Transcripts For CSPAN2 Booknotes 20140322

Watergate hearings, the impeachment hearings and finally his departure from the white house. And thenit was too passionate a time to use the images right away for any major purpose. I had done it as a historic document primarily. And so i had to wait andwhich i did, until about three years ago, and at which time i took the negatives out of storage, where i had them, and produced about 1,000 work prints and edited them. And now, 25 years later, the book is published, and there is an exhibition at the same time at the National Museum of american history. Cspan where does this photo come from . Guest this is in the oval office. It was one of the earlier photographs that i did during his presidency. He just sat in the chair, and the only thing you could hear werewas the rustling of the pages as he turned them. I used a very quiet camera, whichwhich i like to use. Its like an m camera, which doesnt make the sound that aa largethat a single lens reflex does. I didnt want to get thrown out. I didnt want to be distractdistracting him. Cspan how long have you been a photographer . Guest well, i was an amateurii bought my first camera andand developing set when i was 12 years old, and i never intended to be a photographer. I graduated an architect, but i was the editor and photographer for the yearbook at Catholic University here in washington, and life magazine offered me a job as a result of that. So since 1950, which is almost 50 years, i have been a professional photographer. Cspan ive got the book in my hands. And richard hall, our photographer, is over my shoulder, as we continue to look at these photos. Heres one in the cabinet room, and you can see president nixon there in the middle with mel laird on one side and william rogers, the secretary of state, on the other. Remember when you took this . Guest that was done probably in december ofnovember or december of 1970. Nixon had thethe reputation in the press for not using his cabinet the way others did. He was relying a lot on his aides, they said. And it was very important for me, when i knew there a Cabinet Meeting, that i photograph a Cabinet Meeting so that i could show that he did, in fact, use his cabinet. Cspan when we pull back on this, you can see, as we went in close on the shot, Daniel Patrick moynihan sitting at the table. Guest a Young Patrick moynihan. He was in the president s cabinet, and though a liberal democrat, it just showed the range thatthat nixon used to get the members of his cabinet and their different political beliefs. Cspan do you know these people personally . Guest no. I nknew one or two of them very casually. But i got to know some of the aides to the president while doing the book. Cspan whats yourwhen you approach photography, what arewhat are your couple of things that you always do . Whats yourwhat kind of camera do you use . Guest i use 35mm primarily, and for photojournalism, that is thethethe main instrument now. I used, for those that are interested, a trix film for this, and i had the same exposure generally all the way through the book. When i do a photograph, i dont like to just do aa shallow andand onedimensional image. I like to get as much information into the photograph as i can. The background becomes just as important to me as thethe foreground or the subject thatas the main focus of it. So that the viewer can look at the picture and roam over it and see whatever it is they would look to see, besides thethe main focus of the photograph. Cspan what was your relationship with Richard Nixon . Guest i was the photographerithatthat got access because of the work that i had done on a prior book on washington, which was my first book. I went to see herb klein, who was his director of communications, and proposed doing the book on the nixon white house. And that was approved after six months, and it was because of that that i found myself outside the oval office a lot of times, but inside the oval office also. Cspan and this photograph shows golda meir and yitzhak rabin. Guest rabin, yes. Andand it was ayou know, thethe middle east figures very heavily in american politics, and any time one of the chiefs of state would come, thethe white house and the rest of the establishment gave them special attention. It was interesting inin that particular instance that the president said to golda meir that she and he had the sameone thing in common; they both had jews as their foreign minister. And she said, yes, but mine speaks english. cspan and then over on the next page, and its a full lead in the book, is andrey gromyko. And what was the timing on this shot . Guest this was in octoberi think october 22nd, 1970. The reason that date stays with me is i read in haldemans book, ends of power, that kissinger first and then the president became very concerned that the russians were building a sub base in cuba. And he brought in gromyko and told him whatever he needed to, and the next thing you knew, the sub base was ended in its construction and it didnt continue. And i lookedand that, he said, happened on october 22nd. I looked on my notes, and the date that i did this picture, and it was october 22nd. Very interesting to me that it had such a historic significance. Cspan did you get a sense that Richard Nixon knew you were around all the time . Guest yes and no, because he ignored the fact that i was there. He continued to do what he was doing. And on one occasion secretary of state rogers was with him, and he became uneasy thwith the fact that he noticed that i was there and i was photographing. And the president said, dont worry about him. Hes an artist. and its the first time i knew what it is the president thought of me, and the fact obviously he was aware that i would be in a room, but he ignored me. Cspan chuck colson and murray chotiner. Guest the two men that the press called the president s hatchet men. i didnt have any problems with either one of them when i had to photograph them. They were very cooperative, and they went on with their conversations and ignored me. It was only later thatthat i saw another side to colson. Cspan when did you see that . Guest when i was photographing the committee to reelect the president. It was about a week or 10 days after the breakin at watergate. Course i hadnt known that they were involved, though the press was speculating on it. And while doing thisthis coverage, jeb