hybrid format, broadcast live on sfgovtv by calling 1-669, using meet ing id 828, we welcome the public participation. there will be an opportunity for general public comment at the xwining of the meeting 789 public comment will be--i know why the phone is ringing. public comment will be taken by video or call in. the commission will take from people attending remotely. for those attending in-person. please fill out a speaker card located at the speaker card or podium. state your name and any affiliations and any comments. you'll have three minutes. en select a raised hand option when it's time to select public comment. when your item of interest comes up. when you're asking to speak, please call from a quiet location, and speak clearly and slowly and turn down your television or radio. and if you're also viewing on sfgovtv, while we recommend that you use zoom or awed yo, you may submit a written public comment on zoom. please note that commissioners and staff are not allowed to respond to comments or questions during public comment. thank you, media services for sharing this meeting with the public. >> commission secretary, let's do a roll call. >> president, here. >> commissioner. >> here. >> commissioner torres is not yet here and commissioner wong. >> here. >> all right the next agenda item is public comment. i want to remind everyone that we have three minutes to speak and when that time is over, we ask that you politely seed the rest of your time and sit down. thank you. >> one second, let me put your timer on. go ahead. >> speaker: which camera? ooh. >> just go ahead and speak, it will point to you. >> speaker: i cannot see my son. my name is michael petremendouslis and i'm here to talk about the castro theater, as, excuse me, can you stop the clock. please stop the clock. and restart, i'm sorry, because of technical difficulty, i want my minutes back. >> you have three minutes. >> speaker: i would like to appeal that, thank you very much. my name is michael, i'm holding up a sign that says save the seats and it refers to the integrity of this 100-year-old theater. i'm here to demand that this commission schedule a hearing about the impact on night life, on all the corridor for the past 13 months. another plan of entertainment has been managing or mismanaging for 13 months. it's having a terrible impact on night life, among other important components to business and entertainment in the city, in the castro. i looked at your minutes for the past 13 months, i cannot find evidence that you have yet discussed the castro theater. in relation to this, iconic theater, the news came out that cbg cinemas 14 screens are closing at the end of this month. related, i'm saying this commission, this entertainment commission has to have a hearing about this to our remaining theaters. what was the impact of the cinema on entertainment on the corridor? also what is the impact going to be when it closes? this all comes back to the purpose of this commission is to look at entertainment. and how it is a driving economic and cultural force in this city. we are not going to go see an end to the controversy of the castro theater. i'm asking to you make up for lost time and put it on the agenda to discuss what will be the economic impact of another planet if they get their way with the castro theater. i would like you to say why, after 13 months has another planet failed to produce an economic impact report for what may happen if they get their way to rebell their seats. really there are so many angles that this commission needs to look at related to the castro theater, the closure of cgv at the end of the month and our remaining theaters. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you very much, is there any further comment for items that are not listed on tonight's agenda? >> there does not seem to be more. >> okay, we're going to approve the minutes. do we have a motion to approve those minutes. >> so moved. >> second. >> all right, is there any public comment on our minutes? >> yes. >> this has to do with the minutes from the last? >> specifically. >> i cannot hear you. >> this has to do with the minutes from the last minutes. >> yes, the draft meetings. >> your start time now. >> michael patralis again, about your minutes, they're not giving the full picture, for item 3, it says that i made comments regarding commission torres's involvement with the castro district at the castro theater, i was highly critical of this commissioner. you need to revise these minutes to reflect what i said which was criticism right now if somebody comes along and reads these minutes, they don't get a sense of what i was saying. you've neutered my comments. go back and look at what i said during general public comment, which had toe do, hello, i want to show on the overhead camera please. i wanted to show a video but we had technical trouble of a rally that was held on january 28th, here is the still photo, that's me in the rainbow hat with a sign that says save the seats at the castro theater. and you can see hundreds of people are coming out of a sold out screening. i wanted to show you this video, because -- ~>> michael, i'm really sorry, this does not have to do with the minutes. >> this has to do with the minutes please don't take my time. now regarding what i showed you, it was a letter from the commissioner where he was opposing this important rally on the 28th. you did not reflect in the minutes what i showed you. what i was talking about and it needs to be in your minutes to reflect reality. now, sfgovtv, you can come back to me. back to page 4 i believe of your draft minutes, my sir name was misspelled. you know being a child of greek i am grantz, i've had my name misspelled quite a bit. and i would like for you to additional revise these minutes to correctly spell my name. thank you and please don't interrupt. i was a dressing the minutes. my time is still running, you need to respect the public when we're speaking please. thank you. and let's save the castro theater. thank you. >> do we have a motion or do we want to discuss more minutes? is there more discussion on this public agenda first? >> there seems to be a public comment on the zoom, one second. >> hello i'm trying to follow the proceedings but there is no video is that the case for meetings? is it possible to see the video or is that not the case. >> there should be video, let me work on that. thank you for letting us now. one second. >> speaker: thank you. as we work on getting video on zoom, i want to note for the record that this is being broadcast live on sfgovtv online and on tv. so there are way to see watch this live as we work through some technical difficulties. i'm going to check in with sfgovtv, we can proceed but i'll see what is going on over there. >> is that it for public comment? >> was that the caller's comment. >> yeah, i think that was it. >> i would move to approve the meeting minutes. >> somebody seconded it. >> yes, so commissioner wong moved and commissioner thomas seconded, we just need to vote now. ready? all right, president climbman. >> aye. >> aye. >> aye. n.commissioner peres. >> aye. >> commission tomas. >> aye. >> commissioner torres. >> aye. >> and commissioner wong. and just for the record commissioner torres arrived during the public comment. >> thank you very much, the minutes have been approved. the next agenda item is number 4 which is a report from our executive wyland. >> thank you, i just want to note that i received a message from sfgovtv that the show should be showing. just a reminder that you can go online and watch us live. all right, good evening. so tonight i have some updates for you on new legislation and policies that impact entertainment and night life both at the state and local level. so you'll see. but i want to go through these briefly and note that val haleden will present next meeting and i'll be joining him. on february 1, assembly hain' introduced a bill to allow local jurisdiction if they want to authorize cannabis lounges to one provide non confused food and beverages for consumption onsite. and two, allow and sell tickets for live music and other performances. in other words, this would create a pathway to add a restaurant cafe or venue to their cannabis operation. alcohol may still not be sold or served for sales or consumption may be taking time. it would create additional revenue streams for small businesses and increase activities in our neighborhood. and also expand the number of social spaces in our city, adding more infrastructure to our night life. another update for you all this evening, is that on february 9th as some were in attendance the mayor gave the state of the city address. and during that time, she introduced a plan to revitalize downtown as part of a recovery strategy so. this is a strategy that both ben and i worked closely on with the mayor's office along with other entertainment commission and owe staff and we're plugging into this thing, we're calling the road map for downtown's san francisco future. so this plan sets forth nine strategies and nearly 50 initiatives under that strj dethat will make up the foundation for this work. one of the strategies supports on our sector. this is transformed downtown into leading arts culture and night life destination. there is several initiatives has part of the strategy and i want to highlight a few of them. this includes designating an ace zone and arts with targeted city programs and incentives to that area to try to foster new arts and culture establishments. also supporting events and activation and public space that's showcase local talent. so we will be keeping you appraised. a little bit more for you, at the state level, again, actually sorry at local level. on february 14, the board of supervisors approved legislation that expands and lowers barriers for night time entertainment in soma and the bill allows the uses for activity in a few corridors. this includes street between 7th and division and 11 between howard and division. the bill is with a mayor for a final signature. if enacted, they encourage more business to see open in our downtown district which is great. i think that is all i have for this evening, do you have any questions? >> when they say, downtown, is it defined by certain streets? >> it's actually a very large area. so we're trying to further refine that now, so it could technically expand from chase center all the way down to china town. >> and theb from vanness to embarcadero? >> yes, which is very broad. >> do you have any idea how high they will go? >> i'm not quite sure but we'll be updating you soon. >> just a comment to express, happiness with the market south views. and i think it's very important for business that are in that district and the cultural districts that are there as well. >> yeah, i want to echo that. i've been a small part on all three of these. i just want to correct the record. that's the only thing that they're allowed outside of cannabis which means you have to sell lunchable or wrapped sandwiches from somewhere. so this will allow lounges to expand what they sell in order to create a more comfortable environment especially to give lounges a life line, the cannabis world is very difficult and we created a program for equity that would allow people that came from communities that were destroyed from the war on drugs to get first dibs of dispensaries with a promise of future for them and what happened is dispensaries are economically unfeasible and furthermore you're not allowed to declare bankruptcy. so if you do go under, your federal taxes follow you where ever you have. some, individuals who are, who were dreaming of a beautiful future, this is a key just wait to go create revenues and then from our perspective in order to the ability to have live music and make them cooler and more desirable. i just wanted to point out, 30% of our city just having a jazz band, you cannot have a license in there. and ironically, part of the weather district, which is one of the greatest parties that the world has ever known is to actually forbidden to have licenses and a lot which baflz the mind. the idea that supervisor dore see is willing to open up these areas is key but there is plenty plenty more where you cannot employ a local musician to play, you know, to plug in and play ever, which is crazely to me. and downtown brings a lot of strong feelings with people, it's sometimes perceived as a place that had a lot and now getting more resources. i want to emphasize how important. i forget the number but it's something like 35 cents that they bring in, is from assessments, all of these amaze ing programs that we fund, so i'm all for activating the entertainment down there while we try to build more housing down there. i'm excited to be part of this h thank you. >>, are you like allowed to heat it or plate it. >> i suppose you can sell hot pockets. >> or instant meals. >> disgusting stuff. >> not a drastic change. >> is there any public comment on this agenda item? ?i public comment? >> no public comment. >> we'll close public comment and we'll move to number 5, which is a report. >> good evening, commissioners. are you able to hear me? >> there she is. >> great. >> sorry i couldn't be there in person with you all tonight. but is do have a little update for you enforcement. we received complaints to 311, you may remember club bazima, the neighbors who lived behind the business for over 14 years, reached out to our office because they were experiencing illegal noise of base. our inspect or set an interior limit, and during their assessment they were invited into the neighbors home to hear firsthand. both low and frequency penetrating the residential unit. which was celebrated about a five-foot or so alley way. while this is unusual, it goes to show how families travel in unique ways. on january 10th and upon taking measurement he found the business to be operating above their allowable level limit. he worked with the owner to bring the volume into compliance by eliminating a noise from a sub would haver and we received two more sub complaints and when he arrived, he received another base again. we did issue a notice of violation for exceeding their allowable limits that night. and then the following week, they discussed the resent concerns want to see the business succeed. they're also desperate to not hear base in their home anymore. i heard that they had installed a new sound system and they too wanted to be a good neighbor. we received two klaints on friday night and one on saturday this past weekend. due to staffing we were unable to respond on friday. but a inspector did respond in virtual. the plan moving forward is to have inspect or retest their sound limit now that they have a new sound system and talk about options for relocating their speakers. another suggestion is to utilize their eliminating, which the owner is hoping to doing. i'm going to work with both parties and i'll keep you all appraised of that space station. if you have any questions, please let me know. >> and then i just look at the enforcement report. at large and see, you know wazima, piece babab and sa mix. and it concerns me that we have these long time san francisco businesses, that caters to vulnerable communities especially communities of color and i noticed they have a lot of complaints filed towards them. >> we have been able to advocate for those businesses for several months and our actions have been educational as oppose today going enforcement route. so in terms of club wazima we're working with setting up a meeting with the district supervisor and also trying to provide resources. you were not here at this time, but just prior to covid, oawd with leadership from van haden was putting together a program to sound proofing. this is a good candidate. that's a really old business and we are aware of their history and love it. we think they just need some money to make improvements. >> i just want to note that appreciation for entertainment staff especially in regards to some of the other venues that we listed in terms of that support and helping support that we keep them open and running and part of our community. we had revisited the conditions and put on some additional restrictions and it looks like there, non compliance, and i want to ask staff what was the next step in terms of having them come back. >> i can answer that, commissioner wong, we did get a complaint. our inspect or we didn't have an inspect or in the field because it was, technically monday monday so late last sunday. so we went this past saturday night. the person was saying that he was going to become the new owner of the business and that's who our inspect or spoke with. and he said that, the time of the complaint last weekend, it was the owner who was working and it was likely violation that had occured. but we were not able to observe that in realtime. we're at a time where we have not observed a violation and we plan to monitoring 311 and revisiting the business. >> okay, got it. >> all right, is there any public comment on this agenda item? >> there are no public comment for this item. >> all right, we can move on to public comment and we can move on to number 6, hearing and possible action on applications for permit, on the entertainment direction. i believe deputy director will be introducing the consent calendar. >> thank you, president. we have just one on consent tonight. i'll note that the business is undergoing on occupancy change and they're working to obtain their permit. so if approved, the business can allow the permit so lontion they don't exceed a 49-person capacity. there was no opposition for the permit and tenderloin did not have added permit so. it's for the commission to vote to approve the consent agenda with staff recommendations below. >> all right, let's open the public comment on this so we stay consistent? is there any public comment specifically? >> there are no public comments for this item. >> okay. then we'll close public comment. is there a motion? >> so moved. >> seconded. >> all right, we can vote. >> president bliemman. >> aye. >> vice president. >> aye. >> commissioner >> aye. >> commissioner peres. >> aye. ?fm commissioner thomas. >> aye. >> commissioner torres. >> aye. >> and commissioner wong. >> aye. >> okay, consent agenda has been approved and we can move on to regular agenda of applications. >> grairkts the first permit this evening is for the corner store vice and bieb. this is a korean restaurant that sells food and soju cocktails. seeking the pirment to host indoor kareoke and dj. they're seeking the ability to host outdoor