Transcripts For RT Going Underground 20230225

thousands of the poor and vulnerable died of cold. at least that's according to the global exclusive scoop of the century made by one of the greatest journalists in history. seymour hersh, famous for exposing the meal i massacre that became emblematic of us slaughter of millions in vietnam, cambodia lau, to the nato nation use of torture in iraq. the former new york times journalist and author of reporter memoir, joins me from his home in washington. d. c. thank you so much cipher coming back on . i should say that just in the past few days, you've come out with another piece or with the i agree. horrific title from the gulf of tonkin to the baltic sea and almost running parallels with respect to the norwegian government between a was that killed millions of people in vietnam. cambodia allowed to comparing them to the biden attack. that some say may have killed hundreds of 1000 this winter and they really comparable. well, i, i did write that. i didn't, i didn't say they were comparable. i just mentioned that is if anything that it's a historical fact that the united states manipulated intelligence and invented an attack that didn't exist in 1964 to drive the congress to give the president what he wanted authority to do everything. and it's also pretty true right now that this presidency, it's been caught out in a way by the fact that they did the pipeline. they're not admitting it. i don't think they ever will. because the implications of doing self i'm. i must know that i have no idea if anybody died because of the cold. i think the real where europe has is next winter because there was a, between the time of the pipeline was blown up september late september. and the onset of winter, the manager, increase the number of amount of fuel a have stored. but the worry is an excellent drainage as, as i'm sure people in europe know or pay more attention to. than here. there's been a lot of storm and drag, a lot of stuff going on in germany about this and there are being debates in the, in the, in the, in the side there, parliament and a lot of discussions. i know i've been invited to all sorts of meetings there, which i'm not doing. and i know the un security council had a debate on this. none of which gets much coverage in the american press, which is too bad. let's just go to the un security council meeting. i know that to, to the people, to testify to their they both been on the show. ray mcgovern and jeffrey sachs. i don't know what you thought. if you heard the under secretary general appointed by antonio terrorist, un secretary general, resume decarlo appointed by this is antonio tears said the un is in no position to investigate this because their doubts over the investigation is currently being conducted by the swedish, danish, and german governments. into the north stream, a catastrophe. and she said she also city, she, it was unleashed by the invasion of ukraine. and we should avoid any unfounded accusations as if kind of backing up some of the security council permanent members . i don't know what you thought of britain's envoy, a single source journalism debunked. i mean, i don't know what he thought of that every day something i, i didn't follow that closely. i read an article about it today and i did hear about what the, the brit said. the written diplomat said in america, the president has something called an immense power on the intelligence community. he can give what they call a tasking order to the community. he can say to the, the, the, the intelligence soccer, we have something called the o. and i office of national intelligence with the supreme commander of, of all intelligence assets, including the military. and they have an intelligence office. he could ask them for a complete all source. they could access the signals, intelligence, etc. he could also ask the cia directly because they have an intelligence of division that does it's own work. there's also a special little black intelligence operation for the covert forces we operations. we have there's 3 large intelligence organizations that have the capacity capacity to get access to all. and he has not issued one order. he's not asked for any, any in valuations, jake sullivan, the, the guy who had a lot to do with organizing the, the initial, the initial operation. he was the national security virus. he had a news conference in which he said, well are we're having our allies look at it. and he mentioned that he didn't talk about his own of as american investigation. the sweden days did do an investigation in september and october. they came out with this astonishing conclusion that indeed something had been something happened under the water and it was an explosion. i'm just thinking that something different. i want to get into the failure of russian intelligence actually that you are a report arguably was, is as well. but there's something different here because whilst they can deny it and lie, and as they have done from stories from you from watergate to me lie to everything else. this time is the new york time saying good reasons to doubt the story at the white house saying, i should not be believed on any fact. and as for ned price, while he may be allowed judicially to pay with delay, he says beyond getting his into facts entirely wrong as