magruder was leaving the office, and i said, you know, where are you going . because i had this kind of access while i was covering them. And he said i washe was going to eob and see chuck colson. I said, do you mind if i come along and photograph . and he said, no, come on along. and we appeared there at the door, and colson looked at me with jeb, and he just went ballistic. He did not appreciate the fact that jeb had brought me there. And henow thatmind you, the watergate had happened 10 days before, and the last thing in the world im sure he wanted to see was a photographer withwith jeb, when they had to talk about matters that maybe referred to it. I mean, i have no way of knowing, but i can just speculate. But jeb convinced him to let me stay for a little while, and then i would leave, which is how i did it. I mean, ii got my photographs and left. And it was only later that i realized how significant that must have been, that time frame. Cspan where did you get this picture of spiro agnew . Guest we werei was on the campaign trail with him in 1970 andas part of this first coverage of the first term, and this was done in the holiday innthe president ial suite of the holiday inn in wichita, kansas. He had spoken mainly toto the large crowds that gathered for his speaking, and he used to make a lot of expressionsor use expressions and say things that the press liked to pick up on and make a lot out of. But i wanted to get him in a quiet moment because the nthe spiro agnew that i had known back in washington, when i had done coverage of him andand privately, was a quiet man. I wanted to get that. Cspan on the opposite page is whos someone very much in the public spotlight right now, patrick j. Buchanan. Guest Patrick Buchanan was with spiro agnew on that same trip, and he was a speechwriter in the white house. And he obviously was involved in all these things thatthat agnew got the reputation for saying. And i liked Patrick Buchanan. He was always fun to be around and never seemed to mind my being there, and i did photograph him on a number of occasions. Cspan and then theres a photo down below of the family. Guest after thethe campaign was over and the election was happening this particular day, and they were in this suitei think it was the washington hilton. And i asked if i could go up while they were watching the returns, and they allowed me to do that. And so this was agnew, his wife, bryce harlow, Patrick Buchanan, all watching the results. Some they were happy with, some they were not so happy with. Cspan whats the toughest thing about being a photographer . Guest getting access. Once you have access, then you can operate. Technically, the most difficult thing is lighting. Those are the two things. But if you get access, then manyyou can make most anything happen. Cspan when did you do this one with gerry ford . Guest this was also done in 1970. Thecongressman ford had come for a meeting for some reason, and i was in the office. These are not press opportunities, mind you. Thesethesethese were photographs done, as we say, fromfromfrom the closet or as a fly on the wall. And, of course, this picture took on a lot more meaning four years later when the roles were changed radically. Cspan have you ever done a book like this before . Guest no. Ive done 11 other books. Ive done a book on the navy, and ive done them on the capitol and supreme court. But this is the only photojournalistic book thats a pure photojournalistic book that ive done. Cspan heres a doublepage photograph; John Ehrlichman in the center, other aides off to the left there. The second man on the left, peter flanigan. Where is this . Guest this is ini believe its called the roosevelt room in the white house. I got to get access by virtue of getting to know ehrlichman and haldeman, photographing them privately in their offices and with their aides. And i was told that i could come to this meeting at 7 00 in the morning and i would be able to get some photographs. Well, i appeared at the gate. Of course, the guards had to do an awful lot of double checking to find out why a photographer was at the northgate at 7 00 in the morning. But they finally gave me access, and i went in and there was this meeting in full swing. And thethe clock, i still remember, saidwhen i did this picture, though its been cropped out of the photographquarter to 8. This was thethe earlier meeting. Their meeting then went on at 8 00. But this was a 7 00 meeting. Cspan all men. Guest all men. Cspan except for this photo you have of somebody thats inin the public spotlight today. Guest diane sawyer. Iyou spent an awful lot of time in the press room waiting for somebody to tell me that i could get access to somebodys office or into the oval office. And so i would come every morning early, just like a regular job, and i had my cameras in a locker in the basement, and i would bring them up and just, you know, spend a lot of time. And i looked and there was this young lady sitting there outside of zieglars office, and she was there every day. And i just thought, all right, i would squeeze off an image or two just for the record, and never realizing that she would become more famous than just about everybody i was photographing in the white house, except maybe the president , in due course. Cspan what was her job . Guest she was a secretary for ron zieglar or a receptionist for him. And she had one of those early entry jobs, i guess, in the white house. Cspan another familiar figure is right below her. Guest bill safire. This was at ahe was, again, one of thehe was the president nixon had three speechwriters buchananpat buchanan and bill safire and price. Cspan ray price. Guest ray price. And safire i had photographed in his other job. Here is what they call the plans committee, or alsoor also the imagemakers, if you wilwould. It was in herb kleins office every severy saturday or whatever saturday they called it, and they dealt with all the problems that the president had negatively with the press and they tried toto see how they could steer things positively in the way that the press was rereporting him. And im sure this is the room and that was the meeting that i was approved to do my project. Cspan jeb magruder on the right. Dwight chapin next to him. Lyn nofziger there on the couch. Herb klein at the back. Guest this is the plans committee, the imagemaker that i had just spoken about. And its