said you know africa more than i do can we invest together. so some of you maybe having information and moving to the this or other african countries, we know our continent and we are there with you and meet ch challen challenges and opportunities together. thank you for joining me in the panel. [applause] >> our special booktv programming continues over the next several hours with a focus on marijuana. beginning with doug fine on his book "hemp bound: dispatches from the front lines of the next agricultural revolution". in a little more than an hour you will hear from angela hawkin on marijuana legalization. and then "the last pirate". we want to hear from you. tweet us your feedback at twitter.com/booktv. >> doug fine is up next talking about the hemp and argues with the relaxation of marijuana, hemp will become a billion dollar industry soon. this is about an hour. >> hello and thank you so much for coming. i first met doug last year on colorado day, which is august 1st, when we found each other in front of the capital with the hoisting of the hemp flag that went up above our capital. i don't know if you were aware of that but mike bowman made sure there was a hemp >> i was going to be in arizona and so was he and we had lunch and grew fond of each other. and since that time our journeys went to varied places like maui, hoisted the flag over the capital on july 4th and moved the needle on where we are taking this. and colorado claims the grund on being the state that put all of this in motion -- ground -- there was the straw that breaks the camels back and colorado is going to lead the full ending of this prohibition nationally in a very foreseeable future. so it is a great honor and pleasure to introduce my dear friend, doug, who made a dent and mark in my life and spends time on a new mexico ranch milking goats when he is not out on the road helping educate the public about the opportunities before us. he has played an important role in changing the narrative on what we are doing here. with that i would like doug to come to the podium and please welcome my good friend and author, doug fine. [applause]. >> thank you mike and linda. to be mentioned, let alone praised, for people that have done as much for colorado and also humanity means a lot to me. thank you to tattered cover book store and this is the third visit here and you have been tremendous supporters. thank you for having me back. for me to be speaking about hemp when more than a half dozen of the people, the heroes making this happen, are here in the audience tonight, is like giving a talk about boxing with ali in the audience saying i have to get my facts right but also honor these people. the book wouldn't have been written and we would not be seeing the rebirth of this and phot putting farmers back to work. we have hemp seeds she hopes will go into the her coffee soon. she asked for a blessing. this is non-denomnation here. blessings to colorado, hemp, and humanity. and thank you come coming here tonight. julie brought an airloom of a 1771 book printed on hemp paper. thank you for allowing us to be up here. and thank you for the hemp plants and i can feel the carbon dioxide being sucked from the atmosphere. the hardest part of talking about hemp is not sounding like you are roommate with the lava lamp because after two years of research i stand here tell you the roommate with the lava lamp was right about the hemp plant. the time is happening now. how do we get the message across? this year is hemp's biggest year in the possible 10,000 or certainly 77. skipping colorado's achievements for a minute -- the farm bill allows for university research of hemp. it is great first step for people who have been activist for a long time it could be frustrating that only university approved research for the varieties of hemp are approved on the federal level and let's hope the federal agencies -- any dea agencies? welcome if you are here. thank you for coming, guys and ladies. the canadians put their drug squad to work inspecting their crops so we don't have to an across the job firing of the dea agents but come on board and stop saying those silly things about not being able to tell the difference between hemp and cannabis. it isn't true. the farm bill -- our congress did something and legalized hemp for the first time in 77 years. it matters. research is okay for a couple times. canadians did it and their industry is approaching a billion and growing 24% per year. mike who is one of the two hemp heroes that give the introduction tonight this is him last july 4th in conservative buyers, colorado -- replacing gmo corn with hemp. it has been a magical year. linda, jason, lowl, and shout out to eric hunter as well -- people that were involved in the legislative side of making this happen in colorado. colorado is ahead of federal law. we were there in bolder on the first day agriculture was accepting permits for commercial hemp. colorado is saying let's do it! let's go. let's generate the revenue from $300 per acre that canadian farmers are making on their hemp and that is ten times what they make on gmo corn. and for a show of hands, how many people know about this guy? there is going to be a statue of ryan loftland some day. he said i am going to print 50 acres of industrial acres in springfield on family land that is getting federal subsidies for the old way of doing things. big farm business no, we are going back to hemp. he found hemp takes half the water that the wheat he was growing in that land takes and some of his neighbors for whom the reservoir is drying up might be able to heal the soil and get back to the land. remember ryan. he is a hero. so i had no idea when i started researching hemp that instead of being laughed out of committee whenever the iconic clash in the house would bring the hemp bill forward and this was two years ago and i get this saying we will do hemp and he got excited and it is like the committees are like, yeah, no. then all of a sudden it happens right when i am back from two years of world wide research on hemp and have a book about hemp coming out. much more importantly than that, they made the wish in the books second paragraph come true. my plan the day hemp becomes legal is to begin cultivating ten acres of my land so my sweetheart doesn't have to import the material she does to make the shirts i wear. i would like to be buying colorado grown hemp for my girlfriend to make for hemp clothes. it is coming one step closer to reality. if we leave everybody here with one thought, what i am trying to implant in the colorado university and then the u.s. industly, you know north dakota, kentucky, california farmers are chomping at the bit and they read the agriculture journals and know the prices. it is a profitable crop. in farming there is a term dual cropping and it means you use one crop for more than one purpose. so what i would like to see it hemp is tricropping and that is main thing that i set out in hemp found. i got to ride in a limo that was powered by hemp. it was very comfortable. bill altus, thanks for that. but the three, so i want to see tri-cropping with hemps. in every colorado processor i deally community-owned processor, farmers will bring their feed in, which is where the money is today we will talk about, it isn't a comp llicated thing pressing the oil. the gook coming down is an omega super food. i went to a university where they fed the laying hens hemp versus corn feed and the resulting eggs were market hot. the nutritional analysis was way higher content of good things in the hemp fed chickens. seed oil, boom. it comes out and you market it regionally. the seed cake in the press makes fantastic animal feed. i know people that feed their pigs on nothing but that and compost all winter. before tonight's event, mike bowman and i talked about pigs that are hemp-fed in washington states and they are growing fatter and heathier in a study going on there. and that jives with a woman who said she remembered her dad planting hemp along the irrigation ditches as erosion control. so not just the terrible dust bowl in the heart land, but mali and sub-saharan african. and then when planting irrigation was done in the fall they sent the cattle out and the cattle loved it and that jives with the study we see in the universities. there is your seed oil. i visited the biggest hemp mogul in canada. sean crew. they are undergoing their fourth expansion in ten years. it wasn't that big of a factory. it doesn't take much to process oil. that is one section. there is your oil in one section. second section we have this fiber obviously. stronger than steel and they are in benze and bmw's. there is a fiber application which is construction. chop up the hemp fibers, mix with lime, and it makes a pink insulation that is better than the chemical-based products. we are going to revamp the shelves of home depot. but the third element i want i want to leave you with is energy. in europe today, entire communities in germany and austria are becoming energy independent through an anaerobic compbustion product. the units are small and the army is investing in them and that could be in the corner of the factory connect today a grid or maybe a community electric cooperative getting rid of grids and making better and saver distributed grids. you can youtube austria and see this or look up the story of the german town that became fossil-fuel free and are in control of their own energy. i would love to see american communities do that and i would support and advertise it f. fiber, seed oil and energy. we need the energy to happen. how many people have ready "collapse"? it is a scary story that in great civilizations he documents what went wrong and they sound eerily familiar. this is the modern day cambodia culture. for our purposes as neighbors i am your neighbor to the south and we new mexicans shared that area of the four corners. talk about globalization. they were trading from seattle to costa rica. it looked good. cities and trade routes and then it collapse. see if it sounds familiar to you. it is like poisoning the water supply, overdevelopment and followed by nutty right ring leaders at the end. seriously. there is an idea the monuments get bigger and they say keep believing, sorry there is no clean water. we need to tackle this. and as a father i am more c confidant about this. i feel as though the carbon mitigation blue print is in place. make sure you include energy -- this is what we call the upside of prohibition. the canadians have the varieties dialled in and ready for us. america's kentucky hemp seed was the sort of beacon of the world. it led the world. kentucky alone -- the first millionaire was a hemp mogul. hemp was a big business in wisconsin, missouri, ohio -- not so much colorado but it will be now. there was approval for a hemp study in hawaii and we went to visit place that was a warehouse inside a warehouse and opened up a box