time period referring to the regular army. there's a joke that the old army is the army before every war. so there's a bunch of old army. so my book actually starts with the professionalization of the army and it's about how that process occurs and plays out in the civil war. >> host: give us a snapshot of what the old army, prior the war of 1812, was like. >> guest: before the war of 1812, and this is drawing on really historical literature by historians -- the army before the war of 1812 is a nonprofessional. it over corps obtained their positions through political influence, and as a consequence they're not -- because they're not professionals who went through a body of education and were promoted by some system of merit, they don't perform very well during the war of 1812 so washington, dc burned. the early attempts to invade canada don't go very well. they're all catastrophes. my impression the canadians look at the war of 1812 victory, sort of a great victory of repelling the american invaders. after the war of 1812 you have a big movement that there needs to be a systemic way of selecting and preparing officers to be in the army, to be commanders, basically. >> host: who spearheaded the change after 1812? >> guest: the crucial figure is scott. a wonderful figure. his career begins before the war of 1812, and extended right until the opening of the civil war when he finally retires. but he -- jacob brown, a few other officers, but scott is the most important. they become very much -- their agenda very much is to build a proper professional institution and take expertise, usually european, usually french, and bring it to the united states. so, another major figure of this would be astaire, who was sent on a mission to france, basically to collect information about military education. he collects huge numbers of books and material. comes back to west point, and with the support of people like scott -- scott becomes a permanent general during the war of 1812 -- he is able to systemize the west point curriculum and experience that been the had not been the case before. >> host: when was west point founded? >> guest: 1802. i think historians still argue about what thomas jefferson was really after when the school was founded. but no one disagrees the school is institutionally weak, unclear what the purpose of the institution is. there's not very systemized instruction. cadets are older, some younger, and to this day he is called the father of west point because he puts it on sounder foundation and and that's the army that will produce the armies of the civil war and where all these -- most of the war generals get their initial professional experience. >> host: well, professor, the title is, west pointers and the civil war. who are some of the west pointer who we have heard of that were generals in the civil war, both sides. >> guest: generally most of the famous ones. sherman, grant, lee, hood, all -- about -- to give you a harder number, there are some -- there are few famous nonwest pointers, wade hampton, stonewall jackson is a west pointer, two-thirds of major generals involved, are veterans at least of the regular army, and the regular army really is dominated by west point. west point is about -- it's not only that most officers in the regular army are graduated of west point. it's kind of the focal point of much of the armies professionalism. so when they do for example, review boards for things like new tactics they'll use the cadet as guinea pigs and have them march around and use thest point library. they have a -- the only historical library available where this stuff is at. but if we think of the big three, lee, grant, sherman, stonewall jackson, longstreet, all west pointers and all have gone through that experience. >> host: when it comes down to the civil war you have generals on the south, generals on the north who have been train in the same ways. what does that do to some of the conflicts? >> guest: for me the most important thing that happens -- the most important end result of that is that the wars are fighting clones of each other because their leadership models, they're experiences are similar. what happens is that the armies are locked in what i call an equilibrium of competence. they're fighting mirror images of one another. the war done end in '61, first bull run, doesn't end in '62, '63. takes until 1865 and it's a long process, and it's partly because the army, since they start out with very similar institutional models, they learn at similar rates. so they both get much better. but they get better at about the same pace. so, you can still have a battlefield decisions. obviously the north wins. but the -- a lot of times in military history, when you see the big spectacular victory, like napoleon where he destroys the entire army in one blow. during the civil war you have better generals and worst generals. the institutions are similar, and the advantages they can get at each occasion -- at chancellorville, lee can't quite truly destroy the entire federal army. partly because these armies are so similar at such a similar level of competence and proficiency. >> host: so, what one of the goals of every -- of the big battles we fought, was one of the goals an end-all? >> guest: yes -- >> host: type focus? we're going to win the war here? >> guest: that is the hope. >> host: was that taught at west point? was that type of strategy taught? >> guest: one of the curious ironies busy this, west point is -- this is part of the problem. west point, because of thayers influence, west point doesn't teach much strategy. the teach cadets how to be junior officers, and the service academy to this day, we prepare our midshipmen not to be admirals but second lieutenantss and ensigns, and what point the basic grounding and the basic building blocks of military expertise, and gives them lot of engineering, probably more than they need in all honesty. so, the desire for a -- comes from more of a cultural affinity for napoleon. napoleon has -- mclelland is likened to napoleon. he sometimes strikes napoleonic pose, and there are wars where, of course, the ironies is they lose it but there are these battles where he has these crushes decisive victories and that is in many ways the model of what most west point generals are hoping to achieve. later in the war this becomes problematic and you have sherman who comes up with interesting alternatives. but much of the public and the officer corps on both sides, you want to completely destroy your opponents in the field. not just make them retreat and not just inflict more characters -- casualties but to actually crush them. >> host: what about counterinsurgency, were those adapted during the civil war? who were some of the more -- those that maybe broke out of the mold of their training at west point. >> guest: there are definitely guerrillas, and they are especially vexatious for union military logistics. but the problem for guerrillas -- this has interest comes from recent american issues over seas for lack of a better way of putting it. i would say, though, it would be a mistake to overstate the influence of guerrillas, because guerrillas deny conventional military, harass logistics but can't physically control the terrain. the confederacy doesn't want the entire american south to be a teaming -- something like syria. that's not the goal that the confederates are after. they want to control the territory the way a proper nation state government can. and there are variety of reasons for that. social, cultural, slavery, a form of property that requires a basic level of social stability. as you see in the civil war, because slaves are property in this regime but the reality is they're always human beings and people and they can run away and do things of evading restriction in a way that physical property normally can't. so, the confederacy is always going to be unable really to really reliablily on guerrillas as the main effort because the point of that is to have an environment of social chaos. you also have -- i use this anecdote at the beginning of the book. the officers of the regular army have a lot of experience at irregular warfare. they haven't it from fighting indians. part of the cop sequence of the experience, people like lee have to chase indians in texas -- they actually have a powerful distaste for it. it's politically and often controversial. indians refuse to stand and fight like proper soldiers. it becomes frustrating. a lot of times the army's methods of dealing with is are finding indian villages and attacking, and the army finds this very distasteful but this is what it usually does. so when they get the big war they're looking for in many ways, they're going to want to stick to a big war of the classic civil war battle. so at the end of the civil war, i have a story where one of lee's most talented officers, alexander, when at it clear -- its clear the army in northern virginia will no longer be able to continue the wear, alexander proposes to disburse the mens and go into the bush and fight as guerrillas, and lee basically rebukes him in the way lee does, politely but everyone knows what he is saying, and alexander says if we do that the countryside will be filled with chaos, all these troops will loose their discipline, start preying on the civilian occupation. i'm going to surrender and see what happen, and alex describes himself as sheepishly never mentioning the idea again. so, that means you do have guerrilla in federal occupied areas. missouri is the most famous example. that becomes a promise of federal logistics and we would now call the counterinsurgency methods. block houses to protect railroads. the army becomes proficient in occupation duties dealing with maintaining severely order. -- civil order, but the civil war is still a war of these large battles. >> host: professor, between 1812, the war of 1812, civil war, 1861, by 1861, did the u.s. -- the north or the south -- have a professional army? they did. the problem with -- the united states had one and it's very small and very successful in the mexican war. that's a crucial time. but the big problem is in 1861 the army is all 16,000 -- a little over 16,000 officers and men, and then the officer corps was split. so there is a professional army but it's core cadre is small, and it has to be disbursed again, and for that reason the early american armies during the civil war are actually quite poor, really, this their proficiency. they learn quickly but they -- they learn the hard way, really. and that's one of the reason west pointers are powerful in their prominence because they're the only people with any kind of expertise and they're immediately relied on quickly and they're given a disproportionate amount of influence. the irony again is most of these -- the only -- scott con conquers mexico city with an army that range 10 or 11,000. this is a third of a size of mcdowell's army at first bull run and much smaller than the armies at places like gettysburg, and scott this only person with experience but he is too old to take the field. all the future civil war generals are officers who -- their only experience with what we would call major combat operations is the mexican war, and after that all they did was fight indian s on the front -- frontier so their expertise is also terribly deficient but it's better than what everyone else harks which is nothing. so, there is a small professional army, but the army of the union and the confederacy produce cannot be described as professional, i would say, until probably 1862. >> host: , if you teach this book here at the naval academy, if you teach your own book here at the naval academy, what do you want students to leave with? >> guest: for me, i don't teach the book because of fears of -- you never want to be that professor who is so obviously trying to sell books with a captive audience. i think for me the biggest theme i try to get across is the civil war -- the big picture theme, especially -- this is -- especially for midshipmen, there's at times a collision between the way a country wants to fight a war and how it ended up actually having to do so. in the case in my book in 1861 the belief in the united states and the union confederacy is you don't really need professional military expertise. that's why the armis kept so small in time office crisis, good citizen soldiers will step forward and through their native virtue and courage, will find a way -- they actually defeat military forces because they have freedom and courage on their side. what happens is very quickly the shortcomings of this become increasingly clear, that in fact war and military affairs actually retire the body of systemic expertise, involving issues of competence or bravery. and west pointers are there -- they're the only people with the concrete military expertise, and they, therefore, have to build it on the fly, and in the north it causes problems because these west pointers are a lot of times politically less enthusiastic about emancipation. and then political leadership, especially in the north, becomes increasingly suspicious of them, partly because they know their politics are different, they're also wedded to this idea we don't really need professionals because we just rely on the native virtue of americans, and a lot of the story of the war is how the volunteers do step forward, they take tremendous losses but that is insufficient. and you have to have the professional expertise but there becomes a degree of social conflict over this, and it sort of -- at least in the case of the north, it works out, but leads to a lot of friction, and it's because war is not just a war phenomenon. it also involves expertise, and these are the types of things that are relevant to people who are going to become professional officers. >> wayne hsieh, the author of this book, "west pointers and the civil war: the old army in war and peace." booktv is on location in annapolis, maryland. >> tell us what you think about our programming this weekend: booktv, nonfiction books, every weekend. on c-span2. >> here's a look at some books being published this week: a scholar whose work focus 0 probability and uncertainty, provides a followup to his best selling back, i "the black swain" titleed "antifragile pie "historian james c. patterson talks about 1965
economy in ruins what business have they got continuing to govern. by want to welcome to conflict zone thank you tim thanks for having me have your new president saying that he was inaugurating a new democracy this is a man who in that the seven years has shown no inclination to promote democracy in any form whatsoever to suggest that he's going to change them. i think. that's a very correct team to say that he didn't show any inclination to promote democracy what you are talking about is a man that has been a speaker of parliament who should even handedness in parliament for the template for the time he was one we're talking here of a man that lost elections and was happy to accept the results therefrom we're talking of a man who's been individually named and sanctioned by the e.u. first in two thousand and two when the european council expressed serious concerns among about human rights violations by the government of zimbabwe among two hundred seventy three other people absolutely collective responsibility and that's going to council's ban was extended in two thousand and four and two thousand and nine they accused him with them and then got work as a member of the government of engaging in activities that seriously moving democracy respect for human rights law seriously undermine democracy that doesn't sound good for the future that's the you know he's seen the last that which would have been applied to any zimbabwean in that term in we're talking two hundred seventy three members of the establishment so you're basically saying that this moment army the whole of this moment military forces should because the top iraq war then well you're saying the bureaucrats are saying the general is that we're there we're undermining democracy you know how much does it make it already does it went along with this system did its best to extinguish democracy now here and of the narrative that's not correct what's what everybody else got it wrong we'll go around the us which also sanctioned him got it right everybody got what they work in tandem no you know so misunderstood. that's correct the point i'm making is yes they were a human rights violations that's that's goes without saying and yes we're in national building but yes we've taken responsibility was weak went and put in place a new constitution never said any responsibility because nobody's been brought to justice but because it's not a cause because of the cause. of course because of course to what we have a new at which is coming police of national reconciliation where this all of these matters will be dealt with so we do all really yes national recognition of healing yes i think also going to deal with the most serious allegations made against mr monk which came in a two thousand and two u.n. report to the security council it called him the key strategist of an elite group involved in elicit diamond trading if you read that when i read the reports and that report is full of conjecture and innuendo eleanor facts was wherever they were simply calling him the benjamin if you read into an abysmal for an investigation what investigation then you enjoy these allegations what allegations that you were the beginning of all of the goldmans of the reports of the networks which he was a senior figure made money through what he called a variety of criminal activities including theft embezzle meant diversion of public funds and devaluation of goods smuggling false invoicing nonpayment of taxes kickbacks to public officials and bribery him if you had read that report is you want to pretend you did you would not have a presence. in the returns you did but that is my ballistic there's no specific there's no specific allegation what is simply says that when i was an assistant or tell he was the big man it was was the speaker of parliament was the better man for the government of zimbabwe government of zimbabwe that's what the that's what the report says but there's nothing specific the governor is going to investigate it is not even worth investigating he simply is above the law anyway so why if the if why but if they know if they're in the congo or lost some damage or lost money to nangarhar or allegedly they should it's for them to investigate what's theirs but would you visit it's not his moment demos we're talking about here is what it's done so that's ok even if they came from the same democratic republic of congo with a fine and was in its eyes it's not they're not i'm saying it's not our responsibility is to use money to investigate things that happened in the congo when it's not as well as the man in the congo if there most anybody because the the opposition's on and on and on where they are when i'm out in. well multiple operations the many governments organise many governments so let them investigate mr miller do you expect zimbabweans never mind the international community simply to gloss over all this instead of seeking a detailed accounting of what took place or don't you care or don't you simply don't care or don't just say they're out because the rose petals which are which mr man under way in the in the generals are being thrown i mean being fitted with have been fitted with rose petals right now they are heroes including the generals are talking about all were involved in all of this that you're talking about so it means muslims are happy with it with the situation the people that aren't happy as you are really here we're happy however it is i will let you know if we come on to that illuminate but let's talk about the public theater of the last ten days to talk about here mr mugabe wasn't pushed out in order to bring in democracy czars of p.f. had been perfectly happy trashing democracy for thirty five years the thing that brought change was the terrible realisation that mr mugabe was going to bring his wife into the top job and that would have upset all the vested interests in your country people who counted on. coming in to protect their interests and their secrets couldn't now couldn't risk of that now could you couldn't risk that not us of course what people cannot risk is somebody who they thought would to be unstable in who appeared in behaved in a stable way to take over the controls of power in zimbabwe it would establish it would have destabilized the whole country it would have to serve as the region that was the concern that's not the view of did in most veteran of the liberation struggle he was close to mugabe for fifty years he was quite clear the army intervened he said to save zanu p.f. not the country and he was you know this must be not general just because there is a member of the opposition who also is with vested interests in the veteran of the liberation in the latter he said a number of the something is wrong you see he says the armed forces in saturday's opinions and yes will be done he said. the armed forces made up of zanu p.f. members he said not democrats intent on our sharing in a pluralistic system not democrats intent on pushing in a pluralistic system so in other words forget about democracy not just israel in other words which are sense because it is a bitter said old man that's what i'm saying let's not forget for democracy let's forget about what a member of the opposition would say again as and what they plan to impose will go on saying that the move forward of even at the swearing in ceremony there were people were taken a look at them because the president of botswana for one in karma he said it pretty clearly i don't see why i should wish him mugabe well if he cared nothing for his own people why should i care for him and then there were the crowds the two the police commissioner general gus the ensuring the calls for him to step down you think gave you talk about rose petals for everybody so rose per thousand to do all this i'm sure you didn't actually check the relationship between the people of zimbabwe and the police commissioner general the generals the rest of the army or the rest of the city secure kratz and the general and the. jury why do you think the police were metal strip to stand down why are they wanted right now as i'm talking to your starting joint patrol patrols with the army because the police were not trusted by the people they were not trusted by the army they were not trusted by the support they were trusted by only president mugabe why because the person that was second in command of the police is his cousin and and the war point was to safeguard that presidents mr i want to know what is disturbing to many people young to be in your country there are plenty of signs that the new president is no different from the old one you take is warning about pluralism and political opposition those who oppose us will park and park he said they will continue to park but the zanu p.f. train will roll on ruling and ruling while they park again it's all about the pasty nothing about the contrast that's. misinterpretation of what and that's a direct quote of what you said yes but i would tell you that any court get taken out of his context loses many you think this man is ever going to allow the barking dogs of the opposition to sweep him out of power. if they win not a chance if they win you would if they really would it's when uses the backing phrase it's not all about opposition it's even included grace what you are simply saying is when i'm focused on something like a train or a locomotive every dog will run which runs around alongside the tracks can bark and bark but the locomotive does not stop it's called a locomotive is not a country zanu p.f. as far as he's concerned he is a vehicle for trying to force transformation within the country thirty years falls it has is a miracle from thirty five years it's trash we made mistakes trash democracy we're trash now can't we didn't trust democrats but yes we made mistakes and yes we messed up the economy starts really disastrous whatever whatever line you turn you're a very friendly guy you're a nice jovial sort of fellow i don't know that for whatever line you turn you know full well that mr man and god is hostage to the brutality of the brutal record of zanu p.f. using your theory his period as head of central intelligence in the mid 1980's coincided with the most brutal of all mugabe's massacres the so-called coup or killings in which up to twenty thousand from the in the bailey tribes were killed or disappeared he was denied any role but actually the state controlled by the way a chronicle reported at the time that he compared to citizens to bugs cockroaches that is such an epidemic the government needed to bring in dealey alger thing to get rid of the actual thing so it's worthless yet i hear i had you now give me a chance to respond to you first thing is we way in a very intimate very formative years of our country mistakes were made and the excuses made. it cannot be reality isn't it doesn't exist in one of many species and simply say we made mistakes so that's an admission that he made mistakes that's number one number two during that period when he was many sort of security he was coming to poland into account for his actions all the time with a very robust parliament at that time and they would have some things yes ministry crimes this was parking offenses for which you know to quell or pay a fine this was murder on a grand scale there were mistakes all its mistakes and there will be just an understatement in history this is a man or not mistakes it's not it's a slow made mistakes that is stalin made mistakes you know there were mass murderers this was mass we lost one of the militia it now will of the militia not will last till we lost people we lost is about wins and. for you k. i was for it too it's unfortunate that it happened but in the formative years of alienation if we go back to the history of britain who find that there were pages there were people that died it does what it doesn't it doesn't clear people it doesn't make it any better but the facts still remain in a formative years of a nation things who happen which notions must happen however that should not have happened west of an eye with violence stamped into your party's d.n.a. and that's already been proved yet again in the last week the very day the new president was sworn in the former finance minister ignatius trumbull was handed over to the police by the military who had beaten him up severely and while he was held in custody and. we're two testimonies told the initial trouble was that the minister talking about salvation in these various vision told by himself in his testimony in chief he never said he wasn't he was president wrong is he wrong you know he says he was tortured he has them if they did it in the uk to destroy or