contributions to and influence over her famed family dynasty. this program is about an hour. >> host: barbara perry it's good to be here with you talking about the kennedys. but that is having grown up catholic i think the kennedys have the particular resonance for us but i wanted to start right off in ask you, you're a supreme court presidential scholar. how did you get interested in rose? >> guest: i've been interested in the kennedy family since i was a little tyke read when i was four years old my mother to me and my brothers to downtown louisville. she piled the center 56 chevrolet and drove us downtown to the courthouse. she was completely drawn to this new candidate on the scene in the presidential race senator john f. kennedy. >> host: do you think because he was catholic a little bit? >> guest: i have to think i that was a major part of it in addition to which he was about her age so she was the new generation to which the torch was being passed that i point out what she loved history and politics she wasn't as active in grassroots politics and didn't particularly like driving downtown on a very busy streets, so i know that it was his charisma and probably as catholicism and let's face it is handsome looks. >> host: he was a pretty good-looking guy. >> guest: i think she was drawn to that too so she got there asked her earlier with bsf 4-year-old and my two older brothers and put us right at the podium so we would be sure to see him. >> host: oh my gosh. that's great. he did a lot of research at the jfk library after they opened up some records. tell me about that because that gives you something new, some new insights into rows. >> guest: this book is the one that is fully based on her papers that opened up in the fall of 2006 and it's a cute story the way that happen in terms of my finding out about it. i've been teaching at the college for many years and had published of oakland jacqueline kennedy and her first ladyship. my students knew that i was interested in all things kennedy and i happened to be at the university of louisville which is my alma mater and i got this e-mail from a former student and alum of sweet writer college and she said did you see that rose kennedy's papers have just been open? i said i hadn't seen it so i went to the article and started devouring it. then i decided this has to be my next project in between the supreme court scholarship. >> host: in those boxes there were letters to her children and some of them were quite scalding. i even enjoyed the fact that she was after john kennedy when he was in office to shape up a little bit in how he presented himself and his manners. tell me about those letters. >> guest: first of all these boxes, there were 250 archival boxes and then i went to another 50 of her family photographs in the book contains a number of photographs that are rare and that it never been seen before. i was just amazed at the letterwriting prodigiousness of rose kennedy. from the time she was a young woman and in addition to the 250 boxes of her official papers i came across on the internet private letters that were held in private collections and i have been able to gather some of those together as well. >> host: that no one has written about? >> guest: that no one has written about. there are at least a half-dozen that she wrote over the time she was a teenager through her childhood friend including about how she wanted to go to wellesley college which was a plan afforded by her father honey fitz all the way to middle age when she talks about her husband's time in hollywood and even mentions gloria swanson. so the letters in addition to the ones i found, the ones that are officially opened at the kennedy library yes, rose was a typical victorian mother always interested in how her children looked and behaved in their manners and she never gave up until she literally could no longer write sadly in the later part of for years. she had strokes and she became an invalid but up until that point for all of her motherhood she was constantly after the children to be better and in fact to be in a victorian kind of way as perfect as they could be. >> host: so that word taurean, she very much tried to to fit herself into that mold even though all around her things were changing. she was born in 1890, bright? the suffrage movement was going on in her 20s and early teens but she didn't didn't step into those roles. she kept a very victorian role. why do you think that is? >> guest: i think because she was raised in such a conservative household and a conservative catholicism at that time, conservative society. she was a woman. she was a girl so there was no way she was going to be trained to be the kind of public officeholder that her father was in that her sons would become. having said that, you think your life is filled with paradoxes and that is one of them. while she was not a feminist and did not again as a suffrage act, she pushed the boundaries as far she could within those parameters her family and society and her religion and push them as far she could to become the focal spokesperson for the kennedy family whenever possible. and she was trained to do that by her father honey fitz so she would go out on the campaign trail with him when she was a teenager. she in some ways was pushing the envelope as they say but in other she was certainly not a suffragette or a feminist by any stretch of imagination. >> host: before we talk about the role she played in forming that incredible family that may go to something you said about wellesley. what do you think was important about her father not letting. there? >> guest: the story was she had her heart set on going to wellesley. she was an a student coming from high school. she went to the dorchester high school. there was definitely intellect. she was a very bright woman and she herself strove for perfection in all things so she looked trying to be the perfect student and usually lived up to her own high standards. she thought she was ready to go wellesley and probably was. the story is that the archbishop of austin encountered her father the mayor austin and said this wouldn't be a very good idea politically for you, the catholic mayor, the average catholic mayor of boston to send your eldest child to a non-catholic institution so that afforded her plan and she expressed to doris kearns goodwin later in life that was one of the saddest moments of her life when she found that out and that she regretted it for the rest of her life. >> host: this is a woman who did not expressed much regret. >> guest: i often point out the picture on the front of the book, at first i was distracted by the goblet in the forefront that i decided it was the perfect metaphor for rose kennedy kennedy. folks will notice its exact a half-full with water and that was how rose usually viewed life. she was the eternal optimist. that doesn't mean in private she didn't have sad moments but generally speaking she tried to keep this optimistic up beat approach to life and try to have her children do that as well. in addition not being able to go to wellesley her father to add insult to injury center away to it crushing combat abroad. >> host: a convent? >> guest: not that she was going to be, nun because she had fallen in love with her future husband as teenagers. you think that's part of the reason that honey fitz sent her abroad to get her away from joe kennedy. the kennedys and fitzgeralds were not always political allies in boston politics so honey fitz was not completely approving of joe kennedy. >> host: they were rivals at one point. >> guest: this was a problem for rose's father two-seater fall in love with joe kennedy and he picked out a suitor for her and wanted her to marry a neighbor boy who was also catholic and irish and was doing well in the business world. his parents were in construction so honey fitz thought that would be the perfect match but rose was not to be deterred even by what started as two years at a convent and she persuaded her father to send it back to the united states after one year. >> host: in her own way it's an independent spirit expressing itself already. >> guest: i find it ironic because when her daughter kathleen decide she's going to marry billy hartington during world war ii -- this is kids the effervescent child of rose and i think in many ways like her mother but oftentimes that creates conflicts between parents and children. so i think it was ironic that rose didn't seem to remember how in a sense she thwarted her parents wishes by marrying joe kennedy and kid was not to be denied and of course she did very billy hartington. sadly the marriage only lasted for four months and he was killed in europe after the invasion of 1944. >> host: lets talk about joe. joe gets a lot of credit for his family and he is at page or go figure and larger than life and even some of the sons gave him credit for spurring his family on to greatness but how did that marriage work because your book makes the point and you see a lot of it in the research you have done that rose was a partner and was a significant player especially in joe's absences informing the family. >> guest: i would say their marriage was built on love. there's no doubt about that. i think they both loved each other very much him and by looking at rose's letters as well as nine children, there is definitely definitely love fair and joe's letters to his wife are very expressive and very warm at times and very loving, in some way more than rose's to him. you have to start with her teenage romance that i don't think of her laughter. the concept of a first love and teenage that the puppy love that did mature into adult loved. i think rose kept that with her always. we know that her husband was unfaithful to her and so that was a cross to bear as rose would have said. it was not a dealbreaker though. we think that in 1920 after rose had her fourth child, that she left home and went back to her home, her father's home and said i can't do this anymore. we don't know all of the details. we don't know if she was just overwhelmed by having four children in five years or was it that she was having some postpartum depression? was it that she worried about her husband? he was building a business career so it even if he had not been unfaithful he was gone a lot so she was just frustrated and supposedly her father honey fitz said to her you are a catholic woman, you are in a catholic marriage. you must go home and make this marriage work. certainly she did for over 40 years. >> host: it was not an option for her. >> guest: it was not enough for her and i've checked with catholic clergy today and i asked what if some of -- came today and we would say what a priest would have center in the 1920s. it's not that different. you are married and you have made this choice and now you must go home and make this marriage work and bring up your children in the faith. roasted that but that caveat. we must say she absented herself a lot times from the household. sometimes staying within the same bounds of the household so when the family spent his summers in hyannis she had a little cottage, a prefab cottage. >> host: her own sort of space. >> guest: her own space so she could get away from what she describes as the boisterous miss of her own children that she couldn't air. the famous football games that she said i went to harvard for all games and i interested real foot wall but she said i didn't know what they were playing. all i know was it was loud and noisy and she would retreat to this cottage on the beach. then a hurricane came and swept it away so they put another one up and so another hurricane came. she joked about it and said after two hurricanes i decided this was not meant to be and i was not going to have my cottage on the beach anymore so she savages went to paris. >> host: she traveled a lot. >> guest: she traveled a lot. she loves company to her so she couldn't wait every year to get to paris to see the latest fashions so she would go three and four times a year before the war to get new fashions, ring them home and she just love travel. she had done this with her father. she had gone on political trips with him in the united states and to south in latin america. which was very an in usual for women in her generation. she had the wanderlust from the time she was a young girl. she was very proud of the fact that she spoke fluent french and german which he perfected washoe is the the prussian convent making the best of a bad situation which would become her mantra in life. once she married this was a way to escape the boisterous miss of the children and perhaps some of the upset over some of the weaknesses in her marriage. and in some ways perhaps also a form of birth control because of course the catholic church would would not allow it artificial contracepcontracep tion. >> host: she thought mine was enough trouble play. >> guest: she thought mine was enough and she maintained her humor about that. she was on the show in the 1970s and he brought up that that -- had 11. she said if i would have known it was a competition i would have had more than nine. >> host: there was one trip he wrote about that they went to russia and that was unusual for women. did rose have a daughter? >> guest: rouson kit in 1937. >> host: was that rose just wanting to see russia? >> guest: her son in the app lover i joe junior had gone to england and joe's seniors requests and planning job wanted both of his eldest sons joe junior and jack to go study with a socialist at the london school of economics because even though joe senior was the ultimate epitome of a capitalist he said to his sons you need to know what are the ways of the future and social is maybe one of them. absolutely. the year between prep school and when joe junior went to harvard, he went to london to study at lse and then spent some time in the soviet fact-finding and would report back to his dad what he saw there. rose was so taken with joe junior's reports that she decided that she would go. her daughter kitts said why can we go to italy like all the other well-heeled mothers and daughters. she said will we have been to italy. off they went in 1937 imagine at the height of the stalinist era to the soviet union. she was a very venturesome woman. >> host: you mentioned she'd like to paris and going to see fashion and that reminded me that she was quite the image maker and stage manager of the family. i love how honest you are book is about that and how important was to her. can you talk about that a about that a little bit? >> guest: as i often say i don't mean to indicate that rose had a more significant role than she did. you've mentioned it was a patriarchal family to be sure sober husband ruled the roost and of all things they had two sons to begin with so when the sons came of age and the sons ruled the roost as well and they went into their careers first in the military and joe junior was killed in the war in 1944 but jack and bobby and teddy it was the man always who were running the show. i would say if you ran credits for the kennedy family and the kennedy legacy it would be joe quite appropriately you had a career in hollywood as a producer. joe kennedy senior would be listed as the executive reducer and rose would have almost all of the other duties. she would need the stage manage. she would have been the best girl and the dialogue coach and certainly the wardrobe mistress. she would have would have had all of the other roles. the argument that i make in the book is that as the men began to disappear from the stage, rose's roll gets larger and larger in what she had done but that point is taken all the typically female roles and work them to the hilt and was ready to take over and become if you will the executive producer when necessary. >> host: with that sense of creating an image, that came from rose a lot, with the "life" magazine cover stories and i remember a tv show that put on talking with the kennedys. it seemed like that, creating an image of the family was important to her but also important to the family, the legend of the family. >> guest: it's so true. it starts in 1937 as joe senior so they are billed as a new deal family and newspapers began to show joe and rose and their nine children or however many are on the scene at the time wind up in stairstep. >> host: they were just captivated. >> guest: i say as if it you would have had john and kate plus eight. the kennedys were the first reality show and joe senior because he had his hollywood career and he wanted the family to have this public image, he was pushing as well but this is where joe and rose are on the same page. they are on the same script and rose who is attempting to make the family looked perfect is the perfect person to follow the lead of joe senior and to the point where when they first appear in 1937 and newspapers put the children in stairstep fashion just simply lined up one of the major photographers on broadway hal fife is his name, he writes to mrs. kennedy and he is noted for taking beautiful portraits of stars. he says you have a beautiful family but i don't think this is the best way to present them. he said ring them into my studio he said i will put them in a way that is much more becoming. rose was on that immediately and one of the most famous photographs of her was a portrait taken by mr. fife that jack kennedy been put in his room in his harvard dormitory when he was in the dormitory. this could even then they were shooting pictures of the family. >> guest: as they went to london and joe becomes the u.s. ambassador, than they were huge celebrities and now not only on the american stage but on the world stage. you mention the sheer number of children. that made them stand out and that made them different but such beautiful children and handsome children, also active at all different age ranges and rose herself who prompted someone to say they believed in the stork once they first met her knowing she had nine children and cat this svelte girlish petite figure that she worked hard on. i seen the book she may have had some body image issues because she was very careful about what she ate and it was important for her to maintain this girlish figure. she liked nothing better when she got over to be confused with her daughters. >> host: you mentioned the index card she kept where she kept a record of their weights and adjusted what they were fed. according to how much weight they had gained? >> guest: she had gone out when they were children and bought an index card locks. this was the other thing she was devoted to us their health. if you think of it she's only two generations removed from the great potato famine of the 1840s when people were dying in droves and her father was worn in the tenements of a north end. rose obviously gets to move out of there with her father and for her children it's all about health and fresh air. from the time these children are born she is pushing them in strollers and taking toppers out with her. i'm one of these walks she famously goes into a stationery store and buys an index card box and buys the index cards and begins to keep by hand much his parents would keep material now on a computer, she is writing down their weight. every weekend she would weigh each child and keep tabs tabs on the waiting she would also record their religious milestones, first communion and their confirmations, any kind of shots. there weren't any vaccines then and she worried so much about their health at any medical procedure she would write down. she wouldn't just keep a record of it. she was constantly trying to as you say gauge their way. if someone was perhaps gaining weight she would cut down on their calories. if someone is in jack's case as a boy was always very ill and tends to be painfully thin in this worried herself. she would say i would give him cream instead of something less fatty in terms of milk. she would give him the juice of the roast beef because she thought that would tell that this body. when he was chronically late for dinners and she had this very victorian rule. the meal would start without the light child and that child would have to start in whatever course was being served but she said he would sneak back into the kitchen and charm the cooks to give him the part of the mail that he missed. >> host: that's funny. i remember reading stories that they used to have a map they pulled down sometimes in the dining room to get the kids g. of political lessons. was rose part of that or was that all of joe? did rose try to stimulate them and get them a interested in politics? >> guest: she did that as we discussed before about the page are key. if joe senior was there and he was home for business then he ran the dinner discussions. but if rose was there and he was gone as he often was, then she would run the show and she would run the dinner conversations. she tended not to focus as much on geopolitical issues for theories of international relations. she tended to us the kids and quiz them about church issues and if they had gone to mass that sunday, if it was a sunday, what was the celebration that sunday. .. she is first and foremost a roman catholic. she was red as a staunch iris cash that woman. she would tell stories in later life about her of her own mother who was six children during the yearly celebration and commemoration for 40 days, the six children would be brought into the living room and misses it cherub would have to kneel on the hardwood floor and say the rosary. brose said while that was somewhat painful to be kneeling for the times it took for the rosary, every night that was somewhat of a punishment she thought as well and that was appropriate. but she said in later life, she would tell her children if europe's fact, if there's a tragedy, she said i was so rather they are the rosary rather than turning her head through cigarette and a jury. the children were claiming that help to keep their weight in check, which he also taught them to do. i heard that as well purchase it if only they would pray the rosary, that would be much better. there are stories that her daughter pat had an emergency appendectomy, was not home an infection set in. before they pressure back for another surgery, roses parade the rosary over pat. and away it sounds a bit unsophisticated i think to us today, but i can remember my own mother. when i was about six i had a fever and my mother and religious models to my pajamas as a means of helping to get beyond the illness. this is something that clearly was indoctrinated in my own other in the same generation of kids. i know my grandmother, who would've been in the generation of rows. much of it is thus on weekends, she would remove herself from the family, whatever we were doing. she would disappear you wonder, where's grandma? would find her in the quiet living room praying the rosary. so this is a great source of comfort. attack killed the rosary center had gave her comfort. >> host: do you think that catholicism, because john kennedy was our first catholic president. do you think that helped create the east coast, the kennedy ethos of taking care of others, a contributory life and how that might have expressed itself their politics? >> guest: i think it did hear it certainly kennedy, the only brother to live to write a memoir culture compost that came out literally the day he died and you've written about teddy and the impact of religion on him. he specifically said in true compass, his memoir that the gospel of matthew, chapter 25, about corporal works of mercy, closing the, tending to the sick, on a non-but that is what brose was committed to. i have to say i don't find a lot of examples in her early life where she is taking her children to examples of how they can partake corporal works of mercy. i think she taught that he does. we also have to remember that she raised her children in peru eradicated catholicism which was more about self-denial than reaching out to others. by giving her children that core of catholicism, we see a particularly in bobby and teddy and their policies, which were post-vatican ii about reaching out to the underprivileged. >> host: taking care of themselves who cannot take care of others. that's really interesting. throughout her life, she experienced a lot of tragedies. i wonder how her faith helped her through those. can he say more about that? we are going to take a break pretty soon. >> guest: well, rose return immediately to religion and to her faith that rosary. i cynosure get word that one of her children had been injured as in the case of bobby when she heard he had been shot, she was off to church to pray. and when he passed away the next day, first thing she did was go off to mass and matsushita electric chat with killed as well. she went to mass every day, but she found great comfort they are, particularly because the altar had been dedicated to joe junior when he was killed in the war. >> host: let's take a break there and come back and talk about the kennedys more. just go okay. >> host: we are back with barbara perry. thanks for being here. i wanted to jump into what a great campaigner rose was. teddy, when i was researching says rose was the best campaigner in the family. i wonder what you thought about that. she helps out with john's campaign and bobby's campaign. they considered her kind of a secret weapon, to make? >> guest: they surely did. for good reason. she was the best campaigner and they were all very good at it. she had started this as she liked to point out when she was a little girl, five or six years old. in the 1890s, her dad had been in the u.s. congress, u.s. house of representatives. she liked to say she'd been this population see was a little girl and loved it. as she went into teenage head, mentioned earlier she would go out with her father when he was campaigning. >> host: sometimes taken the place of her mother. just go she did. who is really introverted. first embraced the limelight. she had the interesting combination of her parents, that there is a certain side that wanted to be solitary and that's when she would go to work out a chunk of each. she did when traveling alone. and help her cope. it helped to remove herself from a situation painful to her. it helped remove herself from unlimited childbirth. but she also loved the smell of the crowd. she looked to be on stage. so from the time jack ran in 1946 for the u.s. house of representatives, they would begin to bring rose out. she could tell the story about how he had been limited in the war and was a war hero, how she had lost a son in the war, that she was a gold star mother and jack to tell people that, too, so rose could really reach out to women. remember that jack was not married until much later in life. he started his campaign in 1946. he didn't marry until 1963. there is no spouse for him to bring out. so we also have to keep in mind that her husband, joe senior, had become politically toxic when he said i'm undiplomatic angst about the united state and britain possibly losing the war. >> host: do you think joe had political ambitions? >> guest: i do, i do. there was tories who want to be the first irish catholic president of the united states is moving in that direction with his contacts in the new joe administration and certainly having been ambassador. that is not viewed as having been highly successful tenure there. he ended it on this very sour note as saying things that were very undiplomatic about the u.s. and britain. he really had to a behind-the-scenes and obviously he worked behind the scenes for the remaining sons and put his money into their campaigns. he transferred his ambition to them and he was the case cottages. most of the time behind the scenes, rose could be brought out. she had the added unfitted pete rose fitzgerald kennedy. in boston, and campaign bahnsen, she could link to her popular father and the namesake for her son. joe was not up on this sounds very much. if you look through the photos, you will very rarely the. indeed, when jack is nominated in 1960, joe was in los angeles, where the convention was. he has to stay hidden from view in a rented home they were a living. when kennedy goes to the convention hall to accept the nomination, he brings his mother and she goes out onto the podium with him and she waves to the crowd. jack and his dad only appear the day after the election when all is said and done and all is over. joe comes out and there is the famous portrait of the whole family at hyannisport, all of pro and a close victory of jack. >> host: he threw the screen parties when jack was first running. didn't rose and her daughters inserted these people they feel like they could come meet royalty. was it not part of their appeal? >> guest: it was. they were called tea parties. they started in 1946, the very first one for the congressional campaign. and then they just kept doing these two senate campaigns. when jack defeated henry cabot lodge, which was an upset in 1952, lodge was quoted as saying it was those tea parties that did me in. you are right to say first of all, women love to come to those because they could meet bypasses were royalty in the united states and the fact the kennedy family had rubbed elbows during their time in prewar england. so women would be giving these engraved invitations. come meet the kennedys that this tea. women were known to go buy dresses. some of them even formal. wonderful photographs at the penalty library lineup in the day ballrooms of the finest hotels in town and cities are on it. they would be rose and the receiving line, one or two of her daughters and jack sometimes hazardous that tacking it onto crutches, which at this mothers that, only helped his image because older women wanted -- john women wanted to marry him before he married jackie. >> host: the kennedys used their celebrity to further their political career. >> guest: they were the epitome of the modern era of the merging of celebrity and politics and charisma appeared in media for that matter. >> host: jacks candidacy for president he was at a time when it was a course in the country and its effect on, life magazine was a real key to their popularity early on. about the time they were becoming popular. >> guest: it literally begins as they come into the roosevelt administration that chose first positions in the new deal and off to england they go. you and i talked about the fact that teddy is to say life magazine with her family scrapbook. life magazine just love the kennedys. and why not. they were in a handsome, beautiful family. they were doing interesting cavities and interesting things that have privatized. obviously we didn't know everything going on, but certainly in the public eye, the sport and figure and the celebrity hood at all that would be a part of hollywood at various times but the president interest in the rat pack, the better comment better. there is always disclosed that the kennedys is a very slick, glossy, big page newsstand magazine just love to follow them around. as you say, you had television on that. i point to the fact that in 1952, when eisenhower was elected the first time, the statistics i read showed 20% of american households had televisions. by the time kennedy was elected in 1960, then it got up to 80%. the kennedys, with her beautiful look and charisma have been to merge onto the scene with modern media and modern television. >> host: images are more important. >> guest: app so they were. the first debate with richard nixon proved that historically. >> host: segued off that, you think rose gave growth to camelot for serta created that mythology. >> guest: i think you have to give rose quite a bit of credit. we know jackie coined the term the week after president kennedy's assassination in the famous interview. but it's rose who has that kind of loyalty conflict going with the family and making them such a beautiful presence on the world stage in the american stage. she helped jackie had the material to work with it seems to me. i would call her perhaps the mother of camelot and jackie was the queen. >> host: when john kennedy was assassinated and not whole image system kind of came crashing down, how did she handle that? >> guest: anyone can imagine just how horrible that would eat to lose a child to that kind of violence. >> host: after losing show. >> guest: the apple of her eye, joe junior. cake has been taken in a plane crash in 1948. so rose is literally seen her children almost in earth order disappeared from the scene. not only that, but 1964, rose wrote in her journal, and this is unusual for her because she usually try to be positive and optimistic. this would've been in the summer of 64, just after his assassination. she writes about what it's like that summer and she says, gone are the presidential helicopters it was so look forward to every weekend, bringing my son, the president and his children run out to him. gone are those days. she missed that and she says wistfully gone are the days -- when we were set to be the most powerful family in the world. it's very revealing. it's both human and public as well. she even mentions that they'll try to get together and are most irish wake style that summer. john kennedy, joan bennett kennedy, his first wife was a very good pns. so she would sit and play at the hyannisport home and they would all sing the old tunes they loved, the old irish songs. rosato on point, we started singing one of jack's favorites. she said afterward dissolved in tears and ran from the room. i thought that was the most -- kind of a pre-opera culture, where everyone goes on television and talks about their pain and grief and not curtail is there to help them. again, very thick tour in for this family to hide his grief. >> host: kennedys don't cry. rose tried to follow that as well. so it was a hard time for her that she gets through by her faith and by trying to be with family but sometimes going up to europe in trying to get away from things. and yet she was in europe going around and trying to raise money for the kennedy library. she was still remembering her son in a positive way. she told the story about how the manager of the ritz hotel in paris where she always stayed came up to her and burst into tears. she would try to be strong for everyone, reassuring and people would break down because of their sadness over the loss of kennedy, her son. >> host: you point out she was fairly humanistic research of medication to help her get through it. that gives you a more three-dimensional picture of her. in public, she was very stoic and somehow saw the country through their grief with her nerve and ability to carry on. in private she did have elements where she really was in a great deal of pain. >> host: >> guest: she was a lifelong omni- atkin is very sensitive to noise. she always had trouble sleeping and she told the story when jack was in the south pacific in the pacific theater of world war ii, that she would wake up in a sweat when her heart palpitating in the middle of the night because she would have these nightmares about his speed loss. this is before joe was lost in the european theater and before jack was sunken almost lost. she was anticipating what could happen if a mother would. after all the things she feared would happen begin happening, it had an even greater impact on her ability to sleep that she would have nightmares. so she returned to farmers verticals and sleeping pills to help her get through that. >> host: as your portrait documents the human moment, it seems to me, you said this to me that makes you think she was even more courageous than we realize because she did have to deal with a great deal of misery and pain. it wasn't that she just pushed it away, that she tried to get past it. >> guest: she did. but the combination having to turn to pharmaceuticals, i do think that shows to me how courageous she was because i was in grade school and high school at that time and my mother gave me as a gift of the memoir, times to remember. i remember my mother using rose kennedy as an example and role model for all of us that here's this woman who has this deep faith and even when that didn't happen, i'm not going to say she does have lots of money and that helps, but only gives her more time to worry about the things. of course at that time, rose doesn't talk about taking pharmaceuticals, but now that i see that is a complete portrait of her, and makes her seem more human, it more courageous than in public she was able to put on the stoic person, help the country along with her daughters in law, as they would encounter tragedies to make the country strong and then go on. i she would always say, we mourn the dead, but we go on the living. >> host: one of the things the kennedys did quite well i thought was took a personal tragedy and then try to do something about it in a public way on a national scale. i wonder if you could talk a little bit about how rose towards the later part of her life got involved in trying to do something about mental retardation and speak out about it, but that it took a while and that came from, i assume, her experience with her daughter, rosemary. >> guest: indeed, her daughter, rosemary, porticos described at the time she got older and is manifesting developmental disabilities and lower i.q., experts told rose this would have been in the 1920s that rosemary was mentally. >> host: developmental disabilities? >> guest: they manifested themselves to her mother a very basic ways, that she learned to walk at a later age than her two older brothers. she was the oldest girl or in, we should add, at the height of the spanish flu epidemic in 1918. but she didn't learn to talk as rapidly as the boys. she didn't learn to read and write. but she did right, and a larger mother she was writing from the right side of the page to the left. in modern times, we might think it was simply a learning disability of some sort. but the combination of these things, and you can see photographs, for example, of toddler rose mary with her sibling and kathleen is perhaps one years old and she is being held up and walking, but her sister, two years older is also held up and walking. so her physical slowness as well as mental slowness and the kennedys were told he she had this mental retardation. the kennedys were way ahead of the game in attempting to mainstream her because they were told, you have to send her off to an institution. they did not institutionalize her in so many come in many years later when many people know she had a lobotomy that joe kennedy senior had ordered for her in 1941 without consulting rose. >> host: she didn't tell rose? >> guest: is hard to know, he didn't tell rosie was going to do this. >> host: was she upset to that? >> guest: rose did not leave a record of her feelings about that with a couple of exceptions, that she does explain how she felt about it and that she did regret it for the rest of her life and was angry at her house and because of it. and then, and he came upon a little interview she did with alicia brogan, who was at one time married to fdr junior. new rose kennedy and the kennedy family. in the early 70s, felicia went down to palm beach and stayed with rose a day or two and interviewed her for a book she was doing call doers and dowagers. about great matriarchs in america. she asked -- felicia asked arose about rosemary and said you don't talk much about her in rose burst into tears and became choked up. this would have been 30 years after the procedure at which point rosemary did have to be institutionalized because the lobotomy went terribly wrong. we should say two things. one is this was thought to be in 1941 the procedure that try to minimize anxiety and depression, which rosemary also suffered from. so joe, who was always up on the medical procedures and the kennedys can always go and get the best medical procedures. they always talk to the best people in the field. the people in the field were telling them at the time they thought a lobotomy might be appropriate for rosemary. we know now of course it was not. it was disastrous. the other thing is the kennedys, rose and joe had vowed practically to each other that they rarely told each other back is. in fact, rose asked that show not be told of the president's assassination until the day after. she wanted to give him one more night of what she hoped would be restful sleep. by that time he suffered his own stroke in december of 61 and was an invalid himself. they had this lifelong pact as a married couple that when they were apart, and if they had bad news in the other was the way they wouldn't tell each other. but they also try to keep that is from each other so the other wouldn't worry. in some ways it was part and parcel of their marital bond. >> host: so how did they get from that to her actually being an activist for helping none? >> guest: as you say, the kennedy family will take these tragedies and turn them into good for others. >> host: special olympics. >> guest: special olympics in the 60s. before that, joe junior was killed in the war in 1944, his father in the family founded the joseph p. kennedy junior foundation. at the time for disadvantaged children it was called. they then moved that foundation towards hope helping and that became the number one in the special olympics grow out of that. the family couldn't say anything about rosemary because it was hidden from public view, particularly since this is a family wanting to move ahead in politics. only in the late 50s and as president kennedy gets close to running for office does the word begin to filter out from the family about rosemary. and only in interviews in the late 50s and early 60s this rose began to utter the words, my daughter was mentally. otherwise the family would not talk about it prior to that. with that, kennedy shriver, the sister runs with that mission very much involved with her mother and they go out and raise millions and millions of dollars for the charity. they had the power to do it. and there is the cause of rose's life. she was very much more traditional first lady's, but a first lady will take one policy area to focus on. rose kennedy did that in her policy area was a personal one for her. both try to help those already born with it in fact can, trying to prevent it by, for example, encouraging women to have measles vaccination so they wouldn't contract german measles while pregnant and pass along a mental disability. >> host: would ask you a question. rose is carefully calibrating the image, but there's also this panorama of pathology in the family. there's drinking. later their suicide and philandering. how do you reconcile those? some people have tried to make the case that rose contributed to that in some way. did you find that in your research? what do you think? >> guest: well, i'm a political scientist, not a psychologist. i won't go too far down that road. i will say rose herself wreck dives in her own way, in the zone writings, the story about wishing in her journal that her children would pray the rosary rather than turning to pills and alcohol. but it became clear in the 1970s, because the very public arrests of her older grandchildren for pot possession, some of them were putting the high and hyannisport. they address that inconvenient truth and she said how disappointed she was that she had hoped her grandchildren with all of the vantage is in the name is elaborately status may have stood up against drug use. she said, i realize it is very widespread. the private schools and homes. i know they're exposed to it, but i hope the older grandchildren would stand up against it. .. it was an opiate based drugs and a lot of over-the-counter drugs were for many years that was in a household medicine cabinet as you can imagine and given for upset stomachs and it would be given to teething children. it would be given to hysterical menopausal women and rose had us on a travel list well into the 1970s when it began to be listed in massachusetts as a controlled substance, so it appears to me that even she may have had some issues. i don't want to go to the point of saying an addiction but she certainly indicated by the drugs that she was taking with her on trips that she had quite an array of medicatiomedicatio ns. sometimes perhaps even what people do today they end up taking medications for the symptoms that are caused by the other medications that they are taking. i don't want to say that she contributed to the addiction problems but it could be some sort of -- some sort of genetic issue within the family that rose may have had as well. >> host: there on the dark side of camelot here for a minute. what about chappaquiddick and her reaction to that and how she handled back? >> guest: again she doesn't have -- a lot of her personal papers but she does write to people about it at the time and is has a little bit of a journal about it
welcome to c-span's "first ladies, influence and image." tonight we tell you the story of jacqueline kennedy. we have two guests at the next table -- at the table to tell you more. a presidential historian and author of many books on the presidency, with a special focus on the cold war era and kennedy administration. is a uva political scientist and as part of the modern first ladies serious she has written a jacqueline kennedy biography. i want to start, before we get into details on the white house years, with the assassination and the imagery of the assassination. anyone who was alive at that time has those images in their mind. subsequently, because of the power of the internet, we were talking before about the collective consciousness. people have experienced this since it happened. she was just 34 years old. >> just 34 years old. from the moment at dallas, we know so much about the story. you forget he was shot into her arms. for five minutes they were there and she felt that they left the hospital to go back to washington, but they had to do something to make sure that he had the historical reputation. that he deserved but would not be there to fight for. >> what sense would a 34-year- old woman half of that experience? what did she draw from? this funeral with so many iconic images together in such a short time. >> she said when she was young woman, my ambition in life is to be the art director of the 20th century. oddly enough, she almost turned out to be that, at least for the kennedy administration. and she felt one thing that would be important for his legacy, as horrible as dallas was, to wipe out the view of that and restore the american people's dignity by having three or four days of ceremony she helped they would render rather than the tawdryness of what happened. >> this is not the first presidential assassination and presidential widow. but it is the first one in the television age. as a political scientist you talk about the power of television, how did this work in this case? >> for the funeral, she know she wanted to go back to the rites for abraham lincoln, our first assassinated president. she asked her brother-in-law and the president's various friends and aides to find books on the link funeral, and they did. all of this played out on television. i would like to point out that when eisenhower was elected in 19 -- 1952, 20% of american households had television sets. i 196390% to 95% had televisions. sitting in our family living room on that night of november 22, 1963 and saying mrs. kennedy walk out of air force one, behind her husband's casket. i remember my parents and older brother gasping at seeing her. >> we now know that what she was saying to people, lady bird johnson says, let me get someone to help you change your clothes. people tono, i want see what they have done to john. >> understanding the power of the imagery. we have two hours for your questions and comments and video clips and audio clips. the story of jacqueline kennedy. what has made the series is so interesting is the questions you ask. we would like to encourage you to take part again tonight. tweet us,eak us -- you can postdate comment on our facebook page, and you can also call us. our numbers are -- mountan/pacific -- we will get to your calls in just a bit. i would like to start with a phone conversation with president johnson. i will ask you to explain about the phone conversation and why we have them before we listen. what did he do in the white house? telephoned his conversations. with johnson, 650 hours over five years. casesed people in most without their knowledge, including jacqueline kennedy. at that point she had a very good relationship with lbj. but she would not have been too happy to know he was having this call taped. >> this is the phone conversation was just 10 days after the death of her husband. this is a phone conversation with lyndon johnson. >> the first thing you got to learn, you got some things to learn. >> i wasn't going to send you in. putou just come over and your arm around me, that's all you do. we haven't got anything else to do, let's take a walk. walk around the backyard. let me tell you how much you mean to all of us, and how we can carry on. >> you know what i want to say about that letter? i know how rare a letter risen the president's handwriting. you know i have more of your handwriting than i do object's -- of jack's now, and for you to send me that thing today, the announcement and everything -- >> i want you to know i told my mother a long time ago, when everybody else gave up about my election in 1948, my mother and you havend my sisters, a lot of courage we men don't have. we have to rely and depend on you. you got something to do. you have the president relying on you, and this is not the first time. many women running around -- you have the biggest job of your life. >> ran around with two presidents. that is what they will say with -- about me. ok, anytime. thank you for calling, mr. president. goodbye. >> do come by. >> i will. relationship between lbj and president kennedy was not always the easiest relationship. but after his assassination, how did he treat the departing first family and jackie kennedy? >> very well and mrs. kennedy talked about how grateful she was for president johnson. though it sometimes caught in her throat to have to say president johnson. unlike the president's mother, who when she was called a couple hours after the assassination by air force one slipped into calling him is to president. he is very grateful to both mrs. johnson -- she was very grateful to mrs. johnson and president johnson that they were so gracious to her and let her stay in the white house until december 6. she was able to stay there with her children until she got the sense of where she was going to go. she had no home to go to. in the carnage in dallas, she lost her husband, her home and her job. she literally had no place to go until the home was opened to her in georgetown. caroline was going to nursery school and kindergarten. she was very grateful to the president for that. >> you have listened to a lot of jacqueline kennedy indicates project. control ofso in herself, 10 days after the assassination and going to the funeral, help us understand her and her psyche. often,would find that is someone who was lost a spouse or someone very close to them, during the days of the funeral and the ceremony, she said, just keep on moving right now, we can all collapse later. there were a net decisions she had to make -- where to live, about the presidential library, trying to make sure her children were in as normal of an environment as possible. you cannot think of anything more abnormal than, the children lost their father this way. and once she got to georgetown she did almost collapse. this was late december and the beginning of spring. she went through a terrible depression. quite understandably. before then, you couldn't ask for more than she did in terms of keeping the situation forever -- together. >> in the days before the trip to dallas, what was the popularity of the kennedy administration and mrs. kennedy? >> the president had suffered because of civil rights. >> by 20 points. >> he had fallen in the southern states, so he was concerned. he was going to texas to try to connect -- cements the party there and raise money for the 1964 campaign. this was really the kickoff for the 1964 presidential reelection campaign. gallup does not take regular polls about the first lady at the time. but early on, 1961, she was polling at about 59%. -- in2, gallup did take 1940 they started the most admired woman paul -- poll. she finally supplanted eleanor roosevelt, who had been number one for 12 years. mrs. kennedy was for five or six more years after that. she was riding high. remember, they lost their baby patrick in august of 1963, so people felt particularly kindly toward her. >> there is also an irony. when john kennedy was planning his campaign in 1960, he once made an offhand remark, we will have to run jackie through subliminally. he meant that jackie had been but shen an elite way, might not be too politically helpful. and there was no one who was more astounded and delighted that she had turned out this -- into this vast political asset. when jfk was planning the trip to texas, john conley and the others in texas said, you have to bring mrs. kennedy. she is so popular and you will have much bigger crowds. as indeed he did. >> john kennedy was much more wealthy than she. so why would the public not react to his wealth in the way he was concerned with her? >> he felt there are many -- as many political leaders that come from affluence to, he gave the impression that he was a guy from the navy. in 1957 she bought him a jag wire as a birthday gift. he had it returned and traded it in for review at -- a buick. he felt she was not someone who had much political experience. >> she talked in the oral history about how she felt she was a drag on him in the early days. >> she said, i'm sorry i'm such a drag for you. >> before we get into more detail on the 1960 campaign, i would like to understand the creation of the imagery of camelot. how did that come about? >> jackie kennedy asked teddy friend, writing for "life" magazine, to come to hyannisport and interview her. -- pressers were held for this. she said, late at night, before were in the white house, we used to play the record of "camelot" in the player. needless to say, the editors and life thought, this would be the big theme. they urged him to make camelot the major theme. what came out, the kennedy presidency, camelot made its debut. in the end, she may not have been doing, it may not have been something that helped. years were all knights and great noble deeds was almost setting him up for the revisionist history in the 1970's that did happen. >> she must have known these would come along and she could get out in front of them with this wonderful, signing moment. one brief, shining moment. there was a dark side of camelot, but it certainly was brief. all you have to do is look at the imagery to see they were a shining couple with two beguiling, shining children. >> we will spend some time on the campaign that brought the kennedy's to the white house. we will be visiting the jfk library. we will do that throughout our program tonight. theearn more role -- on role of helping out her husband during the campaign. >> mrs. kennedy spoke in rate length about president kennedy and his love of reading, his belief in the power of words. that is something that is a believe they both shared. what i like about this story here, it shows an example of the great belief in the power of words. a great example of collaboration between husband and wife. this is early in the presidential campaign and in the early days, mrs. kennedy did travel with him as much as possible, and this is a reading copy of the speech he presented in washington state in june of 1959. mrs. kennedy was with him at that dinner, president kennedy had speechwriters and he would often rewrite his speeches up until the moment he was about to deliver it, and at this dinner, he wanted to close the speech "ulysses." he asked, give me the last lines from ulysses. following in mrs. kennedy's hand is the rest of the column, which she knew from memory and gave to him so he could close his speech with those words. a facebook viewer who writes, in clips from the 1960 campaign you rarely see mrs. kennedy. present at the democratic national convention in los angeles. because of the difficulties --ween her 1956 presidency pregnancy, did mrs. kennedy feel she could not bear losing another baby? >> she had a terrible record in her pregnancy. she had lost a baby to miscarriage in 1965, then as this person points out, she lost a stillborn little girl in 1956, right after that very hot, not air-conditioned -- so she was really just afraid to go. i think what this person is referring to is from april onward in 1960 she did tend to stay at home, though she did go with the future president, president of be, to a parade in october 1960 through manhattan, the canyons of manhattan. she was definitely with child. the child would be john junior. a sense ofys had humor. bradley also has -- have a wife was with child. right after the election was one in hyannisport, he said to the two women, you can take the pillows out, we have one. -- won. >> what role did she play? we talked about -- at what point did john kennedy realized he had a political asset? paris inhey went to the spring of 1961 and a lot of people turned out both to see john kennedy, and also jackie, who had been a student in paris, was known to be a french ancestry, spoke french and knew french art and history. that was when she first began to get enormous crowns. i know we will talk about this later on, the program in february 1962, the tour of the white house she worked so hard to restore. >> this was after he was in, she began to realize she could help with sustaining popularity. we will take a few calls. ida in west palm beach, you are on the air. >> thank you, i am enjoying this series very much. i was only five years old when the president was assassinated, so i don't really remember it, but i have read so many books about the president and mrs. kennedy, i'm great admirer of hers. one of the biggest images was her pink stained suit, and after she removed it -- she did not want to remove it before they returned to washington, as she said, she wanted the world to see what had happened to him. what did become of that suit? was it destroyed or has it been preserved somewhere? and if so, where? and will it ever be shown to the public? i thank you again very much. >> as i understand, once she removed it, it was stored, i believe in her mother's attic. in georgetown. if people are familiar with the work by william manchester, they will see the last paragraph of that book talks about when he saw, after some years went by, the packaged dress, he could see the stains. if one didn't know the story of the pink suit, one would think that the person who wore it had met a terrible end. book, last line of the they might even wonder who had been to blame. >> as we understand, with the it is with the archives, and caroline has made sure it will not appear to the 2103. before the year >> i don't think any of us will see it. >> unless there are changes in medical science. >> mary, from utah, you are on. >> this has been amazing and wonderful, one of the best things on television. thank you for that. my question is, jacqueline kennedy, such a great style icon and known for that, her privates maryr private secretary, gallagher, this was an issue with the president, the cost of her wardrobe. nothing was spared on her clothing. was she known as a frugal individual otherwise? thank you so much. >> not by her husband, if we -- he were to say. but she spent an awful lot on clothing, and by the best information we have, this was actually joseph kennedy, who said, dress as you need to and send me the bills. he felt as a something that is very important about the presidency. in those days it turned out to be a great asset. >> it did become a bit of an issue in the 1960 campaign. they were big statements in the press that she must've spent $30,000 a year on her wardrobe. >> she put out a statement not spend $30,000 -- >> pat nixon -- >> the contrast was strong. it was a close election. then she wore a cloth coat to the inauguration instead of a fur. >> then, a project you know very well. i will show you the book that came out of this. historic conversations on the life of john f. kennedy -- which you annotated in introduced, and work with caroline kennedy on. what is this project? >> when jackie kennedy, right in the wake of the assassination, she was reading all sorts of stories about her husband would not amount to much because it was only two years and 10 months. she was so determined to try to she him win the reputation thought he deserved, one of the things that was urged on her by the white house aide and historian -- was to record all the history. which they spoke on briefly at the university of virginia. when there are historical events that may not be recorded in letters, we go and interview a great figure in history and somehow try to fill in the gaps. she interviewed her at her house ,n georgetown about eight times only a few months after the assassination, when her memories were fresh. the idea would be that she would speak freely, as it -- the historian of the 20th century. these were closed until 2011 when caroline felt they should be published. >> has any other first lady done a similar oral history? >> she was certainly the >> lady first. bird johnson. >> there is a wonderful book. by oxford university press. obtained all her oral history interviews as well. critique, her view of lyndon johnson and the role he played as vice president. jack had to do it as his running mate. he was a man with this enormous ego, raised, mocking jack in every way. jack would say, you can never get an opinion out of him. he asked to go to luxembourg. for a president who is dying to give you a lot to do. take a trip to luxembourg. lyndon as vice president, he could just do anything. >> i want to read something from barbara's but before i get to -- barbara's book before we get to michael. you said -- underneath a veil of consequence, she tremendous -- concealed tremendous awareness. jackie had a very shrewd view of people, who the real people were and who the phonies were, and between people who are bright and those who are stupid. the papers were filled with her assessments of people. did john f. kennedy use this to his advantage as a political partnership? >> i think so. i think that was her political contribution in addition to what we said about the imagery and mastery of television and that sort of thing. we will talk about the fact that she did not have a major impact on policy -- >> nor did she want one. >> he didn't talk to her about it very much. he might on occasion mentioned something, but he did not seek her out for device. -- advice. i think this is the case that if he was going to have any connection with her, at all, in terms of politics it would be when they went off on these trips or when they were coming back from political trips. she did go to 46 of the then-48 states with him in 1959 and 1960 when they were out with the rank and file. she was on the plane with him coming back saying, that person is a phony, that one is real, that one is smart, make sure you keep up with that one. >> you hear the people that she criticizes, adlai stevenson, or the secretary of state. these are the people who tended not to do too well in the kennedy administration, like -- and the one she praised, like robert mcnamara, did very well. one thing to remember is how different these times were. texas on the 21st of november, 1963. since the inauguration, jackie kennedy had never been west of virginia. she did not travel domestically, she had small children and did not campaign, and thought that this was something to do in an election year. that is why going to texas meant so much. she said, jack, i will do anything to help you because this may be a close election in 1964. >> what do you learn about her savvy? listening to all these hours of tapes. >> you were mentioning what they said -- that someone had the impression of someone who was not involved in politics. before the election in 1960, and the convention of 1960, she was asked by a reporter where the democratic convention should be held. she said acapulco. >> at one point she asked what the date was of the inauguration. >> she said these things, and she was not completely on top of it. it shows you how different the role was in those days. if she had given the image she was sitting here giving jack all ,his advice on the entourage that would have been something that would not have helped her very much in terms of society in those age. they were too hard edged, this is the way it would have been seen in 1960. >> catherine brown, the publisher of the washington post, to be honest, the kennedy men, they were chauvinists. and she said, they just weren't interested in what women had to say about anything. >> when did the tapes come out with the biography? >> the tapes came out thanks to michael and caroline kennedy in 2012, -- 2011, excuse me. my book was published in 2004. much to my chagrin, the tapes were not available to write the book. >> so when you heard her in her own words, did it square with the view you developed in the powder -- biography? >> it did. at first i wish i had these but then i realized that this was going to add color and substance, to be sure, and it would have added michael's superb annotation of the oral history. but i found it actually followed the examples that we just gave, talking about mrs. kennedy. i thought as soon as i listened to the oral history -- >> you see it has all the -- >> what it made me think about, in terms of the camelot image, was how she wanted to shake that image -- shake that image after her husband's death. to denigrate others around him sometimes raise him up. >> and also, just humanly. dissing lbj, it is why you always have to be skeptical of oral history. during the presidency, her relationship with lbj was quite good. johnson said she was the only person in the whole entourage except the president who treated him nicely. by spring of 1964, we are -- she was very close to robert kennedy, they were talking all the time. he was already on the outs with lbj and was talking to her about his shortcomings. you have to listen with that in mind. >> we are talking about a first- person historical document. sheldon kuiper on twitter asks first ladies burned letters. did jackie do that? december 2,in the 19 63 phone call, you hear a little you motion in her voice. i now have more handwritten letters from you then -- than from jack. general did not write long, you mode of letters. >> he wrote a law as a youngster to his parents and siblings, but he was not a romantic, it would be safe to say, towards his wife. arell know her letters currently not available at the kennedy library. >> rachel is in portland, oregon. >> thank you so much for this program. i was wondering, how did jacqueline kennedy influence art and fashion in the united states? >> may i ask how old you are? >> i am 12. >> what a great question. >> how much did you know about jacqueline kennedy before you started watching tonight? lot have been studying a about her recently. >> why is that? >> i like reading history very much. and i really enjoy studying about her. so i decided to study about her after finding a book at the library. >> great to have you participating tonight. thanks for making the effort to call in. we are going to talk about her influence. let me answer her question by showing a video, and then we will talk more about it. >> that was a good question. >> at her age, i wrote john f. kennedy was the person i most admire. you will end up with a phd in political science. it is a great life. how theok at presidential library, how they help interpret jacqueline kennedy as a style icon. >> of course she is known for a style icon and admiration of her fashion sense. the first ensemble she wore as first lady was on inauguration coat and dress designed by cassini. it is a wonderful example of her simple elegance that became very popular. wore to adorn she the ensemble was a really tiffanyl ruby brooch by that jfk gave her to celebrate the birth of john junior. she was at the inaugural luncheon right after swearing- in. most famously, finishing the ensemble was the pill box hat, which she wore that day. she wore it on the back of her head so her face would be seen. that actually set a fashion trend. the hat would normally be worn on the very top of the head. she had it pushed back to frame her face. displayed here in the storage boxes perhaps