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let's take a look at the top stories now here on al jazeera, moscow has a kid, the u. s. government of waging a proxy war against russia. the comments, one of the ukrainian presidents, a visit to washington, d. c, to request more weapons, he told congress military support, ukraine's warwick butcher was an investment in global security and democracy. i would like to thank you. thank you very much. thank you for both financial packages you have already provided us with. and there was, you may be willing to decide on your money is not cheery team is an investment in the global security and democracy that we handle in the most responsible way. the korean forces are holding their ground against the russian soldiers, and the battle for that lute russian troops could advance on other cities if they seize the territory. eastern ukraine floods triggered by monsoon rains of killed at least 5 people. unfortunately, 65000 from their homes in northern malaysia. evacuations are on the way and more rain is predicted. a powerful winter storm is making its way through the us and canada, bringing with it crippling snowed extremely cold temperatures. is been called a once in a generation event that's disrupting aaron land travel dream. one of the busiest times of the year. the world health organization is urging beijing to provide more detail information, the spread of coven 19 in china. no new deaths have been officially recorded for 2nd day for bodies are reported to be piling up in chrome at williams. israel as long as serving prime minister benjamin netanyahu says he has secured a last minute deal to form a new government at yahoo had faced a midnight deadline to arrange a coalition agreement follows weeks and negotiations with religious and far right. coalition partners. a funeral has been held for 23 year old palestinian man killed in an israeli raid and occupied west bank. it happens, or is rarely troops rated the city of nobliss to escort is ready. soldiers, settlers, i should say on that incursion. of religious site and peruse at president dina brought a has carried out a major cabinet me shuffle, appointing a new prime minister in finance. chief he came hours after she won approval from congress to bring forth elections to 2024. those are your headlines. more news from us after inside story setting ah estrella and china about 50 years of diplomatic relations which had been raw, the frosty of lace near straightly in foreign minister, has travelled to beijing a step towards rock rosabelle. so what are the sticking points and just how important is their relationship? this is inside story. ah hello there and welcome to the program. i'm the star theater. now china and australia, a mocking half a century of diplomatic ties, but there hasn't been a lot to celebrate recently. a rift that began in 2019 only deepened over the next 3 is a strategy as new governments that about improving relations. alley on with prime minister anthony alban. easy meeting president. she's in ping at last month's g. 20 summit and bali. chinese trade sanctions do remain in place, but one visit is the 1st by an australian minister in 3 years. and the latest diplomatic offensive indicating a thor and relations is on the way. the mark of success is dialogue itself. so we obviously have a lot of issues to work through and dialogue is a prerequisite for working through. what i would say is what i've said to minister one v occurred, counsel one v. we believe it to the incidence of both countries with detroit impediments to be removed. well, diplomatic ties between australia and it's major trading partner, china have been strained in recent years. beijing imposed sanctions on australian exports and 2020 half to can record for an international inquiry into the origins of coven 19 those restrictions, notably, or applies as several huge australian industries, including wine, barley, and coal. beijing was also angered when the previous government under former prime minister scott morrison shutout telecommunications found qual way from australia's 5 g network. up to 2020 china was the biggest buyer of australian iron, or gas and coal. and china has also applied to join a trans pacific trade pact. australia is already a member and has veto powers over membership applications, or human rights are another area of disagreement. foreign minister penny wong raised the case of to australian citizens, county jail in china. journalist chang lay an author, young john of course are discussed miss july and dr. young. we raise that in every senior level engagement that we are able to and authorize that in each of the discussions i've had with the state counsellor. and we advocate for range of things in those discussions, day includes for those strivings to be being an artist with their families as soon as possible. but we also advocate for the observance of all functional agreements. and for those just trying to have control access. obviously cause it is presented some problems about you. it is the case such as the doubtful days that those are strong and should be given appropriate cultural access and will continue to advocate for the while. the more on this now i'm joined by august in britain. we have test news and came, she's the project to leave it for the pacific hub at griffith university. in beijing is henry hugh? yeah. why? he's the founder and president of the center for china and globalization. and in type a, we have alicia garcia herrera. she's the chief economist for the asian pacific and the texas, that the french investment bank will melt them to you will thank you for joining us on inside story. now we've had this 90 minute meeting a very carefully worded press conference. i noted that when she was about to have a meeting this morning, penny wong had said the i stores. but slowly alicia, what you make of the melt so far? i think this is basically good news that we're having this. this is called meeting after bobby because it shows that, you know, there is possibility for re engagement that and really perhaps means as much as ring h. men. rapprochement might be that word, but i think this is not only australia we're seeing, basically the us, we're seeing european member states. everybody's coming and realizing that that, you know, a new cold war is in nobody's interest. and i think this is part of that story's one chapter in that story. so i'm curious about the timing of this, sir, from particularly the chinese side chinese economy is obviously hurting hugely at the moment it's feeling increasingly isolated because of its 0 cobit strategy. was beijing perhaps ready to do this? and the change of government in australia was just a good opportunity to do that. henry? well, i think this is probably the best time as we know that during the last 2 or 3 months, john has actually started the very active high level, the promise, see no precedent. she has actually one to the g, 20 australian leaders there and also cost. so we have the pack, we have to a parade on before these are coming now we see form used to come in just great. i think china, australia fundamentally have no, no conflict, geopolitical body issues and it's really on you and, and also i expected the bilateral relations gone, so low so. so i think this is great at high time that we revive the normal relation and maybe less elevate that to a better level. so, so i think it's really a good time and chinese economies. those are starting to a boom again because not of the lifted covey control and a we expect a retaliatory growth of the chinese economy the next year. so i think there's probably a right time to engage and particularly china and australia has a such a, a reactive cannot be bilateral relations show. and me, sorry, just to follow up that i'm curious about how much you think this particular rapprochement from the chinese side has been driven by domestic concerns or not. this is not, i don't think there's any domestic concern related because really, you know, there's 3 months ago john, top details are starting to around weren't already been in central asia in june 20 and then all the title and all the places. and also we see a parade of before leaders come in for 5. leaders come in november and december and we expect in the private market coming probably soon. secretary blinking is coming. so everyone is engaging china. so in that kind of context, i think if you're not doing well actively, it's probably 40 up behind so, so i think it's good time domestically, chinese also get up to recover from the covey downs and it's probably the best time i think that so let me let me bring hold in here to speak about the a straightly and timing of all of this because i also notice that penny wong is just fresh out of the south pacific as well. she's been on a tour of, of nations there, and relations with china and that part of the well, they've also been fairly controversial in some places they've led to violent riots to what you make of the timing here. i think it's quite interesting timing in the australian context, and as you say, literally last week, minutes to warm was with the pots, the delegation in 3 different pacific countries. you know, this time of year tends to be quite quiet in the us trillion context in terms of media in common trade. so i think that is significant in terms of how the out beneath the government wants this to be portrayed. so yes, it's significant. but even before she left, that one was quite careful to