between the hours of 4:00 p.m. through 10:00 p.m. they're a small speaker on the outside of the building. at the moment, the business does not have a park let but they're interested in pursuing this as an option down the road. : the physician business has extended out reach. and of the 60 letters, 49 were to the residents and 11 others were to commercial businesses. there is no opposition to the permit and no added conditions. here to speak with you this evening, is ina flee. >> thank you so much for allowing this opportunity today. i'm ina lee and this is my brother he's the owner of hara food inc., and i'm a secretary. we're restaurateur who own and operate 5 different brands. our mission is to spread the korean culture. our business is the corner store with the korea k, and we drinking food call onju and soju drinks that and music that will uplift the energy. our goal is to take you to korea from the moment you walk in the door. our hope to bring the--local dy. dj. we had run up until pandemic. and from that time, we were already connected with a lot of neighboring businesses and residents. so our neighbors expressed excitement that we were bringing back this concept to the neighborhood. so the lastly, i want to mention the mission street corridor is over 2.2 miles long and about, 550 businesses. currently there are only 4llcs and the corner store will increase the vibrancy and night life for the corridor and the residents alike. thank you so much. >> if you stay here, we may have questions or we may not. >> i do, please. >> this is a great opportunity to plug them all. where are they at? >> to our millions of listens, free marketing for you. >> so we we specialize on fast casual, we have a fast kitchen, my mom and dad create this beautiful korean food in downtown san francisco mainly financial district. one is on one market and the other is the market, the twitter building and one close to china town. this will be our 5th. >> that's awesome. >> your businesses is what we try to promote. >> thank you. >> what is your sense of how downtown is recovering? >> still suffering, because not everybody has come back, even though you see a lot of cars, it does not mean that they're 100% back. they have option to come back, like one day or two or three days and shorter hours of working. however, since this new year, we see a lot more growth like at least 20% more. it's about 70% i can say are back. >> great, thank you. congratulations. >> thank you. >> hi, thank you for coming in. >> yes, mission and santa rosa. >> i live in exseller. >> first ocean avenue and mission street. >> okay. >> so how was your community out reach, were you able to talk to your neighbors and residents? >> yes yes, but we had a lot of people already know about us, because we were there offering korean food since 2015. this time we send outleter and mail for 100 foot radius. and also 11 business business owners around us that we specifically meet in-person and spoke. but only 6 out of 11 because when we were there, five were closed. but we are pretty familiar with everybody around. so we're always there to answer any questions and communicate. in addition to you're other businesses, were you able to talk to neighbors? >> yes, we have posters and people come in and ask questions, hey, i'm so excite asked we're glad you come back. and those comments. because our door was open we were doing construction and paintings and likes that. the main thing is the poster, and they say, they try to talk to us and that was a good gesture. >> i live in that district for about 40 years now, it was first korean place. >> yes. >> i'm looking forward to seeing your place. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> all right, thank you very much, you can have a seat. before we discuss, let's see if there is any public comment on this agenda item? is there any public comment? >> there are no comments on this item. >> i move approval with the staff recommendation. >> i'll second. >> all right, we can vote. >> bliemman. >> aye >> vice president. >> aye. >> commissioner. >> aye. >> commissioner perez. >> aye. >> commissioner torres. >> aye. >> commissioner thomas. >> aye. >> and commissioner wong. >> aye. >> congratulations, it's been approved you can follow-up with our staff at your earliest convenience thank you. all right. and look, there is one more. >> oaky doke, our final permit is for transition. the application is for llp amendment to include outdoor amplified sound. this lotion as been open for over 50 years. and they have been for over 30 years. the patio has been in use for decades. under the jam perm pit, they're allowed to host outdoor and daily between 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. during this time, we received 3, 311 complaints. to make amount question but only for outdoor sound between 4:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. along with amplified speech for certain events. the business conducted outdoor passing out 75 letters for their neighboring businesses and residential units. and out reach letter in the front of the window. additionally they collected 57 businesses of support. i also received 8 letters from neighbors which are included on your file. note thating i received one of those today so 7 are in your file. you will see that the opposition was about the destruction of amplified sound and how it may cause disruption in a home. so of the 8 letters of opposition, only one person had follow-up questions for me. and i've attached that correspondence for you in the file as well. here to speak with you, >> good evening, my name is dan seraf and i hope dan serot. back yard live performance area, amplified sound from tvs and speeches for the memorial that's we happen to have over the years. tom, maybe you can give a list history on the on and i brought a video so you can see and the video of the space being used when it was mauz the first lesbian bar here in town. >> hi, everybody i know one of you. >> i open on 24th street in 1976 was there for 8 years and had a lease problem with the landlord so i had to close it down. reopened five years later, had another bar going fortunately, on coal street in 19 89. having the ceiling fall down. my daughter and i cleaned it up all day. we've been going strong, i'm semi retired, i've been doing this for 47 years. i'm not quite si nile or dead but working on both. did you have a question? the space has been a bar since before 1966. i'm not sure how long before 66 but that's when ricky striker opened mauz which was the first open lesbian bar. and ricky had cancer in her late 60s and wanted to get out of the business and we struck it off. i talked to her, and she said, i will not use the colorful language that she used. so we had a deal. i bought the bar and we had 9 earthquake and about two years later, people started coming back and it's been thriving. the back yard has been in use as far back as we can figure out. there was a ping-pong table when we bought t it was falling apart so we built a new one. it was called the study before ricky bought it. i've been there 33 years, i'm almost 83 so six years ago, i decided it was time for me to bail and i got dan and his brother to become partners. and i'm semi retired but i'm still there both in spirit and in body. >> i can show you the video. >> i would like to say one more thing, we have had a series of unfortunate passings of both bartenders and friends. and we routinely had memorial services for them and food and all that. people are in the back yard and we used the microphone to say their about about those who died too young. other than that, it's a beautiful space on a nice day. when which do we're in compliance. so we're just asking for a little expansion. i'm going to turn it over to dan. >> so if i press, play, there we go. so i just took a little video so the commissioners can get a view on what we're talking about. if you have not been there besinger you should check it out. >> the sound is normally not on. >> only for niners games special events where we turn the sound on the tv. so it's not like we play sound on those tvs every day. it's on a rare occasion. so i just wanted to show you that. this shows some of the history of the bar. and this is from the documentary called the last call at mauz which, i don't know if we can hear the sound but, anyway so this shows people in the back yard in the 70s and the 80s, we believe. you know, playing ping-pong and what not. >> trying to jump rope. >> it just shows, i thought it was cool to show. >> this is the last ping-pong game. >> there are paddles. >> oh. >> this was a documentary that was filmed in the last couple of years of mauds when it was going under. so all of this footage was from the middle to late 80s. >> i'm sad, i'm sad. >> i'm sad about losing an enterprise that ricky was -- ~>> hey. >> anyway, that concludes our presentation unless the commissioners have any questions. >> hello, thanks for coming in. just want to clarify the entertainment that you want. is that accurate? >> yeah, in the comedy relates to speech. it's what we're highlighting of the things that we have done in this space. >> we don't plan on doing that. >> okay. >> and bjs. >> no. >> even though it's legal to operate, we don't do that. >> we think it would be disrupt ive to the neighbors. >> what we do. we don't get very much complaints. but if we do, for instance; if somebody was klaing then we would turn it down. so it's not like people need sound to watch tv. >> how can people contact you. >> the bar. >> yes. >> thank you. >> i, i'm deeply appreciative of the history of mauds and being in the space where monthsed was. i do have to push back on mauds be the first lesbian bars. there were a number of bars in beach before maubz but it was not the first. >> i'm just commenting on what ricky told me. >> i understand that, >> i think she noted credit. >> and knowing ricky, yes. >> she was, very strong women. >> i just want to and also i do i think that especially when the pandemic happened, the necessity or the, i think a lot of people were thankful that we had so many bars with patios and that this provides a place for people to go and have a good time without being afraid of sometimes the trauma that has stayed with us since the pandemic. >> yes, we were able to stay open out doors for most of the pandemic. it was rough on everybody's business. >> i covid recently and i'm fine. >> any other questions. >> we're glad you recovered. >> i'm fine. >> okay, you guys can have a seat. let's go ahead and do public comment before we discuss. if there is any. >> hello. >> hello i'm julian barbara, my wife katie have lived within 250 feet for over 13 years. we also operate some babs which is a business enter city of san francisco. as business owners and long term neighbors we support receiving a live performance permit. we support their activities. finnigan superior including back yard has been a boom to the business during covid. we used it to network and host clients and friends and a clean and safe environment without worry about covid transmission. the bar also hosts which makes it a enjoyable place to be. a pop up, a local hand mark market on shops that we organized in the back yard. a memorial service for icons and neighbors as well as usual spots for watching sports and parties. as adults, excuse me. a race really mixed couple living in majority white neighborhood and city. in our online world, finnigans is unique an log place. we wholeheartedly supporting getting whatever permit they need to continue their fine work as community space and the safe place for folks to mix and mingle. thank you. thank you very much. >> we do have a comment a couple of comments online, but i was making sure that is all the person commented on. now we're going to go to a couple of comments. i'm going to go with the raised hands first and then written comment. >> hello, my wife is adele, can you see us as well. >> okay. i've been here since 1981, and i remember very well. i never heard any noise from madds. we live a block away and we've noticed, a great increase in noise coming from the outdoor patios over the past say 3 to 5 years. and we, we recognize that during covid this was necessary function to keep businesses operating. we never opposed it, we fully supported it. but now things have changed. people are gathering indoors again. we have no objection to finnigan's using their outdoor patio. we do have an object jebsing to amplified sound coming from finnigans. we hear it clear low a block away and we don't think that the neighbors should have residual neighbors should have to put up with outdoor sound. you're giving them a permit and that would be significant change to our original neighborhood. we know that they districted 75 communication. we didn't receive one. nobody we talked to received one. and the only way we knew about this application was this happened to walk by finnigans and saw the sign posted out doors. sorry we did not know for social media. those are our comments and thank you for the opportunity to comment. >> thank you. next one is a phone number, just one second. >> speaker: i have lived in the valley for the last 14 years and i frequently go to finnigans and i cannot say strongly how much i go to talk to my friends and i, i rarely hear the tv on and honestly, it does not feel luke it. as for the neighbors in there in their ward doing a bbq. i really don't understand why there would be an issue. lastly even though we're moving away from covid, there is a lot of people and nine times out of ten, would want to. just some sound going, i don't think there is anything wrong with it. >> okay, really busy tonight. i'm going to read the three comment that's were put in the chat. the first one comes from jamie j, i believe. please support fins in this effort being able to watch sports game outside has been such a god sent in keeping the community together. i'm so sorry, i will do that again, slower. please support fins this in this effort. being able to watch sports games outside has been such a godsend in keeping a community together that has lost two restaurants and a pharmacy recently. and then the next commenter is, ma rika, as a regular visitor and customer of finnigan's wake i'm in favor to maintain entertainment outside, it has been one of the only way that's i feel comfortable supporting finnigans and feeling safe/social. please allow the back yard to continue the amplified sound. and then the last one, is from elaine young, and elaine i'm going to read the first one because everyone gets the one. i'm not sure how the audio can be that loud when i can barely hear them when i visit the finnigan's back yard. when i had health issues and could only watch sporting events with my friends. please vote to keep their outdoor sound. okay. and then, another one just came in. again just one comment per person for the chat. this one is from alex. alex says i was only going to finnigan because there is an outdoor space. the sound that comes from the tv is hard to hear from the tv so i'm shocked that anyone has complained about the sound. i'm also very surprised with the comment from dave about people feeling comfortable to now visit indoors. as an immuno compromise, it's safer to have this option. okay. couple more that came n.ryan, finnigan's say wonderful place with great owners and partners and wide range of locals many of whom have been going there forever. finnigan has been great about provoiding their bar and resources for neighborhood events. they use it and for good community reasons. that's it. >> all right, we'll close public comment. that's my job. >> president, can i make a clarifying point from one of the comments, two of them, one in was in operation and one in support and they both referenced that the permit application is to include outdoor entertainment which is not. it is specifically conditioned that this is outdoor amplified sound only. >> got it. thank you. all right, entertainment motion. >> i approval of staff conditions. >> second. >> we can vote. >> aye. >> vice president. >> she had to step out. >> stepping out. commissioner falson. >> aye. >> commissioner perez. >> aye. >> commissioner torres. >> aye. >> commissioner thomas. >> aye. >> and commissioner wong. >> aye. >> congratulations finnigans, you can play the niners outside. just took a little bit of work. in about 8 months. nine months. all right, this would move us along to the second to last item on the agenda which deputy director will introduce for us. >> actually, i will introduce it and then i will pass it off to deputy directer alvido because it's a long memo that we want to read into the record so we're going to smrip it up. --split it up. this is possible action to amend the permit conditions of limit live performance, during business business as adobe books located at 31024 street and this is at the request of the commission from our last hearing. so at our last hearing on february 7th as you'll recall during the updates. staff updated the commission that there was a violent incident a shooting that occured in front of adobe books business on january 13th, 2023 included for reference in your documents is several exhibits so that's referring in exhibit a. our incident was brought to our attention from near by neighbors. after reviewing the neighbors, we spoke with the office, and sfpd and heather holt the manager of adobe books to learn more about the incident. upon reviewing the incident report from the business and sfpd, it appeared that the parties involved in the shooting may have been attending an event hosted by adobe books called total fucken chaos, sorry for the record, it's important to note that the events on january 13th, did not host entertainment, so we were not utilizing their pirment at the time. however, it broad up the concerns around ensuring that there is affective compliance moving forward around security protocol around this location. so? in response, staff assessed enforcement actions including the common sense response of issuing a director's order for compliance with advise security plan. but since they did not have in place. the permit holders are not required to submit and then have to comply with the security plan. so this is a bit out of order for us. normally that's a place that permit holders have to do because entertainment is considered principle activity in the cases. so in this case, it was not their principal activity, they were a bookstore but they do host events. there were no grounds to take administrative action and that's why we're here. uses piece of code to bring in businesses to essentially