gold, crude moving lower this morning. the dollar setting some new highs. just now, jobless claims rise to the highest levels since june. poised for a higher open, lulu lemon beats on the top and bottom line. raises forecast for the rest of the year. another retailer trying to regain its cool. more from target, as well. the exclusive interview we just mentioned, that newly minted chief of sprint will sit down with favre. oil prices falling on worries about growing supply, international energy agency lowering its oil demand forecast. this on the morning after the president delivered that primetime address outlining his strategy for combatting the threat from those islamic militants, including american air strikes in syria. >> this counterterrorism campaign will be waged through a steady, relentless effort to take out isil wherever they exist and support for our partner forces on the ground. this strategy taking out terrorists who threaten us while supporting partners on the front line is one we have successfully pursued in yemen and somalia for years. >> we have an open-ended military campaign that is getting broader. let's look at it through the lens of mashts and stocks. >> i think there is a sense this adds to what is evolving to what looks to be a worldwide slowdown. we juxtaposed the president's speech with oil. that's very important because we are supposed to have go up at the time of turmoil. iraq is a couple million barrels a day. we look at what's going on in libya that's big. nigeria, ebola, russia. they already started cutting back natural gas to poland, an unlooked upon story. oil should be up. it's confusing people. demand is down. if we see demand down, we'll be worried about companies with international growth. meaning the same american companies with good business in china, good business in europe. people are just trying to calculate it. people must have been long oil betting one of these three hot spots would indeed go up and cause oil to have a super spike. it didn't happen. >> gold as well. $1,246 is around the level bulls argue has to hold before they start setting the targets in the $1,200 range. >> people are confused. we know in a time of turmoil what we reach for and what we sell. what we obviously got to own gold. we have to think oil is going to go up. this looks very much like 1990 or before the second gold foreign. when the playbook doesn't work, people sell. there are a lot of people who say, wait a second, i can't make any sense of it. i'm speaking of hedge funds, typically. i'll just leave. that's why futures are down. >> how about names that are domestic, aren't leveraged to europe. momentum names you say bifurcated this market. >> the money comes back to them. it is daunting for people to recognize there are companies that get anointed. this morning, people -- i read jim cramer on twitter, people criticize me. go pro. quintessential domestic name. the new product is very, very strong. that stock goes up. people say, jim, that is a hideous market go pro. >> i'm saying when twitter comes down, you buy twitter. you don't look at the international news flow and say i'm going to sell gilead. the world doesn't work like that. the world is not a fair place. money goes somewhere. alibaba is going to cause selling. i was on the alibaba site last night trying to buy something. people should go there before they put in for stock. >> because? >> it's fabulous. >> really? >> it's fabulous. >> having started mostly as a b2b. >> if you design something and want to have it made, it's so expensive, i can't justify it. i can put out an order that says i want chairs for my small plate mexican restaurant. i can get them designed. shipping is expensive, but labor cost worldwide -- this is like a globalization play. people view it as amazon. i can't go on amazon and do a purchase ordinary for the kind of chairs i want. it's very easy. people have to understand why it can have more sales than amazon and ebay. use the site. >> absolutely good advice. speaking of retail, shares of lulu lemon up. 33 cents a share. that was a beat. revenues beating consensus helped by higher direct to consumer shares. lulu lemon raising full year guidance by a penny. we know what they've been through over the course of the year. >> it's not sleight of hand, it is forecasting. lululemon is down a lot. i still think yoga is big. i've been focused on deckers brand because they have a new yoga shoe. do you buy lulu? yeah, yesterday you buy it. come on. let's face it. you missed it. >> we should point out, the guidance they are raising is nowhere near making up for the june guidance they gave which slashed everything. >> exactly. exactly right. is the yoga concept good? yes. that's why others are getting in on it. i think there is definitely a cessation of the turmoil at lulu, which is good. whenever we see cessation of the turmoil, management can focus on the business. i do believe yoga is not a craze or a fad. i miss christine day, the former ceo. i like to see positive comps. jc penney did not bounce until you had positive comps. i like to see positive comps. i'll make five below, i'll deal with that. i will accept restoration hardware. when comps are negative, it's tough to get behind something. >> interesting morning for retail. downgrade at macy's at stern's. this news out of radioshack today, an adjusted per share loss doubled the estimates, actively exploring options to overhaul the balance sheet. they need to recapitalize before running out of cash in the very short term. judge, that made me look $600 million plus in revs the corner. those shorting best buy, keep track of the fact radioshack -- you want to be in business against radioshack. circuit city folded overnight. you should recall when that next store goes under, if that happens to radioshack, people want electronics. they are not all going to go to amazon. is there a big theme in research about web rooming. people have been going to best buy and buying it online. just be careful if you are short best buy. this could be an unseen positive that happened very quickly. >> right. best buy with a huge short interest, as well. >> a year ago we were talking about the very exciting radioshack ads. i go to the shack. why do i go to the shack? i have no idea. >> that's an excellent point. finally on the stern downgrade of macy's, you liked the name for a long time. >> compelling points. compelling points are a peak. remember, there are a lot of retailers, particularly kohls we don't talk about, jc penney, nordstrom. macy's did not make the number. the theme of this piece is macy's had a really good run. it's given you a dividend boost. everything is good there. that's why it's where it is. you need more to get it higher. more like it can't go up a lot from here. it's not anything that makes me feel like macy's isn't a great operator. the up side is limited after this run. >> given the take today will be reflective. >> very much so. when we come back, our exclusive with the new ceo of sprint, marcelo claure took the top job a month ago. we settle into this anniversary of 9/11. of course, a moment of silence here at the new york stock exchange in just about 15 minutes. opinions. there's no shortage in this world. who do you trust? whose analysis is accurate? how do you make sense of it all? a simple, unbiased stock score consolidated from the opinions of independent analysts... is that too much to ask? nope. equity summary score, powered by starmine, will help you execute your ideas with speed and conviction. and it's only on fidelity.com. open an account and find more of the expertise you need to be a better investor. i'm david faber. at goldman sachs annual communications and media conference. joined by the new ceo marcelo claure, prior to your presentation that will take place about an hour from now. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for the opportunity. happy to be here. >> i sat down with your main shareholder who controls roughly 80% of sprint earlier this year. he and i talked about the need for scale at sprint. i asked him without that scale, what are the chances for success? he said to me and i checked the transcript, it's a long shot. do you think it's a long shot? >> no. i mean the reason why i took this job because i believe in the prospect of sprint. i believe we only have 16% market share so i see tremendous opportunity. i see a chance that this industry can be a lot simpler. i'm in it and i think we have a good opportunity to continue to grow sprint. >> what do you mean simpler? >> i mean our industry is confusing. if you just saw the launch of the iphone 6 then you see every carrier throw different offers, i think if you are a consumer and you look at all that, it is confusing. you never know what's the rate, what's the cost of the phone, what is the contract? we are trying to simplify and bring a simplified proposition to consumers. >> i could be confused by what you offered recently. $100 for ten lines. that seems good versus your competitors. the latest is the iphone offer for the 6 and 6 plus, as well. it's $50 for unlimited talk, text, data. >> we call it the best proposition for wireless. if you are a family, bring up ten devices and go at it with 20 gigabytes of data. if you are an individual, it's simpler. $50 a month, unlimited. go at it, all the text, all the data, all the talking. i think we simplify it. >> you are also potentially bringing prices down. some would say you are in a price war. at&t is repricing its entire base of customers in a way. t-mobile has been extraordinarily aggressive. john legere last night on cnbc said by the end of the year he will pass you, sprint, in customers. do you think that will happen? >> i think it's early to tell. we are focused on running a company profitable. we are running on having a better quality of customer. if you see their offers, they are aimed at bringing back profitability. we are not in the game of chasing t-mobile. >> how do you bring back profitability if you are cutting price, and i would assume, crimping your margins? >> we've done a couple of things on my fourth day on the job we basically brought some new offers. the new offers doesn't necessarily hinder profitability. the new offers make it simple for consumers to understand what we are offering. our value proposition wasn't clear in the past. we are making it simple. that doesn't mean we are going to hit profitability. on the second way to look at it is, i think we were letting a lot of customers into our network from a credit perspective and that just brings problems in the future. >> you've got $27 billion of debt on your balance sheet. while you have soft bank there it's not going to be the case they are going to unlimitedly fund you, so to speak. that you are boxed in when you've got verizon and at&t here and an incredibly competitive t-mobile. how do you succeed? >> i look at it differently. yes, we do have a lot of debt but we are generating good ebitda that allows us to have that sort of debt. when i look at a competitive perspective, there is room for everybody. this is the biggest market in the room. consumers are looking for a great value. that is what we are bringing to them. we've seen great things happening. >> when should i say let's sit down again. i want to talk and say whether or not the simplicity you interest deuce e introduced, when should i say you succeeded or it hasn't worked? >> i think it's going to take time. we should sit down every quarter and talk about how we are getting better and what areas we are getting better. we are attracting better customers. it's been a short period of time. we are focusing on the basics, the fundamentals of the business. that is a good start. this is a long journey. we've got to make sure that we have an appropriate customer to serve. we want to take advantage of something nobody else has. we have a great spectrum position. 160 megahertz. what consumers care about is data. data, you need capacity. with a respectable position we are privileged. that means we've got to work hard and build a network. >> even over three weeks you see improvement. you were living a nice life in miami, bright star, successful company, your company. an entrepreneur. plenty of money. why would you take this job? >> i think it's one, i like to be the underdog. this is a great job. sprint is a great company. the challenges help make sprint a greater company. i love challenges. i was luck write to sell my company to my largest shareholder of sprint. he identified i could be the leader for the next face of sprint. 43 years old running a company with 33,000 employees. >> only 43 years old. i've got a lot of road ahead of you. >> charlie erkin said of you, you are the right guy to go to war. is it going to be a war? >> you call it -- thanks, charlie, for that comment. every day we battle for consumers. so it's a battle. we market our products. we have three very tough competitors. we go every day to win this what thele. to win this battle. how many subscribers come and how many go away? the only thing that matters, we've got to get more customers coming to sprint. in the last couple of years, hasn't been the case. now we have a great challenge. we are only being measured by that. i must share we had a couple of days where we had more customers co coming and massa hasn't seen that since the day he bought sprint. we are telling consumers. it's very simple. when you see all this confusion, look at the total cost of ownership. how much does your phone cost? then compare us. i guarantee while i have this job, we'll have the best value for wireless every single day. >> you'll keep the company in kansas city? >> absolutely. that's where the heritage is. it's been there since 1899. we've got to make sure that's where it stays. >> marcelo claure, thank you for joining us. >> thanks for the opportunity. >> we hope to have you back every quarter. >> we will. we'll measure every quarter. >> great stuff. thank you very much. jim, your reaction to a company that's been behind the 8-ball for a while? >> to me, i think what's happening here is this is just the quintessential long game. it's the long game play. you know what? you and i both looked. who plays a long game? how about a 43-year-old? the guy's got time on his side, doesn't he? >> a moment of silence here at the new york stock exchange. kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money. kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab so i can reach ally bank 24/7, but there are24/7branches? it's just i'm a little reluctant to try new things. what's wrong with trying new things? feel that in your muscles? yeah... i do... try a new way to bank, where no branches equals great rates. the new york stock exchange and the nasdaq each about to observe a moment of silence and remembering those who lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks 13 years ago. it's a tradition, although the day is tough, people take comfort remembering at 8:46 a.m. american hit the north tower. they packaged these into a couple of moments of silence we'll get in about 45 seconds. it's a tough day. i was struck by one fact "the new york times" had this morning. kids in kindergarten on 9/11 are now in college. even though the memory is so fresh, it feels like it was not that long ago. >> it's cloudy today. there's been days where it's a clear day. it was the clearest day of all that day. i woke up and said it's cloudy. thank heavens. we just focus on them, not focus on that second we saw. >> the president and first lady are with the chairman of the joint chiefs at the pentagon today. they are going to lay a wreath not too long from now. of course, the president is expected to make comments around 10:00 a.m. eastern time. here is a moment of silence at the new york stock exchange. the president here at the pentagon this morning expected to seek around 10:00 a.m., some brief remarks after his comments to the nation last night regarding the broadening effort to combat isis. we might get a shot of the president walking here. if not, we'll bring you that later on in the morning. 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[ indistinct talking ] [ male announcer ] right there in their trading platform. ♪ so the magic shell went back to being a...shell. get live squawks right in your trading platform with thinkorswim from td ameritrade. live shot of the pentagon on this anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. they are playing the national anthem. you are watching cnbc "squawk on the street." we'll get the opening bell in about 20 seconds. it's tough to talk about stocks, specific stories on a day like this, jim, but it's what we do. we'll get you some of the news of the day in just a moment. there's the bell. a look at the s&p at the top of your screen. organizers of 9/11 day, national day of service and remembrance. and tuesday's children, fostering healing and families directly impacted by september 11, 2001. at the nasdaq, fdny, nypd, new york police fire widows fund. >> for those of us who knew people there, it takes your breath away and will always take your breath away. i walk by it every day andrea think about it every day. we just remember, reaching out again, everyone should reach out to anyone who lost someone that day. just do it. just do it. call them, e-mail them, write them. do it. >> one last note. i was struck by yesterday's move to give the congressional medal of honor to the three pentagon shenksville and here, the lost innocence. it's important to remember those 2,000 plus people. it's a good honor. let's talk business. a couple of interesting strategic moves by emc and jdsu as companies try to reinvent themselves. >> emc, new york post story, i thought that made sense to bring out value. vm wear is an excellent company. it is far more involved in the internet world than emc. jdsu which would stand for just don't sell uses then became just don't sue us for the crater. this makes sense. i love the piece, the marriage is over, who gets the kids? you are talking about a surface company, optical company. do you want the pieces? people have been crying for a break-up for a long time. it was shotgunned when it was put together during the hype. now it is starting to be more rational. neither business is all that exciting to me. once you split them up, holy cow, hidden value. >> once had a market cap of $100 billion. now $2 billion. they only save $50 million in cost savings on this thing. >> what you have to hope is the company is more focused on the service side of the business. when i look at jdsu, this has always been something people don't want to touch. it's almost like, it's not us, we didn't do it. maybe the good thing about it, they put behind who they are. get rid of the name jds. get rid of the name uniphase. i remember the merger. >> i think there has been a visceral reaction just to the ticker alone. >> i know. it's the cleveland browns going to baltimore. change your name. >> mcdonald's yesterday, news breaks they copyrighted the term mcbrunch. of course the web went crazy with that. >> it's mcdividend. when it got to 3.5%, people liked the dividend. it's funny, we were saying maybe this is your chance. my problem is, obviously, it is a bit of a bond until they figure this out. does mcbrunch move the needle? no. mcfresh, natural and organic moves the needle. you ate mcdonald's on the set the other day. does it taste better than chipotle? there are certain things that created -- there is a good article in "the new york times" about cereal and how it is creative to love it. they fool our taste buds, but they never can fool our bodies. >> "journal" had a good piece this week on the pop tart and kellogg's has seen it grow 32 years in a row. people are going organic but love their pop tarts. >> all of us had weaknesses. when i had the krispy kreme people on i said, how do you rationalize selling donuts? they said it's a treat. pop tarts can be a treat. how often a can you treat yourself before you are mistreating your body? >> exactly. twitter is down. >> just go buy it. these are anthony nodo actions. i love him. i've loved nodo for years. big convertible. >> this is one of the reasons i liked yahoo the whole run up. companies can reinvent themselves. twitter, remember all the stories about how they weren't able to monetize? i think twitter is becoming your personal newspaper. you follow what you want. i was talking to scott yesterday. i was thinking i want to follow namar to see if he is the guy wapner tells me he is. you don't have to tweet, which is the holy gray. >> canacord comes out with a buy. >> there is a huge amount of momentum here being figured out. we know that it has, the numbers are staggering. this idea of your facebook being yourself, twitter being your newspaper, that's the future. i thought read it. i like redit. redit you can personalize. for people not just of that ilk, i want to follow these stories. i want everything on isil. it's the smartest people i want to know about the toughest issues. >> i think twitter should package things like that. spotify packages a list for an italian dinner date. >> that's great. they are going to say maybe if you were more savvy, would you know it. i say, no, one of the things you have to do is make it for the people who are not savvy. that's what apple did. you're not that savvy? our computers are for the less savvy, which they are. i always found this operating system i have on my hewlett-packard to be harder than my apple system at home. >> one of the note on one of the biggest gainers of the year, kroger increasing guidance. comps looking better than we thought? >> here is why people have to understand. >> kroger, 4.8% comps. they increase guidance. goes to $3.22 to $3.28. whole foods is 25. whole foods is growing more slowly. that's why there is this convergence between kroger and whole foods. >> let's get to the president this morning at the pentagon. >> we count as blessed those who have persevered. secretary hagel, general dempsey, members of our armed forces and most of all the survivors of that september day and the families of those we lost, michelle and i are humbled to be with you once again. it has now been 13 years. 13 years since the peace of the american morning was broken. 13 years since nearly 3,000 beautiful lives were taken from us, including 125 men and women serving here at the pentagon. 13 years of moments they would have shared with us. 13 years of memories they would have made. here once more, we pray, for the souls of those we remember. for you, their families who love them forever. and for a nation that has been inspired by your example, your determination to carry on, your resolve to live lives worthy of their memories. as americans, we draw strength from you, for your love is the ultimate rebuke to the hatred of those who attacked us that bright blue morning. they sought to do more to bring down buildings or murder our people. they sought to break our spirit and to prove to the world that their power to destroy was greater than our power to persevere and to build. but you and america proved them wrong. america endures in the strength of your families, who through your anguish kept living. you kept alive a love that no act of terror can ever extinguish. you, their sons and daughters, are growing into extraordinary young men and women they knew you could be. by your shining example, your families turned this day into something that those who attacked us could never abide. that is a tribute of hope over fear and love over hate. america endures in the tenacity of our survivors. after grievous wounds, we learned to walk again and stand again. after terrible burns, you smiled once more. for you, for our nation, these have been difficult years, but by your presence here today in the lives of service that you have led, you embody the truth that no matter what comes our way, america will always come out stronger. america endures in the dedication of those who keep us safe. the firefighter. the officer. the emt who carries the memory of a fallen partner as they report to work each and every day, prepared to make the same sacrifice for us all. because of these men and women, americans now work in a gleaming freedom tower. we visit our great cities. we fill our stadiums and cheer for our teams. we carry on because as americans we do not give in to fear. ever. america endures in the courage of the men and women who serve under our flag. over more than a decade of war, this 9/11 generation has answered our country's call. three months from now, our combat mission in afghanistan will come to an end. today, we honor all who have made the ultimate sacrifice these 13 years. more than 6,800 american patriots, and we give thanks to those who served in harm's way to keep our country safe and meet the threats of our time. america endures in that perennial optimism. tomorrow there will be teenagers and young adults who were born after 9/11. while these young americans did not know the horrors of that day, their lives have been shaped by all the days since. time that has brought us pain, but also taught us endurance and strength. a time of rebuilding, of resilience and of renewal. what gives us hope, what gives me hope is that it is these young americans who will shape all the days to come. 13 years after a small and hateful minds conspired to break us, america stands tall and america stands proud. and guided by the values that sustain us, we will only grow stronger. generations from now, americans will still fill our parks, our stadiums, our cities. generations from now, americans will still build towers that reach toward the heavens, still serve in embassies that stand for freedom around the world, still wear the uniform and give meaning to those words written two centuries ago, "land of the free, home of the brave." generations from now, no matter the trial, no matter the challenge, america will always be america. we count as blessed those who have persevered. may god bless your families who continue to inspire us all. may god bless our armed forces and all who serve to keep us safe. and may god continue to bless the united states of america. >> that is the president using the words repeatedly "america endures" on this anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. the dow is down 55 points this morning. let's get to bob. >> we were weak overnight after jobless claims came out. the weakness is in the commodity xlengs. talking energy as well as material names in general. we are seeing pressure because look what commodities are doing. brent at a 17-month low. base metals are weak, as well. copper at a three-month low. zinc and aluminum trending to the down side. your big names like freeport and southern copper, bhp, rio tinto, they are down about 4%, 5% on the month. been a steady decline for most of these big names. oil and gas. i've been telling you about shale plays. even big names in the energy complex like chevron, for example, or pioneer or hess, for example, are also under pressure. they are not exempt from this decline we've seen in the commodities. elsewhere, airlines, well they are holding up pretty well. they are modestly on the up side. you can see not big gains today. want to talk about the ipo market. we'll have an interesting test tomorrow morning about whether there is an alibaba effect or not. talking about the idea perhaps alibaba is such a gigantic offering it will reduce interest in other ipos. we have a small one rewalk robotics. great idea, great company, but it's a small offering. we'll see if there is any kind of effect. a lot of people worry alibaba sucking the oxygen out of other ipos coming. we've finally got a tech ipo they announced. cyb cyber-arc software. they are going public on september 24th. about $70 million offer, $13 to $15. no u.s. tech names. i don't see go daddy saying anything. line, the big messaging system in japan. don't hear anything. those are the big names everybody is waiting for. silence until now. we have a big bank coming. the largest bank in colombia will be going up september 24th. big names coming. finally, the ipo etf is at a new high. there is some interest in ipos. down a little bit today, but new high. back to you. >> bob, thank you so much. david faber in the last half hour brought us that exclusive with marcelo claure, the new ceo of sprint, talking about the challenges for that company. take a listen. >> i like to be the underdog. this is a great job. sprint is a great company. the challenges help make sprint a greater company. i love challenges. i was lucky to sell my company to my largest shareholder of sprint. he identified i could be the leader for the next face of sprint. how lucky can i be, 43 years old, running a company with over 32,000 employees and one of the leading telcos in the world? >> crammer called it the quintessential long game. >> he didn't have an answer when i mentioned his age to him. first time we heard from him, of course. he does seem committed to the job. not a great deal of clarity there except the basic idea we are going to try to win customers by offering them a simple, straight forward value proposition to buy our service. >> one thing that confuses me, dan hessy said it's billions and billions that need to be spreen. money seems free when you are talking about for twitter. is money going to be forever free for sprint? >> good question, jim. right now you and i talk every morning when we look at the fixed income facts. you know from me that this company issuing this debt at this price, they can. $27 billion is a lot of debt. you've got to remember they've got an 08% owner. how much more do they want to throw in? how much more will be needed? scale is what this company wanted with potential merger with t-mobile. they did not get it. they are going to plan b which is to be very competitive on price. he said judge me every quarter. i'll be following this story as you will closely for years to come, perhaps, to see if sprint can make a go in what is becoming a much more competitive market. >> i love the interview. i kept thinking, why do i want to own this common stock? you basically are being told, look, we are just many years away, it's 20%, maybe there is a new product story or something exciting we don't know about. we talked about how the new phone apple has the spectrum for sprint is good in conjunction with apple. is there some trick to it we are not thinking about? >> i don't believe so. i think the trick eis trying to execute every day and get out there in the marketplace and offer a value proposition, simply put. i did ask claure about the new plan for the iphone and his expectation for the launch of the 6 and 6 plus. we'll have that in the next hour. guys, quickly, did want to get to a faber report, as well. change things completely from communications, if i can, back to the big battle i've been following for so long. we talk about often allergan versus val eant. we follow the continue consensus coming in. later today they will have reached 35% of the shareholders of allergan consenting to a special meeting. why is that important? you may recall allergan is trying to enjoin bill ekman voting their 9% stake in allergan in a special meeting. if that were to be the case ackman couldn't vote those shares, they have enough to meet the 25% threshold needed, that they need to meet by september 14th to call that special meeting. the company has not committed. they told us a date of december 18th. we shall see. when it comes back to allergan, if there is going to be a deal they try to pursue to perhaps use up that balance sheet in the past, something we talked about a lot, time is of the essence for them to a certain extent if they want to try to get something announced and perhaps closed prior to potential special meeting. again, they are at 35% or will be by the end of today. back to you guys. >> all right. david, thank you so much. great stop. we'll get stock trading with jim in a moment. s&p back down to 1990. how do you beat the number one seed? you just have to win 70% of your points at net. and keep unforced errors under 10%. on the ibm cloud, the us open analyzes 41 million data points from 8 years of competition to uncover key insights. data can help show you how to win, no matter what business you're in. today there's a new way to work. and it's made with ibm. >> hard to talk individual stocks, get fired up, gloomy day, sad day. but we do this. white wave, wwav a stock i like very much will be taken over by a beverage company. they do plant-based beverages. whoever buys them will become more natural and organic. the other, i think yesterday david did this terrific piece about cbs outdoors. facebook again is the way people are getting in touch. the news feed thing that zuckerberg came up, the advertisers love it. the advertisers just love it. you are reaching the people you want to reach on their personal page. >> targeting that outdoor can't begin to match. >> nobody can. >> i want guys in new york aged 25 to 30 who make x and recently bought a blender. >> remember half the people read the advertisement we don't know which half? 100% people in advertising know exactly who they are, the people in facebook. you are going to get a chance to buy it, i think, when the big mutual funds sells stocks to take in alibaba. they can't just sell amazon. they are going to sell other stocks that are growth stocks. i suggest i wait. i would not buy more here. wait until you get some selling off of what i see to be the deluge that is going to come from alibaba. you probably want to do the same thing for twitter. i'm itching to do it now. >> you really like that. what's coming up tonight? >> the money goes somewhere, basically do you just go back, forget? s yes. go to biotechs. isn't there more than gilead and biogen and celgene? we have them. >> that is a lot of homework. >> this piece we held off two weeks to get the homework done. >> can't wait to see it. >> families, everyone, sad day. no getting around it. >> no way around it. jim, we'll see you tonight, "mad money" 6:00 p.m. good morning, carl. the country digests what president obama said last night in his address to the nation, notably on syria, the former deputy treasure secretary robert kimmitt will downus live. we'll have a good look at lulu. on this day to remember, 13 years on, art cashin will join us. in a world that's changing faster than ever, we believe outshining the competition tomorrow requires challenging your business inside and out today. at cognizant, we help forward-looking companies run better and run different - to give your customers every reason to keep looking for you. so if you're ready to see opportunities and see them through, we say: let's get to work. because the future belongs to those who challenge the present. the president saying the u.s. will hunt down isis extremists wherever they are. is the new plan the right one? lululemon spiking as the stock spiked expectations. is now the time to buy? >> more of david faber's exclusive interview with the new ceo of sprint. first up, president obama. simon mentions lulu. beats by four cents. revenue raising their view after that terrible guidance in june. >> it's an interesting stock. let's bring in our research analyst. sam, welcome to the program. it's a heavily shorted stock. about a quarter of the float. you would expect to get a move like this on good news. is it a fundamentally a turning point? >> i don't think so. the total same-store sales were better. their brick and mortar, their own retail stores were down 5% on a comps basis. they are still opening a lot of stores. begin that probably 30% plus of their store base is less than three years old, they should be comping significantly better than that. they said traffic improved, but conversions were down. i think they lost a lot of customers to other people. they continue -- >> interesting. >> sorry. >> directly customers up about 30%. keeps the overall same store sales figure, for want of a better expression, constant. much has been made of the new fashion, more of a focus on street wear. potentially, is that a game changer? >> anything potentially is a game-changer. i think -- i've been of the mind for a long time the success of lululemon has been half product and half exceptional service for people to pay up for that kind of product. the problem that we see here, i think they are going to fix the product, but for people to pay that money for it, that service has to be exceptional. we haven't seen the exceptional service for over a year now. don't necessarily see that coming. we don't think they have the kind of leadership at the store level that they have with the product right now. the success is the combination. i think the overwhelming look towards product is missing half the conversation. >> sam, there's always the speculation about someone is going to come out there and buy it. nike perhaps. how does lulu look as an acquisition target? it got more attention recently because it's actually head quartered in canada. >> right. i think it's a culture game there it's very hard to sustain that culture if it gets bought by any number of people. i think it's much more complicated. it doesn't give them wholesale opportunity without the price going up significantly. >> the elephant standing in the room, the founder sold off half his stake to advent. he's not going to make a move for another year. what is your best investment at the moment on the space you cover? >> skechers and deckers and underarmour and nike. i think those companies are well positioned. >> thank you very much for joining us in the wake of lululemon coming through with results. the president outlining his strategy to defeat isis in that primetime address to the nation last night. take a listen. >> i made it clear we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country wherever they are. that means i will not hesitate to take action against isil in syria as well as iraq. this is the core principle of my presidency. if you threaten america, you will find no safe haven. >> so did the president make his sale for his new war on terror strategy? we pause this morning to remember the lives lost on september 11, 2001 and in the war on terror since. joining us this morning is form are deputy secretary bob kimmitt. good to have you with us this morning. >> good to be back. >> the response this morning is okay. we need specifics how this is going to work in syria, what you are going to need from the saudis. the white house says we are not going to telegraph our punches. what should we reasonably know? >> i think the white house has telegraphed a punch by saying no boots on the ground. i personally would never take anything off the table, even if there is not consideration of boots on the ground. i think this was an important speech. the president laid out key elements. i think the execution of this is left largely to his national security team and the national command authority chain of command. i think this is a speech that could have been given two or three months ago when members of his administration, including general dempsey, identified the need to go after isil in syria. i think now we have to make sure we are prepared to do whatever is necessary to go after this growing threat. >> two to three months ago, he might not have been able to make the pitch we had a coalition behind us. last night, there was another lack of specifics as to which countries those were and what their role would be. >> well, within the last three months, the isil coalition has grown to 50 countries contributing fighters to the isil cause. i'm glad the president is trying to build a coalition as we did successfully during the first gulf war in 1990, '91. it's important to have both friends in the region and allies around the world supporting this effort. the u.s. has unique capabilities. i actually think had we been prepared to use some of those unique capabilities in syria, showing that steadfastness of purpose, it would have been easier to put the coalition together. we needed to start moving forces to saudi arabia to show the seriousness of our purpose in 1990 to build the coalition we did in the first gulf war. >> let me pick up that seriousness of purpose point you make. clearly, the president last night was trying to project a very strong, a very determined military leadership. the leader in "the washington post" points out you only get the result you want in the region if, and that would be through fear and also through compromise, if it is believed that this country presents multilayer support. if you look at the three main components of that, his own party, gop or public opinion in this country, all three of those seem to be in flux at the moment, mr. secretary. i wonder how he pulls those together, more than just the words we got last night. >> that's what presidential leadership is all about, simon. whether it be franklin roosevelt taking a reluctant america into world war ii, george h.w. bush taking a reluctant america into the gulf war. presidents have to be proactive, including in their leadership of the public. we are celebrating today or commemorating the 13th anniversary of a horrible attack on the united states. we are also approaching the 25th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall, the end of the cold war that let loose many of these factors that we're dealing with today. i think we have to have a global strategy that has an important regional component. i think the president started laying that out last night. i think there is more to come, both in that region, the middle east, that has become increasingly more destabilized in the last 25 years. and we have to have an integrated strategy, political, economic and military. we heard a lot about the military strategy last night. i would like to see that more comprehensive strategy laid out more clearly. >> it's not just the middle east. one question we grapple with here is how do you look at this new landscape of elevated geopolitical risks? we are talking about obviously iraq and syria right now. what's going on, russia and europe are still trading back and forth sanctions, waiting on a scotland vote whether it will secede from the united kingdom. how should investors look at this? >> we are in a period of global transition now as significant as what we went through in '89 and '90 with tiananmen square, the fall of the berlin wall, the first gulf war. i would bring up china and all that is going on in asia. let's not forget major change in latin america, change we hope for the better in africa. i think, again, what you have to do is have a coordinated national security strategy that recognizes that our national security is based on the summation, the collection of our foreign plus defense, plus international economic policies all resting on a strong intelligence base. you are right. i think investors have to realize that this is a time of transition, a time that is producing turbulence. if i look at specific issues, for example, why is it that the middle east is the only region of the world without its own regional multilateral development bank? that makes no sense. underlying a lot of what we are seeing is the lack of opportunity for young men and women in the middle east. yet, it is a region that is bereft of the global approach to its economic recovery and its future. i think again, as we look at this, as the president talks about the military issues, both investors and the government look very closely at those crucial economic and financial components. >> even though that's aiming awfully high, we hear you. mr. secretary, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you, carl. >> let's get to dominic for a quick market flash. >> we are watching shares of orexigen therapeutics. its diet pill had received fda okay to sell in the united states. no word when it will be available or how much it will cost. shares down by 8% on the trade. only the third obesity treatment to win approval in more than a decade. it joins vivus and arena in the battle of the bulge. back to you guys. >> we'll keep an eye on it. a group of senators want burger king to scrap its move to canada, reigniting the tax inversion debate up next. we'll talk to the commerce secretary penny pritzker about inversions, what needs to be done in washington. 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he is. i take all this with a big pinch of salt. >> good point. the latest poll does show moving away from that yes vote after the momentum over the weekend. you did see the pound rebounding, reaching a low of 160. it is a risk. >> i thought it was fascinating. cameron's pitch going over that saying it's one thing to be frustrated and vote no or yes on anything, but this isn't one of those things you can redo four years later, this is for good. >> at the end of the day when they get into the polls, they will understand huge wealth transfers from southeast of england to scotland and they will be poorer on their own. it's the same as if people wanted to break away in the midwest. >> when we come back, a lot more of david faber's exclusive interview with the ceo of sprint. mp-starting business with startup-ny. an unprecedented program that partners businesses with universities across the state. for better access to talent, cutting edge research, and state of the art facilities. and you 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ways to help companies simplify the way work gets done and life gets lived. with xerox, you're ready for real business. after the president announced he is stepping up air strikes in syria, questions already about the u.s. economy's resilience and strength in american companies, let's get the white house view on the economy and corporate america. commerce secretary penny pritzker joins us live from washington where she is at the commerce department. good to see you, madam secretary. >> good to see you. >> i want to start with the price of oil. near $90 a barrel when we are talking about major instability in oil-producing regions. there is an energy revolution changing the entire dynamic here in this country on world prices. >> let me start saying this morning it's 9/11. it's a solemn day and we at the commerce department had a moment of silence at 8:46 to remember the lives lost and families touched by that loss. when you are talking about oil and the economy, first of all, let's look at what's happening with our economy. we have tremendous growth going on with 4.2% gdp growth, great job creation. oil as it is, we've got production up in this country, which is a reflection of the president's all of the above energy strategy and something that's been really good for american business. it's always been good for attracting foreign direct investment into the united states. we are pleased with what's happening with oil production here in the united states. >> you mentioned the 4.2% growth we saw in gdp. is that your view that that is going to be the sustainable kind of economy going forward here and that 104,000 jobs number in august was an anomaly? >> what we have to remember, we had 10 million jobs created since the great recession. our private sector is growing. you see manufacturing is up with over 700,000 jobs created in the manufacturing sector, manufacturing output is up. vehicle sales were up over 6% in august. home sales are up. you are seeing the economy growing across a number of sectors, exports. we had record exports from the united states. july was a record month at $198 billion. we are on track to meet, to grow exports greater than 2013. >> i don't mean to cut you off, but you've been touting exports a lot. are you not worried about the strength of the u.s. dollar? flexi flexing its muscles here. >> what i'm seeing, and i talk to over 1,300 business leaders around the united states. what i'm seeing is they are all interested in growing exports. and what i'm seeing in the travels we've done all over the world, whether it's in asia and africa, europe and other parts of the world, latin america, what we are seeing is there is demand for american goods and services. so i think there is a continuing opportunity for us to sell our goods. as i said, we have record $2.3 trillion worth of exports in 2013. we are on trend in 2014 to beat that number. so the long-term trends are good. >> just want to ask you about inversions. we are talking about how competitive the united states is, yet we are seeing major american companies like burger king redomecile in other countries. you are from the private sector in this cabinet. do you think it's unpatriotic of these companies and they should be banned retro actively from relocating to save tax money? >> i spent 27 years in the private sector. what i know is we need to address corporate tax reform. inversions is one piece of the issue. we have got to have comprehensive corporate tax reform. it's putting a number of our american companies in a competitive global disadvantage. we can't have that. we have great companies that are able to compete if they are on a level playing field. it's time. the president has been in favor of corporate tax reform. it's something i'm hopeful after the elections that congress will take up and address. >> all right. after the elections is the key. always good to see you. thanks for weighing in on the economy today. commerce secretary penny pritzker joining us from washington. >> terrific. thank you, sarah. on this day, cantor fitzgerald commemorates the employees lost in the 9/11 attacks by donating all revenues raised on the day to charities around the world. mary thompson is with one of the special guests. >> i am here with the gentleman who gave hockey fans around the world a big thrill early this spring in the stanley cup finals. henrik lundqvist, goalie for the new york rangers. you've been involved with this charity day for a couple of years now, is that right? >> yes. that's right. i've lived in new york nine years this. day means a lot for this city. for me as a european to come here and try to be part of it and help out and raise money for a great cause just feels really good. >> celebrities like yourself, sports stars like yourself come and you are actually raising money for specific charities. tell us about the charity you are raising money for. >> i've been involved as a spokesperson. now i'm starting my own henrik lundqvist foundation. focus is health and education for children all over the world. i want to reach kids in the new york area, but back home in sweden and other places around the world. it's exciting to start your own foundation, your own platform and try to develop a little bit more. i look forward to it. >> we are all looking forward to the next hockey season. training camp starts next week. how do you feel going into this season? >> i feel good. now is the time you get really excited for next season. you work out harder. you're on the ice a lot more. it's hard to believe camp is only a week away. i feel really good about the team. obviously, coming from a great year last year as a group we can build off that. we have a couple new players i hope will fit in well. here we go again. i look forward to that. >> what are your chances about reaching? what do you think the rangers' chances are of reaching? >> we have a great chance. there are a lot gf teams. it's important to start over, start fresh and leave last year behind us and really just focus on having a good camp and good start in october. then you start building. i think last year showed it is a process to reach your top level. it won't be there right away, but you have to take it step by step. step one for us is a good training camp here. >> henrik lundqvist, thank you for join us today. good luck raising money for your charity. >> thank you very much. >> we've been speaking with henrik lundqvist, new york ranger goalie. >> mary, thank you very much. mary thompson. we are down 51 points on the dow. art cashin will join us next. whenwork with equity experts who work with regional experts that's when expertise happens. mfs. because there is no expertise without collaboration. markets are slightly lower. this is always a tough day but we get through it what do we make of the inactivity, number of days we have not had a dramatic move. is this time different? >> i think people are still concerned about the general complexities. we've got geopolitical events and near geopolitical events. markets seem to shrug them off for now looked like we were setting up for a little bit of a topping process over the past several days with the way the market acted. they threw us a curve. we are back at that very important 1990 level. >> is that where the line was? >> it has been. it was key support. they broke it. they got down to about 1982 or so where they didn't break 1980. it was like a one-two domino you need to get done. it was unresolved. >> i'm sorry, the action is in the currency market. dollar/yen back to $1.07. as a result you are seeing all this pressure on oil at a time you would think would you see higher prices. >> i don't know how the multinationals are going to hold up if the dollar shows this strength. some brokerage firms are going around offering clients lists if you need to be in the s&p, you might want to hedge out or exempt certain companies that have exposure to europe on a negative basis because of where the dollar is. >> that s&p chart on the screen is interesting. you had an up trend. >> it seemed to hit and for a variety of arcane technical reasons, it looks like you might be setting up a topping process. they threw us a curve ball yesterday. you won't know for a week or so. if they break 1980, you will be setting up a big press. >> the talk from the san francisco fed on monday that the fed might be about to change its language, albeit incrementally next week. >> i don't think that will be a surprise really. they've been dying to get out of the timing process. >> it's beginning to lift the yields. >> it needs to move up. they wanted to get out of the wording of timing. just as they found themselves trapped by setting the original goals. yes, we might move when the unemployment rate gets to -- whoops, wait a minute, we didn't mean it literally. they didn't want to get stuck in another literal trap. i don't know they will say we are going to go sooner rather than later. they want to get away from the timing issues. >> 9/11. the president made comments about kids who are teenagers now born back then. they don't remember it. their days will be colored by all the days since. recollection as fresh as if it happened yesterday? >> absolutely. in the days that followed, the only smiles down here in wall street were the photographs on the missing posters that the family put up. people trudged here to work. the president, the governor, the people at the federal reserve said we need to reopen the market to keep the economy moving. it became a duty. it's a completely different world. would you hit check points where there would be a national guardsman. people would not bristle or complain, simply say thank you and move on. >> yet on the day itself you tell the tale of moving towards the east side of manhattan to the brooklyn side. describe to me the scene, if you would. >> we left the building here. my son and i were walking. if we could get over to the east side we could walk to 38th street and get a ferry to new jersey. on the way, we met two ladies who were lost standing about in high heels and coughing. we had prepared some wet terry cloth towels and gave them to them so they could breathe. we walked east to get away from what was going on. to our surprise, when we hit the east river, there was a make shift flotilla of speed boats and fishing trawlers and a variety of other things. they held up signs, going to manhattan island, going to brooklyn. if you went in that direction, you went over and climbed onboard. everybody thankfully and unfortunately silently went to wherever they were. we made it back to the foot of jersey city and the colgate clock and walked four miles to get home. >> one last point. we didn't think anything of how we looked, but the people in new jersey were staring at us. then finally, i looked deeper at my son and realized we were covered with ash. we looked like two statues standing there. >> we are going to recall these memories every year, and we should. thank you. >> art cashin. the business of this network is financial data, analysis and asset markets. we have breaking data from the eia. >> good morning to you, simon. we are bringing that data later because the traders on the floor at the nymex taking another moment of silence in remembrance of 9/11. the doe did release its new. we saw a build in natural gas of 92 billion cubic feet last week. that was more than traders were expecting. numbers were down this morning, prices that is. they dropped about 7 cents on that number. traders are saying we are above the five-year average. above where we were in terms of storage at this time last year. this is all good news as we are heading into the fall and winter and those colder temperatures are on the way. we are looking for temperatures hopefully mother nature will cooperate and stay a little bit stable in this period. if we could get build in that 100 cubic range that could be positive for nat gas. they could continue from here. >> thank you. let's send it to dominic. >> two speciality chemical makers teaming up. eastman chemical is going to buy taminco for $26 a share. both shares are still halted right now. still, you can see eastman chemical and taminco shares having action associated with them. >> more of the exclusive interview in sprint. i'm type e. my golden years will not just be gold plated. i had 3 different 401(k)s. e*trade offers rollover options and a retirement planning calculator. now i know "when" i'm going to retire. not "if." my motheit's delicious. toffee in the world. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. are we still on for tomorrow? tomorrow. tomorrow is full of promise. we can come back tomorrrow. and we promise to keep it that way. csx. how tomorrow moves. what a day. can't wait til tomorrow. this guy could take down your entire company.h? stay with me. on thursday a hamster video goes online. on friday it goes viral - a network choking phenomenon. why do you care? he's on the same cloud as your business. the more hits he gets, the slower your business may get. do you want to share your cloud with a hamster? today there's a new way to work. and it's made with ibm. in a we believe outshining the competition tomorrow requires challenging your business inside and out today. at cognizant, we help forward-looking companies run better and run different - to give your customers every reason to keep looking for you. so if you're ready to see opportunities and see them through, we say: let's get to work. because the future belongs to those who challenge the present. take a look at the energy sector trailing the broader s&p. dom is back at hq with more on that. tough times for oil. >> the trend continues here. energy stocks are the weakest stocks in the s&p 500 as a group. oil prices continue to slide here. off from 7% of its highs we saw in late june. a steep pullback. leading the way lower are nabors industry. cabot oil and gas, chesapeake energy, denbury resources, range resources. a whole swath of these energy companies to the down side today. month to date it is down about 5%. >> in the meantime, david faber sat down with the new ceo of sprint today. david joins us from that conference. it's a big interview, david. >> yeah. interesting to speak to marcelo claure who has taken over sprint, running it about a month after dan hessy stepped down. they are now involved in trying to grow this company organically and stem what has been an outflow of customers. one key component perhaps in their attempts to try to bring back customers and actually get things to flatten if not start to grow in terms of subscriber role is the new introduction of the iphone. iphone 6 and 6 plus. i asked claure whether he thought this would be a significant introduction not just for apple, but for sprint. >> we've been pretty clear. we think it will be the most successful launch ever of an iphone. we are the only one putting a rate plan for the iphone p. you can bet we feel very comfortable with the iphone. we made it simple, 50 only with an iphone 6. talk all you want. text all you want and go at it with all the data you want. that is a statement we are making. we feel comfortable this is going to be a great phone. >> also offering this unlimited iphone for life plan. sounds good. i don't know exactly how it would work. is it something you think consumers will gravitate towards? >> we guarantee use for $20 a month. pretty much every two years, come back, drop off your iphone and pick up a new iphone. $50 unlimited and $20 for iphone for life, for $70, you get an iphone you can use all you want. when compared to the competition, it's a world of difference. you are talking about saving thousands of dollars over competition. that's why we encourage customers, before you commit to anything, look at sprint. add two basic things. you have service and your phone. add it together, we are in business to make sure we give you the best value. >> that is what they are focused on, keeping it simple and what they view will be the best value. they have a long hill to climb here competing with the likes of t-mobile, not to mention at&t and verizon. back to you. >> it's $50 for the telecon package and $20 extra for iphone for life. i told you i was looking for a new phone. i went into t-mobile over the weekend. they are offering, i think from memory, about $19.99 with no contract. sprint is clearly what is with t-mobile in terms of pricing. >> the no contract, we talked yesterday, is quite attractive. he is saying for $70 a year, you have a new iphone for life. for that, you are also going to be able to use it however much you want, however many minutes. how much data. what does that do to margins? in our earlier conversation i asked claure about that. he really would not say that it was going to crimp their profitability. time will tell. >> certainly a lot of ambition there. david, thank you very much. david faber with that interview with the new ceo of sprint. the future of nfl commissioner roger goodell in question after the ray rice controversy takes a new twist. should he step down? what did the nfl know? the league hired former fbi director robert muller to lead an interest investigation to the handling of evidence of the ray rice domestic violence case. this after they placed a copy of this infamous nfl video inside nfl headquarters as early as april. joining us to discuss the controversy and potential fallout is rick horrow, a sports business lecturer. it's good to have you back. good morning. >> thank you, sir. >> you worked with goodell 15 years. he is under the gun. what determines whether he stays or goes? >> let's remember, a lawyer has to provide some reasonable breathing room on this issue. no one, no one excuses how this is all done. frankly, we already understand if it was in the nfl office by april, it's bad management. what did roger know and how did he know it? inconceivable he could give somebody a two-game suspension as the law an enforcement commissioner having seen that video. you don't know. the fact an investigator has been hire as robert muller, but he has been involved against the nfl. with the rooney pittsburgh steeler family involved against nfl. they have a lot of incentive to make sure the investigation is credible. my take is wait until the investigation is done. hopefully this doesn't take long and then just avoid a rush to judgment. that's really important. >> yeah. we know the impact would be felt -- might already be felt among female fans. we know nike dropped ray rice. do you think, i know you're not a stock analyst or an analyst of publicly traded companies, do you see risk to apparel here? is nike under the gun here as well? >> i have a diverse staff and they are all very emotional and incendiary as well. dropping the fantasy league as. women fans need good answers. we don't know what the answers are. 40 million play fantasy. $5 billion operation. retail. sponsorship all at risk but not at risk if the process is done well and the good thing is the nfl made this decision with very quick deadline on it, 11:00 last night appointing the most credible person they could find and let's make sure the investigation carries the day no matter what happens. >> rick, i wonder if you could help us understand perhaps why they were so slow in moving in the first place. i'm fascinated so much is hung on the commissioner who at the end of the day behind him stands these hugely wealthy many of them billionaires running a very profitable sport that he has to take into consideration. if he's going to create on the hoof as it were or spur of the moment laws and rules that will have huge implications for when you have to sack potentially star movers moving forward. the guy doesn't operate in a vacuum and would not have done at any point through this surely. >> social media made this even more difficult as we understand because we all have an opinion about this within 30 seconds of seeing it. it's a terrible video. ray rice should be suspended indefinitely if not longer. the bottom line is he knew about this in april we're all in serious trouble as far as the nfl is concerned and if he knew about it and acted very quickly then people will under. it's all about the investigation. the owners, by the way, the value of the steelers about a billion three, the giants about a billion eight. those two owners have reasons to protect their brand as well. the nfl can hire as many people as they can but there's a timeline discrepancy on how they can get this tape relevant to the ongoing investigation and criminal charges. that will come out over time which is why you should avoid the rush to judgment. that's the point. >> the longer it goes, rick, could you see some damage to the nfl itself in terms of advertising contraction. this is a blow-out business. >> of course. they have to approve the buffalo bill sale. they have to have their ongoing owners meeting. you got domestic abuse issues of two others that's in the commissioner's lap. how will he rule on this. if this goes on for months we have a major issue. if it's resolved in weeks, it depends on how it's resolved. >> rick, last question. you know when they went after the saints and payton the thinking was look you're at the top of the chain it's ultimately your responsibility. is that stance, should that be mirrored as it applies to goodell and the nfl. >> the payton issue there were warnings there. knock it off. they didn't knock it off. if roger goodell knew about this we have an entirely different opinion. i've worked with him for 15 years. there's no sympathy there if he knew from me or anybody else. the whole issue is he's pretty clear to say he didn't know so let's see what the investigation uncovers. >> rick, thanks for your time. >> any time. >> let's get over to dominic chu. the market down 70 points. >> dow is down 70. check out eastern chemical and taminco. taminco is $26.57 trading above the bid price. for eastman chemical up by 1.25%. a big deal on the chemical side of things. >> thanks. kayla has a look at what we can expect at the top of the hour. >> we do have a big hour for you guys. we're talking to the acting executive leading pay pal about how that company plans to stand its ground with apple moving on to the payment turf. also have yahoo's executive talking about what that company is building in terms of development ahead of the iwatch. what does john ledger think about this. we'll tell you exactly what he had to say. that's all coming up on squawk alley. dad,thank you mom for said this oftprotecting my future.you. thank you for being my hero and my dad. military families are uniquely thankful for many things, the legacy of usaa auto insurance could be one of them. if you're a current or former military member or their family, get an auto insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life. i make a lot of purchases foand i get ass. lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards, even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can. the long time chairman of ferrari stepping down after that public disagreement with fiat and chrysler owner about the performance of formula one and a wave of outrage from italian that are enthusiasts. good morning robert. >> reporter: my inbox has been filled with ferrari owners and collectors outraged about this. ferrari posted its earnings today first half hitting a record $185 million euros for the first half. that was terrific. ferrari owners and fans not as happy with luca leaving yesterday. the chief of formula one saying his leaving for me is the same as enzo ferrari dying. some other comments i received, catastrophic. another says ferrari, 60 to 0 in three seconds. the greatest brand in the world just got ruined and the last and my favorite coming soon from sergio a ferrari suv. we don't have word that ferrari is planning a suv. this shows you got race fans, ferrari buyers, collectors who are spending millions on these cars. they are all worried that fiat will take this to be a mass brand rather than a special brand that it is today. guys, back to you. >> or alternatively i heard they might ipo it. they will launch chrysler fiat here next month but further down the line they spin off from ferrari. >> that's another rumor. that's been on the table for at that long time. >> a crown jewel for fiat as well. >> absolutely. >> thanks very much. >> less than a minute to go. dow down 62, going for a string of losses first week we have seen thant long time. >> good morning. it is 8:00 a.m. out west, 11:00 a.m. on the east coast. "squawk alley" is live. ♪ welcome to "squawk alley". joining us this morning, founder, editor ceo of business insider. henry great to have you back. and kayla is here as well as we get started talking about apple. not all retailers are convinced apple pay will work. there are no plans to use apple pay with best buy saying the cost of supporting near field communication too high. square,