one of mrs. kennedy's best-known dresses. the dress she wore during her televised tour of the white house in february, 1962. visitors to our museum are quite surprised to realize it is red. the program was filmed in black- and-white and broadcast in black and white, but i like to surmise that she chose red for that program knowing it would be televised on valentine's day, 1962. let's go into the museum and look at other examples we have on display. she put a lot of thought into her wardrobe, when she was representing the country both in the white house and while traveling abroad. she would think about what colors could mean something to the country. so for her visit to canada in may of 1961, the first state visit that the kennedys made as president and first lady, she wore this red suit, as a gesture of respect, for the canadian maple leaf and knowing that she would be greeted by the royal canadian mounted police, who famously where -- wear red, . this green coat and hat was one buddy lady -- was one by the first lady for her rival -- her arrival in bogotá, colombia. they were greeted by hundreds of thousands of people, particularly when mrs. kennedy would address the crowds in spanish. i really admire the thought that she put into her wardrobe. you think about the event that she was attending, or the country she was visiting, was there a style of a particular color that she could wear that would mean something to her host? and she knew the advantages of wearing something that would make her stand out in a crowd. >> what do we know other than the fact that she loved clothes and looked great in them? how do we compare her fashion to influence the country, and advance the position of the united states abroad? >> she felt that it was best for the first lady to dress in the best of american fashion. and bring the best of american culture to the white house. she suffered a bit during the televised tour in 1962, suggesting that thewas no longer -- the united states was no longer a young, unformed country, but a country -- that language have been her -- but worthy of being considered as a superpower. >> she goes from being a clothes horse to being a cold warrior. >> she understood have -- >> she helped to draw in, what we then called the third world countries. we were the new world and what better representation of the new world than the 33-year-old, young, fresh woman, with these youthful fashions. >> and the people in paris -- >> last week, eisenhower -- they set trends across the country and people were emulating her. and it was a couple of years before they were putting the bangs in their hair. in -- you could buy them in the drugstore. >> we were talking about the ike sundress. this is not something that she would wear. this was an upping of the level of the style. i think that goes to cassini, who wrote to mrs. kennedy. she picked him because he was american, he had european ties and hollywood ties, but he said, i will create a wardrobe for you on the world stage. and indeed he did. want jack and myself to dress as if jack was president of france. >> how did the american public respond? >> by and large they loved it. every now and then she was a little too youthful. sometimes she would show up and -- in a bathing suit. sometimes you had conservatives who said, a first lady should not do that and if you think of the previous three first -- -- they were in their 60's when they left office. they were somewhat matronly and had grandchildren in some instances. so she seemed like everybody's older sister or cousin rather than their maiden aunt or grandmother. >> let's take a call next, from judy, in newport news. >> love the series. we are really enjoying it. thank you so much. it seems to me i have heard her name pronounced as "jack- lean." is this true? >> she preferred to be called that -- she was usually called jackie, which she hated. and she says in the oral history -- both jack and i thought the combination of jack and jackie was quite unfortunate. >> anthony in chicago. >> how are you doing today? >> what is your question? >> we are going through this in my high school class as we speak. as you all know, there was a if i'mith the zapruder, pronouncing his name right. we were looking at this in class, this was graphic and horrifying, of course, but i was wondering, when he was shot -- was jacqueline kennedy trying to jump out of the car in that video, or was this just trying , what are in high school year? >> i'm a junior. >> thank you for your call. >> the answer is we don't know why. she was asked about it in the warren commission. she said, i see myself climbing on the car but don't remember much. she was deeply in shock. >> would you show these accrued or film in a high school class? film in a high school class? >> i would not. like the explosion of the challenger, i have not watched this, this is too painful and i would not show this to students. >> but this is widely available on the internet. >> is it helpful to talk about this in the classroom weather is a guided discussion? >> perhaps, but that would be a line i would have to draw. i would have to say to them, as i mentioned earlier, i remember that day so well as a seven- year-old, being taken up to search from cap -- church from catholic school to pray the rosary for the president, who had been wounded, and to be told at the end of the day he had died and to see the last prayer of the day for him. i would have to step back to my scholarly side, -- scholarly side and be human. >> what would you think about -- what would jackie think about the documentaries that are all over television? would she be happy the story is still being told? >> there is always the hazard in talking about a historical figure and what they may or may not have thought. she was so worried at the end of 1962 that jack would be forgotten. she was asking to her friends and others, please don't let them forget jack. i think it the very least, she would not approve of everything being shown, but at least it was a sign he was not being forgotten. far from it. >> and the camelot label has remained. >> the young caller talked about her influence on the arts. our next video, from the kennedy library, is of a trip she took to india and pakistan in early 1962 along with her sister. let's watch that and then talk about her international travel. and her influence on the arts. >> i am profoundly impressed with the reverence you have in pakistan for your art and your culture. my own country has pride in their traditions. , i know that is one more thing that binds us together and which always will. >> the interesting thing -- we were talking about how so many images of the kennedy administration are in black and white. this is in color. how did that happen? >> this was the presidency and the president, who was aware of the importance of color photography. one of the last tapes, he is talking about plans for the 1964 democratic convention. he says, i want to have a motion picture about the administration in color, because it has so much impact. therecky thing for us is would have been the information agency and a bunch of photographers accompanying her on a trip like this, so we have a color film. >> how many international trips did she take? >> this was by herself with her sister, but not with the president. it would be viewed as unofficial and we could talk about the canadian trip, her first trip out of the country, and in paris in june of 1961. they made several trips south of the border and went to puerto rico and colombia, and venezuela, and costa rica. where else have they gone? >> she felt it was not her duty outside of campaigns to travel domestically. >> she traveled by herself or with family for vacations. >> she knew how important it was for her to go with him. to vienna when khrushchev was meeting and bringing his wife. >> how important was this to policy ofthe foreign the administration? >> i think that for jackie to get the receptions like the kind that they did in paris in 1961, when they went with the and i to meet with khrushchev and got a reception. the leader of the soviet union, nikita khrushchev, that was the time when the united states was trying to make the point that they are a arriving power and third world countries should align with us, not the soviet union. >> next is dennis in brooklyn. you are on the air. >> thank you, susan, and thank you for the program. i wanted to ask, we already mentioned that mrs. kennedy had a huge influence on the arts, style, and culture. i am curious ever since i saw "ulysses"d that campaign earlier during the campaign -- she was incredibly well read. was it her education or her upbringing that fueled her intelligence? >> it was both. she talked about, an autobiographical essay that she had done in 1951 -- she talked about her upbringing and said that she was a tomboy who like to go horseback riding, but she also like to be by herself and sit in a room, reading little lord fauntleroy, and she loved to read, with the european cast -- to read books, especially with a european cast to them. she was an avid reader, much like her husband, but she tended to read literature and he would read history. she continued this and also had a superb background in education, both for her prep school years as well is going to years in vassar, then the sorbonne for junior year abroad in paris, and finishing up at george washington university. one of a handful of first ladies up to that time with a bachelors degree. >> sometimes it is forgotten, her influence on historic preservation. now, we take it as a given, if there is a beautiful historic building, there better be a good reason to take that down. or else you do not do it. 50 years ago, that was not the case. the term urban renewal was used. if john kennedy in particular and jackie kennedy as first lady had not been the first lady in the 1960s -- the executive office building next to the white house would have been torn which dwight eisenhower was willing to do. he thought it was an eyesore. wouldf lafayette square have been torn down. backlley madison, i came and there was the white house all that up. beautiful lafayette square. >> it would have been replaced by federal office buildings of lot --time, looking roughly like a federal penitentiary and prison yard. that was the difference that she was there. this really helped the historic preservation -- >> in the book you quote aldrich -- who was she? >> her social secretary and schoolmate from ms. porter's school in connecticut. >> she wrote that mrs. kennedy designed her mission of first lady along the following lines. do you remember this? >> preservation of family, entertaining with style and grace in the number one house in the world, the makeover of the white house itself and the raising of the cultural stature of this country. >> wasn't that amazing that she wrote that before going into the white house. she already had a firm sense -- family and children first. everyone would hope that would be the case but she already had a mission statement before she began as the first lady. >> our next clip is from an that was done about raising children in the white house. >> it is rather hard with children. there is so little privacy. i don't mind for myself -- but i think it is hard with them, i wanted to take my daughter to the circus last week and decided, i just shouldn't because that would ruin it for her. i worked so hard to make a little ballet school a private thing we can do together and there were a number of photographers when we got there. so it is a little hard. >> do you think caroline, who is older than john junior, has she changed much from the attention she has gotten? >> no. she is still too little. but someday she's going to have to go to school, and if she is in the papers all the time that will affect her classmates and they will treat her differently. --t is what i am so anxious we were always treated the same. it is how other people treat her because they read about her. >> both of you have written about the school that they created in the white house. will you tell us the story of how it was created, what the goal was, and how the public perceives it? >> we heard about that right here, she was worried about caroline, who when her father became president would have been three years old. going to an existing school and having people fawn over her, in washington, she thought it might be more normal if she created a school in the white house to learn. they hired teachers and had other kids around the same age, mostly the children of other members of the administration. that school ran for the length of the kennedy presidency. at the time of the assassination, one of the things the schoolwas to say can't go on at least until the end of the semester. >> there was a controversy because all the children were white. >> although there is a photograph in the oral history that shows the class portrait of caroline and her schoolmates. there is one african-american student. i think he was the son of andrew hatcher, the assistant press secretary. he said to his father, the president came over and address you by name. it was, how did he know me? he must've been told, i was the one with the blue pen. height of at the concern over integration and only a few days after brown versus board. people were writing into the white house and saying, were there any, in those days they would say negro childen in the class and they had to say this was a private school, not a public school, which would be -- which would have to follow the brown versus board of education edict. >> we have more on the candy -- more on the kennedy administration. first on the list, the creation of the peace corps, the advancement of the space program, creation of the space program. the cuban missile crisis and bay of pigs. the introduction of civil rights legislation, which john kennedy sent to congress. sending military advisers in vietnam. comment on anyto of those in particular and how they framed our view of the historical relevance of the administration? >> one way of evaluating a president is to say how much you engage with the controversial issues of the time. domestically, the biggest issue was civil rights. it took john kennedy two-and-a- sent thes, but he first big civil rights bill to congress saying public accommodations should be integrated. it took a lot of courage. domestically, the cold war, the cuban missile crisis. probably some elements of what he did lead to the cuban missile crisis. the moment it happens, i want john kennedy as my president. did not result in the deaths of up to 48 million americans, which could have happened. that is as relevant today as it would have been at the time. thehe bay of pigs, usually term fiasco is associated with the bay of pigs. the utter failure to remove castro. yet because president kennedy went out and gave a press conference and said, i am the responsible officer of this government, i am the responsible one, his opinion ruble -- approval rating went up to 83%. >> and also, when the soviet missiles went into cuba, the joint chiefs said it -- you won't taking much of a risk, he knew to be skeptical of them in a way that he was not at the time. >> and he refashioned his entire administrative procedure by making these kinds of decisions. >> andrew, from south carolina. you are on. >> thank you for having me on. i was wondering how -- what was her astrological sign and how did this shape your worldview? inshe was interested astrology. she was born on july 28, 1929. perhaps our color could tell us. i think that this is leo. my wife was born on the same day. so i have a bit of a leg up. who cameis the woman to see me in richmond who plotted out the astrological signs of the entire kennedy family? listening to jackie kennedy in the videos and the audio, regina wants to know, did jackie speak cadence in normal conversations as on tv? not.e did some people who knew her commented on the fact that in public she spoke in a way that was very careful, sometimes a little bit stilted, and the explanation was she had in her mind the way a first lady should look and a first lady should act, and also the way a first lady should sound, which is different from the way she sounded off duty in the evenings. >> but her mother and sister also had that. >> this has a label, locust valley lockjaw, for the oyster bay area of long island. she said to me, they all spoke the same way. exactlyit, i think, is what michael said. the other part is the whispery part of that. her dad had said this was a way to attract men. i always look at the photographs of mrs. kennedy in conversation with powerful men and foreign dignitaries, and oftentimes she is very close to them, with a strapless gown, just tucked up under their arms, and i have the sense that she is using that voice. said, even as a teenager, she would speak to a young man, she would just envelop you. you thought you were really brought into her orbit. clearly it worked. >> when she wrote letters, she wrote some of the best letters, romantic, almost overdoing it, saying how wonderful someone was, this was one of the best evenings of my life when maybe not have been. many people were so charmed by these that they felt they were much closer to her than they actually were. >> next is craig, in omaha. >> thank you for your call. what is on your mind? >> i love your book, for starters. my question is, i own a 1962 kennedy board game. the question is, how did mrs. kennedy feel about her image being put out like that? >> a kennedy board game? >> i was given a deck of cards by a student of mine that had all of the kennedy family on the faces of the cards. i doubt she would be pleased with that, but she had to know that these things were happening, and she had approved a paper doll collection that would have shown caroline as a paper doll dressed up like a first lady. >> this was from the political advisers in the west wing, she barely tolerated things like this. she thought they were other and -- she thought it was undignified. , "the famous family" the best-selling record of the time. von meter, imitating jfk. she was outraged that there would be an actress playing her. >> we are at the height of the "madman" era. the creation of medical campaigns from madison avenue. she had to recognize the political value of all of that. >> many of the pictures that we must treasure of jfk and those children, you may notice that there is no jackie. these were taken when she was oftentimes out of the country and not in a position to object when they said, get the photographers in. >> that is a nice segue. i want to talk to both the you about the relationship tween the press and the kennedy administration, and how jacqueline kennedy interfaced with the press. when you look back at those times, there is so much written about the friendliness of the press corps. the relationship between the washington post editors, and the kennedy administration. looking through a historical lens, how does that look to you now? >> much more genteel in almost every respect about private lives. kennedy thought that the press was at his throat all the time, but compared to nowadays, it looks extremely different. the attitude was at the beginning of the administration she said -- your policy with the press should be giving out minimal information with maximum politeness. which pretty much summarized it. >> we show a picture of jacqueline, with ben bradley, and his arm is around her. you look at how close that relationship was, and what is at stake. >> you may notice that the original picture showed a little bit more of her legs, and she -- she actually took a black pen and ink it a little it so it was more first lady-like. the other thing -- upstairs in the white house -- this is very different than how it may have been during the eisenhowers. to be the editor of "the washington post" and people know him from watergate and all the president's men. but he was also the editor of "newsweek" at the time. he had been the neighbor of the kennedys, along with his wife. they were good friends and they continue the friendship, as you can see. some of the beautiful videos that were taken in the last weeks out of the northern virginia home right before the assassination are with the bradleys. they were brought in the afternoon the >> does it serve the public well? >> i'm sure not. >> the president did not talk to him for about six months. >> likewise, mrs. kennedy dropped him from her friendship when he wrote "conversations with kennedy" and she thought it was an invasion of privacy. they were thin skinned. >> robert from plano, texas, hi, robert. guest: how are you doing? i'm interested in the relationship between christine jackie onassis. i heard she was deceased and i want you to expound a little bit on their relationship. what was it like? >> we aren't great source on that as historians. we have to stick with things we can talk about that with certainty. i don't know if you want to comment on this. >> i would say it's pretty obvious they had a fight over the onassis will and that mrs. kennedy at that time, mrs. onassis did fight to get more money from the family and that she was successful in doing that. so there's no love loss between the two of them, probably. >> one hour left in our two-hour look at jackie kennedy's life and her accomplishments and approach to the role of first lady. when when he talk about how the press interfaced and how they might have been gentler than two issues that were very much apart of jack kennedy's biography to talk about, first of all, his health. there are many things we know now about the severity of the back pain and addison's disease and the like. why did we not know more about it at the time? >> he would not have been elected president in the 1960. there were rumors that he suffered from addison's disease, which he did. >> we should say rumors spread by lyndon johnson and others. >> and others, sure. there was an effort by his entourage to protect him and say he didn't suffer from addison's disease but not the classic kind. that was what was done. in recent years, we've gotten access to his medical records that showed he suffered from all sorts of things, bad stomach, bad back. all sorts of thing, many medications. you can look at this one way or another. you can say this is a terrible cover-up we should have known. probably we should have. at the same time, if you're trying to evaluate what the man was made of to go through all of that, his brother once said jack kennedy went through at least half of his days on this earth in intense physical pain, probably true. and that is a test of someone who had great will. >> he had the last rites of the church said over him three or four times prior to dallas, 1963. >> i'd like for you to tell a story that you tell in your book about early in his marriage when he has experimental surgery on his back. she as a young wife tends to him. >> it's so difficult for him in the first few years because the back gets worse. we think first from a football injury in college and then slammed against the bulkhead of pt-109 in the midst of world war ii. between that and taking cortisone for a bad stomach, robert believes in consulting with doctors that caused a deterioration of the lumbar. so in the early part of their marriage in '54, he has this experimental fusion attempt to be made of the lumbar region and they place a metal plate in his spine and it just -- he suffers a terrible, terrible infection that almost kills him. and then -- >> reduced immune response. >> from the addison's disease. then it won't heal. the wound won't heal. here's jacqueline kennedy, a newlywed, a young woman, she's with him once they get to palm beach from the hospital. she has to dress this gaping wound. he goes back under the knife a few months later. they remove the plate and have a slightly more successful surgery but he suffers periodic bouts of severe back pain for the rest of his life. >> also led her to be very skeptical of doctor, one of the most poignant things that in parkland hospital in dallas when he was there and the doctors were working on him after the shooting. the doctors and the nurses said you can't come in here, and she said i'm going to be there when he dies. the reason was when she went through this in 1954, she remembered how the doctors said you can't be near him even though she heard him calling for her. >> ted in ft. lauderdale, florida. hi, ted, you're on. >> cute story -- jackie when she lived in manhattan. i believe they lived in an apartment building on fifth avenue. right next door in one of the apartment buildings was greta garbo. and jackie was a great greta garbo fan. and she would watch and when she'd see greta garbo on the street, i don't want to use the "stalk," because that's too cruel. but she would follow her going into a store. she would follow her in never speaking to her but looking at her and saying, oh, there's greta garbo. a person she really loved and admired. >> she actually knew greta garbo. >> she did? that's what i wanted to hear. >> 1963, greta garbo came for dinner and len billings had known greta garbo in europe, spent some time with her. so j.f.k. played a joke on his schoolmate. that len is going to fawn all over greta garbo. greta comes in and has dinner and len billings begins to talk to greta and greta said, i've never met this man before in my life. >> those prep school pranksters. >> a quote in his book in unfinished life that i wanted to introduce the other topic with the relationship to the press. that is john kennedy's womanizing. this is one thing he wrote. kennedy had affairs with several women, including pamela turnure, jackie's press secretary, mary pinchot meier, ben bradley's sister-in-law, two white house secretaries playfully dubbed fiddle and fadle. judith campbell exner and a full -- tall, slender beautiful intern. how much of this did the press know and not report? >> ben bradley, who i talked to at great length, insists he did not know, did not know about his own sister-in-law being involved with jfk. so in retrospect, there was a feeling this was better known or better documented than it may have been at the time. >> in your biography, you talk about the fact that his reputation as a womanizer was known when he was a senator in washington. she was well aware of this reputation as they were dating. what do we know about mrs. kennedy's knowledge about how much it continued after the marriage? and if so, how she felt about it? >> well, bless her heart, she kept her counsel on most of the time. she didn't write a memoir, she didn't go on oprah and tell all. >> or even tell some. >> that's a great credit to her. so we think she may have a couple of times let out in anger, perhaps, in french, both instances, where she made a reference to someone who might be having an affair with her husband in private. one could only speculate what that was like in the marriage and what tension it must have brought to the marriage, especially the early marriage when he was having all of the medical problems and she was having trouble with her pregnancies as well. >> both -- a question for both of you. when you look back knowing now what we know about the tensions in their marriage and the challenges they faced, what was the relationship like? how strong a marriage did this seem? with your documentary evidence? >> i think it was a real relationship. and probably perhaps happiest at the very end. she certainly says the happiest years were in the white house. i think that was true. and there's a lot of evidence to suggest after they lost a son, patrick, in august of 1963, they became a lot closer. for instance, you see them holding hands. >> at love field on the last day of his life in a way that you had not seen before. >> she would say that in the oral history, wouldn't she? she would say my husband didn't like to kiss babies or kiss me. he would not hold my hand or kiss me after the inauguration. you remember her touching very gently his cheek. and at the end she wanted to say oh, jack, what a day. that speaks volumes. and when they came out of the hospital after poor patrick passed away after two days, he is holding her hand and when they take the helicopter back to hyannis and they come down the steps, he's helping her because she's gone through the cesarean section. a few weeks later, he's helping her down the steps and comes down herself. i had not seen that before. ben bradley says on september of '63, he thought he saw them closer than ever. when they came together for newport for their anniversary, he said he had never seen her greet him so warmly. >> that is for all of the reasons she was distraught and devastated about what happened on the 22nd of november, it was that much worse because if you assume there was new hope and warmth in this, you can imagine it's going through her head. >> i don't have a number. but she did for instance go to italy in the summer of 1962 with her sister and her daughter. >> i'm asking the question -- we've talked about international trips before. did she intentionally get out of washington? >> oh, yes. for instance, they rented an estate called glen aura, middleburg, virginia the first two years where she rode horses. she thought for if children the more she could get them away from the white house and press attention, the better it would be on them and her. >> camelot in the lens jackie wanted jfk's presidency to be remembered was discuss. was this an effort on their part to hide their issues? >> i think not specifically. in some sense. but it was her effort to get people to look at that period and for years, it was successful. >> so her time in the white house, the things we should talk about which contributions, entertaining and the arts. what did she do on this level to introduce the public to aspects of american culture that perhaps they might not see before. >> you mentioned entertainment. first of all, i counted up 16 state dinners, only 1,032 days in the white house. compared, for example, to george bush 43. they might have had a half dozen or so in the eight years, for a host of reasons, 9/11 security issues. laura bush didn't like to entertain that way. the kennedys loved it. they would have third world leaders come and they would draw them in. they would have the lively arms. >> people remark that mamie and ike would have fred wearing and the pennsylvanians. >> big band music. >> will rogers. >> military. >> where as the kennedy had ballet and public -- >> and opera. there was that. the fine arts, she had the fine arts committee bringing paintings, attracting paintings to the white house. that was my favorite story. the mona lisa coming to washington and to new york. and then the picture of her standing in front of it in that gorgeous strapless pink gown with one of her arm tucked up under the art minister of france is priceless. >> she saw things aesthetically and knew those things would be important which we saw in the four days in november of 1963. but if you see the way a president nowadays sees a state visitor, that's all jackie kennedy is doing, between eisenhower and the predecessors. you have a state dinner and dining room, a big table in the shape of an e. the president, the first lady, the visitors would be at the long side of this. it was very formal and military looking. it was her idea that she should have round tables that encourage conversation and you should have a pageant on the south grounds perhaps with performers that harken back to the revolutionary period. even air force one, she had prepared with the design we see now adays, she knew that plane landing in the foreign airport looking the way it does is a tool of america's diplomacy. >> it was her idea to greet the visitors. make it a ceremony. otherwise it would be at union station or international airport. >> jessica in irwin, pennsylvania. hi, jessica. >> thank you for this series. so much fun. i'm curious to know since she's so lovely, did she have a regular exercise regimen? and what was her diet like? >> she certainly walked a lot. her favorite sport was as most people know equestrian. she was very good. her mother spent a year, freshman year at street briar college in virginia. they're known for their equestrian program. >> that was subtle in there. >> thank you very much. she would go back after those years and she would train there. the coach said she was a very good equestrian. this started when she was just walking, she was in the saddle. so that was her favorite way to get out and get fresh air. we the tell she watched her diet, ate carefully and exercised well. >> we're giving the good points, she was a smoker. >> she was a smoker. it was something that was very well hidden. sometimes she would smoke putting a cigarette in an ivory holder which would not have been the most helpful thing. she water skiied, the aforementioned album of the first family there's one skit where john kennedy -- john glenn is called to hyannis port for the mission and said get down to the dock and put on your water skis, jackie's waiting. >> she took caroline out and pulled her up on the skis with her. that generated letters, how dare you put your child in danger that way. >> we talked about the white house administration. the truman administration, they gutted the white house, the trumans, and completely restored the framework. what specifically did jackie kennedy? >> what happened under harry truman was that for structural reasons as we saw two weeks ago in the excellent series, the white house had to be gutted in a steel superstructure put inside eight inches away from the outer walls. that's what's there now adays. it turned out the be so expensive there was not much money left to buy furniture. so harry truman made a great deal to furnish the whole ground floor in bulk with good prices, reproductions. jackie got there after the election of 1960 she feels aghast. she said it looked like a statler hotel which she did not mean as a compliment. it was not convincing reproductions. so this mother of two, with other things to think about, took on what was this enormous project of raising a huge amount of money of art and artifacts. she wanted it to be in europe. -- the equivalent of europe. for foreign leaders to come to the white house and look like a hotel, threadbare and reproduction. it cast a bad light on the united states. if you liked the way the white house looks nowadays, we should thank jackie kennedy. >> we've been telling people all along that our partners are the folks for the white house historical association. we should say that. but it was created in this time. what was the story of the creation? what did it do then? >> it helped her to restore the white house and acquire artifacts. she was worried that when she was no longer first lady, the next first lady may not be so interested in history and may have a sister-in-law that ran a curio shop somewhere who decided they would redecorate in perhaps the style of the late 1940s or something that was more contemporary. so she thought if there was an historical association, that would be one bullwart to prevent future first ladies from turning it backwards back to before the period in which it -- which it becomes a great museum. >> she set a precedent for the other two branches of government. quickly, congress establishes its own historical society and the supreme court did about ten years later. >> looking at the press conference of a white house buy that came out. it's still in print. since the debut in 1962, 4.5 million books of these books have been sold. >> they have. she remembered going -- >> you'd like to have a number like that, huh? >> yes, i think maybe not by the government -- not for $1 apiece. >> yeah. >> the book is in a class of its own and should be. 1940, she went to the white house as a 10 or an 11-year-old girl. she was disappointed there was not a guide book. >> nothing to take away, she said. >> that was important. she knew this could generate income to help with the restoration. and that guidebook has been revised and revised and sold today. >> the curator at the time was writing the text. jackie didn't like the way it was coming out. so she went to her friend -- >> told him it was going a little slowly. >> she went to arthur schlesinger. she asked if he would write the text. she wrote the introduction. >> you referenced the televised tour of the white house when the white house was completed and it was a p.r. bonanza for the administration. what were the circumstances of the tour? who televised it. how many people watched it? >> cbs televised it. >> it was shown on all networks. >> the two, maybe up to three by abc and coming on-line then. so she goes throughout the white house. now remember we're talking about 90% of the house holds having televisions. even though it's in black and white and we can't see her bright red dress on valentine's day, by today's standards, it's stilted. people fell in love with it. they think there were 56 million viewers. they think three out of four viewers watched it. one little boy wrote to her and said i really liked it. my dad was going to watch "maverick," a western at the time. i talked him to this. she received a fan letter from barbara bush, future first lady. behind the iron curtain, 106 countries around the world. she won a special emmy for it. so it was a real high point. >> kennedy loved it. he couldn't believe what people was saying. he would have thought, i think he said this, here we have my wife, you know, raising money, buying art and artifacts and furniture. interesting to us. but to most americans, it will seem different from their way of living. it had exactly the opposite impact of what made people love this project that should take on -- >> he did the cameo. he comes in and does a little cold war vignette when he talked about how important the freedom of the united states is and how important the white house is. >> she thought it was one of the worst performances. one of their friends said, i thought it was so great, i cried when i watched jackie's performance. and jack said, yep, i cried when i saw my performance too. >> as you know you've been watching, very robust websites. first ladies where all of the videos of the programs are archived but also the other videos and each first lady are accessible. each week we put a special item for you to see for the first lady being fie features. you can see her special emmy for the white house tour. i do want to mention the first lady's book, which you can find there. it's a guide to the biographies of every first lady. it's available at cost. if you're interested in a souvenir of the series or the history of the women we've been profiling all year, it's a link you can find it at $12.95, something along those lines. this is katie, she's watching us in san francisco. hi, katie. >> thanks for the program. i've been enjoying it every week. i wrote my thesis about jaclyn -- jacqueline kennedy and her support of the fine arts. i would ask you to talk about her relationship and if the american public liked that relationship with him being a frenchman and how he helped with the white house restoration. >> i don't think he had a direct impact on the restoration. >> except taking her through versailles and showing her -- >> giving her a model to follow. but in bringing the mona lisa. michael might want to speak to this. i thought she was more admiring of him than she seemed to indicate in the oral history. she talks about the sadness that he had experienced when she met with him in 1961 in paris. he and his wife lost two sons in a tragic car accident. he was meeting with her even under those circumstances. she admired him for that. she admired his literature to be sure and being frank fillic about all things. >> gary robertson wants to know, what would jackie say she's most proud of in her white house years after being first lady. >> she said in the oral history, i think, she said she was proud of the restoration. she probably wouldn't have used the word "proud" because she probably would have said one of the things i did i felt was most important. is the other thing gets almost no attention at the time. that is it's a very important egyptian historic site that was temples in danger of being eroded by the nile that she worked with congress and jfk to save and did -- and the result was that the egyptian government, nassar at the time, said all right, thank you, mrs. kennedy, we'll send something to the united states of ours. it was a temple she hoped would be built in washington wound up put in the metropolitan museum in fifth avenue in new york. she saw it every morning. it was right outside her bedroom window at the apartment house she lived in. >> grand central station, too. >> later on. not as first lady. >> later in life, would she have been proud of those. she would have used those terms, no doubt. >> she drew a very thick line the things that happened when her husband was president. she felt things that happened before and after, they weren't. and some of the accounts of her destroying letters at the very end of her life with that in mind. >> who was jacqueline bouvier? we want to tell you about her early biography and the interest she developed as a young woman. we will return to the kennedy library to learn more about her early years as a writer. >> from a young age, she liked to write. she would create poems as gifts to her parents on christmas and birthdays. she would write a poem and illustrate it. we have two early examples when she was 10 years old. while at the school in connecticut when she went to high school, she wrote a really wonderful essay called be kind and do your share. she said be kind and do your share, that's all there is to it. she goes on about how helping others in life is so important and how easy it is for us to say a kind word to someone and all of the difference it can make to this person. the scrapbook is called one special summer after graduating from school. jackie and her sister lee were sent on a summer through europe. as a token of appreciation for that gift, they collaborated together on the scrapbook to give to their parents to let them know what their adventures were. and it's a combination of snapshots that they took. handwritten descriptions of the different places they visited, the people they met. wonderful and whimsical sketches done by jackie. in the fall of 1950, jaclyn bouvier entered vogue's very well known writing contest. the prix de pari contest. she won the contest. her two winning essays, one was a self-portrait, where she described herself as tall, 5'7", brown hair, a small face, and eyes so unfortunately far apart that it takes three weeks to have a pair of glasses made to have a bridge to fit over my nose. her example and her love of writing and the power of wordsth she's asked in question three of the essay, who are three people in history you wish you knew. in addition to that, the russian ballet. in the early 1950s, jaclyn jacqueline bouvier was hired as the camera girl in "the washington times" on display here. she went through the streets of washington interviewing different people and asking questions and creating columns. one column is prophetic because she interviewed nixon and john f. kennedy who would be adversaries in the 1970s campaign. i think the example of the early writings, and she did write throughout her life. but if her life had been different, she would have been a writer of some kind, maybe even professionally. and we know in her later life, the last part of her life, she was a prolific editor of books in new york city working on different authors with books of several topics. >> put the basic facts on the table. where was she born, to whom, and when? >> she was born in the hamptons in 1929 just before the stock market crashed in the summer of that year. her parents were john and janet bouvier. he had been an investment banker on wall street but lost his savings in the stock market crash. she continued to summer with grandfather bouvier called grandpa jack. they would write poetry and memorize poetry together. her mother was a strict disciplinarian but both sisters lee and jackie grow up in a broken home. their parents separate when jackie is 7 and they divorce when she's 12 and it's a very bitter, acrimonious divorce because her father was a womanizer and somewhat of an alcoholic. >> his nickname was black jack? >> black jack, also the name of the horse in the funeral coincidentally in november of 1963. she had this insecure childhood. but the interesting thing is if you looked at her, didn't know any of this, you would have thought she had the most perfect early years. probably an heiress. her father was so short on money that when she was farmington in high school, she later said that sometimes she would worry they would not be able to pay the tuition at the end of the tournament. she might have to leave. so we were talking about the strength of will and where it came from. this is someone who live in a way that was much more elite than 99% of human beings but at the same time, had its difficulties. >> father struggled with alcoholism. >> indeed. >> the extent of the wealth of her background of her family is important to understand the role she brought to it. where did the money come from? >> her father's family had been in finance. it was the family money that was lost. her money -- her father, her mother married an affluent man. he was not in the business of endowing his new wife's two children. when jackie took the job, she needed the salary. >> she liked to work. >> she was a worker. >> how did that affect her exposure to the city? how did she develop an affinity to this place? >> michael mentioned she made the first trip to the white house when she was preadolescent about 11 or 12 years old. that is her introduction to washington, d.c. when her mother marries him, they're married at marywood at michigan state. they summer at newport. that's her introduction of the culture of washington. jackie kennedy would say, oh, her first trip at that time to the national art gallery when she fell in love with art and the wonderful feeling it gave her to view art and sculpture. >> this was a life of privilege. >> she lived on a huge estate. she was always the poor relation. i'm not making an argument that she lived in hardship given the way most of human kind does and did live. but this is someone who felt there were challenges. >> she didn't know what her future would be but to marry well. which she did. >> how much of the attraction was that kennedy's family was very, very wealthy? >> it wasn't love at first sight. there wasn't chemistry immediately. when they were first introduced by the famous dinner party by the charlie bartels in 1951, there were no sparks. he seemed to want to ask her out. when he went out with her, there was another beau waiting for her, another male friend waiting for her. >> what was the age different? >> he was born in 1917, she in 1929. 12 years. >> they met several times before? >> she first met him on a train. she wrote about it. she said this congressman with reddish brown hair i met on the train, i don't think she had ever heard of him. he by then was in congress. he had a book and a famous father ambassador to england, that was not her world. >> he didn't remember. >> next up. you're on the air. >> what were her favorite hobbies? what did she like to do in her spare time? >> all right, thank you. sounds like we have another student watching us tonight. can you tell us about yourself? >> i'm 12 years old. >> doing wonderfully with 12-year-olds tonight. thank you for calling. >> i love history and watching channels and learning new things every time i turn on the tv. so i saw this channel and i decided to ask a question because i love history. >> i'm from chicago. >> how perfect to be 12 just the same age as jackie bouvier when she went to the white house? >> you asked about her hobbies. >> they put her in a saddle. she loved being in equestrian competitions. her mother was a rider. she loved all things canine as well. you see her with dogs. she liked to show dogs in competition. lots of dogs around them oftentimes even in the white house though the president was allergic to cats, dogs, and horses. so and she loved the solitude of reading, writing, and poetry and art. she started younger than you doing those hobbies. >> introduction to john kennedy. what was mrs. kennedy's relationship with president kennedy's siblings and siblings in law? how did she get along with the rest of the kennedy family? >> at first, she found it hard. i'm particularly glad to have a japanese question here given the fact that caroline kennedy is about to go to tokyo for president obama's ambassador to japan. she was an introvert. she liked to read. extrovert. the kennedys are gregarious and extroverted. took her a while to get used to that. >> her sister-in-laws didn't like the debutante way of speaking. they were out playing touch football and she'd prefer to read a book. >> this is talking about the life as a young wife of a senator. >> it might be like being a doctor's wife. a senator must be on call all the time. you don't know when he's on call. >> i suppose it is like being married to a doctor. they have such late hours, go away at a moment's notice. >> you are alone a good deal of the time then? >> yes. >> are you active in committees? or is your job big enough taking care of jack? >> that's it. >> yeah, now jack -- >> you're extremely brighter in this shot. >> you do it for him? clumsy. does he tell you what's going on his trips when he comes back. >> at breakfast, he reads about seven papers and runs out the door. he is describing something to you. he's not reading the paper there. >> you talk to her sometimes. >> i do, i do. all the time. >> and enjoy it, i'm sure. >> what should we take away from this and how she's describing the early days of her marriage? >> so fascinating, it's april of 1957, november of 1957, they had the first child, caroline. i guarantee you if they did that scene a year later, they would not be posing with a dog. >> was the relationship easy from the beginning or tough to get adjusted to many travels being on the road campaigning? >> it was very tough. we mentioned the medical problems that she had with the child bearing that he had with his back and other ailments. but he was gone so often. they also didn't have their own home. they tried hickory hill, which famously then became the robert f. kennedy homestead with his wife, ethel and 11 children living there. but jackie and jack had bought that. they thought to start their family. when she began to have the miscarriages and stillborn children, it was too painful. so they moved back into town. >> one of the small facts i realized is that she brought to hickory hill, which is across the river to mclean, virginia. >> it was there. it had been owned by general mcclellan at the civil war. >> the mansion had been there. >> jack and jackie sold it to bobby when they realized they would not be able to fill it with children. she spent all her time in 1955 and 1956 decorating it only to lose the children and the nursery and special shelves for jack so he would haven't to bend over or reach too high. it became a sad symbol. she was so isolated there. if they were in georgetown when they first rented a home and were first married, she could go back and forth to capitol hill and take him lunch. she was so completely isolated there they left. >> a facebook viewer wants to know if there were any known medical condition for all of her problem pregnancies. >> smoking could have been. she was a chain smoker. several packs a day. if that didn't lead to the problems of the actual pregnancies themselves, the lung conditions that john jr. and patrick who succumbed to it. and possibly the presidents, some of his medical conditions, perhaps even stds could have led to the problems with pregnancy. >> did jackie share john's drive to be president or was she comfortable as a senator's wife? >> she was comfortable as a senator's wife and was threatened by the notion of being first lady. i talked to fdr jr., a friend to both of them. he said that jackie essentially panicked after jack won the presidency in 1960. she didn't expect it. she was terrified by the adverse effect on their marriage and family life for them to be president and for her to be first lady. and he said to fdr jr., please talk to jackie and convince her it's not going to be bad. >> we have less than 20 minutes left. a long post white house life to cover. i want to go back to the 1964 video clip, film clip in those days. this is a message though the nation about all of the condolences messages that came to the white house. let's watch. [video clip] >> i wanted to take the opportunity to express my appreciation to the hundreds of thousands of messages, nearly 800,000 or more, which my children and i received over the past few weeks. the knowledge of the affection in which my husband was held by all of you has sustained me and the warmth of these tributes are something i will never forget. whenever i can bear to i read them. all his bright light gone from the world, all of you who have written to me know how much we all loved him and he retained that love in full measure. it is my greatest wish that all of these letters be acknowledged. they will be, but it will take a long time to do so. but i know you will understand. each and every message is to be treasured. not only for my children, but so future generations will know how much our country and people in other nations thought of him. your letters will be placed with his papers in the library to be erected in his memory along the charles river in boston, massachusetts. >> she talked about the establishment of the library. can you talk about what she did to preserve and enhance the legacy of john kennedy's presidency? >> it did start with the library. jfk looked at what was going to be the site of his presidential library on the boston side of the charles across the river from most of harvard. she started to raise money for it and she began to think about who should be the architect. most people would have found an established architect like edward dorrel stone who did the kennedy center here in washington, known for doing government buildings and in my view surpassing ugliness and massiveness. she employed one that was little known because she was thought he was much more in the spirit of j.f.k. who was young and was not well known himself. >> she also -- speaking of architect. she and the president had been friends with john carl weirneke. he had helped her with the saving of lafayette square and putting in low rise brick buildings that blended in. he designed the grave site. she worked hard with him on that as well. >> two years ago, they looked for a piece of paper. she had not left a piece of paper saying it should be closed for 100 years which some people thought, but she did tend to err on the side of these things should be closed for a longer time rather than a shorter time. from my experience, political leaders and their families tend to overdo it and keeping things closed. think that things will be sensitive and damaging sometimes to be opened earlier than they will turn out to be. lbj would be horrified that his tapes were open given some of language and would be shocked to find that many of the conversations that he thinks would have shown him as an uncouth back woodsman is what makes him cool. >> they've worked on the papers, receiving grants and donations to process them. they have released and they did for the 1962 to 2012 anniversary of the white house tour, they have begun to release mrs. kennedy's papers as they relate to the restoration. since i had to write that book without that available, arthur schlesinger's papers are a wonderful cache of mrs. kennedy's papers. he was a historian. >> the office was the first- called first ladies. >> in the east wing. >> dan watching, dan, what's your question. >> one comment and a quick question. the comment didn't understand how important the zapruder film was shown it in high school. as a 40-year-old high school history teacher, students in high school associate this young president to being in their lives also as a young man. students did in that time. and it's been the image that he's such a young dynamic man. the videotape showed it at the library, what was the relationship with the nixons? either president nixon or pat nixon? and mrs. kennedy after she left the white house? thank you again for a great series. >> the relationship was better than one might think. jackie kennedy found it appalling she would have to return to the white house after 1963. she thought it would be much too painful. she told the secret service agents in washington drive in a way i will never have to see the white house. i'll start crying again, one exception. 1970-1971, her and j.f.k.'s portraits were painted by the artist. they were about to be displayed in the nixon white house. the nixons said why don't you come down and see them quietly. she felt she owed it to jfk to do that. she brought her children, it was a totally off of the record visit they had dinner and she wrote to president nixon afterwards, she said a moment that i always dreaded, meaning returning to the white house, turned out to be one of the most important days i've ever spent with my children. so she was grateful to nixon for that. in later years she wasn't happy with nixon, particularly in watergate. a number of things that nixon tried to damage the reputation of kennedy. >> in 1968, she saw robert kennedy assassinated. the two were close. >> they were. thank goodness she wasn't in los angeles. >> yeah. >> but to have to go through that yet again. yes, they had been close. >> how concerned was she about security for herself and her children after -- >> terribly concerned after that. she supposedly said if they're killing kennedys, my children could be next. financial and physical security became so important to her. that was probably part of the attraction to mr. onassis. >> four months after rfk's death, she married. >> what happened to the public's perception? >> she was pulled off of the pedestal. people were outraged. many were outraged she would marry anyone at all rather than be an eternal widow, but particularly to marry someone who was this much older, not an american, and who was under some suspicion by the united states government, some of the financial activities. >> do we know that it was a happy relationship? >> i think of something her sister said not too many years ago about someone saying how could she have been attracted to such a man after being married to jack kennedy. her sister said, by the way, who had also had a romance with him prior to her sisters. >> meaning onassis? >> yes, not her brother-in-law. and she said he was quite charismatic. she said the way he moved and the way he looked and he may not have been a typical gq representation of a beautiful attractive man, but she was. jackie liked all things greek, she liked greek mythology and poetry. she found great comfort in the tragic poets of greece that she introduced brother-in-law robert to. so we can't say she wasn't attracted to him at all. but certainly the money and the physical security. he had his own island, scorpios. >> how long did it last? >> from '68 when he died in 1975. they were somewhat estranged. >> she would say that the marriage was quite good until january of '73 when aristotle onassis's son died in an accident and he blamed her. >> did she come back to new york city? >> she did. something many people did not expect. she decided to go to work and get a real job. she became an editor and then at double day. this was not someone who was just there for show business and acquiring bookings. she actually edited with great intensity. her authors were hugely loyal to her. so the last years of her life, she was happier than she'd often been in life. she had a relationship with a fine man, maurice, who i think this was a relationship with equals. this is different from her second marriage and perhaps her first. >> how close did she remain with her two children at this time? >> always very close with them. always so proud of them. edward's eulogy, she said when she spoke of them, her face would light up. >> her husband meeting, close to the prime minister, harold mcmillen. when she was in her deepest grief, she wrote mcmillen and said if i raise my children well, that will be my vengeance against the world. she felt she had achieved that vengeance. >> rose kennedy lived a very, very long life. bo hamlin wants to know how did jackie get along with rose kennedy. >> i'm going the take that. >> this is the question. >> it is. i just published a biography of rose kennedy. >> fine one, too. >> this past summer. they got along to begin with. she wrote to her mother-in-law and said dear mrs. kennedy, thank you so much for all of your good advice. rose kennedy liked to mete out plenty of advice. one of her favorite pieces she said stand at an angle when one is having a photograph taken because it makes one look slimmer. jackie said thank you, mrs. kennedy, for teaching me that lesson. she wrote kindly to her. after the assassination, there were issues of whether jackie would come back for the opening and the dedication for the kennedy center. she finally decided she couldn't. she couldn't face that. she couldn't face being that she said the widow kennedy for the rest of her life. she wanted to be with her children. it was just too painful. rose filled in with her. but you can see there was a little bit of tension but rose really appreciated that she would be invited often to be with mrs. kennedy and john and caroline. >> she got along with mr. onassis. >> and when people were giving her trouble for marrying mr. onassis, rose stuck up for her and said jack would have wanted her to be happy. >> you describe her as being homeless after the death of president kennedy and wanted to know why the family didn't bring her more support, bring her to the fold, give her a place to live. >> she had money. she had $150,000 from the trusts coming her way. bobby pitched in $50,000. >> this is mid '60s. >> times that times ten for today's dollars. by her standards, perhaps it wasn't enough. in terms of the physical place to live, she said in the famous interview with theodore white, the camelot interview the week after the assassination said she wanted to live with my children in the places i lived with jack. georgetown and on the cape. she could have gone to the cape. she went to georgetown. avril larriman loaned his home and she bought a home across the street. it was inundated with tourist buses, tourists, photographers, peeping into her windows and coming up on the porch. she couldn't bear it. after a relative few months, she took off for new york and spent the rest of her time there. >> did mrs. kennedy have to testify for the warren commission? >> she did. she did. june of 1964, earl warren and one or two others came to her parlor in georgetown and asked her about the motorcade. it was brief, i think it was less than a half an hour, but she did have to testify. that's on the record. some of her physical description of wounding and kept for sometime because it was too graphic. >> other questions, did she talk about what her own theories were? the theories continue to this day about the lone assassin, lee harvey oswald or a larger conspiracy? has she espoused an opinion? >> no, again, she kept her counsel in all things. >> dawn from colorado springs. >> hi. very, very grateful for your show. "the kennedys" were very inspiring to me. but my question is how important was jackie's catholic faith to her. >> both kennedys were catholics? how important was it? >> i think she would -- barbara will -- i'll just begin on this. she certainly considered herself catholic throughout her life. she had trouble when she remarried a divorced man outside of the faith, but although was supported in doing that to some extent by the family cardinal. i think one of the toughest things i find, in understanding public figures, two things, do you ever get to the real truth of someone's marriage if they're married? number two, do you get to the well -- to the bottom of what their religion feeling was? sometimes presidents and first ladies exaggerate that. sometimes there's more than that on the surface. >> michael pointed out through the oral history that she was having her doubts about her faith in those months at the -- >> she said i believe at this moment that god is an unjust god. >> exactly. >> she talks about her husband, jack, praying at night. maybe a superstition. >> she said he did it in case there was a god. >> but she also apparently spoke to a father confessor at georgetown university and mentioned she was having suicidal feelings about the assassination but decided that would not be the way to go. >> and with children? >> and with children. >> so we're going to close with jaclyn kennedy's years one last time. >> once in the white house, i felt i could get out. i can't tell you how oppressive with the strain of the white house can be. i could go out -- jack would see it was getting me down. he would send me away. he would say why don't you go to new york, go see your sister in italy, then he sent me to greece which was for a sad reason this year. but he thought i was getting depressed after losing patrick. he would say, i can go out, i can go to the restaurant in new york and walk down a street and look at an antique shot or go to a nightclub. i used to think -- inused to worry about going into the white house. but then you find out that it was really the happiest time in my life. but then you find out that it was really the happiest time in my life. >> i used to worry but then i find out they were the happiest years of my life. >> i think that was january. i think here's a case she had a bigger impact as first lady in