and there was rotted beef. so we had to start from scratch with research. and people in the room, veronica is one of them, are starting that research now. but we can take the seed industry from canada. the fiber knowledge of china and europe. this is a european dutch factory that makes the fiber that goes into the bmw's and mercedes-benz today. and make them all part of the first generation. this is fun. mercedes doesn't put hemp fiber in its door panels because they are wearing tie die and throwing peace signs. it is because it is an inexpensive, strong force for their vehicles. the company, hemp flax, that provide the hemp have been at it for 20 years. and they have to jerry rig the process even. there is a learning curve, but you colorado residents out there know how to do it. they know how to do big agriculture and they know how to interact with the land around here. it isn't rocket scientist especially when it comes to seeds and that is where you should be starting; with seat cultivers. the federal agencies have to thorn feder allow the federal law and allow you to import seeds here. and university research has been approved by the feds and you trying to bring the tax base back and put farmers to work, colorado state, sorry to be calling you out, boulder and other areas you should be signing on with the farmers and conducting research. the canadians want to buy all of the oil and i love you canada and they have a ban on gmo hemp. but i would rather be boulder county and wells county have regional processors of oil i can buy at my food co-op. chinese presidents visits the hemp factories instead of using money to get rid of them. why would china's president do that? cotton provides 30% of the world's pesticides. so they are poisoning their soil and loosing productivity. they know what is going on. because of the textiles because they girlfriend is interested in it, in the textile world the softness of a shirt you would buy at the mall, some poor bangladesh put it together probably, they call that hand. it is going to be soft. the soft hand. reminds me of a sign field episode with george had the upper hand in the relationship once and he complains to the girl breaking up with him and said i had hand and she said you are going to need it. china is going into hemp fire because they have to. cotton is toxic. the seed oil industry, let's hope one day that will just be the oil industry. it isn't rocket science rendering seed oil. you can do it. i have a list of some and there are more coming online soon. great ones tonight. chitchatting afterwards but we will have to step it outside as the bookstore closes after the q and a. so the oil is this super food. we cannot eat enough of the stuff. we buy 90% of the canadian crops. i am a small-time rancher. so when i interviewed sean crew i said what about people like me, i have 40 acres and will plant 20-30 when it is legal. and he said talk to the hand. if you are under a thousand acres you a hobby farmer. and you know, spoke it like a manitoba guy. a winnipeg jet fan. that is how you do it up there. and that is fantastic and fine. i am doing the math here. this isn't anything other than what people are declaring on their tax refounds. canadians are getting $300 profit per acre so minimum 10,000 acres -- that is more than i made in book sales in my entire career after four books that farmers are making on one-years crop in canada. i don't think you need to do that many acres. a man who was doing everything he could to get hemp to people told me don't let people say it has to be a mega crop, billion dollar industry, you have a network of farms going 15-20 acres of hemp you can have a profitable industry. you all work together and own the processor and are joint investors. i am in the middle ground on this. i am fine with people having a mchemp sandwich at mcdonalds. that is fine with me as long as it isn't hmo. i am going to chose a local source. my goats can't wait to be fed hemp. they told me that during our morning meditation. it is really true. i start every day meditating with goats. it was one of the reasons i was thanking the politicals. i would like to thank the people that do the leg work in the colorado legislator and got the hemp industry going that is going to show the world what the plant has to offer humanity. they are dealing with human beings feeling all kind of energy and bookroom deals and i am milking goats and listen to mating calls. so thank you people in the trenches who made it happen. on the fiber side, things i look like hemp textiles like hemp paper. bless you my publisher printing hemp bound on hundred percent recycled paper and they are going for it. they tried to make hemp happen on the first edition of "hemp bound" and it isn't there anymore. it cannot happen on a mass market paperback. so they are talking about through grow hemp colorado sponsoring a colorado farmer and there is going to be a contest to grow the fiber that can go into the future edition of "hemp bou bound". that might seem wild, but in winnipeg, canada, a government joined private industry -- isn't that wonderful? they are burning the fiber and they have a car and tractor build of hemp and it is out performing petro by every step of the way. they are not hipsters. they are scientist trying to figure out would work. can you see this at your john deer factory? it is built from the hemp you colorado residents are going to manufacture vite manufacture. the first fiber killer app -- plant it for the seed oil, first generation, that is where the money is. your fiber app, if you don't have the skills to do the sophisticated stuff like the textiles, nano technology and body armor -- how many people knew george bush senior's parachute twine was made of hemp that saved his life in world war ii? construction is an easy low maintenance app. the test that are going on in universities in canada especially are showing hemp, crete and mixing with lime and they create carbon negative homes and out performing pink insulation and starting to be developed in load bearing application. i called up a company that is all over england and now they are selling it in in the united states. chop up your fiber and sell it to the construction industry. what hemp creed is done right it creates a light and airy easy to pack. concrete has to be heated up to thousands of degrees. it is intensely energy demanding. so i ask in the book, is this a no-brainer? you are building hemp houses and stores out of hemp. and entire subdivisions. is it a no brainer? and he said it is no-brainer for anyone maintaining the structure they are developing. if you are just trying to do, you know, flipping stuff with whatever is cheapest god knows what toxcity and particle board and dry wall -- and flip it. today in europe it is toss up on cost but the energy efficiency, durability and maintenance with hemp if you are thinking five years ahead is a no-brainer. but i went on sight in canada, ma manitoba, to a house they want to provide it as low income. and they are finding it is extremly mold and mildew and in hawaii they found termite resistant. i asked the real guys, not the pr people and the housing minister giving me the tour, i idea the guys with the construction hats what it was like to build with hemp insulation on the sight. and they said once we got the mixture figured out it was the best job we did. it is quick, you can paint or plaster over it and the energy efficiency is clear even in the middle of building the house. it took a couple days of experimenting with the mixture of hemp mixed with lime to find the consistency. it took a couple days of experimenting to find the ideal mixture. that is the most cynical thing i can tell you about the application. but more than one long-term hempster said they believe construction will be the first fiber killer app. we have 30% of americans as farmers when hemp prohibition started and now we have 1%. and we can talk about the causes of it but the bottom line is farmers are trying to make a living like everybody else and if what they are doing is great for the earth, which hemp is, that is fantastic. & a great bonus. but it is about being able to harvest a crop for which there is a market. and i believe whether it is a thousand acres. i visited his farm. and rebuilding america's seed stock and other people were there. he has $600,000 invested in the farm's harvesting equipment. this is real business. he showed me technology i could not believe. if it is going to be massive i would love to see it be hemp. every hemp bound event i have done i have been asked is monsanto going to take it over? and i say if we get the gmo-ban like they have in place in canada in the united states. i wanted to see if i would explode saying that. it is like we are experiencing technical difficulties on c-span right now. bless you for covering this event. hurray for c-span. you know, i don't know mind when you are driving through minnesota and wisconsin that sed instead of seeing endless field of earth killing corn you see hemp. i will support that. wonderful people, super religious heart land canadian farmers, pauline dick and her terrific kids are growing several hundreds of acres of hemp and she had a dream of making a healthy energy bar. she is a tri-athlete and thought they were not up to par. she put a mixture together from an early hemp harvest and won a contest and got $20,000 and has this incredible hemp energy bar company from the hemp the family grows on the farm in manitoba. skipping ahead, mike bowman is here today, and the hemp brand is encapsulated by the dr. bronners soap company. $54 million company. he collects five times the salary of the lowest paid employee. the olive oil in their soap is from orchids cultivated by israels and palstines. and he looked himself in a cage in front of the whitehouse last year with this hemp plant. this is where i want to apologize for my mother. what are you going to say at the bridge club meeting -- saw your son holding the cannabis plant on the booktv. but no, i am proud to do that. my kids have a great time visiting the hemp field and mike said his grandkids are having a great time this year. so david bronner is arrested in front of the whitehouse. and he is saying it is happening now. thank you again, colorado. as far as the hemp brand goes, that kind of rightiousness is like arm and hammer baking soda that is like a natural way to clean your fridge or counter and hemp has that brand, too. and that is the bottom line reason to make sure there is never any genetically modified hemp. franken hemp that is off-brand and this has been a movement for 77 years to get the plant back to the economy matters. and we should stick to that. for those who come knew to the plant, i should mention hemp prohibition was an accident and a typo. when the misguided marijuana tax app was inputed -- the most interesting thing is that within a few years it was already shipping american