be closing down any great expectations that everything was going to happen at once. she's made it very clear that she sees this is something of a process and certainly, well, i mean, i don't know the issues in the pacific were discuss when she met with accounts in beijing. but certainly a lot of the work that's been done by senate wong and her colleagues in the region since the change of government has been about trying to reassure pacific partners that australia is interest in the region and australia is interest in them. is, is more than simply trying to either compete with all contain china in the region, but a number of the things that penny says that she did raise issues around human rights . we had a little bit of that earlier in the show. she also, i believe, raised the treatment of the week in minority and obviously the ongoing detention of these 2 is trillion citizens, chang lee and dr. young had joined. these are obviously all very sensitive issues. so basing. but elisha, beijing must have known that this was all going to come up, right? yeah, i mean, the thing is that if this happens, every time there western either visits china, i think anyone has to convey says which the canadian hadn't resolved. and i thing is now high time for australia to solve this problem, but it goes beyond, as it said, i mean there's 2 major issues. ah, why is the, the very that australia requests to investigate the origins of coverage which led to of course, the further work of the relation. and now the thing is, many one is going ask chinese opening up at 80 degrees with potential consequence for the rest of the world, because this is a massive change in direction with potential notation. so, you know, there's a lot of things beyond the ones who said that could be discussed also regarding coffee. so surely it's not only going to be on the words that we know, but i think it is good that these things are discussed. and i think that's why i still in the visit is, is worth happening by all means on purpose. sure. i want to take a look at some of the not very nice was that have been said by particularly well, both sides and particularly one side. i was one point towards the end of 2020 relations had deteriorated so far that china was actually publicly issuing threats . one chinese official said, and i quote, if you make china the enemy, china will be the enemy. and china, one point listed 14 grievances, it was a leak documents and they included what government funding for so called anti chinese research. just really think tanks deliberately spoken to china. hysteria criticizing, trying to behavior when it came to taiwan, hong kong and young as well as some of them that we've discussed already. henry, what's happened to these grievances from beijing side, they just gone away. why think you log in? she can't, do you remember the date low? 21st is the exact date of effect 2 years ago and australian child on the established diplomatic ties. and that one, this is that the ties, there's only $100000000.00, the total chain. now it's to 200000000000 over and over to a 1000 times has increased this since last past decade past in half a century. so. so than, you know, now we have such a great relation in the past. you know, we have over 100 twin cities and provinces. we have are, you know, still exchanges or booming tourism. i me, austria is the largest trading part of china in a large extra market. a chinese, the for fostering the so all those good things, you know, of course, china doesn't know that we don't understand why suddenly the relationship gets sour because, of course, our tracing origins is one, probably the reason why they are the other hand in australia so far away we do have a border issue and now there are stories in the, in the quad, the in the are cuz i'll because of nuclear submarines. you know, i mean what, what that for. so, i mean there is, there's lot of misunderstanding, i think, mistrust or has been created in the last number of years of probably you'll on both sides too. but but, but again, i think it's now as a turning point the prime is too man to present. she and all the for mr. is willing to come to page into talk are all those you shoes, which is great. i think we need to tat dialogue with the the, you know, the communication so. so i think it's in both country interest. we'll continue this og, a pump puzzled and standing, and then i have a balanced study of china because i listed it. and one really things they're gonna become chinese. not very happy about that. we've mentioned a couple of them that really triggered the deterioration here. that the very rapid deterioration and of relations, and one of them was the ban on hallway and the other was this, this request for the independent investigation to the origins of co that test. let me ask you, then you're sitting in better than what's actually happened in regards to both of those. well, the well with thing has been, you know, this, that, that's, that's had indications in the region as well. so we saw australia takeover essentially offered a fund, a submarine fiber, optic telecommunications cable service, both solomon islands and pop and guinea. and that was essentially, you know, very direct intervention in order to prevent while we're providing that critical infrastructure. and then more recently we've seen the australian government essentially under right telstra to buy out did to sell, which is a mobile telephone company in the region. because there was a, there was a concern. we don't know what that was based on that the, the parent company might sell that to a chinese operate. and so these issue of who is managing, supplying and running telephones and digital infrastructure in the region is one that is still very, very touchy and very sensitive for the australian security community. so clearly, trust has not been built up in that regard. i want to move on to talking trade, henry, you mentioned the huge volume of bilateral trade. let's take a look at some of the numbers in 2021. bilateral trade between the 2 countries came to approximately $231000000000.00 us dollars. china's imports from australia reached 165000000000 that's up more than 40 percent from the year before. despite the foster relations australian imports from china with $73000000000.00 us dollars, including goods like household appliances and telecoms. equipment and chinese nationals also constitute, as we mentioned, the largest number of international students and inbound taurus. now it's always been renewable that in 2020 a trailer was one of the countries, one of the few developed countries in a while that had a trade surplus with china that it exported more to china than an imported. but then china stopped on those trade restrictions were what something like $20000000000.00 in that time. as trailer has found many of the markets read goods, especially for coal and barley. so alicia, let me ask you, how much does the strategy actually need china now? when i was straight the figure, although this was not known before, china indeed cuts or bad and not all but the imports from australia. i think what i learned is that china bass with us and really fully need, but he doesn't band with time and me and this is iron or, and the bulk basically of china, imports from australia. so this shop wasn't as big as expected. and on top of that, because the rest of the world is in this energy transition and you know, everybody's looking for guys, they're looking for a critical met, minerals, and that's where i'm standing out anyway for the chaise in australia. are trying to conclude a trade agreement, free trade agreement with australia. so in other words, wasn't as painful and that i think it's very important to realize that those trade is going to be indeed, but it isn't going to be jim because if it's economist climate and because i'm trying to call them is actually an improvement is redcoat low, there's no problem with those trade in economy, so that's important to realize anything you allude to that to something that's very critical for china and that's natural resources that china desperately needs. henry, let me ask you this. we've talked a little bit about australian iron, or in particular is china now trying to shore up this trailing resources? is that passive? the motivation for trying to throw out these trusty relations? no, i don't think so because sir, you know, china as a, you know, the, one of the big, the importers that they can buy anywhere. and then, i mean, the reason that the gold from australia because the joint good relation was lost really before. but then if australia is really put china as a potential enemy and have nuclear submarines and aligns with the security is those you as a japan on china? so what would, what do you think about chinese people felt 1st at the how do they fell about those things? suddenly there's, this is to history. so, so i think that, you know, now it's a good time that we're turning around but, but still, i think that we would have a very serious when to actually when i'm slightly confused by what you're saying there. because you're saying that china doesn't need a strategy, and i and or, and, and it's worried about this, a lack of trust. and when it comes to security, and yet, chinese continued importing australian, i, in, or even through these very, very frosty times. so how does that work? what china certainly early, you know, they come by the come by from australia to come by from other countries. i mean, which miss john