is wrong because the actual person didn't allege did he tell me and i didn't beat him up no they didn't get him and he never you know in a sense active investor you never said that he was here this refers to fight in court what went by the court record isn't it when when somebody says a place on or off if that's what we go by i saw you know why we making it up as his lawyer said it was a very brutal and took only in the way of dealing with opponents if he says that but i can accept very much so and i tweeted about it myself that this is not the way we're to do this but so thuggish is the country that you've created a few weeks ago to man and man are you calling us thunder now but not. let me finish the man who is now president had to flee for his life a couple of weeks ago and it doesn't end that's an unfortunate set of our latest issues and it's not hard i don't know why don't i see any of the politicians had to flee him i don't know i said i don't accept you calling him a countryman but i would say that it was it was unconventional it was wrong it shouldn't have happened that way but when it starts isn't it and you know right before you is not sitting the tongue isn't it time you came out what's been going on in your country all these years apart from just. trying to get out of it by calling it a few mistakes and meet it that people deserve something better than p.f. other people really don't know people deserve what they vote for exactly that's what that's what democracy about it's if the partisans on appeal then they deserves an opinion isn't it are you going to prescribe leaders was an all for prison for the people of zimbabwe they made a choice they'll make a choice in july or so they'll make a choice again but they choose not to be if that's what they deserve i put it to troy smith who was his vice president for ten years yeah that under mugabe zimbabwe became a byword for corruption murder trial cities and torture she didn't argue with that she didn't know she said it's a fact what's known again when you quote opposition we was good when she was resisting she was with him for ten years yeah but then vice president by then but then if you had said sorry for any of these mergers corruption atrocity you know it's too much corruption is there and it's a problem there you go i've made an admission made us not to this scale you want to say things happened as i told you nine hundred eighty which and then within the one hundred eighty which shouldn't have happened there you go you love those understatements things happened no these were murders and massacres carried out this was brutal brutal violence and you know it was a satanist it was things happen when i'm saying i think you are playing it down well they want you know where your result they were told. they were dissidents one to their way torricelli actually kidnapped and killed there with there were some what age of infrastructure there were three election violence especially around the point thousand and eight am i explain what i mean by things happened so the response to the response to that was disproportionate yes and that's why i'm saying things happened because things happen on both sides and that's the phrase i. why is it would not raise temperatures in ethnic tension in zimbabwe you know just exactly i think what you're trying to do in january on the voice of america you were asked why your party haven't been more successful in improving lives for the majority of zimbabwe three and a half decades. and you replied it's a matter of time it's not going to happen overnight of course when the end of it and there are you trying to and it's never like the seventy years and you say it's a matter of time say i'm not going to have another one i want people to spin saying this thirty seven years mantra they will be had they pretend that there's nothing good happened in zimbabwe when we went through in a typical and went around when people when they were a lot of educated people when schools were built when the provincial was president for all spittles were built with the university only sort of the university and now we've got sixteen things positive things happened in zimbabwe you know if you look tonight because nobody denies you ok it's ok it's only it's not it's your education but in the last wrote achievements it's not a wasted thirty seven years that you see but as for the economy you know the man i work on you certainly don't want it but i go yes now when i'm sorry but it will certainly set records but they want the records you wanted and they your policies grotesque mismanagement inflation peaked around three thousand and eight two hundred thirty one million percent congratulations thank you very much to all that record but why because you the west undermined our economy it's the worse off for well not you know not your body not your staggering in terms of course made in capital with up to today as well i mean i give you that but let's not let's not totally dismiss the role of the sanctions played because the whole point was to bring down this moment economy and but there's a problem government and it's how it worked to some extent but the only thing that didn't happen is the government also broke down. no relation now is running at more than fourteen percent interest to output is less than ten percent of g.d.p. compared to twenty five percent and nine hundred ninety s. nobody's under it in the world the world before the new president it's a lot of work fast which yesterday but on right now that's why i say they have to hit the ground running and the first top government official to make this admission when he was vice president he went to china and he made admission of them but was twenty years behind in development and when somebody of that stature and that level makes that admission it's a very important admission and because of that it's not underwriting the trust before him there are plenty of signs that your public wants justice and these last few days plenty of zimbabweans have been speaking out because they feel they're able to say they have to no more awful small business owner in harare he reacted pretty badly to the news that mugabe and his family have already secured immunity from prosecution he said why do people think that once a crook is out it's now ok for them to keep their empire why even both overthrowing them if we're not going to reclaim money and assets could design bad so made working one of the wealthy suburbs he said let them live peacefully in zimbabwe but they must find out how much they have if it's a lot maybe take half forward must retire or one of your party officials mugabe should be prosecuted and sent to jail for a long time he said if i meet him one day i'll give him a blow in the street he squandered my life lee hood. you really think people are going to accept this it. is surely isn't it is really up to the people but i can tell you this that our constitution does not grant immunity post incumbents so president mugabe was immune to prosecution when he was in office now how the new government will process this whole thing or has it this immunity or something else because. it's only binding us for is their own good will and the gentleman the gentleman ness is concerned he's already been told that he can keep his assets he and his family and get at least ten million george to around mugabe's principal told the times newspaper last week that the ex-president had been assured his assets were secured and which assets of those. ok they own it they're the largest landowners in the country they own a deadly two private schools they control the running of an orphanage they own a twenty five bedroom house in harare known as the blue roof along with a second property in the same city and the three story home in the country yes they have a two point four million house in the center and suburb of johannesburg and an apartment in hong kong and a room and also to have property and in malaysia and singapore not bad actually uses not half of lebanon is right underneath all that not bad but and no consultation on this shoddy little deal that allows him not actually to do when the referendum be beyond the law what precedent do you want into your crecy did you did did did you really want a referendum on that or this thing was negotiated and under it's above and celebrate they didn't care they didn't mind what it was they wanted wanted our lives i think you don't have a democracy talk of new democracy well think well no one is beyond also so do you think democracy is a blood test to miss and in the end the vindictiveness as well as a little bush in its not if i took over yes what a dumbass of the us but not you're not the type of democracy where you think well let's go back and read and rock to the temperatures and oh no let's not have any justice i don't know what's your definition of justice to what additional justice brought to account for massive fraud and from crimes. and war and people are being brought to account who well. you raised the defense minister mcabee reza the finance minister a few minutes ago what about the man who run the show while they met the man who ran the show unfortunately well fortunately for him but zimbabwe needed one and we in india this was the best solution to that in our circumstances to him we remember with any surety that you know that the m.d.c. and if you have a referendum if you have a referendum on this i would tell you ninety percent of zimbabweans would endorse this deal the opposition. sources comes and constitutional yes well they have quite a few things about waters around the shelter which they can challenge it isn't it that's the whole essence of having a constitutional court it would line judges private judges who can we can overturn it if it's unconstitutional let's go that's the whole point that's the whole point of having institutions that are independent and what you dish out is independent. grace mugabi she gets seventy five thousand dollars a year for life when we have is that yeah you think that's fair if you think you think you can have a pension is wrong think she paid tax on any illegal do you have a problem with people getting pension i didn't set that isn't dollars in the country our points as the elements are in telling him. you are in new orleans with the natural constitution because our constitution says those things should happen when when the president is of his or in a vice president's office if they've said it him it is one term so there's no answer shame to the shoddy little details how do you have a diversion of the question no i don't i'm not ashamed of my cause you said hold it in there and that's what the off of the even the president took to uphold the constitution so we're not a shift of focus today is one of the best in the world and will be rated very highly. if the elections take place next year should you to do so your party can hardly campaign on its record killing thirty seven years of corruption thirty seven years of blood on its hands and now this deal this immunity deal presumably to buy mr mugabe silence because he has capabilities that when you take a lot of people what are you know will appear well a very interesting feeling should anyone vote for you even when you have been a very interesting few to look at what your fluted have told you that we have what more than sixty percent outreach and coverage in electricity after all the everything else that we've done i've told you about our literacy rate i'll tell you about those bottles were built we've got a lot to come before i was told we were resettled people we've got a lot to combine with but not human rights no human rights oh yeah we want that doesn't mean we have a let's not react from a now where we have a lot to improve on that twenty we have a lot to improve and this is a bit you know the m.d.c. equivalents to you know the vice-president when the m.d.c. was charged if you if you weeks ago on both sides or when she was in the m.d.c. office of senegal when she was in the m.d.c. she was bashed that again by veterans it's unfortunate that we've got a culture where israel is around us which you want to do you advocate and we haven't had this violence during this period give us give give us some credit from the thirty for the fourteenth when the army divisions after this point where they didn't even sit is over as is this been over a period of time that man one of you had thirty seven years of credit thanks very much for being uncovered so thank you for having me claim the be. the be the be the be. the bad because. lol. lol lol. lol . we found out two years ago that she has a heart condition and musician it has got worse in the last few months i can look and she only has a year to live there is only one hospital in africa where the surgery is conducted free of charge. i am afraid they won't make it. open. in fifteen minutes on d w. six bob i'm standing right before. the storm moves in so. it's all about george chance to discover the world from different perspectives. join us inspired by distinctive instagram or years. d. . w. story topic each week on instagram. freedom of expression. a value that always has to be defended and new. all over the world. are to a freedom freedom of art. a multimedia project about artists and their right to express their views freely. d w dot com part of freedom. i'm a mother like two billion other mothers around the world i have one wish the best for my child. best in a society in which breastfeeding is often frowned upon and adds well for me to abound with profits is more important than my babies will be how do i know how to make the right decisions mostly busy listening to you know all these touch parenting blogs or the pediatrician or lead to conflict and i fight with the help. mills starting disseminating on d.w. . their black and living in germany. she's reminded what that means on a daily basis presenter young up like this not being able to blend in and i was. being you know different than the rest. she travelled across germany to meet other black people and to hear their stories. it's that. i grew up in a white family in a white neighborhood it was definitely a challenge. she decided to put me up for adoption. so the main thing was to keep your head down and your mouth shut up. course of the face like this i could never completely disappear if you. had to go because it would see if. you do something for your country but you're still the black. afro germany starting december tenth d.w. . the u.n. security council has held an emergency meeting over north korea's light as weapons launch the us ambassador said it brought the world closer to war and called on all come.
cockroaches that reach such an epidemic the government needed to bring in d.n.a. and the thing to get rid of the actual thing seems worse is yet i hear you now give me a chance to respond to you first thing is we're weighing in a very limited very formative years of our country mistakes were made and that excuses massacre not even the other person doesn't exist important making decisions i'm sorry so many mistakes so that's an admission that he made mistakes but number one number two during that period when he was really sort of security unique was coming to poland into account for his actions all the time with a very robust parliament at that time to be able to something this is limited crimes this was these were parking offenses for which you know to kill pay a fine this was murder on a grand scale there were mistakes all its mistakes and they were just understatement in history this time around what now mistakes it's much simpler made mistakes the restylane made mistakes you know they were mass murderers this was mass we lost today really shit now will the minister not will last and will most people will last is about wins and. for you k i was for it so it's unfortunate that it happened but in the formative years of alienation if we go back to the history of britain who find that there were pages there were people there that date it does not it doesn't it doesn't clear people it doesn't make it any better but the fact still remains in a formative years of a nation things will happen which notions must have been around when the dutch should not have happened first of all i will violence stamped into your politics d.n.a. and that's already been proved yet again in the last week the very day the new president was sworn in the former finance minister ignatius trumbo was handed it over to the police by the military who had beaten him up severely and while he was held in custody and he and she may actually we're to save some money trouble trouble is that the minister talking about salvation in this way as mentioned told by himself in his testimony in chief you never say to us when he was president wrong is he wrong you know he says he was tortured yes i mean they did it in the activist roya is wrong because the actual person didn't allege that injury and they didn't beat him up now that is pretty much anywhere but you know in a sense activist well you never say that he won't have this very fact a fight in court when for the court record isn't it when when somebody says the planes are not off you that's what we go by that's all oil so why are we making it up as his lawyer said it has a very brutal and draconian way of dealing with pows if he says that's what i can accept very much so and i tweeted about it myself that this is not the way we're to do things but so fucking issues the culture that you've created a few weeks ago the line of the man oh yeah you calling us that don't know about the man let me finish the man who is now president had to flee for his life a couple of weeks ago and he doesn't think that's an unfortunate cellphone made allegations and it's not funny i don't remember why don't our senior politicians have to feed him i don't know i said i don't accept your calling him a complementary study but i would say that it was it was unconventional it was wrong it shouldn't have happened that way but when it isn't and you know right before you is not suited a plan isn't it time you came out limited what's been going on in your country all these years apart from just. trying to get out of it by calling it a few mistakes and i mean that people deserve something better than zaarly p.f. helping people really do it not people deserve what they vote for exactly that's what that's what democracy about it is people choosing zanu p.f. then that is an opinion isn't it i'm going to prescribe leaders was an offer for them for the people's republic they've made a choice they'll make a choice in july also they'll make a choice again will they choose not to be that's what they deserve i put it to troy smith who was vice president for ten years yeah yeah but under mugabe in zimbabwe became a byword for corruption murder of trustees and torture she didn't argue with that she didn't know she says a fact what's not ok when you quote opposition we were as good will rule when she is going to visit she was with him for ten years yeah but then vice president but by then but then if you haven't said sorry for any of these mergers corruption atrocity you know what is torture option is there and it's a problem they go i've made and admission made us not to disco you want to say things happened as i told you mention intuition and then within the next eight years we should have a tent there you go you love those understatements things happen you know these were murders and massacres that carried out this was brutal brutal violence and you know it was they said he was things happen when i'm saying i think you are playing it down we well they really care where you are result they were told. they were dissidents one too they were torrence were actually kidnapped and killed they were they were somewhat age of infrastructure there were elections violence especially around the point thousand lay i'm explaining what i mean by things happened so the response to the response to that was disproportionately yes i'm not in that that's when something's happened because things happen on both sides and that's the phrase i thought. is it would not raise temperatures in ethnic intentions and public interest in the exactly i think what you are trying to do in january on the voice of america you were asked why your party hadn't been more successful in improving lives for the majority of zimbabwe three and a half decades. and you replied it's a matter of time it's not going to happen overnight of course yeah and then you trying to paint snow like the seven years and you say it's a matter of time saying i'm not going to say i want another one i want people to spin saying this that to seven years mantra they've been hell they pretend that there is not nothing good happened in zimbabwe when when who electrification went around when people when they were all educated people when schools were built when the provincial was because of referral spittles were built when the university only said of the university now we've got sixteen things positive things happening to them but only if you feel it's not because nobody denies your case ok so you know it's not just your education but in the last wrote achievement sort of wasted thirty seven years but as for the economy yeah the man i want on you certainly not my why go yes when you know i'm sorry but it will certainly set records but they want the records you wanted and they your policies grotesque mismanagement inflation peaked around three thousand and eight at two hundred thirty one million percent congratulations thank you very much to all that record but why because you the west and the mind are equal it's the worse off for a while not smaller not just by the want your staggering in her old clothes made in kabul to do with lipstick it is well i'll give you that but let's not let's not dismiss their old assumptions plate because the whole point was to bring down this woman economy and about the lisbon government and it's how it's world to some extent but the only thing the end up in is the coming out of the dark. militarisation now is running at more than fourteen percent industrial output is less than ten percent of g.d.p. compared to twenty five percent or nine hundred nineteen nobody's under it in the uk before the new president it's a lot of work fast which he has to embark on right now does way say they have to hit the ground running and the first top government official to make this admission when i was vice president he went to china and he made admissions of them but was twenty years behind in development and when somebody of that stature and that level makes that admission it's a very important mission and because of that he's not underwriting the task before him there are plenty of signs that your public wants justice and these last few days plenty of zimbabweans have been speaking out because they feel they're able to get the day they have to know more after small business owner in harare he reacted pretty badly to the news that mugabe and his family have already secured immunity from prosecution he said why do people think that once a crook is out it's now ok for them to keep their empire why even bother overthrowing them if we're not going to reclaim money and assets because i am bad so many working one of the wealthy suburbs he said let them live peacefully in zimbabwe but they must find out how much they have if it's a lot maybe take half forward months retire or one of your party officials mugabe should be prosecuted and sent to jail for a long time he said if i meet him one day i'll give him a blow in the street he squandered my life lee hood you really think people are going to accept this is the issue in the in your face you after the people but i can tell you at least attempt our question doesn't grant immunity post incumbent so president mugabe was immune to persecution when he was in office now the new government will process this whole thing orgasmed this immunity or something else because. it's only binding in the us why is the only good will and the gentleman the gentleman ness is concerned he's already been told that he can keep his answers he. and his family and get at least ten million george mugabe's principle they told the times newspaper last week that the ex-president had been assured his assets were secured and was just as a loss ok they own the largest land owners in the country they own a deadly two private schools they control the running of an orphanage they only twenty five bedroom house in harare known as the blue roof along with the second property in the same city and that's three story home in the country they have a two point four million house in the sandton suburb of johannesburg and apartment in hong kong and the room and also to have property and in malaysia and singapore not bad actually uses not a natural numbers i don't think it's all bad not bad but and no consultation on this shabby little deal that allows him not actually do when they're offering no be beyond the law what precedent that's what do you want to see ocracy did you did did did you really want a referendum on that or this thing was negotiated and it's about been celebrated they didn't care they didn't mind what it was they wanted one of their lives i said you don't have a democracy go talk of new democracy well think well no one is be also saw do you think democracy is bloodthirstiness and in the end of independence as well as a little bit it's not if i took office recently in what took office of the us but not you're not the type of democracy where you would think well let's go back and read and rock to the temperatures and oh yes i have any justice now on what you know what the definition of justice to it was a differential justice brought to account for massive fraud and for crimes and it's now damp and war and people are being brought to account who well who used to grab it you raise the defense minister mcabee reza finance minister a few minutes ago what about the man who run the show while they met the man who ran the shop unfortunately well fortunately for you but zimbabwe did move on and we in any case what the best solution may be a little more circumstance to him we'll bring him with a sharpie over the any city and if you have a referendum if we have a referendum on this i will tell you. ninety percent of zimbabweans would endorse this deal the opposition does and those who do so since concern constitutional you know younger yes well they have quite if you can see the waters around the shots they can challenge it isn't it that's the whole essence of having a constitutional court that would mind judges private judges who can we can overturn it if it's unconstitutional let's go but the whole point that's the whole point of having institutions that are independent and what you dish out is independent grace mugabi she gets seventy five thousand dollars a year for life when we haven't done it yet you think that's fair everything you think you can have an opinion is wrong think she paid tax on any i mean because you enjoy you do you have a problem with people getting pension i didn't set separate that is all those in a country where our point as we often see him are you telling him no employment problems you are in debt and you're listening to talk on situation because our constitution say's those things should happen when when the president is on his or in a vice president's office if they said attempt it is one step closer to answer shames of the shoddy little deals how do you have a diversion of my question you know i don't i'm going to shift the focus of our poor idiot in there and that's what the off of the in the the president took to uphold the constitution so i'm not sure a shift of focus you say is one of the best in the world and will rated very highly . if the elections take place next year should you to do so your party can hardly campaign on its record carrying thirty seven years of corruption thirty seven years of blood on its hands and now this deal they seem unity deal presumably to buy mr wood gobby silence because he has capabilities that when you take a lot of people what are you going to be and whether a very interesting thing like should anyone vote for you even when i let you have one a very interesting feel to look at what you feel tired i've told you that we have what more than sixty percent outreach and coverage in intrastate i told everything else that we have done i've told you about it a little straight out told over there was little bill will get a lot to campaign for i will told we were resettled people we've got a lot of campaign with but not human rights no human rights oh yeah we were like doesn't matter we have a lot not react or may not we have we have a lot to improve on the twenty we have a lot to prove and this is a plant. that m.d.c. has provided to you know the vice president in the m.d.c. was asked if you if you will go on by side when she was in the m.d.c. almost as cynical when she was in the m.d.c. she was bashed again by you veterans it's unfortunate what a culture very well as around us we want to do advocate and we're going to have this violence during this period give us give give us some credit from the third to from the fourteenth well i mean after this point where we didn't use it as a vote as this is below were you were told that men want to get thirty seven years of credit thanks very much for being uncovered so thank you for having me thank you . blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but. the be. the be. the be. the be. the been forcibly. the. the but. the but. the be. the be. the be. images from an isolated country. images from north korea i'm on any telling photographer captured fascinating shots of everyday life in a regimented society. an exclusive peek behind one of the last two are encouraging . the north korean diary blah blah blah blah blah blah fifteen minutes on the g.w. . on the radio. for investigative cases that will keep you on your toes. stories. so every young person needs to listen to crime fighter and shadow hello frank tell a friend to. crime fighters. freedom of expression.