new frontier. >> we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy but because they are hard. >> it appears as though something has happened in the motorcade group. >> osgood: after dallas, the horror of his end, the dashed hopes of what might have been. throughout the morning we'll be remembering key moments of that have friday afternoon and the three days that followed and we'll be taking the measure of a kennedy legacy. the john f. kennedy who loom sod large in our national memory very much a mixture of fact and legend. rita braver will examine the facts, far teichner the legend. >> reporter: when you think of the kennedys, is it what actually happened during j.f.k.'s administration that comes to mind thor? >> think bank on all the pains that you remember. >> we all got to think that the kennedys were mythical. they were royal, they were beautiful. >> reporter: ahead, the immortality of camelot. >> osgood: during the good times first lady jacqueline kennedy played a very big part in the creation of the kennedy mystique. but it was in the worst of times that she made her most lasting mark, as susan spencer will show us. >> reporter: i when tragedy struck in 1963, one woman helped an entire nation heal. >> the reason for mrs. kennedy's iconography, sadly, is because of the way her husband's presidency ended. >> absent tragedy, would we remember her this way? the legend of jacqueline kennedy ahead. oz oz the official inquest into john kennedy's death named lee harvey oswald as the lone assassin. not good enough who believe a crime so immense can't have an explanation so small. we'll consider the case for conspiracy. >> reporter: will we ever know who killed president kennedy or have we always known but found the answer too hard to accept? you see conspiracy in a lot of places? >> i do because it's the nature of politics. it's the nature of power. governments lie. >> reporter: ahead, the conspiracy theory. >> osgood: much about john f. kennedy's life and death is still subject to debate. there's no disputing the symbolic power of his grave site. that's the story lee cowan has to tell. >> reporter: his resting place at arlington national cemetery is one of the most visited spots in the country-- even now. had it not been for an offhand remark, john f. kennedy might have been buried somewhere else. >> the president sort of wrote out his own funeral orders by a spontaneous comment he made. >> reporter: how the eternal flame came to be, later. >> reporter: there be be more besides what can only be a portrait of john fitzgerald kennedy. as always, we begin with the headlines for the 17th of november, 2013. church bells rang across the typhoon-ravaged philippines today. that as major international aid efforts begin to have an impact. the official death toll is now near 4,000. boeing announced today it has over 250 orders for its new 777-x. emirates airlines led the buying spree with 150 orders of the plane. the deal is worth $76 billion. the navy says an aerial target drone malfunctioned, striking a guided missile cruiser during training off southern california yesterday. two sailors were slightly injured. here's today's weather. the winds howling all over. it will be worst in the midwest where severe thunderstorms are expected. snowy in the northwest, warm in the northeast. in the week ahead, the east cools off and showers are coming. cold in the plains, wet in the northwest and sunny in the southwest.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, oz oz the this day millions of americans can remember what we were and where we were when we heard of the shooting of president kennedy. >> and now, for the next 30 minutes, "as the world turns." oz oz the viewers of the cbs soap opera "as the world turns." first word came at 1:40 p.m. eastern time. it happened too quickly for cameras to be in place. >> and i gave it a great deal of thought. >> here is a bulletin from cbs news. in dallas, texas, three shots were fired at president kennedy's motorcade at downtown dallas. the first reports say president kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting. >> osgood: then it was back to the soap opera. but not for long. soon after, walter cronkite was back reporting from the cbs news newsroom complete with rotary telephones and wire machines. >> this picture has just been transmitted by wire. it's a picture taken just a moment or two before the incident. if you can zoom in with that camera we can get a closer look at this picture. >> osgood: almost exactly one hour after his bulletin this now famous announcement. >> from dallas, texas, the flash apparently official. president kennedy died at 1:00 p.m. central standard time, 2:00 eastern standard time. some 38 minutes ago. vice president johnson has left the hospital in dallas but we do not know to where he has proceeded. presumably he will be taking the oath of office shortly and become the 36th president of the united states. >> osgood: walter cronkite's words marked an incomprehensible end to a presidency that had begun on such an inspiring note. rita braver looks back on the new frontier. >> let every nation know-- whether it wishes us well or ill-- that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty. (cheers and applause) >> reporter: he was the youngest elected president in history. >> the administration of president john fitzgerald kennedy begins. >> reporter: elected into office in the height of the cold war. a man endowed with grace, good looks and a wide ranging intellect. >> i believe not in an america that it's their friend. >> he had a gift for touching the best, humane, most idealistic impulses in america. he had a gift for rallying the country. >> reporter: and 50 years after his death, americans areti so we asked robert carroll and two other historians to help us explore john fitzgerald kennedy's life and his presidency. robert dallek believes part of the attraction is that kennedy died so young. >> he's frozen in our minds at the age of 46. people can't imagine that if he were alive he'd be 96 years old. so there he is still so youthful, so handsome, so charming, so witty. >> reporter: kennedy was also a very complicated human being. >> john f. kennedy was a marvelous human puzzle. you think you've solved it and suddenly something else happens. >> reporter: he was born in 1917 the second of nine children, into a legendary irish american family. his father joseph was a multimillionaire who served as ambassador great britain. in 1941, after graduating from harvard, john kennedy enlisted in the navy. as world war ii raged on, he took command of p.t.-109, a small torpedo boat that was ultimately cut in half by a japanese destroyer in the south pacific. >> he takes one of the men who was really injured, burned, takes his life belt and puts it between his teeth and swings something like a half mile to a nearby island dragging this man along with him. the. >> reporter: kennedy is hailed as a hero-- but it's only after his older breaux joe-- a naval aviator-- is killed in action that john kennedy decides on a political career serving in the house and then senate. >> representative john f. kennedy scores one of the few major democratic victories. >> it wasn't his father tapping him on the shoulder saying "boy, you're next." this is a very ambitious man. i think if you rated presidents on ambition i think kennedy would be at the top of the list. >> i'm here today to say that i am a candidate for the office of the president of the united states. >> reporter: that ambition leads ken i do run for the white house in 1960. ♪ everyone is voting for jack -- ♪ >> reporter: despite what was considered a lackluster congressional career. ♪ jack is on the right track because he's got ♪ high hopes >> reporter: what i don't understand from reading everything, what gives this man the kind of chutzpah to say "i'm going to be president"? >> well, you know, for one thing there's a genius about him. >> this is senator john f. kennedy of massachusetts. >> he can generalize from what he's watching and he knows that he's great on television. he knows there's a new force coming in politics in america and it's television. >> i accept the nomination of the democratic party. >> reporter: kennedy rolls over lyndon johnson and other more seasoned senators to become the democratic nominee. >> we disagree very fundamentally on the position of the united states. >> reporter: he then outshines vice president richard nixon, the republican candidate, in the first ever televised presidential debate. >> that's the argument between mr. nixon and myself and on that issue american supreme to make their judgment. >> reporter: and despite his youth, inexperience and catholic background, john f. kennedy wins the white house. >> so help me god. (cheers and applause) >> reporter: and delivers an inaugural address that still resounds. >> and so, my fellow americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. (cheers and applause) >> reporter: and he has big ideas. >> this car will be a pool of trained men and women send overseas. >> reporter: starting the peace corps and soaring to new heights in space. >> i believe this this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth. >> reporter: but just three months into office kennedy agrees to a risky operation to overthrow fidel castro's communist government in cuba. the bay of pigs invasion fails miserably. >> this is the cbs news extra. >> reporter: a year and a half later in october, 1962, there's a worldwide crisis after surveillance photos detect that the soviet union has placed nuke nuclear missiles in cuba. >> those are russian-made, russian-manned ballistic missile. >> reporter: kennedy orders a naval blockade and makes it clear if the russians don't yield the world could be headed for nuclear war. >> it shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from cuba against any nation in the western hemisphere as an attack by the soviet union on the united states. >> reporter: soviet leader nikita kruschev backs down. >> if you talk about kennedy's legacy, if he had no other legacy, in the cuban missile crisis he really did save the world what from what was a real threat of nuclear war. you know, if it doesn't happen it's like you think it couldn't have happened. that wasn't the case. >> reporter: but kennedy was facing his own personal struggles. he went to great lengths to hide his case of addison's, a disease of the adrenal glands. and he had intense back pain, wearing a brace under his clothes. >> how is your aching back? (laughter) >> it depends on the weather-- political and otherwise. (laughter) >> he not only put on the brace but he would take an ace bandage and wrap in the a figure 8 around his legs and around his back to give him greater support. >> reporter: and though she and jacqueline kennedy and their two children were the perfect picture of family bliss, history has shown john kennedy was a womanizer. >> he had call girls, he had serious glamorous women, he had some of the aides at the white house. i think there was a quality of excitement for him in this that he was -- he was a prince in the realm and he wasn't going to get caught. >> reporter: indeed, reporters at the time seemed blinded by kennedy's charm and humor. especially at his frequent press conferences. >> well, the answer is -- the first is yes and the second no. i don't recommend it to others. (laughter) >> reporter: but in november of 1963 he was focused on a host of serious foreign and domestic issues from trying to get a major civil rights bill passed to grappling we vents in vietnam toll what became his top priority: ensuring an era of peace. war. >> he's gone right up to the fence to shake hands with people. >> reporter: to do that he wanted a second term in office. so he and jackie decide to make a campaign trip to dallas. >> now they are waiting and here comes jackie waving by. >> reporter: then, as their motorcade makes its way through city -- it appears as though something has happened in the motorcade group. >> reporter: shots ring out. >> there has been a shooting. the hospital has been advised to stand by for a severe gunshot wound. >> reporter: leaving a stunned nation and an unfinished legacy. >> there's only one word to describe the picture here and that's grief. >> reporter: what was it that moved this nation so much? >> youth, grace, beauty, hope, promise, the crack of a gunshot, murder, horror, blood, assassination. as history goes on it will stay a very prominent part of his history. it's never going fade. it is never going to fade. over the next 40 years the united states population is going to grow by over 90 million people, and almost all that growth is going to be in cities. what's the healthiest and best way for them to grow so that they really become cauldrons of prosperity and cities of opportunity? what we have found is that if that family is moved into safe, clean affordable housing, places that have access to great school systems, access to jobs and multiple transportation modes then the neighborhood begins to thrive and then really really take off. the oxygen of community redevelopment is financing. and all this rebuilding that happened could not have happened without organizations like citi. citi has formed a partnership with our company so that we can take all the lessons from the revitalization of urban america to other cities. so we are now working in chicago and in washington, dc and newark. it's amazing how important safe, affordable housing is to the future of our society. ♪ i'm gonna do this... no... no... no... i'm gonna beat you this time ♪ yes... 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[ male announcer ] new robitussin dm max nighttime. fast, powerful cough relief that helps you sleep like a baby. robitussin nighttime. don't suffer the coughequences. ♪ well the first thing you know, old jed's a millionaire ♪ the kinfolks said jed, move away from there ♪ said california is the place you ought to be ♪ so they loaded up the truck and moved to beverly ♪ >> osgood: "the beverly hillbillies" was the number one t.v. show in 1963. what was life in america like back then? here's snapshot? >> you read caesars will to the sobbing murdering free citizens of rome. >> osgood: "cleopatra" starring elizabeth taylor and richard burton was the number one film at the box office and the average movie ticket cost 85 cents. a loaf of bread costs 22 cents. a gallon of gas 30 cents. not as cheap as it sounds considering the average wage was about $4,400 a year-- about $84 a week. the estimated population of the united states in 1963 was just over $189 million people. less than two-thirds what it is today. on november 22, 1963, americans could not call or text each other on their cell phones. cell phones didn't exist. in fact, the first push button land line phones had only gone into service four days before in two pennsylvania towns. the assassination created turmoil on the stock market. it forced it to shut down early. the dow closed at 711.49, down 21 points. a huge plunge at the times. general motors topped the fortune 500 list of biggest corporations that year. no apple, no microsoft, no google or facebook. america was in transition in 1963 in ways big and small. studebaker was the first u.s. car maker to offer automobile seat belts as standard equipment. on december 7 at president army/navy football game-- delayed by the assassination-- cbs broadcast the first instant replay in t.v. sports history. and as the old year rang out, the number one song on the billboard hot 100 was by the singing nun. the american debut of a four-man rock band was introduced. ♪ he'll regret it someday ♪ but this boy wants you back again ♪ ♪ [ corbett ] if you haven't checked your medicare drug plan this year, you could be at the corner of "i'm throwing away money" and "i had no idea." well, walgreens has your back. our expert pharmacists can help you find a plan that could save you more with our free comparison report. so you can keep your money where it belongs. check your plan at walgreens. and you could save up to 75% on prescription copays. at the corner of happy and healthy. i need all the help i can get. i tell them, "come straight to the table." i say, "it's breakfast time, not playtime." 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(laughter) >> she would talk a bare shoulder under the arm of an important man and whisper in their ear and men would just fall at her feet. >> i thought of her as just larger than life. >> reporter: people still think of her that way today. >> very much so. >> reporter: why do you think that is? >> she was young and she never aged. >> reporter: because time froze in dallas. the image of her blood-stained suit symbolizing a different side to jackie kennedy. >> somehow put steel in a backbone. that we can't go to pieces because she didn't. she was holding up the entire country and the world, because the world was grieving her husband. >> reporter: that point was emphasized by president johnson in a phone conversation just ten days after the assassination. >> there's mrs. kennedy in her breathy, flirty voice with lyndon johnson in his texas drawl flirty a accident,. >> it's very flirtatious, but that was the nature of those two people and part of their power in politics. >> there's an elusive charm to jacqueline kennedy and i think that's one of the reasons we're so fascinated. >> reporter: lisa kathleen bratty cure@it is first lady's dmibt washington, d.c. where mrs. kennedy costume pearls still are a huge draw. >> these pearls went at auction for $211,000. >> get out! >> reporter: they're fake and they probably cost about $300 to buy new. >> reporter: and in the vaults, more kennedy memorabilia. >> this is the creche in the east room. >> reporter: including the 1963 christmas card. never sent. >> this family was gone. this white house was gone in an instant. >> reporter: but no single instant can erase that enduring miss speak. >> young girls who were not alive come into this museum looking for this person that they are fascinated by that they want to emulate. that's the stuff of legend. ,,,,, >> it appears as though something has happened in the motorcade group. something, i repeat, has happened in the motorcade group. there are people running up the hill alongside elm street by the freeway. several police officers are rushing up the hill at this time. stand by just a moment, please. >> osgood: there was confusion almost from the first when the shots rang out in dallas-- thence formation of the warren commission, a special panel to investigate the assassination. but as tracy smith tells us, that investigation fell short of satisfying many who believed-- as some still do-- that there had to be more to this story. >> as of this moment the report of the president's commission is public record. >> reporter: 15 seconds after the warren report went public, walter cronkite summed it up. >> who killed john f. kennedy? the commission answers unequivocally lee harvey oswald with oswald acting alone. or was he a member of the conspiracy? the commission answers he acted alone. >> reporter: but even from the day the president was shot most americans had their doubts. in a 1963 gallup poll taken the week of the assassination, when asked if some group of element was also responsible for the killing more than half of u.s. adults said yes. in the absence of official information, rumors took route. the most common were that the mob was behind it, or the c.i.a. or fidel castro. just this year, former "new york times" reporter phillip sheen unanimous revealed that the warren commission went so far as to send a man to question castro face to face. in a clandestine meeting on a boat off the cuban coast, castro denied any part in the assassination. still, the conspiracy theories piled up. oswald with his cheap little rifle couldn't have done it alone. an unending trade of investigators and news outlets-- not the least of which cbs news-- spent years and whatever money it took to find evidence-- any evidence-- that the official story wasn't the whole story. >> did lee harvey oswald shoot president kennedy? cbs news concludes that he did. >> reporter: in the 1970s, the house select committee on assassination confirmed oswald's involvement but left the door open for the possibility of another gunman. >> secret service men all around. >> reporter: the conspiracy theory has been kept alive by other revelations over the years like a reported plot to kill kennedy in chicago three weeks before dallas. but few things fueled americans' belief in a conspiracy more than this. >> once you conclude the magic bullet could not create all seven of those wounds. >> reporter: in his 1991 film "j.f.k." director oliver stone made what might be the best case against the warren report. >> di definition there had to be a conspiracy. >> reporter: 22 years later stone is convinced he's right. >> government's lie. we've learned that since 1991 when the film came out that it's reinforced the notion that the governments have not been straight with us. >> reporter: do you see spearsys in everything? >> not in everything. we have conspiracies but we also have actions that happen randomly and accidents do happen. >> reporter: could it just be that we can't wrap our minds around the idea that the most powerful man in the world could be taken out by a nobody? >> but i can wrap my mind around that, sure. mckinley was taken out by an anarchist. lincoln was taken out by conspiracy, john wilkes booth was a totally emotional man. assassinations are often done by loaners. but i don't believe so in this case because of all the evidence around the plaza that day and the autopsy and the gun and the bullet and the thousand other reasons that i'm trying to tell you, too. >> reporter: stone didn't stop with his j.f.k. movie. his 12-hour documentary series "the untold history of the united states" which aired on the cbs owned cable network showtime fills in the gaps as he sees them in the rest of the 20th century. >> dwight eisenhower put the world on a glide path towards annihilation of the most gargantuan expansion of military power in history. >> reporter: but stone says we'll likely never have definitive proof of what happened in dallas. you don't think we will ever know? >> i don't think it's going to be a smoking gun like you think it is. but i think if you go to the negatives and add them up your lodge lick lead you-- like sherlock holmes said-- to a deduction. and the deduction is that he was removed. >> reporter: by more than one man. >> yes. by more than one man. he was removed by our government. not the entire government, i'm sorry. by certain elements in the c.i.a., i believe, controlled this operation. they're very good at this game. >> reporter: today questions about single-bullets and lone assassins are still being asked. but the answers are-- in essence-- always the same. you essentially put lee harvey oswald on trial and you won. you convicted him. >> yeah. >> reporter: former los angeles county prosecutor vincent buell east coastsy knows a thing or two about evidence. he put charles man son behind bars. >> is this what you expected? >> yes, definitely. >> reporter: he wrote a 1500 page analysis with the warren report and walked away convinced the commission got it right. >> i'm not just satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt of oswald's guilt, i'm satisfied beyond all doubt. it's not an open question. >> reporter: beyond all doubt? >> beyond all doubt. >> reporter: even though oswald said he was a patsy and never admitted to any of it. >> that doesn't mean anything! if he had the immorality and the boldness to kill the president of the united states certainly he had much the much lesser immorality to deny doing it. >> reporter: why are you convinced there was no conspiracy? >> i told the jury once, i said, folksly stipulate that three people can keep a secret but only if two are dead. and here after 50 years not one credible word of a conspiracy. not one syllable as leaked out. why because there's nothing to leak out. it's all simple unadulterated nonsense. >> reporter: and there are signs that more people are indeed wrapping their heads-- if not their hearts-- around the idea that oswald did act alone. a recent cbs news poll shows a majority still believe others were involved, but that number is declining from 75%20 years ago to 61% today. >> here comes oswald down the hall again. >> reporter: now as then it was unfathomable. >> i emphatically deny these charges. >> reporter: cbs news commentator eric sever ride might have said it best. >> what fed the conspiracy notion about the kennedy assassination among many americans was the here is incongruity of the affair. all that power and majesty wiped out in an instant by one skinny weak chinned little character. it was like believing that the queen mary had sunk without a trace because of a log floating somewhere in the atlantic. >> reporter: and that conspiracy notion may likely exist 50 years from now. truth is, no amount of kefd explain what has been to so many the unexplainable. ment plan. i started part-time, now i'm a manager. my employer matches my charitable giving. really. i get bonuses even working part-time. where i work, over 400 people are promoted every day. healthcare starting under $40 a month. i got education benefits. i work at walmart. i'm a pharmacist. sales associate. i manage produce. i work in logistics. there's more to walmart than you think. vo: opportunity. that's the real walmart. your bristles are so slim! 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[ male announcer ] you're not you when you're hungry®. snickers® satisfies. what does an apron have to do with car insurance? an apron is hard work. an apron is pride in what you do. an apron is not quitting until you've made something a little better. what does an apron have to do with car insurance? for us, everything. >> osgood: the name jack ruby is an essential part of what happened 50 years ago. for one extended family member, the name is also a good one. our denl reynolds has sought her out. >> this is the basement floor of the dallas city hall. >> he's been shot. oswald has been shot! >> it was sunday, we always had chinese food on sunday. i. >> reporter: so it was an unremarkable sunday. >> there were police at our table eating chinese food, too. >> reporter: joyce berman remembers that day in november half a century ago when her mother unexpectedly picked her up from a friend's birthday party and took her home with the briefest and bluntest of words. >> she just said "your uncle killed somebody very famous." >> reporter: joyce was joyce ruby back then, nine years old, the niece of a dallas nightclub owner named jack ruby. the man who assassinated the assassin on network television. >> now moves in front of oswald, shot sounds. >> here comes oswald, he's -- he is ashen and unconscious at this time, now being moved in. he's not moving. >> i didn't feel any different except for my last name being ruby and as soon as somebody knew what my last name was they would ask me questions. >> reporter: like? >> "are you related to jack?" >> reporter: when your uncle shot oswald did you comprehend it? >> no, i didn't know him. i'd only met him when i was an infant so i had no recollection of this person. >> reporter: so this is the south field house? >> yes. >> reporter: the instant notoriety was bewildering and frightening to this child in the detroit suburbs. >> i remember hearing shots behind the house. that's when they sent more police. >> reporter: gunshots? >> reporter: those shots led to orders to stay indoors. later came the taunts at school and the friendships that dissolved. >> i had a friend and she was not allowed to come to my house anymore since my uncle had a gun my father would have a gun and it wasn't safe. >> reporter: her father was earl ruby, jack's youngest brother, the owner of a dry cleaners in detroit. >> i remember my father talking about my uncle as very patriotic loved president kennedy and was really, really upset when kennedy was shot and killed. >> reporter: as remarks he made during his trial and afterward make clear, jack ruby never denied his guilt. how could he? the whole world saw him do it. >> we the jury find the defendant guilty of murder with malice as charged in the indictment and assess his punishment at death. >> reporter: jack ruby died in 1967 while awaiting a second trial. but for earl ruby, there was still work to do. >> he didn't want to kill oswald in the first place. he only wanted to hurt him. >> he didn't want people to think that my uncle was part of any kind of plot to kill, one, the president who he loved so much and then to be part of a conspiracy against our government. i just think he wanted to clear that idea. >>. >> reporter: so these are the telegrams your uncle received in the jail? >> yes. >> reporter: many of them were laudatory. >> congratulations, job well done, god bless you. has of the. congratulations for your most heroic and dynamic act. >> reporter: joyce's home became a repository for jack ruby documents and mementos after her father divide in 2006. this letter to your father from jack in which he still is trying to explain himself. this is, like, three years after the weekend in dallas and he says "i was never involved in any conspiracy and did not plan to shoot him. after it happened i didn't know what i had done." then he says "oh, earl, how i wish this had never happened." it's incredible. he signs it jack ruby. not like jack. i mean, it's almost as though he knew the historic value of a letter like this. after reading through so much of this stuff and piecing together what she was told of her uncle, a conspiracy seems very unlikely to her. and she pointed us to a very mundane consideration. >> he had no children but he always had pets, dogs. and he left his dogs at home when he went to the dallas county jail. and if he knew he was going to do this, he would have made sure his dogs were taken care of. >> reporter: today, joyce berman is no different than anyone else who lived through those days half a century ago-- still pondering the same old question without a satisfying answer. >> you know, i wonder why was he there? i mean, the press, okay. and the police escorting oswald, okay. i mean, there's certain people in are going to be there. why was he allowed to be there? i have a question about that.,,, ♪ camelot, camelot! ♪ >> reporter: glamorous and dashing as john f. kennedy appeared in life he has become even more so in retrospect thanks in large part to a highly publicized comparison that evoked an imaginary golden time. the with martha teichner now we revisit camelot. >> reporter: it was jackie kennedy who brought up those lines her husband loved from a broadway show. "don't let it be forgot." that once there was a spot ♪ that once there was a spot for one brief shining moment ♪ called camelot >> reporter: it was in an interview with "life" magazine two weeks after j.f.k.'s death she said "there will be great presidents again, but there will never be another camelot again." yes, camelot. like king arthur's mythical land. so powerful an image in 50 years later, say the word and this is all most of us see. as if there'd been no dark side. >> you're about to see john f. kennedy, democratic senator from massachusetts, face the nation. >> reporter: the myth making began when j.f.k.'s presidency was an ambition long before it was a fact. what we think of now as the classic camelot pictures were joseph kennedy, sr.'s idea. he had run a hollywood movie studio. >> he was a visionary. he recognized from very, very early in the game the power of the image >> reporter: i indira williams is creator of "creating camelot" at the museum in washington. >> it's a vision of a royalty type family. >> reporter: images by jacques lowe, the photographer kennedy hired in 1958, in his words-- to sell jack like soap flakes." >> he had just come back from 14 days of campaigning. >> reporter: "sunday morning" interviewed him in 1993. he died in 2001. >> the last person he wanted to see was a photographer. but, you know, daddy said, hey this is going to happen. okay. >> this is the first photo in the shoot and you can see he's still not very enthusiastic about doing this on his day off. and then caroline gets introduced and his face just lights up. you see he's smiling, he's more relaxed. >> reporter: when j.f.k. saw the pictures, he got it. jacques lowe became the kennedy's personal photographer. he left shortly after the inauguration and the position of official white house photographer was created. there had never been one before. ♪ do you want a man for president who's seasoned through and through ♪ >> reporter: the kennedys did and didn't look like everybody else's family. they were rich and sleek and the camera ate them up. the president was shameless about having his children photographed-- often against jackie's wishes. jack and jackie were, it seemed, in color. this is what their predecessors in the white house had looked like. >> there are these people who transcend ordinariness. the kennedys weren't ordinary. >> reporter: is it because of the visual imagely. >> visual, visual, visual. >> reporter: j.f.k. biography richard reeves edited the book "portrait of camelot." >> they were beautiful, they were young, they were hip, candid if not always telling the truth. >> reporter: theirs was a fabulous picture story, well edited. another joe kennedy quote "it's not what you are that counts but what people think you are." americans didn't see jackie smoking, didn't know that the pictures could lie. >> we the american people saw the john kennedy -- thought that john kennedy was kind of the image of energy and good health when, in fact, he was sick his whole life. it was only later we found out how bad his health really was, that he had received the last rites of the catholic church three times when his family thought he was dying. >> one of the most famous pictures of president kennedy was taken by a "new york times" photographer. if. >> reporter: pete souza is chief white house photographer for president obama. >> the title of the photograph is "the loneliest job." and the reality of that picture is he's standing up and he's got his hands on the table because of his bad back. >> reporter: the job has changed since the kennedys from controlled to nearly total fly on the wall access. historical documentation, not much myth making. when you see those intimate photographs with the kennedy children knowing what you do how does that strike you? >> i think it does tell you a lot about him as a person, as a human being, not just in his role as president. >> reporter: his assassination, did people take it personally because they had seen little children around the president's desk? >> yes i think that had a big effect. we're old enough to know that the shock was just unbelievable. we couldn't believe this could happen to him and to us. it was the end of innocence, the end of america seeing itself in a certain way-- that everybody loves us, that they all want to be like us. >> reporter: he looked like hope in all those magical pictures. looked like optimism. ♪ think back on all the tales you remember ♪ >> reporter: the pictures tell the story-- a story of this man and his family caught in the mind's eye of the world. forever young in camelot. >> osgood: coming up -- >> do not ask what this country can do for you that. 's one of my original lines. >> osgood: that's when the laughing stopped. ,,,,,,,,,,,, >> osgood: when dawn broke on november 22, 19163 the most popular comic was a man named vaughn peter. >> the past three years there's somebody going around this country impersonateing me. >> osgood: a nightclub entertainer who hitched his store president kennedy's fame. >> i didn't mind around the washington, d.c. area but now it's gone just a little bit too far. >> osgood: in fact, his parody of the kennedy white house was the fastest selling record in history. it won the grammy award for "album of the year in 1962." ♪ jackie, don't you frown, my game's really easy ♪ >> osgood: it caught the attention of the president himself. >> i read mr. mader's record but i thought it sounded like teddy more than me. >> osgood: in his later years before his death in 2004 he worked as a part time musician and pub manager in his native maine. vaughn meader often described november 22 in 1963 as, in his words "the day i died." ta-da! whoa. ♪ showtime. agh! there's me! there's me! there's me! ♪ boom. ohhhh! ♪ accomplishing even little things can become major victories. i'm phil mickelson, pro golfer. when i was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis, my rheumatologist prescribed enbrel for my pain and stiffness, and to help stop joint damage. 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[ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. no, i'm good. ♪ [ male announcer ] every time you say no to a cigarette, you celebrate a little win. nicorette mini delivers fast craving relief in just 3 minutes. double your chances of quitting with nicorette mini. >> john fitzgerald kennedy, 35th president of the united states, leaving the white house for the last time. >> osgood: sunday, november 24, jacqueline kennedy and children caroline and john, jr., leave the white house to accompany president kennedy's body the capitol rotunda where it will lie in state. the words john f. kennedy spoke in public are an indelible part of our shared history. but to some americans, the words he wrote in private are what they'll remember most. here's michelle miller. >> reporter: "dear mrs. wily --" 50 years ago patricia kelleher, then patricia wily, received a letter from the president. >> "kennedy and i want to express our very deepest sympathy." >> reporter: her husband, lieutenant john wiley had just died in a catastrophic accident that killed all aboard the u.s.s. "thresher," a nuclear powered submarine. president kennedy had actually handed lieutenant wiley his diploma from the naval academy two years before and patricia herself had met the young senator in his office as a college student. >> he said "i want you to know of my personal feelings of loss." that seemed to come from the heart. >> reporter: that letter is now among thousands at the kennedy library and museum in boston. >> i truly believe that you can tell more about kennedy the man, kennedy the president, these incredible times that he lived in through these letter than all the books that have ever been written about him. >> reporter: so martin sandler's new book is about kennedy's letters. a library archivist let us see them. wow! now we don't touch these, right? >> no, we don't. >> reporter: there is everything from applause to school children who supported him. >> i'm grateful to you for your outstanding efforts on my behalf. >> reporter: to a note from the queen of england. >> it's difficult to read it because it's in her scratchy handwriting. >> reporter: i hope she's not watching! the letters show kennedy grabling with a whole world's worth of issues. when civil rights leaders were met with violence in the south, they pleaded with kennedy for help. he responded with a telegram demanding the governor of mississippi enforce the law. >> and then he says "i would like that hear from you this evening by wire." i'm the president of the united states, you damn well better. >> reporter: but letters were never more important than during the cuban missile crisis. kennedy and soviet premier nikita kruschev agreed to stay in touch with a continuous exchange of notes. how crucial were these letters in diffusing this crisis? >> in essence, you're looking at the pieces of paper that avoided a nuclear war. >> reporter: tom putnam, the director of the kennedy library, showed us an early message from kennedy. >> this all started due to the actions of your government so you're the one who has to remove missiles. >> reporter: so you have to back off? >> exactly. kruschev replies "no, mr. president, i cannot agree to this. i think in your heart your recognize i'm correct." >> reporter: but as the letters go back and forth, face saving compromises the show up. kruschev says -- >> i'll agree to remove the missiles if you promise not to invade cuba. so here is president kennedy responding and basically saying "okay, i think we're getting close toe a deal." >> reporter: the range of people in kennedy's correspondence is enormous, from poet robert frost to a japanese officer aboard the destroyer that sank kennedy's p.t. boat during world war ii. he also heard from former presidents. >> mr. president, in my opinion you are on the right track, don't let them tell you what to do. you tell them, as you have. sincerely, harry truman." >> reporter: after the assassination, letters continued to pour into the white house, but now they were letters of condolence to jacqueline kennedy. and perhaps none was as poignant as the letter from the widow of lieutenant john wiley of the u.s.s. "thresher." >> what inspired me was certainly remembering his letter to me but also seeing her on television and seeing her shocked and stunned face. i felt that was me. "dear mrs. kennedy, my deepette sympathy on the track i can loss of your husband. if i could take away the sorrow and pain, i would, but i can only share it." >> reporter: and she shared some of the words that president kennedy had written to her only a few months before. >> "it is a sad fact of his they this price of freedom must be paid again and again by our best young men in each generation." 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"last night when we were young." "it was a very good year." ♪ i'm in the autumn of the year the and now i think of my life ♪ >> reporter: all the disillusioned don drapers nodded along. it was if in that winter between the death of john kennedy and the coming of the beatles a whole generation went from optimistic youth to disappointed middle age. after the assassination, the journalist mary mcgrory said "we'll never laugh again." and kennedy aide daniel patrick moynihan famously replied "mary, we will laugh again, it's just that we will never be young again." it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. that's why, 50 years later, the death of john f. kennedy still resonates so powerfully with those of us who were kids at the time. it was the moment when our parents went from believing in all the great things that were going to be to regretting what might have been. >> osgood: ahead, for all time. and had them show us. r we learned a lot of us have known someone who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ to severe plaque psoriasis... the frustration... covering up. so i talked with my doctor. he prescribed enbrel. enbrel is clinically proven to provide clearer skin. many people saw 75% clearance in 3 months. and enbrel helped keep skin clearer at 6 months. 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[ male announcer ] how could a luminous protein in jellyfish, impact life expectancy in the u.s., real estate in hong kong, and the optics industry in germany? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 70% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. i get out a lot... except when it's too cold. like the last three weekends. asthma doesn't affect my job... you missed the meeting again last week! it doesn't affect my family. your coughing woke me up again. i wish you'd take me to the park. i don't use my rescue inhaler a lot... depends on what you mean by a lot. coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com, then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma. >> osgood: monday, november 25. three days after the assassination the solemn procession carried not his final resting place of arlington national cemetery across the potomac in washington. and arlington is where our remembrance of president kennedy draws to a close as well. as lee cowan is about to remind us, the flame lit by the first lady back then, still burns today. >> reporter: for half a century now through wind and rain and hail and snow it's flickered its solemn duty. grief and hope made tangible in the glow of a flame. lighting it was the last public duty mrs. kennedy had that sad day. just where the first lady got the idea for the eternal flame isn't known for sure. perhaps it was their trip to paris or later visit to gettysburg. either way, author robert poole says the first lady knew it had to be here. >> she wanted arlington so that president kennedy would belong to the nation. >> reporter: arlington's section 45 wasn't meant as a presidential resting place. after all, the hill is pretty steep. but that hill mattered. it was a favorite spot for the president. he had visited arlington house-- that old mansion atop that hill-- just eight months before dallas. and while admiring the view from up here, he said something that day that was chillingly prophetic. >> kennedy just sort of drunk in the scene, he said "i could stay here forever." >> reporter: really. >> here's here now. >> reporter: so much about that weekend was unexpected. but less than 24 hours before the barrier the superintendent of arlington got a call that surprised everyone. >> and somebody from the military district of washington saying "mrs. kennedy wants an eternal flame." and he basically said "what's an eternal flame?" >> reporter: with the clock ticking, the job fell to a group of army engineers, notely colonel clayton lyle and lieutenant colonel bernard carroll. >> my dad had a way of being very good under pressure. >> reporter: kairpl's daughter remembers it was a sunday, every hardware store was closed. so carroll and lyle improvised. their idea? a hawaiian luau torch. >> i can just see my dad thinking "well, this would work." >> reporter: but somehow mrs. kennedy going to light it? well, kathy's had an answer for that, too. this. >> i don't know what i was expecting but i think i was expecting something a little busier. >> it's definitely just a simple piece of wire with just a piece of cloth that was doused in kerosene, i believe. doesn't have to be fancy to work >> reporter: and work it did. bill morris watched that lighting unfold. so it was a day pretty much just like this. >> it was a very similar day, sunshine, bright blue skies and clouds. >> reporter: a member of the army's old guard, morris was part of the grim pro stogs arlington that day and was later assigned to duty of guarding the flame as the nation came to pay its respects. >> in the morning they'd open the gates and it was like a flood of humanity coming up the roads. nobody was prepared for that. >> reporter: least of all the flame itself which-- try as it might-- wasn't exactly eternal. >> if you were assigned to the eternal flame you had to have a lighter in your pocket. every time wind blew, it went out. >> reporter: it was even extinguished by a nun who accidentally blessed it with too much holy water. but eventually this flame was replaced by a more permanent more reliable system that lasted more than 40 years-- until last spring when the flame underwent its first major renovation. although new, it's still the same idea those engineers had all those years ago. what do you think he'd think that it's shrill? his task was to make an eternal flame and... >> and it's eternal. that means forever. >> reporter: it may have been a last minute addition, but mrs. kennedy's simple idea has offered eternal measures of solace and peace ever since. >> one of the first things that happens in genesis is "let there be light." light out of the darkness. there's some aspect of that at work, i think, and her decision to have an eternal flame here maybe was purely instinctive but it i think had the effect she wanted it to have and then some. >> osgood: correspondent lee cowan. coming up, "face the nation" continues our remembrance of the kennedy assassination with bob schieffer in dallas at the sixth floor museum. and we'll be back in a moment. >> "sunday morning's" >> osgood: we leave you there sunday on president kennedy's beloved cape cod, home to a national seashore established during the first year of his presidency. >> osgood: i'm charles osgood. please join us again next "sunday morning" for our annual food issue. until then, i'll see you on the radio. know the feeling? copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. does breathing with copd weigh you down? don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva. captioning made possible by johnson & johnson, where quality products for the american family have been a tradition for generations captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org announcer: right now at sleep train, announcer: >> this is kpix 5 news. >> just ahead on kpix 5 news, aid to the philippines starting to make more progress as big center the title and devastation becomes more clear. >> a car accident shut down the bay area highway. we tell you why it took hours to reopen. >> and is the bay area about to endure another transit strike? how the discovery of an error is putting the agreement in jeopardy. thanks for joining us. >> i'm so material. a lot of news and talk to cover in the next hour. top story in the upcoming week is bart. >> it's bizarre that we are talking about this again. it turns out
now, if that idea, the black experience, sparked mental images of police brutality and racial injustice, that's kind of the problem. and we'll hear from you. who matters the most to you as you help fight covid-19, especially with the holidays on the way? on january 20th, president trump leaves office. he'll also leave behind the legal protections that have insulated him from prosecution. he could face a lot of legal trouble when he returns to civilian life. cases against him are moving forward in federal and state courts. those could also entangle his family. new york state is investigating tax deductions at the trump organization. some of them might have benefited ivanka trump financially. reports of that investigation led the president's daughter to tweet that it was, in her words, ruthless harassment. for more on this, we are joined by paul butler, a former federal prosecutor, a law professor at georgetown university, and an msnbc legal analyst. paul, give us a sense of the difference between some of the state and federal prosecutions. >> so the federal prosecution, the one that trump has the most exposure from, is in the southern district of new york, and it stems from the investigation of michael cohen. when michael cohen was indicted, the agreement from the federal justice department prosecutors who report to the attorney general describe president trump as individual-1. if he weren't the president, he almost certainly would have been indicted. so trump has enjoyed immunity from prosecution because he's a sitting president. but as you acknowledged, joshua, on january 20th, after president-elect biden is sworn in, game over. prosecutors and investigators have an embarrassment of riches. again, i think he's got the most exposure in the southern district of new york, but he's also facing serious potential charges in state court in new york as well. >> yeah, let's take a look at some of the main ongoing cases against president trump. we've got the manhattan d.a. looking into michael cohen's payments to stormy daniels. that's the individual-1 case where we clearly assume that that's referring to president trump. also new york's state attorney general is investigating some real estate projects of the trump organization. allegations by multiple women who have accused him of inappropriate sexual misconduct. that was moved from state to federal court. the doj had been acting as president trump's counsel. how much does that affect all this, that he can't pull from the justice department to defend him? >> well, you know, he should never have been doing that in the first place. it's just that bill barr was confused about whether he was the attorney general of the united states or president trump's fixer and lawyer in the mode of roy cohn, and he apparently chose the latter. but the reality is on january 21st, president trump will be an ordinary american citizen subject to prosecution and investigation. and, yes, he's looking at cases involving the attorney general of new york, letitia james. she's investigating his organization and reportedly eric trump, the president's son, has already been deposed in that investigation. the interesting thing about state and local investigations, joshua, is the president can't pardon himself out of that. there's an important constitutional question about whether trump could pardon himself at all, including for federal crimes. but there's no question that he cannot pardon himself if he's charged with a state crime. >> and i just want to clarify with regards to the sexual misconduct allegations, the case involving one of the men accusing him of sexual misconduct was moved from state to federal court. but what kinds of punishments, paul, that you think that he might face? some law enforcement observers tell us it might be more likely to be in the form of financial punishments like civil fines versus actually going to prison. >> you know, that's typical for white collar crimes. tax cases are notoriously difficult to prove. i can't believe we're saying this about the president of the united states, but it's possible that he might be willing to enter a plea agreement because these cases would be very politically divisive. there's not a whole lot of incentive, especially for federal prosecutors, to bring cases. on the other hand, there's the idea that no person is above the law, that this is a country that values equal justice under the law, including for the ex-president. so joe biden reportedly has said that he thinks that prosecution of president or former president trump would be too divisive. he doesn't want to place "locker -- lock her up" with "lock him up." i get that but at the same time if we've got a district or a prosecutor who's got evidence of criminality for donald trump, he should not walk away from that evidence. >> is there anything the president might do after he's no longer president to evade this prosecution? we were talking about if he might move to mar-a-lago to avoid the new york attorney general getting at him or manhattan's d.a. getting at him for prosecution. palm beach county david erinberg is a democrat. i don't think that would insulate him. are there other avenues he might have to slip away from dealing with the long arm of the law? short >> short of moving to a nation that does not have an extradition treaty with the united states, i can't think of anything. a lot of business conduct he's been investigated for happened before he was president. so there will be statute of limitations issues, but in terms of whether ultimately he can evade the long arm of the law, not after january 20th. >> former federal prosecutor paul butler. paul, thanks very much. >> always a pleasure. president-elect biden will soon have to decide how to handle the ongoing federal investigations of donald trump. during the campaign, one voter asked mr. biden about pardons. >> would you be willing to commit to not pulling the president forward and giving donald trump a pardon under the pretense of healing the nation? >> absolutely yes, i commit. >> his desire for national unity might make him wary of pursuing charges against mr. trump. he has reportedly told advisers he wants to avoid doing anything to further divide the country. one adviser said, quote, he just wants to move on. for more on this, we're joined by professor barbara perry, co-chair of the presidential oral history program at the university of virginia's miller center. it specializes in presidential scholarship, public policy, and political history. professor perry, good evening. good to see you again. >> great to be with you, joshua. >> what does history teach us about how we've dealt with this with presidents? you heard that voter saying he didn't want joe biden to pull a president ford a la the way that he kind of pre-pardoned richard nixon after the nixon resignation. >> i thought that was an interesting question to put to candidate biden and to have candidate biden answer it without any reservations. in other words, he would not pull a gerald ford. going back to gerald ford's time, i understand why he pardoned -- gave a pre-pardon, as you said, to rich nixon for any kind of criminal activity he may have engaged in and may have been brought to trial for and may have been convicted for. he really was trying to get past the long national nightmare of watergate. and i should say that while it probably cost gerald ford the election to jimmy carter in 1976 because it was a close election, and that would have been enough, the gerald ford pardon of nixon would have been enough to cause him to lose it, some many decades later, the john f. kennedy library gave gerald ford its profile in courage award because they thought in retrospect, it was the thing to do. it's hard to believe that that would be the case many decades after this, and i just don't see joe biden doing it, and i think it's a very wise thing for him not to do. >> by the way, let's listen to a clip of gerald ford speaking about his decision to pardon richard nixon. listen. >> i became greatly concerned that if mr. nixon's prosecution and trial were prolonged, the passions generated over a long period of time would seriously disrupt the healing of our country. we have a long record of forgiving those who have been our country's most destructive foes. >> professor perry, i can understand at least part of the argument that gerald ford was making. i mean when a president is investigated, it throws the whole country into chaos. i mean look at bill clinton and the starr investigation, the independent counsel. we changed the rules on those kind of independent counsels to become a special counsel like robert mueller because of the scope of it, and it just sucked the whole country into a rabbit hole that we couldn't get out of till it was -- well, i'm still not sure we're fully out of it. >> probably not. i would point out, joshua, that gerald ford, as a sitting president, was testifying before congress. so in other words, his pardon of richard nixon for anything that he might have done while president was so controversial that congress hauled him up to capitol hill, and we should note that gerald ford had spent most of his life on capitol hill as a congressman from grand rapids, michigan, and was much beloved by his colleagues. but he was really called to task by the congress in those days. so i think it's pretty clear that that's not a road that joe biden wants to go down. >> take a look at article 2, section 2 of the constitution regarding pardons. here's what it reads. quote, that the president, quote, shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the united states except in cases of impeachment, unquote. now, we have heard talk of president trump pardoning himself. would the constitution actually allow that, or is that just the kind of thing that we think about in our dystopian 2020? >> i don't see it. just as you showed that wording from article 2 of the constitution. and certainly no president has ever attempted to do it. i did hear ted olsen, the great litigator, and the winner of the bush v. gore cases in 2000 say that because the constitution didn't say that a president couldn't do it, that therefore he could. i just can't agree with him on that, and i would have to say that those conservatives who particularly talk about the intentions of the framers of the constitution, the original intent of the framers, it's hard for me to believe that in a system they created where we were supposed to be a country of laws, not of men, that they would have allowed for a president to pardon himself. >> how much do you think we should actually be worried about this right now? we have had conversations about whether donald trump can pardon himself, whether if he resigned before january 20th, mike pence becomes the acting president, and he can pardon donald trump. and then i think to myself, well, that's possible. but if the democrats win the house and the senate and have won the white house, theoretically then they could maybe bring impeachment against president trump and convict him, which would ban him from running for office from the rest of his life. so he couldn't run for president again. and when i fall into that hole, i think, don't you have a life to live, joshua johnson? why are you thinking about this? this feels like problems that might tie us in a knot that we will never have to deal with. >> right, and we would rather be watching the christmas story movie, i think i heard you say a little bit earlier in this show. >> right. thank you. >> there we go. yeah. those of us who study constitutional law and are political scientists can't wait to talk about these issues and get our teeth into them, so we're so glad you bring them to the fore. and people are talking about them. so, yes, they are talking about them. should they? i think that the issue for joe biden, for example, whether he would pardon donald trump or whether he would pursue him by legal avenues is such that given covid, given the economy, given the holidays coming upon us, given that we have a president who is refusing to concede and then some people say maybe refusing to leave the white house, i would put all those things ahead of this. but it is something to consider, and it certainly is something that the biden team has to be considering, and especially going into the administration. >> professor barbara perry, director of presidential studies at the university of virginia's miller center. professor, thanks very much. >> thank you, joshua. up next, many national republican officials are saying nothing against president trump's election fraud claims. but some local gop officials are speaking up. why the difference? plus we'll speak to the author of a new feature series on the black experience in america. that's the whole experience, including the good parts. but first, richard lui is here with the headlines. good evening to you, stories we're following this hour. the trump administration formally withdrew the u.s. from the open skies treaty. the 1992 treaty allowed the u.s. and 33 allies to fly reconnaissance flights over each other's territories. president-elect biden criticized the move for limiting the ability of the u.s. to observe russia. hundreds of protesters burned part of guatemala's congress building. they were demonstrating against corruption and the passionaage controversial budget that cut education and health spending. thousands of cars lined up in atlanta for groceries and gift cards donated by tyler perry. the director's production company said there were enough supplies for 5,000 families. more of "the week" with joshua johnson right after the break. hmph... 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[phone rings] "sore throat pain? try new vicks vapocool drops in honey lemon chill for a fast-acting rush of relief like you've never tasted in... ♪ honey lemon ahh woo vicks vapocool drops now in honey lemon chill a new buick? for me? to james, from james. that's just what i wanted. is this a new buick? i secret santa-ed myself. i shouldn't have. but i have been very good this year. wow! wow! wow! this year, turn black friday into buick friday all month long. now during buick friday, pay no interest for 84 months on most 20-20 buick suv models. i'm a proud trump supporter. i was with him early in the 2016 election cycle, and he's governs the nation by the same conservative principles that i hold dear. like other republicans, i'm disappointed our candidate didn't win georgia's electoral votes. working as an engineer throughout my life, i live by the motto that numbers don't lie. as secretary of state, i believe that the numbers that we have presented today are correct. the numbers reflect the verdict of the people. >> georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger acknowledged joe biden as the president-elect. he is among a growing group of republican state officials who have. most republicans on capitol hill have not. their silence contrasts loudly with the election fraud claims being spread by rudy giuliani and president trump's legal team. these claims have no factual basis or solid evidence behind them. these claims are also being backed by the republican national committee. this week the gop tweeted a video of trump attorney sidney powell falsely saying that he won by a landslide. a statement out today says that powell is no longer working for the campaign, but it did not explain why. joining us now is hunter walker, a white house correspondent for yahoo news. hunter, why do you think there is this discrepancy between how federal republicans have reacted to all this and how state and local republicans have reacted? >> well, certainly on the federal side, i think what's driving them is the same thing that all these -- [ inaudible ] >> hey, hunter, i'm sorry. we're having a little trouble with your audio. we're going to try to clean your audio up. i am interested, though, in terms of donald trump's potential future in the republican party, what that might look like after joe biden is sworn in. here's something that you recently wrote for yahoo news. you wrote that whether or not trump actually returns in 2024 is almost irrelevant. simply dangling that possibility has the power to freeze republican politics in place. explain that a little bit. it sounds like they may have to deal with him in the future no matter what. so why turn him and potentially his political base into enemies? is that kind of the logic behind it? >> broadly, yes. i mean when we say they might have to deal with him no matter, i've talked to sources close to the president, and they say that he's definitely potentially thinking about running again in 2024. and he's also thinking about running a media outlet, and that would be a very, very powerful bulwark in addition to his obvious social media presence. and i think that's part of -- when we talk about the silence among congressional republicans, that includes a lot of the supposed 2024 hopefuls, right? i mean mike pompeo, who is obviously, you know, interested in running for president, is the one who said we're transitioning to a, quote, unquote, second trump term. and the biggest thing here when we see this silence from republicans in washington is the fact that the president has about 90% support among republicans. so they know that, you know, basically the party has followed a cult of personality model, and he is the base, and the base is him. i one democratic operative in georgia told me, you know, the republican party is trump now, and they are nothing without him. and so they know that their futu futures in georgia, their futures in staunchly red states depend on not angering him. >> so they've kind of made peace in a way with donald trump reflecting the mainstream of the party. i do wonder, though, if there are any more, you know, jeff flakes out there. i mean for many who supported president trump, there is a very loud vocal base that we cover a great deal who has said, i don't believe the results. donald trump is here to save america. there are also many republicans who felt very transactionally about donald trump, that they supported him to get more justices on the supreme court. now a third of the supreme court has been appointed by donald trump. that they supported him to change tax policy or to further certain cultural causes, and that's done. is anyone in the republican party thinking about life beyond donald trump if the pendulum swung back again in a different direction? >> well, we should point out we're not seeing, you know, at the federal level 100% total backing of the president. we have seen ben sasse, mitt romney, lisa murkowski be sort of senators who are often, you know, the purple swing votes in the senate break with the president on his totally baseless, false claims of victory and voter fraud. also as you were pointing out earlier, at the local level, in maricopa county, in georgia, we've seen local republican officials break with the president. the bottom line is, you know, with these just wild, ridiculous claims he's making and frankly a blatant attempt to undermine the american democracy, this is an individual character test for anyone who has a position of high profile or a role to play in, you know, the actual process of this election. and a lot of republicans are failing that test. i think the fact -- you know, i was in the white house the other day when pence came out there with a slew of officials who at that point are all standing there giving an air of legitimacy to, you know, a presidency that's refusing to acknowledge the democratic election and refusing to work with the transition on matters of literal life and death with the pandemic. and i asked all of them, why won't you answer questions? you're all part of this. and everyone who's standing with him in any capacity is part of this and is essentially failing that character test. but which are seeing some people stand up. >> hunter walker, white house correspondent for yahoo news. hunter, thanks very much. >> thanks for having me. coming up, a beautiful resistance. the writer of a powerful new column joins us next. we'll explore how she's highlighting the black experience in america beyond the headlines. ♪ may your holidays glow bright and all your dreams take flight. visit your local mercedes-benz dealer today for exceptional lease and financing offers at the mercedes-benz winter event. it's still warm. ♪ thanks, alice says hi. for some of us, our daily journey is a short one. save 50% when you pay per mile with allstate. pay less, when you drive less. you've never been in better hands. allstate. click or call for a quote today. to syour body needs routine. system, allstate. centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc. season, after season. ace your immune support, with centrum. ofbut never for bladder leaks.r that fits like this... new always discreet boutique black. i feel protected all day, in a fit so discreet, you'd never know they're for bladder leaks. always discreet boutique when why are we alwaysiful hair, shown the same thing? 