interesting that ron zieglar is not in the picture. He would come briefly and then leave. And herb klein alluded to this in his book, thatbut these were the men that had to deal with negative reporting and then create the positive stories when they could. Cspan jeb magruder and Dwight Chapin went to jail. What was your reaction when that happened . Guest i felt kind of sorry for them. Ii liked them both. Theythey werei got to know them personally because we were involved with each other for such a long period of time. And jebs wife and my wife were classmates in college. And so i felt very sorry whenwhen all the things went negatively for them. Cspan john connally. Guest i liked john connally. I thought he had a great president ial demeanor about him, and i think president nixon did too. Cspan where did you photograph these two together . Guest this was donethis is one of the few press photographs that i did. It was in the press room of the white house when president nixon introduced connally to the press corps as his new secretary of the treasury. And thatthat, i believe, was in 1970. And from that point on, connally did increase in stature, until things turned the other way. Cspan all along, youre shooting asa at 400. Guest thats right. And it was all handheld, no tripod. And thethe lighting in the white house waswas my best friend because it was consistent throughout. It was 160s at f4 and all you had to do was find your angle, focus and shoot. Cspan heres the oval office again, the president with his back to us. Mike mansfield on the right, russell long on the couch; hugh scott, ron zieglar in the back behind the couch there; senator moynihan, John Ehrlichman; and then over towell, well get there in a momentover on the left is Elliot Richardson and the father of the senator from utah, bob bennett. Thats wallace bennett. Guest right. Cspan you remember this day . Guest i do. The president , as you know, was in the house and the senate both, and one of the things he did as president was to maintain these relations with the memberswithwith the senate and the house members on the hill. He would go up there, and id photograph them there having lunch or breakfast with them. And he would invite them down and have these sessions in the oval office, and then that was why i was able toto be allowed in and photograph during this meeting. Cspan when did you have the best time . When did you enjoy it the most . When did you feel like you were doing something that was unusual . Guest it wasit was always on my mind how important what i was doing was. I dont know if you would say best time. It was very rewarding to me once i finally started having access into the oval office, having waited about six months before it came to that point. But i knew when i started that what i was going to be doing was going to be historic because the president and the white house did not allow photographers in, like johnson and kennedy had. And thethe magazines that i worked for in new york also were not interested in stories on the nixon administration, for whatever reasons. I dont know. And so i knew that there would be a lack of photographic reportage of this administration, and that was the main reason why i approached them in the first place. I had wanted to do a book, in my minds eye forifif it ever came up, on the executive branch of government and how it worked. And so it seemed like with this administration, which would have precious little photography done of it, that would be an ideal administration to do a book on the executive branch of government. Cspan robert pierpoint, helen thomas and Henry Kissinger where was this picture taken . Guest this was on air force one. You were selected, if you were a member of the press, to go on air force one if you were in good stead and you had theyour turn came up. If you did anything negatively during the nixon administration, you did not get on another air force one trip right away, if ever. But while youre on there, the president would have his key aides on board with him because they would be going from place to place. And so they would come back, and the press would have opportunities to have these behindthescenes insights into matters that they would not know about otherwise. Cspan on the next pageand im going to move it over so that we can see itis a photograph you took from an airplane. What kind of an airplane . Guest this was on the president sthe president ial helicopter. I had photographed president nixon at san clemente, and he had asked me at the time if there was anything elsehow the book project was going and what else he might do to help me. And i told him, yes, id like to have more private access to him and opportunities with him and in the oval office. And that next morning, when he was leaving, i was told thatto report to the airfield, and i wouldi was allowed onto the president ial helicopter. It was a very interesting ride. Cspan heres a naval aide on the same helicopter as him, and rosemary woods sitting next to him, and then tricia nixon. It gets kind of crowded in there . Guest yes, i would say so, but there certainly was ample room. It was interesting to me how the president was solitary through the entire thing. He didnt speak to anyone. Except when commander larson brought some papers to him, he mighthe said something. But other than that, he was lost in his own thoughts. Hehe continually worked. He was facing mrs. Nixon. She was sitting in the chair to his right from this image. And i was just amazed at how he was really thethethethe loneliest man in the white house, or in this case, in the history cause he kept to his own thoughts. Andand hehe did a lot of pondering and a lot of notetaking as he developed whatever it iswas important to him at the time. Cspan this is a photo that you have on the cover. Was that taken the same time . Guest this was. Andand that was a very valuable helicopter ride for me cause i not only got the overall interior of the plane, but i got this photograph that, to me, says more about thetheaa person, the way they think, how you can get insights into them by the expression on their face. A persons face is justyou know, it changes radically, depending on what theyre thinking or who theyre talking to. And whatever he had on his mind, it reflected this intense, pensive expression thatthat is Strong Enough that it was on the cover. Cspan do you havei know these are