>> he was a great friend, the suezfriend of canal. that time spirit of that we would -- they would move on to panama and join the specific to the atlantic as the in any otherd done part of the world. futures the wave of the and that they would simply repeat their success in this very different part of the world forgetting that panama was a vastly differenter the rare, typography,rent climate, everything. they were mistaken about knowing territory, as it were. >> today frk you go to panama, see a lot of him, at thes a bust authority. until a couple of years ago, was a steakhouse in downtown. saw would he think if he the video that we just showed of the canal today? hist would probably break heart because he was an extraordinary man. the loomingf figures beyond anyone else of his time. he was something of a rain maker. an engineer, he was a believer in a great the capacity of human beings to the untried and difficult. by his ownt up .hetoric he had tremendous backing invested inne who the suez canal had done very well. the selling of the stock of the panama canal company was a big venture, it was exciting. stock speculation of today with the wonders of technology. problem, the french problem when they came to canal is they were ahead of science and technology. science and medicine had not yellowd the problem of fever and m malaria. was a death trap. the equipment to be used had not sufficiently. it was an undertaking that was of privatereach capitalization. treasury of a great nation behind it to guarantee success. further more and i think probably as important as else, ten gi the engineers brave and admirable men had they learnedwhere to do things by the book. there were certain prescribed ways to solve problems. of improvization, which is so ingrained in american life particularly in 19th century technology. you tryhat works and things until you find something that works. when that work, you go with it. they didn't know how to do that. they never resolved the problem what you do with all of that water in panama. how do you get around this torrential river that can rise 30, 40 feet in less than 48 hours. rainfall is heavy on the as almost anyone in the world. rainfall not measured in inches feet. they sort of thought we will find a way. technology, engineering will and they never figured it out. extraordinary irony that it in 1789, aa meeting stood up at ar meeting of society of geography the west bank in paris. he said if you proceed with this of digging a sea level at panama, you will fail. you will fail because your workers will die by the disease and you can't dig a sea-level canal terrain.hat it won't work. the way to do it is lift the of locksby a series and let the ships pass through in ahrough a trench but real way a bridge of water. proposed thes, he exact kind of canal that he was describing a few minutes ago. a canal that is quite miraculous.and mirror rac they left him out of the room. panama toench came to dig a sea this-level canal and everything he predicted happened. the company went bankrupt. a very sad and sorry business. antistem nism in france. of those involved in the wasany were jewish and it seen by some in france as a hadsh plot because they been claiming progress in panama happened.ot, in fact, so the company failed. financial biggest collapse until then. it rocked the government of france. the government fell. this brave effort sat turning jungle, so to speak with equipment lying everywhere. to it?s going to happen >> with that i'm going to get invite our viewers to talk to you. the east andn central time zone and if you live in the mountain or pacific time zone there is a separate number. we have set aside a speive phone spentor those who have time and lived in the panama zone. time, did thein americans first start taking interest in that? >> we were very interested all along. railroad across the panama at the time of the rush that setd the path. it showed this was the place to build the canal. the french was right. can nickin nicaragua was a .place to do itu our interest took hold at the alternative of the century. surveys andinds of tried to determine the best route. our determination was in part inspired by military necessity. we wanted a way to move our navy and forth between the two oceans. had the sameourse, isle -- idealistic aspirations. >> do you think it would have happened without teddy roosevelt? would havethink it been as popular and patriotic country.e for the theodore roosevelt put his stamp put his the canal as he stamp all over everything. thefirst president to leaf country while in office and had himself photographed down there controls of the 95-ton steam shovel. suit.e a white linen it is really the perfect picture era, confident, power, and constructive. he thought, theodore roosevelt the panama a that was going to be the greatest of hisment administration. he was proud of it. it as well as by he should have been and the country should have been. and heroic under taking. beenng of this had ever taken before. stevens? john >> john stevens was the brilliant american engineer builder. he plotted the path of the great who came in,road in the early stages of the several things of immense importance. it would be feudal to built a canal and he saw nothing the diseasee until problem was solved. cleaned up toas an extent where they could fever and getow rid of most of malaria. a major event in the history of the world because it tropicalf that countries could be relieved of diseases. >> we will talk about how he did that later. we'll take phone calls for you. >> thank you for taking my call. having just returned from panama last month and i'm soon to be to a panamanian national. whatld like to ask him on he would like to reflect on, if the canal would would have happened to that part itcentral america and how would have altered history? >> it was evidently that we would build a canal it was just the question of when. in mind howkeep much economics were involved. through panama would save 8,000 miles on a voyage york to san francisco. 8,000 miles is a long way. it has all kinds of impacts on andrance rates, labor costs the rest. while the cost of the canal was beyond anything anyone had imagined at that point. what itinor com fired would -- compared to what it mean in the nation of the world. before the first world war, it been built soon after. we were the only country build itto economically and in terms of our ofacity to mount that kind an effort of labor and ma shinry -- machinery and the rest. biggest concrete structure in the world. doug from kerrville, texas. >> how do you do? worked 32 years for the panama canal and born and raised the zone in 1936 and born there and went all through school. i assisted you when you were there, however, i was behind the scenes. i worked for the marine director and many of the scenes within forth.ks and so some of the items that you had investigate, i was behind the scenes. i do wish you well. you.ll, thank it is great to hear from you. thank you for what you did during those years. >> you wrote the book how many years ago? was published in 1977. is itre can people -- still available? print, i'm glad to say. it has been reissued in a new paperback edition. >> any idea how many books it sold? >> i don't know. had a documentary about it, is that what the caller was talking about? >> we had a series on pbs a number of years ago. has becomee interested in the panama canal interest.lose that i think the veteran, if you of panama, the people who worked for the canal or those it never, building ever forget it. they love to talk about it and back.o go panama is a wonderful country. it is beautiful. are terrific. it is fascinating. them zone still call yans? >> i think that is dying out, i would imagine. zone is no longer part of the american presence there. >> you're next. mr. mccullough. i had a question i wanted to ask on the canal. theyou familiar with treaties that transferred the canal over at the end of the month? >> yes, i certainly am. they the reservation that have, do you know where that is the treaties to transfer this? that gives us the right to use intervention if we had to do it to defend the security canal? >> yes, that is part of the treaties. an important part of the treaties, which was passed by in 1978.e >> one of the gentleman who wrote that treaty is going to be us later this evening and i'm sure he can answer for of your questions there. who were the people who built canal? where were they from? >> this is something that i widerdeserves understanding. people from every part of the the panama canal point of another if you consider the french and american times. most of the labor came from the indies. most of the people, men and jamaica.e from in the years where the american engineers are in charge of the most of the workers came from barbados. english-speaking people. they came by the thousands. now, there were countless other people, too, in addition to the force from the west indies and both in the labor force and or themanagement force.ring road work, the front lines the infantry, if you will, were black men from barbados and jamaica. forget how many people died buildin building th. died? many >> no one will be able to calculate exactly but a minimum 25,000 people died building canal.ama about 20,000 died during the french period. about it,ady talked there was no understanding of malaria.ver and ma most people died from yellow malaria. the ma people died there and primarily from disease again but largely from pneumonia. andly from accidents and the great excavation that went on lasted for seven years. years, it was never silent. the work went on night and day. men working in that night and day. of thend, the roar forth of, the back and trains and steam shuttles, the working wasle phenomenal. it cost $10 million. likedoes not sound much today but that was a fortune then. sevenllion to take that miles. mile or$1 million a more. to see- it's staggering those old photographs. when you go through a that filledof course, it is with water. it.re only seeing part of but the phenomenal canal arement of the the locks. as he was saying are and imaginative and fascinating nap great canal takes a ship, lifts about 80 feet above sea the lake,ds it across sets the ship back down using nothing but the force of gravity, using nothing but the water, this water that the could.figure out what to do with picture the genius of the a that is that it took the problem of the canal, torrential water flow and turned it into the solution. lesson thatilliant very often in life and the the solutionf is of the problem. wouldct that this water continually renew itself that it can expel millions of gallons of water for every ship that goes through. it uses no pumps, no power at all. nature, it is working with nature not against, which is the greatest form of engineering. the scale is really breathtaking. these ships are as big as -- onost as tall if they stood end almost as tall as the empire state building. if you took one and stood it on end and there are 12 of these lock, put it on the new york skyline, it would be one of the york.ilding in new the monumental undertaking of concrete, dealing geologyery unstable that gave rise to horrendous into the coming down channel. conceivable every problem imagined. one of the most difficult snakes, disease, endless water, 2,000 miles from supply, this is the first time that the united states marshaled a great overseas effort. 20th at the start of the century. important and interesting, too. for everyson died 10 feet of the panama canal. caller. >> i'm calling from richmond, virginia. >> you're on the air. ahead. >> caller, you're on the air, go ahead. >> mr. mccullough. >> yes? they question is what is reason for -- what did it take pass a treaty for the canal? >> well, there were many reasons why people were opposed to the treaties. that this effort had been financed by the united states, american money, american leadership, american engineering, american equipment, political leadership had built it. it belonged to us. had paid more for the panama canal than we paid for alaska, andsiana purchase, california, all that we purchased in the enlargement of country geographically cost less than what we paid for the canal. so therefore, why should we give , particularly as it has military importance. carter think the administration realized when aboutot into this fight the treaties that the firestorm they were going to face. opposition was terrific, as you remember. thiser, please understand wasn't some notion dreamed up in carter. of president the realization of new treaty, new arrangement in panama was more in tune with the 20th goes back to the eisenhower administration. it was bound to happen. the mosted af mirror rabble and encouraging the treatiesnce was passed in the 1970's, both agreements and it has been a smooth and good partnership. next.th carolina, you're mr. mccullough, my name is frank. i would like to make a few about the canal. >> caller, i'm going to have to ask you to turn down your television set. we're getting a lot of feedback. ahead. >> in represent to the operation the gate, i don't believe you have made it clear as how 25-horsepower motor can use those massive gates. those gates are 7 feet thick and course, two of them are more form110 feet because they a shallow v. to lock them when them.is water behind those gates and you can stand there watch them open the gates you won't realize this unless you're familiar with rooms. the gates are floated up and resunk after they get in place. all the weight is moved by floating expect a few hundred pounds that is why a 25 motor moves them open and close. sill, theyet on the are reflooded and sunk so they water.ld >> mr. mccullough? >> that is absolutely right. miracles,e of the creation.cgenius of this great the gates are hollow like an airplane wing. float. water is supporting the gates the as taking most of weight of the gate just as water is lifting the ships up all feet through the force of gravity. as was stated earlier, i don't think it can be stressed too much. insulation,same those are the same gates, same mechanism within the walls of the locks that were built in 1912, 1913 to be ready when the canal opened in 1914. was sur peshly built. less than wasting estimated and on time and despite the fact that they encountered one problem after had reckonednobody on. >> there was an earlier treaty we haven't talked about. what is that? treaty was signed in secretary of the state. are two 19th century characters who are doing of thes at the start 20th century. a frenchmen who worked on thecanal at the time of french effort and he became an promoter and detail maker who signed a treaty a representative for panama. us treaty is one that gave our legal right to build the in this 10-mile wide panama zone, in which the united states, according to the act as if was to sovereign. not exactly sovereign but as if sovereign. >> what year is that? >> 1904. done very was quickly. in fact, so quickly that the onresentatives who were their way to washington arrived too late and the deal was all signed and delivered. this was very much a slap in the them.o it remained a bone in the throat panamanians ever since and understandably. our political engineering was nowhere near the way the and it was aas shame. we were in a hurry. time. a different we had a president in office who was eager to get things done. he later said in a show off fashion, i took the canal. took panama and let congress debate it afterwards where i ahead and built it. arrogant.uite way, it caused long-range regrettable. are is important to understand insults were perceived howeople in panama and people were long lasting hurt was from that. happened one year after panama got their independence columbia? >> this happened right away. columbiaendence from was a different story because it was to what extent was this a resolution and what engineered by a lawyer from new york and from roosevelt administration. was part of columbia. most valuableits province because the prediction was the canal would be built there eventually and this was to jewel. it was to be the goose that lay egg.olden this sliver was broken off from was becauseause it we wanted a better agreement yans than wemain thought we could get with the columbians. york.atoga springs, new hello. >> hello, mr. mccullough. i enjoy your scholarship. fromed in the canal zone 1972. i was really impressed with the canalchnologies that the zone demonstrated. one was concrete and the other was electricity, which the companyelectric pioneered in that area. >> yes. was also a member of the united states army and observed colonyism that existed in the zone. >> where were you based, caller? lived in fort clayton. >> that was just turned over last week. >> right. it was easy to notice that all people that lived in the canal zone were u.s. they were employed government. they were employed be the canal services. i was there during vietnam and of militaryit a bit activity at the time. everyone there was required to i.d. cards, anyone who wanted to buy food was in the needed to showism d. cards. i mention this specifically of people whole meet in a store minorere purchasing aings, deor door rant and magazine, i recall. they did not have u.s. i.d. obviouslythey were, u.s. citizens and were members of the peace corp. they were not allowed to buy these items in a panama canal zone store because they did not have the i.d. cards. thanks.r, we were showing our viewers what fort clayton looks like in october. if you go to the forts it looks like a ghost town. imagine. the caller just brought up important points. cation of electroany the forts, all of the valves and inside the locks. the locks are like watches inside. of thingsll kinds going on there. it is all run by electricity. conceived and built before factories in america were electrified. this is pioneering work and it is still there. should.exactly as it didn't keep our life in the zone in harmony very well with the with theworld and panama. to life in panamanian could not buy anything in a store in the canal zone. more to choose from, the prices were lower. was accused of long doing or breaking the law his ownanal zone in really, he would be tried in american court in the english language. he could notat understand. it was just made for trouble. the 1904as because of treaty? >> this is because of the way of life that set in there. the canal zone expect employees of the canal. there to dodown research on my book, i have a number of children. if weght it would be fine could stay there for several the children could go to an american school without much of a disruption of a their life back home. no, i couldn't live there employed by the panama canal. it was a government town. ironically, it was socialism in model form. was marvelous, wonderful. interestingte, work, important work, work to be schools, good services, fire department, postal system, handsome environment all around you, buildings and palm trees. beautiful. >> here's a map where you can see better where we're talking here. you have panama here and panama here and right down the middle the canal zone and in the middle of, that you see the actual panama canal. have two ports. one is balboa port, which is on the pacific side, is that correct? mr. mccullough. then you have the other area, which is the other way in which atlantic side. >> yes. >> we had ports on both side. >> yes. had bases on both sides that have reverted back to the panamanians. next is pittsburgh, pennsylvania. hello. >> how were black workers treated in the building of the canal and were they treated the the others? >> in i can add to that, are families there today that are descend events of the workers? >> yes, there are. stillorkers are the jamaicanf workers who are there and are fluent in english and read english. all that goes on there is very important. you have to know what you're doing and you have to communicate exactly what is happening. there would be a moments along these enormous ships going back and forth. it is particular because the so huge in relation to locks.e of the the black work theirs came to panama were not treated equally white workers. they did not live in quarters near ase anywhere adequate. or qua less.ere paid you know, their work was infinitely more dangerous. some lived in squaller. this doesn't justify differential but they were getting paid more than they ever had in their lives. problem ofever a trying to get people who wanted to work there. i know this because i have interviewed many of the people who worked in the cut. alive 20ple who were they were pride accomplished. there were pride in themselves apart of this a part great work. you're next. >> hello, my ulysses s. grant is i'm a retiredand colonel. to you the pass on tremendous delight that my and i enjoyed from your book in the dark and in the jungle i would read passages from your book to them. liked wasthey most evidence of leadership and these wonderful lieutenant who led 20-odd marines. believe they were looking for lowest point and trying to find a path they had heard of. leadership got them through. i wanted to pass it to you the we had fromelight many of the passages from your book that were like that. can't tell you how much that means to me. thank you, sir, very much. >> california, you're next. >> thank you c-span for having and mr. mccullough for being there for us tonight. know -- let you know that i've seen the pbs many times. i watch every time it is on. you did mention in the documentary that the canal, at one time, was proposed to go nicaragua. i would like to know if you that.elaborate more on it is hard to find information on that. i understand there was a stamp commemorated on that. >> actually, mr. mccullough we have that stamp that we can show our viewers. nicaragua canal was very popular with the people in the would haveause it been a shorter road from new orleans to nicaragua than to panama.leans if one keeps in mind of the geography of central america. central america swings way over to the east. people think panama canal is below mexico. of new orleans could go through nicaragua canal in a less distancend than going through panama. also, it was believed as if or lessre little disease in nicaragua than panama. nicaragua wereof somehow more receptive to there.g the canal it would have been a longer and more complicated canal. route.not the best panama was the best route. reason that it had less mee mosquitoe bites disease and the carries it to a mailman, if you will. more people around who has the disease, the more the disease spreads. the fight in the senate was intens because there were a great many people for political whatns and for reasons for they thought was good sense that the were determined that canal would be built in panama. frenchmen who we saw the treaty signed put on a great campaign that man panama was the only place to go. frenchtrying to sell the works and trying to bail out the old french company for the equipment, for which we paid $40 million. you who gorgisk was? >> well, if i can finish, his were volcanoes in nicaragua. is noposition said there in nicaragua statute.ng he made sure that every senator thatved one of the stamps there were volcanos in nicaragua. >> and there was the stamp. about mr. gorgis. >> he worked on the eradication war.llow fever after the he contracted yellow fever. if you contract it and survive you are immune for the rest of your life. had yellow fever so they could go to panama. he knew all they had to do was rid of the yellow fever mosquito was to get rid of standing water. a creature quite different mosquitoes that it freshnly lay its eggs in water held in artificial containers. of thed to get rid standing water. water standing in open systems, in tin cans,g in anng fresh water held artificial container. malaria byreduce reducing standing water of any low-lyingamps or marsh land wherever the ma lair mow zee yo, which is a different creature, would also breed. major breakthrough in medical history. illness soisease, often affects history, far more historians or most of us appreciate. yan who was in that area has probably been to the gorgis hospital, which is the name of the hospital that takes of people or i should say took care of people. now. closed campaignavy mosquitoe was costly and a big campaign. sent down by roosevelt and he would figure out what this anti-mosquitoe project was costing. in.alled dr. gorgis he said i computed this mow zee costing $10 for every mosquito. to burden awful thing the american taxpayers, the with.an government the doctor says yes, but what if the $10 mosquitoes got you and what a loss that would be to the government so the campaign continued. then the aftermath, fumigation gang was sent out to clean?d >> they cleaned up everything. sewage and just normal practices that we take for granted today, to beard to be brought on the whole community there. mind, we build whole tons, hospitals, schools, house all the people that came from there elsewhere in the world. ed hundreds of times or 1,000 times. let in, water was to be when the canal was to be filled, and they struck the sets. they took it away. sailing across the lake in a cruise ship, let's say. sailing over where once down below under the water there were communities with dances on that.ay night and all of >> miami, florida, you are next. go ahead. evening. i'm in active duty in the marine corps and i spent months in in fortnd i was living clayton. i read the book while i was and i enjoyed it very much. it is in his book a the marines after thethe captain declaring of the independence of panama to help keep the peace after the u.s. army pulled out summer.a this they sent a small group of marines down and i was one of of basebe a final round closes. it was a full circle kind of thing, marines were the first ones to arrive and the last ones leave. >> richfield, you are next. commend you on your interview. instructive. >> i have a couple of questions. the canal and my dr. carlosng is that jay finley was the person to the yellow fever that caused so much trouble at the canal. a monument there that they have for him. also, i would like you to that panamaossible has to have an army to protect the canal in order for us to them.t over to panama, invasion of panama no longer has an army to it.nd >> on the first point, dr. finley was the one who did work on yellow fever in havana. a statue inves panama or anywhere else in the world.l the protection of the pan ofaal, military protection the panama canal as stipulated in the treaties is the responsibility of the united states. that wasthe clause brought up by an earlier caller. important part of the treaty. bethe panama canal were to in jeopardy from an outside states't is the united right and responsibility to step in. >> your book ends where? in 1914 with the opening of the canal. betweene meantime, 1914, we're going to take our to 1964. up how did the treaty, that we have the earlier about, treaty set up this relationship between the united states and led to the unrest that begin or started to culminate in the 1960's? it was aaid before, bone in the throat. it was more than a burr under saddle. imagine a strip offer the o tery 10-miles wide cutting through the center of your country. every time you want to go from of your country to the other, you have to go through man's land of american sovereignty, quasi sovereignty. are a panamanian you resent that. i remember he described as a little boy being on a bus and how the bus was stopped and policemen came onboard the bus and it scared him. they were -- somehow his mother was threatened and he that. like nobody would like that. and our flag flying and all of the rest. keep in mind, there was much we that was very good for panama. brought uptself, was our program is fresh water. it is the finest source of fresh in latinsuppose america. marvelous an endless water.of fresh anrican personnel were addition to the economy of panama. panama shared in the revenue as well as the prestige of the canal. there was the feeling that some day this has got to be different. riot was touched off in the raising of4 over the a flag at a high school in the canal zone. it got rough. it got out of hand. riots gotst seen how out of hand in seattle. wake-up call for people in washington, long overdue that done.ing had to be >> that is where we're going to move next. towill say good night mr. mccullough. winner of the pull alexander prize on his book on truman. you are working on what now, sir? >> a book about john and abigail adams. >> when are we going to see that? so.aybe in another year or >> coming up next, we're going panamanian who was a negotiator in 1977 and went on president of panama. >> do you remember the first time that someone approached you asked you or started talking to you about being involved in a that would be the panama canal treaty? >> yes, i remember. was told me that the of the united states there would be a new time for negotiations and two negotiators have been appointed by president carter. told me their names and we prepared the first meeting with march of 1977 in the washington.anama in >> what were your emotions at that time? andell, the house was empty very cold. that a man of some age, he never took his coat. he remained the whole time with his coat on because it was a cold morning. it was a little tough because we after 30 yearsa of negations. as you can see in the verygraphs here, we have difficult incidents with the 1964 and the in days after. president lyndon johnson, we assume the with panama with some scopes. after 13 years those scopes had not reached any success. a little scared that have any new treaty. we approached the negotiators of the united states that they believe really want to do justice for in that moment, not in that time. >> take a step back from that. the negotiators was saul, correct? >> yes. >> he wrote about this period. he said forhe said, arrangement by and under the earlier treaty, treaty was a source of do youo the panamanians, agree? the earlier treaty. >> yes, it was a source of shame. i think also it was a shame for the united states for the remember thatse i treatydiscussions of the in the senate of the united states of the congress. rejected the treaty and they say it was a treaty too good for the united states. probably that the panamanians treaty and het was right. also that mr. taft of was also the president the united states supreme court and then president of the united states. that was very treaty.d about that treaty so, maybe that favorable to the united states the kind of treaty it would be rejected by the united states. that was really a treaty was a shame for both countries. treatiesen signed the 1903, two hours before the panamanian delegation arrived in washington. something like a panamanians to know that this man signed a treaty kind of advice. >> you were born when? >> me? i was born in 1940. >> do you remember growing up your reaction was to the fact that the americans had this strip through the middle of panama that they could do anything they wanted to? >> when i have explained the felt to thet i europeans they don't believe. that in the car to usee panamanians have two plates. want.ate the panamanians they car to travel through pa ma zone, that means in order to cross the canal to go to the country, they have twose two licenses, driver's license. one panamanian and one the american. very well, i had a died and he worked for a canal company. he was very white man with green eyes and brown hair. i.d. for whitehe people. he went with a lot of people who becauseith whites only he was panamanian. that luckily is over. >> so those were the emotions you brought with you when you walked into the negotiations 1970's? >> there are many more. lawyer. you go alone in zone, you were charged with an american judge an appeal that appeal goes to louisiana. because in the united so it is has codes more or less similar to the panamanian laws. have to go to the united appeal.o obtain an >> so when you walked into the negotiating room, those first was the one thing that you knew you wanted to walk with? >> well, let me tell you very frankly something. in thatot believe moment that we were we were presented with a lot of advantages. atreally did not think december 30 1, 1999, the canal .ould still not be panamanian we began to understand after some meetings, after some , of course we want that, but we were not sure we could obtain. when the negotiators told us they really wanted to do justice to panama, in that moment, when he was ahat phrase, member. >> did the americans make any mistakes in the negotiations? sometimes, we experienced difficulty in the capital. it was very difficult to understand in the capital. >> when you watched the debate, when you watched that senate ratification debate -- or you probably did not watch it. you probably just heard about it. what was that like? >> we were watching the process, vote, so wey one were very concerned. but after the ratification, we went to a tv channel in panama and announced to the nation that it had been ratified by the united states. from the balcony, it was the operation was not necessary. i don't remember the name, but a second strategy. to toss someoposal kind of disposal into the area of the canal, and he would use some soldiers to do that, but it was really secret. only that night the secret was revealed. >> with this treaty have the general? ut >> that would be very difficult. man to probe what was the previous bilateral relationship with the united states and panama. he visited by himself. germany, the united kingdom. he visited trying to obtain support. of 77 and the group , andresident of venezuela these 4 nations -- venezuela, colombia, costa rica, panama -- .hey made a lot of support >> when we talk about the panama canal treaty, we think about panama, but as you were saying, at the time, this was really a much broader issue than that for the leaders of the country and some of the south americans. >> yes, and you know why? we all wanted to consider that the canal was not a panamanian thing. we will rule the canal, but panamanians think the canal leads to the world, and we thought that we had justice on so let's say the great the support from south america and the rest of the world. >> would you have done it sooner if you could have? >> before december? 1977 ---- 1977 and the 1978 for the ratification, but years before there was turnover. it was a long time. let me tell you more. the negotiators that, so we had some luck, but i think this time has been very helpful for panamanians. these years have been a lifetime for us. >> i'm looking at the young man. how old were you then? >> i was 37 years old at the time. >> would you have ended up being president of this country for four years if you had not been involved in those negotiations? >> maybe that helped a little but besides being i had been in charge of a lot of the students, the .-shirts, the posters i was a very well-known person in the government. >> the treaties themselves -- why did they divide it? whose idea was that? >> i would say there were different generations. that we hadmember and then inthing 1967, the work rejected by the government. most of the matters of legal terms was a matter of political issues. we wanted the school to become panamanian. we considered that a canal should be panamanian. jeopardize the relationship with the united states of america. i hope that the -- that would be so panama andss, the united states, that the transit will remain well and the canal will remain open forever. >> economically, did panama get what it needed to get to move step? is next there will not be any annual money coming from the united , but that will depend totally on us. the economic team makes a at the for a large sum, conference, for all the stages .hey made was a lotic issue with the united states because we want to give the american negotiators and president carter the idea that we have much more important issues to pursue and to plan for. when americans construct the the united states is a country, a nation very , theyned about money built up the canal as a business . ,e have a great responsibility and we have to invest a lot of money in the development of the canal. >> the part of the treaty in which america, the united states, can come back into this country if the canal is ever in jeopardy -- do you regret negotiating that? >> no, when we signed the the public example said that we told our country that we something. .hat is a canal that suffered from any other country, we hope we would never have that. the united states has the right and the responsibility to defend the canal because we have no army. even if we should have an army, that army would not be capable to protect the canal. >> final question -- could the treaty have happened without jimmy carter? >> of course not. of course not. his jimmy carter would not become president of the united states, we still would be named -- making negotiations and talking with america. this man was something like a prisoner, and when he arrived, himself, he promised panama that he would do justice, and he accomplished at. >> thank you. if you have just joined us, we are talking about the panama canal. in our next segment, we are going to look at the panama canal treaty. let me ask you first the same at then i asked mr. royo end -- could these treaties have happened without resident jimmy carter? >> i got started in 1971 with president nixon, and the negotiation had started even earlier under president johnson, and i continued on through president ford's administration and president carter's administration. in one sense, they had bipartisan support in this country. the other hand, it was president carter who put the effort in and got it done. my guess is that treaties would have happened at some point. it was a historical inevitability, but president carter deserves a lot of credit for taking the bull by the horns and bringing the thing to closure. >> what were the circumstances in 1971 that got you to be involved in writing the treaty? >> i was just out of law school, went to work for the state department. i did not get any choices. i got latin american affairs, and my boss had broken his knee playing tennis that we can, so they said someone had to go cover the negotiations. -- i wass later, scheduled that, but as a result, i got involved at that time and ended up becoming the veteran on the u.s. side. they change negotiator several times, but i hung around for the duration. quit what was the key part, the key time period of the negotiation? >> it is hard to put an exact fix on that because when you look back at the treaties now, portions of them were negotiated over the entire 13, 14-year royo was just. talking about. the crucial period was the last six months or so during the carter administration when the real push was brought on to bring it to closure. an awful lot of the work was done both internally in the u.s. government and then vis-à-vis the panamanians over the space -- i would say probably, most seriously, from 1973 on. in the latter part of 1973, we resumed negotiations. we had a round i was initially involved in in 1971. fernando offer it up, later the chief administrator of the canal, was the youngest guy on their site at the time, so the two of us got the job of writing text. starting in 1973, there was a big push put on the nixon administration. he negotiated a set of principles to govern the negotiation, which secretary kissinger then went to panama , and that really gave a new impetus to the negotiation. then by 1977, we had a fairly clear idea of what it was going to take on both sides to make a treaty, but it was not clear that the willpower was there to bite the bullet and make the deal, and that is, i think, where president carter came in. the two of them made one heck of a team. ofassador really put a lot poison to moving both sides to say stop debating this, make a decision, come up with formulas, and we were able to bring that to fruition, but it was really a cumulative effort. >> where we are negotiating? >> during the rounds that bart is to fruition, we spent a lot of time in the mid-1970's and a little island across the coast of panama and found that convenient at the time because it got negotiators away from their bureaucracies long enough -- when you were in capital, you tended to always be getting phone calls about some other matter, and people were not focused on trying to think through how we could do this. the last fewing months, most of the negotiation was actually done in the state department building, and that point,ause at that moving the bureaucracy was probably more important. we kind of knew where we wanted to go. it was how to get us from here to there, so being close and being engaged was important. the last round we did was in panama. >> who would be in the room during the negotiations? >> on both sides, we had our chief negotiators during our early parts. when i first started, it was ambassador robert anderson. ambassador bunker, as i mentioned, came on in 1973. occasionally, they would meet by themselves with a panamanian negotiators, but most of the time, they had their deputies -- we had the panama country director. we had general dalton, the secretary of defense, whose representative and deputy negotiator, myself -- >> would you sit around the table and chat, or was it much more -- >> the panamanians had an equivalent -- you know, personalities change from time to time, although there was a fair amount of stability. we would sit on both sides of the table like you can envision in the negotiation, but you had a lot of conversations off on the side, too. that was one of the advantages of going out to the island. you would finish out the formal session, and then you could go sit down somewhere and have a that, "iffee and say know your guidance is so-and-so, but what do you think about this?" we were able to make a lot of progress that way if we just up to the official positions, as you can see from the panamanian commentary. it was such an emotional issue on their side that they had developed this sort of theology over the years about how everything had to be right and just. very hard to negotiate with somebody who is operating under that kind of guidance. we were able to develop -- and ambassador bunker was very strong on this -- he said we had to get these guys talking reality here. and we would try to get them off to the side and say, "look, let's put aside our formal guidance for a moment. what if we were able to do this? what would you be able to do?" and explore it without having to go back and get politicians on both sides to agree to something before you could tell whether it was going to be productive or not. it is not something unique to this negotiation. that is the way you negotiate, but it was particularly important for cicely because there was so much emotion involved in the issue. >> was the language a difficulty? not especially. a lot of americans spoke spanish, and a lot of panamanians spoke english, and we had good interpreters. when you're doing negotiations, always bring interpreters so you are speaking your own language, but usually a mixture of both languages. >> people talk about the panama canal treaty. is it one treaty? >> there is one of the panama canal treaty, and a second one concerning the permanent neutrality and operation of the panama canal. >> both signed at the same time? >> i will give you a little background as to why that came about. you heard from david mccullough some of the background with the -- theeaty, which was basic terms of that treaty -- you have to understand it to understand what we did later on it was negotiated by frenchman. it granted the united states virtually total jurisdiction, powers, and authority. defined geographically jurisdiction. anything that went on there was under our jurisdiction. we could marry and divorce panamanians, give them traffic tickets, all the things you were hearing about. and it gave it to us in perpetuity as long as we paid $250,000 a year. further, created sort of the two main panamanian cities. they were closer to the canal than five miles, so the result was they got surrounded by a canal zone, and their growth was constrained by that. at was the situation we were dealing with. when we said we were going to have a new treaty relationship that would have a fixed duration, the model we used -- and this was the panama canal treaty, the one that will terminate at the end of the year -- the model we used was the post-world war ii base rights agreements we had done around the world where you have right to use territory. you have rights to do certain things, but those rights are defined functionally, not geographically. you do not just take a piece of territory and say that you have authority over everything there. you say we need this territory to do canal operations and in that tour entire -- in that territory, do all the things proper to that. that makes it more comp located because you have to think ahead what these things are going to be. easements for your powerline and what have you. you also have associated with that the equivalent of the canal personnel of the status of forces agreement. this is something that says americans who are working for the u.s. government in that country will be exempt from customs duties, exempt from taxes. if they get into criminal problems, we have a certain degree with criminal jurisdiction over them and the like. at the same time, panamanians are not going to be subject to u.s. jurisdiction on those matters. theyreaty basically says cancel the old treaty to get rid of perpetuity, get rid of total u.s. jurisdiction in the canal, and then turns around and says panama grants the united states the functional rights necessary to run the panama canal for the of the years to the end century and also grants the united states the functional rights to defend it to maintain military bases there. and this implement agreements for each of those articles that have all the details about customs duties and the like. it also -- the panama canal treaty made provisions for this of operation of the canal to panama, and this is one of the great contributions. in the treaty, it provided that there would be a board -- even though it was a u.s. agency running the canal for the entire --isdiction of the treaty the canal commission would be made up of five americans and for panamanians, so you would start having panamanians who were getting experience at that level, board of directors level in the operations of the canal. it also made provision that the chief executive officer of the canal commission for the first 10 years would be an american with a panamanian as deputy, and then it switched, and a panamanian national became the director. and the deputy became american. though those guys were working for an american they were agency, panamanians, and they were gaining that experience, and that was replicated down the line. i think that is one reason we were in very good shape, and i would second what roger said about the people in the canal their dedication. they always were dedicated to that operation of the canal, and they put the same dedication into making a good, smooth, seamless transition to panamanian authority. that is the scheme of the panama canal treaty. >> that me ask you one more question about the panama canal treaty. that treaty in another itself then said how much money we would give to panama directly every year? >> it provided -- i should be this case is we in not the taxpayer, but the users of the canal via the toll system, under the original 1903 treaty, they got $250,000 a year . under the treaty of 1977, they a six-payment -- it's a little bit comp located. six payments of $10 million a year. they got royalties based on the amount of traffic going through the canal and got certain amount ton, which i think is amounted generally in the area of around $70 million a year, and another provision says if the canal made a profit, that the first $10 million of that would go to panama. anyway, there were also payments taken out of that to the u.s. treasury to pay us back interest on the original u.s. investment in the canal, and i had forgotten, but it was in the tens of millions as well. there has been money flowing out from the canal to both governments on the treaty. not money going from the u.s. taxpayer into the panamanian system. >> that is one treaty. >> yes, and that is also the canal operation. the u.s. did, of course, pay for the operation of our military thes, and those come out of defense department budget, but the canal operation, the salaries we pay americans and payments remain to panama and payments we make to ourselves -- all of that came out of the toll s. it provided this modern base rights type of agreement functionally defined rather than geographically defined. you could not do in a treaty that had a fixed duration is to deal with what is going to happen after the united states gives up the authority over the canal. if the treaty terminates, what provisions do they have? so we did a second treaty. the treaty concerning the permanent neutrality and operation of the canal. this treaty, interestingly, was roughly modeled on a similar treaty from the 19th century that governs the use of the suez canal in egypt. done between constantinople and many of the european powers at the time. both of them, what they have in common is that canals will be open to ships of all nation on a nondiscriminatory basis. the operator is obligated to make it available to everybody , toust and reasonable tolls not impose regulations that are not necessary to the efficient operation of the canal, to basis those on inequality regardless of the nationality of the ship coming through. that was one important part. in the original treaty, that could be covered because that treaty was in perpetuity. here we wanted to have a treaty that would cover those same points, which was binding on us as long as we were operating the canal, and it will be binding on panama that they are obligated to the same standards of nondiscrimination during the time that they operate the canal now and in the future. that treaty also had a couple of important points that were mentioned earlier that became very important during the debate here. one was the idea of expeditious transit for u.s. ships. that is built into the treaty originally. during the senate debate, that got clarified or made more precise, but the treaty provides that government ships, warships of the united aids and panama, given their key contributions to the panama canal, would be able to transit the canal up ahead of the line during wartime. >> in perpetuity? >> in perpetuity, yes. the idea was that it was a bit of an exception to the idea of neutrality and nondiscrimination that we do discriminate a bit in our own favor in terms of priority of transit, although everybody else gets to go through as well. the onend provision was that was just mentioned in the interview with president arroyo -- president royo, which was dicey to draft an even more dicey to debate later on, but the idea was that a provision that would allow each country -- panama and the united states -- would obligate each of us to take whatever action was necessary to keep the canal open and functioning on a nondiscriminatory basis in accord with the neutrality treaty -- sort of the enforcement clause of the neutrality treaty. the reason it was dicey was for panama, there was always the fear that this would turn into some u.s. -- the u.s. would interpret this as intervening in their internal affairs and change their government in a way that we might like. on the u.s. side, we were very keen to have it spelled out as clearly as possible that we did have this right in order to protect the operation of the canal, not to play in panamanian internal affairs, but trying to find the right balance between the student concepts -- the concept is fairly clear, but how you write it in such a way that everybody is comfortable became a difficult thing. we found some language in the treaty. it then later was interpreted publicly by both president carter and the general, and the language that they said was by senatorporated thereand senator byrd -- were -- the amendments that were made airing the -- during the debate i would say made more explicit whate was already there. it did not change the understanding, but it made them -- >> one more question before we go to the signing ceremony. if there were another man well noriega and he were to take over panama and something were to in terms of the actual running of the country of panama, we could go back into panama? >> yes, although i think what both sides really envision as being the more likely scenario -- you are taking an extreme one -- the reason we went after noriega was not because of the canal, but the cause -- because he, for one thing, shot some of our people. but the more likely thing is if somebody else was bothering the , a terrorist from another country, another power, insurgency or something like that -- that panama could call upon us. the idea is that the parties have an absolute common interest would act in cooperation, that they would be occasions in which we might find ourselves acting unilaterally are exceptionally rare, but we wanted to make sure that they were covered as well, and they are. that will continue on forever. >> september 7, 1970 seven, the signing ceremony -- do you remember? >> i remember it well. working on the treaty for about 10 minutes before the signing ceremony. there's always last issues in translation and all of that stuff. hadpan-american union caught us. it was quite dramatic. all of the heads of state or virtually all of the heads of state from the hemisphere were brought together to witness the signing. there had not been a conclave like that in quite a long time. 1978, when president carter gives this fireside chat about the panama canal. >> good evening. 75 years ago, our nation signed a treaty which gave us rights to build a canal across panama. it was an historic step of joining the atlantic and pacific oceans. the result of the agreement has been a great benefit to ourselves. other nations throughout the world who navigate the high seas. of the canal was one of the greatest engineering feats of history. although massive in concept and construction, it is relatively simple in design and has been reliable and efficient in operation. are deeply proud of this great achievement. the canal has also been a source of pride and benefit to the people of panama but a cause of some continuing discontent because we have controlled a , andle-wide strip of land because they consider the original terms of the agreement to be unfair. the people of panama have been dissatisfied with the treaty. it was drafted here and not signed by any panamanians. those who signed the original treaty said it was vastly advantageous to the united states and not so advantageous to panama. in 1954, after consulting with former presidents truman and eisenhower, president johnson committed our nation to work toward a new treaty with the republic of panama, and last summer, after 14 years of ofotiations, after kid democratic presidents, we reached and signed an agreement that is fair and beneficial to both countries. the united states senate will soon be debating whether these treaties should be ratified. negotiations, we were determined that our national security interests would be protected, that the andl would always be open useful and available to ships of all nations, and in time of need or emergency, our warships would have the right to go to the head of the line for priority passage through the canal and that our military forces would have the permanent right to defend the canal if it should ever be in danger. the new treaty meets all of these requirements. let me outline the terms of the agreement. there are two treaties -- one covering the century and the other guaranteeing the safety, openness, and neutrality of the canal. for the rest of this century, we will operate the canal through a nine-person board of directors. five members will be from the united states and four will be from panama. present canal the zone, we have the right to select whatever lands and borders our military and civilian forces need to maintain, operate, and defend the canal. about 75% of those who now maintain and operate the canal are panamanians. years, as we 22 manage the canal together, this percentage will increase. the americans who work on the canal will continue to have their rights of promotion and retirement. .e will share with panama shallthe past, the canal continue to be neutral. this is not a partisan interest. they are endorsed by businesses and professionals, leaders, especially those who recognize the benefits of goodwill and trade with other nations in this hemisphere, and they were endorsed overwhelmingly by the senate foreign relations they may move closer to ratification by approving this treaty. i have recommended changes which we do not feel are needed. the changes are supported enthusiastically by every member of the joint chiefs of staff. general george brown, the chairman, general bernard rogers, chief of staff in the army, admiral james holloway, chief of naval operations, david jones, chief of staff of the air force, and general louis wilson, commandant of the marine corps -- responsible men whose professions in the defense of the preservation of our security . the treaties also have been overwhelmingly supported america, but predictably, they are opposed would likehose who to see disorder in panama and a disruption of our political, economic, and military ties with our friends. the treaties also have been opposed by many americans. much of that opposition is based on misinformation. termsd that when the full of the agreement are explained, most people are content that the national interest of our country will be served best by ratifying the treaty. tonight, i want you to hear the s.ct i want to answer the most serious questions and tell you why i feel the panama canal treaty should be approved. the most important reason to theyy the treaty is that are in the highest national interests of the united states and will strengthen our position .n the world our security interests will be stronger. opportunities will be improved. we will demonstrate that as a large and powerful country, we fair andto be honorable with a proud and smaller sovereign nation. we will honor our commitment that the panama canal will be open and available for use by their ships at a reasonable and competitive cost both now and in the future. let me answer specifically the most prominent questions about the treaties -- will our nation have a right to protect and against anyanal armed attack or met against the canal or ships going through it? the answer is yes. it is contained in both treaties and also in the statement of understanding between the leaders of our two nations. the first treaty says, "the united its of america and the republic of panama commit themselves to protect and defend the panama canal. each party shall act in accordance with its constitutional processes to meet the dangers resulting from an armed attack or other actions threatened the security of the ."nama canal the new treaty says the united states of america and the republic of panama agree to maintain the regime of neutrality. in orderbe maintained that it shall remain permanently useful. to explain exactly what that means, the statement of understanding says under the neutrality treaty, panama and the united states have the responsibility to assure that will remainanal open and secure to ships of all of direct interpretation of this principle is that each shall in accordance with their respective constitutional processes defend the canal to neutralityreat and consequently will have the right to act against any aggressor's or threats directed against the canal or against vessels through the canal. it is obvious that we can say whatever militants we can take whatever military action is necessary to make sure that the canal always remains open and safe. giveurse, this does not the united states any rights to intervene in the internal affairs of panama, nor will al -- our military action ever be directed against the territorial integrity or political independence of panama. the literary experts agree that even with the panamanian armed forces joined with us as brothers against a common enemy, it will take a large number of anyican troops to ward off attacks. i as president would not hesitate to deploy whatever armed forces are necessary to defend the canal, and i have no in a sustained combat that we will be successful. way there is a much better than sending our sons and grandsons to fight in the jungles of panama. we would serve our interests better by implementing the new treaty, an action that would help to avoid any attack on the panama canal. what we want is a permanent weht to use the canal, and can defend this right through these treaties, through real cooperation with panama. the citizens of panama and their government have already shown their support of a new and it will be signed by many other nations, thereby showing their stance. the new treaties will naturally from a passive and sometimes deeply resentful bystander into an active and interested partner whose vital shared.s will be this agreement leads to cooperation between our country and panama. -- anotherntry question is -- why should we give away the panama canal zone? as many people say, we bought it and paid for it. repeat a very important point -- we do not own the panama canal zone. we have only had the right to use it. the canal zone cannot be compared with the united states territory. we bought alaska from the russians, and no one has ever doubted that we own it. we bought the louisiana territories. that is an integral part of the united states. from the beginning, we have made an annual payment to panama to use their land. owndo not pay rent on your land. the panama canal zone has always .een panamanian territory the u.s. supreme court and president have repeatedly acknowledged that sovereignty of .anama over the canal zone we have never needed to own the anymore thanzone we need to own a strip of land all the way through canada to alaska. the new treaty would give us what we need -- not ownership of the canal but the right to use it and to protect it. the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff has said the strategic value of the canal lies in its use. can ourquestion -- warships and time of need or emergency get through the canal immediately instead of waiting in line? so that clearly by guaranteeing that our ships will always have expeditious transit through the canal to there could be no possible disagreement about what these words mean, the joint statement says that expeditious assure is intended to the transit of such vessels through the canals as quickly as possible without any impediment with expedited treatment, and in case of need or emergency, to go to the head of the line of vessels in order to transit the canal rapidly. will be treaties affect our standing in latin america? will they create a so-called power vacuum? which our enemies might move in to fill. they will do just the opposite -- the treaties will increase our nation's influence. will remove a major source of anti-american feeling. the new agreement has already provided proof to the people of this hemisphere that a new era, friendship, and cooperation is beginning, and that what they last remnant of alleged american colonialism is being removed. individuallyi met with the leaders of 18 countries in this hemisphere. between the united states and latin america, there is already a new sense of equality, a sense of mutual respect that exists as part of the panama canal treaties. this opens up goodwill, trade, jobs, exports, and political cooperation. if the treaty should be rejected, this will all be lost, and disappointment and despair among our good neighbors and friends will be severe. in the peaceful struggle against alien ideologies, like communism, these treaties are a step in the right direction. nothing could strengthen our competitors and adversaries more than for us to reject this agreement. what if a new canal should be needed in the future? this is been brought up over and over throughout the century, from before the time the canal was built up to the last few years. every study has reached the same conclusion, that the best way's panama. the canal is in the treaties say that if we want to build such a canal, we will build it in panama, and if a canal is to be built in panama, that we, the united states, would have the right to participate in the project. this is a clear benefit to us. it ensures that 10 or 20 years from now, no unfriendly but wealthy power will be able to purchase the rights to the canal, to bypass the existing canal. perhaps, maybe that other nation in control of the only usable waterway across the is this -- the business -- the isthmus. under the new treaty, any payment to panama would come from tolls from ships who use the canal. the present and future stability and the capability of the panamanian government? do the people of panama themselves support this agreement? panama and her people have been our historical allies and friends. the present leader of panama has been in office for more than nine years, and he has a stable government which has explored the development of free enterprise in panama. they will elect a president and vice president by majority vote. in the past, regimes have years, nout for 75 panamanian government has ever wanted to close the canal. wants the canal open and moving, perhaps even more than we do. canal's continued operation is important to us, but it is much more than that to panama. to panama, it's crucial. panama would be about as likely to close the canal as we are to close the interstate highway system in the united states. panama give the new treaty their support. the major threat to the canal comes not from any government of panama, but from misguided persons who may try to fan the .lames of dissatisfaction there's a final question about the deeper meaning of the treaties themselves to us and to panama. recently, i discussed the treaties with david mccullough, author of "the path between the seas: the great history of the panama canal." he believes the canal is something we built and have looked after these many years, it is ours. this is very different from just ownership. canal, talk of the for,er we are old, young, or against the treaties, we are very deep and elemental feelings about our own strength. still, we americans want a more humane and stable world. we believe in goodwill and strength.s well as this agreement with panama is something we want the cause we .now it is right this is not merely the surest way to protect and save the canal. this is about a people who are still confident, still creative. this new partnership can become a source of national pride and strength in much the same way that building the canal was 75 years ago. acts a spirit in which we that is very important. theodore roosevelt, who was president when the canal was itself -- sawry history itself. wouldanges it has brought not be lost on him. he knew that change was inevitable and necessary. but if theodore roosevelt was to endorse the treaties, and i'm quite sure he would -- he could see the decision as one by which we are demonstrating the kind of great power we wish to be. afford -- avoid many issues, as roosevelt would say. all we can determine for ourselves is whether we shall meet them well or ill. the panama canal is a vast, heroic expression of that age-old desire to bridge the divide and bring people closer together. this is what the treaties are all about. in this historic decision, he and applaud us for being a great and generous people, with the national strength to do what is right for us and what is fair for others. thank you very much. this week, while congress is in recess, watch american history tv in prime time. each weeknight at 8:00 eastern, american history tv will feature a variety of topics on the early american republic, jewish history, world war ii, and sports history. let us know what you think about the programs you are watching. us. us or e-mail join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. >> while congress is on break this month, c-span's prime time features a wide range of political views and topics. this week, a debate on america's greatness, veterans health care, and the center for disease control and prevention. we visit the atlantic best club clube -- the atlanta press . let us know what you think about the programs you are watching. >> join the conversation. next, an event commemorating the 150th anniversary of the battle of the crater. the battle of the crater took place july 30, 1864 as part of the siege of petersburg. the ceremony includes in the unveiling of the stand by the u.s. postal service and remarks by historian james blankenship. this event from petersburg is one hour 15 minutes. >> good morning ladies and gentlemen. morning for this being with us here at petersburg national battlefield on the 150th anniversary of battle of the crater. my name is chris price. you who were with us this morning