look at current conditions and assess potential continues that we might want to add. so this was our path forward to be able to do that this evening. so we're not here to assess potential ref occasion and i wanted to make that clear for attendees this evening. this is really just to look at our current conditions and see how we can advise the commission to include some security continues. one--conditions, one of our main concern is that the fact the current operations don't run them to operating events in a structure that makes sense to our commission like a nightclub or music venue. as opposed to paid staff which is great but having dedicated security staff for these events. which in the past have been quite large and well attended which is great for the business, they're population but we want to make sure that they're responsible and safe moving forward so. one of our concerns again is around the staffing structure, but this is really because we want to make sure that there is a responsible party on premise during events. and potentially having dedicated security staff. some of the confusion with a lack of communication or poor communication with the business has been caused due to when we visit and check on the client, there is not a dedicated staff who understand the permit conditions. i will not get into it saofp but even a week and a half ago when we hand liveder the notice to appear for this hearing, our inspect or was met with some opposition, sorry, not opposition, resistance from one of the volunteer staff. so we visited and ultimately we want toy better relationship with heather and her volunteer staff. but we want to make sure that the business taking leadership role in educating those staff about permit conditions, the role of our office and inspectors and i will say before, i pass this over to deputy director that we did receive a sub commission from the permit holder prior to this hearing tonight that seems that there is a good faith efforts moving forward for them to take on some of the things that we're recommending tonight of their own a card, that was good to see. katelin do you want to take over from here. >> yes. so i just want to touch base on some enforcement history just to give a commission an understanding of what has transpired prior to this. on september 9th, 2022, we did issue a notice of violation for operating entertainment with the front door opened and we were out in response to a 311 sound complaints. on november first and walking the sidewalks with open alcohol containers. there is a violation of the good neighbor policy with staff, as well as ada requirement. and i know number 1th of 2022, we received a 311 complaints claiming they were hosting a event with people filling out on the sidewalk. and when they responded, he saw a large amount of people in the sidewalk. you can see this picture at the package here tonight. during inspect or visit on november 1, he observed somebody playing music from a portable speaker and many open containers with alcohol and front door was open and sitting in the back of the shop. he spoke with heather about the complaints and in response she closed the front door right away and stopped the dj's performance and asked them to leave the shop. so on november 21, in follow-up with inspect or visit, issuing a important about the a for mention issues. the permit holder is responsible for keeping per the good neighbor policy. during that meeting, we also suggested that identifiablele security staff to work the door so they can monitor the occupancy and keep the door closed and keep the sidewalk clear of crowds. today we had not had proof and in advance of the hearing it sounds like they had have started using a security guard at their events. so we'll be hearing from heather about that in a moment. i did want to mention that this was shared and in response of the hearing tonight for everyone's awareness. so the conclusion of the memo, that you may want to elect to adopt. that you recommend that you move to improve them in its entire tee. however in this case, we have selected six. solt you can a mebd the wordings of any suggestions or propose--specifically you can create a condition related to enter tree protocol including but not limited to bag check and wanting the front entry. we have not out laound a condition like this below but you may want to discuss this with the permit holder. attached is the llp permit and many of the exhibits in defense of the permit, as directly wyland mentioned, this hearing is not about revoking the llp permit and i did indicate that to the neighbors who expressed concern that the business may lose their ability to host entertainment, so i clarify that everybody that submitted a letter, that this is not the case. as drkly wyland mentioned, we did receive a permit from the permit holder. who they have posted about being respectful to the neighbors. and i did want to mention in your folder, you'll see a submission that includes some video footage and two letters of opposition that i received today. from neighbors in the community. that's not mentioned but it's included for your consideration. so here to with you, is heather holt who is represented by mark reny. >> mr. president, commissioners i'm mark reny, i'm here with heather holt. say hi, heather. >> hi. >> adobe books has been hosting culture and been a part of the mission district since 1989. thaer recognized as a legacy business and i understand the commission and staff have some concerns about the safety protocol that's we have in place and would like adobe books to host entertainment. first of, i would like to dispute, mainly the main reason that we're here tonight. that concerns the shooting. we have some people that may have witnessed but i asked a lot of questions about this. this was pay perfect storm that night, it was the friday 13th, the next door shop gives free tatoos on april the 13th. they had a large crowd and we had a large crowd that night also. the person trying to walk into the tatoo place, trying to get a swastika on the side of the neck, it became a contention situation and a fight ensued but away from adobe books and shots rang out. i would ask that the record be open, i would like to put a letter in there. there is a fairly accurate representation of what happened in exhibit c to your package tonight. but that being said, we want, we have been pretty much doing business in the since 1959. we want to stay another 50 years. the o.c. started there, if anybody knows the group o.c.s. mcgee who has five paintings in the collection of new york moma, he did shows with this particular adobe books. do not vandalized, respect others and yourself. please keep our space clear. we have sound limitation so please act respectfully in our neighborhoods. we have a second sign that we're not byob venue and no drinking in the sidewalk. i'm sort of late to the situation, but i'll be work withing volunteers and encourage that there is always a head volunteer at any event. >> keeping him clear, i have finished a first draft of a 15 page adobe security plan. i intend to work with katelin to try to polish up that up a little bit. we will have no loitering in front of the business, no ins and outs, i think we mentioned that. if you have any questions, my client would be glad to answer anything you have. and we have quite a bit of people in the audience that would like to discuss some of this. >> yeah, thank you. and i was at the event on friday the 13th as well as several other adults over 40. and we, i was at firsthand witness to the altercation that what happened with the two men. the larger man was very very aggressive and the person who ultimately shot him, was coiled back in the tattoo shop and in the street when it happened. it was, it was a really really unfortunate situation. we're lucky that no by standards got shot and this is our first-ever incident. i did submit a copy of our grant that details a budget as well as plans for how to how to engage the youth that are coming into our space. we have a lot of 18 and 24-year-olds. some of them are here, they will speak to you. we always have a head volunteer. there are a lot of issues with the inspectors that have been documented. i would not say that there is so much confusion. but his vibe and, i'm happy to afford you the documents that we've been sharing among ourselves and report today maggie and katelin about my michael's attitude problem. it's unfortunately that this situation has brought us to this point where now we're being faced with some regulatory , what with don't want is to be put a position where we have to have a security guard at every event. out of 92 events, it would be just prohibitive for us to now have bag checks and security guard, it's not our style. and have security present for events that we have security for. we acknowledge that we have to have our sidewalk under control. everybody is aware that we have our sidewalk under control. we understand that is faded out of passion, so we're bringing people back inside and our last art opening was very successful, there is a letter from susan cervantes. and everything went great, smoothie, gates lock by 845. we're hopeful that you'll hear the volunteers and we're not just volunteers. a lot of us spent hours and hours of our time here. this is a versace special place. and we hope you take into consideration of our venue. >> it's important that we create space for 18 and 24-year-old, it's critical with so much of the affordable and people getting pushed out the gentrification of the city. i applaud that, what is your capacity? >> 49. >> and in terms of the spillage into the sidewalk, is it because you're exceeding at that? >> no, continue not at the same time wh. we have the art exhibit, people come in and out, people linger, it's definitely 24 street is a narrow corridor. it a tracks people. we did have a park let during covid and we did remove it because it became a health hazard. we do have, we do have popularity. because of this issue, because there have been capacity issues. >> i understand, so with the fact that you have like nearly 100 events in 2022 and you primarily audience of 18 to 24s, it's important that you are going to really focus on safety. so we can continue to create these different spaces. >> i agree with you. >> where you're expecting more than 50 if your capacity is 49. can you weigh in. >> through the rotation of the evening. because the art events are open half during public hours and the other, we usually stay until 8:30 or sometimes 9:00. the security is helpful to keep the door flow and keep people moving along. how will you determine if you expect more than 50 people to come to a particular event. >> it's very bearable. we will start hiring security for all the options. we have an understanding of what kind of attraction they'll receive. >> good evening, first a comment. soon we'll go to public comment. i will caution getting into detail about that incident. i think anybody that has any facts, i encourage them to contact our homicide detail, they'll get you connected. this really is not the forum to get that grandlar it can lend to confusion. i understand why you said what you said, i just gave you the disclaimer. i say that you're maoun. there is still a bit of an up take to your paint. do you have a sense of what is started happening? or why? >> you mean with the complaints? >> yeah. >> well after, april 15th last year. we had an art opening for 415j. and a lot, it was fluid but moved toward our shop and tatoo shop. this is a new neighbor of ours. there were people gathering and being destructive, actually throughout beer bottles at our store. but the soe, was because that was us. some were upset and they said they were going to retaliate. i'm trying to work with the neighbors and i have a lot of records, that we've all tried to get them to come and sit down with us, and this has never occured. i'm not sure about september specifically but i know the noise complaints start inside june. we never had noise complaints. there is no record of 311 calls that i can locate and we've always tried to be generous with our space. >> it feels vindicative. >> i hear you. people are calling and we're showing up and there is no violation that would lend to your point. >> we are a very busy place. but now that we're being brought to this format, that compliance is going to be key to our sustainability, we just need space to do that. and we're, we're operating in a, in aing but now that we have 501c, we have an opportunity to raise money and other things that would help strengthen our ability to actually do this. >> i don't mean to cut you short, i want to make it clear, if you spend anytime with this commission, everything is you're saying, this group supports. that's not what the issue is. what i'm trying to see is that there is genuine conclusion. if that exist, we will solve this. >> yes, maggie and katelin and i we've been introduced, but katelin and i have been on many many meetings and email since last friday even before that. with that said, this group thrives on unique. it's kind of understandable, i get it, people are loyal to this group. you seem to want to say something. >> well when the inspect or show up. there is no confusion it does not make feel comfortable giving them their personal emails. what i suggest public forum may not be ideal. >> we've met, we've recorded them and sent them along. >> we have a process internally. >> but i don't think this is an issue with our volunteer. we're a aoun vek situation and venue. but i don't think it's about the volunteers being unininformed and having the resources we need and trying to understand what it is that you're asking us to do. we get it, we talked about it, we met about it, we've remet about it, and slack about it, we're on it. what i'm asking tonight is that in a good faith allow us to do this work na we're doing and see. we don't even pay ourselves but now we're paying security. we hired a security business, we have really strong leader ship, really good communication, a lot of community support and we can do it. we brought ourselves into weird compliance issue before, we're just slowing than the usual business because of our situation, it's not because we're incompetent. >> i hope that was not suggested. everything you're saying, and if they're on board, that's good to hear. i have a couple more comments but i'm going to wait. >> commissioner comments. >> i've been a fan of adobe books. i've been here for a while and thank you for coming in and trying to address this. have you seen the staff recommendation that's are listed? in the memo? >> not all of them. yes. and it sounds like you're already doing a number of these. for example, you're hiring a security guard. we know when it's going to be an issue, we figured that out. >> okay. and i know there are other communication. >> the 100 foot radius. i know that's just a standard. it lands you on other blocks. so i just want to note that that is, you know, i understand that is just the way it is. >> we have a good neighbor permit. >> i'm giving you the scope. >> i don't want to confuse with this incident. i would caution you when you tell us you cannot comply. >> it's not about compliance, it's that there are, it's a busy corridor. that's just my point. and a lot of work has come. >> we're definitely anytime during business hours, i just take pictures of parents with strollers looking at books and standing outside. loitering on the street. i get it. but you know, i'm just letting you know that a lot of people stand on 249ing street. i understand what you're saying in front of events, we get that. but there is going to be people standing in front of our door. >> what you want to tell us, is you want to collaborate but yes. >> i'm respond to go this, what i don't want is more restrictions that then the angry people that it becomes more restrictive to do. >> wore very mindful. and these are just discussions. >> totally, but i just want to you, what i don't want to happen is that it's so literal, that there is 5 people out there, let's get them. let's get them now. that's been the attitude from the venue, we don't even know who these neighbors are. we don't even know who they are. >> just from my perspective at least, we want you to survive and thrive and be able to host as many events as you want to. so i think it's a matter of figuring out how to put in place enough protections and activities so that, you know, to so that people can't grab on to things and see they're not doing it. i think we have a similar idea here. if people are looking at a table full of books, that's not what we mean by loitering in front as much as you know, blocking the sidewalk so that people can't get through, right. and ensuring that people are outside the crowd outside the door. we are here to help to make sure that you exist and your legacy business and integral to the community. i literally lived 50 feet from your store. i loved when you had your event. that said, i also knew the challenges when the challenges. i was personally assaulted right there, so i understand how things can get. but i think that it's no especially to point. that we continue to have events for youth, 18 and over. in in order for us to fully support you we need to you understand that having contact information and security person and a point person for all of these things is how we're able to support you. especially should something terrible happen which hopefully it would not happen. but i think it's important that we there is an alignment with what, you don't have to have events right, but you chosen to and it's an important thing with the community. it's important that it's open to we can adequately support you. >> and the suggestions are acceptable to you? that a caveat around 1 using your judgment around which events, like for example, number 4 is about stamps. >> that would be fine, we can do that, that's not problem. i think it's more dedicated. if we're required to have a dedicated security every single live or reading, it would be too restrictive, i don't think we need that. i think we can handle this in a respectful and reasonable way. we've also scaled back to include more workshops. this is such a valuable group. starting in back in april, we start today decrease and rerouting shows and moving things around and to be able to more well rounded in the services we're ago. >> fick ask, instead of 100 years event, how many of those do you anticipate hiring a security guard for? >> 20. and in the grant application for cac, we did have a technical budget line for security as well as our