because i want to welcome to conflict zone thank you tim thanks for having me have you all new president saying that he was inaugurated a new democracy this is a man who and thirty seven years has shown no inclination to promote democracy in any form whatsoever what's to suggest that he's going to change and i think. that's a very correct. to say that he didn't show any inclination to promote democracy what are you talking about is a man that has been a speaker of parliament was short and even handedness in parliament for the template for the time he was one we're talking here of a man that lost elections and was happy to accept the results therefore we're talking of a man who's been individually named unsocial and by the first in two thousand and two when the european council expressed serious concerns among about human rights violations by the government of zimbabwe among two hundred seventy three other people absolutely collective responsibility yes great councils ban was extended in two thousand and four and two thousand and nine they accused him was the man god what as a member of the government of engaging in activities that seriously undermine democracy respect for human rights and the rule of law seriously undermine democracy that doesn't sound good for the future because it doesn't seem like that's that's your parlance which would have been a play to. it isn't but when it attempted we're talking two hundred seventy three members of the establishment so you're basically saying that there's a mob an army there all of this mob and militia forces should because the top iraq war then well you're saying the bureaucrats you're saying the journalists that were there well i mean democracy you know how much does it make it already does it went along with the system doing its best to extinguish democracy now here now after you know or not it does not correct what's what so everybody else got it wrong you got it wrong the u.s. which also sanctioned them got it wrong everybody got it wrong but they went in time you know you were so misunderstood was. correct the point i'm making is yes they were a human rights violations that's just goes without saying anything else when national building but yes we've taken responsibility was weak went and put in place a new constitution well to say that any responsibility it's all because nobody's been brought to justice but because our take was it was because of course because of constituent we have a new ad which is coming please of national reconciliation with all these matters will be dealt with so we do already yes national recognition of healing yes are they also going to deal with the most serious allegations made against mr monk which came in a two thousand and two un report to the security council it called him the key strategist of an elite group involved in illicit diamond trading if you read that book and i read the reports and that report is full of conjecture and innuendo early not facts whatsoever they were simply calling in the benjamin if you read into it in the memo for an investigation what investigation when you actually lose allegations what's allegations that you were the beginning of all of a goldman's of the records of the networks which he was a senior figure who made money through what he called a variety of criminal activities including theft embezzle meant diversion of public funds undervaluation of goods smuggling false invoicing nonpayment of taxes kickbacks to public officials and bright. if you had read that reports as you want to pretend you did you would not have returned or king of the returns you see but there is my solicitor there is no specific there's no specific allegation what is the reason is that when i was innocent and or tell you was the bad man it was the speaker of parliament or the betterment of the government of zimbabwe government of zimbabwe that's what the that's what the report says but there is nothing specific the nothing is because that's the gate it is not even worth investigating his opinion above the law or anyway so why in the eaves why but if they could not if they. lost some damage or lost money to wonder why or allegedly this ship is for them to investigate what's there is a body investigate it's not just mob and demos we're talking about here is what. came from the same democratic republic of congo only five i was in it so this is not the norm i'm saying sort of our responsibility is to use money to investigate things that happened in the congo when it's the man in the congo if there was any money because of the accusations on when and where they are when i'm out in multiple operations the our many governments organise many governments so let them investigate mr miller do you expect zimbabweans never mind the international community simply to gloss over all this instead of seeking a detailed accounting of what took place or don't you care or don't you simply don't care or don't you see there on the rose petals which are which mr man go away in the in the generals are being thrown i mean are being fitted with their been fitted with rose petals right now the u.s. including the generals are talking about in all ways what in all of these things that you're talking about so it means robinson happily with the situation the people that have had these you are really you know we're happy on the one you love it would be really good come on to that little bit let's talk about the public theater of the last ten days to talk about here mr mugabe wasn't pushed out in order to bring in democracy now the p.f. had been perfectly happy trashing democracy for thirty five years the thing that brought change was the turbot realisation that this group. he was going to bring his wife into the top job and that would have upset all the vested interests in your country people who counted on. coming in to protect their interests and their secret couldn't know that now could you not us we couldn't risk that not us of course what people cannot risk is somebody want people to be unstable in what appeared in behaved as terrible way to take over the controls of power in zimbabwe it would establish it would have destabilized the what country would have to submit to the region that was the consent that's not the view of didn't mess with her as a veteran of the liberation struggle he was close to mugabe for fifteen years he was quite clear the only intervened he said to save son p.s. not the country and you also know it is a must not to know just because it is a member of the opposition who also has what vested interests in the vital role in the liberation the surgeon general of the or something is wrong if he says the army forces in central europeans and the answer is not you know he says the amp forces are made up of zanu p.f. members he said not democrats intent on our sharing in a pluralistic system not democrats intent on showing players success so in other words forget about democracy not just the same thing in other words for sounds because that is a bitter old man that's what i'm saying those are for going for democracy let's forget about what a member of the opposition would say organise and what it was they also go in saying that the new vehicle would have even at the swearing in ceremony there were people won't take a look at them because the president of botswana for one in karma he said it pretty clearly i don't see why i should wish him mugabe well if he cared nothing for his own people why should i care for him and then there were the crowds the booed the police commissioner general augusto ensuring the calls for him to step down using gave you talk about rose petals for everybody rose perhaps it's all this i'm sure you didn't actually check the relationship between the people's involvement and the police commissioner general the generals the rest of the army or the little. the city is secure secure kratz and the general in due. why do you think the police were mental strength to stand up why are they wanted right now as i'm talking to your starting joint patrol patrols with the army because the police were not trusted by the people they were not trusted by the army they were not trusted by this and they were trusted by only president mugabe why because the person that was second in command of the police is his cousin and and the war point was that that president mr oh well what do you disturbing to many people young to be in your country there are plenty of signs that the new president is no different from the old one you take is warning about pluralism and political opposition those who oppose us will park and park he said they will continue to park but the zanu p.f. train will roll on ruling and ruling while they bark again it's all about the party nothing about the clash last that's a misinterpretation of what he actually that's a direct quote of what you say yes but i would tell you any course get taken out of his context he loses meaning you think this man is ever going to allow the barking dogs of the opposition to sweep him out of power you know we shall if they will not achieve if they win you what if they win you which is when you lose the backing of friends it's not only about opposition it's even included grace what you are simply saying is when i'm focused on something am or likely to train a locomotive every dog which runs around along saves the tracks can bark and back but the locomotive does not stop it all the locomotive is not a country p.f. as far as he's got other peers in the hour lou livia called for true force transformation within the country thirty years falls it has in some lessons for most of the very five years it's trash we made mistakes trash democracy or trash not got it we didn't trust democrats but yes we made mistakes and yes we messed up the economy still actually asked or whatever whatever allowing you tell your. very friendly guy you're a nice jovial sort of think of that for whatever line you tell you know full well that was the one gag was hostage to the brutality of the brutal record of zanu p.f. using your theory this period as head of central intelligence in the mid 1980's coincided with the most brutal of all mugabe's massacres the so-called cooler on the killings in which up to twenty thousand from the in the billy tribe were killed or disappeared he's denied any role but actually the state controlled by the way a chronicle reported at the time that he compared to citizens to bugs and cockroaches that had reached such an epidemic the government needed to bring in things get rid of the actual thing says words. i hear i had you now give me a chance to respond to you first the thing is we're weighing in a very limited very formative years of our country mistakes were made and valid excuses massacre not the reality isn't it doesn't excuse him. i'm simply saying women mistakes so that's an admission that many mistakes the number one number two during that period when you as mr security unique was coming to poland into account for its actions all the time with a very robust parliament at the time and really what isn't things usually street crimes this was because well parking offenses for which you know to quell pay a fine this was murder on a grand scale there were mistakes all its mistakes and there will be just understatement in history this is a moment not mistakes it's not it's a slow make mistakes the restylane made mistakes you know there were mass murderers this was mass we lost was really shit you know we lost a militia or not will last till we lost people we lost is about wins and. paul u.k. i was from it so it's unfortunate that it happened but in the formative years of any nation if you go back to the history of britain would find that there were pages there were people that date it does not it doesn't it doesn't clear people it doesn't make it any better but the fact still remains you know formative years of a nation things will happen which was about how well the dutch should not have happened first of all know what violence pumped into your party's d.n.a. and that's already been proved yet again in the last week the very day the new president was sworn in the former finance minister ignatius trumbo was hundred over to the police by the military who had beaten him up severely and while he was held in custody and he and to me actually we're two somalis. talking about him in these various vision told by himself in his testimony in chief he never said it wasn't he was a prisoner on the wrong you know he says he was tortured he was the they did it in the uk to destroy it is wrong because the actual person didn't allege and didn't he tell you they didn't beat him up no they just beat him up and he never you know in a sense actually of invest well you never say that he won't have this very hard to fight in court when by the court records isn't it when when somebody says a place and or even that's what would go back as oh are we making it up as his lawyer said it was a very brutal and to colonial way of dealing with a pose if when he says that's what i can accept very much so and i tweeted about it myself but this is not the way we're to do things but so thank you suze the country that you've created a few weeks ago the man are you calling us that don't know about the man you're going to let me finish the man who is now president had to flee for his life a couple of weeks ago and it doesn't seem any less an unfortunate set of polling i get shoes when it's not funny but i don't like your mum why don't i see any of the politicians had to free him i don't know i said i don't accept you calling him a compliment but i would say that it was it was unconventional it was wrong and shouldn't have happened in that way but when it's time isn't it and you know right before you is not suited up isn't it time you came out in the midst of what's been going on in your country all these years apart from just. trying to get out of it by calling it a few mistakes now and i mean it seems that people deserve something better than zanu p.f. helping people really didn't know people deserve what they have what for exactly that's what that's what democracy about it is people choosing sunapee of then that is an opinion isn't it i am going to prescribe leaders was an officer for the people's republic they have made a choice they'll make a choice in july also though make a choice again they choose not to be a that's what they deserve i put it to joyce migiro who was mugabe's vice president for ten years yeah yeah but under mugabe in zimbabwe became a byword for corruption murder atrocities and torture she didn't argue with that she didn't know she says a fact what's love again when you quote opposition. will rule she has issues with him for ten years yeah but then vice president but by then but then if you have any sense sorry for any of these mergers corruption atrocity lords torture option is there and it's a problem there you go i've made and admission made us not to this kill you want to say things happened as i told you in one thousand into which and then within the one thousand into which shouldn't have happened there you go you love those understatements things happened no these were murders and massacres that carried out this was brutal brutal violence and you know it was they said so he said was things not happen when i'm saying i think you are playing it down well they want you know where your result they were told this way. there were dissidents one too there were torricelli actually kidnapped and killed there when they were somewhat tench of infrastructure there were elections violence especially around the police thousand and eight am i explain what i mean by things happened so the response to the response to that was disproportionately yes i'm not in that that's why i'm saying things happened because things happen on both sides and that's the phrase i . it would not raise the temperatures in the air to make it tensions in public you know generally locally i think what you're trying to do in january on the voice of america you were asked why your party hadn't been more successful in improving lives for the majority of zimbabwe three and a half decades. and you replied it's a matter of time it's not going to happen overnight of course yeah we'll end it and then you trying to tell me it's nobody seventy years and you say it's a matter of time see i'm not going to say i want another man i want people to spin saying this thirty seven years mundra they've been hell they pretend but there's nothing good happened in zimbabwe when when who electrification went around when people when they were little educated people when schools were built when the provincial was because of referrals because were built when the university sort of the university and now we've got sixteen things positive things happening to the bubble now you know it's not exactly nobody denies you ok so usually it's nice your educational system wrought a truism and so it's sort of wasted seven years but as for the economy you know the man i work on you certainly one of my one go yes when i'm sorry because i certainly set records but the one of the records you wanted under your policies grant with management information peaked around three thousand and eight two hundred thirty one million percent congratulations thank you very much to all that record but why because you the waste and the mind on call it's the worst of all for well let's not talk about your staggering in the already incompetent the electorate is well i'll give you that but let's not let's not dismiss there on the substance plate because the whole point was to bring down this moment economy and smugglers mob and government and it's how it works to some extent but they want to do that end up in is the government also brought down. maria's nation now is running a world and fourteen percent industrial output is less than ten percent of g.d.p. compared to twenty five percent or nine hundred nineteen nobody's under it in the world the one before the new president it's a lot of work fast which he has to embark on right now that's why i say date i have to hit the ground running and the first talk of an official to make this admission when i was vice president he went to china and he made admission of them but was twenty years behind in development and when somebody of that stature and that level makes that admission it's a very important admission and because of that it's not underwriting the trust before him there are plenty of signs that your public wants justice and these last few days plenty of zimbabweans have been speaking out because they feel they're able to yeah i happen to know more after small business owner in harare he reacted pretty badly to the news that mugabe and his family have already secured immunity from prosecution he said why do people think that once a crook is out it's now ok for them to keep their empire why even bother overthrowing them if we're not going to reclaim money and assets could xyrem bad so many working one of the wealthy suburbs she said let them live peacefully in zimbabwe but they must find out how much they have if it's a lot maybe take half forward months we told her one of your party officials mugabe should be prosecuted and sent to jail for a long time he said if i meet him one day i'll give him a blow in the street he squandered my life lee hood you really think people are going to accept this is new to the issue a little in your thinking after the people but i can tell the. question does not grant immunity post incumbent so president mugabe was immune to prosecution when he was in office now the new government will process this whole thing or has that immunity or something else because. it's only binding in this fight is the on would well and the gentleman the gentleman less is concerned he's already been told that he can keep this out since he. and his family and get at least ten million george mugabe's principle they told the times newspaper last week that the ex-president had been assured his assets were secured and which assets of us ok they own the largest landowners in the country they own a deadly two private schools they control the running of an unfinished nearly twenty five bedroom house in harare known as the blue roof along with the second property in the same city and that's three story home in the country yet they have a two point four million house in the sentence suburb of johannesburg an apartment in hong kong and a room and also to have property and in malaysia and singapore not bad actually uses not a natural number they don't think it's all bad not bad but and no consultation on this shoddy little deal that allows him not actually doing the referendum be beyond the law what a precedent that says do you want to see ocracy did you did did did you really want a referendum on that or this thing was negotiated and it was about a celebrity they didn't care they didn't mind what it was they wanted one of their lives i think you don't have a democracy i don't know the talk of new democracy where you think well you know what is beyond also do you think democracy is bloodthirstiness and in the end of independence as well as a little bit it's not if i took office yes what office of the us but not you're not the type of democracy where you would think well let's go back and read in iraq to the temperatures and oh yes i have any justice now on what you know what your definition of justice to it was a digital justice brought to account for massive fraud and for crimes and it's now down anti-war and people are being brought to account who well you're using the lobby to raise the defense minister mcabee reza finance minister a few minutes ago what about the man who run the show while they met the man who ran the shop unfortunately well fortunately for you but zimbabwe did move on and we in india for the best solution we have a little more circumstance didn't we bring him with any surety that you know that the any if you have a referendum if you have a referendum on this i will tell you. ninety percent of zimbabweans would endorse this deal the opposition m.d.c. does and those who do so says cross unconstitutional you know yes well no not quite if you can see what was around the shop for a second challenge it isn't but the instance of having a constitutional court that would line judges private judges who can we can overturn it if it's unconstitutional let's go but the whole point is the whole point of having institutions are independent and what you decide is independent grace we're going to be she gets seventy five thousand dollars a year for life when we have this date yet you think that's fair everything you think you can have an opinion is wrong think she paid tax on that and you know exactly what you enjoy do you have a problem with people getting pension i didn't set support that isn't all those in the country where our appointment as we often see him are you telling him you know the employment problems you are and in your lives research our constitution because our constitution saying those things should happen when when the president is or his or in a vice president's office if there's a victim it is one temp. of the shoddy little deals how do you have a diversion from a question you know i don't i'm going to focus you said our poll it and that and that's what the off of the even of the president it took to uphold the constitution so where much of a shift of focus you say is one of the best in the world and will be rated very highly. if the elections take place next year yeah as there should you to do so your party can hardly campaign on its record killing thirty seven years of corruption thirty seven years of blood on its hands and now this deal this immunity deal presumably to buy mr mugabe silence because he has capabilities to when you take a lot of people what are you going to be on whether a very interesting flight should anyone vote for you give me one like you have one a very interesting feel to look at what you feel to it i've told you that we're what more than sixty percent outreach and coverage in the pursuit of told me everything else that we have done i've told you about our literacy rate i'll talk about those but also built with what a lot to campaign for i would have told we were resettled people will watch a lot of comedy and we have not human rights no human rights oh yeah we've done that doesn't mean we have a let's not yes we're not we have we have a lot to improve on that twenty we have a lot to prove and this is a bill that you are going to see as the violence to you know the vice president inducing us to ask if you if you will on both sides when she wasn't in d.c. on the cynical when she was in the m.d.c. she was passionate again by you because it's unfortunate what a culture of very violent around us we want to do right and women did this violence during this period give us give give us some credit from the fed to from the fourteenth when the army doesn't after this point where we didn't use it as a vote against this bill was only one time that my one of you had thirty seven years of credit thanks very much for being uncovered so thank you for having me thank you. going to be a good. body in germany always has its finger on the answer good . odds. the law. the law. the law the law. the law. the law. the law. the law. the law the law. the law the law the law. the law. the law the law. the law the law. he's a doctor what kind of diseases can be obese from a reporter the risk implant is besides here and we're going to solve some of the. draws on a wealth of insight he took in different experts on the cultures of medicine the in-depth reports and interviews with specialists. good shit thirty minutes on. the to learn german with d w any time any place. whether with joe joe and your friends i make stuff to those. with friends all over the world. online and interactive. in german to go and. learn german for free with d w. o dropping bombs on civilians. for troops the situation escalates is no longer enough for scruples with ruthless calculation military leaders were kopi extent of the massacre technological progress of the conflagrations massacres destruction and her coming from him to her starting february third on t w. are you up to speed on the latest technology. though and it may be time for an upgrade becoming part of the future. become a cyborg i must say a word so i have to agree to the new sense on a new organ and if design my perception of reality implants that make every day life easier. i use my you can see on a daily basis that optimize the human body and connect people more effectively. i hope to this would make us more ethical persons what would life be like as a cyborg. folks who at the end of the day these technologies can be used against us and what effect will it have been society does the human race we need an upgrade i think it's only the beginning of this side. schuman machines starting february first on t w. this is due to the news live from berlin leading members of germany's social democrats are calling for improvements to a coalition blueprints with angle of marco's conservatives they needs to win over skeptical party members who could vote against a deal to start formal coalition talks but conservatives oppose any changes to the agreements made on friday i'm sure mark until.