business offshore because world war ii broke out and our source for the 40 tons of hemp rigging that every navy vehicle needed was the philippines because farmers couldn't grow hemp anymore but the japanese captured them. all of a sudden you can go to youtube and check out this pr propganda film. the fact it took another 70 years to cultivate again is in sane but it happened. i was reducing the sustainable cannabis industry for my last book and i found it in progressive county in the red woods and if anymore progressive it would be clothing optional in the market. the first area to ban genetically modified organisms. and i asked if the sheriff enforced it and he said there was a ride on gmo corn in the county. which i thought was funny. i am still alive. so you are allowed to speak out against gmo. i love democracy. and this cannabis industry is not an occupier. this is pro-hemp republican senator from kentucky mitch mcconnell leading the charge in the senate. there is a lot of backroom funny stories about what brought senator mcconnell to hemp. and one of them reported by ryan grim suggested that senator mcconnell's colleague in kentucky promised not to run a tea party candidate against him in a primary if he would get behind hemp. whatever it takes. the reason i include my rent sign here is i thought the no passing sign is unfriendly. this is at the interest to my black diamond driveway in the middle of nowhere. this is the sign here: i mentioned this because i have a sympathy for rural america. i am one of you. i am here to help as colorado gets going and introducing people it processors. after the hemp expo, i was approached by a guy that wanted to provide facilities for the farmers. that is why i brought them here. by the way, no one has ever honored that sign. i am not a dedicated nudist and those of you who know i am a goat herder and you would think you can go get your boxers off the laundly line without anyone knowing but it is also when mary is coming down the driveway when i am out there. i think she has binoclars on or something. but in buyers, colorado where he did the planting on july 4th, these were conservative people and didn't hear a negative word about hemp. colorado farmers are ready to go and the reason is because of the dust bowl we are experiencing. this is not a photo from 1932 from the grapes of wrath. this is 2012, lamar, colorado. jol jolene hickson didn't know the difference between marijuana and hemp last year. that is her wheat field. this is no joke. ask a conservative rancher whether or not global warming is real. any time we get off petroleum we replace it with something like building composit and get that into hemp instead of the petro-chemical based building materials we use. any time you get on petroleum you are doing something good were the world. last week in the niger delta terrible things are happening. i am not someone that can criticize the patretroleum induy because i believe they made it great. i will not be able to use my mac without the petroleum. we would not have won world war ii without texas crowd and hemp for that matter. if we have a gusher up there next to the lincoln monument i am cool with that. but that was last century and let's move on to the next thing. the big issue for american farmers now and you colorado residents know that is how do you get your seeds. one would like to think that the employees that work for us and are paid with our tax dollars follow the law of the land, which now says university research is cool in hemp states so and by the way, there is great further hemp legislation in congress that we should be supporting and getting involved in that. and if you want me to get more specific on that. does anybody know the name of the current within the state multiple people are developing seeds including people here tonight. so you can find them within the state rebuilding of the plasm for heme hemp. but the ditch weed in nebraska is still the and hemp's foot long tap roots -- it is an annual plant and has these tap roots and that is why it is so st stabl stablilizin stabilizing. you are creating an underground system with things that are important to soil health. that is why hemp is valuable for remeadiation and why conservative kentucky energy plants are planting hemp and using it in this gasification process we have been talking about. let darwin chose. use the nebraska ditch weed. just plant that. there is nothing wrong with that. it is good idea especially if your plan is building material where the fiber doesn't have been to uniform. but for the high end application, the hemp flax people in the netherlands, my micromanage this and they have been uniform and perfect if they were going to bmw or mercedes-benz. there is a hemp it at this. i know the hempsters are law-abiding citizens so i don't want to make it seem like they are outlaws or here heroes but let's change the federal law and university get on board and do the research so they were like where did the seed come from? and he said i am keeping that on the down low and friends sent them to me all over. we are building the seed stock today thank god. and we are not getting raided. the climate change issue you are seeing in eastern colorado is affecting all of you. we had terrible floods. noah had 40 days and 40 nights where he could not find land? well i had 40 days that would not let me cross the creak from my ranch to the civilization road. a neighborhood tried and it was ugly. hemp matters to me as a father. i came to hemp once i had kids because hemp not cotton held up to that. if you had kids and did clothe diapers and it is poop, line dry, poop, line, dry, break for lunch. and hemp, not cotton held up in the real world. dr. broner's soap was the non-toxic issues to bathe my youngsters in. and hemp seed oil, expensive and waiting for the day i can press it myself, but was my girlfriend's prenatal high grade source of omega. my goats, by the way, i brought a sample of the book telling them i would be feeding them hemp soon and they started by the biting in the book. and the hemp oil ride i told you about, believe me, the exhaust does give you the munchies. i enjoy the textile side and like wearing the hemp clothes and i am glad my girlfriend makes it for me. this is hemp corduroy and she did a good job with the snaps on this. and this is made by a commercial market but the vest and shirt she made. this is the message saying this is longevity. recently a study in turkey, looking good and ready for showtime and i was invited to testify for changing international drug laws and ending cannabis prohibition for money laundering and hurting families at the high session of the u.n. i think i was the first person to testify to be claded from head to toe in hemp. i told you about the hemp eggs and their nutrient profile. and hemp twine. where do i find hemp twine? made in india sold at walmart. i didn't tell you the end of the story about when i was researching sustainable cannabis counties and i saw the stalk from the plant isn't being used and it has an energy resource and that planted me the seeds for "hemp bound". the reason i believe industrial cannabis is going to be bigger than the other kind is because coors is big but exon pexonn is bigger. so a quick reality check. the post harvest process of retting -- how many people have heard of retting? it is a bit medieval. if you see sketches from the 10th century france hemp fields it looks like this. minus the factory there. i have the slide here because i was told if you tell people something three times they retain it. so in addition to the seed oil and the fiber want you to get the energy. so i am sneaking it into slides that has nothing else to do with it. so retting -- it isn't a no brainer to cultivate hemp for oil. you have to harvest at the right time and store it in a way that it retains the correct moisture level before getting to the processors and i think newbies could figure it out. there is a fungal battle going on after retting and it is two weeks of rotating with the right amount of moisture so this incredible outer bar opens up. i write about a fellow named clark who developed a decoordinator and it isn't a new concept. but it is expensive and allows you to strip the bark off from harvest. so it might be going from 10th century to 20th and i bring this up so any time i cannot sound like your roommate with the lava lamp i need to do it. i am a believer. i think the hemp industly is going to take off. canadian farmers are profiting $300 per acre and save the earth while they are at it. it is a patriotic issues that is causing people that don't normally talk about things like mitch mcconnell. and thank you mike bowman as well. that is where i met you. and this was the hoisting of the hemp flag above the colorado state house on colorado day last year. but also july 4th. the hemp flag went over the u.s. capital last year. it is one of those moments you cannot turn back like whether commies were the big enemy. you could not call your congressman and say i need a photo of boys ner hoisted over the capital. but hemp is the opposite of the ene enemy. it is one of the most patriotic industries you can support. i want to see the hemp sandwich in mcdonald's. this was usda researcher developing cultivars. i want to continue the discussion because the changes happening every day -- in boulder i was approached by a researcher at the national renewable energy labs, and jason spoke to him to, saying i think the farm bill is changing things and i think we may not have to ignore this anymore. we are going to do climate change and it is because your roommate with the lava lamp was right. thank you for coming. [applause] can i take can up couple questions? >> i am in illinois, any prospect of combgetting that in here? >> in the state of illinois? what i think is going to happen is -- illinois made great strides like medical cannabis. i mention this because minds are open on the officialism. president obama voted to legalize hemp as an illinois legislature twice, by the way. so missouri is in the forefront. ohio is pushing hard and texas just gave a talk at rice university and i should not ask surprise because the baker institute gets it and they get it in terms of drug policy because they are a border state and know what cannabis prohibition does via organized crime. and from the ambassador to the name-sake of the institute to all of the researchers there are totally on board. and texas is ready on hemp. so i think just as california is often kind of paving the way for things that happen across the nation and across the west i think texas is going to be the reverberation across the south there. i think illinois will follow missouri and ohio are going it be the first in the midwest. >> gary, indiana is stuck in a terrible cycle. we have had the land since 1875 but the bank runs it and we are paying a lot for the input. we all inherited it but we are not