is still very, very reasonable. they are not stopping all the imports. of course not. and they are still who's you buying from australia, which i think is fine. but we actually, you know, like my think tags a sound of a john or global as we hosted a former are still in training mister birmingham in 2019. he came to my office, i made a deliver speech, a welcome china john, secret to give you that time. so i think we could do, we have a lot of things to collaborate. and so i think for this region for asia pacific, there's lots of things of what counters come walking together between a channel that you are japan anson here because i have already sign auster, which i was. i'm curious about how this is working out from the australian side when it comes to trade, because now after this conversation, they've agreed to expand high level dialogue, which will now also include presumably between trade ministers. test. how soon do you think we might see any of these trade restrictions being lifted? if at all a optimistic ah, that's not really something i'm in the position to comment on that some a max of for obviously the, i'm sure that now that these, now that these dialogues have recommended some sure that the, the trade people will be capitalizing on that and trying to get things moving as soon as possible. and i know that certainly there is a lot of expectation on the part of australian business late is that they want to see these. these issues moved along and barriers removed as soon as possible as well. they do indeed, well, we also can't have a conversation about australia and china without mentioning the u. s. and i see that on the eve of this visit prime, this album easy made a rather striking choice to his new us ambassador, the former prime minister, kevin rud, who not only speak mandarin, but also i believe that has the doctorate on. she's in things well view. he's also been heading the asia society in new york for the last few years. alicia is this is trailer, making its priorities in washington clare. well, i have to say indeed, you're quite right daddy. it's a strange choice, but i guess, you know, kevin rat is, is probably good enough to be to also help him. but sort of the you as a mother, he knowledge and child. i mean, but the, the thing is i don't know how anyone is going to kind of, i mean, how is it going to be that he's really not somehow maybe under denny li, interfering yet, because because the u. s. s such an interesting china so. so that's going to be a tricky ah, whether that was on purpose and there was a reason for that. i really can't tell when it is indeed difficult be. i think even for penny one more her i mean, and i would find it difficult to see. and then in a lot of the us, let me bring in test here because i'm, i'm not sure that it's near to such a strange choice in australia. there's been a lot of emphasis on, on how to deal with china. how's that going over in australia t s? i think that has been this a similar kind of conversation as una would. would it have been better to sent rod to begging because he does have such a strong chinese aspect to his expertise, but he's been resident in the us for quite some time. and obviously as built up some really important networks there. and i think that given, given australia's position in the region and given the importance of australia's relationships with countries in the pacific and also in southeast asia, that do not necessarily see china as a threats in the same way as that, as they might, as might be the case in washington, it's possibly not a bad thing to have somebody in washington who couldn't put forward, you know, australia's position and, and, you know, maybe have a more nuanced conversation about how different aspects of the relationship with china needs to be. particularly when there's, like i say, in se asia and the pacific that see that see china quite differently and also have white different views about the, the impacts of strategic competition. henry, let me ask you how the u. s. and the usaa relationship with astray. leah is viewed in beijing right now because you were looted to the orchestra, try it out to a security patch that was signed. that was in september last year. obviously a lot happened since then. anthony, blinking, as you also mentioned, is due to visit china early next year. how does china view the security situation now, especially when it comes to trust? what i think the just common done on a cabin road. i mean i was, was him good. busy last monday, singapore the same panel on china and i think it's a great choice can stand china and stand us here, obvious knows how to defend australia interest. so. so i think would be great. however, somebody knows the knows the word to really be a bastard to the us and, and of causal wise in both government on china. so what i think the actually, you know, the blink is come in and i'm sure to be more us off is your car in john's off you may call us. so i think in the australia is far away from you as far we from china there's, there's no, no interest for us here at the company as, as a secured allies of some kind, you know, your best position will be in the middle of it to have the best of a to war rather than really the non one and the read against the other, which is really foolish because john is the largest trading bottom strainer. likelihood australia depends on china also. so, so i think now we are one on the realize that and are doing the writing and so be pleased to see that to, to happen. i think, you know, i would just like to say you have a more strategic dependence and maybe not have a better relation with both u. s. ad china. not really. this is one and against the other. clearly, this is all very, very much part of the process that i'm afraid we'll have to leave our discussion there for now. thank you to all of our guests. tess newton, kane henry, hear you one and alicia garcia, herrera and thank you to for watching. you can see this program again, any time by visiting our website that's out there. i dot com. and to further discussion, do go to our facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is aunt ha, inside story. for me is nancy. hey and whole team here and i from ah ah what's going on is vladimir put his mind right now? 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watching out his era, these are the main stories now ukrainian president lenimosa lansky has visited at washington d. c. he appealed to congress to continue to provide military support for its war with russia, describing it as an investment in global security and democracy. i would like to thank you. thank you very much. thank you for both financial packages you have already provided us with. and there was, you may be willing to decide on your money is not cheery team is an investment in the global security and democracy that we handle in the most responsible way on soon triggered flooding has displaced nearly 65000 people in northern malaysia. evacuations are underway. as more rain is predicted, 5 people have been killed. wells health organization is urging a china to provide more detailed information on the cobra. 19 situation in the country. there's been a record rise in infections after the government began easing restrictions, but fatalities have been low off the china change the criteria for recording virus deaths is only counting deaths from pneumonia or a spiritual failure in its official cave at 19 told the founder of the collapse to crypto currency exchange f t x is in the f b. i custody in the u. s. sam bank, when free was extradited from the bahamas is facing several charges, a one of the biggest financial frauds in us history. the un security council has adopted its 1st resolution on me and mar, in decades, is to mars an end to violence and urges, the military agents are to release all political prisoners including ousted leader and sank. sushi. israel's longest serving prime minister benjamin netanyahu says he has secured a last minute deal to form a new government as he are. he was facing a midnight deadline to arrange a coalition for his weeks of tough negotiations with religious and far right. coalition partners and israeli forces have killed the palestinian man in a raid in the occupied westbank for r student red crescent said 5 others were injured. is really only says it conducted his operation novice to protect incursion over religious side. i israeli settlers, as all the headlines is, continues here and out to sarah. that's after inside story. i joined dodge zeros, part of the launch team in 2006, just as a full for a 1000000 mom march. in that time i've covered wars, revolutions, elections, i'm mandatory course for vendors of correct. so the battle fields are on. most of our job is to get to the truth and empower people through knowledge, australia, and china mark 50 years of diplomatic relations which had been rather frosty of late. near trailing foreign minister has travelled to beijing a step towards rough rational. so what are the sticking points and just how important is their relationship? this isn't tied story ah hello there and welcome to the program. i'm the star theater. now china and australia marking half a century of diplomatic ties, but there hasn't been a lot to celebrate recently. a rift that began in 2019 only deepened over the next 3 years. a strategy is new government set about improving relations. alley on with prime minister anthony alban, easy meeting president. she's in ping at last month's g. 20 