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"and a beautiful resistance" looks at black families, black joy, and the black lives behind black lives matter. joining us now is the woman behind the series, "boston globe" culture columnist jenee osterheldt. jenee, welcome to the program. >> hi. thanks for having me. >> how did this series come about? >> so like so many of us, i -- [ inaudible ] >> hey, jenee, we're having some audio issues with skype. we're having issues paying our broadband bill tonight, but i do want to go to a clip of somebody from a woman you spoke to named mercy bell, who is starting a family legacy of martha's vineyard, one of the stories featured in your series. let's listen to her, and then i'll ask you about that on the other side. >> i do believe in magic, and i'm not talking about the kind that comes from like wizards and fairy tales. i'm talking about the incredible strength of shared memories passed on family to family that, regardless of what happens here, the gentrification, buying up of houses, that we as black people will continue to come. that black and brown bodies will always be on the inkwell regardless. like we will find a way to continue to keep the roots that are here firmly planted because there's just no other way. >> it's fascinating that your first piece in this series talks about the black history of martha's vineyard, which i think we would consider to be one of the whitest parts of the whole country. it appears to be about 128% white until you find that there is a history there. why are those kinds of stories important to be told? >> so davis has a quote, and it's i find in being black a thing of beauty, a joy, a strength, a secret cup of gladness. and i feel like in american history, the stories told about black people are often stories of suffering, stories of oppression, stories of supremacy. and those are all true things but that's not who we are. that's a struggle we fight. it's not a struggle that defines us. it's not how we should be defined. and too often we celebrate black lives as a hashtag and not as a lived experience. so it's important that people understand we have safe spaces. we have summers like everyone else. we have joy, we have land, we have water. joy too is a form of resistance, and just the same way feature sections in newspapers across the country have always written about everyday white lives, they need to do the same for the rest of us. >> could i ask you about that because i find that fascinating that we have shifted the way we talk about the black experience in this country in a number of different ways. for example, we mentioned earlier tonight that there was that fresh prince reunion. well, peacock is reviving fresh prince and telling it through a new lens because there were so many stories about the black experience that you couldn't really get into in the context of a laugh-out-loud sitcom that you can now tell in terms of like this fish out of water story, which is great, but also like we're funny people too. like there's more to black life than the difficulties of the black lives matter movement. how do we balance those stories? where does the balance lie? >> i think the balance lies in us having the opportunity and access. the gatekeepers have too often and for far too long been white. and i think the more accessibility to be expansive in how we tell our story will allow us the balance. i'm excited to see the fresh prince reboot. i'm excited to watch "insecure." i want to laugh just as much as we cry. life is hard, and that is true. i would never try to erase our struggles or our fight against supremacy, but it's important to find the laughter, to find the smiles, and to be able to celebrate all of our beauty. >> your second piece in this series deals with a form of art that i think is really extraordinary but often gets a very bad rap, and that's graffiti art. talk about that piece. >> so this piece was really important to me because i know a lot of graffiti artists, and to me, people look at that and they think distraction, destruction, and i think, what happened here that made people do language this way? you know, toni morrison says we do language. so what happened that made people do language this way? what are the walls trying to say to us? what are we not hearing? what are we not seeing? and it's, to me, a form of visual justice. you know, lewis at harvard has a class, vision in justice, and this is about us staking claim and having a voice and having representation in the community. it's about not being heard and claiming that -- taking that megaphone, that, yand making something happen. >> the series is called a beautiful resistance. jenee osterheldt, thanks very much for being with us. >> thank you. coming up next, we are months into this pandemic, and many of us have the same unanswered question. where is the lysol? we've got some answers. we'll share them when we come back. i'm still on the road to what's next. and i'm still going for my best. even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm on top of that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. what's next? getting out there. don't stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer than usual for any bleeding to stop. seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. ask your doctor about eliquis. and if your ability to afford your medication has changed, we want to help. your medication has changed, man 1 vo: proof of less joint pain woman 1 oc: this is my body of proof. and clearer skin. man 2 vo: proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... woman 2 vo: ...with humira. woman 3 vo: humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. it's proven to help relieve pain, stop further irreversible joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. humira is the number one prescribed biologic for psoriatic arthritis. avo: humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. man 3 vo: ask your rheumatologist about humira. woman 4 vo: go to humira.com to see proof in action. it's almost like something out of mad max, but who knew the most valuable commodity in our dystopian future would not be gasoline but lysol? i mean seriously, if someone offered you a can of lysol, you'd break your piggy bank. i know i would. months into the pandemic, we're used to seeing empty shelves in the cleaning aisle, finding antibacterial soap or wipes or sanitizing spray can sometimes feel like you hit the jackpot. and even before the spike in cases we're seeing now, lysol was basically worth its weight in gold. bloomberg news sent a reporter behind the scenes as cleaning companies attempt to keep up with the demand. joining us now is drew armstrong, the senior editor for health care at bloomberg news. drew, welcome to the program. >> hey, joshua. it's going to be with you. >> i understand you went to the lysol factory, and you've been writing about how the plant has been basically running around the clock, creating hundreds of lysol cans every minute. what was that like? take us inside what you saw. >> sure. so, you know, like you and everybody else, i got fascinated with cleaning products, you know, hand sanitizer, lysol spray, lysol wipes months ago. the company that makes lysol was good enough to invite me in and basically show me everything about how lysol gets made, developed, manufactured. and there is a plant in new jersey. actually one of the conditions of me going there was i not reveal the location. they were worried people will come there ato try to get lysol. that's where they're turning out 700 to 800 cans of lysol a minute. they're making it faster than they ever have before, but it's one of these things that as soon as it hits the store shelves anywhere they go -- and they've run tests to see what is the actual demand, and they just can't find the ceiling on it. you know, as soon as it's on a store shelf, it's gone. i found it once while out shopping, but, yeah, you're seeing the images right there. 700, 800 cans a minute. almost 1 million cans a day and gone just as fast as it's made. >> you said that you found it once while you were out shopping. what exactly was the address if you would go ahead and just let me -- >> you know, it's funny you mention that because one of the things that the company told me is that -- >> i'm not kidding. what's the address? i really actually -- >> you have to come up to west chester to chico's up here. but one of the thing the company does is they run these demand tests where they will send a handful of stores as much lysol as they can, ten times the normal amount, because they want to know how much lysol do people really want? and they said they've had situations where people camp out outside the stores ready to post on social media as soon as they see the stuff. they'll send, you know, pallets and pallets and pallets of the stuff, and it's gone within an hour. they just are completely unable to meet the wildly off the charts demand for this product as people are just trying to keep their stuff clean. >> one of the thing that's been hard is keeping up with the grien ingredients in the supply chain. palm oil goes into a ton of products including hand sanitizers and some of the inhumane conditions under which palm oil is made and harvested and sent around the world. what about the supply chain for lysol's core ingredients? are they able to get what they need to keep up with demand, or is it tough because they just can't make enough no matter how much of the ingredients they had? >> that's a fantastic question, and this was one of my favorite parts of the story. so the biggest component in lysol is ethanol. same thing that's in a lot of hand sanitizers, and they were running short of ethanol. they have a train siding that pulls up to the plant. they deliver these 30,000 gallon train cars full of ethanol. they go through three or four a day but they were still not able to get enough. but one of the things that was happening in the middle of the pandemic was everyone was driving less. so ethanol that was going into gasoline wasn't nearly as needed. now, that's much lower grade than you use for something like a hand sanitizer or lysol. but they sent their r&d people out to a gasoline additive ethanol plant in nebraska and did some r&d work with those guys and said, we will take all the ethanol you can make more or less and started shipping ethanol that used to be for gasoline out to their manufacturing facility in new jersey. they've done other stuff. they have put chemicals on 747s to fly them over from europe. they have figured out anything they could with one of their sister brands in asia. they were actually putting hand sanitizer in personal sexual lubricant bottles that they had relabeled at one point because they were running out of bottles. they have done creative stuff to get the chemicals and packaging materials and everything else in the right places to make as much sanitizing product as they possibly can. >> so what's the best way for us to find lysol? >> you know, i mean it does seem to be occasionally showing up. but right now i'm seeing, you know, reports from people -- i've spoken to a few people and co-workers who have been able to find it. but it still seems to be patience, patience, patience. i didn't even get any when i went and visited the factory. so i wish i had a secret answer, but unfortunately i don't. it's still hard to get for just about everybody out there. >> we should note also that lysol and disinfectants have become part of the culture conversation in ways that the company may or may not appreciate. we remember this particular moment of something that president trump said. >> and then i see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. and is there a way we can do something like by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. so it would be interesting to check that. so you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me. >> now, that was a wildly idiotic thing to say. it's the point that lysol had to put out a statement warning people, please do not put disinfectants inside your body. it is not for inside your body. how has the company been dealing just with the cultural impact of being lysol right now? >> yeah. you mentioned the thing with the president and disinfecting, and as much as, you know, it does seem funny, that stuff matters. if you look at the poison control numbers, there was actually a surge in disinfectant-related poisonings over the summer related to the pandemic. people see these products. they hear stuff like this floating around, and, you know, they make bad choices about what to use it for. for the record, for your viewers, don't use lysol in or on your body. but these things become cultural touchstones that are part of some of the public health aspects of the pandemic where people are now hand sanitizing and thinking about how cleanliness and germs in ways that they never, ever were before. throughout the history of the world when we've had pandemics, you know, cholera was actually the big kickoff for a lot of these products like clorox, like lysol. cholera epidemic 100 years ago gave birth to this culture of cleanliness that kind of launched these sanitizing agents and here we are again. >> drew armstrong, senior editor for health care at bloomberg news, thanks very much. before we break our piggy breaks to buy some lysol, thankfully we might not need it as badly as we think. scientists now say the original warnings about contaminated surfaces are not that big a concern. covid-19 primarily spreads through inhaled droplets, and there's not that much evidence that shows deep cleaning your house really slows the disease. up next, who is your reason for fighting covid-19, and what are you doing to keep them safe this thanksgiving? you shared some amazingly touching responses with us. we'll read a few before we go. what if your clothes could stay fresh for weeks? now they can! this towel has already been used and it still smells fresh. pour a cap of downy unstopables into your washing machine before each load and enjoy fresher smelling laundry for up to 12-weeks. let's get checked for those around us. let's get checked for a full range of conditions. introducing letsgetchecked a health testing you do at home. let's get round the clock support from a team of nurses. let's get fast, accurate results. know your health. know yourself. order now at letsgetchecked dot com to use your vision benefits before the year's up. this is us making sure you don't. use 'em before you lose 'em, backed by our 100-day guarantee!! visionworks. see the difference. ythey customize yours lcar insurance. so you only pay for what you need. wow. that will save me lots of money. this game's boring. only pay for what you need. liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. to syour body needs routine. system, centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc. season, after season. ace your immune support, with centrum. hold the phone in front of you. how's that? 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linda from port st. lucie, florida, writes, my husband and i live in florida and our two sons live in massachusetts. we're both over 65, have been married 45 years, and have been in quarantine since march. during the pandemic, i've gone through two breast cancer surgeries and 20 radiation sessions. our family means the world to us, and we want to be with them. one of our grandsons will turn 3 thanksgiving weekend. obviously we want to go see them and be there for the birthday and thanksgiving, but we love them too much to travel up and take the chance. we leatheither bring the virus them or they give it to us. it will be a very lonely and sad holiday season, however we're looking forward to a vaccine so we can once again be with family. we will never, ever take normal life for granted after all this. joanie writes, for over a decade i put my life in danger every day and inflicted endless worry upon my family. when i got sober, i decided on life instead of the convenience of complacency. i owed it to myself, my family, and the other recovering women i'd one day be blessed to help. over the past three-plus years, i've gotten back into the medicalfield, gotten married, bought a home, and helped other women find a better life. taken covid-19 after all i've been through would be the worst mistake i could make because god has blessed me with a second chance. people are relying on me to keep making safe and healthy choices and to keep being responsible for those around me. i'm a walking miracle, and i just won't risk the life my family and i have now because of complacency or defiance regarding covid. joan joanie, that phrase is going to stick with me. the convenience of complacency. that gives me a lot to think about. vin anto vin ni writes my wife grace and i have a daughter, mia, who lives and works in chicago. she was coming home to kalamazoo for thanksgiving. after watching rachel's and susan's story and your essay on saturday evening, we made a tearful family decision to not have mia travel home to michigan. it's the right thing to do for everyone. finally, if you missed yesterday's essay, i told the story of my health scare this week. my heart was fluttering, and my breath was short. nothing terrifying but definitely worrisome. in response, dr. joshua cooper from temple university hospital in philadelphia shared some tips in case this happens to you. it's called an arhythm mia, an abnormal electrical pattern that makes your heart beat slower, faster, or just weird. if this happens to you and you suddenly don't feel well, call for medical attention. do not put off what might be an emergency in the making. however, even a heart that's working normally can have an abnormal rhythm. and just because you feel your heart pounding, say because you've had an energy drink, that does not necessarily mean that your heart's electrical signals are acting up. arrythmia can be a tricky thing. an ekg is only ten seconds long, so it might not catch it. your doctor might need a different, longer measurement to diagnose you. and finally, arrythmias are very treatable. from medications to simple surgeries to a pacemaker, or maybe just reducing stimulants and stress. thank you, dr. cooper, for that. thanks to everybody at temple hospital in philadelphia. and thank you to everyone who wrote in so many amazing stories. you just blew us away. and remember you can email us anytime. t t theweek@msnbc.com. i'm joshua johnson. stay safe this thanksgiving and make it a wonderful week. good night. you're clearly someone... ...who takes care of yourself. so why wait to screen for colon cancer? 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this is al jazeera ah, i need barker. this is the al jazeera news, our life in london coming up. americans votes in crucial midterm elections that would determine who controls congress and could define the rest of jo biden's presidency. top a vote as mine's high inflation and democracy with hundreds of election deny is among the republican candidates. ah, celebrations is $89.00 migrants are allowed to disembark from one boat in italy, but another ship heads for france. after the 234 people who rescued or deny pulled and we continue all count down to cut off 2022. can guarantee fail. help whales make an impact on their 1st will come since 1958 ah. we begin to the united states where people are casting their ballots in the crucial midterm elections, which could see the democrats lose control of congress are pending. the rest of jo biden's presidency at stake are all 435 seats in the house of representatives. where the current democratic majority is just 8. $35.00 of the senate's a 100 seats are being contested. right now they're evenly divided. so a change of control and just one see, could put the republicans in charge. 36 states, or electing governors and 27, never electing their secretary of state. who in most places is the official in charge of elections a courting to the brookings institution. 345 candidates on the ballot back. donald trump's false claim that the 2020 presidential election was flawed, which means of course, people who rejected the last presidential election could end up in charge of running. it's next one, or we call to correspondent, so who we are going to go to very shortly. she every time c, capitol hill, kimberly how kits at the white house 1st a she have though, and as we're saying she have to the 3rd of the senate up for grabs the whole of the house of representatives. this could well be something of her decide her as to whether or not by didn't becomes a lame deck president. yeah, i think actually even the most optimistic of democratic party projection suggests that the party will lose the house. you need the house and the senate supposed legislation. so unless there's some enormous bipartisan agreement it's, it's going to be very difficult for the president to push through his legislative agenda. that doesn't mean there, but he doesn't have a great deal of power discretionary powers that we over foreign policy. and as long as the senate remains in play and that is the point now, it is still in play. the president still does have power over which additional appointments regulate 3 appointments are all very, very, very important. in fact, the democrats will say, look, we have the business up in the senate and play really because in the mid terms, within the economy like this and with such an unpopular president, we should be completely shocked to use for obama as term for when he got shall act actually in his, in his mid term elections about suggest the that the resonance of message about democracy being on the ballot. i think probably more so the issue of abortion and the whole point about the mid terms, the strategy of the mid terms is to shake your base out of any complacency, get them to the polls. it's all about turn out. and in addition with the abortion really get suburban white women, perhaps those who might have been tempted to vote republican to say, wait enough, is enough. we have to have our voices heard to as long as the senate remains and play. yeah, there is still some hope, it's all about the turn out now because she have a democracy, has to run it's cool stuff and in but took her through the possible configurations of both houses. well, joe biden settle on monday if the republicans were to take both for house the senate. it would be a horrible 2 years. but i would imagine if the republican simply take the house, it's not gonna be a terribly pleasant to yours for president biden. the republicans already said they're going to do what the democrats did to donald trump when the democrats took for house as far as that concerned, we just go off to him. about his investigation for investigation, and joe, joe biden said he feels about possible impeachment after joe biden, son hunter, biden. there all sorts of questions about his business dealings, how he's using influence with joe biden to, to, to make money. but also into the having a coven, 19 into anthony foul tree, the scientific advisor to both trump and biden b withdrawal stuff kinda stuff. so lots of investigations mean, of course, if the senator is gone as well, then you can imagine that the stereo with it, with investigative committees looking at at every aspect of, of, of biden, at his administration. i'm generally going up any legislative and activity as lots of spam, tim issues or concerns. i think the fear will be that the republicans will go off the regulation. one of the good spots of biden's term has been environmental regulation, labor regulation, protecting workplace rights. that might be in jeopardy, but also the main issue, i think, will be the republicans using their leverage. perhaps over must pass legislation like funding the government to say, all right, we'll help you pass this, but we got to cut social security. we go to the social safety net, the medic, medical safety net, and the realtor is about that not least because the democratic party wants to do the same. all right, for now she had many thanks over to the white house now where kimmy, how good is standing by and why didn't has the strength multiple times that this is a midterm, where democracy, the very heart of the all important american institution is at stake, is this a message though that is landed with voted energized voices to get out and vote given the sort of loftiness of the issue you would hope, but that has not been the case. in fact, what seems to be driving people to the polls, according to most surveys, is the economy and record high inflation. in fact, that is the number one issue that seems to be motivating voters and particularly older voters. so younger voters that tend to trend toward the democratic party in some cases are staying home and that is bad news for the democratic party. and just to give you kind of a sense of what it feels like here at the white house right now, it's a bit of a somber mood. the white house pool is a good night in for the evening. that means the president is not going to be coming out any more, as we understand that he'll be, will be watching, returns come in with the senior advisers. but we don't expect to hear from him. so it gives you a sense of kind of how things are feeling and the president himself acknowledged to just about 24 hours ago when he returned from campaigning. but if the house does go to the republicans, which is not his party, the president is a democrat, this is going to be very difficult for him to get anything done for the remainder of his term. so the president typically is kind of an eternal optimist for him to acknowledge that really is kind of settling in the reality that things are not looking good at the polls for the democratic party. and kimberly, given how tight the races are likely to be in multiple stage, does it raise the prospect of the results being contested? again, it certainly is looking that way and already you kind of see the table being sat by a lot of the politicians around the country who are already making the case and verbally that this is going to take some time to tally. given the fact that we are seeing a number of legal challenges already being launched, 100 and counting. and this is, has a lot to do with the male in balloting process that is relatively new to the united states since covered 19 of where people didn't feel comfortable voting and person. and this has been here to stay and this is really opened up for those to challenge the results not just legally, but also there are sort of verifiable. nist, the nature of it, that they are many election deniers now who backed into the 2 years ago didn't accept the results of the election, of may not do so again. and so this is also opened up the threat of political violence. and so this is what is most disconcerting to those that are watching this unfold at once again to circle back to your original question about the president democracy on the ballot. this is certainly something that is at stake, but again, it doesn't seem to be on the forefront in the minds of most americans casting their vote today. all right, kimberly, how can the white house she have a tendency on capital hill may, thanks to both of you. well, polls suggest the u. s. economy is the top concerned for most voters rentals reports from tucson in the swing state of arizona, when many americans are struggling to cope with rising inflation. in tucson, arizona inflation is made father of to justin little's grocery shopping. a lot more complicated. whenever we plan our meals, we usually go to unfortunate go to the meet for to see what's on sale, and then it's gonna have to go from there. so it always kinda depends on what is affordable terms, depends on what you read, your part where you feel like you have no choice, but to go to the grocery store and her slater inflation is running at an annual rate of 8.2 percent nationwide. and even worse here in arizona where in some cities the rate is 13 percent. it's not just about food, especially with gas prices. it's, it's crazy i used to for my tank with like 20 backs. now it's 40 senior citizen, lannie betz, who lives on a fixed income is tightening his belt drive. literally when it comes to food, we're doing our right, losing a little bit of weight. so that's a positive thing to look at. inflation is dominating the political landscape with republican candidates, hammering their democratic opponents, claiming they are to blame for the price of food fuel and the cost of renting a home portals consistently show that inflation and the state of the economy is the number one concern of voters all across the country, the high cost of living is likely to be the issue that determines the outcome of the mid term elections. analysts say inflation worries are hurting democrats in swing states like arizona and the inflation nationally is a huge issue for voters. and if you're a senior citizen living on a fixed income, watching your rent go up or watching your grocery bill go up watching your gas bill, go up that, that some of your definitely think about when you get your ballot, you fill it out. americans political future could hinge, at least in part on something as mundane as the price of peanut butter. rob reynolds, al jazeera, tucson, arizona, or i will. let's take a look now at 2 of the battleground states. the could determine who controls congress at the moment. we'll hear from gabriel. i was on there in pennsylvania, but 1st let's cross over to john henderson and atlanta, georgia. and john, why is georgia so crucial in this midterms? won't georgia could decide which party controls the u. s. senate? we know that because they did it last time around 2 years ago. this typically republican state, up to that time in recent history, elected to democratic senators, and that put the democrats over the top last time. and to give you an idea of just how intense this race is, it's within one percentage point according to most poles, and about a quarter of a $1000000000.00 has been spent in advertising on this race. you cannot escape it here in this state to the races between rafael warnock. he is the 1st black senator of the state of georgia. he's also a pastor who preachers at ebenezer baptist church. that is where the reverend martin luther king preached, and he's running against herschel walker. now walker is a former university of georgia football star, very popular in the state, and they are neck and neck. despite the fact that throughout this campaign at walker has been hit by one revelation after another, he is anti abortion. at to women have said that he had pressured them to have an abortion. he has said that african american men to be closer to their families. but it was revealed over the course of the campaign that he had one to. and then finally, 3 elected illegitimate children who he has not remained in contact with. so the advertisements have been heavy. there's been a lot of negativity in them. there has been one from the walker campaign targeting warnock. it brings up an old incident where his wife had accused him of running over her foot in the car. so it's really heavy and intense. and ga is, is a state where they will, they can elect democrats, but they tend to like them conservative. so walker's line on this has been that we're not, is voting in lockstep with joe biden. his argument is that he's too liberal. he has voted about 96 percent of the time with bite and, and warner argument is that herschel walker is a man. you can't believe that he's not fit for office and that he's not prepared. my colleague, mike had put together a story, previewing this race. take a look. the african americans are the fastest growing boating block in georgia. now nearly 40 percent of the states electorate. that's an increase of some 7 percent into decades. the other minority communities are growing as well. and the shifting demographics had much to do with the traditionally red state, turning blue. the people like pasta andre osborne, a working to build on 20 twenty's gains, having the right type of energy in an election. that's not a presidential election, is incredibly important. so we're trying to encourage people to vote every time, but voting regulations have changed significantly since 2020, stung by their losses. the republicans governing the state passed the senate bull 2 o 2. which among other restrictions requires voters to provide a picture id at the polling place. there is certainly of movement to limit or drastically reduce the voice of the people by minimizing the impact of their vote. but the new law also expands early voting, which may have a result the frame as didn't intend. it really depends on how voters decide to turn out this year. do they decide to vote absentee? in that case, the law would restrict them if they decide to come out and vote in person and do early voting, the law may actually help them and be on their side. the crucial senate race sees the incumbent democrat, raphael warnock up against the trump in doors to former american football star, herschel walker, whose campaign has been marked by allegations of domestic violence. and the claim that the anti abortion advocate actually paid for a partners abortion. i thank every, both the her forget is of law against minded by not like him in the there's more somebody to let see. the main thing is to defeat republicans and keep them out of power. ultimately, the result will be determined by the size of the turn off at the polls. the larger the boat, the greater the possibility of a democratic party when the reality is simple. if the democrats do not win in georgia, they will in all likelihood, lose control of the house, end of the senate. and that will be an answer to republican pres, my kana august era savannah. and john, given how tie things i, if neither of the candidates wins more than 50 percent of the votes of the georgia senate race could be heading toward a run off. what without me well this could indeed be the last race to be decided for that very reason. if you don't get 50 percent of the vote, there is a run off in this case that happens in december. so we would have to go through this all over again, and you could bet big money from both parties would continue to be flooding in here in georgia, and that would flood the airwaves. and i can tell you from the few georgians i have talked to about that. that is not something that they would welcome, but we may not hear the answer tonight. as a matter of fact, there is a fair chance that will happen because there is a 3rd party candidate who's getting a small percentage of the vote. but in all the polls i've seen so far, neither herschel walker nor raphael warnock gets 50 percent john 100 in atlanta. many thanks. well, another key battleground state, as we were saying earlier, is pennsylvania. gabriel elizondo is live in pittsburgh and gave we've had a lot of the big hit is that we trump obama and biden, all campaigning in pennsylvania. why is the election battle this so crucial? well, it's of course, a swing state and a both parties need this senate seat in order to get their path to victory to control the senate. but as john henry, my colleague said, it's the same in george as well. so what makes this state so much different? a host of things, but primarily it is a very complex state. it's considered one of the more politically complex states anywhere in america for many different reasons. it's just so equally divided between republicans and democrats. in some parts, the state you have areas that are completely deep read states and other areas like urban areas like pittsburgh, where i'm at now. and philadelphia, those are more urban areas with it go towards democrat. so because of this, the elections here are usually very, very close in 2020 presidential election. there are 6600000 ballots cast. and here in this state, joe biden beat donald trump by near just 80000. so gives you an idea how every single vote really counts here in pennsylvania. that's why both candidates, the republican celebrity a doctor and tv host, a method on the republican side. and john fetter min, on the democrat side, lieutenant governor are fighting so hard for every vote. here and gabriel, even before election day, there's been legal wrangling over mailing ballots and distrust over the entire democratic process. yeah, that's right. 01.1000000 pennsylvanians have already voted by mail. okay. and in order for those ballots to be valid, according to the rules here, the voter needs to write the dates on the on envelope, which is sort of a, it's part of the rules. well, yesterday election officials said that there were several 1000 don't have an exact number, but a number in the thousands of valid still did not have the date written on them by the voters. and so a local judge, a state judge said those ballots have to be thrown out well over night. john fedor, mon, the democrat, his campaign i found an injunction and as asking a federal judge to overturn that ruling, he saying that's not fair. all of these ballot should be counted, they are valid ballots. it's just a technicality without the date on the, on zillow. why is he fighting for these ballots in these votes so strongly? it's because out of the 1100000 male in ballots, about 70 to 75 percent are from democrat. so they're gonna probably overwhelmingly support federal men. that's why he's a file this injunction with the federal court to have those ballots counted. we're waiting to hear from a judge on how they rule on this. it could actually even be tomorrow. so it could be a very late night here in pennsylvania. we might not know a winter until wednesday, maybe even thursday or i gabriel many thanks. la gabriel. i was on day live in pittsburgh i coming up on this news al from london has thousands on so the dfcs cool to join the fight against m. 23 rebels, the military bombs, the groups positions, and russian installed authorities in the hudson region say they've completed the evacuation of residents ahead of an anticipated offensive by ukraine. ah, the rescue ship with 234 migrants on board is heading to france, hoping to be given safe port there. after being refused entry by italy's new far right government. but italy has allowed migrants from 3 other charity boats, disembark, including hundreds who were barred earlier because the government deemed them not vulnerable. tony burly reports from the sicilian porter cataneo a cry for help, which had gone unheard by a right wing italian government for 4 days. in sylium port of catania, hundreds of refugees and asylum seekers had been stranded. aboard vessels after being rescued in danger, sees and refused permission to enter the country because they were not deemed as being vulnerable. then a group went on hunger strike. in that they're not going to eat until they're leaving this vessel. they understood that they need to be sick to enter the european union. and they said, we're going to be sick if that's needed. the german registered the humanity, one and geo brents from norway have a total of $250.00 migrants on board. they've been in port for 4 days. during the middle of the night, a 3rd boat, the rise above with $93.00 migrants, was allowed to docking calabria further up the coast. surprised about 5 days at sea now. 3 rescue persons. and since 5 days had a big challenge, stormy, went outside people with now finally, they been allowed to disembark, but it's unclear if they'll be allowed to stay a 4th boat. the ocean viking carrying $234.00 people, mostly africans, and women, and children is heading to france after being refused permission to n italy. there were small signs earlier in the day the government of georgia maloney was beginning to soften. it stands on tuesday, immigration police, or medical teams were seen boarding, the gio brents for interviews and health jacks. the captains of the ships had refused a government order to leave port. they say they will only leave once all have been allowed to enter italy. italians are divided over the migrants issue. over the centuries, sicily has gone rich because of the sea. people here know what it can bring and the terror it can inflict terror that migrants know all too well. they don't load it with them. i think the government to think about us italians and send them my guns back home. european. so they shouldn't be kept on that boat. they should be allowed off. it's not right. the africans are off bridle boy. wow. george maloney was elected on a promise of migrant crackdown. she's been silent over the count issue, but in the katana headquarters of her brothers for italy, party, which one's house ma salinas fascists. in the 2nd world war, they believe their leader is doing the right thing. your pencil can the dallas f agenda will, italy is during what of the european nations or during like in france or spain or cyprus and walter. the defense of the border and the legal entry of migrants is not about political right or left. it's about national interest but there is strong support for those seeking a safer and better life. it seems that the italian government may be slowly back tracking on its hard line migrant stand. and there appears to be signs of divisions within the administration about just how to handle this situation. at a time when most italians are more focused on a cost of living crisis than people escaping poverty, tony berkeley, algeria, cataneo port sicily, a russian appointed official, a new cranes curse on regions says the mass evacuation of civilians has ended. but the ukrainian government has described the movers force deportation is, forces are continuing their advance to re take control of the region more of your form upwards. as you would know for fe, any people who left to right bank part of caution region for the left bank are in a safer condition. the evacuation is over, where people may now leave individually if they play via the hotline. but i repeat, they must do it individually as of today. with a said bake has morphin, creepy ry infantry ukraine. well, we've been hearing about the evacuation for a while. the russian president vladimir putin as endorse evacuation, but i did recreation, but there's been extra import us over the last few days just because both sides have accused each other. i've talked to that down further up river, both sides of accused each other of wanting to blow it up. and if it does blow, it will have devastating consequences. but there's also extra import us because russian forties had given residents around that until until the 10th of november to evacuate. and there is a feeding head to the 10th feeling that something will unfold over the next few days. even here where we've been, we've been hearing our overnight over the last few days has been reports of explosions. although because of media restrictions, we can't go and see what or if anything has been hit and but around her saw the is the feeling amongst the ukrainians, that something is going to happen. and for soc is very important to the russian is the only regional capital that they've managed to take them to the dock of the war . it's the only point the west side of the river, the need for the russian troops occupied kershawn is the gateway to the south is also important for fresh water supplies to an ex crimea. in fact, russia sit back in 2014 that ukrainian cut off water. so russia took chris on, they reinstated that water supply. in fact, it was one of the reasons president putin gave for the invasion of ukraine. so lots more to come. this news, our mexico's deadliest year on record for journalists, we travel to one of the worst affected states. could the u. k, and e u. be closing in on a deal to resolve a bit of post breaks that dispute on northern ireland. i'm where at the premier over new film about a group of football is a little hoping to be selected to play. people will come ah well the mediterranean storm has dispersed and the cold that brought the snow to central europe, moralist spirit as well. in fact, the driving force now is this big, low south of ice all between iceland and scotland driving around the mild weather windy at times admittedly, but largely mild. so 14 degrees above average for london. and that's got rain minutes through denmark, norway, and sudden sweden. there is some stove courses you might expect, but it's not exactly wide spread south that the rains bit more substantial as it runs into the alps. so for this part of france, there will be rain heavy rain then for the french, italian, and swiss alps more snow. that rain also spreads back into spam attempt is now nearly 20 mark than the 30 marks. that's certainly cool. dabble is so quite warm and mediterranean island 24 in power across 21 athens. both those temperatures are above average by a couple of degrees. but to get to thursday, the range spread a bit further across into the barracks. it's enormously. i'm particularly slovenia tension, vienna's come up as a result of this encroaching cloud and rain. so in fact, things are slightly warmer in the sunshine on thursday and a good part of europe. it's still rainy occasionally in southern nigeria, but not very heavily. ah. as climate change heats up, the planet, one scientist intends to take us back to the i fate, to save the permafrost below he's reintroducing animals to the grand slams above. starting with the living creatures that planning to resurrect an extinct species. could this approach save our worlds witness museum of hypothesis on al jazeera. ah, ah. ah lou. ah, welcome back. reminder of the top stories here lounge is 0. americans of voting and crucial midterm elections, which could see the democrats lose control of congress. appending the rest of jo biden's presidency at stake, all 435 seats in the house of representatives, and 35 seats in the senate. will poll suggests republicans will take the house, but the battle to control the senate looks tighter. coming down to close elections in pennsylvania, georgia, arizona, and nevada. and a rescue ship with 234 migrants on board is hoping to let people off in france after being refused entry by italy's new far right government. but italy has allowed migrants from 3 other charity boats to disembark. why we're, let's talk more now about the significance of the u. s. midterms. barbara perry is professor of ethics and institutions at the university of virginia miller center. she joins us now live from charlottesville, virginia, welcome to the news hour that are going into this election. joe biden has repeatedly said that, sir, this is people's chance to come out and defend democracy nearly 2 years since the storming of the, the capital. but how's that warning really resonated with voters? i think it has certainly was democrats who were very much frightened as they should have been by what happened on january 6th, 2021. and interestingly enough, those on the rights express their concerns about democracy, but they come out from a conservative position, whereas they believe that democrats or socialists. so ironically, it may drive turnout from both parties, but going in different directions. overloads been made of the huge number of election candidates from the republican party or election denies more than 300. most of course, a favorite to win. i mean, what does that say about the state of democracy in the united states? well it says a lot and it's all negative. i'm afraid to add it also both. i think for the future i should any number of those people when those positions and some of them are in positions to do vote counting and that sort of thing. i, if they don't believe in the current system of the elections and the american democratic republic, my fear is that they are taking us in the direction of authoritarianism. and even though there used to be, of course, voices from the fringe. but is it fair to say that election denying has gone mainstream? yes, it has now bind you about 30 to 35 percent of americans still support donald trump. and it is the case that many of those are election deniers. but it was the case that they tended to be friend, including knows the storm, the capital on january, the 6th of 2021 and they were french people. but now, given that they're on the ballot, the very ballot they say are unfair and reg, but they will use those elections to get into power. the big question of course, is how donald trump and dos candidates do ahead of his potential return to the white house in 2020 full. yes, we'll be looking very closely at that. now. not all prefer candidates, one in their primary elections, to go on the ballot, but a number did. and it won't matter if all of them were to lose. as we know, donald trump can twist any kind of headline to zone advantage. and so he would continue to do that, and i'm sure he will be announcing i his mom, and he will be running for the nomination for republican party, for 2024. what's happened sir? j. biden's. popularity is himself taken the hovering over the past 6 months, his personal rating has dropped since the summer. thus, despite getting the united states back on, it's for you to the title of the public. yes and in the aftermath of the the riot and the insurrection against his own election, i would say he should been given lots of credit for writing the ship of state with an operation in 2021. but i think was the start of the withdraw from afghanistan, which was huge, very chaotic that did not work in his favor. and particularly inflation ramp, inflation in this country, as many countries are experiencing around the world. i has really taken a hit and causes approval ratings. to take a nose dive, i went point out, however, that is about at the same level that rock obama was at this time. at the same time, brock obama lost almost 70 seats across the house, and the senate lost the house of representatives and lost his filibuster. proof majority in the senate and 2010 and came back strong and won against mitt romney in the 2012 election for reelection. barbara perry, great to have you. of an usa, barbara prairie professor of ethics in institutions of university of virginia, millis center, or divisions over abortion rights in the us are stronger than ever before. after the supreme court struck down federal protections for the procedure in june. it's now up to individual states to decide whether to allow the procedure and several republicans lead states have banded outright. voters in michigan are also getting a chance to have their say on the issue as hydro, castro reports from the state capitol of lansing. we want, oh abortions are at the moment, legal in michigan, but the women in this room including the president of the country's largest abortion provider, fear that soon could change how much. oh, they're trying to take us back. a 1930 wine michigan law had banned nearly all abortions, with no exceptions for rape or incest. now that law could return this o ray, just dangerous and cruel law. it basically means that um, health care, michigan becomes criminalized that women can be prosecuted for having abortion for having a miscarriage. if they have a stillbirth, that's where michigan's proposal 3 comes in. it puts the question of whether abortions should be protected in michigan directly to the voters. signs are everywhere. bo, yes. to support abortion. access no to oppose it. though sides have been campaigning hard. were out canvas seen and supportive proposal. 3, this father and daughter do oh, have been knocking on doors to convince voters that abortions should be protected after learning what the campaign was, she said should support it. there is a reason why michigan is at the center of the abortion debate raging across the country. voters here are about evenly divided politically, a close reflection of the entire nation. and that gives lawmakers of both parties from lansing to washington, a chance to learn what the average american voter thinks about abortion, and then to adjust their political strategies accordingly. republicans have long benefited from christian conservatives who support the parties. anti abortion platform. the priest at the church of the resurrection in lansing, michigan, told parishioners voting for abortion access would be a sin. should you vote for proposal 3? you need to repent and go to confession. abortion is murder when you're taking a human life. you're murdering that life. but polls show the pro abortion side, leading by a significant margin in michigan. the fact that we might not be able to control what happens with our own bodies that we don't have that choice is wrong. whether that passion translates to votes remains to be seen heidi joe castro, al jazeera lansing michigan. and our special coverage of the outcome of the mid terms begins at a $100.00 g m t on wednesday. we'll have correspondence across the us to break down all the results and explain what it means for america and the rest of the world. now wanda, is accusing the democratic republic of congo, a provocation after a congress fighter jet, entered will end and f base the d r c says it was a mistake congress. planes have been targeting m 20 p rebels in the east of the country, a d r. c, government accuses for wonder of backing the $23.00 fighters, which could golly, has denied the renewed conflicts as force hundreds of thousands of people from their homes in recent month. from the eastern city of goma, malcolm web reports disease did the sun garner and her husband chicago re took us to where they buried. then newborn son, just a few hours before we met them. they said they fled the village last week, when the n 23 rebel crew bombed it, they walked for 3 days, sleeping rough on the roadside to reach here, cassandra to get some child was very tired in my wound because of the days i spent on the road my pregnancy started feeling very bad, and yesterday i gave the to the child, passed away today. their son, just 10 hours old. he's one of the youngest to dine. the conflict between conga leaves, government forces, and m 23. widely understood to be a proxy of neighboring rwanda, although rwanda denies it. this is their new home. among many new arrivals at this camp for this place, people on the outskirts of the city of goma, florence b her he case showed us where people are sleeping. she was a farmer and the community health worker until she fled the fighting. earlier this year she told us $22.00 children of died here. and 8 women have had miscarriages. in the last 10 days. when i came be our born built up. oh, what were fleeing the bonds getting tired on the road and sleeping out doors? so you have babies still boiled some miscarriages are the direct consequence of the trauma from being bombed by the rebels. some are dying in their sleep just a few days after being born because of living in such bad conditions. there isn't enough food to eat. many people here is surviving on just one meal a day and the shelters aren't adequate. it's raining heavily, almost every day. here at the moment, some people were given a plastic sheets by the government, others told us they had to sell it just to be able to afford food for they've made shelters from leaves and sticks. instead, there isn't enough clean water to drink and there with tens of thousands of families here struggling in these conditions with hardly any help. congress armies as his new offensive will help. he lost ground to m $23.00 over the last year. now it's pushing back bombing rebel positions with fight a jess and attack helicopters. and 23 wrote in a statement that it's the asteroid that, of displacing people. every one we spoke to here said they ran in fear before that as soon as the rebels came close and 23, a widely known for forcing civilians to fight or work and for killing them if they don't, nobody here knows if or when it will be safe enough to go home. in the meantime, they desperately need help. malcolm web al jazeera, goma, democratic republic of congo. the un high commissioner for human rights is urge egypt to immediately release, jailed egyptian british political activists. allah abdel fatter. he's been on a 7 month hunger strike in prison and stopped drinking water 2 days ago when the cop 27 summit began in egypt. vol. could turk says the blog as life is in imminent danger, and he needs medical attention. he's been imprisoned on several occasions most recently since september 2019. meanwhile, the cop 27 talks have been dominated by calls for wealthy nations to help poor countries withstand climate change. at one of your pledge made at cop 15 to provide a $100000000000.00 a year to poor countries by 2020 still hasn't been met. natural disasters have taken thousands of lives this year in cost billions of dollars including unprecedented heat waves across 3 continents. droughts in africa and devastating floods in pakistan is prime minister shabbots sharif says that extreme flooding was caused directly by climate change, which his country is not responsible for his called on wealthy countries to pay for damages. it is extremely important that. busy if we have to fight and rebuild and repaired our infrastructure, which is which has to be resilient and adaptive. then of course, we can only do 2 additional funding not to dish to loaned and debt because this would be a financial debt drap. 2022 has been the deadly ecier on record for journalists in mexico, as according to the committee to protect journalists where says, attacks come from both organized crime and the authorities. at least 13 members of the press were killed this year. that makes the country 2nd only to ukraine for journalists, deaths, or then 150 mexican journalists and media workers have been killed in the last 3 decades. violence against the press has increased by 85 percent under the covent government, or present unrest. manuel lopez or the door according to the international human rights group. article 19 in the 1st of our 2 part series. john holman reports from the deadliest mexican state for journalists, veracruz. this is norma. she's a local crime, be reporter for digital outlet radio station, veracruz, number 5, and either it's one of the most violent states, mexico serving as a key location for criminal groups engaged to both drug and human trafficking. we traveling with her that she heads out to cover crime scene that's in the middle. ah, no, i'm not scared. very cruises also the deadliest mits can state for journalists. 31 have been killed here in the past decade. get us out of the meals as that one. has me not those ala yes. where they will not been. so now how law as elsewhere, midco, getting threats for simply doing the job is normal. since the government launched to so called war against cartels and criminal organizations in 2006 killings of reporters have gone up as both crime and corruption become more and more entrenched . at least 13 journalists have been killed, emits for this year. mon, the whole of 2021 in may, norma got this cool of the she reported on a police operation. i had to flee the town. local authorities could have protector. now she's back working, but in fear for her life. but he makes her, the threats come, not just from the countries ramp and gang and wherever there is organized crime. various collusion with local authorities, mostly on the municipal level, but also on the state level and especially outside the major metropolitan areas in mexico. journalists are often part of a relatively small community, a small pool of reporters, especially those who cover what they call the no title and mexico, which is crime and violence and traffic accidents who affect the interest to very powerful players in the country. a boise point. i think that he or they said the in that there is a clear line. dividing us is the international pressure dropping in here. no international journalists has been killed in more than a decade in mexico and the national and especially the local journalist, the covering this day in and day out there really the ones that are at risk. we've organized crime, threatened journalists, and controlling the flow of news. i asked norma how it felt wondering what she could and couldn't report from when i'm when they actually start as if you were on a glass bleach. lanfield stanley and you fall capacity or she probably cuz thought located us. not a good m b here. john holman, out is it a that a cruise and you can watch john holman's documentary silence. the killing of journalists in mexico announces era's fault lines program at 2230 g m t m wednesday and 930 g m t on thursday south. there is hope, the e u and u k. a closing in on a deal to resolve a bit, a dispute over post or exit trading rules for northern ireland and the rest of the u. k. irish british leaders are preparing to meet later this week, but it's not just customs arrangements at stake. that's where we challenge reports from belfast. the dispute has cast out on the very foundation of peace in northern ireland. if you want to make sense of northern ireland then and now speak to paul donnelly, where not doing the chill or water mostly done in the past. but there are still traumas like a face. we are still displaying conflict behaviors considerably after the events. the belfast tour guide takes visit is 325 years worth of bombings and shootings. and he knows the central pillar of northern islands piece, the good friday agreement. he worked on it as a mediator. meant that the various parties had been so conflicted agreed that they were not one to conduct the conflict and not mon or any more. so essentially it brought an ams to most of the violence signed in 1998. the good friday or belfast agreement, set up power sharing between nationalists and unionists and brought down barriers between northern ireland and the irish republic. but bricks it is, stress testing the agreement to potential destruction. questions about the durability of the good friday agreement. now coming from across the political spectrum, whether that be irish prime minister, michel martin, northern islands unionists, or those for whom the agreement over emphasizes divisions. and marginalize is the growing center ground. a mock funeral for the good friday agreement, dead already. se sum unionists because of the northern ireland protocol. part of the u. k is post breakfast trading arrangement with the e. u. the protocol established in effective customs border between northern ireland and the british mainland. the unionists, an unacceptable revision of northern islands place in the u. k. northern on constitutional possession was supposedly protected by the agreement. what we have seen through the northern protocol was that guarantee the promise was a shop. it wasn't worth the paper that was written. so what a disagreement is, we're seeing this interest alliance party has different concerns. it wants the agreement re balanced so unionist or nationalist parties on able to obstruct functioning government. i think that to have a good part to fit for purpose. in 2022, we need to need to be those that are currently being abused by dan. this is tony a 3rd way and whatnot, and it's not just the national northern ireland county has no functioning government unionists have collapsed power sharing over the northern non protocol. the u. k. government is obliged to cool new elections. but few see this is a fix. even after that, like we don't know how it'll be possible to get the executive functioning again, given that the d p is still likely to be t o participation. the good friday agreement with foundational for northern islands piece. and if you want to know what's at stake here, pulled, donnelly will take you through it every bullets and bomb re collins how to 0 belfast l. hockey. all the just have discovered 2000 year old artifacts. they say could rewrite italian history, 2 dozen inch and bronze statues have been found in an ancient, tough, confirmed spring and a hilltop town north of rome. there from the 1st and 2nd century b. c. when the roman empire with engaging emerging as the etruscan civilization ended, the period was marked by brutal sake split the statues of inscriptions in both etruscan and latin, showing that the trust and, and roman families pray together in peace. the discovery has been described as one of the most significant in the mediterranean. ah, is been confirmed that ecuador will open this year as well. cap against house cats after being allowed to keep their spot at the tournament. the cause of arbitration full sport rejected. chili's claim, the ecuador had fielded an ineligible player during the qualifiers. byron castillo played in 8 of his countries, qualify matches while cast says custio's ecuadorian passport was genuine. it also agreed with chillies claim that he was born in columbia, and that his passport was issued on the basis of false information. without a mind, ecuador have been fined over a $100000.00 and will start the qualifying campaign for the 2026 world cup with a 3 point deduction. as i 2022 will be the 1st well couple wales since 1958. for marielle, madrid and tottenham saw garth pale, we'll lead the side as pull reese reports garrath, bail a true well class player about to lead his country to the well couple. the 33 year old is coming to the end of a career that seen him when the champions league with rail madrid and reached the semifinals of europe. 2016 with wales. not about achievement for a country of 3000000 people. doris bail started out on the pitch, his hair, a schooling card. if that is help this small country punch well above its white on the sporting stage. which church school has also produced, a national rugby captain under toward a france winner. not even my father when my grandfather seen wells training well kept suzy gray opportunity in a vase with elizabeth kyla. kyla is very exciting with his. they've known yet not by leslie or the last time wales made the finals was 1958 in sweden, less cliff jones and his teammates went out in the quarter finals to brazil. i'm there. i'm a good little one early in the thanks to a welcome debut goal from a 17 year old legend in the making. nobody'd heard of perry. i got all remembered vividly, is picked the ball up in his own off. and he's grown posh, 3 welsh defenders. i respect the ball and jack cares his mother just to her. we sort like who is ish, who's this kid? nobody wrote of him. i mean that was the merger, st of possibly the greatest football the world. there's ever she was where she was probably the countries traditional national sports rugby union has often overshadowed football in wales. but the journey to cats are 2022 has seen the football team take the spotlight. rugby has always represented what it means to be . wow, certainly so of outside wells, i think it was football team of now taken on that mantle. the players are heroes in this country. everybody felt really emotional about 2016 and hearing that anthem the welsh anthem for the 1st time in a major tournament. but i think going to catch our and hearing it against the usa in that 1st game, that will be something else. ah, wales may not need to come to the spirit of 1958 when they kick off on november 21st. the spirit of 2022 seems to be enough poorest aldi's era caught it. if there were about a group of footballers open to represent that countries at the world cup is primary in doha, the world cup. dream features play some 6 countries that qualified for the competition, victoria gate, and be reports ah, every 4 years, some of the best football is in the world, get the chance to be selective for their national teams. to play at the people world cup this documentary film, the world caught dream features a group of young professional footballers who all hoping to represent their countries in katha ah spanish film director paola palacio has been filming with these young footballers for the past 4 years earlier. i caught up with paula. i asked her about her film and the theme she explored in it. of course we wanted to see some of them get the walk up, but it was not the main goal. we wanted to see the challenges, the difficulties. it was very important for us to be able to have access to their families, friends, to see also what their challenges are. because we, we've seen that all of them have a lot of support. otherwise it's nearly impossible to, to make it to make a successful career. in football, so it was the challenge is our main goal and the differences in countries from country to country. one of the most high profile football is to feature in this documentary film is antony. he plays full manchester united in the u. k. and he's also just been named in brazil's world cup squad. now this documentary film has been re version from a 6 part series, also called the world cup dream. and that will be shown on algebra or english from november, the full t o i. before we go, one person who bought a power bowl ticket in southern california has won a record breaking $2040000000.00. the largest lottery prize and world history. the jackpot is 400000000 more than the previous record after rolling over for more than 3 months. the lucky winner can choose either a one time lump sum in cash, or multi $1000000.00 payouts over 29 years. what would you choose? those are from any fog for this news. i'll be back for more. the day's news just a moment. ah ah ah ah ah. november on al jazeera data, welcome to footballing world is the world cup. kicks off in what promises to be a tournament like no other generation change, returns. showcasing young activists fighting injustice and challenging the status quo. leaders of g 20 nations gather with ukraine's president to lensky. invited will he meet vladimir putin for the 1st time since russia's invasion, the trials and tribulations of players from 6 countries. striving to realize their dreams of playing the world cup. americans vote in defining mid term elections. the results could see biden and the democrats lose that congress majority november on al jazeera. what's going on in vladimir put his mind right now. could this war go? nuclear is being on that front team, the golden ticket to electro victory. can americans agree on any immigration policy? is there a middle ground between narrow tower and open borders? the quizzical look at us politics, the bottom line ah .
