articulate to people like Stokely Carmichael but crafted into a larger language of nonviolent action id integration of america and to do so with a rhetorical gifts to merge these messages in it is the burden by the end of the march he is worn down. But by this same token without him. Host why do they call it a mistake . It is to the end of the march as he has gone to extraordinary trials. The marchers had just gotten to philadelphia. June 24 june 21st exactly two years later the anniversary of the of murder of three civilrights workers. So to commemorate those murders and lead a demonstration they see this as a unique political opportunity and day ally with leadership. But they get less protection from the state police. Those who are supposed to be protecting them are the local police. Some had been directly involved or under federal investigation for those murders so it was not sympathetic Law Enforcement. So they are attacked by a mob. People throw things and hurled themselves commentary bombs, and people think it is gunshots. As they finish the rally people throw rocks. Eggs, one marcher has the epileptic seizure and they dont let of medical truck near him and they locked him. A stressful situation that could have descended into far worse but luckily they could march back to the black community before it got much worse. He said later that was the most feared he had never been. Then right after that he has to go to yazoo city back where the marchers had congregated. There was a large rally for black power. Some of the speakers from sncc or the armed selfdefense organization were using very provocative rhetoric and king was trying to pull it back. He gave a beautiful speech how they could not get their guns or molotov cocktails because he had a bigger version. But he was so worn down at that point to bring it underwrote everyone under his arm he wondered if he could still work with these organizations like sncc. Host what was the other dramatic tension or several moments during the march besides philadelphia . Guest the other major incidents of violence was a few days later in mississippi before the end of the march. A few days after the philadelphia march. King and others petitioned the federal government to the states of mississippi is adequately protecting us we need federal protection of u. S. Marshals, justice department, National Guard you name it. They were essentially ignored by president johnson. He had grown alienated from the Civilrights Movement you see urban riots, what, a controversy over a government report and there was day black backlash and you see groups like sncc sova johnson is increasingly kept his distance. So he refuses to have any more federal prisons. That gives the governor of mississippi to use Carte Blanche of violence he was using state police but now with the end he knows there is no federal intervention. They have made a point to set up the big tent on land of the black community. Black people pay taxes to. We have a right to use this land. But in many places the local authorities said they cannot do it any way. But the police let it happen so it would not escalate. But at this point it is close to the and there is 1,000 people participating. They come to the ball field of the Elementary School where they decided they would put the tents even though Police Arrested the indians grew. At first they let them do it then the huge contingent of cars of Highway Patrol supposedly that are protecting them now come out with riot gear and launch teargas. Not as crowd control to push people off but they are launching directly into the crowd to punish them. Then they moved their way in and hitting people with night sticks and pulling hair and kicking them it is absolute chaos. It is practically dark at that point it was as harrowing violence that existed within the movement but because it is dark and smoky there are no real Iconic Images it does not get the support of the federal government because even after that they say were sorry but we dont promise any more retribution to the state so they disappear from popular in every. Memory. Host that is fascinating bringing me back to the cover how images make history and what does not get lost. But first want to talk about white people. We know what you describe about Law Enforcement the culturally johnny cash, and jerry lee lewis, elvis is on the scene. What is going on at this time . Hour they responding to this particular march and the Civilrights Movement . Guest for the liberal rights it triggers another round of outrage of jim crow south seen as an example of violent retribution and people right to their congressman. Editorials in the newspaper condemning violence, they sympathize with James Meredith some of the documents talking about their own ideas asking for a vice there was this great liberal guilt. At least since the sitin has been a major news story over the past 56 years. It continues the trend but because of that because of the of what striate watts riots starting to develop as a buzzword that some whites are alienated that blacks are moving too fast it should not achieve that but it should slow down the that is the exact opposite what others say. There are plenty of white marchers to be part of the conscience with the Catholic Church or Jewish Americans and longtime activists. Those that was their own the experience for something day have to be a part of. It is impossible to characterize with a huge swath of people you see everything with a response to those that embrace the notion there are civil rights activists to say we have been fighting for black power all along. Others say were starting to do drift away from the ideals of the nonviolent action to bring them together. Stokely carmichael says integration is irrelevant they need to achieve power and strength. Then you have a growing voice of the new right they see the Movement Moving too fast expansion of liberal programs. The political mood that will help to elect nixon two years later just like what elected reagan to the governorship of california at the same time. Host fascinating glimpses of the mindset of the conservative right to allow the backlash. We deal with that with illegal aliens or obamacare to help elected nationally