making good use of it. we have a fine farm house and weep don't want to live it. it is out in the country all by itself on the highest land location and eight miles from indiana. the whole history of the tipping canoe battle is in that vicinity. but the thing is it is all petro chemicals out there. farmers now just farm when we harvest the crops like mowing the yard. we are stuck in a syndrome of the high cross of what they call input. >> it sounds like ripe for fiber remediation. but i am glad that you mention this because besides the strictly physical soil remediation it is land use and putting farmers back in control with their land from farmers that can make a living. that is the ultimate goal. i would like to see it happen in illinois. anybody from illinois with influence contact your legislatures. >> bill gates just bought a whole section near the farm. but it is big farmers. they will sell off a section at a time and we are just a small farm. >> how many acres? >> about 2/3rds of the half session. >> that is enough to get the hemp going. >> but the thinking is stuck in the state of illinois. >> spending top energy for that. >> linda? >> i want to encourage anyone who wants to know more check out the rocky mountain hemp association's website. and there is a button where you can become a member. we welcome everyone. we want it to be the networking website for farmers and industry and anyone who is interested on any aspect of this unfolding of hemp in the united states or at least in colorado. rockymountainhempassociation.org . >> i am a member and i forgot to introdu introduce susan. this is a colorado senator who put force the earliest efforts. linda and jason can speak to this better. but a day to see farmers cultivated commercial hemp must feel good and thank you f. >> how much of the market is driven by the prohibition? ...
interested. and once he one of their work of eliot know, they're never want to talk about it. >> just wondering. how do you -- [inaudible question] >> remain employed and 21st century journalism. road trips to mexico any more. seventeen countries were ever you were doing. get a leave of absence from newsweek. >> i was a professor during this . i quit this week to become rich and famous magazine writer. working full-time. >> sent a day job. ahead of the book ideas she has endured this book. she's out there. >> before you leave a gun ask myself, what's next? this has a woman as the protagonist i can describe it all. st. martin's press. next summer. 2015. the working title is the princess and the da. just quickly to when it is about a woman who was kidnapped. she is an american woman from a colombian national kidnapped. but colombian guerrillas. and since the king that she was a rich woman who had a multi, multi, multi million dollar wanderings cream in boca raton florida. they kidnapped her, brought her up into the hills. in reality she was working undercover for the da. the story is how they got her back. they had a government agent in their grasp. >> oh, yeah. >> thank you all for coming. [applause] >> we have books for sale. we have -- if you don't mind folding its shares up and putting them against a wall that will be helpful. thank you again. [inaudible conversations] >> our special book tv program and continues. segments from book fairs and festivals. never trust a liberal over three, especially republican. at 830 it is a form on thomas paine's common sense and at 10:00 eastern falling in love with america again. in prime time during august. >> is there and nonfiction of her book you would like to see feature? send a said e-mail. tweet us. posts on all. >> you can see all of our coverage on line. as the event of wraps up there was time for a family photo. here is a little of what the look like. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> our special book tv program and continues over the next several hours with the focus on marijuana beginning with doug fine and his book and bound, dispatches from the front lines in the next general revolution. and a little more than an hour you will hear from angela harkin on a marijuana legalization, what everyone needs to know. after that the last pirate, a father, his son, and the golden age of marijuana. >> next dug fein talks about the reincorporation of him to the u.s. economy. he argues of with the relaxation of attitudes and a minivan uses the letter will soon become a booming billion dollar industry. he profiles people around the country who are perfecting new uses in anticipation of full federal legalization. this is about the hour. >> hello and thank you so much foroming. >> hello and thank you for coming. i first met dug last year on colorado day, august 1st, when we found each other in front of the capitol but the hoisting of the hint flag that what up above our capital. were aware of that but mike bowman made sure there was a hemp thank you for writing such an excellent book. outstanding. and i would like to go ahead and let mike takeover until you a little bit more about the story. thank you. halfback. >> thank you. i'm going to try to squeeze into a minute what would take care reasonable person in our. again, thanks to linda and the senator and many other people in this room who are part of this great movement that culminated in, run up in the first day to end prohibition once and for all. [applause] i heard a story on npr one morning. i was sitting in and out of shops in southern denver which interestingly enough was voted the best of my shop in denver. i don't know if there is any connection. he has been to the donut shop. so i sent him an e-mail. he wrote back. we discovered this in a would be in arizona. we had lunch, not long after that and just instantly had a fondness for each other. our journeys have been interesting.ince that time our s went to we have passed the hemp amendment. we placed that flag over the u.s. capitol on july 4th. capital on july 4th and moved the needle on where we are taking this. and colorado claims the grund on being the state that put all of this in motion -- ground -- there was the straw that breaks the camels back and colorado is going to lead the full ending of this prohibition nationally in a very foreseeable future. so it is a great honor and pleasure to introduce my dear friend, doug, who made a dent and mark in my life and spends time on a new mexico ranch milking goats when he is not out on the road helping educate the public about the opportunities before us. he has played an important role in changing the narrative on what we are doing here. with that i would like doug to come to the podium and please welcome my good friend and author, doug fine. [applause]. >> thank you mike and linda. to be mentioned, let alone praised, for people that have done as much for colorado and also humanity means a lot to me. thank you to tattered cover book store and this is the third visit here and you have been tremendous supporters. thank you for having me back. for me to be speaking about hemp when more than a half dozen of the people, the heroes making this happen, are here in the audience tonight, is like giving a talk about boxing with ali in the audience saying i have to get my facts right but also honor these people. the book wouldn't have been written and we would not be seeing the rebirth of this and phot putting farmers back to work. we have hemp seeds she hopes will go into the her coffee soon. she asked for a blessing. this is non-denomnation here. blessings to colorado, hemp, and humanity. and thank you come coming here tonight. julie brought an airloom of a 1771 book printed on hemp paper. thank you for allowing us to be up here. and thank you for the hemp plants and i can feel the carbon dioxide being sucked from the atmosphere. the hardest part of talking about hemp is not sounding like you are roommate with the lava lamp because after two years of research i stand here tell you the roommate with the lava lamp was right about the hemp plant. the time is happening now. how do we get the message across? this year is hemp's biggest year in the possible 10,000 or certainly 77. skipping colorado's achievements for a minute -- the farm bill allows for university research of hemp. it is great first step for people who have been activist for a long time it could be frustrating that only university approved research for the varieties of hemp are approved on the federal level and let's hope the federal agencies -- any dea agencies? welcome if you are here. thank you for coming, guys and ladies. the canadians put their drug squad to work inspecting their crops so we don't have to an across the job firing of the dea agents but come on board and stop saying those silly things about not being able to tell the difference between hemp and cannabis. it isn't true. the farm bill -- our congress did something and legalized hemp for the first time in 77 years. it matters. research is okay for a couple times. canadians did it and their industry is approaching a billion and growing 24% per year. mike who is one of the two hemp heroes that give the introduction tonight this is him last july 4th in conservative buyers, colorado -- replacing gmo corn with hemp. it has been a magical year. linda, jason, lowl, and shout out to eric hunter as well -- people that were involved in the legislative side of making this happen in colorado. colorado is ahead of federal law. we were there in bolder on the first day agriculture was accepting permits for commercial hemp. colorado is saying let's do it! let's go. let's generate the revenue from $300 per acre that canadian farmers are making on their hemp and that is ten times what they make on gmo corn. and for a show of hands, how many people know about this guy? there is going to be a statue of ryan loftland some day. he said i am going to print 50 acres of industrial acres in springfield on family land that is getting federal subsidies for the old way of doing things. big farm business no, we are going back to hemp. he found hemp takes half the water that the wheat he was growing in that land takes and some of his neighbors for whom the reservoir is drying up might be able to heal the soil and get back to the land. remember ryan. he is a hero. so i had no idea when i started researching hemp that instead of being laughed out of committee whenever the iconic clash in the house would bring the hemp bill forward and this was two years ago and i get this saying we will do hemp and he got excited and it is like the committees are like, yeah, no. then all of a sudden it happens right when i am back from two years of world wide research on hemp and have a book about hemp coming out. much more importantly than that, they made the wish in the books second paragraph come true. my plan the day hemp becomes legal is to begin cultivating ten acres of my land so my sweetheart doesn't have to import the material she does to make the shirts i wear. i would like to be buying colorado grown