summit and bali. chinese trade sanctions do remain in place. but one visit as the 1st by an australian minister in 3 years. and the latest diplomatic offensive indicating a thor and relations is underway. the mark of success is dialogue and so we obviously have a lot of issues to work through and dialogue is a prerequisite working through them. what i would say is what i'd say to minister one account and say counsel. we believe it's in the instance of both countries with the trade impediments to be removed or diplomatic ties between strayer and its major trading partner. china has been strained in recent years. beijing impose sanctions on australian exports in 2020 off the can record for an international inquiry into the origins of curve at 19. those restrictions, notion be applied to several huge is trailing industries, including wine, barley, and coal. beijing was also angered when the previous government under former prime minister got morrison, shutout, telecommunications from chloe from australia's 5 g network. up to 2020 china was the biggest buy of his trailing iron or gas and coal and china has also applied to join a trans specific trade pact. as trailer is already a member and has veto powers over membership applications, or human rights, another area of disagreement. foreign minister penny wong, raise the case of 2 is trillion citizens county jailed in china. journalist chang lay, and all that young john of course are discussed. miss ching ly, and dr. young, we've raised that in every senior level engagement that we are able to and authorize that in each of the discussions i had with the state counsellor. and we advocate for range of things in those discussions. day includes for those students to be being in order with their families as soon as possible. but we also advocate for the observance of functional agreements. and for those is trying to have control access obviously because it is presented some problems you. it is the case. so just rather doubtful that those are strong and should be given a corporate culture access and will continue to advocate for the while the more on this now i'm joined by guests in prison. we have test newton kane . she's the project liza for the pacific hub at griffith university. in beijing is henry who we are one. he's the founder and president of the center for china and globalization. and in type a, we have alicia garcia herero. she's the chief economist for the asian pacific. and the texas that's a french investment bank will welcome to you will thank you for joining us on inside story. now we've had this 90 minute meeting, a very carefully worded press conference. i noted that when she was about to have a meeting this morning, penny wong had said the i stores. but slowly, alicia, what do you make of the melt so far? i think this is basically good news that we're having this, this fiscal meeting after bodily because it shows that, you know, there is possibility for re engagement that and really perhaps means as much as re engage men. rapprochement might be that word, but i think this is not only australia we're seeing, basically the us, we're seeing european member states. everybody's coming and realizing that that, you know, a new cold war is in nobody's interest. and i think this is part of that stories. one chapter in that story, so i'm curious about the timing of this sir, from particularly the chinese side chinese economy is obviously hurting hugely at the moment. it's feeling increasingly isolated because of its 0 covert strategy. was beijing perhaps ready to do this? and the change of government in australia was just a good opportunity to do that. henry? well, i think this is probably the best time as we know that during the last 2 or 3 months, john has actually started the very active or high level the promise. see no precedent. she has actually went to the g, 20 australian leaders there and also cost. so we have the pack, we have a parade on before these are coming now we see form used to come in just great. i think china, australia, fundamentalists have no, no conflict, geopolitical body issues, and it's really on you and, and also i expected the bilateral relations gone, so low so. so i think this is great at high time that we revive the normal relation and maybe less elevate that to a better level. so, so i think it's really a good time and chinese economies. those are starting to a boom again because not of the lifted covey control, and we expect a retaliatory growth of the chinese economy the next year. so i think this is probably the right time to engage and particularly china, australia has a such a, a reactive cannot be bilateral relations. sure. and me, sorry, just to follow up there. i'm curious about how much you think this particular rapprochement from the chinese side has been driven by domestic concerns or not. this is not. i don't think there's any domestic concern related because really, you know, there's 3 months ago, john, top details are starting to around weren't already been in central asia in june 20 and then all the title and all the places. and also we see a parade of before leaders come in for 5. leaders come in november and december and we expect in private market coming probably soon. secretary blinking is coming. so everyone is engaging china. so in that context, i think if you're not doing well actively, it's probably falling up behind so, so i think it's good time domestically, chinese also get up to recover from the covey downs and it's probably the best time i think that so let me, let me bring to hold in here to speak about the strategy and timing of all of this because i also notice that penny wong is just fresh out of the south pacific as well. she's been on a tour of, of nations there and relations with china. and that part of the well, they've also been fairly controversial in some cases they've led to violent riots to what you make of the timing here. i think it's quite interesting timing in the australian context. and as you say, literally last week, minutes to one was with the bypass the delegation in 3 different pacific countries . you know, this time of year tends to be quite quiet in the australian context in terms of media in common trade. so i think that is significant in terms of how the out beneath the government wants this to be portrayed. so yes, it's significant. but even before she left, that one was quite careful to be closing down any great expectations that everything was going to happen at once. she's made it very clear that she sees this is something of a process and certainly, well, i mean, i don't know the issues in the pacific were discuss when she met with accounts in beijing, but certainly a lot of the work that's been done by sen wong, and her colleagues in the region since the change of government has been about trying to reassure pacific partners that australia is interest in the region. and australia is interest in them. is, is more than simply trying to either compete with or contain china in the region. but a number of the things that penny says that she did raise issues around human rights . we had a little bit of that earlier in the show. she also, i believe, raised the treatment of the week in minority. and obviously the ongoing detention of these 2 is trillion citizens, chang lee and dr. young hang. john. these are all very sensitive issues. so basing, but elisha, beijing must have known that this was all going to come up. right? yeah, i mean the thing is that if this happens every time there was somebody there visits, china, i think maybe one has 2 aces, which the canadian hadn't resolved. and i thing is now i time for australia to solve this problem, but it goes beyond, as it said, i mean there's 2 major issues. ah, why is the, the very that australia requests to investigate the origins of coverage which led to of course, the further work of the relation. and now the thing is, many one is going ask chinese opening up at 80 degrees with potential consequence for the rest of the world, because this is a massive change in direction with potential notation. so, you know, there's a lot of things beyond the ones who said that could be discussed also regarding colby's so surely it's not only going to be on the words that we know, but i think it is good that these things are discussed. and i think that's why i still in the visit is, is worth happening by all means some purposes show. i want to take a look at some of the not very nice words that have been said by particularly well, both sides. that particular one side. i was 1.2 at the end of 2020 relations had deteriorated so far that china was actually publicly issuing threats. one chinese official said, and i quote, if you make china the enemy, china will be the enemy. and china, one point listed 14 grievances, it was a leak documents and they included what government funding for so called anti chinese were such as trailing think tanks deliberately spoken to china. hysteria criticizing, trying his behavior when it came to taiwan, hong kong and young as well. as some of them that we've discussed already, henry, what's happened to the grievances from beijing side. they just gone away. why i think you log in, she can't. do you remember the date low? 21st is the exact date of effect 2 years ago and australian child on the established diplomatic ties. and that one, those establish ties. there's only $100000000.00 and total tre. now it's to 200000000000 over and over to a 1000 times has increased this since last past