think i want to welcome to conflict zone thank you tim thanks for having me wally have you all new president saying that he was inaugurating new democracy this is america and thirty seven years has shown no inclination to promote democracy in any form whatsoever what's to suggest that he's going to change and i think. those were very correct. to say that he didn't show any inclination to promote democracy what are you talking about is a man that has been a speaker of parliament was short and even handedness in parliament for the template for the time he was one we're talking here of a man that lost elections and was happy to accept the results therefrom we're talking of a man who's been individually named unsanctioned by the first in two thousand and two when the european council expressed serious concerns among about human rights violations by the government of zimbabwe among two hundred seventy three other people absolutely collective responsibility let's call it council's ban was extended in two thousand and four and two thousand and nine they accused him was the man god what as a member of the government of engaging in activities that seriously undermine democracy respect for human rights and the rule of law seriously undermine democracy that doesn't seem so good for the future because it does seem a lot less that in your balance which would have been a play to. isn't that herman we're talking two hundred seventy three members of the establishment so you're basically saying that there's a mob an army there all of those mob and militia forces should because the top iraq war then well you're saying the bureaucrats are saying the journalists that we're there we're undermining democracy you look better make it already loves it went along with. doing its best to extinguish democracy now you're after you're not it does not correct what's what so everybody else got it wrong you got it wrong the u.s. which also sanctioned him got it right everybody got it wrong but they went in tell them no you were serious understood. that's correct the point i'm making is yes there were a human race fail ations that's that's goes without saying and yes we're mission of building but yes we've taken responsibility was weak went and put in place a new constitution well to say go to any responsibility at all because nobody has been brought to justice but because of course it was caused because of course because of constituent we have a new acts which is coming police of national reconciliation with all these matters will be dealt with so we do all really janish of the national healing yes are they also going to deal with the most serious allegations made against them in gagra which came in a two thousand and two un report to the security council it calls him the key strategist of an elite group involved in illicit diamond trading if you read that when i read the reports and that report is full of conjecture and innuendo eleanor france was wherever they were simply calling in the benjamin if you ready while a minimal for an investigation what implication being who actually was allegations what's allegations that you were the beginning of all of a hold on because of the reports of the networks which he was a senior figure who made money through what they called a variety of criminal activities including faffed embezzle meant diversion of public funds undervaluation of goods smuggling false invoicing nonpayment of taxes kickbacks to public officials and bright. if you had read that reports as you want to pretend you did you would not have returned or king of the returns you see but that is my ballistic there's no specific there's no specific allegation what is the reasons but when i was in a certain motel he was the big man it was where the speaker of parliament was the big human for the government of zimbabwe government of zimbabwe that's what the that's what the report says but there's nothing specific something was looking back again today not even worth investigating liza being above the law anyway so why all of the eve why but if they could know if the consul in the congo lost some damage or lost money too long about war or allegedly they should it's for them to investigate what's what this is about would investigate it's all smuggling demos we're talking about here is what. they are so that's ok even if they came from the same democratic republic i got a great only five i wasn't i was not they're not i'm saying it's not all responsibility is to use money to investigate things that happened in the congo when it's the man in the congo in the most everybody knows that the accusations on one go with the one on him out in multiple operations the old many governments organise many governments so let them investigate mr miller are you expect zimbabweans never mind the international community simply to gloss over all this instead of seeking a detailed accounting of what took place or don't you care or do you simply don't care or don't you see there on the rose petals which are which mr man under way in the in the generals are being thrown i mean are being fitted with they've been fitted with rose petals right now the u.s. including the general said talking about all way involved in all of this that you're talking about so it means muslims are happy with the situation the people that aren't happy if you are really you know we're happy on the one you're happy with the heroes going to come on to that little bit but let's talk about the public theater of the last ten days to talk about here mr mugabe wasn't pushed out in order to bring in democracy doesn't p.s. have been perfectly happy trashing democracy for thirty five years the thing that brought change was the terrible realisation that was true. he was going to bring his wife into the top job and that would have upset all the vested interests in your country people who counted on. coming in to protect their interests and their secrets couldn't know about now could you not just recall the risk but not us of course what people cannot risk is somebody who thought to be unstable in what appeared in behaved terrible way to take over the controls of power in zimbabwe it would establish it would have destabilized the whole country it would have to submit the region that was the consent that's not the view of didn't mess with a veteran of the liberation struggle he was close to mugabe for fifteen years he was quite clear the army intervened he said to save zanu p.f. not the country but he was so you not to know each other because that is a member of the opposition who also is with vested interests in the vital role in the liberation he told him of the something wrong you see he says the army forces had his opinions and yet it is not you know he says the armed forces are made up of zanu p.f. members he said not democrats intent on our sharing in a pluralistic system not democrats intent on showing in a pluralistic society so in other words forget about democracy not just in the same way in other words which are sense because it is a bitter old man that's what i'm saying those are for going for democracy let's forget about what a member of opposition would say again as and what it was they also go in saying that the new vehicle would of even at the swearing in ceremony there were people won't take a new look at them because the president of botswana for one in karma he said it pretty clearly i don't see why i should wish him mugabe well if he cared nothing for his own people why should i care for him and then the way the crowds that booed the police commissioner general augusto ensuring there were calls for him to step down using gave you talk about rose petals for everybody it's not rose petals it's all this i'm sure you didn't actually check the relationship between the people of zimbabwe and indian police commissioner general the generals the rest of the army or the little. so the city secure crowds and the general indian. jury why do you think the police were magistrate to stand down why are they all in the right now as i'm talking to you start to dream patrol patrols with the army because the police were not trusted by the people they were not trusted by the army they were not trusted by this and they were trusted by only president mugabe why because the person that was second in command of the police is this cousin and and the war point was to save lives that presidents just about well what do you disturbing to many people young to be in your country the plenty of signs that the new president is no different from the old one you take he's warning about pluralism and political opposition those who oppose us will bark and bark he said they will continue to park but the zanu p.f. train will roll on ruling and ruling while they bark again it's all about the party there's nothing out of the crash last that's a misinterpretation of what he actually that's a direct quote of what you say yes but i would tell you any course get taken out of his context and this minute you think this man is ever going to allow the barking dogs of the opposition to sweep him out of power you know we shall give they will not a child if they were in your words if they really would it's when you use the backing phrase it's not all about opposition it's even included grace what you are simply saying is when i'm focused on something i am or like i'm like a train or a locomotive every dog which runs around alongside the tracks can bark and back but the lot of those must stop it's called a locomotive is not a country p.f. as far as he's got appears is the only vehicle for true force transformation within the country it's really just calls it has it's obvious conservation of thirty five years it's trash we made mistakes trash democracy or trash not god we didn't trust democrats but yes we made mistakes and yes we messed up an economy state that's really disastrous whatever whatever line you tell when you're in. a very friendly guy you're a nice jovial sort of think of what actually whatever line you tell you go for well but miss them and gag works hostage to the brutality of the brutal record of zanu p.f. is not theory this period as head of central intelligence in the mid 1980's coincided with the most brutal of all mugabe's massacres in the so-called book or on the killings in which up to twenty thousand from the end of billy tribe were killed or disappeared he's denied any role but actually the state controlled by the way a chronicle reported at the time that he compared to students to bugs and cockroaches that had reached such an epidemic the government needed to bring in dealey and things to get rid of the actual thing so it works. i hear i had you now give me a chance to respond to you first thing is we're weighing in a very limited very formative years of our country mistakes were made and the excuses massacre not even others and it doesn't excuse employment decisions and simply say we made mistakes so that's an admission that really sets the number one number two during that period when he was minister security unique was coming to power into account for his actions all the time when a very robust parliament at that time and it wasn't an excuse related crimes this was these were parking offenses for which you know pay a fine this was murder on a grand scale there were mistakes all its mistakes and there will be just understatement in history was the moment i'm not mistakes it's much simpler made mistakes the restylane made mistakes you know they were mass murderers this was mass we lost the really shit now we'll see a minister not will last till we lost people we lost is about wins and. for you k. i was for it so it's unfortunate that it happened but in the formative years of any nation if we go back to the history of britain would find that there were pages there were people that died it does what it does and doesn't clear people it doesn't make it any better but the fact still remains in a formative years of a nation things who happen which was she must have been our that should not have up and most of and i will violence stamped into your party's d.n.a. and that's already been proved yet again in the last week the very day the new president was sworn in the former finance minister ignatius trumbo was handed over to the police by the military who had beaten him up severely and while he was held in custody and he and to me actually were to testimony. mistake the minister talking about vision in his various vision he himself in his testimony in chief he never said he wasn't he was a prisoner on the wrong you know he says he was tortured yes i mean they did it in the uk to destroy is wrong because the actual person didn't allege that he genuinely didn't beat him up now that is pretty much everywhere but you know in the sense that you've invested well you never said that he won't have this very hard to fight in court when by the court records isn't it when when somebody says a place and off in that's what we go back as oh ok well we're making it up as his lawyer said it was a very brutal and took only in the way of dealing with pows if he says that but i cannot serbs very much so and i tweeted about it myself that this is not the way i want to do things but so thuggish is the country that you've created a few weeks ago the man the man are you calling us that do not know the man let me finish the man who is now president had to flee for his life a couple of weeks ago and he doesn't think that's an unfortunate set of population it's not funny but i don't like him why don't i say no but i should have to feel him i don't know i said i don't accept your calling him a complementary study but i would say that it was it was unconventional it was wrong it shouldn't have happened that way but when it's time isn't it and you know right before you is not sit in a club isn't it time you came out in the midst of what's been going on in your country all these years apart from just. trying to get out of it by calling it a few mistakes now and i'm missing that people deserve something better than zanu p.f. hoping people really do it not people deserve what they want for exactly that's what that's what democracy about it's if people choose and some appeal then that is an opinion isn't it i want to describe leaders was an awful prison for the people's republic they've made a choice they'll make a choice in july or so they'll make a choice again they choose not to be that's what they deserve i put it to troy smith who was vice president for ten years yeah yeah but under mugabe zimbabwe became a byword for corruption murder trial cities and torture she didn't argue with that she didn't know she says a fact what's love again when you quote opposition we was good we are wounded she also has issues with him for ten years yeah but then vice president but by then but then if you have any sense sorry for any of these mergers corruption atrocity you know what is torture option is there and it's a problem there you go i've made an admission made us not to disco you want to say things happened as i told you mention intuition and then when the one hundred eighty two shouldn't have happened there you go you love those understatements things happened no these were murders massacres that carried out this was brutal brutal violence and you know it was message i said was things not happen when i'm saying i think you are playing it down well they want you know where your result they were told. they were dissidents one too they were torrence were actually kidnapped and killed they were they were somewhat age of infrastructure there were elections violence especially around the point thousand les i'm explaining what i mean by things happened so the response to the response to that was disproportionately yes i'm not into that's when something's happened because things happen on both sides and that's the phrase i. would not raise the temperatures in ethnic tensions in public you know just exactly i think what you're trying to do in january on the voice of america you were asked why your party haven't been more successful in improving lives for the majority of zimbabwe three and a half decades. and you replied it's a matter of time it's not going to happen overnight of course when you end it and then you troll intend anything nobody seventy years and you say it's a matter of time see i'm not going to have another one i want people spin saying this thirty seven years mantra they've been hell they pretend but there's not nothing what happened in zimbabwe when when who electrification went around when people when they were a lot of educated people when schools were built when the provincial was for it was a professor or spittles were built when the university will instead of the university now we've got sixteen things positive things happened in zimbabwe you know you look like a unit nobody denies you ok so you didn't realize your education in the last wrote it isn't so it's not a wasted thirty seven years but as for the economy you have a man i want you certainly not my wife yes i'm sorry but it will certainly set records but the one the records you wanted and the your policies grotesque mismanagement inflation peaked around three thousand and eight at two hundred thirty one million percent congratulations thank you very much to all that record but why because you the west undermined our economy it's the worse off for well not you know we're not sure about it on your staggering of course made incognita we'd love to do this well i give you that but let's not let's not dismiss the role of the substance rate because the whole point was to bring down this moment economy and but there was a moment government and it's how it works to some extent but the only thing that didn't happen is the government also broke down. my relation now is running at more than fourteen percent industrial output is less than ten percent of g.d.p. compared to twenty five percent of the ninety nine ten nobody's under it in the world before the new president it's a lot of work the task which he has to embark on right now that's why i say they have to hit the ground running and the first talk of an official to make this admission was vice president he went to china and even that mission of the mob was twenty years behind in development and when somebody of that stature and that level makes that admission it's a very important mission and because of that it's not underwriting the task before him there are plenty of signs that your public wants justice and these last few days plenty of zimbabweans have been speaking out because they feel they're able to say they have to know more are for small business owner in harare he reacted pretty badly to the news of mugabe and his family have already secured immunity from prosecution he said why do people think that once a crook is out it's now ok for them to keep their empire why even bother overthrowing them if we're not going to reclaim money and assets could design bad so many working one of the wealthy suburbs she said let them live peacefully in zimbabwe but they must find out how much they have if it's a lot maybe take half forward must return her or one of your party officials mugabe should be prosecuted and sent to jail for a long time he said if i meet him one day i'll give him a blow in the street he squandered my life lee hood you really think people are going to accept this is nudity the issue in the community is going after the people but i can tell you this that our construction doesn't grant immunity post incumbent so president mugabe was immune to prosecution when he was in office now the new government will process this whole thing or go that this immunity or something else because. it's only binding in this fight is the only good will and the gentleman the gentleman ness is content he's already been told that he can keep his answers he. he and his family and get at least ten million george mugabe's principal aide told the times newspaper last week that the ex president had been assured his assets were secured and which assets of those ok they own the largest land owners in the country they own a definitely two private schools they control the running of an orphanage they only twenty five bedroom house in harare known as the blue roof along with a second property in the same city that's three story home in the country yet they have a two point four million house in the sandton suburb of johannesburg and an apartment in hong kong and a room and also to have property and in malaysia and singapore not bad actually uses not an actual number they say something is all that's not bad but and no consultation on this shoddy little deal that allows him not actually do when they're referring no be beyond the law what precedent that says they're using you see ocracy did you did did did you really want a referendum on that or this thing was negotiated and under it's about been celebrated they think they didn't mind what it was they wanted one of our lives i said you don't have a democracy there's talk of new democracy well think well no one is be also saw police go back and read and rock to temperatures and oh yes i have any justice you are what you know what your definition of justice to what's a differential justice brought to account for massive fraud and for crimes and how it's no damn war and people are being brought to account who well who used to be robbing you raise the defense minister mcabee reza finance minister a few minutes ago what about the man who run the show while they met the man who ran the shop unfortunately well fortunately for you but zimbabwe did move on and we ended for the best for it it may be a little also comes of teamwork with green with you shortly under the any city and if you have a referendum if you have a referendum on this i would tell you ninety percent of zimbabweans would endorse this deal the opposition m.d.c. doesn't and those sources concern constitutional you know yes well no not quite if you can see it but for those around us they can challenge it isn't it that's the expense of having a constitutional court it would mind judges private judges who can walk in over tell me to get some posters now let's go that's the whole point but the whole point of having institutions that are independent and i want to do that is independent. grace mugabi she gets seventy five thousand dollars a year for life when we have a state yeah you think that's fair everything you think you can have an opinion is wrong think she paid tax on that anyway i think we're doing to you do you have a problem with people getting pension i didn't set separate that isn't solace in a country where our climate as we often see him are you telling him the employment problems you are and in your lives research awkward situation because our constitution say's those things should happen when when the president is on his or in a vice president's office if there is such a term it is one term so there are no answers showings of the shoddy little deals jordon version of my question no i don't i'm going to simplify because you see the whole it in there and that's what the off does that mean the president to talk to uphold the constitution so i'm not sure a shift of focus you say is one of the best in the world and will be rated very highly. if the elections take place next year should you to do so your party can hardly campaign on its record carrying thirty seven years of corruption thirty seven years of blood on its hands and now this deal they seem unity deal presumably to buy mr wood gobby silence because he has capabilities don't you think a lot of people what are you going to be on one of very interesting field should anyone vote for you believe me when i let you have one a very interesting feel to look at what you're fluted i've told you that we have what more than sixty percent outreach and coverage in it to see to have told you everything else that we have done i've told you about our literacy rate i'll talk about those but also have built with what a lot to campaign for i will fold we will resettle people with what's a lot of carbon we have not human rights no human rights oh yeah we were like doesn't matter we have a let's not c.-x. format now we have we have a lot to improve on the twenty we have a lot improve and this is a bill that you can just use of violence to you know the vice president of the m.d.c. was asked if you if you will go on by side when she was an m.d.c. ambassador some ago when she was in the m.d.c. she was bashed again by events it's unfortunate what a culture very well as around us we want to do logic and we're going to have this violence during this period give us give give us some credit from the third for the fourteenth well i mean after this point where they didn't even see it as a vote as if this bill were really a time that man wanted you had thirty seven years of credit thanks very much for being uncovered so thank you for having me thank you. examine the for. the to. play. the fits all moving the be sure link to scream africa around the world the from your link to exceptional stories and discussions kalo some student news actually programming from born in germany from years of easy now i would say d. w. close the traffic on the following us on facebook at g.w. africa close. to diversity spot. where the world of science is at home in many languages. for thoughtful grabbing blundering into. telecasts our innovations magazine for just so every week and looking to the future on w dot com. science and research for asia. keeps on about the moments that before. it's all about the struggles inside. it's all about george chance to discover the world from different perspectives. join us in the inspired by distinctive instagram or. at g.w. story the two topics each week on instagram. are you up to speed on the latest technology. know when it may be time for an upgrade. become part of the future become the most annoying or. i must say a word so i have created a new sense and a new organ and i've designed my perception of reality implants that make every day life easier. i use my implants on a daily basis that optimize the shoeman body and connect people more effectively. i hope that this will make us more ethical persons if we have a greater understanding for each other. what would life be like as a cyborg how far would people be willing to go to get and at the end of the day these technologies can be used against us and what effect will it have been society does the human race really need an upgrade i think it's only the beginning of its. cyborgs schuman machines starting february first on d w. odd. odd. place. this is it only news line from berlin the international community condemns a decision by me in march a prosecutor to journalists the reporters boards with borders news agency are accused of violating the country's official secrets act the reporters say they were trying to reveal the truth about the military's crackdown on britain joe muslims also coming up political parties are stepping up efforts to reach an agreement to start coalition talks but they say there's still a lot of work to do well look at some of.