hemp for my girlfriend to make for hemp clothes. it is coming one step closer to reality. if we leave everybody here with one thought, what i am trying to implant in the colorado university and then the u.s. industly, you know north dakota, kentucky, california farmers are chomping at the bit and they read the agriculture journals and know the prices. it is a profitable crop. in farming there is a term dual cropping and it means you use one crop for more than one purpose. so what i would like to see it hemp is tricropping and that is main thing that i set out in hemp found. i got to ride in a limo that was powered by hemp. it was very comfortable. bill altus, thanks for that. but the three, so i want to see tri-cropping with hemps. in every colorado processor i deally community-owned processor, farmers will bring their feed in, which is where the money is today we will talk about, it isn't a comp llicated thing pressing the oil. the gook coming down is an omega super food. i went to a university where they fed the laying hens hemp versus corn feed and the resulting eggs were market hot. the nutritional analysis was way higher content of good things in the hemp fed chickens. seed oil, boom. it comes out and you market it regionally. the seed cake in the press makes fantastic animal feed. i know people that feed their pigs on nothing but that and compost all winter. before tonight's event, mike bowman and i talked about pigs that are hemp-fed in washington states and they are growing fatter and there are growing bigger and better and healthier in a study going on there which jibes with a woman i met in an earlier event from nebraska who said she remembers her daddy planting hemp along the irrigation ditches of their ranch when she was growing up as erosion control. so not just the this terrible dustbowl we are dealing with in the heartland but maui, sub-saharan africa. soil restoration and then she said in the fall when planting irrigation was done they sent the cattle out and she said they loved it. the cattle of the hemp which jibes with all the studies i was seeing. so there's your seed oil. i visited the biggest hemp mobile for "hemp bound" in canada shaun crew of hemp oil canada under oil canada undergoing their fourth expansion in 10 years. he has been in it since day one in canada since 1998. it wasn't that big a factory. it doesn't take that much to process a lot of oil so that's one section. there is your oil. the second section obviously we have this fiber that's stronger than steel fiber. today i'm fibers are in in mercedes-benz and bmw's and we will get into that a little bit as well. there's an easy fiber application which is construction. they get another university study mix it with lime and it makes light insulation that outperforms tank petroleum-based chemical-based installation. we are going to revamp the shelves of home depot and lowes as well. if there's one thing i'm going to leave you with night if that third element in that his energy. i grant you this isn't a hypothetical stage at this point here but in europe today entire communities in germany and austria are becoming energy independent through biomass waste in a process called gasification. it's a relatively earth friendly anaerobic combustion process. the units are small. they are not that expensive. that can be in the corner beer factory or hey med to be a community co-op weaning us from grids rather than one giant monster grid. it's happening already. austria at gasification home video of an austrian farmer talking about it. or look up the story of help -- fell behind germany independent fossil fuel free reduced 30%% unemployment to none by becoming in control of their own energy. i would love to see american communities do that and i would support it and advertise it. fiber seed oil and energy i'm going to map this out. first of all the energy application. how many people appear here have read jared diamond's book collapse? kind of a scary tom where in great civilizations it documents what went wrong and it sounds eerily familiar. this is the culture of modern-day cambodia but for our purposes as neighbors in southern new mexico coloradans and the culture and the four corners. these people talk about globalization they are trading with seattle to costa rica. it looked really good. cities and trade routes. see if that does sound familiar to you guys. followed by job right-wing leaders. seriously the monuments get bigger and more dramatic near the end. it's like really keep believing. sorry but there's no water. we need to tackle this and make a different decision. as a father i'm suddenly more confident about this. i feel as though the carbon mitigation blueprint is now in place. that's my plea to make sure you include energy in it. it's what we call the upside of prohibition, right? >> can take with the canadians are doing to make a profit and they even have varieties all ready for us. a side story, america's kentucky hemp seed was the sort of beacon of the world. in kentucky alone the country's first millionaire in lexington was a hemp mogul. hemp was a big business in wisconsin ohio. not so much in colorado but it will be now. david west had the federal commission do a study in the late 90s. he wanted to see what there was to plant. he visited the depository and it was an indiana jones scene of a warehouse. he pried open a box and a couple of open baggies of rotted seed. this industry is so valuable important we have to start from scratch when it comes to research. people in this room veronica among them are starting that research now. but we can take the seed industry from canada, the fiber knowledge of china and europe. this is european dutch factory that makes the fiber that goes in to bmws or mercedes and this third energy component and make them all first generation. this was really fun. mercedes does not put hemp fiber and open store panels because they are wearing tight eyes. it is because it's an easily accessible reliable inexpensive source of strong light material. that's the age we live in now. so it was really silky stuff. this is the actual fiber and the company complex that provides this hemp they have been at it for 20 years. the world leaders in fiber and even they have to jury rig their harvesters. i say this backing up from sounding like your roommate with a law of the land because in truth there's a learning curve but you coloradans out there, fifth-generation colorado ranching family they know how to do it. they know how to do big ad and interact with the land around here. it's not rocket science especially when it comes to seeds and that is what you should certainly start with is seed. the big one in canada is called kino from finland. the canadians do the research from farmers. you need to make sure federal agencies honor our new federal law and allow colorado farmers to import seeds. [applause] and another issue is university research has been approved by the feds. coloradans are trying to bring the tax base back about farmers to work. colorado state city, boulder you should be on the ball but these farmers in signing onto conducting research that we can get this industry back up and canadians can't wait until you guys are planting the seeds. they want to buy oil and i love you canada you are fantastic and they have a prophylactic ban on the registry for which we should do as well. i would love to see boulder county have regional processors of oil that i could buy at the farmers market. china's president visits their hemp fiber factories instead of using taxpayer money to eradicate it so why would that be? why would china's president do that? the reason is cotton provides 30% of the worlds pesticides so they are poisoning their soil and losing productivity. they know what's going on and they know there's a market for hemp. this is interesting to me because my girlfriend is interested in it. i have become a patent application for hemp. in the textile world the softness of her shirt that you'd be able to buy at a store or at the mall some bangladeshi teenage girl probably put it together. so they called that -- hand. it reminds me of the "seinfeld" episode. china is going into hemp fiber because they have to. the seed oil industry, let's hope one day that will be the bp oil industry. as i say it's not rocket science rendering seed oil. at the end of the book i have a list of some and there are more coming on line and their great ones here tonight. definitely we can chitchat a network afterwards shortly after q&a. the seed oil is just magical omega super food. it's totally amazing. canadian farmers are planting it. we can't e enough of it. we buy 90% of the canadian crop and its worth more than a billion dollars to canadian farmers last year. i'm a smalltime rancher so when i was interviewing shaun i said what about people like me? i have 40 acres and when it's legal in mexico i will plant 20 or 30 seed oil. wait, talk to the hand. if you are under 1000 acres you are a hobby farmer. spoken like the manitoba raised guide. that's how they do about there. that's how you do it in nebraska and north dakota -- north dakota and probably eastern colorado. that's fantastic and fine. i'm doing the math here. this is not anything other than what people are declaring in their tax returns in canada. canadian farmers are profiting $300 per acre of hemp so it's a minimum 1000 acres at 300-dollar profit per acre, okay feel free to change this world by buying hemp -- "hemp bound" by the million but that's more than cumulatively made book sales. farmers are making that on one year's crop. i don't think you could do with a thousand acres. a great ohio hamster was doing everything to get hemp oil to people told me don't let people say it's got to be a mega-crop billion-dollar industry. you have a network of farms in the community growing 10, 15, 20 acres of farm. you could have a serious communal industry. a profitable one too where they'll work together who are all joined investors in it. i'm in the middle on this. i'm absolutely fine with finding people having an option for hemp sandwich at mcdonald's. i'm going to personally choose a local and regional source in a checkerboard fashion. my goats can't wait. they told me that during our morning meditation. a lot of people believe that. it's really true, i really do start every day meditating with goats. it was one of the reasons i was thinking i forgot to mention samantha walsh and jason especially that do the legwork in the colorado legislature and got this hemp industry going here. it's going to show the world what this plan has to offer humanity. you are dealing with human beings beaming all kinds of energy and all that kind of stuff and i'm sitting there with goats in the middle of nowhere listening to cactus calls so thank you people in the trenches. on the fiber side, things that i like like textile-somethings i want to see like hemp paper so future books or tree free. bless you my