decade past in half a century. so. so than, you know, now we have such a great relation in the past. you know, we have over 100 twin cities and provinces. we have are, you know, still exchanges or booming tourism. i me, austria is the largest trading part of china in large the export market. a chinese, the for fostering the so all those good things, you know, of course, china doesn't know that we don't understand why suddenly the relationship a get sour because, of course our tracing origins is one, probably the reason why they are the other hand in australia. so far away we do have a border issue and now there are series in the, in the quad in the, our course i'll because of nuclear submarines. you know, i mean what, what that for. so, i mean there is, there's lot of misunderstanding, i think, mistrust or has been created in the last number of years. i would probably, you know, on both sides too, but, but, but again, i think it's not as a turning point. the prime is too man to present. she and the other for mr. is willing to come to page into talk are all those you shoes, which is great. i think we need to tag dialogue with the the, you know, the communication so. so i think it's in both country interest will continue this in a pump, puzzled and standing. and then i have a balance that china because i listed it. and one really things they're gonna become chinese nazare. happy about that. we've mentioned a couple of them that really triggered the deterioration here that the very rapid deterioration and of relations. and one of them was the ban on hallway and the other was this, this request for the independent investigation to the origins of co that test. let me ask you, then you're sitting in better than what's actually happened in regards to both of those. well, the well with thing has been, you know, that's, that's, that's had indications in the region as well. so we saw australia takeover essentially offered a fund, a submarine fiber, optic telecommunications cable service, both solomon islands and papa new guinea. and that was essentially, you know, very direct intervention in order to prevent while we're providing that critical infrastructure. and then more recently we've seen the australian government essentially under right telstra to buy out did to sell, which is a mobile telephone company in the region. because there was a, there was a concern. we don't know what that was based on that the, the parent company might sell that to a chinese operate. and so these issue of who is managing, supplying and running telephones and digital infrastructure in the region is one that is still very, very touchy and very sensitive for the australian security community. so clearly, trust has not been built up in that regard. i want to move on to talking trade, henry, you mentioned the huge volume of bilateral trade. let's take a look at some of the numbers in 2021. bilateral trade between the 2 countries came to approximately $231000000000.00 us dollars. china's import from a straight to reach 165000000000. that's up more than 40 percent from the year before. despite the foster relations australian imports from china was $73000000000.00 us dollars, including goods like household appliances and telecoms. equipment and chinese nationals also constitute, as we mentioned, the largest number of international students and inbound tourists. now it's always been renewable that in 2020 a trailer was one of the countries, one of the few developed countries in a while that had a trade surplus with china that had exported more to china than an imported. but then china slapped on those trade restrictions worth what? something like $20000000000.00 in that time. as trailer has found many other markets reads goods, especially for coal and barley. so alicia, let me ask you, how much does the strategy actually need china? well, i think what a straightly, i figured, although this was not known before, china indeed cut or bad. some of are not old, but some of the imports from australia. i think what australia learned is that china bass with 10 of us and really truly need but he doesn't band with chinese. and, and this is ira lauren and the bulk basically of china's imports from australia so that this shop wasn't as big as expected. and on top of that, because the rest of the world is in this energy transition and you know what everybody is looking for guys. everybody is looking for a critical met, minerals and, and that's where australia's standing out anyway, with his chaise in australia, the europeans are trying to conclude a trade agreement, free trade agreement with australia. so in other words, wasn't less painful and that i think it's very important to realize that australia is going to be g indeed. but the service isn't going to be jim, because if it's economist climate and because of chinese economy is actually whooping and improvement is record low. there's no problem with this trend and economy. so that's important to realize anything you allude to that to something that's very critical for china and that's natural resources that china desperate needs. henry, let me ask you this. we've talked a little bit about australian i and or in particular, is china now trying to shore up australian resources. is that part of the motivation for trying to thaw out these frosty relations? no, i don't think so because you know, china is you know, one of the big, the importers that they come by anywhere. and then, i mean, the reason that the gold from australia, because of the joint good relation was last year before. but then if julia is really put china as a potential enemy and have nuclear submarines and aligns with the security of those u as in japan on china. so what, what, what do you think about chinese people felt 1st or do they fail about those things? certainly as this is 2 way street so, so i think that to, you know, knowledge, it's good time that we've turning around but, but it's still, i think that we run through, but i'm slightly confused by what you're saying. that because you're saying that china doesn't need a strategy and i and all, and it's worried about this lack of trust. and when it comes to security, and yet, china is continued importing. it's really 9 or even through these very, very frosty times. so how does that work? what china certainly early, you know, they come by the come by from australia to come by from other countries. i mean, which miss john is still very, very reasonable. they are not stopping all the imports. of course not. and they are still who's you buying from australia, which i think is fine. but we actually, you know, like my think tags a sound of a john or global as we hosted glue a forward are still in training. mister birmingham in 2019, he came to my office, i made a deliver speech, a welcome china to john secret to give you their time. so i think we could do, we have a lot of things to collaborate. and so i think for this region for asia pacific, there's lots of things of what counters come walking together between a channel that you are japan anson here because i have already sign auster, which i was. i'm curious about how this is working out from the australian side when it comes to trade, because now after this conversation, they've agreed to expand high level dialogue, which will now also include presumably between trade ministers. test. how soon do you think we might see any of these trade restrictions being lifted? if at all a optimistic ah, that's not really something i'm in the position to comment on that some a max of for obviously the, i'm sure that now that these not that these dialogues of recommend some sure, but the trade people will be capitalizing on that. and trying to get things moving as soon as possible. and i know that certainly there is a lot of expectation on the part of australian business sleep is that they want to see these. these issues moved along and barriers removed as soon as possible as well. they do indeed, well, we also can't have a conversation about australia and china without mentioning the u. s. and i see that on the eve of this visit prime, this album easy made a rather striking choice to his new us ambassador, the former prime minister, kevin rud, who not only speak mandarin, but also i believe that has the doctorate on. she's in things well view. he's also been heading the asia society in new york for the last few years. alicia is this is trailer, making its priorities in washington clare. well, i have to say indeed, you're quite right daddy. it's a strange choice, but i guess, you know, kevin rat is, is probably good enough to be to also help him. but sort of the you as a mother, he's knowledge and child. i mean, but the, the thing is, i don't know how anyone is going to health. i mean, how is it going to be that he's really not somehow maybe under deadly interfering yet because because the u. s. s such an interesting china so. so that's going to be a tricky ah, whether that was on purpose and there was a reason for that. i really can't tell when it is indeed difficult be. i think even for penny one more her i mean, and i would find it difficult to see. and then a lot of the us let me bring in test here because i'm, i'm not sure that it's near to such a strange choice in australia. there's been a lot of emphasis on, on how to deal with china. how is that going over in australia test? i think the has been this a similar kind of conversation as una would. would it have been better to sent rod to begging because he does have such