either her or the few people she would give authority to hire for her. why does it feel like the train has already left the station? what does this mean for the other side? if the republicans are also looking for jobs in 2016 and need to win to get those jobs, if they see her on the move already, does that mean they're more likely to push a candidate with a good chance of boxing her out in the center? in other words, new jersey governor chris christie. does this help give him a leg up? boxing out, is that what the earlier expected coming of hillary clinton doing to obama? he's still in the inaugural term of his second term. is he getting brushed aside from the rush for jobs and connections to a president ho has yet to take office who might never take office? who is to blame for all the hilary action right now? a foo feisty crowd pushing her? a media, okay, i'm part of it, looking hungry for the next big story or is it the president in the oval office? is the ronan hillary's getting all this attention, the reason the former secretary of state is getting the big buildup because the man in the white house and the fire and excitement for action with three years to get things done is so dimly lit right now? "the washington post" skras liz za is an msnbc political analyst and of the editor for the new yorker magazine. i want to start with chris. great column in the post, "the washington post" about sort of the oil and water aspect of what's his name, rand paul who's name i'll learn to say more quickly and chris christie. it's like that mean "the candidate." we ain't got nothing in common. let's talk about the dems. >> sure. >> the democratic party used to be the party where all the fight was. there was a fight between left and right -- civil rights, anti-civil rights, the old seggies hanging in there. now it seems to be a party of general agreement. but i noticed something over the weekend. the slow, what do you call it, the thing where you change color to meet the background, the. >> chameleon. >> the chameleon party seems to be changing color to a hillary background rather than an obama background. i know you are reporting on the phone all day must be hearing thissing >> well, you know, what you hit on in the introis right i think which is i will say i am struck by how aggressive and how public she will herself is being with this series of speeches. she's given one, going to give two more on sort of big topics, voting rights, foreign policy. talk about national security. there's no way to interpret those kind of speeches except that laying the groundwork for 2016. i'll add one other quick thing to it which is the ready for hillary super pac, the extent to which real clinton hands, i'm not talking about sort of lower level operatives, herald ickes, huge fund-raisers, huge factor in the clinton world, he is affiliated with it. some of the obama folks, jeremy bird and mitch stewart very involved in the obama field organization are affiliated with it. i guarantee you if hillary clinton or someone in her world said to harold ickes don't get involved with this right now, it's going to spur this thing out of control, harold would not be involved. so there's both -- >> you're so right. people are so talking, the old joke is are they measuring the drapes. let's be be practical. they're will are talking who should be chief of staff. i was pushing ed rendell. they're already doing the deck chairs. this is 2013. it's the first year of obama's second term and they're already talking about hillary and who is going to do what. are we ahead of schedule on purpose or is this sheer accident? have they blown it by getting too fast or is it smart to keep biden out of the race. >> i don't think it's an accident. she came from a highly visible role as secretary of state. i'm not sure she knows how not to be visible at this stage in her life after all of the places she's been and the way she's been doing it. what's really interesting in terms of obama's visibility is that even as her secretary of stateship seems more and more having been about her and about her stature and less and less about crystallizing an obama agenda and so now his foreign policy feels really a little vacant, especially in the face of the crisis in egypt and the nsa. >> i think john kerry is doing a hell of a job bringing together the middle east because hillary hadn't done that. he's done what she hadn't yet done. that's the fact. >> it's true. look at her luck in a way. she left the secretary of stateship before she had to deal with questions like edward snowden's passport or the crisis in egypt. now it really can be about her and about her candidacy. >> the "new york times," amy, now has a reporter, a desk editor whose entire job at "the new york times" cillizza back to you, your competition is in the "new york times," there's an editor, this woman has been assigned the job of hillary editor. that's how close it's gotten. >> look, chris, people always say to me, because i write a lot about this stuff unapologetically so, people always say it's too early. if you think that no one who is thinking about running for president makes their decision till after the 2014 election, you're just wrong. rand paul, ted cruz, marco rubio, scott walker, you know, that's -- martin o'malley. joe biden. there's a story in "the wall street journal" today joe biden says he might run regardless. this is a huge process. i compare it to an iceberg. the little part your average voter sees above the water, there's a giants formation below the water that's all of the stuff we're talking about now. so look, you cover it if there's news. she is acting in political ways on a political landscape. i think we all need to write about that. >> amy, what's the first year you can run for class president? is it high school, freshman year? these guys and women show their hand that day, 13 years old. hillary clinton was the star of her graduating class at wellesley. no doubt about it from the beginning before she met this guy named bill from arkansas she had her eye on the prize. this is something that comes with the territory. usually the guys but here we have a woman. i think the woman's movement behind hillary is bigger than her. i think the reason she will run and maybe win is the power of women my age who want her to be president. it's an overwhelming power base that has little or nothing to do with the tactics of it her race. your thoughts? >> i think there's definitely that. you also look at the other reasons she's been in the news and her campaign in the news. one of them in new york is anthony weiner and the fact that somebody on her stof humstaff, a abedin, he gets asked what her job might be on the campaign. there are slightly random factors that made it sort of a complicated question for women as well as because it brings up the whole question of the clinton marriage and the choices that she's made. so there's that, too. i'm not sure that it's for women of every age it's overwhelmingly unambiguously exciting to have hillary be the standard bearer for that. >> but i'll talk about women my age i've had to deal with like close to home. i got to tell you that hillary has done so much in her career that overwhens everything else. today on "morning joe," chuck todd said there have been unintended consequences of the big hillary clinton push and becoming so visible. we have also joining him is former white house press secretary robert gibbs who made a similar point on meet the president yesterday. >> there's lame duck status happens to any second term president in two phases. one is in washington and the ongoing back and forth with congress at some point, you sort of run out of political capital. the president is running up against the clock on that over the next year. but then the second phase, of course, is are you a leader of your own party? at some point, the outgoing president is no longer, you know, sort of is a leader at large but is no longer the rallying point. and if you're barack obama, you and the want that to start as late as you possibly can. nobody's saying this is what hillary clinton's trying to do but this is an unintended consequence and make it harder for barack obama to be able to marshall resources. >> i completely agree with chuck. i as a strategist am fairly floored she has decided to enter the public frail so quickly. >> wow. what do you make of that, amy? >> well, it's interesting because you know, we were at a stage where we were going from bush to clinton to bush and then suddenly we're back at clinton. it does have the effect of making the obama presidency swheem republicans in one way always hoped it was, an interlude. and it sort of makes it seem like a historical detour. now we're xwk back to the story we already know. and there are advantages for her. but there is the sense, chuck is totally right of feeling a little tired and a little early. >> i get the feeling the president's become reactive. i mean, i was once warned don't be reactive, amy. this idea of spending your life reactively, he gets a bad headline in the "new york times" and all of a sudden he has a press conference the next day. a reaction to editorial writing. that's dangerous when a president begins to be not a case of himself doing what he wants to do why he wants to be there but simply reacting to events. that doesn't look strong. it looks to me mechanical. >> whatever you would say about the clintons, they're not just reactive. ef that way of disrupting and changing and setting agenda and telling a new story is something that they will have been able to do, and that maybe they're distracting obama from really figuring out his own way of doing now. >> you bet, chris, i know you don't bet, broder, one of our great grandfathers told you not to do this and he was the greatest. why do you think joe biden might, this is the way i'm phrasing it, why would he might take on hillary for the nomination fight? knows he's facing her? >> it's simple. he would like to be the president of the united states. i tell people the best indicator whether someone will run or not is have they run before. he's run twice, '87, '88, and 2008. he is as close to the job as anyone. he sees and believes in his heart of hearts he's the best person to do the job. my guess though chris is that this is -- i think the joe biden he might do it regardless is much more about if hillary doesn't run. know the speculation if she runs he might run, too. i think the trip he's going to make to iowa next month to be at the tom harkin steak fry is about saying martin o'malley, elizabeth warren, all the other people hillary doesn't run, i'm the top dog and i'm in this race if she's not in. i can't see him ultimately running against hilary in what would amount to basically a one v one. i don't think any other serious candidate -- >> the way you described it because they run before is a sign they'll run again it's like where do you find a baseball manager in the major leagues? look for somebody fired in the march leagues. great to to have you on, amy. coming up, stop and frisk. a judge haslemed it dramatically and many have criticized. tonight we'll hear from someone lo says that the policy if done right is saving lives. in fact, it's saving the lives of those in tough neighborhoods. also, a lot of people say the united states should boycott account winter olympic games in russia this winter because of russia's new anti-gay laws. olympic gold medal winner greg louganis joins us tonight to say that's not his suggestion. but next, it's been 50 years since martin luther king's junior "i have a dream" speech and nearly that will long since the passage of the civil rights act in 1964 and now "the butler" a mean based on the man who worked in the white house for eight presidents. i saw it last night. it is quite a movie. cuba gooding pops out so wonderful gli is joining us live. and our new time slot, our new viewing habits. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ! i had a nightmar! the house caught fire and we were out on the streets. 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[ doorbell rings ] ...and let the good life in. bob filner was due to return to city hall today but he didn't show up. some city residents in san diego are taking steps to make sure he goes for good. goes away. yesterday was the first day for recall supporters to collect signatures. they have to collect more than 100,000 in 39 days to move ahead with the recall. anti-filner protests you can see them picketing outside city hall. so far 16 women have come forward to accuse filner of sexual harassment. we'll be right back after this. . online or on the phone, we help you hire right the first time with honest reviews on over 720 local services. i want it done right. i don't want to have to worry about it or have to come back and redo it. with angie's list, i was able to turn my home into the home of my dreams. for over 18 years, we've helped people take care of the things that matter most. join today. welcome back to "hardball." next week, obviously, marks the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. a seminal event in the civil rights movement, one of the most famous speeches in u.s. history, king's i have a cream speech, the second best speech ever given in this country. this weeks starts with a dramatic remind her confident arc of racial relations in this country with lee daniels' "the butler" which debuted at number one in the box office, made $25 million inspifred by the life of an african-american white house butler who served over 34 years spanning some of the most important years of the civil rights movement start offing with the federal troops going into little rock in the '50s. the starring role in the butler" is played by forest whitaker and cuba gooding, he plays his cowork nerts white house. in this clip, he welcome here's cuba gooding's character welcoming the new kid on the block, for rest whitaker to the back rooms of the white house. >> there he is. heard you were coming. what's your name. >> cecil gains. >> i'm carter wilson, the head butler. don't worry about big mo behind you. james holloway is apply second in command. >> why don't you shake the man's hand first before you start asking difficult questions. >> i want to know where the man's coming fromming. >> he give you the tour yet? >> he did. >> i might be able to answer that question if carter will stop running his nasty mouth. >> that was lenny kravitz at the basin. joining me right now is act ser cuba gooding junioren at mean's director lee daniels. you did it. last night i saw it in d.c. you got one customer and when i start selling a mean, i never stop. what i loved about it was the education. are you guys having a conversation without me? >> first off, thank you for all the wonderful things you said about the movie. we love to you death anyway. >> i couldn't hear a thing. >> his earpiece -- i was saying it to him. >> just assume it's fabulous. >> here's the story. what i came away from not just the sweetness of the characters, you popped, cuba. you popped out of that room from that first scene. every once in an while, i'm getting down with forest whitaker's character because he's like job. like an old testament character. how much more crap can he take? how much can he take and he keeps taking it. you have this effervescence and you're enjoying who you are and helping the kid out when he's in trouble secretly from the old man, giving him money but saying give me the money back. he was a great snappy character. i want to go back to leon this question. tell me about your character, what it meant to you to play in the white house as a butler behind the scenes but yet a man on top of things? >> it was great because with this particular story, it's easy to make these butlers seem one dimension. . and without emotion and life. almost like dehumanize them. they had to be in a room and be invisible in the room. so lenny kravitz and i had a real opportunity to be behind the scenes and just let our hair down, so to speak and to get you know, forest's butler to laugh and just experience life. particularly in those scenes in the house, it was just an opportunity. i mean lee was throwing stuff. threw a parrot at us during one scene. doing james brown just to show these were human people so the audience could connect with them. >> lee, i don't know if you thought about this. i'm a movie nut going back to the '20s movies. can you hear me? >> no, he can't hear you. >> maybe you can translate here. here's what i want to know. >> i can hear you. >> black history. this movie reeks reeks of black history like forest gump because the son is playing in selma, he's a black panther, he's everywhere. but the thing that hit me was, black folk in this country, african-americans not people from the caribbean or mixed background like the president, your history in this country is so deep and goes so dpar back to the beginnings of the connieization of this country. you've seen all of us just like you've seen all the presidents. it's a sweeping look at how blacks are the real deep down americans. your history is american history. and that's what grabbed me about that mean last night. >> pes thank you. dy it originally so that because to me, it's a father and son love story. and what i found out that when we were doing the -- when we did the bus scene and the woolworth scene, the sit-ins, i found out it was deeper than just a father and son love story. that it is an american story. it's the civil rights movement and that the civil rights movement is american history. american history is the civil rights movement. we didn't ask to be brought over here and didn't ask for the atrocities to happen to us post us being freed at slaves. it's -- it was a magical learning experience for me. >> cuba, what you could see as an african-american, just as an american you can see the way blacks have to talk to white people. you know, because the white people maybe have power in situations and you have to put up with the bs, if you will of acting a certain way like you're happy when you're not, is your subservient when you don't feel subservient. what did that mean to you as you learn the black experience. of living in two ways, the white way you have to show yourself and the family and friend way you behave? >> i got to be honest with you, chris. when i read this script, i thought that that was such a powerful mechanism to use to show the civil rights era. not an opinionated biased approach but an open approach explain two ideologies, one being representative of the teachings of dr. martin luther king where we should be representative of a people accessible as a people and professional and act eloquently and speak eloquently. and then you had the other teachings of malcolm x who said by any means necessary we will get the respect that we deserve until he later changed his views. but this film steams encompass both of these trains of thoughts to through the relationship that is specific between the cecil gains character and his son. and it was interesting because it wasn't just about race. it was about a parent and a son growing and evolving in their relationship. and one you know, all the misunderstanding and misgivings that we all have with our teenage children and how we have to give them the tools for them to be, you know, independent and strong and fierce and at the same time, not be too overbearing on our own opinions on what they believe. and i think that's what's so beautiful about this movie is the statement is it opens a dialogue so that kids today can learn what we as americans, white and black, fought and struggled for during the sit-s in during the freedom rider bus situations. and how we were we've been enriched by americans because of that experience and you know, like i've been saying in all these interviews, we travel foreign a lot. and the american brand has been beaten up and if they knew where we have come from as a people, they'd understand that president barack obama is a natural progression of things to have a black president of such a wonderful nation. >> lee daniels, congratulations. i hope this mean wins every weekend for the next three months. i got to tell you, i'll never know what it's like to be black. >> you got soul. >> here's thing. >> this movie gives you a hint, a hint of what you think it might be like because it's so rich and because it's conflict package. you got oprah winfrey who was wonderful in this movie doing cheating, drinking too much. she stopped drinking, staying faithful to her husband later on. a mixed person with problems. the young good looking woman who is not a good person. the son is mixed bag. the other son is this loyal american that gets killed in vietnam. there's so much richness to the story. it's about people and about our country. we should be so proud. >> chris, what i've learned is that what i walked away from this film was that it wasn't as an african measure, you think we as black people were the only people that experienced the civil rights movement. but there were so many white people just as many that were killed trying to help america with the civil rights movement. that was my learning experience from it and i hope everybody will walk away with that two. >> two of those three guys burned alive are white. thank you, cuba gooding about. you're going to get an oscar nomination. oh, you are going to get one. >> we're already dealing with one in the movie and that's oprah. >> whitaker is getting the big one. thank you. lee daniels, great work. fabulous historic work. up next, it's america's biggest yard sale and if you ever wanted a souvenir from the war in afghanistan now is your chance. if you want a humvee and an important programming note. starting next month, one week from today, catch "hardball" exclusively at 7:00 eastern. no more 5:00. for those of you watching at 5:00 eastern, next week you need to tune in at 7:00. we're going exclusively at 7:00 eastern. so we're going to having to share time at a different time. anyway, that's "hardball." i'm "hardball." it's the place for politics. i think farmers care more about the land than probably anyone else. we've had this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. ever... she let him plan the vacation. 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[ female announcer ] welcome to the new aarp. we're ready to help you rediscover purpose and passion with programs like life reimagined to inspire you and connect you, resources to help turn your goals and dreams into real possibilities. aarp, an ally for real possibilities. find new tools and ideas for work, money, health and fun at aarp.org/possibilities. back to "hardball." and time for the sideshow". if you've ever dreamed of taking a joy around the neighbored in a five-ton cargo truck, now is your cannes. $50 billion worth of military hardware used over the last 14 years in afghanistan will be coming home over the next 16 months. believe it or not, some of it can be yours at gov liquidati liquidation.com. it's like ebay for the department of defense. the site publicly auctions everything from aircraft parts and cranes to vending machines and household appliances. it's made more than $500 million for the department of defense as of 2011. but the drawdown in afghanistan which is the largest pullout in the american history means they'll have a lot more inventory in the coming months. next up, a san diego radio show sent a not so subtle message to bob filner. surrender it said. he's refused to resign and now facing a recall effort. the sky writing as an homage to the family scene from the wizard of oz. nobody expects a happy outcome in this case. catch this. u.s. senator ted cruz released his birth certificate on sunday to prove he is a natural born usz citizen. but according to the dallas morning news he may also be a canadian citizen, as well. after consulting with canadian legal scholars the paper reported "born in canada to an american mother, ted cruz became an instant u.s. citizen but under under canadian law he also became a citizen of that country the moment he was born there." unless the texas senator formally renounces his citizenship he will remain a citizen of both countries. he could run for parliament up the there. al in many this country he's disputing the legal experts asserting that he's not he says a canadian citizen. that's what he says. they say differently. up next, stop and frisk is controversial but does it work. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. are probably gonna double. but, dad, you've got... 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actually... there's no annual fee and no limits on rewards. and with the fidelity cash management account debit card, you get reimbursed for all atm fees. is that it? oh, this guy, too. turn more of the money you spend into money you invest. it's everyday reinvesting for your personal economy. i'm josh lipton with your cnbc market wrap. the dow dropped 7, the s&p 500 fell 9, and the nasdaq slid 13 on the earnings front, shares of sacks is remain steady despite the retailer reporting deeper than expected losses in the second quarter. google shares rose today on the ninth anniversary of its ipo. the tech giant's stock has skyrocketed 900% since it went public back in 2004. and linkedin announcing its dropping its age limit to 14 starting in september. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." i actually thought that bill thompson said it right. bill said he didn't like stop and frisk but he had a son he wanted to make sure the kid didn't get killed. the only way is to get guns off the street. this is not just an academic exercise. this is people getting killed and sadly, unfortunately, we all see it again and again and again. it's the same group of people, young minority males and that just devastating that society. we've got to do something about it. >> welcome 0 back to "hardball." that was new york player michael bloomberg speaking earlier today making reference to bill thompson, an african-american democrat running for mayor right now taking a moderate position on the city's stop and frisk law. a couple candidates are trying to find the middle. his remarks came today at a press conference where he announced a massive sting operation. the shakedown comes as he continues to defend the city's controversial implementation of its stop and frisk program which the mayor argues that's bloomberg has made the city safer by taking guns like theerks guns they picked up in stop stop and frisk. a federal judge ruled the tactics were unconstitutionally targeting blacks and minorities in the courts right now. bloomberg was livid when the ruling came out last week. he's filing an appeal and continues to plead his case. in today's "washington post," he spells out in a big editorial plainly stop and frisk is not racial profile. unlike many cities where wealthy areas get special treatment, the nypd targets its manpower to the highest crime levels. 90% of all those who commit the murders and other violent crimes are black and hispanic. it is shameful so many elected officials have been largely silent on these facts. when it comes to policing, political correctness is deadly. brill brat tin is now an msnbc analyst and eugene robinson from the "washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. unlike other people, i'm going to try to find the way to good security in this country, people who love our cities, mr. commissioner, who love walking the streets of our cities in nighttime and in day and would like to walk to as many neighborhoods as they could at night without fear of death or mugging or something else. i believe police have a responsibility. i want the honest police officer man or woman, white, black, hispanic, latina or latino to do their job. my question is this, police are not scarecrows and don't just walk around in uniforms and nice hats and do their jobs by showing up. they have to take action, pro action to prevent crime. what's an appropriate role for a police officer if he sees people in his sights that he believes are out for trouble. a gang that has just suffered a hit and he thinks that gang is going out for revenge that night. what's the proper role to revent crime? you would want it your officers to be cops, what cops are paid to do which is to go in harm's way. if they see something that rises to the level of a suspicion that a crime has been, is, or may be about to be committed, you want them to do something. you don't want them to do as they did in los angeles in 2001 and 2002 prior to my going there as chief of police, drive by and wave. and with the result a significant increase in crime. you want your cops 0 to be assertive and active. but you also want them to be respectful. you want them to be mindful of the law, not break it to enforce it and you want them to in all neighborhoods of the city be the same, not behave differently in a minority neighborhood than you would in a white neighborhood. >> just to stay on that subject, loo i can we do at airports, and i know gene and i have been in many airport situations where it looks hideously stupid like lords where they expect people in wheelchairs to stand up and walk 30 feet to go through the turnstile. i go why are they doing this to an older woman? they don't want to be prejudiced to people who look middle eastern. on the street, would you stop four or five business guy to see if they're carrying? would you do that? >> you would not want your police officers to do that either absent something that tracts the attention of that have individual to the police officer or the police officer attracted to them. and again, the supreme court has basically laid this out with a clear line that you can't go over. that you have to have a reasonable suspicion. and that's defined in the law and defined in. >> i want gene's reaction to what you've said so far. >> i actually agree with the commissioner that you want police officers to be proactive. i think what the judge said in this case was that this policy, the way the policy is being done in new york, violates equal protection. it's not the same in all the neighborhoods of the city the way the commissioner said it should be. and you know, once you look at the figures, you look what's happened with stop and frisk, there's interesting things that jump out. one thing that jumps out at me, for 2012 it, 86% of those stopped were black and hispanic. in only two% of those cases did they find any weapon at all on the person, 2% of the cases in which they frisked. but of the few whites who got fricked in 4% of those cases they found weapons. that tells me there's something not bright about the way it's being done. >> what do you think is at work here as a columnist and a person who covers social life in this country, wa do you think is the matter of motivation for the police to stop these usually young men, minorities? >> why are they doing it to harass them or what? i can't look into their minds. i think there's some genuine good police work going on. there's some element i think of keeping a neighborhood under control. look, it doesn't -- that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that it's not done in other neighborhoods and that in fact, can the number one offense that gets alleged or charged after stop and frisk is marijuana offenses. so that makes it a victim of crime on wall street but not. >> i'm with you on that. is there any way you can stop and frisk for weapons and leave it at that, mr. commissioner? because it seems to me, we have a general public interest in not having guns on the street. that's why people have problems withstand your ground laws, why people walk around with guns. >> one of the reasons there's been so much resistance to the policies of mayor bloomberg is unfortunately, because of his focus, his well intended focus on the issue of guns. he has creates the impression that the reason that stop and frisk is practiced in new york city is to get guns off the street. that is a one of the results, if you will, but stop and frisk is used for everything. if i stop you for a traffic violation, for drinking beer in an open container, it isn't intended to get guns off the street unless you specifically see a gun. the idea is stop and frisk is the basic tool of american policing. and so much of the resistance to what's going on in new york is around the idea that, well, geez, 600,000 stops but only 700 guns, isn't that really overkill, if you will, to get those guns? so it's we're talking past. each other, unfortunately, on the situation. >> gene? >> yeah, and that's a problem, frankly of the mayor's creation. the mayor keeps saying it's to get the guns off the street. >> it's not. >> so if he keeps setting that as the bar, people are going to say. >> it confused me because i thought it was that too. >> that's what he said. i think you can get around the fourth amendment questions of unreasonable search and seizure. i think the 14th amendment questions of equal protections are more difficult but they're easily solved. would it kill them to stop some white guys. >> i wish we had the technology where a police officer could have a scanner and find out if they're carrying. some day we'll have that. commissioner bratton, thank you sir. it's a decent arguments. we're trying to find the truth here. eugene robinson, as always. this is "hardball," the place for politics. geoff: i'm the kind of guy who doesn't like being sold to. the last thing i want is to feel like someone is giving me a sales pitch, especially when it comes to my investments. you want a broker you can trust. a lot of guys at the other firms seemed more focused on selling than their clients. that's why i stopped working at my old brokerage and became a financial consultant with charles schwab. avo: what kind of financial consultant are you looking for? talk to us today. i want to remind you again, starting next monday, "hardball" will be on exclusively at 7:00 eastern time. remember, if you want to see us and i do want you to join us, 7:00 is your time for us to share. back in a minute with olympic medalist greg louganis on whereby america should boycott the olympics this winter in russia. every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger. a talking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪ high fructose corn syrup from yoplait original and light, we were like, "sure. no problem!" and you were like, "thanks, but what about thick & creamy and whips!" and we were like, "done and done! now it's out of everything yoplait makes." and you were all, "yum!" and we're like, "is it just us, or has this been a really good conversation?" and you were like, "i would talk, but my mouth is full of yogurt." yoplait. it is so good! i've sent a message today to the united states olympic committee spelling out my own position, that unless the soviets withdraw their troops within a month from afghanistan, that the olympic games be moved from moscow to an alternate site or multiple sites or postpone or cancel. >> that was president jimmy carter, of course, on nbc's "meet the press" back in '80 with plans to boycott the summer olympics in moscow unless the soviets withdrew their troops from afghanistan. the soviets refused and carter went through with his promise to boycott. the soviets responded by boycotting the 1984 summer games in l.a. well, the cold war is over but when russia announced its anti-gay law would apply this winter, gay rights and human rights activists turned their focus into protesting the 2014 olympics in russia. the law allows for the fining and detaining of anyone deemed to promote homosexuality to children under the age of 18, whatever that is. but is boycotting the games the solution? president obama has already said he's opposed to a boycott. joining me is four-time olympic gold medalist greg liuganis. greg, it's great to have you on. >> it's great to be on. >> robert kaiser, a great reporter for "the washington post" wrote a column saying we should boycott the olympics over the invasion of afghanistan. walter mondale, the vice president, saw the article, took it to jimmy carter, the president, who i was working for as a speechwriter and carter said, okay, let's do it. i think we've got to be careful about these things but you're an athlete. your life, your career, your greatness comes from being able to compete. should we stop our young people from being able to compete because we don't like an ordinance, i guess it is, in the russian government that we don't like? >> i did compete in the 1976 olympic games in montreal and then i had that opportunity, silver medalist there. 1980, i was one of the team captains of the 1980 olympic team for the dive team. what we wanted to do is go over there, send one person into the opening ceremonies and then all the rest of the athletes stay home in protest of the soviet union's invasion of afghanistan but still have a presence there. and we had a really strong team. and you know what, an athlete, an elite athlete has a shelf life. i was fortunate. i was able to continue competing through '84, through '88. and i was on both sides of two boycotts. so, you know, i was very blessed in that way. but not all athletes have that opportunity. >> so what's the right way for people, gay and straight in this country, to say we don't like your stupid law. i don't even, by the way -- i don't want to be sarcastic about this but i don't know what it means to promote homosexuality. i mean you are or you aren't, it's nature, i guess you can argue about it. but an advertising campaign isn't going to change your orientation it seems to me. >> exactly. i would be walking propaganda myself personally. i'm a gay man. i'm also hiv positive, but i'm also an athlete too. so, you know, i'm totally against a boycott. >> what's the right, smart american way to given our evolutionary values on this. i must say our values have changed, as you know personally. so here we are 20 or 30 years ahead of the russian people. what do we do to help them to catch up? how do we hit them hard or kiss them the right way to get them to change. >> i don't know if we're going to kiss them the right way and i don't know what that's about. >> it's not about anything. >> i think it would be wonderful for our athletes to go over there, gay or straight. and if they're sympathetic to their cause, because there are other countries that are involved here. there's denmark, there's the u.k., there's sweden -- >> how about -- remember the black power salutes at the olympics where the black athletes did compete in the track and field but they did put their fists up with the gloves on. should something like that happen in russia this winter? >> i don't know if it needs to be all that overt either. i mean if all our allies were to dedicate their performance to their gay uncle, son, daughters. >> to make it individual. >> to make it individual because, you know, it personally says a story, that they're in support of their gay family. >> greg, we're out of time but you have the standing to make that proposal. greg louganis, and we'll be right back. whispering ] shhh. it's only a dream. and we have home insurance. but if we made a claim, our rate would go up... 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she's in the driver's seat? well, people are either positioning themselves already for a role in hillary's government or acting to lock in positions they have with either her or the few people she would give authority to hire for her. why does it feel like the train has already left the station? what does this mean for the other side? if the republicans are also looking for jobs in 2016 and need to win to get those jobs, if they see her on the move already, does that mean they're more likely to push a candidate who actually has a good chance of boxing her out for the center? those people in the middle politically? in other words, new jersey governor chris christie. does this help give him a leg up? speaking of boxing out, is that what the earlier than expected coming of hillary is doing to president obama? he's still in the inaugural term of his second term. is he getting brushed aside from the rush for jobs and connections to a president who has yet to take office and might never take office? who is to blame for all the hilary action right now? a foo feisty crowd pushing her? a media, okay, i'm part of it, looking hungry for the next big story or is it the president in the oval office? is the reason hillary's getting all this attention, the reason the former secretary of state is getting the big buildup because the man in the white house and the fire and excitement for action with three years to get things done is so dimly lit right now? "the washington post" chris cillizza is an msnbc political analyst and amy davidson is senior editor for the beautiful, well written, "new yorker" magazine. i want to start with chris. great column in the post, "the washington post" about sort of the oil and water aspect of what's his name, rand paul who's name i'll learn to say more quickly and chris christie. they don't have nothing in common. it's like that movie "the candidate. " we ain't got nothing in common. let's talk about the dems. >> sure. >> the democratic party used to be the party where all the fight was. there was a fight between left and right -- civil rights, anti-civil rights, the old seggies hanging in there. now it seems to be a party of sort of a general agreement. sort of the same party. but i noticed something over the weekend. the slow, what do you call it, the thing where you change color to meet the background, the fitting in thing of the animal. >> chameleon. >> the chameleon party seems to be changing color to a hillary background rather than an obama background. i know you are reporting on the phone all day must be hearing this. >> well, you know, what you hit on in the intro, chris, is right, which is i will say i am struck by how aggressive and how public she herself is being with this series of speeches. she's given one, going to give two more on sort of big topics, voting rights, foreign policy. talk about national security. there's no way to interpret those kind of speeches except that laying the groundwork for 2016. i'll add one other quick thing to it which is the ready for hillary super pac, the extent to which real clinton hands, i'm not talking about sort of lower level operatives, herald ickes, huge fund-raisers, huge factor in the clinton world, he is affiliated with it. some of the obama folks, jeremy bird and mitch stewart very involved in the obama field organization are affiliated with it. i guarantee you if hillary clinton or someone in her world said to harold ickes don't get involved with this right now, it's going to spur this thing out of control, we don't want it to start yet, harold would not be involved yet. so there's both -- >> you're so right. people are so talking, the old joke is are they measuring the drapes. let's be more practical. they're all talking about who should be chief of staff. i was pushing ed rendell. they're already doing the deck chairs. this is 2013. it's the first year of obama's second term and they're already talking about hillary and who is going to do what. are we ahead of schedule on purpose or is this sheer accident? have they blown it by getting out too fast or is it just smart to keep biden out of the race? >> i don't think it's an accident. you have to look at where she's coming from. she came from a highly visible role as secretary of state. i'm not sure she knows how not to be visible at this stage in her life after all of the places she's been and the way she's been doing it. what's really interesting in terms of obama's visibility is that even as her secretary of stateship seems more and more now about having been about her and about her stature and less and less about really crystallizing an obama agenda, and so now his foreign policy fields really a little vacant, especially in the face of the crisis in egypt and the nsa. >> i think john kerry is doing a hell of a job bringing together the middle east because hillary hadn't done that. in all fairness to him, he's done what she hadn't yet done. that's the fact. >> it's true. look at her luck in a way. she left the secretary of stateship before she had to deal with questions like edward snowden's passport or the crisis in egypt. now it really can be about her and about her candidacy. >> the "new york times," amy, now has a reporter, a desk editor whose entire job at "the new york times" cillizza back to you, your competition is in the "new york times," there's an editor, this woman has been assigned the job of hillary editor. that's how close it's gotten. >> look, chris, people always say to me, because i write a lot about this stuff unapologetically so, people always say it's too early. if you think that no one who is thinking about running for president makes their decision till after the 2014 election, you're just wrong. rand paul, ted cruz, marco rubio, scott walker, you know, that's -- martin o'malley. joe biden. there's a story in "the wall street journal" today joe biden says he might run regardless. this is a huge process. i compare it to an iceberg. the little part that people see above the water, the average voter seize above the water, there's a giant formation below water that's all of the stuff we're talking about now. so look, you cover it if there's news. i think there is news there. she is acting in political ways on a political landscape. i think we all need to write about that. >> amy, what's the first year you can run for class president? is it high school, freshman year? these guys and women show their hand that day, 13 years old. hillary clinton was the star of her graduating class at wellesley. no doubt about it from the beginning before she met this guy named bill from arkansas she had her eye on the prize. this is something that comes with the territory. usually the guys but here we have a woman. by the way, i think the woman's movement behind hillary is bigger than her. i think the reason she will run and maybe win is the power of women my age who want her to be president. it's an overwhelming power base that has little or nothing to do with the tactics of her race. your thoughts? >> i think there's definitely that. you also look at the other reasons she's been in the news and her campaign in the news. one of them in new york is anthony weiner and the fact that somebody on her staff, huma abedin, her husband and gets asked about her job might be on the campaign. there are slightly random factors that made it sort of a complicated question for women as well as because it brings up the whole question of the clinton marriage and the choices that she's made. so there's that, too. i'm not sure that it's for women of every age it's overwhelmingly unambiguously exciting to have hillary be the standard bearer for that. >> but i'll talk about women my age i've had to deal with like close to home. i got to tell you that hillary has done so much in her career that i think that overwhelms efrgs. everything else. today on "morning joe," chuck todd said there have been unintended consequences of the big hillary clinton push and becoming so visible. we have also joining him is former white house press secretary robert gibbs who made a similar point of "meet the press" yesterday. >> there's lame duck status happens to any second term president in two phases. one is in washington and the ongoing back and forth with congress at some point, you sort of run out of political capital. the president is running up against the clock on that over the next year. but then the second phase, of course, is are you a leader of your own party? at some point, the outgoing president is no longer, you know, sort of is a leader at large but is no longer the rallying point. and if you're barack obama, you want that to start as late as you possibly can. nobody's saying this is what hillary clinton's trying to do or anything like that, but this is an unintended consequence and it's going to make it harder for barack obama to stay leader -- to sort of be able to marshal resources. >> i completely agree with chuck. i as a strategist am fairly floored she has decided to enter the public fray so quickly. >> wow. what do you make of that, amy? >> well, it's interesting because, you know, we were at a stage where we were going from bush to clinton to bush and then suddenly we're back at a clinton. it does have the effect of making the obama presidency seem what republicans in one way always hoped it was, an interlude. and it sort of makes it seem like a historical detour. now we're back to the story we already know. and there are advantages to that for her. but there is the sense, chuck is totally right of feeling a little tired and a little early. >> i get the feeling the president's become reactive. i mean, i was once warned don't be reactive, amy. stay with you. this idea of spending your life reactively, he gets a bad headline in the "new york times" about the egyptian military going well beyond what they should have done. and all of a sudden he has a press conference the next day. a reaction to editorial writing. that's dangerous when a president begins to be not a case of himself doing what he wants to do, why he was elected to be there, but simply reacting to events. that doesn't look strong. it looks to me mechanical. >> whatever you would say about the clintons, they're not just reactive. protean is a word that was always used about bill clinton. that way of disrupting and changing and setting agenda and tell a new story is something that they have been able to do and that maybe they're distracting obama from really figuring out his own way of doing now. >> you bet, chris, i know you don't bet, broder, one of our great grandfathers told you not to do this because he never predicted either and he was the greatest. why do you think joe biden might, this is the way i'm phrasing it, why would he might take on hillary for the nomination fight? if it came to that, knowing he's facing her? >> i think it's simple. he would like to be the president of the united states. i tell people the best indicator whether someone will run or not is have they run before. he's run twice, '87, '88, and 2008. i think he sees -- he is adds close to the job as anyone. he sees and believes in his heart of hearts he's the best person to do the job. my guess, though, chris, is that this is -- i think that joe biden might do it regardless is much more about if hillary doesn't run. i know the speculation is if she run, he might run too. i think the trip he's going to make to iowa next month to be at the tom harkin steak fry is about saying martin o'malley, elizabeth warren, all the other people out there if hillary doesn't run, i'm the top dog if she's not in this race and i'm in this race if she's not in. i can't see him ultimately running against hilary in what would amount to basically a one v. one. i don't think any other serious candidate -- >> the way you described it because they run before is a sign they'll run again it's like where do you find a baseball manager in the major leagues? look for somebody fired in the last three or four years. great to to have you on, amy. great magazine, by the way. coming up, stop and frisk. a judge has limited it dramatically and many have criticized it. tonight we'll hear from someone who says that the policy if done right is saving lives. in fact, it's saving the lives of those in tough neighborhoods. he's got the numbers, he says, to prove it. also, a lot of people say the united states should boycott the winter olympic games in russia this winter because of russia's new anti-gay laws. olympic gold medal winner greg louganis joins us tonight to say that's not his suggestion. but next, it's been 50 years since martin luther king jr.'s "i have a dream" speech and nearly that long since the passage of the civil rights act in 1964 and now "the butler" a movie based on the man who worked in the white house for eight presidents. i saw it last night. it is quite a movie. cuba gooding pops out so wonderfully is joining us live. and our new time slot, our new viewing habits. you and i together. this is "hardball," the place for politics. when you do what i do, you think about risk. i don't like the ups and downs of the market, but i can't just sit on my cash. i want to be prepared for the long haul. ishares minimum volatility etfs. investments designed for a smoother ride. find out why 9 out of 10 large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal. san diego mayor bob filner was due to return to city hall today but he didn't show up. some city residents in san diego are taking steps to make sure he goes for good. goes away. yesterday was the first day for recall supporters to collect signatures. they have to collect more than 100,000 in 39 days to move ahead with the recall. anti-filner protests you can see them picketing outside city hall. so far 16 women have come forward to accuse filner of sexual harassment. we'll be right back after this. out there owning it. the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. picasso painted one of his master works at 56. doris taerbaum finished her first marathon at 50. not everyone peaks in their twenties. throughout their lives. passion keeps them realizing possibilities. an ally for real possibilities. aarp. find tools and support at aarp.org/possibilities. welcome back to "hardball." next week, obviously, marks the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. a seminal event in the civil rights movement, one of the most famous speeches in u.s. history, martin luther king's "i have a dream" speech which i think is the second best speech ever given in this country right up there with lincoln's second inaugural. this weeks starts with a dramatic remind her confident arc of racial relations in this country with lee daniels' "the butler" which debuted at number one in the box office, made $25 million inspired by the life of an african-american white house butler who served from harry truman to ronald reagan over 34 years, spanning some of the most important years of the civil rights movement, starting with the federal troops going into little rock in the '50s. the starring roll in "the butler" is played by forest whitaker and cuba gooding. he plays his co-worker in the white house. in this clip, he welcome here's cuba gooding's character welcoming the new kid on the block, forest whitaker to the back rooms of the white house. >> there he is. heard you were coming. what's your name? >> cecil gaines. >> i'm carter wilson, the head butler. don't worry about big mo behind you. this brother in the mirror over here is james holloway, he's my second in command. >> why don't you shake the man's hand first before you start asking difficult questions. >> i want to know where the man's coming from. >> he give you the tour yet? >> he did. >> i might be able to answer that question if carter will stop running his nasty mouth. >> that was lenny kravitz at the basin. joining me right now is academy award winning actor cuba gooding, jr., and director lee daniels. you did it. last night i saw it in d.c. you got one customer and when i start selling a movie, i never stop. what i loved about it was the education. are you guys having a conversation without me? let me in on this. >> first off, thank you for all the wonderful things you said about the movie. we love to you death anyway. >> i couldn't hear a thing. >> he couldn't hear a thing. his ear piece -- so i was saying it to him. >> he's repeating what you're saying. i'm helen keller right now. >> here's the story. what i came away from not just the sweetness of the characters, you popped, cuba. you popped out of that room from that first scene. every once in an while, i'm getting down with forest whitaker's character because he's like job. like an old testament character. how much more crap can he take? in history from his kids, from his wife who's cheating on him? how much can he take and he keeps taking it. you have this effervescence and you're enjoying who you are and helping the kid out when he's in trouble secretly from the old man, giving him money but saying give me the money back. it was just a great, snappy character. i want to go back to lee on this question. tell me about your character, what it meant to you to play in the white house as a butler behind the scenes but yet a man on top of things? >> it was great because with this particular story, it's easy to make these butlers seem one dimensional and without emotion and life. almost like dehumanize them. they had to be in a room and be invisible in the room. so lenny kravitz and i had a real opportunity to be behind the scenes and just let our hair down, so to speak and to get you know, forest's butler to laugh and just experience life. particularly in those scenes in the house, it was just an opportunity. i mean lee was throwing stuff. threw a parrot at us during one scene. had me doing the james brown and all that, just to show that these were human people so that the audience could connect with them. >> lee, i don't know if you thought about this. i'm a movie nut going back to the '20s movies. john ford might haves. -- movies. can you hear me? >> no, he can't hear you. >> maybe you can translate here. here's what i want to know. >> i can hear you. >> black history. this move i reeks of black history. it's a little like forrest gump because the son is playing in selma, he's a black panther, he's everybody, he's everywhere. but the thing that hit me was, black folk in this country, african-americans not people from the caribbean or mixed background like the president, your history in this country is so deep and goes so far back to the beginnings of the colonization of this country. you've seen all the white people performance, you've seen all of us just like you've seen all the presidents. it's a sweeping look at how blacks are the real deep down americans. your history is american history. and that's what grabbed me about that movie last night. >> thank you. i did it originally, i did the film originally because to me it's a father and son love story. and what i found out that when we were doing the -- when we did the bus scene and the woolworth scene, the sit-ins, i found out it was deeper than just a father and son love story. that it is an american story. it's the civil rights movement and that the civil rights movement is american history. american history is the civil rights movement. we didn't ask to be brought over here, and we didn't ask for those atrocities to happen to us post us being freed as slaves. it's -- it was a magical experience, a learning experience for me. >> cuba, what you could see as an african-american, just as an american you can see the way blacks have to talk to white people. you know, because the white people maybe have power in situations and you have to put up with the bs, if you will of acting a certain way like you're happy when you're not, is your subservient when you don't feel subservient. what did that mean to you as you learn the way the movie is portraying the black experience of living in two ways, the white way you have to show yourself and the real family and friend way you behave. >> i got to be honest with you, chris. when i read this script, i thought that that was such a powerful mechanism to use to show the civil rights era. not an opinionated biased approach but an open approach splang two ideologies, one being representative of the teachings of dr. martin luther king, where we should be representative of a people -- accessible as a people and professional and act eloquently and speak eloquently. and then you had the other teachings of malcolm x who said by any means necessary we will get the respect that we deserve until he later changed his views. but this film seems to encompass both of these trains of thought through the relationship that is specific between the cecil gaines character and his son. and it was interesting because it wasn't just about race. it was about a parent and a son growing and evolving in their relationship. and one -- you know, all the misunderstandings and misgivings that we all have with our teenage children and how we have to give them the tools for them to be, you know, independent and strong and fierce and at the same time not be too overbearing on our own opinions on what they believe. and i think that's what's so beautiful about this movie is the statement is it opens a dialogue so that kids today can learn what we as americans, white and black, fought and struggled for during the sit-ins, during the freedom rider bus situations. and how we were -- we've been enriched by americans because of that experience and, you know, like i've been saying in all these interviews, we travel foreign a lot. and the american brand has been beaten up and if they knew where we have come from as a people, they'd understand that president barack obama is a natural progression of things to have a black president of such a wonderful nation. >> lee daniels, congratulations. i hope this movie wins every weekend for the next three months. i got to tell you, i'll never know what it's like to be black. >> come on, chris. >> this movie gives you a hint, a hint of what you think it might be like because it's so rich and because it's conflicting. you got oprah winfrey who was wonderful in this movie doing cheating, drinking too much. she straightened herself out at one point. she stopped drinking, staying faithful to her husband later on. a mixed person with problems. the young good looking woman who is not a good person. you've got the son who's a mixed bag. the other son is this loyal american that gets killed in vietnam. there's so much richness to the story. it's about people and about our country. you should be so proud. >> chris, what i've learned is that what i walked away from this film was that -- it wasn't as an african-american you think we as black people were the only people that experienced the civil rights movement. but there were so many white people just as many that were killed trying to help america with the civil rights movement. that was my learning experience from it and i hope everybody will walk away with that too. >> two of those three guys burned alive are white. thank you, cuba gooding. you're going to get an oscar nomination. oh, you are going to get one. >> we're already dealing with one in the movie and that's oprah. back off a little bit. >> she's going to win one too but the other guy, whitaker, is going to get the big one. thank you. lee daniels, great work. fabulous historic work. up next, it's america's biggest yard sale and if you ever wanted a souvenir from the war in afghanistan now is your chance. if you want a humvee and an important programming note. starting next monday, one week from today, catch "hardball" exclusively at 7:00 eastern. no more 5:00. for those of you watching at 5:00 eastern, next week you need to tune in at 7:00. don't worry, i'm going to keep reminding you all this week about that. we're going exclusively at 7:00 eastern. so we're going to have to share some time at a different time. anyway, that's "hardball." i'm "hardball." it's the place for politics. d d. at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors, where i can go ask for personal recommendations. that's the idea. before you have any work done, check angie's list. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey. because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. the beach on your tv is much closer than it appears. dive into labor day with up to 50% off hotels at travelocity. she loves a lot of it's what you love about her. but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go 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worth of military hardware used over the last 14 years in afghanistan will be coming home over the next 16 months. believe it or not, some of it can be yours at gov liquidation.com. there it is. it's like ebay for the department of defense. the site publicly auctions everything from aircraft parts and cranes to vending machines and household appliances. it's made more than $500 million for the department of defense as of 2011. but the drawdown in afghanistan which is the largest pullout in the american history means they'll have a lot more inventory in the coming months. next up, a san diego radio show took to the skies to send a not-so-subtle message to besieged mayor, bob filner. surrender it said. he's refused to resign and now facing a recall effort. the sky writing as an homage to the famous scene from "the wizard of oz." nobody expects a happy outcome in this case. catch this. u.s. senator ted cruz released his birth certificate on sunday to prove to naysayers that he is indeed a natural-born citizen. but according to the "dallas morning news" he may also be a canadian citizen as welt. after consulting with canadian legal scholars the paper reported "born in canada to an american mother, ted cruz became an instant u.s. citizen but under under canadian law he also became a citizen of that country the moment he was born there." unless the texas senator formally renounces his citizenship, he will remain a citizen of both countries. legal experts say, well, that means he could assert the right to vote in canada or even run for parliament up there. while dual citizenship doesn't preclude the senator from becoming president in this country, he's asserting that he's not, he says, a canadian citizen. they say differently. up next, stop and frisk. yes, it's controversial, but does it work? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. s favoritete! people wait for this promotion all year long. and now there are endless ways to love it... from crispy to spicy to 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[ doorbell rings ] ...and let the good life in. here's what's happening. egypt's ex-president, hosni mubarak, could be released from jail later this week. the move threatens to spark even more violence in that country. a massive wildfire in idaho has now torched more than 104,000 acres and is still spreading. it is only 9% contained. and new jersey chris christie signed a ban banning conversion therapy for gay teenagers, back to "hardball." i actually thought that bill thompson said it right. bill said he didn't like stop and frisk but he had a son he wanted to make sure the kid didn't get killed. the only way is to get guns off the streets. this is not just an academic exercise. this is people getting killed and sadly, unfortunately, we all see it again and again and again. it's the same group of people, young minority males and that just devastating that society. we've got to do something about it. >> welcome back to "hardball." talk about a tough subject, that was new york mayor michael bloomberg speaking earlier today making reference to bill thompson, an african-american democrat running for mayor right now who's taking a somewhat moderate position on the city's stop and frisk law. a couple candidates are trying to find the middle. his remarks came today at a press conference where he announced a massive sting operation. it resulted in the largest seizure of guns in new york's history. the shakedown comes as he continues to defend the city's controversial implementation of its stop and frisk program which the mayor argues that's bloomberg has made the city safer by taking guns like these guns they picked up in stop and frisk. a federal judge ruled the tactics were unconstitutionally targeting blacks and minorities in the courts right now. bloomberg was livid when the ruling came out last week. he's filing an appeal and continues to plead his case. not just with new yorkers but obviously the country. in today's "washington post," he spells out in a big editorial plainly stop and frisk is not racial profiling. unlike many cities where wealthy areas get special treatment, the nypd targets its manpower to the areas that suffer the highest crime levels. 90% of all those who commit the murders and other violent crimes are black and hispanic. it is shameful so many elected officials and editorial writers have been largely silent on these facts. when it comes to policing, political correctness is deadly. bill bratton is now an msnbc analyst and eugene robinson is a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. unlike other people, i'm going to try to find the way to good security in this country, people who love our cities, mr. commissioner, who love walking the streets of our cities in nighttime and in day and would like to walk to as many neighborhoods as they could at night without fear of death or mugging or something else. i believe police have a responsibility. i want the honest police officer man or woman, white, black, hispanic, latina or latino to do their job. my question is this, police are not scarecrows and don't just walk around in uniforms and nice hats and do their jobs by simply showing up. they have to take action, pro action to prevent crime. what's an appropriate role for a police officer if he sees people in his sights that he believes are out for trouble. nerts in other words, let's take the champl of a gang that has just suffered a hit and he thinks that gang is kwoeg ogoin for revenge that night. what's the proper role to prevent that crime? >> you would want it your officers to be cops, what cops are paid to do which is to go in harm's way. if they see something that rises to the level of a suspicion that a crime has been, is, or may be about to be committed, you want them to do something. you don't want them to do as they did in los angeles in 2001 and 2002 prior to my going there as chief of police, drive by and wave. and with the result a significant increase in crime. you want your cops to be assertive and active. but you also want them to be respectful. you want them to be mindful of the law, not break it to enforce it and you want them to in all neighborhoods of the city be the same, not behave differently in a minority neighborhood than you would in a white neighborhood. >> just to stay on that subject, like we do at airports, and i know gene and i have been in many airport situations where it looks hideously stupid. i've said before it's like lords where they expect people in wheelchairs to stand up and walk 30 feet to go through the turnstyle. i go why are they doing this to an older woman? they don't want to be prejudiced to people who look middle eastern. we know that story. but on the streets, would you stop four or five business guys coming out for lunch to see if they're carrying? would you do that in order for the optics? would you do that if you were commissioner of new york today to keep it consistent, as you say? >> you would not want your police officers to do that either absent something that atracks the attention of that individual to the police officer or the police officer attracted to them. and again, the supreme court has basically laid this out with a clear line that you can't go over. that you have to have a reasonable suspicion. and that's defined in the law and defined in -- >> i want gene's reaction to what you've said so far. >> i actually agree with the commissioner that you want police officers to be proactive. i think what the judge said in this case was that this policy, the way the policy is being done in new york, violates equal protection. it's not the same in all the neighborhoods of the city the way the commissioner said it should be. and you know, once you look at the figures, you look what's happened with stop and frisk, there's interesting things that jump out. one thing that jumps out at me, for 2012, 86% of those stopped were black and hispanic. in only 2% of those cases did they find any weapon at all on the person. 2% of the cases in which they frisked. but of the few whites who got frisked, in 4% of those cases they found weapons. that tells me there's something not bright about the way it's being done. that you're actually -- >> what do you think is at work here as a columnist and a person who covers social life in this country, what do you think is the motivation for the police to stop these usually young men, let's be blunt about it, minorities? why are they doing it, to harass them or what? >> i can't look into their minds. i think there's some genuine good police work going on. there's some element i think of keeping a neighborhood under control. look, it doesn't -- that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that it's not done in other neighborhoods and that in fact, the number one thing, the number one offense that gets alleged or charged after stop and frisk is marijuana offenses. so that makes it a victim of crime on wall street but not -- >> i'm with you, my friend, on that. is there any way you can stop and frisk for weapons and leave it at that, mr. commissioner? because it seems to me, we have a general public interest in not having guns on the street. that's why people have problems with stand your ground laws, why people walk around with guns. >> one of the reasons there's been so much resistance to the policies of mayor bloomberg is unfortunately, because of his focus, his well-intended focus on the issue of guns. he has created the impression that the reason that stop and frisk is practiced in new york city is to get guns off the street. that is one of the results, if you will, but stop and frisk is used for everything. if i stop you for a traffic violation, for drinking beer in an open container, it isn't intended to get guns off the street unless you specifically see a gun. the idea is stop and frisk is the basic tool of american policing. and so much of the resistance to what's going on in new york is around the idea that, well, geez, 600,000 stops but only 700 guns, isn't that really overkill, if you will, to get those guns? so it's -- we're talking past each other, unfortunately, on this situation. >> gene? >> yeah, and that's a problem, frankly, of the mayor's creation. the mayor keeps saying it's to get the guns off the street. >> it's not. >> so if he keeps setting that as the bar, people are going to say -- >> it confused me because i thought it was that too. >> that's what he said. i think you can get around the fourth amendment questions of unreasonable search and seizure. i think the 14th amendment questions of equal protection are more difficult, but they're easily solved. would it kill them to stop some white guys. would it kill them? >> i wish we had the technology where a police officer could have a scanner and find out if they're carrying. some day we'll have that. commissioner bratton, thank you sir. it's a decent argument. we're trying to find the truth here. eugene robinson, as always. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ash back, which is deposited in your fidelity account. is that it? 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president obama said he's opposed to a boycott. joining me, somebody who ought to know about this, former four time olympic gold medalist grag louganis, a diver. it's great to have you on. by the way -- >> it's great to be on. >> you know how that started? robert kaiser, a great reporter for the "washington post," columnist at the time, wrote a column saying we should boycott the olympics over the invasion of afghanistan. walter mondale, the vice president saw the article that morning, took it to jimmy carter, the president, who i was working for as a speechwriter and said, let's do. i think we have to be careful about these things. your thoughts. you're an athlete. your life, your career, your greatness comes from being able to compete. should we stop our young people from being able to compete because we don't like an ordinaordina ordinance in the russian government we don't like? >> right. >> your thoughts. >> i did compete in the 1976 olympic games in montreal and had that opportunity, silver medalist there. 1980, i was one of the team captains of the 1980 olympic team for our dive team. what we wanted to do is go over there, send one person into the opening ceremonies then all the rest of the athletes stay at home in protest of the soviet union's invasion of afghanistan but still have a presence there. and we had a really strong team. and, you know what, an athlete, an elite athlete has a shelf life. you know, i was fortunate. i was able to continue competing through '84, through '88. and i was on both sides of two boycotts. so i -- you know, i was very blessed in that way. but not all athletes have that opportunity. >> so what's the right way for people, gay and straight in this country, to say we don't like your stupid law? i don't even, by way, i mean, i don't want to be sarcastic about this. i don't know what it means to promote homosexuality. it's nature. you can argue about it. something like an advertising campaign isn't going to change your orientation. >> exactly. >> it seems to me. >> i would be a walking propaganda, myself, personally. i'm a gay man. i'm also hiv positive, but i'm also an athlete, too. so, you know, i'm totally against the -- >> what's the right smart american way to give an -- evolutionary values on this? i must say our values have changed, as you know, personally. so here we are, 20 or 30 years ahead of the russian people. what do we do to get them to catch up? how do we hit them hard or kiss them right way, whatever it takes to get them to change? >> i don't know if we're going to kiss them the right way. i don't know what's that about. >> it's not about anything. go ahead. >> so, but, you know, i think it would be wonderful for our athletes to go over there. you know, gay or straight. you know, and if they're sympathetic to the cause, i mean, because there are other untris involved here. there's denmark, there's the uk, there's sweden. >> how about a black power salutes at the olympics years ago where the black athletes did compete in the track and field but did put their fists up with the gloves on sometimes. >> they did. >> should something like that happen in russia this winter? >> you know, i don't know if it needs to be all that overt, either. i mean, if all our allies were to dedicate their performance to their gay uncles, son, daughters -- >> to make it individual. >> to make it individual because, you know, it personally says a story that they're in support of their gay family. >> we're out of time. you've got the standing to make that proposal. thank you so much for doing it here. greg louganis. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. at a dry cleaner, we replaced people with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally. do you mind grabbing my phone and opening the capital one purchase eraser? i need to redeem some venture miles before my demise. okay. it's easy to erase any recent travel expense i want. just pick that flight right there. mmm hmmm. give it a few taps, and...it's taken care of. this is pretty easy, and i see it works on hotels too. you bet. now if you like that, press the red button on top. ♪ how did he not see that coming? what's in your wallet? and then another. and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support and an end to alzheimer's disease. and that? that would be big. grab your friends and family and start a team today. register at alz.org let me finish tonight with this. i want to conclude the show tonight with a big ask. starting next monday, that's next monday, "hardball," the show of my dreams, will be on at 7:00 eastern. that's every night monday through friday at 7:00 eastern, not at 5:00. so what my big ask is, that you adjust your evening ritual. believe me i know it's a sweet time of day, to share company with me at 7:00. it's going to be one hour to share our points of view on what's happening in the country. i know from experience and from the political world in which i've lived the importance of asking. you ask to borrow the car from your dad, you ask a girl to a date, you ask someone to marry you. ultimately if you're lucky, you ask. now i'm asking you. i'd really appreciate you to share your time with me starting as soon as possible for you at 7:00. i'll have the news, i'll have the analysis, i'll have my attitude, as we say in philly, my attitude, my passion to make this a better country. with you aboard sharing your good time with me, we're going to keep trying to get it right. and oh, yeah, what i say to everyone who's kind enough to say hello to me when i'm on vacation, when you b