publisher printing on 100% recycled paper and they are going for it. they actually tried to make hemp happen on the first edition of "hemp bound" and it simply isn't there anymore. this cannot happen at least on a mass-market paperback. you can do it in especially edition so one of the things they are doing is talking about sponsoring another of ronica's web sites, sponsoring a colorado farmer. it's going to be a contest to grow the fiber. that may seem a little bit wild but at the composites innovation center of winnipeg canada, a government private industry joint partnership. isn't that fantastic? a double industry supporting the hemp industry. this is a car and they also have a tracker built entirely out of hemp and a top-performing tetra plastic in every way. you can kick the thing. it's strong. it's light and these guys are not hamsters politically. they are scientist trying to figure out what applications actually work. i want to save my on line for small franchise fee. can you see the john deere pla plant? that's the plan in manitoba. it's not a pipe dream. a lot of people tell me the first fiber killer app, you get it, for the seed oil? that's where the money is. your fiber app if you don't have the skills to do this sophisticated stuff the nanotechnology and the body armor and all the things that hemp is good for and by the way show of hands how many people know that george bush parachutes twined that saved his life when he bailed out during world war ii was made of hemp? it's true. so construction. it's an easy kind if app. the tests that are going on in universities in canada especially are showing as i mentioned earlier in mixture of chopped up hemp fiber with lime. not only do they create long-lasting durable homes but they are outperforming pink insulation and also loadbearing applications as well as insulation. i called up of people building these hemp homes all over england. a profitable company and they have the subsidiary selling in the u.s.. i think it's a good material opportunity for farmers here to chop up the fiber and sell it to the construction industry. anyway what hemp creators done right is create this easy to pack non-toxic concrete heated up thousands of degrees. i asked ian prichard in the book is it a no-brainer? you are building a hemp houses now, entire subdivisions. is it a no-brainer? he said it's a no-brainer for anybody that is maintaining the structure of the development. if you are just looking to do, if you are just trying to do you know flipping stuff with whatever is the cheapest god knows what toxicity and particle board and drywall and all that, today in europe it's a tossup straight up on the initial cost of the energy efficiency and durability and lower maintenance of hemp structure is five years ahead so it is a no-brainer. for hemp construction but i went on site in canada to provincially funded house. they provide low-income housing for folks and they're finding it's mildew and moisture resistant. it's extremely termite resistant. hemp works. 20 years of experience sounding like your roommate with a law of the land again. i asked the guys, the real guys, i asked the guy in the construction hat collecting a paycheck what it was like to build with hemp insulation. they said once we got the mixture figured out it was the best. it was quick and it's beautiful. you can paint right over it or plaster over it. the energy efficiency is already clear. we can tell us the walls go up but it took us a couple of days of experimenting with this mixture of hemp with lime, mix with lime to find the consistency that we want. it took a couple of days to set. it was easy to work with. it's light and fluffy and not sticky or icky. it took them a couple of days of experimenting to find their ideal mixture. that's the most cynical thing i can tell you about the hemp fiber application. more than one hamster told me they believe construction will be the first fiber killer app. personally it's embarrassing we have 30% of americans farmers when prohibition started in 1937 and now we have 1% of americans as farmers. we can speculate all they want about the causes of it but the bottom line is as much as we want to idealize farming farmers are trying to make a living like everybody else. what they are doing is great for the earth which hemp is, that's fantastic and a great bonus but it's about being able to harvest a crop for which there is a market. i believe whether it's 1000 acres ryan loughlin rebuilding america's seed stock with a bunch of other great people. he has $600,000 invested his family does in their equipment. this is real agribusiness. on america's air seeders and he showed me technology i could not believe. my ranch farming is done with a hoe. it's going to be massive. i would love to see it. over the course of the month i have been asked as monsanto going to take it over and my sense is wall street does what wall street is going to do but if we keep the jam of hemp ban in placing get it in place in the u.s., just wanted to see if i was going to explode for saying that. right now i'm booktv it's -- no, i'm kidding. hooray for c-span. i don't mind if you are driving through minnesota and wisconsin instead of seeing endless fields of earth killing gmo corn and endless fields of -- totally into that. this is a traffic situation. a canadian farmer, wonderful people, super religious heartland canadians farmers colleen and their brood of terrific kids. they are growing several hundred acres. choline had this dream of making a healthy energy bar. she thought energy bars were not up to snuff. she's a triathletes soshi but this mixture together from an early hemp harvest that her husband told and won a contest called the manifold -- manitoba food fight. she now has this incredible hemp energy bar company from the hemp that the family grows on their farm in manitoba. this is something i think of as a hemp ram, skipping ahead here. bending the ear of interior secretary salazar. the hemp brand, i think it's encapsulated well by the doctor bronner soap company. this is the third-generation company. 54 million-dollar company growing fast. the seau collects five times the salary of his lowest paid employee. the olive oil that goes into their hemp soap is tilled from orchards cultivated germany by israelis and palestinians and last year ceo of a multi-million dollar corporation locked himself in a cage in front of the white house with a hemp plant, with this. one of these right here, a hemp plant. this is the moment where it's like i want to apologize to my mother. [laughter] what are you going to say that the bridge club meeting you know when you are dealing and the lady goes i saw your son holding the cannabis plant on booktv. no, but really. my kids had a great time and a hemp field and mike told me his kids are having a blast in his fields this year. david bonner gets arrested of course for doing this in front of the white house but it happened. six months later it happened. dear mr. president let -- and it's really happening now. as far as the hemp brand goes that righteousness is marketable on an arm and hammer baking soda or any baking soda. you don't have the orange box. it tells you bike value clean natural way to air fresh in your or clinger counter. hemp has the brand too. frank in hemp is off brand and the fact that this is a movement. there has been a movement for 77 years to get this plant back into the economy. it matters and we should stick to that. for those who come to us to the plant i should mention prohibition was an accident, basically a typo also completely misguided cannabis marijuana tax act instituted in 1937. the most interesting thing about hemp prohibition is that within a few years it was already shipping american business offshore because world war ii broke out and our source for the 40 tons of hemp in the navy vehicle needed was the philippines. suddenly farmers can grow hemp anymore. the japanese capture the philippines all of a sudden, check this out, the u.s. department of agriculture put up this propaganda film. it sounds like it was made with a law of the land. i swear it says in a more passionate tone all the truth about hemp baking farmers to grow for the war effort. the fact that he then took another 70 years to be cultivating is fairly insane but at least it happened. my previous book researching these sustainable medicinal cannabis industry people trying to do it right in california i found it in progressive mendocino county in the redwoods. if so progressive hemp clothing would be optional in the supermarket. the first county not to dan gmo legally but to ban edge of medically modified organism and i asked the sheriff do you enforce it and he said he felt there had been a raid carried out on gmo corn in the county. which i thought was kind of funny. [applause] i'm still alive? and my lack to speak out against gmo? i love democracy and this cannabis industry is making, i don't want to carry the metaphor too far but it's healing of the nation. this is not an occupier. this is pro-hemp republican senator from kentucky mitch mcconnell leading the charge in the senate. there is of course back funny stories about what brought the senator to hemp. one event reported by ryan grim suggest that senator mcconnell's colleague in kentucky promised not to run the tea party candidate against him in a primary if he would get behind hemp. so whatever it takes. the reason why i include my -- weak coloradans and new mexicans are western ranchers. i always thought the no trespassing sign was a little bit unfriendly. i have to say for those of you who can't see it, this is the entrance to my black diamond driveway. preannouncing your rifle helps avoid accidental gunfire and/or unexpected nudity. beware of goes. i have a real sympathy for rur rural -- i'm one of the so i'm here to help as colorado gets going introducing people with processors. after they not grow hemp expo last week, a terrific event that a bunch of people here were at i was approached by an engineering guy who said i want to start one of those gasification -- i want to provide the gasification process for farmers in colorado. these are people that we can network with one another. by the way no one has ever honored that sign. no one has ever called up and said doug i saw your sign. what happens is i'm not dedicated but when you live on 41 acres in the middle of nowhere and a goatherd or when i'm not traced -- traipsing around the world researching stuff, you think you could go out and get your boxers off a laundry line without anyone noticing but invariably this is when the ups lady is coming down my driveway is i'm out there and she has binoculars on. [laughter] in colorado last year where mike did his planting on july 4, these were conservative people. we didn't hear a negative word about hemp last year. colorado farmers are ready to go in the reason is because of the dust bowl we are experiencing. this is not a photo