terrible questions, but do you have a favorite photo in here . Guest no, i dont believe so. Its kind of like, do you have a favorite child . theyretheyrethey all are very important and that collectively is where the important statement is made. Cspan whats the circumstances here . Guest i wasii went out with the president in january of 71 when he went with his staff cause the white house went with him. Cspan to san clemente . Guest to san clemente. And i wei was indoing another coverage at the time for mccalls magazine on mrs. Nixon. And so while i was there in the house, iiyou know, they were going to go on the beach, and i asked if i could go along and do some photography. And they said yes. And it was drizzling, and so mrs. Nixon had on a raincoat and aand a scarf, andand they had this umbrella. And it was very warmvery warm view of the president and the first ladys relationship that most people, obviously, were not aware happened. Cspan where was this taken . Guest this was also at san clemente. When i had finished the beach shot and i had done some pictures inside the house, and then he asked me if i would do a photograph of him and the first lady on this bench that overlooked the pacific ocean, because he said it was their favorite bench and they spent a lot of time there together, so it had a lot of meaning to them. And now, to me, it also has a lot of meaning. Cspan what did you think of both of them . Guest i liked them both. Ii did not see thethe negative president thatthat others continually reported on when i was covering him. He was always polite when i was around. He never, ever got angry with me andas i had with johnson. I mean, whenever i photographed president johnson under thesimilar circumstances, i dont know why, whether it was me or whether itit was his way of saying, thank you. You can leave now, but he would always get rather angry about why i was there, and he needed his office back or something to that effect. Nixon never did that to me. Mrs. Nixon waswas equeveven more generous to me when i had to photograph her privately. And this was aa very memorable time for me. This is upstairs. This image was done upstairs in the private quarters of the family, and she was being interviewed by a reporter at the time. And at one point, thethe reporter had said something or asked her a question that made her laugh. And at another time she got very sad and tears came to her eyes, when she was asked what the saddest time was of her life being the first lady. And she had said howwhen nixon had lost the election in 60, and all those people that had worked so hard on the president s behalf having been so disappointed. And so iyou know, that stayed with me, andandand it has come back to me many times since then because of what happened even later that was even more traumatic. Cspan this picture . Guest this was a state dinner. As all president s, nixon had toto be host to chiefs of state from other countries. And they were, to me, a very shy couple. And he would lookas you saw on the beach photograph and even here, somehow there was a certain awkwardness about the way hehe carried himself that always came through, and people identified it as aa negative characteristic. But i think he was just basically shy, as was she. He had, at the first state dinner, spilled some soup on his vest of his white tietuxedo. And from that point on, haldeman said in his book, ends of power, there were neversoup was never served again in the state dining room. Cspan Robert Haldeman . Guest now you asked me earlier about what my feelings were about being there and how i felt about covering the white house. Obviously not only i, inin my outside role, but also haldeman and his inside role knew this was a Historic Place to be. And covering it waswas visually, for me and for haldemanwas aaa way we expressed ourselves. He liked the small movie camera. I dont whats happened to all the film he shot because he was shooting all the time. And i was on the president s balcony looking down at the arrival of the chief of state from england, and i saw him there and i photographed him atat work. Cspan on the next page. Guest i wasthethe key thing, as i said earlier, isis getting access. I was in kissingers office waiting to be able to photograph him with whatever he was going to be doing in his office and allowing me in. And he came outand this was the young lady that worked in the outside office, and he justaffectionately just stroked her head, andand captured the picture. And ive always thought that this was another side ofof kissinger thatthat i got that was a little different. Cspan this the first time this has ever been published . Guest no. Its been published before. Thats one of the few that was. Cspan how many photos are there in the book . Guest theres a hundredi think theres 134 or 45, Something Like that. Ii would say maybe no more than 15 have been published before. The majority of the pictures in here have never ever been either exhibited oror printed. Cspan the tone of the book changes about right here. Guest yes. This is the door into watergate that was taped open twice, and that the guard then called the police, and the burglars were alestarrested, and i went back to watergate afterthethe watergate buildingafter i realized howthat there was this door. I went and found out where the door was, and i was photographing it when this custodian went through, which seemed very significant to me in light of the fact that thats how it all happened, and so this was the picture thatthat was critical for me for the next section of photographs that i did that are in the book. Cspan 73, butand 74so the time changed on this. Were you still allowed to go inside at thatthose years . Guest inside where . Cspan inside the white house . Guest oh, yes. I had press credentials that i still have, and that ii can go into any event that the regular press can go into. Cspan butbut did you have special access after thehowhow long did you have special access to the president . Guest oh, for two years. Foractually, for nine months that spanned the1970 and 1971. But i had finished this first project, which was inside the white house. Allan drury wrote the text for a book called courage and hesitation that was published. Thea year later, when the committee to reelect the president was formed, became the next important section that i photographed. Cspan and heres a picture of rob odle