high as he has been before in very high profile ways. what's all the character assassination? bundle in with the denials that they're allowed to do. if this was a covert atrocity, the, the by the ministration undertook that's the game. either. it's the game. i always had people that i could talk to since doing the meal i story in 1969 was a massacre. data been done a year and a half earlier about which i will tell you the knowledge of that kind of stuff was known. the many in the press corps, but if you're working over there, i can understand it over there would be dangerous to do a story like that. you know, the americans would not like it. so there was always a hesitation inevitably about that. but when i did that, saw it more than half the country thought i was lying about it. you know, so i've gone through this on even on a mass mass of merit. murder story, which is so obvious to find is quicker nowadays because your article about nordstrom is much quicker than bob. she has article about gulf of tonkin, false flags committed by johnson. yeah, things are getting quicker. ah, yes, god damn no communication stuff that's going out and i don't know much about. i mean, i can barely, i can, i can operate a, a cellphone, maybe on, on my good day. you know, in our generation, ours phones, you know, and now it's so fast, everything so quick, so fast, so quick. i like since i did that 1st story a month ago, was it a month ago, 3 weeks ago? i'm beginning 350 to 400 phone emails a day because everybody knows my e mails out there is like a phone number. and so and it, in the old days, it took a week before, you know, i got much response. i had to see, i wrote my 1st meal i stories and was sent the 50 papers and in one afternoon by telex collect this is in 1969. and i, we didn't know to the next day. i my colleague and at the little news agency on which i published, nobody one of my story, nobody in the world, one of the me life story. i'll tell you that. and we didn't know until the next afternoon when they say out of town papers came in there, it had been a squash. now it's so different and it's probably better, but it makes for, it's real easy. look, this white house has no. natalie no incentive to investigate the story. they have no incentive to ever to ever deny it. i mean, look what they did in late september of, of last year. what, you know, how many, 5 months ago they, they had. they could have blown it up any time from, you know, they, i wrote about operations and norie and all that. those earlier stories. i wrote about a lot of detail about it and an awful lot of detail including stuff inside some of the white house meeting. so, and i didn't, of course, i didn't name my source. and if you notice or to read it carefully, there's no suggested my source was ever at any meetings. because the one thing we're good at is tracking people. if i had, if i had somebody at a meeting, they would know who was there and they would work from that. at this point. you know, their problem is, i know, you know, get an illegal wire tap, which i don't think they'll do both. so this note, and who said the balloons, chinese balloon story was he? he added to your original surveillance stories of the 70 thing. it is already bug. maybe they are bugging this right now, but i just want to quickly get to russia because a, as you know, and you must have seen the russian defense ministry. so gay showing who's a organization in moscow said, oh it's m i 6 and something to do with the royal navy. and then there was this league message from the van british, a very brief british prime minister, freedom of information request of why she was texting, antony blink and the secretary of state it's done, lives, trust, and freedom of information requests elicited a response. thank you for your e mail searches of not identified any information held in scope. your request, but it was late that she texted this. russia didn't really understand. i mean, they knew about salvador i in there. would you expose the see a plot against back in the seventy's, in this case russia completely missed the boat when it came to north stream. i have no idea. i mean, i, i have not talked to anybody in russia and a rush of course is responding to the story with enthusiasm because you know, it's, they're in a war and all bets are off. but i, i seriously doubt. well, let me see, i remember this way. i've said this a couple times and read in interviews. if i were a reporter looking at the story now at the new york times of the wall street journal, i would try and find people. even americans who own or on the boards of companies that build pipelines underwater because i can tell you right now, ah, i have empirical stuff. i can't make public because i've said i would not. but i can tell you right now that there's nobody in the who, in the pipeline business, nobody who was a consultant to the companies that worked for the pipelines. and i've talked to those people, some have somehow at least one in particular that nobody has. nobody has a, they're actually, the one thing that convince of, of course, is russia did do it because as definitely is insane for them to have done it. and by the time it happened in september, the germans note the 2nd pipeline north seemed to was online. the 1st pipeline was, was announced in late in, under