peak of their careers will get a federal appointment and move sideways into the federal judiciary. so there's a lot to be said for this idea. but the problem is it contradicts the idea of having the career civil service model where you start off as a junior person in the very lowest court and work your way up. because the whole point of having these sort of experienced dignified people is they're going to start off at a relatively high level, and not want to start out in the low courts making 5 kwi a month. so there's some contradiction there that needs to be worked out. the decision also calls for a significant reform in the court system. and both of these are apparently designed to address the law of local protectionism. courts at a given administrative level tend to be answerable to political authority at the same level. because their personnel appointments are controlled at that level and their funding is controlled at that level. so they're not subject to any meaningful control from superior courts. and again, that's different from, say, the system in japan, where the supreme court operates not only as a court of final appeal but sort of as an administrative body. naturally, because of this system of local authority, courts tend to protect any party that local political authority wants to protect. for example, prominent local businesses. the chinese legal community has for a long time thought of this as a big problem and proposed various ways of addressing it. one thing that came out of it is to establish a circuit tribunal with jurisdiction over several provinces. at the moment the top court is the supreme people's courts. there's a proposal to establish some courts that will cover several provinces. there is a misconception about this, though, which is that these are similar sort of to american circuit courts, that is, they would be a level of a court below the supreme court, and above the existing courts. that's not what's contemplated. in fact, they don't even use the word court, they use the word tribunal, which tells you that that is really going to be a branch of the supreme people's court. and therefore, any decision of those courts is going to be a decision of the supreme court and not of sort of a lower-level court. then there's another slightly different proposal, which is to actually establish another layer of courts. a fifth layer, that would cross jurisdictional boundaries, and then we'll try cases across jurisdictional. it's important to keep the two reforms straight. now, one thing that's very interesting about the communique is, again, and i'm sorry to say, one of the things that it doesn't say, i won't only talk about what it doesn't say, this thing in particular is interesting of what it doesn't talk about, and that is a proposal that was mooted at the third planeem to centralize court appointments and financing up to the provincial level. not beyond, but at least up to the provincial level. at any given province it would be at the provincial level about the appointments of personnel and finances. this was very explicitly with the idea of reducing the problem of local protectionism. so, you know, if it happened at the provincial level, of course, it's not going to get rid of it. but i think a lot of the local protectionism takes place at the local level, not at the provincial level. there was this proposal for it to happen. there was some experimentation in shanghai about putting this into practice. and northt a peep about the decision in the decision. i'm told it's not so popular among judges. one reason is apparently that judges fear that a more kind of hire arcual system of authority of decision in general will increase the power of the court leaders over them. and maybe their power is enhanced by moving sideways, and therefore, they can sometimes talk back to the leadership of the court. i'm not sure about that. the other thing which rings much more -- seems much more plausible is that judges in prosperous areas fear that putting court finances under a higher administrative authority would mean a kind of leveling out. so a unified salary scale for all judges within a given province, is going to mean either, you know, raising the salaries of judges in poor areas, or lowering the salaries of judges in rich areas. and they're afraid it's going to mean lowering the salaries of judges in rich areas. so certainly odd that this reform seems to have stalled. and that's odd and kind of unfortunate. finally, the decision denounces attempts by leading officials to interfere with court cases. this is, again, a big problem and calls for the establishment of keeping track of such attempts. i think this is a meaningful reform and ambition, but not so much an implementation, because they haven't changed the system of incentives for judges. the same system for incentives for judges that makes them responsive to these attempts by officials to interfere, is going to make them reluctant to report, you know, on these attempts to interfere, and record them in the big black book of interference attempts and then pass them on. so without a change in the system of incentives facing judges, it's hard to see how any traction will be achieved on this reform. the same decision elsewhere stresses the importance of the legal -- the political legal committee, and that is a party body that exists at all levels of the party. and that supervises basically the democratic dictatorship. the courts, police, procureci, and they regulate lawyers as well. so it calls for party organization in all political legal bodies, that includes courts, to report important local matters to the local party committee. so on the one hand you're saying, let's enhance party control over the courts, let's enhance the court of the political legal committee over the courts, and on the other hand you're trying to minimize it. it's not clear how that's going to be resolved. certainly one would have to be incredibly naive to think that li's case was decided solely by the judges who presided at the trial, and nobody in the ap appellate bureau is going to touch that. one has to doubt the sincerity of those moves. okay. there's a couple of minor reforms, but i think i'll skip over them just for purposes of time here. and talk a little bit about implications for u.s.-china relations. and so the way to think about this is to say, what are some of the irritants in the u.s.-china relations related to the legal system and might be affected by legal reforms? intellectual property. it shows an effort, even if imperfectly realized, to professionalize the courts and reduce the influence of local power holders in their operations. i should say, another thing that does not appear in the fourth planem is kind of the populist language that has appeared recently in discussions about the legal system. criticisms of judges for being too professional, for applying the law to kind of mechanically, things like that. again, a little bit mysteriously it's not in the document. perhaps in some way, is perhaps a repudiation of a recent turn to populism and maybe a return to valuing of professionalization in courts, which i think is probably a good thing. so i think this reduction in local protectionism and increased professionalization has got to be good in general for intellectual property protection. since in many cases, you know, the violators are enter prizes with with influence at the local level but not necessarily at higher levels. you've got a particular factory pirating dvds. they're employing local people and paying taxes to the local officials, perhaps bribing the local officials, but that's not going all the way up to the provincial level, that's just at some small town level. if you move control over courts upwards, then i think it's much more possible for people to move against those -- against intellectual property violators. so obviously none of this is going to make a difference if ip infringement rises to the level of state policy in some areas, but that's not all cases of ip infringement, or of that kind. there have been some complaints about selective enforcement of anti-monopoly of other laws and u.s. foreign businesses recently. the u.s. chamber of commerce recently issued quite a detailed report on this, talking particularly about the acts of the national development and reform commission, who seems to be the main target. and so i have a long summary here, but i don't have time obviously to go into it at this point. but i guess i would just say that there's not much in the fourth planem of decision, because the problem of selective enforcement, and perhaps enforcement isn't even the right word since many times these companies are being told, don't call your lawyers, so they're not really interested in a legal analysis, it's more of the southern sheriff approach, how much you got, son? not much in the fourth planem, because it's not about enforcement of law through administrative agencies. a lot of it is measures they're talking about centers on the court system and not so much about the everyday actions of administrative agencies in enforcing law. another area of irritation is extradition of officials charged with corruption. you know who fled to the u.s. and china says, why would you want these people? why don't you give them back to us? why does the u.s. want them? they don't. canada, you know, the canadian government tried for a long time to get rid of chin. many times we have different branches of government, we have genuine separation of powers. so even the executive can't always do what it wants to do. the problem here, of course, is that china and the u.s. don't have an extradition treaty, and unlikely ever to have an extradition treaty and unlikely anyone will be extradited without a treaty. some of the problems are, you know, will the u.s. justice system feel that the defendant will be granted adequate due process in china. in addition, you have the problem of the u.n. torture convention, which forbids signatory members to be extradited to the place where, i believe the language is substantial grounds for believing there is a danger of them being tortured. this is a problem in the chinese legal systems. official chinese sources have themselves characterized torture as widespread, deeply entrenched, stubborn illness, malignant tumor. there's all sorts of language like this. there's a recent report for the u.n. commission on human rights who have looked at this issue. there are serious problems there. and it makes it very difficult to extradite people. nothing in the fourth agenda that addresses the problem of torture by police. and so i don't see any prospects for reduction in that area. finally, i would say to conclude with a look at human rights in general, again, i don't see much in the way of prospects for improvement in this area, in the fourth planem decision. there might be some outside the decision, but not in the decision. we do have proposals to make the judiciary more professional. you know, less subject to the influence of local power holders. and those are all good things. but i don't think they really have much in the way of implications for the -- on the issue of human rights. the fourth planm decision makes clear that the primary loyalty is to the party. >> two questions before we open it up. if you have questions for each other, for the audience. having had these discussions with both american and chinese critics now for about 30 years, many chinese friends, and some historians i've spoken to, said that some of the things that we criticize chin o being corrupt about, our officials also gain, but do it through ways that are now legalized through mechanisms, their children can go to top schools because they're legacies, they have ways of protecting their wealth, that part of the story of going from the age of boss tweed to the current day has been elite's finding legal mechanisms for protecting theirs. when the chinese do the same thing, they can be accused of being corrupt. i was thinking of that critique in light of something that jeremy berma wrote recently. he said in the anti-corruption campaign, xi jinping has not yet gone after any of the second generation of the red founders of china, or the leading officials from the early stages of the people's republic. do we see in tandem with the anti-corruption campaign, or in connection with the legal reforms, do you see any ways that the group of families of which xi jinping is a representative are actually protecting or legalizing any of their prerequisites? is there any process of that ongoing in corruption of the legal angle? >> interesting question. why don't you start while i'm thinking. >> so i just blythely jump on. if you look at china more generally, looking beyond the current anti-corruption campaign, china faces a real challenge in that a generation ago there was no wealthy class in china. one of the by-products of rapid economic development, and that the chinese economy is as big or bigger than the american economy is, there's a whole new strata of wealthy chinese. many of whom are linked through blood or marriage to the political elite. now, the popular response is to assume that the princelings all got there through nefarious way of inside connections, et cetera. maybe i'm a cynic, but we've got a whole strata of those in the united states as well. no criticism of chelsea clinton per se, but i'm pretty sure when she got a job at a hedge fund, it wasn't three weeks into the job that someone said, your dad's who? you know, we have the similar situation where the sons and daughters of elites, as robert alleges, they have advantages getting into top schools. they're often very bright. they often work hard. and for us, this is normal. they go to wall street. they become investment bankers, et cetera. for china, this is all new. and i think the more general thing that china needs to be sorting out, it's not only the problem of corruption, but also the relationship between power and wealth. they're not separate. they're not separate in most economies. and yet in china, the merger is messier. the separation is more imperfect. and now i hope don has a good legal answer to the question that i've -- that i'm trying to struggle with on the fly. >> no, i don't have -- that's an excellent question, and it's worth thinking about, is there some way that the kind of second generation has figured out to entrench their privileges in a non -- you know, in a not so obvious way. so i don't have a good answer for that. but i do want to sort of address an earlier point of yours, which i think is quite -- i mean, it's a good point that, you know, i think if we look at any society, we will find that somehow the rich and powerful find ways to transmit their wealth and power to their offspring. and so i think if one looks at chinese corruption as way of answering the question, is china uniquely bad, that's silly. that shouldn't be the question. i think really, it's the -- the issue, you know, when i look at corruption, say, from a legal standpoint, is, what is the government doing about it, what is the government allowing other people to do about it. so for example, if you think about the corruption in the united states in taminy hall, who was it who exposed hall, was a corruption effort by the government? no, it was muck raking newspapers. one has to ask whether those institutions are allowed to exist such that chinese people could make their own informed decision about what kind of privileges do they think are okay, and what kind of privileges do they not think are okay. >> let me just add one other thought. paradoxically, the people who have a real vested interest in creating legal protections for property rights might well be the hong ar die. they don't want to be subjected to arbitrary confiscation because their mother or father on the political side has gotten into trouble. if you look at pressure from the property reform, it might come down from the top down in a strange backward manner. >> you mentioned human rights concerns, don. i was listening to andy's presentation, that in general it seems when americans hear about the cases of dissidents in china, human rights questions, and we hear about what happens to no sho boa, or any number of other dissidents who get locked up, and we hear the legal, or quasi-legalistic claims of people that they did this following thing. todi was provoking sedition. and they go into a non-legal disappeared status. we say this is horrible, this is clearly false, why aren't they getting due process. but when the same legal orator can say they have several tons of rmd, we seem to are more inclined to take those claims at face value. and then these people are subsequently sort of disappearing into some extra legal system. is there any kind of double standard at work, or what is -- what criteria should we look for when we're judging the claims about evidence or guilt or innocence that come out of the chinese government in these various cases? we seem to look differently at the claims about corruption and those leveled against dissidents in human rights cases? >> i would like to point out that before you said that, you had already blown the whistle on shong way as legalized kidnapping -- well, unlawful detention under chinese law. and extremely problematic. that is what is used against allegedly corrupt officials. but it's a huge problem, because, of course, not everybody corrupt is actually corrupt. and the people who run the internal party system are not necessarily well trained in investigative techniques. they don't know how to trace trails of assets from clever people who have been hiding them. so you resort to the next best thing, which is the rubber hose. and so i think that accounts for a lot of the maltreatment that takes place within the shong we system. but i think it's -- you know, sometimes we can have an idea about the substance of the charges. you know, whether they make sense or not. whether they really exist. do we -- you know, is it fair to just -- for example, one of the current charges against pud re chong, the lawyer, is, stirring up trouble and provoking disturbances. that's not as vague as it sounds. that's just the name of a crime. but when you look at the criminal law, there's actually some conditions that have to be met. and there's a supreme people's court document which makes it even more precise. what conditions have to be met to commit this crime. so in fact, the government can't just say, oh, you're just stirring up trouble. they have to say, you did a, b or c. it's really impossible under the facts as we know them, to find that but chong did a, b or c, because it lists very specific things that have to be met. but often we're not necessarily going to do know those facts. but definitely we can look at procedure. for example, has the government made the trial open? stirring up trouble and provoking disturbances, there's no state secrets involved in that. the supreme court, people's court has been saying -- and chinese law has been saying since, you know, 1979, the court organization law says all trials should be open. but everybody knows you can't just walk into a chinese court, right? even though trials are supposed to be open. so if trials that don't have any plausible reason to be closed are open, then that's reassuring. if people are genuinely allowed to be represented by the lawyer of their choice, which, again, is allowed under chinese law, if witnesses are required to testify in court, which, again, is required under chinese law, even though in criminal cases it basically never happens, so i think we could look at a way of avoiding this issue of, can we really know, right, to what extent are they guilty. we can look at the other question and say, if there's a good case, why can't the government follow its own procedural rules. i think one could ask at least that much. with respect to corrupt officials as well. i think people like kong, he's just been disappeared and we haven't heard anything about him. i think kong deserves a fair process. >> i tend to agree with robert. there is a double standard being applied. when i read about a case, my natural sunls is, of course, they're guilty. in fact, we should not assume that. and certainly the way the process works, where you're basically detained by the party, and you are detained until such time as they decide you are ready to move on. either you're ready to move on to your trial, or you're ready to remain in detention. i know from reading some of the confessions, you get the impression that six months, eight years into indefinite detention, people are willing to confess to anything in order to get their case moved out of the party disciplinary system, and into the court system. one of the patterns you see is people get to court and they want to repudiate their confession. and they say, i merely confessed in order to get to the court so i could deny my confession, and of course, what does the court turn around and do, you can't repudiate. i think it is true, that we do tend to assume without too much question that people detained by the party are guilty. in fact, if you look at the numbers, that isn't actually true. i gave you earlier the number of cases that were filed. there's an earlier stage in which the prosecutor -- the procurator accepts the case. in the old days, about half of those who were initially investigated never ended up with an indictment. what i assume, and what i've been told is that a lot of those people end up getting an administrative punishment, a warning, a demerit, a demotion, et cetera, because it was determined they haven't committed a major offense. what we don't know within that block how many people actually get off because the procure rater determines they are not actually guilty of anything. i think you're absolutely right, when it hits the discipline inspection website and it's announced so-and-so is under investigation for serious disciplinary violations by the gway, my natural assumption is, oh, they're obviously guilty. but it's a reflex that i suppose we probably need to avoid. >> of course, the most important question of the study of chinese law is when we have a different word for procure -- >> two syllables. >> no, we stick with it. the harder it is to pronounce the more we keep the unwashed out. >> let's open it up. if you raise a hand, we'll be happy to pass a microphone your way. yes? >> thank you. thank you, professors. fascinating. i have two questions, one for professor weedman. i have to take the no fear act review for federal employees. and i'm wondering if there's any kind of whistleblower protection within the legal system, or within any kind of parallel system? and if you don't mind, professor we'derman, a short question, are there any corruption hot spots? are they generating more numbers even according to your official sources than other provinces, or is it fairly evenly distributed? thank you. >> i'm not aware of any formal law that provides protection for whistleblowers within government agencies that expose wrongdoing, or something like that. >> it does appear that the campaign has fallen somewhat unevenly. the problem with trying to say where it's falling most heavily is, you've got two choices. you can kind of do it as a kind of art, which is, you know, you read the individual cases, and you start guessing, well, you know, my sense is it's hit pretty hard in gongdong and shonshi. hubai looks like it's gotten a lot. that's just my impression of reading it. you really need to get the annual numbers from the -- that will come out with the work reports, which will be filed in march. i haven't looked at the ones from 2013 at this point. but yeah, it's uneven. exactly what explains the uneven pattern, i have not had a chance to really think about, or to analyze. >> yes, sir? >> you talked about it's political. so looking forward, do you think it's going to be more political and more principled? it seems to me if you want to sustain a campaign, it has to be principled. thank you. oh, and if i can just ask robert, the chinese are looking at sort of the k street, former officials, you know, lobbying for inferences. that was like corruption after retirement. many chinese officials were corrupt before they retired obviously. thank you. >> it's a timing issue. >> i agree with you, that the -- to sustain the anti-corruption drive over a long period of time, the principled has to take over from the political. at some point the political side can be dangerous. it can generate a backlash. you can push things in directions that you might not want to go. my own view is this, the principle part is the bulk of it. you look at the cases and they make up the most visible, the most exciting part of the campaign. the really boring campaign is the day in and day out trench warfare, war of attrition against mid and low-level corruption. that's been going on for a long time. xi jinping escalated that back in 2012. i think he'll continue to keep that up. but i would see at some point the political side would have to begin to fade somewhat. i think it will never go away. you'll continue to have scandals crop up, et cetera. but the principled part i think in the end is what carries you on year in and year out, as you slowly move toward a less corrupt system. >> down front and then right there, tony. >> what do you think is the impact of all this corruption on the economy as a country? or is it insignificant? >> it's not immeasurable. the reality is, though, when you look at the chinese economy, and you look at the growth of corruption, over the 30 years that the chinese have waged the war on corruption, china has also had the second largest gain in per capita income in the world. it's well over double the number three, which was south korea. it's multiple times what we had. if you look at the chinese economy, you know, the pattern is, worsening corruption, and rising growth, hence the subtitle of my more recent book. does that mean that growth has raised corruption -- i mean, that corruption has raised growth? absolutely not. it's shaved something off. a hundred million or 200 million remd sitting in somebody's basement is not a profitable investment. how much it's shaved off is very hard to tell. but certainly, there's been a cost. and as the economy roared out at double-digit rates, you could absorb that cost. as the growth rate begins to fall, the drag of corruption necessarily increases. you're at a point now where perhaps they could look at corruption and say it's a problem, but it's not really killing us, i think now more and more xi jinping has to worry about it. the economy drops -- growth rates drop below 40% and corruption will become a much bigger drag in relative terms. so, yeah, there's definitely been an impact. >> tony, and then we'll go to the back. >> i just wanted to push the conversation about political versus principled a little further, because you haven't really defined what you mean by principle. and i'll just say i guess what i think, and then you can comment on it. but it seems to me that kind of a more macro level, you've heard about the problem with corruption is with all these local officials, they do not really listen to what the party is trying to get them to do. so i see a campaign against corruption as being the principle being reestablishing central power over local power. that that seems to me to be a lot of the driving force behind it. and on the legal side, i know legal scholars often don't like this discussion, but again, you hear it a lot lately about, are these reforms about rule of law or rule by law. >> there's no question that a big part of the anti-corruption -- or a big part of the corruption problem is the protective umbrellas, the ability of officials at the local level to collude, the inability of jinping to work its will on the local level. that's a perennial fact of chinese political history. i think, you know, the anti-corruption campaign seeks to break through that, but the anti-corruption campaign is continuing to be structured along those very lines. you have not seen a centralization, you've not seen a move. although you have had these three, or now four-nationwide campaigns where they literally send people out to bypass the local level, to go after local corruption. but they have done this before. when they went after chen and lu in shanghai, after they went after the shaman case, they literally had to send hundreds of investigators down from beijing because they -- beijing basically said you can't trust the locals. the locals will cover things up. if a sustained anti-corruption campaign means repeatedly having to send people out from beijing to literally attack the local level, that's going to be hard to sustain. you've really got to get a systematic solution, which gets rid of this problem, where you were talking about earlier, don was talking about, where the local prosecutors answer to the local party officials. well, if the party officials are corrupt, you know, what are you going to do, charge your boss with being corrupt? it's career suicide. the other thing i think you need to be aware of is, it's not like the pro curatolaerate is corruption-free itself. battling corruption within the anti-corruption institutions is a major challenge. >> can i ask a question? i'm sort of springing this on you. i don't know whether you've been -- whether you've thought about this, but you probably have, which is that the -- you know, i guess the consensus among economists is that china's growth model, which up until now has been sort of driven by investment in things like industry and infrastructure, you know, it needs to change in order to be more sustainable and needs to change to something that's more service oriented and more demand driven. so my question is, what is the relationship of corruption to the type of kind of growth model that china uses? does changing the growth model, will that make corruption, you know, in the way that it's carried out now, more difficult, and if so, does that mean that we will have less corruption, or does it mean we can expect major pushback against this reform from people who want to keep on dipping into the pot the same way they've been able to do up until now? >> if you look at where corruption is concentrated, it's concentrated in things like real estate development. it's concentrated in the energy sector, with mining concessions, oilfield contracts and so forth. it's concentrated -- you know, my sense is that a lot of it is concentrated in the state sector, because in many areas, the state sector has either quasi monopoly. if you move and actually marketize the economy and you actually deconcentrate those pools of power, or areas where you can use political and administrative power to manipulate the result, yeah, that should do it. i mean, when i looked at corruption in the book, my assumption was, or the argument was that a lot of the corruption that we saw in the 1990s, early 2000s, was basically a fight over windfall profits in rents. the model basically suggests you should see the eventual dissipation of rents. when you've got a piece of real estate, the first time it moves from the state to the market, there are tremendous windfall profits to be made. but in theory, once it's on the market, then market forces take over, and the opportunities for excess profits should disappear. that hasn't happened. and the reason it hasn't happened is that the shift from an investment kind of directed growth model hasn't been complete. is xi jinping going to push that? that's what he was talking about at the third plenum. i don't know how much progress we've made on that. but you're right, there will be pushback. people do not willingly give away ill-gotten gains. people will fight to keep them. so, yeah, i think if you did really see this new model, you definitely would -- you should see -- i should say, you should see reductions in corruption. >> don, i wonder if i could bring tony's question back to you. it seems if it's going to be a principled, not even a campaign, just a state of affairs, more principled and less political, you would have a theory of how it got this bad in the first place. the answer seems to be that people are dad, or is it a story about more virtuous, central authorities having to rein in the locals, or do you see in the fourth plenum documents a more attempt to look at the system itself and see what deficiencies allowed corruption, are we seeing the beginnings of a systematic approach to corruption that can be sustained, that can be principled? >> i don't see that in the fourth plenum decision, no. i don't even recall them talking that much about corruption. there has recently been a proposal to have a sort of special unit set up, and this would be a governmental unit within the procurecy. it would be headed by somebody with the rank, i guess, of vice president of the procurecy. maybe it's some kind of attempt to construct something like hong kong's independent commission against corruption or something like that. but i don't see anything more than that. in other words, they're saying, let's try to get a state body that will investigate corruption that has a relatively high level official in charge, and so, therefore, we'll be able to overcome some of the obstacles. but that doesn't kind of change the basic nature of the system. it just says, let's get a -- you know, it's like, i guess if you were to worry about why poor people don't have enough food, you know, you just make them richer, rather than -- so you make poor people not poor rather than changing the basic structure of society so you have free food distribution or something like that. maybe that's a bad metaphor. but the point is, it doesn't propose to change the system as a whole. it just proposes to make some tweaks within it. so i don't see any fundamental changes like that coming out of the fourth planum decision. >> looking at the way cases are presented, i think the thinking within the chinese system is, it's bad people. because the tendency is, first of all, you're going to get a set of charges that are basically about corruption. then next you get the moral dejen rasy, so on and so forth, where they're saying, this person was just not taking advantage of their authority, or the fact that the system gave them the ability to extract money either in the forms of bribes or embezzlement, rents, et cetera, but they were fundamentally morally degenerate. when i read that narrative, the narrative says the system is good, the individual is bad. to me that sounds a lot like denial. >> you see this in dissidents as well. not just that they were stirring up trouble, it's also that they had mistresses or they liked pornography. the question at the middle of the back. then over to the side. and then ryan. other to the side then. and then ryan. >> [ inaudible ]. >> sorry. does the cooperation between china and the u.s. on the fight against corruption, how long do we need to wait to see some real progress on this aspect? thank you. >> i find the question a little vague. could you identify, for example, the barriers that you're waiting to go away? >> yeah, you know, some officials from china that travel to the u.s., how many years, i mean, maybe in the next year, can we see some flags from the tigers from china, be sent back to china? >> okay. so the problem with that is, this is what i talked about earlier on. i don't think there's any immediate prospect of any progress on that, because again, that gets into extradition issues. there's not an extradition treaty between china and the u.s. i don't think there's much of a prospect of there being an extradition treaty between china and the u.s. i don't think they have a fundamental faith. china doesn't enforce u.s. judgments. the u.s. doesn't enforce chinese judgments. i don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. i think there has to be much greater degree of divergence of the two legal systems, and i don't see that happening soon. and it's not because the u.s. likes corrupt officials. it's just some fundamental disconnect between the way the two legal systems work. the canadian government wanted to send bakley chung shin. they were in canadian court arguing, get rid of this guy. we do not want this guy in our country. but he had gotten in, and the canadian courts wouldn't make him leave. because they had other concerns. they're not concerned about foreign policy issues. they're not concerned about whether or not people who prescribe officials in our own country, perhaps bribing our own officials. you know, they have other concerns. >> ryan, and then over to this side. >> thanks very much. i have a question for each of you gentlemen. professor clark, constitutionalism popped up in the fourth plenum decision document, after a couple of years of sort of constitution being a dirty word on the chinese side. you know, i'm curious for your thoughts on what inclusion of the term constitutionalism alongside rule of law means in the context of the fourth plenum. and professor weedeman, where you've seen the corruption cases, the one place i haven't heard much about is shanghai. i've heard rumors that shanghai is going to be next. i'm curious if you have any thoughts on why we haven't necessarily seen any activity in shanghai, and sort of think of the political versus the practical, and if there's any analysis there? >> okay. i guess i'm going to have to disagree with your premise, because i don't think constitutionalism does appear in the fourth document. they do talk about the constitution. but -- and they have always talked about the constitution and the need for people -- everybody in the country to obey the constitution and also for the party to act according to the constitution. but constitutionalism, as translated into chinese, shin dung remains a forbidden term. i don't believe it appears in the document. >> but in many ways it certainly is there. they're going to uphold it. we talked about the relationship between shin dung and e -- >> you know, just those two words together, i deny that they have -- i could be wrong, but my recollection -- and people -- if you do a word search, you will not find the term shin jung. you find constitution. but shin jung, constitutionalism as a particular meaning, that meaning is not welcome, you know? because it is understood by both promoters, and detractors, to mean things like, you know, accountable government, elections, et cetera. >> do we not agree that the shen fa then is quite prominent. >> they talk about the constitution, absolutely. i mean to say, it's very important not to -- it's very important to see that they do not accept the term, you know, constitutionalism. we can talk about the irony of a party that, you know, proclaims itself to be a marxist party, talking about how terrible western ideas are. but let's not talk about that irony. >> if we have short questions and short answers, andy has a question for you, too. >> it's very hard to explain why something hasn't happened. there's been a lot of speculation. i think a lot of that speculation comes out of those who believe that the ultimate goal of xi jinping's campaign is john sung min in shanghai. i don't have an easy answer, because i don't know if shanghai simply is avoiding the blow, or if its turn has not yet come. so i don't have a good answer for your question. >> quick questions and quick answers. yes? >> they are the left wing, and it seems xi jinping did not target the right wing rivals. he himself is a pro left. why the left rival and not the right rival? is there a political reason? >> you can't take on all fronts at once. you've got to pick your fights and you've got to take on those who are your more immediate enemies, while building united fronts with those who might -- you might want to go after later. i'm not surprised he's concentrated on the left. i think that was the more threat to him. >> one last question. >> the phraseology issues in the communique. one of the key terms come up in the up in the communique is the rule of law, under the communist party's leadership. so what, i knew some political science or legal interpretation of that phrase, what does that exactly entails or how large it is comparable to, it's being quite similar to a constitutional monarchy or something like that. so, yeah, just some phraseology interpretations there. >> okay, well, i think the distinction between rule of law under the party and constitutional monarchy, is that constitutional monarchy is under the constitution. so constitutional modifies the monarchy, whereas rile ule of l the party modifies the rule of law. the rule of law under the party, i don't want to make word plays or something, but it's something as i think made clear, and not just by words, but also by the actions of the party. it is not their intention to themselves, you know, be governed in a sense by law, i don't want to be unrealistic, i mean humans run society, so there is no society that can really be run -- i think there is a difference between, you know, between political regimes where the government feels immediately con trained by external rules and systems in which it does not. i think we can look for example at the distinction between the need to have a legal advisor in the white house, who writes legal opinions coming up, justifying the acts of the white house and when the president wants to do something, the president has to think, well, 40-will this fly? and they have to come up with some plausible legal argument, they can't just say oh, i'm going to do it. i really don't think that he thinks that way. i don't think in the standing committee of the policy bureau, when they're deciding what to do, someone says well is this legal? we better talk with this law professor and get an opinion on it. nobody's discussing it, it doesn't need to be decided whether it's legal or not. sometimes we can say the legal opinion of people in the white house, we may think they're disingenuous, they're forced, there's a certain discourse and a certain procedure that people acknowledge the legitimacy of, i don't see that going on at all, and i don't see any ambition to have that go on. thank you, professor weederman, professor clark. thanks to all of you for coming, on december 4, we'll have the second annual chinese relations december 12, we have the author of who's afraid of the big bad dragon, why chesapeaina has the and the worst educational system in the world. we'll be looking at issues in united states and chinese educational systems and the way we are increasingly learning from one another, we hope you will join us from this program as well. thank you and happy thanksgiving. . richard ruben joins us, he's a reporter with bloomberg news and he's talking about legislation with tax extenders, election that actually expired that we could see come up and be renewed for 2014. give us an overview here, how much does this bill cost? how long is the extension and what are some of the tax breaks involved. >> the bill that the house is going to be voting on this week is known as a one-year extension, what that means is they revive a bunch of tax breaks that lacked at the end of 2015, and end them in 2014, so they're only extending through the end of this year. the biggest breaks in there is the production tax credit for wingd energy, the research tax credits for businesses, the ability for individuals to conduct state sales taxes and a division that helps multifinance companies defer u.s. taxs outside the country. it's a mish mash of tax breaks for individuals and businesses and it's got enough support usually to carry everybody to -- to carry enough members to support it, even though there are a lot of provisions in there, the individual members would pick on and complain about. >> one of these need to be revived here at the end of the year here, what's the point? why are they coming up now? >> what's driving the -- is a at the end of the congressional year, they want to get out of here by the end of next week. and to the irs says it needs congress to move as soon as possible to decide what the tax system looks like for 2015, so they can get all the reforms and get things ready to get their computers updated to be able to process returns. the irs says they need to move now in order for the filing season to open on time or even a little bit late in mid to late january. >> how would congress propose to pay for all of these tax extensions? >> they're not. this bill doesn't have any offsets or significant offsets, that i would add to the next decade, which is basically they all kind of agreed that we're in policy and existence in 2013 and they should all continue going forward. >> this involves two lawmakers, the one that's heading this up in the house, dave camp the chairman ways and means committee, and the chairman of the senate finance committee for now, and so dave camp's bill extends every tax break, one exception is a pet product of ron widen, so you say ouch, what's going on here and what are their roles moving forward? >> they don't know so much about the why of what's happening there, so 59 tax breaks e s exp, one of these is a tax break for a tax credit for two and three wheeled vehicles, electric motorcycles basically, one maker of those vehicles is in oregon, the home state of ron widen, and he's a big advocate of that tax break, dave camp left it out and its anti-innovation and he's not happy about that. and going forward, look, those two had a working relationship they and senator reed and the senate were getting close to a deal to make a bunch of these breaks permanent and extended the rest for two years, 2015. that fell apart last week and there's been a bit of animosity back and forth since then. >> ron whitehead is not going to be the head of that finance committee much listeninger, you just tweeted before we started talking about the future chair, orren hatch. what's the likely thing about this moving forward with the white house or the house democrats into next year? >> it seems like something will happen before the p end of this year, this bill looks the most likely to -- you've got tom souse democrats that were fine with it, the white house today is saying basically that they're okay with the general idea of a short-term extension, they haven't come out and endorsed the bill yet, we'll see what happens when it gets over to the senate, when they try to make might have been kno minor changes or accept the bill the way it is. when you have a changes at the end of 2014, then you've got to deal with this next year. let's say you got a new team with the same issue coming back with the same problem in 2015. >> and you can follow richard ruben on twitter, his handle is @richardrubendc. thanks ath for joining us. with live coverage of the u.s. house on cspan 3. we complement that coverage by showing you the most relevant constitutional hearings and public affairs events fl. watch us in hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. coming up on cspan 3, the house hearing on come batting isis and the foreign fighters who are joining the militant group. then this year's national conference on citizenship looks at civic engagement in america. and later an update on the $60 million restore ration project on the u.s. capitol dome. a joint house subcommittee hearing on combatting isis, and the motivation of foreign fighters who are joining the militant group. witnesses who are joining the homeland security security and state department officials. this is two hours, 20 minutes. >> without objection, all members may have five days to the submit questions and extrainous materials. whether it's isis or al nusra or corson, there's -- the influx of foreign fighters far surpasses anything we have even seen in afghanistan. the scale of this mass migration is unprecedented and it results in deadly attacks. more foreign fighters have fought for islamic groups like isis in the last two years and then fought in iraq in afghanistan in the last 12 years. i have a map, i hope we can put that up on the screens. that show the areas that these fighters have come from they have come from all over the world. according to estimates, around 15,000 jihadists from over 80 countries have traveled to syria to fight. 2,000 of these fighters are from th the -- all of these western passport holders can travel freely in europe and even to the united states once they have finished their tour of duty in syria. none of this is hypothetical. we have seen returning jihadists go on murderous ram pageses before. a french jihadist killed three people during a -- in october, a wannabe jihadist traveled to kill a canadian soldier. a senior obama administration official in september said that some americans fought with isis in skiera have returned to the united states. one known example is the indication of eric harun. he actually fought with isis and al nusra in syria on an rpg team. he flew to dulles international airport where he was taken into custody by the fbi. pled guilty of lesser charges and was released in september of that same year. harun died of a drug overdose in 2014. he isn't the only american we need to be concerned about. european gjihadists are just as much a threat to america as they travel to the united states under a visa waiver program. i doubt that u.s. and european intelligence services know whoever one of these individuals may be, just as a side note, the dod and the fbi were both invited to be here today to testify at this hearing and they would not come. some say these individuals may slip through the cracks. the network is global sophisticated and effective. isis uses it's global network to recruit, fundraise and smuggle fighters into and out of syria. this is much more sophisticated network than anything we know from core al qaeda operatives out of pakistan and afghanistan. the best way to reduce the threat that these foreign fighters pose is to identify how the isis recruitment network works and develop a global strategy to destroy it. we need to understand what countries these fighters are coming from but also how they're getting into syria, once they leave their home countries. what kind of political pressure are we using on these countries to go after these networks? we're not sure what that is, that's part of the purpose of this hearing today. complicating issues further, there are a number of gulf countries who are either unwilling or unable to crack down on gulf countries. many of these countries act as a hub of foreign fighters, we need to domore to -- tackle the threat but we can't do this without a comprehensive plan. we also need to combat isis online recruitment networks, social media is crucial to the isis network of recruiting. they have a whole media center dedicated to -- this is how their recruitment works, after initial vetting by an isis recruiter, travel logistics are finalized. turkey is the most commonly used route. so called religious and physical training begins followed by testing the foreign fighters with small tasks and after that recruits are given their marching orders to go and fight. they're paid and they're given weapons. this is a well oiled machine and very organized. isis is only going to get better, more efficient and more deadly and will turn more attention to attacks on the west in years to come. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses this morning. i will now turn to the ranking member mr. sherman from california for his five-minute opening comments. >> isis is evil and they found ways to convince americans that they are more evil than other forces in the middle east, but the fact is that the enemies of isis are at least nearly as evil and i think demon straably -- if possible in the present decade. begs the question what will flourish in the territory, both the cyber territory, to the ideological territory and the physical territory that isis now occupies. isis's enemies now include the shiite axis of hezbollah, assad, the shiite militias of iraq under iranian guidance and of course tehran itself. and those enemies also include al qaeda and of course it's fully authorized branch, to the al nusra front. there is talk that isis may be able to carry on an operation outside the middle east, compare that to its enemies. in 1983, we saw americans die by the hundreds in beirut, in the 1990s, we saw attacks in south america from hezbollah and iran. and there was the attempt by iran to assassinate the saudi ambassador recently right here in washington, d.c. no one can doubt that the iranians, the syrian government and hezbollah have the -- have a capacity to get their agents into western countries in the united states after all, there's an iranian embassy just a couple of hundred miles north of where we sit at the united nations. as to al qaeda, their capacity to carry out attacks in the west was demonstrated on september 11 and the khorasan group which we headed in 2002 was headed into syria as a part of and alliance request the al nusra front, just as important as destroying isis is what would occupy it's deolo. we have to prevent foreign fighters from joining isis, but the turks seem much more focused on what they see as their enemies, assad and many of the kurdish fighters. they have not allowed us to use interlink to attack isis, unless we alter our policy and decide to use our air force against assad. whether we should do that depends in part as to who would take over syria if assad were destroyed, right now al nusra and isis seem to be first and second in line, perhaps not in that order. in addition to president does not have the legal authority to wage war for more than -- he claims that authority with some support, the authority that is to say to go after isis on the theory that it is a splinter group of al qaeda and in 2001, this congress authorized every effort against al qaeda. we must urge countries to seal borders and to deter their citizens from joining isis and other extremist forces in syria and iraq. we must dispel this notion that the people can go fight and then return and be monitored. if a foreign fighter returns, they must be imprisoned. and u.n. security council resolution 2178 passed in september requires countries to pass laws as we have for decades, that would put such terrorist operate tys in jail. that would do a lot making it clear, especially from european countries that returning fighters are not going to be monitored, they are going to be imprisoned, is not only consistent with the united nations security resolution but will act to deter foreign fighters. finally, i will be using these hearings to once again urge the state department to hire people for their expertise in islamic theology and law. not because of fatwa issued by the state department would have credibility, but because state departments efforts to persuade legal scholars, islamic legal scholars around the world consists in going to them and saying, these guys are terrible, you think of the legal authority, you think of the legal arguments that will allow you to come out against them. no one would go to an american jurist and say my adversary is legal, you come up with the doctrine, you instead hire lawyers that know the law and that come to plead the -- when we get the recognized legal scholars in the islamic world on our side, that would be helpful, and we are going to courts around the world. i yield back. >> i now reck fly the chairman of the subcommittee on west africa for her opening statement. >> thank you so much, judge. since the beginning of this congress, our two subcommittees have held hearings to explore the crisis in iraq and the rise of isil and we have yet to hear of a comprehensive strategy to address these issues from the administration. for more than three years now, the administration has failed to address the syria crisis head on. and instead has let the country become a safe haven for more and more terrorists to seek to harm the united states and our interests. we on this committee have continued to sound the alarm and have been pleading with the administration to be more pro active in syria, to avoid skmilover effects that could destabilize the region. unfortunately, our calls have gone unanswered, even former officials from this same administration have been public about their own criticism over the president's syria strategy or lack thereof. the longer the administration delays and fumbles about, we must have a comprehensive strategy that not only remonths assad from power but addressings thor rang issue, and links the iraq, iran and isis together. all this does not give me much confidence that officials have a satisfactory plan in place to address the foreign fighters threat. while it is important that we refrain from -- when talking about isil and foreign fighters, it is equally important that we not downplay the threat. the cia estimated in september that isil. now has between 21,000 and 31,500 total fighters in syria and iraq and at least 15,000 of whom are foreign fighters from 8 0 countries. u.s. intelligence officials have acknowledged a ---due to, quotes, the changing dping familiar aches of the battlefield, new recruits and other factor, it is difficult to -- what we do know is that the majority of foreign fighters are from nations in the middle east however there is a significant number, according dhs testimony that come from other countries including eover 100 americans. the reach of this terrorist organization has extended beyond our initial assessment as we saw the tragic killing of four people at the jewish museum in brussels or to the attack in belgium where isis -- in the hafbd, body and head, offering to after offering to help officials with their investigation, the possibility of homegrown or loep wolf attacks inspired by isil should be a -- the european union which has been soft on terrorism in the past, must take heed of these examples and heighten their terrorism laws as well as increase their cooperation with us. we must also remember that the process of foreign fighters joining isil and the group's radicalization of westerners are still in the beginning stages. it took years before we saw the results of individuals joining osama bin laden and al qaeda in afghanistan, and the complete threat posed by isil foreign fighters remains to be seen. yes it is true that the problem of foreigners joining a terrorist group is not a new problem, this should not allow us, however, to be complacent, the sheer number of foreign fighters to isil is cause for alarm and any -- we must look rat all options available to us to prevent fighters from traveling to syria and iraq from returning to the united states and the recruitment in the first place. whether that is tightening travel restrictions on those who try to enter certain countries or go back to the u.s., increasing pejities, providing support to terrorist groups, enhancing cooperation with our allies. we have to have a realistic debate about the measures necessary to take on foreign fighters, to monitor them here and overseas to arrest and detain them, before and after an attack all while assuring that our civil liberties are protected. i look forward, mr. chairman to hearing from our witnesses for what exactly the administration is doing to tackle this problem in both short and long-term as well as to encourage a debate we all need to be having. thank you, sir. >> i now turn to the ranking member of the skub committee in the middle east and north africa. mr. ted deutsch from there from for his opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman. the issue of foreign fighters joining isis and other extremist groups in syria and iraq, poses a grave threat to global security and deserves this congress's full attention. >> the ri the rise of isis has been truly unprecide unprecident. isis broke away from al qaeda. isis has not just focused it's efforts on the battlefield. it's developed a propaganda machine which is spreading it's message to nearly every corner of the earth. isis producing pamphlets videos et cetera. with twitter and you tube, isis has a direct line across the world and in a grotesque display of disregard for human life, isis has used brutal beheadings of americans as a propaganda tool. young men and women from the middle east, north africa, europe and beyond have signed up to join the fight in syria. estimates now put the number of foreign fighters at over 16,000. three years ago, we were first alarmed by reports of fighters coming into syria from other countries in the region, mainly from saudi arabia and north africa. we should be particularly concerned about to the alarming number of fighters coming from north africa. the chaos that followed the revolutions in tunisia and libya have followed very different results. libya has been overruin by competing militias, it is on the verge of becoming a failed state. however, tunisia's young, mostly educated population has struggled with unemployment and tunisia does not have libya's oil resources to keep the country afloat. so despite tune vienne-- factor contributing to the rise of young tunisian men. as the article reported, the moderate islamist led government granted new religious freedoms after a half century of harshly enforced secularism. unfortunately, that freedom was exploited by extreme restrest -e new government has struggled to maintain a balance between security and religious freedom. and i raise the issue of tunisia to highlight the attractation of many youths even what should be considered moderate countries. easy trance skit to the continue innocent and the porous borders give radicalized fighters returns home give my opportunities to exploit populations. a terror cell claiming al liege jennin -- shiite populations in saudi arabia have been attacked by isis aligned groups. there are over 500 foreign fighters from lebanon, a country already suffering the effects of isis. we must counter isis before it grabs hold of youths in tunisia, and in france and even here at home. government leaderings must take initiatives to speak -- on its return from a visit to turkey last week, pope francis encouraged muslim leaders to issue global dcondemnations of terrorism. the u.s. and our partners should also encourage training for imom s's, the mosques should not be a breeding ground for terrorism. and ambassador, i hope you'll discuss in greeter detail the need for counter terrorism communication. we must continue to use our foreign aid to counter violent extremism in schools and among other vulnerable populations. this is a global threat and warrants a global response, no country is immune to the threat of terrorism and even as the united states leads over 60 nations in the fight against isis, we will always be the face of this coalition, and we must remain vigilant about the threat of radicalization or the threat of lone wolf attacks. again, i want to thank both of our witnesses for appearing here today, i look forward to a productive discussion on this incredibly challenging effort to koufbter radicalization, stem the flow of fighters in and out of syria. >> the chair will now recognize other members for opening statements. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, mr. wilson. >> on sunday both the fbi and the department of homeland security issued warnings to american military personnel will be the united states regarding possible threats from isil. sadly this comes back homeland security secretary jay johnson announced, quote, that the president would have is no credible information that isis is planning to attack the homeland of the united states, he said this in new york city in front of the council on foreign relations. this incredible statement by secretary johnson, preceded his unconstitutional review of illegal aliens, as a member of this committee as well as chairman of the ampled services subcommittee on personnel, i'm grateful to promote the well-being of members and their families both at home and abroad. national radio talk show host today in her program chose a digital probe, restated the fbi and dhs warnings of isis threats here in america to military families and i look forward to the hearing today on how we can protect american families from the grotesque threat of persons who seek to conduct mass murder of american families in our country. thank you. >> the chair recognizes the chairman from virginia mr. connelly for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and i would hope that we guard against facile answers against the president. some of the president's loudest critics could not bring themselves to support his request to retaliate in syria against the use of chemical weapons and had the president heeded their advice, a year 3456 two years ago, isil today would be better equipped and better trained because it drew from the very insurgents that the president was urging us to arm and train. i think the question is why, what motivates these men and women, especially men to join this barbaric movement. it's a very troubling question for the west and for islam itself. secondly how are they recruited? widely reported accounts of the use of social immediate y'all, very sophisticated, once it's appealed do we understand it? and finally, what are our options. option number one, priority number one is to pre-empt or prevent them getting to syria, because once they get to syria, we have a whole different set of challenges that require a whole different set of answers. so i'm looking forward to exploring those questions in today's hearing. thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you gentlemen, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. cook for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman. you know, it's a sad commentary on what's going on in the world right now. just when you think you put down one terrorist group, there's another one that ridesrises fro ashes and it's something that underscores the fact that we must stay every vigilant and quite frachbingly we have to have a military that doesn't have its budget cut to the bone, because you never know what's going to happen tomorrow. i have been on this planet a long time. ted, i saw that smirk on your face and it's probably in my opinion, the world is probably most dangerous it has ever been since i have been solved in those things, i've been in combat, been in war and now you strive to go forward and make the wormtd safe, not only for your country, but for your kids and your grand children. so thank you for having this hearing, i think this is something we cannot fall asleep on and as i said earlier, we got to be ever vigilant and question got this stuff going on. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from new york, mr. higgins for his opening statement. >> the rapid conquest of a territory covering large portions of syria and iraq is in part owed to the prolific recruitment of foreign fighters, which is now in excess of 15,000, part of the sbeg ral part of the strategy must be an effect tiff program to stem the flow of foreign fighter who not only add to the foreign fighters strength, but who also represent a serious threat when they return to their countries of origin. of greatest concern are the roughly 2,000 foreign fighter e originating in foreign countries. until it can be properly addressed, the islamic state's proficient use of social media and other mediums to facilitate the recruitment of radicalization of these individuals. i look forward to today's discussion with our witnesses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois. >> thank you mr. chairman, under both committees under which i szczerbiak. -- serve. we're bombing isis, that's good, i wish we had started that back in january when there was only a few thousand of them. today we're playing a lot of catch up. i just recently got back from iraq, i guess two months ago now, a month and a half. when i left in '09 as a pilot in the military, the war was won and when i wchblt back just a couple of months ago, it was devastating to see. i hope we begin to see from this administration a strategy for syria, i echo what a lot of people have said. 200,000 dead syrians today, many of which are women and children, by the evil dictatorship of bashar al assad, which is no protector of christianity. the reason this rebellion exists, the reason people would even be attracted is isis, some people see him as the best alternative for assad. so i thihopefully we'll begin tr that from to the administration, it's been a few years, but maybe we'll catch some good news here soon and i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from rhode island for his opening statements. >> the mr. chairman, for holding this hearing on this very important issue. addressing that threat with a comprehensive and carefully developed and thoughtful strategy must be a top priority of our foreign policy. all options and their constitutions need to be carefully considered. even as the administration ramps up it's response with a $5.6 billion request from the president to aim rebels in syria, isil continues to attract foreign fighters, krug fighters from western countries, we must do all we can to stop this flow of fighter into the region. and we must exam ming how and why isil is -- access to additional fighting personnel and battleal resources. i look forward to hearing the perspective of the witnesses we have assembled on thisz important issues. >> are there any other members tochb majority side? the chair recognizes the gentle lady from florida, ms. frankle for one minute. >> thank you very much for being here. i have to confess just a little bit of uneasiness of really what we should be doing with isil. but there are two issues that have been floating around in my mind that i'll try to articulate, just based on some things i have read or heard and i would like to get your reaction as you go forward. one to pick up on my colleague who talked about al assad and hundreds of thousands of his own people that he's slaughtered. and causing such a -- many of them, thousands to flee into countries like turkey deza destabilize those countries and some will say that the isil is enemy is the firest fighter gernls assad. so my question is how do you balance going after isil, and are you helping assad, are we helping assad in that regard. and then the second issue that i have read and heard people say is that our actions, whether it's bombing, air strikes or whatever, that we tend to inflame certain folks that will cause them to use our actions as a recruitment for isil. i would like to hear your reaction to that. i yield back, mr. poe. >> anyone else wish to make an opening statement? mr. kennedy, one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you to the chairman and ranking members of this committee for holding this hearing. to our witnesses, thank you for coming here today, thank you for your service to our country. a number of my colleagues have already touched on the issues around trying to limit the number of foreign fighters coming in to syria in the region and obviously that's critical. the other as pekts of this is our ability to monitor their movements after they're there and once they return home. this puts an awful lot of pressure on our intelligence agency's apparatus to try and make sure we can successfully identify those fighters once they try to leave and try to gain entry back into the united states and canada. i would love to hear your assessment of those capabilities, how much confidence we have in our intelligence communities, in order to conduct those operations, if they need additional resources if they need to do so and what road blocks you might see in making sure they are right every time and that's something that doesn't slip through the crackses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois, mr. snyder more one minute. >> i would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today and sharing what ask being done and a very serious concern. it seems that there are three challenges we face, one is cutting off the source of these fighters, i would be interested in hearing your take as was mentioned earlier, why so many are coming from five county are tries, five countries represent half the total, morocco, tunisia, turkey, jordan and saudi arabia, what's being done to predict their progress towards syria and iraq, how do we prevent them from going and how do we make sure that they're not allowed to come back. an i yield back my time. >> anyone else? >> i'll introduce our witnesses and give them time for their opening statements. the honorable robert bradke serves as advisor for skierian born -- -- previously served as our ambassador to croatiana. prior to joining dhs, he spent several years in private practice before a decades long tenure where he focused on the middle east. ambassador bradke, we'll start with you, you u have five minutes. >> chairman poe, distinguished members of the subcommittees. few for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of the state department of this hearing on isis and the threat from foreign fighters. i would ask that the full text of my statement be included in the record and i'll proceed with a summary of my statement. mr. chairman, the state department along with other agencies, the united states government is deeply concerned about the threat posed by foreign fighters, who have travelled to syria and iraq to participate in the conflicts there. these fighters, many only whom have joined isil, al nu skrsra other terrorist organizations are a serious threat to our allies and a serious threat to the united states. these fighters may try to trourn their home countries or other countries and carry out attacks, in response to this, the united states has been working closely with our syrian partners for over two years. the united states has intensified it's response by building a coalition of more than 60 countries with the-goal of degrading and defeating isil. john allen is leeding a comprehensive strategy including military support to our partners, dits disrupting the flow of foreign parters, stopping isil's funding, exposing isis' true nature. today i would like to describe to you how we're fighting the foreign fighter in isil. not only with the -- broader frame work of the threat posed by other terrorist organizations and groups such as al nusra and the khorasan group, critical to countering this threat is our engagement with our foreign partn partners. the state department has been leading a government outreach effort with our foreign partn partners, an effort that's being carried out in all of our branchs of government. the department of homeland security, the department of justice u the department of the treasury, the federal bureau of investigation, our military commands as well as our embassies overseas. many my capacity as senior advisor for foreign engagement, i have let interagency delegation vision sits to 17 countries to address this issue with our partners. we and our partners reck nooirz that we must use all the tools at our disposal and correspondent across a wide range of activities. let me outline for you very briefly, seven areas where we are engaging with our foreign partners. first is information sharing, to prevent and interdict the travel of foreign fighters, we are working bilaterally to bolster -- we have called upon our partners to make increased use of multilateral arrangements for sharing information, specifically interpol's sforn fighter fusion cell. second is law enforcement cooperation. we're using formal and informal mechanisms to help foreign authorities to bring suspected terrorists to trial. third, is capacity building. we have worked closely with a number of partner countries, including tunisia to help them strengthen their infrastructure to tackle the foreign fighter threat, including stronger counter terrorism legislation and improved interagency coordination. fourth is stopping the flow of external financing to terrorist organizations. together with the treasury department, we have aggressively raised with our partners, cases where we believe individuals or organizations are raising funds that are used to support isil or other terrorist groups. in recent months, as isil has gained control of more territories, we're also engaging with our partners in the region to cut off isis from the sale of oil. we have sought to expose the true nature of isil and other terrorist groups through the work on social media. sixth is countering violent extremism. in my meetings with foreign part mes, i have found that all of us are looking for ways to keep individuals from being radicalized. we are sharing our enexperience in countering violent extremism programs that are being carried out in the united states and are working with partners to engage their own communities. seventh and lastly is border and aviation security. my colleague from the department of homeland security will go into this area in greater detail. parallel with this bilateral engagement, we have joined with our partners in multilateral forum. approved united nations security council resolution 2178, a binding resolution that calls upon all countries among other things to prevent and suppress the recruiting, organizing, transporting or equipping foreign fighters. also in september, at a meeting chaired by secretary kerry and the turkish foreign minister, the global counter terrorism forum adopted the first ever set of international good practices for a more effective response to the terrorist fighter phenomenon. the foreign terrorist fighters working group, shared with the netherlands in morocco will take place in marakesh december 15 and 16. mr. chairman, madam chairman, in his speech at west point, president obama stated we must shift our counter terrorism policy to and i quote more effectively partner with countries where terrorist networks seek a foothold, end quote, as i hope i have indicated in this statement, we are engaging with our partners, using all the tools at our does posal in order to deal with the threat posed by those fighters. i stand ready to address some of the issues the members raiseded during their statements and answer your questions, thank you. >> the chair recognizes you for your five-minute opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman, madam chairman and ranking member sherman and members of the subcommittees. thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the efforts by department of homeland security to protect our nation from terrorists operating out of syria and iraq. i'm going to address how dhs helps protect the homeland from foreign fighters who are not from syria or iraq but who travel there to participate in the conflict and then may seek to attack the united states. u.s. persons, u.s. interests or u.s. allies. let me talk about the islamic state of iraq. i'm not going to do a full press briefing on isil, that would be in a classified setting. any credible threat to the u.s. home land from isil, however as has been noted, isil has encouraged it's supporters to carry out attacks and such attacks could be subjected without specific direction from isil with little or no warning. in addition terrorist group skrs shown interest in attacks on u.s.-bound airplanes. terrorists have tried to conceal impro viszed exploeive devices and commercial electronics in years of the body they don't think will be thoroughly searched and in shoes, cosmetics or liquids in order to try to diffuse airplane screening. first aviation security. in early july, secretary johnson directed the transportation security administration to enhance screening at a number of oversees airports with direct flights to the united states. tsa increased the number of additional airports to use enhanced screening methods. dhs will work with air carriers in foreign airports to adjust screening measures to take into account changing to the threat. second preclearance. one of secretary johnson's initiate tys is to -- preclearance means that a plane takes off, all passengers and their baggage are inspected by u.s. customs and border protections officers, using their full legal authorities and using enhanced aviation security approved by tsa. we have had preclearance in canada and the caribbean and we have recently expanded it to air land and the united arab emretsz. third, tracking foreign fighters. dhs along with the fbi, the national counter terrorism center, and the u.s. intelligence community is making greater efforts to track foreign fighter who is fought in syria who come from the united states or who seek to enter the united states from another country. fourth, we're encouraging other governments to collect their own information on foreign fighters. this topic is almost always item number one on dh s's agenda with european governments. we are helped by u.n. security council resolution 2178 which has provided a new push for european and other governments to use technology like advance ed -- fifth, enhancing the elect frontic -- and the visa waiver program, vwp. dhs is increasing our ability to even -- travel to the united states without a state department issued visa under the skrees a waver program. on no 3, dhs began requiring additional data elements that will allow tcp to allow better security screening of vwp travel eve ers. the additional data provides an additional layer of security. sixth, dhs is continually working to help communities identify homegrown violent extremists. secretary johnson regularly speaks of the challenge posed by the independent actor or lone wolf. in many respects, this is the hardest terrorist threat to detect and one of concern to dhs. we help detect hves through outreach and community engagement. secretary johnson personally participates in community meetings in chicago, columbus, minneapolis and los angeles that focuses on community concerns and building trust and partnership to counter violent extremism. second information sharing within the u.s. government. reaching dhs personnel in the field, as well as our state, local tribal and territorial partners. the fbi releases joint intelligence bulletins to provide context and backgrounds for them to use. the interagency partners work continually to share information with each other about possible foreign fighters. mr. chairman, madam chairman, since 9/11, our partners in the law enforcement and intelligence community have vastly improved the nation's ability to detect and disrupt terrorist plots, we ask for your support as we continue to adapt to emerging threats and to improve our ability to keep our nation safe. thank you very much. we obviously are happy to answer your questions. >> thanning both of you, i'll recognize myself for five minutes for some questions. the united states is conducting air strikes, how have u.s. air strikes affected the flow of foreign fighters into syria? if it has. >> with my sense looking at the numbers is that it's hard to say at this point that what the impact is, it is relatively soon after these strikes have taken place, the numbers that we monitor, the numbers that we track, are estimates at best, and again i think it's probably early to determine precisely what the impact is, it's obviously precisely what the impact is. it's obviously something, again, that our intelligence community is looking at, and it's possible that in a classified briefing they might be able to give you their assessment. again, from my perspective, the numbers, again, can vary for a variety of reasons. sometimes it's because we get better information from our partners. and that results in an increase in the estimate. >> so we don't know if it's effective or not? >> i would say that if the issue is effective in reducing the flow of foreign fighters i would say at this point i would want to see more evidence before i come to a conclusion. >> mr. warrick do you have a different answer? >> no. there is an answer to that question but i think it needs to be delivered in a classified setting. >> turkey seems to me, appears to be to be a complicit, to some extent of allowing foreign fighters to flow through turkey into syria. would you weigh in on your opinion of what the government of turkey, their position is on foreign fighters going through turkey into syria? ambassador, you be first. >> mr. chairman, turkey is a very important partner of ours in the region. we share a very important common interest with them. we have a shared interest in seeing a political settlement in syria, that removes assad. we have a shared interest in combatting the terrorist organizations that are operating in syria and iraq. we have a shared interest in dealing with the humanitarian crisis and also shared interest in promoting stability in iraq. >> i understand that. that's not my question. my question is the government of turkey complicit in allowing foreign fighters to go through their country and fight for isil? >> i was trying to explain some of the perspective on this problem, sir. the turks have more than a million refugees inside turkey. turks have a 900 kilometer border. >> i've bento one of those syrian camps. >> there's 37 million tourist rifle in turkey every year. we believe turkey and we've had an extensive dialogue on this issue for some time is taking steps trying to deal with the flow of foreign fighters. turks have added a considerable number of names to their denied entry list. turks are working with us in funding that might come from oil sales to the foreign terrorist organizations. >> isn't turkey buying oil from isil and coming to turkey from isil. >> there's considerable traffic we have discussed with the turks across the border. again the latest information the turks are taking steps -- >> are they buying oil from isis. >> if turkey is buying oil from isil no. are they smuggling across the border, yes. we're trying to cut off working with the turks. the other thing i would mention is sharing of information with turkey. we're seeing much better information sharing with turkey with the united states and also with our european partners. >> they are not complicit. that's my question. >> my answer is they are not complicit. >> social media, we know, obvious recruitment is being done in a very effective manner, appears through social media. there's the argument by some in our law enforcement agency not to shut down social media because that's how they track and keep up with terrorist organizations and individuals. what is your opinion on that? doing more or less or leaving it alone, tissue of all of social media, how it's effective in tracking and recruiting of terrorists to join isil, should we be proactive to shut that network down legally, of course, or do as law enforcement says we want to watch this to see where these guys are going. what's your opinion on that, ambassador and then i'll get mr. warrick and then that will be it. >> the issue of freedom of the internet, freedom of expression on the internet goes well beyond my responsibilities. we clearly watch very closely the use of the internet by these organizations. we have a dialogue with the service providers. in cases where the posts that are being used, used on social media accounts is perhaps, in our view contrary to the terms of service. so, again, this is a complex question, it's a complicated question, goes well beyond my responsibilities. certainly any use of the internet for illegal activities such as fundraising or incitement to violence is something we would take strong legal action against. but there are gray areas here of the use of massacre net and social media, and the question is how one responds to that. i think we also believe that if you shut down one site you shut down one account, the chances of that popping back up somewhere else are quite high and quite great. so the other tool we use is counter messaging ourselves through the center for strategic counterterrorism communications that was mentioned earlier, we try to put out counter messaging on social immediate area on the internet to push back in that way rather than simply try to take down the message they are putting out. >> mr. warrick, i'll let you put that in writing since we're out of time. i have to recognize the ranking member, mr. sherman for his five minutes. >> thank you. first let me clarify a statement in made towards the end of my opening statement. the state department has thousands of experts in american law. you don't particularly need more. we also have experts in international law. those experts help us persuade western countries of the righteousness of our positions. i have been pushing on the state department for, i think the better part of a year, to hire an expert in islamic law. and the response i get is, well we hope islamic jurists will issue statements that are helpful to us and we'll just call them and ask them to come up with something on their own, or now and then he'll call-up a professor of islamic law, we don't need to hire anybody. i analogize that if you were trying to get an american jurist. would you say my cause is just please come up with the legal theories that support me. would you rely on hiring advice from any professor you can get on a phone or hire somebody who is an expert in american law to get an american jurist to issue a statement helpful to you? it is incredibly important that we get islamic scholars, experts and jurists to issue rulings adverse toy isis and favorable to the united states. it is about time that the state department hire its first islamic legal expert to work full time on that. maybe a couple. and it's time that at least somebody be hired at the state department not because they went to a fancy american school, or because they did well on the foreign service exam. mr. ambassador, security council resolution 2178 requires u.n. members to criminalize those who go to syria and iraq to fight with the extremists. have european allies particularly visa waiver countries complied with that? >> if i may just comment briefly on your first point on islamic lawyers, islamic scholars. >> can i ask the ambassador to move the mic closer to him. >> i have limited time so i'll ask you to address my question first. about resolution 2178 from the security council. >> we having worked with our partners in our sbaes in europe and elsewhere to engage with these countries on implementing 2178. >> can you provide for the record a list of which visa waiver countries are in compliance, which have promised to become in compliance and which are not in compliance that have no very serious promise to us? >> we've had two months since the resolution was passed. >> i'm just asking for a chart. >> i would be happy to provide a list of countries. >> their legislative process may be slow but i know your staff will be fast and get a chart for our record and we'll identify those countries. likewise if you can provide a chart of islamic, particularly arab states, five the gentleman from illinois identified as the majorer senders of foreign fighters whether they have passed laws that would criminalize going to syria or iraq and fighting with al nustra or isis. >> i would be happy to do that. >> i take it from your answer we're doing everything we can to push our friends in the arab world and europe -- >> there are countries that have already in place as we do laws that prohibit criminalized -- >> are there any countries that have said no we'll just let these folks come back and monitor them. >> no country has taken such a cavalier attitude. there are countries that do believe that some of the fighters who come back have been disillusioned by their participation. have not paid in terrorist activities while in syria. they believe those fighters should be monitored rather than incarcerated. those are decisions those countries make. >> is that in compliance with u.n. security council resolution 2178, that view? >> i'm not a lawyer myself. i have to take a look at that issue. there are different approaches how you deal with returning fighters particularly ones who have not carried out any evidence -- >> look i don't care if you're peeling potatoes in
fighters who are joining the militant group. witnesses who are joining the homeland security security and state department officials. this is two hours, 20 minutes. >> without objection, all members may have five days to the submit questions and extrainous materials. whether it's isis or al nusra or corson, there's -- the influx of foreign fighters far surpasses anything we have even seen in afghanistan. the scale of this mass migration is unprecedented and it results in deadly attacks. more foreign fighters have fought for islamic groups like isis in the last two years and then fought in iraq in afghanistan in the last 12 years. i have a map, i hope we can put that up on the screens. that show the areas that these fighters have come from they have come from all over the world. according to estimates, around 15,000 jihadists from over 80 countries have traveled to syria to fight. 2,000 of these fighters are from th the -- all of these western passport holders can travel freely in europe and even to the united states once they have finished their tour of duty in syria. none of this is hypothetical. we have seen returning jihadists go on murderous ram pageses before. a french jihadist killed three people during a -- in october, a wannabe jihadist traveled to kill a canadian soldier. a senior obama administration official in september said that some americans fought with isis in skiera have returned to the united states. one known example is the indication of eric harun. he actually fought with isis and al nusra in syria on an rpg team. he flew to dulles international airport where he was taken into custody by the fbi. pled guilty of lesser charges and was released in september of that same year. harun died of a drug overdose in 2014. he isn't the only american we need to be concerned about. european gjihadists are just as much a threat to america as they travel to the united states under a visa waiver program. i doubt that u.s. and european intelligence services know whoever one of these individuals may be, just as a side note, the dod and the fbi were both invited to be here today to testify at this hearing and they would not come. some say these individuals may slip through the cracks. the network is global sophisticated and effective. isis uses it's global network to recruit, fundraise and smuggle fighters into and out of syria. this is much more sophisticated network than anything we know from core al qaeda operatives out of pakistan and afghanistan. the best way to reduce the threat that these foreign fighters pose is to identify how the isis recruitment network works and develop a global strategy to destroy it. we need to understand what countries these fighters are coming from but also how they're getting into syria, once they leave their home countries. what kind of political pressure are we using on these countries to go after these networks? we're not sure what that is, that's part of the purpose of this hearing today. complicating issues further, there are a number of gulf countries who are either unwilling or unable to crack down on gulf countries. many of these countries act as a hub of foreign fighters, we need to domore to -- tackle the threat but we can't do this without a comprehensive plan. we also need to combat isis online recruitment networks, social media is crucial to the isis network of recruiting. they have a whole media center dedicated to -- this is how their recruitment works, after initial vetting by an isis recruiter, travel logistics are finalized. turkey is the most commonly used route. so called religious and physical training begins followed by testing the foreign fighters with small tasks and after that recruits are given their marching orders to go and fight. they're paid and they're given weapons. this is a well oiled machine and very organized. isis is only going to get better, more efficient and more deadly and will turn more attention to attacks on the west in years to come. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses this morning. i will now turn to the ranking member mr. sherman from california for his five-minute opening comments. >> isis is evil and they found ways to convince americans that they are more evil than other forces in the middle east, but the fact is that the enemies of isis are at least nearly as evil and i think demon straably -- if possible in the present decade. begs the question what will flourish in the territory, both the cyber territory, to the ideological territory and the physical territory that isis now occupies. isis's enemies now include the shiite axis of hezbollah, assad, the shiite militias of iraq under iranian guidance and of course tehran itself. and those enemies also include al qaeda and of course it's fully authorized branch, to the al nusra front. there is talk that isis may be able to carry on an operation outside the middle east, compare that to its enemies. in 1983, we saw americans die by the hundreds in beirut, in the 1990s, we saw attacks in south america from hezbollah and iran. and there was the attempt by iran to assassinate the saudi ambassador recently right here in washington, d.c. no one can doubt that the iranians, the syrian government and hezbollah have the -- have a capacity to get their agents into western countries in the united states after all, there's an iranian embassy just a couple of hundred miles north of where we sit at the united nations. as to al qaeda, their capacity to carry out attacks in the west was demonstrated on september 11 and the khorasan group which we headed in 2002 was headed into syria as a part of and alliance request the al nusra front, just as important as destroying isis is what would occupy it's deolo. we have to prevent foreign fighters from joining isis, but the turks seem much more focused on what they see as their enemies, assad and many of the kurdish fighters. they have not allowed us to use interlink to attack isis, unless we alter our policy and decide to use our air force against assad. whether we should do that depends in part as to who would take over syria if assad were destroyed, right now al nusra and isis seem to be first and second in line, perhaps not in that order. in addition to president does not have the legal authority to wage war for more than -- he claims that authority with some support, the authority that is to say to go after isis on the theory that it is a splinter group of al qaeda and in 2001, this congress authorized every effort against al qaeda. we must urge countries to seal borders and to deter their citizens from joining isis and other extremist forces in syria and iraq. we must dispel this notion that the people can go fight and then return and be monitored. if a foreign fighter returns, they must be imprisoned. and u.n. security council resolution 2178 passed in september requires countries to pass laws as we have for decades, that would put such terrorist operate tys in jail. that would do a lot making it clear, especially from european countries that returning fighters are not going to be monitored, they are going to be imprisoned, is not only consistent with the united nations security resolution but will act to deter foreign fighters. finally, i will be using these hearings to once again urge the state department to hire people for their expertise in islamic theology and law. not because of fatwa issued by the state department would have credibility, but because state departments efforts to persuade legal scholars, islamic legal scholars around the world consists in going to them and saying, these guys are terrible, you think of the legal authority, you think of the legal arguments that will allow you to come out against them. no one would go to an american jurist and say my adversary is legal, you come up with the doctrine, you instead hire lawyers that know the law and that come to plead the -- when we get the recognized legal scholars in the islamic world on our side, that would be helpful, and we are going to courts around the world. i yield back. >> i now reck fly the chairman of the subcommittee on west africa for her opening statement. >> thank you so much, judge. since the beginning of this congress, our two subcommittees have held hearings to explore the crisis in iraq and the rise of isil and we have yet to hear of a comprehensive strategy to address these issues from the administration. for more than three years now, the administration has failed to address the syria crisis head on. and instead has let the country become a safe haven for more and more terrorists to seek to harm the united states and our interests. we on this committee have continued to sound the alarm and have been pleading with the administration to be more pro active in syria, to avoid skmilover effects that could destabilize the region. unfortunately, our calls have gone unanswered, even former officials from this same administration have been public about their own criticism over the president's syria strategy or lack thereof. the longer the administration delays and fumbles about, we must have a comprehensive strategy that not only remonths assad from power but addressings thor rang issue, and links the iraq, iran and isis together. all this does not give me much confidence that officials have a satisfactory plan in place to address the foreign fighters threat. while it is important that we refrain from -- when talking about isil and foreign fighters, it is equally important that we not downplay the threat. the cia estimated in september that isil. now has between 21,000 and 31,500 total fighters in syria and iraq and at least 15,000 of whom are foreign fighters from 8 0 countries. u.s. intelligence officials have acknowledged a ---due to, quotes, the changing dping familiar aches of the battlefield, new recruits and other factor, it is difficult to -- what we do know is that the majority of foreign fighters are from nations in the middle east however there is a significant number, according dhs testimony that come from other countries including eover 100 americans. the reach of this terrorist organization has extended beyond our initial assessment as we saw the tragic killing of four people at the jewish museum in brussels or to the attack in belgium where isis -- in the hafbd, body and head, offering to after offering to help officials with their investigation, the possibility of homegrown or loep wolf attacks inspired by isil should be a -- the european union which has been soft on terrorism in the past, must take heed of these examples and heighten their terrorism laws as well as increase their cooperation with us. we must also remember that the process of foreign fighters joining isil and the group's radicalization of westerners are still in the beginning stages. it took years before we saw the results of individuals joining osama bin laden and al qaeda in afghanistan, and the complete threat posed by isil foreign fighters remains to be seen. yes it is true that the problem of foreigners joining a terrorist group is not a new problem, this should not allow us, however, to be complacent, the sheer number of foreign fighters to isil is cause for alarm and any -- we must look rat all options available to us to prevent fighters from traveling to syria and iraq from returning to the united states and the recruitment in the first place. whether that is tightening travel restrictions on those who try to enter certain countries or go back to the u.s., increasing pejities, providing support to terrorist groups, enhancing cooperation with our allies. we have to have a realistic debate about the measures necessary to take on foreign fighters, to monitor them here and overseas to arrest and detain them, before and after an attack all while assuring that our civil liberties are protected. i look forward, mr. chairman to hearing from our witnesses for what exactly the administration is doing to tackle this problem in both short and long-term as well as to encourage a debate we all need to be having. thank you, sir. >> i now turn to the ranking member of the skub committee in the middle east and north africa. mr. ted deutsch from there from for his opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman. the issue of foreign fighters joining isis and other extremist groups in syria and iraq, poses a grave threat to global security and deserves this congress's full attention. >> the ri the rise of isis has been truly unprecide unprecident. isis broke away from al qaeda. isis has not just focused it's efforts on the battlefield. it's developed a propaganda machine which is spreading it's message to nearly every corner of the earth. isis producing pamphlets videos et cetera. with twitter and you tube, isis has a direct line across the world and in a grotesque display of disregard for human life, isis has used brutal beheadings of americans as a propaganda tool. young men and women from the middle east, north africa, europe and beyond have signed up to join the fight in syria. estimates now put the number of foreign fighters at over 16,000. three years ago, we were first alarmed by reports of fighters coming into syria from other countries in the region, mainly from saudi arabia and north africa. we should be particularly concerned about to the alarming number of fighters coming from north africa. the chaos that followed the revolutions in tunisia and libya have followed very different results. libya has been overruin by competing militias, it is on the verge of becoming a failed state. however, tunisia's young, mostly educated population has struggled with unemployment and tunisia does not have libya's oil resources to keep the country afloat. so despite tune vienne-- factor contributing to the rise of young tunisian men. as the article reported, the moderate islamist led government granted new religious freedoms after a half century of harshly enforced secularism. unfortunately, that freedom was exploited by extreme restrest -e new government has struggled to maintain a balance between security and religious freedom. and i raise the issue of tunisia to highlight the attractation of many youths even what should be considered moderate countries. easy trance skit to the continue innocent and the porous borders give radicalized fighters returns home give my opportunities to exploit populations. a terror cell claiming al liege jennin -- shiite populations in saudi arabia have been attacked by isis aligned groups. there are over 500 foreign fighters from lebanon, a country already suffering the effects of isis. we must counter isis before it grabs hold of youths in tunisia, and in france and even here at home. government leaderings must take initiatives to speak -- on its return from a visit to turkey last week, pope francis encouraged muslim leaders to issue global dcondemnations of terrorism. the u.s. and our partners should also encourage training for imom s's, the mosques should not be a breeding ground for terrorism. and ambassador, i hope you'll discuss in greeter detail the need for counter terrorism communication. we must continue to use our foreign aid to counter violent extremism in schools and among other vulnerable populations. this is a global threat and warrants a global response, no country is immune to the threat of terrorism and even as the united states leads over 60 nations in the fight against isis, we will always be the face of this coalition, and we must remain vigilant about the threat of radicalization or the threat of lone wolf attacks. again, i want to thank both of our witnesses for appearing here today, i look forward to a productive discussion on this incredibly challenging effort to koufbter radicalization, stem the flow of fighters in and out of syria. >> the chair will now recognize other members for opening statements. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, mr. wilson. >> on sunday both the fbi and the department of homeland security issued warnings to american military personnel will be the united states regarding possible threats from isil. sadly this comes back homeland security secretary jay johnson announced, quote, that the president would have is no credible information that isis is planning to attack the homeland of the united states, he said this in new york city in front of the council on foreign relations. this incredible statement by secretary johnson, preceded his unconstitutional review of illegal aliens, as a member of this committee as well as chairman of the ampled services subcommittee on personnel, i'm grateful to promote the well-being of members and their families both at home and abroad. national radio talk show host today in her program chose a digital probe, restated the fbi and dhs warnings of isis threats here in america to military families and i look forward to the hearing today on how we can protect american families from the grotesque threat of persons who seek to conduct mass murder of american families in our country. thank you. >> the chair recognizes the chairman from virginia mr. connelly for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and i would hope that we guard against facile answers against the president. some of the president's loudest critics could not bring themselves to support his request to retaliate in syria against the use of chemical weapons and had the president heeded their advice, a year 3456 two years ago, isil today would be better equipped and better trained because it drew from the very insurgents that the president was urging us to arm and train. i think the question is why, what motivates these men and women, especially men to join this barbaric movement. it's a very troubling question for the west and for islam itself. secondly how are they recruited? widely reported accounts of the use of social immediate y'all, very sophisticated, once it's appealed do we understand it? and finally, what are our options. option number one, priority number one is to pre-empt or prevent them getting to syria, because once they get to syria, we have a whole different set of challenges that require a whole different set of answers. so i'm looking forward to exploring those questions in today's hearing. thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you gentlemen, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. cook for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman. you know, it's a sad commentary on what's going on in the world right now. just when you think you put down one terrorist group, there's another one that ridesrises fro ashes and it's something that underscores the fact that we must stay every vigilant and quite frachbingly we have to have a military that doesn't have its budget cut to the bone, because you never know what's going to happen tomorrow. i have been on this planet a long time. ted, i saw that smirk on your face and it's probably in my opinion, the world is probably most dangerous it has ever been since i have been solved in those things, i've been in combat, been in war and now you strive to go forward and make the wormtd safe, not only for your country, but for your kids and your grand children. so thank you for having this hearing, i think this is something we cannot fall asleep on and as i said earlier, we got to be ever vigilant and question got this stuff going on. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from new york, mr. higgins for his opening statement. >> the rapid conquest of a territory covering large portions of syria and iraq is in part owed to the prolific recruitment of foreign fighters, which is now in excess of 15,000, part of the sbeg ral part of the strategy must be an effect tiff program to stem the flow of foreign fighter who not only add to the foreign fighters strength, but who also represent a serious threat when they return to their countries of origin. of greatest concern are the roughly 2,000 foreign fighter e originating in foreign countries. until it can be properly addressed, the islamic state's proficient use of social media and other mediums to facilitate the recruitment of radicalization of these individuals. i look forward to today's discussion with our witnesses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois. >> thank you mr. chairman, under both committees under which i szczerbiak. -- serve. we're bombing isis, that's good, i wish we had started that back in january when there was only a few thousand of them. today we're playing a lot of catch up. i just recently got back from iraq, i guess two months ago now, a month and a half. when i left in '09 as a pilot in the military, the war was won and when i wchblt back just a couple of months ago, it was devastating to see. i hope we begin to see from this administration a strategy for syria, i echo what a lot of people have said. 200,000 dead syrians today, many of which are women and children, by the evil dictatorship of bashar al assad, which is no protector of christianity. the reason this rebellion exists, the reason people would even be attracted is isis, some people see him as the best alternative for assad. so i thihopefully we'll begin tr that from to the administration, it's been a few years, but maybe we'll catch some good news here soon and i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from rhode island for his opening statements. >> the mr. chairman, for holding this hearing on this very important issue. addressing that threat with a comprehensive and carefully developed and thoughtful strategy must be a top priority of our foreign policy. all options and their constitutions need to be carefully considered. even as the administration ramps up it's response with a $5.6 billion request from the president to aim rebels in syria, isil continues to attract foreign fighters, krug fighters from western countries, we must do all we can to stop this flow of fighter into the region. and we must exam ming how and why isil is -- access to additional fighting personnel and battleal resources. i look forward to hearing the perspective of the witnesses we have assembled on thisz important issues. >> are there any other members tochb majority side? the chair recognizes the gentle lady from florida, ms. frankle for one minute. >> thank you very much for being here. i have to confess just a little bit of uneasiness of really what we should be doing with isil. but there are two issues that have been floating around in my mind that i'll try to articulate, just based on some things i have read or heard and i would like to get your reaction as you go forward. one to pick up on my colleague who talked about al assad and hundreds of thousands of his own people that he's slaughtered. and causing such a -- many of them, thousands to flee into countries like turkey deza destabilize those countries and some will say that the isil is enemy is the firest fighter gernls assad. so my question is how do you balance going after isil, and are you helping assad, are we helping assad in that regard. and then the second issue that i have read and heard people say is that our actions, whether it's bombing, air strikes or whatever, that we tend to inflame certain folks that will cause them to use our actions as a recruitment for isil. i would like to hear your reaction to that. i yield back, mr. poe. >> anyone else wish to make an opening statement? mr. kennedy, one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you to the chairman and ranking members of this committee for holding this hearing. to our witnesses, thank you for coming here today, thank you for your service to our country. a number of my colleagues have already touched on the issues around trying to limit the number of foreign fighters coming in to syria in the region and obviously that's critical. the other as pekts of this is our ability to monitor their movements after they're there and once they return home. this puts an awful lot of pressure on our intelligence agency's apparatus to try and make sure we can successfully identify those fighters once they try to leave and try to gain entry back into the united states and canada. i would love to hear your assessment of those capabilities, how much confidence we have in our intelligence communities, in order to conduct those operations, if they need additional resources if they need to do so and what road blocks you might see in making sure they are right every time and that's something that doesn't slip through the crackses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois, mr. snyder more one minute. >> i would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today and sharing what ask being done and a very serious concern. it seems that there are three challenges we face, one is cutting off the source of these fighters, i would be interested in hearing your take as was mentioned earlier, why so many are coming from five county are tries, five countries represent half the total, morocco, tunisia, turkey, jordan and saudi arabia, what's being done to predict their progress towards syria and iraq, how do we prevent them from going and how do we make sure that they're not allowed to come back. an i yield back my time. >> anyone else? >> i'll introduce our witnesses and give them time for their opening statements. the honorable robert bradke serves as advisor for skierian born -- -- previously served as our ambassador to croatiana. prior to joining dhs, he spent several years in private practice before a decades long tenure where he focused on the middle east. ambassador bradke, we'll start with you, you u have five minutes. >> chairman poe, distinguished members of the subcommittees. few for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of the state department of this hearing on isis and the threat from foreign fighters. i would ask that the full text of my statement be included in the record and i'll proceed with a summary of my statement. mr. chairman, the state department along with other agencies, the united states government is deeply concerned about the threat posed by foreign fighters, who have travelled to syria and iraq to participate in the conflicts there. these fighters, many only whom have joined isil, al nu skrsra other terrorist organizations are a serious threat to our allies and a serious threat to the united states. these fighters may try to trourn their home countries or other countries and carry out attacks, in response to this, the united states has been working closely with our syrian partners for over two years. the united states has intensified it's response by building a coalition of more than 60 countries with the-goal of degrading and defeating isil. john allen is leeding a comprehensive strategy including military support to our partners, dits disrupting the flow of foreign parters, stopping isil's funding, exposing isis' true nature. today i would like to describe to you how we're fighting the foreign fighter in isil. not only with the -- broader frame work of the threat posed by other terrorist organizations and groups such as al nusra and the khorasan group, critical to countering this threat is our engagement with our foreign partn partners. the state department has been leading a government outreach effort with our foreign partn partners, an effort that's being carried out in all of our branchs of government. the department of homeland security, the department of justice u the department of the treasury, the federal bureau of investigation, our military commands as well as our embassies overseas. many my capacity as senior advisor for foreign engagement, i have let interagency delegation vision sits to 17 countries to address this issue with our partners. we and our partners reck nooirz that we must use all the tools at our disposal and correspondent across a wide range of activities. let me outline for you very briefly, seven areas where we are engaging with our foreign partners. first is information sharing, to prevent and interdict the travel of foreign fighters, we are working bilaterally to bolster -- we have called upon our partners to make increased use of multilateral arrangements for sharing information, specifically interpol's sforn fighter fusion cell. second is law enforcement cooperation. we're using formal and informal mechanisms to help foreign authorities to bring suspected terrorists to trial. third, is capacity building. we have worked closely with a number of partner countries, including tunisia to help them strengthen their infrastructure to tackle the foreign fighter threat, including stronger counter terrorism legislation and improved interagency coordination. fourth is stopping the flow of external financing to terrorist organizations. together with the treasury department, we have aggressively raised with our partners, cases where we believe individuals or organizations are raising funds that are used to support isil or other terrorist groups. in recent months, as isil has gained control of more territories, we're also engaging with our partners in the region to cut off isis from the sale of oil. we have sought to expose the true nature of isil and other terrorist groups through the work on social media. sixth is countering violent extremism. in my meetings with foreign part mes, i have found that all of us are looking for ways to keep individuals from being radicalized. we are sharing our enexperience in countering violent extremism programs that are being carried out in the united states and are working with partners to engage their own communities. seventh and lastly is border and aviation security. my colleague from the department of homeland security will go into this area in greater detail. parallel with this bilateral engagement, we have joined with our partners in multilateral forum. approved united nations security council resolution 2178, a binding resolution that calls upon all countries among other things to prevent and suppress the recruiting, organizing, transporting or equipping foreign fighters. also in september, at a meeting chaired by secretary kerry and the turkish foreign minister, the global counter terrorism forum adopted the first ever set of international good practices for a more effective response to the terrorist fighter phenomenon. the foreign terrorist fighters working group, shared with the netherlands in morocco will take place in marakesh december 15 and 16. mr. chairman, madam chairman, in his speech at west point, president obama stated we must shift our counter terrorism policy to and i quote more effectively partner with countries where terrorist networks seek a foothold, end quote, as i hope i have indicated in this statement, we are engaging with our partners, using all the tools at our does posal in order to deal with the threat posed by those fighters. i stand ready to address some of the issues the members raiseded during their statements and answer your questions, thank you. >> the chair recognizes you for your five-minute opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman, madam chairman and ranking member sherman and members of the subcommittees. thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the efforts by department of homeland security to protect our nation from terrorists operating out of syria and iraq. i'm going to address how dhs helps protect the homeland from foreign fighters who are not from syria or iraq but who travel there to participate in the conflict and then may seek to attack the united states. u.s. persons, u.s. interests or u.s. allies. let me talk about the islamic state of iraq. i'm not going to do a full press briefing on isil, that would be in a classified setting. any credible threat to the u.s. home land from isil, however as has been noted, isil has encouraged it's supporters to carry out attacks and such attacks could be subjected without specific direction from isil with little or no warning. in addition terrorist group skrs shown interest in attacks on u.s.