Transcripts For CSPAN3 Clarence 20240705

Now. I am so pleased to introduce tonights speakers. Dr. Clarence lusane is an author, activist, scholar and journalist. He is a professor there and former chairman of Howard Universitys department of politics science. Dr. Lusane earned his b. A. In communications from Wayne State University and both his masters and ph. D. From Howard University and political science. Hes been a political consultant to the Congressional Black Caucus foundation and a former commissioner for the d. C. Commission on African American affairs. He frequently appears on msnbc and cspan and was invited by the obamas to speak at the white house. Author of many books, including the black history of the white house. Lusane lives and works in the washington, d. C. Area. He is joined in conversation tonight by Phillip Martin Senior Investigative reporter for the gbh news center for investigative reporting. Phillip is a multi Award Winning journalist and was part of a team of reporters that was honored in 2002 with a George Foster peabody award to npr for coverage of the september 11 terrorist attacks in the u. S. He worked as a supervising Senior Editor for npr from 2003 to 2006 and was npr First National race relations. Correspondent from 1998 to 2001. He was executed of producer for lifted veils production lines, a nonprofit public radio Journalism Project that he developed dedicated to exploring the issues that divide and unite society. Phillip earned a masters degree in law and diplomacy from the Fletcher School of law and diplomacy at Tufts University and studied International Protection of human rights law at harvard law school, as well as journalism at the university of california at berkeley. In the program for minority journalists. Tonight, dr. Lusane is presenting his new book, 20 and change. Harriet tubman and the ongoing fight for Racial Justice and democracy. In this book, dr. Lusane writes from a basic premise racist historical narratives and pervasive social inequities are inextricably linked. Changing one can transform the other. Taking up the debate over the future of the 20 bill, lusane uses the question of Harriet Tubman versus Andrew Jackson as a lens through which to view the current state of our nations ongoing reckoning with the legacies of slavery and foundational white supremacy. He places the struggle to confront unjust social conditions and direct connection with the push to transfer from our public symbols, making it plain that any choice of whose life deserves to be remembered and honored is a direct reflection of whose basic rights are deemed worthy of protection and whose are not. Janelle hobson, editor of mars magazines Harriet Tubman, bicentennial project, described it as thoughtfully balanced and nuanced, adding that 20 and change explores the ways that American Hero and National Icon Harriet Tubman resonates across racial, gender and political divides. Lusane captures not only the significance of historic symbols, but how winning the fight over representation and memory advances the ongoing struggles for Racial Justice and democracy. Right now, were so pleased to host this event here at Harvard Bookstore tonight. Please join me in welcoming dr. Clarence lusane and Phillip Martin. Thank you. I think this is on. First of all, thank you for for being here. Really appreciate it. And its great to have clarence here. We are two sons of detroit, originally from the city, very proud sons of detroit, i should say. Let me ask you this question of increasingly we have in our pockets credit cards that pay for everything or debit cards. But do you have a 20 bill in your pocket . Okay. The next time you take a take a close look at that 20 bill, take a close look at the face of Andrew Jackson and think about his legacy. And i guarantee you after this discussion, you will never look at that 20 bill the same way again. I promise you. Clarence, your book is powerful. I, i use that word purposely because it is its one of many descriptors, descriptive terms i could use to describe a book that explores not only the past. Were talking about 1822, Harriet Tubmans birth. Were talking about the pivotal years of 1863 to 1865. Were talking about 1913, the year of her death. But were also talking about this moment because as your book and Harriet Tubman is more than just a symbol of when the Obama Administration in. 2016 announced that it was going to place Harriet Tubman on the on the cover. I mean, on the front of its 20 bill replacing Andrew Jackson, there was a furor. And this question hasnt been settled yet. What happened in 2016 and where are we now with Harriet Tubmans place in history, symbolically and actually, especially in the context of this pushback against what people a lot of folks call in a sort of free umbrella since critical race theory. Okay. So welcome, everybody. Like phil, i also am glad that everyone came out. As phil mentioned, he and i go way back into the same high school, which ill talk about later, which is part of this discussion about this book. So so everybody in this country, many people around the world know Harriet Tubman, if you will, beyond the third grade. You know about Harriet Tubman. But its in many ways a limited notion of Harriet Tubman. And one of the goals of this book is to recast her in a much longer historic perspective. What phil was hinting at, that Harriet Tubman, born in 1822 to the first president s. Were still alive. When she died in 1930. Ronald reagan had been born. So she touched three centuries of