off the back of the order was racially driven backlash. Before we go to break what inspired you to write his break with all the episodes of post world war American History . Kits grew out of teaching. I have written books before a of russells of basketball player but not a civilrights political history but at the university of memphis the graduate seminars to be the perspectives to broaden the understanding what it was other than and Martin Luther king or one demonstration. By this same token there was not a book that was the narrative history that captured all these ideas. So i saw it as a great opportunity to tell a much broader story. It is narrowed to follow a march from a this do jackson but it shoots off in so many Different Directions that tells us what it was. But i saw that as a key way touche tell the story. A friend of mine called me from new york about seven years ago and said i want to read a book about civil rights. What should i read . It was a hard question. Biography, a textbook but no one book that did what i thought what the only person would want to read so this book is my answer to his question. Host that is brilliant. My favorite quotation is always write the book you would have liked to have read. We will be back. Host i want to ask you about the title down to the crossroads as a physical place but also symbolic in history. How does this march marked a historical crossroads . Guest of the march you could argue is a crossroads for the Civilrights Movement that closely still associated with the tenets of nonviolence and racial integration. Underneath that to with the grassroots organizers said the Civilrights Movement that put them in positions of power where they can lift themselves up. They are not necessarily the same thing. It is a crossroads with the slogan of black power it gives them a name and the idea to crystallize and black power is an outgrowth and rejecting some. It grows out of the Civilrights Movement that these are activists for blacks to achieve political power. It grows out of frustrations of the federal government with liberal allies to dont necessarily see them so sound the same page. But it also grows out of disenchantment in the rejection of violence as a strategy. But asserting their right to choose selfdefense to be seen as equal in society you should have the right to defend yourself also a rejection of integration working with parties. Stokely carmichael comes to the march having organized in alabama as the independent third party because the choices were not integrated into republican in democratic was White Supremacy already. So why integrate into a party that is hostile to your interest . He said organize your own party. Wherever there is black majority for the mississippi delta organize. Use that political power as the independent force. Host the chicken and the day here is the march with Stokely Carmichael this is a platform to amplify the black power message or he was so frustrated with the march that it was the message . Guest he came to the march with the message even with the slogan of black power. Soon after the shooting of meredith he goes back to sncc headquarters to tell the governing body why they should participate in the march. With his arguments it gives a platform to advertise our direction of black power and uses the slogan black power even before but he does not use it as a slogan. What do we want . Black power. What do we want . Black power. Sncc was organizing dating back to the 60s there were events organizers who said this is the best place to use a slogan and when black power is used in that way it immediately becomes a controversy you ask many africanamericans they remember that night. It to blew their blind. Their mind. It was a new direction a crossroads that it had a symbolic value the whole of the blues and robert jones sold his soul at the crossroads that is where you make choices. So you come to a fork in the road but a crossroads whatever choices you make have been during consequences traveling down that road. With the slogan of black power is on failed to travel down that road. Host what is the faith of black power as a slogan as the approach also . That is complicated because black power doesnt have a single definition it depends on the response of those too few black power. So for many liberals and conservatives phase of this working against what they had been fighting for. The black power has positive consequences in terms of political organizing will use the black officeholders or political power are occurring but that depends of the notion of black unity and black interests him people associate that with black power. Also in cultural terms it encompasses the a. D. Is to take pride in your heritage and culture and appearance and identity the notion that black is beautiful black history is the important aspect in its own right. There is no one legacy it shoots off cultural, political, positiv e, negative the unifying message but alienating a slogan for achievement but also with the liberal goals that means different things. Host absolutely. That is fascinating. One of the things that struck me about this book is the kinetic qualities the sense of the motion had to go about writing and researching the book . Guest eyes of the structure early. Is starets one place it moves and there are stories and it ends. It is like a biography. Then there are stories to tell so that i can see from the beginning that what developed is that with each chapter with a key instance was an opportunity to talk about another dimension of the broader civil rights. At 1. With the first Voter Registration i can talk about within mississippi what is the struggle the political dynamic but also was in black politics flows through the naacp that are more established you want to ally with the whites and the mississippi freedom democrats but running in the democratic primary as well. Its animates that discussion. There is a demonstration they put the American Flag on top of the statue of a confederate soldier they talk about the desecration. It gave the opportunity to talk about visions of the civil war they still an inmate in the different definitions shape how they see it as citizenship in america. When they