-bound airplanes. terrorists have tried to conceal impro viszed exploeive devices and commercial electronics in years of the body they don't think will be thoroughly searched and in shoes, cosmetics or liquids in order to try to diffuse airplane screening. first aviation security. in early july, secretary johnson directed the transportation security administration to enhance screening at a number of oversees airports with direct flights to the united states. tsa increased the number of additional airports to use enhanced screening methods. dhs will work with air carriers in foreign airports to adjust screening measures to take into account changing to the threat. second preclearance. one of secretary johnson's initiate tys is to -- preclearance means that a plane takes off, all passengers and their baggage are inspected by u.s. customs and border protections officers, using their full legal authorities and using enhanced aviation security approved by tsa. we have had preclearance in canada and the caribbean and we have recently expanded it to air land and the united arab emretsz. third, tracking foreign fighters. dhs along with the fbi, the national counter terrorism center, and the u.s. intelligence community is making greater efforts to track foreign fighter who is fought in syria who come from the united states or who seek to enter the united states from another country. fourth, we're encouraging other governments to collect their own information on foreign fighters. this topic is almost always item number one on dh s's agenda with european governments. we are helped by u.n. security council resolution 2178 which has provided a new push for european and other governments to use technology like advance ed -- fifth, enhancing the elect frontic -- and the visa waiver program, vwp. dhs is increasing our ability to even -- travel to the united states without a state department issued visa under the skrees a waver program. on no 3, dhs began requiring additional data elements that will allow tcp to allow better security screening of vwp travel eve ers. the additional data provides an additional layer of security. sixth, dhs is continually working to help communities identify homegrown violent extremists. secretary johnson regularly speaks of the challenge posed by the independent actor or lone wolf. in many respects, this is the hardest terrorist threat to detect and one of concern to dhs. we help detect hves through outreach and community engagement. secretary johnson personally participates in community meetings in chicago, columbus, minneapolis and los angeles that focuses on community concerns and building trust and partnership to counter violent extremism. second information sharing within the u.s. government. reaching dhs personnel in the field, as well as our state, local tribal and territorial partners. the fbi releases joint intelligence bulletins to provide context and backgrounds for them to use. the interagency partners work continually to share information with each other about possible foreign fighters. mr. chairman, madam chairman, since 9/11, our partners in the law enforcement and intelligence community have vastly improved the nation's ability to detect and disrupt terrorist plots, we ask for your support as we continue to adapt to emerging threats and to improve our ability to keep our nation safe. thank you very much. we obviously are happy to answer your questions. >> thanning both of you, i'll recognize myself for five minutes for some questions. the united states is conducting air strikes, how have u.s. air strikes affected the flow of foreign fighters into syria? if it has. >> with my sense looking at the numbers is that it's hard to say at this point that what the impact is, it is relatively soon after these strikes have taken place, the numbers that we monitor, the numbers that we track, are estimates at best, and again i think it's probably early to determine precisely what the impact is, it's obviously precisely what the impact is. it's obviously something, again, that our intelligence community is looking at, and it's possible that in a classified briefing they might be able to give you their assessment. again, from my perspective, the numbers, again, can vary for a variety of reasons. sometimes it's because we get better information from our partners. and that results in an increase in the estimate. >> so we don't know if it's effective or not? >> i would say that if the issue is effective in reducing the flow of foreign fighters i would say at this point i would want to see more evidence before i come to a conclusion. >> mr. warrick do you have a different answer? >> no. there is an answer to that question but i think it needs to be delivered in a classified setting. >> turkey seems to me, appears to be to be a complicit, to some extent of allowing foreign fighters to flow through turkey into syria. would you weigh in on your opinion of what the government of turkey, their position is on foreign fighters going through turkey into syria? ambassador, you be first. >> mr. chairman, turkey is a very important partner of ours in the region. we share a very important common interest with them. we have a shared interest in seeing a political settlement in syria, that removes assad. we have a shared interest in combatting the terrorist organizations that are operating in syria and iraq. we have a shared interest in dealing with the humanitarian crisis and also shared interest in promoting stability in iraq. >> i understand that. that's not my question. my question is the government of turkey complicit in allowing foreign fighters to go through their country and fight for isil? >> i was trying to explain some of the perspective on this problem, sir. the turks have more than a million refugees inside turkey. turks have a 900 kilometer border. >> i've bento one of those syrian camps. >> there's 37 million tourist rifle in turkey every year. we believe turkey and we've had an extensive dialogue on this issue for some time is taking steps trying to deal with the flow of foreign fighters. turks have added a considerable number of names to their denied entry list. turks are working with us in funding that might come from oil sales to the foreign terrorist organizations. >> isn't turkey buying oil from isil and coming to turkey from isil. >> there's considerable traffic we have discussed with the turks across the border. again the latest information the turks are taking steps -- >> are they buying oil from isis. >> if turkey is buying oil from isil no. are they smuggling across the border, yes. we're trying to cut off working with the turks. the other thing i would mention is sharing of information with turkey. we're seeing much better information sharing with turkey with the united states and also with our european partners. >> they are not complicit. that's my question. >> my answer is they are not complicit. >> social media, we know, obvious recruitment is being done in a very effective manner, appears through social media. there's the argument by some in our law enforcement agency not to shut down social media because that's how they track and keep up with terrorist organizations and individuals. what is your opinion on that? doing more or less or leaving it alone, tissue of all of social media, how it's effective in tracking and recruiting of terrorists to join isil, should we be proactive to shut that network down legally, of course, or do as law enforcement says we want to watch this to see where these guys are going. what's your opinion on that, ambassador and then i'll get mr. warrick and then that will be it. >> the issue of freedom of the internet, freedom of expression on the internet goes well beyond my responsibilities. we clearly watch very closely the use of the internet by these organizations. we have a dialogue with the service providers. in cases where the posts that are being used, used on social media accounts is perhaps, in our view contrary to the terms of service. so, again, this is a complex question, it's a complicated question, goes well beyond my responsibilities. certainly any use of the internet for illegal activities such as fundraising or incitement to violence is something we would take strong legal action against. but there are gray areas here of the use of massacre net and social media, and the question is how one responds to that. i think we also believe that if you shut down one site you shut down one account, the chances of that popping back up somewhere else are quite high and quite great. so the other tool we use is counter messaging ourselves through the center for strategic counterterrorism communications that was mentioned earlier, we try to put out counter messaging on social immediate area on the internet to push back in that way rather than simply try to take down the message they are putting out. >> mr. warrick, i'll let you put that in writing since we're out of time. i have to recognize the ranking member, mr. sherman for his five minutes. >> thank you. first let me clarify a statement in made towards the end of my opening statement. the state department has thousands of experts in american law. you don't particularly need more. we also have experts in international law. those experts help us persuade western countries of the righteousness of our positions. i have been pushing on the state department for, i think the better part of a year, to hire an expert in islamic law. and the response i get is, well we hope islamic jurists will issue statements that are helpful to us and we'll just call them and ask them to come up with something on their own, or now and then he'll call-up a professor of islamic law, we don't need to hire anybody. i analogize that if you were trying to get an american jurist. would you say my cause is just please come up with the legal theories that support me. would you rely on hiring advice from any professor you can get on a phone or hire somebody who is an expert in american law to get an american jurist to issue a statement helpful to you? it is incredibly important that we get islamic scholars, experts and jurists to issue rulings adverse toy isis and favorable to the united states. it is about time that the state department hire its first islamic legal expert to work full time on that. maybe a couple. and it's time that at least somebody be hired at the state department not because they went to a fancy american school, or because they did well on the foreign service exam. mr. ambassador, security council resolution 2178 requires u.n. members to criminalize those who go to syria and iraq to fight with the extremists. have european allies particularly visa waiver countries complied with that? >> if i may just comment briefly on your first point on islamic lawyers, islamic scholars. >> can i ask the ambassador to move the mic closer to him. >> i have limited time so i'll ask you to address my question first. about resolution 2178 from the security council. >> we having worked with our partners in our sbaes in europe and elsewhere to engage with these countries on implementing 2178. >> can you provide for the record a list of which visa waiver countries are in compliance, which have promised to become in compliance and which are not in compliance that have no very serious promise to us? >> we've had two months since the resolution was passed. >> i'm just asking for a chart. >> i would be happy to provide a list of countries. >> their legislative process may be slow but i know your staff will be fast and get a chart for our record and we'll identify those countries. likewise if you can provide a chart of islamic, particularly arab states, five the gentleman from illinois identified as the majorer senders of foreign fighters whether they have passed laws that would criminalize going to syria or iraq and fighting with al nustra or isis. >> i would be happy to do that. >> i take it from your answer we're doing everything we can to push our friends in the arab world and europe -- >> there are countries that have already in place as we do laws that prohibit criminalized -- >> are there any countries that have said no we'll just let these folks come back and monitor them. >> no country has taken such a cavalier attitude. there are countries that do believe that some of the fighters who come back have been disillusioned by their participation. have not paid in terrorist activities while in syria. they believe those fighters should be monitored rather than incarcerated. those are decisions those countries make. >> is that in compliance with u.n. security council resolution 2178, that view? >> i'm not a lawyer myself. i have to take a look at that issue. there are different approaches how you deal with returning fighters particularly ones who have not carried out any evidence -- >> look i don't care if you're peeling potatoes in the mess, if you're part of the isis army you belong in prison until this war against islamic extremism is over. that's what security council resolution 2178 says. i hope your chart, you'll add to your chart a list of those countries that have told us that we do not think we should criminalize those of our citizens and residents who went to isis, joined the army but say they didn't actually kill anybody. >> also an issue, sir, of being able to prove in a court of law this kind of activity. >> that's fine. >> people on the ground in syria to come to a courtroom to testify. so, again, i think our partners use different tools depending on what they know about a particular individual in the case. that's all i could say. >> chair recognizes the gentlelady from florida. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman. isil's reach into the united states has been documented. we also know that isil is known to be tech savvy, as we've discussed, used social media tools to its advantage to help recruit foreign fighters to its cause and we've seen isil graffiti here in d.c. mr. warrick, you testified that dhs is quote, unaware of any specific credible threat to the u.s. homeland from isil, end quote and following up on what mr. wilson said in his opening statement, on sunday dhs and fbi issued a joint bulletin urging our service members to scrub their social media accounts, to use caution with their posts. is there a specific threat to our service men and women most of whom who are stagttioned her in america. isil is known to fund its operations from a variety of sources including illicit oil station, extortion, organized crime, donations from outside sources. we've seen terrorist groups like hezbollah fund their terror activities through the sale of drugs, often from sources in the western hemisphere. what are we doing to target isil's funding? what kind of isil collaboration with drug cartels is there any evidence of that, especially here in our hemisphere and if so what are we doing fight this? and lastly on our allies, in order to defeat isil, we're going to need full cooperation with our coalition partners especially those from the middle east. the ministers of the gcc the gulf cooperation council has scheduled multiple meetings to discuss the ongoing threat of isil and possible ways to fight this terrorist entity and just yesterday, bahrain foreign ministers announced the gulf states are setting up a joint military command based in saudi arabia to not only counter the isil threat but the threat from iran as well. so i'll ask in what ways are we work with the gulf nations toing fight this radical islam ideology and is this joint command a signal that they my be willing to put boots on the ground in syria? >> thank you very much, madam chairman. let me start on that and then obviously ambassador bradtke will have something to say. on the isil funding issue that question actually probably would be best addressed to the treasury department under secretary cohen and assistant secretary glazer are working very intensively in trying to address the isil funding issue. dhs play as maul role in that in terms of criminal investigations. >> is there a specific threat -- >> i'm working backwards. on that one -- let me go back to what we said over the weekend. there were statements, public statements by isil in september to the effect of calls for attacks against u.s. service members, u.s. officials and members of the intelligence community. we are not aware of any specific threat saying that at a particular time there would be an attack on a particular service member, but we really do want to be able to have members of the state and local law enforcement and members of the military community and their families take certain reasonable precautions to further reduce the risk of any types of events taking place. we're very mindful of the techniques of the use of social media that you allege -- that you described and that isil is able to use and obviously they are able to survey social media as well -- >> thank you. ambassador, on the issue of our allies, are they fighting back this radical islam ideology and do you have any info about whether they are willing to put boots on the ground in syria? >> well, we have a very close partnership with the countries in the gulf. they are members of this coalition that i mentioned of 60 countries. general allen has worked to put together. a number of them have carried out air strikes in iraq. we're getting that kind of assistance from them. we're working closely with them to cut off funding. i was in kuwait and qatar over the summer. qatar has just pass ad new law on private charities which will be more effective in regulating the flow of funding in cases where individuals contribute money thinking it's going a humanitarian cause and ended up to a terrorist organization. they are taking steps in that regard. they are working with us on the counter messaging front. there was a conference of kuwait that undersecretary went to. we talked about what we're doing on counter messaging. we're working through the center of strategic counterterrorism communications. a number of our partners in the gulf are interested in setting up similar operations perhaps or having a regionally based counter messaging brace. we have a close partnership. >> thank you my time is up. is the graffiti we've seen in d.c. and other cities are those legitimate or do you think that they are not? >> that would be a question that i think would be better addressed either by fbi or domestic law enforcement. they could help you with that. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from florida mr. deutsch for five minutes. >> thank you. ambassador bradtke could you pick up where you left off on the message of counter messaging. can you speak in little more detail about the efforts that we're under taking, our friends from around the world sharing those efforts with us and how do we determine whether we're being successful and is there any evidence at this point that we are? >> let me same someone who has worked for a long time in the state department, united states government i find the center for strategic counterterrorism communications a very interesting and really unique operation. it is an effort to push back in a very direct, very blunt forthright way, putting out some very tough messages on the internext inte intern internet, on social media. the kinds of things that are used putting on social media the atrocities that al qaeda and isil are carrying out so people can see the true nature of isil. they highlight fact that the main victims of isil are muslims, so that people understand that this is not a way of helping other muslims, that, in fact, these organizations are killing other muslims. they talk about what isil and other groups are doing to local populations, the sunni tribes, others. so, again, very powerful, very direct messages. some of the numbers in the last period of time perhaps the last ten or 12 months they have done 25 videos. they've put out more than a 1,000 anti-isil posters or tweets. way we have some sense this is having an impact -- there's two ways. one you get a number of hits on the sites, the number of followers to the cscc's operations. the other way is the efforts by isil and these groups to take down the cscc's sites through hacking. so they are obviously worried that our message is getting out. they are obviously worried that enough, they actually want to take action to do something about it. other countries have been very interested in what we're doing. we've had a number of countries ranging from belgium and france to some of our north african partners that have come to visit the cscc's operations here in washington. we this conference in kuwait where our partners in the gulf and other places are looking at whether they can do something similar. the european union is interested in trying to get its own counter messaging up and running. the eu is providing funding for the uk which has a counter messaging program to try to explain and share its experience with other eu member states. so, again, this whole area of counter messaging is very active, and my own sense is while we can't know for sure whether some individual has seen something on our website and has said that's the true nature of isil and i won't go to syria, but the fact that we get hits on the site, the fact that the site has been subject of hacking by these groups indicates to me that there's some effectiveness. >> can you share how many times videos have been viewed, how many hits there have been either on the posts, how many tweets have been viewed? >> i would be happy to get that for the record. >> okay. and is there -- you said that the uk has a center. the work that we're doing meant strictly -- who are we to discussion on? clearly i imagine the message would be slightly different, targeting an australian audience than a belgium audience or america. >> that's why we think it's important other countries develop a capability. the cscc is doing this in its efforts in three languages. arabic, of course. erdu because of its messaging that goes beyond the syrian/iraq front. english as well. fwlish is a most recent development. as you say there's a need for other, for example, french we know the fighters from belgium, france and that's why we think it's important that other countries also develop this capability. >> in my remaining seconds, mr. warrick, this may be something you may be able to respond to in your discussions with some of my colleagues, if not if you could respond in writing after, your testimony about the efforts by the secretary to increase the pre-clearance at overseas airports, i would very much like to know what the plan is, what airports we've targeted by when and how many we've already put in place today. >> thank you very much. actually that's a question we would prefer not to address in an open session. you'll appreciate the sensitivity not just in terms of discussions with foreign partners but we have no intention ever laying out a road map of where we are not because of what, effect that might have on the thinking of our adversaries. in a closed setting we can get someone who has a great deal more information on that. >> i was only following up on countries identified in your testimony. >> it's a public matter and people see our officers in their uniforms. >> okay. thank you. i yield back. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from south carolina mr. wilson. >> thank you. thank you for this joint subcommittee hearing today. this is very important. both of your testimony has been very enlightening. i'm very concerned. the american people need to know as the president i believe is ignoring the jihadist threat that abc news of all people monday night reported the day before the u.s. launched its biggest air blitz against the terrorist group in iraq and syria in late september, isis spokesman called upon muslims in the u.s. and europe to attack members of the military. the direct quote, do not ask for anyone's advice and do not seek anyone's verdict. kill the believer. whether he is a civilian or military for they have the same ruling. both of them are disbelievers. both of them are considered to be waging war. end of quote. he said in an audio speech posted online on september 21st. mr. warrick, what is your current threat assessment of an attack by domestic jihadists or foreign fighters on the u.s. homeland? >> thank you very much. that statement was posted in social media by a foreign -- by a foreign participant attributing it to him. he was not in the homeland when the statement was made but intending that his message reach out to prospective sympathizers here in the united states. there are obviously a number of things that dhs tries to do to prevent people from becoming radicalized to violence. this is through the community efforts which i addressed in my testimony. in addition there are sorry steps that other law enforcement organizations like the fbi do in terms of trying to track activity and where there are steps especially towards foreign travel that prospective sympathizers make and gets on the radar screen of people at dhs. there are a number of measures to address people who might be sympathetic to that kind of radicalizing messaging snoom the grotesque nature of that statement along with people carrying signs in english in say teheran, death to israel, death to america, the creed of hamas, the american people need to know and that is that we very well death more than you value life. this is serious. and i'm just very concerned that the president is focused on other items, i.e. congressional campaigns and has been missing the danger. based on the bulletin that was issued by dhs and fbi regarding soldiers online media accounts, what level of danger do you feel for our military and our military families? >> as i said there's no specific credible threat targeting specific people in a specific place but we think it's appropriate that people are prudent. and that social media postings should not describe military operational activities, nor should they describe law enforcement activities or other measures. this is something that we just caution people in our own organization and indeed in our military to be prudent in what they post on social media. but for people who take those reasonable steps, it's obviously very difficult for foreign fighters in syria to get to the united states and my department is working to make it even harder for that to happen. so, what we really do is encourage people to exercise reasonable prudence and then, obviously, there's the support that we need from communities to help be on the alert for things that they may notice on a local level before we in the federal government would ever see anything. >> with this warning by the fbi and department of homeland security, are you aware of any steps that the department of defense has taken to alert again service members, military families, veterans to what threats may be? >> the department of defense we know has guidance on that but, obviously, i leave to it them to describe their guidance to service members about social media postings. we just felt it was prudent for us to remind people that this is a time in which they should be prudent in measures about any activities or postings they may have. but the department of defense has a number of procedures and rulings that are in place and, obviously, can you get that information from them. >> thank you very much. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from virginia, mr. connolly for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ambassador bradtke, i was looking at your long and distinguished record of service to your country in the state department. but allow me without being disrespectful to mr. sherman's question, do you speak arabic? i'm sorry i can't hear without the microphone. >> do you have any expertise in the arab world. >> i've traveled with secretary christopher extensively -- >> you were never assigned to the region. >> no. >> so, is it not true that most of the foreign fighters recruited by or attracted to isil in syria come roughly from a handful of countries mostly arab countries, is that not true? >> many of the foreign fighters come from north africa, from arab countries that's correct. >> maybe you do or don't subscribe toy think the premise behind mr. sherman's questions but as the united states moves forward it stems me that the state department needs be promoting leadership from within that has particular focus on this region since that's what we're dealing with. and i mean that without, with no disrespect because sometimes somebody can function very well without any expertise in a particular subject matter because their organizational skills, presumably, that's true about you. but i do think, mr. sherman has a point that longer term the united states has got to get serious about this region and expertise in this region if we're going to address the challenges we face. let me ask a question. in looking at your seven point here's what we're doing i didn't see a mention of strengthening our relationship with the kurdish community which seems to be one of the military allies we got in the region and has a military capacity but needs be reinforced. why not? why didn't you talk about that. >> if you will permit me, mr. connolly, i do want to say a word or two -- >> i have to ask you to move closer to the mic. it's very hard to hear you. >> i would like to say a word or two about your initial comments. i was happily retired, mr. connolly. >> i saw that. >> was asked by senior officials by the state department to come back and take this job. i was asked to take this job not because of my expertise in arabic or countries in the middle east. i was asked to take this job because there was a belief that in 40 years of working for the state department i was able to deal with a wide variety of countries, that i could conduct dialogues with those countries on an effective basis and that i could draw on the many experts in the state department who are experts on those part of the world. this is not an effort i under take by myself. i have support of many people within the department of state. i have found as i've traveled that i don't think the fact that i don't speak arabic has been a hindrance. i've had meetings with leaders of islamic communities and fact i'm not an expert on islam has not prevented for example when i met the leader of the islamic community, i had a good discussion with him about steps they could take to put out the word about isil, about isil's not being a representative of islamic values. i don't feel the discussion i had with him was in any way hindered. >> i honor your career and i know you came back but i think mr. sherman has a point long term. this region is unraveling. it is a long term challenge, if not threat to us and to the west. it is profoundly disturbing what's happening and we have to have expertise in the region. that's not a comment about you. >> there's no disagreement. there's really brilliant new generation diplomats who are coming up through the ranks. >> i repeat i honor you for your service. i meant norespect at all. i was trying to reinforce his point. now i beg you to address the kurdish question because we're running out of time. >> the reason i didn't get more deeply into that is that it's not in my area of partner engagement. one of the lines of effort that general allen
fighters who are joining the militant group. witnesses who are joining the homeland security security and state department officials. this is two hours, 20 minutes. >> without objection, all members may have five days to the submit questions and extrainous materials. whether it's isis or al nusra or corson, there's -- the influx of foreign fighters far surpasses anything we have even seen in afghanistan. the scale of this mass migration is unprecedented and it results in deadly attacks. more foreign fighters have fought for islamic groups like isis in the last two years and then fought in iraq in afghanistan in the last 12 years. i have a map, i hope we can put that up on the screens. that show the areas that these fighters have come from they have come from all over the world. according to estimates, around 15,000 jihadists from over 80 countries have traveled to syria to fight. 2,000 of these fighters are from th the -- all of these western passport holders can travel freely in europe and even to the united states once they have finished their tour of duty in syria. none of this is hypothetical. we have seen returning jihadists go on murderous ram pageses before. a french jihadist killed three people during a -- in october, a wannabe jihadist traveled to kill a canadian soldier. a senior obama administration official in september said that some americans fought with isis in skiera have returned to the united states. one known example is the indication of eric harun. he actually fought with isis and al nusra in syria on an rpg team. he flew to dulles international airport where he was taken into custody by the fbi. pled guilty of lesser charges and was released in september of that same year. harun died of a drug overdose in 2014. he isn't the only american we need to be concerned about. european gjihadists are just as much a threat to america as they travel to the united states under a visa waiver program. i doubt that u.s. and european intelligence services know whoever one of these individuals may be, just as a side note, the dod and the fbi were both invited to be here today to testify at this hearing and they would not come. some say these individuals may slip through the cracks. the network is global sophisticated and effective. isis uses it's global network to recruit, fundraise and smuggle fighters into and out of syria. this is much more sophisticated network than anything we know from core al qaeda operatives out of pakistan and afghanistan. the best way to reduce the threat that these foreign fighters pose is to identify how the isis recruitment network works and develop a global strategy to destroy it. we need to understand what countries these fighters are coming from but also how they're getting into syria, once they leave their home countries. what kind of political pressure are we using on these countries to go after these networks? we're not sure what that is, that's part of the purpose of this hearing today. complicating issues further, there are a number of gulf countries who are either unwilling or unable to crack down on gulf countries. many of these countries act as a hub of foreign fighters, we need to domore to -- tackle the threat but we can't do this without a comprehensive plan. we also need to combat isis online recruitment networks, social media is crucial to the isis network of recruiting. they have a whole media center dedicated to -- this is how their recruitment works, after initial vetting by an isis recruiter, travel logistics are finalized. turkey is the most commonly used route. so called religious and physical training begins followed by testing the foreign fighters with small tasks and after that recruits are given their marching orders to go and fight. they're paid and they're given weapons. this is a well oiled machine and very organized. isis is only going to get better, more efficient and more deadly and will turn more attention to attacks on the west in years to come. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses this morning. i will now turn to the ranking member mr. sherman from california for his five-minute opening comments. >> isis is evil and they found ways to convince americans that they are more evil than other forces in the middle east, but the fact is that the enemies of isis are at least nearly as evil and i think demon straably -- if possible in the present decade. begs the question what will flourish in the territory, both the cyber territory, to the ideological territory and the physical territory that isis now occupies. isis's enemies now include the shiite axis of hezbollah, assad, the shiite militias of iraq under iranian guidance and of course tehran itself. and those enemies also include al qaeda and of course it's fully authorized branch, to the al nusra front. there is talk that isis may be able to carry on an operation outside the middle east, compare that to its enemies. in 1983, we saw americans die by the hundreds in beirut, in the 1990s, we saw attacks in south america from hezbollah and iran. and there was the attempt by iran to assassinate the saudi ambassador recently right here in washington, d.c. no one can doubt that the iranians, the syrian government and hezbollah have the -- have a capacity to get their agents into western countries in the united states after all, there's an iranian embassy just a couple of hundred miles north of where we sit at the united nations. as to al qaeda, their capacity to carry out attacks in the west was demonstrated on september 11 and the khorasan group which we headed in 2002 was headed into syria as a part of and alliance request the al nusra front, just as important as destroying isis is what would occupy it's deolo. we have to prevent foreign fighters from joining isis, but the turks seem much more focused on what they see as their enemies, assad and many of the kurdish fighters. they have not allowed us to use interlink to attack isis, unless we alter our policy and decide to use our air force against assad. whether we should do that depends in part as to who would take over syria if assad were destroyed, right now al nusra and isis seem to be first and second in line, perhaps not in that order. in addition to president does not have the legal authority to wage war for more than -- he claims that authority with some support, the authority that is to say to go after isis on the theory that it is a splinter group of al qaeda and in 2001, this congress authorized every effort against al qaeda. we must urge countries to seal borders and to deter their citizens from joining isis and other extremist forces in syria and iraq. we must dispel this notion that the people can go fight and then return and be monitored. if a foreign fighter returns, they must be imprisoned. and u.n. security council resolution 2178 passed in september requires countries to pass laws as we have for decades, that would put such terrorist operate tys in jail. that would do a lot making it clear, especially from european countries that returning fighters are not going to be monitored, they are going to be imprisoned, is not only consistent with the united nations security resolution but will act to deter foreign fighters. finally, i will be using these hearings to once again urge the state department to hire people for their expertise in islamic theology and law. not because of fatwa issued by the state department would have credibility, but because state departments efforts to persuade legal scholars, islamic legal scholars around the world consists in going to them and saying, these guys are terrible, you think of the legal authority, you think of the legal arguments that will allow you to come out against them. no one would go to an american jurist and say my adversary is legal, you come up with the doctrine, you instead hire lawyers that know the law and that come to plead the -- when we get the recognized legal scholars in the islamic world on our side, that would be helpful, and we are going to courts around the world. i yield back. >> i now reck fly the chairman of the subcommittee on west africa for her opening statement. >> thank you so much, judge. since the beginning of this congress, our two subcommittees have held hearings to explore the crisis in iraq and the rise of isil and we have yet to hear of a comprehensive strategy to address these issues from the administration. for more than three years now, the administration has failed to address the syria crisis head on. and instead has let the country become a safe haven for more and more terrorists to seek to harm the united states and our interests. we on this committee have continued to sound the alarm and have been pleading with the administration to be more pro active in syria, to avoid skmilover effects that could destabilize the region. unfortunately, our calls have gone unanswered, even former officials from this same administration have been public about their own criticism over the president's syria strategy or lack thereof. the longer the administration delays and fumbles about, we must have a comprehensive strategy that not only remonths assad from power but addressings thor rang issue, and links the iraq, iran and isis together. all this does not give me much confidence that officials have a satisfactory plan in place to address the foreign fighters threat. while it is important that we refrain from -- when talking about isil and foreign fighters, it is equally important that we not downplay the threat. the cia estimated in september that isil. now has between 21,000 and 31,500 total fighters in syria and iraq and at least 15,000 of whom are foreign fighters from 8 0 countries. u.s. intelligence officials have acknowledged a ---due to, quotes, the changing dping familiar aches of the battlefield, new recruits and other factor, it is difficult to -- what we do know is that the majority of foreign fighters are from nations in the middle east however there is a significant number, according dhs testimony that come from other countries including eover 100 americans. the reach of this terrorist organization has extended beyond our initial assessment as we saw the tragic killing of four people at the jewish museum in brussels or to the attack in belgium where isis -- in the hafbd, body and head, offering to after offering to help officials with their investigation, the possibility of homegrown or loep wolf attacks inspired by isil should be a -- the european union which has been soft on terrorism in the past, must take heed of these examples and heighten their terrorism laws as well as increase their cooperation with us. we must also remember that the process of foreign fighters joining isil and the group's radicalization of westerners are still in the beginning stages. it took years before we saw the results of individuals joining osama bin laden and al qaeda in afghanistan, and the complete threat posed by isil foreign fighters remains to be seen. yes it is true that the problem of foreigners joining a terrorist group is not a new problem, this should not allow us, however, to be complacent, the sheer number of foreign fighters to isil is cause for alarm and any -- we must look rat all options available to us to prevent fighters from traveling to syria and iraq from returning to the united states and the recruitment in the first place. whether that is tightening travel restrictions on those who try to enter certain countries or go back to the u.s., increasing pejities, providing support to terrorist groups, enhancing cooperation with our allies. we have to have a realistic debate about the measures necessary to take on foreign fighters, to monitor them here and overseas to arrest and detain them, before and after an attack all while assuring that our civil liberties are protected. i look forward, mr. chairman to hearing from our witnesses for what exactly the administration is doing to tackle this problem in both short and long-term as well as to encourage a debate we all need to be having. thank you, sir. >> i now turn to the ranking member of the skub committee in the middle east and north africa. mr. ted deutsch from there from for his opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman. the issue of foreign fighters joining isis and other extremist groups in syria and iraq, poses a grave threat to global security and deserves this congress's full attention. >> the ri the rise of isis has been truly unprecide unprecident. isis broke away from al qaeda. isis has not just focused it's efforts on the battlefield. it's developed a propaganda machine which is spreading it's message to nearly every corner of the earth. isis producing pamphlets videos et cetera. with twitter and you tube, isis has a direct line across the world and in a grotesque display of disregard for human life, isis has used brutal beheadings of americans as a propaganda tool. young men and women from the middle east, north africa, europe and beyond have signed up to join the fight in syria. estimates now put the number of foreign fighters at over 16,000. three years ago, we were first alarmed by reports of fighters coming into syria from other countries in the region, mainly from saudi arabia and north africa. we should be particularly concerned about to the alarming number of fighters coming from north africa. the chaos that followed the revolutions in tunisia and libya have followed very different results. libya has been overruin by competing militias, it is on the verge of becoming a failed state. however, tunisia's young, mostly educated population has struggled with unemployment and tunisia does not have libya's oil resources to keep the country afloat. so despite tune vienne-- factor contributing to the rise of young tunisian men. as the article reported, the moderate islamist led government granted new religious freedoms after a half century of harshly enforced secularism. unfortunately, that freedom was exploited by extreme restrest -e new government has struggled to maintain a balance between security and religious freedom. and i raise the issue of tunisia to highlight the attractation of many youths even what should be considered moderate countries. easy trance skit to the continue innocent and the porous borders give radicalized fighters returns home give my opportunities to exploit populations. a terror cell claiming al liege jennin -- shiite populations in saudi arabia have been attacked by isis aligned groups. there are over 500 foreign fighters from lebanon, a country already suffering the effects of isis. we must counter isis before it grabs hold of youths in tunisia, and in france and even here at home. government leaderings must take initiatives to speak -- on its return from a visit to turkey last week, pope francis encouraged muslim leaders to issue global dcondemnations of terrorism. the u.s. and our partners should also encourage training for imom s's, the mosques should not be a breeding ground for terrorism. and ambassador, i hope you'll discuss in greeter detail the need for counter terrorism communication. we must continue to use our foreign aid to counter violent extremism in schools and among other vulnerable populations. this is a global threat and warrants a global response, no country is immune to the threat of terrorism and even as the united states leads over 60 nations in the fight against isis, we will always be the face of this coalition, and we must remain vigilant about the threat of radicalization or the threat of lone wolf attacks. again, i want to thank both of our witnesses for appearing here today, i look forward to a productive discussion on this incredibly challenging effort to koufbter radicalization, stem the flow of fighters in and out of syria. >> the chair will now recognize other members for opening statements. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, mr. wilson. >> on sunday both the fbi and the department of homeland security issued warnings to american military personnel will be the united states regarding possible threats from isil. sadly this comes back homeland security secretary jay johnson announced, quote, that the president would have is no credible information that isis is planning to attack the homeland of the united states, he said this in new york city in front of the council on foreign relations. this incredible statement by secretary johnson, preceded his unconstitutional review of illegal aliens, as a member of this committee as well as chairman of the ampled services subcommittee on personnel, i'm grateful to promote the well-being of members and their families both at home and abroad. national radio talk show host today in her program chose a digital probe, restated the fbi and dhs warnings of isis threats here in america to military families and i look forward to the hearing today on how we can protect american families from the grotesque threat of persons who seek to conduct mass murder of american families in our country. thank you. >> the chair recognizes the chairman from virginia mr. connelly for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and i would hope that we guard against facile answers against the president. some of the president's loudest critics could not bring themselves to support his request to retaliate in syria against the use of chemical weapons and had the president heeded their advice, a year 3456 two years ago, isil today would be better equipped and better trained because it drew from the very insurgents that the president was urging us to arm and train. i think the question is why, what motivates these men and women, especially men to join this barbaric movement. it's a very troubling question for the west and for islam itself. secondly how are they recruited? widely reported accounts of the use of social immediate y'all, very sophisticated, once it's appealed do we understand it? and finally, what are our options. option number one, priority number one is to pre-empt or prevent them getting to syria, because once they get to syria, we have a whole different set of challenges that require a whole different set of answers. so i'm looking forward to exploring those questions in today's hearing. thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you gentlemen, the chair recognizes the gentleman from california, mr. cook for one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman. you know, it's a sad commentary on what's going on in the world right now. just when you think you put down one terrorist group, there's another one that ridesrises fro ashes and it's something that underscores the fact that we must stay every vigilant and quite frachbingly we have to have a military that doesn't have its budget cut to the bone, because you never know what's going to happen tomorrow. i have been on this planet a long time. ted, i saw that smirk on your face and it's probably in my opinion, the world is probably most dangerous it has ever been since i have been solved in those things, i've been in combat, been in war and now you strive to go forward and make the wormtd safe, not only for your country, but for your kids and your grand children. so thank you for having this hearing, i think this is something we cannot fall asleep on and as i said earlier, we got to be ever vigilant and question got this stuff going on. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from new york, mr. higgins for his opening statement. >> the rapid conquest of a territory covering large portions of syria and iraq is in part owed to the prolific recruitment of foreign fighters, which is now in excess of 15,000, part of the sbeg ral part of the strategy must be an effect tiff program to stem the flow of foreign fighter who not only add to the foreign fighters strength, but who also represent a serious threat when they return to their countries of origin. of greatest concern are the roughly 2,000 foreign fighter e originating in foreign countries. until it can be properly addressed, the islamic state's proficient use of social media and other mediums to facilitate the recruitment of radicalization of these individuals. i look forward to today's discussion with our witnesses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois. >> thank you mr. chairman, under both committees under which i szczerbiak. -- serve. we're bombing isis, that's good, i wish we had started that back in january when there was only a few thousand of them. today we're playing a lot of catch up. i just recently got back from iraq, i guess two months ago now, a month and a half. when i left in '09 as a pilot in the military, the war was won and when i wchblt back just a couple of months ago, it was devastating to see. i hope we begin to see from this administration a strategy for syria, i echo what a lot of people have said. 200,000 dead syrians today, many of which are women and children, by the evil dictatorship of bashar al assad, which is no protector of christianity. the reason this rebellion exists, the reason people would even be attracted is isis, some people see him as the best alternative for assad. so i thihopefully we'll begin tr that from to the administration, it's been a few years, but maybe we'll catch some good news here soon and i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from rhode island for his opening statements. >> the mr. chairman, for holding this hearing on this very important issue. addressing that threat with a comprehensive and carefully developed and thoughtful strategy must be a top priority of our foreign policy. all options and their constitutions need to be carefully considered. even as the administration ramps up it's response with a $5.6 billion request from the president to aim rebels in syria, isil continues to attract foreign fighters, krug fighters from western countries, we must do all we can to stop this flow of fighter into the region. and we must exam ming how and why isil is -- access to additional fighting personnel and battleal resources. i look forward to hearing the perspective of the witnesses we have assembled on thisz important issues. >> are there any other members tochb majority side? the chair recognizes the gentle lady from florida, ms. frankle for one minute. >> thank you very much for being here. i have to confess just a little bit of uneasiness of really what we should be doing with isil. but there are two issues that have been floating around in my mind that i'll try to articulate, just based on some things i have read or heard and i would like to get your reaction as you go forward. one to pick up on my colleague who talked about al assad and hundreds of thousands of his own people that he's slaughtered. and causing such a -- many of them, thousands to flee into countries like turkey deza destabilize those countries and some will say that the isil is enemy is the firest fighter gernls assad. so my question is how do you balance going after isil, and are you helping assad, are we helping assad in that regard. and then the second issue that i have read and heard people say is that our actions, whether it's bombing, air strikes or whatever, that we tend to inflame certain folks that will cause them to use our actions as a recruitment for isil. i would like to hear your reaction to that. i yield back, mr. poe. >> anyone else wish to make an opening statement? mr. kennedy, one minute. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you to the chairman and ranking members of this committee for holding this hearing. to our witnesses, thank you for coming here today, thank you for your service to our country. a number of my colleagues have already touched on the issues around trying to limit the number of foreign fighters coming in to syria in the region and obviously that's critical. the other as pekts of this is our ability to monitor their movements after they're there and once they return home. this puts an awful lot of pressure on our intelligence agency's apparatus to try and make sure we can successfully identify those fighters once they try to leave and try to gain entry back into the united states and canada. i would love to hear your assessment of those capabilities, how much confidence we have in our intelligence communities, in order to conduct those operations, if they need additional resources if they need to do so and what road blocks you might see in making sure they are right every time and that's something that doesn't slip through the crackses. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois, mr. snyder more one minute. >> i would like to thank the witnesses for joining us today and sharing what ask being done and a very serious concern. it seems that there are three challenges we face, one is cutting off the source of these fighters, i would be interested in hearing your take as was mentioned earlier, why so many are coming from five county are tries, five countries represent half the total, morocco, tunisia, turkey, jordan and saudi arabia, what's being done to predict their progress towards syria and iraq, how do we prevent them from going and how do we make sure that they're not allowed to come back. an i yield back my time. >> anyone else? >> i'll introduce our witnesses and give them time for their opening statements. the honorable robert bradke serves as advisor for skierian born -- -- previously served as our ambassador to croatiana. prior to joining dhs, he spent several years in private practice before a decades long tenure where he focused on the middle east. ambassador bradke, we'll start with you, you u have five minutes. >> chairman poe, distinguished members of the subcommittees. few for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of the state department of this hearing on isis and the threat from foreign fighters. i would ask that the full text of my statement be included in the record and i'll proceed with a summary of my statement. mr. chairman, the state department along with other agencies, the united states government is deeply concerned about the threat posed by foreign fighters, who have travelled to syria and iraq to participate in the conflicts there. these fighters, many only whom have joined isil, al nu skrsra other terrorist organizations are a serious threat to our allies and a serious threat to the united states. these fighters may try to trourn their home countries or other countries and carry out attacks, in response to this, the united states has been working closely with our syrian partners for over two years. the united states has intensified it's response by building a coalition of more than 60 countries with the-goal of degrading and defeating isil. john allen is leeding a comprehensive strategy including military support to our partners, dits disrupting the flow of foreign parters, stopping isil's funding, exposing isis' true nature. today i would like to describe to you how we're fighting the foreign fighter in isil. not only with the -- broader frame work of the threat posed by other terrorist organizations and groups such as al nusra and the khorasan group, critical to countering this threat is our engagement with our foreign partn partners. the state department has been leading a government outreach effort with our foreign partn partners, an effort that's being carried out in all of our branchs of government. the department of homeland security, the department of justice u the department of the treasury, the federal bureau of investigation, our military commands as well as our embassies overseas. many my capacity as senior advisor for foreign engagement, i have let interagency delegation vision sits to 17 countries to address this issue with our partners. we and our partners reck nooirz that we must use all the tools at our disposal and correspondent across a wide range of activities. let me outline for you very briefly, seven areas where we are engaging with our foreign partners. first is information sharing, to prevent and interdict the travel of foreign fighters, we are working bilaterally to bolster -- we have called upon our partners to make increased use of multilateral arrangements for sharing information, specifically interpol's sforn fighter fusion cell. second is law enforcement cooperation. we're using formal and informal mechanisms to help foreign authorities to bring suspected terrorists to trial. third, is capacity building. we have worked closely with a number of partner countries, including tunisia to help them strengthen their infrastructure to tackle the foreign fighter threat, including stronger counter terrorism legislation and improved interagency coordination. fourth is stopping the flow of external financing to terrorist organizations. together with the treasury department, we have aggressively raised with our partners, cases where we believe individuals or organizations are raising funds that are used to support isil or other terrorist groups. in recent months, as isil has gained control of more territories, we're also engaging with our partners in the region to cut off isis from the sale of oil. we have sought to expose the true nature of isil and other terrorist groups through the work on social media. sixth is countering violent extremism. in my meetings with foreign part mes, i have found that all of us are looking for ways to keep individuals from being radicalized. we are sharing our enexperience in countering violent extremism programs that are being carried out in the united states and are working with partners to engage their own communities. seventh and lastly is border and aviation security. my colleague from the department of homeland security will go into this area in greater detail. parallel with this bilateral engagement, we have joined with our partners in multilateral forum. approved united nations security council resolution 2178, a binding resolution that calls upon all countries among other things to prevent and suppress the recruiting, organizing, transporting or equipping foreign fighters. also in september, at a meeting chaired by secretary kerry and the turkish foreign minister, the global counter terrorism forum adopted the first ever set of international good practices for a more effective response to the terrorist fighter phenomenon. the foreign terrorist fighters working group, shared with the netherlands in morocco will take place in marakesh december 15 and 16. mr. chairman, madam chairman, in his speech at west point, president obama stated we must shift our counter terrorism policy to and i quote more effectively partner with countries where terrorist networks seek a foothold, end quote, as i hope i have indicated in this statement, we are engaging with our partners, using all the tools at our does posal in order to deal with the threat posed by those fighters. i stand ready to address some of the issues the members raiseded during their statements and answer your questions, thank you. >> the chair recognizes you for your five-minute opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman, madam chairman and ranking member sherman and members of the subcommittees. thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the efforts by department of homeland security to protect our nation from terrorists operating out of syria and iraq. i'm going to address how dhs helps protect the homeland from foreign fighters who are not from syria or iraq but who travel there to participate in the conflict and then may seek to attack the united states. u.s. persons, u.s. interests or u.s. allies. let me talk about the islamic state of iraq. i'm not going to do a full press briefing on isil, that would be in a classified setting. any credible threat to the u.s. home land from isil, however as has been noted, isil has encouraged it's supporters to carry out attacks and such attacks could be subjected without specific direction from isil with little or no warning. in addition terrorist group skrs shown interest in attacks on u.s.