and one of the workers on the committee to reelect the president , rob odle there on the left. When was this taken . Guest this was taken in 1972. It wasrob odle was in charge of personnel, and he knew everybodys name andandthat worked there, and unintelligible their jobs, andas he still doesi have seen him recently, too. And he was a nice, pleasant fellow that got caught up in all of this, likeyou know, like everybody else did inadvertently, never was part of anything, but somehow all of this affected their lives rather significantly. Cspan but he didnthe wasnt convicted of anything. Guest no, no. But he did appear before the watergate committee. Cspan now heres some pictures ofof famous children jack ford on the left, and Harry Haldeman on the right. Where did you take this . Guest this was a back room at the committee to reelect the president , where all these interns that worked with theworked for the committee to reelect the president had theirtheir location where they worked. And it was interesting how these children of these famous politiciansor people in political officewere already starting into the political world. Cspan and you have jan erlichman there on the left, Harry Haldeman in the backyou cant see him right now. Youll see him justright over there. Guest yeah. Cspan and then you have peter erlichman, whos looking, i believe, over jan erlichmans shoulder there, behind him. Anybody else you recognize . Guest no. Ithethethere was one of them had a birthday, andand so they all hathey had this cake, and they werethey were there to wish that person a happy birthday and celebrate. And its interesting to me now, in light of what had already happenedwatergate had already happenedthis picture was done now maybe about three or four weeks later, and how these young people had no idea, as i didnt, of what probably was happening onin other rooms not too far away from them, as theythe concern with watergate breakin obviously got deeper and deeper. Cspan you have a picture here of a shredder. Is there a reason . Guest yes. There was some report in the paper, when i was covering, that there was a lot of shredding going in, andand there was a shredding machine, and so i went around and opened doors, and then there was the shredder, and there were the people using it, and iand just nodded, andandand indicated that i was going to do some photographs, and they just went on with what they were doing, and i just clicked off a few exposures, andand that wasthat became very significant asas matters have since developed. Cspan now looking at this picture, thethe longer i looked at it, the more people i discovered. This was january of 1973, and on the screen, of course, is the president and the Vice President , but if you look back in the audiencehave you ever looked at this verealvery closely . I assume you have. You have. Guest its very interesting, isnt it . Yes. Cspan well, you go back, and youre going to seetheres j. Willard marriott, right there in the middle, whos the Marriott Hotel chain, and as you keep going back, you see herb klein there. Pretty soon theres Ronald Reagan, and right up above Ronald Reagan is jimmy carter. Guest and if you will lookif you will now move the camera further over to the left on that picture, all the way over, get as far as you can, get to the other side, and get right to the edge of the picture in the bottom row, and rightoopslet me seecanyeah, there, therethere is a half a face above. Cspan yes. Guest . Oh, what was his namesecretary of defense. Cspan cap weinberger. Guest yes. Right above him, and thats bush, president well, at the time, he was the head of the cia, but unfortunately it was cropped off, and i didnt catch it until too late. In the exhibition you see his full face. And it looks quite strange to see the future president bush and the future president reagan while president nixon was delivering his inaugural address. Cspan and the man in the glasses there is john scali. Guest yeah. Cspan . Here at abc and then became. Guest yeah. Cspan . Un ambassador. Where did you take this picture from . Guest there was a press stand set up in front of the inaugural stand. Thats the way they did things. They dontthis is on the east side of the White Housethey dont have the inaugurations there anymore. And so this was done from there, and i used telephoto and wideangle lenses in order to get close up, or to get wide images. Cspan you said east side of the white house. you meant east side of the capitol. Guest iim sorryof the capitolim sorry. Yes. Cspan how didhow did the mood change when watergate startedhearings started . Guest i think thethe white house became more under siege all the time, andand every day something was revealed thatthat was unknown as the witnesses came one by one, and i think this was the most important show inin america, if not in the world, at the time. Cspan on the screen on the far right is james hamilton, who was a counsel then to the democrats, but then inpopped up during the whitewater hearings as a counsel, i believe, to the clinton side; sam dash, therewho worked for sam ervinwho also worked for ken starr. And then sam ervin, the senator from north carolinalook at the hands. Guest they wethey were gnarled and arthritic, and its just a beautifulyou know, expression of age in that hand, but iyouhe must have suffered greatly from it, because its not the kind of hand thatthat was kind to you. Cspan and off to the left, senator howard baker. Did you have any relationship with any of these people . Guest i did know howard bakerwewe were next to each other at aat a dinner for the white house awards one year. He was a photographer, he used leicas, the same as i did, and hed even published a book of his pictures, so we had that one thing in common. Cspan and heres a photograph of james mccord, but with him is terry lenzer, who also. Guest also figured. Cspan . Popped up working for, i believe, the democrats or somebody during thedoing sec. Guest he was doing research for thefor the white house ononinvestigative information that might have been negative, things that they could use to sort of counteract all that was happening to clinton. Cspan but in those days, who did he work for . Guest he was working for the committee, thethe watergate committee, and he was one of theon the proseca cution Prosecutors Team there. Cspan this is aa familiar figure. Guest oh, yeswere seeing jack germond