a constant and alive for 70 years, the longest, soothing monarch and british history over her reign. she has come to define notions of service, charity, and consistency. the commitment to her role and to all of us has been without question and unwavering. she is also demonstrated courage, compassion, and humour, a strong memory. i will have her as her laughter. she was extraordinary. adrian brown joins is now live from wellington. adrian, tell us more about what the prime minister of new zealand has to say, and how people there are remembering the queen well, just spoke about 2 or 3 hours ago. she said that she was awoken at about $10.00 to $5.00 local time by the torchlight beam of one of the security details. and she said, i knew exactly what that light meant. as you heard in her comments there just a moment ago, she spoke with her on wavering the queen's on wavering sense of duty. she also said that the queen had been mother and grandmother to the nation. now of course, general doing is about the age of some of the queen's grandchildren and like many people here, she is never known at time when the queen has not been this country's head of state . here in new zealand support for them on the key is very strong indeed. support for the monarchy public, you know, the strongest, perhaps in the commonwealth. we've also been hearing from don mckinnon, a full menu zealand foreign minister who was also secretary general of the commonwealth and of course, knew the queen very well. he said that she had been forced for good in the commonwealth and that she was always interested in. he said in the progress of democracy in that family, representatives of the indigenous murray population of also been reacting. they said that in the past the relationship between the crown and the murray community had occasionally, you know, historically been quite tense, but that the murray community now look forward to working with the new king. and i don't meet the website of the governor general here like australia using and also has gotten a general there was a simple message. it says the hold the tide at its lowest ed. so yes, flags, applying, good, half mast books of condolence have now been opened across the country. and as you mentioned in your introduction, there will be a state funeral hand. but after the main one of course, in london, 10 days or so, 8 changes, you know, moving away from new zealand. your normally based in hong kong for us who don't know you were based in hong kong for a long time. and i want to ask you about the reaction and the relationship with hong kong and china, in particular, the complicated relationship with beijing. well, you're right it's, it's very complicated because, you know, at the moment the, the current head of hong kong john leach, is a former policeman who rose to the top of the rank of the hong kong police floor. so he was a man who had to pledge allegiance to queen elizabeth. now he pledges allegiance, of course, to china's communist party. there is no mention of queen elizabeth's passing in his facebook page. there is no sign of the moment in hong kong, though it's just what 7 30 in the morning there at the moment of flags being lowered to half mast and no comment so far from, from china's leaders. and i think it's going to be very interesting foley to see if president she aging ping is invited to attend the funeral of queen elizabeth. because if he isn't, and along with president vladimir putin, they will be perhaps the only 2 major world leaders, not in attendance. now it's known that the prince charles does not have an awful lot of love for china's communist party when president she jin king was in london on an official visit in 2015 or prince charles boycotted the official banquet. so i think it's fair to assume that you know, the fries that we've seen in, in relations between these 2 countries is not going to be used by the parsing of queen elizabeth. yeah. and as the saddle, the interesting to see and which world leaders attend at the funeral are in london . adrian, thank you very much for that. adrian brown. live there in wellington. now when queen elizabeth our 1st visit a kenya in 1952, she arrived as a princess and left only days later to ascend to the throne back then, kenny was still by the british empire. now is one of more than 50 members of the commonwealth of nations. but as catherine saw a report some canyon sphere. the commonwealth itself is coming to the end of an era . it's now an elaborate tree house in the wildlife, which are the dares forest in central kenya, back in 1952. when queen elizabeth 1st visited as a princess, this is how it looked. the only thing that has been constant is of what a hole that attracts wild animals every evening. and what brings in thousands of tourists every year. the story of tree tops lodge has been told and re tolls. princess elizabeth was here when her father died and she became queen, rating bogus, shows me exactly where the original tree house stood before it banged down. bobo was a porter and was selected to help carry the princess luggage to the room. it was a time of colonial oppression, often with some weight to be put in or teach canyons very well. they would beat us out of the 2 car and he had to be found as here. they had those of life stone, but would only allow us to own utmost to 15 good. only goods. then princess visited kenya. at a very tense period, the beginning of an uprising. and within a year young canyon freedom fighters declared war on her government. they killed dozens of british settlers, the sympathizers, which is the beginning of the end of colonialism, can against independence in 1963, which was one of many african counties to do so that decades. it appears as if many of policymakers in britain, underwashed. i'm not accepted, the fact that africans independent the o lobo without independence. we tend to think of africans us perpetual wards. children to be guided age remains at the head of braces, engagement of africa. the you case finding it difficult to compete with china in trait and building infrastructure support for africa. it is not that africans world war one, the west yonder west. but they also want a new respect and they are the right to decide to do it, which i knew deals are not good. get rid of the bridge route deals are not good, get rid of it. while it's during the queen's reign, that serious human rights abuses were committed in kenya. she's remembered fondly. she visited the country several times, a museum dedicated to her. it's fielded souvenirs from her visits. britain's connection with africa is evolving as is the post colonial stereotype that the relationship is all about. handouts, africa continues to receive its aid, but some analysts say the u. k is now more interested in promoting treat. kathy saw al jazeera central kenya, and people in nigeria have been paying their respects to queen elizabeth honoring her for a length of service to the commonwealth. it sounds so real to me on our 3rd is because the quin us live like she was never going to die on for the 3rd of our way generation over don't original kid to me. the quinn over a 160, they're not as a coin were process for the independent advances onto slots. there was no, no my life. i never known any other ruler last long. so for this not operate, well, it only leaves us every month and then is a great pity. and it's a strategy close to the all of her good britain of west africa proficiency, particularly nigeria or another platform. and i didn't go to an independence that. ready however, remember how for an air for a grid to mordor, the good monarch was been in the troll for the period of 70 years now to the us and present. joe biden has offered his condolences on behalf of all americans to the british royal family. he said in a statement, her majesty, queen elizabeth, was more than a monarch. she defined an era in a world of constant change. she was a studying presence and a source of comfort and pride for generations of britons. queen elizabeth the 2nd was a states woman of unmatched dignity and constancy as bringing hydro castro in washington dc for as the flank heidi at the white house has been lowered to half south and the present been 1st lady made an impromptu stop at the british embassy in washington, tell us about that's right it, and that is where we are right now fully. and you can see that this memorial that has sprung into life behind me in front of the british embassy, is growing by the minute with americans coming to lay flowers and share this moment of silence of grief and of inspiration. remembering the queen i and it was her life men to them. of course, this is the place where the u. s. president joe biden was a few hours ago signing the book of condolences within the embassy. they're greeted by the british ambassador and her husband, in writing, in that book, in the 1st entry of what will be many ones has opened to the public to morrow. writing that the american people mourn with those who are in great britain and across the commonwealth. now biden also spoke briefly about the queen's passing on stage just a few minutes ago at a political fundraiser, calling her and incredibly gracious woman. now the relationship between these 2 dev dates back nearly 4 decades and back in 1982 is when then senator biden met the queen of england and throughout the time they were in touch, his last in person meeting with her was a little over a year ago in june of last year, when he was welcome to windsor castle by her while he was in the u. k for the g 7 summit. and he describes this close relationship between the u. s. and great britain that was symbolized by the personal relationship that queen elizabeth as monarch also had with not only himself president biden, but also 13 u. s. presidents prior to him, that is how long a rain had endured. she herself visiting this country at least 6 occasions, visiting the white house that many times. and it's not just her memory being honored by present bite and other u. s. dignitaries, but also average americans who have been coming here all day with their children. remembering this moment, remembering the woman who they say was a symbol of dignity and of strength, average americans indeed, as we see behind your paying tribute to the queen, outside the british embassy in washington dc, hydro castro. thank you very much for the moment. well, let's talk more now about that relationship with united states. the queen's relationship with the us. barbara perry is joining us on al jazeera. she's a director of presidential studies at the university of virginia's millis center, and she's joining us from charlottesville. barbara, thank you so much for being with us and thank you for your patience. as heidi said there, the queen had a very strong and special relationship with the us. tell us more about the kind of relationship she had with the different presidents during her reign. it's amazing and astounding if you think of it this way, the 1st president she met was she had become queen in 1952. i was harry truman. and in the united states, we combine our head of state with head of government, the president bodies, both of those roles. so just imagine of harry truman were still the head of faith in this country. so to think that 1314 presidents have intervened and that her relationship with our president has symbolized this amazingly strong alliance between the united states and the, the former colonization a country. and to think that we thought a revolution against great britain and then have come to develop this alliance that saws to through 2 world wars and the cold war. and she embodied that. who do you think was her favorite present? i understand that she had a wonderful court, personal correspondence with dwight eisenhower. so the 2nd president, she knew, but i think ronald reagan was a favorite of hers because they bonded over their mutual love of horses and she rode horses with him at windsor castle. and then she asked if she could visit his ranch in california. and unfortunately, it was a rainy day when she arrived, so they couldn't ride horses. but i think she had a really special connection with him as well as to fighters against the communist world during the cold war and the u. s. assistance during the falklands war, and after that she made an honorary night, ronald reagan and then i'd say most recently the obama's that picture. i'll never forget. michelle obama violated protocol, but putting her arm around the weight of the queen and the queen, reciprocating and putting her arm around michelle obama. and right now we're looking at pictures of donald trump with the queen. what was that like? do you think he was released? favorite i would say probably so if you look at the look on the queen face speaking a violating protocol, it's one thing for there could be an in formality on both side. is in the case of michelle obama and the queen, and that they, they bond in their, in formality. but in the case of donald trump, it didn't seem to be in formality, but simply violating protocol by stepping in front of the queen, turning his back on her and then walking ahead of her. and i think the look on her face that at all right. she was of course, as you say, part of many significant moments of us history. there is a new king. now, charles, what, what is it going to be like? do you expect continuity in the so called special relationship? i think there will be a, he's of course, visit in the united states. he visited famously with diana. i and they came to the white house. and most famously of all, diana danced at the state dinner with john travolta. so they have been to the united states, he has many times, but i think that except for donald trump, who had this view, that it was time for that alliance to be over, the nato alliance to be over the north atlantic alliance. it had been formed by winston churchill and f d r. winston churchill, the 1st time minister i to serve with queen elizabeth. i think that charles will go back to the pre trump and now post trump era, if trunk should be reelected in this country than it perhaps is up for grabs. but i think that charles will continue this long friendship of the united states and the u. k. barber's so the to talk to you. thank you so much for joining. as barbara perry, director of presidential studies at the university of virginia's millicent, to joining us and from charlotteville. thank you so much for your time. i queen elizabeth the seconds long rain. so why sprayed and dramatic changes across the country? she rolled over and the world she lived in. but throughout she remained a con, a constant. as ne voc, every person arranged sole use of traumatic change, the social, cultural, and technological revolution that altered the very landscape of the nation. but the queen retained the same values, the same habits, an unchanging presence in the country, living through times of turmoil and conflict. she was just 25 when she came to the throne. exactly the same age as the 1st queen elizabeth was only 18 at the end of the 2nd world war, where she had served as an ambulance driver. only 8 years later, she was being crowned on almost every level kind of politically, culturally in terms of technological innovation, in terms of sort of society. i mean, every sort of massive change in the late 20th century. obviously, she's lived through so things ranging from obviously the full of the but in lieu a year end of apartheid in africa in england. the 1st female prime minister, the 1st black president in america. so those kind of landmarks also think about the development of the world wide web, which is obviously had each impact on society. the queen, very much alleged away in technology as far as world families, a consent in 1000, starbucks 9097. she actually was free behind launching the world families 1st website, british monarchy. and then in more recent years, we saw her get fully behind things like facebook page for the monarchy in 2010. and all these things, while they were being developed will aids, would always say they were sent right to the tops. it wasn't that they were being worked on my press factories. she ever saw all those developments and technology and she embraced plate. she was also all too aware of a new kind of national bread, home grown terrorism, with the new code liberal chosen for a long time. took the off in the 2nd world war with the problems in northern ireland. she was short term, a new wave of terrorism, islamic terrorism had hit london on default, who she stood in that central office over there about the palace and observed the 2 minute silence. i say defiance as if to say you can promise, but will not folder. but as britain shifted to become a multi cultural society, the one that was more accepting of divorce, the queen's family to seem to adapt when one of her grandson's prince harry married . megan marco, a bi racial american actress who had been married before. yes, maam, so after the wedding differences began to emerge and eventually the couple made allegations of racism against members of the raw household, harry and megan and the rest of the royal family started off with the best of intentions. we're going to work together. we're going to take the war found into the 21st century. but how do you change a medieval western european system overnight? it's very difficult to do that. the cream, so the family was saddened by the couples decision to step back from the royal family. move to the united states. when she came to the throne, the queen made a promise to the nation, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service and to the service arrive, great imperial family, to which we all belong. it was a pledge, many would say she managed to fulfil remaining a constant and an ever changing world. the balkan o $20.00 london, or world leaders are paying tribute to queen elizabeth india's prime minister to render. mowdy said he was pained by her death and that she provided inspired leadership to her nation and people, franchise and demanded michael has saluted the monarch as a friend of fran saying that shall be remembered as a kind hearted queen whose left a lasting impression on her country and on her century and italian prime minister mario draggy hale, the queen's education, and spirit of service rushes president vladimir putin has extended his condolences to britain's king chance. the 3rd put in, says queen elizabeth's name is inextricably linked with the most important events in the recent history of the united kingdom. he says, for many decades, she rightfully enjoyed the love and respect of her subjects as well as or 40 on the world stage. he wishes carriage and resilience to the new king in the face of his loss and asks for his condolences to be passed on to the wider family and the people of great britain, ukraine's present volunteers. lensky has also extended his condolences to the people of the united kingdom grange. again, i was deeply said to find out about the death of her majesty, queen elizabeth the 2nd. it is a heavy loss for the entirety of europe this and for the world im usual on behalf of the ukrainian people. i squeezed condolences to the royal family, great britain and commonwealth countries. our thoughts and prayers are with you, as well as the united nations secretary general antonia the terror says he is deeply sad and at the passing of the queen, i spokesman, stefan dejaris says the world will remember her for devotion and leadership as the united kingdom's longest lived and longest reigning head of state. queen elizabeth the 2nd was widely admired for her grace, dignity, and dedication around the world. she was a reassuring presence throughout decades of sweeping changes, including the d colonel, eyes ation of africa and asia and the evolution of the commonwealth. queen elizabeth the 2nd was a good friend of the united nations and visited our new york headquarters twice more than 50 years apart. she was deeply committed to many charitable and environmental causes and spoke movingly to delegates at cobb $26.00 in glasgow. the secretary general pays tribute to queen elizabeth the 2nd for her unwavering, lifelong dedication to serving her people. the world will long remember her devotion and leadership. i diplomatic as a jane space has more reaction from the united nations. we've just watched a moment of silence in the un security council at the start of their proceedings. the un general assembly also holding a moment of silence, the sec, james general issuing statement. he met the queen on the number of occasions when he was the high commissioner for refugees as the secretary general and his previous post as one of the u. k. allies is the prime minister of portugal. he says the united kingdom's longest lived and longest reigning head of state christmas with the 2nd was widely admired for christ grace, dignity, and dedication around the world. she was a reassuring presence throughout decades of sweeping change, including the decal, notation of africa, asia, and the evolution of the commonwealth. because the commonwealth is an important factor in this as all the countries around the world where the queen was also the head of state. it's not just the u. k. she is queen, or was queen of 14 other countries around the world. they have been paying tribute as have the close neighbors of the united kingdom, france, for example, president macros saying that queen elizabeth the 2nd embodied british nations, continuity, and unity for the last 70 years. i remember her as a friend of france, a kind hearted queen left a lasting impression on her country. and on her century, i mentioned commonwealth countries. one of the biggest, of course, is india. the biggest country in the commonwealth. the indian prime minister and the random modi match the queen of this is the 2nd, remembered as a stalwart of her times. the dutch king william alexander. we remember queena. this is the 2nd with the respect and great affection steadfast and why she dedication a long life to serving the british people. now that queen elizabeth the 2nd has died. her son charles has automatically become king. he is both the oldest and longest serving air parent in british history. let's take a look at what happens next. the day after the queen stair fee, accession council will meet at saint james's palace to proclaim king charleston new sovereign. a proclamation ceremony will take place and charles will swear loyalty to parliament and the church of england. his ceremonial coronation can take place at any time within a year of his accession. in 5 days a procession will be held, carrying the queen's coffin from buckingham palace, westminster hall, where the houses of parliament within the house of parliament a service will be held. the next day, the queen will lie in state for 3 days. westminster hall will be open for 23 hours a day to allow people to fall past and pay their respects. the funeral will be held in 10 days. the queen's coffin will be transferred to near by westminster abbey, where the funeral will be held. there will be a military procession in london and windsor. huge crowds are expected, as you can imagine, as well as a massive world wide television audience. the coffin will then travel to windsor castle. a private service will be held for family members and v i p. guess queen elizabeth will be buried in the windsor castle memorial chapel with her father, king george to 6. the queen mother and her sister princess margaret prince phyllis body will also be moved to the chapel. now prince charles will now be known as king charles. the 3rd, a new king has been groomed for the role for 70 years and is expected to address a nation on friday. oh, brennan takes a look at his life. he's been add to the throne since 1952, a long time to wait for his very particular destiny. those who believe in him say, he's put the time to good use it. charles has actually been preparing. you know, he hasn't spent his time writing pele ponies and, and cutting the ribbon here and there he has actually been around the world. many times he's met world leaders many times over. he's a great, a student of history and of politics. he knows what it's all about and, and i think he, i think you'll be very good. but his is a complicated story. an unhappy childhood at schools he hated, was never comfortable with a minute scrutiny of an obsessive press verb in moments of petulance. because he is not universally popular in 1981, he married princess diana, who had 2 sons, what it ended in divorce. johnson's relationship with camilla parker bowles came in for her scrutiny in 1997 princess down and died in a car crash in paris. and the british monarchy was thrown into crisis. but charles's obvious devotion to his breathing sounds marked the start of a slow rehabilitation. in 2009, he married camilla partnership, which is now more widely accepted. charles has always had his interest, but he's never been shy about expressing his views on the environment, on architecture, on the life of young people, for his family assigned, he cares. critics danger ahead. he's going to be of a different kind of moment and he's going to be a political moment. and that breaks the 300 year deal that we've had with the monkey. and if they break that, they'll them that's going to be the, the unique opportunity to get a valid institution. you have a tough act to follow his mother's restrain style of monarchy was popular. charles's rule will be very different. his challenge will be to do things. his own way without damaging the popular consensus on which the whole institution of british monarchy depends, pull brennan, al jazeera london and the coverage of the death of queen elizabeth. the 2nd continues in just a few minutes. we'll leave you now with some images of her 70 year reign. lou ah, ah, i didn't have my whole life. whether it's been all short, shall be debated. the old service. ah ah ah oh, what i said you now the queen and as a grandmother, i say from my home, i want to pay tribute to diana myself. she was an exceptional and gifted human being. ah, ah, data acquainted me, we have seen the worst, but also the best of our continent. we have witnessed how quickly things can change for the better. but we know that we must work hard to maintain the benefits of the page world. ah .
and influence will explore the many ways in which first ladies? have shaped history as the closest advisor. to the president as advocates for both change and continuity. and as well as how they influenced america society. politics culture and diplomacy now i have a very great pleasure. of introducing what many people consider? the brightest jewels in the crown of a first lady historians of america, so starting with dr. barbara perry. and while dr. perry is walking up here. it should be noted that she just came out today with an article. in the publication the hill on first ladies in war and as as barbara said she she was inspired by the association. and she is the gerald bayless professor and director of presidential studies the university of virginia's miller center. and currently serves on the board which we are very honored the board of directors of the white house historical association. joining her on stage our panelist. dr. diana carlin professor emerit of communications and many have called her the queen of communications at saint louis university and then we have dr. catherine al gore who made a very fabulous statement earlier today in the session the president of the massachusetts historical society. and dr. stacy cordary, which i understand is a british way to pronounce it and she is dennis and didn't denison von johnson endowed chair of theodore roosevelt honors leadership studies at dickinson state university. this is an incredible panel and as stuart has always advised us. we have a responsibility here. to inspire to encourage and to teach and i think with this panel you will get an abundance of material. thank you so much. well, welcome everyone to this panel on first ladies. thank you teresa for that very nice introduction. thank you to stuart and to anita for this amazing summit here in dallas that we've all been waiting. so to participate in and attend and to be in person you and the team at the white house historical association have done amazing work as you always do and many thanks to my colleagues here all of who's work has inspired mine over the years. so i'm very grateful to them. so as teresa said we're going to be looking at first ladies today and thinking about their influence on their president husbands. we're going to be thinking about when they promote change and sometimes we talked about when they have not been in favor of change which we can decide might be a good or a bad thing. let me start i'd like the last panel when we said let's do a flash poll. how many of you either work in the field the first ladies or where you work has some connection with first ladies or you just are a first lady aficionado. let's see a show of hands great. well, this is super we welcome you all and and for those of you who don't we hope to spread the word about first ladies and flare particularly as well as the white house historical association all of its good work in this field. so we wanted to start with a pretty basic question and that is how did the position of first ladies come to be? that's not in the constitution as the presidential position is an offices and it's an unelected position as we know. so how did it start and i'm going to turn to my first two colleagues to my left here to diana who is writing a book about all first ladies a textbook and you might tell us a little bit about that today and we want to start with the very first first ladies, and i also want to turn as well to catherine al gore because she's a specialist on the founding first ladies as well in particularly dolly madison, so let me turn to diana first. well, i don't think you can really study the presidency without studying the first ladies now, i'm biased but i believe that and it really started because this has been a partnership from the beginning. when martha washington arrived in new york a couple months after the president had arrived she was greeted with by the president in a barge. he then in new jersey wrote her over to the shore in new york. she was greeted with a gun salute and people were yelling long live lady washington and when she arrived she found out she already had a schedule. they they realize that because our president is both head of government and head of state that there would be events that needed to be planned with dignitaries that he needed to have these members of congress there and that they needed to host them and so nobody was better than martha at that because she'd been doing it for years. so she had a schedule she had restrictions and so it was a two-person career from the very beginning and she had abigail at her side and let catherine talk a little bit more about that. but martha definitely understood the concept of soft power. and that has been something that has been a trend for first ladies to use all the way through since the beginning. so the beginning was that martha really was a partner as she had been with the president all through their marriage and through his years during the revolutionary war where she would go to the camps the winter camps every year and would assist him and try to keep morell up and organize sewing circles and that type of thing, but it was a partnership it still is and so the two go together. she was not called first lady that didn't really happen until later in the 19th century. she was called lady washington, which was the term that was given to her by some of the revolutionary war soldiers. they even had a lady washington's brigade and that was sort of the vestige of the british past that she was also an example of what a southern lady would be. so that was the beginning. i just think it's really striking. so in other venues, i've actually said the dolly madison was the first first lady and i'm prepared found that but the truth is you're right right from the beginning martha washington is getting the message. but what's also true again? there's an intentionality from her so she begins dressing a certain way and she along with george washington and alexander hamilton. maybe john jay. they start communicating about the kinds of ceremonies. that would be proper for a new republic. because of course at that time they got a real tight kind of like lane to stay in. the american colonists had rebelled against the monarchy they were going to create the world anew the world turned upside down antimonarchical anti-king anti-royalties all going to be new. except when it came to ruling they realized that the only vocabulary of power they had was monarchical and aristotle and so how are they going to cut that and so we have these moments in the historical record where george washington is wondering exactly how many pairs of matched horses is enough to convey his authority pulling his carriage the and how much would be like too much? i think the answer was three pair but the same thing with martha, how would she dress that would convey a sense to the outsiders who are not sure this america thing was going to work and the new americans who are not sure this american thing was going to work that they were being ruled properly and well and they came up with ceremonies that tried to combine a kind of almost democratic energy. i think with you know, some some kind of vestige of royalty and that's why i think lady washington and dolly madison is going to be lady, but she's else would be queen dolly. yes. yes. so thoughts about we can't leave the founding. we've certainly need to get to more of dolly madison. but abigail adams, we always cite her letter to her husband about the constitutional convention about don't forget the ladies when they were putting together the constitution but of course in a way they did but any thoughts about abigail and and john adams and and moving into the white house. well, yes, and there are the first couple to move into the white house. nobody stayed terribly long. they weren't impressed. i think abigail in some ways embodies another part of the partnership that diana is talking about she really wasn't interested in what they would call presiding. so she adopted martha's innovations and ceremonies rather dutifully, but the role that abigail played was really that of advisor. she really was her husband's closest. sir, and in the spirit of republican virtue, that's small our republican virtue john adams made the terrible decision not to change his cabinet. so he ended up the cabinet full of let's just called them traders all working behind his back so he would have always relied on abigail but in that particular circumstance, she really was his very closest advisor and that's fascinating that you're mentioning that catherine because really coming up to modern first ladies and contemporary first ladies in terms of personnel issues. we know for example that nancy reagan so important on issues of personnel never afraid to tell her husband that person should go that person's not good for you. so it clearly starts at the very beginning in that kind of advisory capacity. so before we come back to dolly, let me turn to my colleague stacy and we did a panel some months ago in the midst of the pandemic when we were always online and doing these great panels for the white house historical associ. and for flair and stacy came up with a set of i guess you would call them roadmaps or criteria. just how do we know if a first lady is being influential? how do we know that at the time if we do know it what are some of the sign posts that we might see and then afterwards how do we know what what are some of the signals that a first is being influential? well, these are many of these go back to the very earliest first ladies as you two have discussed. and some of it is common sensical did has she achieved what she said she would achieve in some cases and on the other end of the scale as we have the sienna first ladies poll. so just like we take a sounding of what americans think about how well they're presidents succeeding. how weird is the first lady stand in that as well? we look at how her relationship with her husband seems to succeed or fail how any cause she might espouse supports her husband's programs. there are a number of ways that we i think try to decide what whether first lady successful or not. it gets tricky when you try to really put a number on it because so many of these causes are causes that are continued from first lady who proceeded them and and sometimes the the country changes so much that that causes get abandoned because something else comes in their place. well, it seems to me that one of the things that we mentioned about martha washington. and again, we'll lead us into dolly is the concept of soft power and i am a pseudo historian. i'm really trained as a political scientist. so we like to think in terms of power and how power is used and defining power and typically political scientists and others. will define soft power as diplomatic power diplomacy cultural exchanges, and we know that first ladies certainly have excelled at that. so let's think in those terms in lynn. let's turn to dolly in that you called it catherine when we were first talking this unofficial role because again, this is a position that that is given to this woman. who's the spouse of the president simply because she's the spouse of the president. yeah, and i mean i at some point somebody's going to ask the very rude question. why should we care about first lady and one of the things is that by studying first ladies the same way studying women their words their work their lives. we learn things we would not have known about and it cannot just be a record of contributions but constitutions and that it can change the narrative and maybe one of the things that's going to do for you political scientists. is to change that word soft power which sounds soft and not powerful because it may be this thing. we're calling soft power might be the power studying first. ladies brings out the study of the every day for instance the power of the everyday the power of material in different ways. so to address your question quite directly and using the roadmap you gave us she's good on this one james madison's major issue that he had to solve was the question of unity. this was alluded to i think earlier in the day, but this was the time when the united states of america was referred to in the plural. the united states are right because nobody was sure this republican experiment was going to hold nobody the outsiders from europe looking with john just die and the people the new americans themselves. and james madison believed in unity, and he believed and he worried because he didn't think that enough unified the cold-blooded new englanders and the hot blooded virginians and he saw this group of people who were so very different and he said, you know, we don't have what he called veneration but history like we don't even have history. we don't have blood. we barely have a language and sometimes it will shake yet that we all understood each other, but we had to have unity so in theory, he understood unity. he didn't have the appetite, but if you think of it in that way and then you look at all the dolly madison did in helping to found and cement washington dc is the capital and finally save it when you look at the parties where she brought people together in the room and made them behave. so they got to know each other's human beings. her role is the charismatic figure using her dress and her parties. all of that can be seen as fulfilling this role of unity and you might say unity which is an emotional or a psychological state is quote soft power but in the end, it's what got the united states of america into the singular through the war and off really often to democracy. and if you haven't read catherine's book on the madison's marriage, it's a it's a perfect union. correct the title. well, it's a perfect union because i do think james and dolly were perfectly matched different in a political but also proof union because as historians we always think what is the concatenation of person and circumstance and if the american revolution had never happened, i guess dolly would have just been a virginia gentry wife who through great parties by the way, but she rose to those circumstances and just to get back to you use the word unofficial and again, this is i think shows us something important when i studied earlier republic and and i did read a little blue signs. i figured out that for politics to happen. you need two spheres and one is official and one is unofficial and the officials fair you all know. it's the speeches and the legislator legislation and the peace treaties and all of that. it's the product of politics, but then there's got to be a process. there's got to be a place. where people can get together and they can propose things. they might not propose in the official spotlight the glare of the spotlight they have to be able to negotiate. they also have to get to know each other as human beings. and that is the unofficial sphere and because that takes place in people's homes, and it's social events women are disproportionately represented in that sphere, but you need both of those. and if somebody asked me, you know sometimes what's wrong with washington, which i don't like to come out on contemporary things. it's the lack of the unofficial sphere. there's no place where men and women can get together and understand that though you and i might have a very different idea of the public good. we do share a commitment to the public good and so again by studying first ladies, that's where you see the power of that and and and note the absence of it when when it's gone. right? well, i think the importance of dolly also is that she not only did this for her husband, but dolly then tutored several other first lady who came after her, you know after james madison died. she moved back to washington and she helped court a lot, but i think about sarah pope and you know james pope probably the most successful one-term president. we've had ran on four parts of a platform and accomplished all of them. he knew his health wasn't in great shape, so he didn't run for a second term, but sarah spent a lot of time learning from dolly. well, she really set the tone for i mean decades. yeah, eleanor roosevelt being the exception that proved the rule but mrs. kennedy, i love that. she didn't like the idea of redecorating the white house a lot of people say dolly redecorated the white house, but what she did was restructure it in a way that mrs. kennedy would have proved by this is amazing that before dolly's white house, which is called the executive mansion and it would only be during her tenure where it would get that familiar loving nickname the white house there was no place in the in the capital city where all the men of government could get together. let alone their families let alone visiting diplomats. let alone visiting americans let alone anybody it was so what dolly did was she took that executive mansion and she turned it in to a center for entertaining where everybody in town would show up and they did and she threw weekly parties and they were as regular and as grueling as they sound but they became an independent and indispensable part of the washington political machine. and it's in those parties. i can tend that these people learn to work together in a bipartisan ways going towards something they didn't even know is going to happen, which is that this one party republic was going to turn into a two-party democracy. you know, we're certainly still in in the earliest days of this office. but stacey focuses on the early 20th century first ladies, and so let's turn to her and thoughts about how the role had changed was it has it been changing. did it change did the civil war for example change it as we get closer than into the gilded age and then the 20th century before we talk about change. i think it's worth pointing out that what dr. algar has been describing is the consistent through the through the centuries. edith roosevelt for example provided a space where theodore roosevelt could meet together with booker t, washington that was not something it could have happened. just anywhere in washington dc, you know so that space that first ladies and first families in general have provided for gathering americans across the political divide as has been a crucial part of it. i think that's why in historical historians solidarity with dr. algo there unofficially the unofficial sphere is such an important term rather than i know political science and soft power, but that unofficial sphere is integral to the what the first lady has always done even down to today. so changes. well, there's a there are many changes and we can talk more about these but it has to do with the growth of a gender expectations the growth of women's activity in the world as we move through the century the civil war. it makes changes women's war work and then as we get towards the gilded age and moving into the progressive era that's sort of work that women do in the world. to move out of their domestic sphere which was the socially dictated acceptable place for women to be education and yeah, yep carry on there's met there's a million changes education is just one so certainly by the time you reach the first decade of 20th century and edith roosevelt helen taft. you have many solitaries, but many many differences, too. so well, i think just to defend my discipline. i think the reason why male political scientists focus on soft powers that they also focus on hard power and they want to make that distinction. of course, they view hard powers the military power and the economic sanctions all of which we're seeing now, but i think in this month of women's history, you know, we want to think certainly much more broadly beyond those two categories and when you mentioned women's history month, it's great that we're doing this now because i really think that if you look at the ark of american women's history, you have to look at first ladies. once again, we those of us who study first ladies say that they mirror society and women's roles and so went by studying those first ladies you get this little microcosm of what was happening. we talked about this division of spheres. but they also produce change and so that arc of history were the changes and so you begin to see the first ladies for instance who have an education who have a college education lucy hayes the first one you see where the first ladies were on suffrage. and interestingly you did not have them favoring suffrage at least not explicitly because politically it would not have been wise for some of them to have done that because the suffragists were basically viewed as radical extremely radical and then when you look at temperance was another issue that was also tied in with the suffrage movement later and all of these women were held up to a certain standard as to whether they were serving wine or hard liquor or nothing in the way of alcoholic drinks in the white house and that all played in with the movement. so it i really don't think you can separate first lady's history from american women's history. there's a paradox who that you're reminding me of which i think is also part of white women's history, which is this paradox if you had called dolly madison a feminist she would have been horrified first. you didn't confuse because nobody use that word, but she wouldn't horrified and and you would point out to her you'd say well mrs. madison, you know, you go get legislation passed for your you know constituency in virginia those revolutionary war pensions, and don't you get jobs for the sons of your friends and political supporters. that's called patronage mrs. madison, and she would say i am supporting my husband. so i'm supporting my husband and his goals and i'm not doing anything and that kind of denial of political intent or i guess political intent or ambition is so very typical, especially a middling and elite white women and you see it these women using they're very conservative positions to actually foster what we call radical change right they had access to power and if you look at the anti-suffrage movement, it was often very elite women whose husbands were powerful positions who have posted because they had a pathway to power and so some of these women did not thinking about all the other women who didn't you know, you mentioned the i'm actually writing it. nita mcbride and nancy keegan smith who's some of you know, who was at the national archives for many years. and the second chapter of our book we the first chapter we look at this whole notion of the evolution of the position including when the title came into play, but our second chapter is on first ladies and civil rights. and we put that at the front of the book because we wanted to once again show this arc of history through the women who were the first lady and so you start with martha washington who brought in slave servants to the homes in both, new york and philadelphia and in philadelphia, they were doing it pretty much they had to skirt the law if they had kept their enslaved servants there for more than six months. they were free. so they would send them back to mount vernon. and so there was this back and forth in order to evade this law. we had 10 families in the white house historical association because michelle obama brought that to their attention looked at slavery in the white house. so 10 different families had brought in slave servants and part of the reason some of them did it was that congress was so tight with the money for running the household and they had to use a lot of their own money. it was just they would bring their own enslaved servants with them to say, you know on the funds so we look in this chapter starting with martha washington and the contributions those early southern first ladies made to systemic racism. and then we get into. you know mary lincoln who has an african freed woman who is her dressmaker and she is giving money to the freed slaves who have come to the dc area and are living hand to mouth and she's taking her own money and supporting them then you get up to eleanor roosevelt. you know who did amazing things and was actually on a hit list by the ku klux klan they had a bounty on her head for what she was doing to promote civil rights and to bring the issue of lynching out lady bird johnson's incredible whistle stop tour after the civil rights act in 64. so we really and then of course we get historic michelle obama, and so we trace that history and look at where these women sort of fit in from these elite southern women. up to michelle obama and i think it's a good way for people to see this relationship between first ladies in history and the impact. and social history stacy, i think did you have your oh, i was just going to just on the topic of suffrage. there were small cadre of elite women in america, of course who did support suffrage but among elite women most of whom we can count the first ladies among. alice roosevelt longworth was a first daughter. once said i have more power around my dining room table then i have with one vote. yeah, that's a great kind of sum up that attitude. yeah. she also said if you can't say something nice come sit by me right didn't she have an embroidered pillow that said that on her couch, i love that. oh, can we circle back to mrs. lincoln? we don't want to quite park on the 20th 21st century, but some of you here know my personal story of how i became interested in the presidency in the white house's my dear mother took me to see john f kennedy campaigning and our hometown of louisville, kentucky in october of 1960. just one month before he was elected and i always start with that story because my mother was not a political scientist or historian. she was out in the suburbs of louisville raising baby boomer children, and but was very well read and and a wonderful grammarian and a champion speller and and but she just was drawn to him we're catholic he was the same generation. he was a world war two veteran is it was my father but the next memory i have a i think i was about six was being taken to hodgenville, kentucky to see lincoln's birthplace. so one one moment taken to see an almost president one from some time before and then a couple years later my dad took me out to the airport in louisville to see ex-president eisenhower come through and he was campaigning in the 1962 midterm. so came from a very bipartisan household, but i always say that when i went as age six to see the presidential side of the birthplace of abraham lincoln as a six-year-old. what made the biggest impact on me was the replica of the log cabin that they have there in the replica of the lincoln memorial and the next thing that made such an impact on me. they said this is a tree that was here when abraham lincoln was born and somehow just knowing that there was something living there from when he was born just made such an impact on me. so also as a native, kentucky and i have to think both about and mrs. lincoln, and we talked in one of the earlier panels, of course about all of us having to deal with different kinds of media, but she was really savaged in the media was she not during the civil war and so can we talk about that and and then maybe also get into the larger discussion of how first ladies have dealt with media and the changes in media. so i open that up to our group and i start with the dolly connection because this was her this was maybe a fatal decision on mary todd lincoln, by the way. i love that story because that really speaks to the power of place and person and sites presidential site absolutely and sites and the materiality of it and that's something else. we should have a whole another panel on but so i think this is true so mary todd lincoln try to make a sort of kinship connection with dolly madison because dolly had had a first husband john todd who perished in a yellow fever plague and the todd thing was the mary todd mary. lincoln dolly todd madison, okay. and so she tried to emulate dolly and so i meant it when i said dolly set the tone for first ladies for you know two centuries, but she was kind of tone deaf, right? like she threw parties in a war which dolly had done but that wars 1812 wars all happening out there, but the battlefield was like a mile away in virginia. i was just it was bad news, wasn't it? far be it for me to be a mary todd lincoln apologist, but it's worth noting before diana jumps into this because i can. see no first lady. ever gets it right. yeah some big portion of america says you're doing it completely wrong and it should be this way and the other half of america says you're just perfect darling. keep going. no. no first lady ever gets it, right and so mary todd lincoln had her supporters. she's certainly had a lot of detractors and even among his stories today who study here. there are first lady. i guess i would say first lady scholars of different backgrounds who would find mary todd lincoln a figure of tremendous pathos. yes. yes, definitely with a terror just a terrible terrible life and who didn't deserve nearly the criticism she got but she was sort of tone deaf about the parties and the dresses and the money she spent and even her own husband had to say, you know, mary you have to dial back some of this grief because remember the rest of the country's grieving as well. so she's again. i'm not going to be an apologist, but no first lady has ever had a hundred percent thumbs up from the country. well and the thing with mary lincoln too was that she did a lot of very good things she did but she didn't understand public relations as she probably should have she was savaged both in the northern press and the southern press because she was a kentuckyian some of her she came from she had a blended family because her mother had died when she was younger father remarried. she had half brothers who were fighting on behalf of confederacy. so some of the northerners considered her a traitor and of course the south considered her a traitor being married to abraham lincoln and and being the wife of the president so she really was never going to please everybody whether it was in the north or the south and and she was also a westerner. and this was something that other first ladies rachel jackson for example died before her husband was inaugurated and some people believe that it was the way she was savaged in the press they accused they they pictured her as this corn cob smoking woman. of course, they accused her being a bigamist and the press was so horrible. you know, she had a stroke and died before he took office and they they did the same thing to margaret taylor who was an educated woman and tried to portray her also as this corn cob that was sort of the stereotype of somebody from the west if you were in east coast occupant of dc and so mary went through some of that too that she wasn't quite dignified enough so some of her spending came from her wanting to fit in to this social milieu of washington dc and be acceptable as someone who was refined. but she was savaged in the press, but she also went to the the hospitals she would write for wounded soldiers. none of that really came out much at the time and then the support that she gave like i mentioned in our chapter on first ladies and civil rights where she was actually giving money to former slaves to help them live. and this was a type of thing. that didn't come out at that point in time where she needed to take a page out of julia tyler who was john tyler's second wife who hired a press agent. and made sure that certain articles were placed about her and what she was doing and mary just didn't get her positive story out as much as she needed to. well, let's move fully and squarely into the 20th century and again back to media and i'm thinking stacey of changes in visual media coming on yellow journalism. how does that affect first ladies at that early part of the 20th century you've written so extensively written on alice roosevelt longworth for example written on your latest book is on elizabeth arden, correct and how women i'm presuming present themselves. so and if you would like to weave in the fashion component one of our young colleagues talked at the pre lunch panel about her podcast that she gets young people interested in talking about the fashions of carolyn bessette and and they end up being interested in the in the new frontier. so how have first ladies as we get into the more visual side of the media and electronic media begin to have an impact in that way. frankie cleveland was the youngest first lady it's about 21 years old. and she was a kind of a celebrity herself partly her youth partly the interest in the relationship. she was married to a sitting president where she married grover cleveland and you know, she became her her face her name got put on advertisements. she could do nothing about it drove grover cleveland crazy that his wife was used in this way. but, you know wherever she went. she had crowds following her. there's tremendous interest among the american people in frankie, cleveland. and so, you know, this isn't too far ahead in into the 20th century as we moved to the 20th century, but you know eda throws well by the time we get to that point. edith roosevelt was very protective of her family of her children. she loathed what she referred to as camera fiends. didn't didn't want the the photographers around and had post pictures of all the children taken so that they could be released when the newspapers wanted them. she really did not want her children and again, the protection of one's children is another through line that goes all the way from the very beginning to today. you know, melania trump didn't want to move into the white house until barron had finished his schooling up there. so, so the the newspapers the vast increase in the number and types of newspapers published at the end of the 19th century into the 20th century is part of it many more sort of photographic sections in newspapers and then the women's magazines in particulars. they came out began to feature first ladies and much of what they said was true in a good bit was not first ladies tended not to give interviews to journalists of any sort and when they did they did not want to be quoted partly. that was a fear of saying something that would detract from their husbands. program or his presidency in some way, but it was very clear very early on back to dr. august era that the arab study that the first lady was a phenomenal interest to people so trying to keep the camera fiends away was almost a no-hoper. yeah, and i mean we have to look at those again these one of the things women's history has done for us is brought new topics into what quote what is history including things like fashion and sociability and it's important whenever it's a first lady it's never personal. it is always got a policy component. so dolly madison is very sort of authentic personality became a tool of policy for james madison, and she also used fashion and my form of the media because the media at the time didn't do things like you're talking about we're observers, so i would when i was researching dolly madison, i was terribly interested in her outfits and and people's reaction to her and everybody wrote about her. so if you went to one of these parties you saw on the street you wrote home about it, and i enjoyed all of reading all of these descriptions of the outfits and the way she was with people and then i realized that these were not just celebrity mentions that these were actually a form of political analysis because they were looking at her and evaluating her is whether she was the of the right. ruling class. is this a proper person and one of the things that dolly did is she wrote that line that i sort of mentioned between, you know republican virtue exemplified by james madison who was such a non-entity that he got lost in his own parties. and queen dolly who swanned around and fantastical outfits. so she was dolly madison was not a well-dressed woman of fashion. she also did not dress like a real queen in europe. i don't think she knew what that was. she dressed like what americans would imagine a queen would be so fabulous materials, and yes the turbines with the feathers so that when she's walking around that room and the white house, you know, where she is everywhere she goes and and in fact these outfits which were almost like the colors and the -- they were kind of crazy. they unlike a real queen's outfit. she could move quite freely because she needed to come out she needed to connect and she needed to touch and people are writing about this and writing about this and and you understand that this is again not just as what what was she wearing? you know, it was trying to evaluate who this person was and for the most part though dolly had her haters too. so i have to run. yes. she did. she got it right people were very satisfied that they were they had their own. and that was queen dolly democratic queen, but a queen dolly part of mrs. lincoln's problem was as diana said the country is at war so she spent too much under clothing then she was criticized for that every first lady going way back to martha washington has had to walk a fine line between saying i my white house will reflect the best of europe we will be and we will be a washington dc that fits in with every european capital and you can see this in the way that the white house is the the interior designs and you can see in the way dress for example. and on the other side, there are first ladies who had to say no that we are going to showcase the best of american art and culture and and i am not going to dress like i were, you know a european queen so you think about mrs. carter, for example, i'm really skipping ahead now, but rosalyn carter made a virtue in addressing like the everyday woman back up to edith roosevelt who felt this? keenly edith roseville was not particularly a fashion plate and she and her daughter got very good at sending out different slightly different descriptions of the exact same dress to the press. so to find that fine line between being criticized for spending too much money and not spending enough money someone once said of edith, roseville. something like either throws out says she dressed on three hundred dollars a year and she looks it. fine line very difficult to find that middle ground and we can think of the more recent first ladies and my favorite jacqueline kennedy during the campaign and we now think of her as this beautiful fashion icon, but during the campaign of 1960. she was being criticized. she says in our oral history the things that used to be viewed as a handicapped to my husband. they said because i spoke french or because i dressed in a beautiful way that that was detracting from my husband then she said when i became first lady then that seemed to help but during the campaign she was it was quoted in the paper that someone said she spent $30,000 right a year on on her clothing and she fired back and she said, oh i couldn't spend that much if i were sable underwear, and so she she took it nancy reagan, of course ran into this she was being her loaned beautiful designer gowns for events at the white house and other events and then there was a criticism of was she paying for those or not and when it came out that perhaps she was not pain and not just having them loan to her, but she was keeping them in her closet. so you might remember at the white house correspondence dinners. she did that great send-up of herself where she dressed like carol burnett's char woman and and sent came out into the tune of secondhand rose and i'm wearing second hand clothes. i'm wearing second and close and she brought the house down and and if if you are being attacked and you can make fun of yourself or poke fun at yourself, that's a lesson, of course to be learned. let's talk about some other technological changes. that would have changed the role of first lady and that is as travel became more of an opportunity and ease or ease of travel. so the railroads come into being and then obviously planes about all of the first ladies that you know, and you've studied and what travel then actually contributed to their own work and to the work of their husbands. well, the pokes did a trip down to the south. and sarah polk went with him. and this was one of the early opportunities for a woman to be beside her husband someplace outside of washington. you know, this was the thing if anyone knew about the first ladies outside of the washington area, it was either in their home state or from what they were reading in the press and so with train travel it then gave the wives an opportunity to travel with the husbands, so they had a very successful run down. through several states and that i think was important for some of her image. the clevelands traveled together there were several others garfields so early on after the train, you know, the lincolns came. from illinois to washington on a train from springfield and had stops all along the way so people got to see the first lady before inauguration. so it really was important beginning to travel around the country is around the country so citizens who won't normally be able to be in washington get a sense of who the first family is and mrs. wilson went abroad than with withrow wilson the second mrs. wilson, correct? yes the war. yes, and just before that. this is a another topic that that comes together first lady scholars tend to look at when did first ladies begin to campaign with their husbands? and so these opportunities to with the husband? began to overlap with campaigning some wives went either throws out went for example on trips when he was campaigning not even always for himself and in part to see what he did, you know, so it was useful first ladies or potential first ladies to see how their husbands interacted with the public. so edith. well the second mrs. wilson. ellen wilson was woodrow wilson's first wife and she died in the white house. so when president wilson remarried his second wife edith went abroad with him during the time. he was negotiating the treaty of versa to conclude world war one. and this was a very important moment for her to see her husband acclaimed essentially as the savior of the of the war. so that was that was an important step forward. but even your closer to your eras the lady bird johnson and the whistle stop. yes in the whistles up you and yeah, so even in the era of plane travel you of course had truman doing the the whistle stop and then ladybird in 64 as i mentioned, which was an incredibly important trip in that gave her a chance to travel and to begin seeing that it was okay for women to to campaign for their husbands to be surrogates. you know, that's one thing we haven't really talked about yet. is this whole surrogate ocean and how the wife can do a lot to restore a president's image and you mentioned frankie cleveland who became francis cleveland after she married you don't know he had been her father was his law partner and her father died when she was very young and he was her ward essentially and everyone thought he was going to marry her mother. and she did a tour of europe after she graduated from college and there were all these rumors and they she came back from her european tour and he buries the daughter instead of the mother. so everyone was enthralled but if you remember also grover cleveland mama, where's my paw gone to the white house? hahaha. so by marrying frankie cleveland, he really had a redemption of his image and then when he came in for a second term, they had they be ruth the candy bars named after they now have a young child and they had just and the first child born in the white house was the cleveland's second daughter. so it was a rehabilitation of grover cleveland's image by marrying francis, and she even had to make some public statements. there were rumors that he was abusive and so she went on record publicly about what a great husband he was and on and on and so people saw change in him. and so there was a very different grover cleveland as a result. and women, you know betty ford vote for betty's husband because everybody loved betty ford, and we've seen more and more of that that the wives often have higher ratings than the husbands and i don't think of that as surrogate in the sense of a substitute. i think it's an addition. so sea mart seymour martin lipset had a who's a political scientist at a category called the charismatic figure and he was talking about george washington that way and dolly madison really pioneered this role, which is that you could be this carrier of your husband's message. you could be a larger than life entity that had good and bad things because you could also be a but you could be imparting messages of authority and legitimacy of reassurance of americanness of modernity the way jacqueline kennedy did and michelle obama, so it's like an extension a personification of your husband's message. yeah. so lazy bird did that really well with great society programs extremely well, and another change that happens to get back to your question barbara earlier along these lines is women who open up the role of the first lady by opening simultaneously opening up the white house to the people. i'm thinking about women who were more forthcoming about their health. i mean, you know mrs. ford betty ford is our probably our best example, but she's not the first one who was less private about her health concerns and so shared with with the american people what was going on before before then there was a lot of health concerns hidden both of the president and the first lady and when betty ford allowed americans to learn about her breast cancer, this is something that we can actually put a number two. we know for a fact that in this way. i think betty ford saved, who knows how many lives because women went and got mammograms after this happened and she was it was a kind of bravery. it's hard to reimagine. although some of you will know at that time. we didn't even say the word cancer let alone the word breath, you know, so this is the first lady going beyond what her husband had originally imagined right and as you say can be quantified indeed last point speaking of being open and opened up we would like you to come to the microphones and ask your questions now and while you're thinking of those just a last point about travel by first ladies, it's exactly 60 years ago this month that mrs. kennedy undertook her trip to pakistan and india by herself did not that is did not go with the and and those two countries are always a bit tense and certainly during the cold war. she did take her sister lee reds will but they had a really charming and and wonderful trip and that is that concept of diplomacy and carrying the image of the country in the cold war when we were trying to tell those countries. we called them then third world that we would say developing but we were trying to get them to our side so they wouldn't join in the the communist side or the soviet sphere the chinese sphere and she was able to present the country abroad and certainly at home. so with that let me bring my friend and thank you, dr. perry. you can take this as broadly or as narrowly as you desire but in your opinion, which first lady singular or i guess couple first ladies plural wielded the most power during their time in the white house. so the question i think most first ladies scholars would come up with would be edith wilson, right? i the answer rather. no, dr. august looked at me like maybe not. i'm pondering and that was such a tricky question. very good. very good. lawyer that was why that was tricky. there you go. woodrow wilson was in terrible health throughout most of his life in fact, and we look back on this now and we see the perhaps he was having. many strokes as it were during his marriage to his first wife. so the the terrible health problems. he had during his second marriage that led up to his paralysis and his inability real well separate process inability to conduct the business estate. i think is is probably what leads to the answer of edith wilson, and she i think edith wilson also because she becomes the the example of what not to do is first lady edith wilson overstepped bounds. she she decided when when president wilson was so ill she made several decisions about him that resulted in her. not exactly running the country, but she certainly misled the american people. she decided not to tell him the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the cabinet the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the american people the extent it was ill health. she decided that he should not step down. although there was no we didn't have a requirement for that and the vice president was widely seen as week or inconsequential and she continued to insist that he would be able to continue to be service president. she decided which mail he would see she decided which people would come to him. she decided which topics he should take up. she determined the timing of all this and this is all happening in the context of trying to bring a conclusion to world war one. so edith wilson is the is the person that we look back to and say you step too far and and we see this because even during nancy reagan's time when they were intimations that nancy reagan was was too powerful wore the pants in the reagan family too many times journalists at the time called upon edith wilson and suggested in nancy reagan that she was going to make a misstep akin to mrs. wilson's there are many other i mean many many many first ladies who are very powerful, but i think that the answer would probably start with edith wilson. all right, so i'm gonna make this case i knew she would i'm gonna do it. so it's the end of of the war of 1812. been in this war nothing this is the war that shouldn't have even ended before began. they conceded the british conceded don't made me explain it they conceited but we had the war anyway, and at the end of it loss of treasure lives. nothing gained capital burned to the ground. and yet the celebrations of this war this is right at the end of madison the madison presidency and james and dolly go off and a golden glow. in fact, they can't leave town after the inauguration because people just want to give them parties and everybody is celebrating this warm. it's making the americans outbreak gallatin said feel more american than ever. they're jumping with joy. how did that happen? and i would say that it was dolly madison's efforts during the war of 1812 to unify the capital unify the country emerge as the savior of washington city as one of the early stories that just made americans feel pretty darn good about this. and that really was the era of good feelings. i don't have convinced you. i'd go ahead. yeah, i'd put in a plug also for sarah poke and amy greenberg's biography of her is outstanding. i highly recommend it. it's a lady first is the title, but she was essentially the chief of staff. she you know, he as i said had health issues and she was perceived by many as very powerful. she was very savvy she knew how to work her way around washington and followed a lot of the dolly madison getting the right people together. both people on both sides of the aisle respected her, but she would read the newspapers every morning and give him a summary. she worked on his speeches when he was running for governor of tennessee. she was back in his second campaign when he was incumbent governor. she was essentially watching over the governorship while he campaigned and she took a lot of that same practice to the white house so she would give him far more advice and he'd listen to her advice more than some of his cabinet officials. and so she and when she was accused of being too powerful or controlling him, she would essentially say, you know, i'm saving his health she also managed his schedule to try to once again