get to the delta of black power has many meanings. When they get to jackson at the end, for god and store the largest demonstration in history at least 15,000 people and it is lost because the National Media talks about the divisions but people who participated it was an extraordinary moment. It gave the opportunity to talk about the seams as there is a dynamic quality moving further south. To get back to the question of how did i research. I had the luxury of Media Coverage was covered by local and National Papers international, a magazine, newspapers in Civil Rights Organizations keep papers and correspondence and records i could find those. Also personal papers. Also under surveillance. Fbi, mississippi Highway Patrol, in the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission which was an organization with the express purpose how to preserve racial segregation so i had publicrelations to present mississippi and a positive light to the tourist but also surveillance there was an informant on the march that was reporting back to the state of mississippi classified as informant tax. He she produced very detailed reports what was going on in meetings from civil rights leaders in the middle of the controversy. That was complex. In those officials tended to exaggerated makeup stuff but it is important to understand the ways it was watched. The last major aspect was talking to the people in the march i interviewed 100 people who were in for involved with that brought this was not adjusted National Story about political conflicts or ideas but physical participation of the marchers a coming of age the unique experience in for some tragic and disappointing to bring up the personal stories gave the extra layer. Host and to talk about the experiences just about everybody that i talked to was more than happy. Was a Veterans Organization those that still live in mississippi it is in the context of the longer experience and continues to the present day. Ins talks about how black power is something they worked for before the march budget inflated the National Story. As part of the civilrights Veterans Organization for those that agree with the majority with the classic liberal side it deflated what they were working on. Sometimes you should talk to this person so i got a chance to talk to regular people and it was a formative experience to meet Martin Luther king and Stokely Carmichael. It was an important impact blew they were that was the whole point in some ways to make you think what possibilities exist for the future. Host speaking of the future and time continuing what is your opinion on the major Civil Rights Movement to day . Guest the biggest one we have seen is the move for the lgbt quality. To talk a rather dramatic transformation if you told me 9095 that most of the American Population would see that as the implicit right that is obvious and should happen it would have blown our minds. The 90s may have been a radical notion to nationally legalized gay marriage. But it has not followed the same path of the Civilrights Movement because we live in a different era with popular culture. But think about the radical change of the notion of possibility. So that jumps out to compare and contrast. Host with other political issues around voting and structural inequality said you mention the lgbt movement, what has changed in the past and what lessons are cleaned from this march in particular . The movement for africanamerican and a quality in particular, it was most successful in two basic citizenships that destroyed the institution of jim crow and guaranteed the vote but king was talking about it was important for the Martin Luther king evolution with the issues of structural inequality. But he was ready to launch a Major Campaign in chicago where there is legal segregation but intermixed issues of race and class then he comes to mississippi was a personal connection with the poorest state in america. That deepens the understanding. He sees the march as the chance to create a conversation. That is a tragedy for him that the press does not pick up on that and does not carry it the way he wants. Some is the nature some is the black power sub is backlash but he could not shift that conversation. Those are issues of race and class with the criminal Justice System that i talk about to follow the main characters wear mississippi remains with a long road to freedom that merit is which use at the beginning and i talk about the law under rhode. The longer road. That the ties are still very strong. Host to be perfectly honest i did not care or dont care about your own ethnicity reading the book. With your expertise but i am sure you are worried or thinking about your own ethnicity did inform you living in the south or writing about the book . Guest interesting question. I am armenians of who i am moving to the south with the Smaller Community with those i had never met the are median before sometimes they ask where are you from . I would say boston. Where are you from . Why i was doing when i was doing. That that had fed into my interest of africanAmerican History i think for two reasons. Its dancers the fundamental questions. Because what it means to be in american. With the Civilrights Movement i consider myself the storyteller. I think it provides a of a dimension that i think is fascinating that i want to work with. Host setting is the interesting figuring do people ask you that . Sometimes more as a writer but less as said teacher but with the strong africanAmerican Population i am curious or they are curious because they did not understand why would you want to teach that . It is not your history by explain it is everyones history as america because we shape the world. I came at a at it from that brodeur narrative. It is not the only way to right history by any means it is just my way. Host with informing your perspective what would you recommend everyone reading that is truly provocative and memorable . Guest i can focus on the civilrights but if you are interested in this narrative history was more expansive works there is a three volume history from taylor branch. Those are stories the subtitle is america in the king years. It is a much broader story and he does so