American Life and not one single day. And that entire time. Did she ever have full democracy . So i wanted to frame her along those lines, but also in terms of the life she lived after. How most of us know her . So shes known as she escaped slavery. In 1847. Very quickly decided that she was going to go back and rescue family and friends and had made these daring trips, usually in the middle of winter, because that was one of the safest and would brought people out. And thats generally how shes been seen. Theres some knowledge that she was part of the civil war, but can frozen and films that have been made about her. There was a film made about her with cicely tyson many, many years ago. Theres a film that came out a couple of years ago called harriet, which is actually a pretty good film. But it starts with her in the civil war. But in fact, she was active all of her life, not only around Racial Justice issues, but womens issues. She was part of the Suffrage Movement. She spoke out in favor of people who were poor. She spoke out against people who illnesses and where infirm. She herself had disability. She had been injured during the time she was enslaved, had been hit in the head with some metal block. They gave her seizures and finally spells all her life. She was active around Voting Rights. Literally on her deathbed. In 20 1913, there was a very famous march coming up. The Suffrage Movement in washington, d. C. Day in march of and Harriet Tubman, literally on her dying day since the words of encouragement and telling these telling the women to stay strong, that were going to make it. And so all of this to me adds up to not only looking at Harriet Tubman as a warrior for Racial Justice, for womens rights, but also for democracy and at the moment, were in this is the link. Democracys on the precipice. And we really had a crossroads vote where its the thrust for democracy versus the thrust for authoritarian ism. That is the nexus that we are confronting that gives capture in Harriet Tubman versus Andrew Jackson and very different views of what democracy should be about. And the book is title, the title of the book 20 hours in change is kind of a play on words. So it looks at the importance of representation and symbolism, which are really critical, but also look at how thats related to substantive change. And they are not at war with each other. Theyre in conversation with each other. And so the title kind of at one level sort of captures that all the title also. And this i didnt know until i was doing research. Harriet tubman during the civil war had been a spy. Shed been a cook. She had been she was close Civil Military leader. She was the first woman who led a military expedition. And she led a troops down the Combahee River to free people enslaved to attack confederates. Did not lose a single soldier rescued about seven or 800 people who were enslaved. So when that was all over, one of the things that she felt she was justified to get was a pension. Confederate soldiers were getting pensions. Now they tried to overthrow the countries history. They were getting pensions. So Harriet Tubman said, you know, i need a pension. No dummy. Right. And it took decades. She fought for decades past because people in congress were like, yeah, we dont believe she did any of this right. But she mobilized, had support. Finally, she was able to get a pension. Thats like in 1890 or something. And Congress Passed a special law to give this pension. And the pension was 20 a month. Right. So it just was kind of echoing to me. You forgot to take this up. And so all of that, you know, comes as, you know, were in the moment where the second part of the book, the first part of the book is around this issue of Harriet Tubman versus Andrew Jackson. Responses to that. The second part of the book is about the moment were in, which looks at the george floyd moment and how that was a global moment, not just in the us. It looks at the pandemic. The title of that chapter is from 1619 october 19. And it looks at the history of black people when health and how health is always being compromised. It looks at the 1918 pandemic, for example, and how that echoed in the 2019 pandemic. Theres a chapter on symbolic them and the changes, the symbolism, if you will. And i could talk later about the high school we went to, which when i wrote the book, i had no idea this is these are issues that he and i had no idea about. But once you know, the you know, the you know. And then then theres the last chapter on Voting Rights and in one of the joys of this book is i get to talk about my grandmother in her efforts around Voting Rights. One thing thats i mean, youve some of the book up. Well and what really strikes me also about the book is how you posit the slave autocracy of the. 19th century in which Harriet Tubman grew up with and escaped. And the assumptions of by some at that time that this was a minor contradiction as opposed to something that was central to the u. S. Character and the u. S. Economy. And which, of course, was a factor in the the major factor in the civil war. And were still dealing with contradictions where folks look at the jackson nin period as somehow or another, its just sort of a blip or in a grand event in American History. But that his contradictions, his his embrace of slavery, his or his genocide that he carried out against indigenous people, his attacks on fort, as you point out, in your book, a haven for native americans and black folk and his in his or autocracy. We are dealing