and michael kozak who helped negotiate the treaties. it features a 1978 address from are carter on the panama canal. >> first david mccullough, he discusses the history of the construction and answers viewers' questions. >> the path between the seas it traces the early days of the panama canal. good evening, mr. mccullough. >> let me ask you first, why do you have a picture of jules burn in your book >> it was the idea that almost anything in the world miraculous and progressive could be accomplished through the miracles of modern medicine, science and technology. he was a great friend of the builder of the suez canal. it was the spirit that they would move on to panama. and that this was the wave of the future and that they would simply repeat their success in this very different part of the world. forgetting that panama was a vastly different terrain and topography and climate, everything. >> today if you go to panama you still see fernand around. a couple of years ago there was a steakhouse. what would he think of the video today? >> it would probably break his heart. he was something of a rainmaker. he wasn't really an engineer, he was a promoteder, and a great believer in the infinite capacity for human beings to accomplish the untried and difficult. he was swept up by his own rhetoric as a way, and he had tremendous backing, because anyone who had invested in the suez canal had done very well. so the selling of stock in the new panama canal company was a big venture, it was exciting and like some of the stock speculation today with the wonders of technology. their problem, the french problem, when they came to attempt the panama canal was that they were in effect ahead of science and technology, that science and medicine had not resolved the problem of yellow fever and malaria. panama was a death trap, and the technology of the equipment to be used had not advanced sufficiently. furthermore it was an undertaking that was beyond the reach of private capitalization. it really took the treasury of a great nation behind it in order to guarantee success, and furthermore, and i think probably as important as almost anything else. the engineers that came out to panama, very brave, very able, very admirable men, had been trained at the polytechnique. the idea of improvisization which is so ingrained in american life. you do what works, you try something until you find something that works, and when that works, you go with it. they didn't know how to do that. they never resolved the problem of what to do with all of that water in panama. it can rise 20, 40 feet in less than 48 hours. rainfall is heavy on the atlantic side as almost anywhere in the world. the rainfall not measured in inches but in feet. and they just sort of thought we'll find a way. science will find a way and technology will find a way and they never figured it out. the incredible extraordinary irony of it is, at a meeting in 1879. a french engineer stood up at a meeting at the society of geography on the west left bank in paris, and said if you proceed with this notion of digging a sea level at panama. you will fail because your workers will die from disease, you can't build a sea level canal at that terrain. lift ships up over a series of locks, not through a trench, but a bridge of water. in other words, he proposed exactly the kind of canal that he was describing a few minutes ago, a canal that's quite complicated and quite miraculous in its conception. and they laughed him out of the room. they thought this was just preposterous. off the french went off to dig the canal and everything that he predicted happened. the french company went bankruptcy. and it was a very sad and sorry business. for one thing it gave rise to a wave of anti-semitism in france which gave rise to the dreyfuss affair because several involved were jewish and it was seen by some in france as a jewish plot, because they had been claiming progress in panama that in fact had not happened. the company failed, and it was the biggest financial collapse in history until then. it rocked the government in france and the government fell and there this brave effort sat turning back to the jungle, so to speak, with equipment lying everywhere and what was going to happen to it. >> we have divided the phone lines this evening, if you live in the east and central time zone. 202-624-1111. we have also set aside a specific phone line for people who have during their lifetime spent some time and lived in the panama canal zone. so at what point, mr. mccullough, did the americans first start taking interest in it, what was it? >> american engineers had built a railroad across panama at the time of the california gold rush, a 50 mile railroad that really set the path. the french were right. we had nicuragua would be a better place. we did all kinds of surveys. we tried to determine the best route and our determination was inspired by military necessity. we wanted a way to move our navy back and forth between the two oceans, but we also of course had the same kind of idealistic aspiration as had the french. >> do you think it would have happened without teddy roosevelt? >> yes, it would have. it wouldn't have happened as soon or as decisively or been as popular and patriotic. theodore roosevelt put his stamp on panama. he went down to panama and had himself photographed down there at the controls of the 95-ton erie steam shovel. he wore a white linen suit. really, the perfect picture for that era, confident, power involved and progressive and constructive. and he thought, theodore roosevelt believed, that the panama canal was going to be the greatest achievement of his time and of his administration, and he was very proud of it, he was very excited by it and well he should have been and well that the country should have been. this was really an immensely brave and heroic undertaking. nothing of this kind had ever been attempted before. it was the largest undertaking in the history of the world at that time. >> who was john stevens? >> a brilliant american engineer a railroad builder with james jay hill, he plotted the packet of the great northern railroad who came in at the early stages of the project and saw several things. he saw it would be feudal to try and build a sea-level canal and he saw nothing could be done until the disease problem was solved. that they could eradicate yellow fever and get rid of malaria. it was a major event in the history of medicine and the world. it gave proof that tropical countries could be relieved of these two terrible diseases. >> we'll talk about how he did that later. first up is silver spring, maryland. >> thank you for taking my call. having just returned from panama last month, i'm soon to be engaged to a panamanian national. i would like to ask mr. mccullough what he would reflect on, if we did not build the canal, what would have happened to that part of central america and how it might have altered history. >> i think it was inevitable that we would build the canal, just the question of when. there was such a demand for it. you have to keep in mind how much economics were involved. a canal through panama would save 8,000 miles on a voyage from new york to san francisco. 8,000 miles is a long way and of course, it has all kinds of impact on insurance rates and labor costs and rest, so while the cost of the canal was phenomenal, really beyond anything that anyone had imagined up until that point, it was minor compared to what it would mean economically to nations all over the world. my guess is, if it hadn't been built before the first world war, it would have been built soon after. we were really the only country equipped to build it. both economically and in terms of our capacity to mount that kind of an effort of labor and machinery and the rest. >> when it was built the canal was the largest manmade lake and the largest earth dam and the biggest concrete structure in the world. >> hello, how are you? >> how do you do, mr. schmidt? >> i worked 32 years for the panama canal and was born and raised in the canal zone, in 1936 i was born there and i went there to school. i assisted you when i was there. however i was behind the scenes and i worked for the marine director and many of the scenes within the locks and so forth and some of the items that you had to investigate, i was kind of behind the scenes and i do wish you well. >> thank you, it is great to hear from you and thank you for what you did during those years. >> you wrote the book how many years ago, mr. mccullough? >> it was published first in 1977. >> is it still available? >> it is still available, never been out of print, i'm glad to say. just reissued in new paperback edition. >> any idea how many books have been sold? >> no, i don't know that that. >> we had a film done for the nova series on pbs a number of years ago. once somebody has become interested in the panama canal, you really never lose that interest, and i think the veterans, if you will, of panama, the people who have worked for the canal or certainly those who worked building it never ever forget it. they love to talk about it. panama is a wonderful country. it is beautiful and the people are terrific. >> do they still call them zonians? >> i think that is dying out. >> i have a question i want to ask on the canal there. are you familiar with the treaties that transferred over to the panama here at the end of the month? >> yes, i am. >> do you know it will be in the treaties to transfer this that gives us the right to use military intervention, if we had to do it to defend the security of the canal and our usage of it? >> yes, that is part of the treaties, very important part of the treaties that was passed in 1978. >> one of the men who wrote that treaty will be here later, mike kozak. >> who were the people who actually built the canal. where were they from? >> people from every part of the world worked on the panama canal at one point or another. if you consider both the french and american times there. most of the labor came from the west indies, in the french time most of the people, men and women were from jamaica, in the years when the american engineers were in charge of the project, most of the workers came from ba barbados. >> they were english-speaking people and they came by the thousands. there were countless other people, too, from the workforce of the west indies. the real bruit labor, the real work, the front lines of this war, the infantry, if you will, were black men from barbados and jamaica. and one must never forget how many people died building the panama canal. >> how many died? >> no one will ever be able to calculate exactly, but a minimum of 25,000 people died building the panama canal. most of those people, about 20,000 died during the french period, when as we've already talked about, there was no understanding of yellow fever and malaria. most of them died from yellow fever and malaria. during the american time, over 5,000 people died, however, which is a great many human lives lost, and primarily from disease, again, but in this case, largely from pneumonia, but also from accidents, explosions, it was very dangerous work. the work in the yard cut the great excavation that went on and lasted for seven years. for seven years it was never silent. it went on night and day. the sound and the roar of the machinery, the movement back and forth of trains and steam shovels and armies of people working was really phenomenal and nobody in the world had ever seen such thing. it cost $10 million just to dig that seven miles of the cut. that's a million dollars a mile or more. it is staggering to see those old photographs. when you go through the canal today it is filled with water, so you're only seeing part of it. but the phenomenal accomplishment of the canal, really, are the locks, and the locks, as gilberto guardia was saying, are genius and imaginative, inelectually fascinating. that great canal takes a ship, lifts it up about 80 feet above sea-lev sea-level, sends it across the lake, sets the ship back down, using nothing but the force of gravity and using nothing but this water that the french couldn't figure out what to do with, the genius of the canal is that it took the great problem of panama, which was this torrential water flow and turned it into the solution. this is a brilliant lesson that very often in life and in large problems, the problem itself is the solution to the problem. so the fact that there was so much water. the fact that the water would continually renew itself made it possible to expel, as he said, 52 million gallons of water for every ship that goes through and it uses no pumps, no power at all, except the power of nature. in other words, it is using nature, it is working with nature, not against, which is the greatest form of engineering. the scale of it is really breath-taking. these ships are almost as tall as the empire state building. these are enormous ships. if you took one lock and stood it on end and there are 12 of these locks, it would be -- and put it on the new york skyline, it would be one of the tallest buildings in new york, just a little less than the empire state building. so the monumental undertaking, pouring all of that concrete, dealing with a very unstable geology, which gave rise to horrendous slides, mudslides coming down into the channel. every conceivable problem imagined. one of the most difficult terrains on earth. snakes, disease, endless water, 2,000 miles from the base of all supplies, this is the first time that the united states marshalled a great overseas effort. right at the start of the 20th century. so it is symbolically very important and interesting, too. >> one of the statistics we have is that one out of -- one person died for every ten feet of the panama canal. next call, good evening, caller, where are you calling from? >> i'm calling from richmond, virginia. >> go ahead you're on the air with david mccullough. >> caller, go ahead. >> mr. mccullough, this is janise green. my question is would you know what is the reason for -- why did it take so long to pass a treaty for the panama canal? >> well, there were many reasons why people were owe pesed to the treaties, they felt that this effort had been financed by the united states that american money, american leadership, american engineering, american equipment, american political leadership had built it, and it belonged to us. we had paid more for the panama canal than we had paid for alaska and the louisiana purchase and florida and california, all that we ever purchased in the way of the enlargement of our country geographically cost considerably less than what we paid for the panama canal. and so therefore why should we give it up. particularly as it has military importance. i don't think the carter administration realized when they got into this fight about the treatys, what exactly what kind of fire storm they were going to face, because the opposition was terrific as you remember. however, please understand that this wasn't some notion dreamed up in the time of president carter. the realization that new treaties and new arrangement in panama something more in tune with the 20th century go back to the eisenhower administration, so it was bound to happen. i think one of the most admirable encouraging aspects of it, since the treaty was passed, both sides have adhered to it. it has been a smooth partnership. >> hilton, north carolina, you're next. >> my name is frank. and i would like to make a few points about the canal. >> caller, i'm going to have to ask you to turn your television set down, we're getting a lot of feedback. >> okay. >> in respect to the operation of the dates, i don't believe you have made it clear how a 25 horsepower motor can move those gates. >> how is it done? >> those gates are seven feet thick and with two of them together or more, 110 feet, because they form a shallow feet to lock them when there's a waterhead behind them. those gates, you can watch them and you won't realize this, unless you're familiar with machine rooms, those gates are floated up and then reset on the seal after they get in place. all of the weight is removed by floating, except a few hundred pounds and that way a 25-horsepower motor moves them opened and closed. then when they get on the seal. they are reset so they will hold water. >> mr. mccullough. >> that's one of the miracles, one of the genius of this great creation and it is depending on water. the gates are hollow like an airplane wing. and they float. water is supporting the gates just the way -- taking most of the weight of the gates, just as water is lifting the ships up all of those feet through the force of gravity. as it was stated earlier, and i don't think it could be stressed too much. that is the same insulation. those are the same gates, and the same mechanisms within the walls of the locks, that were built in 1912, and 1913 to be ready when the canal opened in 1914. it was superbly built and engineered. it came in costing less than estimated and on time and despite the fact that they encountered one problem after another that nobody had reckoned on. >> there's an earlier treaty that we haven't talked about the verilla treaty. >> it was signed in washington by secretary of state john hay and verilla. they are doing business there at the start of the 20th century and mr. verilla was a frenchman who worked on the canal at the time of the french effort. he became a promoteder and a dealmaker, who signed a treaty, as the representative for panama. and the treaty is one that gave us our legal right to build the canal in this 10 mile wide zone in which the united states would act as if sovereign. not exactly sovereign, but as if sovereign. >> what year was that? >> 1904. >> and the bunau-varilla treaty was done quickly. the deal was all signed and delivered and this was very much of a slap in the face to them, and it remained a bone in the throat of panamanians ever since and understandably. our political engineering was nowhere near what our actual engineering was. and it was a shame. but we were in hurry and it was a different time and we had a president in office who was eager to get things done. he later said in a kind of show-off fashion, i took the canal and took panama and let congress debated it afterwards, while i went ahead and built it. it was quite arrogant and also very popular with people that he said that. in a way, it caused long-range problems of the kind that are regrettable, but it is important to understand how much these insul insults, as they were perceived by people in panama and by people in latin america, in general, how long lasting the hurt was from that. >> and this had happened just one year after panama had gotten its independence from columbia? >> no, it happened almost right away and the independence from columbia of course is a whole another story. there was a question to what extent was this a legitimate revolution and to what extent had it been injured by people like mr. bunau-varilla and the roosevelt administration. panama was part of columbia, and so columbia lost its most valuable province, because the prediction was that the canal would be built there eventually and this was to be a jewel. this was to be the goose that would lay the golden egg and this sliver was broken off from columbia, because we wanted to get a better agreement with the panamanians than we thought we could get with the columbians. it sounds crude and it sounds self-serving, but that's what it was about. >> saratoga springs, new york, hello. >> hello, mr. mccullough. i enjoy your scholarship and i lived in the zone from 1970 to 1972. i was really impressed with the new technologies that the canal zone demonstrated. one was concrete and the other was electricity, which the general electric company pioneered in that area. >> yes. >> but i was also -- i was a member of the united states army and observed some of the colonialism, i guess you could say, that existed at the time, in the canal zone. or actually it existed up until recently. >> where were you based, caller? >> i lived in fort clayton. >> which was the one that was just turned over last week. >> right. >> and you know, it was easy to notice that bessasically all pee who lived in the canal zone were u.s. citizens and they were employed by the u.s. government. they were either employed by the canal zone or the various military services. i was there during vietnam and there was of course quite a bit of military activity at the time. everyone there was required to have id cards. anyone who wanted to buy food within the canal zone needed to show id cards. i mention this specifically because of a couple of people we happened to meet in a store that we were purchasing minor things, deodorant and a magazine, i recall, and they did not have u.s. id cards but obviously u.s. citizens and members of the peace corps, and they were not allowed to buy these items in a panama canal store because they did not have id card. >> we showing fort clayton in october, if you go here, it kind of looks like a ghost town. >> i imagine. >> the caller just brought up several very important points. one is that the electrification of the canal. the idea that all of these mechanisms and valves and motors inside the locks, the locks are like watches inside, it is all run by electricity, it was conceived and designed and built before factories in america were electrified. >> and the idea that we didn't keep our way of life in the zone in harmony with the changing world and in juxtaposition with the life in panama. >> a panamanian, for example, couldn't buy anything in a store in the canal zone. where the prices were lower. if a panamanian were accused of some wrong-doing or breaking the law in the canal zone, he would be tried in an american court, in the english language, a language he couldn't understand. it was just made for trouble. >> this was because of the 1904 treaty? >> this is because of the way of life that set in there. nobody lived in the canal zone except employees of the canal. >> when i went down to do research on my book, i have a number of children, i thought it would be fine if we could stay there for several months and the children could go to an american school, which wouldn't be much of a disruption of the pattern of their life back home here. no, i couldn't live there, because i wasn't employed bit panama canal. it was a company town, it was a government town. ironically it was socialism in a model form and much of it was marvellous, wonderful. lovely climate. interesting work, important work, work to be proud of. good schools and services. fire department. postal system, handsome environment all around you, buildings, and palm trees. >> here is a map, you've got panama here and here, and right down the middle is this canal zone and right in the middle of that, you see the actual panama canal. two ports. one is balboa port here. which is on the pacific side, is that correct? i think so, mr. mccullough and then you have the other area, on the atlantic side. >> yes. >> and we had bases on both sides of this that now have reverted back to the panamanians. >> next. >> how were black workers treated in the building of the canal and were they treated the same as others? >> are there families there that are descendants of those workers? >> yes, there are. many are descendants of the jamaican workers who came there and who are fluent in english and read english. english is the operative language and for all that goes on there, and all that goes on there is very important. you have to really know what you're doing and you have to communicate exactly what's happening, these enormous ships going back and forth, it is ticklish. the black workers who came to panama were not treated equally with the white workers, they didn't live in quarters that were anywhere near as attractive or as adequate. they were paid less, and this he were -- you know, their work was infinitely more dangerous. some of them lived in real genuine squaller, however this doesn't justify the differential. but they were getting paid more than they ever had in their lives. there was never any problem about getting people to want to come and work there, and their pride and i know this because i've interviewed many of the people who worked and black people who were alive 20 years ago when i was working on my book, their pride in what was accomplished there. their pride in themselves, that they were part of this great work, just as great as anybody else that i was able to talk to who worked on the canal. >> hello. >> my name is michael smith, i'm a retired army colonel that was stationed there from '76 to '80. i wanted to pass on to you the tremendous delight that my soldiers and i enjoyed from your book, as an infantry lieutenant in the dark and in the jungle, i would oftentimes read stories from your book to them. they liked the leadership, and perseverance and all of these wonderful traits was that of marine lieutenant isaac strain. he led an exhibition of some 20-odd marines, i believe they were searching for a path between the seas at the lowest point trying to verify a certain path they had heard of. as you know, they encountered many difficulties, but his leadership got them through. i just wanted to pass on the tremendous delight. >> i can't tell you how much that means to me. thank you very much. >> thank you c-span for having me on here and mr. mccullough for being there for us tonight and i would like to let you know that i've seen the documentary on pbs many times. i watch it every time that it is on that i get the chance. you did mention in the documentary that the canal was proposed to go through nicaragua. i would like to know if you can elaborate on that. i understand there was a stamp that was commemorated on it and could you touch on that some? >> actually, mr. mccullough, we have that stamp that we can show viewers. >> it was popular with the country, particularly people in the south. it would have been a much shorter trip from new orleans to nicaragua than new orleans to panama. if one keeps in mind the geography of central america. central america swings way over to the east. many people think of it somewhere down below mexico, when in fact it is actually east of florida. so a ship coming out of new orleans could go through a nicaragua canal in much shorter time and much less distance than going through panama. also, it was believed there was little, if appreciably less disease in nicaragua than in panama. therefore that would be advantageous, and the people of nicaragua were somehow more receptive to building the canal there. it would have been a much longer canal and much more complicated and it wasn't the best route. panama really was the best route. the reason there was less disease, because malaria and yellow diseases feed on disease. the mosquito bites on somebody carrying the disease and carries that disease, like a mailman, if you to another person who has not been infected. the more people around who have the disease, the more the disease blossoms and spreads. the fight was intense, because there were a great many people that were determined that the canal would be built in panama. but mr. bunua-varilla put on a great campaign that panama was the only place to go. he was trying to sell the french works at panama, trying to bailout the old french company with their rights and equipment for which we paid $40 million, which was a tremendous amount of money. >> i want to ask you who gorkus was. >> varilla's point was there were volcanos in nicaragua, the opposition said there were no volcanos in nicaragua. and produced a nicaraguan stamp and he made that sure that every senator received one of those stamps as proof-positive that there were indeed volcanos in nicaragua and these volcanos might destroy any canal that was built there. >> and there was the stamp. >> dr. gorkus had worked on yellow fever after the spanish american war. he contracted yellow fever, if you contract yellow fever and you survive it, you are then immune from the disease for the rest of your life. >> they both had had yellow fever, so they could if to panama. they knew all they had to do was get rid of the yellow fever mosquito was to get rid of standing water. it is quite different from other mosquitos, it will only lay its eggs in fresh water held in artificial containers. the real problem comes back to water. they had to get rid of the standing water. water standing in open cisterns. water standing in tin cans. fresh water held in an artificial container, and they could reduce malaria by spraying oil on all standing water of any kind. in swamps, or low-lying marshland, wherever the malarian mosquito would also breed. this was a major break-through in medical history. medicine, disease, illness, so often affects history far more than most historians or most of us appreciate, this is a dramatic example of that. >> any zonian has probably been to the gorkus hospital that took care of a lot of people there. it is closed now. >> well, the anti-mosquito campaign was a big project and costly. and when the colonel came down to take charge sent by theodore roosevelt to be in charge of the engineering, he would figure out what this anti-mosquito project, the mosquito eradication was costing. you've realized that i computed that this mosquito campaign of yours is costing $10 a mosquito, for every mosquito you kill it is going to cost $10. that's an awful thing to burden the american government with. the doctor said yes, but what if one of those $10 mosquitos got you. so the campaign continued. >> a fumigation gang was sent out. >> they cleaned up everything. sewage, normal practices that we take for granted today, which had to be brought to bear on the whole community there, and keep in mind, that we really build whole towns, hospitals, schools, to house all of the people that came there from elsewhere in the world. this was -- it was -- you could imagine the mills set, compounded 100 times or a thousand times and that's what it was like and then when the water was to be let in and the canal was to be filled. they cut through and they struct the sets and they took it all away. when you're sailing across the lake in a cruise ship, let's say, there were whole towns and whole communities with dances saturday night and all of that. >> miami, florida, you're next, go ahead. >> good evening, i'm currently on active duty in the marine corps and i spent the last four months in panama as one of the base closers. i left right before the closing of fort clayton, that's where i lived when i was there. i just want to say thank you, mr. mccullough, i read the book while i was there and enjoyed it very much. just an interesting historical fact, the marines under then captain lejune. right after the declaring of independence in panama to help keep the peace and after the u.s. army pulled out of panama this summer, they sent a small group of marines down and i was one of them to be the final round of base closers, it was kind of a whole full circle thing. the marines were the first and last ones to be there. >> mr. mccullough, i commend you for your interview. it was very instructive, however i have a couple of questions i hope you can elaborate. my understanding and i've been to the canal and my understanding is that dr. carlos j. findley was the person who discovered the yellow fever that caused so much trouble at the canal and i saw a monument there that they have for him. also, i would like you to comments, if possible, panama has to have an army to protect the canal in order for us to be able to turn it over to them. now with invasion in panama and what have you, panama no longer has an army to defend it. what's the outcome of that? >> well, on the first question, the first point, dr. findley was the one who did the pioneering work on yellow fever in havana, and justly deserves a statue in panama or anywhere else in the tropical world. the protection of the panama canal, the military protection of the panama canal, as stipulated in the treaties is the responsibility of the united states. this is the clause that was brought up by an earlier caller. it is a very important part of the treaty. if the panama canal were to be in jeopardy from an outside force, it is the united states' right and responsibility to step in. >> your book ends where? >> my book ends in 1914 with the opening of the canal. >> in the meantime, between 1914, we're going to take our next move up to 1964. how did the treaty that we have been talk being, the earlier treaty, set up this relationship between the united states and panama that led to the unrest that began or really started to culminate in the 1960s? >> well, it was, as i said before, it was just a bone in the throat. it was more than a burr under the saddle. imagine a strip of territory, ten miles wide, cutting right through the center of your country. every time you want to go from one side of your country to the other, you've got to go through this noman's land of american sovereignty, quasi sovereignty, and you, if you're a panamanian, you resent that. i remember omar terios describing how as a little boy he had been on a bus driving across the canal zone with his mother, how the bus had been stopped and some american policemen had come on board the bus and scared him. he felt that somehow his mother was threatened and he didn't like that. nobody would like that. and our flag flying and all of the rest. now, keep in mind, there was much that we did was very good for panama. the lake itself, was brought up by gilberto guardia at the start of our program, is the finest form of freshwater, i suppose anywhere in latin america. a marvellous source of freshwater, and american personnel, in addition to the economy of panama, and of course panama shared in the revenue, as well as the prestige of the panama canal. but there was always the feeling, some day this has got to be different, and a riot was touched off in the 1960s, 1964, over the raising of a flag at a high school in the canal zone. and it got rough, it got out of hand. we have just seen recently how riots can get out of hand in seattle. it sort of was a wake-up call for people in washington, long overdue, that something had to be done. >> that's where we're going to move next. >> we'll say good night to david mccullough, the author of this book "the path between the seas", the winner of the pulitzer prize for his work on truman. >> what you working on now? >> a book about john and abigail adams. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. next we'll talk to a panamanian who was negotiator and then following the treaties. >> president, do you remember the first time that someone approached you and asked you -- started talking to you about being involved in a treaty that would become the panama canal treaty? >> yes, i remember. told me there was a new president in the united states, james carter, and a new time for negotiations and that two negotiators had been appointed by president carter. he told me the names and we took our first meeting with them in march of '77 in the embassy of panama in washington. >> what were your emotions at that time? >> well, the house was empty and very cold. he remained the whole time with his coat on, because there was a cold, a cold morning, and was a little bit rude. because we came from panama after certain years of negotiations. as you can see in these photographs here. after that president linden johnson, we assumed the conversations with panama with some scopes after years, those scopes had not reached any success. so we were a little -- a little scared that we were not going to have any new treaty. and for that reason, when we approached the negotiators of the united states, we did not believe that they really wanted to do justice for panama. not that in that moment. not in that time. >> take a step back from that. one of the negotiators was saw linowitz. he wrote about this period, he said for panamanians, the arrangement by and under the earlier treaty, the 1903 treaty that president roosevelt signed, were a source of shame to the panamanians. do you agree? >> yes. it was a source of pain. also there was a shame for the united states citizens, because i remember that in the discussions of the treaty of 1903, the senate and the congress of the united states, some senators rejected that treaty, and said it was too good for the united states and that probably that the panamanians won't like that treaty, and he was right. i remember, also that mr. tuft, who was also president of the supreme court. he was a man very concerned about that treaty. you know, maybe you know that the reason for that treaty so favorable to the united states with that kind of treaty, they were sure it would be rejected. it was really a treaty that was a shame for both countries. and for us, because it was a frenchman, the one who signed those treaties and he signed the treaties at 6:00 p.m. on november 18th of 1903. that means two hours before the panamanian delegation arrived in washington. so it was something of disgust and surprise for panamanians to know that this man signed the treaty without any sort of advice. >> you were born when? >> me? >> uh-huh. >> i was born in 1940. >> do you remember growing up what your reaction was to the fact that the americans had this strip through the middle of panama that they could do anything they wanted to? >> well, when i have explained the emotions that i felt to the european, they don't believe. when i explain that the panamanian has to use two plates, one plate, the panamanian one and the other plate the canal. so every car in panama in order to travel through the canal zone. that means in order to cross the canal to go to the rest of the country. they have to use two plates and two licenses, two driving licenses, one panamanian and one the american. i had a brother who died and he worked at the canal company. and he was very white man with green eyes and brown air and he cannot use the commisary for white people. all because he was panamanian. all of that luckily is over. >> so those were the emotions that you brought with you when you walked into the negotiations in the 1970s? >> there are many more. [laughter] i'll tell you one. >> sure. >> since i'm a lawyer, i remember when you broke a low in the canal zone, you were judged by an american judge in english, if you make an appeal that appeal has to go to the court in louisiana. louisiana, because it is a state in the united states that has some sort of law in the codes, so it is more or less similar to the panamanian law, but have you to go to the united states to obtain an appeal. >> so when you walked into the negotiating room, those first days, what was the one thing that you knew you wanted to walk out with? >> well, let me tell you very frankly something, we did not believe at that moment that we were to obtain that. we were pretending to obtain a lot of advantages. we were attempting to alleviate -- but we really did not think that on december 31st of 1999, the panama would be totally panamanian. we began to understand that after some meetings and sessions, of course we want that, but we were not sure we could obtain. >> you know when we became convinced? >> when? >> when the negotiators told us that president carter really wanted to make justice to panama. in that moment when he said that phrase, he will remember, we became convinced that we can obtain everything. >> did the americans make any mistakes in the negotiations? >> well, i don't think they made any mistakes -- well, sometimes they tell us that many of the things they were granting to us they were conceding would become very difficult in the capitol hill. we did not believe that. we thought that was a strategy of them when the critics came, we became convinced that they were saying the whole truth. and only the truth. that was very difficult to understand in the capitol hill. >> when you watched the debate after the treaties were signed and you watched that senate ratification debate. or you didn't watch it, you probably just heard about it. what was that like? >> we were watching. we were the general, and we were watching on tv the negotiations, the process, and you know, we won by one vote. so we were very concerned. after the ratification, we went and announced to the nation that a treaty had been ratified by the united states. and then we went to barbara walters, we went all together to the naturalized guard. that was the name of the army at that time. then from the balcony. announced that the operation that was conceived was not necessary. i don't remember the name. if they were not ratified, he would have a proposal to cause some kind of disturbance in the area of the canal. and he would use some soldiers to do that, that was very secret and only that night, the secret was revealed. >> would this treaty have happened with without general torrijos? >> well, that would be very difficult. it was something like the struggle of the nations. but he was a man that was necessary to broker what was previous relations with the united states and panama. he visited france, germany, the united kingdom. he visited brazil. he tried to obtain support. he formed a group with the president of venezuela, with presidents, and these four nations venezuela, columbia, costa rica and panama, they conformed the group. and they make a lot of support for panama. >> as you're saying at the time in was a much broader issue than that for the leaders of the country and some of the south american, and central american countries? >> yes. and you know why, because we all considered that -- that we will rule the canal, but we think panamanians, we can now lease the service to the world and we thought that we had the justice on our side. we have to find that the united states made justice for us. so let's say the great success was to obtain support for south americans and the rest of the world. >> would you have done it sooner, if you could have? >> in 1978 -- '77 and then '78 for the ratification. >> yes. >> so we're talk being quite a few years until the actually turnover. >> in the year '77, we thought there was a long time. let me tell you more. there was another negotiator's death. so we have had some losses. but i think this time has been very helpful for panamanians. helpful in the sense that we have been prepared, we had the transition time necessary for our preparation to operate the canal. so these 23 years have been a nice time for us to prepare. >> i'm looking at the young man, how old were you there? >> i was 37 years old at the time. >> would you have ended up being president of this country for four years if you hadn't been involved in those negotiations? >> well, maybe that helped a little bit, but in this time, besides being negotiator, i had been in touch with a lot of students, teachers, professors, so i was a very well-known person in the cabinet. but i should say that helped. >> the treaties themselves, why two? why were they divided? >> whose idea was that? >> the treaties? >> uh-huh. >> well, i will say there was -- there was a secession of previous generation and the previous took from the other generation and from then on. so we should remember that after 1903 treaties we had new treaties, in 1936, we obtained something. in 1955, we recover some other things. and then in 1967, there were another treaty, that redacted because the terms were too long, 99 years to recover the canal. we were not in agreement with that. more than a moderator of legal terms, he was a martyr of political issues. we wanted to have the justice. we wanted the schools to become panamanian. we wanted the police could become panamanian. wanted all of the services to become panamanian and we considered that a canal made in 1914 should be panamanian. so, and that would not jeopardize the relations between the united states and panama. what we would happen -- i hope that it will pass, as always, as that would be the best success for panama and the united states. that the canal would remain open forever. >> economically did panama get what it needed to get to move into this next step? there will not be any annual money coming from the united states; is that correct? >> after the 31st of december, no. >> that would depend totally on us. when the treaties were signed, the team integrated. they make a request with a lu lumpsum, something like $1 billion. for all of these years they remain here. they made, and the united states they know. but let me tell you this, which is very important, you know that the economic issue was the last represented by the united states, because we wanted to give them, the american negotiators and president carter that the economic -- that money was not very important to us. that we had much more important issues to present, and to claim for. so we were not interested in that. when the americans construct the canal in 1914, the united states was a country and a nation very concerned about money, they did not build the canal to make money. they built the canal as a business. they built something as a service for the world. we have to keep the canal. so as panamanians, we should see the canal as a source of great income for our nation, we have to see the canal as a service we have to render. we have a great responsibility, because we will have to invest a lot of money in the improvement of the canal and that's another issue. >> the part of the treaty in which america, the united states, can come back in to this country if the canal is ever in jeopardy, do you regret negotiating that? >> no. when we signed the treaties, i remember that the opposition, that we -- well, that we may may having like defeat. i do not agree with that. that's the canal. from any other country, we would never have had. the united states has the right and the duty to defend the canal. because we have no army. and even if we should have an army, that army would not be capable to avoid destruction of the canal. so i am totally in agreement with what we signed with the neutrality treaty. if the canal has any problem, that could not be -- the united states has to defend that canal. >> if jimmy carter would not become president of the united states, we still would be making negotiations and talking with the americans. this man, when he arrived to power in the united states, he promised himself and he promised to panama that he would do justice for us and he accomplished that. >> president royo, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> if you just joined us, we're talking about the panama canal and we're going to talk about the panama canal treatys with mr. kozak. >> i got started in 1971 with nixon and the negotiations had started earlier with president johnson and i continued on through the ford administration and into president carter's administration. in one sense they had bipartisan support in this. on the other hand, it was president carter who put the effort in and got it done. my guess is that treaties would have happened at some point. it was sort of a historical inevitability, but president carter deserves a lot of credit for taking the bull by the horns. >> what were the circumstances that brought you into writing the treaty. >> i was just out of law school and i was the last guy to arrive that year. i was put in latin american affairs and my boss had broken his knee playing tennis that weekend. somebody has got to cover this, you do it. >> many years later, i was scared to death, but as a result, i got involved in that time and ended up become the the veteran on the u.s. side after we changed negotiators several times. >> what was the key time period of the negotiations? >> well, it is hard to put an exact fix on that, because when you go back at the treaties now, portions of them were negotiated over the entire 13, 14 year period that royo was just talking about. the crucial period was during the carter administration when the real push was on to bring it to closure. a lot of the work was done both internally in the u.s. government, i would say from 1973 on. in the latter part of '73, we had resumed negotiations. in '71, those came to naught. later the chief administrator of the canal was the youngest guy on their team at that time. the two of us got the job of writing text and we saved a lot of it and used it in the final treaties. starting in '73, there was a big push put on in the nixon administration. secretary kissinger, he negotiated a set of principles, which kissinger went to panama and signed. there was a fair amount of drama involved there. that gave a new impetus to the negotiation. then we had a clear idea of what it would take on both sides to make a treaty. it was not clear that the wi willpower was there to bite the bullet and make the deal. that's where, i think, president carter came in. he put saul linowitz in. the ambassador linowitz put a lot of support in, coming up with formulas and we were able to bring it to fruition. >> it was really a cumulative efforts. >> where would you negotiate? >> during the rounds that finally brought us to fruition, we spent a lot of time at an island off the coast of panama. if got the negotiators away from your bureaucracies. when you were in capitols, you got phone calls about other matters. later on during the last few months, most of the negotiation was actually done in the state department building, and that was because at that point, moving the bureaucracy was more important. it was how to get us from here to there, so being close and engaged was convenient. so the last round we did was in panama in a hotel, so it really -- it varied. >> who would be in the room during the negotiations? >> well, on both sides, we had our chief negotiators during my early part, when i first started, it was ambassador robert anderson, and then ambassador bunker came on at '73. joined by ambassador linowitz in '77. occasionally they would meet by themselves. but most of the time they had their deputies, we had for a long time, maury bell, who was the panama country director. we had the general who was the secretary of defense's representative and deputy negotiator. >> would you sit around the table and chat or was it much more -- >> and then the panamanians had an equivalent. personalities changed from time to time. there was a fair amount of stability and we would sit on both sides of the table as you can envision in a negotiation. you had a lot of conversations on the side, too. that was one of the advantages of going out to the island. you would finish up the formal session and then sit down somewhere and have a sandwich or a cup of coffee. i know your guidance is so and so, what do you think about this? >> we were able to make a lot of progress that way. if we just stuck to the official positions as you can see from some of the panamanian commentary, it was such an emotional issue that they had developed that theology over the years about how everything had to be right and just. very hard to negotiate with somebody who is operating under that kinds of guidance. so we were able to develop, and ambassador bunker was very strong on this. look, we got to get these guys talking reality here. we would try to get them off to the side and say, look, let's put aside our formal guidance for a moment. what if we were able to do this, what would you be able to do? explore it around without having to go back without the bureaucracies and the politicians on both sides to agree to something before you could tell whether it was going to be productive or not. it is not unique to this negotiation, that's the way you negotiate. it was particularly important because there was so much emotion involved in the issue. >> was language a difficulty? >> no, not especially. a lot of americans spoke spanish and a lot of panamanians spoke english, and we had good interprete interpreters. side conversations were usually a mix of both languages. there's one called the panama canal treaty and there's a second one called the treaty concerning the panama canal. >> both of them signed at the same time. >> i'll give you background as to why that came about. you've heard from david mccullough and royo, some of the background with the 1903 treay.d you have to understand it, to understand what we did later on. it was negotiated by a frenchman. it granted the united states virtually total jurisdiction as david mccullough said, we had all rights, powers, and authority as if we were the sovereign in the canal zone. so it was a geographically designed jurisdiction. we could marry and divorce panamanians and give them traffic tickets. that's fairly easy to write, actually. it gave it to us as long as we paid 250,000 a year. the enclaves of the cities were closer than five miles. the result was they got surrounded by the canal zone and their growth was constrained by that. that was the situation we were dealing with. when we said we'll have a new treaty relationship that will have a fixed duration. the model we used and this is the panama canal treaty, the model we used were the post world war ii base rights agreement that we had done around the world. you have rights of territory and to do certain things. you don't take a piece of territory and say you have authority over everything there. we need this territory to to do canal operations and in that ter -- territory we can do all things necessary to that. you have to put in easements for your power lines and what have you. you also have associated with that the equivalent of the canal for agreement. the americans will be exempt from customs duties, exempt from taxes, if they get into criminal problems, a certain degree of criminal jurisdiction over them and the like. at the same time panamanians are not going to be subject to u.s. jurisdiction on those matters. the treaty basically says we cancel the old treaty, get rid of perpeptuity. it also grants the united states the functional rights to defend it and to maintain military bases there. then there's implementing agreements for each of those articles that have all of these details about customs, duties and the like. it also, the panama canal treaty, made provision for this gradual transfer of operation of the canal to panama. and this was actually one of the great contributions of ambassador linowitz. the board of directors of the u.s. canal commission would be made of five americans and four panamanians. you started having panamanians getting experience at that the board of directors level in the operation of the canal. it also made provision that the chief executive officer of the canal commission for the first ten years would be an american with a panamanian as deputy and then it switched and a panamanian national became the director, and the deputy became american. so even though those guys were working for an american government agency, they were panamanians and gauge that experience and then that was replicated down the line. i think that's one reason we're in very good shape. i would second what roger said about people in the canal zone. they were dedicated to the good operation of the canal and making a good seamless transition to panamanian authority. that's the scheme of the panama canal treaty. >> let me ask you one more question. that treaty in and of itself said how much money we would give to panama directly every year. >> to be clear in saying we, we in this case isn't the u.s. taxpayer, we is the users of the canal and via the toll system. under the original 1903 treaty, they got 250,000 a year. under the 1977 treaty, they got a fixed payment, a little bit complicated. a fixed payment of 10 million a year. they got royalties based on the amount of traffic going through the canal. a certain amount of cents per ton. there was another provision saying if the canal made a profit that the first ten million of that would go to panama. there was also payments taken out of that to the u.s. treasury that was paid as interest as original u.s. investment on the canal. there's been money flowing out from both governments. not money from the u.s. taxpayer into the panamanian system. >> that's one treaty. >> and that's also the canal operation to be clear. i think one of the earlier callers raised it. the u.s. did, of course, pay for the operation of our military bases, and the salaries we paid and so on, though come out of the defense department budgets, but the canal operation, the payments we've made to panama and to ourselves, that came out of the toll space. it provided this new scheme of sort of modern base rights type agreement functionally defined rather than geographically defined. that was a good treaty to deal with a lot of the issues, but the one thing you couldn't do is to deal with what's going to happen after the united states gives up the authority over the canal. so we did a second treaty called the treaty concerning the permanent neutrality and operation of the canal. this treaty interestingly was roughly methoodeled. it was done between the treaty with many of the european powers at the time. both of them what they have in common. the canals will be open to ships of all nations on n nondiscriminatory basis. making it available to everybody at just and reasonable tolls, to not impose regulations that aren't necessary to the efficient operation of the canal. to impose those on an equality basis, regardless of the nationality of the ship coming through. >> that was one important part was to -- in the original treaty that could be covered because that treaty was in perpuity. it will be binding on panama they are obligated to the same standards during the time they operate the canal in the future. that treaty had a couple of important points that were mentioned earlier. one was the idea of expeditious transit for u.s. ships. during the senate debate that got clarified and made more precise. war ships of the united states and panama, would be able to transit the canal, you know, sort of at the head of the line, during wartime. >> in perpetuity. >> yes. >> it is a bit of an exception to the neutrality and nondiscrimination that we do discriminate a bit in terms of priority. >> the second provision was the one that was just mentioned in the interview with president royo. it was very dicey to draft and even more dicey to debate later on. the idea was a provision that would allow each incountry. it would obligate each of us to take whatever action was necessary to keep the canal open and functioning on a n nondiscriminatory basis. the enforcement clause of the neutrality. for panama there was also the fear that this was going to turn into a u.s. -- or the u.s. would interpret this as a right to intervene in their internal affairs and change their government in a way we might like or something. on the u.s. side we were very keen to have it spelled out as clearly as possible in order to protect the operation of the canal. not to interfere in panamanian affairs. the concepts are clear, but how you write it in a way that everybody is comfortable became a difficult thing. we found some language in the treaty, it was interpreted later by president carter and the general torrijos. it was incorporated by the leadership of senator baker and bird being the two leaders. the amendments that were made during the treaty debate made it more precise, or more explicit with a was already there. it didn't change the understanding. if there were another emmanuel norwega, and he were take over panama. we could go back into panama. i think what both sides really envision is being a more likely. he, for one thing, shot some of our people. the more likely thing is if somebody else was bothering the canal, terrorists from another country, another power, or insurgency or something like that, that panama could call upon us. the idea is that the two parties have an absolute common interest in this and would act in cooperation. the occasions that we might find ourselves acting unilaterally were rare, but we wanted to make sure they were covered, too, and this he -- they are. >> the signing ceremony, do you remember it? >> i remember it well. i was working on the treaties up until 10 minutes before the ceremony. >> really? >> last minute issues in translation and all of that. >> where was it? >> the pan-american union headquartered in the united states here. all of the heads of stay, virtually all of the heads of state of the hemisphere were brought together to witness the signing. >> this was february 1st, 1978, when president carter gave his fireside chat about the panama canal. >> good evening. 75 years ago our nations signed a treaty which gave us rights to build a canal across panama. the result of the agreement have been of great benefit to ourselves and to other nations throughout the world who navigate the high seas. the building of the canal was one of the great engineering feats of history. it is relatively simple in design and has been reliable and efficient in operation. we americans are deeply proud of this great achievement. the canal has also been a source of pride and benefit to the people of panama. but because of some continuing discontent, because we have controlled a ten mile wide strip of land across a heart of their country, and because they consider the original terms of the agreement to be unfair, the people of panama have been dissatisfied with the treaty. it was drafted here in our country and was not signed by any panamanian. our own secretary of state who did sign the original treaty said it was vastly advantageous to the united states and not so advantageous to panama. in 1964, after consulting with former presidents, truman and eisenhower, president johnson committed our nation to work towards a new treaty with the republic of panama. last summer after 14 years of negotiations. under two democratic presidents and two republican presidents, we reached and signed an agreement that is fair and beneficial to both countries. the united states senate will soon debate whether these treaties will be ratified. >> we were determined that our national security interest would be protected that the canal would always be open and neutral and available to ships of all nations. that in time of need, or emergency, or war ships would have the right to go to the head of the line for priority passage through the canal and that our military forces would have the permanent right to defend the canal if it should ever be in danger. the new treaties meet all of these requirements. >> let me outline the terms of these agreements. there are two treaties, one covering the rest, and the other guaranteeing the safety, openness and neutrality of the canal. after the year 1999, when panama will be in charge of its operation. for the rest of this century, we will operate the canal, through a nine-person board of directors, five members will be from the united states and four will be from panama. within the area of the present canal zone. we have the right to select whatever lands and waters our military and civilian sources need, to maintain, operate and to defend the canal. >> about 75% of those who now maintain and operate the canal are panamanians. over the next 22 years, as we manage a canal together, this percentage will increase. the americans who work on the canal will continue to have their rights of employment, promotion and retirement, carefully protected. we will share with panama, some of the fees paid by shippers who use a canal as in the past, the canal should continue to be self-supportive. this is not a partisan issue. the treaties are strongly backed by president gerald ford and by former secretaries of state ross and kissinger. they are endorsed by businesses and professionals. especially leaders who represented good trade with leaders in this hemisphere. this week moved closer to ratification, by approving the treaties, although with some recommended changes, which we do not feel are needed. and the treaties are supported enthusiastically by every member of the joint chiefs of staff general george brown, the chairman, the chief of staff of the army, admirable james holloway. general david jones, chief of staff of the air force and general wilson of the marine corps. responsible men whose the defense of this nation and the preservation of our securities. the treaties have been overwhelming supported throughout latin america, but predictably they are opposed abroad by some who are unfriendly to the united states and they would like to disorder in panama and a disruption of our political, economic and military ties with our friends in central and south america. and in the caribbean. >> i know that the treaties also have been opposed by many americans. much of that opposition is based on misunderstanding and misinformation. i found when the full terms of the agreement are known. most people are convinced that a national interest of our country will be served best by ratifying the treaties. tonight i wants you to hear the facts. i want to add to the serious questions and tell you why i feel the panama canal treaties should be approved. the most important reason, the only reason to ratify the treaties that they are in the highest national interest of the united states and will strengthen our position in the world. our security interests will be stronger, our trade opportunities will be improved. we will demonstrate that as a large and powerful country, we're able to deal fairly and honorably with a proud but smaller sovereign nation. we will honor our commitment to those engaged in world commerce that the panama canal will be open and available for use at a reasonable and competitive cost, both now and in the future. >> let me answer specifically the most common questions about the treaties. will our nation have the right to protect and defend the canal against any armed attack or threat against the security of the canal or of ships going through it? the answer is yes. it is contained in both treaties and also in a statement of understanding between the leaders of our two nations. the first treaty says and i quote "the united states of america and the republic of panama commit themselves to protect and defend the panama canal. each party shall act in accordance with its constitutional processes to meet the danger resulting from an armed attack or other actions which threaten security of the panama canal or ships transiting it". the neutrality says the united states of america and the republic of panama agree to maintain the regime of neutrality established in this treaty which shall be maintained in order that the canal shall remain permanently neutral. to explain exactply -- exactly what that means. under the neutrality treaty panama and the united states will ensure that it remains open and secure to ships of all nation. the correct interpretation of this principle is that each of the two countries shall defend the canal against any threat to the regime of neutrality and consequently will have the right to act against any aggression or threat directed against the canal or against the peaceful transit of vessels through the canal. it is obvious that we can take whatever military action is necessary to make sure that the canal always remains open and safe. of course, this does not give the united states any right to intervene in the internal affairs of panama, nor would our military action ever be directed against the territorial integrity or the political independence of panama. even with the panamanian armed forces joined with us against brothers of a common enemy. it would take a large number of troops to ward off an attack. i would not hesitate to deploy whatever armed forces necessary to defend the canal. i have no doubt that even in a sustained combat that we would be successful. but there's a much better way than sending our sons and grandsons to fights in the jungles of panama. we would serve our interests better by implementing the new treaties, an action that will help to avoid any attack on the panama canal. what we want is a permanent right to use a canal. and we can defend this right through the treaties, through real cooperation with panama. the citizens of panama and their government have already shown their support of a new partnership and a protocol to the neutrality treaty will be signed by many other nations, thereby showing their strong approval. the new treaties will naturally change panama from a passive and sometimes deeply resentful bystander to an interested partner. this agreement leads to cooperation and not confrontation between our country and panama. another question is, why should we give away the panama canal zone? as many people say, we bought it, we've paid for it, it is ours. i must repeat a very important point. we do not own the panama canal zone. we have never had sovereignty over it. we have only had the right to use it. the canal zone cannot be compared with united states territory. we bought alaska from the russians, and no one has ever doubted that we own it. >> we bought the louisiana territories from france and that's an integral part of the united states, from the beginning, we have made an annual payment to panama to use their land, you do not pay rent on your own land. the panama canal zone has always been panamanian territory. the u.s. supreme court and previous presidents have repeatedly acknowledged the sovereignty of panama over the canal zone. we have needed to own the panama canal zone. anymore than we need to own land all wait through canada and alaska for the pipeline. it gives us not ownership of the canal but the right to use it and protect. as the chairman of the joints chief of staff has said it lies in its use. another question, can our naval ships, our war ships, in time of need or emergency, get through the canal immediately instead of waiting in line. the treaties answer that clearly. by guaranteeing that our ships will always have expeditious transit through the canal. to make sure that there could be no possible disagreement about what these words mean, the joint statement says that expeditious transit and i quote, is intended to ensure such vessels through the canal as quickly as possible without any impediment, with expedited treatment, in case of need or emergency to go to the head of the line of vessels in order to transit the canal rapidly. will the treaties affect our standing in latin america? >> will they create a so-called power vacuum which our enemies might move in to fill? they will do just the opposite. the treaties will increase our nation's influence in this hemisphere. it will help to reduce any mistrust and disagreement and they will remove a major source of anti-american feeling. a new era, a friendship and a cooperation is beginning. what they regard as a last remnant of alleged american colonialism is being removed. last of all, i met individually with the leaders of the this hemisphere. between the united states and latin america, there's already a new sense of equality and trust and respect that exists because of the panama canal treaties. this opens up a fine opportunity for us, in goodwill, trade, jobs, exports and political cooperation. if the treaty should be rejected, this would all be lost and disappointment and despair, among our good neighbors and traditional friends would be severe. in the peaceful struggle against alien idologists, this would be a good step in the right direction. what if a new sea-level canal should be needed in the future? >> this question has been studied over and over throughout the century, from before the time the canal was built and throughout the last few years. the every study has reached the same conclusion that the best place to build a sea-level canal is in panama. the treaties say that if we want to build such a canal, we will build it in panama and if any canal is to be built in panama that we the united states will have the right to participate in the project. this is of clear benefit to us. it ensures that say, ten or twenty years from now, no unfriendly, but wealthy power will be able to purchase a right of the sea-level canal, to bypass the existing canal. perhaps leaving that other nation in control of the only useable waterway. are we paying panama to take the canal? >> we are not. under the new treaty, any payments to panama will come from tolls paid by ships which use the canal. what about the present and the future stability and the capability of the panamanian government? do the people of panama themselves support the agreement? well, as you know, panama and her people have been historical allies and friends. the president leader has been in office for more than nine years and he heads a stable government which has encouraged the development of free enterprise in panama. democratic elections will be held this office to choose the members of the panamanian assembly who will in turn elect a president and a vice president by majority vote. in the past, regimes have changed in panama. but for 75 years, no panamanian government has ever wanted to close the canal. panama wants the canal open and neutral. perhaps even more than we do. the canal's continued operation is very important to us, but it is much more than that to panama. to panama, it is crucial. much of their economy flows directly or indirectly from the canal. panama would be no more likely to neglect or close the highway that is we would be to close a highway here in the united states. the people of panama gave the new treaties their support. the major threat to the canal comes not from any government of panama, but from misguided persons, who may try to fan the flames of dissatisfaction with the terms of the old treaty. there's a final question about the deeper meaning of the treaties themselves to us and to panama. recently i discussed the treaties with david mccullough author of "the path between the seas" the great history of the panama canal. he believes the canal is something we have built and have looked after for many years. it is ours in that sense. which is very different from just ownership. so when we talk of the canal, whether we are old, young, for or against the treaties, we are talking about very deep and elemental feelings about our own strength. still, we americans want a more humane and stable world. we believe in goodwill and fairness, as well as strength. this agreement with panama is something we want because we know it is right. this is not merely the surest way to protect and save the canal. it is a strong, positive act of a people who are still confident, still creative, still great. in new partnership can become a source of national pride and self-respect in much the same way that building the canal was 75 years ago. it is a spirit in which we act that is so very important. theodore roosevelt, who was president when america built the canal, saw a history itself as a force. and the history of our own time and the changes it has brought would not be lost on him. he knew that change was inevitable, and necessary. change is growth, the true conservative keeps his face to the future. but if theodore roosevelt were to endorse the treaties, as i'm quite sure he would, it would be mainly because he could see the decision as one by which we are demonstrating the kind of great power we wish to be. we cannot avoid meeting great issues, all we can determine for ourselves is whether we shall meet them well or ill. the panama canal is a vast heroic expression of that age-old expression to bridge or divide. we can sense what roosevelt called the lift toward nobler things. in this historic decision, he would join us in our pride for being a great and generous people with a national strength and wisdom to do what is right for us, and what is fair to others. thank you very much. >> 200 years ago on august 24th. 1814. british soldiers routed american troops at the battle just outside washington d.c. it left the nation's capitol wide open to forces. you can learn more about the burning of washington during the war of 1812 this thursday from author and historian anthony pitch at an event hosted by the smithsonian associates.