from the baltimore sun, and i see him on saturday nights very often, andbut this is a young jack, and he was there every day. I can spot him inin many of my photographs of the different people that i photographed as time went on. Cspan but on the next page are people that i assume are near and dear to your heart. Who are these folks . Guest this is thethe press corps. Most of these people covering the watergate hearings as permanent members of the press corps were also members of the White House Press corps. Cspan these are all photographers. Guest theyre all photographers, andand half of them now have gone to that great big photo assignment in the sky, but 25 years ago, this was a tough bunch of guys. Theythey knew their business, and if you were an outoftown photographer, youyou knew it right away, because they stuck together and they cooperated with each other. Cspan whos on the screen right there . Guest thats frank canseleri on the left, who worked for ap at the time, and i cant remember the name of the fellow on the right, but iithey were aroundthey were both regulars. But ythey knewyou knew when a good moment was happening with the witnesses, because all these cameras started clicking at the same time, and made a largeernoise, but they were especially intrigued with maureen dean, who was a very beautiful lady. Thats Wally Mcnamee in the back; he worked for the Washington Post at the time. Cspan in the center right there. Guest yes. Cspan . With the moustache . Guest andyes. And then he went on to be with Newsweek Magazine and distinguished himself. Hes won many, many awards in the white house annual competition. Cspan how do photographers distinguish themselves, you know, aagainst their competition . Guest well, you have to shop your angle. You know, every photographer has his own way of seeing, and you have to get into a position so that you can have the opportunity to do that. When youre doing a massa photo op, as it werewith the press, itsits tough. If youre young, you never get to the front. The oldtimers know how to maneuver waytheir way to the front. It is very competitive, and they all, you know, have similar pictures. I like to get away as aa feature type photographer, or as a photojournalist i like to photograph for the long term, and so thats why i even photograph photographers, as well as just the subjects they photograph. Cspan whos this . Guest this is maureen dean, the wife of john dean, who waswho figured heavily in the watergate hearings thisand thatthe discovery that the president had been engaged in a coverup. She was a recent bride of his, and was there every day, and there was an awful lot of kodak film used photographing her, because she came cameraready, and she was always dressed very well and impeccably, and she made a good subject cspan back a couple pages before thatwell, first of all, theres Joseph Montoya on the right, senator from new mexico, who was on the committee, and senator dan inouye of hawaiibut over here is another, besides ed gurney, the senator from florida, on the leftwhos the fellow on the right . Guest thats now senator Fred Thompson from tennessee. He was young, he was in his early 30s, and he was deputyor assistant to howard baker, the minority counsel at the time. He went on toto distinguish himself in hollywood, and then made that propel himself into being senator, now, from tennessee. Cspan any of the characters that youre photographing during the watergate thing become memorable to you, besides maureen dean that you mentioned. Guest well. Cspan . From a photographic standpoint . Guest diane sawyer, of course, asas we went through, but in the watergate hearings theytheya lot of the people were people we all know, that are regulars of members of the press corps, and there would be mary mcgrory and a lot of the people thatthat are still around fwriting columns, andand doing their projects. This is john lennon and his wife, was ityoko ono, who came to the hearings as spectators, and they were just like everybody else asas part of thethe large group that was in the back of the room, and ii saw them back there and and i went and got a photograph. Cspan and whos this . Guest these are spectators. Now youif you look at the faces, you saw america, you saw the faces from all across the country coming. They saw it on television, and i guess a lot of them wanted toto be there themselves and to see this thing that was a part of the american process. And theyeverybody knew the historic significance of what was happening at watergate hearings. You dont have a president beingin his administration being investigated, and then on television every day, ininmany times in ones lifetime. Cspan some more familiar faces. You have this photo here of . Guest this is. Cspan lesley stahl. Guest lesley stahl from cbs. I see her often on 60 minutes now. This was aa press briefing by sam dash, and there is bernstein next to sam dash, and all these people are members of the press, and sam dash is what is called in the press a source. Cspan you got miles benson here. Guest hes that one, yeah. Cspan . And bob jackson. Guest right. Theyre from the los angeles times. Cspan . Probably from the la times. Guest yes. Cspan . And josh darsen over at the far right. Guest uhhuh, thats from. unintelligible . Cspan then on the next page over, a man who is no longer with us, doug kiker. Guest yes. Cspan . There on the left, and do you know the gentleman on the right . Guest no. Ive tried to find out who he was. I sent the picture to a lot of people, and imim sure ill now find out, after it gets this exposure, but i didnt know at the time. Cspan and whos this man . Guest this is. Cspan norman mailer. Guest . Norman mailer. Im sorry. Cspan its easier for me; ii can read it. Guest but you can see the headline that hes reading. Well, he came doand hes doing his research here, but he wasyou know, this was the show to see. This wasyouyou had to come, if you could, and be part of theof the watergate hearings, and know that you witnessed history. And im sure that norman mailer, as busy as he is, as important as he is, knew the significance of these hearings for historical reasons. Cspan a couple quick technical questions. You say you use a leica . Always a leica . Guest yes. Cspan any particular kind . I mean. Guest i use twotwo different bodies. I always have. One is the m body, which is a rangefinder camera. It does not have a mirror