-bound airplanes. terrorists have tried to conceal impro viszed exploeive devices and commercial electronics in years of the body they don't think will be thoroughly searched and in shoes, cosmetics or liquids in order to try to diffuse airplane screening. first aviation security. in early july, secretary johnson directed the transportation security administration to enhance screening at a number of oversees airports with direct flights to the united states. tsa increased the number of additional airports to use enhanced screening methods. dhs will work with air carriers in foreign airports to adjust screening measures to take into account changing to the threat. second preclearance. one of secretary johnson's initiate tys is to -- preclearance means that a plane takes off, all passengers and their baggage are inspected by u.s. customs and border protections officers, using their full legal authorities and using enhanced aviation security approved by tsa. we have had preclearance in canada and the caribbean and we have recently expanded it to air land and the united arab emretsz. third, tracking foreign fighters. dhs along with the fbi, the national counter terrorism center, and the u.s. intelligence community is making greater efforts to track foreign fighter who is fought in syria who come from the united states or who seek to enter the united states from another country. fourth, we're encouraging other governments to collect their own information on foreign fighters. this topic is almost always item number one on dh s's agenda with european governments. we are helped by u.n. security council resolution 2178 which has provided a new push for european and other governments to use technology like advance ed -- fifth, enhancing the elect frontic -- and the visa waiver program, vwp. dhs is increasing our ability to even -- travel to the united states without a state department issued visa under the skrees a waver program. on no 3, dhs began requiring additional data elements that will allow tcp to allow better security screening of vwp travel eve ers. the additional data provides an additional layer of security. sixth, dhs is continually working to help communities identify homegrown violent extremists. secretary johnson regularly speaks of the challenge posed by the independent actor or lone wolf. in many respects, this is the hardest terrorist threat to detect and one of concern to dhs. we help detect hves through outreach and community engagement. secretary johnson personally participates in community meetings in chicago, columbus, minneapolis and los angeles that focuses on community concerns and building trust and partnership to counter violent extremism. second information sharing within the u.s. government. reaching dhs personnel in the field, as well as our state, local tribal and territorial partners. the fbi releases joint intelligence bulletins to provide context and backgrounds for them to use. the interagency partners work continually to share information with each other about possible foreign fighters. mr. chairman, madam chairman, since 9/11, our partners in the law enforcement and intelligence community have vastly improved the nation's ability to detect and disrupt terrorist plots, we ask for your support as we continue to adapt to emerging threats and to improve our ability to keep our nation safe. thank you very much. we obviously are happy to answer your questions. >> thanning both of you, i'll recognize myself for five minutes for some questions. the united states is conducting air strikes, how have u.s. air strikes affected the flow of foreign fighters into syria? if it has. >> with my sense looking at the numbers is that it's hard to say at this point that what the impact is, it is relatively soon after these strikes have taken place, the numbers that we monitor, the numbers that we track, are estimates at best, and again i think it's probably early to determine precisely what the impact is, it's obviously precisely what the impact is. it's obviously something, again, that our intelligence community is looking at, and it's possible that in a classified briefing they might be able to give you their assessment. again, from my perspective, the numbers, again, can vary for a variety of reasons. sometimes it's because we get better information from our partners. and that results in an increase in the estimate. >> so we don't know if it's effective or not? >> i would say that if the issue is effective in reducing the flow of foreign fighters i would say at this point i would want to see more evidence before i come to a conclusion. >> mr. warrick do you have a different answer? >> no. there is an answer to that question but i think it needs to be delivered in a classified setting. >> turkey seems to me, appears to be to be a complicit, to some extent of allowing foreign fighters to flow through turkey into syria. would you weigh in on your opinion of what the government of turkey, their position is on foreign fighters going through turkey into syria? ambassador, you be first. >> mr. chairman, turkey is a very important partner of ours in the region. we share a very important common interest with them. we have a shared interest in seeing a political settlement in syria, that removes assad. we have a shared interest in combatting the terrorist organizations that are operating in syria and iraq. we have a shared interest in dealing with the humanitarian crisis and also shared interest in promoting stability in iraq. >> i understand that. that's not my question. my question is the government of turkey complicit in allowing foreign fighters to go through their country and fight for isil? >> i was trying to explain some of the perspective on this problem, sir. the turks have more than a million refugees inside turkey. turks have a 900 kilometer border. >> i've bento one of those syrian camps. >> there's 37 million tourist rifle in turkey every year. we believe turkey and we've had an extensive dialogue on this issue for some time is taking steps trying to deal with the flow of foreign fighters. turks have added a considerable number of names to their denied entry list. turks are working with us in funding that might come from oil sales to the foreign terrorist organizations. >> isn't turkey buying oil from isil and coming to turkey from isil. >> there's considerable traffic we have discussed with the turks across the border. again the latest information the turks are taking steps -- >> are they buying oil from isis. >> if turkey is buying oil from isil no. are they smuggling across the border, yes. we're trying to cut off working with the turks. the other thing i would mention is sharing of information with turkey. we're seeing much better information sharing with turkey with the united states and also with our european partners. >> they are not complicit. that's my question. >> my answer is they are not complicit. >> social media, we know, obvious recruitment is being done in a very effective manner, appears through social media. there's the argument by some in our law enforcement agency not to shut down social media because that's how they track and keep up with terrorist organizations and individuals. what is your opinion on that? doing more or less or leaving it alone, tissue of all of social media, how it's effective in tracking and recruiting of terrorists to join isil, should we be proactive to shut that network down legally, of course, or do as law enforcement says we want to watch this to see where these guys are going. what's your opinion on that, ambassador and then i'll get mr. warrick and then that will be it. >> the issue of freedom of the internet, freedom of expression on the internet goes well beyond my responsibilities. we clearly watch very closely the use of the internet by these organizations. we have a dialogue with the service providers. in cases where the posts that are being used, used on social media accounts is perhaps, in our view contrary to the terms of service. so, again, this is a complex question, it's a complicated question, goes well beyond my responsibilities. certainly any use of the internet for illegal activities such as fundraising or incitement to violence is something we would take strong legal action against. but there are gray areas here of the use of massacre net and social media, and the question is how one responds to that. i think we also believe that if you shut down one site you shut down one account, the chances of that popping back up somewhere else are quite high and quite great. so the other tool we use is counter messaging ourselves through the center for strategic counterterrorism communications that was mentioned earlier, we try to put out counter messaging on social immediate area on the internet to push back in that way rather than simply try to take down the message they are putting out. >> mr. warrick, i'll let you put that in writing since we're out of time. i have to recognize the ranking member, mr. sherman for his five minutes. >> thank you. first let me clarify a statement in made towards the end of my opening statement. the state department has thousands of experts in american law. you don't particularly need more. we also have experts in international law. those experts help us persuade western countries of the righteousness of our positions. i have been pushing on the state department for, i think the better part of a year, to hire an expert in islamic law. and the response i get is, well we hope islamic jurists will issue statements that are helpful to us and we'll just call them and ask them to come up with something on their own, or now and then he'll call-up a professor of islamic law, we don't need to hire anybody. i analogize that if you were trying to get an american jurist. would you say my cause is just please come up with the legal theories that support me. would you rely on hiring advice from any professor you can get on a phone or hire somebody who is an expert in american law to get an american jurist to issue a statement helpful to you? it is incredibly important that we get islamic scholars, experts and jurists to issue rulings adverse toy isis and favorable to the united states. it is about time that the state department hire its first islamic legal expert to work full time on that. maybe a couple. and it's time that at least somebody be hired at the state department not because they went to a fancy american school, or because they did well on the foreign service exam. mr. ambassador, security council resolution 2178 requires u.n. members to criminalize those who go to syria and iraq to fight with the extremists. have european allies particularly visa waiver countries complied with that? >> if i may just comment briefly on your first point on islamic lawyers, islamic scholars. >> can i ask the ambassador to move the mic closer to him. >> i have limited time so i'll ask you to address my question first. about resolution 2178 from the security council. >> we having worked with our partners in our sbaes in europe and elsewhere to engage with these countries on implementing 2178. >> can you provide for the record a list of which visa waiver countries are in compliance, which have promised to become in compliance and which are not in compliance that have no very serious promise to us? >> we've had two months since the resolution was passed. >> i'm just asking for a chart. >> i would be happy to provide a list of countries. >> their legislative process may be slow but i know your staff will be fast and get a chart for our record and we'll identify those countries. likewise if you can provide a chart of islamic, particularly arab states, five the gentleman from illinois identified as the majorer senders of foreign fighters whether they have passed laws that would criminalize going to syria or iraq and fighting with al nustra or isis. >> i would be happy to do that. >> i take it from your answer we're doing everything we can to push our friends in the arab world and europe -- >> there are countries that have already in place as we do laws that prohibit criminalized -- >> are there any countries that have said no we'll just let these folks come back and monitor them. >> no country has taken such a cavalier attitude. there are countries that do believe that some of the fighters who come back have been disillusioned by their participation. have not paid in terrorist activities while in syria. they believe those fighters should be monitored rather than incarcerated. those are decisions those countries make. >> is that in compliance with u.n. security council resolution 2178, that view? >> i'm not a lawyer myself. i have to take a look at that issue. there are different approaches how you deal with returning fighters particularly ones who have not carried out any evidence -- >> look i don't care if you're peeling potatoes in the mess, if you're part of the isis army you belong in prison until this war against islamic extremism is over. that's what security council resolution 2178 says. i hope your chart, you'll add to your chart a list of those countries that have told us that we do not think we should criminalize those of our citizens and residents who went to isis, joined the army but say they didn't actually kill anybody. >> also an issue, sir, of being able to prove in a court of law this kind of activity. >> that's fine. >> people on the ground in syria to come to a courtroom to testify. so, again, i think our partners use different tools depending on what they know about a particular individual in the case. that's all i could say. >> chair recognizes the gentlelady from florida. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman. isil's reach into the united states has been documented. we also know that isil is known to be tech savvy, as we've discussed, used social media tools to its advantage to help recruit foreign fighters to its cause and we've seen isil graffiti here in d.c. mr. warrick, you testified that dhs is quote, unaware of any specific credible threat to the u.s. homeland from isil, end quote and following up on what mr. wilson said in his opening statement, on sunday dhs and fbi issued a joint bulletin urging our service members to scrub their social media accounts, to use caution with their posts. is there a specific threat to our service men and women most of whom who are stagttioned her in america. isil is known to fund its operations from a variety of sources including illicit oil station, extortion, organized crime, donations from outside sources. we've seen terrorist groups like hezbollah fund their terror activities through the sale of drugs, often from sources in the western hemisphere. what are we doing to target isil's funding? what kind of isil collaboration with drug cartels is there any evidence of that, especially here in our hemisphere and if so what are we doing fight this? and lastly on our allies, in order to defeat isil, we're going to need full cooperation with our coalition partners especially those from the middle east. the ministers of the gcc the gulf cooperation council has scheduled multiple meetings to discuss the ongoing threat of isil and possible ways to fight this terrorist entity and just yesterday, bahrain foreign ministers announced the gulf states are setting up a joint military command based in saudi arabia to not only counter the isil threat but the threat from iran as well. so i'll ask in what ways are we work with the gulf nations toing fight this radical islam ideology and is this joint command a signal that they my be willing to put boots on the ground in syria? >> thank you very much, madam chairman. let me start on that and then obviously ambassador bradtke will have something to say. on the isil funding issue that question actually probably would be best addressed to the treasury department under secretary cohen and assistant secretary glazer are working very intensively in trying to address the isil funding issue. dhs play as maul role in that in terms of criminal investigations. >> is there a specific threat -- >> i'm working backwards. on that one -- let me go back to what we said over the weekend. there were statements, public statements by isil in september to the effect of calls for attacks against u.s. service members, u.s. officials and members of the intelligence community. we are not aware of any specific threat saying that at a particular time there would be an attack on a particular service member, but we really do want to be able to have members of the state and local law enforcement and members of the military community and their families take certain reasonable precautions to further reduce the risk of any types of events taking place. we're very mindful of the techniques of the use of social media that you allege -- that you described and that isil is able to use and obviously they are able to survey social media as well -- >> thank you. ambassador, on the issue of our allies, are they fighting back this radical islam ideology and do you have any info about whether they are willing to put boots on the ground in syria? >> well, we have a very close partnership with the countries in the gulf. they are members of this coalition that i mentioned of 60 countries. general allen has worked to put together. a number of them have carried out air strikes in iraq. we're getting that kind of assistance from them. we're working closely with them to cut off funding. i was in kuwait and qatar over the summer. qatar has just pass ad new law on private charities which will be more effective in regulating the flow of funding in cases where individuals contribute money thinking it's going a humanitarian cause and ended up to a terrorist organization. they are taking steps in that regard. they are working with us on the counter messaging front. there was a conference of kuwait that undersecretary went to. we talked about what we're doing on counter messaging. we're working through the center of strategic counterterrorism communications. a number of our partners in the gulf are interested in setting up similar operations perhaps or having a regionally based counter messaging brace. we have a close partnership. >> thank you my time is up. is the graffiti we've seen in d.c. and other cities are those legitimate or do you think that they are not? >> that would be a question that i think would be better addressed either by fbi or domestic law enforcement. they could help you with that. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from florida mr. deutsch for five minutes. >> thank you. ambassador bradtke could you pick up where you left off on the message of counter messaging. can you speak in little more detail about the efforts that we're under taking, our friends from around the world sharing those efforts with us and how do we determine whether we're being successful and is there any evidence at this point that we are? >> let me same someone who has worked for a long time in the state department, united states government i find the center for strategic counterterrorism communications a very interesting and really unique operation. it is an effort to push back in a very direct, very blunt forthright way, putting out some very tough messages on the internext inte intern internet, on social media. the kinds of things that are used putting on social media the atrocities that al qaeda and isil are carrying out so people can see the true nature of isil. they highlight fact that the main victims of isil are muslims, so that people understand that this is not a way of helping other muslims, that, in fact, these organizations are killing other muslims. they talk about what isil and other groups are doing to local populations, the sunni tribes, others. so, again, very powerful, very direct messages. some of the numbers in the last period of time perhaps the last ten or 12 months they have done 25 videos. they've put out more than a 1,000 anti-isil posters or tweets. way we have some sense this is having an impact -- there's two ways. one you get a number of hits on the sites, the number of followers to the cscc's operations. the other way is the efforts by isil and these groups to take down the cscc's sites through hacking. so they are obviously worried that our message is getting out. they are obviously worried that enough, they actually want to take action to do something about it. other countries have been very interested in what we're doing. we've had a number of countries ranging from belgium and france to some of our north african partners that have come to visit the cscc's operations here in washington. we this conference in kuwait where our partners in the gulf and other places are looking at whether they can do something similar. the european union is interested in trying to get its own counter messaging up and running. the eu is providing funding for the uk which has a counter messaging program to try to explain and share its experience with other eu member states. so, again, this whole area of counter messaging is very active, and my own sense is while we can't know for sure whether some individual has seen something on our website and has said that's the true nature of isil and i won't go to syria, but the fact that we get hits on the site, the fact that the site has been subject of hacking by these groups indicates to me that there's some effectiveness. >> can you share how many times videos have been viewed, how many hits there have been either on the posts, how many tweets have been viewed? >> i would be happy to get that for the record. >> okay. and is there -- you said that the uk has a center. the work that we're doing meant strictly -- who are we to discussion on? clearly i imagine the message would be slightly different, targeting an australian audience than a belgium audience or america. >> that's why we think it's important other countries develop a capability. the cscc is doing this in its efforts in three languages. arabic, of course. erdu because of its messaging that goes beyond the syrian/iraq front. english as well. fwlish is a most recent development. as you say there's a need for other, for example, french we know the fighters from belgium, france and that's why we think it's important that other countries also develop this capability. >> in my remaining seconds, mr. warrick, this may be something you may be able to respond to in your discussions with some of my colleagues, if not if you could respond in writing after, your testimony about the efforts by the secretary to increase the pre-clearance at overseas airports, i would very much like to know what the plan is, what airports we've targeted by when and how many we've already put in place today. >> thank you very much. actually that's a question we would prefer not to address in an open session. you'll appreciate the sensitivity not just in terms of discussions with foreign partners but we have no intention ever laying out a road map of where we are not because of what, effect that might have on the thinking of our adversaries. in a closed setting we can get someone who has a great deal more information on that. >> i was only following up on countries identified in your testimony. >> it's a public matter and people see our officers in their uniforms. >> okay. thank you. i yield back. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from south carolina mr. wilson. >> thank you. thank you for this joint subcommittee hearing today. this is very important. both of your testimony has been very enlightening. i'm very concerned. the american people need to know as the president i believe is ignoring the jihadist threat that abc news of all people monday night reported the day before the u.s. launched its biggest air blitz against the terrorist group in iraq and syria in late september, isis spokesman called upon muslims in the u.s. and europe to attack members of the military. the direct quote, do not ask for anyone's advice and do not seek anyone's verdict. kill the believer. whether he is a civilian or military for they have the same ruling. both of them are disbelievers. both of them are considered to be waging war. end of quote. he said in an audio speech posted online on september 21st. mr. warrick, what is your current threat assessment of an attack by domestic jihadists or foreign fighters on the u.s. homeland? >> thank you very much. that statement was posted in social media by a foreign -- by a foreign participant attributing it to him. he was not in the homeland when the statement was made but intending that his message reach out to prospective sympathizers here in the united states. there are obviously a number of things that dhs tries to do to prevent people from becoming radicalized to violence. this is through the community efforts which i addressed in my testimony. in addition there are sorry steps that other law enforcement organizations like the fbi do in terms of trying to track activity and where there are steps especially towards foreign travel that prospective sympathizers make and gets on the radar screen of people at dhs. there are a number of measures to address people who might be sympathetic to that kind of radicalizing messaging snoom the grotesque nature of that statement along with people carrying signs in english in say teheran, death to israel, death to america, the creed of hamas, the american people need to know and that is that we very well death more than you value life. this is serious. and i'm just very concerned that the president is focused on other items, i.e. congressional campaigns and has been missing the danger. based on the bulletin that was issued by dhs and fbi regarding soldiers online media accounts, what level of danger do you feel for our military and our military families? >> as i said there's no specific credible threat targeting specific people in a specific place but we think it's appropriate that people are prudent. and that social media postings should not describe military operational activities, nor should they describe law enforcement activities or other measures. this is something that we just caution people in our own organization and indeed in our military to be prudent in what they post on social media. but for people who take those reasonable steps, it's obviously very difficult for foreign fighters in syria to get to the united states and my department is working to make it even harder for that to happen. so, what we really do is encourage people to exercise reasonable prudence and then, obviously, there's the support that we need from communities to help be on the alert for things that they may notice on a local level before we in the federal government would ever see anything. >> with this warning by the fbi and department of homeland security, are you aware of any steps that the department of defense has taken to alert again service members, military families, veterans to what threats may be? >> the department of defense we know has guidance on that but, obviously, i leave to it them to describe their guidance to service members about social media postings. we just felt it was prudent for us to remind people that this is a time in which they should be prudent in measures about any activities or postings they may have. but the department of defense has a number of procedures and rulings that are in place and, obviously, can you get that information from them. >> thank you very much. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from virginia, mr. connolly for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ambassador bradtke, i was looking at your long and distinguished record of service to your country in the state department. but allow me without being disrespectful to mr. sherman's question, do you speak arabic? i'm sorry i can't hear without the microphone. >> do you have any expertise in the arab world. >> i've traveled with secretary christopher extensively -- >> you were never assigned to the region. >> no. >> so, is it not true that most of the foreign fighters recruited by or attracted to isil in syria come roughly from a handful of countries mostly arab countries, is that not true? >> many of the foreign fighters come from north africa, from arab countries that's correct. >> maybe you do or don't subscribe toy think the premise behind mr. sherman's questions but as the united states moves forward it stems me that the state department needs be promoting leadership from within that has particular focus on this region since that's what we're dealing with. and i mean that without, with no disrespect because sometimes somebody can function very well without any expertise in a particular subject matter because their organizational skills, presumably, that's true about you. but i do think, mr. sherman has a point that longer term the united states has got to get serious about this region and expertise in this region if we're going to address the challenges we face. let me ask a question. in looking at your seven point here's what we're doing i didn't see a mention of strengthening our relationship with the kurdish community which seems to be one of the military allies we got in the region and has a military capacity but needs be reinforced. why not? why didn't you talk about that. >> if you will permit me, mr. connolly, i do want to say a word or two -- >> i have to ask you to move closer to the mic. it's very hard to hear you. >> i would like to say a word or two about your initial comments. i was happily retired, mr. connolly. >> i saw that. >> was asked by senior officials by the state department to come back and take this job. i was asked to take this job not because of my expertise in arabic or countries in the middle east. i was asked to take this job because there was a belief that in 40 years of working for the state department i was able to deal with a wide variety of countries, that i could conduct dialogues with those countries on an effective basis and that i could draw on the many experts in the state department who are experts on those part of the world. this is not an effort i under take by myself. i have support of many people within the department of state. i have found as i've traveled that i don't think the fact that i don't speak arabic has been a hindrance. i've had meetings with leaders of islamic communities and fact i'm not an expert on islam has not prevented for example when i met the leader of the islamic community, i had a good discussion with him about steps they could take to put out the word about isil, about isil's not being a representative of islamic values. i don't feel the discussion i had with him was in any way hindered. >> i honor your career and i know you came back but i think mr. sherman has a point long term. this region is unraveling. it is a long term challenge, if not threat to us and to the west. it is profoundly disturbing what's happening and we have to have expertise in the region. that's not a comment about you. >> there's no disagreement. there's really brilliant new generation diplomats who are coming up through the ranks. >> i repeat i honor you for your service. i meant norespect at all. i was trying to reinforce his point. now i beg you to address the kurdish question because we're running out of time. >> the reason i didn't get more deeply into that is that it's not in my area of partner engagement. one of the lines of effort that general allen is pursuing. >> i would hope we have another round we can get into sort of what has worked because i am troubled sometimes by some of the conversation we're having when they return to a given country what do we do? it almost sounds like deprogramming from a cult and i don't think that's going to work given the numbers. and so i would be interested in hearing from both of our witnesses about are there examples of things that have worked in a preventing people from going and unfortunately if we fail on that, helping to reintegrate them in a genuine successful way when and if they come back. thank you, mr. chairman. i know my time super. >> chair recognizes is gentleman from california, colonel cook. >> thank you, mr. chair. ambassador, i wanted to ask you about the role of hamas and the muslim brotherhood in terms of perhaps facilitating the information on people recruitment and some of the smuggling activities, if you had any insight at all from a diplomatic standpoint. >> specifically i do not, sir, no. >> no personal feelings on that in terms of enabling them? >> i don't have any basis on which to give you a good answer, sir. >> okay. let me switch gears a little bit. and the chairman was talking about the relationship with turkey. and a number of us on this committee and house armed services committee are very, very nervous about turkey and its reluctance to have strike aircraft be flown from the base and another base we have in qatar and it's almost like we're giving them a free pass, those two countries there that we're very, very nervous about their maybe activities in supporting isis and some of the other -- do you have any comments at all about the turkish situation in terms of being somewhat of a squishy ally in my opinion a member of nato and everything else and yet i just don't trust them. >> as i said earlier i think turkey is a very important part mother ours. >> are we giving them a free pass on this? >> we just had vice president biden in turkey, general allen visited we had an ongoing discussion with turkey what we can do on the border between turkey and syria. those discussions are going on. at this point that's all i can say. >> i understand that. every time the question comes up of smuggling and black market activities and who is buying the oil and everything, couple of countries come up and it's like they get a free pass. and sooner or later we're -- is there anybody that's re-evaluating who are our true allies and who aren't and it's almost like it's the military stockholm syndrome because we have two bases in those countries and we don't pressure them. that's basically what i'm asking. are they getting a bit of a free pass on this? >> i would not say they are getting a free pass. >> okay. >> let me switch gears. >> we've had a long and open dialogue with them and those discussions about what you were talking about, those discussions continue and we'll have to see where that goes. >> okay. we talked about a lot of these foreign fighters coming through turkey. how about through some of the other areas, turkey is one area. do they also come through -- i notice there's a large preponderance of the group from jordan. is it from these refugee camps where they are being recruited? >> the numbers of foreign fighters coming from other countries are much smaller than turkey. turkey is the primary transit point. iraq, jordan, lebanon have lesser numbers. and we, obviously, in the case of iraq and jordan their efforts to curb the flow of foreign fighters. lebanon as well although that's somewhat more difficult situation. it goes beyond what i could talk about in this session as well. >> all right. the last question i had was in in regards to those coming from russia and i suspect this relates to chechnya. is russia facilitating their leaving the country and going to another area simply because of the problems that they are going to cause internally in russia? >> i'm not aware of any evidence they are facilitating the chechnya fighters to leave russia. >> thank you. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from new york, mr. higgins. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think we need to forget for a moment where these foreign fighters are coming and ask the fundamental question that we're not asking which is why are they coming. isis their most potent recruitment tool is momentum, success. conquest of territory covering large portion of syria and iraq. isis' ability to sustain their momentum in their territorial conquest will determine their future recruitment from the region and from the west. why is isis been so effective in their territorial taking strategy? because there's been no effective counter veiling force to confront them. you know, the united states spent $26 billion building up an iraqi army and the first test was the iraqi army ran. not only did we not put up a front to isis but also they took our weaponry that we paid for over many, many years. so the "new york times" reported this morning that there was a major deal between the abadi government in baghdad and the kurdish leadership in erbil and that was a permanent, long term deal to provide 17% of the national budget to the kurdish region. in addition, a billion dollars to pay important the salaries and weapons for the pashmerga. it's estimated to be between 250 and 357 fighters. they are experienced. they are proven allies of the united states. they helped capture saddam hussein. isis is estimated to be between 31,000 and 41,000 fighters. this seems to be a major change in the dynamic as it relates to iraq's ability to push back isis. i don't know if you caught the news of this deal this morning, but i would like you to comment on it because i think unless and until you can break the momentum of isis, doesn't matter wherefore rent fighters are coming from. the fact that they are come cigarette most important and the success, the momentum that has been sustained by isis over a long period of time is the only reason, is the only reason you have foreign fighters coming to iraq and to syria to fight regardless of where they are coming from. so i think this is a major break through and i would like to hear your comments on how this changes the dynamic in the region. >> that question would take me well beyond my responsibilities, mr. higgins, and i think it's better addressed to my colleagues in our near eastern bureau who are the experts in this area. i gather there will be a subsequent hearing where they will testify. again i'm not an expert on the kurds or the iraq situation. i want to come back to the point you make clearly the perceived success of isis is why some people have been attracted to fight for them. the situation in syria itself has been a powerful magnet -- >> what does isis depict on social media? their success in taking over critical territory. so, if you forget about the median, if you take away the fundamental, you know, recruitment, the emphasis, the success of isis, they don't really have a story to tell because a lot of this is about the narrative. i interrupted you. continue. >> i was agreeing with you that that's one very important element and why people are attracted to fight for isis but there are other factors as well. there is the situation in syria itself where isis al nustra have made powerful use of the idea that they are defending sunnis inside syria. again, that's something we try to push back against. there are other factors ranging from the idea in some cases of economics. i've been in countries where, where the fighters from those countries, the primary motivation is actually the idea that they can escape situations. >> let me claim back my time and respectfully ambassador, because it's a very important point that's being missed and that is combatting, confronting effectively isis and iraq helps us and the free syrian army contorontos isis in syria. >> i don't think there's any disagreement on that point, sir. >> i yield back. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from florida, mr. santos for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ambassador, has the state department cancelled the passports of any u.s. citizens who have joined terrorist groups in syria and iraq? >> to my knowledge the state department has not cancelled any passports. >> why is that? we had secretary kerry here a couple of months ago he said he has authority under existing law, i think he's right about that, some of our allies have taken steps to cancel passports. what's the reasoning behind not doing that. i ask that the director of fbi was on "60 minutes" several weeks ago, maybe a couple of months ago by now and he was asked about people we identified as joining isis or joining the al nustra front and could they come back to the united states. he said if they have a valid passport they are entitled to return. a lot of my constituents were floored by that. they say you go and choose jihad, leave america behind, waging jihad over there, you now have an entitlement to come back simply because you have a valid passport and we won't do much i guess they said they would track them. that struck me and a lot of my constituents insufficient. how do you handle this. >> secretary kerry said he does have the authority to revoke passports and this is something we would only do in relatively rare and unique circumstances because of the importance for average americans of the freedom to travel. we would only do -- >> obviously isis fighter would be an extreme circumstance if they are cutting off americans heads. >> we would only do i want also in consultation with law enforcement authorities. and we have not yet had any request from law enforcement authorities to cancel passports of isis or foreign fighters. so, again, we have the authority. it is one tool. we do have other tools to use as well in this regard. we only do it in consultation. >> mr. warrick, so if a known terrorist comes back to the united states they are quote being tracked by law enforcement what does that entail and how can we be sure that they will not commit a lone wolf attack, for example? >> congressman, we have indications someone on the no-fly is listed trying to fly back to the united states, we would deny them boarding if we have the authority to do so or recommend even to a foreign government that they or the airline deny such a person a right to get on an airplane to fly to the united states. if somebody shows up at the united states, and there's indications that that person has been a foreign fighter in syria it would be referred to the fbi. and then it's a matter for law enforcement. we would have the ability at the boarder to ask any questions that were necessary and appropriate. we would have the ability and the authority to inspect their luggage, inspect their personal possession in order to determine whether they were or were not a foreign fighter fighting with isil in syria. anything like this is taken extremely seriously, i can assure you. the notion we'll let somebody in the united states who is a foreign fighter just to have them monitored, sir, that's not what we're working on. >> i think his comment, maybe he didn't express himself well. how would -- what happened with the florida u.s. citizen who went over, trained with al nustra front in syria and then test test ack in syria. he didn't have any intelligence on him, is that how he was able to do that go over and train with al nustra and come back here. >> the tens he had been fighting with isil was only developed after he had departed. and certainly obviously, you know, it's unfortunate he chose the path that he did. had he come back into the united states there would have been measures taken in his specific case based on the status that he had at the time we learned that he had joined isil. >> ambassador, my final question is, a couple of weeks ago it was reported in the "wall street journal" that the president wrote a personal letter to the ayatollah in iran, stressing, according to the article that there were some mutual interests between the united states and iran with respect to fighting isis in iraq. and just as somebody who served in iraq and saw, you know, iran and iranian backed terror groups they killed hundreds of u.s. service members so that was something that i flinched at. but let me ask you, do we consider the iranians to be a partner of any sort in terms of fighting isis, even if justin baghdad area or throughout the region? >> i can say from my point of view i don't consider iranians to be partners in the efforts that were under taken. >> thank you. i yield back. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from rhode island. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank to you the witnesses. ambassador, could you talk for a moment about what the impact is of foreign fighters, how they are being used? are they engaged in actual italy military conflict, suicide bombings or being used in propaganda videos. what actually is the impact of foreign fighters and magnitude of the presence of nos fighters relative to the indigenous people. >> some of this is drawn from the work that academic experts are doing, some is from the analysis from inside the u.s. government. the first distinction i would make is that isil has been more willing to take on foreign fighters. al nustra which is the al qaeda affiliate has been somewhat less willing, more selective, more careful about the foreign fighters. you have that distinction. foreign fighters have been used in a variety of ways. this is a little bit different than the foreign fighters in the case of afghanistan and iraq. very typically the primary use was suicide fighters. now there's a perception although some still use suicide bombers. they are more valuable, they have skills they can use whether it's skills using social media, whether it's skills of repair and maintenance of equipment, whether it's medical and other skills i think they are being put to use in those areas as well as being used as fighters themselves and i'm talking here about isil. the other very disturbing thing that we've seen and academics have, peter newman has done some good analysis of foreign fighters, he has concluded that foreign fighters are often used for some of the most distasteful if that's the right word things that isil is doing. if you noticed, for example the beheading, these are apparently being carried out by someone with a british accideent, a uk person. the analysis that peter newman has of this is because foreign fighters come to syria they have no real attachment, they don't speak arabic, they are anxious to impress isil, anxious to impress the organizations and they are willing to do things that the local recruits will not do, so we've seen that which i think is a very disturbing thing about the foreign fighters. >> thank you. i know some prior colleague referenced u.n. resolution 2178. there was not only the creation avenue policy but a set of protocols and framework that was created as a result of that. is that a successful and useful tool? what's the status of that? that imposes an obligation on countries to under take serious efforts to prevents the ability of foreign fight towers transit. what's the currents status of that? >> as i was saying earlier, 2178 is a legally-binding resolution which requires countries to criminalize a variety of activities related to foreign fighters including ones they have not perhaps previously criminalized. i just came back from indonesia where their counterterrorism law criminalized domestic terrorism because they never had a problem of people carrying out terrorist acts outside. now they are looking at that law to deal with terrorists going to training camps outside of indonesia. countries are very much looking at that resolution and trying to see where the gaps in their legislation are. >> i this it would be useful for us to have a sense of where countries are in meeting those obligations. >> identify committed to doing that. >> finally i want to turn to turkey. i know you have said that they are not complicit, though i think it's pretty clear they have not been an enthusiastic wonderful reliable partner in this effort. just last week there were several foreign fighters who traveled through turkey, so are they, in fact, assisting us both in sharing intelligence in counter -- in counterterrorism efforts to stop the flow on foreign fighters. you say they are an important partner. i think you recognize they have value if they act the right way. there are real questions about what they are actually doing on the ground with us. >> again, if you want a detailed analysis of exactly what our cooperation with the turks, probably do that in a classified session. i would say the following, we have seen increase steps by turkey to cut off the flow of oil, to stop the philosophy foreign fighters, to get better control of their border and information sharing we have with the turks has been improved. >> thank you. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois. >> thank you, mr. chair hahn. again thank you for putting this together and to the witnesses thank you for being here. i appreciate it. let me just ask you both if you can just or whoever is better advised to answer this. i'm sure i wasn't here for part of the hearing i'm sure you explained it. explain to me briefly what is our policy in syria. what are we doing there? >> again, i'm not here as the administration spokesman. >> you are kind of the administration guy and i want says you're the partner engagement on syria. >> that's my area of responsibility. how we're working with partners to deal with the foreign fighter problem. it's not to explain our set of policy. >> you've been briefed on our policy on syria otherwise you're in a -- >> our policy and i've give the one sentence answer is to bring about a political settlement which would provide syrian people an opportunity to have a democratic future without assad in power. >> okay. i like the i'll point out that, in fact, during the discussion of the red line, the infamous red line a year ago i was one of the vocal supporters of the need to enforce that red line, and there was a lot of discussion of an off-ramp for assad during that time period. let's give him money and send him somewhere else. let's get him out of government. it was the failure of enforcing that red line. i have not heard a proposal to get assad out of office. toppling him by force is not the best answer. it is what it is right now. so you do
you can be playing in soccer in the morning and by the evening you're dead. so malaria is the word that we use to describe the diseases that are caused by this genius of disease and parasites. >> host: how many types are their? >> guest: there are for that cause human malaria although there is a monkey malaria that is jumping species. it will become the fifth human malaria. it's in the process of doing that now. this is the way these parasites have survived the ages. they affect the dinosaurs and made it through the ice ages probably in birds. there are many varieties of bird malaria. then they went on to infect other species including primates, and the primate species are what evolves to infect a. >> host: how many people a year are infected with malaria? >> guest: that number is a squishy one because it's very hard to measure because so many of the infections go uncounted but the world health organization estimates around 300-500,000 a year and -- i'm sorry, 300-500 million a year and about 1 million die every year and most of those are children in africa. >> host: why hasn't it been eradicated? >> guest: because the parasites that cause the disease are part of the environment. they are carried by mosquitoes. to get rid of -- all malaria's are carried by mosquitoes, so to eradicate malaria you need to either remove people from mosquito populations or kill all of the mosquitoes. both have been very difficult to do. so we've had malaria throughout the united states. malaria was throughout the world up until the 20th century and then when scientists figured out that it was the mosquitoes that carry to come at it wasn't good and bad air malaria comes from an italian word. and back before the turn-of-the-century scientists believe that it rose up from swamps and you breathe it in and she became sick because it always came around the spring summer time when the waters were warming and you could smell the swamps. once we figured out it was caused by mosquitoes, which was in 1898 the focus was on killing mosquitoes. some countries that could come in regions that could afford the anti-mosquito work and put the screens on homes where people were better off than had health care the malaria rates plummeted and elimination of malaria occurred although there were still some outbreaks. but like in the u.s. south, in italy, in southern europe, because mosquitoes live longer and there are more of them, it's much harder to get rid of malaria. those areas tended to be less economically developed than northern europe or northern part of the united states. >> host: karen masterson, where is malaria today? where to can you find malaria? >> guest: you can find malaria just about anywhere where people are poor, where people live in poverty. or where people are fighting wars. because wars develop the perfect ecosystem for mosquitoes because you care apart the landscape and create swamps where mosquitoes breed. because of the parasites because the mosquito can survive any climate, one that hides in your liver will wait until the mosquito season to launch an infection in your blood so that when mosquitoes come to bite you they to bite you they drink in hand and the cycle continues. or in the deep tropics where you tend to find most of the world's intense poverty, malaria is just intimate and it's always there. mosquitoes live with plenty of blood meals from the population and the population ends up just living with malaria you ran. so that's about 40% of the human population live with malaria. >> host: who discovered that it was a mosquito that carry malaria? >> guest: brought across and he won a nobel prize for that. he went on to create the first of looking to be in as the mosquito by greg. his whole focus for england, he was a researcher, a british researcher. is focus was to try to reduce the mosquito population and the colonies of great britain, mostly africa so that the callers could penetrate deeper into these countries the resources because malaria was blocking the way. he was not successful in places like west africa because the mosquito populations there were so huge and they carry of malaria in most areas of africa is called -- it is the most efficient carrier of these parasites. it's also what entomologists call a geriatric mosquito because it lives so long and because a mosquito must bite you twice to transmit malaria. may have to bite you to drink in the parasites, and then those parasites actually reproduce in the stomach of the mosquito and then we could to two weeks later depend on the temperature the exact has left behind in the mosquito gut will burst the offspring of the we'll get in the mosquito saliva and then the mosquito has to bite you again. so skewed as in the north don't really live that long whereas in places like africa they live a long time. and so they can easily carry malaria, survive between the two weeks, the week to two weeks if they need to carry the eggs in their gut and then infect people. >> host: is there in antidote to malaria? >> guest: there are drugs that can clear the parasites from your blood yes. they tend not to work for very long because parasites, they don't clear all the parasites in the parasites that survived into getting sucked up by mosquitoes and have developed resistance to the drugs into the mosquitoes spread those resistant parasites. i was at a conference yesterday where the talk about the spread of resistance to the most recent series of anti-malaria drugs, and these resistant parasites are spreading from cambodia out to other parts of the world. we are seeing the resistant parasites even in africa, which is quite frightening because this is the front-line drug for african countries, and most of the deaths caused by malaria have been in africa. >> host: how effective our nets, sleeping that's especially? >> guest: you know nets are probably the best technology we have against malaria but you need to convince people to use them. and it's hard to convince people living in sweltering heat to put another layer of material between them and what little air they get especially during the summer when it's hot. another problem is that, and this is something that was talked about at the conference yesterday, the mosquitoes, they do what entomologist called refractory behavior. they figure out what's preventing them from getting their blood meal and they change their behavior. so we are seeing in africa where bed nets are being used quite intensely, programs working with villages to make sure that bed nets are used at night especially where there are young children involved. and they are seeing mosquitoes writing earlier in the day before people go to bed. so it's a good technology. in the united states we put up screens. screens protect you for longer than a bed net will protect you as soon as you go into the house. you're cooking dinner and you're doing your nightly chores and you are still protected from a mosquito bite, whereas in africa the bed net, it's there for sleeping and sleeping only. when mosquitoes are change their behaviors they can still get access to you. another problem is that most of the global health programs have focused on saving children's lives and the lives of pregnant women because pregnant women was what's called acquired immunity. overtime if you're infected enough you develop a certain level of immunity to the deadly symptoms of malaria. so that you will survive, it feels like the flu basically. it's horrible, and you still must lie in bed and you can't go in harvest their crops if you need to but you won't die because you have a certain level of immunity against the disease. pregnant women lose that and children don't have to get so most of the global health programs have to focus on saving lives. now they're talking about the need really to get the larger population, because the larger population of people carry the parasites that the mosquitoes pick up and give to pregnant women and children. so they are not able to break the cycle of infection just by focusing on pregnant women and children. so now there is a much larger album and a much bigger effort that they have to make and it will require a lot more money if elimination -- some people use the word in eradication but eradication, when you're talking about a disease that exists in the private, is a tricky word. most of the paperwork and feel of malaria, especially cdc people who work on the ground and understand the disease will use the word elimination, try to reduce the number of infected people and the number of mosquitoes so that you don't reach the threshold of an outbreak. you need to have a certain number of each to reach a threshold that will break an outbreak. if you can get those numbers down malaria will still exist in the environment but it will be endemic and won't be constantly infecting people. >> host: somalia can be passed from person to person? >> guest: -- so malaria -- if i have other nics all over your not going to get it. if i wipe the sweat of my for it and shake your hand and you're not going to get it. it has to come to from you from a mosquito and has to be a mosquito that has had the parasites in its gut long enough for the exact to burst and send what i call may be parasites but i think of them in the lifecycle. that's kind of it's in the saliva, the mosquito bite you and within minutes today, those parasites get to your liver to avoid your immune system and then they stay and they reproduce in the feed on your liver cells. when they mature enough to bust out of your liver and they attack your blood cells and destroy blood cells and tell you become very sick antibody response with a high fever. the high fever is assigned your immune system is taken and has tried to reduce the number of parasites so that you know longer are sick enough with symptoms which is to the parasites in your blood. there they mature again and they become sexually distinct and to swim to the surface cells, the surface blood cells and they emit the chemical to attract a mosquito so that the mosquito, when you have malaria you are more attracted to mosquito. and pick up on the chemical and they bite you in they drink in these what are called adult versions of parasites. they are shape shifters. they are changing the shape and then they get into the mosquito and there they fuse, sexually fuse and they create a genetically unique set of offspring that are stick shape and to get into the saliva and the cycle continues. >> host: karen masterson, how did you get interested in this topic? >> guest: so i was a political reporter and i had covered congress for quite a while and i was interested in doing something else. i wanted to get back to science writing because i didn't an environmental reporter. i covered the environment, and to do that i decided that i wanted to research a scientist, because you can teach science to people if you're a narrative writer, a storyteller. so i was up at the national archives looking for the world war ii records of linus pauling a two-time nobel prize winner and i worked with archivists who helped me through the byzantine process of trying to find records. you go from one -- there's a whole room as large as this one is nothing but finding aids, and so it's one binder after another that leads to another. you are tracking usually the contract of a that the scientist had with the federal government and so during world war two linus pauling had a contract number through caltech, and so i was trying to track that down had an archivist working with me, took three days. i had my call slips together. i knew my column numbers. i put it in and put it into the desk and an hour later i had my box. the box was labeled t. for people with the last name -- p. to open up and there was nothing in there about pauling. i had been there and i've never done. i tried to research. i had this box of records from box of records or more gorgeous i decided to start flipping through them, and they came across a memo that was written to the lead to public health official in the state of massachusetts. it was from a federal researcher who was the head of the national research council and the letter asked if the federal researchers could come in and inspect patience at the boston psychopathic hospital with malaria so that trucks could be used against the infection no less than the worst outcome was a state. the war department was experiencing the rent is casualties because of malaria and the war department needed a drug in the scientific community was pitching in to help and with the also a massachusetts state hospital patients to become a part of this and he said just. so the boston psychopathic hospital was one of about a half a dozen who allowed these researchers to effect their patients with malaria for these drug tests. >> host: this is the "the malaria project." how long did he go on, how many were infected, what were the results? >> guest: so it started, it really started in 1940 before the war, before the united states entered the war because scientists interested in the late would be the biggest problem of the war department. this was before normative. this was before the battle of europe. this was when we were envisioning getting to hitler through his underbelly, through north africa but it took a while her strategists to get there but it would either be a part of it. we knew that it would contain japan. we would be in the south pacific where malaria was everywhere. so a very clever scientist proposed this project. he said look the germans have come up with a project, a process, or try to find a truck for malaria, and we should model that here. they use their