with an autocratic moment now. It find it interesting that behind donald trump and the president at the white house, he had a huge picture of Andrew Jackson. How do you talk to folks about what you view as a contradiction and what some people view as merely the polarities, if you will, of of American History . But can they find no problem with Andrew Jackson, perhaps on one side of a 20 bill and Harriet Tubman on the other . You said thats an unacceptable contradiction. All right. So what would phil is pointing out about the projection on changing the 20 year hour bill as well as the 5 bill and 10 bill for the 20 bill. The idea is that Harriet Tubman would go on the front and replace Andrew Jackson. But right now, Andrew Jackson will be moved to the back of the bill. And so thats become another issue, that there is a network of us who are lobbying with the Biden Administration and the treasurer of the u. S. To like say, no, thats unacceptable. Thats you know, you wouldnt put you know, anne frank on the front in himmler on the back. You know, it doesnt you know that just doesnt work. In fact, i was thinking about it just this week because last monday of Martin Luther Kings National holiday and, you know, the long pie from, you know, Stevie Wonder to everybody else to make it happen. And we kind of celebrate it. But when you peel that back, if you go to mississippi, you go to alabama, its not Martin Luther king day is king lee day. You go to other places around the country. Theres still robert lee day. Theres still confederate day. And you get this very mixed, confused message that somehow theres some equivalency or theres some kind of, you know, way in which there is these these individual sort of mesh when in fact, they dont at all. And so thats putting Andrew Jackson or leaving Andrew Jackson on in 20 bill continues this mythology that this is someone who the nation should be honoring. As will points out, he not only supervised massacre. He was involved in massacres of native americans for both personal greed purposes, lands that were taken from some of the native americans. He and friends of his were able to get, but also his due to added to that some peoples lives are worthy. In some peoples lives are were not. And so and hes also seen as kind of the father of democracy in the sense that he was one of the founders of the democratic party. He lost the 1824 election. He won the popular vote. Hes had plural plurality in the popular vote, but he didnt win the electoral college. He decides hes going to expand who can vote in and expand democracy. But this is very much tied to why proper men. And he was really clear on this. This wasnt. Yeah. And then later on, well get to the other people who believe this was his view. So you have various opposing views of Harriet Tubman who saw a multiracial people, multi gender, multi religious multiclass of society, versus someone who had a very, very narrow and brutal autocratic view of society. And so that was really at stake at that particular battle. When you step back and look at the occurrence, the overall, it is an issue of what narratives are being told by the images and the stories that were seeing on this everyday object that we interact with. But very passively, kind of dont acknowledge there are and have been native americans in this country who never touch the 20 bill because they understood who Andrew Jackson was. Right. And this is our opportunity to to understand that as well, which is amazing when you think about that famous photo of at the white house where native americans are invited to the white house by trump with a picture of Andrew Jackson in the background fairly amazing. The notion of history being reclaimed and the issue of revisionist ism in and our history in our telling of history, you point out the centrality of race and racism in americas history as does the 1619 project. Youre dealing right now, though, at a moment when individuals, including the governor of florida, ron desantis, is making an effort to essentially weary of reclaim history in most revisionist ways possible and having some success banning books in schools, changing curriculums. So on and so forth. One popular narrative about Andrew Jackson, for example, is advance by arthur schlesinger. And you have others pushed by walter reed and so on and so forth. And i guess the question becomes, how do you, clarence, as the author, as a professor, as an academician, how do you counter this march, if you will, toward revisionism, which, again, has been successful in some areas of the country and where entire curriculums have basically been ripped apart and replaced with fantasy or with a, this did not happen type of type of narrative. How do you push back against that . Im not im not not in that detroit way that we would push president s. And he pushed back against that as an academician in a non gangsta way. But the whole thought out the all over the country, this is happening texas, mississippi, georgia, florida, indiana all over the country there is this concerted effort to make a revision. This notion of history dominant and its its a bit shocking, but its the backlash against the advances that have been made by women, by people in the lgbtq community, by the disability community, by people of color, all of these movements that have claimed they stake in this country and a way to evade. And over this history of marginalization are being under assault. And its for an agenda that i think overall is to set up a White National with christian nationalists