defeated president incapable of accepting the fact of his loss. with the gop paving the way for trump's lies, standing up for the truth falls on public servants like chris krebs. he was fired for doing his job and refusing to participate in the president's big lie that the election was hacked. >> there is no foreign power that is flipping votes. there's no domestic actor flipping votes. i did it right. we did it right. this was a secure election. >> krebs appeared on "60 minutes" last night and inspired another round of rage viewing from donald trump, who is holed up in the white house ranting and fuming about his loss. "the washington post" in a stunning piece of reporting from the weekend, writing that his isolation at this point resembles that of a mad king. quote, the facts were indisputable, president trump had lost, but trump refused to see it that way. sequestered in the white house and brooding out of public view after his election defeat, rageful and at times delegal yus in a torrent of private conversations, trump was, in the telling of one close adviser, like mad king george, muttering, "i won', i won, i won." however clear-eyed aides may have been to his loss of president-elect biden, many of them indulged their boss and encouraged him to keep fighting. they were happy to scratch his itch, this adviser said. if he thinks he won, it's like, shh, we won't tell him. and while the republican secretary of state of georgia retuesdayed to be corrupted by georgia and local elections officials declined to deny the will of the voters in their states and judges hearing the prif louse lawsuits brought by the trump team have laughed them out of court and scolded them on the way out the door, republican elected officials are still carrying the mad king's water. >> you think the president should officially concede? >> well, i -- i understand the legal reason why he should not, because he has some appeals that are going, so, i recognize that, but beyond that, it's president-elect biden. >> we had problems all the way back at the primary. we had investigations going on. now we've got more investigations. we need to get to the bottom of it and hold people accountable. >> i don't think it was rigged, but i do think there are some things that were done that shouldn't have been done and i think there was some element of voter fraud, as there is in every election, but i don't have any reason to believe that the numbers are there that would have made that difference. >> it was not rigged, there was no voter fraud, there are no more appeals and there's nothing to investigate. so, for all the americans desperate to turn the page on trumpism, the refusal to acknowledge joe biden's win is causing significant damage to those of us who live in reality. including to our children. "the washington post" reports on west virginia social studies teacher and his struggle against disinformation in his classroom. quote, never before, cruey said, has he seen such a high level of emotion from children, such blind devotion to their frommer iffed candidate, most often donald trump. nor has he seen anything like this level of mistrust, which he said is persisting among students weeks after the results of the election supposedly were finalized. donald trump poisoning the public's faith in our elections is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. michael steele, former rnc chairman and msnbc political analyst is here. also joining us, jonathan swan, reporter for axios, and yamiche yacindor. michael, i have talked to people that have tried to reality of the loss, people who have been in the political arena and i'm sure you have a lot more insight than i do, but what is the state of the effort to introduce the reality into the president's world view? >> well, the way it typically happens is, trump has a conversation with these aides in which he'll -- you know, i'll give you one example, i was talking to a senior administration official last week and they were part of what was supposed to be a policy conversation with the president but it was actually impossible, because he was getting sidetracked, you know, every other breath, talking about the dominion conspiracy theory and everything else. so, he is still on this idea of, you know, the election was stolen and fraud, but in the next breath, he'll say, well, it doesn't matter, i'm going to run in 2024, no one will beat me, et cetera, et cetera, so, he has actually processed reality on some level, but it's sort of irrelevant, because what he's doing publicly, as you described at length in your introduction, is, he is still -- and there are tens of millions of people that believe him, he is still telling them that election was stolen, even his own government is making now preparations for the incoming min stray and is acting like a government and an iner circle that's known its lost. >> you know, jonathan, in your tremendous interview with the president, you were in this role of introducing reality, in terms of data, scientific information about the pandemic and intelligence, it's been reported on about russia, to him, and i wonder if you could just offer your analysis of what you thi think -- what percentage of his mind do you think accepts the reality that this was a decisive defeat, free from fraud, that -- if you understand the way ballots are counted, there is no way that you can get away with cheating, because they are paper ballots. so, even if you think there was cheating, and chris krebs explained this on "60 minutes" last night, someone who was fired for securing our election and not allowing fraud -- can you explain what that collision of reality, the reality is, there was no fraud, republicans are saying nothing, none of that is real. it's just a man who cannot come to grips with the fact that he lost decisively. >> well, one thing that i was surprised with is there is actually a line that can be crossed in terms of the level of conspiracy theory. so, you know, it's okay for rudy giuliani to say there's mass freud everywhere, et cetera, but apparently the line, you know, which -- that cannot be crossed is to say, actually, this is an international conspiracy involving hugo chavez, venezuelan front companies, the cia, bribes to republican-elected officials to throw elections to communists. that was apparently a bridge too far for president trump and they sort of pushed sydney powell off to the side. but everything else is in his mind acceptable. i have no way of knowing what he truly believes. i can tell you, he is privately saying no different, in terms of saying the fraud, it's fraud, i won, it was stolen, i haven't -- i've been talking to people ever since the election who were in conversations with him in his inner circle and i'm yet to identify a single conversation in which he said, oh, actually, i think i legitimately lost. he, to my knowledge, has never said that privately. >> michael steele, this matters and i am as interested in moving on from donald trump as anybody, but when you read the story in "the washington post" and i think we all know this in our own lives, trump has convinced his voters of the most dangerous lie yet. it was dangerous when donald trump told everyone that reporters like jonathan and yamiche are the enemies of the people. it was dangerous when donald trump told people he believed vladimir putin over the american intelligence agencies. it was dangerous when he tweeted threats against andy mccabe and his wife and jim comey. it is always dangerous when he lines to his voters, but it is creating an unprecedented and perhaps unsustainable instability to make his supporters, to make half of this country doubt the validity of joe biden's victory. >> nicolle, the way you led into this conversation was so expertly done and touched on a number of chords that resonate in the question. and i think we have to step back a moment and say that donald trump didn't have to do a lot of convincing here. donald trump didn't have to do a lot of lying to the supporters. he picked a scab in which they already believed a lot of this. it was beneath the surface. it has been there for a long time, this -- this overwhelming sense of mistrust of our institutions and our executive and political leadership. it's been there. we've seen it. it manifests itself during my watch during the rnc, it was in place during the bush years. it goes back to newt gingrich's uprising in the house of representatives back in 1994 and even before that. so what donald trump was able to do was to give it legitimacy, to give it voice, to give it actual voice in the body of the president, in the body of the presidency. and i think we have to understand that this is so much less the work of the mad king than the mad king actually reflecting his mad people. and by that, i mean angry, frustrated. suffering victimhood and all of that. so, i -- you know, there's a lot that we want to put in donald trump's doorstep and deservedly so, but i think we also have to contextualize where a lot of that originated from, not with him, but what makes what he's done so bad is that he is the president and most presidents, all presidents, up to him, understood that this was there, but still guided the country away from that. did not give into those feelings and tried to address them in other ways. this president said to hell with that, we're all in on it. and here we are. 70-plus million votes later. >> michael steele, i understand the how, what i don't understand is the why. because this isn't just, you know, an anti-elite world view, stick it to the mainstream media, they're out to get us. this is a lie. it is a lie. and i don't understand why roy blunt goes along with the lie. i don't understand why asa hutchinson says, oh, we got to let this play out. there's nothing to play out. judges appointed by democratic and republican presidents have thrown every lawsuit out. kelly loeffler said that we have to let the investigation finish. there is no investigation. there was no fraud. no widespread fraud, no foreign conspiracy, there was no fraud. the recounts have turned up votes that are by and large exactly in line with the vote on election day, so i understand the how and i understand that long-standing institutional distrust. i don't understand the why. why are republicans willing to sell their soul for a big lie? >> because they're afraid of the realities of it. they're afraid of the very people that they have sold this lie to. this goes back -- look. you have broken promises. these are folks, and i've had these conversations where they've had, you know, you guys lied to us about overturns roe versus wade, you lied to us about, you know, unfettered spending and that you wouldn't engage in that and on all of these things -- now, albeit, trm drm is, you know, had a share in that lot of that, but here's the rub, for those individuals you named, those elected officials, they're afraid of those people behind donald trump with their pitch forks. that's why they do what they do. that's how they perpetuate the lie, instead of coming out and speaking to the why. and here's the example of it. georgia. so, the lie -- >> yeah. >> and the conceit has been, oh, you know, vote by mail is bad and they all bought into that, right? why? because they thought it would serve a particular narrative that would leave them unscathed. but now, they need those very voters to vote by mail and they don't believe them. and that's the problem. >> yamiche, georgia is going to bring all of this into sharp relief for all of us, to see how voters have processed all of this disinformation from the president and a lot of his supporters, as well as standing up for the truth, which are also trump-backed republicans in the state, the governor and the secretary of state, their lives are threatened. i want to show you more of the "60 minutes" interview from chris krebs last night. let's watch and we'll talk about it on the other side. this is him being asked about rudy's press conference. >> as you watched rudy giuliani's news conference at the republican national committee headquarters, what were you thinking? >> it was upsetting, because what i saw was a apparent attempt to undermine confidence in the election. to confuse people, to scare people. it's not me. it's not just us. it's the tens of thousands of election workers out there that had been working nonstop, 18-hour days, for months, that are getting death threats. for trying to carry out one of our core democratic institutions? an election? and that was, again, to me, a press conference that i just -- i didn't make sense. what it was actively doing was undermining democracy. and that's dangerous. >> yamiche, chris krebs is not some deep state actor, he went to work in the trump administration, political appointee, nonpolitical job, as lots of national security posts are. has there been any background filled in on why he was fired and why the president continues to be soer talted by him simply affirming that he secured our election and spared it from foreign interference? >> well, president trump has been really open about why krebs was fired, and it's because he went against the lie that the president is telling that the election was stolen from him. christopher krebs decided that he wanted to risk everything, including his career and his job in order to tell the american people, no, in fact, the integrity of this election should not be questioned. in fact, people were given a proper way to vote and a proper means to vote and this election went by and large went without a hitch in terms of the way things happened. the thing that christopher krebs is taking in is this idea that rudy giuliani is doing the thing we were preparing when we thought it was going to be russia and china and iran and all these places that were going to come into the united states and try to convince the american people not to believe in the institutions of merge. in fact what it is is the president of the united states himself doing that. so, what christopher krebs is trying to describe there is a disinformation campaign playing out before our eyes, with the white house and with the president's allies being these center people who are doing this and so the president fired christopher krebs because he didn't want to go along with the lie. and it goes back to what michael was just saying. there is this feeling, when i talk to republicans, that they're very scared of the voters that believe donald trump. they want these people to continue to be republicans, to continue to show up in future elections and as a result they don't want to cross the president, who will probably have an outside insfluns in the republican party long after he is -- he leaves office. >> jonathan swan, i'm sure you follow the sort of few profiles in standing up to the president and in some instances, they're just people who have already been to war with him and lived to tell. john bolton is one of them. and while he is still a die hard conservative, he has been speaking out since the election about the dangers to our democracy and he writes this. rather than aligning with principle, which trump lacks, long-standing conservatives torqued themselves uncomfortably to support his positions. this sun natural and unwise and we must stop it. is there any conversation happening around protecting local elected republicans whose job it is to certify the votes in their state ahead of most of that certification is early this week and the whole vote is certified at the beginning of this month. is there any concern that by targeting these people by name in places where they don't have motorcades and secret service protection, that they're endangering some of these officials, fellow republicans? >> well, some of these state officials have talked about that openly, i mean, they're having to get security, simply for doing their job and so yes, not only have these conversations had to happen, but steps have had to be taken to protect them physically, which is chilling. it is remarkable to me at this point so far after the election that we haven't seen more -- i did think by this point we would have seen more elected officials congratulate joe biden, describe him as the president-elect and it is remarkable, i mean, i know we keep, you know, it's been one of the themes of the last three and a half years of, you know, donald trump controlling the party and dominating the party and people being afraid to cross him but it really is quite striking that that persists this deep into the lame duck, into the period where you would normally, you know, any normal universe, you would have everyone recognizing joe biden as the president-elect and moving forward. it is quite stunning. >> jonathan swan, i think it is the current standing that no elected republican in a leadership position in the house or senate has acknowledged joe biden's win and donald trump's defeat except liz cheney. is that your reporting? and is there any indication they ever will? will joe biden ascend to the presidency with the other party not giving him the legitimacy he deser deserves? >> i do think when the electors come together and when the states are all certified that you probably will see a grudging admission from leadership that the results are in and looks like joe biden's going to be the president-elect, but you know, i wouldn't even necessarily bet on that. mitch mcconnell has stayed right away from this. he's worried about this georgia runoff, the two runoffs on january 5. they're in this awful predi predicame predicament, which michael steele described earlier, where you've got -- you've got to motivate the trump voters but at the same time, the president has told them that the election was stolen and it's fraudulent and i don't think there's many things that are more demotivating for a voter than to know that your vote doesn't count because the whole thing's a fraud and it's going to be stolen from you. so, what's happening behind the scenes, when i talk to republicans who are working behind the scenes on these senate races is, they're quite worried -- they need turnout, obviously. it's going to be crucial, and they're quite worried that these conspiracy theories are actually coming back to bite them and could really harm them in these january runoffs. >> jonathan swan, unbelievable state of affairs. thank you for your reporting and spending some time with us. michael and yamiche are sticking around. when we come back, president-elect joe biden changing the game. an all-female communications staff, a diverse group on his economic team. the very latest on the biden transition with 51 days to go until he is sworn in as president. plus, the race for a coronavirus vaccine is on. can't come soon enough. news today that another company is ready to ask the fda for the green light on its vaccine, a critical step that could have two vaccines ready by the end of the year. a live report on just how we make sure all americans can get one. and republicans in georgia, as we've been discussing, with the high wire act in their quest to hold onto the senate. how to ask voters there to put their trust in the same system trump claims is rigged? all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere. it's down to the wire, the team's been working around the clock. we've had to rethink our whole approach. we're going to give togetherness. logistically, it's been a nightmare. i'm not sure it's going to work. it'll work. i didn't know you were listening. a big first today for president-elect joe biden. he will receive his first presidential daily briefing since winning the election. it comes as he continues to build out a team that stands out for its diversity. earlier today, he named key members of his economic team and officially nominated janet yellen as treasury secretary. if she's confirmed, she will be not just the first woman to serve as treasury secretary in this country, but the only person history to have held all three top economic posts in the u.s. government. chief white house economist, federal reserve chair and treasury secretary. and on sunday, joe biden announced the team that will be responsible for speaking on behalf of the administration, it will be led entirely by women, i know most of them. jen psaki as press secretary. our friend karine jean-pierre as deputy white house spokesperson. joining our conversation is ashia mills, former president and ceo of the lgbtq victory since constitute where she led the presidential appointments project for the lgbtq movement. yamiche is still here. i'm so excited about this team of women, this team of moms, this smart and accomplished group who will be not just speaking for the president, which as dana perino had that post, dede myers, but really coming up with strategies for how to communicate with the whole country. joe biden has said he will be a president for all americans, even the ones who didn't vote for him and this team will be responsible, ayesha, for crafting those messages for the president and vice president. what do think? >> well, i think this is fantastic and i want to thank you, nicolle, for leading with resumes, because it is exciting that we have such a diverse cabinet thus far and appointees thus far. i love that it's a bunch of women who are going to be doing the communications strategy. but it is also important to remember that these are women who have a depth of experience. ashley etienne, who you just put up a picture of there, actually ran point for nancy pelosi on the hill for many years as her lead communications person there and she was the person who crafted all of the impeachment narrative and language. you've got a lot of people on the team who know what they're talking about and how to connect with voters, which is a thing that's really important. and yes, i do appreciate that there are a lot of moms. there are women who all walks of life who can connect with and empathize with what we are going through and the conversations we just had at thanksgiving around the kitchen table. so, to be able to communicate in a way that is connected, humanizing and full of life experience, i think is going to be really powerful for this administration. >> and we didn't mention our friend simone sanders is also taking on a very senior role. you know, yamiche, the first team that comes in has the job of not just figuring out how to work together and figuring out how to -- you know, they're going to have to be turning a lot of these functions back on. a press briefing that functions as an information and -- i don't know how to put this delicately so i'll just be blunt, that doesn't function like a segment on fox news in prime time, when they're off from a campaign gig. this is going to be a team of communicators devoted to the job of communicating on behalf of a president and vice president who are doing the country's business. that has not been the job of any of the people that have had some of these titles for this team, this president, donald trump. >> that's right, and this is going to be a team with all their life experience, with all their work experience, with all their diversity and the diversity of thought and racial diversity, as well as gender diversity in terms of their skill set, i think that what we see here is a group of women who are going to have to really build back the credibility of the white house. we for years now, we've seen a press shop that was adversarial with reporters, that was really about, at times lying to reporters, that was about misinformation and spreading disinformation at times. i think they're really going to have to come back and prove, i think, in some ways -- the white house functions as a way of giving real information, accurate information to the american people. i think, of course, the relationship is still going to be tense. it's supposed to be tense between reporters and public figures in the white house, we're going to be asking tough questions, but i think that given the experience that these women have had, i'm thinking of ashley and simone, jen, kate, they are straight shooters. they have not been people who are giving you information that's not wrong. they might be people who don't want to give you information when you're asking, pushing for information they don't want to give out, but there's not this feeling that we're going to be lied to. and i think that is possibly a really, really good thing going in, because there is, of course, going to be that tension with all sorts of hard questions coming their way. >> you know, yamiche, while you were talking, i remember when i was named white house communications director coming off the campaign and into the white house in 2005, in the transition, elizabeth miller, the washington bureau chief of "the new york times" wrote a piece and i think it said, white house aide aims to defrost the briefing room. and of course, i did not have that effect, because a press operation usually takes on the personality of the principle. and one of the personalities of the biden campaign was that it didn't leak. and i always had this pet theory that had something to do, you know, the tone is always set on leaks at the top and i always felt it had something to do with now president-elect biden and vice president-elect kamala harris just not tolerating leaks. what can you tell us about how they sort of fill lof sickly dealing with reporters like yourself? >> well, i can say that obviously reporters are going to be pushing for information, but i think given, again, my experience with most of these women, when i ask them a question, they -- the answer is something that i feel like i can trust that they're answer is accurate. that their answer might not always been forthcoming, there's going to be real questions about transparency and what we can and can't find out, reporters are always going to be pushing to kind of get background information, off the record information, with that big said, i think that when jen takes the stage, takes the podium there, there's going to be this feeling that at least in the beginning, her word has been her bond and that she will be able to start with a credibility that has been eroded. there was this feeling, you might remember, in the first briefing, she said, i will not lie to you. of course that has been really, really complicated, because she has shared information from the podium that we know, in fact, not to be true, but i think there is this feeling, when i think about these women, that they are coming in with this feeling that we can trust them at least in the beginning and i think that really is going to be a relationship that's going to have to be nurtured because there is going to be this question about, how much information are we going to get? reporters are going to want to call everyone in the white house to try to get information. we have seen some of the names of the appointees come out before the official announcements, so, it's going to be a little adversarial, but it's going to be respectful. and that is probably the underlying thing there's been this real lack of respect, if i can be frank, between the reporters and the white house, with president trump and his allies saying they wanted to make the media the opposition party, making us the enemy of the people. when the president himself is going after people and being nasty and being critical of reporters, it goes down the line and you see the relationship there is fractured. so, i don't think joe biden is going to have that same tone with reporters and as a result, you're not going to see, i think, these ladies have that same tone as well. >> you know, ayesha, it is a good microcosm of everything that was wrong with the trump white house. never understanding that this wasn't trump's political operation, this wasn't trump's legal defense fund, this wasn't trump's team to defend him from a special counsel. and you go back and you look at the way mike mccurry dealt with the job, where he offloaded legal questions, you look at the way that that job, that these press functions have traditionally been done and really serious questions get asked by people like yamiche about, i mean, i was in a white house the years and months after 9/11 about whether we were safe, about whether there were imminent attacks, about whether intelligence could be declassified to help people where the threats were to our homeland. they turned this job into a laughing stock. and i stopped airing sarah huckabee-sanders press conferences, because it was gaslighting from a podium with a seal on it that used to meant something. i wonder what you think the hill is that needs to be climbed just to restore the office, to restore the symbols of the presidency, to what they were before trump and his team moved in. >> precisely. the thing that's so exciting about this group of women also is that they don't just simply have the job of relaying what the business of the administration. that, you know, would be fun and nice if that's all they had to do, but the reality is that they're coming in to also be apart of the administration that's going to need to heal america. and everything that trumpism has done was attempted to destroy trust, with the american public and all of our institutions, and certainly the media. so, while he was kind of ba buffoning to celebrate himself and put himself out there in everybody's households, he at the same time was bashing it and wanting americans not to believe anything that the press tells us. well, here's the thing. freedom of the press is certainly important and we, as americans, need to trust the institution so that we can feel comfortable listening to the information, understanding how it effects and shapes our lives and believing again. and so, the charge that everybody in this administration's going to have, but certainly the messengers, which is so difficult, has so much to do with social impact and connecting with communities all across this nation that are far beyond just let me report what the president's going to do tomorrow. that is not an easy feat. i think that this group is up to the task, though. >> aisha, yamiche, i love talking to both of you. thank you for spending some time with us today. up next for us, companies are lining up for regulatory approval of their coronavirus vaccines. good news for sure. but rolling out these vaccines to billions of people around the world will be a herculean task at a scale never even attempted before. jacob soberoff next from one hospital ready to take on that challenge. stay with us. e. stay with us see yourself. welcome back to the mirror. and know you're not alone because this is not just a mirror. it's an unstoppable community. come on jessie one more. it's a race across time zones. come on you two, lets go. a gift for the whole family. so join in now and see your best self in the mirror. ♪ chicago! okay, so, magnificent mile for me! i thought i was managing my moderate to severe crohn's disease. until i realized something was missing me. you okay, sis? my symptoms were keeping me from really being there for my sisters. so i talked to my doctor and learned that's us. (reacting to boarding announcement) humira is for people who still have symptoms of crohn's disease after trying other medications. the majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief in as little as 4 weeks. and many achieved remission that can last. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, ...have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, remission is possible. as coronavirus cases spike all across this country, some good news could be on the horizon. moderna announces today it is seeking emergency fda approval for its vaccine. moderna's ceo says the vaccine could be ready to roll out within 24 hours of approval. moderna joins pfizer as one of two vaccine candidates that could be distributed to americans as early as next month. let's bring in nbc news and msnbc correspondent jacob soboroff, he's in los angeles. cedars sinai was listed as one of the distribution sites for the pfizer vaccine. jacob, talk about what makes a hospital and/or a city a candidate to have this vaccine and does that mean it won't be available in other parts of the country? >> no, it doesn't, nicolle. that's a great question. the centrality, logistically speaking, is why cedars sinai was so well-equipped. they have these ultra cold storage freezers. it's a hospital that's accessible to many people in los angeles. my two kids, as a matter of fact, were born here. we're looking right now at t the -- those cold stoerj freezers. minus 85 degrees celsius and that is required for these pfizer vaccines that we are being sent to chicago by united airlines. and it couldn't come at a more critical time for los angeles. the state of california saw an all-time high in hospitalizations. 7,4 00 people on saturday alone. 2,800 in los angeles. a new stay at home order. you are not allowed to gather in los angeles with people outside of your immediate family. because they have these freezers, they can hold 200,000 doses of this vaccine. this will be one of the primary points, not the only point, but one of the primary points for distribution and that could come as soon as that authorization happens, nicolle. >> jacob, who gets the first vaccines? how do we get one? >> talked to the coo today of cedars sinai, the chief pharmacist here at cedars sinai. first and foremost, the people on the front lines. the nurses, here comes one right now, walking past. there have been people working day in and day out keeping the operations of this hospital going. it serves so many people in los angeles county, the most popular louse county in the country. we're talking about people of advanced age, comorbidities. really, it's all going to be, ultimately, in the details and the county is awaiting guidance from hhs, from the federal government, so, we know for sure, first responders will be up first and after that, they're going to go with the cdc recommendations. >> and we would expect folks in nursing homes and seniors and anyone with immune compromised situations to be ahead of all of us. we will stay on this story. jacob, thank you so much for your reporting on this. it's nice to see you. when we come back, georgia voters head back to the polls in just six weeks. democrats might have a shot at overtaking the senate there thanks to republicans spending their precious time confusing their base voters and undermining american democracy. that story next. if you're on medicare, remember, the annual enrollment period is here. the time to choose your coverage... begins october 15th and ends december 7th. so call unitedhealthcare... and take advantage of a wide choice of plans... including an aarp medicare advantage plan from unitedhealthcare. it can combine your hospital and doctor coverage... with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan... for a low monthly premium or in some areas, no plan premium at all. take advantage of $0 copays on all primary care doctor visits, all virtual visits, and all lab tests. also get $0 copays for preventive dental care, $0 copays for routine hearing exams, and $0 copays for eye exams. plus, free designer frames and prescription lenses. now's the time to look at unitedhealthcare's variety of plans, and let us help find the one that works best for you. ask about ppo plans, too. they let you see any doctor who accepts medicare, without a referral. and pay in-network costs, at home or traveling, when you see doctors in the unitedhealthcare medicare national network. take advantage of $0 copay's on hundreds of prescription drugs - at the pharmacy or by mail. in fact, last year our medicare advantage plan members saved an average of over $7,200. and with renew active, enjoy a free gym membership - with access to an extensive nationwide network of fitness locations now including premium gyms. now more than ever, count on unitedhealthcare to help you get the care you need, when you need it. we can even help schedule appointments or find a specialist. enrollment ends december 7th. call unitedhealthcare or go online today. we make it easy to enroll, too. it's time to take advantage of all the benefits of... the only medicare advantage plans with the aarp name. [sfx: mnemonic] the buck stops with the t secretary of state. he's supposed to run a trusted, free, fair election. david purdue and i have called for him to step down, because georgians have lost faith in our elections here. we can't have that, not in america. that's not fair to georgians who stood in line, waited at the polls. >> that was kelly leffler, one of the two georgia republican incumbents kaunting on votes in her favor in january's senate runoff election while saving face in the dwindling gop fight to convince america and georgia that the 2020 election was a total fraud. which it wasn't. as trump and his allies continue efforts to shame georgia's republican governor and republican secretary of state, still with zero evidence to back their baseless claims of fraud in georgia where biden won by more than 12,000 votes. this ongoing republican clash is threatening to turn off the votes that their party needs to win these two runoffs. "washington post" writes this, quote. therein lies the conundrum. per due and loeffler are traveling with state pleading with voters to turn out on january 5th, effectively asking trump supporters to put their faith in the same voting system their president claims was manipulated. joining us now, robert costa and michael steele is back with us. bob costa, what is going on for the voters who donald trump was pretty popular there and he is now making the two republicans who are elected statewide, governor kemp and the secretary of state, the villains in the story of his defeat. >> nicolle, he is pretty popular there, it's true, with republican voters. it's president-elect biden that's won georgia. and that's indicative of the challenge facing senator loeffler and perdue at this crossroads. they need that trump voter to come out on january 5th. it's about energy, it's about grassroots enthusiasm. at the same time, they're looking at a georgia that's changing. this is not the georgia that elected newt gingrich. this isn't really the georgia that elected brian kemp as governor. you see the stacey abrams coalition rising in the state. the whole play is to try to get president trump to come down and get the white voters in the suburbs of atlanta to come out, but they're going against a rising tide and new democratic coalitions. >> michael steele, i'll save my rude question for you. for you. the two republicans there are tainted with investigative journalism that raise a lot of questions about ethics to put it delicately. they're terrible candidates in a state that as bob said is very much trending toward the democrats. what do you think? >> yeah, but they're trump candidates so it works. i mean, talk about taint. >> it didn't work for trump. >> no, but the point is it worked for the base to robert's point, you got to look at constituency that is being addressed here. it is not the broader stacy abram coalition of voters out there. now governor kemp is looking at that, all right, because he sees what the horizon is for him in the next election. he knows where this goes. so you can't be on the wrong side of that narrative. but for the moment, right now, loeffler and others, and perdue, they're speaking if a very narrow space. and they find themselves caught on a particular hook and that is the one that again that roberts pointed out is that you now need the voters to get excited about an election in which they -- both these candidates were appeared earlier that they now say was somehow tainted or fraudulent, right. they now need them to come back and trust this very same system over seen by a republican governor and a republican secretary of state, even while think call for the secretaries of state's resignation to come out and get behind them and it is a conundrum they can't overcome. and so while the coalition outside of the gop continues to grow, and vote by mail, some over 850,000 i understand requests have been made for that january 5th ballot, right. and you know that is not republicans. >> right. >> because they've been told not to trust that system. >> right. >> what are they going to do? >> right. >> and so here they are asking for people to resign and trying to get the base stirred up another way to get excited about an election that they themselves have painted as fraudulent and not something that they should support. >> bob costa, i don't start a lot of sentences with saying there were a couple of republican heroes or one but secretary of state raffensperger is one, for not, and the bar is low to be a republican hero these days, but for not bending to the pressure campaign from the two republican senators and the president. chris krebs, the national security official in charge of securing the election was asked about georgia on 60 minutes last night. let's watch and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> look at what happened in georgia. georgia has machines that tab late the vote. they then held a hand recount in the outcome was consistent with the machine vote. >> and that tells you what? >> that tells that you there was no manipulation of the vote on the machine count side. and so that pretty thoroughly in my opinion debunked some of the sensational claims out there that i've called nonsense and hoax that there is some hacking of these election vendors and in their software. >> so robert costa, that was such an important articulation for why it is impossible tofr rigged voting machines because when a state or counties count is recounted there is paper and you check to see if the paper matched the machine count and what chris krebs is saying there is that in georgia there was a recounts and it matched the vote. how on earth and on what grounds does kelly loeffler get off saying he should be fired. >> those are baseless statements by senator loeffler. raffensperger said he believes bad actors, his words, are trying to damage the credibility and erode credibility in the election and the challenge now for senator levelloeffler and p is they come from the republican party in georgia. this is a state republican electorate that is not all trump rally goers going just to everything president trump said and echoing it. this is a republican party in georgia that comes out of that atlanta mindset, the tom price republicans and the david perdue republicans, that trace talks like senator perdue and loeffler. i've covered georgia elections with people like raffensperger and that is important in the coming weeks. who did the republican voters actually believe. >> robert costa, what do you think make of the sort of impact or the weight of some of the investigative reporting in your paper and in others about the ethics questions around both senators purdue and loeffler. >> serious questions. more investigations need to be done. and the post will continue to pursue it. whether it is senator loeffler and perdue, making active trades as members of the u.s. senate, it deserves the hottest possible spotlight whether they republicans or democrats because they're elected members of the senate. not necessarily trading on inside information but they have quite a perch inside washington to understand the turn of events. >> it is incredibly swampy, michael steel. it is a definition of a swamp. >> and that is the whole trump experience. the guy to come in to clean the swamp, not only brought fresh swamp water with him but enticed those flinside to play more body and that starts with head. i'm sorry, as say they, the fish rots from the head down and the reality of it is when the president is excusing the constitution requirements around emoluments and don't put up the personal walls to cut off his personal roles from president and he has his children serving in administrative roles while at the same time continue to run the family business. yeah, this is ironic. >> that's one word for it. we will stay on these races in georgia. the last cliff hanger of the 2020 election cycle if you will. thank you both for spending some time with us. it is great to see you. for us, the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere, we're just getting started. arted. not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our members, that's what's right. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. ♪ usaa ♪ i got it all from you ♪ i'm always pushing through ♪ i know we'll make it to the finish line ♪ ♪ i know you're waiting on the other side ♪ ♪ i'm like you on-demand glucose monitoring. because they're always on. another life-changing technology from abbott. so you don't wait for life. you live it. we expect unfortunately as we go for the next couple of weeks into december that, we might see a surge superimposed upon that surge that we're already in. >> we saw what happened post memorial day. now we are deeply worried about what could happen post thanksgiving. if your family traveled, you have to assume that you are exposed and you became infected and you really need to get tested in the next week. >> i want to be straight with the american people. it is going to get worse over the next several weeks. >> hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. and a nation bracing for impact in the wake of the thanksgiving holiday. readying for a coronavirus surgeon top of the one we're already experiencing. virus cases in the u.s. now over 13.5 million with more than 268,000 lives lost. over the past three weeks the u.s. has seen between 120 and 200,000 cases every single day. and no area is safe. "new york times" reports, quote, the u.s. map shows a country where almost every region is a hot spot. states that were once spared like montana and wyoming have reported record deaths and those states pummels are straining anew. but what has health officials even more worries is that those numbers are set to rise following travel and gatherings over the thanksgiving weekend. more from the times, quote. according to transportation safety administration data, 800,000 to 1 million people pass through tsa checkpoints in each day before and after the holiday, far lower than the same period last year. but likely far higher than epidemiologists had hoped to see. it it is a frightening thoughts when hospitals are pushed to their limits. according to the covid tracking project, in the past two weeks hospitalizations are up more than 36%. right now 93,000 americans are hospitalized with covid. at the marrow clinic in wisconsin, one top doctor there called an open bed a gift and added, quote, i'll take all of them. meanwhile the president has been holed up in the white house since election day. leaving americans alone to dig themselves out of this devastation that his virus policy has brought. he has made only six public appearances since november 3rd and the one window we have floor his thoughts, his twitter feed reveals a complete preoccupation with his lies an fraudulent lawsuits designed to over turn his defeat. over the holiday weekend, he tweeted or re-tweeted about the election results 42 times and how many times did he tweet about the virus you wonder, three. the nation approaching holiday season with spiking virus cases overwhelm hospitals and a president who is m.i.a. is where we start this hour with lori garrett, and a pulitzer prize winning journalist, also joining us dr. lipi roy and msnbc medical contributor and our friend john heilman is back, nbc news and msnbc national analyst executive editor of the recounts and host of the hell and high water podcast with other news that we'll get to at the end of the segment. but i start with you, lori garrett, and the losing battle against the pandemic. where are we and where are we heading? >> we're in very bad shape, nicolle. we were in bad shape even back in september before this whole third surge started. at that point, according to a newly published study, about 10% of samples submitted for medical diagnosis for noncovid reasons came up positive for covid antibodies. so that is kind of a rough way of saying about 10% of americans, not evenly distributed across the country were already infected before the surge started and now with the surge, we're seeing infection rates coming back on tests every single day that range as high as half in some states are coming back positive. we're over 200,000 new cases every day. and a brand-new centers for disease control forecast that pools the estimates in about 30 different models, executed across the united states and in different study centers says by december 15th, that week we could look at an additional up to as many as 3 million new cases in the country. >> you know, lori, i always want to ask you science-y questions but i end up with the psychological questions of why can't we do this? and i guess the specific question for you is i have thought that the news about vaccines from pfizer and moderna would make it easier for americans to sort of gurd themselves for the long dark winter knowing there was hope on the other side of the winter season perhaps in this the spring and spring vaccinations. do you think that news of the vaccine has people moving the other direction or what is behind the defiance of the few things that we could do to protect ourselves. >> really good question. because it is one all of us have been scratching our heads about it. i did all of the math and crunched the data from the tsa and triple-a and other sources and close to 8 million americans defied all recommendations to stay home and have traveled between last sunday and this sunday putting a huge burden on all of our systems and certainly increasing the likely load of spreading. for as dr. fauci has put it, a surgeon top of a surge. so that in a sense we'd had a fourth wave occurring right on top of a third wave. why is this happening? well, i think there are several things. i think that the vaccine good news has been misinterpreted by very many people to that there is a vaccine for every american just around the corner and that is not true. >> yeah. >> if you're very lucky and you're part of that first group designated to receive vaccines, there may be a sort of dose level available between now and new year's to satisfy about 10 to 15 million people. remember, you have to take two doses. so when you hear the numbers, cut them in half. we won't see large scale vaccination rolling out across america until well into the spring. so we need to build a bridge. and we need a bridge that gets us from today to that, you know, point when americans could get vaccinated. and that bridge is really scary. it is not really there. it doesn't really exist. if you haven't added anything on to the recommendations that government has been making for many months. and there are not any must weapons in the toolkit. so it is all about america. when will you take this message seriously, when will you wear those masks, and avoid all of those occasions and the problem is if there is anything that we all want to do during campus time, during the hanukkah, during thanksgiving, this whole holiday season right up to new year's eve, it is be with people we love and lot and jump up and down and scream and hug and drink champagne together and do all of the things that are very intimate. an it is just too dangerous this year. >> you know, and dr. roy, i read "the washington post" story they were allowed inside the mayo hospital system in wisconsin and eau claire, wisconsin, and you'd think that if in your community members of your community were dying alone, with an overwhelmed nurse staying and holding your hand until you take your last breath on earth, and then getting up because she had to go do the same thing for someone else's mom or dad in the next room in another bed. you think that those stories happening in your community would have the impact of changing our behavior. but it is not. and i guess i wonder, you read about these world class hospital systems that simply can't take care of everyone they're sent, when hospitals send the ambulances away and don't even take patients. what are we looking at if we have what dr. fauci and lori predict is the surgeon t on top of a surge. >> it is good to be with you. and you're raising such critical issues right now. look, i just want to follow up on what lori just said. what we're talking about right now, not only is it not rocket science, it is really simple and the beauty of it and the truth of it is if every state mandated a mask it would save so many lives. we have studied that the states have that mandated masks have fewer cases. kansas released data showing that the counties that mandated masks there was a 6% reduction in cases. and 100% increase in all other counties. and public health measures actually work, nicolle. we have evidence of this. when we -- when tobacco cessation was resulting in less tobacco abuse and less respiratory diseases in asthma in children because of less secondary hand smoke. we'll see a real instance of just my fellow health care workers and doctors and nurses facing the pain. we're already seeing that. but over the course of the next four to eight weeks, two or three months actually, it is going to really get worse. as a doctor who is worked hours, ten, 12, 30 plus hours in the hospital every third, fourth night, it is hard seeing a parents struggle to breathe. it is hard seeing a patient with chest pain because of coronavirus. it is hard telling a patient and frankly telling their loved one and now by ipad that their loved one is not going to make it. and right now, doctors and nurses are the family members. in addition to their professional roles, they are now the ad hoc informal family members conveying this news. and not just to covid patients, but now so many other people with other chronic illnesses who are unfortunately not being turned away from hospitals. this is preventible, nicolle. it really is. we need leadership at every state level, at the federal level and we need fellow citis to really take this seriously and do what is best for one another as well as themselves, nicolle. >> you know, john, listening to dr. roy and lori talk, i just keep thinking that we are not the country that we used to be. we are not the country that we think we were. i think of all of the things that we asked americans to do after 9/11. take off their shoes, throw away their $7 bottle of fiji water before they get on an airplane and subject themselves to invasive pat downs all in the name of making it safe to get back on airplanes because we were told that subsequent bombs make come in the form of a liquid or in someone's shoe. i do not -- i understand that some people need to move around in their community or go to jobs i don't understand the defiance of a mask or a picture of a bar half a mile from a hospital where people are crowded around indoors drinking, where do you think the fracture is in our politics or leadership that we couldn't do the few things that are known to protect us and our communities from covid? >> oh, boy, that is a big question, nicolle. that is not a true/false question, that is a essay question. hi, good to see you. happy thanksgivings. i hope your thanksgiving was good with your family and stuff. yeah. >> i have food because nobody was here. yeah. >> i know. i know. it's really deep, this fracture. and we've all been thinking about it and talking about it. now for nine months, i think about the -- you just cited 9/11, i lived in london for a period of time when the ira was in the middle of a bombing campaign and the british were having to deal with regular closures of tube stops because there were bomb threats like once a week or so for about a year when i lived in london. i think about what the british went through during world war ii and i think about countries that have -- [ inaudible ] than this. this is a hard thing. it is not the hardest thing. even though nurn our lifetimes people have had to live through in terms of threats and in terms of shared national mutual sacrifice and i think there is a deep fracture in the country in how we understand reality now. i'll talk about trump in a second. but i do think this notion that we live -- we have different realities and different understanding and we have different beliefs and different basis for what we think is fak you'll in the world. these are profound -- [ inaudible ]. you know, the deepness and the depth of this fracture that we are experiencing that this pandemic has made clear, has laid bear in a way that even all of our political struggles and our polarize is africa tation, gap between the blue and red, this has laid it bare how deadly it is and then i come to trump, right. what you need in these situations is you need someone to stand up and say, we are all -- we have a lot of differences because we're all going to pull together and understand the nature of the threat and i'll be honest with you and lay it bare, i'm not going to turn this to my political advantage or drive the divisions deeper or create a culture war around science or mask wearing, around common sense. but we had instead a president would did all of those things and now after four years of behavior that you and i have discussed at great length in our upset about it and how disgusting what the president has done, a lot of his lies and his ignorance and his hate spreading and all of that, in some ways what he's doing now is the worst thing he's ever done. because to spend this time in the middle of this surge that is so pap panelly all around us, the surge on top of the surge and to check out public discourse and basically say i don't care, how many of you die, i'm going to go golfing and the only time i pop up is not to -- not to exhibit any lapse of leadership, i'm going to pop up to poison the body of politics with more lies and conspiracy theories about the election. i thought i had seen the worst of donald trump. many times over the last four years. but i really think people have said there is fno bottom. i think we're there. this is the bottom the way he's behaving in the face of this pandemic. >> you know, lori, i think about when i was in the white house, there was fear of the avian flu and precipitating a global pandemic and we prepped on saturday, george w. bush was focused on the threat and tony fauci was revered and inspired some of the preparations and i don't remember ever factoring in that half of the country won't believe there was a threat of a global pandemic from the flu and i ran communications for the grills and it never happened, it didn't happen on our watch, tragically it happened on donald trump's, but i wonder if scientists or people like dr. fauci or deborah birx factors in the notion that sticking a mask on somebody's face would be a highly political statement and going to rallies would become an act of communal defiance. i wonder if any of the model for how we're doing so much worse than anyone else have to take into account that donald trump refused to lead the country in a way that would suggest he has any interest if protecting anyone? >> well, nicolle, when you were in the white house, president george w. bush initiated the most dramatic, boldest foreign aid/emergency plan for aids relief and that has brought life to millions of people, mostly in sub saharan africa who would have perished from aids. tomorrow is worlds aids day and in a so-called normal year we would have had a white house ceremony, you see the red ribbon on the white house lawn that is a reminder about hiv. well now we have 63 million covid cases in the world and because of this burden of covid worldwide, all of the ancillary disease treatments are falling apart. measles, mull aria and tuberculosis and hiv because people are afraid to go to health service and health services are so disrupted by the burden on the the health care workers to deal with the coronavirus, that there is in adequate attention and ability to handle the other burdens of disease. and so i mean just today, the world health organization said we need somehow to revive the entire global malaria program. we're suddenly seeing surges there. i think one of the things that we're seeing in addition to this great divide that john was just talking about, is we're also seeing that some of the great heart and soul of americans, that made us the great generous ones on the planet, that brought global health programs and funded them all over the world, somehow that is also disappearing. that is also fading away. so that we're no longer, you know, great beacon of hope the planet but the great sad disaster of the planet, both in how we are handling our own epidemic and inability to maintain attention to the health needs of the poorest of the poor in the rest of the world. >> wow. you have blown my mind as you are apt to do, lori garrett. we'll stay on that. i think about that in my own life and my son hasn't been to the pediatrician and i haven't been to the doctor so it is happening in our household so it is happening on a global scale. thank you four bringing attention though that. lori and dr. lipi roy, thank you. john heilemann had some technical glitch that's we're working out in the era of zoom and home studios. ee he'll be back. when we come back, donald trump is suggesting his hand picked heads of the fbi and justice department are out to get him. the latest presidential airing of grievances brought to by his friends at fox oobdser or what is left of them. and fantasy and failure, that is a headline from "the washington post" over the weekend. chronicling donald trump's desent into trying to do the impossible, over turn the results of an election he clearly lost. and with much of the republican establishment staying silent on the outgoing president's fraudulent claims of election fraud, a small group of local and state wide elected republican leaders resisted and persisted in staying true to the will of the american people and our democracy. we'll cover that story. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. d'shea: i live in south jamaica, queens, born and raised. i'm a doordasher, i'm a momma with a special needs child, she is the love of my life. doordash provides so much flexibility. if something happens with her, where i need to be home, i can just log out and just say "okay, my family needs me." i don't have to answer to nobody. i don't want to be nobody's employee. i do what i want, i'm independent. independent lady. that's what i like about it. [what's this?] oh, are we kicking karly out? we live with at&t. it was a lapse in judgment. at&t, we called this house meeting because you advertise gig-speed internet, but we can't sign up for that here. yeah, but i'm just like warming up to those speeds. you've lived here two years. the personal attacks aren't helping, karly. don't you have like a hot pilates class to get to or something? [ muffled scream ] stop living with at&t. xfinity can deliver gig to the most homes. could doj investigate. >> missing in action. can't tell you where they are. i asked are they looking at it. everyone said yes,er th they're looking at it. you would think if you're in the fbi or the department of justice, this is the biggest thing you could look at. where are they in? i've not seen anything. they just keep moving along and go on to the flext president. they've been there for a long time. people don't understand there. they've been there for a long time. >> that was president trump who went on fox news on sunday for what was called an interview. but it was really something different. more like just muttering in your recliner but it was on tv. but it is important to note what he said there. he suggested that federal law enforcement isn't refusing to participate in his fraudulent and doomed attempt to overturn an american election, but he suggested in that thing that they're calling an interview, that the fbi and doj are actively conspiring against him. that is a new level of bat bleep crazy. he said the fbi and doj are, quote, missing in action. as he put it. and it may be because there is no evidence of any fraud or vote tampering or crimes. that might explain why they're not around. national security officials have said that this election was the most secure in our country's history. listen to chris krebs. he's the cybersecurity official who was fired by trump for doing his job and telling the truth. >> we could go on and on with all of the farcical claims that allege interference in the 2020 election. but the proof is in the ballots. the recounts are consistent with the initial count and to me that is further evidence, that is confirmation that the systems used in the 2020 election performed as expected and the american people should have 100% confidence in their vote. >> joining our conversation, former maryland congresswoman donna edwards, also a washington post columnist and phil rucker is here, white house bureau chief for "the washington post" and a msnbc political analyst. phil, let me start with you and we'll talk about your stunning piece of reporting from the weekend in a minute. but i want to ask you about this specific claim. because this is new. donald trump is accusing, i think hugo chavez a week ago who is dead who was in charge of some international conspiracy. but yesterday's conspiracy was that the fbi and doj conspired with who to -- what is the rest of that thought on trump's part that doj and fbi are now somehow conspiring to rig the election against him? >> well, nicolle, the president's allegation there yesterday on fox that was the first i've heard that one from him. we've heard a lot of theories that are not true from this president. but that was a new one. bringing in the fbi and the justice department into it. it is worth pointing out, by the way, that in that hour long monologue on fox news, the anchor of the show didn't correct the record in any way or try to point out to the millions people who might have been viewing that that was nonsense and not true. but that is where we're at right now, in this situation and our reporting shows that the president continues now almost a full month after the election to be talking to aides and advisers and friends and allies or anyone's ear he could bend about how he thinks vote was stolen an rigged and that vote is somehow that people intended to vote for trump and ended up showing up as votes for biden. there is no evidence of that. but it continues to be the preoccupation of the president of the united states. >> donna, in that interview with 60 minutes, it is important to understand, there is paper. so if you allege voter fraud, which donald trump has done now as phil rucker just said for a month, if you wanted to get to the bottom of that you could because there is paper. and chris krebs said where there is a hand recounts, of the paper ballots, it has matched. now we shouldn't have to explain to the toddler who currently occupies the oval office how that works. but it does seem like we may need to explain that to the millions of voters who listen to that nonsense and have some doubts about the legitimacy and integrity of the 2020 election. >> well, okay, i feel like every conversation nethese days i hav to start with joe biden won the election. and there was no fraud. and had there been fraud, there was a way as chris krebs described, of getting to that. you know, nicolle, what also was up underneath this is what has been consistent throughout this presidency and that is that donald trump views the instrumentalities of government, whether it is the department of justice and the fbi and homeland security, as part of his personal cadray of people that are supposed to look out for him personally. and that is what is up underneath this frustration that the frustration is expressing, that, by god, i believe there was fraud, and those people who work for me have failed because they didn't back me up. they didn't have my back. and what the american people should know is, we'll say it again, joe biden won, there was no fraud, there was the most secure election in history. according to the department of homeland security and it is over. >> i think there is a great carrie bradshaw line that is we need it over. and donald trump continues to be in receipt of any of our country's secrets when he leaves office. this is from an nbc report from jack golds smith said he's shown as president that he doesn't take secret keeping terribly seriously. he has a tendency to disrespect rules related to national security and he has a known tendency to like to sell thing that are valuable to him. this seems like it would maybe also include jared kushner, who i think is on route to foreign capital this week, ivanka trump, there were concerns from the cia about both of them background checks but donald trump gave them clearances. what is the preparation for these individuals being out of the government but still possessing the nation's most sensitive secrets? >> well, nicolle, i'm not sure that there is any preparation under way. perhaps there is in the intelligence world and we just don't know about it yet. but it is true that president trump has a record of being indiscrete to describe it with the nation's top secrets. it was only a couple of weeks into his presidency when he blurted out some classified information to the russian ambassador in the oval office. when he was visiting with sergey lavrov and that caused a huge certain within the intelligence community. fast forward to where we are today and he's been gathering secrets about the country's intelligence operations and national security plans and nuclear weapons arsenal for f r years now and as the "new york times" reporting he's leaving office with a tremendous amount of debt. he owes, you know, a lot of money to a lot of people and i'm not suggesting that he might do to try to pay back those debts but it is certainly seeming like a legitimate concern that some in the intelligence world might have that he could potentially try to go down the road that goldsmith was just alluding to. >> might turn out to be a good thing that he didn't read his pdb but obviously as the country's president he knows a lot of super secret stuff. donna and phil are sticking with us. up next, the must read account of trump's nearly three-week long effort to overturn the election based on fraudulent false claims of voter fraud. we'll ask phil about his reporting on the president's bumbling and chaotic attempt to endanger american democracy. that story is next. she needs to. the rules have changed since you rode. how much you want for her? she's not for sale. if they find you, they kill you. jump! johanna! it's hard finding your way home. you can't have her. and i'm taking her home. save for being a new customer, for adding drivewise, and for driving safely. whatever you drive, start driving down the cost of insurance. ♪ the washington post is calling it 20 days of fantasy and failure. that three week stretch between the election, back on november 3rd, thwhich feels like months o and it is one of the most bizarre periods in political history and few publications have been a better john chronicling every back door twist and turn than "the washington post" piece. they assembled terrific reporting based on 32 senior administration officials and campaign aides and advisers and here is what though found. quote, a golf paralyzed by the president president's fragile emotional state and expletive and a per nishs blurring of truth and truth and fantasy and that is behind closed doors but look at what is happening out in the open. this weekend in pennsylvania, two more legal defeats for donald trump an his allies and in one of the instances it was a trump appointed judge who delivered the scathing opinion writing free, fair elections are the life blood of our democracy. charges of unfairness are serious. but calling an election unfair does not make it so. charges require specific allegations and then proof. we have neither here. rear back with one of the authors of that stunning piece of reporting, phil rucker. donna is here as well. phil, it was an incredible piece but i have to say, the mad, mad king george was the one that jumped off the page for me. take me inside what you and your colleagues are reporting. >> well, first of all, thank you for the kind words of the piece. it is a story i did. and we spent the week trying to get to the bottom of what was going on behind the scenes. we didn't see the president for so many days after the election. but we kept hearing about his rages, about his plots, about the fantasies he was cooking up in his mind and what we found is that according to one advise, he was like mad king george ranning i won, i won, even as the states were certifying joe biden as the winner. even as the state like georgia did a hand recount that again showed that joe biden was the winner. trump was losing in court. there was a real feud among the lawyers representing the president in the first few days after the election, there were a lost professional republican lawyers teed up to try to lead some of the legal challenges but a few days into it, it became clear this is a futile effort that is the president's delusions were just that, delusions and he ended up with the legal team of rudy giuliani and jenna alice and sydney powell who have sacrificed their profession professional reputations to push this ahead and continuing to do so as we've seen in arizona today. >> you know, phil rucker, the thing i wondered when i got to the end of it was, you know, trump is the drunk driver, the car he's driving is our democracy. he's trying to crash it. he didn't care who gets hurt. and the people handle him the keys are jared kushner, ivanka trump and mark meadows do those people have any remorse about undermining the confidence that the 70 million people who voted for donald trump have in the legitimacy of an election that has been certified by national security and homeland security officials as, quote, the most secure in american history. >> yeah, you know, they've not shown any remorse, at least as far as we could detect in our reporting. but it is interesting, the people you just mentioned have taken a bit of a backseat here. it ras reported that jared kushner is traveling this week to the middle east. so he is the guy who was leading the trump campaign, the person inside of the white house who was most involved in the president's political operation. he's going to be out of the country this week. so he finds a way to disappear. mark meadows has not been out in public. we've not seen him defending these tactics and these legal challenges and these protests from the president. mnuchin, same thing and not willing to publicly put their necks on line and you could ainclude kayleigh mcenany who is moonlighting as a campaign spokesperson and advancing a lot of the theories on behalf of her boss. and according to one person familiar with this whole operation, he said, look, these people are performing for the audience of one. they're just trying to please the president no matter what it does to them professionally. >> i mean, they're not doing karaoke. they're taking a wrecking ball to our democracy and i think it is remarkable that they think just because they're not the ones with hair dye streaking down their faces that they're going to be not held accountable for the damage that they've done. it is a stunning piece of reporting, phil rucker, thank you to you and your colleagues and sharing it with all of us. still to come for us, republican government officials at the local level, statewide level playing a critical role in standing up to this current white house to uphold our fragile democracy. that story is next. renew active. only from unitedhealthcare. ♪ lift 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i mean these are lies that are as dangerous as a lie in a courtroom is to carries a criminal penalty of perjury. why isn't anyone calling them out? >> more dangerous and plenny of examples of perjury. and i am so happy for secretary of state raffensperger and the others that were mentioned. but the sad part is all they're doing is their job. isn't it crazy that "new york times" now writes a feature story on you if you simply do your job without breaking the law, without advancing a preposterous lie along the way. that gets a profile now. so good on him. but it is insane that this has not been stopped in its tracks. i think that poor foam that watch the network and don't use news max and fox and read right wing media outlets i don't think they talk about dump trucks with millions of ballots dropped off and every hour, three or four five times they're pressuring republican state legislatures to not respect the vote and try to turn over the vote in the electoral college. now this isn't going to happen. but there are millions of viewers that are watching and reading of this, tens of millions people who think this election is being stolen. the long-term consequences of that are grave and the entire republican senate and house is silent. rand paul, send a tweet saying he was intrigued by some of the possibilities that maybe there was a vote switch in these counties. this is madness, nicolle. so congratulations to secretary of state raffensperger, but it is crazy that we have to get down the pecking order to find somebody who did the right thing. >> why are spine to be found in republican elected official in the senate or house? i think only liz cheney is the only member of republican leadership to have acknowledged the result. and let me tell you something, if the shoe were on the other foot, if donald trump had won by, what, 6, 7, 8 million votes and the popular vote, a decisive 300-plus electoral vote win and joe biden had refused to concede. you know exactly what republicans would be doing. they'd be trying to criminalize speech as slander. >> yeah. >> i cannot overstate the asymmetry of how each party fights. and this is a fight that needs to be fought. on the democrats' part because letting this lie stand from donald trump and from the republicans in congress means that joe biden will inherit a country with millions of people who do not think he's a legitimate president. >> yeah. look, the asymmetry is real. i think people forget this, you know, president obama greeted donald trump at the white house, like, two days i think after the election was called. i mean, very quickly. tried to help with his transition. i mean, the reason for this asymmetry, though, nicolle, is it's bottom up. i hate to say it, but this is what republican voters want, and democratic voters just didn't demand these sort of insane lies out of their candidates. and that's what's happening. these republican elected officials are responding to what their voters want. that's why newsmax's ratings are going up. that's why rand paul gets 35,000 retweets when he just spreads absolutely crazy lies. this is -- this is what the republican base is looking for. the republican candidates are still scared of them. they've been scared of them ever since donald trump won the nomination and they didn't understand how he could have won, and so now, you know, they've got their tails between their legs and the only ones that have any courage, which are just, you know, like you said, a couple like liz cheney or, you know, mitt romney, you know, are because they feel secure enough in themselves that they can do this. it's truly madness. >> you know, donna, joe biden's victory was so decisive and so clear that there is nothing at a political or legal standpoint, but there is this mandate that he seems to have for his presidency. he campaigned as someone who was a proud democrat but running to be the president of all americans. and i wonder how you think he navigates something that's obviously still very much on former president obama's mind. he wrote a lot and talked a lot in his book tour about truth decay and trying to govern a country when the information contamination made such large swaths of the american electorate closed off to even hearing the facts around a debate. >> yeah, i do think that this is a tough one, nicolle. you know, joe biden comes out of the old school senate, and the senate that he's -- that he will have at his disposal, even if it has a margin in january for -- for democrats, it will be a slim one, will be navigating those republicans in the senate who have remained silent, even about acknowledging his victory. but i think that joe biden has already demonstrated that he is intent on governing as a president who wants unity. and i think he's not going to let the things that he does in the white house or the way that he presents himself be swayed by these republicans in the senate. but these are going to be tough waters ahead. >> tim miller, donna edwards, two of my favorite people to talk to about all of these things. thank you so much for spending some time with us. when we come back, as we do every day, remembering lives well-lived. health testing you do at home. know your health. know yourself. now, get 40% off at letsgetchecked dot com how did you know? mom...that was taken at the farm. it was in this small little village. in connemara? right! connemara it is. honestly, we went there- oh, oh look at that! look at that. we live in the mountains so i like to walk. i'm really busy in my life; i'm always doing something. i'm not a person that's going to sit too long. in the morning, i wake up and the first thing i do is go to my art studio. a couple came up and handed me a brochure on prevagen. i've been taking prevagen for about four years. i feel a little bit brighter and my mind just feels sharper. i would recommend it to anyone. it absolutely works. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. to save you up to 60%. these are all great. and when you get a big deal... ♪ ...you feel like a big deal. ♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal. so often with grief it is the little things that just stay with you. especially when you lose somebody important. those day to day reminders, they can sting the most. this is rhona goertz. she was a loving grandmother, a kind heart. she died of the coronavirus a few months ago. viewers of our program might know her son-in-law, the editor-in-chief of "the pennsylvania capital star." our friend john writes, he'll miss the meals, the ballet performances, the road trips, the phone calls, the moments in conversation, the way rhona glowed just looking at her grandchildren. on one particular holiday season, quote, to this day, i'm not sure how she managed to bend the laws of physics to fit that many bags of gifts into her car, but it was her granddaughter and it was a holiday and einstein could take a flying leap if he didn't like it. the small moments to remember them can hurt, but john points out they can also be a blessing, a consolation. quote, we'll tell these stories over and over, keeping her memory alive. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber begins after a short break. we'll be right back. ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. for members like martin. an air force veteran made of doing what's right, not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our members, that's what's right. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. ♪ usaa welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. i hope you had a wonderful holiday weekend. we have a lot of news with everything kicking back off on this monday evening. more states certifying their election results. arizona locking in joe biden's win as donald trump's legal team urged the state to simply overturn the results which continues this string of baseless voter fraud claims they've made which have gone reti