a strong chinese aspect to his expertise, but he's been resident in the us for quite some time. and obviously as built up some really important networks there. and i think that given, given australia's position in the region and given the importance of australia's relationships with countries in the pacific and also in southeast asia, that do not necessarily see china as a threats in the same way as that, as they might, as might be the case in washington, it's possibly not a bad thing to have somebody in washington who couldn't put forward, you know, australia's position and, and, you know, maybe have a more nuanced conversation about how different aspects of the relationship with china needs to be. particularly with partners like i say, in se asia and the pacific that see that see china quite differently and also white different views about the, the impacts of strategic competition. henry, let me ask you how the u. s. and the usaa relationship with astray. leah is viewed in beijing right now because you were looted to the orchestra, try it out to a security patch that was signed. that was in september last year. obviously a lot happened since then. anthony, blinking, as you also mentioned, is due to visit china early next year. how does china view the security situation now, especially when it comes to trust? well, i think they just common done a cabin road. i mean, i was, was him good. last monday, singapore the same panel on china and i think it's a great choice can stand china and stand us here, obvious knows how to defend australia interest. so. so i think would be great. have somebody knows the knows the word to really be a bastard to us and, and of causal wise in both government on china. so what i think the actually, you know, the blinkers come in and i'm sure to be more us officer, call me johns off, you may call us. so i think in the australia is far away from you as far we from china there's, there's no, no interest for us here at the commune, as, as a secured lives of some kind. you know, your best position will be in the middle of it to have the best of a to war rather than really being on one and read against the other, which is really foolish. because john is the largest trading bottoms trainer likelihood ubs radio depends on china. also so, so i think now we are one on the realize that and are doing the writing and so be pleased to see that to, to happen. i think, you know, i would just like to say you have a more strategic dependence and maybe not have a better relation with both us at china. not only this is one and against the other . clearly, this is all very, very much part of the process that i'm afraid we'll have to leave our discussion there for now. thank you to all of our guests. tess newton, kane henry, hear you one and alicia garcia, herrera and thank you to for watching. you can see this program again, any time by visiting our website that's out there. i dot com. and to further discussion, do go to our facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is an inside story. for me is darcy, hey, am whole team here and i from ah, join the debate. when we talk about climate change in africa, we should focus on adaptation knocked mitigation on our online, at your voice. it shouldn't be exploiting that. what that love, what not is being right now is doing everything that is going to benefit them more revealing new perspectives like getting this out of proportion. no, no. his reach and has power is what is this proportionate? 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him in person. he's reflecting that by making this, the 1st place is visited since the war began. also, lance, his trip comes on the same day that the russian president vladimir putin has in meeting his top military officials to discuss the results of the war. and ukraine so far will release you, you be, we was more listed at our army and military capabilities are increasing the young constantly every day. this process will make no mistake, will not be sped up a personal presidency. nobela warranty has re shuffled part of her cabinets by the warranties appointed a new prime minister and finance minister. they were sworn in just hours after congress approved her request to move elections forward by 2 years. peru has seen widespread protest since former president petro castillo, was impeached and imprisoned. 2 weeks ago, i've gone asked on taliban rulers, have banned all female students from attending university. the latest crackdown on women's rights takes effect immediately. girls have already been banned from middle school and high school. thousands of ambulance staff are going on strike in the u. k. on wednesday, a day after similar industrial action by nurses. up to 100000 nurses was off the job calling for better pay and working conditions. the deadline is looming for the formation of a new israeli government. the incoming prime minister benjamin netanyahu has until midnight local time. to finalize his coalition, australia and china have agreed to more high level talks on trade, human rights, and security, australia for a minister penny wong is in beijing for a talk. so the chinese foreign minister. it's a 1st visit by a top australian diplomats in 4 years. the news hours at the top of the hour right here on al jazeera but coming up next it's inside story. thanks for watching and bye bye for now. ah. estrella and china about 50 years of diplomatic relations which have been rather frosty of late news, straightly and foreign minister has travelled to beijing a step towards rapprochement. so what are the sticking points and just how important is their relationship? this is inside story. ah hello there and welcome to the program. i'm the star theater. now china astray leo, mocking half a century of diplomatic ties, but there hasn't been a lot to celebrate recently. a rift that began in 2019 only deepened over the next 3 is a strategy as new governments that about improving relations. alley on with prime minister anthony alban. easy meeting president. she's in ping at last month's g. 20 summit and bali. chinese trade sanctions do remain in place, but one visit as the 1st by an australian minister and 3 is. it's the latest diplomatic offensive indicating a thor and relations is on the way the mark of success is dialogue and so we obviously have a lot of issues to work through and dialogue is a prerequisite working through them. what i would say is what i'd say to minister one, and i can say counselor, one gate. we believe it's in the interest of both countries with the trade impediments to be removed or diplomatic ties between strayer and it's major trading partner. china have been strained in recent years. beijing impose sanctions on trailing exports in 2020 off the can record for an international inquiry into the origins of curve at 19. those restrictions nationally applies to several huge is trailing industries including wine, barley, and coal. beijing was also angered when the previous government under former prime minister scott morrison, shutout telecommunications, from quote, a from australia is 5 g network. up to 2020 china is the biggest buy of this trailing iron or gas and coal and china has also applied to join a trans specific trade pact. as trailer is already a member and has veto powers over membership applications or human rights, another area is disagreement. foreign minister penny wong, raise the case of 2000000 citizens, county jailed in china. journalist chang lay and all that young hinge on of course are discussed. miss july and dr. young. we raise that in every senior level engagement that we are able to and authorize that in each of the discussions i've had with the state counsellor. and we advocate for range of things in those discussions. day includes for those strivings to be being an artist with their families as soon as possible. but we also advocate for the observance of our functional agreements. and for those just trying to have control access. obviously because it is presented some problems to you. it is the case so just rather doubtful that just trying and should be given a corporate culture access and will continue to advocate for the while. for more on this now i'm joined by i guess in brisbin we have test news and cane cheese. the projects needed for the pacific hub at griffith university in beijing is henry hugh. yeah. why? he's the founder and president of the center for china and globalization. and in type a, we have alicia garcia herrera. she's the chief economist for the asia pacific and the texas. that's a french investment bank. i will welcome to you. well, thank you for joining us on inside story. now we've had this 90 minute meeting, a very carefully worded press conference. i noted that when she was about to have a meeting this morning, penny wong had said the i stores. but slowly alicia, what you make of the melt so far? i think this is basically good news that we're having these, this fiscal meeting after bobby because it shows that, you know, there is a possibility for re engagement that and really perhaps means as much as re engagement. rapprochement might be that word, but i think this is not only australia we're seeing, basically the us, we're seeing european member states. everybody's kind of coming in and realize in that that you know, and you called worries in nobody's interest. and i think this is part of that stories one chapter in that story short. i'm curious about the timing of this, sir, from particularly the chinese side