nation and to put that in place. Youve got to erase this other history that that directly. You have talked about christian national. You have to get rid of this history. And so we see that kind of unfolding of sort of every day. And we should be very, very concerned about it. And this is a movement that is increase imminently violent, are increasingly intolerant. Are i talk to my students about this and that, tell them the story that. In 1923 in munich, germany, there, the local government there had a meeting at a beer hall in germany, you have these gigantic beer halls where hundreds and hundreds of people go and drink beer. They were having a meeting and this new party that was emerging, a National Socialist party, decided they were going to take the government. And so they surround the place. They go inside, they seize the local leadership, and then they try to try to negotiate for them to give up power. Meanwhile, though, they forgot to tell the police and the army about this, so they find out whats going on. They come and they basically capture the nazis, shut them down. Hitler, who was there, ran away. We got caught a few days later. They have a trial. Hitler goes on trial, gets convicted. Now, in most countries, treason is a capital crime. You do not get out of that, right . Easily minimum you get life in prison. He ended up in jail less than a year. This is where he wrote mine. Cop ten years later. Hes in power. These movements do not go away on their own. They do not do fade because they get caught. They have to be purged in christ. With all the legal means you have available and that means not only on the legal side, also means on the educational side. And so i think were at this moment, we failed to do this after the civil war. So that this narrative of lost calls and this narrative. It really wasnt about slavery. It was about overreaching and government know all of that ceded. So that opens up the door not for the his history, but for the present. And so were seeing that unfold, it unfolding even now. And so i think, you know, as educators, former educators, people like me who are teachers and we have susan classrooms, but informal educators, which is everybody that has knowledge and is interacting with people who need this now. And we have to tell these stories and we have to tell them, tell these are these narratives. And we have to advocate strategies that allow all of these narratives to start taking and having an impact. One of the you bring up something very important which is what have we learned . And are we as so many have pulled in santa honore have said, are we destined to repeat it . And so on and so forth . One, i just want to point out something about your book, 20 and change. You alluded to this, and i wanted to just mention again, i love the way you play with words here, because were not just talking about, of course, the currency of and were talking about change, but some folks, theres some things that dont seem to change. You point out the the situation in munich at the beer hall. And i just have to think about wilmington, delaware, as another example. An example many people arent aware of where an entire city was overtaken, taking over a democratic government was overthrown in the 8090s of ive been learning a lot from Rachel Maddow podcast ultra, which is extraordinary. We realized that there was an attempt to take over the u. S. Government in the name of it, of hitler and fascism, and that a court case im a spoil as if you havent heard it yet. A court case basically failed. There was a failure to basically convict people who had. Were taking over the Us Government by force, including with sash, this organization, something called the silver shirts of, and then we are bring our we come up to 2001 january six and we are now of course, looking at the aftermath of the january six investigation. But were also looking at an effort in this new congress, in the house to essentially revise the narrative, to posit those who took part in this insurrection as heroes. Youve been there before. Youre writing about it. Youre talking about this in the context of what happened over the course of Harriet Tubmans life and what replaced her dream was by 1913, of wilsonian vision that also embraced many of those contradictions, including a wholesale embrace of the ku klux klan. Talk about that, clarence. So. So for this element of our fascism have been in the u. S. Society for four decades, the there are a couple of books and novels that were written about how to get something. Can you hear me . Yes. Okay. I think they were hearing that movie like. Okay. Oh, okay. All right. So there are a couple of novels that have written have been written about this, particularly that period, all the plot against america. Another one called a it could not happen here or something along those lines, but it has happened here. So we tend to look at the period from the end of reconstruction in 1877. All the way up to the 1960s as a period of racial sit back and we call it the jim crow era. But another way to look at it is it was a period of racial authoritarianism that black people lived under a different set of rules, laws, policies, norms, enforcement. And this was across the war and in the south, overwhelming majority. And many people outside of the south supported this system. So were not unfamiliar with and living where our neighbors have very different access to rights than we do. And so we should be very sober about this. And the Rachel Maddow podcast that hes talking