if your face, lips, throat or tongue swells. toviaz can cause blurred vision, dizziness, drowsiness and decreased sweating. do not drive, operate machinery or do unsafe tasks until you know how toviaz affects you. the most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. talk to your doctor about toviaz. right now on "andrea mitchell reports" casesing cain. usa today skoopz the white house setting republicans on fire. >> does set things in the wrong direction. >> this is the president torpedoing his own plan, and shows me he is really not serious. >> leaks don't happen in washington by accident. this raises the question that many of us continue to wonder about. does the president really want a result, or does he want someone else to beat up republicans so he can get political advantage in the next election? >> racing to control the damage. the president's new chief of staff. >> we will be prepared in the event that the bipartisan tarp is going on the hill, which, by the way, would very aggressively support. if those do not work out, then we'll have an option that will be ready to put up. >> still haggling over hagel. is he home free, or are republicans trying to dig up another issue before next week's vote? >> i think we're doing our job to scrutinize, i think, one of the most unqualified radical choices for secretary of defense in a very long time. >> spoiler alert. the day after downtown. the season finale that's left us all reeling and weeping. >> andrea mitchell live in washington. republican critics say they are prepared to permit a vote on chuck hagel next week, but his opponents are still digging, digging for anything that could still derail the nomination between now and then. joining me now for our daily fix, washington post columnist ruth marcus, and nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker. welcome both. first to you, ruth. you've talked -- you've written a lot about hagel and about the ted cruz fell nonnon, and all of the piling on. we now hear in the weekend interviews that there's going to be an interview and they expect it to go through, john mccain and others are going to vote against. we had the votes in terms of the cloture vote on friday, on wednesday, rather, in terms of having 58 votes, but now what is this whole issue of the rutgers speech? >> i think it's all about sort of desperate search to find something. usually when you are asking questions about a nominee, and i'm a really big dlooefr believer in oversight and the advisory process, but usually you have a reason to think there's someone there. this is just scouring the kitchen cabinets and seeing if you can find any little dust balls any place, and i think they are just -- you and i have seen it so many times. if you can run out the clock enough, maybe something will come up, and this is just sort of playing for that end of the football game moment of something turning up. he will be confirmed, and i have to say i don't think he performed well at all, to put it mildly, in the hearings. i also think especially this last stretch makes republicans look terrible also. >> let's look at lindsey graham yesterday talking about the rutgers speech and what more could come up. >> allegedly senator hagel said that the u.s. state department was an adjunct of the israeli foreign ministers office, which i think would be breathtaking if he said that to have such a view. i got a letter back from senator hagel in response to my question, did you say that and do you believe that, and the letter said he did not recall saying that, he disavows that statement. >> it's not enough for you? >> well, if, in fact, that's true, that would end that matter because he has previously inside a book that the jewish lobby influences the u.s. senate and makes us -- pushes us to make very bad decision. if the second statement were true, he said that the secretary of state's office is under the control of the israeli foreign ministers. those two together would show an edge and a view of the israeli u.s. relationship way out of the mainstream, so i'll just take him at his word medicals something new comes along. >> kristen welker, what does the white house have to say about this? they seem to be confident that he is going to get through next week. >> they continue to be confident, andrea. i can tell you that they believe these questions that are being raised by republicans are pure politics. they have confidence of this confirmation moving forward. i can also tell you according to my sources, that administration officials will be working on this, will be in contact with folks on the hill in the coming days to make sure that there aren't any more bumps in the road. of course, every day that this goes on, it's not great for hagel. not great for president obama. they want to see this get resolved as quickly as possible. at this point in time they're still confident. as you know last week, they were holding that cloture vote. vice president biden was reaching tout members on the hill at this point in time. i don't have any education that he is making phone calls this week, but, again, senior administration officials will be engaged in this process in the coming days to make sure that there are no more bumps, andrea. >> and kristen, i know you are still in florida where the president has another day of golf today, although the wind looks like it won't be a great golf day. want to ask you about that in a moment. first, let's look at what john mccain had to say about benghazi. chuck hagel was, of course, not in office during benghazi, but that has been a big issue. this is mccain and david gregory on "meet the press" over benghazi. >> we have had a massive coverup on the part of -- >> a massive coverup of what? i mean, susan -- wait a minute. susan rice said there was a lot of confusion. i'm asking you -- >> do you care, david? do you care? i'm asking you. i'm asking you, do you care whether four americans died? >> i just asked you a coverup of what? >> of the information concerning the deaths of four brave americans. the information has not been forthcoming. you can obviously believe that it has. i know that it hasn't. >> of course, benghazi is another issue they're holding against hagel because it gives them leverage. >> right. look, that is a common tactic in washington. we saw it with the brennan nomination actually from the democratic side getting leverage to get some of the information about the legal analysis for drone strikes. so fair game. the thing you have to question here is how much is this about? there's a massive coverup of benghazi and how much is it about? we're going to look for anything for hagel. the question that i guess i would have asked senator mccain is if it's such a massive coverup and you are so exercised about it, where -- why weren't you demand this stuff and holding up john kerry's nomination because, all of all, he is going ahead the department he is heading the department that dealt with benghazi. >> good point. he only had three negative votes. one of them ted cruz, the aforever mentioned ted cruise. kristen, you are in florida where we're told the president is golfing on a private course and with, of all people tiger woods over the weekend. 27 holes. no coverage by the white house press corps. in past presidencies there has been at least a photo opportunity at the first tee or later on. that's how we all know about bill clinton's golfing attire and some of the other interesting presidential golf partners. what's going on there because i saw a protest from the white house correspondents association against the fact that they would completely shut down and that the travel pool, the group which you know better than anyone, goes with the president and gets that moment or two, a quick picture, has had no visible sighting of the president for the last two and a half days. >> right. well, what happened yesterday, andrea, is that a reporter with golf digest was the first person to tweet out the president was, in fact, golfing with tiger woods. the number two golfer in the world. of course, white house reporters pounced, wanted to be able to confirm that. we didn't get confirmation from the white house until several hours later. as you point out, the republicans who generally travel with the president, the "pool reporters" weren't given access to any pictures or any footage of that game, so the white house press corps association did say that they would ultimately like more access. we did get a reaction from the white house, which said that they handled it in the same manner that they always do, which is to release the president's golf partners towards the end of the day, which to be fair is generally what the bhous does. >> kristen, do you generally -- >> as you point out, andrea -- >> i was going to ask, does the pool generally get at least a picture of the president sometime during the match? >> well, it depends. on an average sunday, not necessarily. we have gotten a picture, you'll remember, when president obama played with house speaker john boehner. we it get a picture. in this instance, i think that there was a lot of interest in having a picture because, of course, it was an historic moment. this was the first time that the president played with tiger woods, and we are told, again, according to a golf reporter, that the president said to tiger that he was glad that he was playing better, so there was a lot of interest in what was happening and, of course, of seeing visual representation and at this point having gotten that. andrea. >> of course. questions occur. did they not permit a picture because it's tiger woods and because some people might object to tiger woods and the controversy of the past? is it because they didn't want to see the president -- show the president vacationing and he is intigs entitled to a vacation on a weekend we're facing the sequester and the congress is also vacationing? is it because it's his second term, and he is feeling more relaxed about doing things that he really always wanted to do? it's just raising some issues. >> those are certainly some of the -- those are certainly some of the questions that are being raise and that have been raised. as you point out, tiger woods got a lot of negative headlines in recent years, but, of course, the white house pressing back against those types of allegations and making the point that, look, this is a private vacation. the president is at the florian, which is a private golf course, and enjoying his vacation, but, of course, he is in his second term now taking a quick vacation before he heads back to deal with issues like the sequester and immigration, so certainly keeping that image of him playing golf, having a vacation, under wraps at least for now. an trae. >> well, nobody begrudges ruth marcus -- nobody begrudges the president some vacation time. >> the president should golf as much as he wants really. i think it's really important for presidents to get downtime. i was just -- and that's just really important. at the same time my response to the white house press office is -- as kristen pointed out, when he is having a golf game that they want publicity about, for example, his famous golf foursome with the speaker of the house, they are very quick to put out a photo of it. this one has lots of reasons that you and kristen mentioned that they might want want a photo out or any other coverage of it, and that's why, and so -- i just think it's unfair to the reporters who were there. >> ruth marcus, kristen welker, come on home, kristen. looks like you had a very cold weekend, by the way. you were bundled up all weekend. i was watching you. >> i was. >> this is not that easy a duty. thanks, kristen. >> there was a cold snap here. >> i know. and senator mccain also was firing back at the white house this weekend over immigration claiming that the white house immigration plan could derail bipartisan talks. >> the president obviously has some thoughts about immigration reform, which he has drafted and gotten his agencies to comment on. if the president proceedses legislation, do you think it will fail? >> of course. of course it will. and that's why we are working together. republicans and democrats. by the way, he has had no communications with republicans on the issue, unlike the previous four presidents that i have dealt with. i believe we are making progress on a bipart sfwlan basis. i believe we can woman up with a product. >> and joining us is usa today's alan gomez, the reporter who broke the news of the white house draft plan on immigration, and telemundo's jose diaz bullart. this was your story. you got the scoop and set off left arm bells all over washington. republicans, marco rubio, who they absolutely have to have to have a bipart sfwlan plan go forward, first calling foul. then, of course, john mccain and others, lindsey graham on the sunday talk shows. first of all, what is in the president's plan that might set the republicans on edge? >> well, what's in the plan right now is no different than what he's been talking about the last few months. there's an earned path to citizensh citizenship. there is enhanced border security. there's a nationwide e-verify program that allows business workers to check the legal status of their perspective workers. i don't think there was anything different than what they've been talking about for the last few months. >> jose, it's true that as john mccain pointed out the president has met with chuck schumer and the other democrats in that bipart sflan group. he did not meet with the republicans. for them to now be faced with this leak -- it was a scoop by usa today. not anything that the white house is putting out, but alan here, you know, worked very hard with his sources to get it on saturday afternoon, and so that blindsideded the republicans. that does create a political problem going forward. not a substantive problem, perhaps. >> i couldn't agree with you more, and kudos to alan for getting that story. the president has yet to meet, as far as i understand, with any republicans, either in the senate or in the house of representatives that are working on this bipartisan effort to reach immigration reform. that includes senator rubio in the senate, but it also includes the members of the house that are working on immigration reform. what the president in this story that alan broke suggests legislatively is really month different than alan says, he has been promoting now for two and a half weeks now since his speech many las vegas. the day after that speech i spoke with the president, the white house, and he said he already had this plan written. we know it's there. we know it's written. we know he is ready to file it if things break down. the question is the timing of this leak. is it now a time to say here are the specifics of a proposal that i will present if you fail before they have even failed? >> the timing was really based on alan having gone to his sources and gotten it. the white house was really upset because they did not want this outs. this was not a timed leak per se. it was basically your reporting. the bottom line is as jose was just saying, he has not met with any republicans, and how does he build support for the plan? i know from talking to some of the democrats involved that he has told them if you guys can't come up with legislative strategy in a couple of months, i'm ready. i've got my plan. but now how do they get back on track? >> well, i think like you were mentioning, their plan all along has been to craft this, to have this ready as a backup plan. to hear republicans talk the last couple of days, the only way this can get back on track is if he follows through on that, and he keeps us back and lets congress sort of lead the way on this. i mean, there's bipartisan negotiations going on in both the senate and the house to craft their own versions of the bill. they're actively doing that right now. if we start seeing those proposals moving through congress, then that sort of clears the way for that opportunity. >> let me switch gears for just a second. jose, while you're there, let me ask you about what's happening in venezuela because in caracas we have seen a picture in havana with his daughters. how healthy is he, and what are we expecting to hear, because we're hearing from venezuela that there may be some announcement, an update on his health later today. >> yes, indeed, an trdreaandrea. they are expecting an announcement from the government later today, and those are the pictures that the government published some days ago from his hospital bed in havana. i think one of the advantages for the chavez government has been to have its leader in cuba because since there is no free press, there is no way of determining exactly what his condition is. now they say -- >> exactly. >> -- he was flown back at 2:00 in the morning to caracas. is he in the military hospital in caracas, and an unusual thing for the chavez government, no video cameras, no coverage of the president arriving or the ambulance taking him to the airport -- to the hospital or really it's been a silence and a no video movement from havana to caracas. let's see what the government says today. clearly hugo chavez is not doing well enough to be able to either walk down the steps of the escalator, of the airport -- airplane or even maybe to speak, so there's a lot of questions underway. remember, he has to be sworn in because from his last re-election, the constitution said he had to be sworn in in venezuela, and because he was in cuba, that didn't happen. we'll see now what the next step is for a government that really right now is on very shady constitutional grounds. >> indeed. jose diaz ballart from telemundo, thank you very much. alan gomez, again, congratulations. great scoop. >> what do immigration reform advocates have to say? jan, president of the nation's largest hispanic civil rights group joining us next. and later, will the vatican call an earlier conclave? you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. for tapping into a wealth of experience. for access to one of the top wealth management firms in the country. for a team of financial professionals who provide customized solutions. for all of your wealth management and retirement goals, discover how pnc wealth management can help you achieve. visit pnc.com/wealthsolutions to find out more. is moving backward. 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[ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. joining me is the leader of a major civil rights group janet, president and ceo of the national council of larazza. thank you. great to see you. >> nice to see you. >> what is your nabbeding of the white house how they plan to make this happen? you have been in meetings in the white house, and you know what their game plan is. they did not expect this leak, but now how do they get things back on track? >> well, i think that there's clearly a lot of momentum that the white house wants to continue to keep up. frankly, time is not our friend. i think the president has made it clear, as he did in nevada we made the announcement around the bill that he has had a draft and would have a draft ready to go. i think it's a compliment for senator marco rubio and senator mccain who have been leading efforts on the republican side to say wait a minute give us a chance to keep moving our bipartisan effort forward, but it's equally legitimate for the president to say i want to have a marker out there and if things sort of derail or end up taking too long, then he can have an option of putting his bill forward. these are healthy tensions right now that we as advocates see as really important to achieving a bipartisan solution, and it is essential that we have a bipartisan solution. i think what we're seeing played out is just the making of legislation. what we want to make sure happens quickly is that a bill does get introduced, and for us we know that we have to work hard to make sure that it will be a bipartisan bill that actually moves forward. >> partly because, as john mccain said, if it isn't bipartisan, it's not going to work, it's not going happen. we've seen how if things are not supported, you see how that is on a whole lot of issues. let's talk about the substance of the president's proposal. he is talking about an eight-year wait and then getting behind the back of the line. now, we're told that, for instance, immigrants from mexico have a 16-year wait as it is. does it help people to get in the back of the line? is this too long a wait from your perspective? >> well, i think that that is really going to be at the heart of this legalization with the path to citizenship is how that gets negotiated, what are the right time frames and how does it get structured? the key here, andrea, if we're going to look at a silver lining, had i think is really important, is that so far both sides have said that it is essential. senator marco rubio has said that it is essential that we have legalization with the path to citizenship. the president has made it clear that that has to be an essential component as well. what is very positive is that we have an overlap here around a central component of what would be a bipartisan bill. now, obviously there's a lot of details to be worked out, and that's going to be one of the most important ones, and it's hard to say how that's going to turn out right now. we want it to be a reasonable and meaningful path to citizenship, and one that's actually measurable where we won't see the goal post moves as it's tied to other contingencies or it could be. >> one of those contingencies is some proposals have an annual certification that the borders are "safe." how do you determine that all the borders of the u.s. are secure. >> it's really important that we have smart and workable enforcement as part of any comprehensive immigration bill that goes forward, but, again, how those benchmarks are measured and what it means is something that's going to be very important because we have seen the goal post move when it comes to enforcement in the past, and the reality is we've seen billions, $18 billion invested, in strengthening our borders just in the last year. more investments in that area than all the other federal enforcement agencies combined. for us it's going to be really important that that be a tangible and meaningful benchmark and not one that can be easily moved. it's really important for us to recognize that a lot has been done on enforcement the. we want smart enforcement going forward, but it has to be real, and we can't see these goal posts continue to move. >> thank you so much, janet. great to see you. thanks for the update. >> thank you. >> meanwhile, in south africa oscar pistorius is set to appear in court tomorrow for a bail hearing. the same day as the funeral for his explain girlfriend, reeva steenkamp. nbc's ragit joins me now. you saw all the emotion in the court the other day. he will be back in court tomorrow. a lot of leaks from police sources and others about -- we heard about the bloody cricket bat and other things. it sounds like both sides trying to leak to the media very much competitive points of view as to what happened. >> it really does. we expect that both of those sides might be presented to the court tomorrow. oscar pistorius' bail hearing. a great deal of speculation. talk about the potential relevance of a bloodied cricket bat, which according to reports was found at the scene. there is speculation about a blood and even drug tests which have taken place. to add to the speculation, i spoke directly today with oscar pistorius's best friend, a man who introduced him to reeva steenkamp, and he said he had a panicked phone call from him just after the shooting. he raced to the home, and oscar pistorius' instruction when he got there, the police had locked it down, but he is adamant that oscar pistorius is innocent, that he believed that his girlfriend was, in fact, an intruder and that this is what he described as a tragic accident. yes, andrea, a great deal of speculation going on here as the focus moves from here, the police station where oscar pistorius is in custody spending his fifth night tonight in custody ahead of tomorrow's hearing to the courthouse tomorrow where he will be brought in the morning for what we expect will be yet another emotional trial. here he is given one hour of visiting time. other previous days he has had his lawyers, his relatives who have come to see him on occasion they've come out and made statements and said that actually he is totally innocent, and his agent too who came over the weekend and said that he was innocent too and also added that his sponsors were completely behind him, draen. >> thank you so much. it's going to be a big day in court tomorrow. we'll see you there. coming up next here, the sequester showdown. our political briefing up next. e can keep this car fresh, we loaded it with fast food, sweaty hockey gear, and a smelly dog cage. and parked it at a mall. in texas. for two days. then put a febreze car vent clip on the dash and let in real people. it smells good. like laundry fresh out of like the dryer. yeah. a man fresh out of the shower. nailed it. oh yeah. proof. febreze car vent clips keep your car fresh. another way febreze helps you breathe happy. because every flake is double-toasted... splashed with sweet honey... and covered in rich double-roasted peanuts. mmm. 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[ male announcer ] kellogg's crunchy nut. it's super delicious! the delightful discovery. the sweet realization that you have a moment all to yourself. well, almost. splenda® no calorie sweetener. splenda® makes the moment yours™. anding the white house seem to be playing a game of political chicken with $85 billion and across the board budget cuts at stake. less than two weeks from now. join me for today's political briefing politico's jake sherman. we've seen this before, and this one doesn't seem as dramatic because things won't sort of happen right away by the end of march then we have the resolution and another deadline. the bottom line is that the bhous is putting out its scare list, if you will, from their perspective. these are the big, bad cuts that are going to affect people. what are they talking about particularly? >> meat inspectors, faa, flight controlors. >> pre-k. >> pre-k. national parks. you're talking about a broad swath of things that will get slash iffed they can't figure out how to solve the sequester. as you said, we're in polar corners right now. there's nothing going on. hardly any talks. john boehner and harry reid met last week, and they emerged from the meeting saying the same line that they're saying publicly to reporters. they said privately. the senate needs to move is john boehner's message sfwloosh the fact is that both sides blaming the other. they all signed on because the sequester was approved as a matter of legislation, but it was, as bob woodward reports in his book, it was a white house proposal to the hill to get past a previous budget crisis. >> one of the most curious lines in washington right now that this is obama's sequester. yes, the president might have proposed it. house republicans pushed it through their chamber, and the senate pushed it through the senate. it's really everybody's responsibility. all hands were on deck in 2011 when they did this. now, both sides have political advantages to stay where they are. the senate needs taxes. house republicans cannot put any tax revenue in this equation because john boehner passed tax increases with the fiscal cliff and cannot afford to do it again politically. it's too difficult for him. >> what about what's happening inside the caucus? the sort of rivalries, cantor and boehner and paul ryan sort of moving up on the inside? who is the most influential player right now in that caucus when it comes to budget decisions? >> it's john -- still it's three people. john boehner, eric cantor, and paul ryan, and paul ryan and cantor are going to keep boehner to the right. i mean, cantor and ryan's advisors have told us privately there is no opening for tax revenue in this deal at all. i'm want sure if john boehner would do it independently of them, but the people that we've seen who have been completely ineffective are the people on the house armed services committee, the people who make these decisions usually, but the chairman has not been able to sway boehner at all. we've seen the stalemate because of that, and cantor and rooen are going to keep boehner on the right. >> people outside the process are saying this is the dumbest way to do business, to have a meat ax approach and have across the board cuts. yes, it does achieve some budget savings, but does it not in any kind of intelligent way of planning. >> which is why if you talk to the people on capitol hill, the people who are making these decisions, they say that down the road if there are huge economic damages -- i mean, we don't really know what's going to happen to the economy if the sequester stays in place. the theory is it's going to be pretty bad. congress could back fill some of those cuts april or may or down the road, could dump them a little bit more money to the pentagon and try to offset some of the damages. right now we really don't know, and there's really no one that has proposed anything that could pass both chambers at this point. >> jake sherman, thank you very much. good to see you. >> with our politico briefing. coming up next, to the vatican. s will the vatican now fast track the election of the new pope? we're live in rome next. ann thompson coming up right here on "andrea mitchell reports." 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said that in spanish set off a flurry of rumors that he was signalling some support for a latin american pope. i think i saw on the "today" show this morning put that to rest. >> yes. well, in fact, andrea, it set off rumors because he spoke in six different languages during that blessing, and it was only in spanish that he asked the people to pray for himself and the future pope. you know, nature abhors a vacuum, and so does the vatican. people are looking will for tea leaves. >>. >> he was just offering a prayer. but that gives you an idea of the kind of speculation that is going around here because, quite frankly, at this week not much is going on. the pope is at a week-long retreat in the vatican behind me, and so we're all waiting to hear when the conclave will begin. there is possibility it could be moved up, but we don't have the definite date right now. it's scheduled to start sometime between march 15th and march 20th. if it gets moved up, it takes the authority of the pope to do that. he can actually set the new date himself or he can sign over the authority to the dean of the college of cardinals, and that's what we're waiting to see if that happens. andrea. >> ann, i was fascinated by your reporting last night about the impact -- the burden, really, of the whole fight over reform, and the fact that he was a bad manager. you know, this holy man deeply intellectual, deeply spiritual man by all accounts really did not manage and continued the mismanagement that had preceded him from the final years of john paul ii and that that whole scandal, the butlers leak, the controversy over whether or not coming to washington was really to remove a potential reformer. how much is the curia a problem here, and is that something that would be fixed with the next pope, or is this going to be a choice that doesn't really deal with that issue? >> andrea, i will tell you that every vatican watcher that i have spoken to has said the next pope has to come in and clean house in the curiate. they feel -- this is person after person that i have spoken to feels that the curia has really done a disservice to pope benedict xvi, and i think what was clear in that washington post article is that his butler gave those documents over to the investigative reporter here in italy not as a way to hurt pope benedict but, rather, to show all the infighting and betrayal that goes -- that has gone on in the curia and that was an impediment to the reforms that benedict tried to put in place. the big focus of his papacy has been the re-evangilization to get catholics particularly in western europe and in north america excited again about their faith. to say anything that the next pope needs to clean house -- >> it's a communication strategy, something this pope hasn't had. andrea. >> ann thompson. >> for the tenth anniversary of the iraq war. it's been a decade, and tonight msnbc is air this documentary -- in this excerpt prosecute the film congress votes to give president bush the authority to launch a war against iraq when his secretary of state colin powell has the doubts on that war. >> joint resolution is passed. without objection -- >> the vote is overwhelming. the margin is more than 3-1 in the senate. it's more than 2-1 in the house. the president is officially given a free hand. >> the days of iraq acting as an outlaw state are coming to an end. >> powell walked into my office, and without so much as a fair-thee-well, and he said i wonder what will happen when we put 5,000 troops in iraq and comb the country from one end to the other and find nothing? he turned around and walked back if his office. i wrote that down on my calendar as close to verbatim as i could because i thought that was a profound statement coming from the secretary of state, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. >> the documentary hubris selling the iraq war airs tonight hosted by rachel maddow. jake's very private world. at first, jake's family thought they saved 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journal congressional correspondent chris fraitz. thank you all very much. susan, the president did seem very emotional in that speech, much more personal, and he has really kept up the pressure for some action on guns. he has spoken of it a couple of times a week for the last couple of weeks. certainly at the state of the union it was the high point emotionally of that speech. >> it's interesting to hear the comments on friday because it's so rare that we hear that president is talking that personal way about his own father. i think this issue of gun control is one that he is sticking with to a degree that i think is a surprise to a lot of people, and we heard senator mccain say yesterday that he thought there was a good chance that universal background checks will get through the senate. now, that doesn't mean that it gets through the house, which is a tougher venue, and, of course, that is the only measure that we think there is a pretty good chance for expanding the background checks to include gun shows and other private gun sales. i think there's something that is possible that will happen this year, and, of course, what has it been a decade or so, more than a decade, since we have seriously talked about gun control on this panel. >> and what they have are separate bills which does give some little room for the people to take a vote, they can vote against the assault weapon ban or vote for background checks. they are taking it piece by piece here deliberately. >> that's true, but what i think -- i want to talk about the president's remarks. s he is talking -- he is reaching out over congress to a large degree and reaching out to the public. these are very personal remarks that we had a great story about this weekend, and i think it's just too -- when you look at the polls, 90% of the public agrees with background checks. it's -- you know, there's a great frustration with congress. i think he is going to keep up the pressure. he is seeing this with groups like bloomberg. are you seeing this with the gabby giffords' pact. this is a groundswell in the country that he is trying to tap into. >> well, we figure out whose cell phone -- it could even be mine. let's go on. chris fraitz, talk about, we have another senate republican resignation. mike johann is announcing. that is a safe republican seat, but it could make for an interesting primary. >> oh, absolutely. we have, you know, yet another moderate republican who is kind of throwing in the towel after just one term. of course, he is a former g. i don't think democrats are looking at this as a pick-up, but i think it's just another indication of how some of the kind of more moderate members of the congress are throwing in the towel. the cycle we saw a number of other similar announcements, and i wanted to go back a little bit to gun control, andrea. just because it's interesting when you talk about inside washington. we've had the president working outside. inside washington we have chuck schumer and tom coburn, who is -- who are working very closely. they had hoped to have a deal on background checks before the end of last week, before this recess. they were very close, and republicans and democrats were telling me they think they can get something that would have bipartisan support from joe manchin, democrat from west virginia, and mark kirk, a illi very moderate bipartisan senators bringing toward a bill. i would look for that after this week -- long recess is over. and also i would look to colorado today where you have the house of representatives who are putting a sweeping background check on the floor for a final vote. and a cap on magazine rounds, 15 rounds per magazine. that's a very moderate, you know, kind of purple state. i cover colorado politics for five or six years. and it's interesting to me to watch democrats who are essentially out there very much like east coast republicans pushing this forward. joe biden called four moderate state lawmakers on a democratic side to say please vote for this. so you have the white house involved there, too. trying to create some pressure to move this inside washington game outside. >> and susan pedro, i wanted to ask you as a long-time washington house correspondent and the bureau chief for "usa today," your take on the total blackout of any kind of photos of the president golfing this weekend with tiger woods. the press -- the white house correspondents' association has protested, the white house has pushed back. but it does seem as though they were really shut out. do you see an issue there, and why do you think the white house did that? >> i think the president has an obligation to explain himself to the american people. they have news conferences and do interviews. i'm inclined to think -- i'm less inflamed with the idea he would have a round of golf as being president. although playing golf with someone like tiger woods, everybody is going to want to see a picture of that. put a puck at your out. what's the big deal? >> the big deal may be that tiger woods is still controversial. >> that's true. i would say we had a great story by jackie collins this morning in "the times" who was down there, one of the reporters enormously frustrated. we would never have seen this trip a year ago, during election year. you can tell the president has won re-election. he's down in a very exclusive resort days after reaching out to middle class americans, working class americans in the state of union address and now in this very exclusive resort. it's also very much a boys' weekend. and no women around. the family is out skiing in the west. and he's down there with the boys. and he's come under a lot of pressure and criticism for his male insider circle. so -- >> the optics of it. thank you very much, elizabeth miller and susan page. and chris. we'll be right back. nobody insures more bikes than progressive. do you guys ride? well... no. sometimes, yeah. yes. well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here -- we got great coverage. it's not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. i doubt anyone will even notice. leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. now, that's progressive. call or click today. aarrggh! with simple, real ingredients, like roasted peanuts, creamy peanut butter, and a rich dark-chocolate flavor, plus 10 grams of protein, so it's energy straight from nature to you. nature valley protein bars. and ruth marcus is back to bring it home. let's talk about something that happened last night. and no spoiler alert. we're not going to talk about the actual fact but it was the last episode of ""downton abbey," and it left us all distraught. >> distraught is a good word. there has been a lot for us "downton abbey" fans to cope with this season. and also i really hate the wait. to find out what -- where things go from here. >> our household, a lot of emotion. ruth marcus, see you soon. thank you very much. and that does it for us for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." if you haven't seen it, bring a lot of kleenex. and "news nation" is next with thomas roberts.
choices for secretary of defense in a very long time. >> spoiler alert. the day after downtown. the season finale that's left us all reeling and weeping. >> andrea mitchell live in washington. republican critics say they are prepared to permit a vote on chuck hagel next week, but his opponents are still digging, digging for anything that could still derail the nomination between now and then. joining me now for our daily fix, washington post columnist ruth marcus, and nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker. welcome both. first to you, ruth. you've talked -- you've written a lot about hagel and about the ted cruz fell nonnon, and all of the piling on. we now hear in the weekend interviews that there's going to be an interview and they expect it to go through, john mccain and others are going to vote against. we had the votes in terms of the cloture vote on friday, on wednesday, rather, in terms of having 58 votes, but now what is this whole issue of the rutgers speech? >> i think it's all about sort of desperate search to find something. usually when you are asking questions about a nominee, and i'm a really big dlooefr believer in oversight and the advisory process, but usually you have a reason to think there's someone there. this is just scouring the kitchen cabinets and seeing if you can find any little dust balls any place, and i think they are just -- you and i have seen it so many times. if you can run out the clock enough, maybe something will come up, and this is just sort of playing for that end of the football game moment of something turning up. he will be confirmed, and i have to say i don't think he performed well at all, to put it mildly, in the hearings. i also think especially this last stretch makes republicans look terrible also. >> let's look at lindsey graham yesterday talking about the rutgers speech and what more could come up. >> allegedly senator hagel said that the u.s. state department was an adjunct of the israeli foreign ministers office, which i think would be breathtaking if he said that to have such a view. i got a letter back from senator hagel in response to my question, did you say that and do you believe that, and the letter said he did not recall saying that, he disavows that statement. >> it's not enough for you? >> well, if, in fact, that's true, that would end that matter because he has previously inside a book that the jewish lobby influences the u.s. senate and makes us -- pushes us to make very bad decision. if the second statement were true, he said that the secretary of state's office is under the control of the israeli foreign ministers. those two together would show an edge and a view of the israeli u.s. relationship way out of the mainstream, so i'll just take him at his word medicals something new comes along. >> kristen welker, what does the white house have to say about this? they seem to be confident that he is going to get through next week. >> they continue to be confident, andrea. i can tell you that they believe these questions that are being raised by republicans are pure politics. they have confidence of this confirmation moving forward. i can also tell you according to my sources, that administration officials will be working on this, will be in contact with folks on the hill in the coming days to make sure that there aren't any more bumps in the road. of course, every day that this goes on, it's not great for hagel. not great for president obama. they want to see this get resolved as quickly as possible. at this point in time they're still confident. as you know last week, they were holding that cloture vote. vice president biden was reaching tout members on the hill at this point in time. i don't have any education that he is making phone calls this week, but, again, senior administration officials will be engaged in this process in the coming days to make sure that there are no more bumps, andrea. >> and kristen, i know you are still in florida where the president has another day of golf today, although the wind looks like it won't be a great golf day. want to ask you about that in a moment. first, let's look at what john mccain had to say about benghazi. chuck hagel was, of course, not in office during benghazi, but that has been a big issue. this is mccain and david gregory on "meet the press" over benghazi. >> we have had a massive coverup on the part of -- >> a massive coverup of what? i mean, susan -- wait a minute. susan rice said there was a lot of confusion. i'm asking you -- >> do you care, david? do you care? i'm asking you. i'm asking you, do you care whether four americans died? >> i just asked you a coverup of what? >> of the information concerning the deaths of four brave americans. the information has not been forthcoming. you can obviously believe that it has. i know that it hasn't. >> of course, benghazi is another issue they're holding against hagel because it gives them leverage. >> right. look, that is a common tactic in washington. we saw it with the brennan nomination actually from the democratic side getting leverage to get some of the information about the legal analysis for drone strikes. so fair game. the thing you have to question here is how much is this about? there's a massive coverup of benghazi and how much is it about? we're going to look for anything for hagel. the question that i guess i would have asked senator mccain is if it's such a massive coverup and you are so exercised about it, where -- why weren't you demand this stuff and holding up john kerry's nomination because, all of all, he is going ahead the department he is heading the department that dealt with benghazi. >> good point. he only had three negative votes. one of them ted cruz, the aforever mentioned ted cruise. kristen, you are in florida where we're told the president is golfing on a private course and with, of all people tiger woods over the weekend. 27 holes. no coverage by the white house press corps. in past presidencies there has been at least a photo opportunity at the first tee or later on. that's how we all know about bill clinton's golfing attire and some of the other interesting presidential golf partners. what's going on there because i saw a protest from the white house correspondents association against the fact that they would completely shut down and that the travel pool, the group which you know better than anyone, goes with the president and gets that moment or two, a quick picture, has had no visible sighting of the president for the last two and a half days. >> right. well, what happened yesterday, andrea, is that a reporter with golf digest was the first person to tweet out the president was, in fact, golfing with tiger woods. the number two golfer in the world. of course, white house reporters pounced, wanted to be able to confirm that. we didn't get confirmation from the white house until several hours later. as you point out, the republicans who generally travel with the president, the "pool reporters" weren't given access to any pictures or any footage of that game, so the white house press corps association did say that they would ultimately like more access. we did get a reaction from the white house, which said that they handled it in the same manner that they always do, which is to release the president's golf partners towards the end of the day, which to be fair is generally what the bhous does. >> kristen, do you generally -- >> as you point out, andrea -- >> i was going to ask, does the pool generally get at least a picture of the president sometime during the match? >> well, it depends. on an average sunday, not necessarily. we have gotten a picture, you'll remember, when president obama played with house speaker john boehner. we it get a picture. in this instance, i think that there was a lot of interest in having a picture because, of course, it was an historic moment. this was the first time that the president played with tiger woods, and we are told, again, according to a golf reporter, that the president said to tiger that he was glad that he was playing better, so there was a lot of interest in what was happening and, of course, of seeing visual representation and at this point having gotten that. andrea. >> of course. questions occur. did they not permit a picture because it's tiger woods and because some people might object to tiger woods and the controversy of the past? is it because they didn't want to see the president -- show the president vacationing and he is intigs entitled to a vacation on a weekend we're facing the sequester and the congress is also vacationing? is it because it's his second term, and he is feeling more relaxed about doing things that he really always wanted to do? it's just raising some issues. >> those are certainly some of the -- those are certainly some of the questions that are being raise and that have been raised. as you point out, tiger woods got a lot of negative headlines in recent years, but, of course, the white house pressing back against those types of allegations and making the point that, look, this is a private vacation. the president is at the florian, which is a private golf course, and enjoying his vacation, but, of course, he is in his second term now taking a quick vacation before he heads back to deal with issues like the sequester and immigration, so certainly keeping that image of him playing golf, having a vacation, under wraps at least for now. an trae. >> well, nobody begrudges ruth marcus -- nobody begrudges the president some vacation time. >> the president should golf as much as he wants really. i think it's really important for presidents to get downtime. i was just -- and that's just really important. at the same time my response to the white house press office is -- as kristen pointed out, when he is having a golf game that they want publicity about, for example, his famous golf foursome with the speaker of the house, they are very quick to put out a photo of it. this one has lots of reasons that you and kristen mentioned that they might want want a photo out or any other coverage of it, and that's why, and so -- i just think it's unfair to the reporters who were there. >> ruth marcus, kristen welker, come on home, kristen. looks like you had a very cold weekend, by the way. you were bundled up all weekend. i was watching you. >> i was. >> this is not that easy a duty. thanks, kristen. >> there was a cold snap here. >> i know. and senator mccain also was firing back at the white house this weekend over immigration claiming that the white house immigration plan could derail bipartisan talks. >> the president obviously has some thoughts about immigration reform, which he has drafted and gotten his agencies to comment on. if the president proceedses legislation, do you think it will fail? >> of course. of course it will. and that's why we are working together. republicans and democrats. by the way, he has had no communications with republicans on the issue, unlike the previous four presidents that i have dealt with. i believe we are making progress on a bipart sfwlan basis. i believe we can woman up with a product. >> and joining us is usa today's alan gomez, the reporter who broke the news of the white house draft plan on immigration, and telemundo's jose diaz bullart. this was your story. you got the scoop and set off left arm bells all over washington. republicans, marco rubio, who they absolutely have to have to have a bipart sfwlan plan go forward, first calling foul. then, of course, john mccain and others, lindsey graham on the sunday talk shows. first of all, what is in the president's plan that might set the republicans on edge? >> well, what's in the plan right now is no different than what he's been talking about the last few months. there's an earned path to citizensh citizenship. there is enhanced border security. there's a nationwide e-verify program that allows business workers to check the legal status of their perspective workers. i don't think there was anything different than what they've been talking about for the last few months. >> jose, it's true that as john mccain pointed out the president has met with chuck schumer and the other democrats in that bipart sflan group. he did not meet with the republicans. for them to now be faced with this leak -- it was a scoop by usa today. not anything that the white house is putting out, but alan here, you know, worked very hard with his sources to get it on saturday afternoon, and so that blindsideded the republicans. that does create a political problem going forward. not a substantive problem, perhaps. >> i couldn't agree with you more, and kudos to alan for getting that story. the president has yet to meet, as far as i understand, with any republicans, either in the senate or in the house of representatives that are working on this bipartisan effort to reach immigration reform. that includes senator rubio in the senate, but it also includes the members of the house that are working on immigration reform. what the president in this story that alan broke suggests legislatively is really month different than alan says, he has been promoting now for two and a half weeks now since his speech many las vegas. the day after that speech i spoke with the president, the white house, and he said he already had this plan written. we know it's there. we know it's written. we know he is ready to file it if things break down. the question is the timing of this leak. is it now a time to say here are the specifics of a proposal that i will present if you fail before they have even failed? >> the timing was really based on alan having gone to his sources and gotten it. the white house was really upset because they did not want this outs. this was not a timed leak per se. it was basically your reporting. the bottom line is as jose was just saying, he has not met with any republicans, and how does he build support for the plan? i know from talking to some of the democrats involved that he has told them if you guys can't come up with legislative strategy in a couple of months, i'm ready. i've got my plan. but now how do they get back on track? >> well, i think like you were mentioning, their plan all along has been to craft this, to have this ready as a backup plan. to hear republicans talk the last couple of days, the only way this can get back on track is if he follows through on that, and he keeps us back and lets congress sort of lead the way on this. i mean, there's bipartisan negotiations going on in both the senate and the house to craft their own versions of the bill. they're actively doing that right now. if we start seeing those proposals moving through congress, then that sort of clears the way for that opportunity. >> let me switch gears for just a second. jose, while you're there, let me ask you about what's happening in venezuela because in caracas we have seen a picture in havana with his daughters. how healthy is he, and what are we expecting to hear, because we're hearing from venezuela that there may be some announcement, an update on his health later today. >> yes, indeed, an trdreaandrea. they are expecting an announcement from the government later today, and those are the pictures that the government published some days ago from his hospital bed in havana. i think one of the advantages for the chavez government has been to have its leader in cuba because since there is no free press, there is no way of determining exactly what his condition is. now they say -- >> exactly. >> -- he was flown back at 2:00 in the morning to caracas. is he in the military hospital in caracas, and an unusual thing for the chavez government, no video cameras, no coverage of the president arriving or the ambulance taking him to the airport -- to the hospital or really it's been a silence and a no video movement from havana to caracas. let's see what the government says today. clearly hugo chavez is not doing well enough to be able to either walk down the steps of the escalator, of the airport -- airplane or even maybe to speak, so there's a lot of questions underway. remember, he has to be sworn in because from his last re-election, the constitution said he had to be sworn in in venezuela, and because he was in cuba, that didn't happen. we'll see now what the next step is for a government that really right now is on very shady constitutional grounds. >> indeed. jose diaz ballart from telemundo, thank you very much. alan gomez, again, congratulations. great scoop. >> what do immigration reform advocates have to say? jan, president of the nation's largest hispanic civil rights group joining us next. and later, will the vatican call an earlier conclave? you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. for tapping into a wealth of experience. for access to one of the top wealth management firms in the country. for a team of financial professionals who provide customized solutions. for all of your wealth management and retirement goals, discover how pnc wealth management can help you achieve. visit pnc.com/wealthsolutions to find out more. is moving backward. 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[ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. joining me is the leader of a major civil rights group janet, president and ceo of the national council of larazza. thank you. great to see you. >> nice to see you. >> what is your nabbeding of the white house how they plan to make this happen? you have been in meetings in the white house, and you know what their game plan is. they did not expect this leak, but now how do they get things back on track? >> well, i think that there's clearly a lot of momentum that the white house wants to continue to keep up. frankly, time is not our friend. i think the president has made it clear, as he did in nevada we made the announcement around the bill that he has had a draft and would have a draft ready to go. i think it's a compliment for senator marco rubio and senator mccain who have been leading efforts on the republican side to say wait a minute give us a chance to keep moving our bipartisan effort forward, but it's equally legitimate for the president to say i want to have a marker out there and if things sort of derail or end up taking too long, then he can have an option of putting his bill forward. these are healthy tensions right now that we as advocates see as really important to achieving a bipartisan solution, and it is essential that we have a bipartisan solution. i think what we're seeing played out is just the making of legislation. what we want to make sure happens quickly is that a bill does get introduced, and for us we know that we have to work hard to make sure that it will be a bipartisan bill that actually moves forward. >> partly because, as john mccain said, if it isn't bipartisan, it's not going to work, it's not going happen. we've seen how if things are not supported, you see how that is on a whole lot of issues. let's talk about the substance of the president's proposal. he is talking about an eight-year wait and then getting behind the back of the line. now, we're told that, for instance, immigrants from mexico have a 16-year wait as it is. does it help people to get in the back of the line? is this too long a wait from your perspective? >> well, i think that that is really going to be at the heart of this legalization with the path to citizenship is how that gets negotiated, what are the right time frames and how does it get structured? the key here, andrea, if we're going to look at a silver lining, had i think is really important, is that so far both sides have said that it is essential. senator marco rubio has said that it is essential that we have legalization with the path to citizenship. the president has made it clear that that has to be an essential component as well. what is very positive is that we have an overlap here around a central component of what would be a bipartisan bill. now, obviously there's a lot of details to be worked out, and that's going to be one of the most important ones, and it's hard to say how that's going to turn out right now. we want it to be a reasonable and meaningful path to citizenship, and one that's actually measurable where we won't see the goal post moves as it's tied to other contingencies or it could be. >> one of those contingencies is some proposals have an annual certification that the borders are "safe." how do you determine that all the borders of the u.s. are secure. >> it's really important that we have smart and workable enforcement as part of any comprehensive immigration bill that goes forward, but, again, how those benchmarks are measured and what it means is something that's going to be very important because we have seen the goal post move when it comes to enforcement in the past, and the reality is we've seen billions, $18 billion invested, in strengthening our borders just in the last year. more investments in that area than all the other federal enforcement agencies combined. for us it's going to be really important that that be a tangible and meaningful benchmark and not one that can be easily moved. it's really important for us to recognize that a lot has been done on enforcement the. we want smart enforcement going forward, but it has to be real, and we can't see these goal posts continue to move. >> thank you so much, janet. great to see you. thanks for the update. >> thank you. >> meanwhile, in south africa oscar pistorius is set to appear in court tomorrow for a bail hearing. the same day as the funeral for his explain girlfriend, reeva steenkamp. nbc's ragit joins me now. you saw all the emotion in the court the other day. he will be back in court tomorrow. a lot of leaks from police sources and others about -- we heard about the bloody cricket bat and other things. it sounds like both sides trying to leak to the media very much competitive points of view as to what happened. >> it really does. we expect that both of those sides might be presented to the court tomorrow. oscar pistorius' bail hearing. a great deal of speculation. talk about the potential relevance of a bloodied cricket bat, which according to reports was found at the scene. there is speculation about a blood and even drug tests which have taken place. to add to the speculation, i spoke directly today with oscar pistorius's best friend, a man who introduced him to reeva steenkamp, and he said he had a panicked phone call from him just after the shooting. he raced to the home, and oscar pistorius' instruction when he got there, the police had locked it down, but he is adamant that oscar pistorius is innocent, that he believed that his girlfriend was, in fact, an intruder and that this is what he described as a tragic accident. yes, andrea, a great deal of speculation going on here as the focus moves from here, the police station where oscar pistorius is in custody spending his fifth night tonight in custody ahead of tomorrow's hearing to the courthouse tomorrow where he will be brought in the morning for what we expect will be yet another emotional trial. here he is given one hour of visiting time. other previous days he has had his lawyers, his relatives who have come to see him on occasion they've come out and made statements and said that actually he is totally innocent, and his agent too who came over the weekend and said that he was innocent too and also added that his sponsors were completely behind him, draen. >> thank you so much. it's going to be a big day in court tomorrow. we'll see you there. coming up next here, the sequester showdown. our political briefing up next. e can keep this car fresh, we loaded it with fast food, sweaty hockey gear, and a smelly dog cage. and parked it at a mall. in texas. for two days. then put a febreze car vent clip on the dash and let in real people. it smells good. like laundry fresh out of like the dryer. yeah. a man fresh out of the shower. nailed it. oh yeah. proof. febreze car vent clips keep your car fresh. another way febreze helps you breathe happy. because every flake is double-toasted... splashed with sweet honey... and covered in rich double-roasted peanuts. mmm. 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[ male announcer ] kellogg's crunchy nut. it's super delicious! the delightful discovery. the sweet realization that you have a moment all to yourself. well, almost. splenda® no calorie sweetener. splenda® makes the moment yours™. anding the white house seem to be playing a game of political chicken with $85 billion and across the board budget cuts at stake. less than two weeks from now. join me for today's political briefing politico's jake sherman. we've seen this before, and this one doesn't seem as dramatic because things won't sort of happen right away by the end of march then we have the resolution and another deadline. the bottom line is that the bhous is putting out its scare list, if you will, from their perspective. these are the big, bad cuts that are going to affect people. what are they talking about particularly? >> meat inspectors, faa, flight controlors. >> pre-k. >> pre-k. national parks. you're talking about a broad swath of things that will get slash iffed they can't figure out how to solve the sequester. as you said, we're in polar corners right now. there's nothing going on. hardly any talks. john boehner and harry reid met last week, and they emerged from the meeting saying the same line that they're saying publicly to reporters. they said privately. the senate needs to move is john boehner's message sfwloosh the fact is that both sides blaming the other. they all signed on because the sequester was approved as a matter of legislation, but it was, as bob woodward reports in his book, it was a white house proposal to the hill to get past a previous budget crisis. >> one of the most curious lines in washington right now that this is obama's sequester. yes, the president might have proposed it. house republicans pushed it through their chamber, and the senate pushed it through the senate. it's really everybody's responsibility. all hands were on deck in 2011 when they did this. now, both sides have political advantages to stay where they are. the senate needs taxes. house republicans cannot put any tax revenue in this equation because john boehner passed tax increases with the fiscal cliff and cannot afford to do it again politically. it's too difficult for him. >> what about what's happening inside the caucus? the sort of rivalries, cantor and boehner and paul ryan sort of moving up on the inside? who is the most influential player right now in that caucus when it comes to budget decisions? >> it's john -- still it's three people. john boehner, eric cantor, and paul ryan, and paul ryan and cantor are going to keep boehner to the right. i mean, cantor and ryan's advisors have told us privately there is no opening for tax revenue in this deal at all. i'm want sure if john boehner would do it independently of them, but the people that we've seen who have been completely ineffective are the people on the house armed services committee, the people who make these decisions usually, but the chairman has not been able to sway boehner at all. we've seen the stalemate because of that, and cantor and rooen are going to keep boehner on the right. >> people outside the process are saying this is the dumbest way to do business, to have a meat ax approach and have across the board cuts. yes, it does achieve some budget savings, but does it not in any kind of intelligent way of planning. >> which is why if you talk to the people on capitol hill, the people who are making these decisions, they say that down the road if there are huge economic damages -- i mean, we don't really know what's going to happen to the economy if the sequester stays in place. the theory is it's going to be pretty bad. congress could back fill some of those cuts april or may or down the road, could dump them a little bit more money to the pentagon and try to offset some of the damages. right now we really don't know, and there's really no one that has proposed anything that could pass both chambers at this point. >> jake sherman, thank you very much. good to see you. >> with our politico briefing. coming up next, to the vatican. s will the vatican now fast track the election of the new pope? we're live in rome next. ann thompson coming up right here on "andrea mitchell reports." 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said that in spanish set off a flurry of rumors that he was signalling some support for a latin american pope. i think i saw on the "today" show this morning put that to rest. >> yes. well, in fact, andrea, it set off rumors because he spoke in six different languages during that blessing, and it was only in spanish that he asked the people to pray for himself and the future pope. you know, nature abhors a vacuum, and so does the vatican. people are looking will for tea leaves. >>. >> he was just offering a prayer. but that gives you an idea of the kind of speculation that is going around here because, quite frankly, at this week not much is going on. the pope is at a week-long retreat in the vatican behind me, and so we're all waiting to hear when the conclave will begin. there is possibility it could be moved up, but we don't have the definite date right now. it's scheduled to start sometime between march 15th and march 20th. if it gets moved up, it takes the authority of the pope to do that. he can actually set the new date himself or he can sign over the authority to the dean of the college of cardinals, and that's what we're waiting to see if that happens. andrea. >> ann, i was fascinated by your reporting last night about the impact -- the burden, really, of the whole fight over reform, and the fact that he was a bad manager. you know, this holy man deeply intellectual, deeply spiritual man by all accounts really did not manage and continued the mismanagement that had preceded him from the final years of john paul ii and that that whole scandal, the butlers leak, the controversy over whether or not coming to washington was really to remove a potential reformer. how much is the curia a problem here, and is that something that would be fixed with the next pope, or is this going to be a choice that doesn't really deal with that issue? >> andrea, i will tell you that every vatican watcher that i have spoken to has said the next pope has to come in and clean house in the curiate. they feel -- this is person after person that i have spoken to feels that the curia has really done a disservice to pope benedict xvi, and i think what was clear in that washington post article is that his butler gave those documents over to the investigative reporter here in italy not as a way to hurt pope benedict but, rather, to show all the infighting and betrayal that goes -- that has gone on in the curia and that was an impediment to the reforms that benedict tried to put in place. the big focus of his papacy has been the re-evangilization to get catholics particularly in western europe and in north america excited again about their faith. to say anything that the next pope needs to clean house -- >> it's a communication strategy, something this pope hasn't had. andrea. >> ann thompson. >> for the tenth anniversary of the iraq war. it's been a decade, and tonight msnbc is air this documentary -- in this excerpt prosecute the film congress votes to give president bush the authority to launch a war against iraq when his secretary of state colin powell has the doubts on that war. >> joint resolution is passed. without objection -- >> the vote is overwhelming. the margin is more than 3-1 in the senate. it's more than 2-1 in the house. the president is officially given a free hand. >> the days of iraq acting as an outlaw state are coming to an end. >> powell walked into my office, and without so much as a fair-thee-well, and he said i wonder what will happen when we put 5,000 troops in iraq and comb the country from one end to the other and find nothing? he turned around and walked back if his office. i wrote that down on my calendar as close to verbatim as i could because i thought that was a profound statement coming from the secretary of state, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. >> the documentary hubris selling the iraq war airs tonight hosted by rachel maddow. jake's very private world. at first, jake's family thought they saved 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journal congressional correspondent chris fraitz. thank you all very much. susan, the president did seem very emotional in that speech, much more personal, and he has really kept up the pressure for some action on guns. he has spoken of it a couple of times a week for the last couple of weeks. certainly at the state of the union it was the high point emotionally of that speech. >> it's interesting to hear the comments on friday because it's so rare that we hear that president is talking that personal way about his own father. i think this issue of gun control is one that he is sticking with to a degree that i think is a surprise to a lot of people, and we heard senator mccain say yesterday that he thought there was a good chance that universal background checks will get through the senate. now, that doesn't mean that it gets through the house, which is a tougher venue, and, of course, that is the only measure that we think there is a pretty good chance for expanding the background checks to include gun shows and other private gun sales. i think there's something that is possible that will happen this year, and, of course, what has it been a decade or so, more than a decade, since we have seriously talked about gun control on this panel. >> and what they have are separate bills which does give some little room for the people to take a vote, they can vote against the assault weapon ban or vote for background checks. they are taking it piece by piece here deliberately. >> that's true, but what i think -- i want to talk about the president's remarks. s he is talking -- he is reaching out over congress to a large degree and reaching out to the public. these are very personal remarks that we had a great story about this weekend, and i think it's just too -- when you look at the polls, 90% of the public agrees with background checks. it's -- you know, there's a great frustration with congress. i think he is going to keep up the pressure. he is seeing this with groups like bloomberg. are you seeing this with the gabby giffords' pact. this is a groundswell in the country that he is trying to tap into. >> well, we figure out whose cell phone -- it could even be mine. let's go on. chris fraitz, talk about, we have another senate republican resignation. mike johann is announcing. that is a safe republican seat, but it could make for an interesting primary. >> oh, absolutely. we have, you know, yet another moderate republican who is kind of throwing in the towel after just one term. of course, he is a former g. i don't think democrats are looking at this as a pick-up, but i think it's just another indication of how some of the kind of more moderate members of the congress are throwing in the towel. the cycle we saw a number of other similar announcements, and i wanted to go back a little bit to gun control, andrea. just because it's interesting when you talk about inside washington. we've had the president working outside. inside washington we have chuck schumer and tom coburn, who is -- who are working very closely. they had hoped to have a deal on background checks before the end of last week, before this recess. they were very close, and republicans and democrats were telling me they think they can get something that would have bipartisan support from joe manchin, democrat from west virginia, and mark kirk, a illi very moderate bipartisan senators bringing toward a bill. i would look for that after this week -- long recess is over. and also i would look to colorado today where you have the house of representatives who are putting a sweeping background check on the floor for a final vote. and a cap on magazine rounds, 15 rounds per magazine. that's a very moderate, you know, kind of purple state. i cover colorado politics for five or six years. and it's interesting to me to watch democrats who are essentially out there very much like east coast republicans pushing this forward. joe biden called four moderate state lawmakers on a democratic side to say please vote for this. so you have the white house involved there, too. trying to create some pressure to move this inside washington game outside. >> and susan pedro, i wanted to ask you as a long-time washington house correspondent and the bureau chief for "usa today," your take on the total blackout of any kind of photos of the president golfing this weekend with tiger woods. the press -- the white house correspondents' association has protested, the white house has pushed back. but it does seem as though they were really shut out. do you see an issue there, and why do you think the white house did that? >> i think the president has an obligation to explain himself to the american people. they have news conferences and do interviews. i'm inclined to think -- i'm less inflamed with the idea he would have a round of golf as being president. although playing golf with someone like tiger woods, everybody is going to want to see a picture of that. put a puck at your out. what's the big deal? >> the big deal may be that tiger woods is still controversial. >> that's true. i would say we had a great story by jackie collins this morning in "the times" who was down there, one of the reporters enormously frustrated. we would never have seen this trip a year ago, during election year. you can tell the president has won re-election. he's down in a very exclusive resort days after reaching out to middle class americans, working class americans in the state of union address and now in this very exclusive resort. it's also very much a boys' weekend. and no women around. the family is out skiing in the west. and he's down there with the boys. and he's come under a lot of pressure and criticism for his male insider circle. so -- >> the optics of it. thank you very much, elizabeth miller and susan page. and chris. we'll be right back. nobody insures more bikes than progressive. do you guys ride? well... no. sometimes, yeah. yes. well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here -- we got great coverage. it's not like bikers love their bikes more than life itself. i doubt anyone will even notice. leading the pack in motorcycle insurance. now, that's progressive. call or click today. aarrggh! with simple, real ingredients, like roasted peanuts, creamy peanut butter, and a rich dark-chocolate flavor, plus 10 grams of protein, so it's energy straight from nature to you. nature valley protein bars. and ruth marcus is back to bring it home. let's talk about something that happened last night. and no spoiler alert. we're not going to talk about the actual fact but it was the last episode of ""downton abbey," and it left us all distraught. >> distraught is a good word. there has been a lot for us "downton abbey" fans to cope with this season. and also i really hate the wait. to find out what -- where things go from here. >> our household, a lot of emotion. ruth marcus, see you soon. thank you very much. and that does it for us for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." if you haven't seen it, bring a lot of kleenex. and "news nation" is next with thomas roberts. for over 75 years people have saved money with...ohhh... ...with geico... ohhh...sorry! director's voice: here we go. from the top. and action for over 75 years people have saved money with gecko so.... director's voice: cut it! ...what...what did i say? gecko? i said gecko? aw... for over 75 year...(laughs. but still trying to keep it contained) director's voice: keep it together. i'm good. i'm good. for over 75...(uncontrollable lahtuger). what are you doing there? stop making me laugh. vo: geico. saving people money for over seventy-five years. gecko: don't look at me. don't look at me. all stations come over to mithis is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers. hi, everybody, i'm thomas roberts in for tamron hall. the nation is following the backlash to president obama's plan b. for immigration reform. first reported by "usa today," the white house calls for an eight-year path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants currently living in the u.s. the leap prompted scathing