chinese economy is obviously hurting hugely at the moment it's feeling increasingly isolated because of its 0 cobit strategy. was beijing perhaps ready to do this? and the change of government in australia was just a good opportunity to do that. henry? well, i think this is the best time as we know that during the last 23 months, john has actually started the very active high level, the promise, the precedence. she has actually went to the g, 20 australian leaders there and also cost. so we have the pack, we have to a parade of authorities are coming now, is the form used to come in? just great. i think china, australia fundamentally have no, no conflict, geopolitical body issues and it's really on you and. and also i expected the bilateral religion has gone so low so, so i think this is great, a high time that we revive the normal relation and maybe let's elevate that to a better level. so, so i think it's really a good time and trying to economies, those are starting to boom again because not the lifted covey control, and we expect retaliatory growth of the chinese economy in the next year. so i think this is probably a right time to engage and particularly china and australia has a such a reactive cannot be bilateral relations show. and me, sorry, just to follow up that i'm curious about how much you think this particular rapprochement from the chinese side has been driven by domestic concerns or not. this is not, i don't think there's any domestic concern related because really, you know, there's 3 months ago john, top details are starting to around weren't already been in central asia in june 20 and then all the title and all the places. and also we see a parade of before leaders come in for 5. leaders come in november and december and we expect in president mark homecoming probably soon. secretary clinton's comment. so everyone is engaging china. so in that kind of context, i think you're not doing well actively, it's probably 40 up behind so so i think it's good time dramatically. chinese also get up to recover from the colby downs and it's probably the best time i think that so let me, let me bring hold in here to speak about the trailer and timing of all of this because i also notice that penny wong is just fresh out of the south pacific as well. she's been on a tour of nations there and relations with china and that part of the well, they've also been fairly controversial in some cases they've led to violent riots to what you make of the timing here. i think it's quite interesting timing in the australian context, and as you say, literally last week minutes, the wong was with the pots, the delegation in 3 different pacific countries. you know, this time of year tends to be quite quiet in the australian context in terms of media in common trade. so i think that is significant in terms of how the out beneath the government wants this to be portrayed. so yes, it's significant. but even before she left, that one was quite careful to be closing down any great expectations that everything was going to happen at once. she's made it very clear that she said this is something of a process and certainly, well, i mean, i don't know the issues in the pacific were discuss when she met with accounts in beijing, but certainly a lot of the work that's been done by sen wong, and her colleagues in the region since the change of government has been about trying to reassure pacific partners that australia is interest in the region. and australia is interest in them. is, is more than simply trying to either compete with or contain china in the region. but a number of the things that penny says that she did raise issues around human rights . we had a little bit of that earlier in the show. she also, i believe, raised the treatment of the week in minority. and obviously the ongoing detention of these 2 is trillion citizens, chang lee and dr. young hang. john. these are the feel very sensitive issues. so basing, but alicia beijing must have known that this was all going to come up. right? yeah, i mean the thing is that if this happens, every time there was somebody there visits, china, i mean it, i think anyone has to faces which the canadian had a result. and i thing is now i time for a trailer to solve this problem. but it goes beyond, as it said, i mean there's 2 major issues. ah, why is the, the very, that australia request to investigate the origins of coverage which led to, of course, further work of the relation. and now the thing is, anyone is going ask chinese opening up at 80 degrees with potential consequence for the rest of the world, because this is a massive you know, change in direction with potential patients. so, you know, there's a lot of things beyond the ones you said that could be discussed also regarding coffee. so surely it's not only going to be on the worst that we know, but i think it is good that these things are discussed. and i think that's why i so in the visit is, is worth happening by all means some purposes. so i want to take a look at some of the not very nice words that have been said by particularly well, both sides, but particularly one sided. i will, at one point towards the end of 2020 relations that deteriorated so far that china was actually publicly issuing threats. one chinese official said, and i quote, if you make china the enemy, china will be the enemy. and china, one point listed 14 grievances that was a leak document, and they included what government funding for so called anti chinese were such a trillion think tanks deliberately spoken to china hysteria, criticizing china's behavior when it came to taiwan, hong kong and young as well as some of them that we've discussed already. henry, what's happened to the grievances from beijing side. they just gone away. why send me in? she can't do you remember the day? the 21st is the exact date of 50 years ago and australia and china. you stop is given back to pies and that one you stopped your time zone 100 and a total train knowledge to 200000000000 over and over 2000 times has increased since last pass. beckett plus you know, half a century so. so than you know, now we have such a great relation the past, you know, we have over a 120 cities and prophecies. we have still exchanges a booming tories. i mean, it's really the largest trading part of china launch the export market. john is the for foster and so all those good things, you know, of course, china doesn't, you know, we don't understand why. suddenly the relationship gets sour because, of course, tracing origins is one probably the reason why they have not really so far away. we have a border issue and now they are in the quad, the in the are because because of nuclear submarines, you know, i mean what that for. so, i mean there is, there's a lot of reasons stanley, i think he's, trust, has been created in the last number of years. probably yet on both sides too. but, but, but again, i think it's now it's a turning point. the problem is the math, the presidency, and the form is, is willing to come to wage into talk all those issues, which is great. i think we need to dialogue with, you know, communication so. so i think it's in both countries will continue these. 4 problems and standing, and then i have a better understanding of china. and one of the things as china is all very happy about that. we've mentioned a couple of them that really triggered the deterioration here. that the very rapid deterioration of relations. and one of them was the ban on hallway and the other was this, this request for the independent investigation to the origins of code that test. let me ask you that you're sitting in brisbin. what's actually happened in regards to both of those? well, the well with thing has been, you know, this, that, that's, that's had indications in the region as well. so we saw australia takeover essentially off. it's a fund, a submarine fiber, optic telecommunications cable service, both solomon islands and pop and guinea. and that was essentially, you know, very direct intervention in order to prevent while we're providing that critical infrastructure. and then more recently, we've seen the australian government essentially under right house try to buy out did to sell, which is out. so let me pro company in the region because there was a, there was a concern, we don't know what that was based on that the, the parent company might sell that to a chinese operate. and so these issue of who is managing, supplying and running telephones and digital infrastructure in the region is one that is still very, very touchy and very sensitive for the australian security community. so clearly, trust has not been built up in that regard. i want to move on to talking trade, henry, you mentioned the huge volume of bilateral trade. let's take a look at some of the numbers in 2021. bilateral trade between the 2 countries came to approximately $231000000000.00 us dollars. china's imports from australia reached 165000000000, that's up more than 40 percent from the year before. despite the foster relations australian imports from china, west $73000000000.00 us dollars, including goods like household appliances and telecoms. equipment and chinese nationals also constitute, as we mentioned, the largest number of international students and inbound tourists. now it's always been renewable. that in 2020 a trailer was one of the countries, one of the few developed countries in the world that had a trade surplus with a child that had exported more to china than an imported. but