about really goes into a history that we dont we basically arent teaching about, but certainly show that these elements are, if theyre not contained, if theyre not addressed, they grow and they metastasize. And so what we see, we do like january 6th is that this move has not gone away. And now were getting we see there have been attempted kidnapings. The governor of michigan, we know now that there have been these. Shootings against democrats. There been threats ongoing against election workers. People work at Library School teachers. Theres a insane degree of violent language on the internet against all of these committed communities and constituencies. And its not going to just stay there. It manifests itself into real life. And so its to me a moment where the nations political leaders, as well as the rest of us, have to speak out against this. It is not enough to be silent and say, well, im not part of it. Weve got to speak out against it and weve got to have the info summit laws that make it unacceptable that this behavior can can go that way. You and i come from pretty tough neighborhoods. And in detroit, im just get that out there. And youre not going to mention but none of these things you talk about are not academic. They are viewed quite often in academic terms, but they arent. I want you to talk about Harriet Tubmans impact, influence on you personally, and id like you, if you will, to read this from Harriet Tubman represents solidarity. If you could read this aloud, because i think this this says a lot about your book. But i also think it says a lot about you, clarence, if you will. How much . Just right. The only study objective just highlighted, the objective here is not to retell her entire biography, but to highlight a few points relevant to the debates about why she should be on the front of the 20 bill and how her work in liberation abolition, womens suffrage and care for those in need offers inspiration for all of those who stand up to justice. Her refusal to accept oppression from anyone, regardless of their powers, that is race or gender. What is fearless as her determination to emancipate herself and others. May i ask you if you could relate that to your own life . If you were briefly . Obviously, im not asking you to give us an autobiography free, but i would love to know how Harriet Tubman influence professor clarence lusane. So let me give a couple of examples. So i open the book. Its in the preface, i think with the story. When my son was six, he and i went down to the opening of the Harriet Tubman underground center down in cambridge, maryland, at fabulous youth center that theyve created about her life. And you can also do tours of where she helped people escaped and all that. And we went down. We got tickets late, so we had to go on a bus and we were on a bus with Senior Citizens and it was me and my son and all these Senior Citizens and he loved it because they were spoiling him big time. And we were going down. He was reading his book, power rangers, right. We get down there and its a fabulous center. People are giving talks about harry tubman, but theres also a section for children where they talk to children about what slavery was, what Harriet Tubman did and all of that. So he got really excited and he bought a book about Harriet Tubmans life. And this is what you read on the way back, you know, and i have a picture of him falling asleep reading this book. Right. So, you know, her life can really impact and tap into peoples sense of justice, which think is very innate in peoples sense of fairness. And, you know, he knew all of the history, but he knew she had tried to help people who were who needed help. Right. So you know, that to me is what you know, Harriet Tubman kind of inspires. And then, you know, ive often thought about also, as i mentioned earlier, my grandmother. So my grandmother was active in the Civil Rights Movement in bessemer, alabama. Bessemer is right next to birmingham and she was part of the demonstrations and the protests. She work with Martin Luther king and Jesse Jackson and kind of all of those people. And growing up, we would go down to visit. And, you know, we really it was segregation and we would have to go in the back door stores. People routinely call those the nword. So after two trips, i refused to go. I was like seven or eight. I was like, i am not going. No, alabama. You. And so i acted out so crazy that my mother and everybody else would go and theyd just leave him, you know, he could go to the curb. We deal with his like, whatever. I just i was traumatized. You know, i have the words we i was traumatized. I didnt go live for 20 years. Right. Because like, oh, hell no. Right but, you know, my grandmother you know, of course, was in touch with her, you know, by her life and all that. And she was really active. She was the first. She was elected some office down there. She was the person who collected ballot box. It was like itd be like it was this. And she was one of like a few hundred people, black people who could vote out of like 30,000. Right. Just like this is like, kind of great. But that was who she was. And, you know, were in a family, just moved with my mother. But, you know, she was a hero to those people down there. And when she died, she died 101. And people came and talked about her standing up against the ku klux klan and, you know, so that was kind of in the family, which i thought just, you know, more generally is this history of resistance that gets passed on to oral tradition through other