forces were fully organized and ready to make their kick. why suddenly does it feel like she's in the driver's seat? well, people are either positioning themselves already for a role in hillary's government or acting to lock in positions they have with either her or the few people she would give authority to hire for her. why does it feel like the train has already left the station? what does this mean for the other side? if the republicans are also looking for jobs in 2016 and need to win to get those jobs, if they see her on the move already, does that mean they're more likely to push a candidate who actually has a good chance of boxing her out for the center? those people in the middle politically? in other words, new jersey governor chris christie. does this help give him a leg up? speaking of boxing out, is that what the earlier than expected coming of hillary is doing to president obama? he's still in the inaugural term of his second term. is he getting brushed aside from the rush for jobs and connections to a president who has yet to take office and might never take office? who is to blame for all the hilary action right now? a foo feisty crowd pushing her? a media, okay, i'm part of it, looking hungry for the next big story or is it the president in the oval office? is the reason hillary's getting all this attention, the reason the former secretary of state is getting the big buildup because the man in the white house and the fire and excitement for action with three years to get things done is so dimly lit right now? "the washington post" chris cillizza is an msnbc political analyst and amy davidson is senior editor for the beautiful, well written, "new yorker" magazine. i want to start with chris. great column in the post, "the washington post" about sort of the oil and water aspect of what's his name, rand paul who's name i'll learn to say more quickly and chris christie. they don't have nothing in common. it's like that movie "the candidate. " we ain't got nothing in common. let's talk about the dems. >> sure. >> the democratic party used to be the party where all the fight was. there was a fight between left and right -- civil rights, anti-civil rights, the old seggies hanging in there. now it seems to be a party of sort of a general agreement. sort of the same party. but i noticed something over the weekend. the slow, what do you call it, the thing where you change color to meet the background, the fitting in thing of the animal. >> chameleon. >> the chameleon party seems to be changing color to a hillary background rather than an obama background. i know you are reporting on the phone all day must be hearing this. >> well, you know, what you hit on in the intro, chris, is right, which is i will say i am struck by how aggressive and how public she herself is being with this series of speeches. she's given one, going to give two more on sort of big topics, voting rights, foreign policy. talk about national security. there's no way to interpret those kind of speeches except that laying the groundwork for 2016. i'll add one other quick thing to it which is the ready for hillary super pac, the extent to which real clinton hands, i'm not talking about sort of lower level operatives, herald ickes, huge fund-raisers, huge factor in the clinton world, he is affiliated with it. some of the obama folks, jeremy bird and mitch stewart very involved in the obama field organization are affiliated with it. i guarantee you if hillary clinton or someone in her world said to harold ickes don't get involved with this right now, it's going to spur this thing out of control, we don't want it to start yet, harold would not be involved yet. so there's both -- >> you're so right. people are so talking, the old joke is are they measuring the drapes. let's be more practical. they're all talking about who should be chief of staff. i was pushing ed rendell. they're already doing the deck chairs. this is 2013. it's the first year of obama's second term and they're already talking about hillary and who is going to do what. are we ahead of schedule on purpose or is this sheer accident? have they blown it by getting out too fast or is it just smart to keep biden out of the race? >> i don't think it's an accident. you have to look at where she's coming from. she came from a highly visible role as secretary of state. i'm not sure she knows how not to be visible at this stage in her life after all of the places she's been and the way she's been doing it. what's really interesting in terms of obama's visibility is that even as her secretary of stateship seems more and more now about having been about her and about her stature and less and less about really crystallizing an obama agenda, and so now his foreign policy fields really a little vacant, especially in the face of the crisis in egypt and the nsa. >> i think john kerry is doing a hell of a job bringing together the middle east because hillary hadn't done that. in all fairness to him, he's done what she hadn't yet done. that's the fact. >> it's true. look at her luck in a way. she left the secretary of stateship before she had to deal with questions like edward snowden's passport or the crisis in egypt. now it really can be about her and about her candidacy. >> the "new york times," amy, now has a reporter, a desk editor whose entire job at "the new york times" cillizza back to you, your competition is in the "new york times," there's an editor, this woman has been assigned the job of hillary editor. that's how close it's gotten. >> look, chris, people always say to me, because i write a lot about this stuff unapologetically so, people always say it's too early. if you think that no one who is thinking about running for president makes their decision till after the 2014 election, you're just wrong. rand paul, ted cruz, marco rubio, scott walker, you know, that's -- martin o'malley. joe biden. there's a story in "the wall street journal" today joe biden says he might run regardless. this is a huge process. i compare it to an iceberg. the little part that people see above the water, the average voter seize above the water, there's a giant formation below water that's all of the stuff we're talking about now. so look, you cover it if there's news. i think there is news there. she is acting in political ways on a political landscape. i think we all need to write about that. >> amy, what's the first year you can run for class president? is it high school, freshman year? these guys and women show their hand that day, 13 years old. hillary clinton was the star of her graduating class at wellesley. no doubt about it from the beginning before she met this guy named bill from arkansas she had her eye on the prize. this is something that comes with the territory. usually the guys but here we have a woman. by the way, i think the woman's movement behind hillary is bigger than her. i think the reason she will run and maybe win is the power of women my age who want her to be president. it's an overwhelming power base that has little or nothing to do with the tactics of her race. your thoughts? >> i think there's definitely that. you also look at the other reasons she's been in the news and her campaign in the news. one of them in new york is anthony weiner and the fact that somebody on her staff, huma abedin, her husband and gets asked about her job might be on the campaign. there are slightly random factors that made it sort of a complicated question for women as well as because it brings up the whole question of the clinton marriage and the choices that she's made. so there's that, too. i'm not sure that it's for women of every age it's overwhelmingly unambiguously exciting to have hillary be the standard bearer for that. >> but i'll talk about women my age i've had to deal with like close to home. i got to tell you that hillary has done so much in her career that i think that overwhelms everything else. today on "morning joe," chuck todd said there have been unintended consequences of the big hillary clinton push and becoming so visible. we have also joining him is former white house press secretary robert gibbs who made a similar point on "meet the press" yesterday. >> there's lame duck status happens to any second term president in two phases. one is in washington and the ongoing back and forth with congress at some point, you sort of run out of political capital. the president is running up against the clock on that over the next year. but then the second phase, of course, is are you a leader of your own party? at some point, the outgoing president is no longer, you know, sort of is a leader at large but is no longer the rallying point. and if you're barack obama, you want that to start as late as you possibly can. nobody's saying this is what hillary clinton's trying to do or anything like that, but this is an unintended consequence and it's going to make it harder for barack obama to stay leader -- to sort of be able to marshal resources. >> i completely agree with chuck. i as a strategist am fairly floored she has decided to enter the public fray so quickly. >> wow. what do you make of that, amy? >> well, it's interesting because, you know, we were at a stage where we were going from bush to clinton to bush and then suddenly we're back at a clinton. it does have the effect of making the obama presidency seem what republicans in one way always hoped it was, an interlude. and it sort of makes it seem like a historical detour. now we're back to the story we already know. and there are advantages to that for her. but there is the sense, chuck is totally right of feeling a little tired and a little early. >> i get the feeling the president's become reactive. i mean, i was once warned don't be reactive, amy. stay with you. this idea of spending your life reactively, he gets a bad headline in the "new york times" about the egyptian military going well beyond what they should have done. and all of a sudden he has a press conference the next day. a reaction to editorial writing. that's dangerous when a president begins to be not a case of himself doing what he wants to do, why he was elected to be there, but simply reacting to events. that doesn't look strong. it looks to me mechanical. >> whatever you would say about the clintons, they're not just reactive. protean is a word that was always used about bill clinton. that way of disrupting and changing and setting agenda and tell a new story is something that they have been able to do and that maybe they're distracting obama from really figuring out his own way of doing now. >> you bet, chris, i know you don't bet, broder, one of our great grandfathers told you not to do this because he never predicted either and he was the greatest. why do you think joe biden might, this is the way i'm phrasing it, why would he might take on hillary for the nomination fight? if it came to that, knowing he's facing her? >> i think it's simple. he would like to be the president of the united states. i tell people the best indicator whether someone will run or not is have they run before. he's run twice, '87, '88, and 2008. i think he sees -- he is adds close to the job as anyone. he sees and believes in his heart of hearts he's the best person to do the job. my guess, though, chris, is that this is -- i think that joe biden might do it regardless is much more about if hillary doesn't run. i know the speculation is if she run, he might run too. i think the trip he's going to make to iowa next month to be at the tom harkin steak fry is about saying martin o'malley, elizabeth warren, all the other people out there if hillary doesn't run, i'm the top dog if she's not in this race and i'm in this race if she's not in. i can't see him ultimately running against hilary in what would amount to basically a one v. one. i don't think any other serious candidate -- >> the way you described it because they run before is a sign they'll run again it's like where you find a baseball manager in the major leagues? look for somebody fired in the last three or four years. great to to have you on, amy. great magazine, by the way. coming up, stop and frisk. a judge has limited it dramatically and many have criticized it. tonight we'll hear from someone who says that the policy if done right is saving lives. in fact, it's saving the lives of those in tough neighborhoods. he's got the numbers, he says, to prove it. also, a lot of people say the united states should boycott the winter olympic games in russia this winter because of russia's new anti-gay laws. olympic gold medal winner greg louganis joins us tonight to say that's not his suggestion. but next, it's been 50 years since martin luther king jr.'s "i have a dream" speech and nearly that long since the passage of the civil rights act in 1964 and now "the butler" a movie based on the man who worked in the white house for eight presidents. i saw it last night. it is quite a movie. cuba gooding pops out so wonderfully is joining us live. and our new time slot, our new viewing habits. you and i together. this is "hardball," the place for politics. san diego mayor bob filner was due to return to city hall today but he didn't show up. some city residents in san diego are taking steps to make sure he goes for good. goes away. yesterday was the first day for recall supporters to collect signatures. they have to collect more than 100,000 in 39 days to move ahead with the recall. anti-filner protests you can see them picketing outside city hall. so far 16 women have come forward to accuse filner of sexual harassment. we'll be right back after this. g good around ♪ ♪ turn around barry ♪ i finally found the right snack ♪ ♪ welcome back to "hardball." next week, obviously, marks the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. a seminal event in the civil rights movement, one of the most famous speeches in u.s. history, martin luther king's "i have a dream" speech which i think is the second best speech ever given in this country right up there with lincoln's second inaugural. this weeks starts with a dramatic remind her confident arc of racial relations in this country with lee daniels' "the butler" which debuted at number one in the box office, made $25 million inspired by the life of an african-american white house butler who served from harry truman to ronald reagan over 34 years, spanning some of the most important years of the civil rights movement, starting with the federal troops going into little rock in the '50s. the starring roll in "the butler" is played by forest whitaker and cuba gooding. he plays his co-worker in the white house. in this clip, he welcome here's cuba gooding's character welcoming the new kid on the block, forest whitaker to the back rooms of the white house. >> there he is. heard you were coming. what's your name? >> cecil gaines. >> i'm carter wilson, the head butler. don't worry about big mo behind you. this brother in the mirror over here is james holloway, he's my second in command. >> why don't you shake the man's hand first before you start asking difficult questions. >> i want to know where the man's coming from. >> he give you the tour yet? >> he did. >> i might be able to answer that question if carter will stop running his nasty mouth. >> that was lenny kravitz at the basin. joining me right now is academy award winning actor cuba gooding, jr., and director lee daniels. you did it. last night i saw it in d.c. you got one customer and when i start selling a movie, i never stop. what i loved about it was the education. are you guys having a conversation without me? let me in on this. >> first off, thank you for all the wonderful things you said about the movie. we love to you death anyway. >> i couldn't hear a thing. >> he couldn't hear a thing. his ear piece -- so i was saying it to him. >> he's repeating what you're saying. i'm helen keller right now. >> here's the story. what i came away from not just the sweetness of the characters, you popped, cuba. you popped out of that room from that first scene. every once in an while, i'm getting down with forest whitaker's character because he's like job. like an old testament character. how much more crap can he take? in history from his kids, from his wife who's cheating on him? how much can he take and he keeps taking it. you have this effervescence and you're enjoying who you are and helping the kid out when he's in trouble secretly from the old man, giving him money but saying give me the money back. it was just a great, snappy character. i want to go back to lee on this question. tell me about your character, what it meant to you to play in the white house as a butler behind the scenes but yet a man on top of things? >> it was great because with this particular story, it's easy to make these butlers seem one dimensional and without emotion and life. almost like dehumanize them. they had to be in a room and be invisible in the room. so lenny kravitz and i had a real opportunity to be behind the scenes and just let our hair down, so to speak and to get you know, forest's butler to laugh and just experience life. particularly in those scenes in the house, it was just an opportunity. i mean lee was throwing stuff. threw a parrot at us during one scene. had me doing the james brown and all that, just to show that these were human people so that the audience could connect with them. >> lee, i don't know if you thought about this. i'm a movie nut going back to the '20s movies. john ford might haves. -- movies. can you hear me? >> no, he can't hear you. >> maybe you can translate here. here's what i want to know. >> i can hear you. >> black history. this move i reeks of black history. it's a little like forrest gump because the son is playing in selma, he's a black panther, he's everybody, he's everywhere. but the thing that hit me was, black folk in this country, african-americans not people from the caribbean or mixed background like the president, your history in this country is so deep and goes so far back to the beginnings of the colonization of this country. you've seen all the white people performance, you've seen all of us just like you've seen all the presidents. it's a sweeping look at how blacks are the real deep down americans. your history is american history. and that's what grabbed me about that movie last night. >> thank you. i did it originally, i did the film originally because to me it's a father and son love story. and what i found out that when we were doing the -- when we did the bus scene and the woolworth scene, the sit-ins, i found out it was deeper than just a father and son love story. that it is an american story. it's the civil rights movement and that the civil rights movement is american history. american history is the civil rights movement. we didn't ask to be brought over here, and we didn't ask for those atrocities to happen to us post us being freed as slaves. it's -- it was a magical experience, a learning experience for me. >> cuba, what you could see as an african-american, just as an american you can see the way blacks have to talk to white people. you know, because the white people maybe have power in situations and you have to put up with the bs, if you will of acting a certain way like you're happy when you're not, is your subservient when you don't feel subservient. what did that mean to you as you learn the way the movie is portraying the black experience of living in two ways, the white way you have to show yourself and the real family and friend way you behave. >> i got to be honest with you, chris. when i read this script, i thought that that was such a powerful mechanism to use to show the civil rights era. not an opinionated biased approach but an open approach explaining two ideologies, one being representative of the teachings of dr. martin luther king, where we should be representative of a people -- accessible as a people and professional and act eloquently and speak eloquently. and then you had the other teachings of malcolm x who said by any means necessary we will get the respect that we deserve until he later changed his views. but this film seems to encompass both of these trains of thought through the relationship that is specific between the cecil gaines character and his son. and it was interesting because it wasn't just about race. it was about a parent and a son growing and evolving in their relationship. and one -- you know, all the misunderstandings and misgivings that we all have with our teenage children and how we have to give them the tools for them to be, you know, independent and strong and fierce and at the same time not be too overbearing on our own opinions on what they believe. and i think that's what's so beautiful about this movie is the statement is it opens a dialogue so that kids today can learn what we as americans, white and black, fought and struggled for during the sit-ins, during the freedom rider bus situations. and how we were -- we've been enriched by americans because of that experience and, you know, like i've been saying in all these interviews, we travel foreign a lot. and the american brand has been beaten up and if they knew where we have come from as a people, they'd understand that president barack obama is a natural progression of things to have a black president of such a wonderful nation. >> lee daniels, congratulations. i hope this movie wins every weekend for the next three months. i got to tell you, i'll never know what it's like to be black. >> come on, chris. >> this movie gives you a hint, a hint of what you think it might be like because it's so rich and because it's conflicting. you got oprah winfrey who was wonderful in this movie doing cheating, drinking too much. she straightened herself out at one point. she stopped drinking, staying faithful to her husband later on. a mixed person with problems. the young good looking woman who is not a good person. you've got the son who's a mixed bag. the other son is this loyal american that gets killed in vietnam. there's so much richness to the story. it's about people and about our country. you should be so proud. >> chris, what i've learned is that what i walked away from this film was that -- it wasn't as an african-american you think we as black people were the only people that experienced the civil rights movement. but there were so many white people just as many that were killed trying to help america with the civil rights movement. that was my learning experience from it and i hope everybody will walk away with that too. >> two of those three guys burned alive are white. thank you, cuba gooding. you're going to get an oscar nomination. oh, you are going to get one. >> we're already dealing with one in the movie and that's oprah. back off a little bit. >> she's going to win one too but the other guy, whitaker, is going to get the big one. thank you. lee daniels, great work. fabulous historic work. up next, it's america's biggest yard sale and if you ever wanted a souvenir from the war in afghanistan now is your chance. if you want a humvee and an important programming note. starting next monday, one week from today, catch "hardball" exclusively at 7:00 eastern. no more 5:00. for those of you watching at 5:00 eastern, next week you need to tune in at 7:00. don't worry, i'm going to keep reminding you all this week about that. we're going exclusively at 7:00 eastern. so we're going to have to share some time at a different time. anyway, that's "hardball." i'm "hardball." it's the place for politics. back to "hardball." and time for "the sideshow". if you've ever dreamed of taking a joyride around the neighborhood in a camouflaged five-to know cargo truck, now's your chance. $50 billion worth of military hardware used over the last 14 years in afghanistan will be coming home over the next 16 months. believe it or not, some of it can be yours at gov liquidation.com. there it is. it's like ebay for the department of defense. the site publicly auctions everything from aircraft parts and cranes to vending machines and household appliances. it's made more than $500 million for the department of defense as of 2011. but the drawdown in afghanistan which is the largest pullout in the american history means they'll have a lot more inventory in the coming months. next up, a san diego radio show took to the skies to send a not-so-subtle message to besieged mayor, bob filner. surrender it said. he's refused to resign and now facing a recall effort. the sky writing as an homage to the famous scene from "the wizard of oz." nobody expects a happy outcome in this case. catch this. u.s. senator ted cruz released his birth certificate on sunday to prove to naysayers that he is indeed a natural-born citizen. but according to the "dallas morning news" he may also be a canadian citizen as welt. after consulting with canadian legal scholars the paper reported "born in canada to an american mother, ted cruz became an instant u.s. citizen but under under canadian law he also became a citizen of that country the moment he was born there." unless the texas senator formally renounces his citizenship, he will remain a citizen of both countries. legal experts say, well, that means he could assert the right to vote in canada or even run for parliament up there. while dual citizenship doesn't preclude the senator from becoming president in this country, he's asserting that he's not, he says, a canadian citizen. they say differently. up next, stop and frisk. yes, it's controversial, but does it work? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. the same thi. it's what you love about her. but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your 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said he didn't like stop and frisk but he had a son he wanted to make sure the kid didn't get killed. the only way is to get guns off the streets. this is not just an academic exercise. this is people getting killed and sadly, unfortunately, we all see it again and again and again. it's the same group of people, young minority males and that just devastating that society. we've got to do something about it. >> welcome back to "hardball." talk about a tough subject, that was new york mayor michael bloomberg speaking earlier today making reference to bill thompson, an african-american democrat running for mayor right now who's taking a somewhat moderate position on the city's stop and frisk law. a couple candidates are trying to find the middle. his remarks came today at a press conference where he announced a massive sting operation. it resulted in the largest seizure of guns in new york's history. the shakedown comes as he continues to defend the city's controversial implementation of its stop and frisk program which the mayor argues that's bloomberg has made the city safer by taking guns like these guns they picked up in stop and frisk. a federal judge ruled the tactics were unconstitutionally targeting blacks and minorities in the courts right now. bloomberg was livid when the ruling came out last week. he's filing an appeal and continues to plead his case. not just with new yorkers but obviously the country. in today's "washington post," he spells out in a big editorial plainly stop and frisk is not racial profiling. unlike many cities where wealthy areas get special treatment, the nypd targets its manpower to the areas that suffer the highest crime levels. 90% of all those who commit the murders and other violent crimes are black and hispanic. it is shameful so many elected officials and editorial writers have been largely silent on these facts. when it comes to policing, political correctness is deadly. bill bratton is now an msnbc analyst and eugene robinson is a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. unlike other people, i'm going to try to find the way to good security in this country, people who love our cities, mr. commissioner, who love walking the streets of our cities in nighttime and in day and would like to walk to as many neighborhoods as they could at night without fear of death or mugging or something else. i believe police have a responsibility. i want the honest police officer man or woman, white, black, hispanic, latina or latino to do their job. my question is this, police are not scarecrows and don't just walk around in uniforms and nice hats and do their jobs by simply showing up. they have to take action, pro action to prevent crime. what's an appropriate role for a police officer if he sees people in his sights that he believes are out for trouble. in other words, let's take the example of a gang that has just suffered a hit and he thinks that gang is going out for revenge that night. what's the proper role to prevent that crime? >> you would want it your officers to be cops, what cops are paid to do which is to go in harm's way. if they see something that rises to the level of a suspicion that a crime has been, is, or may be about to be committed, you want them to do something. you don't want them to do as they did in los angeles in 2001 and 2002 prior to my going there as chief of police, drive by and wave. and with the result a significant increase in crime. you want your cops to be assertive and active. but you also want them to be respectful. you want them to be mindful of the law, not break it to enforce it and you want them to in all neighborhoods of the city be the same, not behave differently in a minority neighborhood than you would in a white neighborhood. >> just to stay on that subject, like we do at airports, and i know gene and i have been in many airport situations where it looks hideously stupid. i've said before it's like lords where they expect people in wheelchairs to stand up and walk 30 feet to go through the turnstyle. i go why are they doing this to an older woman? they don't want to be prejudiced to people who look middle eastern. we know that story. but on the streets, would you stop four or five business guys coming out for lunch to see if they're carrying? would you do that in order for the optics? would you do that if you were commissioner of new york today to keep it consistent, as you say? >> you would not want your police officers to do that either absent something that atracks the attention of that individual to the police officer or the police officer attracted to them. and again, the supreme court has basically laid this out with a clear line that you can't go over. that you have to have a reasonable suspicion. and that's defined in the law and defined in -- >> i want gene's reaction to what you've said so far. >> i actually agree with the commissioner that you want police officers to be proactive. i think what the judge said in this case was that this policy, the way the policy is being done in new york, violates equal protection. it's not the same in all the neighborhoods of the city the way the commissioner said it should be. and you know, once you look at the figures, you look what's happened with stop and frisk, there's interesting things that jump out. one thing that jumps out at me, for 2012, 86% of those stopped were black and hispanic. in only 2% of those cases did they find any weapon at all on the person. 2% of the cases in which they frisked. but of the few whites who got frisked, in 4% of those cases they found weapons. that tells me there's something not bright about the way it's being done. that you're actually -- >> what do you think is at work here as a columnist and a person who covers social life in this country, what do you think is the motivation for the police to stop these usually young men, let's be blunt about it, minorities? why are they doing it, to harass them or what? >> i can't look into their minds. i think there's some genuine good police work going on. there's some element i think of keeping a neighborhood under control. look, it doesn't -- that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that it's not done in other neighborhoods and that in fact, the number one thing, the number one offense that gets alleged or charged after stop and frisk is marijuana offenses. so that makes it a victim of crime on wall street but not -- >> i'm with you, my friend, on that. is there any way you can stop and frisk for weapons and leave it at that, mr. commissioner? because it seems to me, we have a general public interest in not having guns on the street. that's why people have problems with stand your ground laws, why people walk around with guns. >> one of the reasons there's been so much resistance to the policies of mayor bloomberg is unfortunately, because of his focus, his well-intended focus on the issue of guns. he has created the impression that the reason that stop and frisk is practiced in new york city is to get guns off the street. that is one of the results, if you will, but stop and frisk is used for everything. if i stop you for a traffic violation, for drinking beer in an open container, it isn't intended to get guns off the street unless you specifically see a gun. the idea is stop and frisk is the basic tool of american policing. and so much of the resistance to what's going on in new york is around the idea that, well, geez, 600,000 stops but only 700 guns, isn't that really overkill, if you will, to get those guns? so it's -- we're talking past each other, unfortunately, on this situation. >> gene? >> yeah, and that's a problem, frankly, of the mayor's creation. the mayor keeps saying it's to get the guns off the street. >> it's not. >> so if he keeps setting that as the bar, people are going to say -- >> it confused me because i thought it was that too. >> that's what he said. i think you can get around the fourth amendment questions of unreasonable search and seizure. i think the 14th amendment questions of equal protection are more difficult, but they're easily solved. would it kill them to stop some white guys. would it kill them? >> i wish we had the technology where a police officer could have a scanner and find out if they're carrying. some day we'll have that. commissioner bratton, thank you sir. it's a decent argument. we're trying to find the truth here. eugene robinson, as always. this is "hardball," the place for politics. too small. too soft. too tasty. [ both laugh ] [ male announcer ] introducing progresso's new creamy alfredo soup. inspired by perfection. i want to remind you again, starting next monday, "hardball" will be on exclusively at 7:00 eastern time. remember, if you want to see us and i do want you to join us, i'll talk about that later, 7:00 is your time for us to share. back in a minute with olympic medalist greg louganis on whether america should boycott the olympics coming up this winter in russia. [ man ] look how beautiful it is. ♪ honey, we need to talk. we do? i took the trash out. i know. and thank you so much for that. i think we should get a medicare supplement insurance plan. right now? 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[ male announcer ] don't wait. call today to request your free decision guide and find the aarp medicare supplement plan to go the distance with you. go long. i've sent a message today to the united states olympic committee, spelling out my own position. that unless the soviets withdraw their troops within a month from afghanistan, that the olympic games be moved from moscow to an alternate site or multiple sites, or postponed or canceled. >> that was president jimmy carton, of course, on nbc's "meet the press" in '80 announcing plans to boycott the summer olympics held that year that summer in moscow unless the soviet union withdrew its troops from afghanistan. carter went through with his promise to boycott. american athletes did not participate in the summer olympic games and the soviets boycotted the summer games in l.a. the cold war is is over. when russia announced itself anti-gay law, applied during the games during this summer, winter, rather, gay rights and human rights activists turned their focus to protesting the 2014 olympics in russia. the law, by the way, allows for the finding and detaining of anyone deemed to, i don't know what this means, to promote homosexuality to children under the age of 18. is boycotting the games the solution? president obama said he's opposed to a boycott. joining me, somebody who ought to know about this, former four time olympic gold medalist greg louganis, a diver. it's great to have you on. by the way -- >> it's great to be on. >> you know how that started? robert kaiser, a great reporter for the "washington post," columnist at the time, wrote a column saying we should boycott the olympics over the invasion of afghanistan. walter mondale, the vice president saw the article that morning, took it to jimmy carter, the president, who i was working for as a speechwriter and said, let's do. i think we have to be careful about these things. your thoughts. you're an athlete. your life, your career, your greatness comes from being able to compete. should we stop our young people from being able to compete because we don't like an ordinance in the russian government we don't like? >> right. >> your thoughts. >> i did compete in the 1976 olympic games in montreal and had that opportunity, silver medalist there. 1980, i was one of the team captains of the 1980 olympic team for our dive team. what we wanted to do is go over there, send one person into the opening ceremonies then all the rest of the athletes stay at home in protest of the soviet union's invasion of afghanistan but still have a presence there. and we had a really strong team. and, you know what, an athlete, an elite athlete has a shelf life. you know, i was fortunate. i was able to continue competing through '84, through '88. and i was on both sides of two boycotts. so i -- you know, i was very blessed in that way. but not all athletes have that opportunity. >> so what's the right way for people, gay and straight in this country, to say we don't like your stupid law? i don't even, by way, i mean, i don't want to be sarcastic about this. i don't know what it means to promote homosexuality. it's nature. you can argue about it. something like an advertising campaign isn't going to change your orientation. >> exactly. >> it seems to me. >> i would be a walking propaganda, myself, personally. i'm a gay man. i'm also hiv positive, but i'm also an athlete, too. so, you know, i'm totally against the -- >> what's the right smart american way to give an -- evolutionary values on this? i must say our values have changed, as you know, personally. so here we are, 20 or 30 years ahead of the russian people. what do we do to get them to catch up? how do we hit them hard or kiss them right way, whatever it takes to get them to change? >> i don't know if we're going to kiss them the right way. i don't know what's that about. >> it's not about anything. go ahead. >> so, but, you know, i think it would be wonderful for our athletes to go over there. you know, gay or straight. you know, and if they're sympathetic to the cause, i mean, because there are other countries involved here. there's denmark, there's the uk, there's sweden. >> how about a black power salutes at the olympics years ago where the black athletes did compete in the track and field but did put their fists up with the gloves on sometimes. >> they did. >> should something like that happen in russia this winter? >> you know, i don't know if it needs to be all that overt, either. i mean, if all our allies were to dedicate their performance to their gay uncles, son, daughters -- >> to make it individual. >> to make it individual because, you know, it personally says a story that they're in support of their gay family. >> we're out of time. you've got the standing to make that proposal. thank you so much for doing it here. greg louganis. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. ask your doctor about the only underarm low t treatment, axiron. let me finish tonight with this. i want to conclude the show tonight with a big ask. starting next monday, that's next monday, "hardball," the show of my dreams, will be on at 7:00 eastern. that's every night monday through friday at 7:00 eastern, not at 5:00. so what my big ask is, that you adjust your evening ritual. believe me i know it's a sweet time of day, to share company with me at 7:00. it's going to be one hour to share our points of view on what's happening in the country. i know from experience and from the political world in which i've lived the importance of asking. you ask to borrow the car from your dad, you ask a girl to a date, you ask someone to marry you. ultimately if you're lucky, you ask. now i'm asking you. i'd really appreciate you to share your time with me starting as soon as possible for you at 7:00. i'll have the news, i'll have the analysis, i'll have my attitude, as we say in philly, my attitude, my passion to make this a better country. with you aboard sharing your good time with me, we're going to keep trying to get it right.