drug companies to come up with compounds, and then the federal researchers in fact patients with malaria and then test those drugs on them and we should do that here. but the actual project itself didn't start until the war department would thought they had a problem and that was when the fall of bataan was likely because of malaria. and we were in guadalcanal on the verge of losing that island which was very important strategic island because of malaria. and the war department opened the spigot. the leaders of the departments that were overseeing the health of the soldiers started attending these meetings were all the malaria all a just were and said we need you and we need to expand this program tenfold. we need 400 scientists working on this. all the drug companies and we did all the drug companies we can get involved in this. and so you saw this small project turned into the largest medical effort of the war. it was the number one medical priority of the war to find a cure for malaria. >> host: mental health patients? >> guest: right. so to understand why this was acceptable, you need to understand the history of malaria and syphilis. these are two diseases that worked against one another. so an austrian scientist was a psychiatrist and had surmised that when his patients hospital health patients came down with severe fever but sometimes they would be better off afterwards that their mental health problems would disappear. so he thought of something to do with the fever that could treat their mental health issues. and so he started infecting his patients with all kinds of migrants including tuberculosis. get a german chairman frank in a pile of tuberculosis indicated to his patients to see figure get the fever high enough to cure them of their mental illness. these experiments spiraled out of control, but he thought that malaria might be a good candidate for treating these patients because certain types of malaria you can control with going to the that the pentagon in africa but the kind you picked up in africa -- europe. it is still over asia, south america but it used to be all over your. so if he used vivax molar to reduce a fever and allow the fever to go up high enough and they treat the fever with quinine, 30% of the time you could cure the patient of what's called euro syphilis. it's a syphilis that would infect a brain cells cause brain damage. these favors could kill a syphilis in these patients and they would walk away 100% pure. so this became a standard treatment. he won a nobel prize in 1927 for. this became a standard treatment for late stage syphilis, narrow syphilis. and -- there's only been a couple of decades since we figured out that malaria was caused by these parasites carried by mosquitoes saw this as an opportunity to study the parasites because you couldn't grow them in the petri dish. dish. you could culture than the you can pass them around like you could with tuberculosis and should be migrants with other scientist and you could say the joint have an infected person. so the state hospital iran was called malaria therapy had ample members of p. per infected with malaria. so it was innocent first stage for malaria to come and study malaria, is going to the state hospitals that were running the therapy for these patients and draw the blood instead of the parasites and it didn't take long for the dynamic to flip so that the malaria community was paying for the treatment of syphilis patients in state hospitals so that they could use these patients to study them at also to test drugs on them. and when the war broke this was the state that these two fields were in. psychiatrist warning these cannot to overstepped the bounds, to use only vivax which can be controlled by quinine. quinine is not reliable treatment. and he warned them not to use mosquitoes for the infections because when you invite an infection by way of mosquito you're inviting every stage of the parasite into the body, not just the blood stage, which if i took blood from you and you had malaria and injected it into another patient the patient would just have that blood stage of malaria. and a few isolated the person and didn't let mosquitoes by that person it would never spread. it would never go it's the on the liver stage so it's not going to stay in your body and you will not walk away and have another outbreak of parasites and then pass it on. the field of malaria did not find these restrictions convenient. and so to study malaria you need to have the mosquitoes. you need to use more than just vivax parasites. you need to use all of the parasites that cause the given types of malaria, and when the war broke, germany and the united states develop these projects that used all phases of the parasites in all types of parasites to try to understand how to come up with a treatment. >> host: karen masterson, when you discovered that memo in that box accidentally, did you have any concept that it would grow into trenton? >> guest: you know, i didn't because i was again a reporter and i thought i was writing an article that outpitched to a magazine. i will wonder if i'd found another tuskegee experiment where men, black men in tuskegee, were not treated for their syphilis because they were not told they had. so the researchers could simply observe the life cycle of this disease which was arraigned is because there was a treatment for syphilis at that time. i thought i had something like that, but i spend enough time with researchers and i want a fellowship to go down to cdc and spent some time with researchers are there, especially with one man, bill collins who we been at it long enough to actually done some of that research on state hospital patients. because even after the war, state hospital patients with late stage syphilis were so given malaria as a treatment so malaria all just -- malariologists could study their site and he was one of those people. he made me understand that this was a very nuanced project that there were many considerations that one needed to understand to put what went on during world war ii in the context. and once i spent time with him i realized there was no way i could write this in a magazine length piece, that it had to be a book. i had bookwriting friends who kept telling me you have a book year, you need to write this book. and i kept saying i'm not sure about this, give me some time. i continued my track up to the national archives. i went through 500 box and found bits and pieces of the story, in a variety of different record groups. and once i saw the story, once i had the narrative in my mind i understood that i had a book. and so i found an agent and we got a publisher and i wrote it. >> host: is this written so that the layman can understand? >> guest: it is written for the layman to it is a narrative. i am a storyteller so i know that people like to read about other people. and so i chose three scientists really to focus on. my main scientist who i talk about can't talk about earlier he's a very interesting, he was a very interesting man, a very good man. he grew up a poor farm boy who didn't want to farm, and to to get out of farming he studied biology. he went to indiana university and studied biology and you know, he said repeatedly totally by accident he tripped into malaria which i could identify with because it was totally by accident by me. he ended up getting a fellowship to go down and study the swamps in leesburg, georgia. he worked for the rockefeller foundation project. the only malaria station in the united states. it was run by samuel darling who was one of the leading thinkers on blair. what they were doing down there in south georgia in 1924 was trying to figure out what mosquitoes carry the malay because the malaria burden in the south was so tremendous that no one felt it would be any kind of economic growth in the southern states with malaria. because of this disease. so he went down into the swamps and had to kill a couple of snakes they came at him but he studied the larva, the mosquito larva to see if certain chemicals would kill them. that was his introduction to malaria and he became because of going down as a college student he became one of the countries few malaria experts. so the rockefeller foundation and the u.s. public health service called on him every summer in between his studies, because he decided that from biology is going to go into medical school. so he had many years in university and every summer he would go and work on malaria in the south. and through that became an expert and was one of the leading thinkers and most innovative thinkers on malaria when the world went to war. >> host: what's your job here at johns hopkins? >> i teach. so i teach writing courses i teach writing courses for science students and i have one course that is specifically geared toward public health students. so i asked them the ones in the workshop, and i send them out to the city of baltimore where they have to find stories and have to actually get on the ground and work with communities. a lot of them will look at hiv. a lot of them will look at heroin addiction, because baltimore is the heroin capital of the country. they come up with a public health topic that they want to explore and then have to get on the ground and they have to find a store. then they bring it back to the class and workshop it and to help them. help them develop their ideas into a store with an arc so in the future they want to tell stories about their research and the work that they do they'll have the skills to do it. >> host: have you had malaria? >> guest: no, i did not. when i was sitting next to bill collins down to cdc when i was on the fellowship, we would chop the heads off mosquitoes that have been infected, so the mosquitoes would pickup malaria from the monkey house, so they were cycling their lives of these parasites and they bring mosquitoes to the monkey house where the racist monkeys were infected with malaria and then he would bring them back to wil collins at left put them in incubators for that week to 10 days, sometimes two weeks for the parasites to use, develop exact and exact a burst with these parasites. then we would catch them just after the parasites were in the saliva, put them under a magnifying machine, chop off the heads and i would and ahead to build a new look under a microscope for parasites. while we were doing that one day, an infected mosquito flew off, and i was like bill we have a problem here. there is an infected mosquito in the room. he looked up and he was such a color for, interesting, funny mean. he looked up and he said gosh, i hate to see that and then he went back down on his microscope. i didn't understand this community malaria and i didn't understand the parasites yet because i had really launched into the different species and try to understand what the big differences between them. so i just tried it because i didn't want malaria. i tracked its flight pattern and i tried it and i slapped the life out of. i went home and i said i was in a room with an infected mosquito but i could've contracted malaria, but it was not until five years later when i really started studying the monkey malaria because it's more important to the project that i realized the kind of monkey malaria that we were working with could not jump the species. so he was just kind of having fun with me because i didn't understand that it was not going to infected, that there was a mosquitoes in the lab was not a big deal but i did note that the time. so no i have never had malaria. i traveled with a friend who came down with malaria when i was in africa. we were told when we got to the clinic that we got her there just in time, because she was showing early signs of cerebral malaria which can kill you. the drug that was used to treat her was the one product that came out of this malaria project. it was the wonder drug of the project found which we actually in need of stealing from the germans. >> host: still in use today? >> guest: it is still in use today, yes. most of the drugs used today were created during this project. so when a drug becomes ineffectual because of resistance, scientists at walter reed will go back to the drug war, go back to the series of 14,000 compounds that were made during the war and will pull another one off the shelf and study it. they were maybe a dozen that showed promise, but when the war ended there was no more research money to develop them. so walter reed scientists have come back, taking them off the shelf, developed them, made them into different analogs and then headed them off to pharmaceutical conference to develop and use again in these programs overseas. so those have become ineffectual because of resistance and start over again pictures that have a good use today except for a chinese herb that we learned about from the chinese that's one drug that didn't come from this project. >> host: and finally, how has your friend's life changed since she got malaria? are the limitations of what she can to? >> guest: no. she's fully recovered. >> host: doesn't say whether? >> guest: this is african malaria. it does not have a liver stage which is why it is not a type of malaria that can survive well in northern climates. it will not hide in the liver and then come out when the mosquitoes. that malaria is called vivax and that you find in asia and find in south america. there are tiny bits of vivax in africa but there's another whole reason why you don't see much of it there. it has to do with a blood mutation that makes most africans completely immune to it. you have an intense infection but when it clears it is gone and it doesn't come back. >> host: a little bit from karen masterson "the malaria project" is the name of the book. booktv is on location at johns hopkins university. >> booktv is on facebook. like us to get publishing news schedule updates, behind the scenes pictures and video. author information and to talk directly with authors turn for life program. facebook.com/booktv. >> in 2008 i got a call from dexter was a very well known war correspondent, and he was a very good friend and would work together very expensively -- extensively in iraq and afghanistan. he called me up and he said hey man, and he talked to everyone with the exact same time whether it's the taliban, become his girlfriend, doesn't matter. he doesn't matter. because the company says hey man, i've got a great assignment. he said, well it's on the talibanization of pakistan. and i remember my husband who was not yet my husband was sitting next to me and he just rolled his eyes and he's like you are not going to be the taliban. i didn't answer. said dexter went to pakistan, and he spent months trying to line up access. and the thing about south asia and the thing about pashto culture, it's a tribal culture is when they bite you
>> so i think that tension needs to be resolved one way with the other, and i think it needs to be resolved around a more foreign policy guidance. the way it works now, let's change, since my day, is we used to sit down with people from the state department usually the deputy secretary, once or twice here and say what's on your mind, what you think of the important countries we should be concentrating on? i hope that when i was undersecretary there was more conversation, but there's no real guidance. and i think that there needs to be. the second thing there needs to be absolutely is a we organization of the bbg. the bbg has now have agency. there's no ceo eric one of the strangest organizations in all of the federal government. the board itself is the head of agency, and the chair really has no more power than any of the other governors. it's kind of a zion to run the show. and by the way, i'm not sure, as the chair, the new chair -- >> nominated. >> nominate, that's all. this is the way that administration's and congress treat this organization, where more money spent on public diplomacy as far as we know them in any other program. doesn't even have a full complement of governors. and, frankly, is in that position. so i think something needs to be done. i also think the bbg gets a really bad rap from people who really are not particularly well-informed about what it does. it does an amazing job in 60 different languages. broadcasting more hours than cnn does. and we don't know about it because we're not allowed to anybody in the united states or show anybody in the united states what's going on. so here is a very, very valuable public diplomacy asset that is not being properly used. and it's not the fault of the people at the bbg. it's a lack of understanding at higher levels of government about how important it is. >> the british have a director general, they may wish of more of a sports team. >> i agree with jim. when i went on that board, it's neither fish nor foul, part of the problem but it has these constant leadership challenges. frankly, my sympathy goes out to the folks who work there and folks in the field because it's very, very difficult to do. and i know that walter isaacson has opposed the sort of significant re-org which i thought made a lot of sense. frankly, i'm not sure where it is these days. but made it more hopefully would make it a highly functioning organization. it is, we need every tool that we have in our arsenal. we need to be able to deploy them effectively. and i think better coordination i think would make a lot of sense. at the same time you got to be sort of aware of the fact that it does have its journalistic standards mission which i think are important. in terms of going back to my previous comment, a whole concept of authenticity, you need to have that. we weren't able that schmidt i think there are about 40 on the team now, but what we did was put in place, which again i think you had started do a much better coordinating function between a state and dod and others who are doing the same thing so that frankly we can take advantage of the numbers that they were able to deploy against a similar mission. so it's in a much more coordinated function with the state actually helping to provide, or at least that was the plan. i have been there for a year, to help provide the messaging into that group, whether the group was housed at state or at dod on the theory that the civilian side of government was better able to understand some of the messaging and would be able, utilizing the resources and a very coordinated fashion to play a really important conversation and games. i can tell you how often i would be out, secretary would be out and people would say well, you know, if you don't believe what we are saying, why aren't you in their saying it? one of the great things of our country is we debate. the more that we can go into these environments which are very, very important places to be, and debate our core value, not just explained them, not just lecture, but actually debate our greatest strengths i think will be stronger. so that was one of the ways we really tried to do that. and also to take the benefit of the folks who were there in the field, give information as to who was the important audiences for the bbg. >> can i just clarify one thing? when i said more guidance from foreign policy leadership for the bbg, i certainly didn't mean that the bbg should forsake or distort or anyway jeopardize the journalistic values. very, very important. but for example, the bbg's, the board of governors decide where the assets are allocated. in other words, if the governors decide we're going to put all the money into india, it's their decision rather than the part of the more strategic decision-making process. congress would get involved if all the money went to one country. >> do you think? [laughter] >> there's certain country's bbg would like to get rid of that congress wouldn't allow and that sort of thing. but i'm guessing it really needs to be part of really part of the foreign policy apparatus. >> i want to open up to question. we have time for about 20 minutes. please keep them brief so we can get as many as possible. go ahead. >> first time i ever saw -- was 1967 in taipei at usia. it was in chinese. but now i work with two groups. one is dhi esper diplomats which serves the diplomatic community here in washington, and arranges events to show them what goes on you. also people to people international who post the foreign officers at the national defense university. was happen with this is weak, and we take these our homes and arrange events with them, then go back to the home countries and remember us. when diplomats wife went to thailand, she's japanese and she set up an organization in thailand. last summer we also did the international children's festival, where 24 embassies got to show the american public what they do and the american public got to learn. one of the things, one of my friends is also with, what was a public diplomacy in afghanistan, out in the country trying to help women. so the fact that the public diplomacy goes a lot of different ways, we can get the diplomats to come here and military officers, they go home and preach our views back there. >> i think it's a good question about what's the role of cultural diplomacy, and particularly what do you guys found as effective? >> i like what you said about alumni and we in congress over years ago were a bit perplexed when found there was not a very effective alumni outreach as part of public diplomacy. that has since changed much to the benefit because the concern was with either brought folks to the united states or we interacted with him and programs overseas, but that wouldn't have an ability to reach out to them. so for example, if we engage with in any scientific field and were sent them a science envoy, could we have that science network so we just weren't preaching to the same 50 every frickin' time there was a public diplomacy event. and that was key and continues to be an aspect. but it's a budgetary aspects. the other problem, alumni program, particularly and her younger outreach programs where we bring them in, we have an exit program to access is where started under the bush administration where we brought children, particularly in the muslim world, to teach them english to english is the hottest commodity of the. we would bring them in. anywhere from six to eighth grade, teach them for two years, teach them english and a foreign country. and hopeless then we could engage them in the yes program to one of the problems in the yes program was we didn't have levels of english proficiency so kids come here could survive. they simply couldn't communicate with the problem is the access program is so big that not everybody can get to the yes program. how you engage those children and those students so that you don't just throw them back into their schools where perhaps the american methodology of education is frowned upon and instead of being embraced, they are abused and then you get the boomerang effect. instead of liking the united states they say i went to the program and not back in my school and they're beating me every time i raise my hand to ask a question to you have to be very careful, but it's important get embrace. >> one thing to add. i agree with paul on that in terms of from a private-sector background, this is an investment we are making in people, and we need to leverage that investment. i would say that there are tools that are going to help us do that and do it better where we can actually now, as we capture the data about the alumni, be sure that we reach out. there was an institutional barrier as well where some folks who have been at usia did not want to actually reach out beyond that because i what if we have an important event, let's reach out to our alumni and provide them with information that they can take into the communities. and they were like knowing no -- no, no. we don't want to do that. worst thing is very precious dollars to achieve our forum policy goals and objectives. if we are not doing that, we shouldn't be spend those dollars, and clearly a huge event in her educational programs whether it's access or yes or any of those programs. does become very, very hopefully in most cases positive and powerful advocates to reach out into the communities in ways we sent we can't do. so it's important to leverage it. one of the investments we're making was to create databases that made this easier for our indices so that they could do it because they are under huge, huge pressure. we keep asking more and more of them. we keep pulling the resources out. is where technology can be really an important and powerful vehicle. i think initially we had to vent -- said several minutes of these people and we have data at about 50,000. i think they've done a lot, put up huge effort trying to improve that. >> we are at a time in the administration, the second term of the administration were question of legacy often comes into play. people start talking about what will this administration be remembered for. so i kind of wonder what you, if you have the opportunity, which he did when you're were in office, at least two of the dead and maybe the others had the opportunity, if this president and the secretary of state, a 20 minute conversation about public diplomacy and what could be done that was particularly useful to leave something behind for years from now, what would be, what kind of things would you bring up? just to give you time to think about, let me remind, the bush administration under secretary glassman together with microsoft and a bunch of other people put together a conference of dissidents from around the world to talk about how to use social media in fomenting revolution. and our indices in some places were a little nervous about having these people come to the u.s. it's possible you could see the end of the arab spring at that conference held at columbus university in 2008. there's a matter of the public diplomacy people coming into the state department are often shunted off into consular work for eight years or whatever, for a long time before the ever get to any public diplomacy were. it's as though you're in the military and call your officers and send them off to, i don't know, do social work and then suddenly brought them back and said now you're in charge of the squadron. well anyway, but -- >> well, thank you, ambassador. and by the way, as far as the arab spring is concerned, i know that i was personally accused by some right wing bloggers having omitted the arab spring but i wish it were true, because of this event. although the event enabled me to do. the thing that was most fun of all of all the things that it did when i was undersecretary, which was that i got to call on the egyptian ambassador. i don't know if you really does, and made them come to my office and dressing gown which is sort of a great thing you can do traditionally as a diplomat. because i warned him that if he stopped the last of the egyptians that we want to come to this conference of doing this, the united states government would take a very, very dim view of that. anyway, so that was fun. but, you know, i really think, i think the answer that is sort of the broad answer is, in fact, building networks. whether that's something, is that the current legacy that a president would say hey, we don't all these networks, probably not. but i do think that's what you leave come and networks can be built through alumni. i think that's a great idea. and just identifying the alumni becomes very difficult. very happy to see that the network that was started with the alliance for youth movements, alliance of youth movements has been picked up by secretary clinton and by judith, and it's still around. and that's only one example, but many others that you do, you know, not secret but i don't think i really want to talk about. i think that ultimately that's the most them important kind of legacy. i do think that as far as president obama is concerned that he really has an opportunity going forward to do more public diplomacy. but for reasons that i said, number one, is cost effective, and number two, it is, it fits the technology of the time, much better, frankly, and any of the other assets that can be deployed to reach, to reach the national interest. so i think, i think if he were to elevate the importance of public diplomacy, and you can do that dramatically three organizations are in a different way, say we're going to take a billion dollars out of military budget, give it to public diplomacy, well, that would create a kind of change that would produce i think an important legacy. >> i think, you know, if i were to look at it, probably along the lines that jim has described it, you sort of have an understanding and acceptance that the world has changed. that we will not be able, we will not be able to move our foreign policy goals and objectives forward without having a better relationship, better understanding, engagement with people all over the world. we simply can't do it. the world has changed so dramatically and so fundamentally with technology and with information and power now being widely dispersed, that we've got to find better ways of influencing foreign populations. we simply can't go forward. and i think that that is something that this administration understands and has taken to heart, and that's what all the things that we put in place was to do that. we don't have an alternative the we simply cannot go forward to do the things that we needed to in our own national interest and less we understand that, how do we facilitate those dialogues, how do we build the networks in a very meaningful way. p.j. talked about what we found we look out egypt adhere to everything that was going on. people, you know, all over governments here were likely to we talk to? whose important? here's the scoop. right now industry there's nobody who can raise their hand and so i can identify who was the leader of egyptian revolution, because there wasn't one. it was coalition's ever-changing coalitions of interest moving. as you look at the social media map you see that there was no one leader. so we have got, we as a government and, frankly, governments everywhere have got to figure out to do that, how did he get into that marketplace of ideas. one of the things that we did, not surprising with my background, i was very focused on consumer research, understand what was going on. one of the things i found it in government, we spent a lot of time, hundreds of millions of dollars, looking at economic elites, political elites in others, looking through different lenses. if you just look at it that way, you don't look at it to a more classic consumer lens, then if you are a young 20 year old person in pakistan who is never had a job or doesn't want to a political party, we have missed you so now, in understanding which were thinking about. potential to are very serious detriment. so getting out into the marketplace, understand building those critically important networks, engage with people, not preaching to them, i think would be a great legacy. >> i think the legacy -- i don't think the legacy has been written yet. i tend to look at publicly diplomacy primer through a -- ultimately the best public diplomacy is our policies that reflect your interests and your values, and as i said before, the gap between what we say in what we do is as narrow as it can be. and then challenge for public diplomacy is that we make policy on a local basis, country by country, but we communicate global your answers always going to be changed between what you do, vis-à -vis a particular country, and then how it relates to your broader pronouncements. so i think in terms of legacy, i think probably the challenge for the administration, second term, is can you connect cairo and oslo, you know, to incredible speeches in 2009, to decisions that will have to be made about bahrain and iran. and if you can connect cairo to bahrain, then how do we feel about democracy, we understand there's a concept but how does it apply to a monarchy that is under siege, that's one. and then, how do we connect oslo as the president talked about just war to a decision that has to be made about the prospect of using military force to solve a difficult and consequential matter of iran's nuclear mission. if you can eventually draw a line from one to the other, one to the other, then that would be a significant public diplomacy legacy. >> i think p.j. is right, the legacy august the, you four more years ago but it's going to clergy been on the outcomes of withdrawal of iraq and downsize in afghanistan and how that goes together goes well, you get a great legacy. poorly, it will inflame the region and in packaged in a. the one thing we've not yet had a chance to touch on in this discussion, is the role of course of china. secretary made big push for internet freedom. i think this will be huge but i think make sense as we discussed social media, it's great if you do social media but if nobody can read your stuff because you're the great firewall, not quantity a lot of good. the amount of resources and effort we put them towards that will be huge. with issues in russia where radio free europe radio free europe basic or shut down its operations because they can't get the licensing because the government refuses to allow licenses to reading stations. we're going to see that. that to me, how we continue to use technology to push public diplomacy forward towards regimes that are going to use technology or intimidation to prevent that i think is going to really determine how the next four years ago. [inaudible] >> i would. it's a law that stops the state department from communicating with americans. it does present a lot of problems in an internet age. can i just add one thing? what p.j. said reminded me that i may have forgotten the most important legacy of all, and one of the things i meant to say here, which is i think that public diplomacy needs a big success. i think for public diplomacy to grow and become more important, we need to be able, the mecca people need to be able to point to something and say hey, that works. so for example, most americans believe that radio free europe helped bring down the iron curtain. and if that's true. but what can we say about public diplomacy in recent years, despite the fact i think there've been a lot of achievements? it's hard to answer that question. and in my view that answer may lie in the country that p.j. mentioned, which is iran. where we can point to something and say we actually had an effect there. i think we actually had an effect in egypt, and one of the things that we've done at the bipartisan policy center is to codify that affect. what did america do in egypt that might have helped a little bit in the arab spring. spin we have time for one more question. >> i'm a senior policy analyst at my question involves the strategic purpose of public diplomacy. a bit of a discussion day about strategic versus tactical, so during the cold war with figures of public diplomacy bringing down the soviet union. what is its purpose now, a lot of people said it's the war of ideas, against silence extremism but an open way of sort a better, more grand strategic force and is wondering if i could get your thoughts? >> great, terrific, thank you for that question. does the war of ideas still a viable concept or have we moved past that? >> i think it's the most viable concept, although i have to say that during the transition i was warned by all the transition people not to use that term. i don't know whether the term has been banned or not, and i understand war, we don't like war. we do like ideas. so i do think whatever you want to call it, ideological competition of ideas is good. we use the term strategic engagement because that means whatever anybody wants it to mean. the fact is we are in an ideological struggle. i think one of the differences between the bush administration and the obama administration is that we believed, and a big many of us continue to believe, that this is a long war not against al qaeda. al qaeda is one manifestation but against a particular ideology. so our national security goals were, one, keep america safe, too, help promote freedom around the world. and those two things are linked because we believe they were linked. free countries are less likely to make were on their neighbors. so i think that to me the grand strategic goal of public diplomacy is the same as the grand strategic goal of foreign policy and national security policy, which is to achieve those two goals. and i think you never ever want to forget that those are the goals that need to be achieved. and public diplomacy's role in that i think does, in fact, revolve around the ideological part. and it is, not to quote myself, i hate to do that, but i can't say it any better. [laughter] >> a great man once said. >> the aim must be to ensure that negative sentiments and day-to-day grievances toward the united states and its allies did not manifest themselves to violence. we are never going to change everybody's minds as they believe exactly what we believe. but most believe that the united states is out to destroy islam. so how do you deal with that? one whale to do -- to deal with that is to say no, that is not to. we're in boston, we're in kuwait. we have 2000 mosques. i don't think a straight effective quite frankly. i think a much better approach is an approach which combined with the kind of things we do with exchange programs and other softer means, public diplomacy 2.0, to get to a point where people can believe that. that the pernicious belief. it's wrong but people can believe. it doesn't mean they will kill us. so those are the goals. it is a battle of ideas, but it's a battle of ideas that will take a long time to win. i do think and public diplomacy we sometimes forget the imports of that ideological struggle, which may be the most important of all. >> i think i would say it somewhat differently but you've heard me say earlier that i believe quite passionately that public diplomacy is there to ensure that everything we do that we achieve our foreign policy goals and objectives, which frankly very country to country, region to region. and so in some parts of the world, some of the struggles we've been talking about are higher than they are in others. but, frankly, what we're trying to do to be sure that public diplomacy was closely aligned with the policy side of our diplomatic efforts, to be sure if we were not, if you could not demonstrate that a program or an initiative was link to our current goals and objectives, then we shouldn't be doing that. when we went through a review we came across a number of programs which were not tied to current policy goals and objectives. i carry member frankly at the top of my head what some of them were, but there were a lot of dollars. for example, being spent in projects which evolved out of post second world war to europe. it was a huge about of money being spent in that effort. and i was like that was great 60 years ago but it probably doesn't make much sense now. so we went through a very strategic review, region by region, and allocating those dollars, being sure they were focused in an appropriate way to help us achieve those objectives, whether it was in china or india or latin america, what have you, working very, very closely with the two have to be closely aligned. >> pg, real quickly. >> i would say if the cold war was a competition of two systems, at the end of the cold war, more countries than not wanted to join our system. that's the thrust of a terrific book by john eikenberry of princeton called the liberal leviathan which we have built this modern international systems web of networks and associations and groupings and alliances, and everyone, it's an open system to anyone who wants to join and play by the goals can do so. and it is still a system that draws people from various parts of the world into the web that we are, what is the imf, world bank, united nations, nato, et cetera said. to revise architecture that we are building in asia. so that is the essence of the competition, probably at the end of this is exactly what the new yemeni president did. he was willing to stand with the united states and do so publicly. and that is the ultimate challenge. as jim was saying earlier, mutual interest, mutual respect, and i would add to that shared responsibility where we now that the solve any international challenge, no one can come to the united states can't do it alone, but, you know, you can't solve the challenges as her former boss hillary clinton said, you can't solve any global challenge without meaningful participation by the united states. and ultimately it's encapsulated in the administration's approach to libya, you know, where the president was being pressured by john mccain, lindsey graham, greg, kenya people on the hill go faster. and the president spent a little more time to make sure that there was consensus in the region, resolution from the united nations that gave legitimacy, and partners willing to share the burden to get something meaningful done, which was the transition, difficult as it is, that is underway in libya. that's the way the united states prefers to do business. the more we can do it that way, it reinforces our policies. it reinforces our values, and that probably is the most meaningful thing we can do in terms of promoting outcomes that have public diplomacy at their heart. >> i was going to say, if you don't have the benefit of the doubt, just let public -- [inaudible] >> let me conclude by asking you a yes or no question. looking forward for years, over the next four years, is there any realistic chance of significant reform, we organization of public diplomacy, or significant increase for public diplomacy? >> yes, yes, no. >> which one is the no? >> possibly the bbg. we have a thing called a debt out there. that cliff. spent yes, no, no. no on reorganization, no on diplomacy. >> that i mention i moved to new york so i don't have to wait in? just based on my experience from which is now a little bit out of date, yes on smith public it on funding communist, i think that is unrealistic to expect that there'll be significant funding, in terms of transfer we did a lot of reorganization with state. i think there's always work to be done in that, and hopefully that will be more. >> yeah, i think that, i think smith bought and bbg we organization does. i would say yes to the. and funding i would say probably, probably not. although that would be unfortunate. it seems to me that there are ways to move money within the state department budget that would make the state department as a whole more effective by putting more emphasis on public diplomacy. and certainly, moving national security dollars around to diplomacy would also be helpful and doesn't necessarily have to all go to the state department as part of public diplomacy. also, can i say something i forgot is in the beginning? i'm going to say two things. first, i want to thank gw, and i gave my a victory address, if you want to go by, here on january 14, 2000. i saw marc lynch in the hall. i know he couldn't hear but i wanted to thank you for the. it was right nice of him to allow me to do the together thing, i mentioned a book that p.j. mentioned, the eikenberry book, especially to the students were here which is the righteous mind. to me, and most important factor in public diplomacy is how to change peoples minds? and i think it's a very, very deep and important question that he explores, the unfortunate we didn't have time to talk about today the we talked about a lot of real interesting things spent there's a lot of state department people here, so who's budget are you taking the money out of? >> i think i gave a little hit before. i booted to thank that we should, we should, i'm reading a book in which why either so many embassies, somebody has are intended the telephone. so that was a while ago. you know, i just think we need to look at what are our priorities? how do we reach these important national goals? and is the way the state department is structured the best way to do that? look, obviously it's easier -- a great job of organizing public diplomacy committee should you do that then reorganize the whole state to partner. i'm just a shifting dollars. >> i have to say i started off my tenure there by saying this will be real simple. will just take money from the defense department. that didn't go very far, let me see. but one final point on budgeting. each and every one of you in this room have an important role that you can play if you choose to do that. we need to do a better job of explaining to the people of this country why this is so important. and ignorance gap across the country in terms of what we do and what we spend on foreign relations and foreign affairs generally is ridiculous to the average person thinks we spend 10 to 20% of our total budget on it, which is clearly much less than we do. but that is a very challenging thing that our colleagues in congress face from their constituents and why are you spending all this money overseas when, in fact, it's very small. we need to do a better job of educating people in terms of what we actually stand and why in fact it is so important. and that conversation needs to take place frankly across the country and outside washington. i know p.j. tried very hard to do that, but each of you as you go forward can play a critical role in helping that dimension of what we're talking about. >> and by the by, revising smith mont, i think revising smith mont would help do that because a lot of people are shy about talking about what the state department does, will we do in foreign policy because smith mont come into smith mont doesn't necessary stop you from doing that, but it's an excuse to not do that. >> didn't rid of smith mont would enable voice of america, corresponding and country, cnn, msnbc, fox news could have no interest of supporting but if you have deal with reporters and other pieces picked up by american media with as little thought our radio free europe or asia, that which with american taxpayer what they're getting for their money. last word. the other things, we talked about public diplomacy, nontraditional. so the bush administrations had far program, you think it is a public diplomacy? limited, also, the score, huge public diplomacy. and the question is how do we can leverage those not state department aspects of public diplomacy. when the department of defense and the mercy ship for tsunami relief, you don't think that's public diplomacy? i want to get back to china. i think it's just so important that we continue to focus on that and same way my generation and a buddy, we all studied russian. now they're all starting chinese. administration has this 100,000 strong program, over the course of four years they want to get 100,000 americans studying mandarin in china. we've been talking so much about bringing people here, is so important at the same time government funds be used to send potential future american born policy leaders and thinkers and shapers overseas to experience, you touched a walk in someone else's shoes to i think is great programs there as well. it's a continuing cycle. spent i have to go teach. >> there's also reason to be optimistic. and what we just went to hear, which was a fascinating election to the rest of the world, and contrast would talk about china, contrast our vigorous election, crazy as it was, and the current ongoing chinese election process, which is in a dark room, you know, and very mysterious. that's why i'm optimistic. despite of all of our failings and flaws, we still retain that appeal. we have to work on our internal politics and understand what the fiscal cliff and the rest of the work is paying attention to the fiscal cliff, but when people look at the competition they keep on coming back to the united states. >> please join me in thanking our great panel. a wonderful job. thank you very much. [applause] >> [inaudible conversations] >> an[inaudible conversations] >> on "washington journal" this point, we were joined by republican representative ron paul of texas. a member of the foreign affairs committee. he will take your questions about today's hearing on the attack on the u.s. consulate in libya. you will hear about the fiscal cliff and independent senator bernie sanders of vermont. also, the kaiser family foundation will look at friday's deadline for states to establish health insurance exchanges under the affordable care act. "washington journal" is live on c-span every day at 7 a.m. eastern. >> you are watching c-span2 with politics and public affairs, weekdays featuring live coverage of the u.s. senate. on weeknights, watch key public policy this. and every weekend, the latest nonfiction authors and books on booktv. you can see past programs and get our schedules at our website, and you can join in on the conversation on social media sites. >> tuesday, "the wall street journal"'s ceo council held its and a meeting in washington, d.c. next, former spanish by minister jose maria aznar gives his assessment of the european debt crisis and future of the european union. this is 30 minutes. >> [inaudible conversations] >> [inaudible conversations] locked into this cycle of austerity and contraction. can you give us a sense, you were prime minister of spain for eight years before this crisis broke, can you give us a sense here of what, about serious europeans are and what needs to be done right now to come out of this tailspin the european economy seems to be in? >> first of all, let me express my gratitude for this invitation. i'm very pleased to be here. thank you very much. and good morning, all of you. in europe, several hours seems very important, pleased to resolve. but personally i consider there's a lot of competition between policies. given the history of the euro, single currency, if that's the case, was combination of flexibility one hand, and discipline on the other and. as you combined both, the results are good difficult is that you forget that discipline, you have a problem. you eliminate flexibility. and now the moment is how it's possible to recover growth. i think that growth is a consequence not exactly of the economic cycle. not exactly of automatic decision, is question of good resilience and good policy. and good policy is difficult. bad policies, differences, good and bad economics. must recover in europe at least three key questions. discipline, fiscal discipline to second, to create a financial union, and second, to start a serious agenda over agenda for the future. if we fail in these three key questions, it will be more and more -- [inaudible] every day. >> you were prime minister of spain. you in some ways one of the founding fathers of the year. you were prime minister when the euro was launched. it seems such a good idea at the time to a lot of people i have to say, speaking as an english then, not all of us share that view and some people stayed out of the project. but are the problems now so great that they call into survival, call into question the very survival of the euro? can the euro survive as it is currently constituted, or does there need to be a breakup? >> in my view, the situation, the euro -- [inaudible] we have created a very important -- around the euro. [inaudible] and i think everywhere, everybody in the euro zone want, like, that the euro persist in the future. i think the euro will be robust. the problem has to be more -- [inaudible]. my personal express is the combination of this flexibility is a good question. i remember very well when, 1976, in the beginning of the transition, spain walked in, too many people. 1996, spain working, 2 million people. in 20 years, because it was incapable to create one single net job. eight years after spain working, 17 million people worked. eight years more after the socialist government, the plague of the socialist government, spain continued working, 17 million jobs. i can't explain the difference between good and bad decisions. >> wasn't some of that growth that you enjoyed from the early part of the 2000, late 1990s, wasn't it built on things the euro itself brought you, very lowest rates, tremendous capital inflows would have interested, and enough implications of the banking sector with a lot of bad loans in the banking sector but in the end wasn't a lot of that growth lucy reed really and now you're paying the price? >> you are making sustainable things if you make bad decisions. if you're very disciplined in the bad decisions, you can be, to have a balanced budget, you can take decisions to break this balance. it's a bad decision to it's a consequence to the bad decision. look here, the decision of -- [inaudible] the administration to the revenues for the country, or t try,. [inaudible] very important debate. but you breakup, you breakup the logical -- summit you have a research project we have a problem. [inaudible] we can look in europe today, different statistics changes. for instance, if you ask european leader, different than me, they can't explain you that we are very happy with victory of mr. obama in u.s. obama is better than romney for our interest. this american policy is very detrimental for europe. because -- [inaudible] more higher price of raw materials. and less gross. and during the next years, the domestic demand would be very, very, very weak, and we must expand our possibilities and export, and exportation is. but if it is possible for us to export, well, the situation will be more complicated. and this is, we need a consequence of a agreement between european leaders, and american leaders. if you're trying to recover the economy, with very sound pillars. >> let's look at what's happening in spain right now. you got a situation the last couple of months where there seems have been some stabilization in the bond market. since the ecb, since mario dragging it is commitment that the ecb will buy up the bonds of spain and italy and other countries and possibly, if there is a bailout essential because there is pulled from the european authorities to financial support. to fill the holes in the spanish budget. so when the markets is him a great will happen and the bond yields came down. and yet were still waiting for your successor as prime minister to ask for this bailout. but he seems to be reluctant to do so sore in this game of chicken where he is not asking for the bailout. the markets are still expecting him to ask for the bailout and, therefore, expecting the ecb to bail out, to buy out the bonds. when is he going to win is going to bite the bullet and get this bailout so we can actually start to do the things that the markets releasing to think are necessary to get europe on a more stable paths because well, three, four remarks. without bailout, spain needed more reforms. we have reformed our state. we decentralized -- [inaudible] the elements cohesion of the country. first of all. second, we must reform our welfare restate. welfare state in this moment, very unsustainable. must make fiscal reform and energy reform, education reform. but anyway, second. in this moment i don't know whether this will mean that's been in this moment i consider the bailout is not critical for the country. >> why not? >> one, because the condition they can establish after you ask the bailout may be will be the same policies that the government trying to intimate in spain. an advantage in terms of finance countries, of credit, but i believe you have limited -- [inaudible] and this is a price, a medical term, maybe economic terms will be in my view would be my view, more than -- [inaudible]. the second, but the bailout we're talking about bailout not in the greater terms. bailout not depend only of the will of the spanish government. depend on the approval of the rest of the government's. >> particularly germany, right? >> because it is the most important country. but i am convinced the germans reject any totally the possibility spend go ask you don't spank you think germany will veto any bailout for spring? >> absolute. i am convinced of this. so before the german elections, nothing happened in europe spent the german elections are not for another year. next fall. >> one year is maybe, to be only one year, i don't know. but that's one year. >> that's a long time. the markets are clearly expecting something before then. you don't think that -- >> this is reality. it is reality. in a way this is one of the reasons, i explained we must to do a lot of reform, continue to be a lot of reformists, to back spain's credibility or 10 years ago in spain was a country, and today it's a country tripled be. two different countries. >> could go lower. spent we might have recover the possibility for this to put credit in the hands would be very important. another part is it's a responsibility, this treaty questions, banking union. banking union for me is a question. [inaudible] this european supervisory mechanism for resolution, and current system. it is the same asset value for the euro in berlin than in madrid. it is a value of the euro is different in madrid and rome, in paris than in berlin. doesn't work. and the only means to guarantee this is to establish this deposit system. >> let me go back to germany. that goes to the heart of the european system. at the germans are not going to back a bailout, and they would say why should we? we've got her on restructuring and our own economy over a very long period of time, we worked till 65 or even older in germany, work long hours, we're very productive, we are very productive economy or why should we bail out country country with his to want a very strong social safety nets, where they want a early retirement, whether what have all these things that germans have given up? so that's the german view. that if it is the german get and you have determined either and you have the spanish and portuguese and greek and other on the other side, doesn't it point to a fundamental weakness in the very structure of the euro, that you fundamentally different economies, fundamentally different political systems, and you don't have the political legitimacy? because people in spain don't accept the idea that germans can tell them how many hours they should work each week or when they can return. the people in germany don't except the spanish should be able to do what they want to do and expect the germans in the end to bail them out. isn't that ultimately the problem? this is something that is not politically sustainable. >> i agree with you, but this -- [inaudible] the original success for europe is a situation that is possible in different countries, different histories, different historical nations. and objectives. [inaudible] in ukraine, the euro is advantage for european countries. you must finish this. i would think for germans and for spanish, for other people, the question reasonably, logical basis. this is the reason for the banking to another thing, if you change political view, and in this moment, in this moment the most important change in europe is the real power of europe, reside in brussels, reside in berlin. and don't forget we have create europe, to create a european germany. and to avoid a german europe. and you have to take a german europe. spent do you think that's where we are now? >> there's not any doubt about this. any doubt about this. the question is, if the situation changed political visions in the german leadership, if you don't change political, and they continue the commitment with construction of the euro, the idea of the european union, you can do a lot of things in the future. if not, the question is open, no? >> but isn't that a bigger problem for the non-german people of europe, that you're exactly right. that was exactly what the european union was created. you created a situation now where germany will be peaceably, fortunately unlike in the past, controlling, controlling your. that's not a situation that is acceptable to the spanish. >> depends, if you can influence alongside the european institution, you decide to enforce the decision. this is different. the problem in europe today is that there is not balances in european parliament. uk is out of the decisions in europe. out of unison. maybe you can decide to a level. france is in a situation with our my back, the possibility to balance german, nonexistent. .. >> and extend and enlarge the system of values will be extremely important. europe and the u.s. looking only this administration, looking only the pacific. i think the problems, domestic problems -- but i believe this is a mistake. for instance, we have the opportunity to create in the next months a very important free trade area between europe and u.s. the next spring. you can take -- [inaudible] france is in february, germany is in february. if you paint free trade, the first step to create an atlantic carrier possibility, sure, send a message of stability to the rest of the world. fantastic. and this is one of the things that can be done with -- [inaudible] in the next months. >> thank you. and quickly, there's ceos here with a lot of business in europe, and they'll be interested, i'm sure, to hear what the prime minister says about the prospects for european growth. any questions about what's going on in europe? because i have a couple more questions i'd like to ask him. let me ask you then quickly, prime minister, if i may, in spain there's going to be an election in catalonia in the last couple of weeks, barcelona, is it going to be capital of a different can country in the near future? -- different country in the near future? >> [inaudible] [laughter] we are the -- [inaudible] we live the last 500 years now. but nationalism is a problem in europe, you know? where this is a history of -- after the fall of the berlin wall all the former -- [inaudible] ran. with the nationalists, i think death to nationalism. but with nationalism it's converted in radicalism, is expression of society that this is capable to make or to give every day steps in favor of totalitarian society, no? i predicted this. the will of the spanish people is to keep in the unity of the country. >> are but, again, this goes to the problem it seems to me in europe that is reflected with the euro crisis more generally and these movements for secession in sat loan ya and -- catalonia and scotland. >> they differ a little bit. >> well -- >> no, no, no, no -- [laughter] [inaudible] >> no, that's true. >> as exempt as it was in two centuries. we have a constitutional law, and never catalonia was independent, never -- [laughter] >> what i'm driving at is the political discontent the people feel, they feel disconnected and disempowered from their leadership. increasingly, what the euro seems to have created is a system that lacks political legitimacy. you've just said the europeans are going to be essentially led by germany. this represents a lack of democratic accountability in europe where people are simply not able to choose the direction their own countries are taking whether you have a technocratic government in italy, whether you have, you know, what's been going on, um, you know, in spain, your country, and other countries too. there seems to be just a simple lack of power residing in the power. the normal power resides either in brussels or berlin, and this is creating tremendous dissatisfaction. >> well, the politics is not attractive profession at this moment everywhere. even in europe. is very tough to spend time in politics. and in europe we live in a crisis in this sense now, but there's different crisis. what thing is the not democratic origin of a tech to accuratic government in -- technocratic government in italy, and the other thing is that in some parts of europe nationalists -- [inaudible] look in the map of europe and thinking, well, the map of europe in the future will be different. this is our opportunity. if you, if you have the right to be independent. i think this is not possible. i think we must -- the pillars is our democracies taken seriously and respect our problems, no? it is very easy to, everywhere to establish a negative campaign to destroy another