ways. Thats what my you know, had in our family. You also push back against patriarchy in your book. And you point out the contributions of women, the centrality of women in a number of struggles, including some of the most recent ones around george floyd and the in covid. And so on and so forth of why how did you basically avoid that trap, that so many historians fall into, including some of the individuals i mentioned earlier in their ad, their adulation of of of Andrew Jackson, for example, of following not falling into the trap of of seeing history as a sideways where you place men at this high level with women are often a sidekicks. Weve saw that for a long time with Coretta Scott king and Martin Luther king. And i had a chance to work with my editor recently on a piece looking at Coretta Scott kings of contributions to to the Civil Rights Movement. Talk about. That. So fills me with modesty. What a great article that you also get on Coretta Scott king. And he and i were talking earlier and you and i was tell him i was thinking about this kind of in relationship to this, but that we really should be kings day, because coretta was with him throughout all of that journey. Right. She you know, when he went down that road, she was there every step of the way through his death and beyond. And so, you know, your piece really kind of captures captures that. And, you know, for me, i think in part, you know, i was fortunate. I had strong women in my family and i didnt know any better at all this is the deal, right . You do what they tell you to do. So. So, you know, i became politically active, like she said, we do. So, you know, i in there, you know, i thought about it more consciously the way. But, you know, when you read the history, when you look at, you know, kind of what happened, thats the honest way, you know, that it really was, you know, powerful, powerful, organized women all at every step of the way on the history of this country. And you know, that thats thats just the fact. Whats the main thing youd like to take away from your book . Again, 12 and change, 20. Did i say that . 20 and change. I got 20 right. The reason i got short. Yeah. Oh, well, wow. I know inflation. I get it. I guess. Right. Okay. So, yeah, but you know, so, so, so the the main thing and you know, in the subtitle of the book is, you know, longer struggle for Racial Justice and democracy and i really think this discussion we have to have is ongoing because its not only a discussion. Here is the discussion globally. So a lot of what i do and im kind of not coming to the bookstore is i spend a lot of time outside the u. S. Working with communities on human rights issues and like that. It is an ongoing an issue and struggle that we all have to deal with. And so hopefully people will see the link between, you know, this issue around Harriet Tubman and facts and related to our ongoing challenges around democracy. Well, you know, thats one of the things i should have pointed out is one of over the years, as ive been reporting, a lot of the times ive interviewed you when i was focused on brazil many years ago, when the koreans, as they were, you know, we were talking about the children of the street. We were of you were talking about bosnia many years ago, spent time in bosnia and. How does that that world journey of yours fit into the theme youre. Yeah. That youre communicating in your book. So so theres a through line of people are looking for justice but also looking for inspiration and i think there is an underestimation in the black community here of how much the world gets impact that. So when the protests erupted around george floyd and Breonna Taylor and others people around the world responded not only in support of Racial Justice here, but in their own contexts. And this was in the u. K. , this was in germany. This was in fiji. This was in korea. This was in india. This was all over the world. And that kind of continues. I was in ukraine. In 2014, which is actually when the war started and. I was there kind of accidentally. How do you actually in ukraine so i was i was living in japan at the time and i got a call from a friend of mine, kimberly crenshaw, who some you know, shes the activist, lawyer and writer all around, great person. And so she asked me to go to ukraine in her place to give and talks on human rights, the intersectionality. And so my first words to her, because this was like a who like april 2014, im like kimberly, isnt there a war going on in ukraine . Youre not trying to give me the government playbook. Shes like, no, no, i have nothing else to do. So if you can go and do this the way i was like, so they called, have the embassy call me and i would go. And the two conditions are one is that they dont fly me over the war zone, right . Like, you know, i know enough about war. Dont fly over war zones. So i had to go all the way to turkey. And anyway. And then the second thing was, oh, there was an organization in kiev called the Africa Center, which fought around Racial Justice and human rights. And i was like, now the talks are going to be televised. I was like, bring me into the capital. Let me stay there for a few days, hang out with these guys because i wonder what theyre up to. And then i will, you know, go do thing. And they were like, fine, because we know these people. So i spent time in the capital working with the Africa Center on these issues of what they were fighting. And at that time, the war started in the east and africa. Students were trapped right now and