winless. except for three. two of them coming actually in new jersey. here's one look at little egg harbor. it is in the sandy disaster zone. so, some real joy headed to a place that could use it. meanwhile, our linsey davis tracking the latest overnight from another winning location in the state of new jersey. that's where we find her. south brunswick, the place. linsey davis, good morning to you. >> reporter: good morning, josh. this is the super stop 'n shop. things opening up here. we were able to talk to one of the employees not too long ago inside. and he was telling us this isn't normally the place that has lottery frenzy. if you wanted to line up for a powerball ticket, there was no line at all. and while he has no idea who purchased that winning ticket, he's convinced someone just won $5, he's saying. but this guy is convinced, it's one of the regulars. >> we have 58. >> reporter: these six numbers -- >> the number 30. tonight's winning powerball number, 32. >> reporter: this morning have made three people exceptionally rich. overnight lottery officials say three tickets matched those winning digits. two of them at grocery stores at opposite ends of new jersey. the third, in minnesota. employees here at the super stop 'n shop in new brunswick, new jersey, are waking up shocked. >> we play the lottery. and that was it. >> reporter: thanks to an overwhelming frenzy for all that free money, in the hours leading up to wednesday night's drawing, the jackpot swelled by nearly $25 million. up to a whopping $448 million. >> i hope i win. >> reporter: split that three ways, and the person or people holding each of those golden tickets could walk away with nearly $150 million each. that is, at least, before taxes. jackpots this large were once unheard of. now, they seem almost common place. in fact, the largest payouts ever have happened in just the past two years. the record of $656 million jackpot last year. the second-largest, one just three months ago. as for this morning's eye-popping $448 million pot, it will go down as the fourth-largest haul in history. one might imagine, for the lucky people waking up winners, being in fourth place probably still feels pretty good. they also told us that last year they sold a winning $1 million ticket and no one came forward to claim it. somehow, i doubt, josh, that's going to happen this time. >> we'll be on that, if it happens. >> that one guy, i got $5. they're happy. now, though, to the out-of-control wildfire in southern cal, surging in just a few hours to more than 6,000 acres. hundreds have been evacuated. many homes burned. abc's cecilia vega is in southern cal, right now. good morning, cecilia. >> reporter: robin, good morning to you. and look at this, the flames stretch up to the top of that ridge. the difficulty here right now, the erratic nature of these flames. firefighters have struggled to get them under control. the massive fire burned out of control all night long. stretching eight-square miles. >> it was so bad, i thought i was going to die. >> reporter: a raging inferno 85 miles east of los angeles, where home after home went up in flames. >> when i left, i was backing out of my house. and there were flames all around my car. >> reporter: this morning, the fire still rages on, destroying more than 15 structures, forcing more than 1,500 people to evacuate. but not everyone who wanted out could get out. firefighters say the glablaze blocked the highway escape route. >> it was pretty scary. >> reporter: this inferno called the silver fire, exploded quickly. starting at 2:00 in the afternoon. in just four hours, it spanned more than 5,000 acres. hundreds of firefighters raced to battle back flames any way they could. navigating their way up steep hills and through the air, d.c.-10 tankers and helicopters. >> it's going to be a long night out here. we'll have night-flying aircraft assisting us. >> reporter: two firefighters were hurt. so was a civilian who was air-lifted to the hospital. as the sun rises, new challenges of wind, dry conditions and dangerously steep terrain. and the hope out here is that crews will be able to gain ground in the early morning hours during these cooler temperatures. but it is very windy out here right now, robin. so many people waking up this morning, hoping their home survived. >> absolutely. that wind not helping. always surprising how quickly it can spread like that. now, to abc's amy robach with the other top stories this morning. good morning, amy. >> good morning, everyone. we begin with breaking news from dallas. a deadly shooting rampage. police say a man entered a home, opened fire and took off to a second location in the suburb of desoto, where an explosive device was then reported. ryan owens is there with the very latest. ryan, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, to you, amy. an extremely violent overnight here in texas. eight people shot, four of them kimmed. two of the fatalities were found in the suburban home behind me. that's where police say the gunman murdered his ex-girlfriend after he apparently first tossed some sort of explosive device in there. we're told when police arrived, the suspect actually pretended to be among the injured. police have identified that suspect as erby bowser. he is at the police department now. before he got to this home, he stopped at another home in south dallas, where he thought his ex-girlfriend was. she wasn't there. but that did not stop him from shooting four people, killing two. among the injured this morning, amy, a 13-year-old and 11-year-old boy. >> what a sad, sad story. ryan owens. thank you so much. a terrifying scene at a fair in minnesota, after a rodeo bull broke loose. a family with young children, as you might imagine, running for their lives. 8 people were injured when a 1,200-pound bull escaped its pen. it was on the run for 15 minutes before it was finally and thankfully captured. overnight, we learned another major bank, jpmorgan chase, is facing criminal charges stemming from the financial crisis. the bank confirming that the government is investigating its sale of mortgage-backed securities. it comes one day after we learned the government is suing bank of america. and crash tests this morning show your new car might not protect you in an accident as well as you might think. of 12 small cars tested, only the honda civic earned the top safety rating. and half of the cars tested, were rated marginal or poor. police in new jersey say two thieves who posed as golfers, may have been targeting country clubs from florida to massachusetts in recent weeks. they say the men made off with thousands of dollars in cash and credit cards, after hitting three new jersey clubs. they were arrested after allegedly targeting the locker room of another exclusive club last month. and finally, a little -- trying to get mom's attention. that's what happened with this bear. he was trying to get up on that jet ski. he was trying to distract mom who was interested in eating a fish. when she didn't share her share, he was on the jet ski to go catch his own. hopefully didn't leave the keys. that might have been funny. or a man in a bear suit. >> thank you, amy. we're going to turn, now, to the growing freeze between the united states and russia. a possible new chapter of a cold war heating up. we're learning this morning it was president obama himself who canceled his summit meeting with vladimir putin, saying it just wasn't worth it. and abc's jonathan karl is in washington with the very latest here. jon, good morning to you. >> reporter: good morning, josh. well, the president's decision to cancel that summit with vladimir putin comes as u.s./russian relations are at their frostiest since the cold war. they clashed over syria. now, the relationship is even worse. the last time a u.s. president canceled a planned meeting in russia was 1960, the height of the cold war, before even the cuban missile crisis. putin has carefully crafted his image as a russian strongman. showing off his physique on horseback, dominating foes in the hockey rink and on the judo mat. and just last month, some mighty big fish. even perfected the art of the icy stare. >> that seems to be his preferred style in press conferences. sitting back and not looking too excited. >> reporter: in cancelling the moscow summit, the white house cited not only the decision to grant asylum to edward snowden. but also, a long list of grievances, from human rights to global security. >> we're not afraid to state clearly where we have disagreements. >> reporter: another cloud over the russian relationship, is the country's recently passed homophobic law, that outlaws talking about homosexuality in front of children. or displaying a rainbow flag in public. that has some suggesting there should be a boycott of the upcoming winter olympics in sochi, russia. >> if russia wants to uphold the olympic spirit, every judgment should be made on the track or in the swimming pool or on the balance beam. people's sexual orientation. >> it is the winter olympics that are coming up in russia. but his point was clear. as chilly as relations here are with russia, nobody at the white house is suggesting that an olympic boycott should be considered. that's just not on the table. >> all right, jon. thanks so much. now, to the court-martial of ft. hood shooter, major nadel hasan. his lawyers asked him to be removed from active participation in the case. dan abrams joins us now. they say it's unethical to assist him. >> they say if he's not going to try to avoid the death penalty, we can't continue being part of this defense. meaning, he hasn't been cross-examining witnesses. he admits he's the shooter here. they say he's trying to get the death penalty. if that's the case, we don't want to be involved. in all likelihood, the judge is going to instruct them to continue advising. they're sitting on the sidelines. they're giving him basic advice on the law. and i would suspect that the judge will talk to him, talk to them and eventually say, let's continue this trial. but mr. hasan, remember, that if you cross any lines, i might put them in and force them to defend you, even though you don't want it. >> the judge cautious. doesn't want anything to be appealed later. this trial has cost the u.s. government $5 million. he is flown in by helicopter to come to court. and he's admitted guilt. and many people want to know why is there even a trial? >> and he tried to plead guilty in connection with this case. except, when you talk about a court-martial and the death penalty's on the table, you can't plead guilty. one of the questions here is, what will be the sentence? guilt is another question. but the process has to move forward. and you are exactly right, that the big concern is, this judge does not want this verdict appealed later, as many death penalty verdicts have been in court-martials. >> we'll see where it goes from here. dan, thanks very much. we're going to turn to the international manhunt under way at this hour for a suspected killer and kidnapper on the run. you see him here. a san diego man accused of abducting a teenage girl, killing her mother, possibly her younger brother, as well. and then, setting their home on fire. abc's brandi hitt joins us from los angeles, with the very latest. good morning, brandi. >> reporter: overnight, the amber alert for the missing teen expanded after someone spotted a car that may be the suspect's. in an exclusive interview with abc news, his sister says police are searching for the wrong man. >> here's a picture of our suspect. >> reporter: this morning, a possible sighting in the international manhunt for 40-year-old james dimaggio. the man police believe kidnapped 16-year-old hannah anderson, after allegedly torching this house and killing her mother inside. overnight, police said someone in oregon spotted a car matching the description of the one they believe dimaggio is driving. earlier wednesday, investigators had expanded their search to include mexico and canada. overnight, issued new amber alerts in oregon, washington and nevada. >> she was the kindest, sweetest soul that you could ever imagine meeting. and completely incapable of hurting anyone. >> reporter: in an exclusive interview with abc news, dimaggio's sister, laura, described his close friendship with the andersons. and believe he, too, is the victim of foul play. amid the ashes of dimaggio's home, detectives found the unidentified remains of a child. close friends believe it's hannah's 8-year-old brother, etha >> he tried to take care of those kids. and he took care of them as if they were his own. >> reporter: in fact, friends say the children knew dimaggio as uncle jim. but that recently, hannah voiced concerns. >> i know hannah did say she was a little creeped out when jim did tell her that he had a crush on her. >> reporter: authorities won't comment on possible motives in this case. but after speaking with detectives, hannah's father made this desperate plea to dimaggio. >> i'm begging you to let my daughter go. you've taken everything else. hannah, if you have a chance, you take it. you run. >> reporter: laura dimaggio told me her heart goes out for the anderson family. and she's praying for them, as for the safe return of her brother. >> thank you. now, to a theft caught on camera. the brazen thief, stealing a package, right off a man's front porch in broad daylight. but the victim did not go quietly, even having a little fun at the crook's expense. john muller has the story. >> reporter: this tall blonde talk the package off the porch. >> she looked around. grabbed the package and scurried off in the distance. looked like sasquatch darting off in the forest. >> reporter: the arizona man said he had no choice but to take justice into his own hands. >> she took the safety from my home. that's something that amazon can't ship out. >> reporter: the 21-year-old said he wasn't satisfied just filing a police report. he became the village male vigilante, crafting this wanted poster. warning maybes to beware of unique features. >> her height is about ya tall. >> reporter: the e-mail account he collected was bombarded. >> no leads. i've gotten marriage proposals. a couple weird political rant ps. >> reporter: this blonde bandit is the latest in a series of nationwide porch pilferers. stealing from shrubbery to holiday gifts. as for lake, not only is he enjoying this hunt, he may have gotten the last laugh. inside that box -- >> a couple dozen cups and a couple ice trays. >> worth a whopping total of 22 bucks. >> the hunter has become the hunted because i will find her. >> reporter: for "good morning america," john muller, abc news, new york. >> he means business. he will find her. >> i know. let's get a check of the weather with sam. sam, i was telling you, for the day yesterday, the amount of rain in the afternoon was unbelievable. i've never seen it like that. >> flood watches are now issued for ohio, west virginia and k kentuc kentucky. this rain is unlike anything i've ever seen. we're going to show you pictures out of waynesville, missouri. 17 inches of rain in parts of missouri since the weekend. new information from emergency managed in hollister, new jersey. even businesses and homes that were previously safe during other flash flooding events were in the middle of water they couldn't get out of. so, this is a real issue. it's going to continue today. and look at this. the bull's eye for more rain, kansas city, branson, missouri. it's all in that same area. the folks who can't take anymore rain are getting it. the rain from washington, into boston today. new york city, you're part of that. part of the rainy time until we clear that front of the area. we'll talk about heat. we have a lot to talk about in the next half hour. >> good morning, washington. we've got a warm and muggy start here on this thursday morning. 76 is our temperature. we've had heavy showers and thundershowers moving through northern parts of maryland last evening. this morning we're dry but things will change this afternoon. showers and thunderstorms will be more likely. we will see some peaks of sunshine especially midday, high between >> one thing you don't need in the west where it's so dry, is more strong winds. we'll talk about that and fire danger in the next half hour. coming up, usher speaking out after his 5-year-old son almost drowned in the family pool. his custody battle with his ex-wife heating up now. also, vanished. a desperate search for a public defender gone missing in california after a mysterious phone call that she received at home. and battle of the action superstars. why sylvester stallone is publicly going after bruce willis right now. >> wow. and beyonce, a brand-new look. a blockbuster change. we'll have it all. we'll reveal the pictures of her look, when we come back on "good 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"the democratic party of virginia sponsored this adad." ken cuccinelli is on a mission. he wants to overturn roe v. wade, in virginia, to make all abortions illegal. cuccinelli even tried to bully the state board of health to get his way. the virginian-pilot said "the consequences of such a politically motivated precedent could be significant." cuccinelli's war on abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. ken cuccinelli. he's focused on his own agenda. not us. >> good morning. as we told you, three people are in police custody after a shooting in southeast washington. that shooting sent a juvenile to the hospital with nonlife threatening injuries. at a separate scene someone fired an ak-47. the weapon was recovered but the suspect got away. also in southeast investigators are looking for what started an apartment fire that sent six people to the hospital. that fire began around 12:30 this morning in the 2800 block of denver street. we'll have an in-depth report coming up. let's take a look at traffic. northbound has been having problems. we'll take a live shot where you can see current conditions. left lane closed and that is right there as you come past triangle on 95 stacking up very, very quickly. you can see some right shoulder activity if you look further back. we also have gotten an estimated drive time about 19 minutes. that is improving from woodbridge into the beltway. earlier accident on 395 is cleared. right shoulder activity near edsle. 295 stacking up due to an earlier incident. new crash reported at laboratory southbound. >> busy morning. we'll have a busy afternoon in the weather department. waking up to quiet conditions. very warm. cloudy skies feels muggy and a cold front approaching from the west will help to trigger some showers and thunderstorms that will put heavy downpours. we'll have breaks in the crowds. sunshine midday high 84-88. on and off storms through the weekend. >> thank you for watching. ♪ look how flexible stephen colbert is. so many celebrities joining in. a retaliation against one of the hottest bands on the planet. >> i love his moves. >> he has the moves. how dare they cancel on him? he debuted his own music video of their hit song. and we go inside -- is that matt damon back there? inside this sensational -- >> flexible. >> and who is not in that video? that song stays with you. we'll have the latest this morning, superstar usher, he's speaking out for the first time since his 5-year-old son's terrifying accident. we'll have an update on the sun's condition. also on the custody battle with his ex-wife that's re-ignited. also ahead, the disappearance of an investigator in a public defender's office. and a mysterious phone call she received just before she vanished. i'll tell you something else that's baffling. there's a public battle going on between "die hard" and "rambo." there's words being thrown around like lazy, greedy. >> they're the new smurfs. >> lazy smurf and greedy smurf. >> we're going to find out what this battle's all about. we're going to turn to the latest on usher. the superstar speaking out. his 5-year-old son still in the hospital this morning, recovering after nearly drowning in the family pool. this accident has re-ignited the bitter custody battle with usher and his ex-wife. steve osunsami is in atlanta with the latest. good morning, steve. >> reporter: good morning, josh. at one point, this child was under heavy sedation. but his family says he is up and recovering. this morning, usher raymond is speaking out for the first time about his son's near-drowning. writing in a statement that, i am blessed and fortunate to say that my son, usher v is doing well and is recovering. i'm overwhelmed by the outpouring of prayer, love and support for my family's well-being. >> my nephew was in the pool. and he went in. and i couldn't get him. >> reporter: there was this frantic 911 call, placed by the singer's aunt, rena oden, who is out of breath. she was baby sitting monday afternoon, when the boy went under and didn't come back up. >> the ambulance is here. >> reporter: the first responders who answered that call, tell us they believe that usher v was trapped under water for at least two minutes before two contractors who were working inside the home were able to free his hand from a drain at the bottom of the pool and then save his life, giving cpr. overnight, usher's ex-wife, tameka raymond, tweeted, i'm happy my son is doing better, talking and asking for food. she didn't waste a moment, calling her lawyer. finally, this request, the day after the accident, challenging her ex-husband's custody of their two children. >> miss raymond would prefer to parent her children rather than nannies or third parties. >> reporter: she made similar arguments at a custody hearing last near, where she lost. >> he's traipsing in with his girlfriend. >> reporter: in court, usher fought back and said his ex-wife was unstable and threatened to kill him. but he never called police. >> i didn't want the boys to know that their father put their mother in jail. >> reporter: since then, the grammy award-winning singer has been sharing with the world the joys of his fatherhood. posting these pictures on facebook the day before the accident. and telling robin last summer, he loves being with his children. >> it's taking the time to actively be there. it's a day-in/day-out process. >> reporter: in interviews, usher said most of the heat he's taking from his ex-wife is drama, that comes from being a celebrity. that emergency hearing is scheduled for friday at 2:00 p.m. josh? >> thank you for that, steve. we're going to bring back dan abrams, our chief legal affairs anchor. you hate to look at things like this and think of words like leverage. but usher's ex-wife has leverage for the children. >> you don't change custody because something horrible happened. what she's saying is this is more than that. she's saying this has been a substantial change in the circumstances, more broadly, since the initial custody ruling. she says that the caretakers who are there, are a problem. she says that usher's not around. that he's traveling too much. that the kids are going to school too far away. so, she's bringing up a lot of the same arguments that she brought up and lost on earlier. but now, inserting in what happened here, and saying, this is further proof of the problem, in particular, with child care. >> lots to prove here. is there any risk for her, then, in seeking a custody hearing so soon after the fact? >> when you're deciding custody everything comes into play. you're talking about what's in the best interest of the child. and so, how the litigation moves forward matters. how they deal with each other when they're fighting matters. i'll bet you will hear from usher's attorney saying, oh, so the first thing she does, the very first thing she does, is go back to court, rather than first worry about the safety of our child. >> okay. most important thing that matters, the health of usher v. robin? now, to the mysterious disappearance of a mother in oakland, california. she's an investigator in the public defenders office, working on death row cases. and she has been missing since sunday. after receiving a mysterious phone call. abc's gio benitez has that story for us. >> reporter: this morning in california's bay area, a desperate search for 50-year-old sandra coke, the ivy league grad and investigator for the public defender's office, disappeared sunday. for weeks, coke had been looking for her beloved dog, ginny, who disappeared after someone broke into her home in may. she offered $1,000 reward on missing posters. people called in tips. but they went nowhere. then, over the weekend, a new lead. >> she told her daughter she was going out to meet someone who might have information about her dog. >> reporter: her family says she left the house to meet the caller but never came back. >> there's no way that sandra would go out at 7:00 and be gone for more than a half hour. >> reporter: coke's daughter, just 15 years old, tracked her mom's work and personal phones using a gps app. >> it was still there, sending a signal the next morning. >> both apparently had been dumped. one on a richmond, california, highway, the other near oakland. police found coke's car two miles from her home. >> it's especially upsetting to think that she might be in danger and that there is foul play here. >> reporter: on wednesday, investigators took bags of evidence from coke's home, including her laptop computers, hoping to find clues. they won't say coke's work, win release on death row, or the search for her missing dog, has anything to do with her disappearance. >> she's a very special person. very unusually kind and generous and big-hearted. >> reporter: coke's family and friends are vowing to keep searching until they found her. for "good morning america," gio benitez, abc news, new york. >> we join her family and friends in hopes that it's going to happen. >> amen. sam? >> let's get to the boards. we have a lot to talk about here. in the west, we barely touched on this. this area of high pressure that's inland and the low that's moving in. the basic thing you need to know about what happens here, is it's a dry and windy pattern. winds not good for the fire situation that's there. in the northeast, we look at the rain, moving from philly to boston. it's a slow-moving front that will slow down and give an opportunity for two to three inches of rain between now and midday on saturday, before the front clears the area. here's where the thunderstorms are popping today. oklahoma city, wichita, in the bull's eye there. amarillo and lubbock. a look at the big board. we have a few scattered showers here. all of the heat is in the deep outh. >> a little bit more like august around here as our temperatures gradually warm up. waking up to 76 degrees in d.c. good morning. we've a southerly wind. afternoon showers and thunderstorm >> all that weather was brought to you by purina. we're keeping up on the flooding in missouri and more rain coming in. coming up, a very public feud between two of hollywood's biggest stars. why is sylvester stallone calling bruce willis greedy and lazy? and should restaurants ban children during dinner hours if they're behaving badly? what happened after one restaurant changed their policy. come on back and find out. ♪ ♪ i've got something for you too. 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[ female announcer ] neutrogena® makeup remover. back at 7:42, with two of hollywood's legendary action stars in a heated war of words. sylvester stallone slamming bruce willis, after a dispute of their blockbuster story. linzie janis has the story. >> reporter: it's the clash of the action heroes. sylvester stallone, versus bruce willis. >> it's a party time. >> reporter: the testosterone spilling off the silver screen and into an online brawl. >> happy trails, hans. >> reporter: the rocky star throwing verbal punches after revealing that willis will not be riding shotgun in "expendibles 3." >> the guy that pulls the strings. and everyone else does your dirty work. >> reporter: willis will be replaced by 71-year-old indiana jones star, harrison ford. a decision that apparently pleased sly. in a twitter smackdown, he implies willis is getting what he deserves. second later, he writes, greedy and lazy. >> no one is saying what the exact reason is. stallone made reference to being greedy. bruce willis probably asked for more money. and they weren't willing to give it to him. >> reporter: some believe that stallone's tweet was more like the action of a teenage girl, than a butt-kicking hero. >> i'm not surprised that sylvester stallone has frustrations. imsurprised he went public with it. it's rare you see something like that so aggressive on twitter. >> reporter: nobody is expecting the "die hard" star to go down without a fight. >> yippee-ki-yay. >> reporter: for "good morning america," linzie janis, abc news, new york. >> yippee-ki-yay, indeed. the two, "expendables" movies have taken in $60 million worldwide. coming up, beyonce, revealing a dramatic chae to her signature look. we'll show you the new pictures she posted, just ahead. and "the play of the day." who among us -- oh. >> what? morning. it's usually defined by the sum of its parts. but a good morning -- that's usually defined by you. bailey's coffee creamers. so deliciously creamy, so good, they can only be bailey's. introducing three new flavors from bailey's coffee creamers. mudslide, white chocolate raspberry swirl, and vanilla brown sugar. to help pay for the road trip... before they earned 1% back on all purchases -- everywhere, every time -- and 2% back at the grocery store... even before earning 3% back on gas, with no hoops to jump through... the garcias hit the road with their bankamericard cash rewards credit card and shortened the distance between each other. that's the majesty of rewarding connections. apply online or at a bank of america near you. just to tell you our products get the job done. instead, we give you a free red robin kids meal or appetizer, like towering onion rings, when you join scott shared values. sign up at scottbrand.com. ooh, hot...hot, hot! feel like you're growing older... waiting to look younger? don't wait. 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"the democratic party of virginia sponsored this ." ken cuccinelli is on a mission. he wants to overturn roe v. wade, in virginia, to make all abortions illegal. cuccinelli even tried to bully the state board of health to get his way. the virginian-pilot said "the consequences of such a politically motivated precedent could be significant." cuccinelli's war on abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. ken cuccinelli. he's focused on his own agenda. nonot us. two years. >> wow. >> "steals" and lenny kravitz to come, right here. >> good morning. we've got some break news out of the national zoo. this is a live image of the tiger cam because the zoo just announced that two tiger cubs were born there this week. you can see them there on your screen. the zoo keepers say they appear to be healthy. and they're critically endangered in the wild so these are being called a conservation success. great to see. three tickets match the winning numbers in that $448 million jackpot. two were sold in new jersey, one in minnesota. wednesday's jackpot was the third largest of all time. tickets worth $1 million were sold in 16 states including virginia and maryland. let's talk traffic now for that we check in with amanda. >> it is jammed if you're ming up 95 northward we've got an accident. the left side is crowded and the left lane is closed as well. you have some activity estimated drive time showing it's taking about 51 minutes to get between there and the quantico area. 270 heavy. >> we've got cloudy skies this morning some breaks here and there, 76 degrees, warm and muggy today. we had showers move through last even bug this morning things are dry and we'll stay through the middle of the day. in the afternoon, showererses more likely. heavy rain tomorrow as well. >> all right. thank you for watching. we'll have another update around 8:27. have a great thursday. ♪ hour three of this song on an endless loop at home. look at our enthusiastic -- a crowd we're lucky enough to have, joining us here in times square. stephen colbert, a lot of buzz this morning, as the music video dropped on his show. a whole lot of cameos. relegating daft punk for cancelling on him. all an act? or, "d," all of the above. it's terrific. >> wait until you see more of it. it's a story dividing a lot of parents. should restaurants be allowed to ban children during dinner hours? what happened after one restaurant tried it. >> i know. we worked it out at the desk. we have easy ways to improve your kitchen starting this weekend. we have the stars of the hit show "property brothers." improve this. >> one clue would be a wine bar in the kitchen is always an improvement. i saw that from what we just showed. and you can travel with it. great "deals & steals." because of heading back to school. everything you need to get back to school, $20 or less. we can do that, with that lady right there. >> you were fine saying back-to-school. you get a fine. it's a little too early. >> oh. >> i think it's the most wonderful time of the year as a parent. i don't know. sorry. how about some news? >> how about it? we're going to turn to breaking stories overnight. the first one, a raging fire just west of palm springs, california. the wildfire burned out of control all night. it scorched nine-square miles and is burning down more than a dozen homes at this hour. 1,500 people have been forced to e vvac evacuate. that number would be higher, but the flames cut off an escape route. a shooting spree in the dallas area. police say the suspected gunman, who is now in custody, was trying to kill a former girlfriend when he opened fire inside two homes. he killed four people and left several others injured, including two children, before eventually being arrested. police say the suspect pretended initially to be among the victims. three winning tickets were sold for last night's megapowerball jackpot. two of them sold in new jersey. the other in minnesota. the winners will have to split the $448 million prize. that means they each get nearly 150 million bucks before taxes. not bad. yeah. i'll take it. the pressure is going for san diego's mayor to step down with more than a dozen women now accusing him of sexual harassment. two veterans are the latest to come foerld. one claiming filner touched her inappropriately. the other claiming he went her a suggestive voicemail. mayor bob filner is currently in therapy. harvard researchers found older adults who drink two cups of cocoa per day, enjoy a 30% boost in short-term memory. antioxidants improve blood flow to the brain. you may have noticed the price of bacon is on the rise. prices have hit an all-time high, because of a mystery park virus spreading to farms. prices are about 15% higher than last year. finally, the big one that did not get away. look in the water, at the end of the line, is a 9-foot, 920-pound blue fin tuna. it took three men three full hours to reel it in. one said it was so powerful, it nearly ripped out his shoulder. the monster fish -- look at that. was sold for $4,000. that is a fish tale. >> that's a real one. thank you, amy. >> wow. top that in "pop news." >> i'll do my best, robin. we begin with beyonce and her new look. so many people clicking on to these pictures she posted on instagram, debuting the brand-new blonde pixie. not sure if she exited to the shorter look by cutting it or if it's a fabulous wig. but it does look fantastic. and she doesn't have to worry about her hair getting caught in the fan on stage. we reported that. all good there. beyonce, keep those pictures coming. also in "bop news" this morning. have you heard about the pretzel bacon cheeseburger? >> yes. >> you have? apparently, it's really good. like really, really good. the company says that one product has pushed sales to a nine-year high. they call it the best new product introduction in the last ten years. and it's made them the brightest performer in the fast food sector of wall street this year. >> wow. >> there's a lot of ads for it. you can't turn on tv without seeing it. >> i want one right now. they should just wheel some in. >> i think so, too. >> usually, that's the cue. the cue to bring them in. >> we're like -- >> any shot? >> is the food fairy coming today? and finally in "pop news," it's thursday. that means it's time for your donkey duet. it's true. go ahead. ♪ a trumpet, player, making beautiful music. just watch. ♪ if you close your eyes, it sounds like chewbacca in concert. and it has gone viral. we thank you. it makes you smile. it does. >> i'm heading off on vacation, as you know. that's -- >> did i mention that? >> going away, huh? >> i'm about 20 minutes away, more like it. it's going to be great weather, sam. >> you will have great weather. we have issues right now. we were trying to get pictures. if you have pictures in the nashville area, tweet them to us. we have flood watches going out right now. all of that is expanded. there's a lot of tough rain through the area. we start with a dallas live shot. and the heat is on through a good part of the state of texas and has been. it's one of the few places to continue with the heat. the heat index levels will climb above that 100-mark. look at dallas, feeling like it's about 108 and a little warmer than that in the dallas area. we get into where the cooler air is. and also, all of that rain. we look at des moines and points south of that. southern missouri, into tennessee, a little bit of ohio right now. a big area of concern for the rainfall totals. remember, folks, when you see water puddling in the streets. this is not normal rainfall. this is the kind of rain, you get an inch an hour, two inches an hour. this is flooding. it takes two feet of water to move your car out of the way. >> we'll see rain around here but not until after the noon hour. cloudy skies this morning. a cold front approaching from the west. moisture pumping in from the south. these two coming together will trigter scattered showers and thundershowers into the evening hours. so we continue this on and off wet pattern. we'll stay warmer today. breaks in the clouds. highs in the mid to upper 80s. we'll see heavy rain at times but >> more of america's weather in the next half hour. including all of the pictures you're now sending in from nashville. we appreciate it. "gma morning menu." coming up on ""gma," stephen colbert and the video going viral right now. we've also got school "deals & steals." everything you need for $20 or less, thanks to tory johnson. and the stars of hgtv's "property brothers" are here with great do-it-yourself tips for improving your kitchen. and sam says beyond. all that and lenny kravitz here, on "good morning america." it starts with something little, like taking a first step. and then another. and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support and an end to alzheimer's disease. and that? that would be big. grab your friends and family and start a team today. register at alz.org for shopping that took half e the time. converse, skechers, nike, and more at famous footwear. victory is yours. ♪ [ female announcer ] nothing gets you going quite like the power of quaker oats. today is going to be epic. quaker up. your life is a game of chance. chronic migraine, today is going to be epic. but what if the odds could be in your favor? 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>> i think a flatout ban of children in restaurants is way too far. it's way too extreme. >> sometimes it's parents that want to get away from their kids. and they have a date night and there's kids running around. it's a no-win situation. >> reporter: mcduff's not the first to ban kids. at la fisheria restaurant, they live by the no 7 by 7:00 p.m. rule. while it may be leaving a bad taste in some people's mouths, for others, it's their favorite off the menu edition. for "good morning america," rebecca jarvis, abc news, new york. >> and the discussion -- >> i take my kids out to dinner a lot, living here in the city. but they behave badly, we leave. and i think it's okay, to say kids don't belong in this restaurant. there's certain atmospheres that kid disrupts. >> it's the family's but not the restaurant's responsibility. >> the parents not paying attention to their kids is they're not going to pay attention to the kids and make the situation better. everyone needs to remember that everyone in the restaurant has a right to have a wonderful meal and a wonderful time. and they're all paying for it. if you want your kids to behave, if you let them run around, let them run around at home. >> a lot of people, i do want to say, torrid of criticism poured in. a posting on facebook. i love how you state we're a family restaurant. just don't bring your family. >> bring your well-behaved family. so that everybody can enjoy. >> oh, sam. >> i was raised by a marine corps colonel, ladies and gentlemen. if i did something wrong in a restaurant -- >> there has to be order. there has to be discipline. >> weigh in. you know our thoughts. stephen colbert is scorching the "gma" heat index this morning, with his version of the daft punk song, "get lucky," going viral, when the band supposedly canceled on colbert. he retaliated with a bunch of his celeb friends to shoot their own video of the song. dan harris has the story. watch it, folks. >> i've been daft punk'd. >> reporter: stevphen colbert calling out mtv, for forcing his scheduled guest not to appear on his show. >> nobody told me until 2:00 yesterday. ♪ she's up all night till the sun ♪ ♪ i'm up all night to get some ♪ >> reporter: colbert said the duo, canceled at the last minute, for contractual obligations on the mtv video awards. these. >> these draft punk guys are french. they're not into exclusive relationships. i thought we could have a manage-a-show. maybe we could do it both. >> reporter: colbert brought on ashton kutcher, who had the show "punk'd." >> crazy. you're the greatest. >> reporter: and with that, colbert launched into his own music video version of "get lucky." featuring everybody from jeff idges >> jf brges. ♪ >> reporter: to bryan cranston on roller skates. to matt damond. to henry kissen justicer. >> security? >> reporter: this may look like a real beef of sorts, keep in mind, comedy central is part of mtv network. >> it's a brilliant sort of publicity move. just combining their forces. it kind of has all the ingredients that you need for -- you know, for a viral campaign. >> reporter: overnight, after all the worldwide attention -- >> let's get straight to the top story tonight. me. >> reporter: colbert admitting the stunt was more about promotion than emotion. >> busted. and now that i've come clean, i can just do what i love. promote the vmas. once again, the vmas will appear on the oprah winfrey network, september 5th, at 3:00 a.m., following the premiere of "his recollectny horrors" with host, lieu diamond phillips. set your vcrs. >> reporter: for "good morning america," dan harris, abc news, new york. >> sam's dancing right now. >> we tried this. not comfortable. i have a little pain in the hip. >> nice job, though. nice. >> you're going to hurt yourself. >> good stuff. good stuff. >> i'm still crying. we have another hot topic burning up the "gma heat index." kelly cutrone was speaking out about ultrathin models, giving her take on the real reason they're so popular. abc's linsey davis has the story. >> reporter: the fashion industry is constantly under fire for sending models that appear to be stick figures down the runway. >> very condescending and rude. >> reporter: now, one of fashion's major insiders is speaking out. the no nonsense publisher and judge of "america's next top model" kelly cutrone, says society needs to blame itself. >> we like to think of ourselves as a modern society, america. but we have very narrow-minded beliefs about what is beautiful. my take on it is that american women want to see thin models. if the public thought that 400-pound purple people were attractive, fashion people would be the first person there to make the garment. >> reporter: when they saw the real women campaign, they saw the sales go up. >> it was a shock. having a real woman campaign was saying, like, we're doing green people for halloween. people were checking it out and talking about it. >> reporter: some of the big campaigns in the fashion industry appear to be expanding their lines along with the waistlines. h&m has a plus-size model for one of its ad campaigns pep and high-end designers, like michael kors and calvin klein are making plus-sized pieces for their lines. do you think the fashion industry is starting to embrace the larger size woman now? >> i think they will throw a bone to the media. i think the fashion industry is behind. there's not enough diversity in ethnicity in models, anywhere in america. >> reporter: if the public thinks her words seem a little too cutting -- >> i think you need to put some gratitude in your attitude, girl. >> reporter: the fashion phenom says she's not sorry for calling the cat catwalk the way she sees it. >> am i stutough because i say that? am i going to tell the truth? yes. is it my opinion? yes. >> reporter: for "good m mornin america," linsey davis, c news, new york. >> "america's next top model" airs fridays on the c.w. sam and josh, out to you guys. >> thank you, amy. oh, yeah. and the "deals & steals." >> logon, gma.com on yahoo! and this is the back-to-school edition. >> 20 bucks and under, means it's really going to go. >> let's get started. >> these are seen on celebrity kids. how cool are these? so super cool. this is called the anybodiey er will nibbler. and you have the pencil case. northerlially, these things range from -- >> i'm rocking this. >> $15 to $48. but big savings for you. more than 50% off. $7.50 to 20 bucks. >> you can't afford not to buy that. >> there you go. very fun. all right. water bottles. the kids will drink the water and they're stuck carrying around a bottle. these are vapor. it's the anti-water bottle. you can fold it up. it will clip on to a backpack. all made in america. you are a kid anyway. these come in -- these come in sets of three and four, depending on what you choose. normally, $24 for the pack. but slashed by more than half, $10 to 12 bucks. shock up. >> hydrate enough. up next -- >> these are our -- these are from meg. these were inspired by sarah jessica parker's win girls. you get three individual packs. you're getting 15 hair titles in total. normally, for all three packs, 36 bucks. these are slashed in half, $17. hello sarina. >> one of the fashion things that all kids are going to have when they're headed back to school. make sure you're loaded up with them. >> up next, tory -- >> so, you've got one direction. but what's really cool about these is they have holes that it will fit into a binder for kids. the mom's manager calendar. you can do like a family calendar, school days. thousands of options to choose from on calendars.com. when you go to "gma" and we link you up and you get the code, you're going to save big. the assortment ranges from $2 to little calendars to $40. these are all slashed in half. starting at $1. $1 to $20. >> were you using your pda to keep up with things. it's nice to have one big clander in the kitchen. >> speaking of drawing, we got -- this is one that you can draw on that says keep calm and -- blank. >> carry on. isn't that the way it goes. >> there's a blank. you get to write your own thing on it. there's these designs up here. a cute assortment. one of my favorites is a big mat. and there's no -- there you go. hello, sarina. normally $15 to $36, slashed in half to $7.50. >> i don't know how you do it. "deals & steals." can you help me with my backpack? goodmorningamerica.com on yahoo! coming up, the property brothers. >> good morning. d.c. ambulances could use some cpr. the washington times reports nearly three quarters of the fire department's ambulances were pulled for repairs during the july heat weave. most were brought on by failing air conditioning units. 14 of the ambulances were still off the streets for repair. finally getting a look at the goats brought in to remove weeds the animals eat the plants that can kill trees. the goats are also cheaper than pest sides. amanda has a check on that thursday morning commute. >> it is a mess on 95 northward still. we've had problems all morning long. this is going to be coming in to the triangle area. you can see the left lane is closed. that's an improvement. there's only a couple cars left. but miles of delays. we have an estimated drive time leading into the springfield interchange, 91 minutes. and then we've got a new crash. they're doing some repairs to overhead signs due to a crash that did some damage there northward after i-07. it is completely blocked northward. >> getting a little brighter out there. getting some breaks in the clouds. 77 degrees starting to warm up as well. it's going to be warm and muggy, especially the areas that get the pockets of sunshine. the showers came through last night but we'll see another round this afternoon and evening. highs today in the mid to upper 80s. rain likely tomorrow as well but less frequent into the weekend. >> thank you for watching. we'll have another update around 8:56 this morning. have a great day. oh, i love that. >> there it is. >> wow. >> there's that music. >> it does look like a shark is circling the crowd there, outside of times square. we have really enjoyed ourselves. >> it's coming. >> no. >> it's not that shark. >> that shark's sleeping. >> oh. >> oh, no. >> you're in a bikini? >> that's lara. >> did that just happen? >> it spit sam out. >> what was the second to last one that time? in case you haven't been with us all week long, it's been shark week. you don't want to talk about this when you're about to head to hawaii. >> have a great trip. >> yeah. but this -- >> honestly, we have been talking about sharks have really become part of our pop culture. people are obsessed. so many millions tuning in to discovery channel for shark week. thinking about it, all of the fascination started in 1975, with the classic movie, "jaws." it made steven spielberg a household name. everyone was afraid to go back in the water. i hadn't seen it for a long time. i grabbed the tape. i popped it back in the vcr. i spotted a scene that i'm pretty sure i never noticed before. >> what was it? >> you have to check it out. check it out. >> just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water. one terrifyiying shark. one community on-edge. >> shark. >> one team charged with hunting him down. >> come here. come here, sharky. come here, little guy. yeah. fish. this trout. a rainbow trout. it's beautiful. whoa. that's not good. >> man, that's a big fish. >> nope. >> nope. >> no way. >> sorry. no. you're going to need a bigger boat. >> yeah. and maybe disco balls and an 8-track. >> come on, tough guy. come on. come on. >> i was just looking for a shuffle board on the lido deck. >> sam combined "the love boat" and "boogie nights." >> they said it was a boat. i thought it was "love boat." and there were special guest stars. >> not doing your day job. >> the lido deck. >> it was the perform shoes he had on. the outtakes for that, priceless. our christmas party for that. >> a lot of fun. so, if sam maintains the costumes very '70s, well, there is an era that is upon us. i was away on vacation. and twitter exploded with this "sharknado" thing. >> if case you haven't seen it. we just thought we would share a little bit of "sharknado," so you know what everyone's talking about. >> they are ferocious rulers of the sea. now, they're in the air, too. >> can't just wait here and wait for sharks to rain down on us again. >> first time in a chopper? >> yeah. first time with a sharknado outside. >> scared? >> not scared at all. there's a shark outside the window. >> look out. sharks. >> whoa. what happened to i am -- you were so nice at the peach bit. we're going to need a bigger chopper. let's just land. you know what? let's go with land. can you land this thing? this is chopper to control. chopper, they're everywhere. they're everywhere. go away. go away. >> no. >> i think -- >> yeah. speaking of outtakes, we have something for "gma live!" today. >> we need to show outtakes this week. >> i got injured shooting that scene. i'm very method. >> you came back from "kelly & michael." and we got in the act with you. take a look. we saluted shark week. >> fin hair. >> and i notice that sam -- >> i love that guy. i love that '70s guy. >> he had to tear it from his lip. >> that '70s guy is you. >> it truly may be me. if i could grow the mutton chops i'd have them right now. it continues on discovery channel. it continues on discovery channel. it's a bat week to be a seal. let's get to the boards. one or two things we want to share with you. we're going to start with a quick look of pictures out of nashville. all porning long we're getting the flooding. it's torn up the commute. nashville has this flash flood going on there, throughout the morning. and look at the yellow bull's eye. we've been talking about this outside of branson. very early this morning. about 4:00 in the morning. gooding and water rescues went through this area. make sure you're staying up with your local abc stations because you can get two to three inches f rain in an hour. >> cloudy skies this morning. a break here and there. a dry start but we won't end that way. 77 degrees. very moist and humid. afternoon showers and thunderstorms will be likely with highs in the mid >> all that weather -- all that weather was brought to you by invisalign. i want to introduce you to elise watson. you're the wildlife collection manager, for the shedd aquarium. you have the shark tank. and we had some lion fish. you were going to show me a shark egg. and i said to you, sharks don't lie eggs. and you said -- >> actually, they do. some do. and some have live births. and there's a third form of reprodushgs, where there's an egg inside. >> show me the shark egg. >> this is a zebra shark egg. there's very few places in the world that had a ability to breeze zebra sharks. we're one of the few places that leads them. this is a large egg case because this came from a 7 1/2-foot shark. >> can i touch it? >> yeah. >> it feels like a seed pod. not an egg at all. >> it's hard like this, because it's got to protect the little pup inside. five months until it hatches. >> unbelievable. thank you for hanging out with us. thank you for bringing the wildlife on the show. sharkopedia. the official encyclopedia of shark work. let's go to lara. >> i'm in the kitchen with the property brothers. big stars on hgtv. it's time for improve this. we're great to give you inexpensive projects you can do in a weekend. and the brothers are hire with their favorite tips. i want to start with this wine rack. it was recycled from a pallet? >> exactly. >> i love that if you can find a pallet, you can do anything with it. this, we cleaned up one side. sanded it down. prepped it to put your wine glasses and your wine. it will contrast a more modern design. >> if you don't like wine, you can use it for other things. >> no. it has to be liquor. if you wanted to add space, you can do it. >> tell everybody what these are made of. >> out of the store. it's an option to just get everything off the counters. get it on the wall. this year, it was less than 100 bucks. these are simple solutions that add character to a room. >> anywhere. >> sam would like to add the wine wrack. >> we can do chinups. they're strong. >> chinups, over here. >> you get everything in a local horde ware store, from the galvanized pipes. next time we go dumpster driving, sam, we'll take a look. and let's talk about the chopper piping. you can buy it in the lengths. cut it down. and you can make a pot rack. you can buy the clips. or get some copper cord and make the hooks. this kitchen looked boring and bland before. we wanted to add some personality to it. >> did you call our kitchen boring? >> a little cutting top. i need the beutjer back. the cart east, you have something lying around the garage. >> you just painted it. >> put some wheels on. >> you know how i feel about the paint. >> you guys are just showing off. >> how sexy would it be to wheel this in the bedroom to chop up a salad for your wife? >> everybody, we thank jonathan so much for their great tips for "improve this." you need to check out their new show, "brother versus brother." they're my brothers on hgtv. coming up, lenny kravitz is here. stay with us. nice job. "tem democratic party of virginia sponsored this adad." ken cuccinelli is on a mission. he wants to overturn roe v. wade, in virginia, to make all abortions illegal. cuccinelli even tried to bully the state board of health to get his way. the virginian-pilot said "the consequences of such a politically motivated precedent could be significant." cuccinelli's war on abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. ken cuccinelli. he's focused on his own agenda. not us. welcome back to "good morning america." "the butler" doesn't come out until next friday. the movie is star-studded. the cast includes oscar winners, forrest -- why can't i speak? forest whitaker, jane fonda, cuba gooding jr. not to mention mariah carey and this guy, lenny kravitz. it took a minute to realize it was you. >> that's a good compliment. i appreciate that. >> how has the experience, not only being involved in this movie, so many use one word, important. but also playing that character, who is so elegant? >> it was great. i love working for lee daniels. he's a great director to work with. and he's responsible for getting me in film. >> right. >> my role in "precious." and encouraging me to be in film. as far as the film, yes. it is an important film. it's an important film for all of us to see. especially, i believe the youth, to be educated on all of these things. because people go to school, they're being taught, think they. there's a lot of people that don't know about the freedom riders or civil rights in general. >> a it takes you from the civil rights to obama. >> and people have lost their lives, people of all colors. >> the character that you play, a lot of people didn't know existed. >> as members of the negro community, what are your biggest concerns? come on now, boys. don't be shy. come on. >> well, since you asked, sir. >> i did. >> the colored help get paid about 40% less than the white help. and it's difficult for the colored staff to be promoted. >> i'll tell you what. when i'm president, i'm going to look into getting you boys the raises and promotions you deserve. >> that would be swell, sir. >> john kuszcue cusack as nixon. >> that scene with cuba gooding and forest whitaker and john cusack. >> how about working with oprah winfrey. >> working with oprah was wonderful, as well. she's such a presence. and i think a lot of people assumed that she might have come to the deck with a big oprah machine and all that. but she came as an actor. she came to do her job. and to be that character. it was low-key. everybody, a lot of big stars in this movie. legends. you know? and -- >> speaking of legends, your god mother, cicely tyson, was your date on the red carpet for the premiere. what did she think about your performance? >> she liked it a lot. i mean, she -- you know, she's such an amazing actress. and i grew up with her my whole life. i would like people to know that she approved of my performance. >> the tyson stamp of approval. >> and she was moved by the film. i could see her, while we were watching it, getting very emotional because so many memories that she was part of. >> any "hunger games" fans out here? [ cheers and applause ] i was happy to read you'll be in the second installment. >> oh, yeah. >> what a pleasure to be part of that amazing franchise, as well. >> another amazing gift. >> will you keep making music? >> i have a new album for the beginning of 2014. >> i love it. we want to sing with you. we want to play games with you. >> next time. when i come back. >> deal. lenny kravitz, everybody. and, please, give us a favorite. if you have a chance check out lee daniels' "the butler." if you have a chance check out lee daniels' "the butler." this caramel mocha. caramel almond. caramel turtle. [ sighs ] that would've been awkward. with dunkin's caramel iced coffee flavors, there are more ways than ever to love caramel. try the new caramel coconut today. america runs on dunkin'. so i decided it was time to find some real harmony with nature. [ screaming ] whwhoo! oh, yeah. elmo! [ howling ] mmm! [ eagle chirps ] [ train whistles ] [ bird chirping ] [ screaming ] [ tuba bellows ] whoa. hey! [ screaming ] [ snoring ] music to mom's ears. we may live in houses, but we're born for busch gardens. pretzels! [loudly] no, thanks! pretzel roll from dunkin'. try the new pretzel roll sandwiches from dunkin' -- get any bakery sandwich on a soft, warm pretzel roll today. america runs on dunkin'. many of us know steve jobs is the man who founded and revolutionized apple computers. many don't know how it started and who helped apple get off the ground. when "jobs" is released. and josh gad stars as waz. i'm excited you're here, too. you're in this movie. it's before we knew about the apple and the ipod and mac. this is about the relationship early started things. what made you gravitate toward the script. >> it was almost like an origin. the prequel to the story of steve jobs that everybody came to know. i didn't realize that the man that is responsible for the ipod, the ipad, the iphone, was fired from apple. and that there was this entire story that happened before kind of the legacy of what we know came about. >> and we talked to your co-star, ashton kutcher. he talked about how intimidating it was to play someone like steve jobs. you had equally difficult task because you're playing someone who is watching you playing him. and he's incredible. how did you handle that? >> you know, i admire and love the man that i portrayed in this film, steve wozniak. he is working on something else. i would love for him to see the film in its entirety and comment on it. hopefully i have a chance to meet him after. >> you approached this role with admiration and respect to this man and nothing else. >> that's right. i love steve wozniak before i began the process. i cherish him and admire him after i played him. so, it really is one of those roles that it was amazing to sink your teeth into. >> before we go, we're going the play a game about gadgets. we thought it would be fun. >> my name's in the word gadget. >> ipod or walkman? >> ipod. >> iphone or blackberry. >> dvd or vcr? >> vcr. >> laptop or desktop. >> laptop. >> i'm agreeing with you on all this. josh gad, thank you for stopping by. and "jobs" opens nationwide august 16th. ready? happy birthday! it's a painting easel! the tide's coming in! this is my favoritite one. it's upside down. , oh, sorry. (woman vo) it takes him places he's always wanted to go. that's why we bought a subaru. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. welcome. welcome. thanks, everybody, for watching today. tomorrow, come join us. party in the park, with kenny chesney. and "gma live!" coming up in three, four -- one -- six -- >> logon. >> good morning. we've got some happy news for you today. the national zoo is celebrating the birth of two tiger cubs. this is a live look at the zoo's tiger cam. the tigers are critically endangered so the birth are considered to be a big conservation success. this is the mother's first litter. the cugs won't be on display for several months, you can watch them on the web cam. you did not win the huge power ball jackpot if you bought the ticket in our area. there were three winning tickets. one was sold in minnesota, two others in new jersey. but a $1 million winning ticket was sold at a giant food store in annandale annandale that winner has not come forward. now here's amanda. >> we've got big problems on 270. an earlier crash caused damage to a sign. they are doing repairs. 270 north bound blocked. slow commute for drivers on i-95. still taking about 37 minutes to get between stafford and dumb frizz. over to jack eafment >> we have quite a bit of cloudyness this morning but breaks here and there. it's a warm and muggy start. i think the first half will be dry. wet this afternoon with showers and thunderstorms as the coldfront gets closer to us today. heavy downpours today and tomorrow. today partly sunny, scattered afternoons thundershowers. 