leveled over the years with more attention in recent months. this weekend, bill cosby in his own words, under oath. details from a deposition are ten years old, but now everyone outside cosby and a few lawyers are seeing them for the first time. here's don dahler. >> reporter: 10 years ago, bill cosby was accused of drugging a molesting a young woman. "the new york times" obtained the transcripts of those four days of interviews. in them cosby admits to having numerous sexual encounters with at least five women and using numerous methods, including drugs, to make those possible. he boasted of his seduction skills. cosby admitted he was able to do it for years by trading exclusive interviews for tabloid silence. the deposition revealed his methods when he met the plaintiff andrea constand, he invited her to my house talking to her about personal situations dealing with her life, growth, education. cosby, now 78, testified at another time he gave constand 1 1/2 tablets of the allergy medicine benadryl. but constand stated she believed it was a much stronger drug. she said that's when cosby sexually molested her. as was reported earlier this week, cosby obtained prescription quaaludes for a back problem. instead, he gave them to women. the court transcripts reveal his cavalier attitude towards that. "the same as a person would, say, have a drink," he said. "when you got the quaaludes, was it in your mind that you were going to use these quaaludes for young women that you wanted to have sex with?" the lawyer asked. "yes," cosby answered. he admitted to offering constand money for education because he was afraid she would go public. the comedian, who has been married to camille cosby since 1964, recounted meeting a model in the 1980s. he asked about her father, who had died of cancer. "did you ask her those questions because you wanted to have sexual contact with her," the lawyer asked? "yes," cosby answered. despite a parade of accusers cosby has never been criminally charged. he is, however, facing numerous lawsuits, including two defamation suits. cbs legal analyst rikki klieman. >> it does put cosby in some legal jeopardy because this is an admission and we do know that the defamation lawsuits are still pending in massachusetts. it could be introduced as an admission. >> reporter: when he settled the lawsuit with constand for an undisclosed sum, the stories of 13 women who were set to testify that they too were molested by cosby were left untold, until that is this recent rash of allegations resurfaced. >> glor: thank you very much. the family of the gunman in the chattanooga shootings is speaking out for the first time since the attack that killed four marines and a sailor. here's jericka duncan. >> reporter: late last night the parents of 24-year-old muhammad youssef abdulazeez released a statement saying -- "there are no words to describe our shock, horror and grief. the person who committed this horrible crime was not the son we knew and loved. for many years, our son suffered from depression." federal investigators say they have received nearly 250 leads but abdulazeez recently visited this nearby public gun range where anyone with or without a license can go to practice shooting. among the weapons abdulazeez had with him at the time of the shootings were an ak-47, an ar- 15 assault rifle and a .45 caliber handgun. >> he dreamed of becoming a drill sergeant. >> reporter: church services honored the victims of the shootings. late this afternoon, police escorted the hearse carrying randall smith to the airport. meanwhile, people who knew abdulazeez continued to wonder what they missed. afzal sheikh who asked us not to show his face on camera regularly saw abdulazeez and his family at the mosque they attend. >> why did he do it? i just don't make any sense. >> reporter: did he seem depressed? his family said he suffered from depression. >> reporter: the only chattanooga police officer to be injured in the shooting, daniel padigo, is doing well. according to his family, the husband and father of four is in good spirits. >> glor: jericka duncan, thank you. george h.w. bush is out of the hospital today. he broke a bone in his neck. at 91, mr. bush uses a wheelchair to get around and suffers from parkinsons but he has stayed active and is expected to make a full recovery. donald trump is trying to recover from remarks he made yesterday about john mccain. but trump says he's not saying sorry. here's julianna goldman. >> reporter: here's what donald trump had to say today when asked if he needed to apologize to senator john mccain. >> you know, not at all. when i left the room, it was a total standing ovation. it was wonderful to see. nobody was insulted. >> reporter: but his republican rivals and party officials say otherwise. >> what he said yesterday, of course, is offensive about john mccain and inaccurate about john mccain. but it actually is offensive to all p.o.w.s. >> he needs to apologize to senator mccain and all the other men and women who have worn the uniform. >> donald trump, you're fired. (laughter) >> reporter: for weeks republicans had been struggling to confront the billionaire firebrand acknowledging trump's verbal grenades had landed with a section of the party sending him surging in the polls. >> they're bringing crime. they're rapists. i would build a wall the likes of which nobody has ever seen before. jeb bush, let's say he's president. ay-yi-yi. he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people who weren't captured, okay? i hate to say it. >> reporter: now they say insulting a tortured prisoner of war has crossed the line. and at today's vfw convention in pittsburgh, veterans weighed in. >> it offends every veteran. >> he was wrong, totally wrong. you got senator mccain, you know, any veteran that served in the service, especially a p.o.w., really is a great hero. >> reporter: republicans say their trump problem will now take care of itself, but that doesn't mean he's going away anytime soon. at least not before the first debate next month. >> i'm real comfortable being on the stage with him and confronting him on a host of issues that he's just wrong on. >> reporter: republican strategists tell us they think this is the beginning of the end for trump's candidacy, but they don't expect him to go quietly. still, it will take a few days to see how these latest comments are affecting him in the polls. jeff? >> glor: julianna, thank you. cuba is opening an embassy for the first time in over 50 years just blocks from the white house. and cuba's flag will be raised at the u.s. state department. cuba hopes the restored relations helps end the u.s. embargo. a 60-today review with the nuclear deal with iran. the huge consumer market once sanctions are lifted. here to explain, cbs' jill schlesinger. good to see you. the first point to talk about here is the oil markets. >> reporter: iran has the fourth largest proven oil reserve in the world. so what they're going to start to do if this deal gets signed is they're going to sell what's ever in storage or sitting in tankers. could take a couple of years though, for them to restart operations in the field. that said, just the notion of that additional supply coming online, crude oil down 10% in the last two weeks. >> glor: now prospects for other american businesses? >> reporter: there are big companies already doing business in iran, whether it's g.e. or coca-cola and in the world of the current situation. but with the sanctions being reduced, consumer companies, whether it's apple, boeing, i'm sure would like to really get in there and replace this aging fleet, some pharmaceutical companies, carmakers. there are 80 million people in iran. 60% of them are under the age of 30, and they tend to really like western brands. so there's a great opportunity there. >> glor: that said, there are some potential dangers and complications to doing business there. >> reporter: yes. this snap-back provision is really scary to businesses. and what it means is if iran does not comply, all those sanctions go back into effect, so if you're a risk averse as a company, you may not want to commit a lot of money and energy to this process if it's going to be reversed. i should also note that iran is a tough place to do business anyway. it is 130th on the world bank's ease of doing business list. i don't know what 129 is, but 130's pretty bad. >> glor: not a great place to be. jill, thank you very much. >> reporter: thank you. >> glor: a trip to a winery on the east end of new york's long island ended with a terrible tragedy this weekend when police say a drunk driver slammed into a limo carrying a bride-to-be and others. meg oliver has more. >> reporter: the crash scene on eastern long island shows the stretch limo crushed, a passenger door ripped off the car. four young women inside were killed. suffolk county assistant district attorney elizabeth miller. >> it was a bride. she survived and a group of friends. it was a group of women celebrating an upcoming wedding. >> reporter: it happened saturday evening. the driver and seven women were returning from a vineyard in the wine country. police say as the limo attempted a u-turn, a red pickup barreled into its side. police say three of the women died on impact. two others were hospitalized with serious injuries. the victims from new york include 23-year-old britney shulman of smithtown, 23-year- old amy grabina from commack stephanie belly from kings park, and lauren baruch from smithtown. the driver of the pickup, 55- year-old steve romeo, was arrested for drunk driving. he was arraigned sunday on $1 million bond. his lawyer, daniel o'brien. >> tragic event. condolences to all the families that are involved. >> reporter: the driver of the limousine, 58-year-old carlos pino was also hospitalized. he will not face charges. the limousine company released this statement: "this was a tragic accident on what should have been a happy day for a group of young women. we pray for the victims and for the families as they go through this unimaginable time." the crash was so violent, it nearly cut the limo in half. the district attorney told meto he's looking to upgrade those charges against the truck driver. jeff? >> glor: meg, thank you. one of the world's top surfers was attacked by a shark today. and their cars were towed from a freeway inferno. now they have to pay. when the "cbs evening news" continues. when the "cbs evening news" continues. he's older so he needs my help all day. when my back pain flared up we both felt it i took tylenol at first but i had to take 6 pills to get through the day. then my friend said "try aleve". just two pills, all day. and now, i'm back for my best bud! aleve. all day strong and try aleve pm now with an easy open cap. ♪ ♪ just because your bladder is changing doesn't mean you have to. with tena's unique super-absorbent micro-beads that lock in moisture and odor... you can keep finding your groove. tena - lets you be you. unbelievable! toenail fungus? seriously? smash it with jublia! jublia is a prescription medicine proven to treat toenail fungus. use jublia as instructed by your doctor. look at the footwork! most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness, itching, swelling burning or stinging, blisters, and pain. smash it! make the call and ask your doctor if jublia is right for you. new larger size now available. ♪ ♪ it may seem strange, but people really can love their laxative. especially when it's miralax. it hydrates, eases and softens to unblock your system naturally so you have peace of mind from start to finish. love your laxative. miralax. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic why pause to take a pill? 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(alarm sounding). >> all of a sudden, i felt my -- started getting pulled under water. and then the thing came up, and i was on my board and it was like right there. i saw the -- like the whole thing just thrashing around. but i was getting dragged under by my leg rope. >> reporter: fanning said he punched the shark a couple of times, and it just kept coming. he's seen frantically swimming for his life. >> it had a go at me, so i just turned around so i could at least see it coming. and then before i knew it, the boat was there, the jet skis were there. >> reporter: also there was fellow australian surfer and finalist julian wilson in the red, who, instead of fleeing himself, tried to come to his friend and rival's rescue. >> i was like, please god. i felt like i couldn't get there quick enough. >> reporter: the world surf league canceled the rest of the event. fanning and wilson will split the prize money. >> i just want all my family and friends at home to know i'm okay. i'm just trippin' out. i'm okay. >> reporter: despite that close call, fanning says he will compete again when it's safe to go back in the water. charlie d'agata, cbs news, london. >> glor: some had to ditch their cars when a wildfire crossed highway 15. they were charged $100 and more to get their vehicles back. one woman told the tv station she was billed $1,600 before negotiating it down. others paid between $400 and $600. up next, our report from a rapidly shrinking island. dly shrinking island. then... wham! a minivan t-bones you. guess what: your insurance company will only give you 37-thousand to replace it. 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i'm mo greene. >> glor: the gangster who comes to a dishonorable end to the corleone family. later he had roles on "the simpsons" and "the facts of life." he was 79 years old. still ahead, our interview with the nba coach, breaking down barriers. he was 79 years old. still ahead, our interview with the nba coach, breaking down barriers. support your muscle health? boost® high protein nutritional drink can help you get the protein you need. each serving has 15 grams of protein to help maintain muscle, plus 26 vitamins and minerals including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones. boost® high protein is the #1 selling high protein complete nutritional drink and it has a great taste-guaranteed! help get the nutrition you need everyday with boost® high protein. join the club at brandpower.com. seems like we've hit a road block. that reminds me... anyone have occasional constipation, diarrhea... ...gas, bloating? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against occasional digestive issues. with three types of good bacteria. live the regular life. phillips'. going out for date night with your man is nice... ...but i think women would agree... ...snuggling up after is kinda nice too. but here's the thing: about half of men over 40 have some degree of erectile dysfunction. well, viagra helps guys with ed get and keep an erection. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing upset stomach and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. ask your doctor about viagra. now available in new single packs. feeling intense knee pain? 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>> i wouldn't change any of it. me tearing my acl landed me in the film room of the spurs.or >> reporter: spurs coach gregg popovich knew all about hammon who had played eight years in san antonio. they often discussed basketball strategy. last year popovich named her assistant coach, the first woman ever to hold that title. now she's the team's summer league head coach. >> it takes some courageous men to hand women opportunities. everybody's talking about me being the first -- well, gregg popovich handed me this hammer to kind of smash this glass ceiling. >> reporter: the nba summer league is where rookies and veterans try to prove their value. same with the coaches. what does it take to be a good coach? >> you have to get people to buy in that do you know what you're talking about. >> reporter: hammon admits to being nervous. >> honestly, coming in, that was probably one of the my biggest questions is, are these guys going to respect me? >> reporter: rookie point guard shannon scott quickly put that concern to rest. >> she had a great mind. she knows what she want out of her players. and she's very straightforward about it. i believe she's shown that she's a great basketball coach. and i think everybody's starting to realize that now. >> reporter: hammon says her biggest satisfaction will come when people drop the label first female coach and just call her coach. >> i don't want to downplay the significance of it. because it is a big deal. i get that. but i also want it to be known i was hired because i was qualified. >> reporter: her actions on the court speak for themselves. carter evans, cbs news, las vegas. >> glor: that is the "cbs evening news" tonight. later on cbs, "60 minutes" and first thing tomorrow "cbs this morning." i'm jeff glor in new york. good night. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org under arrest in the bay area the man accused of killing five people in a house in modesto, what we're learning about the man and his relationship to the victims. >> your health is needed to catch this arsonist caught on video setting fire to a gay pride mural. >> and it's truly disgusting, but it's drawing huge crowds, the wretched flower that's about to bloom in a bi live from the cbs bay area studios this is kpix5 news. new information tonight on
three-page justice department memo from two days back saying that comey was fired as head of the fbi because he'd been mean to hillary clinton, that was never really the reason. the president said today he was going to fire him regardless. but we digress. this was an eventful day. 112 of the trump presidency. we've learned that the administration's full-court press this week from sean spicer briefing in the dark between two bushes on the white house lawn to the vice president on capitol hill, the full-court press to say that comey was fired because of miss handling the clinton e-mails, that was all wasted effort, reversed today by the president who said he'd already decided comey was a goner. the president maids the admission in an interview with lester holt. it drove the news cycle today and continues tonight. here now are the salient portions of that conversation. >> monday, you met with the deputy attorney general rose steen. >> yes. >> did you ask? >> i was going to fire comey. my decision. >> you had made the decision before they came in. >> i was going to fire comey. he made a recommendation. regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey, knowing there was no good time to do it. and in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know this russian thing with trump and russia, it's a madeup excuse of the democrats for losing an election that they should have won. this is an excuse. >> are you angry with mr. comey because of the russia investigation? >> i just want someone that's competent. i'm a big fan of the finn. >> how is the white house going to answer this question tomorrow? the questions about his campaign and russia and the answer you saw. the quote from the president is this "in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, i know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story" and a reminder tonight of the lengths the administration went to to push a false narrative that a deputy attorney general citing clinton's e-mails recommended to the e-mails that comey had to go and so the president acted upon its. >> i think the president was p given a recommendation by the deputy attorney general who the fbi director reports to. >> i would point them to the three letters that were received today, a letter by president donald trump, the letter by attorney general sessions and the underlying report rosenstein. >> by accepting the recommendation of the deputy attorney general to remove director comey as the head of the fbi, because of the actions that the deputy attorney general outlined to the president. the president made the right decision at the right time. >> there was a lot of that. another point generating questions tonight from this interview today. did the president cross a line when he called james comey to ask if he was personally under investigation as he said he did. and the reason we know the president did this, is he admitted it on video. >> when you're under investigation, you give necessity all sorts of documents and everything. i knew i wasn't under. and i heard it was stated at the committee yet. at some committee tlaefl i wasn't. number one. >> so they didn't -- >> then during the phone call he said it and during another phone call he said it. he said it once at dinner and he said it twice during phone calls. >> did you call him? >> in one case i called him and in one case he called me. >> did you ask him if you're under investigation? >> i asked him. i said if it is possible to ask you, am i under investigation? he said you're not under investigation. >> tonight, comey's side. the headline in a private dinner trump demanded loyalty. comey demured. more on that in a moment. there's something else here. sara huckaby sandleders filling in for sean spicer has gone to great lengths to say james comey had lost the support of the people within the fbi. >> most importantly, the rank and file of the fbi had lost confidence in their director. i think it really came down, the bottom line was he'd lost the respect, not only of the rank and file within the fbi, democrats and plujs alike. i've heard from countless members of the fbi that are grateful and thankful for the president's decision. >> the problem with that is the new interim director of the fbi, a 21 year veteran appeared before congress and was asked about the rank and file at the fbi. >> is it accurate that the rank and file no longer supported director comey? >> no, sir. that is not accurate. i can tell you also that director comey enjoyed broad support within the fbi and still does to this day. i can confidently tell you that the majority, the vast majority of fbi employees enjoyed a deep and positive connection to director comey. >> let's bring in tonight's panel, shall we? white house bureau chief for the washington post, a man whose name has been on some extraordinary bylines, and the newest on air host at this network who picked quite a week to debut her new broadcast deadline white house 4:00 p.m. eastern time week day. and reporter for the wall street journal. film, you get to go first because you were the one -- talk about it a bit -- who picked up on this linkage between russia investigation and comey in the president's answer. >> yeah, that was a really remarkable admission from the president in his interview with lester holt that's actually going to be leading the washington post newspaper tomorrow morning. russia and his decision to fire comey, he said he kept thinking about the russia, trump-russia story. he didn't necessarily explain that it was a probe but to him it was a clear link average in his mind. he was thinking about russia when he made the decision about comey. >> what happened today? what did we just witness? >> we were talking before coming out here. i worked for a president who had plenty of tough days and plenty of legitimate critics but i was never undermined by my boss. when i went out and said something, i checked with my boss. that was through a terrorist attack, two washes, a hurricane response that brought a lot of critics from all over the place. i can't imagine functioning in this environment andst problem that -- the problem that we have, heaven that covers this white house, there are no credible spokes people. i don't know who you call anymore. sean spicer has been undermined. day one he was undermined. he was sent out with a picture and told to lie about words to describe it. i have a five-year-old who knows the difference between more and less. sara was insisting, so was kellyanne that this memo was the reason he fired comey. he went out there with lester holt and said i'm giving my own story, never mind that it undermines everybody from my vice president to my press secretary. >> there is a political piece tonight just before we tame out here that says president trump spent many of the first 48 hours after he fired his fbi director grumbling to friends and associates about his lousy media coverage and about the shortcomings of his senior aides. then after he went on television to give his own contradictory version of events, he made it worse. this reads tonight like the press shop leaking about their -- kountder leaking about their boss. how do you squash these answers? how do you square what you see from the podium to what you now know to be true? >> generally what you see them saying on the record from the podium is probably the least likely to be true. that headline, tried to fix something, made it worse, is more or less the story of the first 112 days of this administration. he sits in the office, lights the room on fire and gets angry that the fire department is not the there yet. he startsed this. it was in the letter that he sent to comey saying in the second paragraph, by the way, thanks for con exonerating me on three separate occasions. they spent two days trotting out surrogates and staffers trying to give him an alibi. they alienate the deputy attorney general, the vice president who's trying to carry this narrative and then it comes back to, oh, well, i fired him all along when i was thinking about russia, which was obvious but -- >> and you remember -- >> to prevare kalts. >> we weren't running upstairs at quarter to 6:00 tuesday when the news broke and the whole conversation in the aftermath was about the fact that the president had fired the man investigating his campgn's ties to russia and how tone deaf can you be and h could a staff have let him do that. well, now we know. you look at these stories. they're critiquing his organization's ability to manage a crisis. he's a crisis creator, so wait until the country deals with a real crisis not of the president's creation. that's where this goes from being sort of entertaining to bewildering. >> this is a crisis in its own way. the world is watching. >> but they are all of his own making. >> this is diminishing in eyes around the world, our democracy. >> does it sund fam to you that a president would be angry with his press shop, take it upon himself to book a sit-down interview with a major network, answer off the cuff, and change the entire narrative that the structure of the presidency had been set up to answer? >> well, you know what? this is donald trump's presidency and it's grump's white house, and some of what eli and cole have been saying is exactly right. he created these problems and didn't bring in enough of his senior staff early enough to seek their advice and counsel to help manage this at the fronts end. the other problem is among the senior staff there's noebel who can really say no to him. we hear about his son-in-law and daughter being these moderating dplienss on him. my reporting shows that they knew about what was about to happen with comey and didn't do anything about it. >> so surprise, nobody wanted a piece of this. phil did it dawn on you as it did us watching this interview today, it's all defense, no offense? at the 100-day mark to not be out talking about shovel ready initiatives around the country, putting americans back to work, tax plan, infrastructure, you piece of this. phil did it dawn on you as it did us watching this interview today, it's all defense, no offense? at the 100-day mark to not be out talking about shovel ready initiatives around the country, putting americans back to work, tax plan, infrastructure, you name it -- >> yeah. >> -- no sell job, no offense? >> no and it's a real setback for him where he wanted to seize on the success of last week. he wanted to move the tax plan forward. remember, they put out the blueprint for the tax plan and that's gone nowhere. another important thing, he's actually headed overseas next week. he's got a major trip to four different countries. a lot at stake. he had cleared his schedule for this week to prepare and do briefings and get ready for that trip. obviously he's spending a lot of time this week fuming over the comey kriesz is. >> republicans on the hill suspended animation. >> republicans on the hill have been pathetic in sponges to comey. the republican party uchd to stand strong against trump -- i'm sorry -- against putin's actions in the neighborhood. >> i remember that. >> remember those day? you're too young. it's really, i think, a sad day. i think i counted four republicans who questioned not the action -- in fairness to trump, he has the right -- >> not running against. >> he has the right to fire his fbi director. but the timing is what's so suspicious. i think everybody sort of is aware of the fact that the investigations on every front are heating up, on the flynn front, the senate intel community. jeff blake, john mccain, burr, and -- those are a handful, literally, of republicans expressing concern with the timing. but i think it's really a dire moment where the republicans sorts of fall into line behind a president that, at best, is creating cries that his staffer can't keep up to clean up. >> i mentioned that we're starting to see the comey part of the story emerge. this is new york times tonight. this is about the dinner. as they it's, the president and mr. comey made small talk about the election and the crowd sizes at mr. trump's rallies. president then turned the conversation to whether mr. comey would pledge his loyalty to him. mr. comey declined to make that pledge. by mr. comey's accounts, his answer to mr. trump's initial question apparently didn't satisfy the president. mr. trump pressed himtd on whether it would be honest loyalty. you will have that, mr. comey told his associates, he sponltded. incredible. >> this is donald trump talking about loyalty test as mtd even from the politically independent fbi director. maybe he doejt know. maybe there's something nefarious, maybe it's both. but when you step back, what it reads to me is this is something that the former fbi director probably told staffers about and said when i get fired, leak this. but the white house in the story says they dispute the narrative. if the white house had any credibility, that assertion might kill a story like that. in this case, it doesn't. when we hear the white house pushing back on things, the communications department saying that's completely not true. >> it doesn't mean anything anymore. >> you don't really believe it. >> phil, did i read correctly, 30 sources, if last big byline piece in the washington post, 33 and a zero? >> it was actually mor than 30 but we rounded it up. that was yesterday's story. >> phil you've probably missed two or three stories newjust in the time you've spent in conversation with us. best of luck in the -- >> i appreciate its. >> ok. nicole wallace, eli stoke lgs obviously here with us in the studio. coming up, the president himself exposes his own communications team and his own vp who now have been caught telling a false version of events. we'll talk about it when "did 11th hour" continues. the show's about to start! how do i look? like a bald penguin. 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[ laughing ] xfinity x1 gives you exclusive access to the best of the billboard music awards just by using your voice. the billboard music awards. sunday, may 21st eight seven central only on abc. welcome back. we mentioned earlier the differing messages coming from the acting director of the fbi and the white house on what rank and file employees in the fbi, 36,000 people work for the fbi, thought about former director james comey. deputy press second sara huckaby sanders was pressed about the inconsistency in the briefing room today. >> i certainly heard from a large number of individuals and that's just myself and i don't even know that many people in the fbi. >> you said now and i think you said yesterday that you personally have talked to countless fbi officials, employees, since this happened. >> correct. >> i mean, really? like -- >> i mean -- >> are there so many -- >> between e-mail, text messages, absolutely. >> 60, 70? >> look, we're not getting into a numbers game. i have heard from a large number of individuals thatwork at the fbi that said that they're very happy with the president's decision. >> what do we define as countless. the new york times reporter you saw asking the questions, michael sheer is with us tonight. we're awfully happy to have him. nicole wallace has been asked to stay behinds so she can represent the other side there of the communications shop. michael, how -- what has this done where the challenges of your job are concerned? like compared to a good day in maybe another administration? >> well, look, i mean, let's not paint the previous administration's completely, you know, innocent here. >> rights. >> we had our fights -- i mean, i covered all eight years of obama and i had many, many fights in that room back and forth with various press secretaries. nicole certainly knows what it's like to be on the other side in that room. it can get tense. there's a back and forth that always happens. i think the thing that's so striking and it goes to what you guys were talking about earlier today -- is that there is some basic level of trust that you have to have as a reporter and spokesperson. i think my kind of reaction to sara today was the culmination of a couple of days of frustration where we saw the stories just changing. and we all were sitting in that briefing room really understanding in our core that what they were telling us about the reasons for why the president fired jim comey didn't make any sense. they didn't make any sense for them from their perspective. so when you get down to what is at the end of the day a kind of little fact about did sara talk to countless numbers of fbi agents or not? it just seems like a ridiculous thing and a ridiculous thing to say. and it just felt like it needed to be challenged. >> and nicole, tonight, still i saw trump surrogates on the air talking about how mean comey had been to hillary clinton on the subject of e-mails. like they need to update their memos. >> i used to talk elizabeth miller, peter baker, white house corresponds covering bush. the fights we used to have were about -- i think what michael was trying to do was challenge the veracity of her assertion that she'd heard from countless fbi agents. i don't know how she'd know countless fbi agents. i know a little more than a dozen and i reached out to all of them and every one of them was and is loyal to jim comey. so it's sort of odd that she found countless that were thrilled that he'd been fired. i only know a little more than a dozen. when you lose the ability to speak with credibility from behind the podium, you're supposed to leave the podium. and i don't know how they're expected to do their job when one, they don't check with the president on the way to the briefing room, two, the president undermines and throws them under the bus as does this politico story we talked about. everyone's willing to throw the press up under the bus. they're brought in an hour before a major announcement. and again, i'm not speaking from some place on high. we have plenty of critics in the press and out. i was never sent out to lie. if i had, i would have quit. >> yeah. michael, i was going to say i covered the clinton years with mike mccurry at that podium. sitting in the front row, at least you got the feeling that he was not cents in that room to lie and was not trying to bat questions away but was doing level best to pay forward good information. about the personalities, and it ask this because it's jermaine, we're talking about sara huck by sanders who's had two days in the slot because sean spicer is doing service. she's back tomorrow and i can't believe i'm saying this. melissa mccarthy is host on saturday night live this weekend. but it's jermaine. >> i think that's partly the times we're living in. media people become personalities in a way they haven't been in past administrations, so i think in some ways that's just destined to happen. clearly, one of the things that characterized the beginning of this administration, the first few months was these outsighed overdone, sense of chaos, the sense of the intensity that turned sean spicer, let's face it, from a guy we all knew as sort of a run of the mill washington republican communicator into a kind of household name that is mocked -- who is mocked on saturday night live. that's something that doesn't usually happen. i can't imagine nicole felt like she had become that necessarily, very quickly, at least. so -- >> i feel like -- yeah, your point is taken. >> i think just to make one last point here. i think that i have a little bit of sympathy for sean and sara and everybody else in that administration who isn't donald trump. at the end of the day donald trump is driving this train. he's the guy, remember that remarkable press conference in the east room earlier in the year where he just sort of decided that he wasn't getting good enough press and had this 77-minute press conference that none of his aides had planned for even a couple hours before. he's the only one who thinks he can get decent press, so he's never satisfied with anything anybody else can say for him and that's got to be frustrating. >> what has been a great period, michael sheer is one of the great bylines to look for on a daily basis. >> thank you. >> nicole wallace, we'lling look at you for p.m. tomorrow from this very studio. >> sit in that chair for a few days. >> i know, i know. >> thank you. >> coming up, calls for a special prosecutor and questions tonight as to whether president trump may have actually obstructed justice. i'll speak with a former u.s. attorney when we return. if you want to stay on top of your health, one simple thing to do -- is take the pledge to go and get screened for the cancers that might affect you. so stand up to cancer and take the pledge at getscreenednow.org it only takes a minute to take care of yourself, and nothing rhymes with "org"... it's clear to me now more than ever that an independent special counsel must be appointed. >> there is no question that an independent special prosecutor must be appointed. >> we need to have a special prosecutor. >> i call upon republicans of conscious to stand up and join the call for a special prosecutor. >> a special prosecutor should now be appointed to conduct the investigation into the trump campaign's ties to russia. >> more on the mixture of terminology we just heard there in a moment. democrats argue the president's firing of james comey is just the latest reason why, as you may have heard, we need a special prosecutor to look into russian interference in the election and then some. i want to bring into the conversation tonight a former u.s. attorney for the district of the state of new jersey, paul fishman. he was in that lowell until president trump asked for the rez ig nations of 46 u.s. attorneys back in march. counsel oar, thank you very much for coming in. let's start with this. we saw a mixture of three -- >> four terms. >> people ask me the difference between special counsel, special prosecutor, independent counsel and int pent special counsel. how do we delineate these? >> i think it's maybe because we've had all those different flavors over the last 30 or 40 years, brian. what people tend to think of independent counsels, they tend to think of the statue that was in effect for 20 years or so in the 1980s and 1990s which led to kent star investigating whites water. that was a statue passed by congress that provided that the attorney general or the acting attorney general went to a three judge court and asked for a special counsel. >> just a good lawyer that they knew of? >> a lawyer they knew of. ken starr, flrp a whole bunch of them during the reagan and bush administration and the clinton administration. that statue expired in 1999. lt at the end of the day there were a lot of people dissatisfied with the way the statue operated. congress never reenact another stauchlt instead, the justice department itself promulgated regulations that provide that the attorney general or if the attorney general is recused as he is in this particular instance. >> right. >> -- the deputy attorney general can himself appoint a special counsel, as it's called in the regulations. under that rubric, the deputy attorney general himself in this case would pick a special counsel from outside the government, somebody who the regulations prescribe has to be someone of great integrity and experience and the like. in this case deputy attorney general rosenstein would give the jurisdictional statement to that person and say here's what i'm asking you to investigate. these people or these things. and that's how it would work. >> they'd have subpoena power and all those broad powers? >> that person would have all the power that the united states attorney or any other senior justice official would have to conduct those investigations. the there's a third one that's not actually written in the regulations. it's the one ironically that jim comey himself used when he was the deputy attorney general to appoint pat fitzgerald to investigate the scooter libby events in 2003. >> the chicago lawyer, right? >> he was the u.s. toernl in chicago. rather than being somebody from outside the government comey -- and he and jim comey had been assistance u.s. attorneys together in the southern district of new york earlier. they were friends. he trusted pat fitzgerald. he brought him in not under the regs as a special counsel but called him a special counsel and gave him all the authority the attorney general himself would have had. which is broader than the regulation. >> i'm going to ask a lawyer for an explanation in 30 seconds. what's the triggering mechanism? does it have to come out of justice? can the u.s. senate decide on a person? >> i don't think that they can. i think the only provision is that the department of justice itself conveys the authority. le. >> paul fishman former u.s. attorney in new jersey. thank you very much. you've helped to clarify this. we may call upon you again to do the same thing. thanks for coming by tonight. coming up after this break, can anyone speak for president trump except for president trump. the 11th hour continues after this. i think we were absolutely given the information that we could have at that time. it was a quick moving process. >> and would you say that that information was accurate then or is nor accurate now? >> i would say that after having a conversation with the president, you don't get much more accurate than that. >> welcome back to the 11th hour. the question of whether the white house press corps and the american people can trust the word of the press secretary came up today. here is more of that exchange between sara sanders and major garrett. >> should reporters and the country essentially wait for a pronouncement from the president before believing that which is stated on his behalf by the white house communications staff? >> look, major, i'm not going to get into back-and-forth that we have to have like a direct quote every single time. you guys want to get lost in the process -- >> i don't think a question and giving an answer is lost in the process, sara, with all respect. >> and i'm answering those questions. it's very simple. the president decided to fire director comey. nobody else gets to make that decision, and he made it. he stangds by it. as do the rest of it. >> lisa bring in our guest former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs, rick stengel, who also happens to be former managing editor of time magazine. and our friend historian presidential biographer and author, john meech ham comes back on the broadcast with us. john, i'll ginl with you. major garrett is a good guy and a solid journalist and was not being facetious when he said do we have to wait for the president's pro noumt. you and i have talked before about this president who lacks a baseline of history in the presidency that politicians with their eyes on this prize all their eyes on have. it's nobody's fault he came from a different world. is that also -- does that translate into not knowing that there are certain riles, moreas and laws that sometimes govern your comments? >> well, president trump is like all of us, to some extent, a prison of his own experience. this is a man who has been reported actually prethe ended to be his own spokesman in the tabloid years. >> john miller. >> john miller and john bare ron. so i think when the history of the trump administration is written, there are going to be a couple of really important historical figures who are anti-seedents here. one is joe kohn who tutored trump in the art of changing the story, going for the headline, fighting wars in the tabloids. the other is rupert murdock who helped create that culture in the modern era in new york, and up think that essentially, what we're seeing -- and rick has been in this position when he's serveging the country -- there is this -- to use an old watergate phrase, there is this enormous credibility gap. one parenthetical prumplt has explained why he did it but will that be the explanation tomorrow? >> right. and rick, the reason it's important to believe that podium and the person standing behind it is tomorrow's briefing, god forbid, may be about a u.s. military action we have taken overnight overseas. and we may have to detail the satellite evidence that led us to make that decision. its has to be believable just as every word from that podium has to be believable. >> yes, but i would say that with all due respect to major garrett, the question is a little bit disingenuous in the sense that nobody has the reality the way the president himself has the reality, whether he re-arranges it or not. every time you're up at that podium you're trying to translate something that you know that's imperfect in a way that at least is plausible and truthful to the people sitting there. i mean,ity think somebody mentioned mike mccurry earlier. >> that was me. >> who -- yes. who i think set the standard for best press secretary. he had the phrase what's your job. my job is to tell the truth, slowly. >> that's right. he was adept at that. >> some of that is because you know things that you can't say, how can you say things that you know that are truthful with -- and be able to protect your boss, the president, and be able to protect the american people and that's something when you're in government all the time, things that you just can't talk about. but you can't be untruthful, either. >> john meacham, you have spent time with this president. in the life of presidents, the great thing about being historian is most of the modern era presidents have had p historians in because they're into your line of work and the books you've written and they've read them and want to discuss them. without sharing what you can shair about private sometime you've spent with this president, what tratsz have you reflected back on watching him these past just few days? >> i declare i haven't spoken directly with president trump i think since june or july of last year, so that should be clear. but i think what we see here is he is self-aware in this sense. when i ask him in that series of questions for rick's alma mater for time last summer, it was about were there a -- kwr there analogous figures in his mind, were there case studies in his mind about different presidents as he prepared for the presidency and we ended up talking about babe ruth and lydia ko, the great asian american golfer. babe ruth had been asked according to trump, hey, babe, how do you hit the long ball? and ruth said i don't know. i just swing at it. and trump said i just swing at it. and lydia ko was asked how do you hit your shots and she said i don't know. i just hit the ball. thaerls no lucy and the football here. he is a gut player. it's instiktdive, and he is totally convinced that he can bully his way through almost any situation, and why wouldn't you believe that if you had his life experience and you were the president of the united states. >> only man who can quote lydia ko and charles schultz in the same paragraph. >> by the way, you leave out the fact -- despite john's long resume -- that he was editor of news week. >> i don't want to get into these petty competition between you guys. >> our competition is over. >> give me 30 seconds on a great period for journalism even if the paper form may not be what it used to be. >> i think it is a great period of journal. >> give me 30 seconds on a great period for journalism even if the paper form may not be what it used to be. >> i think it is a great period of journal. now. there's a great topic to cover, but i think journalists also feel like they have a real mission now. there's a great challenge. the fact you've been talking all night about you have a president who prevaricates by his very nature, that's a challenge to everybody in the fifth estate and people are rising to that challenge and i'm proud of them and rooting them on. >> a starter reading list for book buyers watching tonight. by meacham's biography of george hw bush, stengel's by og fi of nelson mandella. gentlemen, thank you both very much for coming on tonight. coming up behind the scenes at the white house, what it's like when the president has guests over for dinner, a first-hand account. speaking of journalism, when the 11th hour continues. if you want to stay on top of your health, one simple thing to do -- is take the pledge to go and get screened for the cancers that might affect you. so stand up to cancer and take the pledge at getscreenednow.org it only takes a minute to take care of yourself, and nothing rhymes with "org"... if you want to stay on top of your health, one simple thing to do -- is take the pledge to go and get screened for the cancers that might affect you. so stand up to cancer and take the pledge at getscreenednow.org it only takes a minute to take care of yourself, and nothing rhymes with "org"... welcome back. the night before firing fbi director comey, president trump invited time magazine for dinner at the white house. it was a charm offense to be sure, as the president touted his achievements. showed off of tivo and said at one point, watch them start to choke like dogs. they are desperate for breath. it's all part of a fascinating cover story. came out just today in time magazine titled "donald trump after hours." i'm joined by the co-author zeke miller white house correspondent for time. let's talk about the division aspect. it comes roaring through your journalism, a piece i could not stop reading today. in almost a kuczynski-chauncey-gardner way, writ large and updated, it truly is how he takes in the world. and his tivo remote is his passport to the world. >> yeah. that's certainly true as he was pulling up that hearing on monday that clapper-sally yates hearing. he had it child in for us to come in and he was going to hit play. he had to go h go scrolling through the archives. we were able to see bits of tivo clips from several weeks back of cable news shows that he had been watching and saving for other such opportunities. and it was almost like watching your favorite football team on sunday. otherwise because he's living the life of bachelor with his wife and son here in new york while he pursues his skoomg, this president's kind of banging around in that big old house every night, is he not? sunday. otherwise because he's living the life of bachelor with his wife and son here in new york while he pursues his skoomg, this president's kind of banging around in that big old house every night, is he not? >> yeah. every president sort of adapts to the building somewhat differently with the first lady and bare ron trump in new york, the president is essentially all alone in that 20,000 square foot mansion all alone most nights. the reason we wanted to tell this story was he doesn't sleep very much at night. he spends 10, 11 hours a day in the west wing. what does he do with the rest of his time? we wanted to tell that side of the story. he hosts these dinners just about every night, in this case for reportsers, but ceos, political supporters, cabinet secretaries, white house staffers, some combination therein. he'll give them a tour of the residence level, show them the lincoln bedroom, show them other parts of the the white house, engage them in discussion and retire upstairs to make phone calls. it is sort of an odd experience right now where did -- in our immediate past experience president barack obama had that sort of >> did he seem happy to >> did he seem happy to share all this with you? >> he seemed very happy. he is the ultimate host in a lot of ways. the vice president who is also at dinner wednesday, one of the things that he most admires about the president is his sense of hospitality. this is not obviously done in a vacuum. this is the president trying to get his message across, trying to essentially butter up a bunch of reporters to get a story that serves his message. but also, in a lot of ways this is analogous to his career as a condo developer. he is trying to build up an artifice, put on a great show, put on the best for sure for the thing he is selling, in this case it's his presidency. and one of the things that came through and was striking for us i know on monday night was his sense that he wasn't able to connect with the voters. he kept going back to all i want to do is cut taxes, get health care reform done, and then they'll like me. except they don't like me and therefore i have to fight. it was very odd that kept copping through throughout the interview. >> hope he doesn't think about building condos out on the backyard. zeke miller, thank you so much. and what a great account you have written in the issue of "time" magazine that just came out today. thank you so much for being with us. coming up after our final break, new reporting during this broadcast on that comey-trump dinner. we're back with that right after this. i feel it every day. but at night, it's the last thing on my mind. for 10 years my tempur-pedic has adapted to my weight and shape, relieving pressure points from head to toe. so i sleep deeply but feel light. and wake up ready to perform. even with the weight of history on my shoulders. find your exclusive retailr at tempur-pedic.com from the website of nbc news, i've just been handed some great reporting by ken delaney and pete williams. it's a narrative of the trump-comey din they're the president kind of indicated might have been requested by comey who wanted to stay on in the job beside being four years into a ten-year term. here is the first quote. the january dinner meeting between the two men the sources said was requested by the white house. and the former senior fbi official said comey would never have told the president he was not under investigation. that contradicts what the president said. quote, he tried to stay away from it, the russian ties investigation, says this former official of comey, who worked closely with comey. keeps in touch with him. he would say, look, sir, i really can't get into it. and you don't want me to on the subject of russia. here is another quote. the president is not correct, this former official said. the white house called him, comey, out of the blue. comey didn't want to do the dinner. he didn't even want the rank and file at the fbi to know about it. but in the end, he, the president is still the commander in chief. he is your boss. how do you say no? another great piece of reporting that will now be part of tomorrow's news agenda. that does it for our broadcast here tonight. thank you for being here with us. good night from new york. i was going to fire comey. there is no good time to do it. >> are you angry with mr. comey because of his russia investigation? >> i just want somebody who is competent. i'm a big fan of the fbi. >> did you ask him to drop the investigation? >> no, never. >> did anyone from the white house? no. in fact, i want the investigation speeded up. >> president trump sits down for his first interview since firing fbi director, james comey. there are new questions about the timeline. >> the new acting fbi
emerge. and why the president and his staff have struggled so mightily to keep their stories straight at this white house. the # 1th hour begins now. >> and good evening once again. while we think of it, that three-page justice department memo from two days back saying that comey was fired as head of the fbi because he'd been mean to hillary clinton, that was never really the reason. the president said today he was going to fire him regardless. but we digress. this was an eventful day. 112 of the trump presidency. we've learned that the administration's full-court press this week from sean spicer briefing in the dark between two bushes on the white house lawn to the vice president on capitol hill, the full-court press to say that comey was fired because of miss handling the clinton e-mails, that was all wasted effort, reversed today by the president who said he'd already decided comey was a goner. the president maids the admission in an interview with lester holt. it drove the news cycle today and continues tonight. here now are the salient portions of that conversation. >> monday, you met with the deputy attorney general rose steen. >> yes. >> did you ask? >> i was going to fire comey. my decision. >> you had made the decision before they came in. >> i was going to fire comey. he made a recommendation. regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey, knowing there was no good time to do it. and in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know this russian thing with trump and russia, it's a madeup excuse of the democrats for losing an election that they should have won. this is an excuse. >> are you angry with mr. comey because of the russia investigation? >> i just want someone that's competent. i'm a big fan of the finn. >> how is the white house going to answer this question tomorrow? the questions about his campaign and russia and the answer you saw. the quote from the president is this "in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, i know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story" and a reminder tonight of the lengths the administration went to to push a false narrative that a deputy attorney general citing clinton's e-mails recommended to the e-mails that comey had to go and so the president acted upon its. >> i think the president was p given a recommendation by the deputy attorney general who the fbi director reports to. >> i would point them to the three letters that were received today, a letter by president donald trump, the letter by attorney general sessions and the underlying report rosenstein. >> by accepting the recommendation of the deputy attorney general to remove director comey as the head of the fbi, because of the actions that the deputy attorney general outlined to the president. the president made the right decision at the right time. >> there was a lot of that. another point generating questions tonight from this interview today. did the president cross a line when he called james comey to ask if he was personally under investigation as he said he did. and the reason we know the president did this, is he admitted it on video. >> when you're under investigation, you give necessity all sorts of documents and everything. i knew i wasn't under. and i heard it was stated at the committee yet. at some committee tlaefl i wasn't. number one. >> so they didn't -- >> then during the phone call he said it and during another phone call he said it. he said it once at dinner and he said it twice during phone calls. >> did you call him? >> in one case i called him and in one case he called me. >> did you ask him if you're under investigation? >> i asked him. i said if it is possible to ask you, am i under investigation? he said you're not under investigation. >> tonight, comey's side. the headline in a private dinner trump demanded loyalty. comey demured. more on that in a moment. there's something else here. sara huckaby sandleders filling in for sean spicer has gone to great lengths to say james comey had lost the support of the people within the fbi. >> most importantly, the rank and file of the fbi had lost confidence in their director. i think it really came down, the bottom line was he'd lost the respect, not only of the rank and file within the fbi, democrats and plujs alike. i've heard from countless members of the fbi that are grateful and thankful for the president's decision. >> the problem with that is the new interim director of the fbi, a 21 year veteran appeared before congress and was asked about the rank and file at the fbi. >> is it accurate that the rank and file no longer supported director comey? >> no, sir. that is not accurate. i can tell you also that director comey enjoyed broad support within the fbi and still does to this day. i can confidently tell you that the majority, the vast majority of fbi employees enjoyed a deep and positive connection to director comey. >> let's bring in tonight's panel, shall we? white house bureau chief for the washington post, a man whose name has been on some extraordinary bylines, and the newest on air host at this network who picked quite a week to debut her new broadcast deadline white house 4:00 p.m. eastern time week day. and reporter for the wall street journal. film, you get to go first because you were the one -- talk about it a bit -- who picked up on this linkage between russia investigation and comey in the president's answer. >> yeah, that was a really remarkable admission from the president in his interview with lester holt that's actually going to be leading the washington post newspaper tomorrow morning. russia and his decision to fire comey, he said he kept thinking about the russia, trump-russia story. he didn't necessarily explain that it was a probe but to him it was a clear link average in his mind. he was thinking about russia when he made the decision about comey. >> what happened today? what did we just witness? >> we were talking before coming out here. i worked for a president who had plenty of tough days and plenty of legitimate critics but i was never undermined by my boss. when i went out and said something about something, i checked with my boss. that was through a terrorist attack, two washes, a hurricane response that brought a lot of critics from all over the place. i can't imagine functioning in this environment andst problem that -- the problem that we have, heaven that covers this white house, there are no credible spokes people. i don't know who you call anymore. sean spicer has been undermined. day one he was undermined. he was sent out with a picture and told to lie about words to describe it. i have a five-year-old who knows the difference between more and less. sara was insisting, so was kellyanne that this memo was the reason he fired comey. he went out there with lester holt and said i'm giving my own story, never mind that it undermines everybody from my vice president to my press secretary. >> there is a political piece tonight just before we tame out here that says president trump spent many of the first 48 hours after he fired his fbi director grumbling to friends and associates about his lousy media coverage and about the shortcomings of his senior aides. then after he went on television to give his own contradictory version of events, he made it worse. this reads tonight like the press shop leaking about their -- kountder leaking about their boss. how do you squash these answers? how do you square what you see from the podium to what you now know to be true? >> generally what you see them saying on the record from the podium is probably the least likely to be true. that headline, tried to fix something, made it worse, is more or less the story of the first 112 days of this administration. he sits in the office, lights the room on fire and gets angry that the fire department is not the there yet. he startsed this. it was in the letter that he sent to comey saying in the second paragraph, by the way, thanks for gone racon ratine en three separate occasions. they spent two days trotting out surrogates and staffers trying to give him an alibi. they alienate the deputy attorney general, the vice president who's trying to carry this narrative and then it comes back to, oh, well, i fired him all along when i was thinking about russia, which was obvious but -- >> and you remember -- >> to prevare kalts. >> we weren't running upstai at quarter to 6:00 tuesday when the news broke and the whole conversation in the aftermath was about the fact that the president had fired the man investigating his campaign's ties to russia and how tone deaf can you be and how could a staff have let him do that. well, now we know. you look at these stories. they're critiquing his organization's ability to manage a crisis. he's a crisis creator, so wait until the country deals with a real crisis not of the president's creation. that's where this goes from being sort of entertaining to bewildering. >> this is a crisis in its own way. the world is watching. >> but they are all of his own making. >> this is diminishing in eyes around the world, our democracy. >> does it sund fam to you that a president would be angry with his press shop, take it upon himself to book a sit-down interview with a major network, answer off the cuff, and change the entire narrative that the structure of the presidency had been set up to answer? >> well, you know what? this is donald trump's presidency and it's grump's white house, and some of what eli and cole have been saying is exactly right. he created these problems and didn't bring in enough of his senior staff early enough to seek their advice and counsel to help manage this at the fronts end. the other problem is among the senior staff there's noebel who can really say no to him. we hear about his son-in-law and daughter being these moderating dplienss on him. my reporting shows that they knew about what was about to happen with comey and didn't do anything about it. >> so surprise, nobody wanted a piece of this. phil did it dawn on you as it did us watching this interview today, it's all defense, no offense? at the 100-day mark to not be out talking about shovel ready initiatives around the country, putting americans back to work, tax plan, infrastructure, you name it -- >> yeah. >> -- no sell job, no offense? >> no and it's a real setback for him where he wanted to seize on the success of last week. he wanted to move the tax plan forward. remember, they put out the blueprint for the tax plan and that's gone nowhere. another important thing, he's actually headed overseas next week. he's got a major trip to four different countries. a lot at stake. he had cleared his schedule for this week to prepare and do briefings and get ready for that trip. obviously he's spending a lot of time this week fuming over the comey kriesz is. >> republicans on the hill suspended animation. >> republicans on the hill have been pathetic in sponges to comey. the republican party uchd to stand strong against trump -- i'm sorry -- against putin's actions in the neighborhood. >> i remember that. >> remember those day? you're too young. it's really, i think, a sad day. i think i counted four republicans who questioned not the action -- in fairness to trump, he has the right -- >> not running against. >> he has the right to fire his fbi director. but the timing is what's so suspicious. i think everybody sort of is aware of the fact that the investigations on every front are heating up, on the flynn front, the senate intel community. jeff blake, john mccain, burr, and -- those are a handful, literally, of republicans expressing concern with the timing. but i think it's really a dire moment where the republicans sorts of fall into line behind a president that, at best, is creating cries that his staffer can't keep up to clean up. >> i mentioned that we're starting to see the comey part of the story emerge. this is new york times tonight. this is about the dinner. as they it's, the president and mr. comey made small talk about the election and the crowd sizes at mr. trump's rallies. president then turned the conversation to whether mr. comey would pledge his loyalty to him. mr. comey declined to make that pledge. by mr. comey's accounts, his answer to mr. trump's initial question apparently didn't satisfy the president. mr. trump pressed himtd on whether it would be honest loyalty. you will have that, mr. comey told his associates, he sponltded. incredible. >> this is donald trump talking about loyalty test as mtd even from the politically independent fbi director. maybe he doejt know. maybe there's something nefarious, maybe it's both. but when you step back, what it reads to me is this is something that the former fbi director probably told staffers about and said when i get fired, leak this. but the white house in the story says they dispute the narrative. if the white house had any credibility, that assertion might kill a story like that. in this case, it doesn't. when we hear the white house pushing back on things, the communications department saying that's completely not true. >> it doesn't mean anything anymore. >> you don't really believe it. >> phil, did i read correctly, 30 sources, if last big byline piece in the washington post, 33 and a zero? >> it was actually mor than 30 but we rounded it up. that was yesterday's story. >> phil you've probably missed two or three stories newjust in the time you've spent in conversation with us. best of luck in the -- >> i appreciate its. >> ok. nicole wallace, eli stoke lgs obviously here with us in the studio. coming up, the president himself exposes his own communications team and his own vp who now have been caught telling a false version of events. we'll talk about it when "did 11th hour" continues. 80 percent of recurrent ischemic strokes could be prevented with the right steps. and take it from me, every step counts. a bayer aspirin regimen is one of those steps in helping prevent another stroke. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. i feel it every day. but at night, it's the last thing on my mind. for 10 years my tempur-pedic has adapted to my weight and shape, relieving pressure points from head to toe. so i sleep deeply but feel light. and wake up ready to perform. even with the weight of history on my shoulders. find your exclusive retailr at tempur-pedic.com what's going on? 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[ laughing ] xfinity x1 gives you exclusive access to the best of the billboard music awards just by using your voice. the billboard music awards. sunday, may 21st eight seven central only on abc. . welcome back. we mentioned earlier the differing messages coming from the acting director of the fbi and the white house on what rank and file employees in the fbi, 36,000 people work for the fbi, thought about former director james comey. deputy press second sara huckaby sanders was pressed about the inconsistency in the briefing room today. >> i certainly heard from a large number of individuals and that's just myself and i don't even know that many people in the fbi. >> you said now and i think you said yesterday that you personally have talked to countless fbi officials, employees, since this happened. >> correct. >> i mean, really? like -- >> i mean -- >> are there so many -- >> between e-mail, text messages, absolutely. >> 60, 70? >> look, we're not getting into a numbers game. i have heard from a large number of individuals thatwork at the fbi that said that they're very happy with the president's decision. >> what do we define as countless. the new york times reporter you saw asking the questions, michael sheer is with us tonight. we're awfully happy to have him. nicole wallace has been asked to stay behinds so she can represent the other side there of the communications shop. michael, how -- what has this done where the challenges of your job are concerned? like compared to a good day in maybe another administration? >> well, look, i mean, let's not paint the previous administration's completely, you know, innocent here. >> rights. >> we had our fights -- i mean, i covered all eight years of obama and i had many, many fights in that room back and forth with various press secretaries. nicole certainly knows what it's like to be on the other side in that room. it can get tense. there's a back and forth that always happens. i think the thing that's so striking and it goes to what you guys were talking about earlier today -- is that there is some basic level of trust that you have to have as a reporter and spokesperson. i think my kind of reaction to sara today was the culmination of a couple of days of frustration where we saw the stories just changing. and we all were sitting in that briefing room really understanding in our core that what they were telling us about the reasons for why the president fired jim comey didn't make any sense. they didn't make any sense for them from their perspective. so when you get down to what is at the end of the day a kind of little fact about did sara talk to countless numbers of fbi agents or not? it just seems like a ridiculous thing and a ridiculous thing to say. and it just felt like it needed to be challenged. >> and nicole, tonight, still i saw trump surrogates on the air talking about how mean comey had been to hillary clinton on the subject of e-mails. like they need to update their memos. >> i used to talk elizabeth miller, peter baker, white house corresponds covering bush. the fights we used to have were about -- i think what michael was trying to do was challenge the veracity of her assertion that she'd heard from countless fbi agents. i don't know how she'd know countless fbi agents. i know a little more than a dozen and i reached out to all of them and every one of them was and is loyal to jim comey. so is sort of odd that she found countless that we thrilled that he'd been fired. i only know a little more than a dozen. when you lose the ability to speak with credibility from behind the podium, you're supposed to leave the podium. and i don't know how they're expected to do their job when one, they don't check with the president on the way to the briefing room, two, the president undermines and throws them under the bus as does this politico story we talked about. everyone's willing to throw the press up under the bus. they're brought in an hour before a major announcement. and again, i'm not speaking from some place on high. we have plenty of critics in the press and out. i was never sent out to lie. if i had, i would have quit. >> yeah. michael, i was going to say i covered the clinton years with mike mccurry at that podium. sitting in the front row, at least you got the feeling that he was not cents in that room to lie and was not trying to bat questions away but was doing level best to pay forward good information. about the personalities, and it ask this because it's jermaine, we're talking about sara huck by sanders who's had two days in the slot because sean spicer is doing service. she's back tomorrow and i can't believe i'm saying this. melissa mccarthy is host on saturday night live this weekend. but it's jermaine. >> i think that's partly the times we're living in. media people become personalities in a way they haven't been in past administrations, so i think in some ways that's just destined to happen. clearly, one of the things that characterized the beginning of this administration, the first few months was these outsighed overdone, sense of chaos, the sense of the intensity that turned sean spicer, let's face it, from a guy we all knew as sort of a run of the mill washington republican communicator into a kind of household name that is mocked -- who is mocked on saturday night live. that's something that doesn't usually happen. i can't imagine nicole felt like she had become that necessarily, very quickly, at least. so -- >> i feel like -- yeah, your point is taken. >> i think just to make one last point here. i think that i have a little bit of sympathy for sean and sara and everybody else in that administration who isn't donald trump. at the end of the day donald trump is driving this train. he's the guy, remember that remarkable press conference in the east room earlier in the year where he just sort of decided that he wasn't getting good enough press and had this 77-minute press conference that none of his aides had planned for even a couple hours before. he's the only one who thinks he can get decent press, so he's never satisfied with anything anybody else can say for him and that's got to be frustrating. >> what has been a great period, michael sheer is one of the great bylines to look for on a daily basis. >> thank you. >> nicole wallace, we'lling look at you for p.m. tomorrow from this very studio. >> sit in that chair for a few days. >> i know, i know. >> thank you. >> coming up, calls for a special prosecutor and questions tonight as to whether president trump may have actually obstructed justice. i'll speak with a former u.s. attorney when we return. you! imagine if the things you bought every day earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you'll get a free checked bag, 2 united club passes... priority boarding... and 50,000 bonus miles. everything you need for an unforgettable vacation. the united mileageplus explorer card. imagine where it will take you. find fast relief behind the counter allergies with nasal congestion? 