wonderful job of painting of a broad sweep of Human History to the Civilrights Movement. For academic historians say appreciate branchs work but also try to move pushed the movement in Different Directions. So one is Charles Payne and one is called detmer. That was civilrights in mississippi. When you tell that story king is not the main story so the highlights of a longer tradition dating back to the 30s to talk about the aspect of grassroots and how that changes with the local people. And the other book is from Charles Payne that is much more analytical by the social change have been. How does organizing work if he tries to answer the question from the more in political standpoint. How do you get people to register . With making connections on a family the level. To highlight the importance of women. The media focuses on the leaders Martin Luther king, Stokely Carmichael but what about on the ground . Who are the people organizing the mass meetings , as the glue of the movement . These historians hope to highlight that. So what i wrote with down to the crossroads trying to merge the approach to tell the story within old civilrights framework with Martin Luther king with of mass march but to incorporate the new civilrights history. How women are important and how black power is much more complicated and positive than the previous historians so pineal joseph one of his books called waiting to the midnight hour. He gets us to see black power with in the number of others but it is in a new frame to pushes us jews think of positive and uplifting aspects. Host can you speak in more detail of womens roles in the south in responding to news of movement and in particular fight to win an end . Guest with grassroots organizing looking at the key roles of africanamerican women. How do you get people involved . Into a mass meeting. Who is the backbone of the church . It is an end. Who makes other of failing members get involved to is the center . So women becomes the key connectors as a social the word that exist. I tried to talk a little bit about that with white women on the march rightabout the time because at the same time the movement brings to the for what they see gender inequality. Not how they are getting hit on all the time. If you bring up the story of blackmail it will escalate into a scandal but theyre Holding Meetings that this generation of feminists but for black women it tends to be more complicated. Many of them because of feminist in a different time under different circumstances. But at the same time intertwined. I want to revisit the question is that i ask you are a historian certainly not new to you but beginning and launching into this particular book what did you learn that you did not expect . What weve most surprised after finishing the book . All lots of things. [laughter] there are too great mysteries. The mystery i was never able to uncover one wuzzy identity of informant x that they were paid to report back to the happenings of the civil rights meetings. I dont know who it was it would be interesting but it is impossible. But the other mystery involves the motive of the man who shot James Meredith. At the time early 40s, hardworking and when he shoots James Meredith people assume he is another white supremacist and figured he is associated with the klan. As a man full of hate. But they were confused as to why he did it he was not racial liberal but never said anything, no known connection to any organization. His motives are a mystery. He is still alive. I tried to call him and set up interviews and he lives in the same house she lived in at the time and has never revealed his motive as to why he shot James Meredith. As an interesting political story, when meredith was shot, a lot of people in the movement figured it was a conspiracy the police were in on it that he could walk out of the woods then walk back and the only arrested him later. That was probably not the case it was not in their interest to shoot James Meredith. I dont think that is true but white southerners think there is a conspiracy as well. They think somebody in the Civil Rights Movement paid him, he is not even from mississippi they paid to the outsider to wound him that is why they used birdshot then there would be a big story to turn into a Great National march. That does not make sense either because meredith knew it was the one man march so neither holds ground but these stories that a white southerners thought it was a conspiracy against them. I find it absolutely fascinating. Host wrapping up what would you like their readers to know about the book . Guest as a way to tell a broader story by telling a specific dramatic story. It occurs over three weeks. It is a classic story but this book tries to expand it to shoot off in Different Directions to see if you read one book i hope they might consider. Host it was connected, colorful, well detailed and researched and it just made the main characters pop with issues that we deal with today but thank you for your time. Guest i appreciate it. What is the situation in on the ground . Who slates whom and how was it going . It is extremely complex and it is a mess. But the increasingly confrontational nature of the double battle that you have actual shooting battles between old dresses lamas faction some associated with al qaeda and the three syrian army brings an enormous quality to the claims that you hear are bandied about rather cavalier that is the common view that the International Community cannot do anything because the al qaeda takes over. It is either aside or al qaeda. Also the regime narrative from day number one when it was entirely false nonviolent, non sectarian that represented a real crosssection as a suit syrian society. Look at the uprising there were many christians involved. Kurds, a secularist common now aside at that time from day number one this is the extremist al qaeda foreign conspiracy. It was wrong then that he intentionally made it less wrong every day partly by opening his jails to let those islamist out behind bars onto the streets. Host peniel joseph, who is this . He was born on june 24, 1941 in trinidad. He is early going to become a watershed iconic activist of the civil rights and black power