funding for curater who are also the usual leads volunteers that are there. and i know your inspect ors very well. >> thanks for coming in. can you tell me give an idea, what other events do you do? >> experiment al sounds, music, bands. art shows. other gathering like for workshops and skill shares. >> and do you ask people to rsvp in advance. so you can keep track of your head count. >> this past weekend, we had a comic read out loud. it was helpful. >> that may help you determine when you're going to have a big surge of crowd that will require you to have. >> we did have the security because we were not sure, because we donough sometimes certain crowds attract certain other crowds. >> okay, so determining on events, are they more popular to others? >> at least three, volunteers who are trained who were onsite. >> and do you have, a person there is going to be a during the course of know if you're at capacity or not, are you going to have that? >> yeah. >> that's not going to be updating. >> no but our space is not set up for more than that. so it's kind of, you cannot have more than that in for a show anyway. it kind of restricts itself and certain programs also like restriktd number of people because they're not for everybody. take a charge. >> we suggest a donation if we have touring bands but, so they have. >> we have amplified. >> that's a fun place. >> we've got things going on. >> that's why i don't want to have it be like here's your security guard. people feel safe in our space and i don't want, i feel like a security presence or a bag check. we've never had any violence in our space before. i think that would be really discouraging to keep this group. they're going to go somewhere and i think it's special that they've chosen us. i just want to provide the right experience and not create this cumbersome environment but we're also able to address the compliance concerns at the time. >> if we all care we can figure out. >> 35 of years. i was going to volunteerly, i'm going to recommend that we continue to allow us a chance to review the security plan. at this point, we have the cart before the horse and it louz you to layout your security plan and then we can look at it through our staff and provide some feedback and if the need arises, we can then address conditions. this is only me right now, for those, i see a lot of people want to talk tonight. if my colleagues, agree. i think that's the logical step, just to share where i'm heading at the moment. >> we will share the squaourt plan template and looked at it, we were not required to fill it in but it was, we're not against it. >> well i think it puts you in a good position t.shows initiative that you've been saying from the beginning that you're concerned about this and you want to seek solutions but also affords you an opportunity to layout a plan that you feel will work for your business model, and still fun and still creative. yet, also protects the public. >> and accountable. we want to be accountable. >> that's a word i use a lot, i missed that one. that's the path i'm in. >> i want to say that i support the idea. and the next time you come n i want to learn about your governorance structure. ignorance, there is the coop and now 501c, and who has fiduciary responsibilities. >> during the next awed i didn't tell. >>--audit. >> if we continue, do you have any other comments? >> i feel like i'm going in a slightly different path and that, i feel like we can move forward with the staff recommendation. >> yeah, so just to the point of process strictly. talk about putting the cart before the horse, he got ahead of himself and we're still interviewing speaking with the permit holder. what i would like to do, is get public comment and hear from everything and then we can have the actual discussion which is the one that we've done it tonight. sometimes we do motion and public comment. >> it's true. >> so if that can wait. >> yes. >> any further questions? i just really quickly, i think my fellow commissioners have said this over and over again. i kind of think that not everything but some of what i heard tonight, that it makes me feel that you, think the opposite of us of what we're actually here for. it's literally the opposite, we're here twice a month for years many of us and many of us have done this before, we have license holders with much much much trickier situations than yours on a daily basis. situation that's are much more extreme and much much more complicated. so we exist because the police did, the police maybe did not do a good job of enforcing sound fraof. so the voters put this into februarying. it was like reallocation of a job that the police had done before. and this body was created in this department to act as an inter mediate but one of our main, two of our main purpose. so one is that it's in our charter to support night life. we're the only department that required by our charter to support it. like the other, the other places don't have that duel regulation versus support and we take that very seriously and we work hard on that. but the other thing is that, you know, if you are hosting entertainment, that with responsibilities. it brings issues that you don't have if you have an ipad or compute per playing spot fie. the fact is that when you host a event with dj music, people act differently. so i heard a lot of things from you that are going to make me feel promising with our staff and things. but the, the most successful people that come to us with issues where they have neighbors that are upset. they have public leaders that are upset. the ones that really work with us are the ones in my experience and join with us and collaborate, the ones who have everything, tends to work out for them, not always but tends to. and it's the ones that fight and push and say well this person said this and this and that always leads to more conditions and more animosity. i'm a business owner, myself, i just want to be clear. i think you're almost there, but maybe a little flipping of the on the how you view us if you can just say that the way that it's successful so that said, i don't have any further questions. we're going to entertainment public comment here. thank you. so we'll start with comments in-person. speak into. microphone, thank you. >> speaker: what up, i'm javier cervantes, i'm an organizer and the reason that i'm here to support this space is because, i think all sorts of focus on what heather was saying. we feel like like we were targeted in the wrong way and the incident ha happened was not in relation to adobe books. but for some reason or another, it was directed to adobe books. i just want to make it clear. adobe books has been doing events for almost 20 years. spshl the fact that it's on the mission farther quarter on community and i think that's extremely critical especially right now after covid, a lot of really really dope places in the city were lost because of what happened in different ways. but a doan' books are still here. people of all types of colors and all types in general. we want to work with you. so i think it's in relation to that that it's important that our dialogue are coming from both ways. and we're here listening to you, the security events don't necessarily become that large. it's only a few events. and also because the people that come through. a lot of times and things that happen in relation to the tagings that occured, those were people na had nothing to do with adobe. but we're here to work with you to try to resolve this and come together as a group and mitigate these issues we want this to be a positive experience and we want to you support san francisco. in the past we've done workshops that include poetry, written work and art. i personally do, i try to get musicians throughout the city to come together. and a lot as a whole do that. there is a long history, i'm done. >> i'm a curater and i will say it's been pretty relieving to hear the support that we're having from you guys. i will say that, i'm a little traumatized from communicating from other people who have said that they want to communicate and then they don't. i want to reiterate that we're volunteers and the work that we've been doing collectively, there is a lot of potential. there is been so much so many positive tuntsz for all that we've been hosting through the neighborhood. i wish we were not here for certain situation that's happened in the past but we are. i'm very happy that we're here as a collective and, and we're seeing all of these things that you agree with. i think we've been doing our best to regulate the community that do attend. i would say that we don't have parties, we have receptions. for local artist that they're a tracking. and they're inter generational supporters and it's not just, youth but it's our elders and we would like to see more of our elders there. our elders have inspired us. as a curater, i didn't know that adobe had such a rich history that i look up to. and i don't believe in coincidence. so i know that whatever violent situation that occured, it's just it's just keeping us in our toes and where we stand. i think i just want to stop talking, so thank you. >> thank you. ?ment hi, my name is siena i've been volunteering for with adobe for almost 5 years, this is my 5 years. i'm also one of the curator of the music and workshop adobe books. i just wanted to speak to show my support of everything that is going on in the past year, especially since covid because i know a lot of things were lost during the time so it's been difficult trying to navigate the amount of support na we've gotten because we are one of the remaining things that i know of, na like state throughout the entire covid time. and we've been trying to listen to many voices and different opinions on what is best and trying out new things. and i know i'm trying to take not account on what our space is able to host and scale back some of my things. yeah, i guess i received a lot of outside outside calls where people can reach out where they can want to program. i'm trying to maintain a pretty diverse amount of programming in terms of non music and artsz and sorts of events there. so the one thing i wanted to speak on is the first stuff recommendation which has speaking on security guard onsite for all day. i just feel like we don't, we're working on getting more funding which he was speaking on. to have that security and i'm hoping that like us as volunteers can get trained to have these skills in order to be able to handle these situations ourselves. and with that funding, we'll be closer to that goal. a lot of us have been doing this on time. i know i've been hosting events for almost ten years now. i do door and sound and all kinds of things. i hope that shows what we do here. and my time is probably up. so thank you. >> thank you very much. >> my name is matt and adobe has been a vital community space since 89, it's unique on how it gives agency to all of its collective artist members to program space a autonomy. and as one of the mousse pick curater and k-12 teacher myself, i recognize the adobe role it plays and the musicking scene. creative and spontaneity over financial gain. that may or may not be commercially viable. my shows happen twice a month, feature 3 performers and over by 10 usually. since i began booking, we future you'der dozens of artist from all over the world. this is just one of many programs happening as we're hearing in this public comment. volunteers recognize recognizing adobe as a safe space and active place of the community. and new policies and our mission, coinciding with our new profit status. we've hired local security. we have clear signage living attendees to these new policies as part of our new mission statement. we're just getting started to what we hope to be a longer legacy collective space and activating cutting edge edge, 24 street. thank you. >> thank you, i founded adobe books over 20 years ago and i continue my association to this very day. i look forward to another 30 years if possible but it's a culture space. it's a bookstore, and the income is used to pay the rent and foster activity. there is poetry, music and art and there are important things to san francisco. our ability to entertain artist is critical at this point. it would have never lasted this long if there were not artistic people using the space. we've moved, we need to engage in a dialogue with these people. as a matter of safety, we had this ugly incident on friday the 13th but the corner for gang activity. the person who is a victim of this incident, seems to be a gang type person and he was not of the that adobe fofters. he was intimidating, tatoo parlor as tract bad some of the time and i'm upset that that happened. but we are taking steps to be safer. and i welcome the inpuft commission and giving us more guidance. thank you. >> okay, we do have some zoom public comment. and also one written comment. so the first person is going to be js, one second. go ahead. >> thank you so much. my name is janes i moved to the mission district in 2009 to work with the san francisco group for the summer show. and they encouraged through adobe books and i was connected. and connected me to xavier who was the first public commenter and christina, and they have done a great job in hosting. and all events that i've enjoyed. i gave focus to the local art seen and heritage. and and i want to be clear that over the last decade, when i've been at the adobe, i have not encountered alcohol and i never thought that they were uncomfortable or too loud or break laws. and when live music was played, i didn't feel like i need today wear ear plugs or that the event was suited to the bookstore and i've been at events with young children and with their parents and teenagers and everybody has been genuinely happy at the events that i've attended. and the earlier comment of the name of event really being offensive, that's not the events that i've attended. i feel the neighbors have been. it's never been an issue to recommend or events there with my family. so i wanted to comment because i want to say because i think it's important that adobe books respects their neighbors and that they keep their sidewalks clear always. but i also want to say that that's not been an issue at the events that i've attended. and i feel empathy, and i want to clarify that it's a small bookstore and it does not feel like a party inside. last month, i attended an event, there was a dozen people, very low key. my girlfriend and i were there for about an hour. there was no loitering, and i encourage local participation and have neighbors feeling safe and respected, because that's how i felt at adobe. >> thank you. >> thank you. the next person is per sant, i believe one second. >> go ahead. >> speaker: hello can you hear me? >> yes. >> speaker: am i hearable. >> yes, we can hear you, please go on with your comment. >> speaker: here we go. yes we can hear you, you're running out of time. >> please go forward with your comment. >> speaker: can you hear me? >> come on. >> speaker: if somebody can hear me. raise your hand. my name is floyd, i'm an undergrad cartoonist, i group down the street from adobe, i'm 22 years old. my mom she's a community leader, she taught at the elementary school. i love adobe books, i think it's a wonderful place. the thing that sucks about all of this, is for people like myself, you know just like we prefer to be under a rock and crawl out like a spider and you go to adobe books a place where you go and underground cartoonist like myself. and the problem is, we do wonderful things. i had a show at adobe books three years ago. i've been work withing them. the thing that sucks the most, and i think everybody agrees, they're wonderful. some people suck and i'm just trying to draw my comics under a rock. nothing has to do with the environment that we're trying to get which a wonderful event where artist people. yeah, i hope everybody works out. i think the best intention is to be laid on the floor. i don't know, i just hope everything works out. god bless and you know, thank you. i don't think if i'm overtime. thanks. >> thank you, next is going to be cresant. >> speaker: hello, am i still here. >> we got it. >> thank you everybody, thank you for putting me in the queue. and i echo everything that people said about it being a wonderful community space. i also appreciate what heather and other people have said in that we have a wide variety of events. and for example, i curate the literary events. and on the second monday, if you come by, you will see our silent book club which is exactly as it sounds, like maybe five to ten people, silently reading in the bookstore. and an event like that is not necessitating security. we like to think of ourselves as a rowdy bunch. i really appreciate the fact about when we need security and when we not. a number of events, we moved to the middle of the day on the weekend. so the concerns, we're trying to mitigate by moving some events when there is less concern. that's all i wanted to share. thank you for listening to us as a community and we're here as well. >> thank you, and the next person, phone number ending in 9300, go ahead. >> hello. >> hi, how are you today? >> good, you can start your public comment. >> hi, thank you for having this meeting. i my comment is very limited. i think that any help that we can get from the commission to meet with the neighbors to have a meaningful from supervisor, to sit down because like i said, you want to submit a security plan based on event that has nothing to do with the store. and then the three noise complaints are minor. i think it's best to hit it off in the past. it's premature to take a vote and the best course is mediation and put the plan into affect. we visit this in a two to three months. >> thank you. and there is one written comment in the chat so i will read this now. this is from dead g, i'm sorry if i'm pronouncing your name wrong. as a young person from san francisco adobe books has been home since 17. it's the best safest environment that i could have asked for. when other places seem intimidated, adobe sfrd a welcoming hand and a supportive community. and then i have another person p michael. hello i'm a person who visits art shows at adobe books. it's important place to the community of art community in san francisco and the bay area. i believe the show is about building community and they do a fantastic job at that. it's easy to tell what type of shows need security. some are way below capacity and they don't know squaourt for those events. i always felt safe because they're always