blown up like it did this year and last year, but it was still very dangerous. And ultimately they negotiated with nigeria to send a trace specifically to go and pick up like 800 people or Something Like that. Right. But my talks with them were very much about what they were going through and they very much want to know how we did in the us, how we were addressing some of these same kinds of issues. Im shaking my head because i appreciate youre curious, cassidy. This your because this is its its intellectual but its also just a broader curiosity of the world. And that is so, so needed. We have a few minutes. Im going to open this up to our our audience of and and and by the way, 20 and change and we want you take a look at the book, grab it on the way out. And im going to ask you if you have questions for clarence lusane. Oh, please. Im going to i can bring this. Oh, okay. Okay. Hi. Um, im so excited about this book. I havent read it straight through yet, but im really enjoying it and have a million things to say. But ill try to keep it short. I dont know if people realize that in england when jane austen, when the idea of jane austen being on the £10 note, which is similarly symbolic because that £10 was her annual allowance, a woman, her books were published anonymously and nobody knew who she was, which was published anyway. She went when the idea of putting a white woman from 200 years ago on the £10 note, people started Death Threats against the politicians the women politicians who suggested it and people actually went to jail because they have laws like that in england to protect people against threats internet threats. Yeah, i mean, im totally in favor of having Harriet Tubman on the tape. Im really excited about it because as a woman, i feel like she is shes me like she is a small, fierce activist. And i what i mean to say is, sorry, youre inspired. I am inspired by her. And i feel like its not just people of color who will see themselves on this capitalist device, but it will also be women and girls and just people. When i try to explain to my Gen Z Millennial people who protest that its a capitalist, you know, that its money. You shouldnt honor her by putting her on money. Shes probably anticapitalist. But i just they dont understand what its like never to see yourself on anything, on any, any of these symbols. You know, the paper that you the the money that youve been spending your life, you keep you look at it and you dont think about it. Its just these old guys, these old white guys. Um, i tried to spare the Harriet Tubman 20 and roxbury, the black neighborhood in boston. I was going to the bookstores as people, as a lot of white people did to try to support a black independent bookstores and tried to give the guy i said, would you take this 20 that i had stamped with the Harriet Tubman stamp . And hes like, no, im afraid my bank manager will not accept it. And i thought, thats thats sad. Like he didnt feel empowered to, whereas i was able to spread it in a cafe in cambridge. So what, what . What . Oh, wow. I have this with the stamp on it. Yeah. And youre right. Youre right. So. Oh so she makes a very important point. So one of the things that i do in the book, this is part of the scholarly side of it is that also give voice to the opposition, to people. So theres two types of opposition. Theres the wing party, nobody your the white man opposition that comes from the trump crowd, but then theres opposition from people who see themselves as progressive, who argue make a number of different arguments. One is the this is exploitation that putting her on is just kind of the, you know, of of its a poor irony given that she was sold as as a person are others who say that she she would not want to do this which is probably true. There are others who think that you know, Harriet Tubman that this is performative antiracism, that this is the kind of thing you do, this kind of symbolism. But then you kind of, you know, dont pay people minimum wage. So those are all the fairly empty arguments. You know. And so, you know, they they i dont dismiss them as as unimportant, but i stand with the large, larger issue of the need for pushing back and for that representation really isnt poor and critical and part of transformation. So even though the commodification of human beings are pervasive during her era, you find that that is that the over that the overreaching concern is the symbolism of Harriet Tubman and the outreach to millions of people. Is that a good summary . Yeah. So the story, the narrative is really kind of critical and everywhere in the world, shes right where theres there have been issues of who goes on the currently right and are we just didnt think about it here but its certain because you know for last hundred years weve been saying people and generations just sort of accepted. But this is an issue when all or apartheid was overthrown in south africa, they did not keep both of them in well in the currency, they were like, hell, no, this is a new era is over. And so then the issue became who was you know, of course, mandela went on the currency. But, you know, those kinds of questions are are reflected in power relations and theyre reflected in who stories important to be told in the celebrated and honored, which is, of course, why a lot of statues. Confederate statues are being torn down now. Absolutely. You are right. And any other questions wed love to hear from you or comments up, please. I want to state i havent read your book yet and im glad im going