that makes a lot of noise. Its very quiet, and i used it a lot in the oval office or in any office that i photograph, because if itsifhow quiet it is. I also use thewhat is called the r series, which is a rawhich is a single lens reflex. It has a mirror that clicks out of the way, makes a sound, but i like to use them both, because the one i can use with telephoto lenses very well. The wideangle lenses are difficult to photograph with the r, and with the m, you can focus very easily, and i like the m camerai like the m and i like the 21 millimeter, which is a wideangle, because it gets, for me, a wide environmental shot that gives a lot of information, and i like to shoot that way. Cspan you move over to the house side, and you have this big photograph right here of the house, with the president right in for his state of the Union Message on january the 30th, 1974. A lot oflot of faces in the background; its hard for me to drop what im doing, but you have. Guest yeah. Cspan . Stuart symington at the very back, with the white hair, hiram fong from hawaii, john stennis from mississippi. Guest its amazing how Many Democrats are in the photograph, and all of them smiling at the president , and now this is betweennow mind you, this is between the watergate hearings and the impeachment hearings, so the president , in this particular january of 1944 was already in very deep trouble. Cspan where are you when you take a photo like this . Guest up in the balcony of the sthis is in the house chamber, and during the state of the union, the presss is allowed in, and i was up in the balcony, and as he came in, i just tracked him with my telephoto lens. Cspan this is a photo, twopage spread, july 74, and this is the committee. Guest mm. Cspan . And look whos on the committee. Guest yeah. Cspan lets go in tight on thatrichard hall, our cameraman, right behind me, is looking at. Guest representative lott, at the time, now senator lott. He was on the committee as aas a republican, and it is interesting that heyou know, hei also photographed him being interviewed by sam donaldson, another person that was young at the time and has gone on to become much more. Cspan look who sits next to him here on this committee, on the left. Guest that wasthat iis mr. Cohen, who was also on the Impeachment Committee and is now secretary of defense. Cspan if you go down the list, you see caldwell butler, whos no longer in the congress, larry hogan, who went on to run for governor of maryland, wayne owens, the congressman from utah, and liz holtzman. Guest right. Uhhuh. Cspan anybody else on there besides. Guest well, you have. Cspan . Mr. Rodino in the middle . Guest . Yeah, rodino in the background, and you havewhats the name. Cspan unintelligible . Guest . From maryland on the faon the lastthe last one there, senatorhes senator now fromno, hes thethe darkhaired fellow. Hes got his hand up to his face so you cant. Cspan senator sarbanes. Guest thats right. Thats who it is. Cspan were going to go to some other photographs. Where were you allowed to be in theyou know, were you allowed to get closer in the hearing room, compared to the. Guest thethe hear. Cspan . Others . Guest . Thethein thein the house judiciary room there, you did not have the fthe freedom that you had in the Senate Caucus room when we were doing the watergate hearings. You had to pick your spot and stay there, and you were not allowed to stay in there continually. You rotated with other photographers, and you waited your turn, and you had 15 minutes or a half hour, and then you had to get out. So it was conducted quite differently than the senate. It also was a much quieteryou did not have all of the emotions that were going back and forth between the Committee Members and the witnesses during watergate, because there were no witnesses. They were just discussing the thing among themselves. Cspan what kind of lenses do you use . Guest ininin this instance, ii used ffromanywhere from a 15 millimeter, which is a super wideangle, to a 400 millimeter, which i havethat has aa holster on it like a rifle, which always attracts a lot of attention to me, because it looks kind of lethal, but it gives me stability, and im able to get very close to whatever it is thats happening without being right there. Cspan in this photograph, we are looking at peter rodino, who was the chairman of the committee, and david dennis, who was fromnow deceasedfrom indiana. On the other side is a faceshes no longer alivebut. Guest barbara jordan, whowhowho when she spoke, it was like god himself was speaking. She had a powerful voice, and what she said had great content and she did not waste her words. She. Cspan and jerome waldie, behind her on the right, there with the glasses, and then Paul Sarbanes again. Guest right. Another individual thatthatthat had figured, even up to today, so that this picture is one of my favorite photographs, andand it was published in life magazine when they were doing a story on what happened during the impeachment of the president. Cspan if you had a choice, would you rather shoot black and white or color . Guest theyre both important. Iblack and white has archive valuethats the beauty of it. You know when youre shooting black and white that anything that you photograph is going to last long after youre around. When you shoot color, color is much more fragile. It certainly gives you life the way life really is, which is color, but the film doesnt have the long life. Theyrethey have improved it greatly, but when youre shooting this kind of historic document, i think black and white isis much more powerful than color is. Cspan who are these people . Guest well, this is a big surprise toto most people. On the left is bernie nussbaum, who is in the clintonwas in the clinton administration, and to his right is Hillary Rodham, later to become Hillary Rodham clinton. Cspan did you know who they were at the time . Guest no, i did not. They were just figures thatthat i focused on because they gave me nice body language, and i likedand i knew they were part of the committee, and i related them to the back. I had no idealike a lot of pictures that i shoot because i like the way i can compose themthat it would have the meaning and the historic value that they do later on. Cspan on the next page, some other familiar faces. Some have gone from us. Guest yes. Thats ray. Cspan ray scherer is, i think, still with