present. and people in the community to support the safety of everyone that is present. if there is heavy security i feel like there is a tense more tense environment. adobe is doing a great job running the space na the only people showing up are people at the adobe space and not the neighbors who are complaining. that's it for public comment on zoom. sorry, one more person on zoom. and that's it. i'm sorry if i'm pronouncing your name wrong, you're good to speak. >> hi, can you hear me? >> okay, great. >> yeah, my name is shanay, i've been a member of adobe books and a regular volunteer for about a year now. i have a weekly shift at the front door and work events occasionally. and i would like to express my support and appreciation for rebook and also just like, besides the fact that i've been a part of in terms of effort and attention. and optimism and concern that i regularly expect and acted upon five members as we try really our best to be accountable in the way that we run our events, the way that's we offer care and consideration. and in the way thats that we build security. from our coop and to our conversation to one on one conversation among members and our planning efforts all of that is very true and yeah, i support i just want to say that. many of us have already said that we're here and appreciative of your support and effort and i hope that all of you will continue to support us. and also be patient and take into consider all of all of these moving components and actors involved involved in the situation as farce what we're able to control on what goes on with the street. when it comes to things that happen on the street. even the city is not able to control you know, the events or things like so and even more so, we're limited and we're doing our best. >> okay, great thank you. there was one more commenter that was added. buck? go ahead, you should be able to go. >> yes, thank you. i, i have been a mission resident since 1988, just a tiny bit longer. and i'm a patron since adobe started. and as a patron, i would like to really beg the commission not to enforce any security for adobe. i really feel for the last 34 years, much safer adobe at virtually any other business in the mission. and i would find it oppressive to face with security when i feel like i'm normal going to my friend's house for all of these years. i hope that i can say that as a san francisco resident, business owner in the mission and so somebody who is loved the mission and found their new family and their new home since leaving the east coast and coming here. and i feel like being said every time i want to go to adobe books, really really dampen the feelings that i have more that business. thank you. >> thank you. there are no more new public comment. >> all right, i'm going to close public comment. discussion. >> so we heard one, from commissioner falson about the lack of security plans so far. so that's on the table but i know commissioner tomas you wanted to add your comment as well. >> yeah, i feel like liekt permit holder is already doing a number of things in the staff recommendations in terms of not having in and outs and they already posted signs and they've already hired a security guard. i feel they were fine with an amount around the security guard in termds of which types events i really agree. i agree that it does not make zebs to have a security guard for every event. and i think my suggestion would be that we trust them to identify which events require security and try that out. because i think it's over kill to require a security guard for every vent but i do want there to be security guard for the large events. the ones that spill people. the security guard is not about, yes people feel very safe inside, it's about mostly managing crowd control. making sure that there is no alcohol and making sure that people are moving. i agree with the security plan. i think it would be a good idea and if necessary come back in front of this council but i'm also confident in entertainment commission staff's ability to review a security plan. >> i think the problem is that we're limited because they don't have a condition saying that they have to abide by security plan. so any security plan they submit if we don't require a follow-up hearing to review that, would not be a condition of the permit. so just wanted to point that out. >> so if we move forward with staff recommendation sxz require them to submit a security plan that is reviewed at a future hearing. >> that could be but that would be similar to what they're proposing. it would be coming up as a another hearing of the discussion action to then make them around complying security plan. i'm feeling like we want to move ahead with adding the recommendation now given that they are, that we're all in alignment about all the staff recommendation. and that we all agree on this, because i feel that is part of then, if neighbors are concerned, we can say look we've already agreed on this. and we're putting those into place. if you want to go eliminate or refine it? i think we had proposed security at any entertainment event, meaning codified as how we define entertainment. and for clarity he sake, that would rule out any amplified performer, so any poetry or anything concerned having security in that situation, we understand that. again we were hoping that they would have security for their event where they have bands and djs. >> and that sounds like that's consistent. >> i think it's their saying too because it's a coop model, then members of the coop can participate in the capacity of employees as well as volunteers without being paid. we're open to that, definitely. >> i think it's how you describe security. >> for the argument wiz i'm expensive too. security guard does not necessarily mean a giant person with a black jacket on it. that's not. >> it would be amending the condition. i agree with you. >> they could still be identifiable but it does not have to be like what you think. >> yeah, but we're speaking to the training component, that's what they can leverage. >> yes, some training and deescalation. >> yes, and having somebody who is dedicated to that. that night, right? knowing where is the person who is the dedicated security. it's funny, that's of all, other than making sure the sidewalk is clear which is very very important responsible that we all have to do as business owners. we have to figure out how to thread that needle. it sounds like there are some consensus like poetry reading and art show. >> i'm not sure they fall. >> where there is live entertainment in the form of a live mousse al performance or dj that a security guard is appropriate, especially given the rising number of complaints and violations. it sounds like with the other recommendation that's those are feasible. a lot of being implemented and maybe for a 7th we could add and security plan that is approved by staff and that way we don't have to revisit it at a future meeting. i don't think we're risk in being in harms way. what i'm trying to suggest is to further this, this and then, we could then focus on conditions because at a minimum to the executive director's point. i think people are still when he's really saying is your staff can all get golf carts. that would get us a long way down the path. the president made it clear and it seem like a lot of public comment kept going back to this. or of the entire enterprise. we have issued that are way more complex. allow the coop to work on their security plan their counselor has a wealth of experience in this arena and i have no doubt that they'll come back with a solid product and at the same time, they can collaborate off line and when it comes back, we can go from there. >> it's going fob renney's boiler place. >> all of us. pleased to work. >> it's not off the internet. >> like michael anglo in marvel. the reason i'm in agreement. i actually don't like conditions, i think they do open you up to conflicts of interest and well, knit picky things. would prefer not to put a lot of conditions on anyone's license until, it's clear that there are no other options. not to five to six months, in a short period of time, it does not take too long and maybe to commissioner point, the only condition is you follow this by security plan that you can then share with others. >> i will also say that it makes it more nimble if they have a security plan that they're suppose to comply with t it gives us an ability to issue a director's order. it feels like they have feel heavy. i have a nonprofit and i work with it as well. we name our security guards public safety, just so it sounds softer and sometimes, giving volunteers you feel like they're like they're going to do something. we're calling security guard because that's the word that we use. and i want to recommend that in here, identifiable security guard that, that actually wearing something that identified as public safety volunteers. >> i did not mean they should blend in perfectly, but it's checking things and being mean to people when they come in the door. like a club, some club security is. >> it does not have to be that. >> if i talk about the police. >> no comment, no comment. >> it's not on the public record, i think. so we have two motions. do you have any thought, change of thoughts? >> no i like where this is going with ask them to develop a security plan and come back. >> great dialogue. i think it illustrates, i don't know where this rumor started that we don't support business, that's the most bizarre that somebody filled your head that we don't support business. it's coming from the cop in the committee or commission, i should say. i ask that they create a security plan. >> second it. do you want to identify one that would be march 7 or provide further time. >> let's do the one after that. >> so march 21. >> yes. >> okay. >> yes, and i feel like, i'm and i think there is a lot of freedom about how it fits into your coop model and what kind of training and you know, there is a lot of deescalation training that is available out there makes this work for your business model and the culture of adobe books. i hope that's what you're hearing from up here. and much of is focused on outside of the building and not inside the building. so that we can keep everybody safe. >> we have to vote right? >> yes. >> all right. >> we have a second, we can vote. >> ready. >> yes. >> president bliemman. >> aye. >> vice president kamino. >> aye. >> commissioner. >> aye. >> commissioner thomas. >> aye. >> commissioner perez. >> aye. >> and commissioner wong. >> aye. >> continued to march 21. >> okay, moving along we'll get to the last item, commissioners questions and comments. what do we got? >> join mayor london breed and state tax controller and supervisor, shamal for tomorrow night's black history month celebration, it's called a homecoming and it's going to be a festive evening, i hope you join us. >> i'm about to go see san francisco band, if anybody wants to go with me as part of sound pop. >> i went to doerty's boyfriend's birthday party, it's the best music. unbelievable, any public comment on our last agenda item? >> no comments on this idea. --item. >> okay, we'll close public comment. and we'll adjourn the meeting at 8:12 p.m. thank you. >> i don't think you need to be an expert to look around and see the increasing frequency of fires throughout california. they are continuing at an ever-increasing rate every summer, and as we all know, the drought continues and huge shortages of water right now. i don't think you have to be an expert to see the impact. when people create greenhouse gases, we are doing so by different activities like burning fossil fuels and letting off carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and we also do this with food waste. when we waste solid food and leave it in the landfill, it puts methane gas into the atmosphere and that accelerates the rate at which we are warming our planet and makes all the effects of climate change worse. the good news is there are a lot of things that you can be doing, particularly composting and the added benefit is when the compost is actually applied to the soil, it has the ability to reverse climate change by pulling carbon out of the atmosphere and into the soil and the t radios. and there is huge amount of science that is breaking right now around that. >> in the early 90s, san francisco hired some engineers to analyze the material san francisco was sending to landfill. they did a waste characterization study, and that showed that most of the material san francisco was sending to landfill could be composted. it was things like food scraps, coffee grounds and egg shells and sticks and leaves from gardening. together re-ecology in san francisco started this curbside composting program and we were the first city in the country to collect food scraps separately from other trash and turn them into compost. it turns out it was one of the best things we ever did. it kept 2.5 million tons of material out of the landfill, produced a beautiful nutrient rich compost that has gone on to hundreds of farms, orchards and vineyards. so in that way you can manage your food scraps and produce far less methane. that is part of the solution. that gives people hope that we're doing something to slow down climate change. >> i have been into organic farming my whole life. when we started planting trees, it was natural to have compost from re-ecology. compost is how i work and the soil biology or the microbes feed the plant and our job as regenerative farmers is to feed the microbes with compost and they will feed the plant. it is very much like in business where you say take care of your employees and your employees will take carolinas of your customers. the same thing. take care of the soil microbes and soil life and that will feed and take care of the plants. >> they love compost because it is a nutrient rich soil amendment. it is food for the soil. that is photosynthesis. pulling carbon from the atmosphere. pushing it back into the soil where it belongs. and the roots exude carbon into the soil. you are helping turn a farm into a carbon sink. it is an international model. delegations from 135 countries have come to study this program. and it actually helped inspire a new law in california, senate bill 1383. which requires cities in california to reduce the amount of compostable materials they send to landfills by 75% by 2025. and san francisco helped inspire this and this is a nation-leading policy. >> because we have such an immature relationship with nature and the natural cycles and the carbon cycles, government does have to step in and protect the commons, which is soil, ocean, foryes, sir, and so forth. -- forest, and so fors. we know that our largest corporations are a significant percentage of carbon emission, and that the corporate community has significant role to play in reducing carbon emissions. unfortunately, we have no idea and no requirement that they disclose anything about the carbon footprint, the core operation and sp360 stands for the basic notion that large corporations should be transparent about the carbon footprint. it makes all the sense in the world and very common sense but is controversial. any time you are proposing a policy that is going to make real change and that will change behavior because we know that when corporations have to disclose and be transparent and have that kind of accountability, there is going to be opposition. >> we have to provide technical assistance to comply with the state legislation sb1383 which requires them to have a food donation program. we keep the edible food local. and we are not composting it because we don't want to compost edible food. we want that food to get eaten within san francisco and feed folks in need. it is very unique in san francisco we have such a broad and expansive education program for the city. but also that we have partners in government and nonprofit that are dedicated to this work. at san francisco unified school district, we have a sustainability office and educators throughout the science department that are building it into the curriculum. making it easy for teachers to teach about this. we work together to build a pipeline for students so that when they are really young in pre-k, they are just learning about the awe and wonder and beauty of nature and they are connecting to animals and things they would naturally find love and affinity towards. as they get older, concepts that keep them engaged like society and people and economics. >> california is experiencing many years of drought. dry periods. that is really hard on farms and is really challenging. compost helps farms get through these difficult times. how is that? compost is a natural sponge that attracts and retains water. and so when we put compost around the roots of plants, it holds any moisture there from rainfall or irrigation. it helps farms make that corner and that helps them grow for food. you can grow 30% more food in times of drought in you farm naturally with compost. farms and cities in california are very hip now to this fact that creating compost, providing compost to farms helps communities survive and get through those dry periods. >> here is the thing. soil health, climate health, human health, one conversation. if we grow our food differently, we can capture all that excess carbon in the atmosphere and store it in unlimited quantities in the soil, that will create nutrient dense foods that will take care of most of our civilized diseases. so it's one conversation. people have to understand that they are nature. they can't separate. we started prowling the high plains in the 1870s and by the 1930s, 60 year, we turned it into a dust bowl. that is what ignorance looks like when you don't pay attention to nature. nature bats last. so people have to wake up. wake up. compost. >> it is really easy to get frustrated because we have this belief that you have to be completely sustainable 24/7 in all aspects of your life. it is not about being perfect. it is about making a change here, a change there in your life. maybe saying, you know what? i don't have to drive to that particular place today. today i am going to take the bus or i'm going to walk. it is about having us is stainable in mind. that is -- it is about having sustainability in mind. that is how we move the dial. you don't have to be perfect all the time. >> san francisco has been and will continue to be one of the greener cities because there are communities who care about protecting a special ecosystem and habitat. thinking about the history of the ohlone and the