widely divergent cadet some older and younger. to this day, west point is still the father of west point because he's the one who puts it on much sounder and more systematic and that's very important because that's the army that will produce the generals of the civil war. that institution at west point will be where all these -- most of the more generous with their initial professional experience. >> host: the titleist west pointers in the civil war. who have regarded that were generous in the civil war? >> guest: in all honesty, most of the famous. sherman, grant, lee, hood. to give you a harder number, there are a few fitness, wade hampton for example. to get the sense of the numbers, two thirds of major generals involved are veterans of the regular army. the regular army is dominated by west point. the west point is about -- it not only must officers of the regular army graduate was going, it's just a focal point of much of the army's professionalism. when they do, for example, review boards for type x, these cadets as guinea pigs and they'll be -- to go to west point and how to march around and use the library. west point has the most thorough library available so becomes a place for all the stuff is done. but we think of the big three, lee, grant, sherman, stonewall jackson. there are west pointers to know each other and have gone through that experience. >> host: when it comes to the civil war you fetch of us on the south and the north train in the same ways. what does that due to some of the conflicts? the most important thing that happened, the most important result is the worst are essentially clones of each other because their leadership models, experiences are similar. what happened is the armies are locked in an equilibrium of competence. since they're fighting near images of one another, that is part of what causes the war to last as long as it does. sometimes the screen is indecisive, many of the does not exceed one. those men and 62, 63. it takes until 1865 and it's a long process present because the army since the start of assemblers to show models, they were is similarly. they both get much better, but they get better at the same pace. so you can still have a battlefield decision. obviously the north winds. but a lot of times the military has tree when you see the big spectacular but very, destroys the entire army in one blow, you have to have notches superior -- you have disappeared or organization institutions. during the civil war, there's clearly better general submersed generals. the advantage they can get each engagement, we have a crushing victory, but he can't quite truly destroyed the entire federal army partly because these are messieurs though similar -- is such a similar level of confidence and proficiency. >> host: was one of the goals of the state battles we thought, was one of the goals and end-all type focus? >> guest: that really is the hope. >> host: was that at west point? >> guest: one of the curious ironies about this is west point -- and this is part of the problem because west point because of fears influenced by this french model of military engineering education, west point teaches cadets had to be junior officers. we prepare not to be admirals immediately. we prepare them to be secular tenets. west point to the basic grounding in the most basic fundamental voting lots of military expertise that gives them a lot of engineering, probably more they really need. so the desire for a bit decisive novel comes from more of a cultural affinity for napoleon. mcclellan is likened to napoleon early in his career. he had 10 strikes the napoleonic pose and his people reading popular history books because there's wars were of course the irony is the point, but there are these battles where he has these decisive victories, with these that segment of the napoleonic war ends. that is in many ways the model of what most west point generals are hoping to achieve, especially early in order. later it becomes increasingly problematic and you people with interesting alternative visions. for much of the public and much of the youngest officer corps and besides is a desire that if you can edit us what you want. you want to completely destroy your opponents in the field. not just make them retreat and not just inflict casualties, but to actually crash them as an organization. >> host: professor hsieh, what about counterinsurgency and insurgency method? who are some of the more -- those that maybe her up out of the mold by west point? >> guest: ferric guerrillas and they are especially vexatious reading oteri logistics. but the problem with guerrillas for the confederate really is an issue that's definitely got her entries. some of the entries comes from recent american issues overseas for lack of a better way of putting it. i would say that be a mistake to overstate the loan of guerrillas partly because guerrillas can deny conventional military forces could troth and territory. they can arrest logistics, but they can't physically control that terrain in the way the confederacy doesn't want the entire american south to be sorted 18 in chaotic. something like syria is not the goal the confederates thereafter. they want to control the territory to be the nation nation state government can't and there's a very good reasons for that. social, cultural, some involve slavery. requires the basic level of social stability. as you see in the civil war because waives their property and his regime, but also human needs in people, so they can run away and do things other fading restriction innovative physical properties normally can't. the confederacy is always going to be unable to rely come lately on guerrillas as the main line of after because the endpoint of that is to have jazz and environment of social chaos. you also have -- is disconnected at the beginning of the book. the officers of the regular army have experience of irregular warfare. they had to fighting in the hands. part of the consequence and he will likely have to chase them to the text says is they actually have a powerful distaste for it. this time it's politically controversial. and he has refused to fight a proper european soldiers. it becomes frustrating. a lot of times the army's methods for dealing with things like indian villages and attacking noncombatants to the site. dma finds it distasteful, although this is wicked usually actually does. so when they get the bid worthy of looking for in many ways, they want to stick to the decor. when it's clear this is a coherent virginia. alexander proposes to basically going to friday's guerrillas and we basically rebukes him, politely but never mess with the same. the countryside will be filled with chaos and on these disciplines start and you can do this, but i'm going to surrender to see what happens. he describes himself never mentioning the ada can. you do have guerrillas. as far as that occupied of hostile civilian. they are federal logistics blockhouses protect railroads. the army becomes occupation duties with maintaining civil order. but it is very much the civil war is still predominant war of large battles. >> host: professor wayne hsieh, civil war 1861, page 61, did the u.s., the north has professional armies? >> guest: is very small and very successful in the mexican war, the crucial place where you see it have its the problem is in 1861 the army is a little over 16 and officers thought there is strength. the officer corps will split. so there is a professional army at its core cadre small and it has to be dispersed again. for that reason, the early american armies during civil war are quite poor in their proficiency. they learn quickly, but they learned the hard way really. that's one of the reasons why west pointers are catapulted to prominent because they are the only people of any expertise in a relied on quickly and therefore give a disproportionate amount of an. the irony again is that scott conquers mexico city during the veracruz campaign with an army usually ranges about 10 or 11,000. this is a third of the size of first paul rudd and much smaller than the armies of places like gettysburg. the only person with much experience with this thing and is too old to take the field. other features civil war generals are officers who their only experience with major combat operations is funny so much smaller scale and after that of a deadly was take an infinite frontier. so their expertise is in many ways also terribly deficient. but it's better than what everyone else has, which is nothing. so there is a very small professional army. the union of the confederacy produce will -- cannot be at all described as professional. so i'd say 1832 at the earliest. >> host: if you teach this book at the naval academy, ap teacher on both, what he wants to dance to leave with? >> guest: i don't teach the book ecosphere you never want to be the professor who so obviously trying to slowpokes of a captive audience. i think for me the biggest thing i try to get across is the civil war -- the big picture theme and this is especially important that there is at times a collision between the way country wants to fight a war, how it prefers to fight a war and how it actually have the doing so. in 1861, the police in the united states and the union confederacy aceto- a professional expertise. in times of crisis, good citizen soldiers full text our country their native virtue and curse will find a way end of the professional military forces because they have freedom and courage on their site. what happens very quickly is the shortcomings of view become increasingly clear. in fact, war and military affairs retires the body of systematic special expertise in issues of competence not directly related to justice or perceptions are even free very. west pointers are the only people who have the concrete military expertise and therefore have to build it on the fly. in the north it causes problems because west pointers are politically left to see us take a lot of terms of emancipation. political leadership ignores becos increasily suspicious partly because they know their politics are different, but also wedded to the idea that we don't have professionals because we just rely on the native virtue of americans. .. >> the author of this book, "west pointers and the civil war: the old army in war and peace." booktv is on location in annapolis, maryland. >> and now a couple of interviews from booktv's college series. first, booktv interviewed professor john l. jackson jr. about his book, "racial paranoia." the interview was conducted at university of pennsylvania's annenberg school for communication, and it's about 25 minutes. >> john l. jackson jr. is a professor of communication, anthropology and africana studies at the university of pennsylvania. of and he is the author recently of this book, "racial paranoia: the unintended consequences of political correctness." dr. jackson, when you talk about racial paranoia, who's paranoid? >> well, i would argue we're all paranoid when it comes to race. and probably for good reason. i mean, one of the points i make in the book is that race as a category itself is about the embedding of paranoia into the way we look at social life. so, for instance, the whole point of race is to say some differences are so paramount, so biological, so hard wired that we have to be on the lookout for them at all times and that they explain all the other ways in which we differentiate between uses and themes. and so race thits is about fear and social paranoia. all i argue is when you think about a country like the united states that's trying to work through its own history of racial antagonisms, we can have two models of postrace. one model is we're transcending, we're really trying to build a multiracial community. the other one is sort of postracialty by repression. we don't talk about it, don't think about it, don't say a word and, hopefully, somehow we'll also move beyond it. i think those are very different projects, but they both fall under that umbrella of postracial possibilities. >> well, let's go to that second example that you mentioned, this ignoring or not talking about race. >> yeah. >> why is it important that we talk about race? >> well, i think it's important not to make a fetish out of race. but the danger is to imagine that to not discuss it means somehow it isn't always already in the room. so the only reason why i feel like we have to be very careful about bracketing out serious discussions about things we feel uncomfortable about is it's an ahistorical position. we've been through all of this stuff, we've made it to a certain version of the finish line, and now the only way to move forward is pretend we haven't run this far already to know where we want to go, what we want this community to become, we have to understand where we've been and make sense of the differences that still divide us. and that's why i feel, again, it's a fine line between making too much of racial difference, right, making a fetish out of it, but also trying to be serious about pushing to a moment when we can really feel like everyone has a vested interest in being part of what we imagine in american society. >> professor jackson, what's the role of political correctness in our views on race? >> so part of the point of the book, it's almost like it's easy to take a pot shot at political correctness, right? so what's nice about political correctness is it's trying to place a premium on civility. we don't want to offend people, we don't want folks to feel uncomfortable. the potential downside, though, is when that is connected to an aversion to any discussion about race at all and to flimsy social relationships. so the point i make in the book is, you know, when you're not talking about race and your social networks aren't racially diverse, you tend to have a very limited sense of what the social other's life is actually about. you get those images from television, maybe from books you read, from magazines, but you don't have real relationships. so it means to not have people in your life that represent very different ways of being in the world puts you in this very precarious position when racial conflagration flares up because you don't have an investment in folks across the racial line. even if someone says something you don't like, you care about them, you're invested. if you don't have a relationship, you write them off. i didn't like you anyway, and i won't talk to you. and i think political correctness is about saying it's really dangerous to combine a lack of substantive engagement across all kinds of social differences with a kind of commitment to civility at the expense of talking seriously about the issues that concern us. and the difference we have on those issues. and so i think it's important to remember we need to find a way to talk about things that are uncomfortable to talk about, but we shouldn't pretend that we're always saying things we mean just because we're saying things that we know we imagine won't affect -- offend our interlocutor in ways that are negative x. so that's what i'm trying to argue in the book. political correctness becomes, if we're not careful, a way to double down on repressing any expression about race. >> what's an example you use in "racial
>> woodruff: u.s. health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius is here to talk about the latest developments on health care reform. >> ifill: jonathon miller of independent television news has an update on the floods in pakistan that have killed more than 1,000 people his weekend. >> woodruff: and jeffrey brown has a book conversation with ocean explorer jean-michel cousteau about his famous father, jacques cousteau. >> ifill: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: the president boasted of progress in iraq today as the american combat effort, if not the diplomatic one, winds down. mr. obama spoke to a disabled veterans convention in atlanta. >> as a candidate for president i pledge to bring the war in iraq to a responsible end. >> reporter: and today addressing the disabled american veterans, president obama declared the american-led war is nearing its end. >> shortly after taking office i announced our new strategy for iraq and for a transition to full iraqi responsibility. and i made it clear that by august 31st 2010, america's combat mission in iraq would end. (applause) >> and that is exactly what we are doing. as promised and on schedule. >> reporter: the american force in iraq has already shrunk by 90,000 over the last year and a half. and it's on track to drop to 50,000 by month's end. all american troops are scheduled to leave at the end of next year. >> during this period our forces will have a focused mission supporting and training iraqi forces, partnering with iraqis and counterterrorism missions, and protecting our civilians and military efforts. these are dangerous tasks. there are still those with bombs and bullets who will try to stop iraq's progress. and the hard truth is we have not seen the end of american sacrifice in iraq. >> reporter: more than 4400 american troops have died in iraq in seven and a half years of fighting. with thousands more wounded. but so far this year 43 americans have been killed fewer than last month alone in afghanistan. at least 100,000 iraqis have died in the war, some estimates are much higher in what at times has been brutal sectarian strikesment but the president pointed to major improvements during recent years. >> today even as terrorists try to derail iraq's progress, because of the sacrifices of our troops and their iraqi partners, violence in iraq continues to be near the lowest it's been in years. >> reporter: republicans point out that because mr. obama opposed the u.s. surge in iraq he deserves scant credit for any success. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. >> thanks to the determination of general petraeus, general mcchrystal and ambassador crocker the counterinsurgency strategy was allowed to take root and to succeed. >> reporter: but the violence is far from ended. today a bomb blast in baghdad killed 12. and the iraqi government says there were more than 500 civilian deaths in july, a record for the year. the u.s. military disputes that figure. as the american commitment strengths iraq's political impasse continues. the march election was the first planned and runed by iraqis and it produced record turnout. but in the five months since prime minister nearee al-maliki has not been able to form a governing coalition among his shiite partners. a main opponent is alawi, the shiite former prime minister who created a secular sectarian bloc that garnered more votes than maliki. at a recent meeting in dam as ca cirrus ya, alawi asked fourth from al-sadr who once waged open war. >> there were old disagreements. i forget them, in order to make the political process move forward. and i hope that in the future there would not be any disagreement with alawi or anyone else. >> reporter: despite visits from vice president biden and a host of other top american officials, there seems no end in sight for the deadlock. that has raised fears of renewed sectarian bloodletting just as the american combat presence fades. now for more on for more on the complicated nature of the u.s. drawdown, we turn to brian katulis, who worked for president clinton's national security council and advised the obama presidential campaign on iraq. he's now a senior fellow at the center for american progress. and michael rubin, an adviser to the u.s.-led occupation authority in iraq under president george w. bush. he's now a resident scholar at the american enterprise institute. >> welcome to you both, gentlemen. when the president says to today brian katulis that we are moving from the combat mission to the diplomatic mission, what does that really mean? >> well, president obama is trying to send a message that what he promised as a candidate, that we will implement a phased with drawal of troops but we will commit to enduring support, diplomatic, economic, political support for iraq, this is what he is explaining to the american public. we are in this transition phase and that the combat phase has ended. we're going to fade to the background and offer support to the iraqi government and the iraqi people over the long hall. >> michael rubin, are you hearing fade to the background when you hear that? >> i most certainly am hearing fade to the background. we could certainly have a debate over whether it's wise to fade towards the background or whether it's wise to adhere to this deadline which is a political deadline which president obama came out during his campaign, and is quite different from the legal deadline. >> you obviously don't think it is wise, tell me why sm. >> i don't think it is wise for a few reasons. number one, iraq's government hasn't formed yet. there is still a lot of fault lines along kirkut, around mozul and whether we like it or not u.s. influence is tied to the number of troops we have on the ground. that doesn't mean they shouldn't withdraw, but we've got to be prepared if we do withdraw them, that we're not going to have that tripwire in place should iraqi crises break out in this time without a government. >> how about that brian katulis t has been five months since that election. they are still trying to make sense of it, sort it out. how do we know that we can afford to pull back as the president promised? >> i think we can afford to because u.s. troops for the last year in essence have not been on iraqi treat stroos. one of the biggest market points and michael wrote about this last summer was when we withdrew from populated areas. and much of our draw down has already been implemented and as admiral mike mullen the chairman of joint chiefs staff said last week, he is pleased with the progress. so our top military commander said everything is going okay. the simple fact of the mat certificate that this time line is something that iraqis actually want. they demanded this from the bush administration. the bush administration did not want to have a time line and it was the iraqi government that forced the united states's hand. and they said look, we want to take back control of our country and iraqis are doing that. they are a proud nation. they actually want to take control of their country. they have substantial political differences in forming a government but we should not stand in the way in the efforts of iraqis to take control of their own affairs. >> he's arguing that it doesn't matter whether everything is fixed completely. it's time to go because the iraqis want the u.s. to go. >> well, the iraqis certainly do want the u.s. to go and that is why they agreed to a deadline of september 13, 2011, august 341s2010 is president obama campaign rhetoric back when he was a senator. >> but there would still be 50,000 troops there. >> there will still be 50,000 troops there. but the number of troops on the ground now with president obama is also do something a bit of smoke and mirrors because when he says these aren't combat troops they aren't going to be involved in training but involved in protect you are diplomatic forces. you can call them what you want but one of lessons learned in operation iraqi freedom is that every troop has to be combat ready. and that's to the going to change. >> that is actually one of the questions i was going to ask is you have had 50,000 troops on the ground. are they supposed to sit around and watch the iraqi forces engage in what they don't engage? >> well look, again, i think the key deadline was last summer. we have already adopted