84-88 and we'll see less rain by the weekend. >> thank you for watching. we'll be back in the afternoon. announcer: it's "live with kelly and michael." today, recording artist and actor lenny kravitz. and from the new comedy "we're the millers," emma roberts. plus, nicole richie takes a seat at the co-host desk all next on "live." [captioning made possible by isney-abc domestic television] announcer: now here are michael strahan and nicole richie! cheers and applause] nicole: thank you! thank you. michael: you're welcome. cheers and applause] well everybody, today is thursday, august 8, 2013, and filling in for kelly today is my friend nicole richie! cheers and applause] how you doing? nicole: i'm good. it's good to see you in new york. michael: it's good to see you anytime. nicole: thank you. michael: yeah, joel, i said it, her husband, what you gonna do? fight me? so how you been? nicole: i've been good, i've been good. i've been traveling a little bit with my family, going on vacation and you know, working and now here in new york, i flew out here just to see you, just to be here. michael: i'm so honored! so honored. i appreciate. , now where have you been for vacations? nicole: we went to europe for two weeks. we went friends of ours, and their little baby and their parents. their whole family. it was really, really nice. i never get to take two weeks to just spend it with my family. that's it, you know? we were together the whole time, and it's important, it's important to have that time. michael: how did that work out for you? because two weeks with family -- nicole: it was a lot. michael: was it all right? >> yes, yes it was. it was great. michael: you've been traveling a lot too because joel was doing "the voice" in australia. nicole: yes, he's basically there around six months a year. so, he'll go for three weeks and come back, go three weeks and come back. during the live shows he has to be out there for two months. michael: did you go? nicole: i went last year for the full two months. i couldn't this year, so i was there for three weeks just right in the middle. michael: now what about the kids? do the kids? they like to travel? do they like it over there? nicole: they're actually totally fine with it. they're excellent travelers. i put them in school there so they don't miss out -- michael: do they have an accent? nicole: every time harlow travels, she loves to come back with a fake eck sent. [laughter] she loves it! every single time. michael: so harlow is like madonna? nicole: yes, she is. that's what i think. [laughter] michael: just because you move to england for three months, you don't come back talking like the queen. that's not how it works. what? madonna gonna beat me up along with your husband? come on! nicole: wow. michael: we crazy here. but that's awesome. you've been traveling, you've been working. you're all the way out here to hang with me and i appreciate that. nicole: yes. michael: i'm just curious, your husband and i, we were in a fantasy football league together, joel madden from good charlotte by the way. [cheers and applause] yes. and the other brother benji. we had cash warren in the eague, jessicale ba's, david catsenberger, a little celebrity league. i wasn't in last pleas, i don't care what your husband comes home and tells you, i was not in last place. nicole: who was? because he did tell me you were in last place. michael: because your husband is going to come home and try to make the professional football player look as bad as he can to build his self esteem and himself to you. so i was in next to last place! [laughter] nicole: ok, all right, fair enough. i do have some news, i know you've been hearing you haven't gone home yet, but -- michael: i haven't been back to l.a. in a while. nicole: i just happened to overhear the guys talking, i do have some news to break to you. michael: what? nicole: you are no longer on their fantasy football league. michael: they kicked me out the league? nicole: well -- michael: how they going to kick me out the league? [laughter] nicole: listen, i don't know details. i don't know details. what i do think is that you're in new york now -- michael: that has nothing to do with it! nicole: you're a new yorker, they wanted it to be an l.a. thing. michael: i know what it is! nicole: this is so awkward. michael: this is the problem, your husband is intimidated by me! that's it! because this is the problem, the problem is, i told them after last year that i was going to come back this year and win the whole thing and they knew i was right because i'd done it as a professional. and i will definitely win fantasy. [laughter] so, i got kicked off the league and didn't even know it? nicole: yes. michael: then they send you here to break to news to me? nicole: i think they're going to give you the details next time -- michael: they're not going to do it in person, i guarantee you that. nicole: at least now you can sit it for a few days. michael: i'm not going to calm down. they sent a pretty lady to tell me thinking i'm going to be cool with it. i'm not cool with it fellows. i'll make a special trip to l.a. i may with nicole. nicole: if you do get back in the league, are you doing to use your name. because i do know your name. michael: what was my name? tell them my name. nicole: can i say it? michael: say it. nicole: wait is it make cash -- michael: no, no, can't say that one! no, no, no. [laughter] nicole: i don't know the name. michael: no, you can't say that name! nicole: i didn't think so. michael: that was was somebody else's name and they were trying to recruit me for their team, but i had my own team. my team were named the gap stars. what you laughing about? i'm sensitive about my gap. [laughter] no, my team was named the gap stars, but yes, you can't say that other name. [laughter] nicole: ok, all right. forget it. michael: so i'm curious, you're in great shape, you've had kids, looked like you haven't had one baby. nicole: thank you. by the way, so does your wife. michael: yeah, nicole looks great. she has five. nicole: nicole, let me tell you something, nicole murphy, fiance, she, i -- [laughter] michael: hey, spends my money, she's my wife. [laughter] cheers and applause] nicole: this is true, this is true. well, we all had dinner a few months ago and let me tell you something i was standing this close to her. her body is unbelievable. it's unbelievable. she has the west body, i'm telling you, of any woman i've ever seen. michael: i know. [laughter] nicole: she does. i'm telling you, every time i see her i'm like whoa! michael is so lucky! i'm telling you. shoael: all i got to say is is right. she's hot. she's very hot. nicole: she is. michael: i think she's tried yoga, but do you do yoga? nicole: i don't do yoga, i do the tracy anderson method which i think kelly does too. i used to do yoga. michael: you did the hot yoga? nicole: yes, yes. michael: did you like that? nicole: yes. by the way, i can always be in heat. always. [laughter] michael: so that means you plan on having more kids? [laughter] i can always be in heat. nicole: i'm always cold. i'm always cold. and no matter what, i can always have the heat on. michael: ok. now that's a better way to put it. nicole: yes, yes. michael: because gelman is a yogi. look at him, his neck is just moving in directions i've never seen. but no, a lot of people, you know matt and sam alvarez. they're always trying to get me to do this hot yoga, i always say no. but hopefully they're watching the show, hot yoga, there are no more benefits to hot yoga than doing regular yoga, outside it makes your muscles probably looser and you can bend more. and this is from reuters. so if it's on the internet, it's true. but no physical benefits outside of flexibility and stuff like that to doing hot yoga. but a lot of people think that there are. nicole: it's interesting that you mention this, because part of the method of tracy anderson is to work out in the heat as well. now, i don't know the exact benefits of it, as you say there's none. but i do like the idea -- [laughter] i do like the cry dee of just sweating and getting it all out. michael: yeah, maybe it's a cleansing thing. nicole: yeah, more of a cleansing thing. michael: i can just go sit in the steam room. nicole: but you want to stretchby the way the heat does help you relax, you know that. so maybe it helps you relax and get into those positions. by the way, i have no idea what i'm talking about, am i right? gelman: they're saying it doesn't burn anymore calories. michael: what do you think? nicole: it's good for your muscles. gelman: it's cleansing, but it doesn't necessarily burn more calories. michael: it helps you cleansing and loosen up your muscles, helps you relax. i get the same benefit, seriously, in a steam room sitting back like that, because i'm relaxed and i'm loose and i'm chilling! without the grunting. [laughter] but then heating up the room when you work out? nicole: that's what we do. michael: i had to do this work out with kelly, the a.k. technique, they put the heat on. that's ridiculous. i'm already hot working out. i got on layers, i go with sleeves on because i like to work out with sleeves. i'm almost butt naked by the time we finish the work out because i keep taking stuff on. nicole: it's good to cleanse. michael: i'll remember that. but nicole with the perfect body has no complaints. [laughter] i'm joking, she does complain. [laughter] not about me. nicole: yes i do. michael: and also, do you sleep a lot? nicole: do i -- i do love to sleep. michael: ok, how many hours a night? nicole: would i like to? michael: yes. nicole: i would to sleep a good eight, nine hours a night. michael: how many do you actually sleep? nicole: five. it's fine. to sleep more. michael: kids or wake up? nicole: wake up around 5:00 every morning. michael: always been like that? nicole: always been an early riser. michael: when he was younger i could always sleep all day. nicole: not me. i always wanted to be one of these teenagers that woke up at 1:00, carefree, chilling. i was the only 16-year-old up at 5:00 a.m. michael: what time did you go to bed? nicole: well -- michael: we used to watch your show. i know you were out late. [laughter] out late and up at 5:00 a.m. you know what? they try to say sleep loss explains some of weight gain for people. they did a study. saying that people who did not sleep and had fatigue had that evaluate ty your appetite. which means your cravings. if you don't get a lot of sleep it makes people crave and threw off their appetites so they ate more basically and created overweight and obesity. nicole: ok, i've never heard that before. michael: me neither until i just daily newsing in the today. that's interesting to me, because i think i sleep enough but i don't at the same time. i wish i could sleep more but i can't stay in bed. nicole: do you wake up in the middle of the night? michael: yes. nicole: me too. nicole: do you get up in the middle of the night? michael: i'm getting to the age that if i don't, there will be a mess in the bed. [laughter] nicole: i'm not there yet. michael: yeah, you're not there yet, i'm there. where i'm like my dad now. i'm becoming my father. nicole: see? i'm not there, because i still look at my mom and i'm like ok, well i'm not there yet, that's kind of your issue. michael: so you just wake up and lay-in bed, just awake? nicole: i wake up and i get up for a minute, and then i come back and i'm chilling. michael: you get up for what? if you don't have to do anything. nicole: i'll tell you what i do that's so bad. i get up and i check my phone and i can't go back to sleep which is the worst thing. the worst. michael: you're a phone addict. you're addicted to the phone? nicole:, i'm like i have to do something. and what i have within doing lately, which is awful, i've been falling asleep with the tv on. michael: you can't get a good sleep with the t on. nicole: no, you cannot. the nights that i don't i have a completely different day. michael: really? nicole: yeah, yeah. michael: did you fall asleep with the tv on last night? nicole: i did, yeah. i did. michael: see? if you hadn't i would probably seem a lot more clearer. i can't get a good night sleep with the f the on because all that distraction, i'm in a dream and the next thing i'm tom selleck in a ferrari with t.c. in a chopper and i wake up and "magnum p.i." is on. but i'm like five hours. last night i tried to go to bed early. nicole: what time? michael: i shut off the tv at 11:00. nicole: what time did you wake up? michael: i woke up the first time at 3:00. nicole: did you get up? michael: of course -- i had to! nicole: you had to, i got it. michael: i had to. so i got up at 3:00 and then, i always wake up naturally like at 6:456789 nicole: ok, all right. michael: but even if i go to bed at 2:00, i wake up at 6:45. nicole: i'm the exact same way, the exact same way. well, have you guys heard of this? yesterday, there was a shark found on the subway. this is real. michael: sharknado is here! nicole: this is real. [cheers and applause] it is though! michael: sharknado! nicole: by the way, did anyone see it come in or out? i want to know how it got there. michael: it walked in there. yeah. never seen a shark walk on their back fins? nicole: i don't even know what i would do. michael: see, that has to do with the sharknado. that's probably the movie company saying hey, to the intern, we'll give you $20 if you take this shark -- nicole: yes, yes, take the shark, put it in the subway. michael: slide it under the seat. then they called the paper for it. because there's no way a shark is going to amble into the subway. if you have a shark at home and if the shark passes away you don't take it to the subway. nicole: i think this shark is at furor feet. michael: a four foot shark? how do you get in there with nobody seeing it? nicole: that's what i'm saying. gelman: back pack. michael: maybe that shark had on a suit, and it got robbed, they found him butt naked under the seat. the sharknado is real. nicole: it's true. michael: we have a big lotto, the big powerball. anybody play? [cheers and applause] nicole: i didn't, i did not play. michael: anybody here win anything? gelman: the staff one. michael: our staff won something? y'all bought a ticket. nicole: $14, yeah? but it's winning. that is winning. gelman: between 18 of us. [laughter] we're going to let it ride. we're going to let it ride into the next jackpot. because otherwise we'd have to start -- michael: because i know you gelman, he's got that calculator, that means i get 83 cents, 48 cents after taxes, i want my money now. so you're going to let it ride on the next one? because there were three winners. two in new jersey and one in minnesota? minneapolis? yeah, minnesota, i'm just listening to you, you guys know more than i do. that is awesome. so three people have to split $448 million? nicole: wow. michael: i said if i won i would come back to work every day. gelman: you did. michael: it is so good to lie. [laughter] nicole: is that true? michael: i would. i would come back. i'm not saying i would come back with the same attitude. but i would come back to work but i'm not sure how long i could keep coming back. it depends. i would make sure all our audience members, guests would have food. nicole: you just want to make sure everybody's having a good time. michael: i want to make sure everybody's having a good time. [cheers and applause] nicole: that's nice, that's very nice. gelman: you get a car, you get a car! michael: he wants me to be oprah, you get a car! you get a car! you all get cars! [cheers and applause] nicole: i agree! michael: see, gelman's spending my money. but if this crowd had to stay until 3:00 in the afternoon, he would not even give you a pretzel. [laughter] so, i would just like to buy everyone here food, make sure they are healthy. nicole: that's very thoughtful. michael: they're eating, keeps them enthusiastic. [cheers and applause] we need it. what we need! well, we have a big show today. nicole: yes, we do. michael: big, big show. [cheers and applause] all right, i'm going to teach you, for today and tomorrow you have to take your card, take the blue, and cover your coffee, cover your coffee up -- nicole: ok, all right. michael: and also, you see those people -- nicole: i know what's about to happen. michael: they're av advantages. nicole: you can aim right for his face guys. michael: they're savages, they will do it. so get your confetti stick. you can throw it at anybody you want. anybody give me bad eyes i throw it at them because right now it's time for splash dance trivia! [cheers and applause] ♪ >> [fine young cannibals "good hing" playing] [cheers and applause] nicole: was that your idea? michael: nicole looking at me looking at our trivia dancer, what's happening over there? is that your idea? that is my idea. that is paige from gainsville, georgia. [cheers and applause] paige, thank you, looking good. great dancing down there in georgia. keeping it tight. and on the phone we have misty from wake first, north carolina. [cheers and applause] caller: good morning michael, good morning nicole. nicole: hi! caller: good morning, how are you? nicole: we're great, how are you? caller: doing wonderful. michael: what do you do for alying down there? caller: i'm a real estate agent. michael: oh! nicole: nice. michael: so you can hook me up? caller: maybe, maybe yeah. michael: ok, but i need a reduced commission rate. caller: i will certainly do that for you, michael. michael: now you're getting ready to send your daughter to college? caller: yes, going next week. michael: which school is she going to go to? caller: she's going to appalachian state in the mountains in north carolina. [cheers and applause] nicole: nice. michael: congratulations to you. you know what we're going to do, after you send her to college hopefully we can send you on a nice little vacation. so nicole will spin the wheel and see what you're playing for. nicole: all right. [cheers and applause] [cheers and applause] michael: uh-oh. all right, oh -- oh! we cannot decide what we want to give you. all right, you're playing for the red mountain resort in southern utah, seven days, six nights and deluxe accommodation. deluxe meaning great. [cheers and applause] all right. it includes three meals daily two massages per person, round trip courtesy of orbitz, valued at $5300. and you have 20 seconds and only one guess, are you ready? caller: i'm ready. michael: all right here we go. on yesterday's show, erin andrews and i talked with actress amanda say fred. what did we say she calls her 92-year-old grandmother? caller: nina! michael: you got it. announcer: congratulations, you and a guest will enjoy seven days, six nights at the red mountain resort, in southern utah, red mountain resort has everything you need to relax, renew and rediscover your passion for adventure. beautifully designed rooms and suites are carefully situated on 5 5 acres. your prize is valued at approximately $5300. [cheers and applause] michael: all right, congratulations. now you can help a lucky member of our studio audience receive a $500 gift certificate from omaha steaks! [applause] and let me tell you something, i'm looking at these people in the eye, they're hungry. caller: ok. icole: so please pick a number between 1-182. caller: 16th wedding anniversary coming up, i'm going to go with 16. [cheers and applause] ichael: there we go. all right, congratulations, enjoy your trip. congratulations ma'am, enjoy those steaks. hey, stay right there, when we come back, the incredible lenny kravitz is here! [cheers and applause] announcer: still ahead on "live," actress emma roberts. we'll open up the inbox to hear your comments and questions. coming up next, lenny kravitz. [cheers and applause] michael: welcome back. now on tomorrow's show, from the new film "jobs" ashton kutcher will be here. [cheers and applause] nicole: and a performance by ountry singer brett el dritch. michael:, now, writer producer, four-time grammy award winner. please welcome one of the greatest rock musicians of all times, mr. lenny kravitz! [cheers and applause] cheers and applause] michael: have a seat, man. >> good morning. michael: that's that rock star swagger when you come out of there. i can't get it! i can't get it! , lenny, i can't get it! >> how are you? michael: i'm great. >> good. michael: i have a little bone to pick with you. >> do you? michael: yeah, because you cost me some money recently. >> i did? michael: yeah. would you like to explain yourself? because i'm a little upset. >> well, your fiance was in a store in l.a., most incredible boutique called church. michael: yep. >> and she was trying on clothes, so, i thought i would just hang out and watch her come out of the room. [laughter] nicole: i told you guys, she's stunning, stunning! >> in her outfits because it was quite captivating. [laughter] michael: uh-huh. >> and i was like yeah girl, that looks great. oh yeah. so, she walked out with a lot of stuff, man. michael: i know! >> but i didn't know you were paying the bill. michael: you know that's a good way to back out of that lenny. one way you can -- >> like who was paying the bill, if i wasn't paying the bill? >> michael: you keep saying she looks great, you could have paid. i would have been fine with that. she told me she saw you. i've always been a big fan so i'm glad you're here. >> how beautiful is nicole? nicole: thank you, thank you. [cheers and applause] this is a great seat to be in. michael: but you guys have known each other for a long time? nicole: we have, because lenny is friends with my dad. so i've known you since, i don't know, i was a teenager. >> yes, exactly. nicole: it's crazy. >> her dad is amazing, amazing, amazing man. [cheers and applause] nicole: thank you. >> legendary. nicole: sometimes after my dad is done hanging out with you, i always know when he sees you -- >> how is that? nicole: because he'll come home and then he'll buy a new pair of leather pants. [laughter] and it's just so wrong. it's so wrong. he's like oh, i want the leather pants with the ripped t shirt and the blazer, i'm like dad, you're like 60 something! >> don't say that, he's going to be mad. nicole: i normally call him a hundred so this is really nice, this is nice. >> because he was telling me he doesn't like when he's in the nightclub and he says you, oh dad. nicole: i don't even go anymore, and he still does! michael: after me and lenny, i'm going to wear leather pants on the show tomorrow with you. [cheers and applause] but you know, this is a big year for you, lenny. i couldn't believe this, this is the 25th year of your career. >> yes, sir. michael: amazing. >> yes, blessing. amazing. michael: for 25 years, how have you kept it at such a high level? >> you know, i don't know. i can only say that in a business where things come and go, i can only say i've always been myself, i always do what i feel artistically and it's led me here. i'm so blessed. i really appreciate it. and thank you all. [cheers and applause] michael: so, after 25 years, is there something you haven't done that you wish you could do? or you want to do? >> there's places that i'd still like to go see and experience, you know, even though i've been touring for 25 years, you don't see as much as people think you might be seeing, because you're going in and out so quickly. so, you know, i haven't been to india yet. i haven't been to vietnam. i want to go there because my dad spent time there when he was corresponding for the war. it was my dad's dreams to go to he didn't os island, get a chance to go. michael: you can make up for that shopping trip by taking me with you. when we come back, lenny will tell us about how making this film brought him back to his childhood, "lee daniels' the butler." so don't go anywhere. announcer: still ahead on "live" from the new film "we're the millers," emma roberts. [cheers and applause] michael: we're back with lenny kravitz, star of "lee daniels' the butler." you know, i hear you have a very special relationship with your grandfather. tell us about that. >> incredible. you know, my grandfather really put a lot of love and energy into me. and we were always close, from the time i was born. you know, he was really adamant about teaching me discipline, followthrough, integrity, honesty. he comes from the bahamas, and at age 9 he had to be the man of his family. michael: wow. >> and take care of his mother and four brothers and sisters, at 9. went to nassau, got work, went from there to florida and got work and created this life so that my mother could attend college, was the first in her family to attend college. she went to howard university, studied at the shakespeare institute in england, and you know, made it possible, obviously for me to do what i'm doing and now for my daughter zoe, so i pay a lot of honor and tribute to my grandfather. nicole: and you're very close with your mother too, and your mother and your grandfather. >> oh yes, extremely. i was a mama's boy, no doubt, no doubt. michael: now, that relationship, have you taken anything from that with your own kids? >> oh yeah, zoe and i have an incredible relationship. we speak every day, you know, we spend a lot of time together and she lived with me from age 11 to 21. so, i had some very interesting years. nicole: yeah. [laughter] >> very interesting years. but she's my best friend. nicole: yeah, did you notice the relationship change? because i feel like, once i hit probably 25, 26, my relationship with my dad and, you know, he was my dad of course, but we didn't live in the same house. >> right. nicole: so once i kind of hit the age 26 and i had my own kids, it was like our relationship changed, and we had each nderstanding for other, and it changed. do you feel that way at all? at all with zoe now that she's an adult? >> i mean, it's always been amazing. there were the years like, you know, 17, 18, 19 where, she had to go and kind of feel herself. nicole: do her thing. >> do her thing and i was cool with that, because i left home when i was 15. but, we're closer and closer every day. and yes, as she's getting older, i've felt it coming back, she's going to be 25 in december. but, you know, we can't get enough of each other, it's a beautiful thing. [cheers and applause] michael: no doubt. we got to take another quick break, man. when we come back, we're going to talk about "the butler" with lenny kravitz everybody, stay right there. cheers and appl [cheers and applause] michael: we're back with lenny kravitz, who's in the movie "lee daniels' the butler." you play james holloway in this movie, but you said being on set had brought back memories of growing up. why is that? >> man, i walked in the first day, it was the scene we're in my house, there's the parrot, we're playing cards, everybody's dancing. just every item in the house reminded me of my grandparents house or uncle's house. nicole: yeah. >> the furniture, the carpets, the ashtray, the martin luther king and the j.f.k. praying hands on the wall, the little ceramic lighters. it was a trip, like going back in time. nicole: this isn't your first film with "lee daniels' the butler" right? >> right, we did "precious" together. nicole: which you were amazing in. [cheers and applause] >> thank you very much. michael: "precious" you played nurse john. >> nurse john, yes. michael: but he found you, you didn't audition for either one of these movies did you? >> no, no. i met lee at mr. chow's in new york, i was eating dinner one night and a mutual friend introduced us and lee said he was trying to find me and could never get to me. i should be making films. he knew of my mother's theater work, which i was really impressed about. before "the jeffersons." and he said if i had a drop of my mother's talent that i would be ok. so he gave me this role in "precious" and then after that, "hunger games" came, so it's been great. it's been great. michael: you've already wrapped up the sequel to "hunger games." >> yeah, we're done. michael: you're done. >> coming out in november. nicole: nice. michael: "hunger games," part two, i can't wait to see that. but also, this movie, i've seen "the butler." it's amazing. the work of everyone in this film is amazing. a history lesson that really makes people think and how far we've come in a short period of time. >> yes. michael: in this clip, richard nixon is talking to the butlers. >> yes, john cusack. michael: john cusack playing nixon. and lenny kravitz. >> let me ask you something in all candor, as members of the community, what are your biggest concerns? now, come on now boys. don't be shy. holloway, come on. >> well, since you asked sir -- >> i did. >> the colored help gets paid almost 40% less than the white help. >> is that right? >> yes, sir. >> and it's very difficult for the colored staff to be promoted. >> i'll tell you what, when i'm president i'll look to you getting you the raises and promotions that you deserve. >> that would be swell sir. [cheers and applause] michael: that was big to speak up. >> yeah. michael: the other guys were giving you that look like shut up. [laughter] that was big. you know everyone, please go check out this movie, "lee daniels' the butler." it opens on august 16! [cheers and applause] give it up one more time for lenny kravitz everybody! [cheers and applause] nicole: our next guest is emma roberts. announcer: monday on "live" from actor ies "the newsroom" jeff daniels. next "live," ashton kutcher! he's going from hartthrob to computer whiz? michael: i computized the whole studio. [cheers and applause] michael: you take that away. nicole: she is a model, a singer, an actress, and her new movie "we're the millers" comes out very soon. please welcome emma roberts. cheers and applause] >> how are you? i feel like i'm shorter now. nicole: by the way, see who's taller? how tall are you? don't lie. >> 5'2" on a good day. nicole: i'm 5'1." >> who's taller right now? michael: i think emma got you. nicole: my shoulder is higher than hers. >> my hair is taller. [laughter] nicole: shoulders! michael: you're 5'1," you're 5'2," i was born at 5'3." poor mama! [laughter] welcome to the show by the way. >> thank you, so happy to be here. michael: it's summer time, so have you had any summer vacations or anything like that? >> you know, every summer that happens i'm always working on something and by the time i have off it's the middle of winter, i'm like who's ready to go somewhere tropical? and they're like no. nicole: i would go with you. i love going tropical places in the winter. will you invite me next time? >> yeah. i used to go to summer camp, that was my summer activities in minnesota. so growing up in l.a. that was fun. michael: what's that like? cano and fishing. >> and sale and archry and all types of things you never do in l.a. nicole: what do you like to do now in l.a.? >> not that. [laughter] but yeah, that was really fun. did you go to camp? nicole: i was actually never allowed to go to summer camp. >> not allowed? nicole: i'm still mad at my parents. i used to go with my best friend and we would buy the promotional tapes and we would watch them and then go back to school in september and pretend like we went. [laughter] michael: oh my -- you know what, lionel, you should be ashamed of yourself man! depriving this child of camp. nicole: did you go to camp? michael: camp was like this, ok, get out the house. [laughter] and when those street lights come on you better be in this house. [laughter] that was summer camp. [cheers and applause] emma, we have to take a quick break, ok? when we come back, emma's going to tell us why she'll never wear khakis again. all right. we'll find out with emma roberts. announcer: tomorrow on "live," a performance by country star brett el dredge. "the democratic rty of virginia sponsored this adad." ken cuccinelli is on a mission. he wants to overturn roe v. wade, in virginia, to make all abortions illegal. cuccinelli even tried to bully the state board of health to get his way. the virginian-pilot said "the consequences of such a politically motivated precedent could be significant." cuccinelli's war on abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. ken cuccinelli. he's focused on his own agenda. not us. [cheers and applause] michael: we're back with emma roberts, star of "we're the millers." i saw this movie, i had been waiting to see this movie and i laughed like you would not believe because it was crazy. now, jason sudeikis plays a small-time pot dealer who gets robbed trying to do a good deed for you. >> yes. michael: and in turn has to do a favor for the drug kingpin, and creates a fake family, and you're one of the family members. >> i am. michael: you play a runaway. >> i do. michael: but how -- you're in this with jennifer aniston and jason sudeikis, were you nervous? jennifer aniston's a big, big star. >> i was nervous. i've looked up to her forever. i love "friends" i've seen all her movies and literally met her for the first time on set and saw her, she's coming over to me, i'm like hi. i did the awkward handshake, hug, high five, what do i do kind of thing? i was bright red and i was like it's great to meet you. and she was like give me a hug, come here, i was like ok. and i was literally standing there, oh my god, day one i've made a complete fool of myself. so i had to make up for it and apologize later on. sorry for the weird hello. nicole: are you guys close now? >> we hinge out offset which was really cool. i've seen her for stuff for millers now. i'm still star struck when i see her, oh my god, hi jennifer. i just called her jennifer. literally. so, it was a dream come true to work with her. michael: because i saw her, i tried to hug her, she wouldn't hug me. [laughter] you said you would never wear cackies again khakis again. why is that? >> well, in the movie i wear these very unflattering khaki shorts. [laughter] and i wanted to wear -- yeah, it's not a great length. and also, the shorts are tanner than me. i'm the pailest person alive. and i wore them for three months straight shooting this movie, by the end of it i was like i should have picked pants. michael: you wore those for three months straight? >> it took us three months to shoot the movie and we were pretty much in that outfit. yeah, you guys don't realize. it seems like a few days but we're in those clothes by months and months and by the end we're like never want to see the pink polo and khaki shorts again. michael: and they do wash the clothes. >> they do, i swear. michael: in the clip, the family is headed to mexico in a huge r.v. let's check out emma roberts in "we're the millers." >> fireworks, oh my god guys look! fireworks scloop hey, pull over, there's fireworks! >> no, we're not pulling over for fireworks. >> come on, i vote fireworks too. >> see, even this loser wants fireworks! >> the kid want to see the fireworks. >> fireworks! fireworks! >> ok, enough! enough! let's get something straight right now! his is a job, we are not the brady bunch, i'm marky mark and y'all are the funky bunch! >> the what? [laughter] [cheers and applause] nicole: "we're the millers" is in theaters now, we'll be right back. [cheers and applause] announcer: if you would like to learn anything more about what you saw, visit our website, livekellyandmichael.com. >> your turn. very good guys. well, ok. how are you doing? >> my name is nicole. >> i'm sorry, nick. and i'm doing a great job. >> and we have show wiz. nicole: you have so much energy for an old person. i'm so tired. [laughter] that's your web series on aol on? nicole: yes. michael: and that was your dad and your sister. nicole: yes. michael: so you let them do all the work? >> first of all i was doing work, they just didn't show it. [laughter] michael: ok. nicole: and the point of that clip, he was messing up my name, he calls me the wrong name all the time. do you do that? michael: you go through everybody's name. nicole: before getting to the right one. michael: chris, jr., sandra, deb -- they called me my sister. michael: he calls me sophia, then he kales me miles, and i'm like i'm a girl! and then he left a voice mail on my phone, hey mike. who's mike? [laughter] michael: maybe daddy got a ittle secret he need to share! nicole: we don't even have a mike in our family. michael: based on your twitter feed which is great. le we have a few it will inbox items we want to read. brook said on twitter, great week on kelly and michael, my fashion idol nicole richie, sports girl, erin andrews. we gave you everything! [cheers and applause] nicole: all right -- michael: what you got? nicole: yeah, ok, joe from pennsylvania said hi michael and nicole, my brother in law formed a fantasy football league with seven other guys, all of them were married within five years, five of them got divorced. were married within five years, five of them got divorced. michael: i quit that league! okay, a? b? b. a? that's a great choice. let me show you some faucets to go along with that. with the latesstyles and guaranteed low prices, you can turn the bath you have into the bath you want. good choice. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, this abbey vanity combo is a special buy. just $299. >> rachael: today... >> don't eat what the cav man wouldn't eat. >> rachael: i don't know where i can buy a brontasaurus. dr. ian is breaking down extreme diets. >> rachael: then...can ricky make this woman's room fit for a lady? and -- >> my name on the showw is laur webberspencer. >> rachael: ovever 30 years aft laura and luke said i do, genie francis is back on the set of "general hospital." >> it's so embarrass approximating. >> rachael: wow! [cheers and applause] >> rachael: hey, everybody, welcome. so we're a couple months into the new year and that means sadly for most of us that our new year's resolutions have pretty much all fallen by the waste side at this point. we've fallen off our diets and many people start looooking for quick fix, the extreme weight loss plan or the detox plan to get back on track before they're too far into the new year. today we're goingo break down the extreme diets that are out there and find out whether or not from a doctor we should give them a shot. please welcomeack to our show, the author o of a diet, too, except his is new york times number one selling diet, "shred," the diet. >> rachael: before we get into the trendy diets and i have a girlfriend who is on one of these, on again, off again kind of thing. i'm curious about all three of these. before we do that, let's recap for everybody the "shred" plan this, is not just a diet, six weeks, two inches, four sizes and sets you u up for a lifetim plan. >> simply "shred" says youat regular food, dieting should not be expensive. four meals a day with three snacks, you never go hungry. you lose weight this the short term, it's a lifestyle plan. you can live this way forever. it is easy and makes sense, it is healthy, theey is healthy. >> rachael: i love that, guys, check it out. new york times best seller for a reason. [cheers and applause] >> thank you, thank you. >> rachael: now let's get into it. when we're choosing a diet, what are the biggest mistakes we're making or how do we choose between the diets out there? >> one of the biggest problem system this, people choose things that are restrictive. they eliminate so many foods, you can't stay this way forever. >> rachael: you won't live like that forever. you tend to bifrj out. >> choose a program that is anying to challenge you, you have to be challenged, but a program you can stick to and not fall off of in two or three weeks. >> rachael: to keep the whole of your life. don't choose a diet, choose a plan for your life. >> absolutely. >> rachael: what are we looking at here? is >> the first diet is the fruitariian diet. 75% of food by weight must be a fruit. the other part must be from a seed or a vegan, very complicated in that sense. the reason people like it, you can lose weight very quickly. >>yeah, you are eating mostly water. you are eating fruit. >> absolutely. ashton kutcher has been a fruitarian and tried the program. he had gastric problems. >> rachael: i would imagine. >> the issue with the fruit diet, the major issue is this. people lose weight, because there is so much sugar, fruit have natural sugar, you send your insulin through the roof. you get big insulin spikes, that will cause weight gain. the other frb with the diet, you are not eating all these things that can do things, like meat. lch, i'm not saying overdo it on meat. meat provides protein and iron. so it says you can't have that. what i feel like is you got to be careful, but you can make the fruitarian diet healthier. how about that? >> rachael: sure. if you are going down that road eating mostly fruits, i would add vegetables. >> absolutely. i choose dark greenleafy vegetables, lots of fiber. veggies have carbs, but the carbs are different. mixing the carbs and fiber can make a difference as how far the blood sugar will rise inside your body. >> rachael: you are controlling the insulin problem. you are adding vegetables, dark leafy green and protein. >> legumes are great. chick peas and lentils are great n nonprotein source of food. >> rachael: if you are thinking about approximate trying that, make these adjustments, add in the protein. >> there are few examples we have reported where people stay long-term on a diet like this tis difficult. >> rachael: it doesn't s sound realistic to me. to me. your choice. the cave man diet, the idea is don't eat what the cave man wouldn't eat. throw it all away. they take away -- >> rachael: i don't know where i can buy a brontasaurus, a side of fred flintstone. where do i get that? >> big turkey leg. et me explain something, take away refined sugar, legumes and grains. >> r rhael: you can't havave legume? >> that is what you takeaway. >> rachael: they are only eating meat. >> largely meat, which is an issue. >> rachael: all meat and no grain. >> no grains whatsoever. that is a problem, you are getting rid of whole grains, which are full of nutrients. a lot of celebrities do it. reportedly matthew mcconaughey. >> rachael: he was doing that for short term as an actor to portray a character. i know him, he's man thatoves life and all things in moderation. >> he's using it. >> rachael: very fit and healthy guy and loves everything. >> megan fox has reportedly been on it. remember something, if you eat this kind of diet, you take away your calcium. >> rachael: bad for women, especially. >> osteoporosis. m can also get it. you are eating so much meat, you limited the space for fiber. >> rachael: it can't be good for your colon. t much meat is bad for your colon. >> we are both carnivores, too much meat is bad, it can be fatty, bad for heart disease. >> rachael: artery is the number one killer of women. >> for men also. the problem with the meat, it can slow your digestive system. you are tanking on the meat. no restriction and you are not having fiber. so let's do an alternative. >> rachael: okay. >> in my program, for example, in the "shred" diet, i add things, you can have meat, you can have fiber and enj these things and get your calcium. what i want to do in the back of the book, we have different recipes, i wanted to show you an easy smoothie. >> rachael: okay. >> a tasty and healthy smoothie. you can help me make it. >> rachael: sure. you have fear of blender. >> blender malfunction. it is not very smooth. we have yogurt. >> rachael: yogurt. >> full of calcium. >> rachael: i love greek yogurt. >> great, right? calcium in yogurt. we have strawberries, and you can mix with blberries. we have milk in here. cuhave almond milk, low fat milk. we have flax seed. >> rachael: flax seed is awesome. cubuy a tortilla chip to pasta to bread with flax seed and you can buy flax seed >> it can fight heart disease, cancer, diabetes. >> rachael: my mom puts it on oatmeal everymorning, she is big in flax seed. >> a lot of people don't like the oil, mix it with things, you can't taste it. honey. >> rachael: a drizzle of honey. >> i love berries, this is strawberries, a lot of fiber and antioxidants. >> rachael: you have good-looking berries for this time of year. a little banana. half a banana. >> then put like -- >> rachael: two cubes of ice. >> maybe cold, my kids love the ice part tis chilled. >> rachael: you should make smoothies at home with the family. freeze the berries and have them on hand all the time and the berries arehe ice. >> we make this at home twice a week tis fun for the kids. mix it up here. >> rachael: very successful blending, by the way. >> right; right. that is why you do what you do. okay. that is done. you can see how fast we did that. >> rachael: all right. great nutrition. >> now taste that, that is just -- >> rachael: i'd love tasting it, it sounds delicious. they skimped on your strawberries. sorry. cheers. >> mmm! mmm! all day long. >> rachael: that's delicious. >> under 200 calories. >> rachael: under 200 calories, guys. truly delicious. >> the last program is calleded the tongue patch diet. >> rachael: i've read about this, i did not believe it was real. tell them what this is. >> i will say a doctor invented this program. the idea is very simple. they sew a patch to your tongue, a mesh patch. the idea isis that when you eat it's painful and therefore you are not going to be eating solid food because you d't want to do that, you will b drinking. the appeal to the program is that you will be consuming a lot fewer calories and you are going to lose weight quickly. now the idea is the doctor also prepares what i call an elixir that you drink, obviously you only drink now. the elixir has 750 calories. i will date myself, this is comparable to people in the old days wiring their jaws shut. you sip through a straw. here is the key. what is the magic number of calories, you should be consuming whehen you lose weigh or per day? i decided to demonstrate that with myself. i will use myself as guinea pig. bmr. yourasil metabollic rate. when you are at rest, how much energy is your body burning or consuming that, is your bmr. if you stood here, you are burning calories and functioning. calculate my bmr. we have a nice formula to show. the formula for women, your bmr is 655 plus your weight in pounds, inches and years. it looks complicated, but it's not that complicated. this formula, there are appapproximates online to use. men that, is the bmr. the number 66 plus the number you get from the calculation. we doll mine. i weigh 185 pounds. >> rachael: right. >> how tall am i? 6-2. >> rachael: yeah. >> how old am i? >> rachael: i don't know, how old are you? >> how old do i look? >> rachael: 35. >> there is my girl. i'm 43 actually. >> rachael: yeah! >> so those are my numbers. >> rachael: your number. >> calculate it. calculate it, that means my bmr is 8 -- >> rachael: that is so cool. 1865.95 calories per day before -- that is your break even. break even. >> break even. right. it's great. >> rachael: awesome. >> when you talk about weight loss, increase that bmr, active mr, when you start moving around at work ouout, cuget 2500, whic means break even at 2500 calories. >> rachael: that is awesome. i'veeard when i go to the gym each day, between 4 and 500, depending what i'm doing. >> sure. >> rachael: that is extra, you know what i mean, can have that much extra. >> we are going to the gym togetether. we are, we are. i'm serious. anyway, the bottom line here is when choosing a program, choose something that you can really do. don't go extreme. extreme may work in the short term, but could be dangerous to it your health and won't work for the long-term. >> rachael: it won't be with you for the long-term like the "shred" diet. i say the same about cooking, if people don't like to cook. closese your eyes, if it approximate you can envision yourself being successful, you will be able to cook it. if you choose a disxet close your eyes, can you live the rest of your life on it. >> and beonest about it. >> rachael: that's right. love you. >> love you. >> rachael: thank you to dr. ian. "shred" number one best seller, stores now. you can get itn amazon. now we'll switch from extreme diet to our next guest who goes to extremes to give homeowners a ig surprise, along with a dream renovation. check him out in action. >> thanks, i love you. >> i'm ricky paull goldin, home renovation freak. it cuts just like that. perfect. social networking junkie. now i'm harnessing the power of e-mail, twitter, facebook, flash mob, to give struggling homeowners the surprise of a lifetime. >> rachael: oh, my goodness. >> with just a few clicks, i can activate a task mob of total strangers with wid range of skills to transform a home in just three days. >> yeah. >> it's outrageous, it's ntagiou this is "spontaneous construction." [cheers and applause] >> rachael: it looks like flash mob construction, i love it. please welcome back to the show, our good friend, part of our family here, ricky paull goldin. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: hi, rickcky, come around this side. >> hello, everybody. >> > rachael: that's gorgeous sweater, i like that. >> ink that -- thanks. >> rachael: everybody was a soap opera fan, knows him from "all my children," but we all know him, if you watch our show, everybody knows him bececause hs part of our extended family. this is kai's dad, gretta's sweetie, the three best-looking people probably on the planet. >> stop that. >> rachael: as close as we are as friends, we go to rock concerts together, we hang out. i didn't know you werento this renovation, handyman diy thing. my husband can't even pick up a paint brush. i'm impressed, a. b, lucky gretta. c, has this always been a hidden idea? >> my mom was the type of m mom that made sure i had a job every summer. i had to roof. i followed a carpenter around, i had to make money. >> rachael: actor/carpenter. >> when i was a starving actor in l.a., i would get an apartment, do minorepair and rerent it out at profit and make money. i would ddo that all over townn until i had six or seven apartments going, i can do this, i like this, i love this. >> rachael: you are a decorator, too. i love this. >> decorator, designer, yeah. >> rachael: designer, decorator. so that makes diy and renovation look like fun. >> yeah. >> rachael: i've lived through renovation a few times in my life. it was not fun. fun would not come to mind. explain the concept of the show. >> it is sort of like "extreme home makeover" meets "smash," and i love to smash stuff. >> rachael: i love smash, too. >> we show up with a flash mob, which turns into a task mob, and they "don't take the girl" leave until we get everything done. you ever feel like, i wish i had manpower to get this done. i was an only kid, i didn't have a brother to help me move a table. it really worked. we leave people very happy. >> rachael: i think it is such a cool idea. we waited -- [cheers and applause] >> rachael: here in new york my husband and i waited because there are so few hours per day that you can have workers, you know, my husband and i, it was like, i don't know, it seemed like forever, it was supposed to take four months, it was a year and a half, two years, if we had flash mob, we could have done it in a weekend. >> we will set up flash mob to do isaboo's next -- >> rachael: i love knowing this about you, i will work this one. i will trade food for diy for the rest of our lives. >> you got it, o of course. >> rachael: we wanted to give ricky a challenge at our home away from home, you, kai and gretta are here often. this will be i important to gretta. we love coming to work, we have fun here, what makes us miserable is going to the lady's room. the lady's room at our television show is awfuful. here is the problem. the stalls are so small, i'm not lying, the stalls are so small, you can't get behind the door on the side you need to be onnd pull your pants or skirt down because your knees hit the wall and you can't get to the toilet because the door won't let you, 's right here. >> it's true. >> rachael: this would not be a problem for a man, but it becomes quite an issue in a messy way for the ladies. we have to show each other our business and leave the door open. we wanted ricky and his crew to dohat they do bebest,o in, they have had a day and a half to do it? >> yeah, a day and a half, basically 24 hours. >> rachchael: 24 hours, that is what thehey do, they do it fast down and dirty. how is it going? >> it is going, it has hurdling, the stalls are small, no storage, no personality. we are almost there, it needs jugging, we are just finishing it up. >> rachael: perfect. can you get it done by the end of the show? >> yes. >> rachael: all right. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: we'll give a big reveal, probably illegal to show people in the stall on television in some way, but can you have somebody test drive it for us, too? we knowou can get in and out of? >> archie bunker flush, maybe. >> rachael: have somebody test drive it. when we come back, i'll meet you guys in the prep kitchen when we come back. [cheers and applause] >> announcer: tomorrow... >> rachael: that is adorable. >> announcer: don't want to spend? it is time to tip off. first -- >> staple it. >> rachael: stapling it? >> yes, ma'am, wait until we see. >> announcer: tips that will make your old-fashion come to life. >> rachael: they look great. >> announcer: then: . >> custom rugs are expensive. look at this. >> announce decorators and tips for decor that are sure to score. >> all you have too do is spray. it is easy. >> rachael: tadah! boom! >> announcer: then: . >> people could be more. >> what could be better than >> people could be more. >> what could be better than horseradish "t democratic party of virginia sponsored this adad." ken cuccinelli is on a mission. he wants to overturn roe v. wade, in virginia, to make all abortions illegal. cuccinelli even tried to bully the state board of health to get his way. the virginian-pilot said "the consequences of such a politically motivated precedent could be significant cuccinelli's war on abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. ken cuccinelli. he's focused on his own agenda. not us. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: so today's show has been about extremes, extreme diets, extreme renovation, when it comes to making dinner, we nt the extremely easy, right? one of my favorite go-tos is an easy sauce, no-cook sauce, it is seasonless and you can put it on anything from tofu and mushrooms if you are vegetarian to fish, chicken, beef and our lovely culinary team will show you guys how it's made. check it out. >> hey, guys, we're in the ge prep kitchen, we have a great tip today. we will will make argentinian no-cook chimichurri sauce. to any dish.n bring bold flavor to get this sauce started, grate garlic into the food processor. this is going to give your sauce add kick. she has half an onion and then we add oregano. add in cilantro and s some parsley. okay. next we're going to add seeded fresno chili and honey tow sweeten it up. then add lime juice. get it all in there, add red wine vinegar. i'm going to season with salt and pepper. now it's time to whi it up. going to stream in olive oil. bring it all together. look for chimichurri sauce and approximate put it in a serving dish. add it to any of your favorite dishes, chicken, roasted vegetable, fish. let's go eat, let's go. [cheers and applause] [cheers and applause] >> rachael: all righty. 30 million viewers watch as our next guest, in character, said "i do," during the famous wedding of luke and laura. i know, i wated it, too. i know! it's the most watch daytime drama event in the history of television. now to help celebrate "general hospital's" 50th anniversary, herr character just to clarify s not 50, she has returned as laura spencer. take a look at her in action. [cheers and applause] >> i'm sorry. >> mom, my god, mom. >> oh, lulu. oh! >> rachael: please welcome for approximate the first time to our show from "general hospital," emmy winner,enie francis. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: you look good. laura, i love your jacket, baby. >> thank you. >> rachael: it's so fre tow meet gen francis in real life, i'm like, laur ai love your jacket, you look amazing. it is, it is so weird. i did not grow up in a house, my mom was work nothing kitchens since the time i office her hip, she didn't watch a ton of soap operas, but every one i knew, my older sister and her friends, all of my friends, we were all huddled around the television together watching luke and laura's wedding. it is a huge iconic moment in television history s. it weird to be on the inside of that? i was there and remember th.at. >> yes, all i can say to that, what is it like to not be on the inside of that. this tape has followed me on every program i've ever been on, you know, for the past 30 years really. i'm a huge fan of yours, i'm thrilled to see you. >> rarachael: thank you, genie francis. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: now you heard, i'm sure backstage, you could hear the audience getting excited and squealing as soon as i said luke and laura. what are your favorite fan because people are obsessed with this couple. >> right. they love the couple. years ago when it was in heyday, it was crazy and screaming and hair pulling and climbing and peeking in windows. now it is not like that, i have friends everywhere. i go anywhere and people smile and wave. it's a nice feeling, i really enjoy it. >> rachael: like having a big extended family, right? >> honest to god is. >> rachael: these people went to your wedding, sort of. >> they feel like they know me. >> rachael: exactly. i think that is the thingbout daytime drama, you really feel you're in the family's homes during the daytime hours, often the kids are out to school, they feel that intimacy like you are their next door neighbor, right? >> they do. it brings back memories for them. they sat and watch today with their grandmother or evokes family memories. >> rachael: generations. >> generations have sat and tched the show. the show is 50 years old. >> rachael: amazing. >> yes. >> rachael: so many daytime dramas under the gun and under the knife and disappeared over the years, what a testament to gh and the team and the writers to be around after 50 years in television is something. >> it is amazing. and building new diences. >> rachael: of course, yes, that is so cool about it. it is survivor and survivi strong. >> yes. >> rachael: you started the show when, in '76? >> december 28, 1976. >> rachael: wow. >> that was my first day. >> rachael: i heard backstage that your real-life first kiss was in character on that show, is that true? >> yes, it was. it was so embarrassing. >> rachael: wow! right, how freaky is that. how old were you? >> i think i was 15 by then. everybody on the show who, they loved me, i was like the baby of he family. my tv mom, tv dad and the stage manager, everybody standg around the hood of f the car going, love, genie is having a love scene. i wanted to die. >> rachael: wanted to die there. >> it was horrible. >> rachael: good job, your parents, you made it to 15 without making out. good for you. >> well, this was a long time ago, rachael. different day. >> rachael: different rules. what is it like returning to the show to go back, do you remember the first moment you stepped back into it and you were like, wow, what that was first feeling? >> you mean this comeback? it just feels great, what is cool about right now, everyone who ever carried the show, you know, frisco and felicia, anna is back, different leads are back at the same time. we are there to sort of, who carried the show? and tony, of course, there all along. >> rachael: amazing. he's amazing, i met him at a couple things, what a nice man. >> lovely man. a lovely actor. >> rachael: it must be cool to have that gang, the whole club, does it feel like a family, right? >> real comraderie there. everybody loves this lark moment of having it come back into their lives and be able to celebrate it. >> rachael: i remember trying to explain to family members, i think my dad, who didn't watch, everybody was crying in the wedding. when you try and explain in a nutshell the storyline of a drama, you sound crazy, right? >> yes. >> rachael: it's true, though, it's true. give us some of the storylines going on right now on the show. >> going on right now, that is hard. i can tell you that my name on the show is laura vining, webber, spencer, casadine, spencer. i'm not sure about the last spencer, we did get divorced. >> rachael: i love you have to close your eyes to do that. >> that was only five years, rachael, only five years of story. >> rachael: you know, do you ever find yourself closing your eyes and having to make diagrams in your own head to follow it all? it's complicated, right? >> now i don't try to follow it all, rachael. i just try to show up and do my part and do my best. >> rachael: you know, it is such a joy, look at the smiles in the room, such a joy to see. >> thank you. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: "general hospital," airs ekdays on abc. check local listings. the one and only, genie francis, everybody. grab a snack, we'll be right back. [cheers and applause] >> whoa! a whole second floor up here. >> announcer: can ricky make a whole second floor up here. >> announcer: can ricky make this lady's room fit for a okay, a? b? b. a? that's a great choice. let me show you some faucets to go along with that. with the latest styles and guaranteed low prices, you can turn the bath you have into the bath you want. good choice. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now, this abbey vanity combo is a special buy. just $299. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: guys, welcome back. so what's for dinner tonight is new obsession of mine, i love it. i'm slightly obsessed with devilled eggs. stuffed eggs of any kind really. i've written 25-30 stuffed egg recipes in my life. i thought to myself,he old joke, which came first, the chicken or the egg? i was thinking, hey, why should the egg be having all the fun? what about devilled chicken? everybody loves buffalo chicken, that is just spicy chick hadden. this is my devilled chicken breast and i serve on buttered toast points. it is delicious. [cheers and apppplause] >> rachael: delicious! so start by pounding out your chicken breast, guys. pound them out to half an inch thi, give them a few whacks. then salt and pepper both sides, brown them in olive oil and before they totally finish cooking through, in a pan probablyix minutes or so and they will be in there seven or eight all day. pull them out. and let them rest and they'll continue to cook, i wilill keep them warm by putting foil over the top. you get carry-over cooking. you don't want to overcook them or you dry them out. down in the pan with the drippin from the chicken, add butter. and then in devilled eggs, i use grated onion in the egg and grated garc n. this dish i will use nice mild shallot, shallo shallots, start swirling that arnd and i chop next to the stove so i can drop stuff into the pan as i need it. so after the shallots get going, chop up a fresno chili pepper. i always put a little bit of fresh chili and hot sauce in the devilled eggs. i garnish the devilled eggs, fresno is not too spicy, cut in rings, they look like bull's eyes and at halloween, put a dot of black olivend they look like evil eyeball. delicious. so guys, the heat in c chili peppers in general lives in the ribs and the seeds. to make any chili pepper less spicy, more palettable for everyone, take out the seeds and ribs and turn back the heat level of the chili. fresnos are mild, spice index goes. chop and drop that. and then few cloves of garlic. and now we'll season this up with salt and pepper. i'll let this cook out. when we come back, we'll finish making the devilled gravy. 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[cheers and applause] >> rachael: guys, we're making devilled chicken. i forgot to mention the chicken and devilled gravy on toast is in the comfort food issue of our magazine. i write 10 30-minute meals, 30 minutes or less with step-by-step pictures, irite 10 of them for approximate every single issue of the magazine. nine more ideas, in and out of the kitchen in half an hour. to our devilled gravy, which we started by browning up chicken, to the chicken drippings, we add butter, melt the butter down, add gaic, salt and pepper. lift up the flavor from the bottom of the pan. use white wine or dry vermouth. my husband and i are red wine drinkers. once you open, keep in the fridge. dry vermouth is winene with aromatic, fortified wine. great choice if you want to keep wine to use in your recipe. deglaze the pan with vermouth. it is gat if youou like martinis. hello. then you -- not maybe this early i the morning reallyly. they are like, i don't know, i take one. anyway, you deglaze the pan with white vermouth or dry white wine. lift up the drippings and then add in chickentock to formhe base for your gravy. e're going to season that gravy up, again wall the flavors that go into devilled eggs. switch back to my whisk, get that incorporated. to teaspoons of paprika or two-thirds of a palmful to make it devilishly red. teaspoon of dry mustard or stir in dijon if you prefer. and i go crazy with the hot sauce, my husband and i like things really spicy. it has a dot top on it. put in a few drops, i unscrew the top and pour in a few tablespoo dochlt as much as you kelike. then i add in worcestershire, everything but the kitchen sink in the worcestershire, as well. i'll get that later. let me get a clean whisk to mix that up now. at this point, you mix the gravy together, let it thicken up and let the flavor mbine. give it a taste, see if it is spicy enough, see if you have enough of the hot sauce or worcestershire, it turns out devilishly red, it has gre flavors of devilled eggs. oh, it's going to be so good. let the chicken finish cooking through, we'll serve it up right after this. 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[ jay ] enjoy bush's baked beans... still made from our secret family recipe. >> rachael: guys, this is a spicy 30-minute meal from our magazine, the march issue of the magazine. i love devilled eggs, if you do, too, you will love devilled chicken. spicy grave we stard, paprika, hot sasauce, garlic, ornion, chi pepper, worcestershire, all down in the sauce and shallots. it is absolutely delicious. here is how i serve it up, super simple. take some toast, using -- put your broiler on and use a cookie sheet and bake them at the same time. toast it on both sides. then cut from corner to corner and make toast points and melt butter in the microwave or stove top and paint brush it on there, you get nice even distribution of melted butter. there we go. it makes a nice bed for the chicken, it will catch the drippings. turn this kind of sideways. then put that devilled chicken down over the top. and then spoon that devilishly good gravy allown over that. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: my goodness, that looks good. sprinkle green on the top. chopped flat-leaf parsley over the top. it is done easy and delicious. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: so normally i say this might be what's for dinne tonight, , but the ladies are lining up for the new ladies room, check out rick and he see what the "ontaneous construction" reveal will look like right after this. [cheers and plause] ♪ ♪ ♪ but if your skin feels tight and dry it could be a sign of damage. [ female announcer ] get a healthier clean with neutrogena® ultra gentle cleser. unlike ordinary cleansers that can over-penetrate and damage skin's healthy barrier our breakthrough formula cleans gently w without the damage, yet removes dirt, oil, even eye makeup. so clean really is healthy. [ female announcer ] ultra gentle cleanser. neutrogena®. #1 dermatologist recommended skincare. [ female announcer ] ultra gentle cleanser. >> rachael: back with our good buddy and the host of hgtv's brand-new "spontaneous construction," ricky pauaull goldin. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: so just to recap, the show is they show up with a flash mob to help home owners in the middle of construction projects and the flash mob turns out to be a bunch of helping hands. >> absoluly. a task mob. thee greatest people show up, master carpenters, gardeners and people that don't have any skills, they want to learn and take away something and have a good time. >> rachael: we want him to do a project for us, for us ladies at the show. all the ladies here, they would dread going to the ladies room because approximate you couldn't shut the door to the stall and successfully do what you had to do once the door was closed because it was so tiny. we are anxious to see what you did. let's check it out. >> yeah. my team is here, we're ready to kill it. >> whoa! put a whole second floor up here. my inspiration foror this room french, parlor, a room the girls come in and feel it is like a spa. i got it all figured out up here. a great option to go over existing floor, vinyl plank flooring is easy to install, super inexpensive, easy to clean and makes a huge impact in a room. i wanted to create a one of a kind piece for the bathroom, you can do this for any room. i go on craigslist, they have a section that is free, fre stuff. free is for me. drop a sink in here, drop a sink in here. plenty of room for ststorage, i get new knobs and then this will be a total original. here is a super quick tip. grout is porous. stain your grout. wash off the tile and voila, rachael, you will love this. i went with d lights throughout. what does that mean? we're green. 75% less energy, less heat and they last 10 times longer than regular bulbs. remember the doors we had before, those weren't doors, these aredoors. notice the trim? spe things up a little. all right, ladies, it's finally done, come on in. [cheers and applause] >> i have to say this is bigger than some new york city apartment, plenty of room to stretch out. the problem? not enough stall space, n storage and no personality. i think we took care of all three. i hope you like it, ladies, i'll see you next time, i got to go. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: ricky really did have to go. some came back with him. get the toilet paper off, please. i mean, really? >> so embarrassing. i'm sorry, that is embarrassing. >> rachael: did you see ricky had both legs out there. thank you for making the stalls bigger so the ladies can sit in peace. >> they haven't gone to t bathroom in 24 hours, lineown the block. >> rachael: it is truly beautiful, ricky, amazing job. i didn't know the thing about the grout. >> isn't that cool? >> rachael: the thing about the grout is grt. i love the french doors. >> saloan style doors. >> rachael: i love that for homes, too. >> space challenged, especially in the city, go with the saloon doors. >> rachael: i wowed, thrilledll. >> i could not have don this without stevee and rowly, the team. >> rachael: the boys are here. >> hgtv. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: so the boys knew so much about powder rooms, good job. thank you for get nothing touch with your sensitive side. lovely. [cheers and applause] >> rachael: ricky, i hope this is one of many projects we do together. i think you did an awesome job. >> sure. i take that as a challenge. >> rachael: all the ladies would cheer you, they are in the ladies room. >> the guysre hurting. >> rachael: maybe we even the score with the fellows next time. i will thank you with devilled chicken. thanks. don't forget to watch "spontaneous construction," check local listings. it is on hgtv. we'll see you when we see you, everybody, bye-bye. [cheers and applause] >> raael: want to be on our show? turn around and look at yoursf. get a look at what is coming up, we may be lookingor you. there you are g. to rachael ray dot comand click on daytime tv show for details. and click on show for details. [ cheers and a] >> announcer: it's thursday, august 8th! coming up live on "the view" -- tv personality marysol castro is guest co-hosting for "hot totopics" from -- rumors that simon cowell's baby mama and to a new strategy for raising kids that goes against every headline you've been reading lately. plus, plus, nicole "snooki" polizzi's revealing how she completely transformed her body, if her new baby means the party's over on snooki and j-woww, and how she confronted chris christie for dissing "the jersey shore"! then "hell on wheels" anson mount is telling you how he ended up in an airplane bathroom