of the 1932 out of "the grapes of wrath." this is 2012 lamar colorado. chilean hixon did and i think in the difference between hemp and psychoactive cannabis. now she is strongly considering planting hemp. that is supposed to be her wheat field. it looks like the sahara desert. this is no joke people. ask a conservative rancher whether climate change is real. serious. this is my, anytime we get off of petroleum and replace petroleum such as petro plastics are hemp plastics 3-d printers doubling compost at which is 15 to 20% of carbon emissions. these nightmare high energy petro chemical-based building materials we use. anytime you get off of petroleum you to something good for the world. we know about exxon valdez. epic battles going on over oil and terrible things happening. i'm not somebody that in good conscience can criticize the petroleum industry because i believe the petroleum industry helped make america great. i wouldn't be able to type out my -- without petroleum. petroleum did so much good for america we would not have been able to win world war ii without texas crude. if we are on the mall somewhere in d.c. have some sort of gusher next to the lincoln monument i'm cool with that. thank you petroleum for all you have done. that was last century and let's move onto the next thing so we can start healing these situations. a big issue for american farmers now i'm coloradans know this is how do you get your seats? one would like to thank that the employees that work for us and are paid with our tax dollars follow the law of the land which now says university research is you know cool in hemp state and by the way there were other further legislation in congress now that we should all be supporting. let's all get involved in that and if you want me to get more specific on that, does anybody know the name of the current hemp bill in congress? 525 in the house and 395 in the senate to get it to going commercial cultivation. it's a secret law but also there is but also the rest of the country and wisconsin and the rest of the country as well. hopefully these folks that are paid with taxpayer dollars up at the farm bill which means it's cool cool to plant which means there will be no more roadblocks for planting the seed from other countries. there are other ways and in the state there are people developing it, multiple people that are developing seed and people that are here tonight. you can find them within the state rebuilding of the germ for hemp. despite tax thunder rectification -- eradication, it's still there. hemp's foot long tap roots, it's an annual plant that grows quickly. that is why it is such a good soil -- you are creating this ecosystem for everything from microflora to the earthworm and other things that are important to soil health. that is one of the reasons why hemp is valuable and white conservative republican kentucky energy companies are now planning to plant hemp to remediate call and tobacco damaged cole and use it in this gasification products. there is nothing wrong with that. in my view it's a good idea especially if your plan is something like building material for the fiber doesn't have to be uniform. but those hemp flax people in the netherlands micromanaged their fiber. a fiber that goes into bmws and all these components they have to be uniform and perfect. also if you are playing with the big boys and girls and he wanted the end target and want you're hemp cereal and by the way there is a hemp cereal. it's a canadian product that canadian astronauts have brought up to the space agency. if you want to do something that is big marketing they can't just be whatever string is lying around. even though that's how the pioneers did it originally. out in the wilds of illinois planting hemp but what the canadians tell you, you have to have a call to bar that is registered in uniform and the same one that your neighbors using, otherwise you are not a pro. i see both sides of this. really besides consulting with people one thing you can do, i was in belgium here. spin a globe and look for a place that has elevation, water and most important remediation. in early 2000 hemp study in hawaii it surprised everyone including the researcher david west. china had fairly dissimilar climate but similar vital period works best in their study they did in hawaii. look for those different characteristics and i'm not going to be on national tv advocating to break the federal law. how but i quote, i know these hamsters are law-abiding citizens so i don't want to make anybody nervous to make them seem like they are outlaws. let's change the federal law so we get all this cdp and universities please get on board and do the research so we can get the hemp seed back. that said when i got to the question if you're hemp field looks great, where did the seed come from? he was like e i have kept that on the down-low. friend sent me stuff from all threw in some of the doctor and some of it got c's. in colorado you have these terrible floods. we have been to. no one had 40 days and 40 nights. i had 43 days that i could not cross the creek that gets me from my code plans to civilization. one of my neighbors tried. it was an situation. climate change matters as the father. hemp matters to me. i was not a college hamster guy. i became a hamster once i had kids. if you had kids and use cloth diapers is washed lying dry, washed lying dry and break for lunch. hemp not cotton held up in the real world. dr. bonner soap one of being a non-toxic alternative to bathe my answers in hemp seed oil expensive granted waiting for the day when i can present myself but hemp seed oil with my girlfriends prenatal great source of omega's. my goats by the way. i brought the sample out of my goats to tell them i'd be feeding them temps them. they started biting into the book. they can't wait to be fed with hemp seed oil. if my solar-powered vegetable oil kind of lifestyle. believe me that hemp oil that i told you about the exhaust does give you the munchies, i will tell you. i mentioned a little bit earlier that for me i enjoy the textile side of it. i like wearing hemp clothes and i like the microfor and make some for me. it feels like home going about my day. this is hemp corduroy. she really did a good job with the snaps on this one and this is commercial pans bush did the fast and the shirt. it's not a cutesy thing. it's another win in the marketplace. first levi's. the emperor of japan coronation in a hemp rope. this is the message to the empire. this is longevity and this is nature and this is what you guys where. hemp clothing found in very good condition. recently stamper did a study, still looking good and ready for showtime. i was invited to testify for changing international drug laws basically cannabis prohibition for the safety of worldwide families against money launderers at the highest session of the un's commission on narcotic drugs in vienna a couple of weeks ago. i'm not sure about this but i think i was the first person to testify before the u.n. at least in recent history clad from head to toe entirely in hemp. i told you about the hemp eggs and their nutritive profile. i'm a little embarrassed, and they have marketplace where do i find my hemp twine? grown in romania at walmart so thank you for carrying it. i didn't tell you the tail end of the story about mendocino county and when i was researching sustainable cannabis industry a couple of years ago i saw the cellulose to stall from the plant is not being used and has this real energy source. that planted the seed so to speak for me to write "hemp bound" because the hemp energy app is going to be where it's at. predictions are free. the reason i believe industrial cannabis is course is thick but exxonmobil is bigger. if you guys here in colorado and farmers nationwide search to think about these s. yes vacation technologies i think we will be able to change not just their food structure but our industrial grade as well. a quick reality check. the post process of granting, and curious about this. how many have heard about the process? it's a bit medieval. if you see sketchiness from tenth century france in the hemp fields it looks like this. minus the gasification factory. the reason i have that slide is i was told rhetorically that if you tell people something three times they retain it and i so badly wanted to make sure in addition to the seed oil and the fiber you are getting energy. the slide is nothing else to do with it. [laughter] as i said it's not exactly a no-brainer to cultivate hemp for oil but it's pretty easy. you have to harvest it at the right time and this is farmers telling me this. you have to store it in a way that it retains the correct moisture level before it gets to the processor and professional farmers can do this and i think even newbies can figure it out. if you want to do stuff with the fiber versus bungled battle going on called reading, two weeks of rotating at just the right amount of moisture so this incredibly strong bark softens up anything it to the valuable fibers in between. i write about adrian clarke, it's not a new concept. they were in hemp fields in 1917 that it's expensive and it allows you to strip the bark off right at harvest. we might be going from tenth century to 21st century soon but any time i cannot sound like your remake with a law of the land. i'm a believer. it's not rocket science. my analysis is canadian farmers are profiting $300 an acre and you can too. it's a patriotic issue. we have seen pictures of left-wing and white ring people. it's causing people who don't usually talk to each other talk to each other and to really agree that this is good for america and thank you again. not only this august 1 hemp legislative history. this was the hoisting of the hemp flag above the colorado statehouse on colorado day last year but also july 4 at the u.s. capitol last year. it's one of those moments you can't turn back. when let's say commies were the big enemy you couldn't do that. you could call commies and say i need a photo of brashness hoisted over the capital. i'm a constituent. frank was a bill to get jared polis to do that because hemp is the opposite of the enemy. hemp is one of the most patriotic industries we can support. i want to see them make hemp at mcdonald's. it provides -- this was the usda hemp researcher on land that is today the pentagon developing varieties of hemp for u.s. farmers in the 20 century and that is what should be happening again. i want to continue this discussion because the changes happening every day that an advantage in boulder i was approached by researcher as well saying i think the farm bill we might not have to ignore this plant anymore. we are going to do this. it's going to be because your remake with the love a lamp was right. thank you for coming. [applause] i don't know how we are doing for time but can i take a couple of questions? >> the upper midwest mainly illinois there any prospect to get into this? i live about 75 miles south of chicago. >> in this the state of illinois? what i think is going to happen is illinois has made great strides in medical cannabis. i mention this because minds are open and by the way person obama voted to legalize hemp as an alibi legislator twice.