native and indigenous people who are stewards of this land from that history to now with the ambitious climate action plan we just passed and the goals we have, i think we have a dedicated group of people who see the importance of this place. and who put effort into building an infrastructure that actually makes it possible. >> we have a long history starting with the gold rush and the anti-war activism and that is also part of the environmental movement in the 60s and 70s. and of course, earth day in 1970 which is huge. and i feel very privileged to work for the city because we are on such a forefront of environmental issues, and we get calls from all over the world really to get information. how do cities create waste programs like they do in san francisco. we are looking into the few which you are and we want innovation. we want solutions. >> i view san francisco almost as a sibling or a parent or something. i just love the city. i love everything about it. when i'm away from it, i miss it like a person. i grew up in san francisco kind of all over the city. we had pretty much the run of the city 'cause we lived pretty close to polk street, and so we would -- in the summer, we'd all all the way down to aquatic park, and we'd walk down to the library, to the kids' center. in those days, the city was safe and nobody worried about us running around. i went to high school in spring valley. it was over the hill from chinatown. it was kind of fun to experience being in a minority, which most white people don't get to experience that often. everything was just really within walking distance, so it make it really fun. when i was a teenager, we didn't have a lot of money. we could go to sam wong's and get super -- soup for $1. my parents came here and were drawn to the beatnik culture. they wanted to meet all of the writers who were so famous at the time, but my mother had some serious mental illness issues, and i don't think my father were really aware of that, and those didn't really become evident until i was about five, i guess, and my marriage blew up, and my mother took me all over the world. most of those ad ventures ended up bad because they would end up hospitalized. when i was about six i guess, my mother took me to japan, and that was a very interesting trip where we went over with a boyfriend of hers, and he was working there. i remember the open sewers and gigantic frogs that lived in the sewers and things like that. mostly i remember the smells very intensely, but i loved japan. it was wonderful. toward the end. my mother had a breakdown, and that was the cycle. we would go somewhere, stay for a certain amount of months, a year, period of time, and she would inevitably have a breakdown. we always came back to san francisco which i guess came me some sense of continuity and that was what kept me sort of stable. my mother hated to fly, so she would always make us take ships places, so on this particular occasion when i was, i think, 12, we were on this ship getting ready to go through the panama canal, and she had a breakdown on the ship. so she was put in the brig, and i was left to wander the ship until we got to fluorfluora few days later, where we had a distant -- florida a few days later, where we had a distant cousin who came and got us. i think i always knew i was a writer on some level, but i kind of stopped when i became a cop. i used to write short stories, and i thought someday i'm going to write a book about all these ad ventures that my mother took me on. when i became a cop, i found i turned off parts of my brain. i found i had to learn to conform, which was not anything i'd really been taught but felt very safe to me. i think i was drawn to police work because after coming from such chaos, it seemed like a very organized, but stable environment. and even though things happening, it felt like putting order on chaos and that felt very safe to me. my girlfriend and i were sitting in ve 150d uvio's bar, and i looked out the window and i saw a police car, and there was a woman who looked like me driving the car. for a moment, i thought i was me. and i turned to my friend and i said, i think i'm supposed to do this. i saw myself driving in this car. as a child, we never thought of police work as a possibility for women because there weren't any until the mid70's, so i had only even begun to notice there were women doing this job. when i saw here, it seemed like this is what i was meant to do. one of my bosses as ben johnson's had been a cop, and he -- i said, i have this weird idea that i should do this. he said, i think you'd be good. the department was forced to hire us, and because of all of the posters, and the big recruitment drive, we were under the impression that they were glad to have us, but in reality, most of the men did not want the women there. so the big challenge was constantly feeling like you had to prove yourself and feeling like if you did not do a good job, you were letting down your entire gender. finally took an inspector's test and passed that and then went down to the hall of justice and worked different investigations for the rest of my career, which was fun. i just felt sort of buried alive in all of these cases, these unsolved mysteries that there were just so many of them, and some of them, i didn't know if we'd ever be able to solve, so my boss was able to get me out of the unit. he transferred me out, and a couple of weeks later, i found out i had breast cancer. my intuition that the job was killing me. i ended up leaving, and by then, i had 28 years or the years in, i think. the writing thing really became intense when i was going through treatment for cancer because i felt like there were so many parts that my kids didn't know. they didn't know my story, they didn't know why i had a relationship with my mother, why we had no family to speak of. it just poured out of me. i gave it to a friend who is an editor, and she said i think this would be publishable and i think people would be interested in this. i am so lucky to live here. i am so grateful to my parents who decided to move to the city. i am so grateful they did. that it neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr >> okay. good evening and welcome to the february 22, 2023 san francisco board of appeals rick swig will be presides joined by jose lopez. commissioner lemberg. commissioner vocabulary venal and commissioner eppler and john will provide with legal advice. at the patrols is the legal a cestant and i'm julie
bring us up to date. that's what i said. the 2 men were summoned to the pallet for an audience with the king this evening. following that meeting, we didn't. yes. and held a press conference where he said he has obtained the support of more than a 100 of, of a 115 members of parliament, expressing best support for him to be the prime minister. the next prime minister of malaysia. now, 112 is the number needed for a simple majority and we didn't. yes. and says that because of this, he should be the next prime minister of malaysia. he also says that he is not able to work with the alliance of hope. that is the block led by on abraham and has declined a request by from the king to form a unity government. now on why brought him was the leader of the opposition. his block, the alliance of hope is the largest block with 82 out of 222 seats. but that is still not enough to form a majority down. he had been meeting with members of the national frontal rather members of parliament from the national front. this is a party that had dominated malaysian politics for more than 60 years, and they are traditional rivals now. initially, it was thought that these 2 would come together to form an alliance that would have given them enough to form a simple majority. but members of the national front have said that they would, they will remain in opposition that they will not be aligning with either side. now the king now has said that the they, the king will be meeting with all 30 m p. 's from the national front to help him decide who he thinks will be able to command the confidence of the majority in parliament. though it has to be said that this is not bringing any political stability that malaysia so desperately needs. the elections were called partly to bring back political stability, seeing that 2 administrations had collapsed because of infighting and defections the fight. but there's still no government yet. 3 days after the election really is leaving many to wonder whether the country will be able to whether the next coalition government that is form will be able to bring that political stability to malaysia. thank you for that, florence larry there for us in kuala lumpur. you're up to date, stay with us in story next. ah. ah. another cop, another failure to save the planet, the 27th edition of the un conferences of parties ended with no agreement to curb emissions. but a deal was agreed on a climate damage and last one is that enough and these conferences serve any purpose. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i manage a job for the 1st time members at the united nations climate conference have agreed to compensate poorer nations hit hardest by climate change. delegates from low income countries say they're optimistic that's despite no agreements being reached on where the money will come from, nor how it will be distributed. there were also no no commitment on curbing greenhouse gas emissions. and while there is optimism, some nations left egypt saying not enough progress was made. we'll begin our discussion in a moment. but 1st, let's listen to what some leaders had to say. we recognize that there have been indications of a disappointment in certain courses who have a higher degree of ambition. but that disappointment, i think, should be within context. i think the level of ambition of all of the parties is equal. so it is, i think, important during the year of presidency until we hand over to the merits. i will be an advocate for the preservation of the $1.00 for the increase of all ambition within the capabilities, those are available. cop 27 concludes with much homework and little time. we are already off way with the betty scrub agreements and the 2030 deadline. we need all hands on deck to that. i've just this and then mission. and he's also includes the vision to the suicidal water nature that he's willing, the climate prizes the european union came here to get strong language agreed, and we are disappointed. we didn't achieve this. i strongly urge us all to roll up our sleeves and show to the world that the fight for ambition for a better future is not yet over. tear nurses. valley this year is the 1st year after the implementation. details of the paris agreement were agreed and also marks the 30th anniversary of the signing of the united nations framework convention on climate change. therefore, egypt has said the theme of this conference as delivering to stress implementation, and that all parties need to deliver on their promises more. egypt is also a developing nation. this years cub conference is held in a developing country, reached an achievement in the establishment of the loss and damage fund that it could be seen as a highlight. the conference also decided to establish a global adapt asian framework. these are all strongly urged by developing countries. ah. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests from brussels. kiara martinelli, climate action network, europe director from nairobi up the i to a former minister of planning in somalia and a former senior un official. and from keel in the u. k. sharon george senior lecturer in environmental sustainability and green technology at kil university. a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story abbey. let me start with you today. just how significant is it that this loss and damage fund was set up during comp 27 and and, and do you think that it actually will help developing nations cope with climate change going forward? there is no question that this set up. oh, this one is a tremendous progress when you look at the totality of the efforts that have been made over the last many years and in relation to the climate prices there. but we need to remember that this is only a fun. ready there's no money in it just for now, and probably not for another year or so while the committee works on the details. that's number one. but more importantly, i think for the fun when and if it goes on an operational, it is supposed to help developing countries to try to mitigate the climate crisis flooding droughts. a famine in this part of the wall in the horn of africa. it's supposed to do that in theory, but a lot of the details are, are not there yet. so we'll have to wait until the committee actually finishes its work in about a year time. i'll be alone. just follow up because the fact of the matter is, as you said, there is no money in this fund yet. essentially, this is a bucket that was set up and the bucket is still empty and there have been other times it in the last 10 years or so when funds were set up. i believe there was an adaptation fund where a poor nation's developing countries were supposed to get a $100000000000.00 a year. and i don't believe they're getting anywhere near that. if anything at all . i mean, is there any sense of when these funds might start being available to the countries? well, it's very difficult to imagine that this fun will receive the amount of money that it was supposed to be receiving. considering the fact that a lot of these countries, the big emitter, for example, the united states and other big countries are democracies and their power of the 1st rescue with congress. for example, india that we know that by the administration will face a divided congress for the next 2 years. so with the republicans in charge of the lower house, the congress, you know, i can't foresee them approving money for the united nations fund. and they've already criticized the same can be said of our other western democracy. so i think, you know, it's always expected out of the international conferences to lay out very lofty goals and ultimately fall significantly shorter on there. and i think unfortunately it sounds like, you know, the mobile i don't want to preclude the possibility of actually it's being worked out quite reduces me share and i saw you reacting to some of what to do with saying there. so i'm going to let you jump in but, but i also want to ask you from your perspective, was enough accomplished at cop 27? no. any or no, not. not in terms of what was seen with climate change. now. you know, you can lie, can they say, you know, a floating top fluid in the floor and all this is doing is, is kind of knocking off the damage that's been caused. and it's not really enough investment into what's going to happen. and what we're seeing is this, this kind of roving situation. climate change becoming worse, i think will become, was with the emissions where the bath and not know have this has been that in terms of planning for the future. we just kind of mitigating against what has happened and just kind of invest, you know, keeping in touch the to keep carrying on doing what we're doing. and so we could business as usual case, and i think a lot more agency needs to be done right now. especially to affect those, those countries that are, you know, they're going to lose all ability to live where they let you know that it is religion, say a more fun game right now. but for people that are affected right now, if i could get your thoughts on, on cop 27 from your perspective, what were some of its successes and what were some of its failures? yes, i think one of the major success and i think we do need to celebrate is agreement of all countries to finally with poor countries request to create a found lesson damage. and i think this is important to recognise, even if, as we have been seeing, that there is a lot of work to be done in terms of to, to make it to open a tional. but i think it's important politically that all countries agreed to in africa to deliver on nothing demo finance. and i think it needs to be to be, to be a life. of course, we are worried about the full work and movies, keep our precious pressure to make sure that these find the get all the press to do that proceed procedure on the teeth that are needed to, to make that is still petition on as the copper next year i think it's important to see that of course to be do as a see society from over the world to be due to these or so as any success over the validation that see society have been doing it on the last. and there are financial facility, try to do it here. and overall a, do i give you? so that is comp 27. again, the phase the on did evening and it ended evening enough for a concrete step forward to try this. declare mcbride, is that the that we are facing today? and if he could, this is again, mr. paternity, we do need to do some needs. natalie to confirm commitments, but actually to deny it. and now you're in terms of a target and in terms of financial engagement and commitment to across the dual globe. sharon, i saw you nodding along, i want to give you an opportunity to, to add to the point she was making if you'd like. yeah. can you eat not just, you know, it's not just about that kind of stuff on jane and that kind of emergency response funding. it's just about putting vestment futures and making that equitable a make not fat and an accessible. and that's going to be a challenge to do it, to speed that we need to do. and in the me, in the meantime, you know, we got by diversity and 40 for the moment will lose. same species with climate change has a bigger impact. and just the can all make, and at the moment we will still invested around the world and fossil fuels. and the copyright. we've talked about billions of pounds and age to how combat climate change that we're also spending money on combats he cut his will to work in the other way with fossils, heels and that we need to really take their serious at carpet. * cars of real and leadership role to take a school edge and this respect nothing. we just not quite there and we need that that focus and that one place gladly if we're going to make it, we're going to take seriously abdi, you know, we were speaking earlier about the fact that there's still a lot of decisions to be made even when it comes to setting up this loss and, and damage funding. and it seems as though the negotiators, those that were present a cup 27, have essentially kicked the can down the road and said the things will most likely be decided next year before cop 28. at least some of the more difficult decisions