ready to make their kick. why suddenly does it feel like she's in the driver's seat? well, people are either positioning themselves already for a role in hillary's government or acting to lock in positions they have with either her or the few people she would give authority to hire for her. why does it feel like the train has already left the station? what does this mean for the other side? if the republicans are also looking for jobs in 2016 and need to win to get those jobs, if they see her on the move already, does that mean they're more likely to push a candidate who actually has a good chance of boxing her out for the center? those people in the middle politically? in other words, new jersey governor chris christie. does this help give him a leg up? speaking of boxing out, is that what the earlier than expected coming of hillary is doing to president obama? he's still in the inaugural term of his second term. is he getting brushed aside from the rush for jobs and connections to a president who has yet to take office and might never take office? who is to blame for all the hilary action right now? a foo feisty crowd pushing her? a media, okay, i'm part of it, looking hungry for the next big story or is it the president in the oval office? is the reason hillary's getting all this attention, the reason the former secretary of state is getting the big buildup because the man in the white house and the fire and excitement for action with three years to get things done is so dimly lit right now? "the washington post" chris cillizza is an msnbc political analyst and amy davidson is senior editor for the beautiful, well written, "new yorker" magazine. i want to start with chris. great column in the post, "the washington post" about sort of the oil and water aspect of what's his name, rand paul who's name i'll learn to say more quickly and chris christie. they don't have nothing in common. it's like that movie "the candidate. " we ain't got nothing in common. let's talk about the dems. >> sure. >> the democratic party used to be the party where all the fight was. there was a fight between left and right -- civil rights, anti-civil rights, the old seggies hanging in there. now it seems to be a party of sort of a general agreement. sort of the same party. but i noticed something over the weekend. the slow, what do you call it, the thing where you change color to meet the background, the fitting in thing of the animal. >> chameleon. >> the chameleon party seems to be changing color to a hillary background rather than an obama background. i know you are reporting on the phone all day must be hearing this. >> well, you know, what you hit on in the intro, chris, is right, which is i will say i am struck by how aggressive and how public she herself is being with this series of speeches. she's given one, going to give two more on sort of big topics, voting rights, foreign policy. talk about national security. there's no way to interpret those kind of speeches except that laying the groundwork for 2016. i'll add one other quick thing to it which is the ready for hillary super pac, the extent to which real clinton hands, i'm not talking about sort of lower level operatives, herald ickes, huge fund-raisers, huge factor in the clinton world, he is affiliated with it. some of the obama folks, jeremy bird and mitch stewart very involved in the obama field organization are affiliated with it. i guarantee you if hillary clinton or someone in her world said to harold ickes don't get involved with this right now, it's going to spur this thing out of control, we don't want it to start yet, harold would not be involved yet. so there's both -- >> you're so right. people are so talking, the old joke is are they measuring the drapes. let's be more practical. they're all talking about who should be chief of staff. i was pushing ed rendell. they're already doing the deck chairs. this is 2013. it's the first year of obama's second term and they're already talking about hillary and who is going to do what. are we ahead of schedule on purpose or is this sheer accident? have they blown it by getting out too fast or is it just smart to keep biden out of the race? >> i don't think it's an accident. you have to look at where she's coming from. she came from a highly visible role as secretary of state. i'm not sure she knows how not to be visible at this stage in her life after all of the places she's been and the way she's been doing it. what's really interesting in terms of obama's visibility is that even as her secretary of stateship seems more and more now about having been about her and about her stature and less and less about really crystallizing an obama agenda, and so now his foreign policy fields really a little vacant, especially in the face of the crisis in egypt and the nsa. >> i think john kerry is doing a hell of a job bringing together the middle east because hillary hadn't done that. in all fairness to him, he's done what she hadn't yet done. that's the fact. >> it's true. look at her luck in a way. she left the secretary of stateship before she had to deal with questions like edward snowden's passport or the crisis in egypt. now it really can be about her and about her candidacy. >> the "new york times," amy, now has a reporter, a desk editor whose entire job at "the new york times" cillizza back to you, your competition is in the "new york times," there's an editor, this woman has been assigned the job of hillary editor. that's how close it's gotten. >> look, chris, people always say to me, because i write a lot about this stuff unapologetically so, people always say it's too early. if you think that no one who is thinking about running for president makes their decision till after the 2014 election, you're just wrong. rand paul, ted cruz, marco rubio, scott walker, you know, that's -- martin o'malley. joe biden. there's a story in "the wall street journal" today joe biden says he might run regardless. this is a huge process. i compare it to an iceberg. the little part that people see above the water, the average voter seize above the water, there's a giant formation below water that's all of the stuff we're talking about now. so look, you cover it if there's news. i think there is news there. she is acting in political ways on a political landscape. i think we all need to write about that. >> amy, what's the first year you can run for class president? is it high school, freshman year? these guys and women show their hand that day, 13 years old. hillary clinton was the star of her graduating class at wellesley. no doubt about it from the beginning before she met this guy named bill from arkansas she had her eye on the prize. this is something that comes with the territory. usually the guys but here we have a woman. by the way, i think the woman's movement behind hillary is bigger than her. i think the reason she will run and maybe win is the power of women my age who want her to be president. it's an overwhelming power base that has little or nothing to do with the tactics of her race. your thoughts? >> i think there's definitely that. you also look at the other reasons she's been in the news and her campaign in the news. one of them in new york is anthony weiner and the fact that somebody on her staff, huma abedin, her husband and gets asked about her job might be on the campaign. there are slightly random factors that made it sort of a complicated question for women as well as because it brings up the whole question of the clinton marriage and the choices that she's made. so there's that, too. i'm not sure that it's for women of every age it's overwhelmingly unambiguously exciting to have hillary be the standard bearer for that. >> but i'll talk about women my age i've had to deal with like close to home. i got to tell you that hillary has done so much in her career that i think that overwhelms everything else. today on "morning joe," chuck todd said there have been unintended consequences of the big hillary clinton push and becoming so visible. we have also joining him is former white house press secretary robert gibbs who made a similar point on "meet the press" yesterday. >> there's lame duck status happens to any second term president in two phases. one is in washington and the ongoing back and forth with congress at some point, you sort of run out of political capital. the president is running up against the clock on that over the next year. but then the second phase, of course, is are you a leader of your own party? at some point, the outgoing president is no longer, you know, sort of is a leader at large but is no longer the rallying point. and if you're barack obama, you want that to start as late as you possibly can. nobody's saying this is what hillary clinton's trying to do or anything like that, but this is an unintended consequence and it's going to make it harder for barack obama to stay leader -- to sort of be able to marshal resources. >> i completely agree with chuck. i as a strategist am fairly floored she has decided to enter the public fray so quickly. >> wow. what do you make of that, amy? >> well, it's interesting because, you know, we were at a stage where we were going from bush to clinton to bush and then suddenly we're back at a clinton. it does have the effect of making the obama presidency seem what republicans in one way always hoped it was, an interlude. and it sort of makes it seem like a historical detour. now we're back to the story we already know. and there are advantages to that for her. but there is the sense, chuck is totally right of feeling a little tired and a little early. >> i get the feeling the president's become reactive. i mean, i was once warned don't be reactive, amy. stay with you. this idea of spending your life reactively, he gets a bad headline in the "new york times" about the egyptian military going well beyond what they should have done. and all of a sudden he has a press conference the next day. a reaction to editorial writing. that's dangerous when a president begins to be not a case of himself doing what he wants to do, why he was elected to be there, but simply reacting to events. that doesn't look strong. it looks to me mechanical. >> whatever you would say about the clintons, they're not just reactive. protean is a word that was always used about bill clinton. that way of disrupting and changing and setting agenda and tell a new story is something that they have been able to do and that maybe they're distracting obama from really figuring out his own way of doing now. >> you bet, chris, i know you don't bet, broder, one of our great grandfathers told you not to do this because he never predicted either and he was the greatest. why do you think joe biden might, this is the way i'm phrasing it, why would he might take on hillary for the nomination fight? if it came to that, knowing he's facing her? >> i think it's simple. he would like to be the president of the united states. i tell people the best indicator whether someone will run or not is have they run before. he's run twice, '87, '88, and 2008. i think he sees -- he is adds close to the job as anyone. he sees and believes in his heart of hearts he's the best person to do the job. my guess, though, chris, is that this is -- i think that joe biden might do it regardless is much more about if hillary doesn't run. i know the speculation is if she run, he might run too. i think the trip he's going to make to iowa next month to be at the tom harkin steak fry is about saying martin o'malley, elizabeth warren, all the other people out there if hillary doesn't run, i'm the top dog if she's not in this race and i'm in this race if she's not in. i can't see him ultimately running against hilary in what would amount to basically a one v. one. i don't think any other serious candidate -- >> the way you described it because they run before is a sign they'll run again it's like where do you find a baseball manager in the major leagues? look for somebody fired in the last three or four years. great to to have you on, amy. great magazine, by the way. coming up, stop and frisk. a judge has limited it dramatically and many have criticized it. tonight we'll hear from someone who says that the policy if done right is saving lives. in fact, it's saving the lives of those in tough neighborhoods. he's got the numbers, he says, to prove it. also, a lot of people say the united states should boycott the winter olympic games in russia this winter because of russia's new anti-gay laws. olympic gold medal winner greg louganis joins us tonight to say that's not his suggestion. but next, it's been 50 years since martin luther king jr.'s "i have a dream" speech and nearly that long since the passage of the civil rights act in 1964 and now "the butler" a movie based on the man who worked in the white house for eight presidents. i saw it last night. it is quite a movie. cuba gooding pops out so wonderfully is joining us live. and our new time slot, our new viewing habits. you and i together. this is "hardball," the place for politics. san diego mayor bob filner was due to return to city hall today but he didn't show up. some city residents in san diego are taking steps to make sure he goes for good. goes away. yesterday was the first day for recall supporters to collect signatures. they have to collect more than 100,000 in 39 days to move ahead with the recall. anti-filner protests you can see them picketing outside city hall. so far 16 women have come forward to accuse filner of sexual harassment. we'll be right back after this. g good around ♪ ♪ turn around barry ♪ i finally found the right snack ♪ ♪ welcome back to "hardball." next week, obviously, marks the 50th anniversary of the march on washington. a seminal event in the civil rights movement, one of the most famous speeches in u.s. history, martin luther king's "i have a dream" speech which i think is the second best speech ever given in this country right up there with lincoln's second inaugural. this weeks starts with a dramatic remind her confident arc of racial relations in this country with lee daniels' "the butler" which debuted at number one in the box office, made $25 million inspired by the life of an african-american white house butler who served from harry truman to ronald reagan over 34 years, spanning some of the most important years of the civil rights movement, starting with the federal troops going into little rock in the '50s. the starring roll in "the butler" is played by forest whitaker and cuba gooding. he plays his co-worker in the white house. in this clip, he welcome here's cuba gooding's character welcoming the new kid on the block, forest whitaker to the back rooms of the white house. >> there he is. heard you were coming. what's your name? >> cecil gaines. >> i'm carter wilson, the head butler. don't worry about big mo behind you. this brother in the mirror over here is james holloway, he's my second in command. >> why don't you shake the man's hand first before you start asking difficult questions. >> i want to know where the man's coming from. >> he give you the tour yet? >> he did. >> i might be able to answer that question if carter will stop running his nasty mouth. >> that was lenny kravitz at the basin. joining me right now is academy award winning actor cuba gooding, jr., and director lee daniels. you did it. last night i saw it in d.c. you got one customer and when i start selling a movie, i never stop. what i loved about it was the education. are you guys having a conversation without me? let me in on this. >> first off, thank you for all the wonderful things you said about the movie. we love to you death anyway. >> i couldn't hear a thing. >> he couldn't hear a thing. his ear piece -- so i was saying it to him. >> he's repeating what you're saying. i'm helen keller right now. >> here's the story. what i came away from not just the sweetness of the characters, you popped, cuba. you popped out of that room from that first scene. every once in an while, i'm getting down with forest whitaker's character because he's like job. like an old testament character. how much more crap can he take? in history from his kids, from his wife who's cheating on him? how much can he take and he keeps taking it. you have this effervescence and you're enjoying who you are and helping the kid out when he's in trouble secretly from the old man, giving him money but saying give me the money back. it was just a great, snappy character. i want to go back to lee on this question. tell me about your character, what it meant to you to play in the white house as a butler behind the scenes but yet a man on top of things? >> it was great because with this particular story, it's easy to make these butlers seem one dimensional and without emotion and life. almost like dehumanize them. they had to be in a room and be invisible in the room. so lenny kravitz and i had a real opportunity to be behind the scenes and just let our hair down, so to speak and to get you know, forest's butler to laugh and just experience life. particularly in those scenes in the house, it was just an opportunity. i mean lee was throwing stuff. threw a parrot at us during one scene. had me doing the james brown and all that, just to show that these were human people so that the audience could connect with them. >> lee, i don't know if you thought about this. i'm a movie nut going back to the '20s movies. john ford might haves. -- movies. can you hear me? >> no, he can't hear you. >> maybe you can translate here. here's what i want to know. >> i can hear you. >> black history. this move i reeks of black history. it's a little like forrest gump because the son is playing in selma, he's a black panther, he's everybody, he's everywhere. but the thing that hit me was, black folk in this country, african-americans not people from the caribbean or mixed background like the president, your history in this country is so deep and goes so far back to the beginnings of the colonization of this country. you've seen all the white people performance, you've seen all of us just like you've seen all the presidents. it's a sweeping look at how blacks are the real deep down americans. your history is american history. and that's what grabbed me about that movie last night. >> thank you. i did it originally, i did the film originally because to me it's a father and son love story. and what i found out that when we were doing the -- when we did the bus scene and the woolworth scene, the sit-ins, i found out it was deeper than just a father and son love story. that it is an american story. it's the civil rights movement and that the civil rights movement is american history. american history is the civil rights movement. we didn't ask to be brought over here, and we didn't ask for those atrocities to happen to us post us being freed as slaves. it's -- it was a magical experience, a learning experience for me. >> cuba, what you could see as an african-american, just as an american you can see the way blacks have to talk to white people. you know, because the white people maybe have power in situations and you have to put up with the bs, if you will of acting a certain way like you're happy when you're not, is your subservient when you don't feel subservient. what did that mean to you as you learn the way the movie is portraying the black experience of living in two ways, the white way you have to show yourself and the real family and friend way you behave. >> i got to be honest with you, chris. when i read this script, i thought that that was such a powerful mechanism to use to show the civil rights era. not an opinionated biased approach but an open approach explaining two ideologies, one being representative of the teachings of dr. martin luther king, where we should be representative of a people -- accessible as a people and professional and act eloquently and speak eloquently. and then you had the other teachings of malcolm x who said by any means necessary we will get the respect that we deserve until he later changed his views. but this film seems to encompass both of these trains of thought through the relationship that is specific between the cecil gaines character and his son. and it was interesting because it wasn't just about race. it was about a parent and a son growing and evolving in their relationship. and one -- you know, all the misunderstandings and misgivings that we all have with our teenage children and how we have to give them the tools for them to be, you know, independent and strong and fierce and at the same time not be too overbearing on our own opinions on what they believe. and i think that's what's so beautiful about this movie is the statement is it opens a dialogue so that kids today can learn what we as americans, white and black, fought and struggled for during the sit-ins, during the freedom rider bus situations. and how we were -- we've been enriched by americans because of that experience and, you know, like i've been saying in all these interviews, we travel foreign a lot. and the american brand has been beaten up and if they knew where we have come from as a people, they'd understand that president barack obama is a natural progression of things to have a black president of such a wonderful nation. >> lee daniels, congratulations. i hope this movie wins every weekend for the next three months. i got to tell you, i'll never know what it's like to be black. >> come on, chris. >> this movie gives you a hint, a hint of what you think it might be like because it's so rich and because it's conflicting. you got oprah winfrey who was wonderful in this movie doing cheating, drinking too much. she straightened herself out at one point. she stopped drinking, staying faithful to her husband later on. a mixed person with problems. the young good looking woman who is not a good person. you've got the son who's a mixed bag. the other son is this loyal american that gets killed in vietnam. there's so much richness to the story. it's about people and about our country. you should be so proud. >> chris, what i've learned is that what i walked away from this film was that -- it wasn't as an african-american you think we as black people were the only people that experienced the civil rights movement. but there were so many white people just as many that were killed trying to help america with the civil rights movement. that was my learning experience from it and i hope everybody will walk away with that too. >> two of those three guys burned alive are white. thank you, cuba gooding. you're going to get an oscar nomination. oh, you are going to get one. >> we're already dealing with one in the movie and that's oprah. back off a little bit. >> she's going to win one too but the other guy, whitaker, is going to get the big one. thank you. lee daniels, great work. fabulous historic work. up next, it's america's biggest yard sale and if you ever wanted a souvenir from the war in afghanistan now is your chance. if you want a humvee and an important programming note. starting next monday, one week from today, catch "hardball" exclusively at 7:00 eastern. no more 5:00. for those of you watching at 5:00 eastern, next week you need to tune in at 7:00. don't worry, i'm going to keep reminding you all this week about that. we're going exclusively at 7:00 eastern. so we're going to have to share some time at a different time. anyway, that's "hardball." i'm "hardball." it's the place for politics. back to "hardball." and time for "the sideshow". if you've ever dreamed of taking a joyride around the neighborhood in a camouflaged five-to know cargo truck, now's your chance. $50 billion worth of military hardware used over the last 14 years in afghanistan will be coming home over the next 16 months. believe it or not, some of it can be yours at gov liquidation.com. there it is. it's like ebay for the department of defense. the site publicly auctions everything from aircraft parts and cranes to vending machines and household appliances. it's made more than $500 million for the department of defense as of 2011. but the drawdown in afghanistan which is the largest pullout in the american history means they'll have a lot more inventory in the coming months. next up, a san diego radio show took to the skies to send a not-so-subtle message to besieged mayor, bob filner. surrender it said. he's refused to resign and now facing a recall effort. the sky writing as an homage to the famous scene from "the wizard of oz." nobody expects a happy outcome in this case. catch this. u.s. senator ted cruz released his birth certificate on sunday to prove to naysayers that he is indeed a natural-born citizen. but according to the "dallas morning news" he may also be a canadian citizen as welt. after consulting with canadian legal scholars the paper reported "born in canada to an american mother, ted cruz became an instant u.s. citizen but under under canadian law he also became a citizen of that country the moment he was born there." unless the texas senator formally renounces his citizenship, he will remain a citizen of both countries. legal experts say, well, that means he could assert the right to vote in canada or even run for parliament up there. while dual citizenship doesn't preclude the senator from becoming president in this country, he's asserting that he's not, he says, a canadian citizen. they say differently. up next, stop and frisk. yes, it's controversial, but does it work? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. the same thi. it's what you love about her. but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your 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said he didn't like stop and frisk but he had a son he wanted to make sure the kid didn't get killed. the only way is to get guns off the streets. this is not just an academic exercise. this is people getting killed and sadly, unfortunately, we all see it again and again and again. it's the same group of people, young minority males and that just devastating that society. we've got to do something about it. >> welcome back to "hardball." talk about a tough subject, that was new york mayor michael bloomberg speaking earlier today making reference to bill thompson, an african-american democrat running for mayor right now who's taking a somewhat moderate position on the city's stop and frisk law. a couple candidates are trying to find the middle. his remarks came today at a press conference where he announced a massive sting operation. it resulted in the largest seizure of guns in new york's history. the shakedown comes as he continues to defend the city's controversial implementation of its stop and frisk program which the mayor argues that's bloomberg has made the city safer by taking guns like these guns they picked up in stop and frisk. a federal judge ruled the tactics were unconstitutionally targeting blacks and minorities in the courts right now. bloomberg was livid when the ruling came out last week. he's filing an appeal and continues to plead his case. not just with new yorkers but obviously the country. in today's "washington post," he spells out in a big editorial plainly stop and frisk is not racial profiling. unlike many cities where wealthy areas get special treatment, the nypd targets its manpower to the areas that suffer the highest crime levels. 90% of all those who commit the murders and other violent crimes are black and hispanic. it is shameful so many elected officials and editorial writers have been largely silent on these facts. when it comes to policing, political correctness is deadly. bill bratton is now an msnbc analyst and eugene robinson is a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. unlike other people, i'm going to try to find the way to good security in this country, people who love our cities, mr. commissioner, who love walking the streets of our cities in nighttime and in day and would like to walk to as many neighborhoods as they could at night without fear of death or mugging or something else. i believe police have a responsibility. i want the honest police officer man or woman, white, black, hispanic, latina or latino to do their job. my question is this, police are not scarecrows and don't just walk around in uniforms and nice hats and do their jobs by simply showing up. they have to take action, pro action to prevent crime. what's an appropriate role for a police officer if he sees people in his sights that he believes are out for trouble. in other words, let's take the example of a gang that has just suffered a hit and he thinks that gang is going out for revenge that night. what's the proper role to prevent that crime? >> you would want it your officers to be cops, what cops are paid to do which is to go in harm's way. if they see something that rises to the level of a suspicion that a crime has been, is, or may be about to be committed, you want them to do something. you don't want them to do as they did in los angeles in 2001 and 2002 prior to my going there as chief of police, drive by and wave. and with the result a significant increase in crime. you want your cops to be assertive and active. but you also want them to be respectful. you want them to be mindful of the law, not break it to enforce it and you want them to in all neighborhoods of the city be the same, not behave differently in a minority neighborhood than you would in a white neighborhood. >> just to stay on that subject, like we do at airports, and i know gene and i have been in many airport situations where it looks hideously stupid. i've said before it's like lords where they expect people in wheelchairs to stand up and walk 30 feet to go through the turnstyle. i go why are they doing this to an older woman? they don't want to be prejudiced to people who look middle eastern. we know that story. but on the streets, would you stop four or five business guys coming out for lunch to see if they're carrying? would you do that in order for the optics? would you do that if you were commissioner of new york today to keep it consistent, as you say? >> you would not want your police officers to do that either absent something that atracks the attention of that individual to the police officer or the police officer attracted to them. and again, the supreme court has basically laid this out with a clear line that you can't go over. that you have to have a reasonable suspicion. and that's defined in the law and defined in -- >> i want gene's reaction to what you've said so far. >> i actually agree with the commissioner that you want police officers to be proactive. i think what the judge said in this case was that this policy, the way the policy is being done in new york, violates equal protection. it's not the same in all the neighborhoods of the city the way the commissioner said it should be. and you know, once you look at the figures, you look what's happened with stop and frisk, there's interesting things that jump out. one thing that jumps out at me, for 2012, 86% of those stopped were black and hispanic. in only 2% of those cases did they find any weapon at all on the person. 2% of the cases in which they frisked. but of the few whites who got frisked, in 4% of those cases they found weapons. that tells me there's something not bright about the way it's being done. that you're actually -- >> what do you think is at work here as a columnist and a person who covers social life in this country, what do you think is the motivation for the police to stop these usually young men, let's be blunt about it, minorities? why are they doing it, to harass them or what? >> i can't look into their minds. i think there's some genuine good police work going on. there's some element i think of keeping a neighborhood under control. look, it doesn't -- that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that it's not done in other neighborhoods and that in fact, the number one thing, the number one offense that gets alleged or charged after stop and frisk is marijuana offenses. so that makes it a victim of crime on wall street but not -- >> i'm with you, my friend, on that. is there any way you can stop and frisk for weapons and leave it at that, mr. commissioner? because it seems to me, we have a general public interest in not having guns on the street. that's why people have problems with stand your ground laws, why people walk around with guns. >> one of the reasons there's been so much resistance to the policies of mayor bloomberg is unfortunately, because of his focus, his well-intended focus on the issue of guns. he has created the impression that the reason that stop and frisk is practiced in new york city is to get guns off the street. that is one of the results, if you will, but stop and frisk is used for everything. if i stop you for a traffic violation, for drinking beer in an open container, it isn't intended to get guns off the street unless you specifically see a gun. the idea is stop and frisk is the basic tool of american policing. and so much of the resistance to what's going on in new york is around the idea that, well, geez, 600,000 stops but only 700 guns, isn't that really overkill, if you will, to get those guns? so it's -- we're talking past each other, unfortunately, on this situation. >> gene? >> yeah, and that's a problem, frankly, of the mayor's creation. the mayor keeps saying it's to get the guns off the street. >> it's not. >> so if he keeps setting that as the bar, people are going to say -- >> it confused me because i thought it was that too. >> that's what he said. i think you can get around the fourth amendment questions of unreasonable search and seizure. i think the 14th amendment questions of equal protection are more difficult, but they're easily solved. would it kill them to stop some white guys. would it kill them? >> i wish we had the technology where a police officer could have a scanner and find out if they're carrying. some day we'll have that. commissioner bratton, thank you sir. it's a decent argument. we're trying to find the truth here. eugene robinson, as always. this is "hardball," the place for politics. too small. too soft. too tasty. [ both laugh ] [ male announcer ] introducing progresso's new creamy alfredo soup. inspired by perfection. i want to remind you again, starting next monday, "hardball" will be on exclusively at 7:00 eastern time. remember, if you want to see us and i do want you to join us, i'll talk about that later, 7:00 is your time for us to share. back in a minute with olympic medalist greg louganis on whether america should boycott the olympics coming up this winter in russia. [ man ] look how beautiful it is. ♪ honey, we need to talk. we do? i took the trash out. i know. and thank you so much for that. i think we should get a medicare supplement insurance plan. right now? 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[ male announcer ] don't wait. call today to request your free decision guide and find the aarp medicare supplement plan to go the distance with you. go long. i've sent a message today to the united states olympic committee, spelling out my own position. that unless the soviets withdraw their troops within a month from afghanistan, that the olympic games be moved from moscow to an alternate site or multiple sites, or postponed or canceled. >> that was president jimmy carton, of course, on nbc's "meet the press" in '80 announcing plans to boycott the summer olympics held that year that summer in moscow unless the soviet union withdrew its troops from afghanistan. carter went through with his promise to boycott. american athletes did not participate in the summer olympic games and the soviets boycotted the summer games in l.a. the cold war is is over. when russia announced itself anti-gay law, applied during the games during this summer, winter, rather, gay rights and human rights activists turned their focus to protesting the 2014 olympics in russia. the law, by the way, allows for the finding and detaining of anyone deemed to, i don't know what this means, to promote homosexuality to children under the age of 18. is boycotting the games the solution? president obama said he's opposed to a boycott. joining me, somebody who ought to know about this, former four time olympic gold medalist greg louganis, a diver. it's great to have you on. by the way -- >> it's great to be on. >> you know how that started? robert kaiser, a great reporter for the "washington post," columnist at the time, wrote a column saying we should boycott the olympics over the invasion of afghanistan. walter mondale, the vice president saw the article that morning, took it to jimmy carter, the president, who i was working for as a speechwriter and said, let's do. i think we have to be careful about these things. your thoughts. you're an athlete. your life, your career, your greatness comes from being able to compete. should we stop our young people from being able to compete because we don't like an ordinance in the russian government we don't like? >> right. >> your thoughts. >> i did compete in the 1976 olympic games in montreal and had that opportunity, silver medalist there. 1980, i was one of the team captains of the 1980 olympic team for our dive team. what we wanted to do is go over there, send one person into the opening ceremonies then all the rest of the athletes stay at home in protest of the soviet union's invasion of afghanistan but still have a presence there. and we had a really strong team. and, you know what, an athlete, an elite athlete has a shelf life. you know, i was fortunate. i was able to continue competing through '84, through '88. and i was on both sides of two boycotts. so i -- you know, i was very blessed in that way. but not all athletes have that opportunity. >> so what's the right way for people, gay and straight in this country, to say we don't like your stupid law? i don't even, by way, i mean, i don't want to be sarcastic about this. i don't know what it means to promote homosexuality. it's nature. you can argue about it. something like an advertising campaign isn't going to change your orientation. >> exactly. >> it seems to me. >> i would be a walking propaganda, myself, personally. i'm a gay man. i'm also hiv positive, but i'm also an athlete, too. so, you know, i'm totally against the -- >> what's the right smart american way to give an -- evolutionary values on this? i must say our values have changed, as you know, personally. so here we are, 20 or 30 years ahead of the russian people. what do we do to get them to catch up? how do we hit them hard or kiss them right way, whatever it takes to get them to change? >> i don't know if we're going to kiss them the right way. i don't know what's that about. >> it's not about anything. go ahead. >> so, but, you know, i think it would be wonderful for our athletes to go over there. you know, gay or straight. you know, and if they're sympathetic to the cause, i mean, because there are other countries involved here. there's denmark, there's the uk, there's sweden. >> how about a black power salutes at the olympics years ago where the black athletes did compete in the track and field but did put their fists up with the gloves on sometimes. >> they did. >> should something like that happen in russia this winter? >> you know, i don't know if it needs to be all that overt, either. i mean, if all our allies were to dedicate their performance to their gay uncles, son, daughters -- >> to make it individual. >> to make it individual because, you know, it personally says a story that they're in support of their gay family. >> we're out of time. you've got the standing to make that proposal. thank you so much for doing it here. greg louganis. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. ask your doctor about the only underarm low t treatment, axiron. let me finish tonight with this. i want to conclude the show tonight with a big ask. starting next monday, that's next monday, "hardball," the show of my dreams, will be on at 7:00 eastern. that's every night monday through friday at 7:00 eastern, not at 5:00. so what my big ask is, that you adjust your evening ritual. believe me i know it's a sweet time of day, to share company with me at 7:00. it's going to be one hour to share our points of view on what's happening in the country. i know from experience and from the political world in which i've lived the importance of asking. you ask to borrow the car from your dad, you ask a girl to a date, you ask someone to marry you. ultimately if you're lucky, you ask. now i'm asking you. i'd really appreciate you to share your time with me starting as soon as possible for you at 7:00. i'll have the news, i'll have the analysis, i'll have my attitude, as we say in philly, my attitude, my passion to make this a better country. with you aboard sharing your good time with me, we're going to keep trying to get it right. and oh, yeah, what i say to everyone who's kind enough to say hello to me when i'm on vacation, when you bump into me in d.c. or new york or philly, or somewhere else, it's this. thanks for being part of all this. that's "hardball." thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in," it's all-out war in the battle over the policy of racial profiling, known as stop and frisk. ben jealous of the naacp will be here in just a moment. also tonight, chris christie's wild weekend. on friday night the governor went hard right then he came back today, a monday morning moderate. we see what you're doing, chris christie. plus, if you're into secret government documents acknowledging stuff you sort of already maybe thought you knew, it's been a cool few days. last week we saw an acknowledgement that area 51 exist and this weekend an acknowledgement the cia really
>> after a death sentence, a law intern has her doubts. >> there was something wrong. i started seeing what the lies were. >> the case begins to unravel. >> there are those that have a hidden agenda. >> is it a fair trial if somebody lies? >> corruption is the theme of the day almost. >> there was no way i would let this case go. >> there's a body in the water. >> he was butchered and murdered. >> many people proclaim their innocence. >> in this case there are a number of things that stink. >> this man is remorseless. >> he needs to pay for it with his life. >> the electric chair flashed in front of my eyes. >> get a conviction at all costs. let the truth fall where it may. >> good evening. welcome to carolina. tonight we're coming to you from the city of greenwood, a diverse city and one that has the distinction of having the widest main street in the world. >> greenwood is a very small community. everybody seems to know everybody. we're related to everybody here. it is very tight knit. when the news came out about this horrendous murder, it was devastating. >> on a cold monday morning in 1982, the bruised and beaten body of 75-year-old dorothy edwards was discovered in this upscale home. >> dorothy edwards was just a loved woman in the community. she had been horribly killed. >> dorothy was known as a graceful and charming woman with a beautiful singing voice and a wonderful sense of humor. [ sirens ] >> the next door neighbor, mr. holloway, had noticed a couple of newspapers had piled up and he went over to check on her. >> on january 19th, 1982, inside the home holloway told police he found signs of struggle everywhere. a heavy glass ashtray on the floor. a pair of bloody ice tongs. dorothy edwards was found dead in her closet. >> the brutality of the crime scene, the blood, the way the body was, the stab wounds post mortem was just totally unbelievable. >> dorothy's body had 52 wounds, 11 broken ribs and abrasions on her vagina. >> the state forensic tape, with the evidence inside the home. hair samples were found on the bed, blood in various places. outside there were some fingerprints. >> in a crime scene wiped clean of fingerprints, police believe the killer made a mistake, a thumb print left on the back door. the neighbor said that edward lee elmore, a 23-year-old handyman, worked for dorothy from time to time. although he had never been convicted of a felony, police matched his fingerprints from other misdemeanor arrests and issued a warrant to bring him in. accusing him of murder and rape among lesser charges. greenwood police went looking for elmore 36 hours after dorothy's body was found. >> i was working second shift with the detective division and the call came in saying the suspect was at the apartment. i went up and knocked on the door. >> the encounter was not what the detective expected. >> i told him that we had a warrant for his arrest. and i told him it was for murder. his demeanor at that time was so nonchalant. oh, okay. which is totally out of context for anybody i've ever dealt with before in a situation like that. no outburst or violent behavior. just, like, oh, well. >> police took hair and blood samples and placed them in the county jailhouse. even elmore's public defender had doubts about his innocence. >> many people will proclaim constantly their innocence and i cannot remember him proclaiming his innocence and i got the feeling there might be something for him to hide. >> elmore's case came to trial only 82 days after his arrest. prosecutors said dorothy had been killed saturday night when elmore was alone and had no alibi. >> you want to find out whether or not mr. elmore had any alibis. we found none. mr. elmore was not very cooperative. he wouldn't hardly talk to me. >> police found small spots of blood matching dorothy's blood type on elmore's pants and shoes. >> back in the '80s, dna analysis had not been developed. when dna was available it came back positive that it was the victim's blood. >> prosecutors also told the jury that dozens of elmore's pubic hairs were found on dorothy's bed. and finally, prosecutors presented james gilliam. a prison inmate who claimed to have heard elmore confess to the crime while in jail. >> that came out of nowhere. that just rocked me. he said that he went down and robbed the lady. she started screaming. and i killed her. that was the lynchpin. >> the jury took less than five hours to reach a verdict. elmore was convicted and sentenced to death. but the conviction was overturned on appeal. >> there was one juror who was reluctant to impose the death penalty. the trial judge went into the jury room and put pressure on the holdout juror to impose the death sentence. >> a new trial was ordered. same prosecutor, same defense attorneys, same outcome. a third trial was held to reconsider the sentence and again, the decision was unanimous. 36 jurors had determined that edward elmore should be put to death. ♪ 11 years later, a 34-year-old law student named diana holt came to the south carolina death penalty resource simter as a southern intern. one of her first assignments was reviewing elmore's case. >> the first time i saw the name, edward lee elmore, i was reading through the transcript. >> diana started having suspicions that the conviction wasn't fair. she was troubled that there were no expert witnesses and rarely challenged any of the prosecution's evidence. she knew that an incompetent defense was grounds for an appeal. >> i felt like there was something wrong. i needed to meet eddie and give him an eyeball up and down. size him up. >> and who she met wasn't what she expected. >> meeting him, it's just this biggest, sweetest smile and he is so docile and gentle and quiet and happy. happy. how is he on death row and happy? it just didn't make any sense. there was no way i was going to let elmore's case go. yes! not just a start up. an upstart. gotta get going. gotta be good. good? good. growth is the goal. how do we do that? i talked to ups. they'll help us out. new technology. smart advice. we focus on the business and they take care of the logistics. ups? good going. we get good. that's great. great. great. great. great. great. great. great. great. (all) great! i love logistics. became big business overnight? ♪ like, really big... then expanded? ♪ or their new product tanked? ♪ or not? what if they embrace new technology instead? ♪ imagine a company's future with the future of trading. company profile. a research tool on thinkorswim. from td ameritrade. a research tool on thinkorswim. i dbefore i dosearch any projects on my home. i love my contractor, and i am so thankful to angie's list for bringing us together. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. ♪ lord i've started to walk in the light ♪ >> and when you trust god, no matter how bad it looks, it's not as bad as it seems because god is still in control. >> bishop emmanuel spearman was pastor to edward lee elmore, the man accused of murdering dorothy edwards. >> i have come to know edward in the late '70s. i pastored his home church. and his mother and i were best of friends. they didn't have a whole lot. >> one of 11 siblings, elmore's father was killed by a hit-and-run driver when elmore was 2. he grew up in dire poverty. >> he had a low i.q. i was a special ed teacher so i knew that he was slow. when i went to greenwood jail and i spoke with him, he really didn't know why he was there. and that bothered me. >> a hard worker, elmore got by on odd jobs like cleaning gutters and washing windows, including for dorothy edwards. when dorothy was murdered, age old fears and recrimination surfaced in the community. >> i know race plays a role when it comes to the justice system. here in greenwood, there are those who still have their agenda, but it's a hidden agenda. >> i'm positive that race played a factor in edward lee elmore's trials. make no mistake about it. i think that was because he was the black guy that they say killed an older white woman. >> searching through elmore's original trial, diana found potential grounds for appeal. her first target was public defender geddes anderson who seemed utterly unprepared to take on the case. >> i asked him, when did you start working on the case? eight days before the trial began. that's zero time. you can't even read all of the evidence and assess it and crunch it. >> in retrospect perhaps i should have asked for more time. i never have proclaimed to be the best lawyer that ever graced the courtroom. >> overworked and underpaid, mr. anderson also had a reputation as a drinker. >> that's fair. that's a fair accusation. i have had certain, i guess you could say problems with it but i can say this categorically. i was totally clear headed and not drinking during those trials. everyone of them. but on the other hand, you know, i would go out on occasion. i'm not as bad as i used to be. >> in contrast, william t. jones iii, known as willie t., was considered a master of the courtroom. >> willie t.'s track record spoke for itself. he lost very few. he was very dramatic. i've seen that man cry in front of the jury. mr. jones in the courtroom could probably outperform sir lawrence olivier. let's put it that way. >> he could overpower you, overcontrol you, and he was not beyond saying things that he couldn't prove if they weren't challenged. >> early in the first trial, anderson challenged jones by objecting that a single thumbprint was not enough to arrest elmore. >> in order to obtain an arrest warrant, the police presented an upside down thumbprint on the back outside door frame. that's exactly consistent with cleaning the windows. cleaning the door. that is not probable cause in anywhere else in america that i'm aware of. but willie t. said, oh, well i'm glad you brought that up. the forensic pathologist let us know that she had located negroid pubic hairs on the victim's chest and abdomen. the defense shut their mouths and sat down. >> if elmore's hair had in fact been found on the body, this was a new and explosive claim, a claim that went unchallenged by geddes anderson. >> did you ask to see that evidence? >> you would have to look at the transcript to see. i don't know if i did or not. >> according to the transcript, you did not ask to see that evidence. why would you not have asked to see that evidence? it seems like it's pretty important evidence. >> well, i don't know how to answer that. i guess you'll have to take some nonanswer to that question. >> mysteriously, the pubic hair willie t. said was found on dorothy's body was never entered into evidence. as opposed to the hairs on the body, a separate group of 49 pubic hairs said to be found on dorothy's bed also raised diana's doubts. >> a lot of people saw the 49 pubic hairs allegedly collected from the victim's bed as the most damaging evidence against mr. elmore. but this item of evidence was a plain baggy like put your kids' sandwiches in when you're packing their school lunch. not sealed with red evidence tape that says evidence, do not tamper. this did not have that on there. >> the evidence bag contained 49 hairs. a number diana found suspiciously close to the number of hairs police pulled from elmore after his arrest. >> there was from what i understand about, 50 to 60 hairs that were collected, either being combed or pulled. >> but if elmore's hair had been found at the crime scene of the nearly 100 crime scene photographs, not a single photo showed hairs on the bed. >> any kind of evidence you collect at a crime scene, the first thing you do is photograph it. >> there was no pictures of the hair on the bed. there was pictures of everything except the most crucial evidence in the case. so it became obvious to me something wasn't quite right. >> the only photo of the bed shows it covered with police camera equipment, contaminating any evidence. the question became, where did the hairs in the baggy come from? >> there was no question they pulled those hairs from his body. they pulled a lot of them. and i don't think they were ever on the bed. i believe it was planted. >> diana was starting to see a pattern. >> there was all this ineffective assistance of counsel. there was no basis for probable cause to arrest mr. elmore anyway, and there was no list of negroid pubic hairs in the original police inventory. there was no item like that. >> as diana dug deep entire the case, a new suspect began to emerge. she thought the next door neighbor who discovered dorothy's body had acted suspiciously. >> really? he put his gloves on before he went to open the door? that grabbed me right away. capital to make it happen? without the thinking that makes it real? what's a vision without the expertise to execute it... and the financing to make it grow? whatever your goal, it can change more than your business. it can change the future. that's why, at barclays, our ambition is to always realize yours. in order to get a new trial for edward lee elmore, diana needed to find grounds to appeal when she finally read what elmore said in the original trial, she felt more determined than ever to fight back. >> i started reading eddie's testimony and it got me, yeah. and the more it went along, the more it got me. >> i remember when he was cross examened. because for a long time, edward didn't say anything or testify. he just sat there as if, why am i here? why i am a going through this? >> you want this court to believe you're always this quiet, don't you? >> well, sir, you asked me something, i answered. >> you want them to believe you're real quiet and polite. yes, sir, no, sir. isn't that right? >> no, sir. >> edward didn't understand what he was talking about. he didn't understand how to defend himself or what to say. >> why did you hit her with this ashtray? >> i didn't hit her with it. >> why did you stick her with this knife? >> i didn't stick her with no knife, sir. >> tell us how it felt when she reached down and jerked these pubic hairs out of that area, it hurt, didn't it? >> she didn't jerk them off me. i was not there. >> she tried to get off the bed and get out of there. >> i was not there. >> and you caught her and started pounding her with your fist, didn't you? >> no, sir. >> stomach and all. >> no, sir. >> did you kick her? >> no, sir. i wasn't there. >> that's all i have to ask you. >> in his closing argument to the jury, willie t. portrayed elmore as a sadistic killer who tortured his victim before beating her to death. but diana thought that the depiction of elmore was highly prejudicial and the evidence riddled with holes. she also thought elmore had done well under the circumstances. >> even under withering prosecution by brilliant willie t., mr. elmore said what he always said, i didn't do it. >> in order to solve the mystery of who did murder dorothy edwards, diana began looking for alternate suspects and she found one in the neighbor who discovered the body, james holloway. >> i read the testimony of james holloway and my head just about spun off my little spindly neck. wow! >> holloway had spent an unusually long period of time at the crime scene before calling the police. >> he goes inside dorothy edwards' house. he sees that wall of blood for the first time, but he doesn't call police. he decides that he is going to go to the other side neighbor and get her to come in the house with him. so he is at the closet door again and he decides to put gloves on. and then opens the door and lo and behold, there she was. really? he put his gloves on before he went to open the door? >> diana was also suspicious that holloway immediately told police who the perpetrator could be. >> he told law enforcement, you know, there was a boy here a couple weeks back who washed her windows. and if you get me her checkbook, i can get his name for you. and that was edward lee elmore. that boy. >> even more surprising was that the police allowed holloway, a possible suspect, to clean the crime scene the day after dorothy's body was found. >> law enforcement turned the crime scene over to jimmy holloway to clean up. he could do whatever he wanted in there. there was no law enforcement presence watching what happened. there was no preservation of the crime scene. >> diana needed answers so she drove 90 miles to greenwood, south carolina, and showed up unannounced at james holloway's front door. >> mrs. holloway answered the door. she led me into the den and he was sitting on his big overstuffed recliner. so i introduced myself, and he proceeded to tell me, well, you know, really, the only one who could kill her and get away with it was me, the way she trusted me. that was one of the toughest moments in my career of not reacting. holy -- he also told me that law enforcement suspected him because all of the neighbors had told law enforcement that he and dorothy had been having an affair for the last 30 years. he told me that dorothy was supposed to go out of town that weekend because she claimed this guy in tryon, north carolina was going to propose to her that weekend. but somehow she did not get to go on that trip to north carolina that weekend. >> diana realized if holloway was having an affair with dorothy, the motive could be jealousy. and holloway's detailed description of what might have happened also raised a red flag for diana. >> he then starts telling me the story of what happened in her house, as though he were an eyewitness. she was just sitting there on her settee watching tv. he came in and he started on her. it took her a good 20 minutes to die. he just went on. and you didn't -- and there wasn't any nudging or prompting. he was relishing talking about all of the things. it was a gully washer of dumbfoundedness that day. >> diana's suspicions about james holloway were never pursued. he passed away in 1994. >> by 1995, elmore had been on death row for more than 13 years. and he had seen many of his fellow inmates put to death. elmore's survival would now depend on diana getting him a new trial. a process she would launch only 98 days after passing her bar exam. tall the building is, or how ornate the halls are. it doesn't matter if there are granite statues, or big mahogany desks. when working with an investment firm, what's really important is whether the people behind the desks actually stand behind what they say. introducing the schwab accountability guarantee. if you're not happy with one of our participating investment advisory services, we'll refund your program fee from the previous quarter. it's no guarantee against loss and other fees and expenses may still apply. chuck vo: standing by your word, that's what matters the most. crestor got more high-risk patients' bad cholesterol to a goal of under 100. way to go, crestor! yeah! getting to goal is a big deal, especially if you have high cholesterol plus any of these risk factors. because you could be at increased risk for plaque buildup in your arteries over time. so, when diet and exercise aren't enough to lower cholesterol, adding crestor can help. go, crestor! ♪ ♪ oh, yeah [ female announcer ] crestor is not right for everyone, like people with liver disease or women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. tell your doctor about other medicines you're taking. call your doctor right away if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine, or yellowing of skin or eyes. these could be signs of rare but serious side effects. crestor! yes! [ female announcer ] ask your doctor about crestor. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. by 1995, diana was ready to present evidence pointing to edward elmore's innocence to a state court in south carolina. the goal was to get a new trial for elmore. diana would be joined by chris jensen for what would be her first hearing as a lawyer. >> she was very fierce. she had not the slightest doubt about eddie elmore's innocence. she was determined to make sure that i did my job. >> the state was represented by donald zelenka, who reportedly once argued that women who had abortions in the third trimester could be executed for murder. and elmore's fate would be decided by judge ernest kinard. one of the first witnesses called was james gilliam, the inmate who said elmore confessed to him in jail. but in the small town of greenwood, both elmore and gilliam knew bishop spearman. and before the hearing, gilliam told spearman the truth. >> james gilliam and i go back i guess all our life. one night he called me and he told me i lied and my conscience is bothering me. >> gilliam said he made a deal with the prosecutor to testify against elmore in exchange for release from prison. but with elmore facing the electric chair, he felt bad what he had done. >> i said james, make it right. and i got excited. i felt like once this comes out that ed would be free. >> gilliam said the testimony that i gave in these prior trials was false. that he made up this story to try to get better treatment for himself on his criminal sentence. >> gilliam would go on to state that the only thing elmore had ever said was that he didn't kill dorothy edwards. but diana's team also felt they needed to refute dorothy edwards' time of death which the medical examiner had placed on saturday night during the only hours elmore had no alibi. diana hired forensic expert jonathan arden. >> in my opinion the victim died in the early afternoon on sunday. that time frame makes sense with the rigor mortis, the lack of decomposition. but when the state's medical examiner was asked, why did you recommend the time of death be 65 hours prior to the time of discovery, given all the evidence of the rigor mortis, the lack of decomposition, she said under oath, because that's what they told me. the police told me that's when they thought it happened. >> but even with all the evidence in elmore's favor, diana and jensen knew the biggest hurdle would be explaining the blood on elmore's pants to the court. >> blood that was supposedly found on pants and shoes matched the blood type of mrs. edwards. and this was very difficult testimony to rebut. >> as jensen cross-examined the state's blood expert, diana went through the testimony and made a key discovery. evidence lists showed elmore's pants had passed through eight different people before the trial. >> i jumped out of my chair. i start whispering to chris jensen, ask him what this means and who these people are and what that is supposed to represent. >> one name on the list jumped out at diana. thomas henderson was a state police agent who grew up across the street from dorothy edwards and james holloway and was friendly with both. >> tom henderson had nothing to do with forensic investigation at all. nothing. he wasn't supposed to be involved in the case anyway because these were people he knew his whole life long. >> there was really no reason for him to have removed these things from the laboratory. we were arguing that this evidence had in all likelihood been tampered with and quite conceivably that mrs. edwards' blood had been put on the garments. >> it would now be up to the judge to rule whether or not elmore deserved a new trial. the decision would take four months to come down. >> we presented all this great evidence. we're very excited. we're stoked. then comes the judge's order and the cover letter said edward lee elmore may well not be guilty, but that will be for an appellate court to find. >> judge kinard had left elmore's fate up to other judges to decide. >> i became literally hysterical, completely sobbing. running, i threw it at john blume. what the hell is the matter with you? >> john blume had assigned elmore's case to diana as an intern. >> i was stunned. i had really expected that he would grant relief because they had presented a compelling case of mr. elmore's innocence. >> diana was discovering that proving elmore's innocence was not enough. to get a new trial, elmore's team would have to prove that elmore's constitutional rights had been violated. >> a person can be innocent but as long as they get a fair trial, that's all they're entitled to. well, that begs the question. is it a fair trial if somebody has lied? >> diana's team immediately appealed judge kinard's decision to the south carolina supreme court. but in the meantime, the state prosecutor, donald zelenka had discovered that diana had a secret that if exposed could destroy her career and damage elmore's case. he would soon call her to a deposition. >> donald zelenka asked have you ever done anything in the course of your life that would reflect poorly on the legal profession? and i said yes. ♪ ♪ so you can have a getaway from what you know. so you can be surprised by what you don't. get two times the points on travel and dining at restaurants from chase sapphire preferred. so you can taste something that wakes up your soul. chase sapphire preferred. so you can. ♪ aflac, aflac, aflac! ♪ [ both sigh ] ♪ ugh! ♪ you told me he was good, dude. yeah he stinks at golf. but he was great at getting my claim paid fast. how fast? 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[ male announcer ] find out how fast aflac can pay you at aflac.com. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. while edward lee elmore sat on death row, waiting for his appeal to move forward, diana holt took on other death penalty cases. in one she was able to get a last-minute stay of execution over the objections of assistant attorney general donald zelenka. zelenka was determined to discredit diana. he dug through her past looking for anything to get her off the case. in april 2000, he called her to a deposition. >> it was at the attorney general's office. there were six attorneys across the table from me and all of them lined up like this. looking. don zelenka asked have you ever done anything in the course of your life that would reflect poorly on the legal profession? and i said yes. >> diana feared that if her story became public, it would ruin her reputation and destroy elmore's chances for a new trial. in 1975 at the age of 17, diana ran away to new orleans with a few friends. >> it was a horrible time. my sister had been taken away by the state of texas. it had to do with sexual abuse that i suffered. i was 17. i didn't know how to deal with stuff like that. so i left. i met these three people. went to new orleans with them and after a little bit, i wanted to go home. i didn't have any money and there was a plan. so i went to the french quarter, started talking to this guy. and the ruse was that i would exchange sex for money. we left bourbon street together, got in his car and one of the two guys came in. he got on the passenger side. i was scrunched in the middle. >> diana's friend pulled a gun and demanded money. the driver gave them $60. they jumped out of the car and ran. >> made it about three blocks. pulled over by the new orleans police department, up against the wall. the victim was a u.s. marshal. it's like dumb and dumber a little bit. what do you expect from an air head 17-year-old? i pled guilty to armed robbery and off i went to the louisiana correctional institute for women. one day, the prosecutor in my case came to the prison to visit and he said, i just want you to know that you don't have to be what you did that day, and you can make it, and you can be somebody. and i'm still -- why wouldn't every prosecutor want to do that? >> diana began studying in the prison's law library, researching cases of fellow inmates and sending letters to the presiding judges. she even had one woman's sentence reduced. >> doing the few things that did that made an impact, i want more of that. i want to do more of that. i want to help people like that. >> a model prisoner, diana was released in 1977 with a full pardon. the whole episode became a distant memory until donald zelenka confronted her with it nearly 25 years later. >> i was like, you know what? you opened the door. i'm walking through it. let's do this. i'm going to tell it all. not just the part you want to hear. >> but the judge in the case, visibly disgusted by zelenka's tactic, disallowed the deposition. diana could continue her fight for elmore's life. at elmore's trial, prosecutor willie t. had claimed that negroid hair had been found on dorothy edwards' body. when the defense had petitioned to see the hair, it had gone missing. now 16 years later, the hair suddenly turned up. >> the prosecution has an obligation to turn over to the defense anything which is favorable. in this case, they didn't do it at the time of trial. >> as it turns out, none of the hairs were negroid at all. they were all caucasian hair, and they did not belong to mr. elmore. >> and that should be sufficient to warrant a new trial. >> we got all excited. asked for the judge to set a hearing. it was december 20th or 21st. we were going to have christmas beyond all christmases. >> on december 21st, 2000, a new hearing was held. if a new trial were to be granted, elmore could be released on bail and join his family for the holidays after more than 18 years on death row. >> all rise. >> judge ernest kinard again presided, the same judge who had stated that elmore may well not be guilty. >> lab corps has sent us a report indicating there are hairs from someone other than dorothy edwards and there were no hairs of anyone of african-american descent. >> he acknowledged the evidence should have been given to the defense but argued only one of the hairs found on dorothy's body had sufficient dna to read. >> we do not dispute the materials recovered from the victim's body at the time of the autopsy. one hair, not hairs. one hair. it was merely another hair in the bedroom. of mrs. edwards. this is a completely different case than what the jury heard. in the final analysis, the question really is if not now, when? if this is not enough to grant somebody a new trial, then when is post conviction relief ever appropriate? >> unexpectedly, rather than adjourn and read the filings before ruling, the judge issued his decision on the spot. >> all motions are denied. >> the judge said, one hair is not enough. i'm out of here. >> in this case, there are a number of things that stink and if you look at it as a whole, it doesn't just stink, it reeks. >> an execution date was set for elmore. he was placed in a high security lockdown cell while awaiting his date with the electric chair. date with the electric chair. now a mere three weeks away. t. great. great. great. great. great. great. great. great. (all) great! i love logistics. after 22 years on death row, edward elmore was in lockdown, a special holding cell for inmates awaiting execution. with only 23 days to go, diana filed a last-minute appeal and got a stay of execution. but this was only a temporary solution. if elmore was to survive, they would need a new strategy. >> the supreme court issued a landmark death penalty decision. >> and a supreme court decision from 2002 gave them an opportunity. >> in a stunning reversal of course, the u.s. supreme court ruled executing mentally disabled criminals is unconstitutional. >> the question was whether elmore was in fact mentally disabled. >> he was tested. and the state department of special needs finds that edward lee elmore is mentally retarded. >> elmore's death sentence was commuted to life in prison. after nearly 28 years, elmore was finally leaving death row. [ screaming ] >> sorry, that's exactly what i did. i get mr. elmore on the phone. i say hey, you're going to be leaving death row. i'm not going to die? no, well, not there. >> elmore's life had been spared. but diana hadn't fought for years to see elmore die behind bars. her team had one last hope to get him a new trial. the u.s. 4th circuit court of appeals would be the highest court ever to hear elmore's case. >> the 4th circuit has the reputation of being the most conservative federal appellate court in the country. so we felt our chances of prevailing were very slight. >> in yet another face-off with donald zelenka, the court's circuit three-judge panel heard oral arguments in september of 2010, and remarkably, they came down hard on zelenka. >> the time of death, we were locking it down because the defendant was seen at 9:30 headed that direction. >> locking down the time of death based on what his alibi was. i thought you locked down time of death by science. >> the judges have moral righteous indignation in their voices and what they're saying. >> you put in evidence there was hairs found on the bed there was a big part of the conviction? >> yes, it was. >> not one photograph was taken of the bed where these hairs were supposed to be. does that make sense to you? >> well, i don't know. >> do you think that makes a difference now that we know he is mentally retarded? >> no, not at all. >> in this case, this is just a constellation of problems. >> even though the judges seem to be raising some serious questions, i came out of the argument feeling negative about our prospects. i didn't think the court had much incentive to overturn his conviction. >> we didn't hear anything for month after month. 14 months went by. and then i get an e-mail in my inbox. heart stops. i start hyperventilating. i clicked on it, and the opinion is 190-something pages long. and where is the good part? >> the most conservative appellate court in the nation had ruled 2-1 that elmore deserved a new trial. >> everyone in the death penalty community, what happened? we don't win like that, and not there. but we did. >> the state was reluctant to retry the case, knowing the evidence the defense had unearthed could implicate both police and prosecutors. so they offered elmore a plea bargain. >> and the prosecutor asked is there anything short of outright dismissal of all charges that we can do to settle this matter? and i said in fact there is. he goes free at the bond hearing, and he is going to continue to say the truth he said all of these years, i'm innocent. and the prosecutor said okay. >> but the plea required that elmore say in open court that the state could likely prove their charges against him at a trial. it wasn't the exoneration they were hoping for, but it would mean freedom. >> new tonight, he was once on death row. now he is a free man. after 30 years, edward elmore was released from prison today. >> oh, thank the lord. give me a minute. i'm a little overwhelmed right now. just so excited, i couldn't hardly speak. locked up all them years something i didn't do, and comes along, she believed in me. >> were you afraid of dying? >> not in a way, but like i say, i knew the truth would eventually come out, right. that's kept me going. it kept my faith right, and just taking it one day at a time. that's all you can do, you know, and hope and pray that everything come out all right. >> mr. elmore had been incarcerated for 11,000 days. the judge told mr. elmore that he had exhausted his sentence and he was free to go. you are free to go, mr. elmore. >> we could walk him out that door of the courtroom and down those steps as a free man. and that was -- i'm sorry. that was the best moment of my life as an attorney. >> elmore moved back in with his sister, and has begun the process of adjusting to a world very different from the one he left. >> so much had changed, you know, since -- trying to get used to everything. still trying to adjust to things. it's so technical, right, phones and computers and all that stuff. it's really, really hard. i'm trying to learn how, you know. i'm trying to cope with it. >> eddie's case taught me a lot of things about our justice system. it taught me to be distrustful, skeptical. geography can make the difference. money, of course. gender, of course. race is the one that is just a dagger to the heart. but it also taught me to never give up on it. that even 30 years later, someone will listen. as long as you don't give up, justice is possible. good evening. we begin with breaking news. it comes from china, which is especially interested in loca locating the airliner. these were taken on high definition cameras on the morning of march 9, a day and night after the boeing 777 vanished. three images in the open ocean, each showing floating objects. what precisely they are, that remains to be seen, and we should point out there have been false sightings so far. wha