save his energy and so this would be i'm just being a good wife. so she used that domestic sphere as her defense that i'm just looking out for his well-being so that he can be president and do the right things and that was how she deflected some of the criticism but she was essentially a chief of staff to him grace coolidge was much beloved by the american people in large measure because she was a very traditional wife who dressed very well was a very good mother suffered the grief of a death of a child in the white house, but one of the reasons that people like grace college so much is because three first ladies who came before her or why they considered to have had a little too much power. so edith wilson and helen here in taft and florence harding all very powerful first ladies. so grace benefited from that. there is a blowback though, isn't there on this accountability and mike dean elected for the first ladies who come after a first lady who's perceived his powerful whether they want to cut back or not. i think they feel the pressure from the public to do that. we have a question here. yes, i've heard edith wilson referred to as our first female president, and i'm also surprised in this discussion that you haven't mentioned eleanor roosevelt, but that's not my question. my question is political writers and pundits are very free about ranking our best president in our worst presidents, and i wonder if you would go so far as to maybe talk about who are our good first. ladies and who were our worst and i know a lot of people get that. they're not elected. they're thrust into the position and some people rise to the occasion and some don't but i just wonder if you would be involved in ranking or judge that this audience likes trouble. it's a project to work on to be sure i didn't want to take the chairs prerogative, but i will speak about eleanor roosevelt. anyone here from hyde park. well, i'll tell you another site story. then my upcoming book will be on the political relationship between john kennedy and eleanor roosevelt. and we could have a discussion on the power of first ladies after they leave the white house because so many of them had continuing power or maybe even more power but after they left the white house and certainly eleanor roosevelt would fall into a category such as that, but she was was let's put it this way very influential on our topic today if for no other reasons the longevity of her time in the white house because of her husband's 12 years there, but i became interested in this particular topic at the site at the hyde park side. i had not been there until 2010 and of course i went through the main house where fdr was born and i didn't i didn't realize i had a personal relationship with him as i have felt with president kennedy because of my mother taking me to see him and yet i had all these stories that had collected from my parents and my aunts and uncles about coming along in the depression and what fdr and eleanor roosevelt meant to them. and so the ranger the park ranger was taking us through the mansion and we turned a corner and he said this is the room where franklin roosevelt was born and i burst into tears a very embarrassing to my friend who was accompanying me because i was sobbing on his shoulder, but then we went to val kill to see mrs. roosevelt's home that she had built in part to have her own life and let's face it to get away from her domineering mother-in-law and i saw this picture of president kennedy then candidate kennedy coming out of the valquil living room eleanor lead in the way with these brilliant bright smiles and yet i knew they had a problematic relationship politically and so i wanted to study that so that will be my next book, but certainly you would have to put her at or near the top in terms of influential not only again during her first ladyship all of the work that she did in so many fields you've already mentioned we did mention her. relation for example to civil rights. she was always telling her husband, you know, please get the anti-linching bill through congress and yet we have to say we've said sort of the negative of they're not being elected and accountable but in some ways that was a problem fdr was saying look i have to run and i also have to keep on my side the two-thirds of the senate and the house who are southern democrats and in order to get my new deal legislation pass through i can't put them off by supporting the anti lynching bill. so sometimes the first ladies have that advantage of not having to worry about being on the ballot and then sometimes they can't do what they want because they're not on the ballot. but anyway, we'd have to put her up there and then to have led as our really our in some ways our first ambassador to the united nations when it was founded after husband's death after the war after world war two the declaration of human rights the universal declaration of human rights and then i'll give her a out because in a way she helped jack kennedy be elected because they buried the hatchet at a lunch at valkil in august of 1960 and they didn't bury it in each other. so they yeah they came to common ground as we talked about last night at the at the wonderful panel, you know, can we not find common ground those were two people in the same party, but had very different backgrounds and very different views and they found common ground and worked with each other and by the way again given that we're in the women's history month president kennedy named mrs. roosevelt to chair his president's commission on the status of women, and that led to having similar commissions on women's rights in the status of women in every one of the 50 states and eventually led to the founding of the national organization of women and what we consider to be the modern feminist movement and eleanor in response to the ranking eleanor on most of the polls that have been taking is number one and we'll stay there and i think the reason we mentioned her as one of the powerful first ladies. i think we were thinking of it more in terms of directing the president or like you said usurping wilson, but she redefined what a first lady could be. and that's why i think she's up there at the top. she was the first really activist first lady. she showed how she could go out and really promote what her husband was doing. she was his eyes his legs his ears and so in that sense, it wasn't her own agenda. she was really furthering his and providing him with that feedback from around the country that he couldn't personally get because of his physical limitations and i think i think you brought this up, but we're successfully avoiding her questions. so we have heard it. we are now sidestepping it but i do i do think looking at what a first lady does afterwards because they sometimes wake up to their power and i would include mrs. laura bush in that and incredibly active post first lady lady. yeah, yes. i mean so there we go. we'll be seen her this evening, right? yes next question. thank you very much for all of your insight when i think about the influence that first lady may have i think about the resources that the first lady may need to make that influence. so, can you talk about how the the budget for the first lady has involved over the years? we yes, we may need to call it in here. maybe it's there isn't one there. hadn't been one or even office space or anything else like that. you know, the east wing is a relatively new phenomenon within the white house from a physical space edith roosevelt was the first to actually hire someone to work for her and then for many years they were conscripting people from other departments to help out and agencies, but you know people are shocked when i i do a lot of public lectures on first ladies for both students and other groups and they're all they say. well, how much does the first lady get paid, you know zero and and they're stunned. it's like well, but it's a full-time job. yes, either throws about higher the first social secretary, but she did. pay for the caterers out of her own pocket. you know, what, would you rather do right the letters or make the meals? anita would be a wonderful person to talk to you about that the money actually she'd be our best expert. yeah. hi, thank you so much for this discussion this afternoon. it's my understanding that eleanor roosevelt. really didn't enjoy the public eye at first and somewhat struggled with. with having that that public persona and getting involved, but then she she really made a breakthrough and became one of our most remembered first ladies. my question is are there other first ladies who had a similar struggle like that and then made that breakthrough and were able to make some really important. changes in their experience well, there were several who? had at least many years before the presidency to take care of some of that both bushes. i think laura bush did not expect to be married to a politician and barbara bush was terrified of public speaking and the way she developed on the communication person. so i really study a lot about what they do with their public speaking, but she she would do slide shows when she would go back to texas. she would take her children around all the monuments when he was in congress, and she developed her public speaking skills from doing slideshows back in texas so that she had a crutch and they were looking at her lady bird johnson sabotage being valedictorian of her high school graduating class. she purposely got a bee in a class so that she wouldn't be so she wouldn't have to give a speech. and she took a public speaking course with a group of other senate wives and that was how she got over it and she wasn't excited when she married linden. i mean many of these women came into this reluctantly but then saw because they had a public service commitment that this was something that was very important to the country and that they could make a real contribution. so they overcame fears of public speaking they overcame, you know the fear of being out there in the public is all in a roosevelt and so many of the other ones did but it's really more common. we had a few wives actually prayed mrs. pierce that her husband wouldn't win because she didn't want to get involved in most first ladies said they didn't want to be first lady and and some of them that were sort of duped along the way it was joe biden who said to jill nothing will change nothing will change for you when you marry me and of course eleanor roosevelt, i think we could say started out as an introvert. but she had to become available to be her husband's legs when polio afflicted him in the early 20s. and so that's when she started really going out to speak in that case for him or keep his name out in public and really took lessons from louis howe his his great political advisor and then because she had done that she actually took public speaking lessons. she began writing to president kennedy once he was in the white house and told him he needed to see a public speech expert to improve his public speaking. what did ted sorensen i don't think she can play she didn't complain about the speech content. she wrote a very complimentary note about his inaugural address, but later on she said you do need your throat is too tight. hello. my name is jill scotty, and i'm the superintendent of jimmy carter national historical park. thank you and i want to say something that i say about 10 times a day mrs. carter's name is pronounced rosalyn. she's named after her aunt lynn and her cousin rose and i always tell people remember rose garden rosalind, so wanted to just make that clear. thank you. thank you. well, thank you very much barbara if you would allow me to say something in the minute we have left. yes have one minute and catherine wishes to speak. um, it's been this has been wonderful and i've done several of these programs for the white house historical association, and i've been in the first lady game about 25 years and what's been amazing for me is to see how it's grown as a field of study. it started to be an almost like compulsive focus on biography and it really wasn't clear really why you should care about a particular first lady. some of them were fascinating some of them weren't none of them plan to be first lady pretty much and it's grown from that to actually being an intellectually sophisticated category of analysis. we're looking at first ladies. tell us something about women about power about american. tree and the white house historical association has played such a large part in that and it shouldn't be surprising. it was founded by our first lady, but the truth is understood there has been a real focus on first lady studies taking it seriously obviously having anita mcbride as the leadership in the organization has sharpened that and it has been my pleasure to sit with these women and other women over the years and watch this field grow. you've mentioned flair and flair which tell us what is this again? first lady is association for research and education. it's brand fairly brand new and it really i would say it is that it is the child of the white house historical association's focus on first lady, so i just want to thank you anita and stuart wherever you are, but thank you so much. thank you. thank you.
the brightest jewels in the crown of a first lady historians of america, so starting with dr. barbara perry. and while dr. perry is walking up here. it should be noted that she just came out today with an article. in the publication the hill on first ladies in war and as as barbara said she she was inspired by the association. and she is the gerald bayless professor and director of presidential studies the university of virginia's miller center. and currently serves on the board which we are very honored the board of directors of the white house historical association. joining her on stage our panelist. dr. diana carlin professor emerit of communications and many have called her the queen of communications at saint louis university and then we have dr. catherine al gore who made a very fabulous statement earlier today in the session the president of the massachusetts historical society. and dr. stacy cordary, which i understand is a british way to pronounce it and she is dennis and didn't denison von johnson endowed chair of theodore roosevelt honors leadership studies at dickinson state university. this is an incredible panel and as stuart has always advised us. we have a responsibility here. to inspire to encourage and to teach and i think with this panel you will get an abundance of material. thank you so much. well, welcome everyone to this panel on first ladies. thank you teresa for that very nice introduction. thank you to stuart and to anita for this amazing summit here in dallas that we've all been waiting. so to participate in and attend and to be in person you and the team at the white house historical association have done amazing work as you always do and many thanks to my colleagues here all of who's work has inspired mine over the years. so i'm very grateful to them. so as teresa said we're going to be looking at first ladies today and thinking about their influence on their president husbands. we're going to be thinking about when they promote change and sometimes we talked about when they have not been in favor of change which we can decide might be a good or a bad thing. let me start i'd like the last panel when we said let's do a flash poll. how many of you either work in the field the first ladies or where you work has some connection with first ladies or you just are a first lady aficionado. let's see a show of hands great. well, this is super we welcome you all and and for those of you who don't we hope to spread the word about first ladies and flare particularly as well as the white house historical association all of its good work in this field. so we wanted to start with a pretty basic question and that is how did the position of first ladies come to be? that's not in the constitution as the presidential position is an offices and it's an unelected position as we know. so how did it start and i'm going to turn to my first two colleagues to my left here to diana who is writing a book about all first ladies a textbook and you might tell us a little bit about that today and we want to start with the very first first ladies, and i also want to turn as well to catherine al gore because she's a specialist on the founding first ladies as well in particularly dolly madison, so let me turn to diana first. well, i don't think you can really study the presidency without studying the first ladies now, i'm biased but i believe that and it really started because this has been a partnership from the beginning. when martha washington arrived in new york a couple months after the president had arrived she was greeted with by the president in a barge. he then in new jersey wrote her over to the shore in new york. she was greeted with a gun salute and people were yelling long live lady washington and when she arrived she found out she already had a schedule. they they realize that because our president is both head of government and head of state that there would be events that needed to be planned with dignitaries that he needed to have these members of congress there and that they needed to host them and so nobody was better than martha at that because she'd been doing it for years. so she had a schedule she had restrictions and so it was a two-person career from the very beginning and she had abigail at her side and let catherine talk a little bit more about that. but martha definitely understood the concept of soft power. and that has been something that has been a trend for first ladies to use all the way through since the beginning. so the beginning was that martha really was a partner as she had been with the president all through their marriage and through his years during the revolutionary war where she would go to the camps the winter camps every year and would assist him and try to keep morell up and organize sewing circles and that type of thing, but it was a partnership it still is and so the two go together. she was not called first lady that didn't really happen until later in the 19th century. she was called lady washington, which was the term that was given to her by some of the revolutionary war soldiers. they even had a lady washington's brigade and that was sort of the vestige of the british past that she was also an example of what a southern lady would be. so that was the beginning. i just think it's really striking. so in other venues, i've actually said the dolly madison was the first first lady and i'm prepared found that but the truth is you're right right from the beginning martha washington is getting the message. but what's also true again? there's an intentionality from her so she begins dressing a certain way and she along with george washington and alexander hamilton. maybe john jay. they start communicating about the kinds of ceremonies. that would be proper for a new republic. because of course at that time they got a real tight kind of like lane to stay in. the american colonists had rebelled against the monarchy they were going to create the world anew the world turned upside down antimonarchical anti-king anti-royalties all going to be new. except when it came to ruling they realized that the only vocabulary of power they had was monarchical and aristotle and so how are they going to cut that and so we have these moments in the historical record where george washington is wondering exactly how many pairs of matched horses is enough to convey his authority pulling his carriage the and how much would be like too much? i think the answer was three pair but the same thing with martha, how would she dress that would convey a sense to the outsiders who are not sure this america thing was going to work and the new americans who are not sure this american thing was going to work that they were being ruled properly and well and they came up with ceremonies that tried to combine a kind of almost democratic energy. i think with you know, some some kind of vestige of royalty and that's why i think lady washington and dolly madison is going to be lady, but she's else would be queen dolly. yes. yes. so thoughts about we can't leave the founding. we've certainly need to get to more of dolly madison. but abigail adams, we always cite her letter to her husband about the constitutional convention about don't forget the ladies when they were putting together the constitution but of course in a way they did but any thoughts about abigail and and john adams and and moving into the white house. well, yes, and there are the first couple to move into the white house. nobody stayed terribly long. they weren't impressed. i think abigail in some ways embodies another part of the partnership that diana is talking about she really wasn't interested in what they would call presiding. so she adopted martha's innovations and ceremonies rather dutifully, but the role that abigail played was really that of advisor. she really was her husband's closest. sir, and in the spirit of republican virtue, that's small our republican virtue john adams made the terrible decision not to change his cabinet. so he ended up the cabinet full of let's just called them traders all working behind his back so he would have always relied on abigail but in that particular circumstance, she really was his very closest advisor and that's fascinating that you're mentioning that catherine because really coming up to modern first ladies and contemporary first ladies in terms of personnel issues. we know for example that nancy reagan so important on issues of personnel never afraid to tell her husband that person should go that person's not good for you. so it clearly starts at the very beginning in that kind of advisory capacity. so before we come back to dolly, let me turn to my colleague stacy and we did a panel some months ago in the midst of the pandemic when we were always online and doing these great panels for the white house historical associ. and for flair and stacy came up with a set of i guess you would call them roadmaps or criteria. just how do we know if a first lady is being influential? how do we know that at the time if we do know it what are some of the sign posts that we might see and then afterwards how do we know what what are some of the signals that a first is being influential? well, these are many of these go back to the very earliest first ladies as you two have discussed. and some of it is common sensical did has she achieved what she said she would achieve in some cases and on the other end of the scale as we have the sienna first ladies poll. so just like we take a sounding of what americans think about how well they're presidents succeeding. how weird is the first lady stand in that as well? we look at how her relationship with her husband seems to succeed or fail how any cause she might espouse supports her husband's programs. there are a number of ways that we i think try to decide what whether first lady successful or not. it gets tricky when you try to really put a number on it because so many of these causes are causes that are continued from first lady who proceeded them and and sometimes the the country changes so much that that causes get abandoned because something else comes in their place. well, it seems to me that one of the things that we mentioned about martha washington. and again, we'll lead us into dolly is the concept of soft power and i am a pseudo historian. i'm really trained as a political scientist. so we like to think in terms of power and how power is used and defining power and typically political scientists and others. will define soft power as diplomatic power diplomacy cultural exchanges, and we know that first ladies certainly have excelled at that. so let's think in those terms in lynn. let's turn to dolly in that you called it catherine when we were first talking this unofficial role because again, this is a position that that is given to this woman. who's the spouse of the president simply because she's the spouse of the president. yeah, and i mean i at some point somebody's going to ask the very rude question. why should we care about first lady and one of the things is that by studying first ladies the same way studying women their words their work their lives. we learn things we would not have known about and it cannot just be a record of contributions but constitutions and that it can change the narrative and maybe one of the things that's going to do for you political scientists. is to change that word soft power which sounds soft and not powerful because it may be this thing. we're calling soft power might be the power studying first. ladies brings out the study of the every day for instance the power of the everyday the power of material in different ways. so to address your question quite directly and using the roadmap you gave us she's good on this one james madison's major issue that he had to solve was the question of unity. this was alluded to i think earlier in the day, but this was the time when the united states of america was referred to in the plural. the united states are right because nobody was sure this republican experiment was going to hold nobody the outsiders from europe looking with john just die and the people the new americans themselves. and james madison believed in unity, and he believed and he worried because he didn't think that enough unified the cold-blooded new englanders and the hot blooded virginians and he saw this group of people who were so very different and he said, you know, we don't have what he called veneration but history like we don't even have history. we don't have blood. we barely have a language and sometimes it will shake yet that we all understood each other, but we had to have unity so in theory, he understood unity. he didn't have the appetite, but if you think of it in that way and then you look at all the dolly madison did in helping to found and cement washington dc is the capital and finally save it when you look at the parties where she brought people together in the room and made them behave. so they got to know each other's human beings. her role is the charismatic figure using her dress and her parties. all of that can be seen as fulfilling this role of unity and you might say unity which is an emotional or a psychological state is quote soft power but in the end, it's what got the united states of america into the singular through the war and off really often to democracy. and if you haven't read catherine's book on the madison's marriage, it's a it's a perfect union. correct the title. well, it's a perfect union because i do think james and dolly were perfectly matched different in a political but also proof union because as historians we always think what is the concatenation of person and circumstance and if the american revolution had never happened, i guess dolly would have just been a virginia gentry wife who through great parties by the way, but she rose to those circumstances and just to get back to you use the word unofficial and again, this is i think shows us something important when i studied earlier republic and and i did read a little blue signs. i figured out that for politics to happen. you need two spheres and one is official and one is unofficial and the officials fair you all know. it's the speeches and the legislator legislation and the peace treaties and all of that. it's the product of politics, but then there's got to be a process. there's got to be a place. where people can get together and they can propose things. they might not propose in the official spotlight the glare of the spotlight they have to be able to negotiate. they also have to get to know each other as human beings. and that is the unofficial sphere and because that takes place in people's homes, and it's social events women are disproportionately represented in that sphere, but you need both of those. and if somebody asked me, you know sometimes what's wrong with washington, which i don't like to come out on contemporary things. it's the lack of the unofficial sphere. there's no place where men and women can get together and understand that though you and i might have a very different idea of the public good. we do share a commitment to the public good and so again by studying first ladies, that's where you see the power of that and and and note the absence of it when when it's gone. right? well, i think the importance of dolly also is that she not only did this for her husband, but dolly then tutored several other first lady who came after her, you know after james madison died. she moved back to washington and she helped court a lot, but i think about sarah pope and you know james pope probably the most successful one-term president. we've had ran on four parts of a platform and accomplished all of them. he knew his health wasn't in great shape, so he didn't run for a second term, but sarah spent a lot of time learning from dolly. well, she really set the tone for i mean decades. yeah, eleanor roosevelt being the exception that proved the rule but mrs. kennedy, i love that. she didn't like the idea of redecorating the white house a lot of people say dolly redecorated the white house, but what she did was restructure it in a way that mrs. kennedy would have proved by this is amazing that before dolly's white house, which is called the executive mansion and it would only be during her tenure where it would get that familiar loving nickname the white house there was no place in the in the capital city where all the men of government could get together. let alone their families let alone visiting diplomats. let alone visiting americans let alone anybody it was so what dolly did was she took that executive mansion and she turned it in to a center for entertaining where everybody in town would show up and they did and she threw weekly parties and they were as regular and as grueling as they sound but they became an independent and indispensable part of the washington political machine. and it's in those parties. i can tend that these people learn to work together in a bipartisan ways going towards something they didn't even know is going to happen, which is that this one party republic was going to turn into a two-party democracy. you know, we're certainly still in in the earliest days of this office. but stacey focuses on the early 20th century first ladies, and so let's turn to her and thoughts about how the role had changed was it has it been changing. did it change did the civil war for example change it as we get closer than into the gilded age and then the 20th century before we talk about change. i think it's worth pointing out that what dr. algar has been describing is the consistent through the through the centuries. edith roosevelt for example provided a space where theodore roosevelt could meet together with booker t, washington that was not something it could have happened. just anywhere in washington dc, you know so that space that first ladies and first families in general have provided for gathering americans across the political divide as has been a crucial part of it. i think that's why in historical historians solidarity with dr. algo there unofficially the unofficial sphere is such an important term rather than i know political science and soft power, but that unofficial sphere is integral to the what the first lady has always done even down to today. so changes. well, there's a there are many changes and we can talk more about these but it has to do with the growth of a gender expectations the growth of women's activity in the world as we move through the century the civil war. it makes changes women's war work and then as we get towards the gilded age and moving into the progressive era that's sort of work that women do in the world. to move out of their domestic sphere which was the socially dictated acceptable place for women to be education and yeah, yep carry on there's met there's a million changes education is just one so certainly by the time you reach the first decade of 20th century and edith roosevelt helen taft. you have many solitaries, but many many differences, too. so well, i think just to defend my discipline. i think the reason why male political scientists focus on soft powers that they also focus on hard power and they want to make that distinction. of course, they view hard powers the military power and the economic sanctions all of which we're seeing now, but i think in this month of women's history, you know, we want to think certainly much more broadly beyond those two categories and when you mentioned women's history month, it's great that we're doing this now because i really think that if you look at the ark of american women's history, you have to look at first ladies. once again, we those of us who study first ladies say that they mirror society and women's roles and so went by studying those first ladies you get this little microcosm of what was happening. we talked about this division of spheres. but they also produce change and so that arc of history were the changes and so you begin to see the first ladies for instance who have an education who have a college education lucy hayes the first one you see where the first ladies were on suffrage. and interestingly you did not have them favoring suffrage at least not explicitly because politically it would not have been wise for some of them to have done that because the suffragists were basically viewed as radical extremely radical and then when you look at temperance was another issue that was also tied in with the suffrage movement later and all of these women were held up to a certain standard as to whether they were serving wine or hard liquor or nothing in the way of alcoholic drinks in the white house and that all played in with the movement. so it i really don't think you can separate first lady's history from american women's history. there's a paradox who that you're reminding me of which i think is also part of white women's history, which is this paradox if you had called dolly madison a feminist she would have been horrified first. you didn't confuse because nobody use that word, but she wouldn't horrified and and you would point out to her you'd say well mrs. madison, you know, you go get legislation passed for your you know constituency in virginia those revolutionary war pensions, and don't you get jobs for the sons of your friends and political supporters. that's called patronage mrs. madison, and she would say i am supporting my husband. so i'm supporting my husband and his goals and i'm not doing anything and that kind of denial of political intent or i guess political intent or ambition is so very typical, especially a middling and elite white women and you see it these women using they're very conservative positions to actually foster what we call radical change right they had access to power and if you look at the anti-suffrage movement, it was often very elite women whose husbands were powerful positions who have posted because they had a pathway to power and so some of these women did not thinking about all the other women who didn't you know, you mentioned the i'm actually writing it. nita mcbride and nancy keegan smith who's some of you know, who was at the national archives for many years. and the second chapter of our book we the first chapter we look at this whole notion of the evolution of the position including when the title came into play, but our second chapter is on first ladies and civil rights. and we put that at the front of the book because we wanted to once again show this arc of history through the women who were the first lady and so you start with martha washington who brought in slave servants to the homes in both, new york and philadelphia and in philadelphia, they were doing it pretty much they had to skirt the law if they had kept their enslaved servants there for more than six months. they were free. so they would send them back to mount vernon. and so there was this back and forth in order to evade this law. we had 10 families in the white house historical association because michelle obama brought that to their attention looked at slavery in the white house. so 10 different families had brought in slave servants and part of the reason some of them did it was that congress was so tight with the money for running the household and they had to use a lot of their own money. it was just they would bring their own enslaved servants with them to say, you know on the funds so we look in this chapter starting with martha washington and the contributions those early southern first ladies made to systemic racism. and then we get into. you know mary lincoln who has an african freed woman who is her dressmaker and she is giving money to the freed slaves who have come to the dc area and are living hand to mouth and she's taking her own money and supporting them then you get up to eleanor roosevelt. you know who did amazing things and was actually on a hit list by the ku klux klan they had a bounty on her head for what she was doing to promote civil rights and to bring the issue of lynching out lady bird johnson's incredible whistle stop tour after the civil rights act in 64. so we really and then of course we get historic michelle obama, and so we trace that history and look at where these women sort of fit in from these elite southern women. up to michelle obama and i think it's a good way for people to see this relationship between first ladies in history and the impact. and social history stacy, i think did you have your oh, i was just going to just on the topic of suffrage. there were small cadre of elite women in america, of course who did support suffrage but among elite women most of whom we can count the first ladies among. alice roosevelt longworth was a first daughter. once said i have more power around my dining room table then i have with one vote. yeah, that's a great kind of sum up that attitude. yeah. she also said if you can't say something nice come sit by me right didn't she have an embroidered pillow that said that on her couch, i love that. oh, can we circle back to mrs. lincoln? we don't want to quite park on the 20th 21st century, but some of you here know my personal story of how i became interested in the presidency in the white house's my dear mother took me to see john f kennedy campaigning and our hometown of louisville, kentucky in october of 1960. just one month before he was elected and i always start with that story because my mother was not a political scientist or historian. she was out in the suburbs of louisville raising baby boomer children, and but was very well read and and a wonderful grammarian and a champion speller and and but she just was drawn to him we're catholic he was the same generation. he was a world war two veteran is it was my father but the next memory i have a i think i was about six was being taken to hodgenville, kentucky to see lincoln's birthplace. so one one moment taken to see an almost president one from some time before and then a couple years later my dad took me out to the airport in louisville to see ex-president eisenhower come through and he was campaigning in the 1962 midterm. so came from a very bipartisan household, but i always say that when i went as age six to see the presidential side of the birthplace of abraham lincoln as a six-year-old. what made the biggest impact on me was the replica of the log cabin that they have there in the replica of the lincoln memorial and the next thing that made such an impact on me. they said this is a tree that was here when abraham lincoln was born and somehow just knowing that there was something living there from when he was born just made such an impact on me. so also as a native, kentucky and i have to think both about and mrs. lincoln, and we talked in one of the earlier panels, of course about all of us having to deal with different kinds of media, but she was really savaged in the media was she not during the civil war and so can we talk about that and and then maybe also get into the larger discussion of how first ladies have dealt with media and the changes in media. so i open that up to our group and i start with the dolly connection because this was her this was maybe a fatal decision on mary todd lincoln, by the way. i love that story because that really speaks to the power of place and person and sites presidential site absolutely and sites and the materiality of it and that's something else. we should have a whole another panel on but so i think this is true so mary todd lincoln try to make a sort of kinship connection with dolly madison because dolly had had a first husband john todd who perished in a yellow fever plague and the todd thing was the mary todd mary. lincoln dolly todd madison, okay. and so she tried to emulate dolly and so i meant it when i said dolly set the tone for first ladies for you know two centuries, but she was kind of tone deaf, right? like she threw parties in a war which dolly had done but that wars 1812 wars all happening out there, but the battlefield was like a mile away in virginia. i was just it was bad news, wasn't it? far be it for me to be a mary todd lincoln apologist, but it's worth noting before diana jumps into this because i can. see no first lady. ever gets it right. yeah some big portion of america says you're doing it completely wrong and it should be this way and the other half of america says you're just perfect darling. keep going. no. no first lady ever gets it, right and so mary todd lincoln had her supporters. she's certainly had a lot of detractors and even among his stories today who study here. there are first lady. i guess i would say first lady scholars of different backgrounds who would find mary todd lincoln a figure of tremendous pathos. yes. yes, definitely with a terror just a terrible terrible life and who didn't deserve nearly the criticism she got but she was sort of tone deaf about the parties and the dresses and the money she spent and even her own husband had to say, you know, mary you have to dial back some of this grief because remember the rest of the country's grieving as well. so she's again. i'm not going to be an apologist, but no first lady has ever had a hundred percent thumbs up from the country. well and the thing with mary lincoln too was that she did a lot of very good things she did but she didn't understand public relations as she probably should have she was savaged both in the northern press and the southern press because she was a kentuckyian some of her she came from she had a blended family because her mother had died when she was younger father remarried. she had half brothers who were fighting on behalf of confederacy. so some of the northerners considered her a traitor and of course the south considered her a traitor being married to abraham lincoln and and being the wife of the president so she really was never going to please everybody whether it was in the north or the south and and she was also a westerner. and this was something that other first ladies rachel jackson for example died before her husband was inaugurated and some people believe that it was the way she was savaged in the press they accused they they pictured her as this corn cob smoking woman. of course, they accused her being a bigamist and the press was so horrible. you know, she had a stroke and died before he took office and they they did the same thing to margaret taylor who was an educated woman and tried to portray her also as this corn cob that was sort of the stereotype of somebody from the west if you were in east coast occupant of dc and so mary went through some of that too that she wasn't quite dignified enough so some of her spending came from her wanting to fit in to this social milieu of washington dc and be acceptable as someone who was refined. but she was savaged in the press, but she also went to the the hospitals she would write for wounded soldiers. none of that really came out much at the time and then the support that she gave like i mentioned in our chapter on first ladies and civil rights where she was actually giving money to former slaves to help them live. and this was a type of thing. that didn't come out at that point in time where she needed to take a page out of julia tyler who was john tyler's second wife who hired a press agent. and made sure that certain articles were placed about her and what she was doing and mary just didn't get her positive story out as much as she needed to. well, let's move fully and squarely into the 20th century and again back to media and i'm thinking stacey of changes in visual media coming on yellow journalism. how does that affect first ladies at that early part of the 20th century you've written so extensively written on alice roosevelt longworth for example written on your latest book is on elizabeth arden, correct and how women i'm presuming present themselves. so and if you would like to weave in the fashion component one of our young colleagues talked at the pre lunch panel about her podcast that she gets young people interested in talking about the fashions of carolyn bessette and and they end up being interested in the in the new frontier. so how have first ladies as we get into the more visual side of the media and electronic media begin to have an impact in that way. frankie cleveland was the youngest first lady it's about 21 years old. and she was a kind of a celebrity herself partly her youth partly the interest in the relationship. she was married to a sitting president where she married grover cleveland and you know, she became her her face her name got put on advertisements. she could do nothing about it drove grover cleveland crazy that his wife was used in this way. but, you know wherever she went. she had crowds following her. there's tremendous interest among the american people in frankie, cleveland. and so, you know, this isn't too far ahead in into the 20th century as we moved to the 20th century, but you know eda throws well by the time we get to that point. edith roosevelt was very protective of her family of her children. she loathed what she referred to as camera fiends. didn't didn't want the the photographers around and had post pictures of all the children taken so that they could be released when the newspapers wanted them. she really did not want her children and again, the protection of one's children is another through line that goes all the way from the very beginning to today. you know, melania trump didn't want to move into the white house until barron had finished his schooling up there. so, so the the newspapers the vast increase in the number and types of newspapers published at the end of the 19th century into the 20th century is part of it many more sort of photographic sections in newspapers and then the women's magazines in particulars. they came out began to feature first ladies and much of what they said was true in a good bit was not first ladies tended not to give interviews to journalists of any sort and when they did they did not want to be quoted partly. that was a fear of saying something that would detract from their husbands. program or his presidency in some way, but it was very clear very early on back to dr. august era that the arab study that the first lady was a phenomenal interest to people so trying to keep the camera fiends away was almost a no-hoper. yeah, and i mean we have to look at those again these one of the things women's history has done for us is brought new topics into what quote what is history including things like fashion and sociability and it's important whenever it's a first lady it's never personal. it is always got a policy component. so dolly madison is very sort of authentic personality became a tool of policy for james madison, and she also used fashion and my form of the media because the media at the time didn't do things like you're talking about we're observers, so i would when i was researching dolly madison, i was terribly interested in her outfits and and people's reaction to her and everybody wrote about her. so if you went to one of these parties you saw on the street you wrote home about it, and i enjoyed all of reading all of these descriptions of the outfits and the way she was with people and then i realized that these were not just celebrity mentions that these were actually a form of political analysis because they were looking at her and evaluating her is whether she was the of the right. ruling class. is this a proper person and one of the things that dolly did is she wrote that line that i sort of mentioned between, you know republican virtue exemplified by james madison who was such a non-entity that he got lost in his own parties. and queen dolly who swanned around and fantastical outfits. so she was dolly madison was not a well-dressed woman of fashion. she also did not dress like a real queen in europe. i don't think she knew what that was. she dressed like what americans would imagine a queen would be so fabulous materials, and yes the turbines with the feathers so that when she's walking around that room and the white house, you know, where she is everywhere she goes and and in fact these outfits which were almost like the colors and the -- they were kind of crazy. they unlike a real queen's outfit. she could move quite freely because she needed to come out she needed to connect and she needed to touch and people are writing about this and writing about this and and you understand that this is again not just as what what was she wearing? you know, it was trying to evaluate who this person was and for the most part though dolly had her haters too. so i have to run. yes. she did. she got it right people were very satisfied that they were they had their own. and that was queen dolly democratic queen, but a queen dolly part of mrs. lincoln's problem was as diana said the country is at war so she spent too much under clothing then she was criticized for that every first lady going way back to martha washington has had to walk a fine line between saying i my white house will reflect the best of europe we will be and we will be a washington dc that fits in with every european capital and you can see this in the way that the white house is the the interior designs and you can see in the way dress for example. and on the other side, there are first ladies who had to say no that we are going to showcase the best of american art and culture and and i am not going to dress like i were, you know a european queen so you think about mrs. carter, for example, i'm really skipping ahead now, but rosalyn carter made a virtue in addressing like the everyday woman back up to edith roosevelt who felt this? keenly edith roseville was not particularly a fashion plate and she and her daughter got very good at sending out different slightly different descriptions of the exact same dress to the press. so to find that fine line between being criticized for spending too much money and not spending enough money someone once said of edith, roseville. something like either throws out says she dressed on three hundred dollars a year and she looks it. fine line very difficult to find that middle ground and we can think of the more recent first ladies and my favorite jacqueline kennedy during the campaign and we now think of her as this beautiful fashion icon, but during the campaign of 1960. she was being criticized. she says in our oral history the things that used to be viewed as a handicapped to my husband. they said because i spoke french or because i dressed in a beautiful way that that was detracting from my husband then she said when i became first lady then that seemed to help but during the campaign she was it was quoted in the paper that someone said she spent $30,000 right a year on on her clothing and she fired back and she said, oh i couldn't spend that much if i were sable underwear, and so she she took it nancy reagan, of course ran into this she was being her loaned beautiful designer gowns for events at the white house and other events and then there was a criticism of was she paying for those or not and when it came out that perhaps she was not pain and not just having them loan to her, but she was keeping them in her closet. so you might remember at the white house correspondence dinners. she did that great send-up of herself where she dressed like carol burnett's char woman and and sent came out into the tune of secondhand rose and i'm wearing second hand clothes. i'm wearing second and close and she brought the house down and and if if you are being attacked and you can make fun of yourself or poke fun at yourself, that's a lesson, of course to be learned. let's talk about some other technological changes. that would have changed the role of first lady and that is as travel became more of an opportunity and ease or ease of travel. so the railroads come into being and then obviously planes about all of the first ladies that you know, and you've studied and what travel then actually contributed to their own work and to the work of their husbands. well, the pokes did a trip down to the south. and sarah polk went with him. and this was one of the early opportunities for a woman to be beside her husband someplace outside of washington. you know, this was the thing if anyone knew about the first ladies outside of the washington area, it was either in their home state or from what they were reading in the press and so with train travel it then gave the wives an opportunity to travel with the husbands, so they had a very successful run down. through several states and that i think was important for some of her image. the clevelands traveled together there were several others garfields so early on after the train, you know, the lincolns came. from illinois to washington on a train from springfield and had stops all along the way so people got to see the first lady before inauguration. so it really was important beginning to travel around the country is around the country so citizens who won't normally be able to be in washington get a sense of who the first family is and mrs. wilson went abroad than with withrow wilson the second mrs. wilson, correct? yes the war. yes, and just before that. this is a another topic that that comes together first lady scholars tend to look at when did first ladies begin to campaign with their husbands? and so these opportunities to with the husband? began to overlap with campaigning some wives went either throws out went for example on trips when he was campaigning not even always for himself and in part to see what he did, you know, so it was useful first ladies or potential first ladies to see how their husbands interacted with the public. so edith. well the second mrs. wilson. ellen wilson was woodrow wilson's first wife and she died in the white house. so when president wilson remarried his second wife edith went abroad with him during the time. he was negotiating the treaty of versa to conclude world war one. and this was a very important moment for her to see her husband acclaimed essentially as the savior of the of the war. so that was that was an important step forward. but even your closer to your eras the lady bird johnson and the whistle stop. yes in the whistles up you and yeah, so even in the era of plane travel you of course had truman doing the the whistle stop and then ladybird in 64 as i mentioned, which was an incredibly important trip in that gave her a chance to travel and to begin seeing that it was okay for women to to campaign for their husbands to be surrogates. you know, that's one thing we haven't really talked about yet. is this whole surrogate ocean and how the wife can do a lot to restore a president's image and you mentioned frankie cleveland who became francis cleveland after she married you don't know he had been her father was his law partner and her father died when she was very young and he was her ward essentially and everyone thought he was going to marry her mother. and she did a tour of europe after she graduated from college and there were all these rumors and they she came back from her european tour and he buries the daughter instead of the mother. so everyone was enthralled but if you remember also grover cleveland mama, where's my paw gone to the white house? hahaha. so by marrying frankie cleveland, he really had a redemption of his image and then when he came in for a second term, they had they be ruth the candy bars named after they now have a young child and they had just and the first child born in the white house was the cleveland's second daughter. so it was a rehabilitation of grover cleveland's image by marrying francis, and she even had to make some public statements. there were rumors that he was abusive and so she went on record publicly about what a great husband he was and on and on and so people saw change in him. and so there was a very different grover cleveland as a result. and women, you know betty ford vote for betty's husband because everybody loved betty ford, and we've seen more and more of that that the wives often have higher ratings than the husbands and i don't think of that as surrogate in the sense of a substitute. i think it's an addition. so sea mart seymour martin lipset had a who's a political scientist at a category called the charismatic figure and he was talking about george washington that way and dolly madison really pioneered this role, which is that you could be this carrier of your husband's message. you could be a larger than life entity that had good and bad things because you could also be a but you could be imparting messages of authority and legitimacy of reassurance of americanness of modernity the way jacqueline kennedy did and michelle obama, so it's like an extension a personification of your husband's message. yeah. so lazy bird did that really well with great society programs extremely well, and another change that happens to get back to your question barbara earlier along these lines is women who open up the role of the first lady by opening simultaneously opening up the white house to the people. i'm thinking about women who were more forthcoming about their health. i mean, you know mrs. ford betty ford is our probably our best example, but she's not the first one who was less private about her health concerns and so shared with with the american people what was going on before before then there was a lot of health concerns hidden both of the president and the first lady and when betty ford allowed americans to learn about her breast cancer, this is something that we can actually put a number two. we know for a fact that in this way. i think betty ford saved, who knows how many lives because women went and got mammograms after this happened and she was it was a kind of bravery. it's hard to reimagine. although some of you will know at that time. we didn't even say the word cancer let alone the word breath, you know, so this is the first lady going beyond what her husband had originally imagined right and as you say can be quantified indeed last point speaking of being open and opened up we would like you to come to the microphones and ask your questions now and while you're thinking of those just a last point about travel by first ladies, it's exactly 60 years ago this month that mrs. kennedy undertook her trip to pakistan and india by herself did not that is did not go with the and and those two countries are always a bit tense and certainly during the cold war. she did take her sister lee reds will but they had a really charming and and wonderful trip and that is that concept of diplomacy and carrying the image of the country in the cold war when we were trying to tell those countries. we called them then third world that we would say developing but we were trying to get them to our side so they wouldn't join in the the communist side or the soviet sphere the chinese sphere and she was able to present the country abroad and certainly at home. so with that let me bring my friend and thank you, dr. perry. you can take this as broadly or as narrowly as you desire but in your opinion, which first lady singular or i guess couple first ladies plural wielded the most power during their time in the white house. so the question i think most first ladies scholars would come up with would be edith wilson, right? i the answer rather. no, dr. august looked at me like maybe not. i'm pondering and that was such a tricky question. very good. very good. lawyer that was why that was tricky. there you go. woodrow wilson was in terrible health throughout most of his life in fact, and we look back on this now and we see the perhaps he was having. many strokes as it were during his marriage to his first wife. so the the terrible health problems. he had during his second marriage that led up to his paralysis and his inability real well separate process inability to conduct the business estate. i think is is probably what leads to the answer of edith wilson, and she i think edith wilson also because she becomes the the example of what not to do is first lady edith wilson overstepped bounds. she she decided when when president wilson was so ill she made several decisions about him that resulted in her. not exactly running the country, but she certainly misled the american people. she decided not to tell him the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the cabinet the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the american people the extent it was ill health. she decided that he should not step down. although there was no we didn't have a requirement for that and the vice president was widely seen as week or inconsequential and she continued to insist that he would be able to continue to be service president. she decided which mail he would see she decided which people would come to him. she decided which topics he should take up. she determined the timing of all this and this is all happening in the context of trying to bring a conclusion to world war one. so edith wilson is the is the person that we look back to and say you step too far and and we see this because even during nancy reagan's time when they were intimations that nancy reagan was was too powerful wore the pants in the reagan family too many times journalists at the time called upon edith wilson and suggested in nancy reagan that she was going to make a misstep akin to mrs. wilson's there are many other i mean many many many first ladies who are very powerful, but i think that the answer would probably start with edith wilson. all right, so i'm gonna make this case i knew she would i'm gonna do it. so it's the end of of the war of 1812. been in this war nothing this is the war that shouldn't have even ended before began. they conceded the british conceded don't made me explain it they conceited but we had the war anyway, and at the end of it loss of treasure lives. nothing gained capital burned to the ground. and yet the celebrations of this war this is right at the end of madison the madison presidency and james and dolly go off and a golden glow. in fact, they can't leave town after the inauguration because people just want to give them parties and everybody is celebrating this warm. it's making the americans outbreak gallatin said feel more american than ever. they're jumping with joy. how did that happen? and i would say that it was dolly madison's efforts during the war of 1812 to unify the capital unify the country emerge as the savior of washington city as one of the early stories that just made americans feel pretty darn good about this. and that really was the era of good feelings. i don't have convinced you. i'd go ahead. yeah, i'd put in a plug also for sarah poke and amy greenberg's biography of her is outstanding. i highly recommend it. it's a lady first is the title, but she was essentially the chief of staff. she you know, he as i said had health issues and she was perceived by many as very powerful. she was very savvy she knew how to work her way around washington and followed a lot of the dolly madison getting the right people together. both people on both sides of the aisle respected her, but she would read the newspapers every morning and give him a summary. she worked on his speeches when he was running for governor of tennessee. she was back in his second campaign when he was incumbent governor. she was essentially watching over the governorship while he campaigned and she took a lot of that same practice to the white house so she would give him far more advice and he'd listen to her advice more than some of his cabinet officials. and so she and when she was accused of being too powerful or controlling him, she would essentially say, you know, i'm saving his health she also managed his schedule to try to once again save his energy and so this would be i'm just being a good wife. so she used that domestic sphere as her defense that i'm just looking out for his well-being so that he can be president and do the right things and that was how she deflected some of the criticism but she was essentially a chief of staff to him grace coolidge was much beloved by the american people in large measure because she was a very traditional wife who dressed very well was a very good mother suffered the grief of a death of a child in the white house, but one of the reasons that people like grace college so much is because three first ladies who came before her or why they considered to have had a little too much power. so edith wilson and helen here in taft and florence harding all very powerful first ladies. so grace benefited from that. there is a blowback though, isn't there on this accountability and mike dean elected for the first ladies who come after a first lady who's perceived his powerful whether they want to cut back or not. i think they feel the pressure from the public to do that. we have a question here. yes, i've heard edith wilson referred to as our first female president, and i'm also surprised in this discussion that you haven't mentioned eleanor roosevelt, but that's not my question. my question is political writers and pundits are very free about ranking our best president in our worst presidents, and i wonder if you would go so far as to maybe talk about who are our good first. ladies and who were our worst and i know a lot of people get that. they're not elected. they're thrust into the position and some people rise to the occasion and some don't but i just wonder if you would be involved in ranking or judge that this audience likes trouble. it's a project to work on to be sure i didn't want to take the chairs prerogative, but i will speak about eleanor roosevelt. anyone here from hyde park. well, i'll tell you another site story. then my upcoming book will be on the political relationship between john kennedy and eleanor roosevelt. and we could have a discussion on the power of first ladies after they leave the white house because so many of them had continuing power or maybe even more power but after they left the white house and certainly eleanor roosevelt would fall into a category such as that, but she was was let's put it this way very influential on our topic today if for no other reasons the longevity of her time in the white house because of her husband's 12 years there, but i became interested in this particular topic at the site at the hyde park side. i had not been there until 2010 and of course i went through the main house where fdr was born and i didn't i didn't realize i had a personal relationship with him as i have felt with president kennedy because of my mother taking me to see him and yet i had all these stories that had collected from my parents and my aunts and uncles about coming along in the depression and what fdr and eleanor roosevelt meant to them. and so the ranger the park ranger was taking us through the mansion and we turned a corner and he said this is the room where franklin roosevelt was born and i burst into tears a very embarrassing to my friend who was accompanying me because i was sobbing on his shoulder, but then we went to val kill to see mrs. roosevelt's home that she had built in part to have her own life and let's face it to get away from her domineering mother-in-law and i saw this picture of president kennedy then candidate kennedy coming out of the valquil living room eleanor lead in the way with these brilliant bright smiles and yet i knew they had a problematic relationship politically and so i wanted to study that so that will be my next book, but certainly you would have to put her at or near the top in terms of influential not only again during her first ladyship all of the work that she did in so many fields you've already mentioned we did mention her. relation for example to civil rights. she was always telling her husband, you know, please get the anti-linching bill through congress and yet we have to say we've said sort of the negative of they're not being elected and accountable but in some ways that was a problem fdr was saying look i have to run and i also have to keep on my side the two-thirds of the senate and the house who are southern democrats and in order to get my new deal legislation pass through i can't put them off by supporting the anti lynching bill. so sometimes the first ladies have that advantage of not having to worry about being on the ballot and then sometimes they can't do what they want because they're not on the ballot. but anyway, we'd have to put her up there and then to have led as our really our in some ways our first ambassador to the united nations when it was founded after husband's death after the war after world war two the declaration of human rights the universal declaration of human rights and then i'll give her a out because in a way she helped jack kennedy be elected because they buried the hatchet at a lunch at valkil in august of 1960 and they didn't bury it in each other. so they yeah they came to common ground as we talked about last night at the at the wonderful panel, you know, can we not find common ground those were two people in the same party, but had very different backgrounds and very different views and they found common ground and worked with each other and by the way again given that we're in the women's history month president kennedy named mrs. roosevelt to chair his president's commission on the status of women, and that led to having similar commissions on women's rights in the status of women in every one of the 50 states and eventually led to the founding of the national organization of women and what we consider to be the modern feminist movement and eleanor in response to the ranking eleanor on most of the polls that have been taking is number one and we'll stay there and i think the reason we mentioned her as one of the powerful first ladies. i think we were thinking of it more in terms of directing the president or like you said usurping wilson, but she redefined what a first lady could be. and that's why i think she's up there at the top. she was the first really activist first lady. she showed how she could go out and really promote what her husband was doing. she was his eyes his legs his ears and so in that sense, it wasn't her own agenda. she was really furthering his and providing him with that feedback from around the country that he couldn't personally get because of his physical limitations and i think i think you brought this up, but we're successfully avoiding her questions. so we have heard it. we are now sidestepping it but i do i do think looking at what a first lady does afterwards because they sometimes wake up to their power and i would include mrs. laura bush in that and incredibly active post first lady lady. yeah, yes. i mean so there we go. we'll be seen her this evening, right? yes next question. thank you very much for all of your insight when i think about the influence that first lady may have i think about the resources that the first lady may need to make that influence. so, can you talk about how the the budget for the first lady has involved over the years? we yes, we may need to call it in here. maybe it's there isn't one there. hadn't been one or even office space or anything else like that. you know, the east wing is a relatively new phenomenon within the white house from a physical space edith roosevelt was the first to actually hire someone to work for her and then for many years they were conscripting people from other departments to help out and agencies, but you know people are shocked when i i do a lot of public lectures on first ladies for both students and other groups and they're all they say. well, how much does the first lady get paid, you know zero and and they're stunned. it's like well, but it's a full-time job. yes, either throws about higher the first social secretary, but she did. pay for the caterers out of her own pocket. you know, what, would you rather do right the letters or make the meals? anita would be a wonderful person to talk to you about that the money actually she'd be our best expert. yeah. hi, thank you so much for this discussion this afternoon. it's my understanding that eleanor roosevelt. really didn't enjoy the public eye at first and somewhat struggled with. with having that that public persona and getting involved, but then she she really made a breakthrough and became one of our most remembered first ladies. my question is are there other first ladies who had a similar struggle like that and then made that breakthrough and were able to make some really important. changes in their experience well, there were several who? had at least many years before the presidency to take care of some of that both bushes. i think laura bush did not expect to be married to a politician and barbara bush was terrified of public speaking and the way she developed on the communication person. so i really study a lot about what they do with their public speaking, but she she would do slide shows when she would go back to texas. she would take her children around all the monuments when he was in congress, and she developed her public speaking skills from doing slideshows back in texas so that she had a crutch and they were looking at her lady bird johnson sabotage being valedictorian of her high school graduating class. she purposely got a bee in a class so that she wouldn't be so she wouldn't have to give a speech. and she took a public speaking course with a group of other senate wives and that was how she got over it and she wasn't excited when she married linden. i mean many of these women came into this reluctantly but then saw because they had a public service commitment that this was something that was very important to the country and that they could make a real contribution. so they overcame fears of public speaking they overcame, you know the fear of being out there in the public is all in a roosevelt and so many of the other ones did but it's really more common. we had a few wives actually prayed mrs. pierce that her husband wouldn't win because she didn't want to get involved in most first ladies said they didn't want to be first lady and and some of them that were sort of duped along the way it was joe biden who said to jill nothing will change nothing will change for you when you marry me and of course eleanor roosevelt, i think we could say started out as an introvert. but she had to become available to be her husband's legs when polio afflicted him in the early 20s. and so that's when she started really going out to speak in that case for him or keep his name out in public and really took lessons from louis howe his his great political advisor and then because she had done that she actually took public speaking lessons. she began writing to president kennedy once he was in the white house and told him he needed to see a public speech expert to improve his public speaking. what did ted sorensen i don't think she can play she didn't complain about the speech content. she wrote a very complimentary note about his inaugural address, but later on she said you do need your throat is too tight. hello. my name is jill scotty, and i'm the superintendent of jimmy carter national historical park. thank you and i want to say something that i say about 10 times a day mrs. carter's name is pronounced rosalyn. she's named after her aunt lynn and her cousin rose and i always tell people remember rose garden rosalind, so wanted to just make that clear. thank you. thank you. well, thank you very much barbara if you would allow me to say something in the minute we have left. yes have one minute and catherine wishes to speak. um, it's been this has been wonderful and i've done several of these programs for the white house historical association, and i've been in the first lady game about 25 years and what's been amazing for me is to see how it's grown as a field of study. it started to be an almost like compulsive focus on biography and it really wasn't clear really why you should care about a particular first lady. some of them were fascinating some of them weren't none of them plan to be first lady pretty much and it's grown from that to actually being an intellectually sophisticated category of analysis. we're looking at first ladies. tell us something about women about power about american. tree and the white house historical association has played such a large part in that and it shouldn't be surprising. it was founded by our first lady, but the truth is understood there has been a real focus on first lady studies taking it seriously obviously having anita mcbride as the leadership in the organization has sharpened that and it has been my pleasure to sit with these women and other women over the years and watch this field grow. you've mentioned flair and flair which tell us what is this again? first lady is association for research and education. it's brand fairly brand new and it really i would say it is that it is the child of the white house historical association's focus on first lady, so i just want to thank you anita and stuart wherever you are, but thank you so much. thank you. thank you.