candidate. is more complicated to establish a good program with good policies to recover the current position of a country. but i personally believe in this policy. maybe -- [inaudible] >> no, no. [laughter] but as you look at the u.s., do you see what's been going on in the u.s. in the last few years with a big explosion of the fiscal debt with the failure of politicians really to get to terms with it, with a growing dependency on benefits, a growing proportion of the population dependent on the government? do you see signs the u.s. is going the way of europe, the way europe, unfortunately, finds itself now? >> i hope not. i don't know. because it is absurd to establish in europe the same problems of a welfare state in europe. but i only consider that the policy of the current administration, with the new current administration is that to export inflation -- >> expose inflation? >> expose inflation and to put more money, more money every day, well, it's not that simple. >> the federal reserve, you're saying doing that. >> [inaudible] but you must establish very serious programs to -- [inaudible] i personally share the idea that lower taxes is for economy. no more taxes. ing less programs and expensing to -- expenses to work. in the future i believe not only for the u.s., but as well for different regions in the country have not improved the competitiveness of this country, this is my personal view. i hope that in the next weeks can be an agreement, a compromise between both parties about this cliff problem. but it's necessary to stand this for the future. because the responsibility of this country is very important. the tendency of the world is now a days some chaotic tendencies. the only country with capacity to establish some order in the world is u.s. but it's, let me say, not leading behind are the third or largest population in the world after china and india. we have a lot of rich countries. it's fantastic living in europe, especially in the south of europe. [laughter] >> the north isn't too bad. >> the weather is good. the weather is better. [laughter] >> certainly better -- >> but the question is for me, the question is we are -- [inaudible] you consider that this is a question of years ago. and it is a question for you. you decided to continue -- [inaudible] the stability that we all allow, and look at the map of the world. the western balance continue to be the wonderful balance of the world. i wish to defend this. in the atlantic you can extend this alliance. look in the atlantic. it is not true that only the future is in the pacific. look in the atlantic. water reserves, oil reserves and land. it's very impressive. and you look in europe, north america, south america, you recreate an atlantic space not against anything, but in favor of the most ability in the world. this is an expression of this possibility agreement, free trade agreement, economic opportunity between europe and you can extend the this for the rest of the world. -- [inaudible] >> if you reside your policies, if you base your policy in and just say it is the same, it's not important or, it's the same lower tax system, less tax system we're spending -- [inaudible] well, we have more complications. >> prime minister, thank you very much. whatever the future view, we can certainly agree that if your own -- that in your own career you stood up to people in europe in tremendous political difficulties to support the united states at a very difficult moment for the united states, very rare, and you took a very brave stand. so all americans, whatever they think of maybe the future of europe, should certainly be extremely grateful for what you've done for the transatlantic relationship, the united states and europe over the last 20 years. and also you've flown a long way to be here just to be with us today, and you're going straight back to spain this afternoon. so, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking -- [applause] >> thank you very much. >> today the senate armed services committee hears from general joseph dunford, four-star general and assistant commandant of the marine corps. he's been nominated to replace general allen as leader of u.s. and nato forces in afghanistan. we'll be live from his confirmation hearing at 9:30 a.m. eastern on c-span3. today booktv hosts a webcast with author jon meacham, the executive editor and executive vice president of random house who will discuss his new biography of president thomas jefferson. see it live at 7 p.m. eastern on booktv.org. next, from the annual "wall street journal"'s ceo council, remarks by former world bank president robert zoellick and former chairman of the council of economic advisers, austan goolsbee, and michael boskin. they discuss the global economy and the so-called fiscal cliff in which automatic tax hikes would take place unless congress acts. this is 45 minutes. >> the former chairman of the council of economic advisers under president obama, and michael boskin, who spoke last night briefly and is the chief economic adviser for george h.w. bush and is now a stanford economic professor. so we have a whole world to span. i want to start out with the united states. very few people in this room understand the president as well as us and, goolsby, a lot of legal are asking what is -- a lot of people are asking what is going to come of the fiscal cliff. i'd like to ask you to describe for us how do you see the budget negotiations playing out over the next six months? >> well, it feels to me like they almost had a deal last year. the principal bottle neck last year was not that the president was unwilling to offer cuts, it was that there was a group of republicans in the house who wouldn't go for the revenue. and i kind of think that's still the bottleneck now. um, you probably saw the article this morning from hubbard, you saw what boehner said. i take from this collection some optimism that in 2013 the way it might play out is whether we go over, don't go over the fiscal cliff, you know, there's a lot to happen in the next three months that we get to some space where if they did a trillion dollars of cuts and reforms of entitlements, a trillion dollars on discretionary, a trillion of new revenue and a trillion of saved interest which is only because the budget doesn't understand the present value, but, you know, that's okay, if you did that, you basically could sort out a grand bargain in a way that would be, i think, a pretty good accomplishment for both parties. but i think the principal thing in that is can you get a significant chunk of republicans in the house to support anything that's got a trillion dollars of revenue in it. >> so you think they reach a bargain. you kind of moved quickly over the cliff, what happens to get to that bargain? >> yeah, sorry, i thought that's what you were asking is. i'm somewhat pessimistic they will be able to sort out that bargain in the next two months, so i'm afraid there's, i think, a pretty serious danger they go over the fiscal cliff in the short run because they're the same people, and it's the same dynamic it feels like to me as what happened last summer. and one thing i'm pretty confident is not going to happen is the president is not going to agree to something that's going to just kick the can months down the road and put everything back again onto the debt ceiling negotiations which still has to come in february or march. that's what happened at the end of 2010. they thought they were doing a bipartisan agreement that would show, look, the two parties can do something together, they can agree to extend the tax cuts for two years, and that took away all of the i don't know if you call it leverage, it took away all of the points of negotiation and left only a debt ceiling negotiation in which the president had nothing to offer or demand, and the other side had nothing to offer, and it was just a meltdown. >> michael boskin, robert zoellick, so here we have this scenario a grand bargain with a lot of volatility before we get there. is that how you see this playing out as well? >> i think it's probably going to be difficult to get the fiscal cliff resolved in a major way in any permanent sense in the next couple of months because of what we said last night. the democrats really have a strategic advance that will expire, the baseline changes and thing ofs of sort. republicans have a different set of incentives. i do believe it is not just about numbers. it i disagree with austan's argumentization of what caused --, characterization of what caused the negotiations to fall apart. so i think that the following is possible for republicans to go for in the end a serious entitlement reform, probably not as much as they would like, but structural, not just numbers that might evaporate changes in retirement ages and benefit formulas and things of that sort with enforcement mechanisms; that any revenue be a modest portion of the total, perhaps slightly more than they would like, but substantially on the spending side. all the evidence is from all the-world war ii fiscal consolidations is they averaged $5 or $6 of actual, not projected, tax cuts. successful in the sense of both consolidating the budget and avoiding the recession. and also that the revenues come from a base broadening, not -- i would propose a people as well as activity, but base broadening, not rates. that's going to be easier to do if there's some tax reform as well and some pro-growth policies along with it. and maybe that's a way they can both agree -- >> we have two people saying we go over the cliff. how about you, robert? are you expecting that? >> well, we've got a lot of deal makers in this room, and what i think is important in this is when you have on the table in terms of tax reform, entitlement reform would make ronald reagan look like a piker. so alan murray wrote the classic book on tax reform. he knows how hard it was, with some or very good people. >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> so the point is, in the fess fess -- fiscal cliff or in this period you're not going to get my of this done. joe lieberman outlined what would be a potential approach. you do some sort of cutting, maybe a little bit of some modest revenue, you then move back to regular order which trent lott was talking about last year, but then you need some mechanism like a simpson-bowles ii to enforce the discipline. my worry is, and this is where i disagree with austan. you read bob woodward's book and "the washington post" reporting and, frankly, the people doing the negotiating up there on both sides don't know something about the basics of negotiation, starting with the fact that you need one piece of paper that says here's what we agree on and here's what we don't agree on. so the bottom line if i were a ceo, what i'd be worried about is if these people just talk to each other as opposed to negotiate and kind of pontificate about their positions which is what we see now but could change, then i think the president will be very tempted to say let the tax cuts expire, it's not sustainable because the alternative minimum tax and ore things. but he will think it will give him some different leverage going into next year. now, that's gutsy given the state of the economy, but i think people need to be prepared for it. >> that's three people saying we're going over the cliff. let's talk about the rest of the world. we have a question we want to ask if we could call it up. we want to ask the ceos in the room where are you investing and hiring in 2013, in which region, the united states, hassen america, africa, europe? and we'll put up the answer as soon as it comes in. let's start talking about your global growth outlooks and where you all expect growth to happen. why don't woe start with you, robert. >> you can call me bob. >> sorry. >> the striking thing is that over the past five years two-thirds of global growth has come from developing countries, and as recently as the '90s, that number would have been in the 20s. and u.s. exports have gone from 25 percent to developing countries to 50%. so you've got combined with what we heard about europe and in a sense the dem cardiovascular problems in japan, you've got a big shift in the international system going on. and a lot of those countries will also have challenges like in china with avoiding the middle income trap and the social shift. but what i want to connect to, the stuff we're doing at home in the united states isn't enough. the united states then needs an international economic strategy so that it can leverage a domestic revival with a new international growth system. because the old system is no longer going to exist in the old form, and you've got these rising economies, and, you know, you've got markets there. africa grew at 5-6% a year for a decade before the crisis and is now back on a growth trajectory. so there's opportunities in every one of those developing markets. >> can these markets keep up the pace of growth that they've demonstrated in the last ten years? we're already seeing china slow down. is the last ten years a signal of what -- >> it varies by economy. china is slowing down. you've got less labor coming into the market, and that goes to this critical issue of what we did with our report with china about the middle income trap, how you increase -- keep productivity, how you keep growth going when you start to get $5-$6,000 a year per capita income. this creates opportunities. they're going to have to open the service sector which would actually help the united states. the trade patterns, the logistics, the supply chains, the investment. i was talking with one of the ceos today, or last night whose major company was bought out by a chinese country. what's important for the people to recognize is not just in trade or growth but whether it's investment, tourism, supply exchange, the system is going to go through a transformation. each of those provide, actually, some opportunities. >> austan, growth -- >> well, look, the u.s. has been growing, you know, maybe 2% which is not good, and that's the fast of pretty much the whole advanced world. and, i mean, that tells you what's, what is wrong and has been wrong. it's a mess for most of the developed -- >> what do you make of this answer,? we have the -- >> well, if you look at the u.s. context, other than the 6-9 months of bumpiness, i think the prospects are not bad in the u.s. the fact that major companies are investing is likely a forward-looking indicator. the population's up about ten million since the recession started, household formation's been close to zero, we got way overbuilt in housing. historically, housing-related -- call it construction, real estate, you know, some household-o cented manufacturing -- is about a third of a normal expansion. it's a iley cyclical part of the economy, and we've gotten literally zero from that from multiple years. so as we start to turn the corner, even if it doesn't go back to the go-go days to have 2000s, that's till going to add some -- still going to add some significant component to the growth rate in the u.s., and, you know, we could probably get up someplace well above 2%. so i don't think these, i don't think those numbers are that surprising. i do think on average e memorying markets -- emerging markets tend to grow faster, they start from a low base, but when they go wrong, they go terribly wrong. i think we want them to keep growing the way they've been growing. i mean, as bob said, that's -- europe's at best going to be stagnant in the medium term. japan has had a well-documented growth problem. and so it has to come from the merging markets theater. i mean, if we're going to shift to exports and investment-led growth, it's going to naturally be to those markets. >> michael, is this a vote of confidence -- >> i'm not sure that you can just take those numbers at face value. i'd like to know where the existing investment is. those percentages should be compared to their base as well. >> well, this is -- we asked them where they're increasing investment and hiring the most -- >> yeah. but the increase could be because they've got a lot of stuff they're replacing. you increase at 10%, but that doesn't mean that all of it is new stuff. second of all, the u.s. has a variety of things that could lead us to stronger growth. we should be growing at over 4% for several years out of such a deep recession compared to recoveries from previous deep recessions. it's been delayed for a variety of reasons, it's probably not worth arguing about the causes here. i think some of it was policy probably more than austan would, but we can skip that. in asia i think the big issue is china, and i think they're going through a leadership transition, and whether they're going to embrace the kinds of reforms that the world bank and china development research foundation group suggested de-emphasizing state enterprises, emphasizing exports and a varian -- variety of things of that sort, land and labor and financial reforms, the pace of that is still very much up in the air. and the good news is if they have financial or real estate set of problems, they have such large foreign reserves -- 3.3 trillion -- such a high saving rate that they can, and a political system that can cover it, okay, rather than fight about it. so i think that this is somewhat revelatory but not diss positive. i think -- dispositive. i think the u.s. has put some takes, i think the fiscal cliff is one. i think getting capital is a big drag, but on the other hand you've got energy prices low, you've got -- or low relatively, especially for natural gas. you've got, um, housing having apparently hit bottom and starting to turn. so there are a variety of things. you've got a lot of money on the sidelines -- >> so you raised china, let's talk about china for a second. united states, europe, japan, latin america, asia excluding china, every one of those regions has experienced a financial and economic crisis in the last 20 years. china stands out as not having gone through such you are the policy. can they continue, can they keep that up, or is china the next country that we have to worry about for some kind of economic upheaval? start with you. >> start? well, the short term i think what's important for people to understand this year with the political transition is the chinese leadership has a real fear of inflation, and in the goes back to '89. so they were going to err on the side of being careful with, also with food prices, higher inflation. now that they are pretty much through that, what you can start to see is they've got the resources to be able to avoid a hard landing. but the critical question which michael raises and this china report raised they themselves realize they can't rely on the growth they had over the last 20 years. even though they were growing 10% a year. and what they're talking about the fact is they haven't upside taken some of -- undertaken some of these serious reforms. as the labor force shrinks, there'll be more people leave anything the next five years than coming in, they have to move up to value added chain. so i think what you see right now is a bit of a debate as people say, look, should we avoid kind of a hard landing by doing what we did in the past, credit expansion, more investments, with others who say, yeah, we can do that, but that will build the basis of future problems, so we feed to start to make some of of these structural shifts. and the way china works is kind of incremental. and i think gin ping who i've gotten to know over the years, he's a good chairman, but you've got factual powers, state-owned enterprises, so i would expect they will move in this direction, but they'll move in a somewhat gradual process. and what i share with people is that governor joe of the central bank said watch the third -- [inaudible] of the 18th party congress. third is about a year from now, and then you'll kind of see the shape of this going forward. but the bottom line is if they don't make some of these changes, they have the resources to cushion it. but, yes, the history -- there's a lot of imper fissions in that market, in pricing, credit and ores, and the history of the markets is you've got to move the reform process. but it's true -- >> high growth covers up a lot of problems. >> right. >> and when you slow -- >> right. and growth is slower. >> only grows until it stops. >> doesn't grow anywhere. >> and growth is slowing. >> you asked about financial -- look, there's economic reform and what will be the long run growth rate, and then there's the is it a property bubble, is there a financial bubble. i think one reason why they've accumulated such huge reserves is the implicit understanding that there's potentially some major capital holds in the banking system that people gotta think about. i peen, it's hard -- the governor told me that median house to loan value in china is only 50%. implication being so there won't be a big problem like there was in the u.s. i think maybe the problem with that is the debt isn't held by the homeowner, it's -- there's now a huge debt accumulated at the level of the builders. i think there's a danger. the financial space of the chinese banking system, i think there's a danger in that. i think the chinese are aware of it. you know, their trying to think it through. the second thing is you don't really know, we don't know. there's no way you can take the official data or the official accounting and determine, ah, here's what the situation is. i had a colleague. the following has changed a little, but it's still basically true. he studied chinese gdp. he said in the u.s. the data comes out a month after the quarter ends, and it's revised for up to two years. and sometimes those revisions are big. end of 2008 went to -3.5 to now -8.9. in china the data comes out the day after the quarter ends, and it's never revised. so the question is, why wait until the last day of the quarter? [laughter] >> they tell you what it was going to be. >> now they wait seven days or something like that. but i just think you learn more about the actual details of china. as you guys know from talking to people who are doing business, if you talk to fred smith and say how's the, how are the packaged shipping coming out of china, a lot of times that can more informative than -- yeah, or electricity. >> you all think china can manage this transition. the lesson of the last 20 years is there aren't soft landings. >> i'm nervous about that. [inaudible conversations] >> i think, i think that's correct. i think that there's a risk of a harder landing, and remember, slowing from 10% growth to 8% growth, you know, is equivalent of us going from 2 to 0. but going from 10 to 5 would disemploy massive amounts of people and stop the opportunity for massive migration from the countryside into the cities seeking employment and create a lot of instability in the country. so they want to keep growth up. bob's right that they have this fear of inflation for lots of reasons, historical, and they actually had serious inflation, and the inflation was in commodities that are a large part of the typical chinese person's budget, food and energy, much larger than here. so they're not happy with our extremely loose monetary policy. they feel it's exporting inpolice station to them -- inflation to them, etc. so that's an issue. but i do believe they're capable of acting quickly and filling the hole in the banks. that's a much harder thing. we didn't do that. the president had a proposal, secretary geithner in march of 2009, but it didn't go very far, so we've had a gradual recapitalization of banks. they've raised ability 300 billion in capital, although the assets have gotten more -- [inaudible] in bankings. recapitalized by fed policy basically implicitly taxing savers. >> let's talk about the fed and the world central banks for a second. central banks have pumped $11 trillion into the global economy in the last four years. if you rook at -- if you look at the balance sheet extensions. is this going to end badly, all the money central banks are pumping into the world economy? why don't we start with you, michael? you've written about -- >> i think it's a serious risk. i don't think it's imminent, but i'd make two comments about it. one is it certainly appears that these extraordinary types of quantitative easing, nontraditional measures hit diminishing returns a while ago and are doing very little good now, and the more that's done, the harder the exit strategy will be. usually the fed just has one policy lever it has to worry about, its short-term fed funds rate. often in the past raising it in time to forestall future inflation has been too late or a bubble as we had in the last decade. partly for political pressure, partly for human inability to forecast the future, now they're going to have a doubly difficult thing because they have to shrink the balance sheet as raising interest rates, so it's more complex. they have tooled to do it, raising interest on reserves at the fed, etc., but the question is whether the complexity of it all and the political pressure will wind up causing serious problems down the road. they're going on in the a situation where they're going to have to be raising interest rates and taking capital losses simultaneously. that's awkward. >> so i think you had regular breakfast for lunches with the fed chairman. do you think this central bank is up to the task of exiting? >> look, the thing is i knew chairman bernanke before when he was just an academic and all of the -- i joke he was in the monetary economics group at the npr. everybody in the monetary economics group at the nbr would wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and say, you know, why not me? and then starting sometime around 2008 -- [laughter] oh, he's messing it up. thank god it's him and not me. look, the thing is if i'd are told you 15 years ago we would be in a moment in which gdp is less than 2%, inflation, core inflation in the u.s. is well below the 2% target and unemployment has been at or around 8% for multiple years in a row, everyone would have said, well, obviously, you should be loosening monetary policy if that's the circumstance. and if you plug into the formula what should the fed funds rate be, it still says the fed funds rate should be something like meg 3%. -- -3%. so therein is why i think it's totally understandable why bear man i key and the fed are trying to do something to loosen monetary policy when interest rates are zero. it's just that it's not -- i agree with mike that the effectiveness of that was highest on the first qe and then the second and then -- >> be is this, is this a risk that the men and women in this room have to -- >> sure. >> -- think about, inflation, a collapse of the dollar? are these, where would you put that on your list of concerns? >> first, as has already been said, diminishing returns. second, you have to watch where the risks start to rise. so if you look, for example, at farmland prices in the midwest, they are above in real terms the late '70s highs. now, you don't have the same leverage, but some of the rental prices and others. so i think each market you have to watch where is the money going, where is it going in terms of perhaps some asset price inflation as opposed to goods price inflation. the third thing is to be fair to the fed, it's because other people haven't been doing their job, so that brings us right back to the discussion about the budget package and ore aspect -- other aspects. that is critical so that we can start to unwind some of this highly unusual stuff. and the last thing, to connect it back to all these international changes, the foreign minister of australia said something to me which really struck me. he said the united states is one budget deal away from restoring its global preeminence. he was talking about sending the message to the world that the united states can get it political system to act, and it can lead. because europe's not going to lead, japan's not going to lead, china is, as you described, and others are kind of waiting for the united states. so big, big stakes on the table. >> so we've been talking a lot about risks. let's bring up the next question we've got for the group. we want to ask all of you, what are the risks that you can control and you can't control, we want to talk about your biggest worry on the global landscape. this is in the realm of worries that you can't control. a u.s. fiscal cliff crack-up, a euro crisis, a china slowdown, a middle east energy crisis or some other risks. >> where's iran? >> so we'll put that in with energy crisis. >> other, huh? >> no, no, i think that belongs in number four. while our executives are giving their answers, i want to ask each of you what, what's the risk that the men and women in this room, that should be keeping them up at night right now? >> look, i think there are many ironies surrounding the fiscal cliff. the fiscal cliff, i think, in the short run is the most pressing thing. the biggest, most threatening is the euro crisis. i'm of the view ultimately either the germans will have to subsidize permanently to hold it together, or else the eurozone is probably doomed to break apart. but on the fiscal cliff, let's just get our heads around the correct numbers which is if we sign a long-term grant bargain budget deal, we're going to be doing the fiscal cliff every year for the next ten years, okay? so the thing that's happening with the fiscal cliff is made worse by the fact that it's going to happen without a lot of preparation, and it's not fully thought through if the sequester just kicks in. but we've got to do four trillion over ten years. so that's, you know, approximately 400 billion a year that -- you're like, get used to it. this is the business we've chosen, you know, as they say in the godfather movie. [laughter] the second thing to think is if you're sitting in this room, here's what i think you should be afraid of or be thinking of, and that is i didn't mean to influence the vote. [laughter] [inaudible conversations] >> in 1986, okay, we never had a tax reform that raised revenue before. and always when we've done big tax reforms, the way we do it is it comes down there's winners and losers, and so they essentially say, okay, well, look we're going to give a bunch of people a tax cut, and others are going to be held the same. in 1986 let's remember they weren't actually able to make it revenue neutral on individuals. at the last minute, they came, and they put it on corporations. and they said we'll make it a tax cut, but corporations will have their taxes go up. there is a danger that happens again, that they go into it and say, well, we want to broaden the base, where are we going to get the money? let's go try and stick t on corporations, and i think -- >> alan's got a question. >> we have one question that's comes in. is a $4 trillion grand bargain large enough given the continuing growth of the debt, and how worried are you about interest rates impacting on the future -- >> it's step one where fiscal cliff is sort of one a and the $4 trillion people are talking about if it's done properly would actually be quite expansionary, in my view, including helpful short term as long as there's not a big front loading of tax increases. especially tax increase, any tax increase. and spending cuts. i think all the data suggests that. i would say on, is it a large enough, if it starts to include a serious entitlement reform that grow in the second and third decade, it's a very good down payment. but there is a risk that interest rates will rise for a variety of reasons, inflation expectations taking hold in two or three years, whatever happens to be. i'd say that the single best thing we could do is do a real serious debt reduction deal. the studies aye done and i've studied, the estimates i've made is we stay on the current debt path as predicted in the president's budget or the cbo. we could wind up bringing growth virtually to a halt in a generation using higher debt ratios from expected higher taxes and financial instability, etc., on growth say from the imf. and that the political pain of the debt reduction would be offset by a large economic gain in higher standards of living and can higher gdp per capita down the road. the problem is it doesn't show up in the short term, and it's politically painful. again, republicans aren't going to become tax collectors and shouldn't for an ever-growing welfare state. but there is a tax reform and a grand bargain that would include some revenues from base broadening and hopefully, also, from a comprehensive tax reform that would generate some extra growth that would be sufficient to perhaps get democrats to agree to serious entitlement reform. >> i'm sorry, did you want to add to that, bob? >> i was just going to say, i would like to flip this for the ceos. i think there's actually an opportunity here. because normally congress' preference is to maintain the status quo through inaction. what the fiscal cliff -- fiscal cliff will require some sort of action. it won't solve the problem, but the question is, how does it set up a potential solution. .. and remember, this is where none of you really understand how washington talks about tax. know was talking about a cut. they're talking about a reduced rate of growth. it's not the way you cut. where the republicans get attacked by people is to say oh, you want big cuts. all the one is a slower rate of increase. if it's done anyway that doesn't have disciplines or doesn't change the law, republicans will feel they have been taken to the cleaners again. i honestly think you can get a deal here, this comes back to trigger locks point. in american political system, there's interest in the senate, frankly i think jon boehner is serious, i think cantor, but it won't work as the president doesn't lead. the president has to kind of set the course in the system. you saw that in the '80s in any piece of legislation that i was part. now be the big question whether this president steps up and leads. >> what i find so interesting is on the one hand, you use the word opportunity. we see ceos in this room are saying they are investing and hiring and the united states, but they are also most worried, remarkably more worried in europe and some of these other problems we talk about, about speed what does that tell you? >> it's totally consistent. >> this is more imminent and that's probably why. >> it tells me there's an opportunity here but -- >> we are in trouble. >> i'm telling you, the primary barrier to getting a grand bargain has been an opposition to any revenues in the deal. in the negotiations last summer. the reason why there aren't specific papers that you can read and say, what was the deal, is precisely because things started showing up in bob woodward's book or the "washington post." each side feels they don't want to write on a piece of paper, i offer you a, you offer me be. so the whole thing is kind of in this shakespearean language. one might consider if a plan but it was totally understood what the format -- >> people have been doing deals with the congress and executive for 245 years. people figure that have to do. the starting point is i wouldn't put the president sitting at the table with all these guys diminishing his valley. so, you know, that's not exactly the way ronald reagan did. >> get your treasury secretary, get them up discussing the details now, not go out talking to the press. >> look, the deal of last summer did not take place in the press. it was a six week extended the duration, which they got 85% of the way he would deal. and the format of the deal -- >> you've got to get 100% to close at. >> everyone understands that there wasn't a deal. the question is, if there's going to be a deal now, will it look like the one that almost was last summer? and i think it probably will. and the framework on that deal wasn't crazy. it was basically 1 trillion on entitlements, 1 trillion on discretionary, 1 trillion on revenues, 1 trillion -- that's approximate what it is. there was still argument over should 1 trillion of revenue just come from high income people, should it be smaller, bigger? should the indictment, social security or medicare? all of that's important but that's basically what the deal will be. you should have in your mind it is going to be a grand bargain that's what is going to look like. it's going to be that. >> will not get that result here today. you have another question? >> isn't corporate tax rates, lower rates in a territorial system a way to stimulate economic growth? >> absolutely. a huge problem. we talked last night about differences from earlier periods, a big part of it is our tax return or higher than they were then. and our corporate tax rate has gotten much further out of line. not as far them many other countries have reduced their corporate tax or there are statutory rate is 50% higher than the oecd average. that's a big problem. all of you out there, talking about the fiscal cliff, that's fine whether you're going to slow plans down or not but if you think about a major, bold new investment program going into a new market, expanding a new technology center, if you're bored about the corporate tax rates going to be when that is generating cash and three, five, seven, nine years. the best thing we can do is to get something that created some lower rates and expectations that they would be giant tax increases later. >> i agree with that and i agree we should do this. but, you know, we have the highest statutory rape and went no higher than average effective rates. because we have the narrowest base of all corporate income in the world. one of the reasons we have that system is because people like us argued for many years that the more efficient thing, the better way to encourage investment was not to cut the corporate rate, it was to have massively accelerated depreciation, expensing of investment, focus on investment incentives rather than cutting the rate overall. i think the intuition of most economists is changing, but the way we're going to cut the rate is not by closing loopholes. it's going to come on a very painful expansions of the base, like getting rid of accelerated depreciation and things which have a valley. i think -- >> is that going to happen? >> i don't know. it should because that's one part of tax reform you could be revenue neutral in pretty straightforward way. but i'm afraid they are going, any effort to lower top marginal rates on individual side in a combat to corporations and say, they can't do it spent it would be much better to integrate the corporate personal tax for lots of reasons, for efficiency reasons, number one. number two, we did also by the end of this nonsense warren buffett pays a higher tax rate than a secretary because he's not counting the tax -- >> you can do that in about five years. >> that's a difficult thing. but we should be adding towards that as ago. >> is a going over the fiscal cliff, which 76 or seven of people are worried about, just the equivalent of a grand bargain? since we wind up with higher taxes and lower spending. >> is different only in thatit is only when you. a grand bargain is going to do that for 10 years, but i think that's -- >> is not sustainable. you have the alternative. there's a lot of details in this, including the alternative minimum tax. if you look at what the alternative minimum tax, they tend to be boosted. if you have a lot of state and local income tax, a lot of children, it's not going to be politically state -- sustainable. it might be a negotiating step to achieve it, and the defense cuts are also not going to be sustainable. >> you all agree that the fiscal cliff and into his budget album is the risk the men, women industry should be focusing on? we talked about other ones. what's the one that should really be keeping them up at night? >> well, i'd go back to this to give secretary geithner here, so we were talking about this. and often has explain what he thinks is the past do. i would ask secretary guyton what's different that's going to make a deal this time, and how are you going to use the fiscal cliff? if the answer is just we have a mandate to raise revenues, i don't think that's going to be enough. so ask them. he's close to the president on the issue. i would flip it, but i'm sort of an optimist to i think you can make this into an opportunity to address some the things we are talking about in 2013. if you keep the pressure on with the types of things as like a simpson-bowles kind of sort of fallback or requirement, but i would add one last thing that has been part of the debate. this audience has got to drive. u.s. needs a complimentary international growth initiative. we are just a country. look at where all the growth is coming from. so whether it's the types of things with the transatlantic, whether it's making the trans-pacific partnership real because right now it's more rhetorical, there's something she could with middle income countries with some of their structural growth agenda. there's things on the deployment side you could do for agriculture and others that the president is doing. we need an international problem and. we can't just make this an isolationist fix. >> we have about two minutes left. >> another question, how about a jobs program, get people out, collect tax money, reduce welfare cause, get people used to working again and spending 10 spent jobs have grown at about 20% of the pace of recovery from deep recessions where the jobs crisis. it's primarily because of the growth shortfall. we need economy to grow more strongly. most of the country things we've been talking about, a sensible fiscal consolidation would be good now, people would understand their tax rates are not going to go up a let down the road. corporations could begin to plan some of that uncertainty would be removed and they have some notion of what the taxes are going to paint when an chit investment start to pay off. i think there's a lot they can be done along those lines. >> if you look at the entitlement programs this war is not disconnected. was happening in europe is people realize if you have endless unemployment insurance and people don't end up hustling for a job. go look at what the social security disability payment increases are. some of it's been in your paper. the entitlements reform is partly, create the right incentives for people to work. >> a question here. >> i am now confused. i don't know if someone wants to own up to this question. i am now confused, 73%, i think it was 76%, of us are worried about the fiscal cliff which would cause a recession, yet not one of his forecasts say recession. what do you make of that? >> jamaica same thing. most business people do talk to, and and you may think do not think we will go off the fiscal cliff, as we run up to the election -- >> but you all say we are. >> they are not so stupid that they were let this happen. but look, they are. [laughter] they could easily be that stupid. and so i think in business, a lot like it will come to the last minute, but it won't happen. it will be fine. >> i think there's something you really have to understand is that both because the political system is messy and because the country's interest are deeply divided between people are collecting of people who are paying between urban and rural, between ideologically and somewhat, there isn't a coherent sense of an overall strategy that where we want to go, where we want to wind up, do we want to end up with a european social welfare state something like we were before the crisis? this big disagreements about that, and this big disagreements about how to get from here today. this notion of what to do in the short run to do with fiscal policies intimately tied up with big, big spreads between republicans and democrats to oversimplifying their differences in each party. on taxes and spending and size of government, the nature of the programs and what's important. even in the republican party their three types of conservatives. tax cutters, budget balances and spending limited. so it's kind of strange. but i think an important you understand that he will feel pressure. i think bob is right, it's not sustainable because the amt and other things but there's a good chance that whatever they do in a lame duck will be very modest and far from -- >> we have 45 seconds let's see each will have about nine seconds by the time i'm done talking to answer this question. can the united states economy go back to being an economy that grows 3% a year? >> definitely come and that's where, where you've got this clip was if you look at this energy store, if you look at the rise in wages in china so that now you actually have some opportunities in north america, and by the way, we should think about that as a base economically along with candidate, if you look at the -- >> united states. >> huge potential but we got to get the fundamentals right. >> yes, and if you end of the housing recession and even have modest construction we would already be there. >> yes, if central policies are followed, and that implies getting spending under control, entitlement reform. not only not letting tax rates go up but reforming taxes on a broader base. if we don't, the debt implies a tax rates are going to be for the broad working class, 70% you pay for all this spending. so it's hard to imagine a robust dynamic growing economy were a majority of the working population is a minority partner in their own labor. >> we are well over our time. everybody join me in thanking this panel. 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many. there is the main thing. other artists here. what cheating sunday hundred and twenty six films from seventy six countries to make his and technicians are hosting a series of classic classes. it said being in macon ga and ask that it takes is touting the fact that jerry the radio or up and here. boss he owns an hour. i should said you can't have the best of cash in hand. until today. a vote of these alternate. it's been the next day because it's fun and iginla has cool safari in africa eighty minute presentation. that's the audience asking for more to him after he gets northeast unseen since the highlight of the event with nineteen films included in the package. japan is chosen as the focus country the segment dedicated to simply sit and spin the closing film of the test which was none too this month and the mend and a long walk to the jim crow came the iconic south african leaders like. garden centers in the real thing going with me and then fall by friday often known in the making of the department said. the site on its own packing of wind speed of seventy five miles of low is expected to cross on the conditions close to this it's often a note on my teapot dome. mass indoctrination is on the ria middle of the awesome when told that the mistakes which i expected to be the bull escaped. the southern cities or states with the incessant rains and winds. i'm walking my dog. a little with his second hundred in the ap india's eastern coast off the side and they did the cover and although i'm living with a shot last month i need the traditional mediums and that the state that gets killed. the wood destroying property and infrastructure worth billions when that ended with god that they did it again. did he go on happening. taking the sox this one much i owe it to an inch of mind the sun revealed that only sings on the day this week and get readyelle the art. if you name it is not only successfully getting set to tackle it at the box office. but that it acted with the to be in that state it again. sunday gill who was last seen in this family outing of the party of the one i do it early this year said in mumbai that she was still in the offing would be of cycling. given that the gardac- something. it's true the system. with the unit. many be. he said come on the date it is still worrying about to pull them and takes my views on this team. they got the costume together in the hdb cabinet in the game. the needs of the catalans she got the not until the music composers and saying this or that began at midnight on enjoying it. his second match at the home office with the other week i did on cardstock and go from glee tdp i'd be excited. hm i was steamed up the deal would cost to the hyatt in sussex is to say no one is perfect the big bed and then his favourite act it is said and some cd's that i can see that pakistani go to bed i was sick. the city subsidized was the hardest to keep it going to stick them to the richmond cookbook our little group the essence of the treaty is just a li'l for that to a listed entity this one is tea and simply naive the bottom the gnome on low income and wealth. a good idea died as he was a flight to corruption and injustice. the house to see miss penny and is in its detection system. sometimes the cost cuts to human and inhuman. does he. you have to say one. it was installed the show this evening but before we conclude that the authorities wanted. it's a new list of state. but as with the process goes on. but in a spot in the navy was the site in northwest arkansas. i knew as east and goes places cos i don't care additionally its use in town tomorrow. i know. a staff has always been about reviewing the region's greatest valley was like gt h the cradle of humanity. john bolton is like this one the men enjoy greater incentive to get rearranged geology top of the flora and fauna every few hundred units. the new and rejuvenation occurred again in east africa this time through technology. some say an internet revolution is underway in africa as its coal is a broadband internet than centered on kenya. i know. ms joke three places but the stuff because i found them. it's indian ocean city of mombasa. his links to the various submarine internet cables that connect africa europe and asia the johannesburg based development bank of southern africa specializes in financing africa's information communications technology sector. memphis old as the ict sector the cables and does dishes and devices that connect people to the internet and tv that the us we are. bob's experience that admission that the next six. if one looks at the underwater sea cables and seek on wanting to use the cable east coast of africa. and the envisaged that includes mental cable the opportunities that exist for that occasional of ict products the bed as it is all off the set of gorgeous the cables and the andean set to rights. makes me afraid we think that's in the next two years the african continent will change. change is already underway in kenya where it tries to establish the government is moving whole sectors of national administration online the us peers. all this little ball on the investment in the new government but that was going on in prospect. we have up a video box in front of them well. we didn't ever do without what he would n comment on the one which is not a total confusion. it's a muscle that in this. then we have done. i must buy bubble tea which links to this form of a calm peace. it's just the beginning. kenyans could soon skip a whole generation of standing in line filling in forms and mailing in checks. kenya is aiming to kill them one mobile phone what's weird is doing well he said. they sold at a distance with the makeup. and the muscle to stick with stuffed with it. we want the kitchen's moresby from when the mall buying for the course teaches you to access the test will come away get to sport within the comp. as governments use the continent's whitening internet access to increase efficiency. so does comments which has tossed forces studying pocahontas roll bands to business how do we promised the crisis using it using accidentally phones we have and clean this up dead in this program transfers are next to the will of its well established in east africa is pitching in. it's been such is providing up to date global real time. this crisis should be shown. and then today so that they are standing up and it's daily basis. development experts say it's well worth african countries interesting in broadband infrastructure as a top priority. even at the fruits of railways and due to the streets. that's because information communications technology ict will ultimately allah and enable the other investments one of those ports and rail systems the buildings to be the official ict infrastructure so touching he he he the neighboring countries to ict has other sectors. it was the twenty oh six and has been on crutches with such discussion. a simple kinda been brutal it's fifty five. i think need to move with the bill and more. but you can get to visit mumbai with a deceitful a week or so. easy of use to promote this and can induce me. that entice you to use it at the same time you can do better to own when you open it is the atmosphere to italian drama crimes nothing and no one are what or who the scene. not distinguished looking on the way. now police officers not only yours. my children or even centuries. eleven it's the other. mom don't answer that. determined to see the need for sunsets its inspector frank the stunningly was laid back manner belies his drive to get the truth. ay ay ay ay ay ay. the is the role as a fast salome is that. the chain the team. the team this week as a lucas and earnings. it's too soon. mary's ability to uncover the truth may be his greatest strength. it also gets them in constant conflict with his superiors sydney nsw women also don't like the real thing. it is something that is what got them into the tickets are one of the final two commandments so relieved. among the multitudes. the canaries for the school called karma the new issue. the christian relief only to him. mason wanted the name of the stall most of the time he maintains an impasse and exterior which masks ever present grief over the death of his wife were having a stunningly good. kendra is even prettier. as for corso when the testimony of the mountains. the series this into question. i am two heat. i'm listening. do woohoo who has a huge need the cake. six. the eight zero she would see it. he's not comfortable with other people's expressions of feeling. which leads to what may be one of the italian television's most genuinely awkward moments the kid. i saw one of them. fall in crime stunned and enthusiastic television audience in italy. we ran for three seasons between two thousand five and two thousand ninety eight the story is based on the novels of malaria for a seat which became popular for their sense of history and their exploration of the aisle causes of crime only two of his novels have been translated into english and the book serve as a departure point for the series episodes rather than providing specific storyline. mary is played by a local bar for us he who brings a depth to his trail of a complicated man. in addition to his acting career barbara. he is a well known figure in italy because of his political involvement having served as a member of parliament since two thousand eight he became famous in nineteen eighty three his association with the notorious horror film cannibal holocaust. a film so unrealistic its director was arrested on murder charges barbara. he was one of four actors killed in the film who sign contracts requiring them to stay out of all media for year. in order to fuel rumors that the film was an actual snuff movie. all the contracts were canceled and the actors appeared on a tv show where the charges against the filmmaker drop and. the issue. human skin the love interest in fighting crime displayed by russian actress natasha stott can you tell who began her acting career after winning the look of the year contest in russia in nineteen ninety one. she then traveled to italy and began a career in films and as a popular tv host. before stephanie who became famous as the model and actress. she earned an undergraduate degree in moscow study metal engineering. stir until smooth. status the students i salute you can see it. i know. main character in the series is the river hull it shakes alinsky the climate and the lives of people who live on it stinks both rich and four. is anyone who tries to look beneath the surface of things unseen. power to set its history can never be fully understood. mueller says people also are. and it also hides their seats. secrets that one station are just covered by people like signposts neri who have eyes to see. ay ay ay ay ay. i think what you say balanced especially as best they were working on with the fact that i've run a charity for disabled and the refugee children our parents. mason's kids. i studied with kids and the year two thousand and one prior to september eleven on because i was watching the news knows this is bombing in sydney. and i just like that and ias like wow we are creating an entire generation disabled people that no one knows what to do i felt the need to go back there in tucson. when i first went to work with the kids i had no idea why. i didn't. ii top twenty of the haitian refugee camp knew no one knew nothing and was just like ok it's cabbage onion and do that. to those of you who have never been to a refugee camps is so porous that riding swimming attend this long to write down who is and kids. millions and millions of foreign hungry kids and i was going to be their ultra clean and shoes and glasses and clothes and all the while protecting myself the most gorgeous or he too has been by the way we can. yet they are disgusting and rife with disease. the first time i ever walked into an orphan is this thing ran up to me with a fragile growing and it's on next day i wake up. knowing my eye. i go out to get some edits and when at that exact moment i can. and tied to the back of the country. my kidnappers. the women of the cave. they have decided i need an extreme make over refugee detention. they stripped me down and start weekly. straighten my hair with an actual fire. and then they put me in six inch heels and marched me through the canyon. these people took care of me and i had no choice but to keep taking care of that. i still have no not that i still hate kids. i have seven hundred and thirty two killed the lower animals that call my own. i loved him many of them of us understand how god into the meat section as for disabled some of these people need to head to chat. so i sigh as posted on this program that focuses on getting kids into college getting kids to study getting kids to graduate getting the kids of lost both their parents have someone over their head saying ok you hav on education scholarships. and i feel like it may soon skip that step it's a. all welcome to watch it all started out on the up coming up on us and afghanistan looks like after western troops to pull out as elders in kabul votes he played fifteen thousand years the troops down another decade. because i just went to the case of problems we are one year. french forces there pulls out the taliban are in bold with government