us. Guest . Ray scherer. And. Cspan used to be with nbc. Guest yes. Cspan and then to his right, john chancellor. Guest john chancellor. And. Cspan . And peter hackes. Guest . Peter hackes, and art buchwald. And you can see from the expressions on their face that they were just as engrossed and involved in everything that was going on, and that was sayingas any of the spectators were, because people could not believe what they were hearing, and the facts that were being revealed, and then when the vote came and he was impeached, thatthen they werethe articles of impeachment were passed, itityou know, sort of supported all that maybe a lot of them had thought and felt about what had happened with this white house and in the coverup. Cspan where are you from originally . Guest new jersey. Cspan where . Guest new brunswick, channeli mean, exit 9, to some people. I went to school there, sacred heart grammar school, st. Peters high school, and then joined the navy in world war ii. Cspan go to college . Guest yes, after the navy, on the gi bill. Cspan where . Guest Catholic University of america in washington, and i graduated an architect, and that had a lot to do withwith my style of photography and the way that i take on book projects and the way ii appreciate the world. My architectural training was critical to my life. Cspan starting back here over to the far right, bob goralski, who is deceased, but was with nbc. Guest yeah. Cspan . At the time; frank reynolds. Guest hes deceased. Cspan . Deceased, with abc. You mentioned this photogthis photograph earlier, of trent lott. Guest yeah. Uhhuh. Cspan . And sam donaldson, and then off to the left, a whole bunch of people watching. Where did you take this photo . Guest the press was not allowed into the impeachment hearings en masse, and so the only place that they could operate and continue to report was outside the judiciary room, in the lobby area. And so they would wait for congressmen to come out and have an opportunity toto interview them, and i believe that this imagethis picture was taken after the first articles of impeachment werewere passed and then theythis was beinghe was being interviewed relative to what had gone on. Cspan whos your publisher . Guest abbeville press, in new york city. Cspan what made them think that a book back 69 to 74 would sell . Guest i think they saw two things. Theythey saw the historic significance of this unique document. I also liked them because they did art books. I did not want a book that would be just done in a commercial, photojournalistic way. I wanted it to be done where it sort of crossed between art, history and politics, andand that i would get the right reproduction paper quality andand they designed a beautiful book for me. Cspan and you have the final days. Were you in this room . I assume you were, to take this photograph. Guest you cant do them, otherwise. You cant take pictures. Cspan what was itwhat did it feel like on this day . Guest iitthat room was loaded with emotion. You couldyou could just cut it with a knife. There was no face that you could focus on where you did not see registered the tragedy that we were all witnessing, and everybody wasin that room was sharing in the emotional grief thatthat the president and his family were expressing by their looks and him, by his words. Cspan how many photos in this last section did youdo you rememberwas this one of your bigger sections, or. Guest this isis one of the smaller but the most poignant one. Its amazing howto me, what i did is like aa shakespearean or a greek tragedy. Cspan whats this picture then, a part of that. Guest this image was donethethe leaders of the sthe minority leaders from the house and senate, on august the 7th, came to the white house in order to tell the president , wiwith much chagrin, thatthat they did not have the votes to prevent his impeachment and conviction, and they. Cspan john rose of arizona on the right. Guest yes. Cspan . The minority leader in the house, barry goldwater, hugh scott, the minority leader in the senate, and then gerry warren, the Deputy Press Secretary to the president. Guest mmhmm. Andand it must have grieved goldwater deeply to have to come to the president and, of course, the president accepted what he said like he would not have accepted it from anyone elsebecause nixon had worked very hard for goldwaters election when he ran and was defeated for the president , and so hethey had a great deal of respect andfor each other. Cspan why this picture of helen thomas, near the end . Guest well, helen always wasandand is to this dayaaone of the more important members of the press corps, and to see her there as concerned and griefstricken, as was the first lady and tricia in this photograph, ititit supports what i said earlier, about what the mood was like in that room during the 20 minutes thatthat nixon delivered his farewell address to his staff. The first lady never knew that all of those people would be there in the room. She thought it was just going to be aa very small gathering and farewell. Cspan and you decided to complete the book with this photo . Guest yes, because this, to me, was the end ofof his presidency, and this expression, more so thanthan, you know, what happened afterwards, and you could see the tragedy of what he hadwas going through all over his face, and to me, that he had the strength toto keep hishishis composure, though you could see how broken up he was and the strain that he was going through, and sgive that talk the way that he did, andand bring it offi dont know any other human beings under similar circumstances that could have done it withwithwith theanything mamore controlled than he did. Cspan heres the back photograph of the bookHenry Kissinger and the president looking out from the oval office, and then we flip it around and you can see the cover of it, and this is the book, and our guest has been the photographer for this book, with a text by tom wicker, who was a guest many years ago on booknotes. Fred j. Maroon our guest, the nixon years, 1969 to 1974. Thank you very much for joining us. Guest thank you for inviting me. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the National Constitution center. I am the president of this wonderful institution in the National Constitution center the only institution in america chartered by congress to disseminate information about the u. S. Constitution on a