of introducing what many people consider? the brightest jewels in the crown of a first lady historians of america, so starting with dr. barbara perry. and while dr. perry is walking up here. it should be noted that she just came out today with an article. in the publication the hill on first ladies in war and as as barbara said she she was inspired by the association. and she is the gerald bayless professor and director of presidential studies the university of virginia's miller center. and currently serves on the board which we are very honored the board of directors of the white house historical association. joining her on stage our panelist. dr. diana carlin professor emerit of communications and many have called her the queen of communications at saint louis university and then we have dr. catherine al gore who made a very fabulous statement earlier today in the session the president of the massachusetts historical society. and dr. stacy cordary, which i understand is a british way to pronounce it and she is dennis and didn't denison von johnson endowed chair of theodore roosevelt honors leadership studies at dickinson state university. this is an incredible panel and as stuart has always advised us. we have a responsibility here. to inspire to encourage and to teach and i think with this panel you will get an abundance of material. thank you so much. well, welcome everyone to this panel on first ladies. thank you teresa for that very nice introduction. thank you to stuart and to anita for this amazing summit here in dallas that we've all been waiting. so to participate in and attend and to be in person you and the team at the white house historical association have done amazing work as you always do and many thanks to my colleagues here all of who's work has inspired mine over the years. so i'm very grateful to them. so as teresa said we're going to be looking at first ladies today and thinking about their influence on their president husbands. we're going to be thinking about when they promote change and sometimes we talked about when they have not been in favor of change which we can decide might be a good or a bad thing. let me start i'd like the last panel when we said let's do a flash poll. how many of you either work in the field the first ladies or where you work has some connection with first ladies or you just are a first lady aficionado. let's see a show of hands great. well, this is super we welcome you all and and for those of you who don't we hope to spread the word about first ladies and flare particularly as well as the white house historical association all of its good work in this field. so we wanted to start with a pretty basic question and that is how did the position of first ladies come to be? that's not in the constitution as the presidential position is an offices and it's an unelected position as we know. so how did it start and i'm going to turn to my first two colleagues to my left here to diana who is writing a book about all first ladies a textbook and you might tell us a little bit about that today and we want to start with the very first first ladies, and i also want to turn as well to catherine al gore because she's a specialist on the founding first ladies as well in particularly dolly madison, so let me turn to diana first. well, i don't think you can really study the presidency without studying the first ladies now, i'm biased but i believe that and it really started because this has been a partnership from the beginning. when martha washington arrived in new york a couple months after the president had arrived she was greeted with by the president in a barge. he then in new jersey wrote her over to the shore in new york. she was greeted with a gun salute and people were yelling long live lady washington and when she arrived she found out she already had a schedule. they they realize that because our president is both head of government and head of state that there would be events that needed to be planned with dignitaries that he needed to have these members of congress there and that they needed to host them and so nobody was better than martha at that because she'd been doing it for years. so she had a schedule she had restrictions and so it was a two-person career from the very beginning and she had abigail at her side and let catherine talk a little bit more about that. but martha definitely understood the concept of soft power. and that has been something that has been a trend for first ladies to use all the way through since the beginning. so the beginning was that martha really was a partner as she had been with the president all through their marriage and through his years during the revolutionary war where she would go to the camps the winter camps every year and would assist him and try to keep morell up and organize sewing circles and that type of thing, but it was a partnership it still is and so the two go together. she was not called first lady that didn't really happen until later in the 19th century. she was called lady washington, which was the term that was given to her by some of the revolutionary war soldiers. they even had a lady washington's brigade and that was sort of the vestige of the british past that she was also an example of what a southern lady would be. so that was the beginning. i just think it's really striking. so in other venues, i've actually said the dolly madison was the first first lady and i'm prepared found that but the truth is you're right right from the beginning martha washington is getting the message. but what's also true again? there's an intentionality from her so she begins dressing a certain way and she along with george washington and alexander hamilton. maybe john jay. they start communicating about the kinds of ceremonies. that would be proper for a new republic. because of course at that time they got a real tight kind of like lane to stay in. the american colonists had rebelled against the monarchy they were going to create the world anew the world turned upside down antimonarchical anti-king anti-royalties all going to be new. except when it came to ruling they realized that the only vocabulary of power they had was monarchical and aristotle and so how are they going to cut that and so we have these moments in the historical record where george washington is wondering exactly how many pairs of matched horses is enough to convey his authority pulling his carriage the and how much would be like too much? i think the answer was three pair but the same thing with martha, how would she dress that would convey a sense to the outsiders who are not sure this america thing was going to work and the new americans who are not sure this american thing was going to work that they were being ruled properly and well and they came up with ceremonies that tried to combine a kind of almost democratic energy. i think with you know, some some kind of vestige of royalty and that's why i think lady washington and dolly madison is going to be lady, but she's else would be queen dolly. yes. yes. so thoughts about we can't leave the founding. we've certainly need to get to more of dolly madison. but abigail adams, we always cite her letter to her husband about the constitutional convention about don't forget the ladies when they were putting together the constitution but of course in a way they did but any thoughts about abigail and and john adams and and moving into the white house. well, yes, and there are the first couple to move into the white house. nobody stayed terribly long. they weren't impressed. i think abigail in some ways embodies another part of the partnership that diana is talking about she really wasn't interested in what they would call presiding. so she adopted martha's innovations and ceremonies rather dutifully, but the role that abigail played was really that of advisor. she really was her husband's closest. sir, and in the spirit of republican virtue, that's small our republican virtue john adams made the terrible decision not to change his cabinet. so he ended up the cabinet full of let's just called them traders all working behind his back so he would have always relied on abigail but in that particular circumstance, she really was his very closest advisor and that's fascinating that you're mentioning that catherine because really coming up to modern first ladies and contemporary first ladies in terms of personnel issues. we know for example that nancy reagan so important on issues of personnel never afraid to tell her husband that person should go that person's not good for you. so it clearly starts at the very beginning in that kind of advisory capacity. so before we come back to dolly, let me turn to my colleague stacy and we did a panel some months ago in the midst of the pandemic when we were always online and doing these great panels for the white house historical associ. and for flair and stacy came up with a set of i guess you would call them roadmaps or criteria. just how do we know if a first lady is being influential? how do we know that at the time if we do know it what are some of the sign posts that we might see and then afterwards how do we know what what are some of the signals that a first is being influential? well, these are many of these go back to the very earliest first ladies as you two have discussed. and some of it is common sensical did has she achieved what she said she would achieve in some cases and on the other end of the scale as we have the sienna first ladies poll. so just like we take a sounding of what americans think about how well they're presidents succeeding. how weird is the first lady stand in that as well? we look at how her relationship with her husband seems to succeed or fail how any cause she might espouse supports her husband's programs. there are a number of ways that we i think try to decide what whether first lady successful or not. it gets tricky when you try to really put a number on it because so many of these causes are causes that are continued from first lady who proceeded them and and sometimes the the country changes so much that that causes get abandoned because something else comes in their place. well, it seems to me that one of the things that we mentioned about martha washington. and again, we'll lead us into dolly is the concept of soft power and i am a pseudo historian. i'm really trained as a political scientist. so we like to think in terms of power and how power is used and defining power and typically political scientists and others. will define soft power as diplomatic power diplomacy cultural exchanges, and we know that first ladies certainly have excelled at that. so let's think in those terms in lynn. let's turn to dolly in that you called it catherine when we were first talking this unofficial role because again, this is a position that that is given to this woman. who's the spouse of the president simply because she's the spouse of the president. yeah, and i mean i at some point somebody's going to ask the very rude question. why should we care about first lady and one of the things is that by studying first ladies the same way studying women their words their work their lives. we learn things we would not have known about and it cannot just be a record of contributions but constitutions and that it can change the narrative and maybe one of the things that's going to do for you political scientists. is to change that word soft power which sounds soft and not powerful because it may be this thing. we're calling soft power might be the power studying first. ladies brings out the study of the every day for instance the power of the everyday the power of material in different ways. so to address your question quite directly and using the roadmap you gave us she's good on this one james madison's major issue that he had to solve was the question of unity. this was alluded to i think earlier in the day, but this was the time when the united states of america was referred to in the plural. the united states are right because nobody was sure this republican experiment was going to hold nobody the outsiders from europe looking with john just die and the people the new americans themselves. and james madison believed in unity, and he believed and he worried because he didn't think that enough unified the cold-blooded new englanders and the hot blooded virginians and he saw this group of people who were so very different and he said, you know, we don't have what he called veneration but history like we don't even have history. we don't have blood. we barely have a language and sometimes it will shake yet that we all understood each other, but we had to have unity so in theory, he understood unity. he didn't have the appetite, but if you think of it in that way and then you look at all the dolly madison did in helping to found and cement washington dc is the capital and finally save it when you look at the parties where she brought people together in the room and made them behave. so they got to know each other's human beings. her role is the charismatic figure using her dress and her parties. all of that can be seen as fulfilling this role of unity and you might say unity which is an emotional or a psychological state is quote soft power but in the end, it's what got the united states of america into the singular through the war and off really often to democracy. and if you haven't read catherine's book on the madison's marriage, it's a it's a perfect union. correct the title. well, it's a perfect union because i do think james and dolly were perfectly matched different in a political but also proof union because as historians we always think what is the concatenation of person and circumstance and if the american revolution had never happened, i guess dolly would have just been a virginia gentry wife who through great parties by the way, but she rose to those circumstances and just to get back to you use the word unofficial and again, this is i think shows us something important when i studied earlier republic and and i did read a little blue signs. i figured out that for politics to happen. you need two spheres and one is official and one is unofficial and the officials fair you all know. it's the speeches and the legislator legislation and the peace treaties and all of that. it's the product of politics, but then there's got to be a process. there's got to be a place. where people can get together and they can propose things. they might not propose in the official spotlight the glare of the spotlight they have to be able to negotiate. they also have to get to know each other as human beings. and that is the unofficial sphere and because that takes place in people's homes, and it's social events women are disproportionately represented in that sphere, but you need both of those. and if somebody asked me, you know sometimes what's wrong with washington, which i don't like to come out on contemporary things. it's the lack of the unofficial sphere. there's no place where men and women can get together and understand that though you and i might have a very different idea of the public good. we do share a commitment to the public good and so again by studying first ladies, that's where you see the power of that and and and note the absence of it when when it's gone. right? well, i think the importance of dolly also is that she not only did this for her husband, but dolly then tutored several other first lady who came after her, you know after james madison died. she moved back to washington and she helped court a lot, but i think about sarah pope and you know james pope probably the most successful one-term president. we've had ran on four parts of a platform and accomplished all of them. he knew his health wasn't in great shape, so he didn't run for a second term, but sarah spent a lot of time learning from dolly. well, she really set the tone for i mean decades. yeah, eleanor roosevelt being the exception that proved the rule but mrs. kennedy, i love that. she didn't like the idea of redecorating the white house a lot of people say dolly redecorated the white house, but what she did was restructure it in a way that mrs. kennedy would have proved by this is amazing that before dolly's white house, which is called the executive mansion and it would only be during her tenure where it would get that familiar loving nickname the white house there was no place in the in the capital city where all the men of government could get together. let alone their families let alone visiting diplomats. let alone visiting americans let alone anybody it was so what dolly did was she took that executive mansion and she turned it in to a center for entertaining where everybody in town would show up and they did and she threw weekly parties and they were as regular and as grueling as they sound but they became an independent and indispensable part of the washington political machine. and it's in those parties. i can tend that these people learn to work together in a bipartisan ways going towards something they didn't even know is going to happen, which is that this one party republic was going to turn into a two-party democracy. you know, we're certainly still in in the earliest days of this office. but stacey focuses on the early 20th century first ladies, and so let's turn to her and thoughts about how the role had changed was it has it been changing. did it change did the civil war for example change it as we get closer than into the gilded age and then the 20th century before we talk about change. i think it's worth pointing out that what dr. algar has been describing is the consistent through the through the centuries. edith roosevelt for example provided a space where theodore roosevelt could meet together with booker t, washington that was not something it could have happened. just anywhere in washington dc, you know so that space that first ladies and first families in general have provided for gathering americans across the political divide as has been a crucial part of it. i think that's why in historical historians solidarity with dr. algo there unofficially the unofficial sphere is such an important term rather than i know political science and soft power, but that unofficial sphere is integral to the what the first lady has always done even down to today. so changes. well, there's a there are many changes and we can talk more about these but it has to do with the growth of a gender expectations the growth of women's activity in the world as we move through the century the civil war. it makes changes women's war work and then as we get towards the gilded age and moving into the progressive era that's sort of work that women do in the world. to move out of their domestic sphere which was the socially dictated acceptable place for women to be education and yeah, yep carry on there's met there's a million changes education is just one so certainly by the time you reach the first decade of 20th century and edith roosevelt helen taft. you have many solitaries, but many many differences, too. so well, i think just to defend my discipline. i think the reason why male political scientists focus on soft powers that they also focus on hard power and they want to make that distinction. of course, they view hard powers the military power and the economic sanctions all of which we're seeing now, but i think in this month of women's history, you know, we want to think certainly much more broadly beyond those two categories and when you mentioned women's history month, it's great that we're doing this now because i really think that if you look at the ark of american women's history, you have to look at first ladies. once again, we those of us who study first ladies say that they mirror society and women's roles and so went by studying those first ladies you get this little microcosm of what was happening. we talked about this division of spheres. but they also produce change and so that arc of history were the changes and so you begin to see the first ladies for instance who have an education who have a college education lucy hayes the first one you see where the first ladies were on suffrage. and interestingly you did not have them favoring suffrage at least not explicitly because politically it would not have been wise for some of them to have done that because the suffragists were basically viewed as radical extremely radical and then when you look at temperance was another issue that was also tied in with the suffrage movement later and all of these women were held up to a certain standard as to whether they were serving wine or hard liquor or nothing in the way of alcoholic drinks in the white house and that all played in with the movement. so it i really don't think you can separate first lady's history from american women's history. there's a paradox who that you're reminding me of which i think is also part of white women's history, which is this paradox if you had called dolly madison a feminist she would have been horrified first. you didn't confuse because nobody use that word, but she wouldn't horrified and and you would point out to her you'd say well mrs. madison, you know, you go get legislation passed for your you know constituency in virginia those revolutionary war pensions, and don't you get jobs for the sons of your friends and political supporters. that's called patronage mrs. madison, and she would say i am supporting my husband. so i'm supporting my husband and his goals and i'm not doing anything and that kind of denial of political intent or i guess political intent or ambition is so very typical, especially a middling and elite white women and you see it these women using they're very conservative positions to actually foster what we call radical change right they had access to power and if you look at the anti-suffrage movement, it was often very elite women whose husbands were powerful positions who have posted because they had a pathway to power and so some of these women did not thinking about all the other women who didn't you know, you mentioned the i'm actually writing it. nita mcbride and nancy keegan smith who's some of you know, who was at the national archives for many years. and the second chapter of our book we the first chapter we look at this whole notion of the evolution of the position including when the title came into play, but our second chapter is on first ladies and civil rights. and we put that at the front of the book because we wanted to once again show this arc of history through the women who were the first lady and so you start with martha washington who brought in slave servants to the homes in both, new york and philadelphia and in philadelphia, they were doing it pretty much they had to skirt the law if they had kept their enslaved servants there for more than six months. they were free. so they would send them back to mount vernon. and so there was this back and forth in order to evade this law. we had 10 families in the white house historical association because michelle obama brought that to their attention looked at slavery in the white house. so 10 different families had brought in slave servants and part of the reason some of them did it was that congress was so tight with the money for running the household and they had to use a lot of their own money. it was just they would bring their own enslaved servants with them to say, you know on the funds so we look in this chapter starting with martha washington and the contributions those early southern first ladies made to systemic racism. and then we get into. you know mary lincoln who has an african freed woman who is her dressmaker and she is giving money to the freed slaves who have come to the dc area and are living hand to mouth and she's taking her own money and supporting them then you get up to eleanor roosevelt. you know who did amazing things and was actually on a hit list by the ku klux klan they had a bounty on her head for what she was doing to promote civil rights and to bring the issue of lynching out lady bird johnson's incredible whistle stop tour after the civil rights act in 64. so we really and then of course we get historic michelle obama, and so we trace that history and look at where these women sort of fit in from these elite southern women. up to michelle obama and i think it's a good way for people to see this relationship between first ladies in history and the impact. and social history stacy, i think did you have your oh, i was just going to just on the topic of suffrage. there were small cadre of elite women in america, of course who did support suffrage but among elite women most of whom we can count the first ladies among. alice roosevelt longworth was a first daughter. once said i have more power around my dining room table then i have with one vote. yeah, that's a great kind of sum up that attitude. yeah. she also said if you can't say something nice come sit by me right didn't she have an embroidered pillow that said that on her couch, i love that. oh, can we circle back to mrs. lincoln? we don't want to quite park on the 20th 21st century, but some of you here know my personal story of how i became interested in the presidency in the white house's my dear mother took me to see john f kennedy campaigning and our hometown of louisville, kentucky in october of 1960. just one month before he was elected and i always start with that story because my mother was not a political scientist or historian. she was out in the suburbs of louisville raising baby boomer children, and but was very well read and and a wonderful grammarian and a champion speller and and but she just was drawn to him we're catholic he was the same generation. he was a world war two veteran is it was my father but the next memory i have a i think i was about six was being taken to hodgenville, kentucky to see lincoln's birthplace. so one one moment taken to see an almost president one from some time before and then a couple years later my dad took me out to the airport in louisville to see ex-president eisenhower come through and he was campaigning in the 1962 midterm. so came from a very bipartisan household, but i always say that when i went as age six to see the presidential side of the birthplace of abraham lincoln as a six-year-old. what made the biggest impact on me was the replica of the log cabin that they have there in the replica of the lincoln memorial and the next thing that made such an impact on me. they said this is a tree that was here when abraham lincoln was born and somehow just knowing that there was something living there from when he was born just made such an impact on me. so also as a native, kentucky and i have to think both about and mrs. lincoln, and we talked in one of the earlier panels, of course about all of us having to deal with different kinds of media, but she was really savaged in the media was she not during the civil war and so can we talk about that and and then maybe also get into the larger discussion of how first ladies have dealt with media and the changes in media. so i open that up to our group and i start with the dolly connection because this was her this was maybe a fatal decision on mary todd lincoln, by the way. i love that story because that really speaks to the power of place and person and sites presidential site absolutely and sites and the materiality of it and that's something else. we should have a whole another panel on but so i think this is true so mary todd lincoln try to make a sort of kinship connection with dolly madison because dolly had had a first husband john todd who perished in a yellow fever plague and the todd thing was the mary todd mary. lincoln dolly todd madison, okay. and so she tried to emulate dolly and so i meant it when i said dolly set the tone for first ladies for you know two centuries, but she was kind of tone deaf, right? like she threw parties in a war which dolly had done but that wars 1812 wars all happening out there, but the battlefield was like a mile away in virginia. i was just it was bad news, wasn't it? far be it for me to be a mary todd lincoln apologist, but it's worth noting before diana jumps into this because i can. see no first lady. ever gets it right. yeah some big portion of america says you're doing it completely wrong and it should be this way and the other half of america says you're just perfect darling. keep going. no. no first lady ever gets it, right and so mary todd lincoln had her supporters. she's certainly had a lot of detractors and even among his stories today who study here. there are first lady. i guess i would say first lady scholars of different backgrounds who would find mary todd lincoln a figure of tremendous pathos. yes. yes, definitely with a terror just a terrible terrible life and who didn't deserve nearly the criticism she got but she was sort of tone deaf about the parties and the dresses and the money she spent and even her own husband had to say, you know, mary you have to dial back some of this grief because remember the rest of the country's grieving as well. so she's again. i'm not going to be an apologist, but no first lady has ever had a hundred percent thumbs up from the country. well and the thing with mary lincoln too was that she did a lot of very good things she did but she didn't understand public relations as she probably should have she was savaged both in the northern press and the southern press because she was a kentuckyian some of her she came from she had a blended family because her mother had died when she was younger father remarried. she had half brothers who were fighting on behalf of confederacy. so some of the northerners considered her a traitor and of course the south considered her a traitor being married to abraham lincoln and and being the wife of the president so she really was never going to please everybody whether it was in the north or the south and and she was also a westerner. and this was something that other first ladies rachel jackson for example died before her husband was inaugurated and some people believe that it was the way she was savaged in the press they accused they they pictured her as this corn cob smoking woman. of course, they accused her being a bigamist and the press was so horrible. you know, she had a stroke and died before he took office and they they did the same thing to margaret taylor who was an educated woman and tried to portray her also as this corn cob that was sort of the stereotype of somebody from the west if you were in east coast occupant of dc and so mary went through some of that too that she wasn't quite dignified enough so some of her spending came from her wanting to fit in to this social milieu of washington dc and be acceptable as someone who was refined. but she was savaged in the press, but she also went to the the hospitals she would write for wounded soldiers. none of that really came out much at the time and then the support that she gave like i mentioned in our chapter on first ladies and civil rights where she was actually giving money to former slaves to help them live. and this was a type of thing. that didn't come out at that point in time where she needed to take a page out of julia tyler who was john tyler's second wife who hired a press agent. and made sure that certain articles were placed about her and what she was doing and mary just didn't get her positive story out as much as she needed to. well, let's move fully and squarely into the 20th century and again back to media and i'm thinking stacey of changes in visual media coming on yellow journalism. how does that affect first ladies at that early part of the 20th century you've written so extensively written on alice roosevelt longworth for example written on your latest book is on elizabeth arden, correct and how women i'm presuming present themselves. so and if you would like to weave in the fashion component one of our young colleagues talked at the pre lunch panel about her podcast that she gets young people interested in talking about the fashions of carolyn bessette and and they end up being interested in the in the new frontier. so how have first ladies as we get into the more visual side of the media and electronic media begin to have an impact in that way. frankie cleveland was the youngest first lady it's about 21 years old. and she was a kind of a celebrity herself partly her youth partly the interest in the relationship. she was married to a sitting president where she married grover cleveland and you know, she became her her face her name got put on advertisements. she could do nothing about it drove grover cleveland crazy that his wife was used in this way. but, you know wherever she went. she had crowds following her. there's tremendous interest among the american people in frankie, cleveland. and so, you know, this isn't too far ahead in into the 20th century as we moved to the 20th century, but you know eda throws well by the time we get to that point. edith roosevelt was very protective of her family of her children. she loathed what she referred to as camera fiends. didn't didn't want the the photographers around and had post pictures of all the children taken so that they could be released when the newspapers wanted them. she really did not want her children and again, the protection of one's children is another through line that goes all the way from the very beginning to today. you know, melania trump didn't want to move into the white house until barron had finished his schooling up there. so, so the the newspapers the vast increase in the number and types of newspapers published at the end of the 19th century into the 20th century is part of it many more sort of photographic sections in newspapers and then the women's magazines in particulars. they came out began to feature first ladies and much of what they said was true in a good bit was not first ladies tended not to give interviews to journalists of any sort and when they did they did not want to be quoted partly. that was a fear of saying something that would detract from their husbands. program or his presidency in some way, but it was very clear very early on back to dr. august era that the arab study that the first lady was a phenomenal interest to people so trying to keep the camera fiends away was almost a no-hoper. yeah, and i mean we have to look at those again these one of the things women's history has done for us is brought new topics into what quote what is history including things like fashion and sociability and it's important whenever it's a first lady it's never personal. it is always got a policy component. so dolly madison is very sort of authentic personality became a tool of policy for james madison, and she also used fashion and my form of the media because the media at the time didn't do things like you're talking about we're observers, so i would when i was researching dolly madison, i was terribly interested in her outfits and and people's reaction to her and everybody wrote about her. so if you went to one of these parties you saw on the street you wrote home about it, and i enjoyed all of reading all of these descriptions of the outfits and the way she was with people and then i realized that these were not just celebrity mentions that these were actually a form of political analysis because they were looking at her and evaluating her is whether she was the of the right. ruling class. is this a proper person and one of the things that dolly did is she wrote that line that i sort of mentioned between, you know republican virtue exemplified by james madison who was such a non-entity that he got lost in his own parties. and queen dolly who swanned around and fantastical outfits. so she was dolly madison was not a well-dressed woman of fashion. she also did not dress like a real queen in europe. i don't think she knew what that was. she dressed like what americans would imagine a queen would be so fabulous materials, and yes the turbines with the feathers so that when she's walking around that room and the white house, you know, where she is everywhere she goes and and in fact these outfits which were almost like the colors and the -- they were kind of crazy. they unlike a real queen's outfit. she could move quite freely because she needed to come out she needed to connect and she needed to touch and people are writing about this and writing about this and and you understand that this is again not just as what what was she wearing? you know, it was trying to evaluate who this person was and for the most part though dolly had her haters too. so i have to run. yes. she did. she got it right people were very satisfied that they were they had their own. and that was queen dolly democratic queen, but a queen dolly part of mrs. lincoln's problem was as diana said the country is at war so she spent too much under clothing then she was criticized for that every first lady going way back to martha washington has had to walk a fine line between saying i my white house will reflect the best of europe we will be and we will be a washington dc that fits in with every european capital and you can see this in the way that the white house is the the interior designs and you can see in the way dress for example. and on the other side, there are first ladies who had to say no the are going to showcase the best of american art and culture and and i am not going to dress like i were, you know a european queen so you think about mrs. carter, for example, i'm really skipping ahead now, but rosalyn carter made a virtue in addressing like the everyday woman back up to edith roosevelt who felt this? keenly edith roseville was not particularly a fashion plate and she and her daughter got very good at sending out different slightly different descriptions of the exact same dress to the press. so to find that fine line between being criticized for spending too much money and not spending enough money someone once said of edith, roseville. something like either throws out says she dressed on three hundred dollars a year and she looks it. fine line very difficult to find that middle ground and we can think of the more recent first ladies and my favorite jacqueline kennedy during the campaign and we now think of her as this beautiful fashion icon, but during the campaign of 1960. she was being criticized. she says in our oral history the things that used to be viewed as a handicapped to my husband. they said because i spoke french or because i dressed in a beautiful way that that was detracting from my husband then she said when i became first lady then that seemed to help but during the campaign she was it was quoted in the paper that someone said she spent $30,000 right a year on on her clothing and she fired back and she said, oh i couldn't spend that much if i were sable underwear, and so she she took it nancy reagan, of course ran into this she was being her loaned beautiful designer gowns for events at the white house and other events and then there was a criticism of was she paying for those or not and when it came out that perhaps she was not pain and not just having them loan to her, but she was keeping them in her closet. so you might remember at the white house correspondence dinners. she did that great send-up of herself where she dressed like carol burnett's char woman and and sent came out into the tune of secondhand rose and i'm wearing second hand clothes. i'm wearing second and close and she brought the house down and and if if you are being attacked and you can make fun of yourself or poke fun at yourself, that's a lesson, of course to be learned. let's talk about some other technological changes. that would have changed the role of first lady and that is as travel became more of an opportunity and ease or ease of travel. so the railroads come into being and then obviously planes about all of the first ladies that you know, and you've studied and what travel then actually contributed to their own work and to the work of their husbands. well, the pokes did a trip down to the south. and sarah polk went with him. and this was one of the early opportunities for a woman to be beside her husband someplace outside of washington. you know, this was the thing if anyone knew about the first ladies outside of the washington area, it was either in their home state or from what they were reading in the press and so with train travel it then gave the wives an opportunity to travel with the husbands, so they had a very successful run down. through several states and that i think was important for some of her image. the clevelands traveled together there were several others garfields so early on after the train, you know, the lincolns came. from illinois to washington on a train from springfield and had stops all along the way so people got to see the first lady before inauguration. so it really was important beginning to travel around the country is around the country so citizens who won't normally be able to be in washington get a sense of who the first family is and mrs. wilson went abroad than with withrow wilson the second mrs. wilson, correct? yes the war. yes, and just before that. this is a another topic that that comes together first lady scholars tend to look at when did first ladies begin to campaign with their husbands? and so these opportunities to with the husband? began to overlap with campaigning some wives went either throws out went for example on trips when he was campaigning not even always for himself and in part to see what he did, you know, so it was useful first ladies or potential first ladies to see how their husbands interacted with the public. so edith. well the second mrs. wilson. ellen wilson was woodrow wilson's first wife and she died in the white house. so when president wilson remarried his second wife edith went abroad with him during the time. he was negotiating the treaty of versa to conclude world war one. and this was a very important moment for her to see her husband acclaimed essentially as the savior of the of the war. so that was that was an important step forward. but even your closer to your eras the lady bird johnson and the whistle stop. yes in the whistles up you and yeah, so even in the era of plane travel you of course had truman doing the the whistle stop and then ladybird in 64 as i mentioned, which was an incredibly important trip in that gave her a chance to travel and to begin seeing that it was okay for women to to campaign for their husbands to be surrogates. you know, that's one thing we haven't really talked about yet. is this whole surrogate ocean and how the wife can do a lot to restore a president's image and you mentioned frankie cleveland who became francis cleveland after she married you don't know he had been her father was his law partner and her father died when she was very young and he was her ward essentially and everyone thought he was going to marry her mother. and she did a tour of europe after she graduated from college and there were all these rumors and they she came back from her european tour and he buries the daughter instead of the mother. so everyone was enthralled but if you remember also grover cleveland mama, where's my paw gone to the white house? hahaha. so by marrying frankie cleveland, he really had a redemption of his image and then when he came in for a second term, they had they be ruth the candy bars named after they now have a young child and they had just and the first child born in the white house was the cleveland's second daughter. so it was a rehabilitation of grover cleveland's image by marrying francis, and she even had to make some public statements. there were rumors that he was abusive and so she went on record publicly about what a great husband he was and on and on and so people saw change in him. and so there was a very different grover cleveland as a result. and women, you know betty ford vote for betty's husband because everybody loved betty ford, and we've seen more and more of that that the wives often have higher ratings than the husbands and i don't think of that as surrogate in the sense of a substitute. i think it's an addition. so sea mart seymour martin lipset had a who's a political scientist at a category called the charismatic figure and he was talking about george washington that way and dolly madison really pioneered this role, which is that you could be this carrier of your husband's message. you could be a larger than life entity that had good and bad things because you could also be a but you could be imparting messages of authority and legitimacy of reassurance of americanness of modernity the way jacqueline kennedy did and michelle obama, so it's like an extension a personification of your husband's message. yeah. so lazy bird did that really well with great society programs extremely well, and another change that happens to get back to your question barbara earlier along these lines is women who open up the role of the first lady by opening simultaneously opening up the white house to the people. i'm thinking about women who were more forthcoming about their health. i mean, you know mrs. ford betty ford is our probably our best example, but she's not the first one who was less private about her health concerns and so shared with with the american people what was going on before before then there was a lot of health concerns hidden both of the president and the first lady and when betty ford allowed americans to learn about her breast cancer, this is something that we can actually put a number two. we know for a fact that in this way. i think betty ford saved, who knows how many lives because women went and got mammograms after this happened and she was it was a kind of bravery. it's hard to reimagine. although some of you will know at that time. we didn't even say the word cancer let alone the word breath, you know, so this is the first lady going beyond what her husband had originally imagined right and as you say can be quantified indeed last point speaking of being open and opened up we would like you to come to the microphones and ask your questions now and while you're thinking of those just a last point about travel by first ladies, it's exactly 60 years ago this month that mrs. kennedy undertook her trip to pakistan and india by herself did not that is did not go with the and and those two countries are always a bit tense and certainly during the cold war. she did take her sister lee reds will but they had a really charming and and wonderful trip and that is that concept of diplomacy and carrying the image of the country in the cold war when we were trying to tell those countries. we called them then third world that we would say developing but we were trying to get them to our side so they wouldn't join in the the communist side or the soviet sphere the chinese sphere and she was able to present the country abroad and certainly at home. so with that let me bring my friend and thank you, dr. perry. you can take this as broadly or as narrowly as you desire but in your opinion, which first lady singular or i guess couple first ladies plural wielded the most power during their time in the white house. so the question i think most first ladies scholars would come up with would be edith wilson, right? i the answer rather. no, dr. august looked at me like maybe not. i'm pondering and that was such a tricky question. very good. very good. lawyer that was why that was tricky. there you go. woodrow wilson was in terrible health throughout most of his life in fact, and we look back on this now and we see the perhaps he was having. many strokes as it were during his marriage to his first wife. so the the terrible health problems. he had during his second marriage that led up to his paralysis and his inability real well separate process inability to conduct the business estate. i think is is probably what leads to the answer of edith wilson, and she i think edith wilson also because she becomes the the example of what not to do is first lady edith wilson overstepped bounds. she she decided when when president wilson was so ill she made several decisions about him that resulted in her. not exactly running the country, but she certainly misled the american people. she decided not to tell him the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the cabinet the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the american people the extent it was ill health. she decided that he should not step down. although there was no we didn't have a requirement for that and the vice president was widely seen as week or inconsequential and she continued to insist that he would be able to continue to be service president. she decided which mail he would see she decided which people would come to him. she decided which topics he should take up. she determined the timing of all this and this is all happening in the context of trying to bring a conclusion to world war one. so edith wilson is the is the person that we look back to and say you step too far and and we see this because even during nancy reagan's time when they were intimations that nancy reagan was was too powerful wore the pants in the reagan family too many times journalists at the time called upon edith wilson and suggested in nancy reagan that she was going to make a misstep akin to mrs. wilson's there are many other i mean many many many first ladies who are very powerful, but i think that the answer would probably start with edith wilson. all right, so i'm gonna make this case i knew she would i'm gonna do it. so it's the end of of the war of 1812. been in this war nothing this is the war that shouldn't have even ended before began. they conceded the british conceded don't made me explain it they conceited but we had the war anyway, and at the end of it loss of treasure lives. nothing gained capital burned to the ground. and yet the celebrations of this war this is right at the end of madison the madison presidency and james and dolly go off and a golden glow. in fact, they can't leave town after the inauguration because people just want to give them parties and everybody is celebrating this warm. it's making the americans outbreak gallatin said feel more american than ever. they're jumping with joy. how did that happen? and i would say that it was dolly madison's efforts during the war of 1812 to unify the capital unify the country emerge as the savior of washington city as one of the early stories that just made americans feel pretty darn good about this. and that really was the era of good feelings. i don't have convinced you. i'd go ahead. yeah, i'd put in a plug also for sarah poke and amy greenberg's biography of her is outstanding. i highly recommend it. it's a lady first is the title, but she was essentially the chief of staff. she you know, he as i said had health issues and she was perceived by many as very powerful. she was very savvy she knew how to work her way around washington and followed a lot of the dolly madison getting the right people together. both people on both sides of the aisle respected her, but she would read the newspapers every morning and give him a summary. she worked on his speeches when he was running for governor of tennessee. she was back in his second campaign when he was incumbent governor. she was essentially watching over the governorship while he campaigned and she took a lot of that same practice to the white house so she would give him far more advice and he'd listen to her advice more than some of his cabinet officials. and so she and when she was accused of being too powerful or controlling him, she would essentially say, you know, i'm saving his health she also managed his schedule to try to once again save his energy and so this would be i'm just being a good wife. so she used that domestic sphere as her defense that i'm just looking out for his well-being so that he can be president and do the right things and that was how she deflected some of the criticism but she was essentially a chief of staff to him grace coolidge was much beloved by the american people in large measure because she was a very traditional wife who dressed very well was >> grace coolidge was much beloved by the american people in large measure because she was a very traditional wife who dressed very well, was a very good mother, suffered the grief of the death of a child in the white house. but one of the reasons that people liked grace coolidge so much is because the three first ladies who came before her were widely considered to have too much power. so, edith wilson and helen taft and florence harding all were very powerful first ladies. grace benefited from that. >> there is a blow back, though, isn't there? >> always. >> not being elected, for the first ladies who come after a first lady who is perceived as powerful, whether they want to cut back or not, they feel the pressure from the public. >> we have a question here. >> yes. i have heard edith wilson referred to as our first female president. >> [laughter] >> i'm also surprised in this discussion that you haven't mentioned eleanor roosevelt. that isn't my question. my question is, political writers and pundits are very free about ranking our best presidents and our worst presidents. and i wonder if you would go so far as to maybe talk about who were our good first ladies and who were our worst. i know a lot of people -- they are not elected. they are thrust into the position. some people rise to the occasion and some don't. i just wonder if you would be involved in ranking them. >> this audience likes trouble. they like causing trouble. >> well, that gives us a project to work on. i didn't want to take the chair's prerogative, but i will speak about eleanor roosevelt. anyone here from hyde park? well, i'll tell you another sight story then. my upcoming book will be on the political relationship between john kennedy and eleanor roosevelt. and we could have a discussion on the power of first ladies after they leave the white house, because so many of them had continuing power or maybe even more power. they had more power after they left the white house. and certainly, eleanor roosevelt would fall into that category. she was -- let's put it this way -- she was very influential on our topic today for no other reason than the longevity of her time in the white house because of her husband's 12 years there. i became interested in this particular topic at the site, at the hyde park site. i had not been there until 2010. and of course, i went through the main house where fdr was born. and i didn't realize i had a personal relationship with him as i felt with president kennedy because of my mother taking me to see him. i had all these stories that had collected from my parents and my aunts and uncles about coming along in the depression and what fdr and eleanor roosevelt meant to them. and so, the ranger, the park ranger, was taking us through the mansion. we turned a corner and he said, this is the room where franklin roosevelt was born. and i burst into tears. very embarrassing to my friend who was accompanying me, because i was sobbing on his shoulder. we went to val-kill to see mrs. roosevelt's home that she had built in part to have her own life and, let's face it, to get away from her domineering mother-in-law. and i saw this picture of president kennedy, then candidate kennedy, coming out of the val-kill living room. eleanor led the way with these brilliant, bright smiles. i knew they had a problematic relationship politically. and so i wanted to study that. that will be my next book. but certainly, you would have to put her at or near the top in terms of influential, not only, again, during her first ladyship, all of the work that she did in so many fields you already mentioned. we did mention her in relation to civil rights. she was always telling her husband, you know, please get the anti-lynching bill through congress. and yet, we have to say, we have said the negative of their not being elected and accountable, but in some ways, that was a problem for -- fdr was saying, look, i have to run. i also have to keep on my side the two thirds of the senate and the house who are southern democrats. and in order to get my new deal legislation passed through, i can't put them off by supporting the anti lynching bill. so sometimes, the first ladies have the advantage of not having to worry about being on the ballot, and then sometimes, they can't do what they want because they are not on the ballot. anyway, we would have to put her up there. to have lead as our -- she was our first ambassador to the united nations when it was founded after her husband's death, after the war, after world war two. the declaration of human rights, the universal declaration of human rights. i will give her a shout out because, in a way, she helped jack kennedy be elected, because they buried the hatchet at a lunch in val-kill in august 1960 and they didn't bury it in each other. they came to common ground. we talked about that last night at the wonderful panel. can we not find common ground? those were two people in the same party, but had very different backgrounds and very different views. they found common ground and worked with each other. and by the way, again, given that we are in women's history month, president kennedy named mrs. roosevelt to chair his president's commission on the status of women and that led to having similar commissions on women's rights and the status of women in every one of the 50 states and eventually led to the founding of the national organization of women and what we consider to be the modern feminist movement. >> and eleanor, in response to the ranking, eleanor on most of the polls that we have been taking, is number one. and will stay there. i think the reason we have not mentioned her as one of the powerful first ladies, i think we were thinking of in terms of directing the president or, like you said, usurping wilson. but she redefined what a first lady could be. and that's why i think she's up there at the top. she was the first really activist first lady. she showed how she could go out and really promote what her husband was doing, she was his eyes, his legs, his ears. so in that sense, it was not her own agenda, she was really furthering his and providing him with that feedback from around the country that he couldn't personally get because of his physical limitations. >> i think, you brought this up, but we are successfully avoiding your question, we have heard it, we are now sidestepping it. i do think looking at what a first lady does afterwards, because they sometimes wake up to their power and i would include mrs. laura bush in that. an incredibly active post first lady, lady. [applause] >> we will be seeing her this evening, right? >> yes, next question. >> thank you very much for all of your insight. when i think about the influence that first ladies have, i think about the resources that the first lady might need to make that influence. so, can you talk about how the budget for the first lady has evolved over the years? >> yes. there isn't one. >> there hadn't been one. or even office space or anything else like that. you know, the east wing is a relatively new phenomenon within the white house, from a physical space. edith roosevelt was the first to actually hire someone to work for her. and then, for many years, they were conscripting people from other departments to help out, and agencies. but people are shocked when i do a lot of public lectures on first ladies for both students and other groups and they say well how much does the first lady get paid? zero. they are stunned. but it's a full-time job. yes. >> edith roosevelt hired the first social secretary, but she did pay for the caterers out of her own pocket. you know, what would you rather do? write the letters or make the meals? anita would be a wonderful person to talk to about the money actually. she would be our best expert. >> hi, thank you so much for this discussion this afternoon. it's my understanding that eleanor roosevelt really did not enjoy the public eye at first and somewhat struggled with having that public persona and getting involved, but then she really made a breakthrough and became one of our most remembered first ladies. my question is, are there other first ladies who had a similar struggle like that and then made that breakthrough and were able to make some really important changes in their experience? >> there were several who had at least many years before the presidency to take care of some of that. both bushes. i think laura bush did not expect to be married to a politician and barbara bush was terrified of public speaking. and the way she developed -- i'm a communication person, so i really study a lot about what they do about their public speaking -- she would do slide shows when she would go back to texas. she would take her children all around all the monuments when he was in congress and she developed her public speaking skills from doing slide shows back in texas, so that she had a crutch and they weren't looking at her. lady bird johnson sabotaged being valedictorian of her high school graduating class. she purposely got a b in a class, so that she wouldn't be, so that she wouldn't have to give a speech. she took a public speaking course with a group of other senate wives, and that was how she got over it. and she was not excited when she married lyndon johnson. many of these women's came into this reluctantly and then saw, because they had a public service commitment, that this was something that was very important to the country and that they could make a real contribution. they overcame fears of public speaking, they overcame the fear of being out there in the public as eleanor roosevelt and so many of the other ones did. but it's really more common. we had a few wives actually prayed, mrs. pierce, that her husband would not win because she did not want to get involved. >> most first ladies said they didn't want to be first lady. some of them that were sort of duped along the way, it was joe biden who said to jill, nothing will change. nothing will change for you when you marry me. [laughs] >> and of course eleanor roosevelt, i think we could say, started out as an introvert, but she had to become available to be her husband's legs when polio afflicted him in the early 20s. that's when she started really going out to speak, in that case, for him, or keep his name out in public and really took lessons from louis howe, his great political adviser. because she had done that, she actually took public speaking lessons, she began writing to president kennedy once he was in the white house and told him he needed to see a public speech expert to improve his public speaking. >> what did ted sorensen think? >> she did not complain about the speech. she wrote a very complimentary note about his inaugural address. later on she said your throat is too tight, she said. >> hello, my name is jo stuckey, i'm the superintendent of jimmy carter national historical park. >> thank you. >> i want to say something that i say about ten times a day. mrs. carter's name is pronounced rosalynn carter. she's named after her aunt lynn and her cousin rose. i always tell people rose garden, rosalynn carter. i wanted to just make that clear. >> thank you. >> if you would allow me to just say something in the minute that we have left. >> one minute and catherine wishes to speak. >> this has been wonderful and i have done several of these programs for the white house historical association and i have been in the first lady game about 25 years. what has been amazing for me is to see how it has grown as a field of study. it started to be an almost, like, compulsive focus on biography and it really was not clear really why you should care about particular first lady. some of them are fascinating, some of them weren't, none of them plan to be first lady pretty much. it has grown from that to actually being an intellectually sophisticated category of analysis where looking at first ladies tells us something about women, about power, about american history. the white house historical association has played such a large part in that. it should not be surprising, it was founded by a first lady, but the truth is under stewart, it has been a real focus on first lady studies, taking it seriously. obviously having anita mcbride as the leadership in the organization has sharpened that and it has been my pleasure to sit with these women and other women over the years and watch this field grow. you mentioned f.l.a.r.e. and f.l.a.r.e., could you tell us what it is again? >> first ladies association for research and education. >> it's fairly brand-new. really, i would say it is the child of the white house historical association's focus on first ladies. i just want to thank you anita, and stewart, wherever you are. thank you so much. >> thank you. [applause] today during women's history month. we're incredibly fortunate to welcome jared kearney assis today, during women's history month we are incredibly fortunate to welcome jarod kearney, assistant director and curator at the james monroe museum in fredericksburg, virginia. for a presentation which will showcase a selection of original items from the life