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(laughing) left foot. right foot. left foot. stop. twitch your eyes so they think you're crazy. if you walk the walk you talk the talk. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance you switch to geico. hide the eyes. it's what you do. show 'em real slow. . it's clear to me now more than ever that an independent special counsel must be appointed. >> there is no question that an independent special prosecutor must be appointed. >> we need to have a special prosecuto prosecutor. >> i call upon republicans of conscious to stand up and join the call for a special prosecutor. >> a special prosecutor should now be appointed to conduct the investigation into the trump campaign's ties to russia. >> more on the mixture of terminology we just heard there in a moment. democrats argue the president's firing of james comey is just the latest reason why, as you may have heard, we need a special prosecutor to look into russian interference in the election and then some. i want to bring into the conversation tonight a former u.s. attorney for the district of the state of new jersey, paul fishman. he was in that lowell until president trump asked for the rez ig nations of 46 u.s. attorneys back in march. counsel oar, thank you very much for coming in. let's start with this. we saw a mixture of three -- >> four ter. >> people ask me the difference between special counsel, special prosecutor, independent counsel and int pent special counsel. how do we delineate these? >> i think it's maybe because we've had all those different flavors over the last 30 or 40 years, brian. what people tend to think of independent counsels, they tend to think of the statue that was in effect for 20 years or so in the 1980s and 1990s which led to kent star investigating whites water. that was a statue passed by congress that provided that the attorney general or the acting attorney general went to a three judge court and asked for a special counsel. >> just a good lawyer that they knew of? >> a lawyer they knew of. ken starr, flrp a whole bunch of them during the reagan and bush administration and the clinton administration. that statue expired in 1999. lt at the end of the day there were a lot of people dissatisfied with the way the statue operated. congress never reenact another stauchlt instead, the justice department itself promulgated regulations that provide that the attorney general or if the attorney general is recused as he is in this particular instan instance. >> right. >> -- the deputy attorney general can himself appoint a special counsel, as it's called in the regulations. under that rubric, the deputy attorney general himself in this case would pick a special counsel from outside the government, somebody who the regulations prescribe has to be someone of great integrity and experience and the like. in this case deputy attorney general rosenstein would give the jurisdictional statement to that person and say here's what i'm asking you to investigate. these people or these things. and that's how it would work. >> they'd have subpoena power and all those broad powers? >> that person would have all the power that the united states attorney or any other senior justice official would have to conduct those investigations. the there's a third one that's not actually written in the regulations. it's the one ironically that jim comey himself used when he was the deputy attorney general to appoint pat fitzgerald to investigate the scooter libby events in 2003. >> the chicago lawyer, right? >> he was the u.s. toernl in chicago. rather than being somebody from outside the government comey -- and he and jim comey had been assistance u.s. attorneys together in the southern district of new york earlier. they were friends. he trusted pat fitzgerald. he brought him in not under the regs as a special counsel but called him a special counsel and gave him all the authority the attorney general himself would have had. which is broader than the regulation. >> i'm going to ask a lawyer for an explanation in 30 seconds. what's the triggering mechanism? does it have to come out of justice? can the u.s. senate decide on a person? >> i don't think that they can. i think the only provision is that the department of justice itself conveys the authority. le. >> paul fishman former u.s. attorney in new jersey. thank you very much. you've helped to clarify this. we may call upon you again to do the same thing. thanks for coming by tonight. coming up after this break, can anyone speak for president trump except for president trump. the 11th hour continues after this. this is the new new york. we are building new airports all across the state. new roads and bridges. new mass transit. new business friendly environment. new lower taxes. and new university partnerships to grow the businesses of tomorrow today. learn more at esd.ny.gov working on my feet all day gave me pain here. in my knees. so i stepped on this machine and got my number, which matched my dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic inserts. so i get immediate relief from my foot pain. my knee pain. find a machine at drscholls.com. when i feel controlled by frequent, unpredictable abdominal pain or discomfort and diarrhea. i tried lifestyle changes and over-the-counter treatments, but my symptoms keep coming back. it turns out i have irritable bowel syndrome with diarrhea, or ibs-d. a condition that's really frustrating. that's why i talked to my doctor about viberzi... ...a different way to treat ibs-d. viberzi is a prescription medication you take every day that helps proactively manage both abdominal pain and diarrhea at the same time. so i can stay ahead of my symptoms. viberzi can cause new or worsening abdominal pain. do not take viberzi if you have no gallbladder, have pancreas or severe liver problems, problems with alcohol abuse, long-lasting or severe constipation, or a bowel or gallbladder blockage. pancreatitis may occur and can lead to hospitalization and death. if you are taking viberzi, you should not take medicines that cause constipation. the most common side effects of viberzi include constipation, nausea, and abdominal pain. stay ahead of ibs-d with viberzi. is to always keep track of your employees.r micromanage them. make sure they're producing. woo! employee of the month! you really shouldn't leave their side. vita coco coconut water, hydration comes naturally. . i think we were absolutely given the information that we could have at that time. it was a quick moving process. >> and would you say that that information was accurate then or is nor accurate now? >> i would say that after having a conversation with the president, you don't get much more accurate than that. >> welcome back to the 11th hour. the question of whether the white house press corps and the american people can trust the word of the press secretary came up today. here is more of that exchange between sara sanders and major garrett. >> should reporters and the country essentially wait for a pronouncement from the president before believing that which is stated on his behalf by the white house communications staff? >> look, major, i'm not going to get into back-and-forth that we have to have like a direct quote every single time. you guys want to get lost in the process -- >> i don't think a question and giving an answer is lost in the process, sara, with all respect. >> and i'm answering those questions. it's very simple. the president decided to fire director comey. nobody else gets to make that decision, and he made it. he stangds by it. as do the rest of it. >> lisa bring in our guest former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs, rick stengel, who also happens to be former managing editor of time magazine. and our friend historian presidential biographer and author, john meech ham comes back on the broadcast with us. john, i'll ginl with you. major garrett is a good guy and a solid journalist and was not being facetious when he said do we have to wait for the president's pro noumt. you and i have talked before about this president who lacks a baseline of history in the presidency that politicians with their eyes on this prize all their eyes on have. it's nobody's fault he came from a different world. is that also -- does that translate into not knowing that there are certain riles, moreas and laws that sometimes govern your comments? >> well, president trump is like all of us, to some extent, a prison of his own experience. this is a man who has been reported actually prethe ended to be his own spokesman in the tabloid years. >> john miller. >> john miller and john bare ron. so i think when the history of the trump administration is written, there are going to be a couple of really important historical figures who are anti-seedents here. one is joe kohn who tutored trump in the art of changing the story, going for the headline, fighting wars in the tabloids. the other is rupert murdock who helped create that culture in the modern era in new york, and up think that essentially, what we're seeing -- and rick has been in this position when he's serveging the country -- there is this -- to use an old watergate phrase, there is this enormous credibility gap. one parenthetical prumplt has explained why he did it but will that be the explanation tomorrow? >> right. and rick, the reason it's important to believe that podium and the person standing behind it is tomorrow's briefing, god forbid, may be about a u.s. military action we have taken overnight overseas. and we may have to detail the satellite evidence that led us to make that decision. its has to be believable just as every word from that podium has to be believable. >> yes, but i would say that with all due respect to major garrett, the question is a little bit disingenuous in the sense that nobody has the reality the way the president himself has the reality, whether he re-arranges it or not. every time you're up at that podium you're trying to translate something that you know that's imperfect in a way that at least is plausible and truthful to the people sitting there. i mean,ity think somebody mentioned mike mccurry earlier. >> that was me. >> who -- yes. who i think set the standard for best press secretary. he had the phrase what's your job. my job is to tell the truth, slowly. >> that's right. he was adept at that. >> some of that is because you know things that you can't say, how can you say things that you know that are truthful with -- and be able to protect your boss, the president, and be able to protect the american people and that's something when you're in government all the time, things that you just can't talk about. but you can't be untruthful, either. >> john meacham, you have spent time with this president. in the life of presidents, the great thing about being historian is most of the modern era presidents have had p historians in because they're into your line of work and the books you've written and they've read them and want to discuss them. without sharing what you can shair about private sometime you've spent with this president, what tratsz have you reflected back on watching him these past just few days? >> i declare i haven't spoken directly with president trump i think since june or july of last year, so that should be clear. but i think what we see here is he is self-aware in this sense. when i ask him in that series of questions for rick's alma mater for time last summer, it was about were there a -- kwr there analogous figures in his mind, were there case studies in his mind about different presidents as he prepared for the presidency and we ended up talking about babe ruth and lydia ko, the great asian american golfer. babe ruth had been asked according to trump, hey, babe, how do you hit the long ball? and ruth said i don't know. i just swing at it. and trump said i just swing at it. and lydia ko was asked how do you hit your shots and she said i don't know. i just hit the ball. thaerls no lucy and the football here. he is a gut player. it's instiktdive, and he is totally convinced that he can bully his way through almost any situation, and why wouldn't you believe that if you had his life experience and you were the president of the united states. >> only man who can quote lydia ko and charles schultz in the same paragraph. >> by the way, you leave out the fact -- despite john's long resume -- that he was editor of news week. >> i don't want to get into these petty competition between you guys. >> our competition is over. >> give me 30 seconds on a great period for journalism even if the paper form may not be what it used to be. >> i think it is a great period of journal. now. there's a great topic to cover, but i think journalists also feel like they have a real mission now. there's a great challenge. the fact you've been talking all night about you have a president who prevaricates by his very nature, that's a challenge to everybody in the fifth estate and people are rising to that challenge and i'm proud of them and rooting them on. >> a starter reading list for book buyers watching tonight. by meacham's biography of george hw bush, stengel's by og fi of nelson mandella. gentlemen, thank you both very much for coming on tonight. coming up behind the scenes at the white house, what it's like when the president has guests over for dinner, a first-hand account. speaking of journalism, when the 11th hour continues. ♪ before you invest in a car, remember, it's not just the car you're investing in. subaru. kelley blue book's most trusted brand and, now, lowest 5-year cost to own. think about what you value most. subaru. people spend less time lying awake with aches and pains with advil pm than with tylenol pm. advil pm combines the number one pain reliever with the number one sleep aid. gentle, non-habit forming advil pm. for a healing night's sleep. but with my back pain i couldn't sleep or get up in time. then i found aleve pm. the only one to combine a sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. and now. i'm back! aleve pm for a better am. i count on my dell small for tech advice. with one phone call, i get products that suit my needs and i get back to business. ♪ ♪ . welcome back. the night before firing fbi director comey, president trump invited time magazine for dinner at the white house. it was a charm offense to be sure, as the president touted his achievements. showed off of tivo and said at one point, watch them start to choke like dogs. they are desperate for breath. it's all part of a fascinating cover story. came out just today in time magazine titled "donald trump after hours." i'm joined by the co-author zeke miller white house correspondent for time. let's talk about the division aspect. it comes roaring through your journalism, a piece i could not stop reading today. in almost a kuczynski-chauncey-gardner way, writ large and updated, it truly is how he takes in the world. and his tivo remote is his passport to the world. >> yeah. that's certainly true as he was pulling up that hearing on monday that clapper-sally yates hearing. he had it child in for us to come in and he was going to hit play. he had to go h go scrolling through the archives. we were able to see bits of tivo clips from several weeks back of cable news shows that he had been watching and saving for other such opportunities. and it was almost like watching your favorite football team on sunday. otherwise because he's living the life of bachelor with his wife and son here in new york while he pursues his skoomg, this president's kind of banging around in that big old house every night, is he not? >> yeah. every president sort of adapts to the building somewhat differently with the first lady and bare ron trump in new york, the president is essentially all alone in that 20,000 square foot mansion all alone most nights. the reason we wanted to tell this story was he doesn't sleep very much at night. he spends 10, 11 hours a day in the west wing. what does he do with the rest of his time? we wanted to tell that side of the story. he hosts these dinners just about every night, in this case for reportsers, but ceos, political supporters, cabinet secretaries, white house staffers, some combination therein. he'll give them a tour of the residence level, show them the lincoln bedroom, show them other parts of the the white house, engage them in discussion and retire upstairs to make phone calls. it is sort of an odd experience right now where did -- in our immediate past experience president barack obama had that sort of >> did he seem happy to share all this with you? >> he seemed very happy. he is the ultimate host in a lot of ways. the vice president who is also at dinner wednesday, one of the things that he most admires about the president is his sense of hospitality. this is not obviously done in a vacuum. this is the president trying to get his message across, trying to essentially butter up a bunch of reporters to get a story that serves his message. but also, in a lot of ways this is analogous to his career as a condo developer. he is trying to build up an artifice, put on a great show, put on the best for sure for the thing he is selling, in this case it's his presidency. and one of the things that came through and was striking for us i know on monday night was his sense that he wasn't able to connect with the voters. he kept going back to all i want to do is cut taxes, get health care reform done, and then they'll like me. except they don't like me and therefore i have to fight. it was very odd that kept copping through throughout the interview. >> hope he doesn't think about building condos out on the backyard. zeke miller, thank you so much. and what a great account you have written in the issue of "time" magazine that just came out today. thank you so much for being with us. coming up after our final break, new reporting during this broadcast on that comey-trump dinner. we're back with that right after this. allergy symptoms distracting you? 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ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. from the website of nbc news, i've just been handed some great reporting by ken delaney and pete williams. it's a narrative of the trump-comey din they're the president kind of indicated might have been requested by comey who wanted to stay on in the job beside being four years into a ten-year term. here is the first quote. the january dinner meeting between the two men the sources said was requested by the white house. and the former senior fbi official said comey would never have told the president he was not under investigation. that contradicts what the president said. quote, he tried to stay away from it, the russian ties investigation, says this former official of comey, who worked closely with comey. keeps in touch with him. he would say, look, sir, i really can't get into it. and you don't want me to on the subject of russia. here is another quote. the president is not correct, this former official said. the white house called him, comey, out of the blue. comey didn't want to do the dinner. he didn't even want the rank and file at the fbi to know about it. but in the end, he, the president is still the commander in chief. he is your boss. how do you say no? another great piece of reporting that will now be part of tomorrow's news agenda. that does it for our broadcast here tonight. thank you for being here with us. good night from new york. buckle up. i guess that's the right thing to say. it's turning out to be a chaotic night in the news. the biggest developing story in the country tonight may be the biggest story yet of this presidency is the white house apparently abandoning all pretense when it comes to explaining the firing of fbi director james comey. as a country we have obviously never before had a presint
view of the united states of america. only 15% have an unfavorable view. that makes poland one of the countries that actually still has sfarly positive views of this country. on the other hand, fully 57% of the polls don't have confidence in donald trump to do the right thing on the world stage while just 23% do. they seem, mika, to be able to separate the country and the president. >> from the person. good morning, everyone. it's thursday, july 6th. welcome to "morning joe." with us today, we have senior political analyst mark halprin. his baby is very cute. the president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haas. >> what is he saying, willie? >> the beard is coming in. i think by labor day it will be there. >> no, that's probably enough, richard. >> for bbc world news america, katty kay and columnist for the washington joseph ignay joyce us, as well. so we may get an early incation of whether president trump will hold putin accountable accountable for meddling in the u.s. election. he quickly turned the tables against president obama and the media and america's own intelligence. >> well, i think it was russia and i think it could have been other people in other countries. it could have been a lot of people interfered. >> you've seen -- >> i said it very simply. i think it could very well have been russia, but i think it could well have been other countries and i won't be specific, but i think a lot of people interfere. i think it's been happening for many, many years. the thing i have to mention is that barack obama, when he was president found out about this in terms of if it were russia, found out about it in august. the election was in november. that's a lot of time. he did nothing about it. why did he do nothing about it? he was told it was russia by the cia, as i understand it. it was well reported. and he did nothing about it. they say he choked. well, i don't think he choked. i think what happened is he thought headquarter had headquarter was going to win the election and he said, let's not do anything about it. had he thought the other way, he would have done something about it. so he was told in either august by presumably the cia that russia was trying to get involved or meddling. pretty strongly with the election. he did nothing about it. the reason is, he thought hillary was going to win. and if he thought i was going to win, he would have done plenty about it. so that's the real question is why did he do nothing from august all the way to november 8th? why did he do nothing? his people said he choked. i don't think he choked. >> so the follow-up is for you on that, mr. president. your intelligence agencies have been far more definitive. they say it was russia. why won't you agree with them and say it was? >> let me start off by saying, i heard it was 17 agencies. i said boy, that's a lot. do we even have that many intelligence agencies? right? let's check it. and we did some very heavy research. it turned out to be three or four. it wasn't 17. and many of your come patriots had to change their reporting and they had to apologize and they had to correct. with that being said, mistakes have been made. i agree. i think it was russia and i think it was probably other people and/or countries and i see nothing wrong with that statement. nobody really knows. i remember when i was sitting back listening about iraq. weapons of mass destruction. how everybody was 100% sure that iraq had weapons of mass destruction. guess what? that led to one big mess. they were wrong and it led to a mess. so it was russia, but i think it was probably others, will say and that's been going on for a long period of time. my question is, why did obama do nouth about it from august all the way to november? if he did nothing about it and it wasn't because he choked. >> so, willie, if you're keeping score at home, this is remarkable. off united states president on foreign soil attacking the cia, attacking our intelligence communities, attacking america's free press on foreign soil, and attacking a foreign -- attacking former president of the united states. while seem to go try to jungle two ultimate realities, number one, maybe it was russia, maybe it was the fat dude in jersey, maybe it was other state players. so he says that first. then he goes to it was russia. and his words here, the cia pretty strongly warned barack obama that it was russia and did nothing. so when barack obama comes up, russia was the one that interfered in our elections and he had pretty strong evidence about it. >> well, there are two pieces of this. the first is the one you alluded on to which is the president of the united states ripping another president of the united states on foreign soil. >> and the cia and the american press. >> that's unseemly on its own. where he's wrong again, and how he followed up on this is he won't just come out and say that russia had something to do with it cleanly. he'll say yes, they may have had something to do with it, but it could have been china and someone else. that's what he's been saying going back to hillary clinton in october, october 7th at we all know at this point. the intelligence agencies came out. jay johnson said on this set a couple of weeks ago and reiterated the evidence and intelligence that he had. they came out and said, yes, russia interfered in our election. so the question, again, for president trump is why do you disagree with your intel agencies? do you know something or are you hiding something? what's the reason that you won't go along with this? >> he doesn't know anything that his intel agencies aren't telling him any more. he won't come out and admit -- i don't know what vladimir putin has over him, but what everybody else knows. he's still talking about, well, maybe russia, maybe another state, maybe the fat guy in jersey, he says other people. and at the same time, again, when barack obama's name comes up, he is certain russia interfered and he had strong evidence that russia interfered, but he did nothing. >> his whole answer is out of piece with what he said in the past, but it's more significant because he's about to meet with vladimir putin. and i think a lot of people were hoping that his answer would be more directed towards warning the russians because now, within that room, the people who are fearing that he will not be tough on putin for russia's interference in the election, i think, are going to be more worried that he's going to just bet and the fat guy in jersey better go on the lam. >> richard, there are obviously negative -- negative sievens already being sent out by donald trump. there were a few things in the national media to look at and say, well, maybe there is -- he is showing a bit of restraint with putin, one being, of course, that he talks about -- well, first of all, he's in poland, as we said before, but secondly talked about how the future of western civil zaipzation is at risk ask we have to stand up to it. he does talk about russian interference. how do you juggle all that? >> well, it's a juggle, even going to poland is a juggle because with on one hand, they are spendsing 2%. it is one of the more anti-russian policies. on the other hand, poland is one of the more liberal countries in europe. so it's a balancing -- it's no accident, shall we say, that he's in poland. in terms of russia more blod broadly, you've got three baskets, maybe four baskets on of concerns. you've got the election interference, you've got ukraine and the potential interruption to europe and the fact that russia is playing a larger role in north korea. they are begin to go compliment the chinese and providing something of a lifeline to north korea. so he's got an enormous agenda. this dancing around reluctant to pin the tail on the donkey, obviously, is not the best way to deelt with this meeting. you want to have putin on the defensive. i don't quite understand why he's giving him a sort of pass here. >> let's back up. just in terms of international optics, what comes to mind when you watch the few minutes there of the president speaking? >> you know, i think we have a snapshot, really, today of a world -- richard would like this, the world really is in disarray. .you have the north korean threat as trump arrives in europe. the europeans are clearly not going to stand shoulder to shoulder any more. angela merkel took the president's arrival in europe as a chance to have a big interview in the paper about how she doesn't see eye to eye with president trump and president trump is out on a limb in terms of his view at the moment and at the same time you've got president trump picking fights with the chinese and refusinging to reject russia's view of its interference in the u.s. election and russia's view of its role in the world at the moment. so you couldn't have a more destabilized world at a time when the united states seems to be in retreat from leadership and european countries and the chinese and the russians have all recognized that and are starting to jostle and form their own alliances. >> so you're good at this. what would have been a better way to answer the question, joe, that could have been perhaps more stabilizing, more cohesive, perhaps more polite, perhaps less embarrassing internationally? >> well, what you would want to do on is, and i think everybody would recognize this, acknowledge it. russia tried to interfere in our elections. >> and what about a unifyingco he's itch response to it? >> russia tried to interfere in our elections. we are meeting with vladimir putin tomorrow. we want to seek assurances that they will never do it again so we can put it behind us and begin worrying about things that are going to matter in 2017 and not 2016. syria, the threat from north korea, the other threats across the country -- across europe. >> so you didn't have to study up for that. that just -- but david ignacious, it's all personal with him. we tried to talk about it yet yesterday. even if you do not believe russia had an impact on the outcome of the 2016 election, but still tried to interfere with the election, donald trump simply cannot admit one because he thinks it undercuts his election. how about clearing this up for our viewers. donald trump says the intel communities did not all come out saying that russia tried to interfere in our elections. what can you tell us on thursday, july 6th, 2017 about what we know based on our integ communities and what russia did in the 20 16 elections? >> the director of national intelligence who represents the 17 different agencies issued a statement in october, very specifically blaming russia for this meddling in our election. he spoke for all the agencies he has. it is true that the specialized intelligence of that russia actions, planning, had been guard by only several of those agencies, but he was speaking as they say in a church ex cathedra. so i think that's sort of a silly technical point. watching trump's bland defensive performance in poland, you would not know that he is heading toward what i think will be the most fateful days of his presidency so far. we have a real life crisis now with north korea. and the the president's ability to respond to it creatively, firmly, wisely, is going to be crucial, literally, for war and peace in northwest asia. and you just have to hope that he is better prepared pore that meeting and the comments in poland would have indicated. he's going to need to work with russia so the idea of not closing the door to russia, what he should have said was there is a special contract investigating this matter. i'm going to leave the judgment about what happened to him. >> .pigs would be flying around warsaw. >> this is an odd time for the president to be raising questions internationally, standing on the soil of another country, about the track report .believability of the american intelligence community. yes, we got it wrong or they got it wrong in iraq, but we're about to have a conversation with the world where we are likely to be saying, we know about north korea. and this is going to be based on american intelligence. we're going to be trying to rally international support for whatever it is we do based on american intelligence findings. it's an odd time to basically be saying you can't believe the cia or the intelligence community about iraq. center i'm certain that his foreign policy team didn't preparing him that. >> as we said before, you're on foreign soil. >> riffing? >> i remember being very, very critical of former majority leader harry reed for attacking george w. bush when he was in russia, he called him stupid or an idiot or something like that. i forget exactly what the words were. for a sitting president to be on foreign soil, we can't really underline this enough and attack america's intel community on foreign soil and attack america's free press on foreign soil, long seen by others as a city chinaing brightly on the hill for all the world to see. for him to attack american institutions two days after the fourth of july on foreign soil the day before we meet america's chief advocacy is nothing short of disgusting. >> and mika is right, this is a riff. this is not in response to prepared remarks. as you said, you cannot let any slight go unpassed. he had to talk about russia kwab but remind the world that it was not he, but president trump who had a chand to do something about it. >> and when president trump had a chand to do something about it, suddenly it was russia and he knew it was russia and the cia gave him strong evidence that it was russia. center and there is a case to be made that president obama should have done more been but that's not a time to bring that up. >> kier, how are people there reacting to what the president said so far? >> i think he guys have it exactly right. president trump here in hamburg faces the most difficult diplomatic days vovr. you've been talking about when it comes to russia being fully prepared to say russia was responsibility for intervention in the u.s. elections. he was not prepared to talk about article five of nato. he talked about the security of europe, but the europeans will want him to be much more specific than that. then when it came to north korea, he said i was some pretty severe things that we are thinking about. so as president xi and president putin prepare foss those meetings, they won't know what president trump is going to say there. nor do we. at the same time, he took the opportunity to talk about or stumble into to direct attention, again, to his criticism of parts of the media after he tweeted that wrestling video in relation to krn. take a listen. >> since you started the whole wrestling video thing, what are your thoughts about what has happened since then? cnn has come back and -- >> i think what cnn did was unfortunate for them. as you know, they have some serious problems. they have had some fake news issues for a long time. they've been covering me in a dishonest way. do you have that, also, by the way, mr. president? what cnn and others, nbc is equally as bad, despite the fact that i made them a fortune with "the apprentice," but they forgot that. but i will say that krn has really taken it took seriously and i think they've had hurt themselves very badly, very, very badly. and what we want to see in the united states is honest, beautiful, free but honest press. we want to see fair press. i think it's a very important thing. we don't want fake news. and then we had an example of the effect that that fake news argument from president trump has around the world because immediately the polish president took the opportunity to criticize some parts of his own media for them being tough on him. so the fake news, that claim does not just stay within the borders of the united states domestically. governments around the world see it and react to it. >> all right. nbc's kier simmons with us in germ fee ahead of the g20 summit. thank you very much. center what about his comments on attacking american news media? secondly, let's talk about the meeting with vladimir putin lining up at the same time the crisis with north korea escalates. >> again, the media comments wefrg he said before, but the timing of it in a region of the world where the comments of press freedom is an important one. no other president in our lifetime probably would say such a thing. the north koreans love to being able to come mate the conversation, but this summit is important, but the meeting with putin is so important. .i think the president is going to go in there had confident that he can charm putin, dominate putin, get something for the u.s. out of the meeting. but he's going up against a guy with a lot more experience and a guy who i think probably has sized up the president really well. so the meeting is all about, you know, why do they have to meet face-to-face? that's what summits are about. but the president is going into something he has never dealt with before against a very experienced guy. >> is there any prep for these news conferences from his team? >> well, traditionally there would be a lot of prep and you would go through mock press koerchss. when i worked at the white house, you do that sort of thing. there seems to be much less of it here, shall we say. >> what does mcmasters or mattis or any of the folks in there thinking when they watch this? are they psyched? >> you can't be psyched. it shows what we do here is far -- we don't think with what we do domestically as foreign policy, but everything we do domestically is foreign policy because we used to say the whole world is watching. this is mana from heaven for the likes of the polish president, this is good for the ur derdogas of the world. the country that's most voeshted with democracy in the world delegitimizes the press and basically calls news, fakes news and the rest, it gives these guys license to essentially do what america does. and this is just wrong and this weakens the fabric of the society. >> crystalize what richard just said. the bottom line here is -- >> well, david ignacious, as we go to break really quickly, this not only emboldens our enemies and autocrats across the globe, but at the same time, it damages donald trump. it is what we call a 36, 37, 38% solution for donald trump. you can look at polls over the past week. he got savaged for attacks against people in the mead where a. it does not help his poll numbers. while he's providing comfort to our enemies, he's depressing his own base. >> joe, i think you put your finger on something important. donald trump, over the next two days, is heading into a major international crisis of how to deal with the north korea that is now genuinely threatening the united states and its neighbors. he is a very unpopular president at home, maybe uniquely so with our modern presidents. that's not a good position to be in at a moment where he needs to work creatively with partners and with adversaries, with china and russia, to solve this big, dangerous problem. we should all regret that he's so unpopular when he needs on speak for the whole country. >> very uneasy times. ahead of tomorrow's meeting between president trump and president putin, we'll bring in former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfall. also, the former director of the national counterterrorism center, mikat leiter. and the crowds are gathering in poland where the president is set to deliver a big speech. much more ahead. 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what are the reasons why the united states remains so popular? >> because from the countries that used to be in the warsaw pact in the soviet bloc, they saw the united states as the principal agent of their freedom, of essentially getting them out from under. and the many of them have moved in the direction of markets, they've become more democratic. the united states more than the europeans often many of whom are reluctant, the u.s. has been seen as their principal helper and their principal example. poland, however, began has gone a different direction. by .large, they're appreciative, but they genuinely admire who we are. so they like the united states, but when it comes to president trump, it's a little different. >> it is. >> the pugh survey shows that 57% of the polls do not have confidence that donald trump will do the right thing. so it's interesting, the pols are one of the countries that can separate their feelings for the pt and the country. interest the president does not inspire much confidence in europe. just 7% in spain are confident he will do the right thing. 10% in sweden. 11% of germans. 14% in france. 22% of the british and 25% in t italy. throughout the world, confidence in the president is weak. just 5% in mexico. >> wow. i never saw that coming with mexico. >> 11% in teshgky, 22% in canada, 17% in krouth korea swb 24% in japan and 29% in australia. the president does have some confident scores in the philippines, vietnam, nigeria, israel and a few other countries, including russia where 53% in the russian federation think he will do the right thing on the world stage. break it down for us. >> so pugh polled people in 37 countries and the average of people who think that donald trump will do the right thing for the world is only 22%. that compares to barack obama who had something like 64% confidence around the world when he left office. and it's partly politics and it's partly personality. it's things like pulling out of the tpp, withdrawing america from the paris climate accord, a sense of isolationism, people don't like those things. but it's also about the president's personality. so most people around the world, according to this poll, believe president trump is arrogant. they think he is even dangerous for world affairs. on the flip side of that, some people do have a positive view. they think that he is strong and even some had think that he is charismatic. but you're right, overall, the picture is not great for president trump. i think the big question is what does this do for america and for america's national security? because there will come a time where america needs its allies, it needs its intelligence to be believed. we may be on the threshold of that moment right now. and going to this g20 summit with the world so opposed to you, your policies, your sense of isolationism, it's going to be very hard for america to rebuild from this.the. >> staggering. >> and willie, our research assistance, richie haas -- he's so cute. >> he's going places. he just needs to learn how to shave. he passed over a note saying 17%, only 17% if in south korea have a positive view of the united states right now at an extraordinary -- >> of the united states or the president? >> to trust us to do the right thing. >> to do the right thing. if we can't stay on the same page with south korea as we try to deal with north korea, we will have an enormous diplomatic problem and daylight emerges between us and our allies. the. >> and the japanese numbers are only slightly higher and the president has had a good relationship with the zap niece prime minister. so those two numbers, i thought, tons of shocking numbers, those numbers stand out particularly in light of what's going on with north korea. >> so david, what's the practical impact of these numbers? you go do, you look at the list, many of them are reflective of what we hear, you've been our ally in the united states, we think you might have made a mistake in 2016 and we still believe in you. but some of those are even drifting. what does that mean to foreign policy in the united states? willie, i fear what it means for donald trump is it reinforces his feelings that at the end of the die wsh itday, it's america. our allies don't spend enough for defense, they don't support me and my policies. this is a time where an embattled u.s. president feeling isolated could easily make a miscalculation. so i hope in these meetings with allies, he will meet with the japanese prime minister. he will meet obviously with president xi and president putin, that the conversations will be such that they produce a joint action to deal with these problems. as our commanding general in south korea said, it's also that our president talk with other leaders. these figures, these numbers show you how difficult that will be. donald trump's instinct will be to say the i can't trust anybody, i'm going to do it myself. coming up, live to warsaw. >> the numbers are staggering. >> across the world. only one in five. >> he's hated. >> a special relationship with great britain, only one in five have confidence. >> how does that happen? how do you plummet so low? >> donald trump has actually laid out a wonderful playbook for anybody who wants to see their approval ratings drop to record lows. and lower, the image of america across the globe. and the numbers are all here and you can look at what he's done over the past six months examine there's your playbook. we're going to go live to warsaw where the president is set to address the polish people just over half an hour from now. but first, david ignacious says america's best path in syria may be working russia. we'll explain why in our must-read opinion pages. we, the people, are tired of being surprised with extra monthly fees. we want hd. and every box and dvr. all included. because we don't like surprises. yeah. like changing up the celebrity at the end to someone more handsome. and talented. really. and british. switch from cable to directv. get 4 rooms with hd, dvr, and every box included for $25 a month. and in this swe see.veryday act, when we give, we receive. ♪ wiback like it could used to? 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do they want to stay there indefinitely? would they like to make peace with the united states there and figure out a way to de-escalate? >>o, everything that i can see from conversations both in moscow and then my little holiday in syria last week tells me that the russians are nervous about getting caught, about getting stuck in a quagmire in syria and are more willing to talk to the u.s., work with the u.s., than they have been in the past. one thing that i heard from our commanders in syria is that over the last three weeks, the effort to work with the russians, to find a -- what they call a declon flikz line, a line below which we can operate, above which the russians won't move, that has been surprisingly successful. and our top diplomates brief this is something we can work with. and i think this is now a pathway. i think there is abdomen opportunity here to do something that will save syrian lives, reduce violence, and i don't think compromises any fundamental u.s. interests with russia. so i think that's the heart of what i expect that trump and putin will be talking about. >> i'm pretty sure if the president said to you, what should i leave putin with having best case snasho, what would they come out with in the world? >> that the russians would not work with the chinese in any way, that they would stop their destabilization in eastern ukraine, they would back off interference in american and western electiones and in syria, along the lines that david said, we would find ways not to solve the syrian problem, but there could be some local cease-fires, some areas where syrians could stay or return to abdomen appropriate where you create pockets or areas of stabilities. why would we great to this? >> the last one, i think david is right, they're not looking for massive investment. they've had a great return on investment. this has been a small market with remarkable investment. putin doesn't want to see body bags coming home. the last time that happened in syria's numbers was afghanistan. i think his goals in sear yeah are much more modest than, say, iran. i think it's tough ner afghanistan. tougher in north korea, obviously. and he has to decide how important cyber going to be and destabilization. he has to decide, essentially, whether he will been to be a real spoiler because he hasn't had great success recently in europe, whether he's going the reign that in or condition that and we have to decide how much of a price we are going to put on him if he does continue. we have to make it clear that if this continues -- i think we should be impressit about the implications of that. >> one of the things they were clear on last nice were the enforcement of no fly zones over syria. but wouldn't they be flying different missions? how do they get together on a no-fly zone when their interests are so different? >> interestingly, there's a lot more discussion that take place certainly than i realized. many times every day at the level of colonels, they talk to deconflict air space. less frequently at the level of one and two-star generals and occasionally at the level of three-star generals. our commander in baghdad talk bes the russian, the colonel general to figure out who goes where. so a lot of this discussion is going on and what people kept saying to me is it seems to be holding. i think the thing that we have to remember about vladimir putin is part of the chip on his shoulder is that he wants to be taken seriously, not just as a military power, but as a great power that can solve conflicts. so a joint diplomatic effort by the united states and russia to stabilize syria would be something that i think putin would welcome. it shows him in a different light. the danger is rewarding putin, letting putin come in out of the cold without demanding that he do certain additional things to stabilize ukraine, to get his part of the world out of the mess that it's been in. >> so the international back truck, catty kay, what is the view from abroad of the united states relationship with russia right now? >> europeans for a long time have felt china was a better bet as a partner. and you've seen a lot of activity during the course of this week between the german chancellor and president xi on china on things like climate change and russia was not such a good partner. they've been far cooler on russia for far longer than the united states has. there's a great op-ed today in "the washington post" by the former deputy director of the cia mike morrell who is positing how the russians think about this and it poses the question whether the united states can trust russia on anything. the question on over syria will be so you do a deal on syria, what else do you get in return and how much can you take russia or his word? it's sticky cooperation with the u.s. >> thank you very much. still ahead, long time ambassador michael mcfall dealt with russian leadership for years and he has some advice for president trump. what he says the president needs to read before tomorrow's meeting with vladimir putin. 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surprise anybody that's followed the president for some time, but there are several alternate realities in there. if donald trump is just talking about whether russia hacked or tried to interfere in our election or not, when he's just talking generally about it, he said it could be anybody, but when he brings up barack obama, he says barack obama was given specific evidence that it was russia, and president obama ignored it. >> he talked about america's own intelligence community. take a listen. >> well, i think it was russia, and i think it could have been other people in other countries. it could have been a lot of people interfered. i said it very simply. i think it could very well have been russia, but i think it well could have been other countries, and i won't be specific, but i think a lot of people interfere. i think it's been happening for a long time. it's been happening for many, many years. the thing i have to mention is that barack obama when he was president found out about this in terms of if it were russia, found out about it in august. now, the election was in november. that's a lot of time he did nothing about it. why did he do nothing about it? he was told it was russia by the cia as i understand it. it was well reported. and he did nothing about it. they say he choked. well, i don't think he choked. i think what happened is he thought hillary clinton was going to win the election, and he said let's not do anything about it. had he thought the other way, he would have done something about it. he was told in early august by presumably the cia that russia was trying to get involved or mettling pretty strongly with the election. he did nothing about it. the reason is he thought hillary was going to win. and if he thought i was going to win, he would have done plenty about it. that's the real question is why did he do nothing from august all the way to november 8th? why did he do nothing? his people said he choked. i don't think he choked. >> the followup for you, you again say you think it was russia. your intelligence agencies have been far more definitive. they say it was russia. why won't you agree with them and say it was? >> let me start off by saying i heard it was 17 agencies. i said that's a lot. do we have that many intelligence agencies? let's check it. we did some heavy rerng. it turned out to be three or four. it wasn't 17, and many of your compatriots had to change their reporting and apologize and correct. now, with that being said, mistakes have been made. i agree. i think it was russia, but i think it was probably other people and/or countries, and i see nothing wrong with that statement. nobody really knows. nobody really knows for sure. i remember when i was sitting back listening about iraq, weapons of mass destruction. how everybody was 100% sure that iraq had weapons of mass destruction. guess what. that led to one big mess. they were wrong. and it led to a mess. so it was russia, and i think it was probably others also, and that's been going on for a long period of time. but my big question is why did obama do nothing about it from august all the way to november? he did nothing about it. and it wasn't because he choked. >> elizabeth, it is hard to follow exactly the line of reasoning in there. he takes so many paths, different paths and goes down so many rabbit trails. one thing is obvious. he did three things in that answer. one, he attacked the united states' intelligence community. two, he attacked america's free press, and three, he continued his obsession on the 44th president of the united states, and he attacked him. all three of those attacks coming on foreign soil. it's remarkable. i remember conservatives losing their minds when a country band criticized george w. bush in a concert in england. what are your thoughts this morning listening to the president trashing american institutions while abroad? >> i think on one hand he is right that the obama administration was very slow to react to the reports of russian interference in the election. there's no doubt about that. however, you can also talk to people today and say the trump administration is not doing enough to prevent this from happening in 2018 and 2020 right now. the other thing that's happening here is that if you talk to anybody at the white house, this is one of the president's greatest fears is that any talk of russian influence in the 2016 election, and their evident desire to have donald trump elected completely delegitimizes his victory, and so you see him attacking obama and not focusing on the fact that it was russia and they were trying to get trump elected according to major intelligence agencies. i also thought it was interesting that the president said he didn't know there was 17 intelligence agencies which is interesting. so i think that is what is going on here. it is a -- it was a long answer, and it was attempt once again to deflect all the focus on the obama administration and not on the trump administration. and also, it is it's one of the most worrying things for the president. it doesn't leave him -- this stuff never leaves him. it also sets up a very risky meeting on friday with president putin. >> is this a sign, or should we at all be worried, david, that this is the sort of attitude tone approach he's taking as he goes into these meetings? it doesn't seem to be kind. i'll try and be charitable. it doesn't seem very well prepared. >> it is a puzzle why donald trump, every time this subject comes up, looks for in effect, excuses not to blame vladimir putin. that's been consistent now for many months. on this question of why barack obama waited so long to do something, i think obama does deserve criticism, but let's remember. at the time this scandal was breaking last summer and fall, donald trump was in effect saying bring it on. if the russians have got hack material, why don't they hack hillary clinton's e-mails and release those? and at the same time, a key republican members of congress in the most secret committees that we're being briefed about russian actions were very resistant to doing anything. were giving counsel to the white house. i think it's disingenuous -- >> why is that, david? mitch mcconnell knew about that. why was he counseling in the middle of the election for president obama to do nothing on this? >> joe, in the end, that's a puzzle, and robert mueller is going to have to sort that out. as near as we can tell there were democrats like adam schiff in this so-called gang of eight who were saying back in august and september a much stronger response is needed. and mcconnell was saying no, go slow, and i think he was afraid that a stronger response would have the effect of helping the democrats and putting the russian actions in a light that made it harder for trump, but those are guesses right now. the way trump presented this on foreign soil, i think had some very misleading elements. >> and he's now going to be meeting tomorrow with after attacking american journalists, he is now going to meet with the leader of russia who actually assassinates journalists who disagree with him? >> yeah. and there's no evidence at this point yet that he's going to confront vladimir putin about russian interference into the hacking. we don't know yet. if he thinks he's going to slap putin on the back and charm him the way he has people his whole life, he's in for a surprise. that's not how putin does business. in response to hallie jackson's question, the hemming and hawing, it may been other countries, nobody knows who exactly it was. he won't just say yes, russia interfered. you can say yes, there was russian interference but no, i had nothing to do with it. i mean, that's a good place to be if you're the president. >> yeah. i think what we know about donald trump is psychologically, i'm not sure he can do that. i think this is a president, and we've never had a president like this before. he understands politics. entirely through what's presented on cable news. he absorbed the messages from cable news, and he responds to them and believes that sort of is the definition of his presidency, whether it's succeeding or failing. i think when he watches cable news, he sees one critic after bring up russia and collusion, he sees with anger and i think when the question is raised, he takes it as any acknowledgment that russia tried to do anything in the united states election is akin to telling people my election wasn't legitimate. i think the split, given his understanding of politics, i don't know that he's capable of that. the other thing i would say, with a name like mine, i have to mention poland. you were mentioning on the show earlier there's a split between polish opinion where they revere americans and they're concerned about trump. and the concern about trump has to do with vladimir putin and russia. you're talking about a people who lived under soviet domination for generations. talk to my grandmother growing up, uncles, aunts and my family and about society union and russia, the memories, it's seared into their consciousness. to have an american president that might be close to put season their number one concern. the numbers are pretty staggering, and you've got to think that this trip is going to generate so such coverage all over the world. richard, i'm curious why you think people are keying off of in all these countries to think that about president trump? is it about president trump or his style? what would cause public opinion all over the world to have doubts about the president? >> the answer is yes, and this is not what they think of america when they see donald trump and have a vision of american culture, this is not what they expect. i've had many leaders say that, and then there's asia they're concerned about the united states unilaterally leaving the transpacific partnership. concern about leaving the paris climate change agreement. raising questions about alliances in europe. the softness toward repeated softness toward putin and russia. it's a combination of discreet policy differences. essentially the united states, which was the principle foundation of the global order, now pulling back from it. we have repeal but not replace. this is simply -- and they feel vulnerable and uncertain. they made a choice to depend on us and look at a range of behavior from the campaign through the transition to now, and they want to respect america. they might disagree with us, but they want to respect us, and at time they're finding it impossible to respect us and identify with us in cht. >> it's interesting. the part of the speech he's about to give that have been released suggests he's going to reassert that americans are going to lead the world. >> president trump also spoke this morning about this week's intercontinental ballistic missile test by north korea. >> not only must we secure our nations from the threat of terrorism, but we must also confront the threat from north korea. and that's what it is. it's a threat. and we will confront it very strongly. president duda and i call on all nations to confront this global threat and publicly demonstrate to north korea that there are consequences for their very, very bad behavior. as far as north korea is concerned, i don't know, we'll see what happens. i don't like to talk about what i have planned, but i have some pretty severe things that we're thinking about. that doesn't mean we're going to do them. i don't draw red lines. president obama drew a red line, and i was the one that made it look a little bit better than it was, but that could have been done a lot sooner and you wouldn't have had the same situation that you have right now in syria. that was a big mistake. but i think we'll just take a look at what happens over the coming weeks and months writh respect to north korea. it's a same that they're behaving this way, but they are behaving in a very, very dangerous manner, and something will have to be done about it. >> it seems like everything always goes back to barack obama. >> he's obsessed. >> he talks about barack obama traveling all over the world. >> barack obama was a popular president. people really liked him around the world and in america. >> he doesn't have to travel around the world. he could live rent free in donald trump's brain. he's so in his head in everything that he does. we've seen it in the press conference this morning. >> elizabeth, the president was trying to talk about north korea, and an international crisis that coincidentally barack obama told him during the transition, you can worry about obama care if you want to, but north korea is going to keep you awake at night. how does any american president deal effectively with a crisis like this when only 17% of the country according to this latest pew poll actually trusts his actions? >> well, that's -- that is an issue that he's going to face. right now there's no -- obviously no american president has found a good answer to north korea. i've been in washington a long time and of the last three or four american presidents, have all wrestled with this. they have continued at a pace to develop their nuclear program. you saw he was, again, as you mentioned, he was laying a lot of blame at barack obama's doorstep, and he also said i'm considering very serious things, but he didn't say he was going to do them. there's not a whole lot he can do militarily. there was talk of sanctions. promised more sanctions, and then he has to lean on president xi of china and try to get china to pressure north korea. as you know, that's not gone well at all, and president trump expressed disappointment in china for not stepping up and doing the right thing in his view. but i do think it was interesting how much he blamed obama for this once again. >> once again, north korea blaming the president. president obama also for russian hacking and nothing being done. right now, we are seeing the trumps and the dudas coming out. richard, i want to just follow up briefly with what elizabeth said. we all remember 1994. president clinton sent former president carter over to north korea. they thought they achieved the deal. the north koreans actually broke that deal. the bush administration discovered that, called north korea's bluff out of them. but the bush administration wasn't able to do anything to stop this march forward toward an advancement of their nuclear program and the obama administration as elizabeth said, like the previous administrations also couldn't come up with a suitable answer. so what does the trump administration do? >> you only have three options. you're right. this has drifted for two and a half decades. people keep hoping the options get better. they never do. we only have three options. one is to live with it with a combination of deterrence and defense. that means having confidence in their rationality. the second option is to attack. that's where the south korean numbers get significant. south korea would bear the brunt of retaliation so america does not have complete freedom of action there. and the third option is diplomacy. i think there are ways we could structure it that wouldn't solve the problem, but it would cap it. i think that's an option. >> you just saw the president and melania trump laying a wreath. this is at the warsaw uprising memorial in warsaw, poland. at the time they are right now, of course, commemorating that moment, but there will be comments not just by the president himself but melania trump will introduce the president which should be interesting. again, you're watching the president and the first lady at a commemorative services remembering the warsaw uprising, 1944. estimated about 16,000 members of the polish resistance were killed and about 6,000 wounded during the uprising. now here is melania trump introducing her husband. >> hello, poland. thank you very much. my husband and i have enjoyed visiting your beautiful country. i want to thank president and mrs. duda for their warm welcome. and their generous hospitality. i had opportunity to visit a center that i found informative and thoughtful in it mission to inspire people to observe and experiment, ask questions, and seek answers. i can think of no better purpose for such a wonderful science center. thank you to all who were involved in giving us the tour, especially the children who made it such a wonderful experience. as many of you know, a main focus of my husband's presidency is safety and security of the american people. i think as all of us can agree, people should be able to live their lives without fear no matter what country they live in. that is my wish for all of us around the world. thank you again for this wonderful welcome to your very special country. your kindness and gracious hospitality will not be forgotten. and now it is my honor to introduce to you my husband, the president of the united states, donald j. trump. >> thank you very much. it's so nice. the united states has many great diplomats, but there is truly no better ambassador for our country than our beautiful first lady, melania. thank you melania. that was very nice. we've come to your nation to deliver a very important message. america loves poland, and america loves the polish people. thank you. the polish americans have also greatly enriched the united states, and i was truly proud to have their support in the 2016 election. it is a profound honor to stand in this city by this monument to the warsaw uprising, and to address the polish nation that so many generations have dreamed of, a poland that is safe, strong, and free. president duda and your wonderful first lady have welcomed us with the tremendous warmth and kindness for which poland is known around the world. thank you. i'm sincerely, and i mean sincerely thank both of them, and to the prime minister, a very special thanks also. we are pleased that the former president so famous for leaving the solidarity movement has joined us today also. thank you. on behalf of all americans, let me also thank the entire polish people for the generosity you have shown in welcoming our soldiers to your country. these soldiers are not only brave defenders of freedom, but also symbols of america's commitment to your security and your place in a strong and democratic europe. we are proudly joined on stage by american, polish, british, and romaine y and romanian soldiers. thank you. great job. president duda and i have come back from a meeting from the leaders participating in the 3 cs. america to eager to expand our partnership with you. we welcome stronger ties of trade in commerce as you grow your economies, and we are committed to securing your access to alternate sources of energy. so poland and its neighbors are never again held hostage to a single supplier of energy. mr. president, i congratulate you along with the president of croatia on your leadership of this historic 3 cs initiative. thank you. this is my first visit to central europe as president, and i am thrilled that it could be right here at this magnificent, beautiful piece of land. it is beautiful. poland is the geographic heart of europe, but more importantly, in the polish people, we see the soul of europe. your nation is great because your spirit is great, and your spirit is strong. for two centuries poland suffered constant and brutal attacks. but while poland could be invaded, and occupied, and its borders even erased from the map, it could never be erased from history or from your hearts. in those dark days, you have lost your land, but you never lost your pride. so it is with this true admiration that i can say today that from the farms and villages of your country side to the cathedrals and squares of your great cities, poland lives, poland prospers and poland prevails. despite every effort to transform you, oppress you, or destroy you, you endured and overcame. you are the proud nation of copernicus. think of that. chopin, st. paul john ii, poland is a land of great heros. and you are a people who know the true value of what you defend. the triumph of the polish spirit over centuries of hardship gives us all hope for a future in which good conquers evil and peace achieves victory over war. for americans, poland has been a cymb symbol of hope since the beginning of our nation. polish heros and american patriots fought side by side in our war of independence, and in many wars that followed. our soldiers still serve together today in afghanistan and iraq combatting. for america's part we have never given up on freedom and independence as the right of the polish people, and we never, ever will. our two countries share a special bond forged by unique histories and national characters. it's a floip that exists only among people who have fought and bled and died for freedom. the signs of this friendship stand in our nation's capital just steps from the white house we've raised statues of men with names like polasky and kosiasko. the same is true in warsaw where street signs carry the name of george washington and a monument stands to one of the world's greatest heros, ronald reagan. and so i am here today not just to visit an old ally, but to hold it up as an example for others who seek freedom and who wish to summon the courage and the will to defend our civilization. the story of poland is the story of a people who have never lost hope, who have never been broken, and who have never, ever forgotten who they are. [ crowd chanting ] >> thank you so much. thank you. thank you so much. such a great honor. this is a nation more than 1,000 years old. your borders were erased for more than a century, and only restored just one serchg centur. in 1920 in the miracle, poland stopped the soviet army bent on european conquest. then 19 years later in 1939 you were invaded yet again. this time by nazi germany from the west and the society union from the east. that's trouble. that's tough. under a double occupation, the polish people endured evils beyond description. a fore massacre, the occupations, the holocaust, the warsaw ghetto and the warsaw ghetto uprising. the destruction of this beautiful capital city, and the deaths of nearly one in five polish people. a vibrant jewish population, the largest in europe, was reduced to almost nothing after the nazis systematically murdered millions of polish jewish citizen along the countless others during that brutal occupation. in the summer of 1944 the nazi and soviet armies were preparing for a terrible and bloody battle right here in warsaw. amid that hell on earth the citizens of poland rose up to defend their homeland. i am deeply honored to be joined on stage today by veterans and heros of the warsaw uprising. [ applause ] [ crowd chanting ] >> what great spirit. we salute your noble sacrifice, and we pledge to always remember your fight for poland and for freedom. thank you. thank you. this monument reminds us that more than 150,000 polish people died during that desperate struggle to overthrow oppression. from the other side of the river, the soviet armed forces stopped and waited. they watched as the nazis ruthlessly destroyed the city, viciously murdering men, women, and children. they tried to destroy this nation forever by shattering it will to survive, but there's a courage and a strength deep in the polish character that no one could destroy. the polish monoer, the bishop said it well. more horrifying than the defeat of arms is the collapse of the human spirit. through four decades of communist rule, poland and the other captive nations of europe endured a campaign to demolish freedom. your faith, laws, history, identity, indeed, the very essence of your culture and your humanity. yet, through it all, you never lost that spirit. your oppressors tried to break you, but poland could not be broken. and when the day came on june 2nd, 1979, and one million polish people gathered around victory square for their first mass with their polish pope, that day every communist in warsaw must have known that their oppressive system would soon come crashing down. they must have known it at the exact moment during pope john paul ii's sermon when a million polish men, women, and children raised their voices in a single prayer. a million polish people did not ask for wealth. they did not ask for privilege. instead, one million polish people saying three simple words. we want god. in those words the polish people recalled the promise of a better future. they found new courage to face down their oppressors, and they found the words to declare that poland would be poland once again. as i stand here today before this incredible crowd, this faithful nation, we can still hear those voices that echo through history. their message is as true today as ever. the people of poland, the people of america, and the people of europe still cry out we want god. together with pope john paul ii, the polish people reasserted their identity as a nation devoted to god, and with that powerful declaration of who you are, you came to understand what to do and how to live. you stood in solidarity against oppression, against a lawless secret police, against a cruel and wicked system that impoverished your cities and souls, and you won. poland prevailed. poland will always prevail. [ crowd chanting ] >> thank you. you were supported in that victory over communist by a strong alliance of free nations in the west that defied tyranny. now among the most committed members of the nato alliance, poland has resumed it place as a leading nation of a europe that is strong, whole, and free. a strong poland is a blessing to the nations of europe, and they know that. a strong europe is a blessing to the west, and to the world. 