the day almost. >> there was no way i would let this case go. >> there's a body in the water. murdered. >> many people proclaim their innocence. >> in this case there are a number of things that stink. >> this man is remorseless. >> he needs to pay for it with his life. >> the electric chair flashed in front of my eyes. >> get a conviction at all costs. let the truth fall where it may. >> good evening. welcome to carolina. tonight we're coming to you from the city of greenwood, a diverse city and one that has the distinction of having the widest main street in the world. >> greenwood is a very small community. everybody seems to know everybody. we're related to everybody here. it is very tight knit. so when the news came out about this horrendous murder, it was devastating. >> on a cold monday morning in 1982, the bruised and beaten body of 75-year-old dorothy edwards was discovered in this upscale home. >> dorothy edwards, she was just a loved woman in the community, and she had been horribly killed. >> dorothy was known as a graceful and charming woman with a beautiful singing voice and a wonderful sense of humor. [ sirens ] >> the next door neighbor, mr. holloway had noticed a couple of newspapers that had piled up, and he went over to check on her. >> on january 19th, 1982, inside the home holloway told police he found signs of struggle everywhere, a heavy glass ashtray shattered on the living room floor, a pair of bloody ice tongs. dorothy edwards was found dead in her closet. >> the brutality of the crime scene, the blood, the way the body was and the stab wounds postmortem, it was just totally unbelievable. >> dorothy's body had 52 wounds, 11 broken ribs and abrasions on her vagina. >> the state forensic team gathered what evidence was inside the home. hair samples were found on the bed. blood in various places. outside there were some fingerprints. >> a crime scene wiped clean of fingerprints, police believe the killer made a mistake, a thumbprint found on the back door. dorothy's neighbor james holloway told police that edward lee elmore, a 23-year-old handyman worked for dorothy from time to time. although elmore had never been convicted of a felony, police matched his fingerprints from other misdemeanor arrests and issued a warrant to bring him in, accusing him of murder and rape, among lesser charges. greenwood police went looking for elmore 36 hours after dorothy's body was found. >> i was working second shift with the detective division and the call came in saying the suspect was at his girlfriend mary's apartment. i went up and knocked on the door. >> the encounter was not what detective vandenburgh expected. >> i told them that we had a warrant for his arrest. and i told him it was for murder. his demeanor at that time was so nonchalant. oh, okay. which is totally out of context for anybody i've ever dealt with before in a situation like that. no outburst or violent behavior. just like oh, well. >> police took hair and blood samples and placed them in the county jailhouse. even elmore's public defender had doubts about his innocence. >> many people will proclaim constantly their innocence and i cannot remember mr. elmore vociferously proclaiming his innocence. and i got the feeling that there might be something for him to hide. >> elmore's case came to trial only 82 days after his arrest. prosecutors say dorothy had been killed saturday night when elmore was alone and had no alibi. >> you want to find out whether or not mr. elmore had any alibis. and we found none. and mr. elmore, he was not very cooperative. he wouldn't hardly talk to me. >> police found small spots of blood matching dorothy's blood type on elmore's pants and shoes. >> back in the '80s, dna analysis had not been developed. when dna was available, it came back positive that it was the victim's blood. >> prosecutors also told the jury that dozens of elmore's pubic hairs were found on dorothy's bed. and finally, prosecutors presented james gilliam, a prison inmate who claimed to hear elmore confess while he was in jail. >> that came out of nowhere. that just rocked me. mr. elmore told gilliam that i went down there and robbed that lady, and she started screaming and i killed her. that was the lynchpin. >> the jury took less than five hours to reach a verdict. elmore was convicted and sentenced to death. but the conviction was overturned on appeal. >> there was one juror who was reluctant to impose the death penalty. and the trial judge went into the jury room and put pressure on the holdout juror to impose the death sentence. >> a new trial was ordered. same prosecutor, same defense attorneys, same outcome. a third trial was held to reconsider the sentence and again, the decision was unanimous. 36 jurors had determined that edward elmore should be put to death. ♪ 11 years later, a 34-year-old law student named diana holt came to the south carolina death penalty resource center as a summer intern. one of her first assignments was reviewing elmore's case. >> the first time i saw the name, i was reading through the transcript. >> diana started having suspicions that elmore's trials weren't fair. she was troubled that there were no expert witnesses and rarely challenged any of the prosecution's evidence. dine -- diana knew that an incompetent defense was grounds for an appeal. >> i felt like there was something wrong. i needed to meet eddie and give him an eyeball up and down. size him up. >> and who she met wasn't what he expected. >> meeting him, it is just the biggest, sweetest smile, and he is so docile and gentle and quiet and happy. happy. how is he on death row and happy? it just didn't make any sense. there was no way i was going to let elmore's case go. and sav. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 a month? yup. all 5 of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention. there's unlimited talk and text. we're working deals all day. you get 10 gigabytes of data to share. what about expansion potential? add a line, anytime, for $15 a month. low dues, great terms. let's close! new at&t mobile share value plans our best value plans ever for business. 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eight days before the trail began. that's zero time. you can't even read all of the evidence and assess it and crunch it. >> in retrospect perhaps i should have asked for more time. i never have proclaimed to be the best lawyer that ever graced the courtroom. >> overworked and underpaid, mr. anderson also had a reputation as a drinker. >> that's fair. that's a fair accusation. i have had certain, i guess you could say problems with it but i can say this categorically. i was totally clear headed and not drinking during those trials. everyone of them. but on the other hand, you know, i would go out on occasion. i'm not as bad as i used to be. >> in contrast, william t. jones iii, known as willie t., was considered a master of the courtroom. >> willie t.'s track record spoke for itself. he lost very few. he was very dramatic. i've seen that man cry in front of the jury. mr. jones in the courtroom could probably outperform sir lawrence olivier. let's put it that way. >> he could overpower you, overcontrol you, and he was not beyond saying things that he couldn't prove if they weren't challenged. >> early in the first trial, anderson challenged jones by objecting that a single thumbprint was not enough to arrest elmore. >> in order to obtain an arrest warrant, the police obtain an upside down thumbprint on the back outside door frame. that's exactly consistent with cleaning the windows. cleaning the door. that is not probable cause in anywhere else in america that i'm aware of. but willie t. said, oh, well i'm glad you brought that up. the forensic pathologist let us know that she had located negroid pubic hairs on the victim's chest and abdomen. the defense shut their mouths and sat down. >> if elmore's hair had in fact been found on the body, this was a new and explosive claim, a claim that went unchallenged by geddes anderson. >> did you ask to see that evidence? >> you would have to look at the transcript to see. i don't know if i did or not. >> according to the transcript, you did not ask to see that evidence. why would you not have asked to see that evidence? it seems like pretty important evidence. >> well, i don't know how to answer that. i guess you'll have to take some nonanswer to that question. >> mysteriously, the pubic hair willie t. said was found on dorothy's body was never entered into evidence. as opposed to the hairs on the body, a separate group of 49 pubic hairs said to be found on dorothy's bed also raised diana's doubts. >> a lot of people saw the 49 pubic hairs allegedly collected from the victim's bed as the most damaging evidence against mr. elmore. but this item of evidence was a plain baggy like put your kids' sandwiches in when you're packing their school lunch. not sealed with red evidence tape that says evidence, do not tamper. this did not have that on there. >> the evidence bag contained 49 hairs, a number diana found suspiciously close to the number of hairs police pulled from elmore after his arrest. >> there was from what i understand about, 50 to 60 hairs that were collected, either being combed or pulled. >> but if elmore's hair had been found at the crime scene of the nearly 100 crime scene photographs, not a single photo showed hairs on the bed. >> any kind of evidence you collect at a crime scene, the first thing you do is photograph it. >> there was no pictures of the hair on the bed. there was pictures of everything except the most crucial evidence in the case. so it became obvious to me something wasn't quite right. >> the only photo of the bed shows it covered with police camera equipment, contaminating any evidence. the question became, where did the hairs in the baggy come from? >> there was no question they pulled those hairs from his body. they pulled a lot of them. and i don't think they were ever on the bed. i believe it was planted. >> diana was starting to see a pattern. >> there was all this ineffective assistance of counsel. there was no basis for probable cause to arrest mr. elmore anyway, and there was no list of negroid pubic hairs in the original police inventory. there was no item like that. >> as diana dug deep entire the case, a new suspect began to emerge. she thought the next door neighbor who discovered dorothy's body had acted suspiciously. >> really? he put his gloves on before he went to open the door? that grabbed me right away. there's a saying around here, you stand behind what you say. around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look. chalky... not chalky. temporary... 24 hour. lots of tablets... one pill. you decide. prevent acid with prevacid 24hr. sunny or bubbly? 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why i am a going through this? >> you want this court to believe you're always this quiet, don't you? >> well, sir, you asked me something, i answered. >> you want them to believe you're real quiet and polite. yes, sir, no, sir. isn't that right? >> no, sir. >> edward didn't understand what he was talking about. he didn't understand how to defend himself or what to say. >> why did you hit her with this ashtray? >> i didn't hit her with it. >> why did you stick her with this knife? >> i didn't stick her with no knife, sir. >> tell us how it felt when she reached down and jerked these pubic hairs out of you. it hurt, didn't it? >> she didn't jerk them off me. i was not there. >> she tried to get off the bed and get out of there. >> i was not there. >> and you caught her and started pounding her with your fist. >> no, sir. >> stomach and all. >> no, sir. >> did you kick her? >> no, sir. i wasn't there. >> that's all i have to ask you. >> in his closing argument to the jury, willie t. portrayed elmore as a sadistic killer who tortured his victim before beating her to death. but diana thought that the depiction of elmore was highly prejudicial and the evidence riddled with holes. she also thought elmore had done well under the circumstances. >> even under withering cross examination by brilliant willie t., mr. elmore said what he always said, i didn't do it. >> in order to solve the mystery of who did murder dorothy edwards, diana began looking for alternate suspects and she found one in the neighbor who discovered the body, james holloway. >> i read the testimony of james holloway and my head just about spun off my little spindly neck. wow! >> holloway had spent an unusually long period of time at the crime scene before calling the police. >> he goes inside dorothy edwards' house. he sees that wall of blood for the first time, but he doesn't call police. he decides that he is going to go to the other side neighbor and get her to come in the house with him. so he is at the closet door again and he decides to put gloves on. and then opens the door and lo and behold, there she was. really? he put his gloves on before he went to open the door? >> diana was also suspicious that holloway immediately told police who the perpetrator could be. >> he told law enforcement, you know, there was a boy here a couple weeks back who washed her windows. and if you get me her checkbook, i can get his name for you. and that was edward lee elmore. that boy. >> even more surprising was that the police allowed holloway, a possible suspect, to clean the crime scene the day after dorothy's body was found. >> law enforcement turned the crime scene over to jimmy holloway to clean up. he could do whatever he wanted in there. there was no law enforcement presence watching what happened. there was no preservation of the crime scene. >> diana needed answers so she drove 90 miles to greenwood, south carolina, and showed up unannounced at james holloway's front door. >> mrs. holloway answered the door. she led me into the den and he was sitting on his big overstuffed recliner. so i introduced myself, and he proceeded to tell me, well, you know, really, the only one who could kill her and get away with it was me, the way she trusted me. that was one of the toughest moments in my career of not reacting. holy -- he also told me that law enforcement suspected him because all of the neighbors had told law enforcement that he and dorothy had been having an affair for the last 30 years. he told me that dorothy was supposed to go out of town that weekend because she claimed that this guy in tryon, north carolina was going to propose to her that weekend. but somehow she did not get to go on that trip to north carolina that weekend. >> diana realized if holloway was having an affair with dorothy, the motive could be jealous. and holloway's detailed description of what might have happened also raised a red flag for diana. >> he then starts telling me the story of what happened in her house, as though he were an eyewitness. she was just sitting there on her settee watching tv. he came in and he started on her. it took her a good 20 minutes to die. he just went on. and you didn't -- and there wasn't any nudging or prompting. he was relishing talking about all of the things. it was a gully washer of dumbfoundedness that day. >> diana's suspicions about james holloway were never pursued. he passed away in 1994. >> by 1995, elmore had been on death row for more than 13 years. and he had seen many of his fellow inmates put to death. elmore's survival would now depend on diana getting him a new trial. a process diana would launch only 98 days after passing her bar exam. 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(all) great! i love logistics. ♪ ♪ so you can get out of your element. so you can explore a new frontier and a different discipline. get two times the points on travel and dining at restaurants from chase sapphire preferred. so you can be inspired by great food once again. chase sapphire preferred. so you can. by 1995, diana was ready to present evidence pointing to edward elmore's innocence to a state court in south carolina. the goal was to get a new trial for elmore. diana would be joined by chris jensen for what would be her first hearing as a lawyer. >> she was very fierce. she had not the slightest doubt about eddie elmore's innocence. she was determined to make sure that i did my job. >> the state was represented by donald zelenka, who reportedly once argued that women who had abortions in the third trimester could be executed for murder. and elmore's fate would be decided by judge ernest kinard. one of the first witnesses called was james gilliam, the inmate who said elmore confessed to him in jail. but in the small town of greenwood, both elmore and gilliam knew bishop spearman. and before the hearing, gilliam told spearman the truth. >> james gilliam and i go back i guess all our life. one night he called me and he told me i lied and my conscience is bothering me. >> gilliam said he made a deal with the prosecutor to testify against elmore in exchange for release from prison. but with elmore facing the electric chair he felt bad about what he had done. >> i said james, make it right. and i got excited. i felt like once this comes out that ed would be free. >> gilliam said the testimony that i gave in these prior trials was false. that he made up this story to try to get better treatment for himself on his criminal sentence. >> gilliam would go on to state that the only thing elmore had ever said was that he didn't kill dorothy edwards. but diana's team also felt they needed to refute dorothy edwards' time of death which the medical examiner had placed on saturday night during the only hours elmore had no alibi. diana hired forensic expert jonathan arden. >> in my opinion the victim died in the early afternoon on sunday. that time frame makes sense with the rigor mortis, the lack of decomposition. but when the state medical examiner was asked, why did you recommend the time of death be 65 hours prior to the time of discovery, given all the evidence of the rigor mortis, the lack of decomposition, she said under oath, because that's what they told me. the police told me that is when they thought it happened. >> but even with all the evidence in elmore's favor, diana and jensen knew the biggest hurdle would be explaining the blood on elmore's pants to the court. >> blood that was supposedly found on pants and shoes matched the blood type of mrs. edwards. and this was very difficult testimony to rebut. >> as jensen cross-examined the state's blood expert, diana went through the files and made a key discovery. evidence lists showed elmore's pants had passed through eight different people before the trial. >> i jumped out of my chair. i start whispering to chris jensen, ask him what this means and who these people are and what that is supposed to represent. >> one name on the list jumped out at diana. thomas henderson was a state police agent who grew up across the street from dorothy edwards and james holloway and was friendly with both. >> tom henderson had nothing to do with forensic investigation at all. nothing. he wasn't supposed to be involved in the case anyway because these were people he knew his whole life long. >> there was really no reason for him to have removed these things from the laboratory. we were arguing that this evidence had in all likelihood been tampered with and quite conceivably that mrs. edwards' blood had been put on the garments. >> it would now be up to the judge to rule whether or not elmore deserved a new trial. the decision would take four months to come down. >> we presented all this great evidence. we're very excited. we're stoked. then comes the judge's order and the cover letter said edward lee elmore may well not be guilty, but that will be for an appellate court to find. >> judge kinard had left elmore's fate up to other judges to decide. >> i became literally hysterical, completely sobbing. running, i threw it at john blume. what the hell is the matter with you? >> john blume had assigned elmore's case to diana as an intern. >> i was stunned. i had really expected that he would grant relief because they had presented a compelling case of mr. elmore's innocence. >> diana was discovering that proving mr. elmore's innocence was not enough. to get a new trial, elmore's team would have to prove that elmore's constitutional rights had been violated. >> a person can be innocent but as long as they get a fair trial, that's all they're entitled to. well, that begs the question. is it a fair trial if somebody has lied? >> diana's team immediately appealed judge kinard's decision to the south carolina supreme court. but in the meantime, the state prosecutor, donald zelenka had discovered that diana had a secret that if exposed could destroy her career and damage elmore's case. he would soon call her to a deposition. >> donald zelenka asked have you ever done anything in the course of your life that would reflect poorly on the legal profession? and i said yes. if bob were a . but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort, hopefully bob can retire at a more appropriate age. it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. my lenses have a sunset mode. and an early morning mode. and a partly sunny mode. and an outside to clear inside mode. new transitions® signature™ adaptive lenses now have chromea7™ technology making them more responsive than ever to changing light. so life can look more vivid and vibrant. why settle for a lens with one mode. experience life well lit. upgrade your lenses to new transitions® signature™. [ female announcer ] most of the time it's easy to know which option is better. other times, not so much. so it's good to know that mazola corn oil has 4 times more cholesterol blocking plant sterols than olive oil. and a recent study found that it can help lower cholesterol 2 times more. take care of those you love and cook deliciously. mazola makes it better. take care of those you love and cook deliciously. to truck guys, the truck is everything. and when you put them in charge of making an unbeatable truck... ... good things happen. this is the ram 1500. the 2014 motor trend truck of the year and first ever back-to-back champion. guts. glory. ram. while edward lee elmore sat on death row, waiting for his appeal to move forward, diana holt took on other death penalty cases. in one she was able to get a last-minute stay of execution over the objections of assistant attorney general donald zelenka. zelenka was determined to discredit diana. he dug through her past looking for anything to get her off the case. in april 2000, he called her to a deposition. >> it was at the attorney general's office. there were six attorneys across the table from me and all of them lined up like this. looking. don zelenka asked have you ever done anything in the course of your life that would reflect poorly on the legal profession? and i said yes. >> diana feared that if her story became public, it would ruin her reputation and destroy elmore's chances for a new trial. in 1975 at the age of 17, diana ran away to new orleans with a few friends. >> it was a horrible time. my sister had been taken away by the state of texas. it had to do with sexual abuse that i suffered. i was 17. i didn't know how to deal with stuff like that. so i left. i met these three people. went to new orleans with them and after a little bit, i wanted to go home. i didn't have any money and there was a plan. so i went to the french quarter, started talking to this guy. and the ruse was that i would exchange sex for money. we left bourbon street together, got in his car and one of the two guys came in. he got on the passenger side. i was scrunched in the middle. >> diana's friend pulled a gun and demanded money. the driver gave them $60. they jumped out of the car and ran. >> made it about three blocks. pulled over by the new orleans police department, up against the wall. the victim was a u.s. marshal. it's like dumb and dumber a little bit. what do you expect from an air head 17-year-old. i pled guilty to armed robbery and off i went to the louisiana correctional institute for women. one day, the prosecutor in my case came to the prison to visit and he said, i just want you to know that you don't have to be what you did that day, and you can make it, and you can be somebody. and i'm still -- why wouldn't every prosecutor want to do that? >> diana began studying in the prison's law library, researching cases of fellow inmates and sending letters to the presiding judges. she even had one woman's sentence reduced. >> doing the few things that did that made an impact, i want more of that. i want to do more of that. i want to help people like that. >> a model prisoner, diana was released in 1977 with a full pardon. the whole episode became a distant memory until donald zelenka confronted her with it nearly 25 years later. >> i was like, you know what? you opened the door. i'm walking through it. let's do this. i'm going to tell it all. not just the part you want to hear. >> but the judge in the case, visibly disgusted by zelenka's tactic, disallowed the deposition. diana could continue her fight for elmore's life. at elmore's trial, prosecutor willie t. had claimed that negroid hair had been found on the body. but when the defense had petitioned to see the hair it had gone missing. now, 16 years later the hair suddenly turned up. >> the prosecution has an obligation to turn over to the defense anything which is favorable. in this case, they didn't do it at the time of trial. >> as it turns out, none of the hairs were negroid at all. they were all caucasian hair, and they did not belong to mr. elmore. >> and that should be sufficient to warrant a new trial. >> we got all excited. asked for the judge to set a hearing. it was december 20th or 21st. we were going to have christmas beyond all christmases. >> on december 21st, 2000, a new hearing was held. if a new trial were to be granted, elmore could be released on bail and join his family for the holidays after more than 18 years on death row. >> all rise. >> judge ernest kinard again presided, the same judge who had stated that elmore may well not be guilty. >> lab corps has sent us a report indicating there are hairs from someone other than dorothy edwards and there were no hairs of anyone of african-american descent. >> he acknowledged the evidence should have been given to the defense but argued only one of the hairs found on her body had sufficient dna to read. >> we do not dispute the materials recovered from the victim's body at the time of the autopsy. one hair, not hairs. one hair. >> it was merely another hair in the bedroom. of mrs. edwards. this is a completely different case than what the jury heard. in the final analysis, the question really is if not now, when? if this is not enough to grant somebody a new trial, then when is post conviction relief ever appropriate? >> unexpectedly, rather than adjourn and read the filings before ruling, the judge issued his decision on the spot. >> all motions are denied. >> the judge said, one hair is not enough. i'm out of here. >> in this case, there are a number of things that stink and if you look at it as a whole, it doesn't just stink, it reeks. >> an execution date was set for elmore. he was placed in a high security lockdown cell while awaiting his date with the electric chair. now a mere three weeks away. >> i tried my hardest to get him ready for it. and he called me one day and he said, are they going to kill me? i think i told him in the most simple terms i could tell him that they were going to have to take me out first. what if a photo could build that shelf you've always wanted? or fix a leaky faucet? or even give you your saturday back? the new snapfix app revolutionizes local service. just snap a photo and angie's list coordinates a top-rated provider to do the work on your schedule. the app makes it easy. the power of angie's list makes it work. download snapfix for free. you stand behind what you say. there's a saying around here, around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look. after 22 years on death row, edward elmore was in lockdown, a special holding cell for inmates awaiting execution. with only 23 days to go, diana filed a last-minute appeal and got a stay of execution. but this was only a temporary solution. if elmore was to survive, they would need a new strategy. >> the supreme court issued a landmark death penalty decision. >> and a supreme court decision from 2002 gave them an opportunity. >> in a stunning reversal of course, the u.s. supreme court ruled executing mentally disabled criminals is unconstitutional. >> the question was whether elmore was in fact mentally disabled. >> he was tested. and the state department of special needs finds that edward lee elmore is mentally retarded. >> elmore's death sentence was commuted to life in prison. after nearly 28 years, elmore was finally leaving death row. [ screaming ] sorry, that's exactly what i did. i get mr. elmore on the phone. i say hey, you're going to be leaving death row. i'm not going to die? no, well, not there. >> elmore's life had been spared. but diana hadn't fought for years to see elmore die behind bars. her team had one last hope to get him a new trial. the u.s. 4th circuit court of appeals would be the highest court ever to hear elmore's case. >> the 4th circuit has the reputation of being the most conservative federal appellate court in the country. so we felt our chances of prevailing were very slight. >> in yet another face-off with donald zelenka, the court's circuit three-judge panel heard oral arguments in september of 2010, and remarkably, they came down hard on zelenka. >> the time of death, we were locking it down because the defendant was seen at 9:30 headed that direction. >> locking down the time of death based on what his alibi was. i thought you locked down time of death by science. >> the judges have moral righteous indignation in their voices and what they're saying. >> you put in evidence there was hairs found on the bed there was a big part of the conviction? >> yes, it was. >> not one photograph was taken of the bed where the hairs were supposed to be, does that make sense to you? >> well, i don't know. >> do you think that makes a difference now that we know he is mentally retarded? >> no, not at all. >> in this case, this is just a constellation of problems. >> even though the judges seem to be raising some serious questions, i came out of the argument feeling negative about our prospects. i didn't think the court had much incentive to overturn his conviction. >> we didn't hear anything for month after month. 14 months went by. and then i get an e-mail in my inbox. heart stops. i start hyperventilating. i clicked on it, and the opinion is 190-something pages long. and where is the good part? >> the most conservative appellate court in the nation had ruled 2-1 that elmore deserved a new trial. >> everyone in the death penalty community, what happened? we don't win like that, and not there. but we did. >> the state was reluctant to retry the case, knowing the evidence the defense had unearthed could implicate both police and prosecutors. so they offered elmore a plea bargain. >> and the prosecutor asked is there anything short of outright dismissal of all charges that we can do to settle this matter? and i said in fact there is. he goes free at the bond hearing, and he is going to continue to say the truth he said all of these years, i'm innocent. and the prosecutor said okay. >> but the plea required that elmore say in open court that the state could likely prove their charges against him at a trial. it wasn't the exoneration they were hoping for, but it would mean freedom. >> new tonight, he was once on death row. now he is a free man. after 30 years, edward elmore was released from prison today. >> oh, thank the lord. give me a minute. i'm a little overwhelmed right now. just so excited, i couldn't hardly speak. locked up all them years something i didn't do, and comes along, she believed in me. >> were you afraid of dying? >> not in a way, but like i say, i knew the truth would eventually come out, right. that's kept me going. it kept my faith right, and just taking it one day at a time. that's all you can do, you know, and hope and pray that everything come out all right. >> mr. elmore had been incarcerated for 11,000 days. the judge told mr. elmore that he had exhausted his sentence and he was free to go. you are free to go, mr. elmore. >> we could walk him out that door of the courtroom and down those steps as a free man. and that was -- i'm sorry. that was the best moment of my life as an attorney. >> elmore moved back in with his sister, and has begun the process of adjusting to a world very different from the one he left. >> so much had changed, you know, since -- trying to get used to everything. still trying to adjust to things. it's so technical, right, phones and computers and all that stuff. it's really, really hard. i'm trying to learn how, you know. i'm trying to cope with it. >> eddie's case taught me a lot of things about our justice system. it taught me to be distrustful, skeptical. geography can make the difference. money, of course. gender, of course. race is the one that is just a dagger to the heart. but it also taught me to never give up on it. that even 30 years later, someone will listen. as long as you don't give up, justice is possible. up next, a young man falls an
lumpur friday afternoon with 239 people onboard. it has not been seen since. more than two full days later. the airline is dealing with the families of the passengers both in malaysia and china. but they have little information beyond the incredibly frustrating, we don't know. airplanes and ships from several countries including the united states are scanning the water off the vietnamese coast for any sign of wreckage, any sign of life. cnn's jim clancy is in kuala lumpur. jim, it is more than 48 hours since that plane and all those people vanished. it is dawning a new day. 6:00 a.m. monday morning. are investigators finding any kind of clues that could give people hope that they at least know the whereabouts of where this plane may have gone down? >> reporter: clues is exactly the right word, deborah. as we look at this story and the way that it's evolving, we keep getting clues. there was an oil slick that has been reported in vietnamese waters. now there's word that there's debris that's been spotted. it is being examined right now. they're trying to ascertain is this pieces of where he issage from flight 370, the malaysian airliner that was en route to beijing from right here at kuala lumpur international airport. the answers thus far have been inconclusive. we've had reports of debris before, but it has not come out to be something that was from the actual airliner. we have other elements of this story that are developing today. at least the airplanes, there'll be about 35 of them, will be in the skies an hour from now. they will be scanning this huge search area in the south china sea. in addition, there are some 40 ships involved. including, as you noted, some u.s. vessels as well as u.s. aircraft. the vietnamese seem to be finding a lot of this because the plane was flying through vietnamese waters. but yesterday we heard that it might have reversed course. it might have changed course and some of the search areas all the way to the malaka straits have been involved now. it's a very expansive search area. but the relatives, the officials here, everyone hoping that somehow, some way, today they will find a clue. deborah? >> and no ping from any black box, correct? >> reporter: there's no sign of any automatic ping coming from the aircraft should it have gone into the sea. again, this is an expansive area. this is a huge area for them to try to cover. they're trying to take it methodically, painstakingly, and somehow give relief to the relatives who've lost their loved ones in this. we have been told that they have been advised to brace for the worst. no one is really expecting good news at this point. but many people would like to see some closure. this has become a major mystery. back to you, deborah. >> jim clancy for us there. thank you so much. moving to question number two. what caused the boeing 777 to vanish? several theories are emerging into why and how the aircraft disappeared. investigators tell us they're now leaning towards the possibility that the plane broke apart in the air. while there's no concrete evidence of terrorism, cnn's richard quest talked earlier about that possibility. >> we shouldn't be necessarily embarrassed by putting the word "bomb" on the table now. because that is in the -- you've even got the ceo of malaysia airlines being asked about that. you've got people now quite openly speculating whether or not this could have been a device of some sort. we're a very long way from making any further conclusions on that. but the evidence, what we know so far, is such. this plane stopped transmitting any information. it disappeared. >> the aircraft stopped transmitting any type of information at 35,000 feet. a fact one aviation expert i spoke to believe indicates that plane may have simply disintegrated. >> trying to make sure that you maintain some kind of contact with the people who can really help you, the ground control people. and you want to keep them advised as much as possible. then when you consider the fact that you've got radio equipment onboard the airplane that sends information realtime, you -- even if you fail to make that call, there would be information going to the ground, letting the ground know that there was a change that was taking place that was not planned before. >> and counting down, question number three. who was on that plane? how did at least two people get onboard with stolen passports? joining me from washington with some fresh insight is rafirahn, president of new age security solutions. he's the former director of security at tel-aviv aport in israel. they're examining additional passports that appear suspicious from passengers. aren't they supposed to see whether passports have been stolen and that the person actually handing in that document is legitimately the owner? >> there are two aspects to this. one is the integrity of the document. in this case the passport. right now we are not very strong on that point because the way we check passports in airports is not extremely technological. and a lot of it is up to the ability of the checker to find any elements of treatment to the document. but in this case there's another aspect which is, perhaps, even more worrying. that is the fact that the two names on those passports were reported already as being stolen documents. stolen passports. and the fact that this information was not used when passengers were screened to board the flight is rather worrying. because a lot of what we do today relies on our ability to identify the passenger correctly. >> right. and usually they can double-check to see what passports have, indeed, been stolen. but it would also suggest that if those were stolen passports, that the photograph may have also been doctored, no? >> that is possible. and this is why some countries, like the u.s., is now printing the doc -- the photo into your passport in a way that cannot be replaced. why most countries including european countries are still using the old method of taking a photograph and laminating it into your passport. and that surely opens the door for the possibility of replacing the picture. >> sure. you move the laminate, put in a new picture. look, we don't know what happened to this plane. we don't know whether there's a possibility it may have been hijacked. but do you think that security needs to now be beefed up at airports around the world, or at least people -- security guards making sure that those passports, you know, are not on some list of stolen passports? >> well, i think that we certainly need to start paying more attention to the real identity of passengers. and that includes running names against lists. we certainly have very long lists of stolen documents that we can identify. and there's always the ability of the officer who does the check to look in the eye and run the short interview when the document is being checked that will support any findings that he may have. >> sure. which is exactly what we see at so many airports throughout europe. it may have been a different standard of security at this particular airport. rafi ron, thanks so much. appreciate it. >> you're welcome. and this week nsa leaker edward snowden will speak to a u.s. audience for the first time since fleeing the country last year. what will he say? 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[ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? i need your timesheets, larry! and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. tensions are skyrocketing in the ukraine crisis. but so far weapons have for the most part stayed silent. question number four, will the ukraine crisis erupt into bloodshed? i want to bring in cnn international's michael holmes in the ukraine. will the ukraine crisis erupt into actual combat as each side gets closer to crimea's controversial vote on joining the russian federation? >> reporter: well, no way to know for sure. but everybody, of course, hopes not, deb. it's certainly been extremely tense in some areas around crimea. they're raising questions really about the state of rule of law. i mean, we've heard of pr pro-ukrainian protesters attacked by pro-russian protesters. no shortage of pictures of roadblocks really by an odd assortment of people. some in uniform. some not. some armed. cars being searched. people really intimidated, having their papers examined, their baggage searched. this is, while not crossing any international frontier, remember, this is while people are technically traveling around within ukraine. they're just going to or from crimea. so some very worrying developments in terms of how people are being treated in crimea and these armed men who seem to be running the show. and very little in the way of official security forces. deb? >> all right, michael holmes for us. erin, the follow question, this could all hinge on a crucial meeting in d.c. this week. who is coming in to talk face to face with president obama? >> reporter: well, deb, the interim prime minister of ukraine is coming on wednesday to meet with president obama. part of that meeting is simply to legitimize him on a world stage and also especially in the eyes of russia. now, that referendum that you referred to, the interim prime minister of ukraine has said that is not legitimate. president obama agrees with him. as do a number of european leaders. and they'll likely talk about how to address that if that vote moves forward and what happens next sunday. ukraine also wants to hold elections in may. president obama will likely talk about how to implement those elections, carry them out, and the assistance that the united states will provide. ukraine wants to hold direct talks with russia. they will talk about how the united states can help facilitate that. also russian president vladimir putin has been speaking with president obama. those talks will continue as will the talks between secretary of state john kerry and russian foreign minister sergei lavrov. and the last thing that the united states will be doing in the next week or so is that legislation has been moving through congress on potential additional sanctions against russia. so we'll likely get some more details on that this week, deb. >> watching all the borders. michael holmes, erin mcpike, thank you so much for us. question number five. will nsa leaker edward snowden dropny surprises when he speaks to thousands of people in texas tomorrow? these are live pictures from austin, the site of the south by southwest interactive film and music festival. that's where snowden is expected to speak via satellite live from russia. cnn's money tech correspondent lori segel is in austin. lori, who invited snowden to speak and why? >> reporter: you know, the aclu has partnered with snowden to put on this talk. it's a pretty big deal. because he hasn't really addressed as many folks as this group of -- this group of people. i mean, this conference is all technologists. so the people that are going to be in the audience are the people that have been affected very much so by these nsa revelations, who are unhappy. and they're going to have the opportunity to actually ask questions. you know, one thing he's going to be addressing is how tech can protect people against mass surveillance. i'll say this, deb. he said before he's only released a little bit of what he's got. so i can imagine a lot of folks are probably going to ask what else do you have? that's probably going to be a conversation happening here. >> my guess is he's probably not going to tip his hand as far as that goes. but clearly he's got enough that the u.s. government very worried about that. but how can he address questions about how to protect tech privacy when he's sort of -- did the greatest invasion of tech privacy of all times, in a way, stealing all that information? >> reporter: you know, it's such an interesting question. now is the opportunity for people to actually ask him those questions. we can have the opportunity to ask those questions. but, you know, one sentiment you really get here at southxsouthwest and what's moving the conversation forward and what we're going to be talking about is the fact a lot of folks are very angry at the government for overreaching. a lot of the tech folks on the ground who are building out this technology. there's also a bit of a tension that sometimes it seems as though washington can't keep up with silicon valley. there are people, this is the conversation people are having. and this probably, you know, what will be addressed, parts of this will be addressed, when snowden speaks. >> yeah. absolutely. knowing when there's an intruder in your system, clearly of crucial importance to anybody who uses any sort of digital device. all right. laurie segall for us, thanks so much. we appreciate it. >> thank you. well, a big week ahead for pope francis. the pontiff will celebrate the one-year anniversary since being elected. what may be in store for year two? 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i mean, i personally love that selfie that he took of himself with some of the people down in st. peter's square. >> yeah. he's had quite a year, like you said. there's a lot of moments that stand out for me. but two that really went viral come to mind. one is the little boy who interrupted him during his talk in vatican city, going up on stage, hugging his leg, sitting in his chair. couldn't even get lured off the stage even with candy. that was a great moment. and the other one, i think, this time last year when the pope went to the roman prison and washed the feet of 12 inmates. this is something the pope normally does. but that's the first time ever he washed the feet of two women inmates. and one of those was a serbian muslim, also a first. these are memorable moments among many. both of which highlight the pope in his best case scenario in roman catholic thought. which is that he is representative of jesus christ. very much acting like jesus christ in both moments. >> what is so clear, and you see it in his response to that little boy, is the humility and the sort of love that he brings to this work that he's doing. he came from simple beginnings. he worked as a bar bouncer and a janitor before he was a priest. do you find him having a much deeper and much different connection to the people that he leads? and how is that impacting this papacy? >> yeah. i think in some ways pope francis is not very different from previous popes. he's traditional and conservative on a lot of the hot button issues. and it's important to point out that these things that we like about him, that has drawn all this attention, he's compassionate, humility, care for the least fortunate, these are also not novel things but classic, traditional markers of christianity. not just catholicism but christianity. these are the things that have endeared him to so many people and have really produced what some people call the francis effect. you know, this massive improving of the public image of the church. which is drastically needed at this particular moment in light of all these church scandals. and he's done this through these -- these virtues of poverty and humility and compassionate ministry. i think for me, that shows that a lot can be achieved even by very, very small changes and renewed emphasis on traditional christian virtues and practices. >> well, he certainly seems much more approachable, much more relatable. and certainly even the fact that he doesn't have the popemobile makes him seem much closer to the people. all right. brent strawn, thank you so much. well, what would it be like to be on death row? 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what did -- what gave you hope? >> well, like i say, mrs. holt, i knew some day the truth will come out, right? hang on to that. good lawyers like mrs. holt. i made it. >> you certainly seem to be an optimist. there are a lot of people on death row, many of them don't have hope. but diana, you found holes in the case. but there was also a suspect, a potential suspect. just take a look quickly. >> in order to solve the mystery of who did murder dorothy edwards, diana began looking for alternate suspects. and she found one in the neighbor who discovered the body, james holloway. >> i read the testimony of james holloway, and my head just about spun off of my little spindly neck. i was like, wow. >> holloway had spent an unusually long period of time at the crime scene before calling the police. >> he goes inside dorothy edwards' house. he sees that wall of blood for the first time. but he doesn't call police. he decides that he's going to go to the other side neighbor and get her to come in the house with him. so he's at the closet door again, and he decides to put gloves on. then he opens the door. and lo and behold, there she was. really? he put his gloves on before he went to open the door? >> you know, you think about that, and you just have to wonder, why didn't investigators look at this man originally? isn't the person who finds the body usually one of the first suspects that's questioned? >> that's accurate. in fact, he was the first suspect. but, again, there was no investigation. mr. holloway is the one who did -- who laid out all the clues and then fed them to police that same day. and they were -- all the clues were set for a time when he had an alibi instead of when the killing actually occurred, which was the next day when we didn't have an alibi. >> and so, sir, mr. elmore, i want to conclude with you. you were on death row for decades. there were a lot of people on death row with you. do you believe that some of them may have gotten a bum deal as well? >> yeah. i really do. i mean, there's been a couple of them i met over the years probably have, you know. so you just have to really look at that, you know. because sometime when they arrest a person, they don't really -- you know, they don't really do a thorough investigation right. sometime they just want to clear the books or whatever. the person look like he may be, you know, they just go ahead and say, okay, well, you know. like i say, there have probably been some that probably, you know, were. >> mr. elmore, you got a second chance at life. diana holt, your guardian angel there? >> yes, ma'am. >> you better say that. >> yes. >> all right. well, both of you, diana holt, edward lee elmore, thank you so much. and coming up, a sad truth about a man put to death for killing his kids. new evidence ten years later has revealed that he may have been innocent. that's next. what does everything mean to you? with the quicksilver cash back card from capital one, it means unlimited 1.5% cash back on everything you purchase, every day. it doesn't mean, "everything... as long as you buy it at the gas station." it doesn't mean, "everything... until you hit your cash back limit." it means earn 1.5% cash back on every purchase, every place, every occasion, all over creation. that's what everything should mean. so consider... what's in your wallet? so i got the new nokia lumia icon. it's got 1080p video, three times zoom, and a twenty-megapixel sensor. it's got the brightest display, so i can see what i'm shooting -- even outdoors, and 4 mics that capture incredible sound. plus, it has apps like vine -- and free cloud storage. my new lumia icon is so great, even our wipeouts look amazing. ♪ honestly, i want to see you be brave ♪ ♪ ♪ honestly, i want to see you be brave ♪ save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.d everybody knows that. well, did you know pinocchio was a bad motivational speaker? 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[ male announcer ] nothing says, "you're my #1 copilot," like a milk-bone biscuit. ♪ say it with milk-bone. he always maintained that he was innocent. that didn't prevent cameron todd william from being executed in texas. found guilty of murdering his three children. william was sentenced to death a year after he was convicted of setting this house fire which killed his three young daughters. although the arson investigation was found to be flawed, information from a jailhouse informant sealed williams' fate. newly discovered evidence shows the case wasn't as cut and dried as once thought. joining me now, bryce van jet. an attorney for the innocent project. cnn's senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor jeffrey toobin. bryce, walk us through the new evidence that you've got. >> we've discovered really three kind of smoking gun documents in this case. the first is a handwritten note that was on the navarro district attorney's file that says that this witness who had testified that willingham confessed was given a deal. it says based on cooperation, willingham was given a lesser charge. we have another note typewritten associated with this prosecutor that says the same -- essentially the same thing. that if the prison calls, tell him he got a lesser charge than he testified to. then finally we have a letter that was written by this same gentleman who had then become a district judge, which appears to have provided inaccurate information about this same incentivized witness. >> basically the informant cut a deal to lie is what you're saying. something to that effect. that's what the evidence shows? >> absolutely. >> which is always tricky when you're dealing with an informant. because they've got a reason to, perhaps, make prosecutors happy, to get a better deal for themselves. jeff, if this man is found innocent ten years after he is executed, what does that mean for the justice system? isn't this sort of at the heart of the death penalty debate? >> well, todd willingham has been proven innocent already. anyone who may have read david grant's famous new yorker story about this has to know that an innocent man was executed. now, this is icing on the cake, this bad deal. this secret deal that was just uncovered by the innocence project. but if you look at this case in full, it's like a petri dish of everything that can go wrong. you have phony witnesses. you have junk science. the arson science in this case was a total outrage. so, you know, this is exhibit "a" when people claim innocent people have never been executed. because cameron todd willingham was innocent. >> okay. well, i want you to hold your thoughts for just a second. >> cameron todd willingham charged with arson hods fmicide a fire that took the lives of his three little girls was facing a death sentence. he was counting on this man to save him. did you think todd willingham was guilty? >> after i had seen all of the evidence, it was overwhelming that he was guilty. >> reporter: david martin was one of willingham's court appointed defense lawyers at his 1992 trial. so keeping them honest, what exactly did martin do to defend willingham? the prosecution had two arson investigators on the stand to prove that willingham was guilty. did you have an expert testify? >> we couldn't find one who said that it wasn't arson. >> reporter: couldn't find one. but since the trial, nine. that's right. nine different arson experts have concluded the fire was not arson. what evidence did you present to help defend willingham? >> what evidence would you have us present? the witnesses withere dead, the kids. every time you cross examine a witness you're presenting evidence. >> reporter: martin says he did his best. but admits he believed the prosecutor's experts who said they found patterns on the floor indicating an accelerant had been poured. nine experts said it was not. she alerted both the prosecution and defense her family was friendly with the deputy fire marshal who's testimony helped send willingham to death row. today would that be cause for a mistrial? >> no. >> not a conflict of interest? >> in a small town like corsicana, lots of people knew doug fog. i don't know the details about the jury selection. don't know why she wasn't stricken. let's say she was friends with doug fog. >> reporter: so what? >> so what? look at the evidence that was presented at trial. would any reasonable mind conclude after the presentation of the evidence that he was not guilty? >> reporter: she now has doubts and doesn't sleep at night. she wonders if todd willingham really was guilty. >> she need have no doubts, in my mind. he really was guilty. and it doesn't matter how many people talk about it. the evidence is irrefutable. >> reporter: you sound like the prosecutor. not the defense lawyer. >> what is it people expect the defense lawyer to do? i've said this before. just go in and swallow the story? no. >> randi kaye, cnn, austin, texas. >> you heard it. even willingham's own defense attorney believed that he was guilty. next, more from my guests and what this possible exoneration means for others who are sitting on death row. so i get invited to quite a few family gatherings. heck, i saved judith here a fortune with discounts like safe driver, multi-car, paperless. you make a mighty fine missus, m'lady. i'm not saying mark's thrifty. let's just say, i saved him $519, and it certainly didn't go toward that ring. am i right? 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[phones rings] okay, i'll send it. one hundred seventy-two dollars for a chemistry book, what is it, made of gold? just use citi popmoney. boom. ah, she's feeling lucky. hey sweetie...cancun, yeah no, you'll be spending spring break with your new chemistry book. with citi popmoney it's easy to send money to just about anyone, anytime. visit your local branch or citi.com/easierbanking to learn more. in the coming weeks, the family of cameron todd willingham hopes that there will be good news. it has been ten years since willingham was executed and newly found evidence in his case may make him the first person to be exonerated after death. this case was heard in texas. back with me, bryce benjet, an attorney for the innocence project. cnn's senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor jeffrey toobin. before the break you heard willingham's own attorney still insist his client was guilty. that aside, isn't a defense attorney supposed to mount the best possible case to get their client off? you have a lot of defense attorneys there. they can't all believe their clients are innocent. isn't it incumbent upon them to give them the right kind of trial to at least attempt to get them off? jeff? >> sure. they are -- every defendant is entitled to zealous advocacy. you know, you can argue about how zealous the defense was in this case. but what's really important is how bad the evidence was in this case. you know, combining two of the worst kind of evidence that you can present. one is so-called jailhouse confessions. which are notoriously unreliable. now we know there was a secret deal. but also since the advent of dna evidence, the other kinds of so-called forensic science is often junk science. and the arson investigators here were peddling junk science to the jury. and that's whied y ed ttodd wil died. >> so is it the jury's fault, then? or is it the prosecution for basically throwing something in front of the jury that seemed legitimate that, in fact, had no legitima legitimacy? bryce? >> look at the era and the place where this was tried. i don't think anybody in that county believed that this arson testimony was false. we've had years of lawyers and scientists looking at this. we've had incredible support by large law firm shulty roth zable, a great team of volunteer lawyers working on this. we've discovered this evidence was actually false. now we've discovered that document showing the corroboration was also false. >> the one thing i do want to point out is, look, not everybody on death row is innocent. there's got to be some threshold that you look at to say, we need to review this case. it doesn't make sense. there's at least some possibility that this person did not commit the crime. so i don't want to lump everybody together and make it appear that, you know, everybody who's on death row has a legitimate argument why they shouldn't be on death row. >> they might have a legitimate argument that they shouldn't be on death row even if they are guilty. i mean, as far as i can tell, the vast majority of people on death row are guilty of the crimes for which they're charged. but if they -- but that doesn't answer the question of whether they should be executed. are they the worst of the worst? did they get the kind of representation in the penalty phase of their case that they should have? so, you know, it's one thing to say people are guilty, as certainly most are. but it's a very different question to say they should be executed. because that threshold should be considerably higher. >> there's also the issue, obviously, about mental illness. because a number of people on death row are also mentally ill. is that a just system? talk about the willingham case a little bit more. in terms of this -- this confession, did the prosecution, did they just go into it guns blazing to make sure that this outcome was the outcome that they wanted from the very beginning? did they stop for a moment to question what the motive of a father in killing three children could possibly be? >> i think that there's always this risk that that kind of thing will happen. that a prosecutor is convinced of a defendant's guilt and does whatever it takes to get the conviction. in this case, we're not sure what happened. and that's why we're asking for an investigation. this has been now ten years after the execution. and there are very basic questions that have not been answered. we're asking the board of pardons and paroles in texas, governor perry, to take another look. because the information provided to them at the time we now know was just not accurate. >> the sad truth is, when children die, when family members die, parents are always the top suspect. now, we don't ever want to believe that, but that -- that's just the truth. and so i don't fault the prosecutors for looking at willingham as a suspect. but the problem with being a prosecutor can be, you start to become committed to your own case. and don't want to be dissuaded when there's contradictory evidence. that's the real risk in being a prosecutor. >> i've been around a lot of lawyers. sometimes i feel that there's always sort of a black and white argument to their case. that it's either all one way or all the other. this whole sense of nuance -- jeff, you and i have covered a lot of cases together. we've sat there when we think it's going one way and then it goes the other way. it's fascinating to watch. you can't ever really know. which goes not to the question of guilt, but to perhaps the -- >> well, this is the great contribution that the innocence project has made. because dna evidence is scientifically valid evidence. so we do -- you can know. you can know if semen found at the scene comes from one person or not from that person. you can know blood, skin, hair. what that proves is what so much else that we have supposedly relied on, hair and fiber evidence, ballistic evidence, arson evidence, is lousy. so, i mean, there are black and white cases. and unfortunately they often are -- turn out the wrong way. >> just so we know, because there are thousands on death row, but, bryce, how many people has the innocence project been able to get off of death row because there was evidence that just suggested they didn't do the crime? >> i don't have the exact number of death row. there have been 312 dna exonerations in this country since we've been doing forensic testing. the innocence project has been involved in roughly half of those. again, when you look at questions about innocence, truth is often stranger than fiction. and the validity and the strength of dna is that it's science. and we can find out the answers. >> no question. >> jurors have been more reluctant to impose the death penalty in recent years. the death penalty is going down. in large part, i think, because they are worried about sentencing the wrong people to death because of the -- >> the death penalty is so controversial that now even drug manufacturers that have been providing the drugs have basically said they're not going to provide it if used for lethal injection. bryce benjet, jeffrey toobin, thanks so much. we appreciate all your insights on this very interesting story. thank you. >> thank you. well, a program note. don't miss the premiere of cnn's original series "death row stories" tonight 9:00 eastern and pacific right here on cnn. coming up at the top of the hour, we're digging into the disappearance of a malaysia airlines passenger plane and the two people who were on the plane two people who were on the plane with stolen passports. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com ♪ led to the one jobhing you always wanted. at university of phoenix, we believe every education- not just ours- should be built around the career that you want. imagine that. i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. cnn tom foreman's takes us on an american jury and shows us how the snow melt is turning into a blessing for america's farmers. >> reporter: through all the bitter cold and blowing snow, through the misery and madness, the long running winter has brought long-awaited water. and the head of the maryland farm bureau, chuck frey, says after some dry years, that's a big relief. >> whether it's a dairy farmer on the east coast or whether you live in d.c. or wherever you live, your food comes from a farm. it's all hedged upon that water. >> reporter: winter water counts? >> absolutely, it counts. >> reporter: as a rule, every 20 inches of snow will melt into just one inch of water. that may not seem like much. but a year ago, well over half the country was in drought conditions. now the dry spots are down to around 35%. that's mainly in the west. places like california. >> they are not going to even get to normal by the time their wet season ends later this spring. >> reporter: in simple terms, it comes down to this. with enough snow and enough rain, a farm like this can more than double its output of corn and soybeans and so much else. so as john sewell prepares for planting. >> i hope it does this in the summertime. not snow. but precipitation. >> reporter: if this keeps up. >> yes. if this keeps up, that would be fantastic. that's what we all hope for. >> reporter: high hopes amid the high waters that winter is leaving behind. tom foreman, cnn, maryland. you are in the "cnn newsroom." i'm deborah feyerick in for don lemon. we are keeping a close eye on what's happening overseas this hour where search crews are frustrated and hundreds of families are growing more and more distraught. we are talking about the commercial airliner that just vanished this weekend somewhere on its scheduled flight from malaysia to china. the airplane is missing. the fate of 239 peo