a posture of training and advising. i think we still have targeted operations against insurgent groups and terrorist groups and these have begun quite effective even as we are drawing down the force there the real challenge in the next year is paging sure the iraqis stand up. everybody talks about the surge of u.s. forces in 2007, the real surge that mattered was the surge of iraqi forces. the u.s. surge was about a 15% increase. the eye rock-- iraqi forces during that same period doubled. and that is what matters the most is iraqis have a strong emphasis to take control of their own affairs. >> did it work in the end. >> it did not in terms of actually you look at the political divisions in iraq, and one of the goals of the surge was actually to reduce the violence, get iraqi leaders to bridge their political divide. i argue that the surge actually froze those positions in place. and also for those who like to talk about a counterinsurgency strategy, achieving results on the ground in iraq, there are millions of iraqis who don't see the benefits of basic services and increased security. coun insurgency did not succeed in the way that i think it is portrayed in washington. >> i think counterinsurgencys did succeed to some extent in giving the political-- the political elite to move there is still a lot to be done. one of the most interesting and important statistics from the iraqi elections last march is that only 20% of the incumbents runed to office. some of that is because they chose not to run again. some of that was because they were thrown out of office. as the younger generation and as the iraqis basically say, enough of theette no sectarian strife, we want results. >> but they haven't been able to form a government. >> this is the main problem. but so far until this point, they're combating themselves politically. they are debating. they're arguing. the question is if we withdrawal in the midst of that, whether some might decide to try to impose through force of arms what they can't win on the floor of the assembly. >> why is this divide so stubborn, so wide and what difference does it make whether the u.s. is there or not in order to close it? >> well, look, i think we should take a step back and look at the iraq war and its impact on u.s. national security. and more than seven years later it is still a net negative. when you measure for u.s. national security interests. what we have is emboldened iran. some of iran's best allys are now in power in baghdad. we helped create for a while there a live training ground for terrorists who are now using some of the tactics they tested on the battlefield against us in iraq at this point. so for those who argued seven years ago that we're going to have tsunamis of democracy and that the region will be completely changed, they were proven wrong. and i think what we're now trying to do is take a sad song and make it better. >> i will disagree with that, obviously. certainly i think it's a mistake to assume that iraqi-- even iraqi shi'a leaders are necessarily pro irania -- iraniaian. if the americans underestimated the impact of occupation, the biggest mistake iranians have made is not understanding the importance of iraqi nationalism. what we are seeing is a correction after decades of saddam hussein dictatorship and the fact of the matter is iraq is now the largest arab democracy. and it has succeeded in that term, even though it still has a way to go. >> let's talk about deadlines. we have deadlines which are now the president, says today, being met in iraq and deadlines which are looming in afghanistan and there is quit a debate going on about whether that is a good idea or not. based on what we have seen in iraq, and i know there is a lot of differences in the two situations, but based on what we have seen in iraq is it a good idea to be seting a deadline for a pullout in afghanistan. >> absolutely. because if you don't, you foster a culture of dysfunctional dependency on the united states. you send the wrong message-- message that we are going to be there and spend billions of dollars no matter what. that actually fosters among the political elite in these countries the sense that we have a security umbrella. and we need to send a clear message that we are going to support you. but under certain conditions. and if you act in a certain way. and this has not been the case i think in afghanistan which is a real danger, i think, at this point. even the time line that was set for next summer is a soft time line. it is not a true time line. we need to send a signal that you've got to take care of your own affairs. >> deadlines are important but it depends on how they are imposed. i certainly agree with brian that you don't want to create a sense of dependency. but if you are going to have a deadline you don't make it based on the american political calendar. you make it based on the reality on the ground in iraq or in afghanistan. you ask before what will it take for iraqis to make a decision. well, in the fast whenever there has been a deadline, they went behind closed doors two days before the deadline, they smoked. they drank lots of tee and-- tea and perhaps other things and emerged 24 hours after that deadline with a government. the problem right now is there is not that external pressure and we're about to remove even more external pressure allowing them to delay their decision. >> michael rubin of the american enterprise institute, brian katulis, at the centre for american progress, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> still to come on the newshour, >> woodruff: still to come on the newshour, the oil spill seen from a ship at the center of the containment efforts; secretary sebelius on health care reform; the deadly floods in northwest pakistan; and a son writes about his famous father. but first, the other news of the day. here's hari sreenivasan in our newsroom. >> sreenivasan: six children died in a suicide car bombing in southern afghanistan today. they were in a market area when the bomb went off. it happened in a district west of kandahar city. the target appeared to be a police truck carrying an afghan official. he escaped unharmed. president obama today acknowledged "huge challenges" remain in afghanistan, but he said there has been progress. on sunday, the netherlands became the first "nato" country to withdraw troops from afghanistan. 1,900 dutch soldiers began leaving yesterday. wall street opened august with big gains today. the rally took off after news that factory activity has now increased for 12 straight months. the dow jones industrial average gained 208 points to close at 10,674. the nasdaq rose 40 points to close at 2295. and the price of oil moved back above $80 a barrel for its highest close in nearly three months. another veteran democrat, california congresswoman maxine waters, now faces charges of violating house ethics rules. the house ethics committee announced today she'll face trial in the fall. details were not available, but investigators focused on waters' seeking federal help for a bank where her husband was a board member. she has denied any wrongdoing. fellow house democrat charles rangel of new york also faces an ethics trial this fall. in russia, the death toll from hundreds of wildfires has now hit 40. 500 new fires broke out in the last 24 hours alone, concentrated in central and western russia. firefighters put most of them out, but in recent days, 77 towns and villages have been damaged or destroyed. smoke from the fires has even draped moscow in a haze. a record heat wave has fueled fires, and readings may hit 100 degrees again this week. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to gwen. >> ifill: now to the latest on the oil spill in the gulf of mexico. engineers are on the brink of permanently killing the macondo oil well, and are set to begin tests tonight on procedures that will make that happen. this weekend, newshour correspondent tom bearden visited the site of that well and reports on the efforts that one ship played in containing the oil. >> the drill ship discovererer enterprise was at the centre of the effort to choke off the red brown gusher a pile beneath the surface of the gulf. the operators of the ship's remotely controlled underwater vehicles tried a variety of containment domes before finally finding the right combination of pipes and valves that once bolted to the well could stifle the high pressure oil jet. jim stewart is the ship's captain. >> the perception of some us watching from shore was we tried something, it didn't work. you tried something else t didn't work. you tried something else and it still didn't work. at any point did you ever think you couldn't do this? >> no. you can't go into it thinking that way. there were weeks of planning before anything really happened as a lot of people probably wondered at home, what is taking so long. and the proper planning over and over with a lot of people, hours of conference calls took place before we took action. and once we did take action, it was successful and it was because of all that planning. >> reporter: this is what we call an executive walkway. it is an entry to the rig floor. >> reporter: offshore installation manager jason took a group of journalists on a tour of the massive shim. it's capable of drilling two wells at once. so there are stacks of steel pipes ready for use. cranes to move them. a towering derek to hoist them into place. he says the crew is the elated as the job seems to be almost over. >> really good about this operation, really good about what we have accomplished. you know, we did this incident-free, with no harm to any personnel out here. so it is a good accomplishment. >> reporter: proud of it. >> damn proud of it. you don't see any oil out here and it's great to know we entered the last stages of this operation. >> reporter: any doubt this is the last stage. >> no i think we're going to be successful. i'm pretty... really confident we're going to be successful. >> reporter: discovererer enterprise is in standby mode right now. she has moved about a half mile from the blownout well. another drilling platform called the q4,000 and two support vessel-- vessels are in the final stages of preparing the so-called static kill. those vessels have the equipment to inject heavy drilling mud into the top of the well to push the column of oil back down the pipe then inject a slug of cement to seal it permanently. but discoverer enterprise is ready to move if should there be a problem, an 8 generation containment cap dangables from a cable positioned from the bottom. the crew is ready to put it in position should the well need to be sealed again. ron gretzky pilots a remotely operated vehicle orr ov from a darkened room below deck. he keeps an electronic eye on the standby cap using a joystick and throttle to control the machine. rovs are the only way to work at depths that would invantly crush a human diver. he was part of the rov crew that attached the cap that finally stopped the flow. >> the most pressure is what we put on our self-s. i mean granted there was a lot, a lot of people watching what we were doing, you know. a lot of people, a lot of eyes on, making sure we, you know, did it right. but i think the most pressure is what we put on ourselves. >> reporter: also feel a bit of relief. >> oh, absolutely. that relief, when they put that final cap on, hopefully, you know, and said that they stopped the oil flow, i think everybody started breathing a little easier then. >> reporter: it wasn't all done from an air conditioned room, however. when the discoverer enterprise was connected to the containment cap and oil was still flowing the ship collected large quantities of oil and natural gas and had to flare off the gas by means of a boom projecting out over the water. >> this was the flare boom, this is where we had the 50 to 100 foot flames burning, where we couldn't even have a conversation because of the noise. it sounded like a big jet engine on the noise that was generated by that flame. >> 12 hour day there this heat under the environment that that we had here, i wish you could have seen that and heard it and felt it. the heat was not bearable. you could only work in that area so long and have to get out. >> reporter: even if the static kill is successful, b.p. and transocean plan to complete one of the two relief wells they started drilling shortly after the blowout. the drilling platforms that are doing that work are anchored on either side of the original well. the original plan had been to intersect the well casing 18,000 feet beneath the surface then inject drilling mud and cement. b.p. officials said the exact procedure may change but remain confident they will permanent-- permanently seal the well. >> in washington today >> ifill: in washington today, the environmental protection administration defended b.p.'s use of chemical dispersants to break up the oil. its study, which found the chemicals no more or less toxic to aquatic life than oil alone, came in response to critics who said b.p. overused thousands of gallons of the dispersant. >> woodruff: now to the impact of the health care reform law, and the battles that are continuing to play out over its enactment. health correspondent betty ann bowser begins with this report. the health unit is a partnership with the robert wood johnson foundation. >> it's been just over four months since president obama signed the health reform bill into law. but it remains under attack across much of the country. at least 20 more states are now challenging the constitutionality of the new law either in court or on the ballot. in virginia today a federal judge allowed the first lawsuit to go forward. by denying a motion from the justice department to dismiss a case filed by the state attorney general. it argues the law is unconstitutional because it requires most americans to buy insurance. tomorrow voters in missouri will decide whether to pass referendum c which would make it against the law to require people to buy insurance. for its part democrats and the obama administration are trying to... to persuade americans that health-care reform will be a major improvement. >> how are you this morning? >> the latest announcement, a new report that says the law will pay medicare $8 billion over the next few years and $575 billion over the rest of the decade. so far some portions of the law are already taking affect or will begin to do so this fall, including stopping insurance companies from excluding coverage for children with preexisting conditions. allowing young people to stay on their parents' insurance until age 26. giving $250 rebate checks to seniors to buy prescription drugs and issuing new rules to allow people to appeal claims that have been denied by insurance companies. by 2014 the administration says it expects 26 million more americans to have insurance. much information about the law's impact can be found on hhs's new web site. and last week the president touted the law's benefits. >> that's why we passed this reform. to put americans in control of their health care, no matter your age or situation, there's something for everyone at healthcare.gov. >> we looked at your blood pressure today and it is great. >> reporter: but there still is plenty of resistance and skepticism. >> lift it up again straight. >> reporter: polls show many americans are wary or opposed to the law. although numbers have slightly improved. heading into the midterm elections, republicans are arguing that many americans don't like the law. this was senate minority leader mitch mcconnell last week at an event in kentucky. >> we jammed health care through on a totally partisan basis in spite of widespread public outrage. so this is serious and sustained disconnect between some in washington and the rest of the country on issues that have a major impact on people's lives. >> reporter: republicans are hoping to keep health-care reform front and center. and they say if they pick up enough seats, they will push for repeal of the legislation. we take a look at these echlt we take a closer look now at these developments and the battle over the law with the secretary of health and human services, kathleen sebelius. madam secretary, thank you for being with us. >> good to be with you, judy. >> so four months in after the law passed and still such vehement opposition out there. half the states are trying to repeal this in one form or another. how do you explain this? >> well, i think first of all this has been a long and very partisan debate, full of lots of misinformation. so there are a lot of people who still don't knows what's in the law, don't know what exactly it means to them and their familiesment and what we're trying to do is actually get information, get some tools as the president said, whether it's the new web site, health care.gov which is really pretty dazzling. it gives people information that they have never had before in bun place. or you know, mailing information to seniors. once people know what the law means to them and their families, that their adult child stays on their plan. or that no longer will a child with preexisting condition be able to be kicked out of an insurance plan by insurers. they become much more enthusiastic about what actually the affordable care act does. >> i want to ask you about that because the president did say that in the run-up to the passage of this legislation. he said once people knows what's in here they are going to like it but the polls still show, yes, there is some more support but over 50% of seniors still say they are disappointed it in this law. >> well, when you think about what happened to seniors during the course of this debate, it borders on outrage us. senior, i would say, were really targeted with a whole series of misinformed statements that were designed to scare them about the law, to get them to actually call on their members of congress and senate to stop it, starting with everything from death panels which still most seniors think are part of the affordable care act. >> is that right. >> absolutely. the recent polling says that seniors think this action was passed into law. seniors think that there is a change in their guaranteed benefit under medicare. nothing could be further from the truth. the guaranteed benefits are not only stronger than ever, we're going after fraud and abuse in a way that has never been focused on. and the medicare solvency is much stronger than it was before the law was passed. >> i want to ask you about that in a minute. but today's ruling by a virginia judge saying that this challenge to the constitutionality of a law can go forward. what about the argument that is being made that it's not constitutional to tell people they must buy health insurance. >> well, i think when you think about it, judy, first of all it's not a surprise that the ruling came today. what it basically does is now there can be a debate on the merits of the case. so it's really a threshold argument. did the attorney general have standing. >> what dow mean it's not a surprise it came today? >> well, i think that being portrayed as somehow a major ruling. all the judge said is come to court and then talk about the merits of the case. we're convinced that there are strong constitutional basis for this. and the interstate commerce which is the purview of the federal government governing business that travels back and forth across states, when you think about health care, there is a lot of interstate commerce. a lot of the health markets are regional. and people pay taxpayers pay for every dollar of uncompensated care for everyone who comes through an emergency room door that goes on to the backs of taxpayers and lots of people who pay insurance policies and pay more for those who are uncompensated. >> meanwhile you have republicans who are saying whatever happens in the courts, they're going to continue to try to chip away at this legislatively. they're going to try to deny funding for big chunks of this. do you ever worry that you are out there trying to defend something that's going to be hollowed out? >> well, i hope we are able to engage in a straightforward manner this fall in that debate. i think it's time for republicans to go to their constituents and tell parents who have a child under the age of 26 your son or daughter, we want to take back their right to enroll in your insurance policy, we want to make sure that insurance companies, mr. republican congressman or congresswoman are going to be able to kick your sick child out of a plan. we want to make sure that seniors will not see their prescription drug doughnut hole closed over time. that's a debate i welcome. and i hope that we are able to talk about it. repealing this bill means taking benefits away from lots of americans who are really relying on this change, once and for all, to get some tools into their own hands. >> on the savings that you have been talking about today, that will be realized for medicare, republicans like charles grassley, you've got the insurance industry now saying the cuts that will come to private medicare plans will result in huge increases in premiums for seniors which will then force them to give up their medicare. >> well, i didn't think that's rack rate, first of all. the data shows that about a fourth of the medicare beneficiaries choose a medicare advantage plan. we have more companies offering medicare advantage right now than we've ever had before. >> this is private. >> these are the private choices. so you can either choose traditional medicare or a medicare advantage plan. but we have overpaid by about 14%. and everybody else in medicare pays for that-- pays more for their medicare policies. no additional health benefits to the people who choose. all we're saying is gradually over time, that overpayment should start-- we think there is going to be plenty of choice. >> and what is going to happen to those seniors who are on those plans. >> they will absolutely have the choice of those plans. those plans will stay in effect. they will stay in the market. in fact, the senators for medicare services has issued a notice to companies saying there will not be a cut next year. there will be a flat line for medicare advantage plan so come in with your package of proposals. come in with your bid. but we think there are going to be plenty of options for seniors who want to continue on a medicare advantage plan. >> let me ask you about another headache that is medicaid funding for individuals, the poor, a number of states, governors are coming to you to the obama administration saying wait a minute this law means that we don't have the flexibility to deal with these rising medicaid costs. our budgets are being stretched and strapped. are you saying to the states that are struggling with this right now? >> first of all as you know i was one of them until very recently, governor of a state, watching the medicaid budget and this is a federal state partnership. no question about it. the first thing we need to do is get congress to act on the extension of the assistance for medicaid programs across the country. that's been pending now for months and months and months. and tonight again came a near vote in the senate. it's now been pushed off to wednesday. but that's a huge step forward for states to pass the fmap. the federal matching plan. secondly in 2014 when the affordable care act has an expanded medicaid opportunity for lots of adult was don't qualify, it's paid for 100% by federal funds for the first four years and then gradually received to a 90% federal funding. so this is a huge number of people who currently are coming through the doors of emergency rooms and states, states are picking up costs for all kinds of health-related costs. and the federal government is saying we think we should cover everyone. and we think we are going to pay for it, and help new this partnership. >> so many, many questions out there. and we thank you for dealing with some of them with us. secretary sebelius, thanks so much. >> sure. >> still to come on the newshour, pakistan devastating floods, and jean- michel cousteau writes about "my father, the captain." but first, this is pledge week on public television. we're taking a short break so your local pbs station can explain how your support helps keep programs like ours on the air. >> woodruff: for those stations not taking a pledge break, the newshour continues now with a story from a new project we call "newshour connect." that's where we showcase the best of public media reporting from around the country. tonight, from a collaboration of maine, new hampshire, and vermont pbs stations, a report on a community-based effort to help the local fishing industry survive. the reporter is phil vaughn. ted. >> reporter: at hampton harbor marina not far from the open atlantic sits the allen dianne. her cap-- captain is david dayhull. >> i started fish approximating in 1967 working as crew on a party boat in seabrook. >> reporter: for nearly 30 years the ellen dianne has carried he and his crew to sea. they fish for a living. >> it's never the same two days in a row. the fish got tails. they know how to use them. and despite all the electronics in this whole house, that stuff doesn't find anything it is the guy that drives the boat that finds the fish. so i like the challenge. i like the mental challenge. >> reporter: and that's a good thing. new england's fishing industry is facing a boatload of challenges. the costs of getting to the fish is going up. the market is shrinking. and new regulations reduce the size of the catch. what has that done for liver lee hood. >> in new hampshire it put about 50% of the boats out of business. and the other 50% to the left are facing a very uncertain future. >> reporter: but the men and women who make a living on water know how to survive. ten years ago in new hampshire, they created yankee fisherman's co-op. >> any product that gets sold through here that makes money puts money in their pocket. >> reporter: bob campbell manages the co-op. members bring their catch to him where it is documented. a portion goes to restaurants and stores which eliminates the middleman. the director who normally takes a percentage of the profit. this year yankee co-op and its 62 members are trying something new for new hampshire. a community supported fish ree known as csf. >> this was our first year to do a community supported fishery for our native shrimp. the native shrimp market over the past few years has been very limited and we've been trying to work out a way where we could get direct to consumer. >> the co-op produces small quantities of shrimp for people who agree to buy a certain amount over a period of time in increments of five or ten pounds. >> reporter: new hampshire fisherman switched to the csf direct marketing model to retain more profit from an increasingly difficult livelyhood. >> people in north carolina in the fishing industry began looking at this kind of mode of selling which