the bush cheney years. and i can tell you that, going back to the kennedy years that we've always, that the worry has been that russia because it was enormous amount of natural gas and, and, and, and, and an oil in, you know, in all of a rush, asia is full of a, a ra, minerals, and gas, methane gas, where there's always been a worry that russia, what would the word we're uses weaponized, weaponized gas, particularly as a weapon, political weapon in the, in the struggle with us that's been going on since world war 2. sy hersh, i'll stop you there. more from the pulitzer prize winning legendary journalist after this break. ah, ah, what, what to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. that development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk when i was showing wrong, when i just don't know any new world. yes. to see out disdain. because the attitude and engagement, it was betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with bullet surprise winning. legendary journalist seymour hersh. you mentioned the janie is one of the cheney alumnis is a victoria newland. of course i know chaney and you go back years in some ways to the seventy's. when did this all start then? because if they were planning it way before the one year, one year ago when russia moved into dumbass ab for the, for the big fight back minsk, we had a un security council resolution. this would completely violate that resolution to do 02 to try and calm things down when it came to the ukraine, or rush versus russian speaking areas of ukraine situation. we had newland and the phone call thanks. the u. e. in 2014. of course, all the media, you mentioned new york times, washington post and the whole war started a year ago. when did it start? and why would the buy and joe biden personally are talking about and jake sullivan and add to the blinking. they knew that they knew minsk was in force and they just went go for a blow, the thing up well mention i think the record immense is pretty horrible. i mean, i, if you know, chancellor, former cesar merkle said literally the words i'm giving you the west side to administer your corps at 2014, which called for a p c's fire in the areas of ukraine to have a lot of russia. russian population and she said, everybody knew it just gave nato a chance to bill of arms. some people might say that given the scope of the article in terms of who must have had to know about this plan. whether it be the norwegian, sailors and governments, and yet you're an expert, this naval stuff since project jennifer, people can look it up and your and the crate sounds crazy. multibillion dollar ideas of russian nuclear submarines. norwegian sailors, people in the norwegian departments, people in the state department, people in the pentagon, people in the c i a bill burns is law and there's only one whistleblower in effect here. or who is saying look this is this is pretty bad. what the, by an administration has done that, i suppose that surprised even some may be in those institutions who, you know, respect you greatly, but at the same time have to go along with their leaders. whether it be in state or the see. i know you mentioned ed snowden, here's where teachers me about him. at the time he was in the ca, i read his memoir, which is quite interesting because he was really a kid really in the computers and not in a political science. so he's in there and he discovers that the one thing about the n a say that i knew from i've been reporting in washington for the new york times. and before that for the a p, i covered the war vietnam war in washington in the pentagon. and so i got to know something, some people who worked in the signals world. and the one thing that i understood is that if you're in the signals where you cannot intercept an american without a warrant, what snowden discovered was told and learned as a consultant, was that they had changed the law they, they opened it up and everybody knew it they opened it up so they could now listen . if you were listening to somebody, we thought was a, an agent of al qaeda and he had a conversation with an american. you didn't have to hesitate, take it coffee, it down. so snowed, who is not a political person, a technological person recoiled at this. and at that time there were maybe 25000 people working for the an essay. let's just say, i know it's more than that, probably 10 percent directly new. the rules had changed. so for important rule rules, as always, you do not listen to americans as a constitution and out of that out of those 10 a 1000. how many thousands one spoke out about a direct violation most. one of the most sense of things in the american constitution, the right of speech not to be monitor without a warrant. and so people sometimes talk to me about, well, you know, you're a conspiracy theorist because you, you know, 11, the conspiracy stone was one out of what, 101-525-0012 speak out. so there is something about the community that is bizarre. and the wooden in the guts, a took him to the, the speak out in the price he's paying for it. you know, he's losing, you know, i, you know, i don't think it's safe from never come back to the country. but the bottom line is the notion that there's something in spirit tauriel a for a reporter to. it's, it, they're just all kinds of people in the