then china slapped on those trade restrictions were what something like $20000000000.00 in that time. as trailer has found many of the markets reads goods especially for colon, barley. so alicia, let me ask you, how much does the strategy actually need china now? when i was straightly figured, although this was not known before, china indeed cuts or bad. some of no, but some of the imports from australia. i think what i learned is that china bass with us and really fully need, but it doesn't band with time and me and this is, i don't know or, and the bulk basically of china, the imports from australia. so this shop wasn't as big as expected. and on top of that because the rest of the world isn't this energy transition. and you know, everybody's looking for guys are looking for a critical met, minerals and that's where trailers standing out anyway for the chaise in australia are trying to conclude a trade agreement, free trade agreement with australia. so in other words, wasn't, that's painful. and that, i think it's very important to realize that those trade is going to be indeed, but that's going to be jim because if it's economist climate and because i'm trying to call them is actually an improvement is low. there's no problem with those trade in economy. so that's important to realize. elisha, you allude to that to something that's very critical for china and that's natural resources that china desperately needs. and we let me ask you this. we've talked a little bit about australian i and or in particular, is china now trying to shore up this trailing resources? is that part of the motivation for trying to throw out these ferocity relation? no, i don't think so because sir, you know, china as a, you know, the, one of the big, the importers that they can buy anywhere. and then, i mean, the reason that the gold from australia, because the joint good relation was ross really before. but then if australia is really put china as a potential enemy and have nuclear submarines and aligns with the security is those you as a japan on child? so what, what, what do you think about chance people felt 1st at the, how do they fell about those things? suddenly there's, this is to history. so, so i think that, you know, now it's good time that we're turning around but, but still, i think that we would have learned when to actually then i'm, i'm slightly confused by what you're saying there. because you're saying that china doesn't need a strategy. and i and, or, and, and it's worried about this, a lack of trust. and when it comes to security, and yet, china is continued importing australian, i, in or even through these very, very frosty times. so how does that work? what china certainly early you know, they come by the come by from australia to come by from other countries. i mean, which miss john is still very, very reasonable. they are not stopping all the imports. of course not. and they are stupid, you buying from australia, which i think is fine. but we actually, you know, like my think tanks a sort of a john, a global as we hosted to a former r sewland trading mister birmingham in 2019. he came to my office and made a deliver speech a welcome john, john, secret to give you that time. so i think we could do, we have a lot of things to collaborate. and so i think for this region for asia pacific, there's lots of things that work counters can walk in together between a channel that you are japan and here because i have already sign auster, which i was. i'm curious about how this is working out from the australian side when it comes to trade, because now after this conversation, they've agreed to expand high level dialogue, which will now also include presumably between trade ministers. test. how soon do you think we might see any of these trade restrictions being lifted? if at all a optimistic ah, that's not really something i'm in the position to comment on that some a max of for obviously the, i'm sure that now that these now that these dialogues have re commenced. i'm sure that the trade people will be capitalizing on that and trying to get things moving as soon as possible. and i know that said, there is a lot of expectation on the part of australian business leaders that they want to see these. these issues moved along and barriers removed as soon as possible as well. they do indeed, well, we also can't have a conversation about australia and china without mentioning the u. s. and i see that on the eve of this visit prime, this album easy made a rather striking choice to his new us ambassador, the former prime minister, kevin rud, who not only speaks fluent mandarin, but also i believe that his folks, the doctor is on, she's in things well view. he's also been heading the asia society in new york for the last few years. alicia is this is trailer, making its priorities in washington clare. well, i have to say indeed, you're quite ready. it's a strange choice, but i guess, you know, kevin rat is, is probably good enough to be to also help him. but sort of the you as a mother, he's knowledge and child. i mean, but the, the thing is i don't know how anyone is going to head off. i mean, how is it going to be that he's really not somehow maybe admittedly interfering yet because because the u. s. s such an interesting china so. so that's going to be a tricky ah, whether that was on purpose and there was a reason for that. i really can't tell when it is indeed a difficult be. i think even for penny one more her. i mean, i would find it difficult to see, and then a lot of the us, let me bring in test here because i'm, i'm not sure that it's viewed as such a strange choice in australia. there's been a lot of emphasis on, on how to deal with china. how is that going over in australia t s? i think that has been this a similar kind of conversation as una would. would it have been better to sent rod to begging because he does have such a strong chinese aspect to his expertise, but he's been resident in the us for quite some time. and obviously as built up some really important networks there. and i think that given, given australia's position in the region and given the importance of australia's relationships with countries in the pacific and also in southeast asia, that do not necessarily see china as a threats in the same way as that, as they might, as might be the case in washington, it's possibly not a bad thing to have somebody in washington who couldn't put forward, you know, australia's position and, and, you know, maybe have a more nuanced conversation about how different aspects of the relationship with china needs the securely with partners like i say, in se asia and the pacific that see that see china quite differently and also have white different views about the, the impacts of strategic competition. henry, let me ask you how the u. s. and the usaa relationship with astray. leah is viewed in beijing right now because you were looted to the orchestra, try it out to a security patch that was signed. that was in september last year. obviously a lot happened since then. anthony, blinking, as you also mentioned, is due to visit china early next year. how does china view the security situation now, especially when it comes to to trust? well, i think they just come and on a cabin road. i mean, i was with him last monday, singapore the same panel on china and i think it's a great choice can stand china and stand us here, obvious knows how to defend australia interest so. so i think would be great. have somebody most knows the world to really be a basle to us and, and of causal wise in both government on china. so what i think the actually, you know, the blinkers come in and i'm sure to be more us off is your car in john's off. you may come to us. so i think in the australia is far away from you as far we from china there's, there's no, no interest boss here at the company as, as a secured lives of some kind. you know, your best position will be in the middle of it to have the best of a to, or rather than really the non one and read against the other, which is really foolish. because john is the largest trading bottoms raina likelihood ubs radio depends on china also. so. so i think now it, we are one of the realize that and are doing the writing. and so be pleased to see that to, to happen. i think, you know, i would just like to say you have a more strategic dependence and maybe not have a better relation with both us and china. not only this is one and against the other. clearly, this is all very, very much part of the process that i'm afraid we'll have to leave our discussion there for now. thank you to all of our guests. tess newton, kane henry, hear you one and alicia garcia, herrera and thank you to for watching. you can see this program again, any time by visiting our website that's out there. i dot com. and to read the discussion, do go to our facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. remember, you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is an inside story. for me is nancy. hey, i'm whole team here and i for ah, ah, a with join the debate when we talk about climate change and i think i wish would focus on adaptation knocked mitigation on air or online at your voice. it shouldn't be explained like what, what not is being right now is being everything that is going to benefit them more revealing new perspectives like getting without a proportion. no, no, his region has power is what is that proportionate? 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