is very innovative for the fishing industry. and then this group in maine said hey, you know, this could work. we might be able to do it here. >> reporter: ken is a commercial fishery specialist at the university of new hampshire. he says there are real economic benefits with community supported fisheries. >> for the shrimp industry and for the yankee pusherman's co-op, this year fisherman may have been getting about 50 cents a pound in the first year but they sold probably 10,000 pounds of shrimp that they wouldn't have otherwise sold. and they sold it at 1.60 a pound instead of 51 cents a pound. >> reporter: and he says there is another benefit, one that fisherman are now getting used to. >> yes, it's a reinvestigation, it's important that fisherman are now finding innovative ways to make more money to maintain themselves in this livelihood. could you imagine new england without a fishing community? i can't. so it's great fisherman are you now thinking this way. but there is a social aspect too. >> it is developing a relationship between... between local consumers and fishermanmen. >> here, you know what they caught today, they just took out of 9 water it is as fish as-- fresh as you can get. >> and you get to meet the fishermen, right? >> yeah. >> you like the model, does it work? >> yeah, i like the model. i wish we could get more people involved. >> we need about ten times the interest in the c sfrx than we have right now. >> you can see all of the story on community fishing on our web site newshour newshour.pbs.org. >> next tonight the devastating flood in pakistan. some in areas where the military have been fighting insurgents. more than a thousand people have died, up to 2 million displaced. we have a report narrated by jonathan miller of independent television news. >> reporter: villages and villagers reportedly washed away by walls of water. entire districts submerged. cropland inundated, drinking water contaminated, communications down, bridges destroyed, roads gone, schools gone, homes gone. thousands of them. >> this is known as the flood of the century and this has virtually devastated most of the structures, especially the areas close to the rivers. >> reporter: many areas in remoter parts still inaccessible. with news still filtering in, a sense that this is not the full story yet. these among the very poorest people in pakistan, 3 million of them already up set by war with taliban insurgence along the afghan border, and now this. >> we are cleaning our remaining wheat which is almost spoiled. we have nothing. we are just depending on the mercy of god. nothing left except this wet wheat. >> reporter: the pakistan-armed forces now using a fleet of 40 military helicopters to deliver aid and rations. the u.n. world food program says the floodwaters damaged grain warehouse stocks in the relief operations in pakistan and next door afghanistan. the needs are absolutely huge. snakes are a big problem after floods like these. water-borne diseases a big concern. where roads aren't washed away, a massive exodus. and the national government too diluged by undiluted rage. >> this is our fifth day. nobody has come from the government. we're staying on the pun taken. we lost everything. it's each man for himself and we have no help. >> reporter: islamist parties and charitable wings of prescribed jihadi groups are moving in to fill the vacuum. one of these a group has sent off 13 rescue teams and is providing food, medicine and water. the rich in a region where taliban linked groups have caused so much suffering n may last year a million people fled in terror from the swat valley as the islamists took on the army. today the taliban in pakistan told us they temporarily suspended attacks in flood-hit areas to give people a chance to seek forgiveness for opposing them. this is the u.n.'s latest map of the worst affected areas. where floodwater levels are the highest. swat district and the region south of peshawar are the most severely flooded. it's there that loss of life and damage have been greatest. in kazmir water levels up by 5 to 7 meters in the rivers. huge landslides blocked roads and many deaths reported. the monsoon waters followed the floodplain of the ander civ south into punjab. this is the british met office five-day forecast up to friday night. more intense monsoon rain to come, pockets of more than 200 millimeters. the heaviest rain shifting ever southwards. as will be the floot floodwaters down the indes. in some parts they warn localized thunderstorms could be even more intense than forecast. local governments say the flood defences should be able to take it. but they won't have seen >> well, let me ask you finally about that that. because for the television audience his legacy is sort of bringing us to these places. and showing us worlds that we otherwise wouldn't see. as his son, friend, employee, how do you see his legacy? >> i think his legacy was to open our minds as to the importance of the ocean as a life-support system. the fact that every human being on the planet depend on the quality of that ocean for the quality of our lives whether you live along the coastline or way inland we all connected to the ocean. the next time you drink a glass of water, you are drinking the ocean. and it's pure. it's clean. and then we disposed of it and it goes into the streams, into the rivers and right back into the ocean. with everything we put into it. not just what we see, the garbage that we see, but toxic materials like chemicals and heavy metals and that can be absorbed to some extent by nature but there is a point where too much is too much. and we've reached that point in certain parts of the planet. and it is affected or effecting the marine life, some of it we harvest and put back on our plates. so it's now coming back into ourselves. >> all right, the book is "my father, the captain," with jean- michel cousteau, nice to talk to you. >> thank you very much. >> again, the major developments of the day. president obama boasted of progress in iraq, and he said the u.s. combat role will end, as scheduled, at the end of the month. wall street started the month with a major rally. the dow jones industrial average gained more than 200 points. and b.p. engineers made ready to try killing the macondo oil well in the gulf for good if testing tonight goes according to plan. the newshour is always online. hari sreenivasan, in our newsroom, previews what's there. hari? >> sreenivasan: we've launched a new feature on the rundown. every monday, politics editor david chalian talks to gwen ifill and judy woodruff about political stories to watch. tonight, president obama's speech about iraq, among other topics. from the gulf, tom bearden filed another blog about the "discoverer enterprise," and sent video from his helicopter trip to the flotilla. we look at the new healthreform.gov web site, and how it may or may not help consumers navigate the changes. and we wrap up our reports on arizona's immigration law with a profile of arizona republic photographer nick oza. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. gwen? >> ifill: and that's the newshour for tonight. on tuesday, we'll assess b.p.'s static kill operation, its latest effort to seal the blown- out well. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you 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>> woodruff: u.s. health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius is here to talk about the latest developments on health care reform. >> ifill: jonathon miller of independent television news has an update on the floods in pakistan that have killed more than 1,000 people his weekend. >> woodruff: and jeffrey brown has a book conversation with ocean explorer jean-michel cousteau about his famous father, jacques cousteau. >> ifill: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: the president boasted of progress in iraq today as the american combat effort, if not the diplomatic one, winds down. mr. obama spoke to a disabled veterans convention in atlanta. >> as a candidate for president i pledge to bring the war in iraq to a responsible end. >> reporter: and today addressing the disabled american veterans, president obama declared the american-led war is nearing its end. >> shortly after taking office i announced our new strategy for iraq and for a transition to full iraqi responsibility. and i made it clear that by august 31st 2010, america's combat mission in iraq would end. (applause) >> and that is exactly what we are doing. as promised and on schedule. >> reporter: the american force in iraq has already shrunk by 90,000 over the last year and a half. and it's on track to drop to 50,000 by month's end. all american troops are scheduled to leave at the end of next year. >> during this period our forces will have a focused mission supporting and training iraqi forces, partnering with iraqis and counterterrorism missions, and protecting our civilians and military efforts. these are dangerous tasks. there are still those with bombs and bullets who will try to stop iraq's progress. and the hard truth is we have not seen the end of american sacrifice in iraq. >> reporter: more than 4400 american troops have died in iraq in seven and a half years of fighting. with thousands more wounded. but so far this year 43 americans have been killed fewer than last month alone in afghanistan. at least 100,000 iraqis have died in the war, some estimates are much higher in what at times has been brutal sectarian strikesment but the president pointed to major improvements during recent years. >> today even as terrorists try to derail iraq's progress, because of the sacrifices of our troops and their iraqi partners, violence in iraq continues to be near the lowest it's been in years. >> reporter: republicans point out that because mr. obama opposed the u.s. surge in iraq he deserves scant credit for any success. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. >> thanks to the determination of general petraeus, general mcchrystal and ambassador crocker the counterinsurgency strategy was allowed to take root and to succeed. >> reporter: but the violence is far from ended. today a bomb blast in baghdad killed 12. and the iraqi government says there were more than 500 civilian deaths in july, a record for the year. the u.s. military disputes that figure. as the american commitment strengths iraq's political impasse continues. the march election was the first planned and runed by iraqis and it produced record turnout. but in the five months since prime minister nearee al-maliki has not been able to form a governing coalition among his shiite partners. a main opponent is alawi, the shiite former prime minister who created a secular sectarian bloc that garnered more votes than maliki. at a recent meeting in dam as ca cirrus ya, alawi asked fourth from al-sadr who once waged open war. >> there were old disagreements. i forget them, in order to make the political process move forward. and i hope that in the future there would not be any disagreement with alawi or anyone else. >> reporter: despite visits from vice president biden and a host of other top american officials, there seems no end in sight for the deadlock. that has raised fears of renewed sectarian bloodletting just as the american combat presence fades. now for more on for more on the complicated nature of the u.s. drawdown, we turn to brian katulis, who worked for president clinton's national security council and advised the obama presidential campaign on iraq. he's now a senior fellow at the center for american progress. and michael rubin, an adviser to the u.s.-led occupation authority in iraq under president george w. bush. he's now a resident scholar at the american enterprise institute. >> welcome to you both, gentlemen. when the president says to today brian katulis that we are moving from the combat mission to the diplomatic mission, what does that really mean? >> well, president obama is trying to send a message that what he promised as a candidate, that we will implement a phased with drawal of troops but we will commit to enduring support, diplomatic, economic, political support for iraq, this is what he is explaining to the american public. we are in this transition phase and that the combat phase has ended. we're going to fade to the background and offer support to the iraqi government and the iraqi people over the long hall. >> michael rubin, are you hearing fade to the background when you hear that? >> i most certainly am hearing fade to the background. we could certainly have a debate over whether it's wise to fade towards the background or whether it's wise to adhere to this deadline which is a political deadline which president obama came out during his campaign, and is quite different from the legal deadline. >> you obviously don't think it is wise, tell me why sm. >> i don't think it is wise for a few reasons. number one, iraq's government hasn't formed yet. there is still a lot of fault lines along kirkut, around mozul and whether we like it or not u.s. influence is tied to the number of troops we have on the ground. that doesn't mean they shouldn't withdraw, but we've got to be prepared if we do withdraw them, that we're not going to have that tripwire in place should iraqi crises break out in this time without a government. >> how about that brian katulis t has been five months since that election. they are still trying to make sense of it, sort it out. how do we know that we can afford to pull back as the president promised? >> i think we can afford to because u.s. troops for the last year in essence have not been on iraqi treat stroos. one of the biggest market points and michael wrote about this last summer was when we withdrew from populated areas. and much of our draw down has already been implemented and as admiral mike mullen the chairman of joint chiefs staff said last week, he is pleased with the progress. so our top military commander said everything is going okay. the simple fact of the mat certificate that this time line is something that iraqis actually want. they demanded this from the bush administration. the bush administration did not want to have a time line and it was the iraqi government that forced the united states's hand. and they said look, we want to take back control of our country and iraqis are doing that. they are a proud nation. they actually want to take control of their country. they have substantial political differences in forming a government but we should not stand in the way in the efforts of iraqis to take control of their own affairs. >> he's arguing that it doesn't matter whether everything is fixed completely. it's time to go because the iraqis want the u.s. to go. >> well, the iraqis certainly do want the u.s. to go and that is why they agreed to a deadline of september 13, 2011, august 341s2010 is president obama campaign rhetoric back when he was a senator. >> but there would still be 50,000 troops there. >> there will still be 50,000 troops there. but the number of troops on the ground now with president obama is also do something a bit of smoke and mirrors because when he says these aren't combat troops they aren't going to be involved in training but involved in protect you are diplomatic forces. you can call them what you want but one of lessons learned in operation iraqi freedom is that every troop has to be combat ready. and that's to the going to change. >> that is actually one of the questions i was going to ask is you have had 50,000 troops on the ground. are they supposed to sit around and watch the iraqi forces engage in what they don't engage? >> well look, again, i think the key deadline was last summer. we have already adopted a posture of training and advising. i think we still have targeted operations against insurgent groups and terrorist groups and these have begun quite effective even as we are drawing down the force there the real challenge in the next year is paging sure the iraqis stand up. everybody talks about the surge of u.s. forces in 2007, the real surge that mattered was the surge of iraqi forces. the u.s. surge was about a 15% increase. the eye rock-- iraqi forces during that same period doubled. and that is what matters the most is iraqis have a strong emphasis to take control of their own affairs. >> did it work in the end. >> it did not in terms of actually you look at the political divisions in iraq, and one of the goals of the surge was actually to reduce the violence, get iraqi leaders to bridge their political divide. i argue that the surge actually froze those positions in place. and also for those who like to talk about a counterinsurgency strategy, achieving results on the ground in iraq, there are millions of iraqis who don't see the benefits of basic services and increased security. coun insurgency did not succeed in the way that i think it is portrayed in washington. >> i think counterinsurgencys did succeed to some extent in giving the political-- the political elite to move there is still a lot to be done. one of the most interesting and important statistics from the iraqi elections last march is that only 20% of the incumbents runed to office. some of that is because they chose not to run again. some of that was because they were thrown out of office. as the younger generation and as the iraqis basically say, enough of theette no sectarian strife, we want results. >> but they haven't been able to form a government. >> this is the main problem. but so far until this point , they're combating themselves politically. they are debating. they're arguing. the question is if we withdrawal in the midst of that, whether some might decide to try to impose through force of arms what they can't win on the floor of the assembly. >> why is this divide so stubborn, so wide and what difference does it make whether the u.s. is there or not in order to close it? >> well, look, i think we should take a step back and look at the iraq war and its impact on u.s. national security. and more than seven years later it is still a net negative. when you measure for u.s. national security interests. what we have is emboldened iran. some of iran's best allys are now in power in baghdad. we helped create for a while there a live training ground for terrorists who are now using some of the tactics they tested on the battlefield against us in iraq at this point. so for those who argued seven years ago that we're going to have tsunamis of democracy and that the region will be completely changed, they were proven wrong. and i think what we're now trying to do is take a sad song and make it better. >> i will disagree with that, obviously. certainly i think it's a mistake to assume that iraqi-- even iraqi shi'a leaders are necessarily pro irania -- iraniaian. if the americans underestimated the impact of occupation, the biggest mistake iranians have made is not understanding the importance of iraqi nationalism. what we are seeing is a correction after decades of saddam hussein dictatorship and the fact of the matter is iraq is now the largest arab democracy. and it has succeeded in that term, even though it still has a way to go. >> let's talk about deadlines. we have deadlines which are now the president, says today, being met in iraq and deadlines which are looming in afghanistan and there is quit a debate going on about whether that is a good idea or not. based on what we have seen in iraq, and i know there is a lot of differences in the two situations, but based on what we have seen in iraq is it a good idea to be seting a deadline for a pullout in afghanistan. >> absolutely. because if you don't, you foster a culture of dysfunctional dependency on the united states. you send the wrong message-- message that we are going to be there and spend billions of dollars no matter what. that actually fosters among the political elite in these countries the sense that we have a security umbrella. and we need to send a clear message that we are going to support you. but under certain conditions. and if you act in a certain way. and this has not been the case i think in afghanistan which is a real danger, i think, at this point. even the time line that was set for next summer is a soft time line. it is not a true time line. we need to send a signal that you've got to take care of your own affairs. >> deadlines are important but it depends on how they are imposed. i certainly agree with brian that you don't want to create a sense of dependency. but if you are going to have a deadline you don't make it based on the american political calendar. you make it based on the reality on the ground in iraq or in afghanistan. you ask before what will it take for iraqis to make a decision. well, in the fast whenever there has been a deadline, they went behind closed doors two days before the deadline, they smoked. they drank lots of tee and-- tea and perhaps other things and emerged 24 hours after that deadline with a government. the problem right now is there is not that external pressure and we're about to remove even more external pressure allowing them to delay their decision. >> michael rubin of the american enterprise institute, brian katulis, at the centre for american progress, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> still to come on the newshour, >> woodruff: still to come on the newshour, the oil spill seen from a ship at the center of the containment efforts; secretary sebelius on health care reform; the deadly floods in northwest pakistan; and a son writes about his famous father. but first, the other news of the day. here's hari sreenivasan in our newsroom. >> sreenivasan: six children died in a suicide car bombing in southern afghanistan today. they were in a market area when the bomb went off. it happened in a district west of kandahar city. the target appeared to be a police truck carrying an afghan official. he escaped unharmed. president obama today acknowledged "huge challenges" remain in afghanistan, but he said there has been progress. on sunday, the netherlands became the first "nato" country to withdraw troops from afghanistan. 1,900 dutch soldiers began leaving yesterday. wall street opened august with big gains today. the rally took off after news that factory activity has now increased for 12 straight months. the dow jones industrial average gained 208 points to close at 10,674. the nasdaq rose 40 points to close at 2295. and the price of oil moved back above $80 a barrel for its highest close in nearly three months. another veteran democrat, california congresswoman maxine waters, now faces charges of violating house ethics rules. the house ethics committee announced today she'll face trial in the fall. details were not available, but investigators focused on waters' seeking federal help for a bank where her husband was a board member. she has denied any wrongdoing. fellow house democrat charles rangel of new york also faces an ethics trial this fall. in russia, the death toll from hundreds of wildfires has now hit 40. 500 new fires broke out in the last 24 hours alone, concentrated in central and western russia. firefighters put most of them out, but in recent days, 77 towns and villages have been damaged or destroyed. smoke from the fires has even draped moscow in a haze. a record heat wave has fueled fires, and readings may hit 100 degrees again this week. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to gwen. >> ifill: now to the latest on the oil spill in the gulf of mexico. engineers are on the brink of permanently killing the macondo oil well, and are set to begin tests tonight on procedures that will make that happen. this weekend, newshour correspondent tom bearden visited the site of that well and reports on the efforts that one ship played in containing the oil. >> the drill ship discovererer enterprise was at the centre of the effort to choke off the red brown gusher a pile beneath the surface of the gulf. the operators of the ship's remotely controlled underwater vehicles tried a variety of containment domes before finally finding the right combination of pipes and valves that once bolted to the well could stifle the high pressure oil jet. jim stewart is the ship's captain. >> the perception of some us watching from shore was we tried something, it didn't work. you tried something else t didn't work. you tried something else and it still didn't work. at any point did you ever think you couldn't do this? >> no. you can't go into it thinking that way. there were weeks of planning before anything really happened as a lot of people probably wondered at home, what is taking so long. and the proper planning over and over with a lot of people, hours of conference calls took place before we took action. and once we did take action, it was successful and it was because of all that planning. >> reporter: this is what we call an executive walkway. it is an entry to the rig floor. >> reporter: offshore installation manager jason took a group of journalists on a tour of the massive shim. it's capable of drilling two wells at once. so there are stacks of steel pipes ready for use. cranes to move them. a towering derek to hoist them into place. he says the crew is the elated as the job seems to be almost over. >> really good about this operation, really good about what we have accomplished. you know, we did this incident-free, with no harm to any personnel out here. so it is a good accomplishment. >> reporter: proud of it. >> damn proud of it. you don't see any oil out here and it's great to know we entered the last stages of this operation. >> reporter: any doubt this is the last stage. >> no i think we're going to be successful. i'm pretty... really confident we're going to be successful. >> reporter: discovererer enterprise is in standby mode right now. she has moved about a half mile from the blownout well. another drilling platform called the q4,000 and two support vessel-- vessels are in the final stages of preparing the so-called static kill. those vessels have the equipment to inject heavy drilling mud into the top of the well to push the column of oil back down the pipe then inject a slug of cement to seal it permanently. but discoverer enterprise is ready to move if should there be a problem, an 8 generation containment cap dangables from a cable positioned from the bottom. the crew is ready to put it in position should the well need to be sealed again. ron gretzky pilots a remotely operated vehicle orr ov from a darkened room below deck. he keeps an electronic eye on the standby cap using a joystick and throttle to control the machine. rovs are the only way to work at depths that would invantly crush a human diver. he was part of the rov crew that attached the cap that finally stopped the flow. >> the most pressure is what we put on our self-s. i mean granted there was a lot, a lot of people watching what we were doing, you know. a lot of people, a lot of eyes on, making sure we, you know, did it right. but i think the most pressure is what we put on ourselves. >> reporter: also feel a bit of relief. >> oh, absolutely. that relief, when they put that final cap on, hopefully, you know, and said that they stopped the oil flow, i think everybody started breathing a little easier then. >> reporter: it wasn't all done from an air conditioned room, however. when the discoverer enterprise was connected to the containment cap and oil was still flowing the ship collected large quantities of oil and natural gas and had to flare off the gas by means of a boom projecting out over the water. >> this was the flare boom, this is where we had the 50 to 100 foot flames burning, where we couldn't even have a conversation because of the noise. it sounded like a big jet engine on the noise that was generated by that flame. >> 12 hour day there this heat under the environment that that we had here, i wish you could have seen that and heard it and felt it. the heat was not bearable. you could only work in that area so long and have to get out. >> reporter: even if the static kill is successful, b.p. and transocean plan to complete one of the two relief wells they started drilling shortly after the blowout. the drilling platforms that are doing that work are anchored on either side of the original well. the original plan had been to intersect the well casing 18,000 feet beneath the surface then inject drilling mud and cement. b.p. officials said the exact procedure may change but remain confident they will permanent-- permanently seal the well. >> in washington today >> ifill: in washington today, the environmental protection administration defended b.p.'s use of chemical dispersants to break up the oil. its study, which found the chemicals no more or less toxic to aquatic life than oil alone, came in response to critics who said b.p. overused thousands of gallons of the dispersant. >> woodruff: now to the impact of the health care reform law, and the battles that are continuing to play out over its enactment. health correspondent betty ann bowser begins with this report. the health unit is a partnership with the robert wood johnson foundation. >> it's been just over four months since president obama signed the health reform bill into law. but it remains under attack across much of the country. at least 20 more states are now challenging the constitutionality of the new law either in court or on the ballot. in virginia today a federal judge allowed the first lawsuit to go forward. by denying a motion from the justice department to dismiss a case filed by the state attorney general. it argues the law is unconstitutional because it requires most americans to buy insurance. tomorrow voters in missouri will decide whether to pass referendum c which would make it against the law to require people to buy insurance. for its part democrats and the obama administration are trying to ... to persuade americans that health-care reform will be a major improvement. >> how are you this morning? >> the latest announcement, a new report that says the law will pay medicare $8 billion over the next few years and $575 billion over the rest of the decade. so far some portions of the law are already taking affect or will begin to do so this fall, including stopping insurance companies from excluding coverage for children with preexisting conditions. allowing young people to stay on their parents' insurance until age 26. giving $250 rebate checks to seniors to buy prescription drugs and issuing new rules to allow people to appeal claims that have been denied by insurance companies. by 2014 the administration says it expects 26 million more americans to have insurance. much information about the law's impact can be found on hhs's new web site. and last week the president touted the law's benefits. >> that's why we passed this reform. to put americans in control of their health care, no matter your age or situation, there's something for everyone at healthcare.gov. >> we looked at your blood pressure today and it is great. >> reporter: but there still is plenty of resistance and skepticism. >> lift it up again straight. >> reporter: polls show many americans are wary or opposed to the law. although numbers have slightly improved. heading into the midterm elections, republicans are arguing that many americans don't like the law. this was senate minority leader mitch mcconnell last week at an event in kentucky. >> we jammed health care through on a totally partisan basis in spite of widespread public outrage. so this is serious and sustained disconnect between some in washington and the rest of the country on issues that have a major impact on people's lives. >> reporter: republicans are hoping to keep health-care reform front and center. and they say if they pick up enough seats, they will push for repeal of the legislation. we take a look at these echlt we take a closer look now at these developments and the battle over the law with the secretary of health and human services, kathleen sebelius. madam secretary, thank you for being with us. >> good to be with you, judy. >> so four months in after the law passed and still such vehement opposition out there. half the states are trying to repeal this in one form or another. how do you explain this? >> well, i think first of all this has been a long and very partisan debate, full of lots of misinformation. so there are a lot of people who still don't knows what's in the law, don't know what exactly it means to them and their familiesment and what we're trying to do is actually get information, get some tools as the president said, whether it's the new web site, health care.gov which is really pretty dazzling. it gives people information that they have never had before in bun place. or you know, mailing information to seniors. once people know what the law means to them and their families, that their adult child stays on their plan. or that no longer will a child with preexisting condition be able to be kicked out of an insurance plan by insurers. they become much more enthusiastic about what actually the affordable care act does. >> i want to ask you about that because the president did say that in the run-up to the passage of this legislation. he said once people knows what's in here they are going to like it but the polls still show, yes, there is some more support but over 50% of seniors still say they are disappointed it in this law. >> well, when you think about what happened to seniors during the course of this debate, it borders on outrage us. senior, i would say, were really targeted with a whole series of misinformed statements that were designed to scare them about the law, to get them to actually call on their members of congress and senate to stop it, starting with everything from death panels which still most seniors think are part of the affordable care act. >> is that right. >> absolutely. the recent polling says that seniors think this action was passed into law. seniors think that there is a change in their guaranteed benefit under medicare. nothing could be further from the truth. the guaranteed benefits are not only stronger than ever, we're going after fraud and abuse in a way that has never been focused on. and the medicare solvency is much stronger than it was before the law was passed. >> i want to ask you about that in a minute. but today's ruling by a virginia judge saying that this challenge to the constitutionality of a law can go forward. what about the argument that is being made that it's not constitutional to tell people they must buy health insurance. >> well, i think when you think about it, judy, first of all it's not a surprise that the ruling came today. what it basically does is now there can be a debate on the merits of the case. so it's really a threshold argument. did the attorney general have standing. >> what dow mean it's not a surprise it came today? >> well, i think that being portrayed as somehow a major ruling. all the judge said is come to court and then talk about the merits of the case. we're convinced that there are strong constitutional basis for this. and the interstate commerce which is the purview of the federal government governing business that travels back and forth across states, when you think about health care, there is a lot of interstate commerce. a lot of the health markets are regional. and people pay taxpayers pay for every dollar of uncompensated care for everyone who comes through an emergency room door that goes on to the backs of taxpayers and lots of people who pay insurance policies and pay more for those who are uncompensated. >> meanwhile you have republicans who are saying whatever happens in the courts, they're going to continue to try to chip away at this legislatively. they're going to try to deny funding for big chunks of this. do you ever worry that you are out there trying to defend something that's going to be hollowed out? >> well, i hope we are able to engage in a straightforward manner this fall in that debate. i think it's time for republicans to go to their constituents and tell parents who have a child under the age of 26 your son or daughter, we want to take back their right to enroll in your insurance policy, we want to make sure that insurance companies, mr. republican congressman or congresswoman are going to be able to kick your sick child out of a plan. we want to make sure that seniors will not see their prescription drug doughnut hole closed over time. that's a debate i welcome. and i hope that we are able to talk about it. repealing this bill means taking benefits away from lots of americans who are really relying on this change, once and for all, to get some tools into their own hands. >> on the savings that you have been talking about today, that will be realized for medicare, republicans like charles grassley, you've got the insurance industry now saying the cuts that will come to private medicare plans will result in huge increases in premiums for seniors which will then force them to give up their medicare . >> well, i didn't think that's rack rate, first of all. the data shows that about a fourth of the medicare beneficiaries choose a medicare advantage plan. we have more companies offering medicare advantage right now than we've ever had before. >> this is private. >> these are the private choices. so you can either choose traditional medicare or a medicare advantage plan. but we have overpaid by about 14%. and everybody else in medicare pays for that-- pays more for their medicare policies. no additional health benefits to the people who choose. all we're saying is gradually over time, that overpayment should start-- we think there is going to be plenty of choice. >> and what is going to happen to those seniors who are on those plans. >> they will absolutely have the choice of those plans. those plans will stay in effect. they will stay in the market. in fact, the senators for medicare services has issued a notice to companies saying there will not be a cut next year. there will be a flat line for medicare advantage plan so come in with your package of proposals. come in with your bid. but we think there are going to be plenty of options for seniors who want to continue on a medicare advantage plan. >> let me ask you about another headache that is medicaid funding for individuals, the poor, a number of states, governors are coming to you to the obama administration saying wait a minute this law means that we don't have the flexibility to deal with these rising medicaid costs. our budgets are being stretched and strapped. are you saying to the states that are struggling with this right now? >> first of all as you know i was one of them until very recently, governor of a state, watching the medicaid budget and this is a federal state partnership. no question about it. the first thing we need to do is get congress to act on the extension of the assistance for medicaid programs across the country. that's been pending now for months and months and months. and tonight again came a near vote in the senate. it's now been pushed off to wednesday. but that's a huge step forward for states to pass the fmap. the federal matching plan. secondly in 2014 when the affordable care act has an expanded medicaid opportunity for lots of adult was don't qualify, it's paid for 100% by federal funds for the first four years and then gradually received to a 90% federal funding. so this is a huge number of people who currently are coming through the doors of emergency rooms and states, states are picking up costs for all kinds of health-related costs. and the federal government is saying we think we should cover everyone. and we think we are going to pay for it, and help new this partnership. >> so many, many questions out there. and we thank you for dealing with some of them with us. secretary sebelius, thanks so much. >> sure. >> still to come on the newshour, pakistan devastating floods, and jean- michel cousteau writes about "my father, the captain." but first, this is pledge week on public television. we're taking a short break so your local pbs station can explain how your support helps keep programs like ours on the air. >> woodruff: for those stations not taking a pledge break, the newshour continues now with a story from a new project we call "newshour connect." that's where we showcase the best of public media reporting from around the country. tonight, from a collaboration of maine, new hampshire, and vermont pbs stations, a report on a community-based effort to help the local fishing industry survive. the reporter is phil vaughn. ted. >> reporter: at hampton harbor marina not far from the open atlantic sits the allen dianne. her cap-- captain is david dayhull. >> i started fish approximating in 1967 working as crew on a party boat in seabrook. >> reporter: for nearly 30 years the ellen dianne has carried he and his crew to sea. they fish for a living. >> it's never the same two days in a row. the fish got tails. they know how to use them. and despite all the electronics in this whole house, that stuff doesn't find anything it is the guy that drives the boat that finds the fish. so i like the challenge. i like the mental challenge. >> reporter: and that's a good thing. new england's fishing industry is facing a boatload of challenges. the costs of getting to the fish is going up. the market is shrinking. and new regulations reduce the size of the catch. what has that done for liver lee hood. >> in new hampshire it put about 50% of the boats out of business. and the other 50% to the left are facing a very uncertain future. >> reporter: but the men and women who make a living on water know how to survive. ten years ago in new hampshire, they created yankee fisherman's co-op. >> any product that gets sold through here that makes money puts money in their pocket. >> reporter: bob campbell manages the co-op. members bring their catch to him where it is documented. a portion goes to restaurants and stores which eliminates the middleman. the director who normally takes a percentage of the profit. this year yankee co-op and its 62 members are trying something new for new hampshire. a community supported fish ree known as csf. >> this was our first year to do a community supported fishery for our native shrimp. the native shrimp market over the past few years has been very limited and we've been trying to work out a way where we could get direct to consumer. >> the co-op produces small quantities of shrimp for people who agree to buy a certain amount over a period of time in increments of five or ten pounds. >> reporter: new hampshire fisherman switched to the csf direct marketing model to retain more profit from an increasingly difficult livelyhood. >> people in north carolina in the fishing industry began looking at this kind of mode of selling which is very innovative for the fishing industry. and then this group in maine said hey, you know, this could work. we might be able to do it here. >> reporter: ken is a commercial fishery specialist at the university of new hampshire. he says there are real economic benefits with community supported fisheries. >> for the shrimp industry and for the yankee pusherman's co-op, this year fisherman may have been getting about 50 cents a pound in the first year but they sold probably 10,000 pounds of shrimp that they wouldn't have otherwise sold. and they sold it at 1.60 a pound instead of 51 cents a pound. >> reporter: and he says there is another benefit, one that fisherman are now getting used to. >> yes, it's a reinvestigation, it's important that fisherman are now finding innovative ways to make more money to maintain themselves in this livelihood. could you imagine new england without a fishing community? i can't. so it's great fisherman are you now thinking this way. but there is a social aspect too. >> it is developing a relationship between... between local consumers and fishermanmen. >> here, you know what they caught today, they just took out of 9 water it is as fish as-- fresh as you can get. >> and you get to meet the fishermen, right? >> yeah. >> you like the model, does it work? >> yeah, i like the model. i wish we could get more people involved. >> we need about ten times the interest in the c sfrx than we have right now. >> you can see all of the story on community fishing on our web site newshou newshour.pbs.org. >> next tonight the devastating flood in pakistan. some in areas where the military have been fighting insurgents. more than a thousand people have died, up to 2 million displaced. we have a report narrated by jonathan miller of independent television news. >> reporter: villages and villagers reportedly washed away by walls of water. entire districts submerged. cropland inundated, drinking water contaminated, communications down, bridges destroyed, roads gone, schools gone, homes gone. thousands of them. >> this is known as the flood of the century and this has virtually devastated most of the structures, especially the areas close to the rivers. >> reporter: many areas in remoter parts still inaccessible. with news still filtering in, a sense that this is not the full story yet. these among the very poorest people in pakistan, 3 million of them already up set by war with taliban insurgence along the afghan border, and now this . >> we are cleaning our remaining wheat which is almost spoiled. we have nothing. we are just depending on the mercy of god. nothing left except this wet wheat. >> reporter: the pakistan-armed forces now using a fleet of 40 military helicopters to deliver aid and rations. the u.n. world food program says the floodwaters damaged grain warehouse stocks in the relief operations in pakistan and next door afghanistan. the needs are absolutely huge. snakes are a big problem after floods like these. water-borne diseases a big concern. where roads aren't washed away, a massive exodus. and the national government too diluged by undiluted rage. >> this is our fifth day. nobody has come from the government. we're staying on the pun taken. we lost everything. it's each man for himself and we have no help. >> reporter: islamist parties and charitable wings of prescribed jihadi groups are moving in to fill the vacuum. one of these a group has sent off 13 rescue teams and is providing food, medicine and water. the rich in a region where taliban linked groups have caused so much suffering n may last year a million people fled in terror from the swat valley as the islamists took on the army. today the taliban in pakistan told us they temporarily suspended attacks in flood-hit areas to give people a chance to seek forgiveness for opposing them. this is the u.n.'s latest map of the worst affected areas. where floodwater levels are the highest. swat district and the region south of peshawar are the most severely flooded. it's there that loss of life and damage have been greatest. in kazmir water levels up by 5 to 7 meters in the rivers. huge landslides blocked roads and many deaths reported. the monsoon waters followed the floodplain of the ander civ south into punjab. this is the british met office five-day forecast up to friday night. more intense monsoon rain to come, pockets of more than 200 millimeters. the heaviest rain shifting ever southwards. as will be the floot floodwaters down the indes. in some parts they warn localized thunderstorms could be even more intense than forecast. local governments say the flood defences should be able to take it. but they won't have seen anything like this for decades >> ifill: finally tonight, a son writes about his famous father and his legendary work in the aquatic world. jeffrey brown has our book conversation. . >> for decades jacques cousteau explored life between the world seas and took television viewer as long and also took along members of his family including his eldest son jean-michel who dove with his father at an early age and later became part of the crew on the calypso, cousteau research vehicle. jacques died in 1997. his son himself an environmentalist and ocean explore certificate founder of the ocean future society and is also produced numerous films about sea life. jean-michel has just published a new book "my father the captain" about both the public life and private side of his famous father. we talked recently in the studios of serious xm radio. >> my father, the captain, my life with jacques cousteau, why did you want to write this book? >> i felt that i wanted to give the public who has been so supportive of everything we have done for decades now, the real captain cousteau, the real person. not just what we perceive publicly. but the behind the scenes. the father, the husband, team leader, and the fact, in my case, where i found myself as i grew up and became part of the team, the fact that i had to juggle all the time because he was my father first, and then he was my friend. and we had really fun relationship. we used to play tennis together. we used to go and have a drink somewhere together. i mean it was just friendship. and then he was my boss. and sometimes wow, you know,. >> that complicates life a little, doesn't it? >> it was a juggling act. literally. and particularly when some of the members of the team who didn't have the guts to speak to him directly would talk to me about issues that they were really bothered by. so i had to make assessments, you know, how do i report that to dad. how do i modify if i have to so that person doesn't get in trouble. and it was tough. >> now you said he was a fungi but he was also a tough guy. >> he was tough, yeah. >> what did the public not know about him? >> i think the public doesn't know that he was determined and nothing was going to stop him. and if he wanted to go there, and didn't have the equipment, he will invent it. if he wanted to go where it's difficult to go, he would find a way to get there. he was an amazing leader for me and i have learned a lot from him. >> what was driving him. was it about going places, discovering things. exploring things. >> curiosity. i think it's curiosity. because when people ask him, well, captain, what do you expect to find? he would always say if i knew, i wouldn't go. so it was the sense of discovery which is obviously related to adventure. because if you don't know what you are going to find out there, it's adventure. >> so i, in many ways i am always intrigued. i wanted to see what is so on the other side of the hill. >> and for you this meant a life that was started when you were a young boy and it shaped your life since, huh? >> it did. because my dad was completely unknown when i was a little kid. and he put a tank on pie back which he had coinvented at that time. and put it on my brother, on my mother. and pushed us overboard and we became scuba divers. it was just, you know, boom. and i remember wanting to talk to him underwater so i would remove my mouth beast and he would take it, put it back in my mouth. and we learned a lot that way. and i think his sense of adventure was infused not force fully through invitation, through okay let's go diving. or let's go to corsica and go on a boat to corsica and spend a week out there and explore. i mean we need to get back to reality and appreciate all the work that has been done to make the public aware of what's out there. and want to discover more because we know nothing about the ocean. >> well, let me ask you finally about that that. because for the television audience his legacy is sort of bringing us to these places. and showing us worlds that we otherwise wouldn't see. as his son, friend, employee, how do you see his legacy? >> i think his legacy was to open our minds as to the importance of the ocean as a life-support system. the fact that every human being on the planet depend on the quality of that ocean for the quality of our lives whether you lip along the coastline or way inland we all connected to the ocean. the next time you drink a glass of water, you are drinking the ocean. and it's pure. it's clean. and then we disposed of it and it goes into the streams, into the rivers and right back into the ocean. with everything we put into it. not just what we see, the garbage that we see, but toxic materials like chemicals and heavy metals and that can be absorbed to some extent by nature but there is a point where too much is too much. and we've reached that point in certain parts of the planet. and it is affected or effecting the marine life, some of it we harvest and put back on our plates. so it's now coming back into ourselves. >> all right, the book is "my father the captainings with jean-michel cousteau, nice to talk to you. thank you very much. >> again, the major developments of the day president obama boasted of progress in iraq, and he said the u.s. combat role will end, as scheduled, at the end of the month. wall street started the month with a major rally. the dow jones industrial average gained more than 200 points. and b.p. engineers made ready to try killing the macondo oil well in the gulf for good if testing tonight goes according to plan. the newshour is always online. hari sreenivasan, in our newsroom, previews what's there. hari? >> sreenivasan: we've launched a new feature on the rundown. every monday, politics editor david chalian talks to gwen ifill and judy woodruff about political stories to watch. tonight, president obama's speech about iraq, among other topics. from the gulf, tom bearden filed another blog about the "discoverer enterprise," and sent video from his helicopter trip to the flotilla. we look at the new healthreform.gov web site, and how it may or may not help consumers navigate the changes. and we wrap up our reports on arizona's immigration law with a profile of arizona republic photographer nick oza. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. gwen? >> ifill: and that's the newshour for tonight. on tuesday, we'll assess b.p.'s static kill operation, its latest effort to seal the blown- out well. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you online, and again here tomorrow evening. thank you, and good night. major funding for the pbs newshour has 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