american government. and many in the intelligence community in many, in the military, under the value of the constitution. they take an oath of office to the constitution, not to the president. and those are the people i've gotten. i know many of them over the years. those are the people and summarize the c one, some become for stars. some of the people i've talked to were leading way at the top of the client and talked to me privately about stuff they couldn't stand because to them the constitution was the thing. and those people are the people i know. and i will tell you right now, we're also the people i will protect forever. because you know why, why shouldn't i? and i'm telling you what happened in norway. the reason i wrote the piece of sac subsector going back to lyndon johnson. we all know that john's his premise for going expanding the war and getting congressional pro commitment to do whatever he wanted the war to same as the, the one that george bush got after 911 that led him to go to iraq. he could do what he wanted. he got a complete bill of goods rights for in a speech called the, the tonkin gulf resolution in the congress passed after us after johnson lied about what happened in the war. he invented a north vietnamese attack. the mcnamara conspired to change the intelligence is that this is not new. it's been known, but i use i'm, i was thinking of that in the context of johnson lied about something that led us into a war that killed 50000 americans and get this anywhere between one and 3000000 vietnamese . we don't know that that's the way we deal with the, with these people have a different race, i guess, one to 3000000. and so here we have a president lying about a not telling truth about something he authorized that did happen. and what is going to happen now? germany, i think the reason for it, i think in late september last year, it was clear that whatever we thought about ukraine winning, the war, standing up to the russians was going to be very unlikely. which it is going to be very unlikely to spite which arena daily newspapers is not going well at all. so prudence telling western europe and the germans in particular, the germans that, well we very, you were so worried that you might decide that the support is all away because you're getting oil from russia. they control the pipeline. as i said, the germans, he was worried, they were dropped the sanctions as are taking the gas again. so what he did is, is he said to europe and i said, well, you can't in a crunch. you know, we're going to let you be cold. it's not cold this year, but i will tell you right now the real worries next winter, although the excess deaths a, b, b, c. p said that was the highest on record in 2022 towards you know, since the north stream destabilize prices so that their varying degrees. and some people are saying that we're not allowing the information out. but before, to get away from the depressing idea that there's only very few people that the set up for the constitution amongst the thousands of people to work in your intelligence services. in a way, you're complimenting a joe biden and sullivan, joe bible, who everyone is saying, always seen island so on. there's an implication that the reason they gave away the fact they were pleased with the nord stream atrocity. newland, of course, saying it's a hunk of metal and blink and saying whatever he was saying in a way may give them some judicial help in any future court that they are allowed to covertly blow up the nord street. the right. what in the sense that you're in berman you say you said people were alarmed that they were publicly telling the press, hey, been ordering, has been destroyed. and on the other hand, there is a reason why they might wish it be known that they action have been taken. well i'll tell you the point of view that i gathered from the team very, i think very competent team that the american team that went to norway. we went to norie to figure out what to do because the pipelines are running all the way down the baltic. sea from basically outside of saint peter's outside of leningrad and all the way down to germany directly. there were 750 miles to them. and all i can tell years the saw was of the peep. the people assigned to do this project is this is in before christmas of 2021. when russia was building up and it was clear that total had was mentally across the line anyway. was going to be hard to get them off it. among other things, the rhetoric of the by anti brushing rhetoric had improved. the russia didn't need a war. russia was, has been doing dealing with the west and trading and was profitable. and moscow was a town of tourism in nice weather, great restaurants and all that stuff. people very open about america and to get back into a war the public didn't want. but art rhetoric after book got in after a by you got an office, the rhetoric, if you look at the statistically the percentage of people who supported the potent and the idea of war. they went up enormously and he got political backing and away from the rhetoric to do the war. because that he stated the still staying recently popular in russia. nobody likes him. when i go to russia, everybody privately would say what, you know, he's a leader. we don't like what he is is he's not being challenged for the leadership . even