i want to ask you, what are some of the more difficult decisions i'm asking that because it clearly, it was very difficult even getting to this point. so what, beyond this point is even more difficult that it couldn't be agreed to this year. well, a number of things. so 1st of all, in the amount of money that needs to go into the fun needs to be determined and where would it come from? i mean, we know that the $20.00 largest economies around the world are responsible for about roughly 80 percent of greenhouse gas emissions. and so, and we also know this is a very unique situation. china, which is currently probably the largest emitter of greenhouse gas emissions, is in fact considered and classified by the u. n. as a developing countries, not as a developed country. and so when you are classified like that, but you are a large emitter of greenhouse gases, you know, how much are you going to contribute? those are some of the details that need to be worked out. but also, you know, lawson damage also entails inherently liability. and some of the big countries, like the u. s. are avoiding to be in a situation where they're trapped in some sort of a legal liability, perpetual legal liabilities for greenhouse gas emissions. so it is going to be quite complex before we arrive at a, at a sensible fun and even then, i think it'll be a much less than what people have in mind today. karen, sharon was talking about what's really needed right now from her perspective is for the world to speak with one voice when it comes to action that that really needs to be taken to combat climate change going forward. that being said, you know, cop 27 there was a lot riding on that. and yet still you see that there were a lot of divisions among the participating nations. so have cop gatherings actually served much of a purpose over the years. i mean, they have they been able to accomplish much since they started holding them decades ago? no, i mean, i think a desk knocking out for the 8th the answer. but if we also needed to, i like that and point out that we don't have an alternative. so what we have today is the state, the only space where old countries poor and each counties began big polluters and it was most impacted by kind of change can beef it on one table and take decisions as to move forward. so i think not enough is my chart times where, but the same time, this is the states we should protect and we should the strength and actually to make sure that come at action is faster. and really in as winning to the urgency, we see, i think that the way we needed to do that is a to exactly what we were saying was said charmaine shake to make sure that this phase, the leader to the seasons across the 3 main p. last of the pace agreement, the other taishan clinic mitigation l, as in them as and not putting one or the other p learning competition or towards one another. alyssa, i think the most important thing to make these the cops in the future is still relevant and impactful. is it protect the death space from the facetious interests and meaning like ensuring better in the space, remain a democratic, remain in a lee led by governments and by delegates. and also ensuring that civil society as a voice in terms of making sure that the experience and expertise, but also the struggles of communities on the ground, are part of the conversation in order to influence the decision set that we wanted to see. and coming out of these cops and sharon edge, how long have um, have poorer countries and developing countries been been seeking this kind of help from, from richer countries and, and how big a, when, you know, we can talk more about whether or not this money is actually put aside, but just the fact that i got to this point how, how big a win is that are for the poor countries are and, and for the developing countries that they even got this well and $0.01. there's been a kind of admission that this needs to happen, an agreement that to massive achievement. but looking back, you know, in, in direct ways climate change has been starting to have an impact quite slowly and, and, but also not just climate change. actually. the impact of energy, exploitation, and energy, the energy market has, you know, it has had an impact internationally on some nations more than others. and we've called complex issues around things like, you know, deforestation losses the amazon and massively complicated issues around i would need for energy coupled with economic complexity complex to around a countries here need to develop income. so it's a complex picture and, and in that mix as well, you've got people with different social positions within that, those economies. and so you know that, that, that's a very tricky question to answer. but i think what, what is needed? i think one of the things that hasn't really been addressed in any of the cops is anything like the accountability that we need that way. as a consequence, if, if, if nothing happens, then nothing happens. and there is no consequence the economy that's kind of could, can come down the road. so i think what would be nice to say is, is more accountability and consequence for those nations that don't pull that collect his way to, to address this problem. i think that is, you know, that's something i think needs to be embedded in future cops to, to really capture specific, talking and sharing. but let me just ask when it comes to the kind of pressure that activists and that in joe's were able to put on the participants in, in cop 27 was that different this year than it has been in previous years? i think so. i think that's a real sense of urgency and, and, and you know, in terms of public voice and the voice of those, those organizations that are doing the campaigning. i think this a real frustration that's coming through of the lack of urgency and the lack of action. i don't think that some found nothing. that voice is going to become louder . and i think that's something we're quick. you know, if people are not really listen to and they protest and they campaign, and i think that's something that we're going to law off from. so the things start to really change care i saw reacting quite a bit to what sharon was saying. so i wanted to see if you'd like to jump in. yeah, i totally agree. i think a device of cd society not to be the was quite strong. it is copper for even with the little presence that be at the, at the venue. but i think what is important, a light is that is advice that is getting stronger and stronger across the globe. so it's not all in one country or denied or so and visiting would be extremely important as a voice to be supported, especially in that, on up to the next copper to make sure that was the, the, the, and the season and the loss in them as font is a quickly taken a, as in, with all the steps that are needed to make that operational. and i also think that that is, is it something we need to think through more as the c v societal transition or now to link up all this pressure to the pressure that intern everyone is doing any, any their own country? because i think in accountability as a sharon said, this is the key for this for the improvement of this process. but also monitoring and monitoring the seasons and monitoring or without the steps that have been and been taken off. the pledges that has been done a let me allow me to mention as an example, that many european countries in put forward some financial pledges for lesson damage. in the 1st week of the call, i think that the debt had to for sure to line it on did the decision on the, on the lawson demos fund. but now we need to make sure that these finance these, the financial commitment is the additional and is the well well if channel is through the right procedures and allied right schemes to make that operational. abdi one of the more unexpected things that happened while kept when someone was going on was the announcement by the u. s. and china that they were going to resume cooperating when it came to try to talk about a climate change and, and other issues from your perspective, did that give more momentum to what was going on a cop 27? did that help some of these processes along there is no question about that. us and china are the 2 largest economy. and by definition, they are also the 2 largest emitters of greenhouse gas emissions to this day. and so their cooperation is kind of called for the success of op, $27.00, and this whole sort of environmental process. but mom and i think we need to remind ourselves that the overarching object. ready of the international dialogue around environment is to reach the 1.5 degrees celsius pre industrial level of you know, in terms of the emission. now the, the commitment to that objective remains incredibly, even after decades of, of negotiations. a lot of countries are willing to do it, but my colleague that the monitoring of aspect of it remains incredibly big and more importantly, a lot of western countries are seeing the resurgence of 55 right. politicians are actually also climate deny or is, i mean, they don't even believe that we are sprinting into climate crises that will be in the us or western europe and so on and so forth. and i suspect that unfortunately, that new reality will have an adverse impact on the negotiations in the coming years, especially in many more, right? politicians come to power in western democracies. sharon was just talking there about the goal of keeping global warming to 1.5 degrees celsius above pre industrial levels based on, on what you saw coming out of of comp 27. is that something that is still achievable and also, you know, there had been a recommitment that the globe needs to cut greenhouse gas emissions nearly and a half by 2030. do you think that that is something that is still achievable? thank it's really worrying, but we're still seeing investment in fossil fuels of what these massively and because she's target didn't matter. we have to cut c o 2 by i didn't think given current progress and climate change is already here. now i think chief about if we just carry on businesses, no, not even with the targets that we have with them. well miss, you're going to miss that target massively. so i think we need investment and technology is not just carpet, carpet negative, you know, we need to be really proactive about that. and that's a huge step forward. and over in a book what's already been promised. so, you know, just just an acceleration in terms of the targets that we have is not enough. so, you know, i think this brings together the power it reports i p c. c, where the, the scientific community can gather and present the evidence to independence. those decisions, but i think we'll be all now thinking in terms of just the konami terms. i think if we think about climate change just economically and, and keep pushing the come down the road on economic decisions. and as you say with these politicians who are coming on goal to and not on board with the agency seriousness we need to in the you know, it's very easy to know these impacts when we don't think much flooding or we don't see the extremes in the way that the nation state. ready it's easy to deny, i think we're all going to have us to have things like more depth in terms of our culture and costs and imports and exports and, and also human migration is going to see rise. and so, you know, it's ways we're very serious situation. all right, well we have run out of time. we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guests, kara marinelli, d i n t and sharon george. and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at ha, inside stored for me. mm hm. mm hm. jerome the whole team here doha bye for now. ah ah. and that the tories terraces of the football luxuries, why club loyalty can mean violence, confrontation when i was young, when there was a football match, we were frightened because the friends got to go crazy. but in indonesia, one group of revolutionary supporters has taken a stand against mail aggression, with a con of alaska display of peace and unity. the finds who make football altruism angels on al jazeera with to inculcate a culture of knowledge, openness, and pluralism world wide. and to reward merit and excellence and encourage creativity. the shake come out award for translation and international understanding was founded to promote translation and honor translators, and acknowledged a road and strengthening the bonds of friendship and co operation between arab islamic and wild couches. when the taliban took control with afghanistan in august 2021, it sparked a mass exit in a special to pot report, one of one ace makes the chinese entrepreneur with the other way on. out of europe award winning documentary is from around the world on now to a 0. ah, i'm sammy's a diamond.
a single battalion of kenyan troops is going to make a difference. now, says, optimist. spacecraft has reached the moon's orbit, the organ capsule past 530 kilometers above the lunar surface. will now continue a larger obit for 3 weeks on man spacecraft, flu of the landing site, self. apollo, 1112 and 14. as it made its initial approach. ah, it says al jazeera, these top stories is aneesha, the president has visited the center. monday's earthquake leads to 103 people were killed when the trauma hit, the town of change or in west java. so could we go to announce compensation for victims? best families, a powerful earthquake has struck the solomon islands. the magnitude 7 quake knocked out power in parts of the capitol when he ira said ami warning was issued, but it since been withdrawn. tech he is, president says he's considering the launching a ground operation in northern syria. several rockets fired from syria struck the southern border district to ca, commission monday, killing 3 people, including a child named gashodi reports from there. although the air campaign conducted by the turkish armed forces targeting us several, a y, p g, and peaky cape positions is over tit for tat continues. we are in cargo mission border district of ga santa. and we are nearly 400 or 500 meters from the border and is since we arrived here, we can still hear a shelling oxidative shelling. it from both sides against each other as a to q conducted the operation. the y p g groups be why the representatives and the be kiki has been claiming that true kia, targeted their civilian areas. malicious king is expected to choose a prime minister liaison tuesday of to saturdays election fail to produce an outright winner. governing coalition is agreed to be in opposition after failing to agree on a coalition. your effective state, antony blinkin has meeting the guitar, a deputy prime minister on the foreign minister shake mohammed bin until rock man al. tawny in doha state departments is blinking. will recognize cat as contribution to sports to play with spiraling costs. dwindling supplies. the shock is being felt around the world with the war in ukraine, triggering gas deploy uncertainty. europeans bracing themselves for an unprecedented winter. al jazeera reports on the human costs of the winter energy crisis, another cop, another failure to save the planet. the 27th edition of the un conferences of parties ended with no agreement to curb emissions. but a deal was agreed on a climate damage. and last one is that enough and these conferences serve any purpose. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i manage a job for the 1st time members of the united nations climate conference have agreed to compensate poorer nations hit hardest by climate change. delegates from low income country say they are optimistic. that's despite no agreements being reached on where the money will come from, nor how it will be distributed. there were also no no commitments on curbing greenhouse gas emissions. and while there is optimism, some nations left egypt saying not enough progress was made. we'll begin our discussion in a moment, but 1st let's listen to what some leaders had to say. we recognize that there have been indications of a disappointment in certain courses who have a higher degree of ambition. but that disappointment, i think, should be within context. i think the level of ambition of all of the parties is equal. so it is, i think, important during the year of presidency until we hand over to the merits. i will be an advocate for the preservation of the $1.00 for the increase of all ambition within the capabilities, those are available. cop 27 concludes with much homework and little time. we are already halfway between the various credit agreements and the 2030 deadline. we need all hands on deck to that. i've just this and then vision. and this also includes the vision to the suicidal water nature that he was filling. the climate rises, the european union came here to get strong language agreed, and we are disappointed. we didn't achieve this. i strongly urge us all to roll up our sleeves and show to the world that the fight for ambition for a better future is not yet over. tear nurses. valley this year is the 1st year after the implementation. details of the paris agreement were agreed and also marks the 30th anniversary of the signing of the united nations framer convention on climate change. therefore, egypt has set the theme of this conference as delivering to stress implementation. and that all parties need to deliver on their promises. emma egypt is also a developing nation. this year's cup conference is held in a developing country, reached an achievement in the establishment of the loss and damage fund that it could be seen as a highlight. the conference also decided to establish a global adaptation framework. these are all strongly urged by developing countries . ah. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests from brussels. kiara martinelli, climate action network, europe director from nairobi up the i to a former minister of planning in somalia and a former senior un official and from keel in the u. k. sharon george senior lecturer in environmental sustainability and green technology at kil university. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. are the let me start with you today. just how significant is it that this loss and damage fund was set up during comp 27 and and, and do you think that it actually will help developing nations cope with climate change going forward? there is no question that this set up. oh, this one is a tremendous progress when you look at the totality of the efforts that have been made over the last many years in relation to the climate prices there. but we need to remember that this is only a fund that there is no money in it just for now, and probably not for another year or so while the committee works on the details, that's number one. but more importantly, i think for the fun when and if it goes. ready on an operational, it is supposed to help developing countries to try to mitigate the climate crises flooding droughts, a famine in this part of the wall and the horn of africa. it's supposed to do that in theory, but a lot of the details are, are not there yet. so we'll have to wait until the committee actually finishes its work in about a year time. obviously just follow up because the fact of the matter is, as you said, there is no money in this fund yet. essentially, this is a bucket that was set up and the bucket is still empty and there have been other times it in the last 10 years or so when funds were set up. i believe there was an adaptation fund where a poor nation's developing countries were supposed to get a $100000000000.00 a year. and i don't believe they're getting anywhere near that. if anything at all . i mean, is there any sense of when these funds might start being available to the countries? well, it's very difficult to imagine that this fun will receive the amount of money that it was supposed to be receiving. considering the fact that a lot of these countries, the big emitter, for example, the united states and other big countries are democracies and their power of the 1st rescue with congress. for example, india. we know that by the administration will face a divided congress for the next 2 years. so with the republicans in charge of the lower house of the congress, you know, i can foresee them approving money for the united nations fund, and they've already criticized the same can be set up our other western democracy. so i think, you know, it's always expected out of the. ready international conferences to lay out very lofty goals and ultimately fall significantly shorter on there. and i think unfortunately it sounds like, you know, the mobile. i don't want to preclude the possibility of actually it being worked out quite ridiculous me share and i saw you reacting to some of what i was saying there. so i'm going to let you jump in but, but i also want to ask you from your perspective, was enough accomplished at cop 27? no. any or no, not. not in terms of what was seen with climate change. now. you know, you can lie, can they say, you know, a floating top fluid in the floor, and all this is doing is it's kind of mocking all the damage that's been caused. and it's not really put any north investment into what's going to happen. and what we're seeing is this, this kind of roving situation, climate change becoming worse, i think, will become what us with the emissions the, where the bath and not enough have been that in terms of planning for the future. we just kind of mitigating against what has happened and just kind of invest, you know, keeping in touch the, to keep carrying on doing what we're doing. and it's always a good business as usual case. and i think a lot more agency needs to be drawn right now, especially to affect those, those countries that are, you know, they're kind of lose all ability to live where they live, you know, it's, it's, it is a religion say a more on game right now. but for people that are affected right now, if i could get your thoughts on, on cop 27 from your perspective, what were some of its successes and what were some of its failures? yes, i think one of the major success and i think we do need to celebrate is the agreement of all countries to finally with 4 countries request to create a found lesson damage. and i think this is important to recognise, even if, as we have been seeing, that there is a lot of work to be done in terms of to, to make it open. but i think it's important politically that all countries agreed to in africa to deliver on nothing demo finance. and i think it needs to be to be, to be life. of course, we are worried about the fall off work and movies, keep our precious pressure to make sure that these find the get all the pressed to do that proceed, pursued the teeth that are needed to, to make that is the position as of the copper next year i think it's important to see that of course, to be do as a see society from over the world to be due to these or so as any success over the nation that sees society. i've been doing it on the last and there are financial facility. try to do it here. and overall a, do i give you so that it is comp 27 again, a favor on did evening and it ended evening enough concrete steps forward to try this. declare mcbride, is that the that we are facing today? and if he could, this is again, mr. paternity, we do need to do some needs. natalie to confirm commitments, but actually to deny it. and now you're in terms of the target and in terms of financial engagement and commitment to across the dual globe. sharon, i saw you nodding along, i want to give you an opportunity to, to add to the point she was making if you'd like. yeah. can you not just, you know, it's not just about that but kind of stuff on jane that kind of emergency response funding is about putting vestment futures and making the equitable a make not fat and an accessible. and that's going to be a challenge to do it, to speed that we need to do. and in the me, in the meantime, you got by diversity in 44 will lose same species with climate change has a bigger impact than just the can all make. and at the moment, we will still invested around the world and fossil fuels and the copyright. we've talked about billions of pounds and age to how combat climate change that we're also spending money on combats he cut his will to work in the other way with fossils, heels and that we need to really take their serious at carpet. * cause of real leadership role to take a school edge and in this respect nothing we, we just not quite there and we need that that focus and that one place gladly if we're going to make it, we're going to take it seriously. abdi, you know, we were speaking earlier about the fact that there is still a lot of decisions to be made even when it comes to setting up this loss and, and damage funding. and it seems as though the negotiators, those that were present cup 27, have essentially kicked the can down the road and said the things will most likely be decided next year before cop 28. at least some of the more difficult decisions i want to ask you, what are some of the more difficult decisions i'm asking that because it clearly, it was very difficult even getting to this point. so what, beyond this point is even more difficult that it couldn't be agreed to this year. well, a number of things. so 1st of all, in the amount of money that needs to go into the fun needs to be determined and where would it come from? i mean, we know that the $20.00 largest economies around the world are responsible for about roughly 80 percent of greenhouse gas emissions. and so, and we also know this is a very unique situation. china, which is currently probably the largest emitter of greenhouse gas emissions, is in fact considered and classified by the u. n. as a developing countries, not as a developed country. and so when you are classified like that, but you are a large emitter of greenhouse gases, you know, how much are you going to contribute? those are some of the details that need to be worked out. but also, you know, lawson damage also entails inherently liability. and some of the big countries, like the u. s. are avoiding to be, i'm in a situation where they're trapped in some sort of a legal liability, perpetual legal liabilities for greenhouse gas emissions. so it is going to be quite complex before we arrive at a, at a sensible fun and even then, i think it'll be a much less than what people have in mind today. karen, sharon was talking about what's really needed right now from her perspective is for the world to speak with one voice when it comes to action that that really needs to be taken to combat climate change going forward. that being said, you know, cop 27 there was a lot riding on that. and yet still you see that there were a lot of divisions among the participating nations. so have cop gatherings actually served much of a purpose over the years. i mean, they have they been able to accomplish much since they started holding them decades ago? no, i mean i think a death not in our, for the 8th the answer. but if we also needed to, i like that and point out that we don't have an opportunity. so what we have today is the state, the only space where all countries poor and each counties began big polluters and the was most impacted by cannot change, can be it on one table and take decisions a to move forward. so i think not enough is my chart times where, but the same time, this is a state we should protect and we should the strength and actually to make sure that climate auction is faster entity. and as willing to the urgency, we see, i think that the way we needed to do that is a to exactly what we were saying was said charmaine shake to make sure that this phase, the leader to the seasons across the 3 main p. last of the pace agreement, the other taishan clinic mitigation l as in them as and not putting one or the other p learning competition or towards one another. alyssa, i think the most important thing to make these the cops in the future is still relevant and impactful is it protect the death stays from the facetious interests and meaning like ensuring that in the space remain a democratic remain in a lee led by governments and by delegates, and also ensuring that see the society as a voice in terms of making sure that the experience and expertise, but also the struggles of communities on the ground are part of the conversation in order to influence the decision set that we wanted to see. and coming out of these cops and sharon edge, how long have um, have poorer countries and developing countries been been seeking this kind of help from, from richer countries and, and how big a, when, you know, we can talk more about whether or not this money is actually put aside, but just the fact that i got to this point how, how big a win is that uh for the poor countries are and, and for the developing countries that they even got this well, and one sense that's been a kind of admission that this needs to happen in agreement. that's a massive achievement. but looking back, you know, in, in direct ways climate change has been starting to have an impact quite slowly and, and, but also not just climate change. actually. the impact of energy, exploitation and energy. the energy market has, you know, it has had an impact internationally on some nations more than others and we've called complex issues around things like, you know, deforestation losses the amazon and massively complicated issues around i would need for energy coupled with economic complexity complex t around a countries here needs to develop income, so it's a complex picture and, and in that mix as well, you've got people with different social possessions within that, those economies. and so that, that, that's a very tricky question to answer. but i think what, what is needed? and i think one of the things that hasn't really been addressed in any of the cops is that any like the accountability that we need that way as a consequence, if, if, if nothing happens, then nothing happens. and there isn't a consequence the economy that, that's kind of kicking the can down the road. so i think what would be nice to say is, is more accountability and consequence for those nations that don't pull that collect his way to, to address this problem. i think that is, you know, that's something i think needs to be embedded in future cops to, to really capture specific talking. and sharon let, let me just ask when it comes to the kind of pressure that activists and that in joe's were able to put on the participants in, in cop 27 was that different this year than it has been in previous years? i think so. i think that's a real sense of urgency and, and, and you know, in terms of public voice and the voice of those, those organizations that are doing the campaigning. i think that's a real frustration that can be sort of the lack of urgency and the lack of action. i don't think that's i'm find nothing that voice is going to become louder. and i think that's something we're quick. if people are not really listen to and they protest and they campaign, and i think that's something that we're going to law off until the things start to really change cara reacting quite a bit to what sharon was saying. so i wanted to see if you'd like to jump in. yeah, i totally agree. i think a device of cd society not to be the was quite strong or dis copper for even with the little presence that be added at the venue. but i think what is important i like is that is advice that is getting stronger and stronger across the globe. so it's not all in one country or denied or so and visiting would be extremely important as a voice to be supported, especially in that, on up to the next copper to make sure that was the, the, the, and the season and the loss in them as font is a quickly taken a, as in, with all the steps that are needed to make a dental professional. and i also think that that is, is it something we need to think through more as the c v societal transition or now to link up all this pressure to the pressure that insane everyone is doing any, any their own country. because i think in accountability as a, as sharon said, this is the key for this for the improvement of this process. but also monitoring and monitoring the seasons and monitoring without the steps that have been and been taken off. the pledges that has been done a let me allow me to mention as an example, that many european countries in put forward some financial pledges for loss or damage. in the 1st week of the call, i think that the debt had to for sure to line it on did the decision on the, on the lawson, them as fund. but now we need to make sure that these finance these, the financial commitment is the additional and is that well? well look, tanelle through the right procedures and the light right schemes to make that operational. abdi one of the more unexpected things that happened while kept when someone was going on was the announcement by the u. s. and china that they were going to resume cooperating when it came to try to talk about our climate change and, and other issues. um, from your perspective, did that give more momentum to what was going on a cop 27? did that help some of these processes along there is no question about that. us and china are the 2 largest economy. and by definition, they are also the 2 largest emitters of greenhouse gas emissions to this day. and so their cooperation is critical for the success of op, $27.00, and this whole sort of environmental process. but mom and i think we need to remind ourselves that the overarching. ready objective of the international dialogue around environment is to reach the 1.5 degrees celsius pre industrial level of you know, in terms of they've got emissions. now the, the commitment to that objective remains incredibly weak. even after decades of, of negotiations. a lot of countries are willing to do it, but my colleagues that the monitoring of aspect of it remains incredibly big and more importantly, a lot of western countries are seeing the resurgence of by far right. politicians are actually also climate deny or is, i mean, they don't even believe that we are sprinting into climate crises that would be in the us or western europe and so on and so forth. and i suspect that unfortunately, that new reality will have an adverse impact on the negotiations in the coming years, especially in many more, right. politicians come to power in western democracies share and i was just talking there about the goal of keeping global warming to 1.5 degrees celsius above pre industrial levels based on, on what you saw coming out of of comp 27. is that something that is still achievable and also, you know, there had been a recommitment that the globe needs to cut greenhouse gas emissions nearly and a half by 2030. do you think that that is something that is still achievable? thank it's really worrying, but we're still seeing investment in fossil fuels of what these massively impact because she's target did matt that we have to call to buy. i didn't think given current progress and climate change, it's all ready. now, i don't think it's treatable if we just carry on business, you know, not even with the targets that we have with them. well miss, you're going to miss that target massively. so i think we need investment and technology to not just carpet, but carpet negative. you know, we need to be, we proactive about that and that's a huge step forward. and all over the book was already been promised. so, you know, just just an acceleration in terms of the targets that we have is not enough. so, you know, i think this brings together the power reports i pcc where the, the scientific community come together and present the evidence to on dependence those decisions. but i think would be all now thinking in terms of just economic terms. i think if we think about climate change, just economically and, and keep pushing the come down the rate on economic decisions. and as you say with these politicians who are coming on goal to and not on board with the agency seriousness we need to and the, you know, it's very easy to know these impacts when we don't think much flooding or we don't see the extremes in the way that the nation. ready it's easy to deny, i think, where reason puts all going to have to have things like more depth goals and i would culture and costs and imports and exports and, and also human migration is going to see wise. and so, you know, it's ways we're in very serious situation. all right, well we have run out of times we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guests. caramark, donnelly, and sharon george. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at ha, inside store manager jim the whole team here in doha bye for now. ah . move from take off until the final whistle. will bring you extensive coverage through out the world. action from all of the games. the joy hand the hall, say experts and match analysis for my studios, info and excitement from around the city and across the globe. join us the cast of 2022. 0 now and is there a indonesia your investment destination, the world's 10 largest economy is busy transforming, ready to beat your business, partner with a robust talent pool, politically and economically stable and strong policies. being the power house, indonesia is confirmed by the g 20 presidency. 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