engineer gets no business dictating the dots the nation's banking ghost hunting for bargains campaign some books or some other doctor but what about althought all the details of the security pact between about some of the us we signed only up to presidential elections due next april. ugh i'm humming the price of refined in the mountain made of the niger delta summary of some two thousand five hundred by the end of this political leaders from across the bow to stop him as a surprise to us because insisting that the deal he signed before the sun about the fact that some of the school of the us military presence in the book on concrete for when it dawned on monday night for me to forces with the fourteen doesn't cause i was not seen as too keen to get medication from the kentucky to jeddah for the securities backed by citing some benefits dubbed unbeatable spectacle of the us saying there was that a cross between the two nations is there to drum up more opposite than connections to the security agreement would be flooded the day. the engine could be that many pockets on the city isn't fighting for the protest marches held by sunni muslims defend deficit it invited the kids over a dozen people in the last week to mark to market slump to go to mosque in the country's two most touching the morning do this to both squads before succeeding touches enveloping the best light. the dogs to disjointed scenes demonic action. the bbc's tv the advent of that. medvedev said that the dead bodies either said. the bottom of the bed head to this admission. sadly she died i said a ribbon that i've read the article to add to that the budget goals and sat on the hook. because with instruments and speeches and shia a buddy. these dogmas from the vet last effort to spruce it up. get it. similar protests were hidden says the bobbin went to the capital of seoul posting bulletins and two. addressing the students sought to limit with a slogan from a seminary was she out what they can be up to the position was one of the loop in the city last week. oh and did she does hold some insanity doing it i also got to political bombshell to the neighboring opens up. the classes is to get enveloped in the us is home to the park cons of the army since the two of the cities of punjab province to move on with the five people were injured when some nice targeted shiites. a mob led by the baron solutions are excited though. but don't go shia mosque and just begun the violence and allotments in oct i don't often see people including two policemen on monday. she can do is to profess a mistrial over sean dalton has gone on tuesday. but back so she doesn't still eats in the minority community peaks of the auction opposition doing more of them on the spot. more than eight hundred shiites have been killed in targeted attacks in the country's into both incidents including a book for hundreds of steel to go through the use of the new abuse human rights watch in november to be. it was all the popular upper st on corruption in high places from it said in the middle of a stalled on friday. all he does however said it was a conspiracy to my mind the new body. and even taking on the high ninety in indian politics. dates for these had given the fact that the new home on twenty carries in indian politics. but if this thing party found itself on the back foot by casey evening when in front of entrusting to collect the next decade and some candidates fielded by hopping again the provincial assembly elections. and he can take money without proper receipts and two favorites in the tent up back to this same to the gills with it was doctored. nasa news portal for the aged pension the osaka continue th committal proceedings against the media outlet to get out on a woman on the inside is it that the yemeni be the norm. but the body like the mighty ontology not be odds on sunday but you know picking up. easily the money by the mucus like the us the wind the nazis of the dynamite daddy. my sock it to shun bush anti islam in the pee when they get impatient likes to bite them their money i've been testing its popular support but fielding candidates in all seventy constituencies and tn ascend a fourth daily interactions. the party which was fashioned out of the papas and crafts movement had exploited the icing anger over corruption in this government has been baffling one on etsy after another many anti corruption activists and said to be un happy actively defend senate today nick and teens have been debated throughout the trip to the teens. sure chaos needed focus on the position of the c i a prime numbers all be gone within a minute that god has come about. in both the mother by the private administration. the campaign launched by one who came that the sun dawned up and up to feed the conduct of this debate at this private clinic in two thousand and seven the complaint alleged up to feed you with all the sudden and he'd acted lawfully the bottom of my edition position last being sentenced for that but importantly than that the reason is that the dog in the scallop scissors. a judicial officer to overcome this order of the swiss chemist in a statement exposure has come about the bombing last month lawmakers are pushing for the duties of the good doctor for months now. it was me kind of got into a compromise solution on the mission's main opposition party states nationwide protests and fighting going on in the upcoming polls the head under the supervision of a skeptic of government. the aviation accident spot cod and peaceful it is the answer from the scene. last month the company to receive the green foods. the ap and it's nice that you don't find the station casinos like to join the tens of minutes the head of. day the head he then said that. trust is primarily driven by the defeat in the hope filled the abc's former ambassador to the us colonial of the second half though. they represent two skeins all on identity finding. it's clean the bottom of the cia identity is me and i don't cool on a limb this was the cause. so i demand among them is that he said. so the school. call my own fault the essence of what i didn't eat again. on the lawn me that this is the continent's side of the two and perhaps the bnp represents the goodies inside of me. dh did what it takes off bnp and its the ice cap in bondi beach cards. you know shutdowns and white insides have afflicted the twinkie to be the villain of the meat export industry. then i fly off the country a i don't want to sound new state station has been struck down by the supreme court in august as the feuding practice. the constant still in the dt blogs again towards the beach said. what is important now is to find or do we. two of the debt or to create an environment where both can trust each other and call for weeks and my india that the people in love with this one if the fee that could of connections. it all h had to leave the kid is consistent the day in may twenty eleven the fight game and had denied it. among the till. the bn political position and i however has denied that it worried him on flaky a deacon at the station so i don't have it back you would speed of thirty five minus four romp made landfall in india's eastern coast around two pm local time friday. the site on and on the petition is set mostly but not nearly to some demise from fermented capital high above. it's nice to post this pic some of the state. who can look good in separate incidents minutes living in your mind as having watched the shadows and hired on the twenty first of august by the city of mysore and then is this what awesome song that played with some nice goals know about the inward got the scooter i'd stop at good will that many people and from the four states. with the british me ballet is attracting tourists from across the globe the picture does look at rsc has sucked into his football defender. wouldn't you has cost the scoop on the meadows phoenix. the sight of two not three minutes for mondays as mesmerized as the toes to the provincial capital of jammu and kashmir kudos from a spot of stupid and in part an awful pinkish me to enjoy the autumn season which marks the onset of ncos in the modern state. strange enough the mumbai mile back to macy's is an outfit that looked good changeup and seized four pieces and putting in the deadly disease than men still prefer to make things a little different in neighboring much for the rich vocals and drums thought i would copy of all of the seventh book in with the following reports that the region received snow for good. i notice on msn at the icky of the senate but has now been eyeing on. what did this tea is on the opposite. and he took on sale so something could be a copy. a noble title. let's get this done by the monotony the fever flu this traditional foods from the guys who would leave us with the sudden rush of the latest west of the credence to the global kick and move on the critical temperature dipping. but the officials have said mauresmo full of expected in the days ahead. that's a crock but what happens with it all the pomp that the book as well the season's most of it that bad eggs hit the screens this weekend granted i'm gonna die. i'm not a bun. i love i just need to rest up before you head north and south. but typically pdp i'd be what it would do stupid stuff all the great divide. one of the islamists hate it takes time to study study. the view in mumbai on thursday. we choose to cut until it dried it might make you lazy acting non con was accompanied by wife of one pick up the food was actually occasionally best. knitted in the top eight but it was attainable once that the media. music composers not distortion and students of the month the act is so futility. the shock of food so not a baby and feeding me at the top of the yucatan for defense each of the album was done especially so in the band cost a bomb that explodes cafe was kidding. ate some awesome day and adding a man and all i think that's easy you know that music composers free shot she could look forward to them for a bumper pay. determined to go. and though it's a notice about that either the power. they either knew i would have teamed up with tv guide me after the twenty two and then he may want you to read on. it is out to produce enough still he offered guy who suffers from a cd that needs to leave his cell. then i don't think that is different from what's not to the eastern city of krakow by stone with its own and that it's the force said it was a fine fifth grade. i'm not any time. working. johnny just a little to get to the aquatics and gone and its own solution work that god was getting out the pizza with fifty three. this has now been blocked from tyranny to the hint and go to the stupid cow. although he denies it has been a hit and i keep the bills worth it to the beach. so starstruck of the week and a funky and is in kentucky. tv this evening before we conclude that all students once again. some allege that the standing against other business that day and at times. allegations that it gives the falklands campaign. some books for some odd doctor but what about. on tonight's edition which is a diamond's be a great weekend i'm not. east africa has always been about refuel the region's greatest valley was like gt h the cradle of humanity. john bolton is like this one the men in my crate and central kenya. rearrange geology top of the flora and fauna every few hundred units the new and rejuvenation are occurring again in east africa this time through technology. some say the internet revolution is underway in africa as its coal is a broadband internet than centered on kenya. i know. ms joke three places but the stuff because i found them. it's indian ocean city of mombasa is linked to the various submarine internet cables that connect africa europe and asia. but based development bank of southern africa specializes in financing africa's information communications technology sector. memphis old as the ict sector the cables and does dishes and devices that connect people to the internet and tv that the us we are out of box experience that admission that the next six. one looks at the underwater sea cables sequel money to use the cable east coast of africa. and the envisaged the continental cable. she makes is that exists for that occasional of ict products the bed as it is also the set of gorgeous the cables and the auntie and set to rights arguments and if they meet the cats in the next two years the african continent will change. change is already underway in kenya where it tries to establish the government is moving whole sectors of national administration online the pasta is called the hobo opal investment in the new government but that was going on in prospect. we have up a video box in front of a mile we didn't ever do without working with local men for men one with his stuff was moved to philly. scott looks older than this. then we have done. i must buy bubble tea which links to this form of a calm peace. it's just the beginning. kenyans could soon skip a whole generation of standing in line filling in forms and mailing in checks. kenya is aiming to kill them one mobile phone what's weird is doing well he said to the states or that the distance with the makeup. and the muscle to stick with stuffed with grapes. we want the kitchen's moresby from when the mall buying for the course teaches you to accept that this will have to wait yet to support within the comp. as governments use the continent's whitening internet access to increase efficiency. so does comments which has tossed forces studying pocahontas girl bands to business how do we promised the crisis using it using asp internet and phones. we have the thing except that in this program transfers are next to the will of its well established in east africa's fishing venue. it's been such is providing up to date global real time. this crisis should be shown. and then today so that they understand them better in its daily basis. development experts say it's well worth african countries investing in broadband infrastructure as a top priority. even at the fruits of railways and due to the streets. that's because information communications technology ict will ultimately allah and enable the other investments one of those ports and rail systems the buildings to be the official ict infrastructure so touching hee hee hee emitting countries to ict has other sectors. it was in twenty oh six and has been on crutches with such interesting. a simple kinda been brutal it's fifty five. i think the men who go door to more but you can get significant number of fixes. a week or so easy of use to promote this infinity is he. that invites you to use it at the same time you can do better to own when you open. it is the atmosphere to tell you the drama crimes. nothing and no one are what or who have received. not distinguished looking on the way. now police officers not only yours. my children or even old fisherman the button. the new superman film. mom don't answer that determined to see the need for sucess is inspector frank the stunningly was laid back manner belies his drive to get the truth. ay ay ay ay ay the is the role as a fast salome is that. and it stayed. the team. the tunis with casa lucas and earnings it's too soon. mary's ability to uncover the truth may be his greatest strength it also gets him in constant conflict with his superiors sydney nsw woman of some of my concrete opener. it is something that it didn't work properly the tickets are one of the final two commandments so relieved. scott monument in the sky. it's the commemoration of the school to call come up the new issue. the christian relief only to him. mason wanted the name of the stall most of the time he maintains an impasse and exterior which masks the ever present grief over the death of his wife were having a stunningly good. kendra and her team preview. as for corso. when is the money under the posts. the series this into question. i am two heat. last night do. i drew you to me. it is. what do i see it. he's not comfortable with other people's expressions of feeling. which leads to what may be one of the towering television's most genuinely awkward moments the day. i saw one of them. fall in crime stunned and enthusiastic television audience in italy. we ran for three seasons between two thousand five and two thousand ninety eight the story is based on the novels of malaria for a c which became popular for their sense of history and their exploration of the aisle causes of crime only two of his novels have been translated into english and the books serve as a departure point for the series episodes rather than providing specific storyline. mary is played by a local bar for us he who brings a depth to his trail of a complicated man. in addition to his acting career barbara. he is a well known figure in italy because of his political involvement having served as a member of parliament since two thousand eight he became famous in nineteen eighty through his association with the notorious horror film cannibal holocaust. a film so unrealistic its director was arrested on murder charges barbara. he was one of four actors killed in the film who sign contracts requiring them to stay out of all media for year. in order to fuel rumors that the film was an actual snuff movie. all the contracts were canceled any actors appeared on a tv show where the charges against the filmmaker drop and. chatted with me. human skin. the love interest in fighting crime displayed by russian actress natasha stott can you tell who began her acting career after winning the look of the year contest in russia in nineteen ninety one. she then traveled to italy and began a career in films and as a popular tv host. before stephanie who became famous as the model and actress. she earned an undergraduate degree in moscow studying metal engineering. stir until smooth. stacey news. when he sleeps. i salute you can see it. i know. main character in the series is the river hull it shakes alinsky the climate in the lives of people who live on it stinks both rich and four. is anyone who tries to look beneath the surface of things unseen. power to set its history can never be fully understood. new issues to people far. and it also hides her sleep. secrets that one nation are just covered by people like franco son gary who have eyes to see. ay ay ay ay ay. it was. low. it is low. it is. low. it is. each.l welcome to watching us and jumped on the doctoring of the world this week. fifty years after the cessation of president kennedy. why does that fateful day in dallas still resonate will ask our friday panel of journalists what it means for those whoemes and bork also kind of football results change the fortunes of the nation sociologists have gone from lamenting france's first leg loss
>> quote him as saying he is still considers himself to be the dun's leader. reported her in the russia where the governor is said to be ensuring his safety. he is expected to hold a news conference tomorrow. massed gunman seized government buildings. they declared their the allegiance to russia and flew that nation's flag over the parliament. following the day's -- and you don't think this is fascinating. the group we have known as the opposition are now taking control. it is difficult to keep up, that is where we have defined the p osix. and now there's a new government that this opposition backs. a few hundred miles south of here, about 600 miles or 700 miles south, and as you just said, there is a new opposition to this government, that's right behind me, this is a place that has always had separatist tendencies. since the ukraine was born out of the soviet union, it has never wanted to be part of an independent ukraine and so therefore it isn't that big of the a surprise that he saw the russian flag flying over the local government building. but it is a huge concern. not only for the people here that say it is a threat to the unity, but also to the international community. everybody came down we need to be able to focus, and everybody needs to calm down. or lead to miscall cuelation, during a very delicate time. tony that's what the 6 doesn't want. the huge problems in this country, and a huge economic crisis this dun runs out of money in about two or three months. >> nick, i am curious as to what the new government still can do with what is developing on peninsula? >> it is very separate. against people to the west, all of whom look towards europe, today the acting president, and he is the only acting president, he says they would send in the military, to oust them, that has not happened and it's not clear really how much say that this government will have. really they are being run by the people behind me. the people in the square are very much in control. don't act like the old leaders will throw you out, so that fear among the new leadership is very much there. ex-freely difficult to find those pro russians back. despite warnings from nat oand the united states, and other major western powers russia is getting involved increasingly. ukraine for example is wondering about russia's military capabilities. vladimir putin put two of the four military drinks on high alert, land, sea, and air power being tested for readiness. moscow insists the war gains aren't connected to events in ukraine, net toe against escalation. i urge them to continue this efforts to establish this prospect. >> on the streets there was concern about the heightens tensions. with ethnic russians particularly those in premier. how exactly, i have seen that political leaders should decide, and they shouldn't let fascism take over. it is just a nightmare. >> on one hand they are our brothers from the other hand it will cause an international conflict, it is important to keep the interstory, but we can't leave our friends in trouble. >> where is the man that still called himself rightful presidents. a russian newspaper claimed that he was spotted here and it is rander great hotel earlier in the week. it is fittingly known as the hotel. now, the establishment management has denied that he has been there recently. he was moved on now. >> maybe here the village comes on the outskirts of the capitol. but if there was any doubt that he is in russia, when the state news agency announced that he is to give a press conference in the southern city. and 13 gmt on friday. urged him not to interfere in ukraine. it is important no they keep the work, the world will be watching. >> secretary of state john kerry spoke and urged russia to work with u. is it's allies. they also addressed ukraine tonight. is following a development in washington for us, and mike, what is this delicate balance that the white house is attempting to strike here with russia. >> and secretary of state john kerry today, sovereignty in the white house as the third one. transparentsy, they want transparency on the part of russia, as it engages in some military man moves that sergei says were previously planned. but they are right on the border that has raised alarms here for the second consecutive day. we have heard secretary the kerry come right out and warn russia as did jay carney here in the white house earlier today about the sovereignty. for the days the president and on down, that somehow this is a cold war redo. in russia, but yet very close to ukraine. secretary kerry had a photo opportunity, spoke with the press, across town at the state department, just a couple of hours ago, here is what he had to stay. >> foreign minister relayed to me correctly from president putin a reaffirmation of the conversation that president putin had over the weekend. and he stated that both the military exercise which has been conducted is not related to the ukraine, and was previously scheduled. >> one other interesting shift of the posture here, you know vice president biden we were told spoke with the president, the former president, apparently, of ukraine some nine times over the course of the crisis. yanukovych has advocated his responsibilities. they are talking about the may 25th elections. al jazeera english journalists. have been held for 61 days now. andner accused of having links to a terrorist organization that is spreading false news. people putting down their cameras in solidarity with their staff. and in germany, our colleagues in berlin, came out to demand the. >> thats be dropped. abdullah al shammy works for al jazeera's arabic channel. he has been on a hunger strike for more than a month now. journalists from around the world are asking the egyptian government to release our staff. maria has more on this. >> your honor lists are using the #free a.j. staff. and take a look at this map, it shows you from it is trending all over the world. in australia, and asia, africa, europe, south america, north america. look at images, they are journalists and groups that have been sending out these empages of themselves, holding the sign saying free a.j. staff. some of them have duct tape on their mouths, more than 30,000 tweets have been sent out today alone with this #, and some of those include our own knicks chef rine, he is in kiev. he writes enough is enough, time for egypt to release journalists jailed for doing their job. also released this image, and also you have media such as huffington post,s in their image that they have on the huff postmedia website. and you have who this month did a segment holding up this the free a.j. staff sign as welt. and this is dave he is from the nation, he's got his glove the nation and sports editor, and the glove says free a.j. staff. and this is the press core, as well. that they have joined in solidarity, is our own news in doha. >> that's right, tony. i was there for two years with a lot of those people. i should tell you that dina one of our journalists here her picture, she is holding up a sign. moo rhea she has the tape on her mouth as well, that photo of her beamed from one of the jumbotron screens in time square today. just stunning. just stunning. maria, appreciate it. today the white house press secretary, was asked for the obama administration is still calling for the release. >> we have expressed concerned about the detainment and trial of al jazeera and others and we have expressed those concerns directly to the government, and we had urged the government to drop those charges and release them. we remain deeply concerned about the on going lack of freedom in egypt. all journalists must not be target of violence, or politicized legal action. they must be permitted to freely do their jobs. so way are watching the trial in egypt. we understand that the defendants pleaded not guilty. we strongly urge the government to allow these and all journalists to continue to do their jobs and it is impossible to see how they can do that, how any journalist can do their jobs if they are faced with questionable charges and are detained and on trial. >> give you a look at the polenta is released. these pictures are from the first appearance in front of a judge after two months in captivity. the ruling military backed government accuses them of supporting a terrorist organization, after they interviewed members of the now outlaws muslim brotherhood. is the bbc. this video was leaked to a privatety owned channeling, it broadcasts our journalists were arrested in the hotel room. a voice, thought to belong to a security officer is heard asking al jazeera asking bureau chief, about his accreditation to which he replies, i asked them, many times if our legal position is valid in egypt, i was told the al jazeera english position is valid. otherwise, i would not have accepted the job. questioned further. who the last person was they interviewed. who owns the equipment in the room. and he is asked, how he gets paid. >> terrorist which he answers. we don't interview people in the room. i get a monthly salary like everybody else. the committee rates egypt as one of the worst for the press. it has never been more important that the calls oppress freedom on this day of action are heard, in a country that is so deeply divided. story, in droughtportant stricken california the legislature passed a $687 million plan for immediate relief and emergency water assistance. as you know, there's been a bit of relief from the drought this week. that is raising concerned over flooding and landslide concerns. julie is tracking this system for us, looking to see you. >> good to see you always. >> this is a major storm. they are, receivedsticken 3.67 inches of rain. over the next couple of days they will receive up to eight-inches of rain. we have a little bit of a break, but as said is going to pushyou into california, going to bring the snow the roads you need to be careful, because that rain is coming down very rapidly, it is going to pose a major net to human life. a lot of folks think they can drive in the rein, unfortunately. there's currents under the water. and profits may be up at. places like boast buy and j.c. penny, but we will fell you why that doesn't mean they will be hiring. but first, joining international conversation to help our al jazeera colleagues. we are using #freeaj staff. as a journalist this is my battle. i can no long err pretend it will go away. i have no particular fight with the egyptian government, just as i have no interest in supporting the muslim brotherhood, but as a journalist i am committed to defending a freedom of the press, that no one in my profession can work without. a well noun nutritione's labels on the food you buy, about to get a makeover. today first lady michelle obama, and the head of the f.d.a. announced updates focusing on calories and sugar. lisa stark is in washington, d.c. for us, what are the changes announced today? >> tony, one of the biggest changes would be with the calorie count. if you are a label reader, and you should be, you look at that label and it is hard to see, written very small. the new labels would have the calorie count in bold large font, if you will, style, so that if you see it you know right away. another big change is that sugars, added sugars would be indicated on the label, so you know how much sugar is added. michelle obama making this joked that right now you need practically a calculator, a micro scope to read the labeling. here is what the first lady had to say. >> parents deserve to have the information they need to make healthy choices for their kids. and this isn't a particularly radical idea. in fact the, it seems pretty obvious, but the truth is that too often it's nearly impossible to get the most basic facts about the food we buy for our families. >> now another big change has to do with the serving size. they would adjust the serving size to more accurately reflect how we are eating. you know those big cans of soda, that's considered maybe 2 1/2 serving but let's face it, we drink it at once, so that would be one serving size, so people would get more accurate representation. >> i know that's not good for me to drink, the whole thing. what kind of impact is the changing of a label going to have? >> you know, experts say it is mixes. about 50% of people do read the labels but they aren't sure this will have a major impact in how consumers act. what it may do is effect the industry. when they added trans fats then they started taking trans fat out, if you add sugars maybe they will fry to cut the sugar content. >> lisa, appreciate it, lisa stark for us in washington, d.c. >> thank you. >> a record setting day, the s&p 500 closing at an all time high, the dow posting solid gains as well. stocks boosted by comments from fed chair janet yellen about economic policy and some better than expected earnings reported from retailers. we will talk that a bit more. he is with us, and he is a financial correspondent, and phil, good to see you. hi, phil. >> hey. >> you know we have been seeing a lot of these retailers posting good numbers here. improved profits but lower sales. best buy is an example of that, how is this possible? how are they doing this? >> what they are doing, is they are laying people off. and also reducing other costs but you in the last few months we have seen barns and mobile do the same thing, j.c. penny, target, sam's club, which is part of wal-mart. have decided they need to cut costs. >> so this is kind of growth through better efficiency? >> well, some people may argue whether it's efficiency or not, but certainly cutting jobs and getting more out. >> how is it not? what is the argue for it not become an efficient approach? >> some have said that it is cutting at the cost of insteer customer service, and retailers are cutting too close to the bone. >> what does it mean for the job market. we are talking about trimming staff, in some respects. and if they can do this and make a profit, is that ominous sign for employment? >> in the retail industry things are not looking up. a lot of online spending is going to retailers like amazon.com, so there's less of a need for people in stores. it is not a section people expect a lot of hiring in. >> what is going on with j.c. penny. shares soaring. >> i'm glad you asked that because i have been following the saga for a long time. and so essentially what happened is people were afraid if they didn't have a good holiday season, and manage their cash they would need to go back to the equity or debt market, they did so three times but yesterday, the ceo said the worst of the turn around is behind, they said they are going to have the same amount of money on hand the end of the year, so wall street says okay, doesn't look like they will need to borrow money. now the fears of bankruptcy appear to be gone for now. >> so at the moment, a lot of jobs are still in place. the financial correspondent at routers, good to see you. >> thank you very much. >> freddie mac is about to send the u.s. fresh surery a big check. the finance company says lit give the government a $10 billion dividend after posting a 9th straight quarterly profit. it will have paid the u.s. about $82 billion since the gov rescued it. that's $10 billion more than the original bail out. a day of global action, calling for the release of our colleagues held in egypt, coming up, a look at how first amendment rights are also being challenged right here in the united states. and a gun toting retired general in venezuela, look at this picture. gets into a stand off with forces the president of the country sent to arrest him. everyone.e back, ukraine's new government prompts to keep the country there breaking up. may complicate the situation, prorussian masked gunman today seized the parliament building there and russian jets have been flying above the border. meanwhile, ukraine's former president is reportedly in a luxury government retreat in russia. ahead of a news conference tomorrow, a russian news organization reports he still considered himself as the legitimate leader of ukraine. california lawmakers passed the $687 million plan to provide relief for areas devastated by drought. that includes emergency money for areas running low on drinking water. this is one of california's driest years on record. al jazeera is holding a global day of action to support journalists being detained by the jinx government, mohammed fami, al jazeera rejects the charges. people have been supporting our colleagues, martyr school in the capitol of beirut saw a big turn out holding banners and posters say journalism is not a crime. about 30 journalists gathered on the city's landmark round about. to show solidarity in a peaful rally. where the words jump lynch is not a crime. several passing drivers honked as a sign of support. at a demonstration we are expecting to see events in 30 countries throughout the day, as demonstrations take place arched the globe, georgia congressman hank johnson voiced his support on the house floor in congress today. >> earlier this month, i sent a letter signed by 15 members of the congress urging the secretary of state to take immediate action to help security the release of these journalists in egypt, is as egypt struggled to find it's identity, it is important for the international community to remind the egyptian leadership, and all the word leaders of the need for free press. free those journalist as free society requires a free press. >> even in ukraine, a nation living in political crisis, people are taking time out to call for the release of our colleagues. this group of journalists. covering the situation there, paused for just a few minutes to show their support, the call on egypt to release the mess. press freedoms are protected randall pinkston joins us with that story. >> tonefully, for many american journalists it is a controversial finding and not the first time that reporters without borders organization has given the u.s. a low rating for press freedom, this time is u.s. 11 points lower than last year. >> from the birth of the nation, american journalists have relied on the first amendment, and sometimes sources willing to reveal state secrets. but an international watchdog group says america's journalists are facing in pressure from the federal government to reveal their sources. >> a fugitive who linked thousands of documents. orr court marshaled army private bradley manning now known as chelsea committed for the biggest leak of classified documents in u.s. history. >> i can't think of any other time in history where the justice department, and the fbi in this case have actually maybe since the 1960's, tracked the press. >> two journalists recently discussed the disturbing trend. if we cannot provide confidentiality and if that confidentiality can be threatens in court, they will not be willing to too reveal what is going on in the government. >> that issue between the press and the government yielded a surprising result in reporters without borders latest world press freedom index. for more nan a decade, the organization has sent questionnaires to selected journalists researchers and human rights activists in 180 countries. the index considers media independent the environment in which reporters work, and transparency of government and private institutions that effect news gathering. this year, fin hand, the nether-land, and norway lead the list. but the u.s. regarded by many as the world's leading democracy, ranked 46th. one wrung above haiti. but questions the low rating for the u.s. >> i think overall, american journalists have very powerful protections, not the least of which is the everybody respect for rule of law in this country. the yep respect for free press. >> a lot of people look at the united states as a model. there needs sob some improvement regards the way they are able to do their jobs. >> now, here is an irony, president obama who was a constitutional lawyer, has doubled down on going after whistle blowers and the journalists who report their leaks. which was first issued by the bush administration is now being prosecuted by president obama attorney general errick holder. >> the so we know the government can access phone records, i'm wondering how that knowledge, that information is impacting even the knowledge of it is impacting the work of journalists in. >> well, first of all, is given a chilling effect to people that may be potential sources, the other thing it is forcing journalists to increase their technology. learning how to encrypt their phone calls and their computer communications. >> thank you. information gathering by u.s. diplomates profile nearly 200 countries on their human rights record. secretary of state john kerry criticized sir is yeah, russia, and china for discrimination. may also made a point of credit siding uganda's antigay. >> we are sees new bills and signed into law earlier this week. which not only makes criminals of people for who they are, but punishes those that defend the human rights that are a universal birth right. >> it had made homo sexuality a climb punishable by law. let's go to ranch jordan live. tell us more about what is in this report? >> well, the report deems with the issues of press freedom, of the ability to bather and engage, as well as take part in political protests and it also typically takes a look at the abuses that vulnerable populations will suffer. whether it's rape used as a tool in war, or whether it's children being pressed into service as soldiers. but this report this year take as look at two new topics. one of them is the impunity which many police forces and many militaries enjoy by cracking down on people who are simply trying to exercise their civil liberties. f report is now listing those countries that don't hold their police forces or their military accountability for violating people's right to gather, to assemble, to petition their government. they are also taking a look now at the way that the word's workers are being treated. do people have a safe place to work, or are may at risk of dying if the factory, for example, were to collapse, in been he dash, or a father and people can't get out safely. are people being paid fairly, are they getting the kind of treatment that produces a happy and productive work force, rather one that is aiken to slavery. so the state department and now tracking those as well, and basically telling both friends and rivals you have to do better by your citizens. >> can they leave countries if they are unhappy with their work situations? so according to the state department, let's make some names here. who are the worst defenders when it comes to violating human rights laws. >> well, they don't say they rank them per se, but suffice it to say, very. countries on the annual list, and this covers every country, and territory, i should say, but they can find an instance where people's ability to live their lives imped rights are basically protected. now some of the people -- the countries i should say that perhaps are the most egregious, certainly take a look at syria. it's also increasing it's use of conventional weapons. air strikes on population that support the people that are trying to overthrow the government. that country came in for a lot of criticism. they have also taken a look at the on going curtailing of public liberties inside russia. as many people know, the u.s. and russia aren't getting along right now, this report probably isn't going to improve relations any time soon. >> to say the least. ross, appreciate it. kentucky joins a list of states forced by a court order to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other countries. this same judge ruled recently, that same-sex marriage ban treated gay and lesbians differently in a way that demeans them. the federal government has launched an investigation, over it's failure to address some problem links to at least 13 deaths and 31 crashes. six g.m. models have faulty ignitions switching which led to power failure in brakes, engine, and air bags. g.m. first identified the problem back in 2004, but didn't reveal the extent of the problem until earlier this month. juneing us now from detroit, now that the government is investigating, what does this mean for general motors. >> the national highway traffic safety administration is looking into whether general motors followed the rules and properly disclosed and properly disclosing their deeffects in their vehicles. i am told that g.m. right now, if they -- if it is determine that may actual cannily didn't act fast enough that they could face a fine of over $30,000,000.01 challenge for general motors would be that in a report to the government, the auto maker revealed that some of their engineers saw that there was some issues way back in 2004. just to give you a update again on the list of these vehicles the vehicles under the recall list include 2003-2007 saturn ions, 2006-7 chevrolet hhrs, 2006-7 pontiac sol citieses. also, 2005-2007 chevy cobalts. and pontiac pursuits can were recalled earlier this month. now, g.m. right now people who have these vehicles to get their it is unclear when those repairs will happen. i did have the opportunity to speak with a law professor about the impact this recall could have on general motors. >> of course, general motors very concerned about it's image, post bankruptcy. would like to say this is the new general motors, they take responsibility for what may have gone on. even if it isn't on the watch of the people that are now in charge. they are in the process of trying to rebuild their image in that regard. >> general motors release at statement saying they will fully cooperate with the government in their investigation. calms should be receiving notices about when they can get their car fixed sometime next month. tony. >> all right, in detroit, in italy the former captain of the costa concordia boarded the doomed ship today, more than two years after the vessel capsized. it is part of a court order to held figure out whether anything other than human error was involved in the wreck. the captain is charged with abandoning his ship and manslaughter. in the united kingdom, the guardian newspaper rothers that british intelligence agents are stealing hundreds of thousands of screen shots taken by yahoo users web cams. two report said they intercepted messages between 1.8 million yahoo users in 2008. the program code named optic nerve is reportedly still active and has collected thousands of photos many of them x rated. yahoo says it was not aware of and it does not condone it. the man accused of shooting up a colorado movie theater has a trial date. thank you, tony. a judge set october 14th as a trial date for james holmes. he is the man accused of shooting up a movie theater in 2012. killing 14 people, and injuries 70 others. holmes pled not guilty by reason of insanity, the trial date has been postponed twice before, so he could undergo two mental health evaluations. he faced the death penalty. christian smith was arraigned today, she pled not guilty to charging of kidnapping for taking her four-year-old nephew later this month. he was found unharmed incite a crate at a gas station. he spent four hour 24 hourn bitter cold before he was found. the man convicted of trying to kill ronald ragan may be spending more time outside prison. he was found insane for shooting the seriously wounding ragan in 1981. he has been serves his sentence in a mental hospital, uh be he has been allowed to spend time visiting his mother, and tuesday a judge increased his visits to 17 days beginning next month. box tores asking the center for disease control and prevention, to investigate a polio like illness that is effecting young people. she wants the agency to find out who has left 20 children paralyzed all in the past 18 months. and in massachusets runners in this year dose boston marathon won't be allowed to use backpacks or handbags. the organization in charge of the 26-mile race said runners will need to put clothing in clear plastic bags. police say spectators will still be allowed to carry backpacks but they will likely be searched. the difficulty of ending homelessness has been a constant problem but in one community, people that once lived in homes are now living in what is called micro homes. a what is a micro home. >> 30 different units here. micro housing. ins a development that was born from protests, homeless protests. starting seven years ago. there's her computeser going off, never mind that sound. very small units as you can see. a bed, a bathroom, a sink, a toilet a closet, not much more than that. a couple of extra feet. this is one of the biggest ones this is wheelchair access. they also wanted the units facing each other, so there wouldn't be isolation in the communities. so this is the village, and tony, that is micro housing for the formerly homeless. >> that's terrific. all right, appreciate it, in libya washington and coming up, gun toting retired general, gets in a stand off with security after supporting student protestors. only on al jazeera america general, gets in a stand off and it is going viral. >> yeah, tony, a former general who has been very vocal critic of the government of venezuela over the last decade. and here he is, he told students to put wire across barricades on the roads. now, the police then the government after his arrest so they sent police to his house, when he came out he came out with with this semiautomatic rifle here. and he has a flat jacket on. he has become an icon, i sect to one that has been a folk here down there. and you have people here all around his house, and he has been giving talks too with megaphone, saying that the government has been infiltrated by the cubans and on his twitter account he has gotten more than 239,000 followers. you have -- my respects and support to you, general, but of course some people are not supportive of this, the pro government people down in venezuela writes fascist, and they are putting oil on the streets here, tony. >> all right. thank you. president obama even vailed a new initiative today. to give young black men an opportunity to reach their full potential. >> the chances of the average black or brown child in this country lagged behind by almost every measure, and is worse for boys and young men foundations businesses and other groups. spent some time with the group that has already had sock success. >> for 19-year-old turner after school boxing has helped relieve tension and agreg. >> i had a really bad anger issue, but i got rid of it. it creeps in sometimes. so i put oen the gloves i just start practicing punching at something, try to get it out. >> or becoming a man. >> boxing is a martial art. one of the great things in sports in general, is that it is a great opportunity to teach people discipline, team work, commitment, and even that positive anger. skills that help relewis violence in antisocial behavior. >> reveals that a large portion are a result of behavior. it appears to be working according to a study by the crime lab, want for dissipation reduced arrests by 44% compared to students that were not in the program. they everless likely to get in schools. it is anishtive that has caught the attention. last year a group of band students sat in a counseling circle with president obama. he is meeting with the president once again this year. >> al jazeera's investigative unit has tonights exclusive report... >> from coast to coast... >> people selling fresh water for fracking... >> stories that have impact... >> we lost lives... >> that make a difference... >> senator, we were hoping we could ask you some questions about your legal problems... >> that open your world... >> it can be very dangerous... >> i hear gunshots... >> the bullet came right there through the widdow... >> it absolutely is a crisis... >> real reporting... >> this...is what we do... >> america tonight, only on al jazeera america. >> start with one issue education... gun control... the gap between rich and poor... job creation... climate change... tax policy... the economy... iran... healthcare... ad guests on all sides of the debate. >> this is a right we should all have... >> it's just the way it is... >> there's something seriously wrong... >> there's been acrimony... >> the conservative ideal... >> it's an urgent need... and a host willing to ask the tough questions >> how do you explain it to yourself? and you'll get... the inside story ray suarez hosts inside story weekdays at 5 eastern only on al jazeera america will hold a news conference tomorrow. he went on the run last weekend, and the has taken refuge in russia. meanwhile, the parliament has avoidedded a coalition government. two california legislature has passed an almost $700 million drought relief fund today. the plan includes penalties for divert c. penny water and is headed to the desk right now. the second system in building over a second weather system is building over the state right now. prompting fears of landslides have been issued near california. during a meeting with senior staff. he has served as attorney general since the start of the obama administration. today, is al jazeera's global day of action for detained staff in egypt. they have been in prison for 61 days. ner accused of having links with a terrorist organization and spreading false news. al jazeera rejects the charged to take part. i only tony harris, inside story is next. hello, i'm ray swarez. every year the u.s. is state department gathering intellce
the nation. it is the council created by poppy songs included agency the isi him to dr stormsmain focus on any success he does get a call from jamie mott was author of on the capital for the song by country. this tunnel due by tuesday on the milky rice beans imaging and into the creation of pakistani intelligence agencies for some time now each of the duties of the bike. again stuck in the seeking descendants of the peace sign. i mean i mix means by decency i insight into him on the scene. he does add value in human rights commission and to think of this kind support it didn't hurt after working at deakin to coax him the ok to fight its four employees of tickets. if you want right among the dead baby chewing them about it. many bought fifty thousand people there that might freeze me out to get out. the problem is that betty be held in stating what the situation in the gnomes of the bike. you want them to become. my sources tell me ninety five percent dip again for miles. this means people can get. yet what i did two or more to him what i can definitely rights and peace. it was getting text to it yet. it gives us the good people who are going to be picking up stake with them noel was speaking against a good idea to do to prevent one from acted film. it even has the distinct art and mixed it seems difficult for these things. they've been given tax. chop the chicken teaching is used for managing change and what better underneath the sheets. they can actually go above and he's going to be picked up getting screwed it up this tiny establishment. the open seat. at least twenty six at stumps themed action and to top that anybody does not instill little gem sri. i was also the need for encouraging abduction and extortion to snuff out the feeding was made in the uk. the dude almost reaching the nastiest he did i get started in high security detail of it including the student highlights that the gifted outfits. oakleigh community to join tuesday. the one tool that ned beatty. there are some but that does good work and he bit me on the duckie the problem but fox hunting right in front of me digging them out. i teach i do with it needed beautiful. he says it is not being up for the ad and he put out at arsenal threats. watch the ghost like to see state of german coach me. the yorkie has been the focus turned to him for over a six tickets now but it sure was occupied and i do a puppet to cheat as did the white dots contingents off its back on the cheek to maintain a strong whiskey. i have. i need its own two feet for intentional creation of the things that you're teaching. who or what. one form or from somebody put on the camino bad. even then it's not that this meeting mimi says he is the idea that the kids bike park sunday. in the end of the many don't. to me that this question in that you would like that. please keep people out of breath. but i don't get tied up in rights and fundamental human rights body. and if he ever said to be over the sand and get a free hand. chase continued to be two weeks which solutions for from the new medicine and he's in i teach me officially declared for neoprint bottom boat until denies ancient indus was even in countries in the softies dish and the agent that has been certified as being all why would you buy this. this achievement makes the salty stationed in the fall the mayor to the gym to be certified as we go free. off to the region off the americans in nineteen ninety four. the most impressive that region in two thousand and the utopian vision into awesome too. you cheer chen of the eastern countries. i've been to care for you will do. he needs disease has been intoxicated the eighty percent of the world. health organizations sued by the southeast asian region which includes india. but excludes god has done in august on two feet off the steelers. see the new case the report it. the two assists. this meant eighteen percent of the quilts population live in total three regions. people can stand to lose to the dedication of the disease minnie mouse. the successful completion of a daughter jenny is heated to a huge ordeal. it also marks the end of the biggest headache and achievements. was it. the two point three billion strong team. it was in tears at one hundred and fifty thousand supervisors. the night to teach every triumph the indian health minister expressed gratitude to its detriment to do except go to the international. melinda gates foundation and other stakeholders including the parents of children with its strong technical and operational supposed to describe it to bat first in this region. also present at the certification set a meet with representatives from dublin ritual and senior officers of the ministry of health and found it worth it i really true. for the summer. there really is excellence is the job he has no real busy. we are even embark on it. in nineteen oh seven to nineteen ninety five with his usual stupid although truth be told to go in the car via. the it was india is mocking the us since it's an obstacle to put your case and i'm not in the deal that brought against the disease. it is seen as confirmation of one of india's biggest have success is achieved through a massive and sustained eighty nine station program. in two thousand and twelve. we'll have the station moved to india from the list oh two and a bit countries the sun's energy to be on discs. this preface to countries in this divide is this a convict in fiji the transmission of infectious disease has not been stopped. despite india's success. experts fear the resurgence of boat you in other parts of the load i forgot. reading you'll be listening to her by running for the rights. schoolgirl all but ninety nine cents i'm on a delirium of all additional peak in the morning or dominion buy shorts and yes hope you are in your eye on him. or you are. it was. one piece of food you was recorded in india in two thousand and seven down from seven hundred and forty baht in two thousand and nine. a team from the eastern state of west wing gone into cars and eleven. when an eighteen month old. it was fun to have contracted the disease the forty three countries you just did an image hassan and nigeria. i still eat it all greeks in the pornographic a fourteen city of toulouse as closest to the senate in two thousand the team. vaccinations but this is done are still being hit by the bodyguard. this is to use it includes one of india's biggest topic of success stories accomplishing something it's called impossible thanks to aggressive. so stayed back to the free program. he just was somebody should. must be internal migration and to top it did to health system. made many experts believe it would be the last country to have the ticket to disease. if it ever did. the country's certified as gluten free web based it on. democratic people's republic of korea india indonesia motifs that are sure their eyelids and timo to this day. a quick break but no stadium that this coming up off to the break. in dallas yesterday. i've been somewhat exhausting war against it on top. one was better not this country is believed that a robot reasons didn't go for his book. watching a six off the ship moving on up. what a surprise one and all it is india's decision to abstain from working at the united nations human rights commission against the dunn cup and believes that the doctor sits forms of resignation is too intrusive and maybe the sovereignty of the country. and as long as a shock to the book of criticism and protests by southern allies fifteen pm eye. in every decision multi destination no foreign policy india abstain from voting on the response of the convention on human rights commission and she got why do you get supported it in two thousand and eight and two cars in fiji. it is his intention was to watch the full court in for an independent investigation into a rigid human rights by nations in the nation. antics to investigate a mechanism with an open ended mandate to one in ten national processes is not the concept of up to it. in all new and up being an inclusive approach that undermines national sovereignty and institutions is counterproductive. hands we had in this instance abstain on that as an ocean i know. there is additional cost to get sixty votes in favor of trade the teams and two abstentions. in his abstention comes off to kenya based it out on the resolution saying it would create peace begins with the defeat got to be stunned. number two had gone to the strong diplomatic offensive with the indian leadership including nato meetings with the national security advisor to come between them. focus on good it is to teach the young guns by proposing a sceptical on the altar he did that often deemed to be most defenses hoping to be molded to keep from today's edition. but to be sixteen bullets to predict side. we know it. what significance does have the deep end. much more needs to be done by the industrial up. and then i love quotes truth and the andaman sea time to investigate allegations of human rights violations. no comprehensive independent and credible national mechanism. and it just is. those palms in the teens. mia's move has angered the summit aunties in india. the two seem to support move by the government is viciously on the eve of the directions i said yes to the issue of war in favor of the position in bed we wandered the visitor center will be more like the gates. so is the report said. i mean as you get to go to youtube and thirteen commandments and attribution package for the denise and be happy to teach him off to steve thomas you did. he has taken the baby to judge and strong position and has been supporting for the persecutions against the young go so far. such was how creative differences and cream cones in the relationship between the two nations. time and again when once in a box with unofficial from the southern airlines eye. den went off what was bad to not just a baby and all of the trade off of one of the deductible we call the whole body in india as entertainment doctor who back. i know that there was a moment ago or skiing. as a lesson in parenting. i made that we did that day. jim carrey. i was vegging actions she gave me on friday my stinky feet. he is the chain enough upcoming movie about how by cbs entertainment at the table may invest in front of the match. none of that someone took it with two postings below the mason city i was listening to things she didn't get this out by the need to find them listed yet. it is. it is. i am while. as you. i love love might be missing. but duty it has that due to it. i like this. without it. on one page is here. of the town citing the need to add on to study the god of love. this is such a commotion and gone and reality and two. i mean it's weekends. his friend about how life on them i like he'd been in touch with you i wrote to. the did they. i have. the fourteen of the forthcoming finch was present at the tree to launch the movie has been detected by acclaimed event that come with cooking and stars of the sun five cope with being an actor socket eighteen in the u joints it has continuous my faults costume dealings. siegel all folks just don't deal with india vijay singh on cover of i don't want some entertainment rights to make this film is not just puts him at adding just a question and i'm acting a dozen. we should not be concluding that it isn't that what he puts it in because this is the plumage is actually for the entire family it happens to have children that adding what's unique is that we the film has been made and a i think as you see more talk of finland. as you begin marketing its awesome ova episode you will be if this offends the entire family being. maintenance it was abolished for screen wants action in the face of all stickers in them. sigh i don't i'm not sure what they now want to read a piece in the little fatigued yesterday the big eating it was. i don't eye. at. masonic line to vote. back down the tremendous the hide a bed with me. i was in the government's new health plan for two weeks. i'm not an item i moved to manhattan you know shannon. i was happy. he is a mess for me to tie the game to him. i bought my history teacher and his demeanor. and i was going the eye. gone to the end of this additional music saw fisher women back next week with more new is mia was an analysis of the sub continent meanwhile cooking driving into us at the end of the hissing out in the kindle call. this is not about to sign off on off of the entire production team off to the face the program is brought you by. her group from norway's mainstream crews were lies the group exploring one thousand miles of norwegian coastline the report local encounters and access to wilkinson. as ah was taking full story four straight one new weekly hour to go to the big names are given credit for what. i feel a sense of possibility. what happens many perspectives as possible in order to get something to do with him increasing because it's sexy it's a really upset by the fact is that vaccines can cause brain information. she drew on friends to fill the hearts of living learning to be created without the confines of limitations hope we have to transform our world. avoiding creative local angle so people in the world they lived i defeated him and if possible you can really connect. see you next. all stray from los angeles. fuel production from cctv about. starting of twelve saturdays at eleven pm and makes the world view east africa has always been about you the region's craig kelly was likely to reach the cradle of humanity. john bolton is like this one the men in my crate and central india. rearrange trilogy the flora and fauna that the few hundred years the new and rejuvenation occurred again in east africa this time through technology some say an internet revolution is underway in africa. it's cold is a broadband internet than centered on kenya. you know he places it. but the stuff because i found them. it's indian ocean port city of mombasa is linked to the various submarine internet cables that connect africa europe and asia. move but based development bank of southern africa specializes in financing africa's information communications technology sector. memphis old as the ict sector. the cables and does dishes and devices that connect people to the internet means to me that the us we are both experienced in addition to the next six. one hopes that they are the works the table is the sequel money to the uk the east coast of africa. and the envisaged the clinton took able to achieve it says that exists for that occasional of ict products the bed as it is all off he said on tuesday cables and the auntie and sensor lights mason didn't read everything that's in the next two years the african continent will change. change is already underway in kenya where it tries to establish the government is moving whole sectors of national administration online the cost is called snowball opal investment in the new government but that was going on in prescott. we are well thought of that little box in front of a mile. we the middle of the word of what you would not comment on the one with the suffering will be clean. scott looks older than this. we have done a must buy bubble tea which links to this form of a calm peace. it's just the beginning. kenyans students get a whole generation of standing in line filling in forms and mailing in checks. kenya is aiming to kill them one above what we're doing now. he said. they sold it to just use within the gulf. and the muscle use that equips them with goods. who wants the kitchen's mauresmo from when we went for the course teaches you to access the test will come away get to sport was in the comp. see who's the continent's whitening internet access to increase efficiency. so does call us which was tossed forces studying pocahontas girl bands to business how do we promised the crisis using it. using s vintage phones we have the thing in this op ed in this program more money transfers are next to the will of its well established in east africa especially in kenya. it's been such is the wedding. up to date global real time this crisis should be shown and then today so that they understand the dynamics of daily basis. development experts say it's well worth african countries investing in broadband infrastructure as a top priority the ferment of roads railways and due to the streets. that's because information communications technology ict will ultimately power and enable the other investments. in one of those bullets into the two rail systems the buildings due to be put to sea ict infrastructure so that the team. he he he. anything that interesting. she has other sectors. it was in twenty oh six and has been on crutches. with such investment. a simple individual. it's thirty five the man who has donated more you can get significant number of fixes. a week or so easy of use to promote this and can induce me the guides you to use it. at the same time the duo when you open it is. chu woo woo woo whoo i took history gets worse every day. because cricket is called what. lights. a dorset to play. but whatever. while gordon use