to get it tonight. But i just read the tubman command ad and right before that i read the known world, edward p jones. Right. Stunning book. And i feel like knowing the story is transform national and like how how do we get the story about Harriet Tubman and and the whole thing that that represents as much out in circulation as the kings, even though theyre not Coretta Scott king is not in as much circulation. But its such a powerful story. And just reading it, even for a white woman, is transforming, you know. So im glad to read your book right. So we have to fight, you know, the zillions of ways to circulate narratives. So, you know, some people put out books, but, you know, there are ways in which people have conversation. There are ways in which people organize events. So there are multiple venues. And again, once, you know, you tale. So for example, people tell you, you know, he and i went to casting in detroit at the time. We work with one only top ten high schools in the country is what we would call a Magnet School today. And at the time we went, we were they integrated in generation because prior to that, basically being white, upper middle class and that and you know the very Famous School lots of pride about it and all of that we knew was kind named after a governor, but not much more than that, as it turns out. And later, lee, while i was researching this book. Oh, it came out more and more that lewis cass, who the school was named after, was in Andrew Jacksons administration. And he had been one of the individuals who had been critical in their antiindia impulses. He was a slave holder. You know that that you know, youve checked all the boxes. We didnt know this. Right. And the school we went to was very much on trading us to change the world that, you know, you are should be leaders in the world and all that. Course, we have to speak out against it now. And but controversial because theres a lot of pride about the school and changing the name. People would see sort of erasing that because of the troubles in detroit around education. They want to hold on to this this piece of pride, but local is named after its name. That is the school was at this point like probably 90 black or Something Like that. The kids in the school dont need to be named as a school. Somebody whose enslaver and who contribute to to killing native american people. But these are not easy. But you know that. Okay. So we didnt we didnt know we would active his generation. We were out protesting the war and everything else. Oh, yeah. We do know that, you know, every day we went to school, do you know this do was to who was named after but now you know once you know oh thats Biggie Smalls yeah thats right that of course reminds me of something is happening right in boston. You know, theres a theres been an attempt to change the name of faneuil hall for a long time now. Faneuil, who, of course, gained his wealth, slavery and the north is often not implicated in these things. But you point out in your book, the conflict between the capital, its north of the attempt, the industrial north and the agrarian south. And that that was the and that the fight over slavery had less to do with concerns about human beings than about the outcome of which system, how central is that to your book . Are its critical. And again, you know, Harriet Tubman lived through all of these changes, none of which fundamentally lead resolve issues of democracy for people of color. Right. So this so the creation of the Republican Party in the 1850s is as an antislavery party really was a anti southern aristocracy party. And where you break that a stock with the is you get rid of slavery when slavery was over not all but for many the Republican Party certainly for many in the in does realists on the financial side of it. Yeah we done yeah we good we can go kind of go for but there was another side of the Republican Party in that era the radical republicans that did what did not anywhere else in the world with slavery was ended with that we have to take some responsibility. And so you get the reconstruction era where you get the freedmens bureau, you get the freedmans bank, you get black people elected to office. You have people in congress who five years earlier had been enslaved. Does that happen anywhere else in the world with slavery in in brazil . It was like you own your own people know to do say stay where they were they just didnt have that label in slave slave anymore. Would they stay because there was no support whatsoever and so that ten year period of weakened structure in which we dont teach enough about was really one of the most democratic moments in the us because it really was reparations, right . That was being carried out. Now, again, the Opposition Forces didnt go away and eventually they they overthrew the reconstruction but the skills and the talent that developed during that period is what led to the Civil Rights Movement that would come down the road. I got to tell you, ive loved this conversation. I thank you for taking part in it, folks. And of ive i cant think of cast in the same way again. Oh yeah yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry to ruin i, i was just about to start singing catholic theme song. I cant do that now. Right i really love chaos right . You play. Oh, my wife knows that. I mean, she she hears it enough. Thats true. Well, of course. Thank you very much. And i want to thank all of you for being here. I think that is it for our time, am i correct . Yes. I was hoping