100 years after the entry of american forces into world war i, the transatlantic bond between the united states and europe is as strong as ever, and maybe in many ways, even stronger. this continent no longer confronts the specter of communi communism, but today we're in the west, and we have to say there are dire threats to our security and to our way of life. you see what's happening out there. they are threats. we will confront them. we will win. but they are threats. >> we are confronted by another oppressive ideology. one that seeks to export terrorism and extremism all around the globe. america and europe have suffered one terror attack after another. we're going to get it to stop. during a historic gavthering in saudi arabia i called on the leaders of more than 50 muslim nations to come together to drive out the menace which threatens all of humanity. we must stand united against shared enemies to strip them of their territory and funding and networks and any form of ideological support that they may have. while we will always welcome new citizen who share our value and love our people, our border will always be closed to terrorism and extremism of any kind. >> we are fighting hard against radical islamic terrorism, and we will prevail. we cannot accept those who reject our values and who use hatred to justify violence against the innocent. today the west is also confronted by the powers that seek to test our will, undermine our confidence, and challenge our interests to meet new forms of aggression including propaganda, financial crimes, and cyber war fair. we must adapt our alliance to compete effectively in new ways and on all new battle fields. we urge russia to cease its destabilizing activities in ukraine and elsewhere, and to support for hostile regimes including syria and iran. and to instead join the community of responsible nations in our fight against common enemies and in defense of civilization itself. finally, on both sides of the atlantic, our citizens are confronted by yet another danger. one firmly within our control. this danger is invisible to some, but for millions the steady creep of government bureaucracy that drains the vitality and wealth of the people. the west became great not because of paper work and regulations but because people were allowed to chase their dreams and pursue their destinies. americans, poles and nations of europe enjoy individual freedom and sovereignty. we must work together to confront forces where are they come from inside or out from the south or the east, that threaten over time to undermine these values and to erase the bonds of culture, faith, and tradition that make us who we are. if left unchecked, these forces are undermine our courage, sap our spirit, and weaken our will to defend ourselves and our societies. but just as our adversaries and enemies of the past learned here in poland, we know that these forces, too, are doomed to fail if we want them to fail, and we do, indeed, want them to fail. they are doomed not only because our alliance is strong. our countries are resilient, and our power is unmatched. through all of this, you have to say everything is true. our adversaries, however, are doomed because we will never forget who we are, and if we don't forget who we are, we just can't be beaten. americans will never forget. the nations of europe will never forget. we are the fastest and the greatest community. there is nothing like our community of nations. world has never known anything like our community of nations. we write symphonies. we pursue innovation. we celebrate our ancient heros, embrace timeless traditions and customs and always seek to discover brand new frontiers. we reward brilliance. we strive for excellence and charrish inspiring works of art that honor guard. we treasure the rule of law and protect the right to free speech and free expression. we empower women as pillars of our society and of our success. we put faith and family, not government and bureaucracy at the center of our lives, and we debate everything. we challenge everything. we seek to know everything, so that we can better know ourselves. and above all, we valley the dignity of every human life, protect the rights of every person, and share the hope of every soul to live in freedom. that is who we are. those are the priceless ties that bind us together as nations, as allies, and as a civilization. what we have, what we inherited from our -- and you know this better than anybody and see it today with this incredible group of people. what we've inherited from our ancestors has never existed to this extent before. and if we fail to preserve it, it will never, ever exist again. so we cannot fail. this great community of nations has nothing else in common. in every one of them, it is the people, not the powerful, who have always formed the foundation of freedom. and the corner stone of our defense. the people have been that foundation here in poland as they were right here in warsaw, and they were the foundation from the very, very beginning in america. our citizens did not win freedom together. did not survive horrors together. did not face down evil together only to lose our freedom to a lack of pride and confidence in our values. we did not, and we will not. we will never back down. as long as we know our history, we will know how to build our future. americans know that a strong alliance, a free sovereign and independent nations is the best defense for our freedoms and for our interests. that is why my administration has demanded that all members of nato finally meet their full and fair financial obligations. as a result of this insistence, billions of dollars more have begun to pour in to nato. in fact, people are shocked. but billions and billions of dollars coming in from country that, in my opinion, would not have been paying so quickly. to those who would criticize our tough stance, i would point out that the united states has demonstrated not merely with words but with it actions that we stand firmly behind article 5, the mutual defense commitment. words are easy, but actions are what matters. and for it own protection, you're -- and you know this. everybody knows this. everybody has to know this. europe must do more. europe must demonstrate that it believes in its future by investing its membership to secure that feature. that's why we applaud poland for its decision to move forward this week on asquacquiring the battle tested patriot air and missile defense system, the best anywhere in the world. that is also why we salute the polish people for being one of the nato countries that has actually achieved the bench mark for investment in our common defense. thank you, thank you poland. i must tell you the example you set is truly magnificent, and we applaud poland. thank you. we have to remember that our defense is not just a commitment of money. it is a commitment of will, because as the polish experience reminds us, the defense of the west ultimately rests not only on means but also on the will of it people to prevail and be successful and get what you have to have. the fundamental question of our time is whether the west has the will to survive. do we have the confidence in our values to defend them at any cost? do we have enough respect for our citizens to protect our borders? do we have the desire and the courage to preserve our civilization in the face of those who would subvert and destroy it? we can have the largest economies and the most lethal weapons anywhere on earth, but if we do not have strong families and strong values, then we will be weak, and we will not survive. if anyone forgets the critical importance of these things, let them come to one country that never has. let them come to poland. and let them come here to warsaw and learn the story of the warsaw uprising. when they do, they should learn about learn about jerusalem avenue. in august of 1944, jerusalem avenue was one of the main roads running east and west through this city just as it is today. control of that road was crucially important to both sides in the battle for warsaw. the german military wanted it as their most direct route to move troops and to form a very strong front. and for the polish home army, the ability to pass north and south across that street was critical to keep the center of the city and the uprising, itself, from being split apart and destroyed. every night the pols put up sandbags amid machine gunfire and it was horrendous fire, to protect a narrow passage across jerusalem avenue. every day the enemy forces knock them down again and again and again, then the pols dug a trench, finally they built a bir cade and the brave polish fighters began to flow across jerusalem avenue. >> that narrow passageway just a few feet kwied i wide was the fragile link that kept the uprising alov. a constant stream of freedom fighters made their perilous just perilous. they ran across that street. they ran through that street. they ran under that street. all to defend the city, the far side was several yards away recalled one young polish woman named getta. >> that mortality and that life was so important to her. in fact, she said the mortally dangerous sector of the street was soaked if blood, it was the blood of mess enjers -- messengers, nazi snipers shot, anybody that crossed were shot at. their soldiers burned every building on the streets. they used the pols as human shields for their tanks in their effort to capture jerusalem avenue. the enemy never ceased the relentless assault on that small civilization. the pols never ceased its defense t. jerusalem avenue passage required constant protection, repair and reenforcement. but the will of its defenders did not waiver even in the face of death and to the last days of the uprising, the fragile crossing never, ever failed. it was never, ever forgotten. it was kept opened by the polish people. the memories of those who perished in the warsaw uprising cry out across the decade and fewer clearer than the memories of those who died to build and defend the jerusalem avenue crossing. those heroes remind us that the west was saved with the blood of patriots. >> that each generation must rise up and play their part in its defense. and that every foot of ground and every last inch of civilization is worth defending with your life. our own fight for the west does not begin on the battlefield, it begins with our minds, our wills and our souls. today the ties that unite our civilization are no less vital and demand no less defense than that bear shred of land on which the hope of poland once totally rested. our fremont e freedom, our civilization and our survival depend on these bonds of history, culture and memory and today as ever poland is in our heart and its people are in that fight. just as poland could not be broken, i declare today for the world to hear that the west will never, ever, be broken. our values will prevail. our people will thrive. and our civilization will trium triumph. >> thank you. so towing, let us all fight like the pols for family, for freedom, for country and for god. thank you, god bless you, god bless the polish people, good bless our allies and god bless the united states of america. thank you, god bless you. thank you very much. >> you have been listening to president trump giving his major speech at the warsaw uprising monument in par saw, poland. how many minutes? 37 minutes, 36-and-a-half minutes. joe, a lot of a review of poland's history for the first part of the speech, but got so some questions in terms of goals near the end there. >> you know the first half of the speech was packed with platitudes and drive and obvious talking points and was an extremely disappointing speech for anyone hoping to get policy points out of it, i will say, towards the end, though, after he got past reminding poland that they were helpful, in reminding them they were once invaded by both the nazis and the soviets, he actually made news at the final part of this speech and said some very significant things. first of all, the first significant thing he said was the bonds between the united states and europe are as strong as ever and possibly even stronger than ever. he even made a passing negative reference to russia. he did say later in the speech and this is a big take away, consider whack he has not said in the past that the united states and the president of the united states stands firmly behind article 5, nato. something that steve ban none and others took out of the speech, a prior speech and also richard haase he announce thad the pols were purchasing a missile defense system, a missile defense system that russia has publicly declared to be a quote direct threat in the past, also a missile system that president obama backed away from to the consternation not only of poland but also many of our allies in central europe. so despite the slow start, despite the platitudes, there actually is a good bit of news and i would say positive news for our european allies that were packed in the final ten minutes of this speech. >> right, it was a tedious speech, serious editing. a clear affirmation of nato's article 5 is significant t. fact that the russians were singled out in a sentence for criticism of their destable zaition in eastern ukraine. that was a significant defense of missile systems important. what was missing, obviously, joe, though, was any reference to russian interference in american and western elections. surprisingly to me, no mention of north korea. i did, however, call on russia to back off its support of syria and iran, none of which russia will ever do. >> david ignacious, for those of us looking for hints on the side line of the g20 summit may go between president trump and vlad vlad. we got one line, we urge russia to stop destabilizing activities in ukraine and elsewhere. what's the significance of that ahead of that meet something. >> i think that's just a little warning, willie, that the u.s. is going to seek to negotiate fulfillment of agreement that make syria and ukraine more stable. i thought the most interesting thing at the end of the speech was the strong affirmation of traditional alliances. you referred several times to the community of nations in europe and the values that they share. he even talked about freedom of speech and freedom of expression. not his favorite theme in recent weeks in the u.s. but i thought in terms of re-affirming the traditional role and language of u.s. leadership, there was more at the end of the speech tan i've seen in his previous trips abroad i think for people who are looking for some reassurance that the u.s. wants to play that leadership role, there is a little meat on the bones in that speech. >> there is and we are obviously focusing on donald trump's meeting with vladimir putin tomorrow, equally important at least in my mind is his meeting with angela america em and em getting the relationship with what is the united states most important allie at this point in europe, markal person, angela america em-- -- owe mark halperin, hang la murkel has enough to be heartened by, let's say relieved considering his past performance, we can talk about article 5, the missile shield that obviously vladimir putin is going to see in an antagonistic way. something again that was in the works. but still something he announced on stage in poland and underlining what david said, again, despite how tedious the speech was through most of it. the end, at least, if not in style in content could have been ronald reagan in 1984 talking about upholding western civilization and again, quite remarkably talking about the freedom of the press and the very things that he has been criticized the very values he has been criticized for trampling at home, he actually champions in poland and let us hope it sends a positive message to our allies because we are now hearing it from the president of the united states and not james mattis. >> there are all these specific things, trade, russia and nato, if you want to be optimistic is a thing of value. donald trump was a democrat and a nancy pelosi supporter and becomes the republican nominee who has no history on the world stage. i think a lot of people at home and abroad have questions, what his values, what does he believe in? why does he want to be president on the global stage? this speech could have been reagan, obama or clinton in expressing the values a lot of american allies would like to see, under gird, whatever policies he's pursued. >> we have been hearing mika the united states stands with their allies, stands firmly behind article 5. the united states stands for the values, we have been hearing it from james mattis. we have been hearing it from rex tillerson. we have been hearing from general mcmaster. we have been hearing it from everybody but the president of the united states and again for american audiences, it may not mean much that this speech was in poland but poland has been seen by russia as a thorn in its tame for sometime. there can be only significance read into this of course it can change in the next 15 minutes. >> put it, for donald trump, maybe this can be seen as a sign of hope. this was a scripted speech, steve kornacki, but the hope that you could have at this point is that he gets good feedback for it and continues to stick to this trip. we haven't seen that in the past t. worry is when he gets off script what happens, but certainly during this speech there were some lines drawn that seems substantive. >> i think that's right. i think in the content this is different speech we seen and herd him deliver before. there are two ways to interpret. the other with donald trump, you have to consider here, who is the audience, how did he begin this speech? it was notable by citing the political speech from polish americans saying how honored he was by that you think the message from murkel, he wanted to go there around deliver a defiant message to her. maybe he felt the polish government having been behind the scenes has been kind to him murkel and other governments have been, this might be the donald trump saying some things he wanted to le cipro indicate with kindness. we'll see. if he delivers the message in a different context. i think that's the key. >> one of the more troubling things, really in his last trip to europe, when the article 5 language was written in, he stripped out at the last minute. he ignored james mattis and the secretary of state. he ignored his national security adviser and stripped it out. i think it's quite significant. most of these speeches are obviously written out, are drafted by the staff and it doesn't appear anything significant was stripped out. i will, you know, i will take a prepared speech like this that underlines the importance of article 5 that talks about a missile defense system that russia despises, that it loathe, that it's always loathed since first proposed by george w. bush. i will take that over some random tweets any day of the week. >> the national security team was clear and vocal about having their language stripped out of that speech at nato last month. they didn't like it. obviously, they said it's a tradition to confirm article 5. the white house said the very presence at nato affirmed our support of article 5. it was clear, you have to say it standing out loud. he said we stand firmly behind article 5, that mutual defense pack. let's go back to warsaw, peter alexander is there covering the president in his speech. first of all, what was the vibe there? we we heard chants of support, cheering during the speech. what was it like to be from? >> reporter: i think the bottom lean is we knew there was going to be a loud crowd in support of donald trump. we got the headlines in recent days saying parliamentary people said they bussed in constituents for the more rural part of this country who sort of share that populist, that nationalistic view of the government here, also of doctor donald trump. i think what was striking to us is how many people gathered for this, let's be clear for an american president is a surprise, we get a strong reception here. for the criticism the president receives about abdicateing his role as the leader of the free world, of the west, he may get a real time reaction from angela merkel, the two meet this afternoon. i think the message of isis immigration straight seem to be directed to his base of supporters in the united states when he said what may be described as the trump doctrine the fundamental question over time is whether the west has the will to survive. he delivered a clear message in advance of this conversation with vladimir putin tomorrow. this is what he said specifically about russia. take a listen. >> reporter: today the west is also confronted by the powers that seek to test our will, undermine our confidence and challenge our interests, to meet new forms of aggression including propaganda, financial crimes and cyber warfare, we must adapt our alliance to compete effectively in new ways and on all new battlefields. we urge russia to cease its destabilizing activities in you vain and elsewhere and it's support for hostile regimes including syria and iran and to instead join the community of responsible nations in our fight against common enemies and a defense of civilization, itself. >> of course, no mention of defense of america's sovereignty, white house officials haven't said whether president trump tomorrow during his conversations with vladimir putin will talk about the election, he declined to solely place the blame for that on russia. >> we will see what he says tomorrow, peter alexander in warsaw. thank you. >> joining us now the host of msnbc deadline director and professor of george w. bush nicole wallace. national security counter terrorism analyst and former director of the national counter terrorism center mike at leiter joins us as well. >> thank you. >> nicole, your thoughts on the president's speech in poland. >> well, i think i we heard from probably the same kind of folks as the speech was happening is the desire and the affirmation of our support for article 5 and for donald trump tough words for russia t. truth is they started with the president of the united states the leader of the free world and poland attacking nbc and cnn, name checking two news networks. so the professionals who had to sacrifice their first born to get that affirmation for article 5 in the speech to get the toughening line on russia in the speech have to compete with the president's instinct, his primal instincts to constantly war with the american media. >> and the intelligence media. >> and you have to always acknowledge the bar is so low, it's buried beneath the ground. >> so, michael, let's look at obviously we were highly critical of what the president said this morning. and the first 20 minutes of one of the worst presidential speeches i've ever we heard on foreign soil, but, he finished strong. like sugar ray leonard with four rounds at the end. he finished strong, because in the last few minutes of what i thought was going to be one of the worst speeches ever, our allies in europe got a lot. reaffirmation of article 5. talking about a missile defense shield that, of course, vladimir putin and the russian versus called a direct threat. they despise it. they loathe it. it's hard for americans to understand how much they do. also, speaking out against the propaganda the financial crimes the destabilization of allies by russia and the support of our enemie enemies, it seems as if general mcmaster and general mattis may have actually got in their way. >> i think they won this round and the rhetoric may not have been soaring, but the really fact-based messages at the end were critical. >> right. >> let's face it. when we -- >> especially for angela merkel and others looking at it. they say what do you stand for? >> this is baby steps. we went so far back. it's going to take a while. i hope what the president -- i know the team thinks. i hope the president realizes this, these are our friends, these are our western allies. these are governments who have our same value who understand the threat of russia. when we are faced with russian aggression, north korean instability. we have syria, don't make enemies of our friends, take the easy wins and speaking to poland reenforcing nato and the alignment in western europe, this is an easy wings, i'm happy he made the layout. >> david ignacious, your take. >> well, i'm happy you made the layup, too. we are talking earlier in the show about the concern that he would express this america first theme of his presidency in a way that excluded our allies and go it alone theme. at the end of this speech in warsaw, you we heard the president saying, american security is based on the network of relationships, the community of nations, a strong europe is good for the world, language that's very traditional, that's really at the center of what american power has been for the last 40 years. i we heard this president repeating. it's a particularly good time to do it. because there are real potential military threats coming out of north korea. i thought that language got america back to the kind of traditional role, working its power through its friends and allies. i thought that was an important step for trump. >> the question is, why now? obviously, he had the press conference, yes, this was a prepared speech he was reading from. as we said been, he has given a popular speech before, where he stripped the article 5 language out at the end, not engaging in criminology, i say this it's important to say this, it's the reality in the white house, there are some rounds that steve ban none win and there are some rounds that the responsible leaders that have fought for and bled for and defended this country for most of their adifficult life, sometimes they win those round and it appears that general mattis and general mcmaster won this round. why now do you think? >> well, i think two reasons, one, they made abundantly clear they had cleanup to do after the botched nato stop. two, there are meetings around the clock. you know as well as i do, deeming with the deadly terrifying threat of north korea. i think they said, don't mess this part up. these are layups. i guess my head, we're celebrating the fact that he affirmed -- >> no, no, no, we're not celebrating. >> i'm not saying us, i'm saying the world is at a point where it's relieved, where we exhail, he didn't mess up any more of our oldest alliances. >> that can actually as we said that can change in five minutes with a tweet. >> right. >> much better that he did say that today than what he did last time. >> yes, much better. but there's also ongoing reports that he's constantly teased angela merkel is going to poke him in the eye sarah palin said with climate change. theyco exist with this irritation they don't fall in line like a country like poland who loves over owe let's face it, he likes this because they like him, let's not make this. they love every american president. they loved president obama. hay adored president -- >> we have a few polls that show pols love america. only 57% of polands do not trust him. there it is, so the love they have for this country. >> is limited. >> let's ask this question. richard haase and david ignacious and michael, there's a new reality for world leaders, for angela merkel and for vladimir putin to sort through what donald trump is saying. and as nicole said, here we are saying, hey, it's a great thing he did what every president since harry truman did finally. how do they sort through there? i know, we'll get to you the second day, i know you have been going around the world talking to these leaders. you do as well, how do they sort through a brutish press conference this morning with a traditional speech that george w. bush or bill clinton or ronald reagan could have given. >> it will prolong the inability of the rest of the world to get a clear fix on the 45th president of the united states. they spent inordinate hours trying to figure out where it is and where he is going. the fact is natural stuff this morning at the press conference was much more if you will the real donald trump the speech was a more disciplined donald trump, they won't know how much credence to put in the speech. they will be welcome as you say, they don't know how long it will last. i think the bottom line is they see a larger trend. this is a president seen as anti-substitution institutional. i think they see opportunities. in asia, so i think the larger at stake is this is not an america that is prepared to lead in the same way america always had. this confers on them some opportunities. >> i think each will pursue it in their own way and for america merck merkel will tighten that tie with mattis, tillerson and push for a reenforced nato and the like. for putin, he will continue to manipulate as best he can to take this opportunity to break that down. i think the most interesting play will be how china reacts to the president and how the president learns to work with china. because the current approach of the random tweets here and there, changing every month will not move china in the direction we need it to move on north korea. that's the one which is the most immature relationship and potentially the most fractious. >> michael, in the speech with the european partners are a layup. he said this morning. >> steph curry. >> the president of the united states said in a joint press conference with the polish president that we have severe things on the table that we were considering doing with north korea. what does that mean exactly? when you look at the options, whether it's a surgical strike or diplomacy or sanctions, there is no easy way at this. >> this was an impossible problem 20 years ago when they first moved down this path. it's not a 3-pointer. this is half court or full court. the military options is astroeshsly bad, it would lead to hundreds of thousands dead. including americans. we got 130 americans in and around seoul, japan is also vulnerable to the missiles. i think in that sense, military has to be pushed off t. push i think the president made the right choice when he came in of trying to press china, but that is going to be a very hard path. china has different incentives here. so i think it's going to be a combination of recognizing north korea is committed to developing nuclear weapons. they have them. the question is, how can we reduce that threat or reduce that and try to at least pressure them to act rational. >> david ignacious, there are severe plans, i'm not sure that was in the script. we have to check. having said that, your response to his comments on that note. >> well, what struck me most about this speech, mika, a month ago i was in russia hearing kremlin advisers say, the liberal international order that the united states has championed, that is the source of american power is dying. it's falling apart t. russians said that with great emphasis. and you we heard today an american president who has been skeptical about aspects of that affirm it and talk about the community of nations, talk about our shared common destiny. it was all a pushback to the russian, the world is going our way again. and i think merkel and leaders across europe will be very happy with that language. they want to know, how does that translate in reality? is this one speech or does this really reflect a donald trump who understands the nature of america's power is that it flows to allies, friends, military commitments. and that, you know, we'll see that over the next couple days. we'll see a particular test of it in dealing with north korea. can he lead with our allies, defense and potentialed adversari adversaries, china, russia that ramp ets up the pressure but doesn't take us to war. that's the next big thing we're all going to be watching. >> nicole the question is, again, it's a fascinating point, can he dlefr this soeliver this speech in a country where he has a bad relationship, because of the past. for instance, could he deliver the same speech in front of angela merkel or is this just personal? is it the polish people love american president so he can deliver the soar something. >> listen, it's a perfect point -- >> i'm sorry, i have to correct myself. there was nothing soaring, about that, so he delivered turgent talking points that actually may help some of our allies sleep a little bit better at night. >> i totally agree. i think it's about overwriting the circuitry. i think the speech was on the part of tillerson the national security staff of overriding his circuit try. his circuitry was laid bare in the news psych them morning. they will try every day for as many hours as they're awake, which is twoebl 22, 24 hours a day. they will try every lour of their waking lives while they're serving this government with the president to override his circuitry. it's laid bare on twitter all day every day t. circuitry is that he doesn't understand our lives as he thinks our participation in na that is on exercise in charity that we different them money, that it's like a foundation. >> can i suggest he and steve ban none think that the people elected him think that nato is a luxury we can no longer afford. >> i don't think it's that complicated. >> i think he's fairly cynical, donald trump, in trying to figure out how to get certain segment of the buzzer with don't want it in nato. who don't like nato, who distrust nato. >> i don't think that nanny one is against america having -- we're the only ones that have cashed in on article 5. we went to war in afghanistan. we brought other countries to war with us. so i don't think that the voters, you know, don't like that. i think voters like that they don't want to go it alone no matter the political affiliation, democrats or republicans, particularly military families don't want to go it alone. i think it's about the professionals the mattis' the staff, overriding his circuitry and all of his impulses and wiring is what we think on twitter. >> what do you think he thinks those individuals care from saying it just can't happen? you can't tweet, you can't talk unless you read what we say? at what point does it get to that? >> i think that's how they get a brms this morning. >> i get. that i saw the speech that was written. i saw that. then an hour before, he's ripping on the intelligence community, on the media and on other things to the point where it's -- >> well, richard haase, you've worked for presidents before. why doesn't someone working for a president just kick down the door and say enough is enough? >> well, i actually think several of the leading leiutenants around the president should do that about policy alike. they should say for us to justify this, so that the benefits are influenced outweighs the costs of association, here's our terms, here's our terms in terms of process, here's in it in terms of policy. if you sign up, great, otherwise. >> what are you doing? >> otherwise you are enabling something you don't believe in and the sacrifices to cost and reputation and life far overwhelm any good you can have and you can prevent. >> it is an ongoing war of attrition. i know we have to go to a break. this is is up an important point. i remember bob gates, michael, early on, saying, in effect, i get to vote for this guy, but if you feel like you can work for this guy, then you into ed to do everything you can to influence this guy for the good of the country. i will say, if it's a war of attrition every day, i will just say it, against steve bannon and steve bannon's close-minded 36% solution that has kept donald trump in the 30s and yet if you are general mattis, and you have had to go into fallujah and clean it up, after the hell that was fallujah, dealing with bureaucratic battles with talks in the west wing and i will say it with little punks in the west wing that want to throw away american values and alliances that we've had since 1947, that's not that tough. general mattis can handle that. general mcmaster can handle that. they've seen mump worse. they are today, today they won the battle. but it is a war of attrition. >> i agree they can deal with the nsc punks, but they can't -- >> i wasn't calling the nsc punks, i was talking about steve bannon. go ahead. >> you are right, leiutenant,ly do it that way, wake up the next morning and see something and does it anyway. >> and by the way, from everything that we have seen, just look at the facts. don't put any feelings on the table. who here, what are the chances, that he's not going to tweet or say something in the next 24 hours that kind of undermines all this? >> we all know. we all know, we all know it's going to happen again. i remember after the speech that he gave the joint session, we the next morning said, good job, he may tweet something. you know, in a day or two that can destroy everything. guess what, that weekend, he tweeted about barack obama. i remember we were all on the set talking about how they handled syria in a measured way, said good for now, let's hope he continues that way. that's why david ignacious final thoughts for this. >> alex screams in my ear because this continues, but this is the war of attrition that i'm talking about, do you -- and i guess as americans, we have to ask ourselves, do we want general mcmaster in there? or do we want donald trump to have a chance to like another michael flynn. >> just on the attrition, as president trump was about to begin that speech in warsaw, i got a note from someone in the white house who, let's just say, is not one of the bannonites saying you got to really pay attention to this, the president in this speech is going to affirm traditional alliances and values and as we have been discussing, that's exactly what happened. but it was interesting that somebody in the middle of this war of attrition in the trump white house wanted to say, pay attention to this, this is one we won. >> the war of attrition was on full display today. you had a scripted speech that stayed largely between the lines in warsaw and even in the prepared remarks with the president of poland, but when he is asked a question, then there is no script. that's when you get the pure distilled donald trump who goes after cnn, attacks the intel agency, goes on an extended rift of president obama, or won't criticize pr acknowledgment knowledge russia's meddling in the election. what do you do about that? you can script him, you can brief him until are you blue in the face. when he is asked a question, he will do what he wants to do. >> it's a war of attrition and as nicole said, michael, i can't believe are you doing this, phil griffin, it's not alex's fault. that's what nicole said is the truth. they work every day to override the circuitry, to get him to not act on the media's instinct. >> you work the boss. you work people sitting here. and most importantly, you work and communicate to your counterparts, to your japanese counterparts, south korean, or british or german counterparts and say, don't worry, he said some things. this is what he means. this is the direction we are going. >> that is the diplomacy which is critical to keep these key alliances on track when you have a president that wakes up a little angry on twitter. >> was that a credibility, it's one of the reasons it's hard to be in this administration, whether everything you saw in the gutter recently. you seen it with allies, the president. you work for the president. he doesn't work for you. at the end of the day, allies and friends around the world focus much more on what this president does than what his secretary of state or defense or national security adviser said. i think nicole has a basic, bake poin basic point. it's not just steve bannon, when he looks at the last period of history the united states paid a lot more in the world. he thinks it's been a lousy investment. that's why he's against trade agreement and alliances stharks is h that is his basic take on the world. >> it's important for us in manhattan and for those in washington, d.c. to understand there are a lot of americans out there that feel the same way and felt the same way long before donald trump became president of the united states. they want to know why the united states has carried the world on its shoulders since 1947. they want to know why we have been competing against japan and germany economically. why they have been taking our jobs. this is what a lot of americans have said. and they still don't have to pay much for their defense spending. it is, it's not as if -- that's why i said it was cynic am. it's not as if they're just doing this out of thin air. there is an audience out there. there is always been an audience out there. and i think a lot of them were the very people, my comb, who voted for barack obama eight years ago, because they wanted better jobs, but who voted for donald trump in wisconsin, pennsylvania, ohio and michigan, this time saying, c'mon, how long are we going to spends $2 billion a month in yaafghanista. when will it start rebuild, pennsylvania schools? that's the mindset that bannon hasn't tapped into. >> it's all those impulses towards the "isms" it's what george bush weighed into the iraq war in afghanistan, it start of dragged on. it wasn't viewed by the public as particularly going well. it was his fear of isms taking hold, detroit, wisconsin and people sort of retreating into this cynicism. it's bob runson telling people what to be afraid of and what to blame. there is no sort of president in american presidential history on someone running on that and delivering on that he ran on ice lakesism. he is now with bannon guiding, leading the way, trying to deliver isolationism. it doesn't work when your entire national security team is trying to prevent an attack from north korea. >> not only does it not work on the world stage. it doesn't work at home. 80% of americans now support nato. a strong american presidents to nato. 36, 37% of americans support this president now. it is a short sided, day trading approach to american politics. >> it is. and i think the strategy that you put on the table that maybe his foreign policy team is trying to focus in and keep it, i think it's impossible where you have a president whose official statement consistently over the course of months are way outside the bounds of desency, commitment, duty, justice, i mean the list goes on. this is like nothing have you ever seen before and i think it's uncontrollable. i think there's going to have to be more done from the good people in there. if you are there. if you are hearing us. >> it's a war of attrition. >> nicole wallace, thank you very much. >> we will be watching deadline white house. >> popcorn, right? >> right here on nsnbc. >> likal leiter, davidic nacious, thank you all. ahead, we will bring in former u.s. investor to russia, michael mccollum. keep it right here on "morning joe." choicehotels.com. badda book. badda boom. that's it? he means book direct at choicehotels.com for the lowest price on our rooms guaranteed. plus earn free 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buttons and make cars appear out of thin air. find love anywhere. he's cute. and buy things from, well, everywhere. how? because our phones have evolved. so isn't it time our networks did too? introducing america's largest, most reliable 4g lte combined with the most wifi hotspots. it's a new kind of network. xfinity mobile. >> welcome back to "morning joe" professor of the institute of international studies at stanford, michael mccaul, mr. ambassador, let me start with you. let's think about tomorrow. let's look ahead from the speech in warsaw and that meeting on the side lines at the g20 summit between president trump and president putin. what can we reasonably expect out of that? what should the president of the united states do? >> well, those are two different things. >> true. >> from bring perspective what should happen is president trump should engage seriously about american national interests. he should talk about security and economic interests and his want, his desire to cooperate with russia. but only if russia commits to certain kind of conditions. what i expect is that president trump will meet putin, he's going to like putin. putin is a straight shooter, a straight talker. they were going to bonds over things like their common dislike of fake news and the deep state and putin is going to try to play to trump's ego to say, you and i need to work together against these enemies, especially throws in your country. so that we can do big things together. that's the thing i fear. >> so he said, mr. ambassador, in the speech this afternoon, in warsaw, he said we urge russia to stop destabilizeing activities in ukraine and elsewhere, also, urge him to stop supporting syria and iran the regimes in those two countries. no mention of interference or meddleing, you might not expect in a speech like that. do you think donald trump will raise russian interference in the 2016 presidential election with putin? >> again, what i think he should do and what he might do are two different things. >> do you think he will? >> absolutely. of course. of course, he needs to raise it. russia violated our sovereignty last year. they know they violated our sovereignty. putin know what is he did. and for trump not to raise it makes him look weak or ignorant. neither of those two things are i think in president trump's interests. i think the strategy should be i know what you did, if you do it again, there will be serious consequences. and if he doesn't say that i the putin thinks that he's weak, he's vulnerable, he feels illegitimate. >> that plays to putin's strengths. >> that is not good for america. >> mr. ambassador, you mentioned being played. what is the possibility that president trump will be played in this? we seen situations where he's responded very quickly to things that irk him? >> well, you know, i have been in several meetings with presidents and prime minister putin when he met with president obama and vice president biden. he does his homework. he does his substantive homework, right. he comes with an agenda. he also does his psychological home. he will raise thing ability people's backgrounds and things they've done 15 years ago. i seen that before. here he is trying to build a relationship with trump. he still believes at the end of the day he can pull trump towards his agenda and wants to do. that however, he can be prickly, you know bet were than i president trump can be prickly, i don't exclude over something minor they come out clashing in the meeting. >> ambassador, i wanted to get your thoughts on what we we heard a positive alliance from the president of the united states at least mentioning russia's involvement in ukraine, i saw on twitter a lot of people were attributing that to his meeting earlier this summer with the ukrainian president. this is a president who is sort of says things that the last person just told him so clearly poroshenko told him history regarding the conflict. do you expect president put on the give him his version of the history of the conflict and thus leave him with a different opinion on this situation on the ground there? >> absolutely. that's what president putin does. he has a very different interpretation. by the way, i thought it was good he had the sentence in there. i wish he would have used the word "annexation" and "invasion" as destabilizing ukraine. obviously, they fought over that line and decided to go with that safer line. putin will have a different interpretation of events. he will remind the president that crimea was a part of russia. he will tell them about nazis that took over in the ukraine and you know he'll try to say, these sanctions that were put in place be i that president obama, right, they can bond against their mutual, you know, dislike of president obama, these were illegitimate and they've given away, mr. president -- they get in the way of us doing business, after all, are you a businessman, i like to do business, let's move on to an american agenda and put behind this ukraine thing which after all didn't happen on your watchlist for the future. that the kind of arguments he will make on ukraine. how the president responds, of course, i don't know. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you very much. coming up. donald trump's long history of litigation, the magazine explores the president's legal battles in the past and president and why he may never have enough lawyers to get the job done. plus, president trump exhausts criticism over a tweet showing him wrestling a cnn logo. he thinks people are taking it too seriously. but media columnists, in "new york times," isn't so sure. she joins us ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. cancer challenges us. to find smarter solutions. to offer more precise and less invasive treatment options than before. like advanced genomic testing and immunotherapy. see how we're fighting to outsmart cancer at cancercenter.com/outsmart whuuuuuat?rtgage offer from the bank today. you never just get one offer. go to lendingtree.com and shop multiple loan offers for free! free? yeah. could save thousands. you should probably buy me dinner. no. go to lendingtree.com for a new home loan or refinance. receive up to five free offers and choose the loan that's right for you. our average customer could lower their monthly bills by over three hundred dollars. go to lendingtree.com right now. can we at least analyze customer can we push the offer online? legacy technology can handcuff any company. but "yes" is here. you're saying the new app will go live monday? yeah. with help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. with the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. . all right, joining us now, staff writer of the "new york times" magazine jonathan mueller, who whose speech focuses on president trump's past legal battles. his growing team of lawyers and what it means for the future of his presidency. write in part trump's lawyers practice trump law. trump law is theater, trump law does not concern itself with how you are supposed to do things. taking trump law to the oval office produced new and unfamiliar variety of legal troubles. there may never be enough trump lawyers to get the work done. the work is hard, sometimes humiliating. one irreducible character of a trump lawyer is he or she is willing to take on trump as a client. one who doesn't solicit advice simply ignores it, subverts legal strategy on national television who requires them to deny facts that he has confirmed and confirm facts he has denied, who won't stop tweeting inflammatoriory false statements. it's a lot to ask of a professional. wow. >> he doesn't pay you. >> of course. >> you have to pay him. >> so this explains why there are so many veteran of lawyers who as you say have despised strong men and tortureers who refuse to defend donald trump. >> spies, torturers and embezzleers, okay. donald trump, not so much. >> why is that? >> well, i think you summarized it pretty well right there. i think that he is going to undercut the legal strategy, ask you to essentially public humiliate yourself. to confirm things. >> like the white house press secretary job? >> yes, it is actually 2i78 i simil similar. >> at least it's your job to spin. the lawyer's job is to analyze and to think strategically and to think logically and not to say things that are completely ill logical or that contradict. >> yeah. >> he's obviously, historically, not been such a great client. how has he been in this case so far as we know? >> so far not well. it's amazing though, he's a guy who has been involved in lawsuits from the very beginning of his career, thousands of lawsuits, he's incredible. and it's sort of worked for him in a sense over the years, he lost plenty of lawsuits, but for him it didn't matter as long as he can declare victory. you know, now he's in a very different situation. i mean, he's in a place where the law matters. where you can't lose and simply declaire victory and, you know, and to get away with it. >> amidst all the problem between trump and trump lawyers is his family, a family and friends and sort of how do you differentiate who guess final say? because there are certain favorites within this sort of weird web of people. >> and there is a difference between being a magnet even in new york city and the president of the united states in washington, d.c. so how much scrutiny foes washi, d.c. how much scrutiny goes into the family discussions about which lawyers come along with them? >> or who they can get. >> because we know there were reports of lawyers turning them down. >> who would want that job? >> it's interesting, too. there's obviously in washington there's a whole kind of industry of d.c. scandal lawyers. i mean, people who have a lot of experience in situations like this, maybe none quite exactly like this, but similar enough. and yet trump hasn't hired any of those lawyers. he has instead hired, you know, his sort of trusted marc kasowitz from new york, who is a product liability lawyer. i mean, he's not a white collar criminal lawyer. >> actually gave advice to trump's workers to not hire lawyers. >> exactly. he's already made a huge misstep for a lawyer. so, you know, and, you know, he has brought in a couple of lawyers from washington, but even they are not sort of traditional washington lawyers. and so it's a very unusual way to say the least to go about dealing with something like this. >> jonathan muller, thank you. we'll be reading you in "the new york times" magazine. we're joined by cnbc's brian sullivan. let's zero in on comments from the president during his speech in poland that may have been overlooked. take a listen. >> president duda and i have just come from an incredibly successful meeting with the leaders participating in the three cs initiative. and we are committed to securing your access to alternate sources of energy. so, poland and its neighbors are never again held hostage to a single supplier of energy. >> that appears to be a reference to russia's oil dominance in the region, brian? >> yeah, it is, mika. in fact, the next battleground in europe is probably not going to have anything to do with bombs but rather with energy. the reason that comment was such a big deal is that right now the u.s. and russia are engaged in kind of a quiet fight over natural gas dominance in europe. the first shipment of u.s. liquefied natural gas from louisiana to poland docked there on june 8th, just about one month ago. it's the first time ever. not a huge shipment but it's a political statement. here's why -- russia dominates europe's natural gas. natural gas used to run power plants as well as heat homes, incredibly important. russia supplies 35% of all europe's natural gas import. in fact, guys, more than ten countries get nearly all of their natural gas from russia. russia has used natural gas as a political lever over countries like the ukraine at least twice in the last decade, and you remember the fight here over keystone pipeline? well, i want to put two more words in your ears -- nord stream. that is the name of a pipeline scheduled to open up in 2019. it goes through the baltic into germany. if it is completed it would pretty much solidify that stranglehold that russia has over natural gas in europe. >> all right. cnbc's brian sullivan. thank you very much. >> thank you, brian. >> joining us now, media chis for "the new york times," tim ruettenberg. his latest column, the u.s.s preis under siege as freedom rings. we heard the president talking about freedom of speech during his scripted speech. >> in the speech, right after attacking the media in the press conference before the speech. >> you know, i saw that part of the speech and i said that's heartening, you know, and then i turned on the device, oh, god -- >> disheartening. >> the press -- >> before. >> before. i mean, fake news, you know, cnn fake news in poland. >> so i guess what i don't understand is why he's doing this, because the -- he's helped "the new york times." he's helped "the washington post" tremendously. his attacks against us certainly did nothing but drive our ratings up. >> congratulations. >> and the thing is we didn't want it. we would have preferred to have, you know, lower ratings. but everybody he attacks seems to be doing better. >> it helps them. it solidifies the mission. you know, the readers say we want a free press. >> so why is he doing that? he's actually driving more readers to "the new york times" and "the washington post" and to this show by attacking. >> i have two theories. i wonder if one is concern about the base, just keeping his base loves it when he bashes us. and secondarily, maybe he just gets angry, right? >> i think that's it. i'm sorry. not to go back to what we, you know, experienced, but i could feel in real time this guy -- because we were having fun with the "time" cover, which is hilarious. it's funny. we've made fun of lots of people for funny things. >> right. >> and as part of, you know, being a president of the united states, honestly, you know, fun humor as well as analysis. >> right. >> and i could feel his blood boiling, because i know him. i'm sorry. and the guy reacts. he can be played. it's scary. >> and people close to him will tell you that he feels betrayed sometimes when he thinks people are his friends. look at his comments today, nbc, i've made them a lot of money be they forget that. >> that's whooo i'm talking about sort of childlike mind is what i'm worried about, that there is this sort of almost 8-year-old temperament, i have to punch right now, or that was wrong, i need to say something when it was completely unimportant to the grand scheme of things. i mean -- >> you're sayingitis not thought out. >> maybe it's a combination of everything. who knows? i mean, but the message it sends, that's why this morning to me is so important and not good. what happened is when you go overseas to a country where press freedom is under siege and you repeat a message that supports that president's own anti-press positions, this is not what i thought this country was about. press freedom is so fundamental. >> mark, what are the things the press is doing playing into his hands that we should do better to protect the public interest? >> it's great question. and we have to be careful. minimize mistakes honestly and take the emotion out. it's hard when reporters are getting attacked to take the emotion out. >> totally agree. >> it speaks to a global phenomenon too. there was this moment when putin was meeting with a chinese president and a an r.t. reporter introduced them and started talking about the russian word for fake news and talked about how she has a journalist was speaking about how journalists arnold the world are using the fourth estate wanting to turn it into the first and that journalism, bad journalism, fake journalism is the cause of so many wars and so many deaths around the world. so this isn't just a u.s. phenomenon we're seeing with our president right now. we're seeing this around the world. >> it feels sometimes less anti-mainstream media and more the practice of journalism as it's come to be practiced in the modern era. people want a journalism that will support their world view and that's it. >> do you look into the fact that there were media entities that family members wanted to buy? i mean, is there a grand scheme here? or is it more my fear that he just has a kind of childlike reaction to things? >> well, there's his reaction and then there's the people around him and their reaction, right, and we do know that had he not won the presidency, he was looking into a media play himself, right, the family was. steve bannon is from conservative media. so who knows? it's all a big stew. >> so what does the media do moving forward to obviously -- the media was blind-sided by donald trump's victory. most did fot see it coming. most still cannot understand how 35%, 36%, 37% of americans many still support donald trump, but they are out there and many of them are in my family and many of them are our friends. you know, a lot of us in the media go back to family reunions and find trump supporters around the table. we're still asking questions, how does the media connect with the rest of america? >> well, what we can't do, i fear we are doing, maybe too much of, is forgetting the lessons we said we were learning after we did miss that part of the election story. and so it's going back to what we were all saying, hopefully not all of us have to go back, we're doing it and getting it back in the country, talking to people, keeping our ears open and shelving our own emotions when we're being attacked. it's not part of the story trying to understand the country. >> we were surprised -- i wouldn't say surprised. i thought the republican was going to win, but georgia six was a clear victory for republicans and a clear defeat for democrats that a lot of people in the media didn't see coming. >> if that part of your mind-set is america must reject trump anytime trump is in any way validated it's hard for people to process. >> have to deemotionalize it. >> yeah. it's more complicated than most of the coverage suggests. >> it's a movement that would have been there even if he had not come along. >> correct. >> it will only be stronger in 2020 whether it's donald trump or somebody else. >> "the new york times," thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> tomorrow will be another big morning on -- >> what was that? >> attacked. >> loving nugis. >> you gave him a nugie? is this 1979? >> all right. >> okay. we've got to go. >> anyhow, tomorrow is a big morning. we'll see president trump come face-to-face with vladimir putin as they arrive at the g-20 summit in hamburg, germany. it should be a fascinating morning. that does it for us for now. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> thank you. there has been a few things going on. i'm chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. a lot of news breaking overnight starting with that tough talk. president trump overseas, one day away from that meeting with vladimir putin with some of thiz strongest language yet. >> we urge russia to cease its destabilizing activities in ukraine and elsewhere. >> and yet he took yet another swipe at the intelligence agency's reports that russia meddled in the election. >> i heard it was 17
over here. >> really? i'm not ready. i think we need to turn back time. >> potting soil. >> it's the last day of hanuk h hanukkah, there you go, how wonderful. >> thank you new reporting from nbc news reveals high level counterintelligence briefing from the summer of 2016, stay with me, summer of 2016 the fbi warned then cad donald trump that russians might try to infiltrate his campaign. hmm. citing multiple government officials familiar with the matter, the report says the warnings were timed to occur around the period when the candidates began receiving classified intelligence, which put them at greater risk from being targeted by spies. they got a clear morning. trump was believed and warned. the way they were put. at a session 2016 about sfaj attempts from russia. two law enforcement officials told nbc news, hillary clinton received a similar briefing and the candidates were urged to alert the fbi about any suspicious overtures to their campaign. you'd think you'd tell someone, right? >> i'm a little confused. >> what are you confused about? willie can tell you. >> shopping online. >> 4:30 in this chair. >> online christmas shopping is all i can do. you look good. >> we have been trying to figure out this time line. because they were warned by the fbi. >> it doesn't make any sense. >> they said if you see something, say something. >> say something, yes. definitely. >> few hear russians infiltrate. >> definitely report that. >> you can report that. >> we're now putting a frame around this say figure you see this, say it. >> say it. it's kind of like when welillie and i lived if turkey, if you know anyoneing heroin trade, let us know. we had sal came in. >> he gave you the definition of coup. >> he took the parts. anyway, we probably should have told turkish officials. >> you should have. >> now what if you were in that meeting briefed by the fbi and something had already happened? >> that was bad. >> you say it. >> that's the point i was making about turkey. that's the correlation here. >> it might be time to raise a meeting you had at trump tower, for example. >> that had to be after, or before, what? >> i was trying to show that time line, joe, you haven't been listening to me. you need to get off your -- stop christmas shopping. >> you are telling me, mika. >> mm-hmm. >> that the fbi warned them. >> yeah. >> that those russians were trying to infiltrate their campaign and if they saw something or heard anything happening. >> they had the opportunity askew to pass it on. are you telling me they had already had a meeting with all those russian, they had like 14 interpreters in there. >> so the reaction could have been, gosh darn it, we just had a meeting just like that, why don't you tell you all ab it. instead by the time of the warning in late july/august, 17 campaign officials had been in contact with russia as we just said, according to public reports. there is no public evidence the campaign reported any of that to the fbi. >> i'm just a dumb country lawyer, carol lee. >> wouldn't you bring it up? >> that doesn't sound good. now i hear are you the reporter of all these stories. >> you got this stuff down. so can you tell us? because we're confused, did the warning come before or after all those russians crammed into donald jr.'s office and he was all giggly about it? >> this would have been after. >> no, i never saw that coming. so tell us everything about your reporting. >> reporter: well, look, this is a briefing that under normal circumstances is relatively standard. both candidates got this briefing. it's essentially saying, hey, now are you the nominee. our government adversaries will try to infiltrate your campaign. there is concerns about espionage. here's what that might look like. here's what you should do if you see anything that looks suspicious, report it to the fbi. we know that candidate then trump was there for the briefing t. person said in response to this story. they maintain that president trump had no idea that his campaign officials were having contacts with the russians, but it's not clear, you know, if he then, this was passed on stho everybody else in the campaign, that anybody else told the fbi, it wasn't just the contacts before the briefing, but there were contacts after this briefing. you remember the direct messages between don jr. and wikileaks, for instance, and things like. that it raises a lot of questions, obviously, it has an amount of snefx, in the brief tack president clinton got. this is when they got information no the election that caused collusion. >> you would think they mentioned it. maybe they did mention it. >> sam, we are obviously concerned about the trump team not understanding the significance of this or if they understand the significance, not reporting it to the fbi, not working with the fbi. also every time a story like this comes up it casts a dim light on the obama administration. just time and time again say, wait a second, so you had the fbi going and warning the campaigns, you knew about this, democrats like to say, oh, mitch mcconnell tried to make it partisan, it was a horrible, horrible thing for mitch mcconnell to do. i'm i'm the president of the united states, i'd say screw my opinion mcconnell, i'd want everyone to know the russians are trying to subvert american democracy. >> yeah. that's absolutely true. there was a general sense within the obama administration that this would almost take care of itself. hillary was going to win. if you raise these concerns in advance, you may cause a raucus. why do that anyway, if retrospect, that was a dumb speculation. you hamper the voting booth, state election sites, obviously subterfuge and propaganda, that's happening online. the clear attempts the russians were making with the trump campaign. there was enough smoke there to declare, hey, guys, there's a fire. yet they didn't do it t. one time they did do it was the same day that the billy bush tape ras released. >> where is billy bush? >> so, richard, we'll get back to willie. billy bush, a full and complete pardon. >> totally. no, he just laughed while the president grabbed him in the crotch. >> billy is making a comeback. >> okay. >> that happened. listen to the tape. >> oh just stop. >> what did you take last night? >> no, listen to the tape. >> we have been talking about the past. we have been talking about donald trump. we have been talking about the obama administration what they did not, do richard. more relevant to us today is what's happening in the future and sadly we have a russian government that is trying to influence elections in germany and france and the united states, across western democracies, we have a trend. we have pattern. we have some very disturbing information from 2016. but isn't the evidence that the united states government, that donald trump's administration is doing what it's required to stop them from hacking the 2018 elections and the 2020 elections? >> no, it's worse than that. all you have is a russian government that's not only interfering with elections here and elsewhere. this is an election government that has essentially become a spoiler. they have become an outsider, an outlier. they want to over turn everything, whether it's in the middle east, democratic elections. we have responded to what they've done. so there is no deterrence of what they'd like to in the future. we've essentially given them a pass on the aggression forms of destabilization in the world. >> what's so crazy, it's so cheap. they don't have to spend that much money to korea it this much chaos. >> especially if you have a president in donald trump that denies the truth. >> oh yeah. >> that gives them free reign, even though he knows they were trying to influence the election before. he said, no, they didn't influence the election. of course, he's not affecting his people. mike pomp peo going out -- >> there has been rumors, this isn't implemented. this is months an months away. there is no price they're paying for it. >> church little's famous comment, it's a mystery wrapped in enigma. >> that applies to this administration. after two years, what is motivatpoet rate ising, motivating, what has been a space a single question in american politics. >> carol lee, who was in the meeting from the trump side? i know the president was in the counterintelligence briefing, who else was in it? the second part, it strikes me as i read the report the cia had talked before these meetings saying we are seeing contacts between russia and the campaign. james comey launched it that summer. >> that came before those briefings, in other words, they knew they had reaped out to russia, gave them a chance to talk about it t. campaign did not. >> reporter: well, first, willie, we don't know exactly who else was in the meeting. you know, obviously, the candidate trump was in the meeting. if you look at who was typically around him when he would have national security briefings like this, it was largely michael flynn and chris christie, another pen who had clearances to be a part of briefings like this. we don't know who was with candidate trump at the time. what was your second question? >> just that the fbi already knew going into that meeting, because they had already been told the campaign was talking to the russians. they knew the answers to the questions they were asking. >> right. that's what's so extraordinary about this whole, this moment and you know everything we've seen if terms of their being an investigation and there being the republican nominee. everyone was in sort of unchartered territory at this stage. but there was an awareness, the investigation was beginning at that time. the other thing i would point out, when we heard from trump officials over and over again, whenever things are brought up about contacts with russia during campaign, the question of collusion and reporting them. we didn't know any better, what did we know? the fact that they had this warning, you know, during campaign, suggests that, you know, that's not necessarily the best excuse, they were told this would be something that was unusual and they should look out for and so, you know, to hear them say, repeatedly, they didn't know anything, they were just bumpkins on their first campaign, this calls that into question. >> then there is the immediate future the impact t. front page of the washington post. trump team to press mueller. there is a meeting against ty cobb and the special prosecutors people, bob mueller's people. this is a never ending investigation. they are not going to go in there later this week and ask for and get from mueller's team, the idea that this investigation will end quickly. >> this is exactly what he was trying to do with james comey, which got him, bob mueller, got him the trouble he had got, if he had not pressed comey, let comey do his job. chances are good the first national security adviser wouldn't have already pleaded guilty and his campaign manager wouldn't, you know. >> the timeline of carole's story is rife with questions that i'm sure has been asked or without answers being provided, i would assume. but it's august when they get the warning, when president trump gets the warning and the security briefing. >> yeah. >> now, did he hear of any prior meetings between his sons and the russians at trump tower by then? >> it's a closely held campaign. there is no way they are meeting with anybody, fought knowing within that time period force way. there is no prosecution rests. >> can you see in carole's reporting the beginning of the trump defense in all this, which is president trump himself, candidate trump, himself, did not know about the candidates. this may have been happening beneath him. he didn't know about it. . that's the defense they have. >> we will talk about this a lot more. we have great gifts this morning, moving on, two weeks ago, 35 senators called on al franken to resign over multiple independent claims of groping and forced kissing. now one senior democrat reskinned that demand and others are reportedly reconsidering their position after this plea by west virginia's joe manchin who refused to join the chorus. >> what they did to al was atrocious the democrats the most hypocritical thing i've seen done to a human being and having sit on the floor, watch him give his speech, go hug him. that's a hypocrisy at any level of my life. it made me sick. here's a man that said take me through the ethics committee. ly live by whatever decision and walk away thanking this opportunity i've had while i was here. you find out few think i'm a predator. he says, i have a lot of faults, this is not one of them. i think it's atrocious. they had enough guts, enough conscience and enough heart to say, al, we made a mistake to ask prematurely for you to leave. would you subject yourself to a rigorous ethics examination, an ethics investigation and live by whatever comes out and then we'll put the vote on you, al. that's what they should do. >> that itself human and decent thing to do. if they have any decency in them, they'd do that. every one of them would do that, including chuck schumer, should do that. >> now senator leahy of vermont called for the resignation says he regrets the decision. a spokesman for langford declined to comment you, pointed to the previous comments urging the ethics process concede. this sentiment shared by several republican senators from the outset, including my opinion mcconnell, who initially said, quote, the ethics committee should review the matter and senator bill cassidy said franken, quote, did not have to quit, lamenting a lack of due process. according to politico, those familiar with franken's thinking saying he is not considering his decision to resign, the minnesota governor is already named tina smith at 16 franken, who said she intends to run next november to complete franken's term smr do you know, mike, when are you in a situation that has a real opportunity to run, go askew, when there are elements out there who see the words due process as inconvenient. you will see due process as dirty words. you see due process of getting in their way of whatever campaign they're running or whatever mission they are on him al franken said from the very beginning. you know what, voluntarily, let's take this through the senate ethics committee. let's have a bipartisan investigation and i will abide by whatever comes to that. >> and his own friends rat him out. >> ran him over for political convenience and somebody who, i don't know, found jesus, 17 years after kissing up to the clintons suddenly is the one leading the charge, of course, i -- >> i understand it. >> -- i actually -- i understand it, unfortunately. i actually like kirsten gillibrand. >> me too. >> i ask a question of everybody at this table and everybody watching that can hear me. does anybody believe kirsten jill brand's decision on the clintons whoob it was today if hillary clinton had been elected the president of the united states? >> would al franken be working? >> al franken would be senator and kirsten gillibrand who rode in the clinton's wake for decades would still be riding on that wake right now. let's just move that to the side, because everybody knows that's true. >> actually, i'd like this address that, go ahead. >> but, mike, what's wrong with al franken getting due process and actually going through the hearings that eb said they were going to go through until there was sort of a political stampede? >> we all know the bitter truth surrounding what happened to al, truth. i think we all know it. and it has less to do with due process and more to do with alabama. >> amen. >> there you go. >> that's it. i mean, they had to get him off the scene. they had to get him to resign in order to continue to assault legitimately so the complete nut case running for the united states senate as a republican in alabama. >> i think alabama could have been won without al franken resigning. i'm not sure if al franken should have resigned. i would have liked to find out. there was a lot of debate. got a lot of hateful reaction on twitter about, well, there is evidence with franken. i think the evidence is hang on there, calm down. is debatable. i think we have to look at all the facts and i think we have to look at the accusations and, yes, at times, you have to look at the accusers. you have to try and say, oh, wait a minute. that's what happens when you have due process. >> right. >> that's what happens when you have something that's investigated and researched and, oh, wait a minute, are we the judge and the jury? and the cops? are women the judge, the jury and the cops? is that where we want to go? because i don't see us getting hired, if that's the case somerset we need to figure out a better what toy get rid of harassers, real harassers. we need to think of a better what i to deal with people who need to be educated t. rules are changing, that's great. let's be fair in this process and as far as kirsten jill brand is concerned. i think that she's an incredible talent. i think that there is a chance she'll run for president some day. i think i might support her. >> right. >> she has to deal with her clinton issue. she has to address the cameras and answer the question as to what had, what was the motivation behind her change of opinion about the clintons? because for me, for the ten years that i have been on this show, i have been extremely critical and concerned about the clinton because of their abuse of women. i don't know how your position could change on this, i'd like to know about that process, i'm sure it's a fair process. >> what else was out there that changed other than hillary clinton losing and the clintons for the first time in 25 years being out of power of some sort? >> i just want to understand how you got there. >> again we go back to what barry white said, fork times, she wa -- "new york times," she wants to be on the process, instead of mob rule. so what is the problem without having due process and having a hearing, for not just al franken, for many more democrats whose names are surely to come up in the coming weeks and months. >> when this was all happening and unfolding and we were reporting this out, there was in real time discomfort with what was happening the franken set. assuredly, there are people sitting in office, including the united states senate who have done worse than franken. it's by the grace of god they would be exposed. now they would be run out t. question is, what is the impeachable offense? what is the line you have to cross. >> who is to say? >> who is to say? >> so with franken as we reported "new york times," his issue was it was a continuous drip of revelation, it wasn't one or two, it ended up being seven or ache. by the eighth time, people said enough is enough. why is it the eighth time? should it have been the tenth, the 12th? >> are they all crushed out? >> what is due process? is it voters weighing in, the colleagues weighing in? the ethics weighing in. should roy moore have stepped out or the judicial body allowed to decide if his issues were problematic. these are incredibly difficult answers in the united states senate or honestly a society at large. >> but they can give him due process and they can give republicans in the future due pros sechlts and they can say who is your accuser? who wha is your accuser saying you have done? let's investigate that. how does this stack up? and even if they at the end of the day decide to censure or expel or leave it to the voters of minnesota or alabama or kansas or whatever state, that's actually the best thing to do. it's called due process. we have it for a reason. but we, the reason it gets whipped aside with al franken, alabama. >> there is no question about it. >> there is no question about it. >> they wouldn't have done it if the governor of minnesota was a republican. >> exactly. if the governor had been a republican of minnesota, al franken. >> there is no way he still would be there. >> kirsten jill brand, this is a small group of people that said, maybe you ought to come back. it's so clear and cynical, as pike said, they got past roy moore. so that side-by-side comparison is gone. >> i want to talk about the women accusing al franken. >> i'm not. i'm talking about the senators and their position, suddenly, they think, get on back here you old rascal a. couple weeks ago, we had members of congress come on, say, why not go through the ethics process? the answer is the process is flawed. it favors members of congress. >> that may well be true. it's the process you got. you don't throw out due process. >> the process is what we need to talk about be every the men. the process needs to be, it's going to be complicated but i think women feel that they are ma lined and mistreated through the process, therefore, they feel they hate to step forward. we need to look at the process. right now any woman can say anything and a man's career is ruined. now, a lot of women can say things that are true and their careers should be ruined. >> by the way. >> the problem is. >> hold on. >> any women can say anything and that's it, it's over. is that how we are running businesses now? >> there is a reporter woes name i will not mention, a very good reporter who was called in, was not told what he was accused of by an anonymous person and he was immediately dismissed. not only do you get to face your accuser? in this case, you don't know what the charges are against you, when you hire a lawyer, you can't defend yourself. again, if this is where this movement takes us, this is very dangerous, not just dangerous for men. this is dangerous for everybody. >> this is why the solution is in open door policies in ways that prevent these types of things from happening. it's why we have to look at how we do business him we have to make hard changes and pull back a little bit. some of the ideas i had in the path seemed like elizabethen times, we have to prevent the possibility. instead of the hr office, you are cowering in there, you don't want to see your face, you think no one will believe you. that's a problem. i understand what women face here. i am also stricken, i am child by some of the cases i am seeing now of people being run out of their jobs, bankrupted and absolutely no due process. >> i would say again, i'll go back, whatever the movement is. whatever the cause is, if you think it is bigger than due process, giving people an opportunity to be heard and making sure that people, i know there are some people that say, well, you know what, if some people get destroyed, if their lives get destroyed, that's a small thing. >> i know if someone could say, hey, someone touched me inappropriately. >> it's an atmosphere of women coming forward. it's a problem. >> what happens 20 years from now, sam, where somebody says, i work with sam stein at the huffington post. we were having drinks, he put his hand on my leg. what happens in this environment, 20 years from now you are fired? >> say i work at the daily beast. >> exactly. when you started at the huffington post that's the voormt we are in now. >> in a swimming pod. >> i agree that there is a really difficult problem here of due process, it needs to be, whoever is accused needs to have their point heard and the ability to face their accusers, which is due process, the essential elements of due process. i worry and i want to make sure like that you allow an environment where the actual victims here are still able come forward and say, this happened. this is difficult. without al -- the problem with al in the end was that he had a series of incidents where he was grabbing people's butts in this way. >> that doesn't say he should get due process. >> is there a pick of that? >> he admitted. >> the problem with al is all making, now the secondary problem was, what happens when those things come out into the foray, in that case, al did deserve to have, i keep calling him al. senator franken did deserve to have due process. let's not act like the system screwed him. he screwed himself, that's all i'm saying. >> mika, by the way, we're at 6:30. this is our first block. we have broken a record. >> we have to continue this. >> very proud we have broken a record. >> hold that thought. i'm talking about a transparent work place so we don't have. that we'll get there. still ahead on "morning joe," congress is on the verge of passing tax reform, despite finding another poll deeply unpopular, plus, donald trump lays out a national security strategy almost a year into his presidency. did we learn anything new? i went to two parties over the weekend, where i was told by men and women, they don't want to hire women anymore. so this is an important conversation. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. all right, a brief continuation of this conversation. carol lee, chime in. we're debating due process/trance parent work place/politics brigg down sometimes good people who don't get a fair chance. >> yeah, what i was thinking about as i was tloins you all talk, have you the country's top elected official was had an opportunity essentially with al franken to set an example and lead the country in this debate that everybody is having by perhaps implementing some sort of policy allowing this to go through, some sort of due process to answer all of these very tough questions and instead what you saw is the country's leadership essentially make a very politically expedient decision now having some sort of buyer's repercent, as a result nobody else has any sort of direction on how some of the country's top officials might suggest people hand him these tough questions and you are going to see more and more people come out with facing allegations and there is no process soond it seee/* -- and it seems like it should be extended. >> there should have been a process, kirsten gillibrand on the forefront with al franken, it unfortunately sets her up for a lot of criticism since she worked for so many years alongside and within the clinton bubble and in support of hillary clinton and getting support from bill clinton who she now conveniently says, should have stepped down for sexually harassing an intern in the white house among other things. it all just seems political. it all just seems kind of dirty and hypocritical instead of an opportunity to really shine the line on perhaps some behaviors that might have been send even five years ago that we no longer accept today. >> that would have been a great conversation and we were not able to have it. >> carol lee. >> reporter: yes, yeah, i think that's exactly right. you can't help -- and this is what people in the country can't stand. >> right. >> reporter: have you the democrats that say al franken has to resign, now everyone is like, maybe he shouldn't have had to resign, there is this buyer's remorse, what do you stand for? what is your position? if anything, i think people appreciate somebody who has had the conviction and make sticks with what their position is, and what you are seeing now is this sort of wishy washy flip-floppy and out of that is no leadership. you can't see where the leadership is here. >> we get to pick and choose our leaders, bill clinton what he did isn't as bad, he is bill clinton. >> the things you'd like to see implement itself and have been talking about for quite some time are all necessary. but this is a national discussion. it's not a debate. it involves far more than people like al franken, bill clinton, kristen jill brand. it involves nurses, women who feel threatened, coerced, intimidated, sometimes on their job sites, that ought not to be. we should have a national discussion about it. and we are having a national discussion about it. hopefully, improvements will come quickly they are long overdue, but when you have reached an initial stage in this early part of the discussion, with the mere mention of your name as a guy in the paper linked to sexual harassment, it means the end of your career, the end of your income opportunities, in essence, the end of a critical part of your life. we've got to stop and wonder, okay, what are we doing here, we got to as a news business, separate the harvey weinsteins from people accused. >> the glen thrushes. >> yes, thank you. >> that's bad date, glen thrush. >> you know this weekend, mika, you had talked about, you said you had been to a couple of events. >> yeah. >> you had men and women saying they all say, a lot of them, i'm talking about leaders in business and. >> the talk of the top. >> what you said reminded me of what chris hayes tweeted last night, which was for everybody that thinks there is a huge disconnect between what people say on twitter and what they say out here in the real world. >> yeah. >> this discussion is one of the greatest examples of that, on twitter, it's all. >> very ugly. >> get the torches. it's, you know, shoot first, let god sort them out. that's not what you hear any e when you were off of twitter. you were talking about it this weekend. >> i'm worried t. conversation was, how do we take this movement into a real discussion, into real change, into real sort of consulting with different industries to help women go into a safe process, if they feel they were harassed, but to set up work places where it's presented. maybe redesign the rules. maybe some things don't happen the way they used to. maybe that is too ricky. i had written a blog on it on think with my own thoughts ab it. but the bottom line is, what's happening now is such an over reach that you are going to have men and women thinking, you know what, i don't want to take the risk. if i have women in my office, they could say anything and there's no due process. we can't. that's not going to work for women. i understand and believe in the women. i understand that, in a number of the cases of sexual harassment that have come across this desk literally, i've spoken to the accusers, i've spoken to the harassers. i've seen from both sides the same story. that's why i believe the women. in some of the other cases, i look at both sides of the story, i am uncomfortable with the outcome, with a man being run out of time. >> which is why we should have due process, another thing, mika, you have told me in talking to other women executives, sam was saying off camera, that you have herd of people saying the whole idea of women on business trips. >> don't forget it. >> mika had a top business leader not only in america, in the world say, if this was the environment back when i was 30, starting to move towards management, i would have never been taken on a business trip. i would have never been taken to lunch. i would have never been, whatever. >> and she wouldn't be where she is today. >> she goes, she said the guys, of course, keep going golfing. it would be patently unfair. we as with imif industry have to figure out a way to protect our own, who ill making sure it doesn't get in our way of our advancement. >> we're at a tipping point, where you can see one of two paths happen. one is to create a wholistic system, you try i to build a structure, where you can have due structure, with the stories of the accused. the other is basically cordoned off. do endobusiness trips, don't do the dinners, have closed off meetings, all that stuff. >> honestly, it's difficult to see the way we go. i think the one easy, not easy the one way where we can get to a better place, it's pretty dam simple is have more women if top ranking checktive positions. >> it's happening. >> it should happen, it's happening more to reflect the demographics and the dynamics of the society. >> if we can get there, i think we will make progress. >> coming up, the trump judicial nominee, who went viral. i actually felt sorry for this guy. he withdrew his nomination. >> oh. >> it was just fought going to happen. >> he shouldn't have. >> that story ahead including the "my cousin vinney" connection. "morning joe" is coming right back. the great emperor penguin migration. trekking a hundred miles inland to their breeding grounds. except for these two fellows. this time next year, we're gonna be sitting on an egg. i think we're getting close! make a u-turn... u-turn? recalculating... man, we are never gonna breed. just give it a second. you will arrive in 92 days. nah, nuh-uh. nope, nope, nope. you know who i'm gonna follow? my instincts. as long as gps can still get you lost, you can count on geico saving folks money. i'm breeding, man. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. have any of you not tried a case to verdict in a courtroom? >> have you ever tried a jury trial? >> i have not. >> civil? >> no. >> criminal? >> no. >> bench? >> no. >> state or federal court? >> i have not. >> have you ever argued a motion in state court? >> i have not. >> have you ever argued a motion in federal court? >> no. >> just froerd, do you know what a motion in limine is? >> i would fought be able to give youance answer at the table. >> do you know what the pullman abstention doctrine? you see all that online in federal court. >> it's a viral moment last week when during his hearing matthew peterson couldn't answer some bake questions posed by republican senator kennedy him let me stop right here. i actually felt sorry for him. >> i did, too. >> it's a process for him. >> awful. >> the fact is the man was a lawyer. he obviously was not qualified to be a federal judge? >> yeah. >> but he wasn't the person that put him in that chair. >> no. >> that was don mcgan at the white house and donald trump and that was the white house. so, again, i actually feel bad for the man and have so many questions about why the white house is sending the people to the senate that they're sending for federal judgeships. this is sick. >> well. >> i mean, look at the other guy that was a ghost buster. and others. >> because of him? >> others that put some really offensive stuff up. by the way. >> ghost busters. >> are we going to talk about the ufo stories? >> yeah. >> they had white house has now confirmed that peterson has withdrawn his name from consideration yesterday. >> the ufo is here and turns up like this. >> kennedy had this to say about the exchange. >> just because you've seen my cousin vinny doesn't qualify you to be a federal judge, and he has no litigation experience, and my job on the judiciary committee is to catch him. >> so he's not going to be a judge? >> i would strongly suggest he not give up his day job. he said kennedy, when some of my guys send somebody over there who's not qualified, get me a job. >> get me off the short list. >> i know. i've seen it three times. apparently that's not enough anymore. i'll do a little study. >> senator kennedy did a good job in the hearing, obviously, assessing this out. after this she was funny. he said peterson is smart and has worked in public service for 20 years. this is just the wrong job for him and he never should have been in that chair. >> kennedy's, the message he was sending was not to peterson. it was to don mcgab. he served on the with peterson. mcgann's chief of staff is the wife of ghost chaser extraordinary. >> are you kidding me? this guy sent the ghost buster? >> there is frustration. >> who never tried a case out of here, out of practice for three years in. >> this what's happening. >> what you going to call? don mcgann's friends. >> this is a source of incredible frustration on the hill where the senators are saying you are sending us cro cronies of don. people are are unqualified but they know don mcgancgann, and kennedy new matthew peterson never tried a case. and kennedy asked the question and let matthew peterson hang himself. >> let the stories speak for themselves. >> we'll be right back in washington bureau chief for the new york times elizabeth miller. >> she's very good. very talented. >> now do your clients plead? >> the federal rules of evidence all the through -- >> my clients are caught completely by surprise. >> i don't have that readily at my disposal. >> what are you telling me? >> i'm, again, my background is not in litigation. >> i don't want to hear explanations. >> for the record, do you know what a motion in liminie is? >> i would not be able to give you a good definition at the table. i've heard of it. >> this seems to be a great deal of confusion here. >> you all see that a lot in federal court? >> once again, the communication process has broken down. ♪ this holiday, the real gift isn't what's inside the box. it's what's inside the person who opens it. ♪ give ancestrydna, the only dna test that can trace your origins to over 150 ethnic regions... ♪ ...and open up a world of possibilities. ♪ save 20% for the holidays at ancestrydna.com. bp is taking safety glasses to a whole new level. using augmented reality so engineers in the field can share data and get expert backup in the blink of an eye. because safety is never being satisfied and always working to be better. every truck guy has their own way of conveying powerful. yeeaaahhh boy. kind of looks like a monster coming to eat ya. holy smokes. that is awesome. strong. you got the basic, and you got the beefy. i just think it looks mean. incredible. no way. i'm getting goosebumps. this holiday season, become part of the chevy family. use your employee discount for everyone and trade up to this silverado all star to get a total value of over eleven thousand dollars. find new roads at your local chevy dealer. so listen. here's the deal. we're issue. >> maybe you could tell us on twitter. >> here's the deal. if you could go to --@morni to --@morningmika on twitter and just hash tag mika christmas movies. they don't have to be christmas movies. >> we're going to binge. >> mika has not seen any movies. >> we have "my cousin vinny". i could cry "wedding crashers" again. >> do the will ferrell. >> we don't we hash tag this mikamovies. >> i've seen "grease". >> she has not seen "the god father" or any of the "star wars." >> the president's national security speech, "morning joe" is coming right back. is in ful. 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"50 first dates". >> how about "40-year-old virgin"? >> i don't think you'd like it. >> "casablanca". and somebody says look at this, mika is the chicken lady. >> that, i am. and we will be bringing chickens in to watch with us. it's tuesday, december 19th. with us we have -- i walked out of "pulp fiction", and i also walked out of "deliverance". >> great movie, but there's a lot in there. >> that's not a great movie. >> somebody, i got to say, over the weekend i saw -- i was going through the channels, and i actually had sort of a down saturday for once. >> i walked out. >> "die hard" came on. the original. if allen ritman, and i remember, i said that guy, i don't know who he is, that may be the best villian i've ever seen. >> hanz gruber. >> there's lights. >> by definition. >> "the big chill"? >> i watched "home alone" the other day, and the pain inflicted on bandits would have killed anybody. they had paint cans dropped on their faces. >> we talked about "die hard" where bruce willis would have died died 38 times. >> and home alone 2, they did it again, lost their child again. >> i wonder who that's happened to? >> mika, you've been lost in new york city. >> i was in time square, they lost me. santa saved me. >> you're the inspiration for the movie. >> her parents, they left you in new york. >> for half an hour. >> they left you at the top of a ski slope. >> yeah, but that's okay. you got to find your way down and be tough. >> and then they left you in france when you got kidnapped. >> that's true. >> let my daughter go -- >> i seriously was kidnapped in france. that really happened. >> you didn't get lost in new york city? >> i did. >> what about the ski slope? >> that happened too. >> they just want noed me to ge down myself. >> with us politics editor for the daily beast sam stein. richard haas, analyst for nbc news, wauns ratte, carol lee, and new york times washington pure row chi bureau chief, elizabeth. >> elizabeth, i know you love the movie discussion. the brzezinskis kept mika in a bubble. >> that's all right. >> do you have a christmas suggestion for mika? she's going to watch a lot of movies over the holidays. >> "miracle on 34th street". >> the onlial oiay original one? >> right. donald trump spoke at the ronald reagan building and international trade center. he outlined the world vision while calling out what he sees as the failures of past administrations. >> for many years our citizens watched as washington politicians presided over one disappointment after another. our leaders in washington negotiated disastrous trade deals. there was nation building abroad while they failed to build up and replenish our nation at home. they undercut and short-changed our men and women in uniform. they failed to insist that our often very wealthy allies pay their fair share for defense. they neglected a nuclear menace in north korea, made a disastrous week and bad deal with iran. they surrendered our sovereignty to foreign bureaucrats in far away and distant capitals. our leaders drifted from american principles. they lost sight of america's destiny. america is in the game and america is going to win. our strategy advances for vital interests. first, we must protect the american people. the homeland, and our great american way of life. this strategy recognizes that we cannot secure a nation if we do not secure our borders. the second pillar of our strategy is to promote american prosper prosperity f. for the first time economy security is national security and that's recognized. the third pillar is to reserve peace through strength. we recognize that weakness is the surest path to conflict, and unrivalled power is the most certain means of defense. fourth and finally, our strategy is to advance american influence in the world. this begins with building up our wealth and power at home. >> richard haas, break it down for us. what was different and what was borrowed from past administrations? >> well he tried to differentiate himself. the talk of transforming the world to bring democracy to the middle east. he wasn't talking about bringing china or russia into the international community at all. tough language on that. big emphasis on protecting the homeland. close it off to immigration and refugees not interested in trade. be the biggest problem was it was not that far out. it's the gap between the document and his own forbe policy. you have things like saying national debt is a grave threat to the united states, but now today we're going to pass a tax bill that will exacerbate it by 1.5 million. it talks about the importance of diplomacy. this is an administration that boycotted the migration meeting, is gutting the state department. it talks about how important it is to be tough on russia. talks about russia as a revisionist power, talks about the danger that russia poses by interfering in the domestic politics of western countries. that's at variance with the policy of the trump administration. it's very tough on china, but the first thing this administration did was what? it got out of tpp. that was principle instrument it inherited in order to push back against china's reach in the region. the document is not that far outside the foreign policy mainstream. the problem is the gap between donald trump's document and donald trump's foreign policy. >> elizabeth, what was your take away from the president's speech yesterday? >> i would agree with richard. what's striking is it was tough on russia as well as china. as you noticed in the president's speech, he was not tough on russia. he praised vladimir putin for helping for calling him the other day because the cia helped russia thwart a terrorist attack in st. petersburg. he made no mention of russian intervention in the election even though the document does. we're seeing a document that's pretty much in the mainstream. it's a dark document talking about the return of great power and competition which was an sent from other documents previous the administrations. but trump's speech and his tweet driven presidency does not coincide with the policy in the document. >> so one, if you listen to the speech, the president went through a litany of mistakes the previous administrations have made neglected north korea, the iran deal. what is different about what he said yesterday in terms of an american foreign policy view from the previous administration. >> well, i was there yesterday, and listened to the speech. i agree the speech was a disconnect from the document itself. i think it's an ambition document, and part of what's different is this notion that you do have two great powers trying to rewrite the rules of the international order. i think that is fundamentally different here in that the president is trying to lay out that we're in a grand competition. competition militarily, economically, and the document tries to then lay it out. one thing that's different and the president pointed this out, looking at economic security broadly. this idea that china, russia, and other powers state and nonstate are actually trying to undermine u.s. influence and power. so that's why the document gets into things like energy dominance, the protection of the innovation base, protecting end lek chul property. i think it's a much more aggressive tone. how does it mesh with what's happen and how do we advance u.s. interest when it appears to the world we're withdrawing in many ways from the transpacific trade partnership, and is the world ready to deal with us on a transactional basis. the president says we'll deal with the world but it has to be on fair terms. if we're trying to push back against great powers and trying to deal in the cyber do main as well as the physical domain, you need friends. you can't alienate them while you deal with hard problems. >> that's right. this is a dark view of the world. the interesting statement is it gives up on the idea that's shaped american foreign policy for 25 years. we're going to build a post cold war world with russia and china. very dark. but it disarms. what we've done is we've added all sorts of conditions to our alliance relationships in europe and asia and so forth. there's a disconnect. it's a very dark view. but at the end, it doesn't make available to ourselves what we need to do in order to implement a strategy to pushback against the china and russia that this document describes which, by the way, is not the china and russia that mr. trump talks about. he constantly talks about his relationships and how good they are with the leaders and the document poses a different view. you wonder is this the document of the interagency community of hr mcmaster and others to what extent is the document of the president -- i worked were four presidents. i had never been in a meeting in four administrations where someone said we have to do this or we can't do that because of our national security strategy. i don't think necessarily this is a document that's a guide post or the piebl for this administration. >> right. it's like party platforms at conventions. elizabeth, this just comes at the worst of all possible times. we've been talking about rise in china for 20 years. but we are seeing it every day. the chinese first of all, clamping down at home at the same time they're doing everything they can to extend their power across the globe with open arms, trying to get as many trading deals with as many of their allies and adversaries as possible. >> and, well, but as we've said, the president has withdrawn from the transpacific partnership which was our principle vehicle for challenging china in asia, and we have now seated a lot of territory to china. i think it's interesting in the document, there's no mention of climate change which is completely against the pentagon policy which sees climate change as a national security threat around the world. instead there's talk about energy dominance. it's very odd they came out with this so early. usually administrations wait a couple years before they pull something like this together, and usually the president does not himself announce it. we're told that the trump looked at the document and got excited about it and wanted to speak about it. that's what we have yesterday. >> all right. there is new reporting from nbc news revealing that in high level counterintelligence briefings, during the summer of 2016, the fbi warned then candidate donald trump that russians might try to infiltrate his campaign. citing multiple government officials familiar with the matter, the report says the warnings were timed to occur around the period when the candidates began receiving classified intelligence which put them at greater risk for being targeted by foreign spies. trump was briefed and warned at a session on august 17th, 2016, about potential espionage threats from russia. two people familiar with sessions told nbc news. hillary clinton got a similar briefing and the candidates were urged to alert the fbi about any suspicious overtures to their campaigns. by the time of the warning in late july or august, at least seven trump campaign officials had been in contact with russians or people linked to russia according to public reports. there is no public evidence the campaign reported any of that to the fbi. but it's unclear whether the warning about russia was passed onto other campaign officials. >> but carol lee, the people that were in the don junior meeting included, of course, jared kushner who is the de facto leader of the campaign. paul manafort who was the actual campaign manager, don junior, and a host of others. >> right. and if you -- that meeting took place shortly before the briefing would have happened. what's significant is yes, both candidates received similar briefings where they were told there's foreign governments including russia who are going to try to infiltrate your campaign and try to spy. here's what to look out for. let us know if you see anything suspicious. contact the fbi. what we know is president trump's campaign had a number of contacts with russian officials both before this briefing and then after this briefing. and there's no evidence that any of that was reported to the fbi as these officials told the campaign to do. and so it raises a number of questions about why weren't they notified about these previous meetings and all these contacts that we keep learning about either before or after the campaign, and so it's another piece of this puzzle that puts into context what was happening, what the campaign was aware of at this time, and it turns out that they actually knew this was a possibility and that their defense that they didn't know about this was their first campaign and they didn't have any idea of how to run things. they were warned about this. >> the cia briefed the fbi before this took place and said we're seeing contacts between the trump campaign and russians. when the fbi gave the briefing, they knew there has been contact in the campaign. you're saying be careful, watch out, you're giving the campaign an opportunity to say don junior had a meeting a month ago at trump tower, and they're not offering that information. what are you thinking as an fbi agent? >> well, i think you're very worried, obviously. i think you're also worried about maybe an inexperienced campaign. we have to remember that was a campaign that wasn't big or well organized or stocked with veterans of the intel community. i would be thinking you've got to be very concerned and worries because there are vulnerabilities on the cyber domain and in terms of information attacks. you have vulnerabilities physically. so i'm worried that the campaign not be aware of that. and secondly, i want to make sure i have a line of communication with a campaign and all elements of the campaign that matter. it's not clear to me that the campaign was well organized enough to sort of strategize around how they defend against not just the russians but the chinese and others who would likely try to get information and frankly try to influence the campaign as it was developing. so if you're the fbi agent, i think you want as much candor as possible. these are real. these are actors that are serious and they have real capabilities. you have to watch out from a cyber context and the physical context perspective. >> elizabeth? >> what i think this shows is yet again how extensive the contacts were between the trump campaign and russia. every day, every week there's a new revelation. you take them together and what you get is a very different picture than when we started out which was just, again, extensive contacts between senior campaign officials with russian officials some intel officials. and it's a very, very, if you put it together, it's very, very striking about how deep the contacts were. >> elizabeth, carol, juan, thank you for being on the show this morning. we have more ahead on the russia investigation. white house lawyers will reportedly meet with special counsel bob mueller's team this week. will they get the news they want? we'll talk to former u.s. attorney, joyce vance. >> hold on a second. so it appears, willie, that mika's movies is trending on twitter now. here we go. let's see what we have. "the producers". "the family stone" "love actually". >> whenever you try to show me that one, you cry like a baby. "pretty woman". "smokey and the bandit". >> i would put in "minority report"? >> great book and movie. >> "imitation game". >> if you don't start with "coming to america" i'll be so disappointed? >> mika, have you seen "top gun" yet? >> no. is that with little tom cruise? >> oh, come on. don't pull out the donald trump stuff. >> i thought that was how we normally talked about people these days. we learn everything from the great president of the united states. >> when he buzzes the tower, and negative ghost rider, the pattern is full, and he still buzzes the tower. >> we'll be right back. my dad's. grandma's. aunt stacy's. what are the reasons you care for your heart? qunol coq10 with 3x better absorption has the #1 cardiologist recommended form of coq10 to support heart health. qunol, the better coq10. we cut the price of trades to give investors even more value. and at $4.95, you can trade with a clear advantage. fidelity, where smarter investors will always be. and at $4.95, you can trade with a clear advantage. at bp, everyone on an offshore rig depends on one another. that's why entire teams train together in simulators, to know exactly what to do before they have to do it. because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. when i was too busy with the kids to get a repair estimate. liberty did what? yeah, with liberty mutual all i needed to do to get an estimate was snap a photo of the damage and voila! voila! i wish my insurance company had that... wait! hold it... hold it boys... there's supposed to be three of you... where's your brother? where's your brother? hey, where's charlie? charlie?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you. liberty stands with you™ liberty mutual insurance. i think this past weekend is a luster of what a great officer vladimir putin is. he knows how to handle an asset, and that's what he's doing with the president. i'm saying this figuratively. i think we have to remember putin's background. he's a kgb officer. that's what they do. they recruit assets. and i think some of that experience and instincts of putin is coming to play here, and his managing a pretty important account for him, if i could use that term, with our president. >> former director of national intelligence james clapper reacting to president trump's statement after russian president vladimir putin called to thank him for intelligence that he said helped stop a terror attack. president trump's high expectations for an end to the russia investigation could ratchet up tensions between the white house and special council robert mueller. according to washington post the trump legal team is heading to this week's meeting ready to hear about the justice departme department's probe and that the president will be cleared. >> this is the same thing, is it not, that the president kept demanding from james comey? >> yes. >> do they not understand that they keep repeating the same mistakes. >> i don't think he's used to not getting his way. it's that simple. he's used to telling people what to do and then them respecting that. this is a wholly new sensation for him. it's bapartially why he fired james comey. that's why everyone is talking with great nervousness in washington d.c. about the increasing likelihood that he will fire or get to bob mueller himself. >> after what he did, a lot of people around him are most likely going to jail, and chances are good that there may be more coming up because of what he did with james comey that same thing he's trying to do again. >> and people have told him, people close to him have told him the comey decision was a mistake. >> yeah. >> does he learn that lesson? i don't know. >> richard, i want to ask you about the james clapper before we continue. the james clapper interview about donald trump being an asset that vladimir putin is managing. james clapper was not the first person to make that suggestion. >> every once in a while we have to stop and things take your breath away. the idea that the former director of national intelligence would say the president is the asset of a former kgb guy is a stunning moment. only if we're so super numb do we not say holy cow. we're living in a moment that something like that by a responsible person could be said and people just brush it off and go on to the next thing. >> every day as elizabeth mueller said, everything day something else happens that makes us question what does putin have on trump? every single day. something happens that just doesn't make sense. >> no. it's been going on for two years. it's a thread. we don't understand what motivates, what is behind the benign, sanguine, behavior toward russia. and that is at the end of the day, that's not to be got to bed of the road. what explains what can't be explained in other terms. >> you mentioned numbness, the numbness that comes to this every day aspect of this presidency. and it's also exhaustion. again, washington post this morning, trump talked of rescinding gorsuch nomination once he was nominated. the reason it's, the body of the reporting in the story, the reason he was considering rescinding the nomination is he was outraged that neil gorsuch in the conversation with senator blumenthal indicated that he, gorsuch was upset at the president's constant attacks on the federal jush diciary, and t president felt that was disloyal. the level of exhaustion and numbness in this presidency on an everyday basis is incredible. >> meanwhile cnn reports unnamed sources who have spoken with the president say trump seems so convinced of his impending exoneration, he's peling associates robert mueller will soon send a letter clearing. the washington report says people with knowledge say it could last at least another year and members of mueller's team have told others they expect to be working through much of 2018 a minimum. white house lawyers told the president he could be exonerated as early as the beginning of the year after previously reassuring him he would be clear bid thanksgiving and christmas. they plan to ask investigators if they need more information that the probe related to trump is complete according to a person familiar with the trump plan. >> joining us now, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, joyce vance. joyce, good morning. it's great to see you. sift through some of this if you could. the pace, first, of the mueller investigation. we know that he sort of has his blinders on and he's going to keep his head down and do his work however long it takes. >> you know, that's a truth about prosecuters. they don't indict cases before they're ready to be indicted. they don't delay them once they're ready. so the reality here is only bob mueller and his team know where they are in the investigation. but because we're in the christmas season, you can't help but think that what's going on is a lot like toddlers you see in toy stores with their parents and they're screaming and they want their parents to buy them something, and their parents will tell them anything just to get them out of the toy store without making a scene. this presidency feels a little that way as though perhaps the president's lawyers are just really you won't get indicted. please let's leave the toy store. and we know that there was reporting last week about the briefings that the president receives that they try to bury information that they think he'll react poorly to. you have a sense they want him to stay off of twitter. they don't want him to do anything that will be additional evidence bob mueller can use down the road if there is an indictment at some point. >> no one has been successful doing that previously, and he's already had some damming tweets. this question of whether or not he may fire bob mueller used to be a propostrouse idea. people say really, it's donald trump? what would it look like if he did? he can't do it directly. he'd have to get rod rosenstein to do it. he could fire him until he could find somebody that would fire mueller. what would be the implications if he did fire indirectly, bob mueller? >> it's hard for someone to think of this situation rationally and contemplate how the president fires mueller. it would be an admission of guilt, trying to tamp down on the investigation. there is suggestion that the president will be able to pardon people who are closest to him, perhaps to pardon jared or others in his family should they be indicted and that rather than an outright firing of mueller, which we're starting to see indication that that would, i think, lead to an outpouring of people perhaps on the streets certainly of ethics advisers from previous administrations, coming out with strong statements, it would be truly a constitutional catastrophe that none of us really wants to live through and that i don't think this president could survive. >> joyce, on the topic of pardons, yesterday we had a conversation and several people drew the conclusion that the last thing the former national security adviser michael flynn wants is a pardon from donald trump because, actually, he's got a pretty great deal and things can only get worse for him. you also have the possibility that we've heard of several of the people being tried in state courts where donald trump's pardon power doesn't reach them. isn't the power of the pardon significantly reduced now because of the way bob mueller is running this investigation? >> yes. that's absolutely right. because of the state court, the possibility of parallel prosecution, pardon isn't very helpful to many of these people. but something that i think is important for those of us who have been inside of the justice department and who have lived through pardon processes in the past to think about is pardons are typically used in situations where someone who perhaps there's significant evidence that they're innocent but they're out of time for appeal, a pardon is used there. or for someone who receives a very long sentence, perhaps it reduces their sentence. this idea that the pardon is now being used as a favor being given to people who are close to the president is really startling to people who have been in the justice department for years. >> i think also there has been some talk, mika, that the president's power to pardon is not absolute, and if this president pardons only to obstruct investigations, if this president pardons only to let guilty family members or close associates out of jail, or to get them from underneath a sentence, that that will be challenged. that will go to the supreme court, and we may actually see the supreme court ruling that maybe the power to pardon is not absolute. >> the system and all of the rules are being pushed to the limits. >> yeah. >> for sure. joyce vance, thank you so much. >> sam, quit final thought? >> if it goes to the supreme court, we'll get a test of knne gorsuch's loyalty. there are bills to protect robert mueller. and they're going nowhere. and the hill, the people on the hill is acting as if it's inconceivable that donald trump would go down this road. to willie's point, i don't know why anyone at this point in time would think it's inconceivable. >> many say the republican tax bill will increase the deficit without fueling much economic growth. we'll bring in a member of the budget committees, republican congressman, tom cole, next on "morning joe." let's get the big guy in place. the ford year end sales event is here. i can guide you in. no, thanks , santa. i got this. santa: uh, it looks a little tight. perfect fit. santa needs an f-150. that's ford, america's best selling brand. hurry in today for 0% financing for 72 months across the full line up of ford cars, trucks and suvs. for a limited time, get an additional $1,000 cash back on top of 0% financing for 72 months. get these exclusive offers during the ford year end sales event. get these exclusive offers the market.redict but through good times and bad... ...at t. rowe price... ...we've helped our investors stay confident for over 75 years. call us or your advisor. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. pain from chest congestion can make this... when you have a cold, ...feel like this. all-in-one cold symptom relief from tylenol®, the #1 doctor recommended pain relief brand. tylenol®. so the house is set to vote on the republican house plan at 1:30 this afternoon getting closer to a legislative victory this year. the bill is expected to pass and head over to the senate where there is less room for error but also the senate's probably going to pass it as well. there's a new poll out from cnn this morning that shows a majority of americans disapprove of the bill. 55% are against the bill. 33% are for it. a poll found 47% disapprove. the bill is going to end up costing somewhere between 2 and $2.2 trillion, it's estimated. let's meet with a member of the budget committees congressman tom cole. congressman, i'm going to ask you the first couple of blistering questions. i just have to do it. >> at least you gave me a warning. >> i'm giving warning. question one, oklahoma and georgia. how badly do you think the bulldogs beat you guys? >> thank they beat us at all. they're a well balanced team. they're not going to stop the guys. we look forward to playing them. we've never played georgia before. it will be a first. two great teams. we'll move on and see who comes out. >> you don't have to see. that's like saying we're going to see what's going to happen in the morning. alabama will beat clemson, maybe -- >> i like that. we have a winning record against alabama. we don't against clemson. >> we'll see how that goes. that's number one. number two, mika, she had a misspent youth and hasn't watched any movies. it's trending right now, mika's movies. we're asking for suggestions. >> this is a waste of valuable time with tom cole. >> no, i respect tom cole. what movie could you suggest he watches? >> i'll give you two "the darkest hour". that's an amazing movie about winston churchill. the second one is a family favorite. it's about my great aunt. it's a sort of boutique film about an indian performer. not greatly known but a great movie. >> now onto less significant things. tax bill, you're a conservative. i'm a conservative. i'm concerned about debt. you're concerned about debt. we have a $20 trillion debt. it doubled from five to 11 under bush. it doubled from 11 to about 20 under obama. it's going to go from 20 to 30 under trump. this adds anywhere between 1.5 and 2.2 trillion to the national debt. are you comfortable with that? >> well, i'm not comfortable with adding to the national debt ever. i think the numbers are lower. it's about $440 billion over a decade. eventually it pays for itself. under every estimate, it varies which one you read, it speeds up growth. there's parts of this i like. a lot of it. i like doubling the standard deduction. i think that helps people at the bottom end. i like the expanded child tax credit. that's a good thing. frankly, i like the fact that most of the rates are lower. i would have kept the top rate the same and just raised the threshold. and i like the fact that american businesses are going to be more competitive. people forget that president obama favored a cut in the corporate income tax down to 28% and frankly, the chief tax writer on the democracy side said he would favor between 25 and 28. 21 wasn't seem all that unreasonable. >> congressman, what study suggests that this tax bill pays for itself? >> i said outside the ten-year budget window. there's a specific period of time we tend to look at. again, tax foundation has it at less than $500 billion. as you pointed out, i think rightly, the debt -- forget the tax bill for a minute, is going up regardless unless you deal with entitlement reform. when people focus on the tax bill chwhich is a small part of the debt over a decade. i say let's talk act the things that matter, social security, medicare, medicaid. they don't pull in enough money in the taxes they generate to pay for themselves. the income tax pays for all the discretionary spending we have and helps finance some of the mandatory programs. we need to look at the funding streams and make reforms. >> congressman, the president has hail third down tax bill as one of the great achievements of the 21st century. it's going to change middle class lives. let's go to alaska cioklahoma c. who does better under this bill? chesapeake resources or a family of four making act $75,000 a year? >> in my district, i can give you the numbers. pretty close to what you cite. the median income in my district for a family of four is about $73,000. they get about a 2$,000 tax cut. that's a pretty dramatic percentage of the federal taxes they pay, the income tax. that's good. chesapeake and continental both win and lose. that is, they lose some tax credits they've had in the past. called enhanced oil recovery which helps on frankly low yield wells. but they get the corporate income tax, and probably the big win for them is what's called expensing. for the first five years any p capital equipment they buy, they can write off the bottom. that encourages drilling and activity. employs a lot of people. i'm certainly not unhappy that people who are big em employploe going to do well. >> i once bringing the corporate tax down to 28% but not 21%. what evidence do you have the corporations are going to invest that amount. i think it's likely they wouldn't buy back shares, pass it back to people through dividends. what confidence do you have when already most corporations, a lot of manufacturers are at full capacity and don't need to expand? >> i think if each company will make what they think is the best decision for themselves and the shareholders. i don't have any problem with people injecting money in the economy by buying back shares. i mean, that puts the money out there. it's not as if it's not going to be invested. it doesn't disappear into a magic ball. i think it generates activity. if people wanted to hire corporate income tax rate, than if you had for democrats participating in the process, they might have been able to get that. again, look, i've seen a lot of american companies that leave this country. i don't own a lot of stock. two of the 12 companies i own have left the united states. johnson controls and spectra energy to go overseas because of the tax rate. this is a problem that needed to be addressed. we're trying to do that. if we don't hit it right, we'll be back next year. i think this will be a process, not an event. that is, there will be a number of years where there's a lot of activities in ways and means as you try to respond or correct errors you made. >> congressman, you mentioned early on that you want to go and tackle the entietlements. is that the plan? next year to go and do those entitlement reforms after this, and two, how do you respond to the pushback that it seems odd and unfair to give a massive tax cut that geared to corporations. and then to say we need to scale it back? >> i didn't say we needed to scale it back. you can form it a lot of ways. you can gradually raise the age. people are living longer. you can also raise the caps. subject more income to taxation. i think that's part of the solution going forward. we did that by the way, in 1983, the last time we put this thing on sound footing. you to make tough decisions and not demagogue it. the speaker said we'll be looking at some of the entitlement programs next year. i doubt social security is among them. you still have a trust fund that's come vent until about 2033. it's smart toer to fix it now. last night i was in the rules committee. we were debating the tax bill and democrats said this is the republican plan. they're going to cut taxes and then entitlements. not necessarily true, but i hope we do tackle them and get some presidential leadership on that issue. we haven't had any of it, frankly, president obama didn't lead on that front, and i don't think president trump has led on that front. if you want to balance the budget, you need to go where the spending is at. 70% is entitlement. >> tom cole, thank you. happy holidays. >> thank you. >> in our next hour, we'll talk to the chief author of the house tax bill who then led the committee to reconcile it with the senate. congressman kevin brady joins us. plus new information on the train that derailed in washington state. it was going 80 miles per hour in a 30 miles per hour zone. "morning joe" is coming right back. david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ if yor crohn's symptoms are holding you back, and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough, it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn's. entyvio works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. this condition has not been reported with entyvio. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio. if your uc or crohn's treatment isn't working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. entyvio. relief and remission within reach. we cut the price of trades to give investors even more value. and at $4.95, you can trade with a clear advantage. fidelity, where smarter investors will always be. and at $4.95, you can trade with a clear advantage. swho live within five miles of custyour business?-54, like these two... and that guy. or maybe you want to reach women, ages 18 to 34, who are interested in fitness... namaste. whichever audience you're looking for, we'll find them we're the finders. we work here at comcast spotlight, and we have the best tools for getting your advertising message out there. anywhere, any way your audience watches. consider them found. christmas tree at the rhode island state house has died. the governor said yesterday the tree dried up and dropped piles of needles more than a week before christmas. the ap first to report on the tree's condition, and also people with eyes. noting bare branches and needles that dropped instantly when touched. all is not lost. governor said yesterday that a new tree is coming, thanks to a local tree farm that offered to donate a new tree. isn't the first time the rhode island state house has had tree trouble. in 2005 the tree shed the needles after being doused in fire retardant. then there was last year, the state house tree was removed after the staff decided the 14 footer was too small. replaced with a 20 footer. i think how they saw at the bottom where you put it in the water so it can drink. >> that was. i don't know why we did that story, but i enjoyed doing it. >> still ahead, nbc news has learned that just weeks after winning the republican presidential nomination the fbi warned then candidate donald trump about russia's efforts to metal in 2016 election. by that time, several members of his campaign had already been in contact with russians. we'll bring back into the conversation one of the reporters who broke that story, nbc carol lee and pentagon official with her take on the foreign policy speech. and kevin brady ahead of today's vote on the tax bill. a lot more ahead on "morning joe." ♪ dad promised he would teach me how to surf on our trip. ♪ when you book a flight then add a hotel you can save. ♪ three waves later, i think it was the other way around... ♪ everything you need to go. ♪ expedia. we're on a mission to show the new keurig k select brewer is the strong way to start your day. pop that in there. hit strong. press brew. that's it. strong. bold. rich. i feel like you're toying with me. show me how strong you are. 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[ mouse clicks, keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] ♪ good questions lead to good answers. our advisors can help you find both. talk to one today and see why we're bullish on the future. yours. welcome back to morning joe. it's tuesday, december 19. 8:00 a.m. on the east coast. 5 omar mate:00 a.m. on the west veteran columnist, sam stein, president of the counsel on foreign relations, richard haas and national political reporter carol lee. reveals high intelligence briefings during the summer of 2016. the fbi warned then candidate donald trump that russians might try to infiltrate campaign. siting multiple government officials familiar with the matter, the report says the warnings were timed to occur around the period when the candidates began receiving classified intelligence. and put them at greater risk for being trafargeted by foreign sp. they got a very clear warning. trump was briefed and warn. at a session on august 17, 2016. about potential espionage threats there russia to former law enforcement officials familiar with the sessions told nbc news hillary clinton received a similar briefing and the candidates were urged to alert the fbi about any suspicious overtures to the campaign. you would think you would tell someone, right. >> i'm a little confused. we've been trying to figure out this timeline. because they were warned by the fbi. >> it doesn't make any sense. >> and they said if you see something, say something. >> yes. >> definitely. >> if you hear of russians trying to infiltrate. >> definitely report that. >> you can report that. >> and ask we're giving you, we're now putting a frame around this saying if you see this, say it. >> it's kind of like when willie and i lived in turkey. if you know of anybody that's running a heroin trade through this neighborhood, let us know. we had sal come in the back and he faded for a couple of minutes. >> gave you the definition of coup. >> we probably should have told turkish officials then. we wouldn't have spent as much time in jail. >> what if you were in that meeting being briefed by the fbi and something had already happened. what if -- >> that would be bad. >> you say it. that's the point i was making about turkey. that's the correlation here. >> might be a time to raise a meeting you had a trump tower. >> had to be after. >> stop christmas shopping. >> you're telling me mika, you're telling me that the fbi warned them you're telling me they already had a meeting with all the russians and 14 interpreters in there. the reaction could have been gosh, we just had a meeting just like that. why don't we tell you all about it. instead, by the time of the warning in late july or august, at least seven trump campaign officials had been in contact with russians or people linked to russia as we just said. no evidence the campaign reported any of that to the fbi. >> i'm just a dumb country lawyer, carol lee, but that doesn't sound good. now, i hear you're the reporter. >> she's got all the invest stuff. >> did the warning come before or after all those russians crammed into don junior's office and he was all giggly about it. >> this would have been after. >> oh, i never saw that coming. this is a briefing under normal circumstances is relatively standard. both candidates got this briefing, essentially saying, hey, now you're the nominee, foreign governments adversaries are going to try to infiltrate your campaign. concerns about espionage. here's what that might look like. here's what you should do if you see anything that looks suspicious. >> say something. >> report it to the fbi. we know then candidate trump was present for the briefing. now, his person close to the white house said in response to the story that you know, they maintain that president trump had no idea that his campaign officials were having contacts with the uses, but it's not clear. if he's told about previous contacts. wasn't just the contacts that happened before this briefing, but contacts after this briefing. you remember there was the direct messages between don junior and wikileaks, for instance. things like that. so it raises a number of questions and obviously it has a certain amount of significance because this was all happening as opposed to the briefing that secretary clinton got. all happening at a time the government was starting an investigation into russia's metaling in the election and possible collusion. >> you would think they mentioned it. maybe they did mention it. >> we're obviously concerned about the trump team not understanding the significance of this or if they understand the significance of it, not reporting it to the fbi and not working together with the fbi. also every time a story like this comes up, it also cast as dim light on the obama administration. time and time again say wait a second. so, you had fbi and going and warning the campaigns. you knew about this. i know democrats like to say mitch mcconnell said they tried to make it partisan. i understand that. those are horrible thing for mitch mcconnell to do, but if i'm president of the united states, i'd say screw mitch mcconnell, you know what, i want everybody around this country to know that supervisor of election in wisconsin that the russians are trying to divert american democracy. >> that's absolutely true. there was a general sense in the obama administration this would almost take care of itself. hillary was going to win. if you raise the concerns in advance, you might cause a mess. why do that when you know the outcome anyway. in retrospect, that was a dumb calculation they made. if you had seen all the stuff building up as the administration did, attempts, state election sites, the obviously propaganda that was happening online, the clear text that the washington was making contact with the trump campaign. there was enough smoke there to declare, hey, guys, there's a fire. and yet they didn't do it. the one time they did do it was the same day that the billy bush tape was released and completely buried by that news. >> where is billy bush. >> richard, richard -- we'll get back to billy bush. billy bush full and complete pardon. >> totally. well, no. he just left while the president grabbed him. >> billy is making a comingbaeb >> okay. >> that happened. listen to the tape. >> what doid you take last nigh. >> no, listen to the tape. >> leave the guy alone. >> we've been talking about the past. we've been talking about donald trump. we've been talking about the obama administration. what they did not do. more relevant to us today, is what's happening in the future. and sadly we have a russian government that is trying to influence elections in germany and france and the united states across western democracies. we have a trend. we have a pattern. we have some very disturbing information from 2016, but is there any evidence that the united states government, that donald trump's administration is doing what is required to stop them from hacking the 2018 elections and 2020 elections? no. it's worse than that. what you have is a russian government that's not only interfering with elections here and elsewhere. this is a russian government that's essentially become a spoiler on the world stage. they've become an outlier and outsider. they want to overturn things. we haven't responded directly or forcefully to what they've done. no deterrence of what they might do in the future. we've essentially given them a pass on one of the most aggressive forms of russian destabilization activity in the world. >> it's so cheap. they don't have to spend that much money to create this much chaos. >> especially if you have a president in donald trump that denies the truth, that gives them free reign. even though he knows they were trying to influence the election before, say no, they didn't influence the election. he's not directing his people. mike pompeo saying there's no evidence of the russians trying to influence. >> do we have any status of the russian sanctions bills he was supposed to sign. this is months and months away. there's no price they're paying for this. >> churchill comment about russia saying it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma. that applies to this administration. after two years, what is motivating what that has been a sustained consistent pass on russia is tostill to me the biggest question mark in politics. >> number one who was in the meeting from the trump side? i know the president was in the counter intelligence briefing, but who else from the meeting was in it? second part, strikes me as i read your report the cia had talked to the fbi before these meetings and said we're seeing contact between the trump campaign and russia. you ought to look into them and james comey launched an investigation that summer. that came before those briefings. in other words, they knew in that meeting that the trump campaign had already reached out to russia. gave them the chance to talk about it and the campaign did not. >> yeah. first, i don't -- we don't know exactly who else was in the meeting. obviously the candidate was in the meeting. if you look at who was typically around him when he would have national security briefings like this, it was largely michael flynn and perhaps chris christie was another person on his campaign who had clearances to be part of briefings like this. we don't know exactly who was also with candidate trump at the time. >> the fbi knew going into the meeting. they had already been told by the cia the trump campaign had been talking to russia. they knew the answers to the questions they were asking. >> that's what is so extraordinary about this whole investigation. everyone was in unchartered territory at this stage. there was an aware rns. investigation was beginning at that time. another thing we point out is we heard from trump officials over and over again whenever there's things brought up about contacts with russia during the campaign or the question of collusion and meetings and not reporting them. we didn't know any better. this was first campaign. what did we know. the fact that they had this warning during the campaign suggests that's not necessarily the best excuse because they were told this is something that would be unusual. to hear them say repeatedly that they didn't know anything and they were just bump kins on their first campaign. this calls that into question. >> then the immediate future, the impact of the front page of "the washington post" this morning. trump team to press mueller. they are not going to go in there later this week and get the idea that this information investigation is going to end quickly. >> this is exactly what he was trying to do with james comey and got him bob mueller and got him the trouble he got. >> the question is ripe. it's in august when they get the washing. president trump gets the warning and security briefing. now, did he hear of any prior meetings between his sons and the russians at trump tower by then? >> it's a closely held campaign. there's no way they're meeting without anybody without donald trump knowing during that time period. no way. there is no prosecution arrest. >> you can see in carol's reporting at the beginning of the trump defense in all of this. president trump himself and then candidate trump himself did not know about it. it may have been happening beneath it, but he did not know. >> laughable. >> still ahead on morning joe, president trump lays out strategy for national security. sends mixed messages about russia. we'll talk to two foreign policy experts plus the house is set to hold a final vote on the gop plan for tax reform today. we'll bring in the ways and means committee chairman kevin brady. first, here is bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? good morning. fog is the story and the rain. it's not going to last and may have a little bit of snow for someone on christmas day. let's get into it. fog, 62 million people. yesterday was 38. i thought that was a lot. florida to texas. a lot of areas with dense fog. we will have delays at the airport and a little bit on the road. also heavy rain around dallas with thunderstorms this morning. december thunderstorms. overnight san antonio. now drifting up towards three port. georgia and carolinas as we go throughout the day tomorrow. mentioned the warmth. this is as warm as it gets and as warm as it is going to get. this map will be the complete opposite in seven days. major cold snap going to hit right around christmas and continue into the new year. mild today. 55 kansas city. enjoy this d.c. at 60 degrees. houston at 77. still warm on wednesday. here comes the cold. starts in the west. sweep around the country. rapid city drops to 24 for a high. how about friends in minnesota. finally feel like typical winter with high of 12 on sunday. and on christmas day, high will be zero. middle of the country going to be frigid on christmas day. very cold conditions. only 14 in areas like des moines and quad cities. 34 in kansas. east is where we have a slight chance, maybe a little bit of snow. storm coming up the coast. same time the cold air will be pushing in. too early. five, six days away to know where the rain snow line will be. northern new england had the best chance of seeing snow on christmas day. we have a couple days to watch out on that. see how it all plays out. enjoy the warmth across the country while it lasts. very cold stuff coming for the midwest first and eventually sweep to the east coast right after christmas. new york city looking good. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. ( ♪ ) ♪ i feel like fire ( ♪ ) the 2018 cadillac xt5. ♪ worship me beauty, greater than the sum of its parts. come in for our season's best offers and drive out with the perfect 2018 cadillac xt5. get a low-mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $379 per month. president trump speaking yesterday. promote accident america first theme. plus, congressman kevin brady shared the committee that reconciled the house and senate tax bill. he called the agreement a big win for all americans, but then why aren't all of his republicans colleagues on board. we'll ask him. and we're following latest on a deadly train derailment in washington state. investigators say the train was traveling 80-mile-per-hour when it careened off a bridge. we'll get a live report from the scene. morning joe is coming right back. ♪ a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored 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today at cancer.org and help attack cancer from every angle. america is in the game and america is going to win. our strategy advance is for vital national interest. first, we must protect the american people. the homeland and our great american way of life. this strategy recognizes that we cannot secure a nation if we do not secure our borders. the second pillar of our strategy is to promote american prosperi prosperity, for the first time, american strategy recognizes that economic security is national security. the third pillar of our strategy is to reserve peace through strength. we recognize that weak social security number the surest path to conflict. and unrivalled power is the most certain means of defense. fourth and finally, strategy is to advance american influence on the world. this begins with building up our wealth and power at home. >> president trump outlined his national security strategy yesterday. with us now to break it down, former dod official and former executive director of the wmd commission. now senior fellow at the atlantic counsel, evelyn. and here onset. gord gordon chang. >> >> his speech is very different to the document. if i read the document it reads fairly similar. it's got the right elements. the pillars are all fine. what i have a beef with is what is missing. he doesn't talk about the threat posed to america and the world by radical nationalism, i'll call it. the idea that -- and the biggest cham example of that is of course what russia did with legal -- using military force to change boards. that gets me to the second thing they got wrong or they omitted, which is the fact that russia is actually a bigger rule breaker right now than china. so they're kind of putting them in the same bucket. i don't think that works. >> gordon, where do we put this speech on the president who has at times undermined his secretary of state on policy. how do we know what we know hire. >> i think the speech and, certainly, the national security strategy like it or don't like it is historic. when you talk with china, there's been a china policy that has been in place since 1972 when nixon went to beijing. now the whole idea was to integrate china into the international system. high objective of national policy. look at the strategy, that's completely out. in a couple places it mentions how we tried to do that and that policy has failed. what the president is going to do is actually look at china and say, look, you got to comply with norms. you got to follow what the rest of the world wants. that's a very, very different view of the way things are going. i think that you know there's a lot wrong with this nss, national security strategy. it is aparadigm shift. >> did you hear anything in that speech new or interesting or heartening about the president's approach to north korea. >> no, i mean it's pretty much the same. one of the things that's interesting about the national security strategy is it doesn't really focus much on north korea. i think what it is trying to do is say north korea is the paw. the cat is china. therefore really focusing on the big power challenges, russia and china. really taking a look at iran and north korea as being side shows. >> lev lyevelyn, one of the thi about the speech that struck me and stood out in a negative way unfortunately for me had to do with references to the past. the past policies and past administrations. one line specifically i found to be upsetting in talking about past administrations and past presidents. they lost their belief in american greatness. >> go ahead. >> no, mike, i agree 100%. i was reading it thinking no other national security strategy has slammed previous administrations the way that they did in that language. and tit's trump's language and the speech he gave was so stark. it's wrong to say the previous presidents didn't care about american power, american national security interest. the issue here is that they're saying by picking interest over value so they're making this dark distinction that i think doesn't stand up in the other policy we might have denuclearizing north korea. we use influence. we use the attractiveness of u.s. democracy. of u.s. diplomacy. the way we operate is not transactional across the board. we don't use force to get our way generally speaking. >> i would not have criticized previous administrations, but let's be clear. there is an important shift here. that is you look at clinton administration what the president said when he was in office. there was a sort of notion of the united states integrating itself into multilateral instituti institutions. that's off the table in this trump administration. it's certainly not in the national security strategy where he's saying the united states because the attractiveness of values and ideals and economy is going to lead. so that's very different. >> i'm trying to figure out within the body of the speech in terms of what you were just talking about, specifically china and the threat china poses to us. how can you really go after china and talking about china when you were within the first few minutes of your administration void the tpp pact. >> we should have stayed in the trans-pacific partnership. that really was the center of president obama's shift to asia. i think that was a mistake. i just came back from tokyo. japanese are livid about that. they put themselves on the line to join tpp. nonetheless what trump is saying if you have a strong and resur gent american economy, this is going to allow the united states to accomplish historic goals. that's something we've not heard before. it's an important way of looking at things. very different. a lot of people may disagree with it. it's a new turn in american foreign policy that we have just not heard in decades. >> yes, i agree that rhetorically it's different. do you see how there's a disconnect between the rhetoric in the parties. you can be a super pawer in theory. if you abdicate any global leadership roles. push back or pull back from trans-pacific partnership. gut your own state department, if you know anow allies and miss them off. if you make enemies of the british, of the german leadership. at at some point, the rhetoric seems flimsy when you have all these instances in which you are not exerting u.s. leadership. >> the national strategy came early in the trump administration. much earlier than other administrations issued. i think we're going to see specially with the section 301 investigation and the remedies that have come from that and other things. you talk about those things where we irritated allies. we have certain cases we need to do that. someone needed to tell the germ germans. someone needed to tell the dutch. this is no longer sustainable. >> i think about retweeting britain first the counts on twitter. that's no different than saying you need to contribute to nato. that's literally promoting white nationalist in britain and fundamentally different. no one is going to argue about that. the point is when you look at this, what he has done is said look, we have an american first national security strategy. i don't like the phrases, but nonetheless, what he did in nss is outline how that makes sense. a lot of people will disagree with it. the point is essentially, look. we have a resur gent u.s. economy. we are going to have american leadership just like we saw in previous administrations. >> we're not. if i can interject because i don't think that he's defending the international order. i think the international order is key. we set it up in order to serve our national security interests. we overlaid our values or underverticaled it with values. i don't see him in this document certainly not in practice defending the international order. that's what russia is so aggressively railing against. trying to up the international order. by the way, i don't see china doing it quite as aggressively. they vice president metalled in our election. not metaling in elections all across europe. i think the equivalence si doesn't stand up. they needed to call out russia much more strongly and defend the international order. i'm worried now. you see monday the aus trtrian government was going to issue. usually the small states cause problems for the bigger states we know historically. i'm worried about the international order. the boundaries of the west order. they need to be defended. the united states needs to be first and foremost leading the charge on that. all right. evelyn, gordon chang. thank you both for bing on this morning. the chairman of the tax writing house ways and means committee joins us next ahead of today's big vote in the house on the tax bill. keep it right here on "morning joe." liberty mutual saved us almost eight hundred dollars when we switched our auto and home insurance. liberty did what? yeah, they saved us a ton, which gave us a little wiggle room in our budget. wish 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odors for up to 30 days. because the things you love can stink. joining us now. chairman of the house ways and means committee, republican congressman kevin brady of texas. good morning. good to see you. today is a big day. building to this for a long time. any chance it doesn't make it through the senate today. >> no, i think it's going to be approved in both chambers by new year's day, america is going to have a new tax code. it is long overdue. 