though we keep on wishing he would be the people who did this thing were assigned to do it in the intelligence community, the operators, they initially thought it was a great idea. let's get a capacity was before it be before russia was talking, but it was so late, 2021. let's go and find out if we can do it. and by, within a few months, the white house clearly was told that was told the people doing it thought this was in a bad idea. they gave the white house some options to maybe bluff or convince. putting at the cost is going to be very high and but then when the white house blue, bye talk publicly about this within 3 weeks of the briefing, the information he got and victoria knew them both within a week period in late january, early february of last year both said publicly, well, we know we can stop at and maybe be let, let me. so the news congress, if, if a we will stop the north she wanted and the president was asked after he said that by a reporters, it's a fame is all on tape with on a nightly news report. so how will you do it? he said, let me tell you, we know how to do it. we can do it language like that. and at that point, the guys in the group were upset because it was supposed to be covert operation. and by the time they finally, they did their job, they made it possible they, they planted the bombs with 8 of navy divers and. and then it just sat there. the bomb sat there for months was planted in june, but by wish by so when, when the war look, you look like the ukrainians were doing ok. by late september there was certainly evidence of a serious a serious issue. it wasn't gonna be a cakewalk for the ukrainians, like some people in the press route. and at that point, the group that made it possible. understood that he did it for political purposes period is not going to help to war. and what it does, what he was doing it for was to prevent germany and western europe if case the winter came quickly from opening up the pipeline. the german government had, they had done the sanction. they had stopped the pipeline. but the german government, the right to open up the new one and that wasn't wanted bye bye. that's the rationale for the mission to make sure that europe and western europe keeps on. funneling supporting nato and keeps on falling arms into, into what is clearly a proxy war against russia. that's being fought right now. and just finally, very briefly, the silence of the green movement. this is supposed to be one of the are the largest, perhaps man made methane, leak in history. the by the administration is committed. i speaking to you for a place hosting cop 28 the by administration. always talking about green issues while to fuel emissions. where is great, a thumb, but where is greenpeace? that said they wanted to do a investigation and they contacted you. a lot of people have but i don't. but the greens have really moved a lot politically. and a more than i thought i really, i really was ignorant about it. they, the greens they have moved center. right. which surprised me. no. and because i knew him differently when i was dealing with germany after after 911. what is happening is both the macro and france and sholtes in chester, germany. i've been talking more to the chinese, which the chinese have been. it may be awful. i'm making vaccines and really dumb about how they ran that whole covered business. but the chinese have been way ahead of the rest of the world and what they call renewables on, on the dealing investing in none. oil based, no energy part sources. and so it's kind of at a point where i'm with the pipeline gone, b a s f, which is the largest good chemical company in the world. and 100000 employees has that a compact production because they can't get all the gas they want. and anyway, the price of the gas is so much higher custody that a profit, they've actually had contacts with china. and so i understand everyone had thought about maybe moving some, some, some other products with some of their physical plants or some of them. but that might, that might be russian gas coming down to china is a shy we're gonna have, does it help at that stuff at that? thank you so much. the wash and sized book rebel dra memoir is out. now that's over the show will be back next. saturday with a different perspective or george friedman, the founder and former chairman of now defunct intelligence, gathering platform, strapped for subject to revelations, by wiki leeks, until then you give it to us. why are all our social media? if it's not sense it in your country, i'm head to our channel going on the grantee on rumble dot com to watch new and old episodes going underground. so you've, i said, ah, at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people, and to defend the world from great danger. with food and medicines and supplies and sleep with ah, when general elections are set to begin in nigeria in just one hour africa, most populous patient and largest economy is to elected president, vice president ad members of parliament. also, i had the collective west must accept the fact that there are other players on the world arena. the security of the country should not be pursued at the expense of others. russia and china lamba west for attempting to monopolize security at the expense of other nations. as the un security council most over