now i have a very great pleasure. of introducing what many people consider? the brightest jewels in the crown of a first lady historians of america, so starting with dr. barbara perry. and while dr. perry is walking up here. it should be noted that she just came out today with an article. in the publication the hill on first ladies in war and as as barbara said she she was inspired by the association. and she is the gerald bayless professor and director of presidential studies the university of virginia's miller center. and currently serves on the board which we are very honored the board of directors of the white house historical association. joining her on stage our panelist. dr. diana carlin professor emerit of communications and many have called her the queen of communications at saint louis university and then we have dr. catherine al gore who made a very fabulous statement earlier today in the session the president of the massachusetts historical society. and dr. stacy cordary, which i understand is a british way to pronounce it and she is dennis and didn't denison von johnson endowed chair of theodore roosevelt honors leadership studies at dickinson state university. this is an incredible panel and as stuart has always advised us. we have a responsibility here. to inspire to encourage and to teach and i think with this panel you will get an abundance of material. thank you so much. well, welcome everyone to this panel on first ladies. thank you teresa for that very nice introduction. thank you to stuart and to anita for this amazing summit here in dallas that we've all been waiting. so to participate in and attend and to be in person you and the team at the white house historical association have done amazing work as you always do and many thanks to my colleagues here all of who's work has inspired mine over the years. so i'm very grateful to them. so as teresa said we're going to be looking at first ladies today and thinking about their influence on their president husbands. we're going to be thinking about when they promote change and sometimes we talked about when they have not been in favor of change which we can decide might be a good or a bad thing. let me start i'd like the last panel when we said let's do a flash poll. how many of you either work in the field the first ladies or where you work has some connection with first ladies or you just are a first lady aficionado. let's see a show of hands great. well, this is super we welcome you all and and for those of you who don't we hope to spread the word about first ladies and flare particularly as well as the white house historical association all of its good work in this field. so we wanted to start with a pretty basic question and that is how did the position of first ladies come to be? that's not in the constitution as the presidential position is an offices and it's an unelected position as we know. so how did it start and i'm going to turn to my first two colleagues to my left here to diana who is writing a book about all first ladies a textbook and you might tell us a little bit about that today and we want to start with the very first first ladies, and i also want to turn as well to catherine al gore because she's a specialist on the founding first ladies as well in particularly dolly madison, so let me turn to diana first. well, i don't think you can really study the presidency without studying the first ladies now, i'm biased but i believe that and it really started because this has been a partnership from the beginning. when martha washington arrived in new york a couple months after the president had arrived she was greeted with by the president in a barge. he then in new jersey wrote her over to the shore in new york. she was greeted with a gun salute and people were yelling long live lady washington and when she arrived she found out she already had a schedule. they they realize that because our president is both head of government and head of state that there would be events that needed to be planned with dignitaries that he needed to have these members of congress there and that they needed to host them and so nobody was better than martha at that because she'd been doing it for years. so she had a schedule she had restrictions and so it was a two-person career from the very beginning and she had abigail at her side and let catherine talk a little bit more about that. but martha definitely understood the concept of soft power. and that has been something that has been a trend for first ladies to use all the way through since the beginning. so the beginning was that martha really was a partner as she had been with the president all through their marriage and through his years during the revolutionary war where she would go to the camps the winter camps every year and would assist him and try to keep morell up and organize sewing circles and that type of thing, but it was a partnership it still is and so the two go together. she was not called first lady that didn't really happen until later in the 19th century. she was called lady washington, which was the term that was given to her by some of the revolutionary war soldiers. they even had a lady washington's brigade and that was sort of the vestige of the british past that she was also an example of what a southern lady would be. so that was the beginning. i just think it's really striking. so in other venues, i've actually said the dolly madison was the first first lady and i'm prepared found that but the truth is you're right right from the beginning martha washington is getting the message. but what's also true again? there's an intentionality from her so she begins dressing a certain way and she along with george washington and alexander hamilton. maybe john jay. they start communicating about the kinds of ceremonies. that would be proper for a new republic. because of course at that time they got a real tight kind of like lane to stay in. the american colonists had rebelled against the monarchy they were going to create the world anew the world turned upside down antimonarchical anti-king anti-royalties all going to be new. except when it came to ruling they realized that the only vocabulary of power they had was monarchical and aristotle and so how are they going to cut that and so we have these moments in the historical record where george washington is wondering exactly how many pairs of matched horses is enough to convey his authority pulling his carriage the and how much would be like too much? i think the answer was three pair but the same thing with martha, how would she dress that would convey a sense to the outsiders who are not sure this america thing was going to work and the new americans who are not sure this american thing was going to work that they were being ruled properly and well and they came up with ceremonies that tried to combine a kind of almost democratic energy. i think with you know, some some kind of vestige of royalty and that's why i think lady washington and dolly madison is going to be lady, but she's else would be queen dolly. yes. yes. so thoughts about we can't leave the founding. we've certainly need to get to more of dolly madison. but abigail adams, we always cite her letter to her husband about the constitutional convention about don't forget the ladies when they were putting together the constitution but of course in a way they did but any thoughts about abigail and and john adams and and moving into the white house. well, yes, and there are the first couple to move into the white house. nobody stayed terribly long. they weren't impressed. i think abigail in some ways embodies another part of the partnership that diana is talking about she really wasn't interested in what they would call presiding. so she adopted martha's innovations and ceremonies rather dutifully, but the role that abigail played was really that of advisor. she really was her husband's closest. sir, and in the spirit of republican virtue, that's small our republican virtue john adams made the terrible decision not to change his cabinet. so he ended up the cabinet full of let's just called them traders all working behind his back so he would have always relied on abigail but in that particular circumstance, she really was his very closest advisor and that's fascinating that you're mentioning that catherine because really coming up to modern first ladies and contemporary first ladies in terms of personnel issues. we know for example that nancy reagan so important on issues of personnel never afraid to tell her husband that person should go that person's not good for you. so it clearly starts at the very beginning in that kind of advisory capacity. so before we come back to dolly, let me turn to my colleague stacy and we did a panel some months ago in the midst of the pandemic when we were always online and doing these great panels for the white house historical associ. and for flair and stacy came up with a set of i guess you would call them roadmaps or criteria. just how do we know if a first lady is being influential? how do we know that at the time if we do know it what are some of the sign posts that we might see and then afterwards how do we know what what are some of the signals that a first is being influential? well, these are many of these go back to the very earliest first ladies as you two have discussed. and some of it is common sensical did has she achieved what she said she would achieve in some cases and on the other end of the scale as we have the sienna first ladies poll. so just like we take a sounding of what americans think about how well they're presidents succeeding. how weird is the first lady stand in that as well? we look at how her relationship with her husband seems to succeed or fail how any cause she might espouse supports her husband's programs. there are a number of ways that we i think try to decide what whether first lady successful or not. it gets tricky when you try to really put a number on it because so many of these causes are causes that are continued from first lady who proceeded them and and sometimes the the country changes so much that that causes get abandoned because something else comes in their place. well, it seems to me that one of the things that we mentioned about martha washington. and again, we'll lead us into dolly is the concept of soft power and i am a pseudo historian. i'm really trained as a political scientist. so we like to think in terms of power and how power is used and defining power and typically political scientists and others. will define soft power as diplomatic power diplomacy cultural exchanges, and we know that first ladies certainly have excelled at that. so let's think in those terms in lynn. let's turn to dolly in that you called it catherine when we were first talking this unofficial role because again, this is a position that that is given to this woman. who's the spouse of the president simply because she's the spouse of the president. yeah, and i mean i at some point somebody's going to ask the very rude question. why should we care about first lady and one of the things is that by studying first ladies the same way studying women their words their work their lives. we learn things we would not have known about and it cannot just be a record of contributions but constitutions and that it can change the narrative and maybe one of the things that's going to do for you political scientists. is to change that word soft power which sounds soft and not powerful because it may be this thing. we're calling soft power might be the power studying first. ladies brings out the study of the every day for instance the power of the everyday the power of material in different ways. so to address your question quite directly and using the roadmap you gave us she's good on this one james madison's major issue that he had to solve was the question of unity. this was alluded to i think earlier in the day, but this was the time when the united states of america was referred to in the plural. the united states are right because nobody was sure this republican experiment was going to hold nobody the outsiders from europe looking with john just die and the people the new americans themselves. and james madison believed in unity, and he believed and he worried because he didn't think that enough unified the cold-blooded new englanders and the hot blooded virginians and he saw this group of people who were so very different and he said, you know, we don't have what he called veneration but history like we don't even have history. we don't have blood. we barely have a language and sometimes it will shake yet that we all understood each other, but we had to have unity so in theory, he understood unity. he didn't have the appetite, but if you think of it in that way and then you look at all the dolly madison did in helping to found and cement washington dc is the capital and finally save it when you look at the parties where she brought people together in the room and made them behave. so they got to know each other's human beings. her role is the charismatic figure using her dress and her parties. all of that can be seen as fulfilling this role of unity and you might say unity which is an emotional or a psychological state is quote soft power but in the end, it's what got the united states of america into the singular through the war and off really often to democracy. and if you haven't read catherine's book on the madison's marriage, it's a it's a perfect union. correct the title. well, it's a perfect union because i do think james and dolly were perfectly matched different in a political but also proof union because as historians we always think what is the concatenation of person and circumstance and if the american revolution had never happened, i guess dolly would have just been a virginia gentry wife who through great parties by the way, but she rose to those circumstances and just to get back to you use the word unofficial and again, this is i think shows us something important when i studied earlier republic and and i did read a little blue signs. i figured out that for politics to happen. you need two spheres and one is official and one is unofficial and the officials fair you all know. it's the speeches and the legislator legislation and the peace treaties and all of that. it's the product of politics, but then there's got to be a process. there's got to be a place. where people can get together and they can propose things. they might not propose in the official spotlight the glare of the spotlight they have to be able to negotiate. they also have to get to know each other as human beings. and that is the unofficial sphere and because that takes place in people's homes, and it's social events women are disproportionately represented in that sphere, but you need both of those. and if somebody asked me, you know sometimes what's wrong with washington, which i don't like to come out on contemporary things. it's the lack of the unofficial sphere. there's no place where men and women can get together and understand that though you and i might have a very different idea of the public good. we do share a commitment to the public good and so again by studying first ladies, that's where you see the power of that and and and note the absence of it when when it's gone. right? well, i think the importance of dolly also is that she not only did this for her husband, but dolly then tutored several other first lady who came after her, you know after james madison died. she moved back to washington and she helped court a lot, but i think about sarah pope and you know james pope probably the most successful one-term president. we've had ran on four parts of a platform and accomplished all of them. he knew his health wasn't in great shape, so he didn't run for a second term, but sarah spent a lot of time learning from dolly. well, she really set the tone for i mean decades. yeah, eleanor roosevelt being the exception that proved the rule but mrs. kennedy, i love that. she didn't like the idea of redecorating the white house a lot of people say dolly redecorated the white house, but what she did was restructure it in a way that mrs. kennedy would have proved by this is amazing that before dolly's white house, which is called the executive mansion and it would only be during her tenure where it would get that familiar loving nickname the white house there was no place in the in the capital city where all the men of government could get together. let alone their families let alone visiting diplomats. let alone visiting americans let alone anybody it was so what dolly did was she took that executive mansion and she turned it in to a center for entertaining where everybody in town would show up and they did and she threw weekly parties and they were as regular and as grueling as they sound but they became an independent and indispensable part of the washington political machine. and it's in those parties. i can tend that these people learn to work together in a bipartisan ways going towards something they didn't even know is going to happen, which is that this one party republic was going to turn into a two-party democracy. you know, we're certainly still in in the earliest days of this office. but stacey focuses on the early 20th century first ladies, and so let's turn to her and thoughts about how the role had changed was it has it been changing. did it change did the civil war for example change it as we get closer than into the gilded age and then the 20th century before we talk about change. i think it's worth pointing out that what dr. algar has been describing is the consistent through the through the centuries. edith roosevelt for example provided a space where theodore roosevelt could meet together with booker t, washington that was not something it could have happened. just anywhere in washington dc, you know so that space that first ladies and first families in general have provided for gathering americans across the political divide as has been a crucial part of it. i think that's why in historical historians solidarity with dr. algo there unofficially the unofficial sphere is such an important term rather than i know political science and soft power, but that unofficial sphere is integral to the what the first lady has always done even down to today. so changes. well, there's a there are many changes and we can talk more about these but it has to do with the growth of a gender expectations the growth of women's activity in the world as we move through the century the civil war. it makes changes women's war work and then as we get towards the gilded age and moving into the progressive era that's sort of work that women do in the world. to move out of their domestic sphere which was the socially dictated acceptable place for women to be education and yeah, yep carry on there's met there's a million changes education is just one so certainly by the time you reach the first decade of 20th century and edith roosevelt helen taft. you have many solitaries, but many many differences, too. so well, i think just to defend my discipline. i think the reason why male political scientists focus on soft powers that they also focus on hard power and they want to make that distinction. of course, they view hard powers the military power and the economic sanctions all of which we're seeing now, but i think in this month of women's history, you know, we want to think certainly much more broadly beyond those two categories and when you mentioned women's history month, it's great that we're doing this now because i really think that if you look at the ark of american women's history, you have to look at first ladies. once again, we those of us who study first ladies say that they mirror society and women's roles and so went by studying those first ladies you get this little microcosm of what was happening. we talked about this division of spheres. but they also produce change and so that arc of history were the changes and so you begin to see the first ladies for instance who have an education who have a college education lucy hayes the first one you see where the first ladies were on suffrage. and interestingly you did not have them favoring suffrage at least not explicitly because politically it would not have been wise for some of them to have done that because the suffragists were basically viewed as radical extremely radical and then when you look at temperance was another issue that was also tied in with the suffrage movement later and all of these women were held up to a certain standard as to whether they were serving wine or hard liquor or nothing in the way of alcoholic drinks in the white house and that all played in with the movement. so it i really don't think you can separate first lady's history from american women's history. there's a paradox who that you're reminding me of which i think is also part of white women's history, which is this paradox if you had called dolly madison a feminist she would have been horrified first. you didn't confuse because nobody use that word, but she wouldn't horrified and and you would point out to her you'd say well mrs. madison, you know, you go get legislation passed for your you know constituency in virginia those revolutionary war pensions, and don't you get jobs for the sons of your friends and political supporters. that's called patronage mrs. madison, and she would say i am supporting my husband. so i'm supporting my husband and his goals and i'm not doing anything and that kind of denial of political intent or i guess political intent or ambition is so very typical, especially a middling and elite white women and you see it these women using they're very conservative positions to actually foster what we call radical change right they had access to power and if you look at the anti-suffrage movement, it was often very elite women whose husbands were powerful positions who have posted because they had a pathway to power and so some of these women did not thinking about all the other women who didn't you know, you mentioned the i'm actually writing it. nita mcbride and nancy keegan smith who's some of you know, who was at the national archives for many years. and the second chapter of our book we the first chapter we look at this whole notion of the evolution of the position including when the title came into play, but our second chapter is on first ladies and civil rights. and we put that at the front of the book because we wanted to once again show this arc of history through the women who were the first lady and so you start with martha washington who brought in slave servants to the homes in both, new york and philadelphia and in philadelphia, they were doing it pretty much they had to skirt the law if they had kept their enslaved servants there for more than six months. they were free. so they would send them back to mount vernon. and so there was this back and forth in order to evade this law. we had 10 families in the white house historical association because michelle obama brought that to their attention looked at slavery in the white house. so 10 different families had brought in slave servants and part of the reason some of them did it was that congress was so tight with the money for running the household and they had to use a lot of their own money. it was just they would bring their own enslaved servants with them to say, you know on the funds so we look in this chapter starting with martha washington and the contributions those early southern first ladies made to systemic racism. and then we get into. you know mary lincoln who has an african freed woman who is her dressmaker and she is giving money to the freed slaves who have come to the dc area and are living hand to mouth and she's taking her own money and supporting them then you get up to eleanor roosevelt. you know who did amazing things and was actually on a hit list by the ku klux klan they had a bounty on her head for what she was doing to promote civil rights and to bring the issue of lynching out lady bird johnson's incredible whistle stop tour after the civil rights act in 64. so we really and then of course we get historic michelle obama, and so we trace that history and look at where these women sort of fit in from these elite southern women. up to michelle obama and i think it's a good way for people to see this relationship between first ladies in history and the impact. and social history stacy, i think did you have your oh, i was just going to just on the topic of suffrage. there were small cadre of elite women in america, of course who did support suffrage but among elite women most of whom we can count the first ladies among. alice roosevelt longworth was a first daughter. once said i have more power around my dining room table then i have with one vote. yeah, that's a great kind of sum up that attitude. yeah. she also said if you can't say something nice come sit by me right didn't she have an embroidered pillow that said that on her couch, i love that. oh, can we circle back to mrs. lincoln? we don't want to quite park on the 20th 21st century, but some of you here know my personal story of how i became interested in the presidency in the white house's my dear mother took me to see john f kennedy campaigning and our hometown of louisville, kentucky in october of 1960. just one month before he was elected and i always start with that story because my mother was not a political scientist or historian. she was out in the suburbs of louisville raising baby boomer children, and but was very well read and and a wonderful grammarian and a champion speller and and but she just was drawn to him we're catholic he was the same generation. he was a world war two veteran is it was my father but the next memory i have a i think i was about six was being taken to hodgenville, kentucky to see lincoln's birthplace. so one one moment taken to see an almost president one from some time before and then a couple years later my dad took me out to the airport in louisville to see ex-president eisenhower come through and he was campaigning in the 1962 midterm. so came from a very bipartisan household, but i always say that when i went as age six to see the presidential side of the birthplace of abraham lincoln as a six-year-old. what made the biggest impact on me was the replica of the log cabin that they have there in the replica of the lincoln memorial and the next thing that made such an impact on me. they said this is a tree that was here when abraham lincoln was born and somehow just knowing that there was something living there from when he was born just made such an impact on me. so also as a native, kentucky and i have to think both about and mrs. lincoln, and we talked in one of the earlier panels, of course about all of us having to deal with different kinds of media, but she was really savaged in the media was she not during the civil war and so can we talk about that and and then maybe also get into the larger discussion of how first ladies have dealt with media and the changes in media. so i open that up to our group and i start with the dolly connection because this was her this was maybe a fatal decision on mary todd lincoln, by the way. i love that story because that really speaks to the power of place and person and sites presidential site absolutely and sites and the materiality of it and that's something else. we should have a whole another panel on but so i think this is true so mary todd lincoln try to make a sort of kinship connection with dolly madison because dolly had had a first husband john todd who perished in a yellow fever plague and the todd thing was the mary todd mary. lincoln dolly todd madison, okay. and so she tried to emulate dolly and so i meant it when i said dolly set the tone for first ladies for you know two centuries, but she was kind of tone deaf, right? like she threw parties in a war which dolly had done but that wars 1812 wars all happening out there, but the battlefield was like a mile away in virginia. i was just it was bad news, wasn't it? far be it for me to be a mary todd lincoln apologist, but it's worth noting before diana jumps into this because i can. see no first lady. ever gets it right. yeah some big portion of america says you're doing it completely wrong and it should be this way and the other half of america says you're just perfect darling. keep going. no. no first lady ever gets it, right and so mary todd lincoln had her supporters. she's certainly had a lot of detractors and even among his stories today who study here. there are first lady. i guess i would say first lady scholars of different backgrounds who would find mary todd lincoln a figure of tremendous pathos. yes. yes, definitely with a terror just a terrible terrible life and who didn't deserve nearly the criticism she got but she was sort of tone deaf about the parties and the dresses and the money she spent and even her own husband had to say, you know, mary you have to dial back some of this grief because remember the rest of the country's grieving as well. so she's again. i'm not going to be an apologist, but no first lady has ever had a hundred percent thumbs up from the country. well and the thing with mary lincoln too was that she did a lot of very good things she did but she didn't understand public relations as she probably should have she was savaged both in the northern press and the southern press because she was a kentuckyian some of her she came from she had a blended family because her mother had died when she was younger father remarried. she had half brothers who were fighting on behalf of confederacy. so some of the northerners considered her a traitor and of course the south considered her a traitor being married to abraham lincoln and and being the wife of the president so she really was never going to please everybody whether it was in the north or the south and and she was also a westerner. and this was something that other first ladies rachel jackson for example died before her husband was inaugurated and some people believe that it was the way she was savaged in the press they accused they they pictured her as this corn cob smoking woman. of course, they accused her being a bigamist and the press was so horrible. you know, she had a stroke and died before he took office and they they did the same thing to margaret taylor who was an educated woman and tried to portray her also as this corn cob that was sort of the stereotype of somebody from the west if you were in east coast occupant of dc and so mary went through some of that too that she wasn't quite dignified enough so some of her spending came from her wanting to fit in to this social milieu of washington dc and be acceptable as someone who was refined. but she was savaged in the press, but she also went to the the hospitals she would write for wounded soldiers. none of that really came out much at the time and then the support that she gave like i mentioned in our chapter on first ladies and civil rights where she was actually giving money to former slaves to help them live. and this was a type of thing. that didn't come out at that point in time where she needed to take a page out of julia tyler who was john tyler's second wife who hired a press agent. and made sure that certain articles were placed about her and what she was doing and mary just didn't get her positive story out as much as she needed to. well, let's move fully and squarely into the 20th century and again back to media and i'm thinking stacey of changes in visual media coming on yellow journalism. how does that affect first ladies at that early part of the 20th century you've written so extensively written on alice roosevelt longworth for example written on your latest book is on elizabeth arden, correct and how women i'm presuming present themselves. so and if you would like to weave in the fashion component one of our young colleagues talked at the pre lunch panel about her podcast that she gets young people interested in talking about the fashions of carolyn bessette and and they end up being interested in the in the new frontier. so how have first ladies as we get into the more visual side of the media and electronic media begin to have an impact in that way. frankie cleveland was the youngest first lady it's about 21 years old. and she was a kind of a celebrity herself partly her youth partly the interest in the relationship. she was married to a sitting president where she married grover cleveland and you know, she became her her face her name got put on advertisements. she could do nothing about it drove grover cleveland crazy that his wife was used in this way. but, you know wherever she went. she had crowds following her. there's tremendous interest among the american people in frankie, cleveland. and so, you know, this isn't too far ahead in into the 20th century as we moved to the 20th century, but you know eda throws well by the time we get to that point. edith roosevelt was very protective of her family of her children. she loathed what she referred to as camera fiends. didn't didn't want the the photographers around and had post pictures of all the children taken so that they could be released when the newspapers wanted them. she really did not want her children and again, the protection of one's children is another through line that goes all the way from the very beginning to today. you know, melania trump didn't want to move into the white house until barron had finished his schooling up there. so, so the the newspapers the vast increase in the number and types of newspapers published at the end of the 19th century into the 20th century is part of it many more sort of photographic sections in newspapers and then the women's magazines in particulars. they came out began to feature first ladies and much of what they said was true in a good bit was not first ladies tended not to give interviews to journalists of any sort and when they did they did not want to be quoted partly. that was a fear of saying something that would detract from their husbands. program or his presidency in some way, but it was very clear very early on back to dr. august era that the arab study that the first lady was a phenomenal interest to people so trying to keep the camera fiends away was almost a no-hoper. yeah, and i mean we have to look at those again these one of the things women's history has done for us is brought new topics into what quote what is history including things like fashion and sociability and it's important whenever it's a first lady it's never personal. it is always got a policy component. so dolly madison is very sort of authentic personality became a tool of policy for james madison, and she also used fashion and my form of the media because the media at the time didn't do things like you're talking about we're observers, so i would when i was researching dolly madison, i was terribly interested in her outfits and and people's reaction to her and everybody wrote about her. so if you went to one of these parties you saw on the street you wrote home about it, and i enjoyed all of reading all of these descriptions of the outfits and the way she was with people and then i realized that these were not just celebrity mentions that these were actually a form of political analysis because they were looking at her and evaluating her is whether she was the of the right. ruling class. is this a proper person and one of the things that dolly did is she wrote that line that i sort of mentioned between, you know republican virtue exemplified by james madison who was such a non-entity that he got lost in his own parties. and queen dolly who swanned around and fantastical outfits. so she was dolly madison was not a well-dressed woman of fashion. she also did not dress like a real queen in europe. i don't think she knew what that was. she dressed like what americans would imagine a queen would be so fabulous materials, and yes the turbines with the feathers so that when she's walking around that room and the white house, you know, where she is everywhere she goes and and in fact these outfits which were almost like the colors and the -- they were kind of crazy. they unlike a real queen's outfit. she could move quite freely because she needed to come out she needed to connect and she needed to touch and people are writing about this and writing about this and and you understand that this is again not just as what what was she wearing? you know, it was trying to evaluate who this person was and for the most part though dolly had her haters too. so i have to run. yes. she did. she got it right people were very satisfied that they were they had their own. and that was queen dolly democratic queen, but a queen dolly part of mrs. lincoln's problem was as diana said the country is at war so she spent too much under clothing then she was criticized for that every first lady going way back to martha washington has had to walk a fine line between saying i my white house will reflect the best of europe we will be and we will be a washington dc that fits in with every european capital and you can see this in the way that the white house is the the interior designs and you can see in the way dress for example. and on the other side, there are first ladies who had to say no that we are going to showcase the best of american art and culture and and i am not going to dress like i were, you know a european queen so you think about mrs. carter, for example, i'm really skipping ahead now, but rosalyn carter made a virtue in addressing like the everyday woman back up to edith roosevelt who felt this? keenly edith roseville was not particularly a fashion plate and she and her daughter got very good at sending out different slightly different descriptions of the exact same dress to the press. so to find that fine line between being criticized for spending too much money and not spending enough money someone once said of edith, roseville. something like either throws out says she dressed on three hundred dollars a year and she looks it. fine line very difficult to find that middle ground and we can think of the more recent first ladies and my favorite jacqueline kennedy during the campaign and we now think of her as this beautiful fashion icon, but during the campaign of 1960. she was being criticized. she says in our oral history the things that used to be viewed as a handicapped to my husband. they said because i spoke french or because i dressed in a beautiful way that that was detracting from my husband then she said when i became first lady then that seemed to help but during the campaign she was it was quoted in the paper that someone said she spent $30,000 right a year on on her clothing and she fired back and she said, oh i couldn't spend that much if i were sable underwear, and so she she took it nancy reagan, of course ran into this she was being her loaned beautiful designer gowns for events at the white house and other events and then there was a criticism of was she paying for those or not and when it came out that perhaps she was not pain and not just having them loan to her, but she was keeping them in her closet. so you might remember at the white house correspondence dinners. she did that great send-up of herself where she dressed like carol burnett's char woman and and sent came out into the tune of secondhand rose and i'm wearing second hand clothes. i'm wearing second and close and she brought the house down and and if if you are being attacked and you can make fun of yourself or poke fun at yourself, that's a lesson, of course to be learned. let's talk about some other technological changes. that would have changed the role of first lady and that is as travel became more of an opportunity and ease or ease of travel. so the railroads come into being and then obviously planes about all of the first ladies that you know, and you've studied and what travel then actually contributed to their own work and to the work of their husbands. well, the pokes did a trip down to the south. and sarah polk went with him. and this was one of the early opportunities for a woman to be beside her husband someplace outside of washington. you know, this was the thing if anyone knew about the first ladies outside of the washington area, it was either in their home state or from what they were reading in the press and so with train travel it then gave the wives an opportunity to travel with the husbands, so they had a very successful run down. through several states and that i think was important for some of her image. the clevelands traveled together there were several others garfields so early on after the train, you know, the lincolns came. from illinois to washington on a train from springfield and had stops all along the way so people got to see the first lady before inauguration. so it really was important beginning to travel around the country is around the country so citizens who won't normally be able to be in washington get a sense of who the first family is and mrs. wilson went abroad than with withrow wilson the second mrs. wilson, correct? yes the war. yes, and just before that. this is a another topic that that comes together first lady scholars tend to look at when did first ladies begin to campaign with their husbands? and so these opportunities to with the husband? began to overlap with campaigning some wives went either throws out went for example on trips when he was campaigning not even always for himself and in part to see what he did, you know, so it was useful first ladies or potential first ladies to see how their husbands interacted with the public. so edith. well the second mrs. wilson. ellen wilson was woodrow wilson's first wife and she died in the white house. so when president wilson remarried his second wife edith went abroad with him during the time. he was negotiating the treaty of versa to conclude world war one. and this was a very important moment for her to see her husband acclaimed essentially as the savior of the of the war. so that was that was an important step forward. but even your closer to your eras the lady bird johnson and the whistle stop. yes in the whistles up you and yeah, so even in the era of plane travel you of course had truman doing the the whistle stop and then ladybird in 64 as i mentioned, which was an incredibly important trip in that gave her a chance to travel and to begin seeing that it was okay for women to to campaign for their husbands to be surrogates. you know, that's one thing we haven't really talked about yet. is this whole surrogate ocean and how the wife can do a lot to restore a president's image and you mentioned frankie cleveland who became francis cleveland after she married you don't know he had been her father was his law partner and her father died when she was very young and he was her ward essentially and everyone thought he was going to marry her mother. and she did a tour of europe after she graduated from college and there were all these rumors and they she came back from her european tour and he buries the daughter instead of the mother. so everyone was enthralled but if you remember also grover cleveland mama, where's my paw gone to the white house? hahaha. so by marrying frankie cleveland, he really had a redemption of his image and then when he came in for a second term, they had they be ruth the candy bars named after they now have a young child and they had just and the first child born in the white house was the cleveland's second daughter. so it was a rehabilitation of grover cleveland's image by marrying francis, and she even had to make some public statements. there were rumors that he was abusive and so she went on record publicly about what a great husband he was and on and on and so people saw change in him. and so there was a very different grover cleveland as a result. and women, you know betty ford vote for betty's husband because everybody loved betty ford, and we've seen more and more of that that the wives often have higher ratings than the husbands and i don't think of that as surrogate in the sense of a substitute. i think it's an addition. so sea mart seymour martin lipset had a who's a political scientist at a category called the charismatic figure and he was talking about george washington that way and dolly madison really pioneered this role, which is that you could be this carrier of your husband's message. you could be a larger than life entity that had good and bad things because you could also be a but you could be imparting messages of authority and legitimacy of reassurance of americanness of modernity the way jacqueline kennedy did and michelle obama, so it's like an extension a personification of your husband's message. yeah. so lazy bird did that really well with great society programs extremely well, and another change that happens to get back to your question barbara earlier along these lines is women who open up the role of the first lady by opening simultaneously opening up the white house to the people. i'm thinking about women who were more forthcoming about their health. i mean, you know mrs. ford betty ford is our probably our best example, but she's not the first one who was less private about her health concerns and so shared with with the american people what was going on before before then there was a lot of health concerns hidden both of the president and the first lady and when betty ford allowed americans to learn about her breast cancer, this is something that we can actually put a number two. we know for a fact that in this way. i think betty ford saved, who knows how many lives because women went and got mammograms after this happened and she was it was a kind of bravery. it's hard to reimagine. although some of you will know at that time. we didn't even say the word cancer let alone the word breath, you know, so this is the first lady going beyond what her husband had originally imagined right and as you say can be quantified indeed last point speaking of being open and opened up we would like you to come to the microphones and ask your questions now and while you're thinking of those just a last point about travel by first ladies, it's exactly 60 years ago this month that mrs. kennedy undertook her trip to pakistan and india by herself did not that is did not go with the and and those two countries are always a bit tense and certainly during the cold war. she did take her sister lee reds will but they had a really charming and and wonderful trip and that is that concept of diplomacy and carrying the image of the country in the cold war when we were trying to tell those countries. we called them then third world that we would say developing but we were trying to get them to our side so they wouldn't join in the the communist side or the soviet sphere the chinese sphere and she was able to present the country abroad and certainly at home. so with that let me bring my friend and thank you, dr. perry. you can take this as broadly or as narrowly as you desire but in your opinion, which first lady singular or i guess couple first ladies plural wielded the most power during their time in the white house. so the question i think most first ladies scholars would come up with would be edith wilson, right? i the answer rather. no, dr. august looked at me like maybe not. i'm pondering and that was such a tricky question. very good. very good. lawyer that was why that was tricky. there you go. woodrow wilson was in terrible health throughout most of his life in fact, and we look back on this now and we see the perhaps he was having. many strokes as it were during his marriage to his first wife. so the the terrible health problems. he had during his second marriage that led up to his paralysis and his inability real well separate process inability to conduct the business estate. i think is is probably what leads to the answer of edith wilson, and she i think edith wilson also because she becomes the the example of what not to do is first lady edith wilson overstepped bounds. she she decided when when president wilson was so ill she made several decisions about him that resulted in her. not exactly running the country, but she certainly misled the american people. she decided not to tell him the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the cabinet the extent of his ill health. she decided not to tell the american people the extent it was ill health. she decided that he should not step down. although there was no we didn't have a requirement for that and the vice president was widely seen as week or inconsequential and she continued to insist that he would be able to continue to be service president. she decided which mail he would see she decided which people would come to him. she decided which topics he should take up. she determined the timing of all this and this is all happening in the context of trying to bring a conclusion to world war one. so edith wilson is the is the person that we look back to and say you step too far and and we see this because even during nancy reagan's time when they were intimations that nancy reagan was was too powerful wore the pants in the reagan family too many times journalists at the time called upon edith wilson and suggested in nancy reagan that she was going to make a misstep akin to mrs. wilson's there are many other i mean many many many first ladies who are very powerful, but i think that the answer would probably start with edith wilson. all right, so i'm gonna make this case i knew she would i'm gonna do it. so it's the end of of the war of 1812. been in this war nothing this is the war that shouldn't have even ended before began. they conceded the british conceded don't made me explain it they conceited but we had the war anyway, and at the end of it loss of treasure lives. nothing gained capital burned to the ground. and yet the celebrations of this war this is right at the end of madison the madison presidency and james and dolly go off and a golden glow. in fact, they can't leave town after the inauguration because people just want to give them parties and everybody is celebrating this warm. it's making the americans outbreak gallatin said feel more american than ever. they're jumping with joy. how did that happen? and i would say that it was dolly madison's efforts during the war of 1812 to unify the capital unify the country emerge as the savior of washington city as one of the early stories that just made americans feel pretty darn good about this. and that really was the era of good feelings. i don't have convinced you. i'd go ahead. yeah, i'd put in a plug also for sarah poke and amy greenberg's biography of her is outstanding. i highly recommend it. it's a lady first is the title, but she was essentially the chief of staff. she you know, he as i said had health issues and she was perceived by many as very powerful. she was very savvy she knew how to work her way around washington and followed a lot of the dolly madison getting the right people together. both people on both sides of the aisle respected her, but she would read the newspapers every morning and give him a summary. she worked on his speeches when he was running for governor of tennessee. she was back in his second campaign when he was incumbent governor. she was essentially watching over the governorship while he campaigned and she took a lot of that same practice to the white house so she would give him far more advice and he'd listen to her advice more than some of his cabinet officials. and so she and when she was accused of being too powerful or controlling him, she would essentially say, you know, i'm saving his health she also managed his schedule to try to once again save his energy and so this would be i'm just being a good wife. so she used that domestic sphere as her defense that i'm just looking out for his well-being so that he can be president and do the right things and that was how she deflected some of the criticism but she was essentially a chief of staff to him grace coolidge was much beloved by the american people in large measure because she was a very traditional wife who dressed very well was a very good mother suffered the grief of a death of a child in the white house, but one of the reasons that people like grace college so much is because three first ladies who came before her or why they considered to have had a little too much power. so edith wilson and helen here in taft and florence harding all very powerful first ladies. so grace benefited from that. there is a blowback though, isn't there on this accountability and mike dean elected for the first ladies who come after a first lady who's perceived his powerful whether they want to cut back or not. i think they feel the pressure from the public to do that. we have a question here. yes, i've heard edith wilson referred to as our first female president, and i'm also surprised in this discussion that you haven't mentioned eleanor roosevelt, but that's not my question. my question is political writers and pundits are very free about ranking our best president in our worst presidents, and i wonder if you would go so far as to maybe talk about who are our good first. ladies and who were our worst and i know a lot of people get that. they're not elected. they're thrust into the position and some people rise to the occasion and some don't but i just wonder if you would be involved in ranking or judge that this audience likes trouble. it's a project to work on to be sure i didn't want to take the chairs prerogative, but i will speak about eleanor roosevelt. anyone here from hyde park. well, i'll tell you another site story. then my upcoming book will be on the political relationship between john kennedy and eleanor roosevelt. and we could have a discussion on the power of first ladies after they leave the white house because so many of them had continuing power or maybe even more power but after they left the white house and certainly eleanor roosevelt would fall into a category such as that, but she was was let's put it this way very influential on our topic today if for no other reasons the longevity of her time in the white house because of her husband's 12 years there, but i became interested in this particular topic at the site at the hyde park side. i had not been there until 2010 and of course i went through the main house where fdr was born and i didn't i didn't realize i had a personal relationship with him as i have felt with president kennedy because of my mother taking me to see him and yet i had all these stories that had collected from my parents and my aunts and uncles about coming along in the depression and what fdr and eleanor roosevelt meant to them. and so the ranger the park ranger was taking us through the mansion and we turned a corner and he said this is the room where franklin roosevelt was born and i burst into tears a very embarrassing to my friend who was accompanying me because i was sobbing on his shoulder, but then we went to val kill to see mrs. roosevelt's home that she had built in part to have her own life and let's face it to get away from her domineering mother-in-law and i saw this picture of president kennedy then candidate kennedy coming out of the valquil living room eleanor lead in the way with these brilliant bright smiles and yet i knew they had a problematic relationship politically and so i wanted to study that so that will be my next book, but certainly you would have to put her at or near the top in terms of influential not only again during her first ladyship all of the work that she did in so many fields you've already mentioned we did mention her. relation for example to civil rights. she was always telling her husband, you know, please get the anti-linching bill through congress and yet we have to say we've said sort of the negative of they're not being elected and accountable but in some ways that was a problem fdr was saying look i have to run and i also have to keep on my side the two-thirds of the senate and the house who are southern democrats and in order to get my new deal legislation pass through i can't put them off by supporting the anti lynching bill. so sometimes the first ladies have that advantage of not having to worry about being on the ballot and then sometimes they can't do what they want because they're not on the ballot. but anyway, we'd have to put her up there and then to have led as our really our in some ways our first ambassador to the united nations when it was founded after husband's death after the war after world war two the declaration of human rights the universal declaration of human rights and then i'll give her a out because in a way she helped jack kennedy be elected because they buried the hatchet at a lunch at valkil in august of 1960 and they didn't bury it in each other. so they yeah they came to common ground as we talked about last night at the at the wonderful panel, you know, can we not find common ground those were two people in the same party, but had very different backgrounds and very different views and they found common ground and worked with each other and by the way again given that we're in the women's history month president kennedy named mrs. roosevelt to chair his president's commission on the status of women, and that led to having similar commissions on women's rights in the status of women in every one of the 50 states and eventually led to the founding of the national organization of women and what we consider to be the modern feminist movement and eleanor in response to the ranking eleanor on most of the polls that have been taking is number one and we'll stay there and i think the reason we mentioned her as one of the powerful first ladies. i think we were thinking of it more in terms of directing the president or like you said usurping wilson, but she redefined what a first lady could be. and that's why i think she's up there at the top. she was the first really activist first lady. she showed how she could go out and really promote what her husband was doing. she was his eyes his legs his ears and so in that sense, it wasn't her own agenda. she was really furthering his and providing him with that feedback from around the country that he couldn't personally get because of his physical limitations and i think i think you brought this up, but we're successfully avoiding her questions. so we have heard it. we are now sidestepping it but i do i do think looking at what a first lady does afterwards because they sometimes wake up to their power and i would include mrs. laura bush in that and incredibly active post first lady lady. yeah, yes. i mean so there we go. we'll be seen her this evening, right? yes next question. thank you very much for all of your insight when i think about the influence that first lady may have i think about the resources that the first lady may need to make that influence. so, can you talk about how the the budget for the first lady has involved over the years? we yes, we may need to call it in here. maybe it's there isn't one there. hadn't been one or even office space or anything else like that. you know, the east wing is a relatively new phenomenon within the white house from a physical space edith roosevelt was the first to actually hire someone to work for her and then for many years they were conscripting people from other departments to help out and agencies, but you know people are shocked when i i do a lot of public lectures on first ladies for both students and other groups and they're all they say. well, how much does the first lady get paid, you know zero and and they're stunned. it's like well, but it's a full-time job. yes, either throws about higher the first social secretary, but she did. pay for the caterers out of her own pocket. you know, what, would you rather do right the letters or make the meals? anita would be a wonderful person to talk to you about that the money actually she'd be our best expert. yeah. hi, thank you so much for this discussion this afternoon. it's my understanding that eleanor roosevelt. really didn't enjoy the public eye at first and somewhat struggled with. with having that that public persona and getting involved, but then she she really made a breakthrough and became one of our most remembered first ladies. my question is are there other first ladies who had a similar struggle like that and then made that breakthrough and were able to make some really important. changes in their experience well, there were several who? had at least many years before the presidency to take care of some of that both bushes. i think laura bush did not expect to be married to a politician and barbara bush was terrified of public speaking and the way she developed on the communication person. so i really study a lot about what they do with their public speaking, but she she would do slide shows when she would go back to texas. she would take her children around all the monuments when he was in congress, and she developed her public speaking skills from doing slideshows back in texas so that she had a crutch and they were looking at her lady bird johnson sabotage being valedictorian of her high school graduating class. she purposely got a bee in a class so that she wouldn't be so she wouldn't have to give a speech. and she took a public speaking course with a group of other senate wives and that was how she got over it and she wasn't excited when she married linden. i mean many of these women came into this reluctantly but then saw because they had a public service commitment that this was something that was very important to the country and that they could make a real contribution. so they overcame fears of public speaking they overcame, you know the fear of being out there in the public is all in a roosevelt and so many of the other ones did but it's really more common. we had a few wives actually prayed mrs. pierce that her husband wouldn't win because she didn't want to get involved in most first ladies said they didn't want to be first lady and and some of them that were sort of duped along the way it was joe biden who said to jill nothing will change nothing will change for you when you marry me and of course eleanor roosevelt, i think we could say started out as an introvert. but she had to become available to be her husband's legs when polio afflicted him in the early 20s. and so that's when she started really going out to speak in that case for him or keep his name out in public and really took lessons from louis howe his his great political advisor and then because she had done that she actually took public speaking lessons. she began writing to president kennedy once he was in the white house and told him he needed to see a public speech expert to improve his public speaking. what did ted sorensen i don't think she can play she didn't complain about the speech content. she wrote a very complimentary note about his inaugural address, but later on she said you do need your throat is too tight. hello. my name is jill scotty, and i'm the superintendent of jimmy carter national historical park. thank you and i want to say something that i say about 10 times a day mrs. carter's name is pronounced rosalyn. she's named after her aunt lynn and her cousin rose and i always tell people remember rose garden rosalind, so wanted to just make that clear. thank you. thank you. well, thank you very much barbara if you would allow me to say something in the minute we have left. yes have one minute and catherine wishes to speak. um, it's been this has been wonderful and i've done several of these programs for the white house historical association, and i've been in the first lady game about 25 years and what's been amazing for me is to see how it's grown as a field of study. it started to be an almost like compulsive focus on biography and it really wasn't clear really why you should care about a particular first lady. some of them were fascinating some of them weren't none of them plan to be first lady pretty much and it's grown from that to actually being an intellectually sophisticated category of analysis. we're looking at first ladies. tell us something about women about power about american. tree and the white house historical association has played such a large part in that and it shouldn't be surprising. it was founded by our first lady, but the truth is understood there has been a real focus on first lady studies taking it seriously obviously having anita mcbride as the leadership in the organization has sharpened that and it has been my pleasure to sit with these women and other women over the years and watch this field grow. you've mentioned flair and flair which tell us what is this again? first lady is association for research and education. it's brand fairly brand new and it really i would say it is that it is the child of the white house historical association's focus on first lady, so i just want to thank you anita and stuart wherever you are, but thank you so much. thank you. thank you. >> please welcome our honored guest, speaker nancy pelosi, accompanied by kevin mccarthy, sean clyburn, marco rubio, jared kathy castor, michael waltz, frederica wilson, president nancy r lumet and lawrence m drake the second.