31 years. we've got to shake and get this economy moving in a big way and competitive tax code we stop seeing jobs keep moving overseas, companies and headquarters as well. quote. we're getting rid of interests. hedge fund managers are getting away with murder. one of the campaign pledges to get rid of cared interest. still in there. exten ex the truth is hedge fund managers and private equities hold things for much longer than three years anyway. why is carried interest still in the bill. what's the benefit to the american people. >> that's a perfect issue. disconnect between washington and new york and the american people. look, that average family making $73,000 a year. both blue collar workers will see a tax cut in this tax bill. for the first time, we're actually going to be competitive, first time in 31 years. worldwide. that's what americans are really foe doesed on. look carried interest we could talk about that for the next hour if you would like. for most americans, they could care less about that. they care about their paychecks. and getting the economy going. frankly. i've got a college son as well. making sure they've got a good paying job when they're done with school. >> as you know, this is this goes to a lot of people in new york who make a lot of money. why is it still in gl through your holding period to make sure hedge funds are using and flipping these. making sure you have to have capital at risk. hold it for a long period of time. and that you work to grow it. all that is the reasoning behind it. again, perfect example i think of why washington and new york get caught up in all these ancillary issues and forget the big picture here. it's about growing paychecks for middle class families. it's about growing jobs in america. and about our jobs stopping leaving the united states and that's why there's so much support in congress for this. >> we'll get into some of the other pieces. this is it. that's the best question you've got. >> one of many questions we've got. >> carried interest? seriously. >> hold on. can you answer us? >> chairman, this was a primary campaign pledge. he went after again, and, again, and talked about carried interest. >> you know what a primary campaign pledge was, lower the tax rates. let people keep more of what they earned. get our jobs going again. get our paychecks increased again. president trump in congress is delivering on that big campaign promise today. >> would you concede though that carried interest and we will move on to other parts of the bill, i swear. >> i'll concede that you're obsessed with one issue. >> the promise the president made. >> and something you're concerned about within the last month. would you concede that this wealthy new york private equity firms. >> no it doesn't. >> it doesn't? >> at the end of the day, keep talking about this. this is why the american public turns off these shows unfortunately. >> because they're not getting answers. >> actually, kevin, people aren't turning offer our show. we never talk about it, but since you talked about it, we have look, we have kevin. let me talk. kevin let me talk. we have highest ratings we've ever had this year. been a very good year for us. people aren't turning us off. people are concerned about is the fact that donald trump promised to run a campaign and pass a tax bill and pass a health care reform that helps working class people that are in your district and help working class people that are in my district that said. >> people who voted for you. >> that said he was going to take it to the hedge fund guys who pay their salaries and irs. >> let me step back a minute. >> let me finish. >> let me step back a minute. >> let me finish. >> let me agree with you. >> kevin. a lot of people in your district that work hard that don't make a lot of money are paying double that. >> i tell you what, people in my community working hard have not seen a paycheck increase in more than a decade. washington loves to spend money. for the first time we're saying why don't you spend your money on what's important to you family and let me agree with you in this point. when i say people are turning you off, i don't mean that for this show. i love coming on this show. the i think it's an important part of our country. what i'm saying is i think generally when washington and other areas really focus on obsess on one provision when the rest of the country is really focused on their paycheck, we're missing a really great discussion. that's all. >> the part of the discussion and joe will let you take it away again here is that i think people are turned off with washington when the same old thing happens again, and, again, and, again. and really having very interesting question that is not an obsession that is about the fairness of this plan. >> back home, i just have to tell you i don't mean to interrupt. no one back home says hey how is the carried interest provision going. they're asking hey can i keep more of my paycheck. can we get the economy going. can we get jobs back from overseas. my point to you is i think those are the big issues families care about. that's all. >> i think as far as branding, as far as a message, i think when you look at the polls, this tax plan has a lot of the problems that the health care plan had which is, which is that it seemed to help the wealthiest of americans and not help working class americans enough. do you think republicans can get the message out here. here's a monmouth university poll that suggests that. do you think that part of this is a failure of republicans to get the message out. that this doesn't just help rich people. this helps working class americans as well. do you believe it does. >> the bill certainly does. the focus on middle class families. there's an easy narrative around this country and has been for a decade. look, make sure no one gets rewarded the successful -- the talking points on tax reform was written two years ago. they're still on it. our democratic colleagues, but they ignore the rel benefits for hard working families, and, again, i know washington sneers at family getting $2,000 tax break, but for that family, it's really important because they haven't seen a raise in their paycheck. so yeah, i think as this bill when people really seem to understand what is in this bill and how it benefits where the fog of all the politics and washington ends, i think there's going to be strong support for this. >> you also talked about the need to get this economy jump started. get it moving. tax bill will do that. donald trump has said and i know you hear him all the time talk about best stock market ever. best economy ever. best recovery ever. pretty well. is this the right time for a tax cut when you have the president of the united states saying that we already have the best economy we've had in a long time. great question. here's the answer. look where we're at. three%. dramatically better than the obama years and slow growth of the last decade. it does feel much better than it did. we're now at the average, the average that we've been for the last 50 years. this tells you why we have to do it. unless we're going to settle and joe you know your economics. unless we're going to settle for 2% growth for the next decade or more every time, that's what we'll have to. i'm not going to settle for that. we shouldn't settle for that. we get the growth. it helps jobs. helps young people coming out of school. helps major cities and economies like new york. yeah, absolutely. unless america is going to settle for a dumbed down version of the economy for another decade, it's time to change. >> so congressman, i know you're pretty connected to your district and know your district pretty well. you probably are aware of the fact there's a two teiered economy in this country. shareholder economy and paycheck to paycheck economy and a lot of your constituents haven't received a decedent pay raise in over a decade. what would lead you to believe from recent history, past history, from today, from reality, that this sudden boom to so many corporations to hedge funds, to private equity funds as contained in the tax bill that they're going to turn around and start hiring people. >> yes. probably the most loaded question i've had for a while. the truth of the matter is that so we in texas you know we understand energy. we understand international trade. a lot of our jobs come from both. we know our local companies are getting clobbered when they try to compete around the world. we've seen 18 of our -- we have a good business sector. we've seen 18 texas based companies now located in england and europe and netherlands. bu bermuda. tired of seeing the jobs go overseas. one thing we don't talk about is when american companies compete and win for the first time around the world, they can brick the dollars back to by reinvested in new york and woodland texas and across the country. another big change in this tax reform plan. >> congressman, sam stein here. one of the big selling points for the plan is the child tax credit. and i know it was increased in conference committee to help with support of marco rubio. as i understand the tax credit is not indexed to inflammation. meaning the purchasing power of i represent, lack of a better word, won't go up over time. why did you not index it to inflation. >> increased in the house version. the senate version, and, again, in conference. i believe let me triple check that. i believe it was the conferenc version and i believe indexed for inflation over time. i'll double-check that for you. it's a great question. the other thing about this that most people don't know, it's not mentioned, is for the first time instead of phasing out at about $110,000, a family -- which isn't much, especially where you live, it now starts to phase out at $400,000 a family. which means more families raising kids are going to get help under the republican tax plan than ever before. >> i said child tax, i meant child credit, i just want to clarify. >> mr. chairman, thank you. thanks for watching. we appreciate it. >> let me just say one thing -- >> you got it. >> i think the chairman's right, if you ask somebody about carried interest, they wouldn't know what it is. it's arcane and hard to understand. what people do understand is the promise of this administration was to drain the swamp and people understand fairness. the promise that wasn't going to happen, that's what they do understand. >> they do. loud and clear. >> i do think the great challenge for the republicans, and by the way, nobody ever knows how things are going to work out. nobody saw it really. a few people saw 2008 coming. but you never know when a tax cut's going -- maybe this makes the economy explode. maybe it goes up to 4%. we don't know. but you only have to deal with the facts that you have to deal with right now. we know a couple things. one, donald trump says the economy's hotter and faster and doing better and the stock market's better than ever before. that's not when you stimulate the economy with a tax cut. secondly, we know that income disparity in the united states of america has grown at a faster clip than any other western industrialized nation. the top 1% control 25% of our nation's income. and carried interest -- i went to a republican governors association meeting a couple years ago, and everybody was talking, working class, working class. and i'm like, with you, with you, with you. then i turned to a governor, i said, okay, why don't we get rid of carried interest? because your dad, who you say is a working class guy, he wouldn't understand these hedge fund guys paying 14% in taxes. and the response was -- oh, we can talk about carried interest all day, let's talk about nobody wants to talk about carried interest. donald trump wanted to talk about carried interest. donald trump promised to take care of carried interest. promised to make sure that hedge people -- people that run hedge funds don't pay 14% in taxes while their assistants pay 28% or 35% in taxes. >> they're getting away with murder. >> the guys who are the hedge fund managers just happen to be the biggest donors in politics, so that might explain it. >> and donald trump's going to make $1 billion and his family will make $1 billion. >> good for him. >> off of this bill. >> the quick answer, all these good corporations are going to do very well. they're all on the new york stock exchange. what are they going to do first? they're going to go out and hire 100 people or increase the dividend? >> again, the economy in 2017 is -- any profits they make, they will buy back stock. this is not 1981 when reagan passed tax cuts and actual tax savings meant you could expand an assembly line. long gone. >> up next, cars on an interstate below. we'll get a live report from the scene next. the trash? (sigh) ( ♪ ) dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo! ( ♪ ) mom: hey, molly? it's time to go! (bell ringing) class, let's turn to page 136, recessive traits skip generations. who would like to read? ( ♪ ) molly: i reprogrammed the robots to do the inspection. it's running much faster now. see? it's amazing, molly. thank you. ( ♪ ) new details this morning on yesterday's deadly amtrak derailment. just outside of tacoma, washington. overnight, the national transportation safety board confirmed the train was traveling 80 miles per hour in a 30 mile per hour zone. joining us now, nbc news correspondent gladi schwartz. >> reporter: we know it was traveling at 80 miles an hour in a 30 mile per hour zone because of a black box recovered in the back of the train. i want to show you what's going on. live, very difficult conditions out here for crews in this washington rain but you can see over there, there's a crane working in tandem with another crane and it's getting ready to lift up a piece of the train off of the bridge, off of that overpass. other pieces of that train were littered all throughout this highway on i-5 here. they're having to cut this train apart piece by piece and lift it out of the way. they're hoping to restore traffic here on i-5. but this is where that train derailed. in fact if you look over there where those blinking lights are, that is where the train was coming into the curve. it should have been going 30 miles an hour there. it was going 80 miles an hour. that looks like a major contributing factor to this train derailment. mika, back to you. >> i don't understand, we had a train wreck here in new york -- >> yes. >> again, once again, went around the corner too quickly. why don't we have systems in place that slow those -- >> well, there are some, just not in those -- obviously in the areas where -- >> same thing that happened in philadelphia a couple years ago. >> tomorrow on morning joe, we're going to speak with outspoken critic of vladimir putin gary kasparov. he joins us on set. >> i'm going to play him a couple games, chess. >> my father taught me chess, i can beat him. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage. more people shop online for the holidays than ever before. (clapping) and the united states postal service delivers more of those purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. ( ♪ ) because we know, even the smallest things are sometimes the biggest. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning, a deadly first ride. officials reveal the amtrak train that careened off a washington bridge was traveling 50 miles over the speed limit. >> just looking at this whole mess right around christmas breaks my heart. >> questions about why a key safety system was not in place. >> would prevent types of accidents s
they're in compliance. >> we have won against isis. we have beaten them and beaten them badly. >> while isis is nearing territorial defeat in syria, they are returning to their roots. >> knocking the hell out of isis. >> isis still commands thousands of fighters in iraq and syria. >> a lot of contrast between president trump's rhetoric on big foreign policy issues and what the senate had to say yesterday for worldwide threat assessments hearing. one issue noybly absent, the border with mexico. trump and his intelligence chiefs did not once mention the need for a wall along the southern border president trump portrayed as the single most pressing need for the country. >> more specifically, you're talking about national security threats for america. not only do they not talk about the wall, they didn't talk specifically about the southern border. >> or caravans. >> nor should they. or caravans. crossings again have been going down for well over a decade, illegal drugs you can ship directly to john heilemann's abode. >> please. >> actually goes through legal ports of entry, his in 1967 as an illegal port of entry. >> an app. a special custom app in partnership with fedex. >> but, it is -- willie, what's so fascinating is what donald trump said is more in line with what vladamir putin said and what he would say on all of those issues opposed to what the head of america's fbi, america's cia, america's dni, all of america's military. american leaders have one view of the world. vladamir putin has another view of the world. if you look at those issues yesterday, donald trump's lineup far closer with vladamir putin's than they do with the head of the fbi, the cia, the director of national intelligence. >> people protecting america. >> all republicans by the time who donald trump appointed. >> and the view of russia's threat to the united states, ongoing threat, by the time, as they said yesterday, has been consistent with our intelligence agencies from the beginning. president trump has been in contrast with them for years now. we talk a lot on this show about institutions holding and what does that mean in this age of trump? yesterday, we saw institutions holding. saw the head of the cia and fbi and director of national intelligence sitting at an open hearing signaling to the american people and the world, beach still got this and here they are despite what the president said. >> we have national affairs analyst for msnbc and cohost, john heilemann. >> now with the app makes it a lot easier for the dea to follow him around. >> roger stone melting down when you were bringing up certain issues with him is worth noting and looking at. >> especially with the flashing in si incisors and foaming mouth. >> also, republican strategist and msnbc political analyst, and cofounder and axios analyst. we will talk about one more thing, billionaires going wild, freaking out about elizabeth warren and her proposed tax plan, we give you that ahead. >> i can say this, we see, willie, jim vanderhyde, axios had a big year on twitter. what i thought about at 2:00 in the morning, slept well last night, it's really not fair you look at their income streaming and compare to other platform, half of their 25 million in revenue, as it always does, comes from the mike allen swimsuit calendar. >> stop. >> by the time, this year, it's gone exclusively at -- >> i won't get any sleep tonight. >> troubling. >> you guys, it's multiplatform. you have holograms, you have the calendar itself. >> we have this fancy backdrop. see that? it's not those rich mahogany bookcases you have but sleep white. >> can we do the news? >> you're talking about trump aligning with putin a lot more? >> yes. >> look at this. >> the white house acknowledged president trump and russian president vladamir putin informally met at beunos aires at the g20 summit but a new report acknowledges their conversation was longer, no substantive and included no american personnel. in november, trump pointedly cancelled his scheduled meeting with putin. >> almost like a trend here, a fear that the president of the united states ever has an american listening to his conversations with vladamir putin. >> with putin. >> almost. >> okay. it happens all the time. >> in november he cancelled his meeting with putin due to russia's provocative action to ukrainian ships and sailors. trump tweeted, i look forward to a meaningful meeting again as soon as this situation is resolved. but the leaders huddled for several minutes at the end of an evening event with no translator or notetaker from the u.s. side to record what was said. >> susan, here's another thing. why is it that the translator's never from the american side. if it is always to be one translator, always a translator for vladamir putin but never a translator for the american side? >> because president trump does not trust the intel community, he does not trust his own staff. this goes back to jared kushner wanted to back channel with the russians right after the russians and wanted as an open line of communication. he has now said, i will find it. he doesn't care if he's not updating his security team or intel team. that's also what's good about yesterday's hearing, those members of the intel community said we are going to be honest, we are going to be straightforward with the american public and we are not afraid of donald trump. >> they have lied time and time again. i remember, i mean, the guy, i said this before, march of 2017, asking mark halperin, quiet upset all around, this is when the whole russian thing started to percolate, he said, don junior for one. i said, what, don junior, does he not have a hunting license in idaho? you and mark and others did extraordinary reporting about all these contacts with russians that donald trump and the whole team have been lying about now for two years. >> it's pretty amazing the extent of it and the reporting cataloging how much it's been. to susan's point a second ago, i put a donald trump spin on this, donald trump doesn't trust his community and there is a reason why american presidents even in one-on-ones in the past, do one-on-ones with other presidents and heads of state, always have someone on their side there because the rest of the government needs to know what's said in that meeting and to keep later accounts honest from the other side. trump, for whatever reason, whatever he's talking to with vladamir putin is stuff he does not want any american to know about. that raises all kind of -- a slightly chilling thing this happens every time he meets with putin and not reported or read out to the press and has no one from the american government ever present. that pattern is truly unsettling and disturbing. >> jim, that pattern has been with us a long time. remember when he invited in the russian foreign minister and russian ambassador of the united states to brag about the fact he fired jim comey and they didn't have anything to worry about anymore and the pressure had been taken off the russian investigation, he excluded american reporters from that meeting but allowed russians in. >> yeah. i've got a lot of friends and family members who are like, wait, other presidents have done this. didn't obama do this with putin? no is the answer. i can't remember a single time in history one of our leaders has met with adversary multiple times there's nobody on the american side taking any notes or there to tell other people in the government what actually transpired. it's just plain weird. you juxtapose that with what you were talking about the top of the show. this idea of the intelligence community or apparatus or federal government saying the opposite what their boss says about isis or russia. that doesn't happen. it's never happened with this level of consistency where they break, based on data and intelligence from what the president says rhetorically in public. those two things, they might not be impeachable and they might not be enough to move trump voters, but they are just plain weird and they break from historical precedent. >> so the report -- >> quickly -- >> yeah. >> this isn't like obama's deep state. >> no. >> these are all republicans, all appointed by donald trump, christopher wray, as we heard yesterday, was suggested by governor chris christie, jena was not a republican pick, running the cia. republican ambassador and republican through and through also picked by donald trump, confirmed by -- these are all republicans saying what the president is telling you is just a lie. what the president is telling you is not what's happening in the world. it's happening time and time again. even the dhs secretary said that vladamir putin and russia pose a direct threat to american democratic. she said it under testimony, she said it on capitol hill. seriously. he just keeps denying and denying what everybody in his government and in the military are saying. >> so, some more details from this report, not independently confirmed by nbc news, people who had direct knowledge of the encounter or were briefed on it, claims the discussion occurred at a theater as world leaders and their spouses were streaming out of the building, president trump accompanied by his wife, melania, but no staff and president trump with his translator, the four sat at a table and were among the last to leave. a russian government leader tells the financial times the two speak about 15 minutes about a number of foreign policy issues, including the sea incident with ukraine and conflict in syria. they also discussed when they could have a formal meeting the official said. the white house declined formal comment. this is incredible. >> 15 minutes pales to what we have seen before, two hours at helsinki with no translators, no national security of advisor or secretary of state to be next to donald trump. think of those two narrators. donald trump and vladamir putin trying to explain exactly what happened and no account what happened in that room. imagine you were president trump, a person under investigation for working with russia. your campaign worked with russia. what would you do as a pr matter? wouldn't you have as many people in a room as you could? wouldn't you have translators and advisors? >> somebody from your country. >> of course i don't have a strange relationship with vladamir putin, it's all out in the open. he's doing the exact opposite. >> not only that, the story sourced by a russian official. this wasn't coming from u.s. sources. this is russia saying, we are going to interfere even more with this president by doing this. >> john heilemann, what this shows us is, again, the russians, at every one of these meetings, have all the read-outs. they know what goes on in these meetings so they can prepare in the future. i love what jim vandehei says, this never happens. never happens repeatedly like this, especially it keeps happening. usually, a president is not allowed to talk to anybody without having somebody there, without getting the full notes back to the state department, back to the national security advisor so they can plan their strategy towards a country that sees the united states of america as an enemy. we may see the russians as an adversary, vladamir putin sees the united states as an enemy. >> donald trump is in no position to dispute anything they said. trump says, that didn't happen in the meeting. he's never done that. if he ever did, found himself in a situation the return media side spun in a certain way, that i don't happen, he has no recourse from any other person that was there, i have notes from the meeting, the national security advisor never said this, he's in a position now he's vulnerable to russian spin and misinformation and puts himself in a situation he can be privately manipulated by vladamir putin and brings us back to the large questions here, what is it vladamir putin has on donald trump that compels him to allow -- for vladamir putin to call the shots how these meetings are set up and why does donald trump cap pit late over and over again. capitulate -- >> and what is happening with helsinki where donald trump says, i take the word of an ex-kbg agent over my own hand-picked fbi director, my own hand-picked director of national against, my own hand-picked joint chiefs of staff. my own hand-picked national security establishment. my own hand-picked -- you can go down the list -- jim vandehei, you talk about your relatives, i can talk about my relatives when issues like this come up. i wonder how voters, especially in your home state of wisconsin, which seems to me to be sort of the florida florida of 2020, it is really the state that determines whether donald trump has any chance of repeating again in 2020. what are people in wisconsin saying? how do they square up the fact donald trump is siding with vladamir putin on issues regarding russia and suria a and -- and syria and north korea and the fbi director and cia director and director of national intelligence and republican hand-picked donald trump employees? >> there's not a ton of evidence trump is losing that much support from his base. i don't know they're watching this like we are, saying, my gosh, i'm connecting these dots and don't want to support donald trump. >> shouldn't they? >> they should be. you could watch the first 15 minutes and say, geez, you guys are all very conspiratorial. there is nothing that is not a fact so far. on capitol hill yesterday, you have republicans saying it would be dangerous to do what donald trump said in syria. who wants us to get out of syria precipitously? vladamir putin. that's about it. it may be turkey, may be a few others that want us out precipitously. wait a minute, you shouldn't do that. republicans on the hill who tend to back him on anything, no, we don't agree to that either. you have to pay attention. yes, they're not all linked but all counter to how we've done business in washington and government, you have to zero in on it and start to ask those questions. why? go back, what does vladamir putin have over trump? that used to be very conspiratorial when you say it. we now know if you listen to rudy guiliani and people in this white house, there was potential activity going on, a potential business deal throughout the campaign for trump to have a property in moscow, coordination between michael cohen, his right hand person and moscow. moscow knew that. putin knew that. putin knows every single thing that happens in rush, contact that happens and that is one thing you would have dangling over him. >> it is. there are so many coincidences. if you're sitting at a craps table and somebody rolls snake eyes once, but if they do it 47 times in a row, the die are loaded, right? >> it's very concerning. >> anybody here watch sherlock. >> yeah. >> there's that amazing scone where the older brother is yelling in sherlock's brain and what do we say about coincidence, sherlock, sherlock respond, the universe is rarely so lazy. these are not coincidences. you can go all the way back to donald trump on this show in december of 2015, saying vladamir putin was a stronger leader than american leaders and he didn't care he assassinated people, that u.s. troops in iraq killed people, too. go back to that. it's one after another after another example. after a while, the coincidences, there is no explanation here. again, on what vladamir putin wants the most, taking over the middle east. getting the united states out of syria. donald trump is the only person in washington, d.c. other than rand paul, he doesn't really count, does he, that wants us out of syria. >> the thing i keep coming back to, it's not an america first policy, a donald trump policy. >> it's a russia first policy. >> it is always about donald trump. it always comes back to that. any time you want to know why does he have a secret one-on-one with vladamir putin or does any of the things he does, he does it because it is in his best interests and hopefully we will learn more about what those interests are. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," new polling says voters have more faith in democrats than the president and republicans including over border security. >> more confidence in nancy pelosi. >> absolutely. than donald trump. >> nancy wins big time on that one. >> running against nancy pelosi, that really worked for you republicans last time. try that again. plus, senator elizabeth warren takes on the wealthiest people in america and they are freaking out including former starbucks howard schultz who will be on later on. >> bill karins was a little upset coming in here, not because he has billions of dollars he's hiding in the caymens, this polar vortex everyone is talking about. >> about five years ago the media caught onto that and everyone is making a big deal of that. going back to the late 1800s, nothing new, this catchy fraiph, and get really cold outbreaks. a piece broke off over minneapolis and chicago this morning and have over 100 million people under wind chill warnings or advisors. yesterday, the lowest i saw was negative 66 in minnesota. that is pretty extreme and chicago at negative 45, why schools are canceled throughout this region. today is the peak of it, the worst of it and will get warmer. across the northeast, snow squalls and wind chills 5 in new york and nothing compared to anything 27 in chicago and minneapolis, negative 39. we will quickly see things getting a lot warmer. negative 27 in minneapolis, 44 by sunday. temperature goes up 70 degrees by this upcoming weekend for super bowl sunday. this is a short-lived really extreme cold weather event. in some places like chicago, this is the coldest we've seen in 20 to 25 years. chicago's negative 27, you're about negative 19 this morning, not going to hit that record today. you will have one more chance tomorrow. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be ri. you can do this. here we go! 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when i needed to jumpstart sales. build attendance for an event. help people find their way. fastsigns designed new directional signage. and got them back on track. get started at fastsigns.com. show of hands, who's a future comcast business customer here?. i think we all are. yeah, definitely. sign us up. yes. two hands. two hands. yay. double hands. get fast reliable internet and add voice for a low price. just one more way we go beyond for your business. and now you can also enter for a chance to win $10,000 from comcast business toget your year off to a fast start. there's a new $10,000 winner every day in january. go online now and enter for a chance to win. comcast business. beyond fast. former new york senator mayor, michael bloomberg hit on elizabeth warren's plan, comparing the plan to socialism. >> we shouldn't be embarrassed. you want to look at a system non-capitalistic, look at what was the wealthiest country in the world and today people are starving to death, called venezuela. >> when i see elizabeth warren come out with, you know, a ridiculous plan of taxing wealthy people a surtax of 2% because it makes a good headline or sends out a tweet when she knows for a fact it's not something that will ever be passed, this is what's wrong. you can't just attack these things in a punitive way by publishing people. >> warren responded to the criticism, tweeting, what's ridiculous is billionaires who think they can buy the presidency to keep the system rigged for themselves while opportunity slips away for everybody else. the top 0.1%, who'd pay my #ultra millionaire wealth own about the same wealth as 90% of america. it's time for change. this is the sort of thing people thought they would be getting with donald trump, this sort of populism, where he was going to level the playing field a bit. i'm not so sure this is not going to be extremely popular in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, ohio, in a lot of places across america. >> certainly among the people who decide who the democratic presidential nominee is. if i was elizabeth warren, i would be sending thank you notes to mike bloomberg and howard schultz right now. they gave her an in-kind campaign contribution now. this is the best boost she's had for her campaign in a while. howard schultz is understood and will be on the show today, understands his posture puts him out of step where the democratic party is. a lot of people point at mike bloomberg and rightly say he's done a lot of good work on climate change and gun control. that gives him some standing to run as a democrat. his biggest vulnerability he is a plutocrat. he is entitled to his view on tax rates and he is ex-exacerbating his vulnerability as most democrats who will be on her side about the super rich paying more taxes. >> democrats, a, are not in the mood to hear it right now and, b, not in the mood to hear it from two billionaires. >> let's go to our reporter to talk about this. has there ever been a time in history that attack this concept and impacts the economy? >> no. mike bloomberg says it's unconstitutional. this is always the problem for mike bloomberg where he stands on economic issues, focus on the national debt when democrats do not want to talk about that. we can argue republicans don't want to talk about it either. the mike bloomberg i saw yesterday in new hampshire looked like the mike bloomberg speaking at the republican national convention dismissing it as socialism. while he's made a lot of inroads among progressives for a couple of issues, this will always be his problem, particularly running in a democratic primary, elizabeth warren's idea may be impractical in terms of getting it passed through congress and now exactly is it going to be administered. she was on msnbc recently talking about how she would look at assets not just within the united states for her tax. if you want to put some money in switzerland or an island somewhere she will also find that and levy a tax on that. there are key questions how it will work. in terms of mike bloomberg and howard schultz, this is not a good look going forward. this is a gift to elizabeth warren. >> willie, a fox news poll showed 70% of americans support -- 70% of americans support increasing for taxes for people with incomes over $10 million. 65% incomes over $1 million and 44% incomes over $250,000. aoc was getting some attention for raising a 70% tax for the money earned over -- >> over 10 million. >> $10 million, republicans painted as a radical idea. i would say about 90% of americans would say, sounds about right to me. if they want to pretend -- >> i can't imagine -- >> if they want to pretend that that's not where people are right now, that's fine. we have had such a vast accumulation of wealth by such a small sector of society, we have also had -- we have also had -- made great strides when it comes to poverty, not only in this country but across the world. but, again, the accumulation of wealth and the difference between what a ceo made in 1965 and what the ceo's worker made in 1965 compared to now is just outrageous. >> there aren't a lot of people who will be weeping for howard schultz or mike bloomberg as they make the case against this. they understand because the argument has been made by elizabeth warren over the last decade the inequality in this country is so bad and so unsustainable. you have watched candidates go through new hampshire, what is the feeling? is it the elizabeth warren vibe or is there a lane if he could make the case, for a mike bloomberg or howard schultz or someone from the center, like joe biden? >> i will make two different point. number one, this is a party that wants someone of a now reality of the base. it may not be a younger person, but younger idea. a party moving away from the clinton name for the first time in 25 years. they want to know what's new, what's next, what's exciting. at the same time, i hear again and again, electability, beating donald trump is, i think, the defining issue when we get to the fall and new hampshire primary. almost remind me of 2004, we were dating dean before he married kerry. i will say something highly controversial, in the summer of 2015, this show was all over cable news talking about how to watch donald trump, he could be the front-runner for structural reasons, and he's interesting. i got ridiculed for that. will say something kind of crazy. democrats obviously need to or want to nominate a woman or minority. the front-runner is mike bloomberg structurally, because of the dynamic that played out with donald trump in 2016, where he got 30% of the pie in every state except for south carolina, and able to build some momentum. mike bloomberg right now does not represent the democratic party for the reasons we just said. does he represent 20, 25%? he does. he has the ability to execute on that idea. that's why i think he's probably actually the most interesting person in this race right now. he had a very good trip to new hampshire and iowa a couple weeks ago. he's far from the nominee for any reasons and the most structurally interesting person in this race. is that because some of those progressive candidates carve up the progressive slice of the pie because there are a lot of candidates? >> exactly. kamala harris clearly has a lot of advantages. elizabeth warren has a lot of advantages but they will carve up that progressive pie so much, when we get down to it and democrats look at electability, mike bloomberg might have his own lane even when he is not clearly the cup of tea for a lot of progressives around the country. >> he has an incredible track record in terms of what he did for new york city. >> "boston globe"'s reporter, james, please come back. after the shutdown, new polls shows republicans siding with democrats when it comes to security. we will look at it next on "morning joe." ♪ not long ago, ronda started here. and then, more jobs began to appear. these techs in a lab. this builder in a hardhat... ...the welders and electricians who do all of that. the diner staffed up 'cause they all needed lunch. teachers... doctors... jobs grew a bunch. what started with one job spread all around. because each job in energy creates many more in this town. energy lives here. this round is on me. hey, can you spot me? 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>> i think so. mitch mcconnell thought willie, it was pretty extraordinary, mitch mcconnell, republicans were as aggressive as they were. donald trump is just melting down. his poll numbers -- those poll numbers, republicans have never seen -- >> they can read. >> -- a poll where nancy pelosi is four ahead of a national leader, republican especially. also, they have to be hearing from their base and their contributors and a lot of traditional conservatives saying, wait a second, we're turnings sir yo over to putin and a general hanging out. i thought maybe somebody would want to jump in, i'm hanging there. >> sometimes a dramatic pause. >> or to keep going. >> he also said the famous line, there's no education the second kick of a mule, asked about the possibility of a shutdown in two weeks, there's certainly no education in the third kick of a mule. what are we doing talking about another shutdown? what's interesting, there was a report a couple days ago, the white house presented president trump, his senior advisors with pact of polling that says the shutdown worked for him. >> unbelievable. >> i confirmed that with the white house. they said, we don't think another shutdown is a good idea but we have numbers internally saying his numbers dropped a little but not as much as portrayed in the national poll. nancy pelosi's numbers went down in complete contrast to the polling we just showed there. they believe it, that that wasn't such a bad thing for him, those 35 days weren't so bad for the president. >> i want to add one other thing the republicans on the hill are also very concerned about. it's what they don't know when it comes to robert mueller. the stone indictment, and this investigation, republicans are very nervous being so tied to the president. it's not there yet but they want to be able to break away and breakfast. >> yep. >> john heilemann, what you're seeing from mcconnell apart from everything, we are going to run into this deadline the end of this period having the government funded. you will have another conversation. it's unlikely anything will come out of these negotiations. i think mcconnell is setting the predicate for resuming the conversation with president trump, dude, if you don't open the government, we will have 75 people on the senate side and much of my conference will turn against you. that conversation will have to be renewed and i think mcconnell, along with everything else is playing the groundwork not to do this again. i think he's starting to let trump know that's where the conversation is going. >> when polls show higher numbers of republicans want to see a republican challenge donald trump in the primary, some polls are starting to show. we're not quite at 50% yet, but more and more republicans are saying, yeah, i'd kind of like to see another republican that i'd at least have a chance to look at. that's something we saw way back at ole miss, everybody, all the republicans were loyal to donald trump. you say, would you like to see a primary challenger? they were like, yeah, mike pence, yeah, maybe, nikki haley, yeah, maybe. i'm not so sure people aren't starting to hear that in town hall meetings at home. still ahead, susan mentioned the roger stone indictment, long time trump ally pled ng with roger mueller's russia probe and here to talk about that and other developments in the investigation. inve stigation. from the very beginning ... it was always our singular focus, to do whatever it takes, use every possible resource, to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com. appointments available now. learn more at cancercenter.com. hey. i heard you're moving into yeah, it's pretty stressful. this music is supposed to relax me, though. ♪ maybe you'd mellow out a bit if you got geico to help you with your renters insurance. oh, geico helps with renters insurance? good to know. yeah, and they could save you a lot of money. wow, suddenly i feel so relieved. you guys are fired. get to know geico and see how much you could save on renters insurance. all right. the democrats announce stacey abrams, who narrowly lost georgia's governor's race last year, will deliver the response to president trump's "state of the union" address. they were very delight when she accepted. she is weighing her next step for a possible run in 2020 against the republican from georgia. she announced it tweeting our nation needs to hear from leaders who can unite for a common purpose, i am honored to be delivering the democratic state of the union response. what do you think, susan? >> i think it was a brilliant choice for democrats to do it. she was a star in 2018, no sign of it fading. she is showing the democratic party and voters there that they care about what african-american women think. that is such a strong voting block, it really will make a difference for them in the primary and election. >> it is a fascinating thing the way our world works now, the three biggest stars to emerge from the mid-terms are people that all lost. they are all genuine stars with great candidate field. she will be player going forward. whoever the democratic nominee is, she will be on the short list to be a running mate, a person who has enormous popularity in georgia, not quite enough to win this time around, a compelling figure and someone very much in tune with the party's demographics and aspirational message at this moment. still ahead, president trump is tweeting this morning after top intel chiefs talk about things like isis, russia, north korea and more. former secretary of state, madeline albright, will be here to weigh in on that. plus, "washington post," robert costa joins us to discuss what lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are doing to try to avoid another government shutdown next month. 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"new york times" bureau chief and political reporter for the post and analyst of washington week of pbs, robert costa and national reporter carol lee is with us and msnbc contributor, noah rossman, out with a new book, "the unmaking of america". >> we have five of these for amelia for her birthday, she's so excited. >> we will get to noah's book in just a moment and the whole premise, which is quite provocative. first, america's intelligence officials appeared before the senate yesterday for its annual worldwide threat assessments hearing. their testimony was in stark contrast to the president's. >> we expect russia will continue to wage its information war against democracies. >> the whole russia thing is a hoax, a terrible hoax. >> not only have the russians continued to do it in 2018, we see an indication they're continuing to adapt their model. >> the agreement says there will be total denuclearization. nobody wants to report that. >> we currently assess north korea will seek to retain its wmd capabilities. >> we have made a lot of progressive not reported by the media. >> it is unlikely to give up its nuclear production and nuclear capabilities. >> i ended the horrible week iran nuclear deal. >> is iran abiding by the terms of the nuclear activities? >> at the moment, technically, they're in compliance. >> we have won against isis. we have beaten them and beaten them badly. while isis is nearing territorial attack in syria, the group is returning to their territorial roots. >> we're knocking the hell out of isis. >> isis continues to have thousands of fighters in syria. this morning, the president is weighing in again with his own rebuttal to his intelligence agencies. when i became president, isis was out of control in syria and running rampant. since then tremendous progress made especially over the last five weeks. caliphate will soon be destroy, unthinkable two years ago, negotiations, i think he meant are proceeding well in afghanistan after 18 years of fighting. fighting continues but the people of afghanistan want peace in this never ending war. we will soon see if talks will be successful. no testing, getting remains, hostages returned. decent chance of denuclearization. at the end of the previous administration, relationships were horrendous and very bad things were about to happen. now, a whole different story. i look forward to seeing kim jong-un soon. progress being made. you don't have to be a nuclear physicist to figure this out, the president saw the intelligence leaders refuting his entire foreign policy and back making his case not on fact but his view of the world. >> how about the man who run on a position of strength is weak time and time again. >> noah, yes, things weren't going well with barack obama and the past presidents because none of them gave him a victory without having to do anything. he's showing extraordinary weakness and they're loving it. weakness across the globe. afghanistan, the taliban. ryan crocker wrote this so-called peace treaty, it smells a lot like the paris peace accords after vietnam, that it's a complete capitulation to the taliban, who were torturing and killing young little girls for trying to seek a third or fourth grade education. it is unspeakable. the on for policy announcements of donald trump and what he's trying to do. isn't it fascinating? in every case, retreat, retreat, surrender, retreat. my greatest fear is it will be popular. we are succumbing from a level of exhaustion from engagement in foreign affairs in an extraverted fashion north korea wants to hear they're denuclearizing when they're not and we're helping the kim regime to take its place in the world and withdrawing from syria because no one wants to engage in syria but it is a necessity, where the taliban, quote unquote islamic emirate of afghanistan, and we're negotiating with them with the 2001 leadership, many of whom were released from guantanamo bay and interlocutors and they control more territory than any time since the invasion and continue -- >> this week, what has donald trump done he always accused barack obama and other past presidents of doing? showing his hand. guess what, we're retreating, getting out of afghanistan, get the troops out now and then you will start negotiations? it's like paris and negotiating with ho chi minh. >> they're negotiating from a position of strength and we're negotiating from a position of weakness. the parallels are so erie to south vietnam where we had an not guilty on the pakistani border where we can't really disrupt their operations and they're positioned very well-to-do what they did in the late 1990s and retake a lot of territory once they leave. >> i found it very interesting mitch mcconnell and a lot of republicans finally found their voice. >> came out of nowhere. >> on syria, of all things. i'm not exactly sure why that is. >> we'll take it. >> other than the fact that the position of turning syria over to vladamir putin, russia and iran, i would guess has to be unpopular with the republican base. >> when mcconnell spoke yesterday, he's been fairly quiet about donald trump after two years of the presidency. i do think after the government shutdown we're starting to see more cracks with the republicans in the senate and donald trump. it was a good thing he did yesterday. he doesn't normally speak out on foreign policy and said we're a global leader and making amendments saying he does not want precipitous withdrawal from syria and afghanistan. i think this is perhaps the beginning, always looking for a sign of a break with republicans on the hill, a public break from trump, and i think this might be the beginning. >> and after secretary mattis left, secretary mattis had written a letter saying, i don't agree with your policies. your policies are bad for america's national security. the next day, mitch mcconnell came out saying, donald trump, you need to appoint somebody that shares the same policy views with the secretary, a guy who had just attacked donald trump. >> and mitch mcconnell just speaking up, silent for 34 days of the government shutdown. i think he knows how bad it was for him and republicans, they heard about it. maybe he will rise and lift up his voice a little more. if you listen to the testimony yesterday from he heads of intelligence, a 42 page report. and what we heard from the testimony, it's sort of a wider critique of the president's world view and policy talking about unilateralism being bad for the country and trade, and straining our alliances with long time allies. if you read through the report, of president trump. >> right. what was so devastating about that the way this played out for president trump, you hear him talk about foreign policy, it's from the gut, what he thinks should be happening, how he wishes the world was functioning. and put that against these officials his appointees, going through a very fact-based analysis of the world. really contradicting him on everything, not only the status of the world, isis and north korea and syria. the problem that sets up for the president is he likes to talk about things in this wishful thinking kind of way. yet, all of the facts are lined up against him. he and others have reported for a number of weeks, north korea is just not denuclearizing. there is a clip that he says, north korea will completely denuclearize. then a decent chance they will denuclearize. there's a constant moving of the goalpost that syria was a breaking point for them. you have that, coupled with this hearing yesterday in this report. it's really hard to see the president be able to hold the line the way he has in the past two years. >> bob costa, what are you hearing on the hill, especially given polls are showing a lack of faith in the presidency, a show of faith for nancy pelosi. does this give republicans and mitch mcconnell a little bit of a place to step away from president trump, especially at times it's pretty clear the base may not approve? >> mika, there are certainly signs congressional republicans at the capitol in the last few days are trying to assert themselves, whether watching these hearings on the government shutdown and trying to prevent another standoff in mid-february. mcconnell, the republican leader trying to let the the new lawmakers control the process. they would like to see this group work a new deal. that's an important point. it's been jared kushner at the white house. and senator graham. now, congressional leaders have pulled back. we ended the shutdown, let this process play out. it's already being challenged. senator graham including his own ideas of a debt limit height. the president tweeted if there's no wall he doesn't want to deal with it and a waste of time before the committee even met. >> do you even have mitch mcconnell continuing to assert himself, basically saying, yeah, we won't allow the mule to kick us the third time. >> i think you probably do. there's a variety of reasons for that. one of the primary ones, the president's political stage, measured by public opinion polls for sure, after effects of the mid-terms, the president's standing with his party is appreciably weakened than the first two years of his term, not to say he doesn't have a strong basis point. mitch mcconnell's attitude towards trump is directly tied to how strong the president is politically. you think about the mid-terms and shutdown and risks the shutdown imposes on mitch mcconnell's members and mitch mcconnell himself all factors into how much resistance, how much assertiveness mcconnell will show going forward. mcconnell cannot afford at this moment to have another shutdown in strict political terms. i think he has already on a variety of fronts starting to push back more on trump than we've seen in the first two years of the term and you will see that more and more as trump gets weaker. >> another thing absent, as nbc news notes, the intelligence chiefs did not once mention the need for a wall along the southern border. nor did they talk about the southern border being a threat for terrorists streaming across or drugs streaming across. it didn't make it in their top 10 countdown. >> right. as we have repeatedly reported with our fact check. there is no evidence of a crisis of the southern border intelligence chief either. even this morning a few minutes ago, trump was tweeting there's these three caravans surging towards the border. here we go again, more caravans. >> but i do think when saying, we're talking about a wall we shouldn't be talking. he tweeted the phrase, unless we're talking a wall, a physical barrier. i do think there is a compromise to semantics and the democrats call it fencing and he calls it a physical barrier and he can tell his supporters it is a wall, that might be a place for compromise with semantics. >> democrats and republicans, there's just not many places left to build a wall, as we know. in most places, it's not necessary. >> what's the possibility for a compromise? >> they could come up with a compromise themselves and it's what the president will accept. we've seen before when he feels he's in retreat or handed a big defeat he lashes out. i think there are a lot of people looking to whether or not he will, the end of this deadline, decide forget it, we will fund a national emergency to get the border wall and fund the government just to get a win. i don't think anybody really knows. >> aren't we again in this spin cycle, where the president kind of walks away from the wall, doesn't get the wall funding he wanted. hears from conservatives he's a joke, caved, all these things and gets his back up again, we have to get the wall. how does this cycle end? i have to get the wall to keep my base, 30, 35%, how can he give up on that promise because that's really all he has right now? >> there is really no compromise. this is face-saving, lost in the mid-terms and looking to demonstrate who is boss. he can capture the initiative. he told ann coulter, i really don't need you. he started with $35 billion, 10, 15, 12, $5.7, talking about steel slats. if he were to call democrats out for what they said during the course of the shutdown, we want border security to the tune of new access roads along the border, more personnel reports of entry and if he were to say that at the state of the union, give me that, he would sign that, give me everything you want, i think it will split the party because democrats don't want the border initiatives and split isis. if he were to do that, put pressure on the democrats it would be the face saving. >> the 60 million people voting for him and chanting, build that wall as a central promises campaign. >> half of the media that supports donald trump at any and all turn is really not interested in the wall. it's what the protagonists want. if they want disarray, that's what they will support. >> bob, to repeat it for thousandth time, republicans were in charge two years. republicans time and again said they didn't want a wall. john cornyn said you can go up, through, or under the wall. lindsey graham said, that wall was a terrible investment. they never, when they owned washington, passed adequate funding for the wall for the president. the president didn't push for it. are we getting to a point now where this is just going to be a quaint oldie but goldie from the 2016 campaign and we can move on to actual issues that actually do impact border security? >> if republicans do choose to move on or wiggle out of this promise on the wall in some fashion, it's in part because the dynamics at the capitol have changed. think about senator david purdue of georgia, a top ally to president trump, his usual concern looking ahead to reelection in 2020, is a primary concern. that is always the concern if you're a georgia senator. now, not the same concern. stacey abrams who ran for senate in 2018 has been tapped for a response by the democrats, eyeing a possible bid in the senate. republicans are worried as they look ahead to 2020. is president trump enough to carry them across the finish line. they may have more than primary challenges to worry about even in the south. those challenges, as you think about it in the coming weeks, where do they want to put their last stand. >> elisabeth, on the front page of the "new york times," the story about kamala harris who had a wonderful launch and then made the mistake of deciding to have a hometown meeting with jake tapper and found the medicare stick ir for all sometimes comes with pitfalls for all and say medicare for all. this is not the end of her campaign. it does suggests democrats think 2020 is going to be a walk in the park and you can promise everything to everybody and coast to the nomination, you're just kidding yourself because it's not going to happen. >> kamala harris and elizabeth warren and the other progressives, now with the howard schultz and michael bloomberg are showing the real split in the democratic party, whether the party should go with a centrist moderate, joe biden or bloomberg or go with the progressive left. we don't know how it will pay out. there is a lot of passion on the progressive left, women and minorities, who can best beat donald trump and should he run for re-election, playing out as we speak. >> isn't it interesting another candidate stumbles on healthcare? this has been happening since 1992. we had hillary care, obamacare. the twists and torturous turns, back room deals with big pharma. back room deals with the hospital associations, this is such an extraordinarily complicated issue healthcare reform, the fact you can slap a bumper sticker on it and survive a 20 month campaign is really madness. it is going to continue with candidates that try to make the most complicated domestic issue of our time the easiest. >> yes. we all would like medicare for all, wouldn't we? how about also taxes on millionaires. that again is very popular among the democratic base but again that's being challenged as well. >> medicare for all, fantastic, only one problem, medicare itself is insolvent. if you look over the next 10 or 20 years, there's not a single bipartisan group that doesn't look at medicare and medicaid and say, these are the two great biggest challenges of our time. >> for other 2020 news, eric garcetti not running. >> he's a very popular guy out there. >> carol lee, thank you for being on. >> thank you. >> still ahead, madeleine albright, when she issued a warning about growing fascism she hoped her fears would prove to be exaggerated. the former secretary of state joins us to discuss where that warning stands today. 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it, you should. >> and ambassador 2011-2015, who served under president clinton. >> any relation? we said before we came on the air in conversation, we said about once a week -- said to mika, once every two weeks, okay, i get a feeling, i feel your pain what it must have been like when you were debating dr. brzezinski. the brzezinskis, the force is strong. big. >> it's definitely a term of respect. >> thank you. i'll take it as that. >> such a diplomat. >> on monday, was it monday? we talked about the dinner at dr. brzezinski's house and mrs. brzezinski's home of relations in china and the ceremony the next day. talk about that time. what an extraordinary step forward. isn't that interesting with president carter's work and dr. brzezinski's work and your work, everybody is always so hyper focused on camp david, for good reasons. it was extraordinary. this changed the world in ways that almost nothing diplomatically has changed the world over the past half century. >> it really was stunning and building on the work of dr. kissinger. what dr. brzezinski did was in fact go and normalize the relationship so it wasn't partial the way it had been in the previous administrations, we didn't have an embassy and didn't have the full spectrum of the relationship, but it was really really exciting. i had a chance to go to china before normalization with the congressional delegation. i had followed things from my little closet office outside the situation room, as all the experts were gathering and all of a sudden then they announced the normalization. deng zhao ping coming was incredible. and the decision last week of his normality and coming and dealing with the crowds and waving and being human, i had heard a lot about this dinner because i've been to the brzezinskis a lot. it was very personal, i think. that was the thing that was the big deal. it was a personal relationship that dr. brzezinski established with deng xiaoping, and it led to a different relationship. >> and jimmy carter taught all future leaders, if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. cyrus vans, sent over there and it didn't go as expected and president carter sent dr. brzezinski and things did seem to go so much better. doesn't jimmy carter get short shifted time and time again historically, when you look within a six month time period, you have the camp david accords, and the middle east peace agreement in our time. then, you have this. then, you have the opening of china. it was an extraordinary year for the carter administration. >> i think it was. it had really begun because president carter had a view what he wanted to do, the issue of human rights being central to american foreign policy. then, if i may say so, having people around him who prepared the work and who really spent time thinking about the steps that had to be taken, and the fact that people walked into the oval office in order to have conversations with president carter who asked endless questions and was fascinated by information. i always loved to -- i happened to have the opportunity to sit in on every meeting president carter had with members of congress, then also the way he understood what congress had to do, and then the relationship he had with dr. brzezinski, it was quite stunning. dr. brzezinski had president carter's head in so many ways in terms of going through issues. it was so much fun to listen how those briefings went. >> mark brzezinski, i mentioned after the passing of your dad. i've been in washington off and on over a quarter of a century. like all of us, we have been in rooms privately, where people sit and talk and muse about what might have been and what mistakes were made and how i could have won the war if they had just listened to me, i found it remarkable, that in all my private conversations with your father and all of mika's private conversations with your father, he had nothing to say but praise, offering the highest of praise for jimmy carter, despite the fact jimmy carter signed that one picture of him jogging and said, perhaps the only time we were in step together. >> absolutely. there was a great mind meld between president carter and our father. also great strategic vision. as madam secretary said, it was truly transformational, transformational not just for us in terms of containing the soviets, but china. after america normalized relations with china, 113 countries followed with their own normalization of diplomatic relations with china. it broke the political logjam for the chinese. mou's china had been isolated. deng xiaoping's china would engage the world. the result of that, 40 years later, a china and america truly more interdependent economically and even politically than the current problems with trade would suggest, which goes to the point, if things break down between the two countries, these two power houses, america and china, will both suffer. if we can get it together, like we did 40 years ago, without a formal treaty, a lot of ambiguity, remember taiwan and vietnam and cambodia, real problems in terms of our relationship with china, a lot we can do together with climate change, regional issues and beyond. >> madam secretary, we've been talking about the threat assessment by the cia, fbi and national intelligence and the ways they disagreed and contrasted on the president's views. one area they agreed on china, china remains a threat. we have indictments handed down from one of the biggest tech companies in the world. we have the tariffs of course. from where you're seated, what is the state of the relationship between the united states and china? >> i would hate to say this, complicated. there's a lot of interaction and independence. there is competition where chinese are trying to show how they can extend their power through the one belt one road. i said the chinese must be getting pretty fat because the belt keeps getting larger and larger. they are in many different places. i was just in morocco talking about what the chinese are doing throughout africa in terms of providing infrastructure and helping them with grants, et cetera. i do think they're the rising power and competitor. i think we have to deal with them. i think there is a whole series of relationships we have to take seriously because the defense strategy and national security strategy points out china is viewed as the biggest threat, kinds of things they're doing in the south china sea and potensioniality of accidents. we have to deal in a strong way what's going on with china. >> i asked the then ambassador to china. what drives the chinese government? what drives the leadership? he said, fear, fear that the economy may go, the gdp may go below 9, go below 8, now, we're down to 6, 6 1/2%. chances are good it could slow down more. are there real challenges china is going to facing internally if the economy continues to slow down? >> it does. we tend to think it's all powerful, it has a communist party and a leader named for life. they do have a variety of problems, some between what i talk about the problems at the bottom of the pyramid, divisions between rich and poor or middle class and poor. urban rural and what to do with a slowing down economy. the point is we don't do well if china's economy slows down. mark said we are interdependent in so many different ways so we have figure out how to work together. it's a fascinating relationship. you're talking about jon huntsman, i just was in china. our ambassador to china is the former governor of iowa. one of the reasons, i think for the appointment is when peng came to the united states as vice president, we all had a meeting, he talked about how much he loved iowa and what he learned in iowa. while i have some problem with ambassador appointments, this one where there really is a relationship with the former governor and peng, we have a relationship. >> you agreed to disagree on some levels, taiwan and other things, but they got there. >> they did. >> when and how did things break down and become complicated again and how did they head in that direction? >> i think secretary albright put her finger right on it. the chinese became more competitive. they are more competitive with us than the four corners of the world. i was ambassador to sweden. sweden has a better overall relationship with china than the united states. amazing, a close friendship of the friend of the united states? as they get more economically competitive, things get a little more prickly. that should not eclipse what it is we can do together. if the u.s. and china don't work together on climate change, even regional issues, whether between india and pakistan or the middle east, some of these issues are unsolvable. it's not that china's -- this is to reinforce secretary albright's point, the internal situation is complex. in 2035, there will be over 330 million chinese over the age of 65. more than the entire population of the united states currently well be senior citizens and they will expect a certain standard of living chinese have to provide. if there's anything common fears it's internal social upheaval. it's an homogenous country, they're 34% hahn but fear internal conflict. thank you. we'll talk to you soon. vladamir putin facing problems. we had to become so hyper focused on russia, looking through the limbs of a commander in chief possibly compromised by vladamir putin, we rarely have the luxury to sit back and worry about some things going on in russia that cannot only destabilize russia and the region. as frightening as vladamir putin is right now, i know you can remember a time before vladamir putin was in power, when we wondered whether the former soviets were keeping a close eye on their nuclear weapons. what are some of your bigger concerns about russia moving forward, apart from donald trump's strange relationship with vladamir putin? >> i do think one thing. to bring these two subjects together, what the chinese are doing is using nationalism to motivate their people because they felt they were disrespected. they need to have that tool of nationalism to keep people working hard and to keep them regime focused. the russians are doing the same thing. what is interesting, i did a survey in russia in '91, i'll never forget this man who stood up in a focus group and said, i'm so embarrassed. we used to be a super power. now, we're bangladesh with missiles. what happens is putin is playing off that nationalist card in terms of he was going to make russia great again. we have to watch -- one of the things i talk in my book, patriotism is one thing. hyper nationalism is very very dangerous. it is what allows leaders to make decisions that go contrary to what people in their country want or national, their real interests. the thing that worries me about this is that the russians are playing a weak hard -- a week hand very very well. we can't forget putin is a kbg agent and knows how to do that. we are playing strong hand very poorly and that's one of the in this we need to speak about. >> we had more news this morning, secretary albright, about another meeting with vladamir putin and president trump, 15 minutes or so but again with no advisors or translators. can you advise us, as someone who's been in those meetings so many times how unusual it is? >> i think it's totally unusual and really dangerous. i do know from my own experience how much work it takes to have a meeting, all the preparations by the government to get it together, brief the president, do all kinds of things. then, you need to know what actually happens in the meeting, so if there is decisions made, they can be carried out. i teach a course on decision making at georgetown. it is hard to make a decision today. if there's nobody in the meeting except the russian translator. by the time, the translators are key to diplomacy. the way they do it, the way one depends on them, even if you know the language. having them there and then having another person there, note taker, if for no other reason, to carry out the decision. this is operating in a parallel yurps that makes it very difficult to know what happened. it is more than unusual. i think it is something very damaging to the way we do and should make policy. parallel universe. >> can i ask you about russia you talk about in the book. one of the great tragedies for dr. brzezinski, in then final years of his life geopolitically, what was happening in poland. you have the polish leadership, of course, showing more disrespect for the rule of law and independent judicial system than even donald trump here in america. why is this happening in poland? what is happening in hungary? what is happening in central america and can the next president of the united states be a republican, end or democrat, be it a republican, what can they do to turn that around? >> we had hopes generally after the end of the cold war, the thought if democracy was understood and that there were various parts of the rule of law and elected leaders, it would be easier than it has turned out to be. partially, there is this sense -- again, some has to do with the economy. why is it not shared, some of the wealth? why all of a sudden privatization led to oligarches and corruption. by the time, i am going over to poland in a couple of months to give a speech in honor of brzezinski. he has been and is much the love there. we didn't have a chance to talk about the most recent horrors in poland and hungary. we spent a lot of time of the importance of getting the countries in nato. it is not just a military alliance, political alliance. that part is not being honored. i think he would be horrified what is happening in terms of how the government is treating the judiciary. what i think, and i hope this continues, there's beginning to be some protests in poland. >> there are. >> people who disagree. same thing is happening in hungary. there is a lot to look at. poland studied it so much, had revolts every 10 years and people wanted freedom. it has been suppressed. we need to pay attention. i will give a pretty tough speech. >> i'm so excited to hear about that. >> madam secretary, i wanted to briefly touch on the crisis in venezuela. i want to see how you engage the trump administration's handling so far of the effort to isolate and essentially, i believe, depose maduro and his regime, and what do you believe are the prospects for the worst case scenario, probably looming very large on policymakers, oil, drugs, weapons, paramilitary organizations on the border and burgeoning national refugee crisis and how can we stave that off? >> i did write in my book as a very authoritarian government is something we have to be concerned about. partially, i met chavez when he first came in, he came in as a result of a coup. people thought he would take the oil wealth and distribute it to the people. instead, he took his own path of really becoming a very authoritarian leader. maduro is trying to carry it on. there were elections there's real thought had not been carried out fairly. what is happening is fascinating in terms of the leader of the national assembly thinking and saying he is more legitimate. to a great extent he is. i think the united states is playing a mixed role, i might say. supporting what is happening is important and it is certainly also being supported by countries in latin america, the lima group, for instance, is saying what is happening in venezuela is wrong and it needs to be supported. there was an emergency meeting of the u.n. security council. what i'm concerned about is talking about military action. i think there needs to be other ways to be supportive and understand the people of venezuela deserve better than what happened under chavez and maduro. it's kind of interesting, one of the few times this administration has not identified with the strong man. i think it's worth looking at what the pressures are. i'm worried about our diplomats. what i do find interesting is the action by the latin-american countries and by canada kind of saying there needs to be another election. they have to look at their constitution. venezuela is important to how latin america goes and the humanitarian crisis is stunning. we've been talking about migrants and people and people flowing out of venezuela into the other countries is something we have to worry about. >> former secretary of state, madeleine albright, always great to have you on the show. thank you so much. her book, "fascism," a warning is now out. >> and mika always -- >> she is right. it is a big warning still. how does it play out today? >> i'm concerned about it. one of the best quotes in the book really is attributed to muso linney. if you pluck a chicken one feather at a time, nobody notices, but there is a lot of feather plucking going on at the moment. >> every single day. thank you so much. >> alex is going on, but alex keeps saying we have to let you go. i will say, though, isn't it heartening to see the intel chiefs yesterday, appointed by donald trump, confirmed by a republican senate, ignore all of his pressure and loyalty and actually tell it straight to congress and the american people? >> this is why i have faith in democracy. if we speak up and support those telling the truth, i think we will stop the feather plucking. >> still ahead, thank you so much, secretary albright. still ahead, acting attorney general, matthew whittaker, said this week the russia probe would be wrapping up soon. he looks really nervous about it. >> we will ask intel chief, adam schiff, what he thinks about it? "morning joe" back in two minutes. oe" back in two minutes. joining us now, democratic adam schiff. is the mueller investigation close to wrapping up? is that correct? >> i don't know if it is correct. i do know matt whitaker should not have anything to do with the investigation. that was the opinion of the ethics lawyer at the justice department. he's ignoring that. bob mueller is capable to speak for himself. for one thing our witnesses, telling them the investigation is almost over and if they waited out, they may be able to wait out the special counsel is not helpful. i think matt whitaker should keep his mouth shut and have nothing to do with this. i do look forward to his aexperience before the judicial committee and i hope to find out whether he's been briefing the president at the white house defense team which . >> roger stone was arrested and indicted on seven counts yesterday and pleading not guilty to those charges. how significance of roger stone in your investigation? >> one of the thread involves with the interaction between the trump campaign and the russian cut out like guccifer and wikileaks which was the publishing arm of russians for their hacking materials. why all the lies about these contacts and the indictment charges, roger stone, with several eyes before our committee. efforts to intimidate and prevent other witnesses to tell the truth. why go to all that trouble as to roger stone -- it does not add up. >> congressman schiff, it seems that there is such a gap between the president and his intel chiefs. does that play into questions that you would have in the committee. i have never seen anything like this. have we ever before? >> i don't think we have seen anything like this. we are going to be doing deep dives into many of the issues that were raised in the testimony yesterday. the contradictions between our intelligence agency, what they have to say for north korea plan to denuclearize or the status of i.c.e. or elsewhere and what the president have been promoting. it is obviously very important that the american people understand the truth and what we know and the country. i will say this also that blairing absences that you talked about earlier that none of the intel chiefs brought up a threat at the border. that can be exhibit a in a challenge of a national emergency. none of the intelligence agencies think it is an emergency. congress on both part don't think this is an emergency. i think if anything it is going to undermine that legal case that the president may try to make that dealing with yesterday can be a central exhibit. >> what's the status of michael cohen testifying and what would be the importance of it? what can he offer? >> he'll be testifying on october 8th, he can offer insights into a few things of the committee before. the trump tower moscow deal. mika, this is all in the public record of what we get to know of michael cohen and find details around it. during the presidential campaign of the presumptive republican nominee while deny any dealings are the russians was trying to make what would have been the most lucrative deal of his life. something that special counsel would have said what have made trump's family hundreds of millions of dollars and at the same time he was advocating something that would make billions for russia. all this is going on at the same time, roger stone and others are trying to get russian help and russians are offering the help at trump tower in new york. all of this is contemporaneous. micha michael cohen can shed lights on that and in terms of money laundering. mattis testimony can be valuable indeed. >> william barr is on hold. republicans say they are concerned, what report if any if congress has if that raps. >> i am pleased to see republicans speak up for the first time that this mueller report needs to be made public and bill barr should give us a clip note portion of it. we can subpoena for the report. we can also i think pass legislation, looks like this bipartisan report and make sure it is public. at the end of the day, this public is going to see what's in this report. i want to point out over the last two years and this is something i raise as recently as yesterday against the justice department, they provided tens of thousands of pages discovery to congress about the clinton e-mail investigation. you are setting a precedent that when the mueller investigation is over, you are going to provide answers for discovery. that goes on way beyond the mueller report. >> congressman adam schiff, thank you for being on this morning. >> it appears that president trump keeps finding way to meet with russian vladimir putin. the two spoke on the sideline at the g-20 summit last year without a note taker or a translator from the united states. that new report is next on "morning joe." oe." was so frustrating. my skin... it was embarrassing. my joints... they hurt. the pain and swelling. the tenderness. the psoriasis. tina: i had to find something that worked on all of this. i found cosentyx. now, watch me. real people with active psoriatic arthritis are getting real relief with cosentyx. it's a different kind of targeted biologic. cosentyx treats more than just the joint pain of psoriatic arthritis. it even helps stop further joint damage. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms. if your inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. serious allergic reactions may occur. i got real relief. i got clearer skin and feel better. now, watch me. get real relief with cosentyx. is russia still targeting the u.s. mr. president? >> the whole russia thing is a hoax. it is a terrible hoax. >> not only the russians continue to do it in 2018 but we have seen indications that they continue to adapt their model. >> the agreement says there will be total denuclearization, nobody wants to report that. >> north korea will seek to retain its capabilities. >> we have made a lot of progress that had not been reported by the media. >> it is unlikely to completely give out its nuclear weapons and production capability. >> i ended the horrible week of iran nuclear deal. >> is iran abiding by the term of the jcpao in terms of nuclear activities? >> we have won against isis. >> we have beaten them badly. >> while isis in near territorial defeat in iraq, the group is returning to its gorilla group. >> isis still commands thousands of fighters in iraq and syria. >> a lot of contrasts between donald trump and verses what america's top official had to say yesterday of the worldwide threat assessment hearing. as nbc news notes the intelligence chief did not want to mention the need for the wall along for the southern border which president trump has portrayed as the single most pressing need facing the country. >> what specifically are you talking about here national security threat to america, they did not talk about the wall or the caravans, crossings. again, it has been going down for well over a decade that illegal drugs owe them that which you can shift. >> oh please. >> and go to legal ports of entry. >> yeah. custom act. >> but, it is -- willie, what's so fascinating is what donald trump said is more in line of what vladimir putin said and what he would say on all of those issues as oppose to america's di and military and american leaders have one view of the world, vladimir putin has another view of the world. if you look at those issues yesterday, donald trump is lining up closer to vladimir putin than they do with the head of the fbi, the cia and the director of national intelligence. all republicans who donald trump appointed. >> yes, the view of russia's threat to the united states, ongoing threat has been consistent with our intelligence agency from the beginning. president trump has been in contact for years with them. we talk a lot on the show of institution holding and what it means in the age of trump. we saw the head of the cia and director of national intelligence sitting at an open hearing and signaling to the american people in the world that we still got this. we know what the real threats are in this country and here they are despite what the president says. >> we have our msnbc and co-host and show time, john hyman. >> by the way, the part of the circus that you tweeted of roger stone melting down when you were bringing up certain issues with him is worth noting or worth looking at. >> with a flashlight inside his foamy mouth. >> a major melt down. >> also with us is republican strategist, politico analyst, susan and cofounder and ceo, jim vanderhye. >> billionaires are going wild and freaking out of elizabeth warren's tax plan. >> willie, to vanderhye here and axios had a huge year last year >> wow, congratulations. >> it is really not fair when you look at their income streaming compares to other media platforms because half of their $25 million in revenue the past year as it always does comes from the mike ellen's swim suit calendar. >> i didn't know where that was going. >> hell i am not going to get any sleep. >> vanderhye, you guys have holograms and the calendars itself and -- >> we have the fancy backdrop, do you see that? >> yes. >> it is not those rich mohaghany bookcases. >> okay, can we do the news. you are talking about trump aligning with putin a lot more. >> the white house acknowledged that president trump and russian vladimir putin informally met in buenos aires at the g-summit. their meeting included no american personnel. >> this is almost like a trend here. like a fear that the president of the united states, a fear, the president of the united states ever have americans listening to his conversation with vladimir putin. >> almost. >> it happens all the time. >> so in november he cancelled his meeting with putin due to russia's prok svacative capturef ships and sailors. according to the financial times, the leaders huddled for seven minutes at the end of an evening event with no translator or note taker from the u.s. side to record what was said. why is it that the translator from the american side. why is it that it is always the translator of vladimir putin never a translator for the american side. >> because president trump does not trust the intel community and his own staff. this goes back to jared kushner wanting to back channel with the russians after the election. this is something he always wanted to have as an open line of communication. he has now said i will find it and he does not care if he's not updating his security team or his intel team. that's what's also what's so good about yesterday's hearing. those members of the intel committee says we are going to be honest and straightforward with the american public and we are not afraid of donald trump. >> and they lied time and time again. i remember -- i said this before. march of 2017, asking to offset quietly all around. this was when the whole russia thing first started to percolate. >> who's in trouble? don jr. for one. what? does he not have a hunting license in idaho? of course you and mark and some others did some extraordinary reporting of all these contacts with russians that donald trump and the whole team have been lying about now for two years. >> it is pretty amazing. just the extent of it, we have seen reporting of cataloging of how much it has been. back to susan's point, i saw a darker spin on this. yes, donald trump does not trust his intelligence committee. what's more precisely, donald trump does not want anybody on the american side to know what he's talking about with vladimir putin. there is a reason why american presidents, even one-on-one in the past, they do one-on-one meetings, they always have someone from their side there because the rest of the government needs to know what's said in that meeting and to be able to keep later accounts of it. for whatever reason or whatever he's talking about with vladimir putin is stuff he does not want any americans to know about. that raises all kinds of, it is slightly a chilling thing that this happens every time he meets with putin, it is not reporting initially and not read out to the press. he has no one from the american government ever present. that pattern is truly unsettling. >> the pattern have been with us for a very long time. you remember when he's invited in the foreign minister and the russian ambassador of the united states to brag about the fa ct that he would fire jim comey and they did not have anything to worry about anymore. he exploded american reporters from that meeting but allowed russians in. >> yeah, i have got a lot of friends and family members who are like wait, other presidents have done this, didn't obama did it one time with putin? no, is the answer. no time in history one of our leaders met with an adversary multiple times where nobody on the american side taking any notes or telling the people in the government what actually transpire. it is just plain weird. you guys are talking about the idea that you guys had the intelligence community and the a invict apparatus of the government saying the opposite of -- again, it does not happen and never happened with this level of consistency where they break based on data and intelligence of what the president says rhetorically in public. those two things may not be impeachable or enough to move trump voters but they are just plain weird and they break from historical pr historical precedents. >> these are all republicans and all appointed by donald trump christoph christopher wray as we heard yesterday was suggested by chris christ christie. dan coats, republican ambassador and republican through and through also picked by donald trump, confirmed. these are all republicans who were saying it was the president telling you it is just a lie. what the president is telling you is not what's happening in the world. it is happening time and time again. even the dhs secretary said that vladimir putin and russia post a direct threat to american democracy. she said it under testimony and she said it on capitol hill. >> seriously? >> he keeps denying and denying what everybody in his government and the military are saying. >> so some more details from this report not independently confirmed by nbc news cites people who have direct knowledge of the encounter or briefed on it claims the discussion occurred at the theater as world leaders and spouses were guests streaming out of the building. president trump accompanied by his wife melania but no staff. while putin was accompanied by his translator. the four of them sat at the table and were among the last to leave. a russian government official tells the finance right latimese two leaders spoke about 15 minutes about a number form of number policies including the conflict in syria and ukraine and they also discuss when they can have a formal meeting the official says. the white house declined further comment. still ahead on "morning joe," it is elizabeth warren verses america's wealthiest. two presidential rivals who happen to be billionaires are knocking the senator's new tax proposal. you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. i used to book my hotel room on those travel sites but there was always a catch. like somehow you wind up getting less. but now that i book at hilton.com, and i get all these great perks. i got to select my room from the floor plan... very nice... i know, i'm good at picking stuff. free wi-fi... laptop by the pool is a bold choice... and the price match guarantee. how do you know all of this? 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[ chuckles ] you'd cry. look, look, look, look, look, look, look,. maybe even laugh while crying. what the fertilizer? sounds pretty great, right? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! just say, "add epix" and it can all be yours. it's easy to upgrade. and you don't want to miss out on everything epix. i am seriously thinking of running for president. >> that's right. howard schultz could be running for president for 2020 or as they call it starbucks venti-venti. >> swrojoining us now howard schultz, a journey to reimagine the promise of america. msnbc mike barnicle is joining us with the conversation as well. howard, i am still addicted to my coffee. >> i think we need a little decalf this morning. >> oh, i always have the two shots and i can't help myself. >> so, talk about the first couple of days getting out there and getting the message. >> i must be doing something right to create so much interests and backlash from the democratic party. some of it is a surprise. we expected to see some of the level -- but not to the extent. on "60-minutes," i seriously said i am seriously considering to run as president as an in na independent. all of the issues that the current government both parties have been unwilling and unable to solve, whether a democrat wins a presidency or donald trump gets re-elected, i hope not. nothing is going to change. >> let me ask you this. >> how did you get to the point of thinking hey, maybe this is going to happen. you know obviously mike bloomberg has been thinking about this for a long time and has tons of money. he always concluded every time you look at it that you could not get to 270 and whatever political party in the house of representatives would select their candidate as a president. >> i respect mike bloomberg, he's not the proxy for what's dpoing going to happen for 2020. what did i see? what i see for the last three or four or five presidential elections, only 8 to 10 battleground states are pretty much controlled or predicted. who's going to be president? >> what if the possibility of an independent person can capture the imagination of the 42% people who affiliate themselves as an independent which is more than either party and what if republicans and democrats lifelong are looking for home, they're not going to vote for left wing elizabeth warren or kamala harris and they don't want to reelect donald trump. what if for the first time in 40 years, the 50 states which i am on every ballot really matters instead of 8 to 10 battleground state controlling who's going to be president. >> say we get rid of the electoral college. >> let me finish. if we precede, we'll be on the ballot of every state and we have done that work and we can get to 270 because all 50 states will matter and not 8 to 10. >> i have done the work and spent the last year to look at this clearly. bloomberg is not my proxy. a democrat is not going to be able to -- all of a sudden the government is going to start working, nothing's working. i believe just imagine the mandate that if an independent person can get elected, if i was fortunate enough to win the presidency, the power that people is speaking that we can transform the government finally and get people. >> mike bloomberg is not our proxy. willie and i keep on asking him to have some of his money. >> howard, there are two strains of the criticism. you have not gotten into the race yet. the one strain is what we heard from bloomberg who says, howard, i respect you but you can't win. the other strain, he's the master mind behind this. quote, "he can't win and damage our ability to beat donald trump, he should either run as a democratic or spend his money that'll not ruin the world." why not run as a democrat? we know you are a democrat. you supported hillary clinton. >> you are no longer a democrat? >> no, i don't affiliate myself as a democrat party who is so far left and wants the government to take over and free clench to everybody and the government to give everyone a job. it is basically $40 trillion on the balance sheet of $21.5 trillion. what can we do? what we need is comprehensive tax reform. what we need is sensible solutions to immigration. all of these things can't happen under the current environment. now, i have also been criticized for being a billionaire. i am self-made, i grew up in the project of brooklyn, new york. i thought that was the american's dream, the aspiration of america. you are going criticize me? elizabeth warren wants to criticize me for being successful? > >> no. >> let me follow up on that. the criticism is not that you want to run for president. the criticism is that if you do run in this middle lane where votes are so precious as we saw last time, you can steal just enough to cause democratic the election. >> it is not true. >> why not make the argument you made within the democratic primary. >> i do not believe what the democratic party stand for and the american people. not the people in washington or the people in new york, the american people want a change. the american people realize the government is not working. it is not a statistic that 40% of american people don't have $400 in the bank or five million kids in america are not in school. those are not statistics. those are people. >> not all democrats want medicare. you are citing kamala harris. why could you not get the democratic race and make the case as a center democrat. >> i think the country needs transformation. the government needs to be disrupted. it is not working. how much evidence do you have? give me one thing and show me one thing which you can say firmly. the government is really working. the shutdown of the government for months, 800,000 people not working. what's working? i spent the last five years spending time with veterans and hiring veterans and understanding their issues and giving money veterans. i went to the va, do you know what the budget is for the va? take a guess? >> i don't have a number. >> $40 billion. >> $200 billion, the va. it is a tragic. there is nothing working in the government. why should we vote in a democratic and/or republican to discontinue the broken system. >> you don't think you can disrupt it the way donald trump disrupts it? he found that as a vessel to get in the white house. >> i am not saying you want to behave as he does as president but it was a way in the white house. >> what i am going to try to do is go out to the american people and ignite a powerful movement. i believe not just people in new york or d.c., i am hearing from thousands saying finally, someo someone's voice that i can relate to. >> that's what they said donald trump. >> i am not donald trump. i run the company for 26 years. >> you just said howard. i don't believe what the democratic party stands for. give me five issues that the democratic party stand for that you don't agree with? >> i just gaive you three? >> government taking over healthcare, free college for everyone and the democrats and republicans under the last 20 years on both parties have been complicit in creating a $21.5 trillion debt. that's a reckless and immoral abandonment of leadership. the republican or democrats are not trusted by the american people. the problem in america is that we have no leadership that's trusted, the dignity and respect of the oval office is gone and republicans and democrats no longer represent the essence of the people. i am thinking of running for president as a center independent. if you agree with me, i am dpoing to provide you an opportunity. i strongly believe there is an opportunity and a large people, the silent majority who wants a voice of somebody who's going to represent them. >> you do realize that many people registered as an independent and yet they still tilt one way or another. >> they never had a legitimate choice. >> they have not? >> ross perote. >> don't forget about my story. i am a self-made person. i like bloomberg, i hope he runs for president. i think it will be great for america. i came from the project, the empathy and compassion that i have for all those people who are being left behind israel. >> when people say to me, you are a billionaire? yeah. but i am part of what i thought was the prospect of the promise of america, work hard and great opportunity, your station life does not define you? that's me. >> let's move from the decision to running as an independent and concerns someone have as your candidacy and messaging. let's say you decide to run for president. three questions, what qualifies you to be the president of the united states? >> what qualifies me is my life experience. people are going to think it is my starbucks experience. it is what i have learned along the way and sharing you can access and recognizing every business decision is not an economic one. it is a real understanding that somebody that is to restore the promise of america and what qualifies me is that i will be a leader of the country of all american people, the people will trust and admire because i will understand. i have walked in their shoes. i am on both sides of the equation. i am somebody who was successful or somebody that came from the projects and i understand the american people. >> who is the best republican president in the past 50 year ss? >> a great respect for ronald reagan and all the wonderful things he did that really struck me compares to the current person who's despicable in the oval office. ronald reagan never took off his jacket for 80 years, why? the respect and dignity of the office. >> fdr. >> how much does an 18 ounce box of cheerios costs? >> i don't know. >> budget for the va, we can ask you questions for that. >> i don't need cheerios. >> it is four bucks. . >> did the four of you think there should be a government take over of the healthcare system? >> i am glad you are asking questions so i can ask you the question back. again, talking elizabeth miller, everybody makes a mistake. you go out and you talk about how you are going to save healthcare. if it fits on a bumper sticker, you are going to have a long ride. barack obama saw it with obamacare. by the end he was having to make deals with big pharma and associations. it was an ugly process. where do we take obamacare from here? what do we take the affordable care act from here? and how do you do it? not just because you are an independent and you will sprinkle magic dust on washington, d.c. how do you get republicans and democrats buy into a healthcare plan that can fix the country. when we are talking about money, one o f the outrageous things here is we spend more money per patient than any country in the world and we still have single moms with their kids at 11:30 at night in an emergency room using the e.r. as their primary healthcare provider. it is immoral. it is a disgrace. we are still going bankrupt p putting on healthcare. >> did you know my personal health story? >> no, we never talked about it. >> my father fell on a sheet of ice with fire. i experienced as a 7-year-old boy what happened when no health insurance and worker's compensation, we had jewish family services delivering food to our apartment when we are out of luck. i experienced the shame and fear of no healthcare. that's why i built the kind of company that my father never got a chance for it and put healthcare in the place of starbucks. >> is healthcare a fundamental right for every american? >> yes. every american should have the right for affordable healthcare. >> i thought the affordable care act is the right thing to do. b >> i am remined and specifically premiums have gone up. what do we need to do? no republicans and democrats are going to be able to come together and solve this problem. that's self evident. going back to what i said earlier, can you imagine given the fact that it is never done before that an independent person like myself, a rag to ri richess story could possibly be the president of the united states. we want change. >> but what kind of change? you sit down and you got mitch mcconnell here and nancy pelosi there, you look at them, here is the deal. we dpgot to fix our healthcare system. nancy, what's your idea? how do we do this? >> we bring in what i have done my entire career, people smarter than myself with skills and experience beyond mitch mcconnell and nancy pelosi in the room, get private enterprise in the room and realize we all need to have skin in the game. corporations need to do more for their employees like starbucks did. we demonstrated that you can be profitable and provide healthcare. >> the healthcare steal business base. >> not only but partially. we have to realize what's wrong of the political system is pharma has many special sbrel interests in the nra. i am not playing by those rules anymore. i am going to break the log jam. pharma is going to negotiate with the government and we'll have complete transparency. if you don't, we are coming after you. >> let's stick with healthcare packages, healthcare and income of equality, what will you do to restore the union of this country? >> unions arrived in america because there were a lot of bad actors. unions have arrived on the scene because companies were not doing the right thing for their employees. they're also very good at companies in america and good management in america who recognize that we have to share success that not every business decision is an economic one. unions have a role to play. the answer to in equality is comprehensive tax reform. i was outraged when president trump gave a free ride to corporations of 21% tax rate. that was wrong, especially wrong when we did nothing to help the people who needed most. we need comprehensive tax reforms. >> capital gains. >> everything needs to be looked at in a fairway. >> you were opposed to the trump's tax cut? >> yes, 100%. i was public about that. now we are going to see this. >> one quick question and we got to go to break. >> this is rapid fire. >> this is going great. >> it is called hazing. >> you need to come here everyday. i am curious, so much of what's driving the american politics is impacted by 2008, of course, the collapse. >> yes. >> do you think, forget any sort of populous strand. don't you think some more people who are responsible for that crash should have gone to jail? >> yes. >> don't you think it is a crime that we have kids that spends time in jail for smoking pot and you got people that destroy american lives and have wiped out their lifelong earnings and they never spend a day in prison. >> yes, who's responsible for that? the people who are in power. the leaders of the government, the republicans and the democrats. >> and, and, the people that were running the banks and the investment firms. >> agree. >> that were milking the system. >> but who's responsible for not putting those people in jail? >> it was the leader of the government. >> so you would. >> absolutely. the status quo is not working and the leaders of both parties are doing one thing, based on self interest. i know you will get to the book which i love. if you are democratic or republican today and you just want to go five inches away from the ideology of the party, you know this, you are out. >> it is unbelieverabable. >> it is like the god father, you never get credit. >> senator warren put out a plan. you call that plan ridiculous. we show a poll earlier in the show. >> well, if that plan was put in place, it probably can fund the government a day or two. that's not the answer. the answer is let's take a step back after this. let's not send out a tweet or press release that does not make news. let's get serious people around the table and solve this problem once and for all which is comprehensive tax reform. >> do you think elizabeth warren is a serious person? >> yes, she is a serious person. she came to me a few years ago asking for contribution? >> did you give it to her? >> no. i did not. i don't believe the country should head to socialism. >> do you think she's a socialist? >> she's a smart woman, i respect her. this is not personal. i just don't agree with her. >> we need to have that conversation another time. >> you need to come back. >> i have to leave already? >> we got another segment. >> you need to try cheerios. i lough love cheerios. >> i am a yoga guy. >> we need you to come back. >> i would say it right now. if you come here and said i am running as a democratic then every headline of tomorrow would be you fill the space of joe biden and you would be the candidate to watch out for. right now the question is if joe biden runs, are you guys fighting? >> i think it would be great for the country if biden runs or bloomberg runs. i think it will be a wonderful opportunity and exchange. >> you are exactly right. did the same people predicting that donald trump would never be elected as president of the united states. >> nobody knows nothing. >> i know one thing, i love america and i want to try to fix the problem and the people that's left behind. >> howard schultz. >> his book "from the ground up" is out now. i want to do a big talk on comprehensive reform. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." rning joe. ♪ rning joe. not long ago, ronda started here. and then, more jobs began to appear. these techs in a lab. this builder in a hardhat... ...the welders and electricians who do all of that. the diner staffed up 'cause they all needed lunch. teachers... doctors... jobs grew a bunch. what started with one job spread all around. because each job in energy creates many more in this town. energy lives here. ron! soh really? 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[ring]n do this. here we go! discover. hi. i like your card. i love all the cashback and security features, but i'm not going to pay an annual fee. i'm just not going to do it! okay. okay? discover has no annual fee on any of our cards. so it wasn't my tough guy act? no. we just don't have any annual fees. that's a relief. i've been working on that for a long time. if we had talked a month ago, that would have been a whole different call. i can imagine. excuse me, sir. can i please have no annual fee? no annual fee on any card. only from discover. editor of commentary magazine noah rothman, author of the new book "unjust social justice and the unmaking of america." with us also for this conversation is the author and nbc news political analyst and girdardis. did i say it. >> you're getting 3% or 4% better on an annual basis. >> we're almost there. >> ski. you don't say it correctly. i'm just wondering if i'm saying it closer to how you say it. >> this is the ultimate mansplaining but go ahead. >> here's how you say your name. >> your name. because i'm too many stupid to say anything more than two syllables. so tell us about your buck "unjust." >> social justice as we understand is a malleable term. most americans think it's a framework for fairness and a just society and writing historical grievances. it was once that. it has become something much different did, the anti-thesis of the pursuit after blind objective justice. its adherents have confused a pursuit of repairtive form of justice with a form of justice much more retributive. it has become hostile to notions like color blindness, like individual agency and merit. presumption of innocence. fundamental notions of common law english common law. this is a fundamental outgrowth of an i tentitarian philosophy which is shared by right and left. the extremes on both sides share more in common than they do. >> you bring out that donald trump has basically brought white identity politics to the republican party. >> certainly. >> in a way that republicans always complained seemed to hamper democrats. >> the side of the equation on the left that proceeds itself to be the lightened arbiters of animus are making the same argument. appealing to power sources, to the state for redress, for historical grichess and the two don't seem to realize they're reflexes of one another. >> knowia, we've had cultural flash points that probably illustrate your point. give us a concrete example of what you're talking about that people remember and relate to. >> the notion of the right to be believed which was something that hillary clinton endorsed with regard to the claims of sexual assault victims was perceived to be addressing a historical grievance and rooted fundamentally in social justice theory which holds that the united states has such misogyny engrained in its institutions they cannot adjudicate claims like this. >> when you say the right to be believed, what are you saying? >> that a sexual assault survivor deserves not just impartial but deference to their claims which is antithetical to the information justice. we had high profile examples of why that was unjust, but the ones that never make the headlines were the students who were made victims by the title 9 reforms under the obama era. both accusers and accused deprubed of their fifth and sixth amendment rights as a result that american institutions is cannot adjudicate these claims fairly as a result of historical grievances dating back thousands of years. this is a conceptual understanding of what the american idea is. >> anand, are you here because you were the co-author of this book? i'm joking. your turn too it is so fascinating we're having a conversation about the problems of identity politics at a table with five men. >> well, to tell you the truth, mick cag -- >> i understand it may have been her choice. >> she was offended by my hair and asked if she could leave. >> i don't blame her. there are excesses in every cultural wave when you have a rightist cultural wave, there's excesses. when you have a market kind of philosophy that entrenches itself there are excesses as well as good things. you may be right that there are excesses in the current wave of culture around identity. you can't start there. right. >> what is extraordinary that is happening in our time, the things you reflexively push back against is a real awakening at the heart of american discourse and the mainstream of american discourse about experiences of what it is like to be a woman, to be black, what it has been like to be an immigrant, to be a muslim that were not part of the discourse. as indian american growing up in this country, there were experiences i've gone through that only now do i realize were absolutely because of how i look and i didn't have that language 15 years ago going through those things. that language now exists. it's very easy to sit and say this is all looking at people by group and this and that, but i'll give you an example of me, too. when the movement happened, a lot of guys treated it as an opportunity to say what are these people saying and women are kind of nagging us. i took it as even if you've never done the weinstein kind of things reading the testimonies of all these women, wow, there was a lot of stuff i never saw coming up as a man. when faced with these cries for justice, there are some people whose reflex is to say i don't want my perch to be invaded. and there are others and i think it's a wiser course to say there's probably things i haven't seen, there's probably realities of other people i haven't experienced. >> that i can never understand as a man. >> certainly. >> and before you answer, i'd like to tack on to what anand just said. years of sitting in municipal could yours waiting for a case to be called you were going to write about, you quickly come to the conclusion about justice in america that it involves added stripped down to its model two things. the color of money and the color of the defendant's skin. >> i think that's frankly an unfair reading of the american judicial system and the thousands of years of history that have create rad the english common law concepts upon which it is built. this is the foundation of enlightenment. >> and black and brown peoples. that's something you've suffered in family and friends closely? have you dealt with that? >> well, i've experienced life in america. >> not that life. >> powers of ideas transcend the power of identity in many ways. not to say in this book goes at lepg to say it is adjudicating the claims of legitimate racial and historical grievances even systemic grievances which do exist beyond the scope of any one book. this is adjudication of illegitimate claims to regression, it is the notion that besign ghettoization that some sort of a form of justice owing to mere demographic traits and accidents of birth is progress strikes me as nine. it is regression on a scale that should be resistive who has attachment to the american ideals. >> it seems like you may be actually to use begyneghettoization. >> the idea that we can create safe spaces for individuals of different racial, ethnic, demographic traits to prevent "uncomfortable learning" which is something members of the faculty are saying is something students need. that's not something i think is advancing any sort of justice. it is creating grievance-based and small-mindedness communities that are definitely not part of the american experience as i understand it. i don't think we'll have a good outcome for the american social compact. >> let's do this. are you around tomorrow? >> i think i am. >> are you just hanging out tomorrow? can you hang out here tomorrow? >> sure can. >> that would be good. why don't we do this. expand it longer. mika will be here. and we'll have many other people here. this will be the united. >> producers scrambling right now. >> i'll do one other thing too, which is we'll find a conservative that will actually agree with you because i will say ideologically you're outnumbered here. i'm a host. i'm always right down the middle. >> you're kind of elapsed. >> i've lapsed in so many ways. i know i'm killing you alex. the more you talk in my ear, the harder you make it for me to land the plane. i've got to land the plane. i'm joking. let's do this tomorrow. let's give it 30 minutes because this is such an extraordinary conversation. and you all have said so many words that i don't even understand. i'm going to have to look them up. >> i'll send you a memo
proof that mike pence can read the papers. a not so thinly veiled effort by his aides to keep him clear of the wreckage over ukraine. the problem with that is mike pence was also involved with ukraine and the questions are mounting over what he knew and when he knew it. but wait, there's more. rudy giuliani has been communicating with paul manafort through an attorney on the topic of ukraine. all of it as "the 11th hour" gets under way on a wednesday night. and good evening once again from our headquarters in new york. day 986 of the trump administration and the president is clearly deeply troubled by the escalating impeachment inquiry headed his way. we've seen him invoke witch hunts and hoaxes just this week but today it all came out while the president of finland was next to him. >> we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. he's a shifty, dishonest guy, who, by the way, was critical of the one of the great secretary of states of states. he couldn't carry -- you know, there's an suppression. he couldn't carry his blank strap. he should resign from office in disgrace and frankly, they should look at him for treason. they've been trying to impeach me from the day i got elected. i've been going through this for three years. he either got it totally wrong, made it up or the person giving the information to the whistle-blower was dishonest. and this country has to find out who that person was, because that person is a spy, in my opinion. nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like -- you know, she has to approve it. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take them. believe it or not, i watch my words very carefully. there are those who think i'm a very stable genius. i watch my words very, very closely. >> before we heard that, trump slammed the democrats for, quote, wasting everyone's time and energy on bs, the polite form of the word he used. there is no reporting on this story, involving trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani and trump campaign chairman paul manafort because actually it's been months since we heard his name. he's currently in the slammer as a federal inmate. "the washington post" reports giuliani has told them that in recent months he has, quote, consulted several times with manafort through the federal prisoner's lawyer in pursuit of information that would bolster his story that the real story of 2016 is not russian interference to elect trump but ukrainian efforts to support hillary clinton. the post adds that it's all still about mueller. the alliance stems from a shared interest in a narrative that undermines the rationale for the special counsel investigation. "the post" also reports that trump involved his vice president in efforts to pressure the president of ukraine to dig up dirt on joe biden, but the paper says aides close to pence, quote, insist he was unaware of trump's efforts. the piece goes on to say, quote, one of pence's top advisers was on the july 25th call and the vice president should have had access to the transcript within hours. today, secretary of state mike pompeo confirmed he was listening in on that same call. first time we've heard him publicly address since the report surfaced that he had heard the telephone conversation that trump had with the president of ukraine. there is also new reporting on the whistle-blower's efforts to get his concerns about trump and ukraine to congress. "the new york times" writes house intelligence chairman adam schiff received an early account of the accusations against the president before the official whistle-blower complaint was filed. indeed, it should be pointed out, whistle-blowers often come to congressional committees first. the whistle-blower in this case, quote, approached a house intelligence committee aide with his concerns about mr. trump only after he had had a colleague first convey them to the cia's top lawyer. the aide shared some of what the officer conveyed to mr. schiff. schiff's spokesman says the whistle-blower's identity was never made known, that he was told to file his complaint through the proper channels and schiff never saw the complaint in advance. here, however, is what trump said when asked about this reporting on schiff. >> i think it's a scandal that he knew before. i go a step further. i think he probably helped write it. okay? that's what the word is. it's a scam. it's a scam. >> today, house democrats said they would subpoena white house officials by friday of this week if their demands on documents for ukraine are not met. and this on the afore mentioned adam schiff. >> we're not fooling around here. they need to know even as they try to undermine our ability to find the facts around the president's efforts to coerce a foreign leader to create dirt that he can use against a political opponent, that they will be strengthening the case on obstruction if they behave that way. >> earlier today, trump was asked by a reuters reporter, jeff mason, to explain exactly what he wanted from the president of the ukraine and it left us with this exchange. >> mr. president, can you just make clear right here, what do you or what did you want president zelensky to do with regard to joe and hunter biden? >> i was having a problem with are two things. number one, ukraine -- before him, tremendous corruption, tremendous. more than just about any country in the world. >> what about mr. biden? >> what did you want him to look into on biden? >> look, biden and his son are stone-cold crooked. >> the question, sir, is what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son, hunter. >> are you talking to me? >> yeah, it was a follow-up of what i just asked you, sir. >> are you ready? we have the president of finland. ask him a question. i've given you a long answer. ask this gentleman a question. don't be rude. >> no, sir, i don't want to be rude. i just wanted you to have a chance to answer the question i've asked you. >> i've answered everything. it's a whole hoax. do you know who is playing into the hoax? people like you and the fake news media that we have in this country. and i say in many cases the corrupt media, because you're corrupt. >> so, with the tip of that, to marty scorcese, we are under way. elizabeth miller, aka, the boss, washington bureau chief for the times, peter baker, white house correspondent also with "the new york times," carol lenick for "the washington post" and frank figluzzi, former fbi for counterintelligence. good evening and welcome to you all. elizabeth, i would like to begin with you. given that you are in management at the paper and given that this is something we struggled with in our own newsroom today and tonight, how do you go about explaining a day like today? it fits no known norms. there's no story file we can reach for. i know on the conference call every day, every night, new york gives you a certain amount of space in the print edition. and on the website. how did you determine how to put what we witnessed today? >> thank you for asking that question. there was a lot of discussion today. i think one of the most extraordinary things i heard today before i completely answer your question is when the president said to jeff mason, are you talking to me? i've never heard a president of the united states say that at a news conference. who else would jeff have been talking to? nonetheless, it was a very confusing day. there were developments very late into the evening. basically today was an escalation of the clash between the white house and congress and, actually, the trump administration and congress. what's interesting or challenging about this situation is that it is a war on so many fronts. it encompasses much of the federal government. it encompasses the state department, the white house, the congress, the intelligence agencies. the igs for those agencies and it's hard to keep track. basically what you see is the trump administration fighting, you know, on multiple fronts against a very, very determined effort in congress and a very fast-moving effort in congress to hold the president to account for the transcript of the phone call that the white house itself put out. >> carol lenick think about the names this has touched already. pence, giuliani, much to his frustration, manafort, i'm sure. how do you determine where the floor is based on where we are? >> well, i couldn't agree with elizabeth more that it was quite a day. there were so many stories, it was hard to keep track of which one was the most important. and so i think i'll answer your question that way. we have a president who has said a series of epithets in social media that children can read. he has made jokes about a blank strap and whether or not someone can carry it. that's an important story, the president sort of coarsening the national discussion. the other really important story is that it appears that pompeo, secretary of state and also the vice president, were involved in this call. i interviewed several people who said it would be very unusual for a secretary of state or vice president to sit in on a call. their schedules don't usually align enough for them to be on a president wral call to a foreign leader. this signals that it was not only important to the vice president and his aides to go on that trip but also important to pompeo to be on this call and, thus, important to the president. >> frank figluzzi, we learned tonight that rudolph giuliani reportedly in touch through the required federal intermediaries, given that one of them is in the slammer, with paul manafort over the allegations in the mueller investigation. anything to see here? >> we reached the sad point where the president's personal attorney is consulting with an imprisoned, convicted felon on some kind of bizarre strategy that wants us to look elsewhere, to create a bright, shiny object away from russia and toward ukraine as responsible for everything from hacking and social media propaganda to supporting hillary clinton. the problem is that bright shiny object, brian, is really just a mirror. and the mirror reflects vladimir putin's narrative that he wants them to spin, the narrative being that russia did nothing wrong. this is all about ukraine. the indictment of two dozen russians, including 12 russian intelligence officers for hacking social media propaganda from the special counsel, that's all wrong. don't look there. nothing to see here. we're also hearing vladimir putin come to the defense of our president and say that a whistle-blower complaint filed by a u.s. intelligence official is baseless. so we've got an imprisoned felon and vladimir putin trying to help the president and rudy giuliani right in the middle. >> peter baker you, too, are a veteran journalist. the three of you that have on this broadcast are consensus walk-on hall of famers and we're happy to have you. can you wrank what you saw from this president with anything else in your repertoirial memory? >> with no president before him. jeff mason, who you showed him ask that question, is an all-star. he was very unflappable in the face of what can only be described as presidential intimidation and i think he was asking an important question. i think he didn't get the answer to the question he asked. he stood there and held his ground until the president made clear he wasn't going to ask his question. i think you saw a president today who is agitated, riled up, angry. he thought that the threat had gone away with the mueller investigation over the summer, with mueller's testimony not changing the political dynamics very much. he thought the threat was gone and suddenly just like this in the last two weeks, basically, his world has changed, his political world is upside down. you also see a president who doesn't yet have a strategy for fighting back other than himself. he is a one-man war room at this point. there's no operation around him, strategy around him other than to support one president and his twitter feed. that, right now, is his defense. his defense is offense. it's all about the other people. it's about the whistle-blower. it's about adam schiff. it's about the democrats. it's about the media. it's about everything except for himself. >> elizabeth, indeed, to peter's point, people who came up the traditional way in politics or covering politics look at this president, this west wing and ask how can there not be an overarching strategy here? how can there not be a rapid reaction? >> the problem for them is that they're divided about how much they should actually be doing and how much the threat is. there's also a lot of debate about who would run the war room and the president himself, as peter said, has 65 million twitter followers. he has the largest megaphone. he is the most active. right now, he is the one people pay taepgs to. i think they don't have -- there's talk that the white house counsel would be taking charge of the impeachment inquiry. they probably did not have enough lawyers in there for people. but it's kind of extraordinary. we keep asking, what is the strategy, what is the strategy? we get back that there isn't a lot of focus just yet. what you see is what you get today, which is a very angry president, lashing out a number of times every day and then, of course, starting the tweets early in the morning and going till late at night. they're getting more and more incendiary, the tweets. we see tweets about the civil war, treason and all sorts of profanity. >> carol loennig, talk to us about your reporting around the records of ukraine thus far. the president misspoke when he said we have a word for word recitation of that phone call. we do not. it warns us that this is not a vertebra verbatim transcript of that call. >> this is such a great mystery and yet it's hiding in plain sight, brian. we've interviewed, you know, many, many, many people who handle the transcripts and the records, memorializing foreign leader calls with the president and basically it breaks down like this. situation room, people in the white house, staff take a voice to text dictation so they have essentially created a word-for-word transcript. it is sent around the white house after the call and it is edited for clarity usually, edited for care in getting the words right, the proper nouns, the spellings. what the president may have inadvertently told us all is, there's a word-for-word transcript for this, just as the whistle-blower has said in his complaint. there is a word-for-word transcript that we have not seen yet. that seemed to be what the president was intimating. the situation room document, we've not seen yet, and it would be really interesting if that were subpoenaed and we were able to view it. >> frampg, first of all, as a point of order here, white how has stenographers throughout the building. usually the president doesn't utter a word without steno there. secondly, voice notes on your phone would suffice. >> the irony here, brian, is that this is a complete abuse of the classification process. so, the only halfway plausible defense they can make is we classify this thing at top secret compartmented because the president compromised himself in the conversation and, of course, at that point, we would say, well, it's already out in public. he has admitted to it. so, declassify this document. let congress see it. it's absolutely necessary. and if there's a four transcript that needs to go to the house and senate committees. >> peter baker, a little lost in today is the fact that whistle-blower's -- that, of course, as we have learned is a term of art and has, as part of it, confidentiality and the guarantee of protections. whistle-blowers often come to congressional committees first, before they have done the rest of their due diligence. the attacks on schiff under way and already relentless -- i guess what i want to know from you is, do you ever think they'll reach such a level as to really hamper his task, which, of course, i'm sure is the president's goal? >> yeah. there's something about adam schiff that has clearly gotten under the president's skin. he seemed to viscerally dislike him. perhaps more useful to him than nancy pelosi. perhaps he has decided that nancy pelosi is not the one he wants to take after whereas adam schiff is a better villain for his narrative. the thing he has really seized on, he repeated it today, more than once, was that adam schiff misrepresented the nature of the call in a comment before the committee. adam schiff said before he made the comment, this is, in etches, what the president said. he made clear it wasn't a word-for-word reading of the transcript. the president said not only was it outrageous of him, it was a crime. it was treason. he should be arrested. he should resign from office for the crime of putting words into the president's mouth and then the president himself put words in adam schiff's mouth, said he was clearly doing this because he said gosh, he did nothing wrong. he, the president, did nothing wrong. he put words in adam schiff's mouth that adam schiff didn't say. when someone like adam schiff does it, it's a crime. that's because he likes these villains. he likes to have an adversary that he can attack and go after, someone to focus on, focus his own energy on, focus his supporters on. adam schiff happens to be the target. >> even after a long day, our guests have agreed it stay on. when vladimir putin trolled our own correspondent, our president and all of us in the process. "the 11th hour" is just getting under way on a wednesday night. we mention this had before the break. it's not an overstatement to put it this way. we want to show you the moment today when the president of russia trolled our own reporter, our president and all of us by extension. here was the scene, a conference in moscow, moderated by our own veteran correspondent, keir simmons, who asked putin through a translator about interference in our elections. >> is russia, as robert mueller alleged, attempting to influence the 2020 elections in the united states? >> translator: i'll tell you in a secret. yes, we will definitely intervene. it's a secret so that everybody can laugh, and so we'll go big but don't tell anyone, please. please don't tell anyone. >> also during that conversation, putin said he would be fine with the white house releasing notes of his conversations with trump during last year's summit in helsinki. until now, moscow has been opposed to releasing conversations between the two leaders. putin met with the leader of our nation for two hours with just translators present. so that's reassuring. putin also gave a full-throated defense of trump on the whistle-blower controversy that he faces. our guests remain here with us. elizabeth bumiller, peter baker, carol loennig and figluzzi. peter, you were stationed there. what was he up to today? >> it reminds us of when the president and president putin met in osaka, japan. sir, are you going to tell president putin not to interfere in our next election and he turned to him and sort of made a joke, don't transfer. and they both laughed about it. you're seeing president putin laugh about it here. rye not laugh? this has accomplished a lot of what you wanted. putting aside even who you wanted to be elected and the intelligence community has concluded they wanted president trump to be elected. they wanted to disrupt our democracy. they wanted to disrupt our system. they wanted us to cause doubt in our institutions and our leadership and here we are, at each other's throat as a country. and that's almost exactly what vladimir putin would have wanted. >> so, elizabeth, we're looking at two leaders, disparate, though they might be, interlocked with interest? >> that's right. how much they're sympatico with each other. putin was joking, so was donald trump, about a major attack on our democratic system in 2016. let's not forget that. the other thing we need to remember is that when putin met with trump in germany in 2017, they were alone, only with a translator, with an interpreter and trump took the interpreter's notes from that conversation. they haven't been seen since. it's very interesting that they just disappeared. those conversations are usually kept within the government and as records of history. we don't have that. we don't know what transpired between those two leaders in that private meeting. >> frank, what do you make of the putin we saw today? >> let's be clear. this was not some lighthearted moment with putin. he is not a prankster. a trained kgb veteran who chose to respond in humor. but also because if he chose to do an outright denial, no, russia would not interfere with the 2020 election, he wouldn't leave open the possibility that he might. that's to sow further discord. will he never come out and say he won't do it, because he wants us to think that he might and he has if we don't like the outcome of the 2020 election. >> carol loennig, the president travels to florida for an event, medicare event at the massive senior complex called the villages. i'm tempted to ask what could go long but he has every ability to give >> i'm sure it will start tomorrow some time after 6:30 a.m. with a tweet. i hope it doesn't involve the word bs, but i imagine a lot of venting on the part of the president to let us all know that he's a victim, he is unfairly being accused by democrats and this shadow has been over this president from the beginning. >> forgive me while i continue to deal with the plague. >> hours from now, house member also hear from a career diplomat who, because he's now out of the state department, could be one of their most important and candid witnesses on ukraine. two veteran reporters sticking around to tell us what to expect, when we continue. . so a big name in the whistle-blower complaint will testify in front of congress just hours from now. it says on july 26, a day after the president's call, u.s. special representative for ukraine negotiations, kurt volker, that's the guy, visited kyiv and met with president zelensky about how to navigate the demands that the president made. he resigned friday, the day after the whistle-blower complaint was made public. former u.s. ambassador to ukraine also scheduled to testify next week. she was abruptly re-called in may and is also named in the whistle-blower complaint. we've got two career diplomats who will be talking and coming up for us. two reporters, one on the white house beat and another covering congress tell us what to watch for in this, next when "the 11th hour" continues. we are proceeding deliberately, but at the same time we feel a real sense of urgency here that this work needs to get done and in a responsible period of time. we're not fooling around here. >> having set the stakes, here with us tonight for a look at what's still to come, andrew desiderio and katherine lucy is here in the studio, white house reporter now with ""the wall street journal." andrew, we'll start with you. what's the chance that pompeo's resistance, his nervousness to, as they're affectionately called in washington, two career dips, career diplomats coming before congress with really nothing to lose and no disincentive to not tell the truth? >> that's exactly right. the suspicion among lawmakers and aides with whom i spoke today on capitol hill was kurt volker resigned last week precisely so he could, a, cooperate, and, b, defend himself. he was mentioned in the whistle-blower complaint specifically with regard to a meeting he had with president zelensky the day after zelensky's phone call with president trump. i suspect he wants to go in there, defend himself and tell his side of the story. not only is he showing up to capitol hill, marie yavanovich who was called back to washington from ukraine in may, she's also going to appear next week t appears on secretary pompeo's letter yesterday that he doesn't want any of them to testify, right? this is a show of resistance, i think, not just for volker but yvonovic, rudy giuliani's that he was trying to leverage state officials and career diplomats really to dig up dirt on joe biden on behalf of the president. >> katherine, a president doing a senior citizen event in florida tomorrow. we have this gentlemen on capitol hill. by this time tomorrow night, we might know a lot concerning what aspects of foreign policy rudy giuliani was doing without portfolio overseas in a dicey area for us. how goes the anti-impeachment effort as we might have more evidence and ammunition tomorrow? >> certainly, the president is getting out of town, which sometimes they try to do if they're trying to change the subject. the problem is keeping the problem on message is never easy, as we all know. so he's supposed to go down to florida, talk about health care. it's an event at the villages. >> medicare. >> medicare. and he could talk about medicare. he could also talk about impeachment, as he has been doing for days. and using words that i can't use even on at 11:00 hour tv show, showing, venting his frustration. the things we know today are that the democrats and the white house are escalating. adam schiff made it very clear today they are very serious, that they are going to do serious interviews with these officials, that they're going to push very hard for details on meetings with zelensky, meetings with giuliani, details of why the ambassador was ousted. so, they are proceeding on this track aggressively as the president is fighting back, increasingly wildly. >> i'll take one for the team here. at this hour last night, the lead story was all we knew was that the state department inspector general asked for an urgent meeting with congressional staff. then came the moment this afternoon, the meeting was over. a member of congress from maryland who was within his rights to attend, even though it was for staff, came out with a color photocopy of a fake white house envelope. we'll play what he said and then talk about it with you on the other side. >> essentially a packet of propaganda and disinformation spreading conspiracy theories. those conspiracy theories have been widely debunked and discredited. >> so, andrew, since then, rudy giuliani, correct me if i'm wrong, has taken credit for delivering these documents to the white house, who then got them over to the state department, news reporter general. was this a total blowout today? again, it was our lead story last night, not knowing the contents of it. >> right. and talking to people who were in the briefing, brian, i can tell you it was truly bizarre and confusing. they were given these packets essentially of all of these documents, all these materials that essentially were an attempt to smear not only marie yavanovic, former ambassador of ukraine but also joe biden and hunter biden with unfounded conspiracy theories that rudy giuliani has been pushing over the last few week and behind the scenes, of course, the last few months and throughout all of this year. and talking to people who were in there, it was interesting to hear their recollections of this. it wasn't technically a classified briefing. they could talk about the information. congressman raskin there holding up what appeared to be an 18th century style letterhead that said the white house on it. some of them said that the folders were saying they were from the trump hotel, something like that. it was truly a bizarre episode on capitol hill today. it really is, in terms of this investigation, it's another data point that shows the extent to which rudy giuliani was trying to coordinate his efforts with the state department as early as back in march, april and may, when the state department inspector general was first informed that these documents and these packets were delivered to the state department. >> katherine, in the walk and chew gum department, i need your help in telling our audience that this is the time to be alert. we put together a few headlines of what else is going on. wall street journal, you may be familiar with, dow industrials drops as manufacturing data disappoints. the agriculture secretary has said no guarantee that small dairy farms are going to make it in this coming period and north korea fires missile days before resuming u.s. talks. a major missile from a submarine base under the water that was given a very high trajectory, had it been flattened out, there's no telling where it might reach. all of this is going on at the same time. >> just because there's an impeachment process going on doesn't mean that the economy and farm policy and all these other things suddenly leave your plate. economic questions are very serious, what's happening with the agriculture sector, what's happening with the dow. this is something that's a huge concern for the president and his advisers. for months we've seen their leading argument was a strong economy. he was talking about this again in the oval, strong economy. if that goes away, that's a real issue for this. and it puts more pressure on is there a bigger incentive to get a trade deal with china, for example? do they feel they have to push to do some of these things to bolster confidence? but that's a big issue. and the same -- he has sought to argue that, having meetings with north korea, limits to testing with north korea. he has had a farm policy victory. as time goes on it's less and less clear he will get a deal with north korea. i do wonder if they'll try to set up another meeting or do more talks. that's another thing that's going to keep percolating. it's not going to let up just because he's fighting this front with congress. >> the world we're living in, in october of 2019. great thanks to andrew desiderio and catherine for talking us through it tonight. we learned today that go to the post office they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps.com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the amazing services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again! to the wait did frowe just win-ners. prouders everyone uses their phone differently. that's why xfinity mobile let's you design your own data. now you can share it between lines. mix with unlimited, and switch it up at anytime so you only pay for what you need. it's a different kind of wireless network designed to save you money. save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. plus get $250 back when you buy an eligible phone. call, click, or visit a store today. we learned today that senator bernie sanders was hospitalized last night after experiencing chest discomfort, that's how they put it. he was discovered to have an artery blockage. doctors inserted two stents to open up the blood flow. as surgeries go, thanks to the marvel of modern medicine, this one is considered rell of itly minor, noninvasive, the recovery is very quick. patients usually feel better right away. the underlying problem was no less serious and in the days before stents it was life threatening in some cases. all of sanders' campaign events have been canceled until further notice. earlier the srpt said he was feeling good and thanked everyone for the well wishes and then added none of us knows when a medical emergency might affect us and no one should fear going bankrupt if it occurs. i manual this was a big thank you for coming in on the road. welcome. i imagine this was a big surprise. >> it was a big surprise and it's clear it surprised a lot of his staff in terms of how this came about and how his chest discomfort and hospitalization affected the campaign. what we know is that, first, jane sanders, who is not always on the campaign trail with him, flew out and is now in vegas with him, in the vegas area. she is now taking -- she's with him as he's resting. of he's now off campaign trail for several days. the but we also know that he was having a campaign vent. he was having a grassroots fund-raiser. obviously his campaign announced that big fund-raising hall. that is interesting to see how this takes attention away from. that he was having a grassroots fund-raiser. something interesting at that fundraiser is at times leaned on the podium a little bit. i cover sanders all the time on the road, that's completely unusual for him to do. he's someone who, even if there's seats around, he tries to stand up and engage with people and have that interaction. so his campaign events have been canceled. he's off the road for a little bit, his appearances have been canceled. his ad buy, he had this $1.3 million ad buy in the state of iowa that came off that news of the fund-raising numbers that he had, the campaign has postponed that ad buy. and we're kind of seeing this campaign in pause right now as we watch to see how long this is going to impact -- how long he's going to be off the trail and how long this is going to impact him. >> obviously on a personal level we hope for nothing more than his complete and full recovery, there's no reason to believe this will be anything but. i know a lot of guys who have had stents, journalists and surgeons and firefighters, this is not ageism. he is 78. campaigns are a rough and brutal business. this can't be a great look optically. the monmouth poll, warren, biden, then sanders, then mayor pete. this is the height of the battle in our new accelerated primary schedule. >> that's exactly right, and that monmouth poll showed essentially a three-way tie between vice president biden, elizabeth warren, and senator bernie sanders. now we're seeing, in that poll, senator sanders dropping a little bit. elizabeth warren leading biden, still in that margin of error, so you can't read too much into that at this point. you're seeing separation in the field. this cannot come at a worse time for him. when people, at least the narrative is he's losing momentum, that people are questioning his candidacy and the excitement around his candidacy. i will say one thing to watch, especially now, that many voters on the campaign trail bring up his health as an issue, or his age, excuse me, his age, as an issue. he's one of the older candidates in the race. just turned 78 last month. and here's a question of, is he too old? when you have candidates like elizabeth warren who represent and kind of agree with him ideologically, have that parity there, are voters going to now see this news and say, hey, this is someone i can have the same policies that i would in bernie sanders with a younger candidate, someone who's newer on the scene, someone who is not battling now this health issue? >> an important point to make and one we're hearing in the coverage after all. our thanks to shaquille brewster, known to his friends as shaq brewster. we appreciate it, great to see you. the president's anti-impeachment brain trust may be small, but it's loud. every american ought to see this performance. our viewers will when we come back. probiotic and the gastroenterologists who developed it. align helps to soothe your occasional digestive upsets, 24/7 with a strain of bacteria you can't get anywhere else. you could say align puts the pro in probiotic. so, where you go, the pro goes. go with align, the pros in digestive health. and try align gummies, with prebiotics and probiotics to help support digestive health. believe it or not i watch my words very carefully. there are those that think i'm a very stable genius, okay? i watch my words very, very closely. >> last thing before we go here tonight, if you're old enough to remember, then you remember when we americans really had reason to fear that our president was unbalanced. it was on august 9th of '74. nixon's farewell. the day he passed the presidency to gerald ford. he was sweaty and exhausted and he was crying as he talked about the death of his brothers from tuberculosis, as he called his own mother a saint. fast forward to now. it's been said in all kinds of different ways we've never had a president talk like this or act like this one. it is hard to imagine gerry ford. barack obama swearing on social media as our president did today. it's all still brand-new territory. and yet just today, people in responsible positions started using words like unhinged, unglued. and here now some examples from just today of why they said that. >> i watch my words very, very closely. and i hear about the word impeachment. how can you impeach somebody on that conversation? a beautiful conversation. it was a great conversation. it was 100%. the call was perfect. a perfect conversation. i heard rick scott today say that was a perfect conversation. lindsey graham said, i didn't know you could be so nice. it was perfect. this is a hoax. this is the greatest hoax. it's a whole hoax. it's corrupt and it's fake. i don't even use fake anymore. it's a scam. it's a scam. the whole thing is a scam. it was so evil. when little adam schiff saw the text, when he read it, he couldn't believe it. shifty shift who should resign. we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. i think he had some kind of a mental breakdown. look at nancy pelosi. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take them, like they're cookies. we're having a lot of wins. he said, wow. i said, whoa. you know, there's an expression, he couldn't carry his blank strap. my favorite word, reciprocity. a moat, not a word i use, they used it, moat. bright eyed and bushy tailed. you people should be ashamed of yourselves. i think i've answered most of your questions. >> our president, from just today. and that is our broadcast for tonight. thank you for being here with us and good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. the democrats impeachment inquiry is ramping up and so is the president's rhetoric. he spent the day lashing out at his political opponents on twitter and in front of reporters. >> plus, house democrats say they aren't messing around. they say a subpoena will be issued tomorrow, if the white house doesn't turn over documents related to the ukraine scandal. >> and this week, russia said the u.s. cannot release phone call, transcripts, between trump and putin without the kremlin's permission but when asked about that the russian president said something very different. good morning,