life. it seemed as though he cannot possibly. and a certain inevitability that takes over when i lay his story out. here is like it could be no other way. to understand is to forgive. >> watching the wire and lately. i mean, i have been watching it is supposedly an accurate portrayal breed i don't know if you have seen it. but an accurate portrayal baby brought in and distributed pitbull and dave simon was a former reporter please do you find -- these two stories don't really jive with that whole wire police catching people on wiretaps and all these sorts of drug buys and police informants in that sort of thing. and just curious your thoughts on that. >> well, two points. i mean, they are dealing crack and heroin. so categorically different kind of animal involved in that business. i don't know much about how it works really. it is a different individual that gets involved. also on the street corner level i have no idea what happens there. george was. it -- >> george never tell what -- this had nothing to do with those of all ever. they were very high up in the wholesale business. he did know where -- other than some of the guys you would hire to protective he never noon. he was at ten very. he was care in this class of black kids to teach. they were not trying to except any of his teaching to get a ged people decide that he would teach them how to smuggle if they would get their gigi. it was air conditioned and there. jurors is not want to return of the school. but on this level that has nothing to do with the wire. >> i don't think my father was the guy in that tall grass. he would be there to receive it. if the load was eight times he would call eight guys. a ton of peace. where it went from there he had no idea. the money, no one pays up front. so the money washes back. when it washed back in small bills my father would get excited. he had some conception of the end user but the he was doing marijuana. that end user is writing music ended late submitted. >> your. >> so in 86 the gang decided to do one last job predicted a huge job. everyone got rich debate and they all were supposed to go off at live private lives. my father and his supplier, the most prolific smuggler of the reagan era to he did one more jobs with them all bring he used to be involved and, boston guys to and then he disappeared. well, that ring in boston, they had a low shot. eventually the irs notice that all the loans were going to friends and family. they get busted. they get indicted for marijuana sober. so that al qaeda was like a boy who is a supplier. we want to find an. in portugal. and who living it up and a big coastal community. he had a for a. he was driving fast all around the place. the could not find him for a long time. in the court records are all these references. what did they say? will lau less they one of. they don't know areas. but eventually the local authorities are like a boy who is this correct go with a ferrari. this guy is an idiot. identify him successfully plead he gets busted at the dentist's. the put him in a portuguese jail. his girlfriend is pregnant. he does not like jailed. the plus to the prosecutor flies over and says talk and we will be you out of your. okay. all talk. he comes to the states and caused my stepfather who is the level of other and actively father and me. he says -- he calls our house and asks my stepfather to be for a drink. so he's out and ordered to turn someone else. most of the other coast of the bark. i busted. of cooperating. you should too. here's the phone number. they're is a film. above cannot do this. and then making the stuff out, he says i wasn't going to do it but they said there are going to break down the door and take you put you in foster care bust your mother. i got it right the guys are going to be safe at that agree to talk. >> a step that was a popular? >> yes. >> i did not know that. [laughter] craigslist the father was the island guy. there were able to get it but had no market. they get together. there were like a way to we need each other. >> city know anything about it said ted? >> no. i didn't know there were partners. you told me? i don't remember who told me. some government source told ed and i confronted loss of father about it and the $8 to is that he told me the euros story. he said go to the bar. his is a west virginia. coach of the party get the papers of and you'll see indeed i got immunity for you. i saved you guys. he drinks like george allen. it's not right and half of the house. d'agata paper. a comeback the fancy letterhead a lead in league with drug enforcement task force to the big leap signature from the unsecured call the last of father was protected. who. >> have a private school. >> unfortunately i was there long enough to landry. >> the same sources. the process. >> i mean, i had their names. they have to give testimony special agent david farley comes to the stand and lace up the whole architecture. he was quoting dillon constantly tearing his life. he was blessed in fort lauderdale by these people he interested. and once he one of their work of eliot know, they're never want to talk about it. >> just wondering. how do you -- [inaudible question] >> remain employed and 21st century journalism. road trips to mexico any more. seventeen countries were ever you were doing. get a leave of absence from newsweek. >> i was a professor during this . i quit this week to become rich and famous magazine writer. working full-time. >> sent a day job. ahead of the book ideas she has endured this book. she's out there. >> before you leave a gun ask myself, what's next? this has a woman as the protagonist i can describe it all. st. martin's press. next summer. 2015. the working title is the princess and the da. just quickly to when it is about a woman who was kidnapped. she is an american woman from a colombian national kidnapped. but colombian guerrillas. and since the king that she was a rich woman who had a multi, multi, multi million dollar wanderings cream in boca raton florida. they kidnapped her, brought her up into the hills. in reality she was working undercover for the da. the story is how they got her back. they had a government agent in their grasp. >> oh, yeah. >> thank you all for coming. [applause] >> we have books for sale. we have -- if you don't mind folding its shares up and putting them against a wall that will be helpful. thank pirate". we want to hear from you. tweet us your feedback at twitter.com/booktv. >> doug fine is up next talking about the hemp and argues with the relaxation of marijuana, hemp will become a billion dollar industry soon. this is about an hour. >> hello and thank you so much for coming. i first met doug last year on colorado day, which is august 1st, when we found each other in front of the capital with the hoisting of the hemp flag that went up above our capital. i don't know if you were aware of that but mike bowman made sure there was a hemp >> i was going to be in arizona and so was he and we had lunch and grew fond of each other. and since that time our journeys went to varied places like maui, hoisted the flag over the capital on july 4th and moved the needle on where we are taking this. and colorado claims the grund on being the state that put all of this in motion -- ground -- there was the straw that breaks the camels back and colorado is going to lead the full ending of this prohibition nationally in a very foreseeable future. so it is a great honor and pleasure to introduce my dear friend, doug, who made a dent and mark in my life and spends time on a new mexico ranch milking goats when he is not out on the road helping educate the public about the opportunities before us. he has played an important role in changing the narrative on what we are doing here. with that i would like doug to come to the podium and please welcome my good friend and author, doug fine. [applause]. >> thank you mike and linda. to be mentioned, let alone praised, for people that have done as much for colorado and also humanity means a lot to me. thank you to tattered cover book store and this is the third visit here and you have been tremendous supporters. thank you for having me back. for me to be speaking about hemp when more than a half dozen of the people, the heroes making this happen, are here in the audience tonight, is like giving a talk about boxing with ali in the audience saying i have to get my facts right but also honor these people. the book wouldn't have been written and we would not be seeing the rebirth of this and phot putting farmers back to work. we have hemp seeds she hopes will go into the her coffee soon. she asked for a blessing. this is non-denomnation here. blessings to colorado, hemp, and humanity. and thank you come coming here tonight. julie brought an airloom of a 1771 book printed on hemp paper. thank you for allowing us to be up here. and thank you for the hemp plants and i can feel the carbon dioxide being sucked from the atmosphere. the hardest part of talking about hemp is not sounding like you are roommate with the lava lamp because after two years of research i stand here tell you the roommate with the lava lamp was right about the hemp plant. the time is happening now. how do we get the message across? this year is hemp's biggest year in the possible 10,000 or certainly 77. skipping colorado's achievements for a minute -- the farm bill allows for university research of hemp. it is great first step for people who have been activist for a long time it could be frustrating that only university approved research for the varieties of hemp are approved on the federal level and let's hope the federal agencies -- any dea agencies? welcome if you are here. thank you for coming, guys and ladies. the canadians put their drug squad to work inspecting their crops so we don't have to an across the job firing of the dea agents but come on board and stop saying those silly things about not being able to tell the difference between hemp and cannabis. it isn't true. the farm bill -- our congress did something and legalized hemp for the first time in 77 years. it matters. research is okay for a couple times. canadians did it and their industry is approaching a billion and growing 24% per year. mike who is one of the two hemp heroes that give the introduction tonight this is him last july 4th in conservative buyers, colorado -- replacing gmo corn with hemp. it has been a magical year. linda, jason, lowl, and shout out to eric hunter as well -- people that were involved in the legislative side of making this happen in colorado. colorado is ahead of federal law. we were there in bolder on the first day agriculture was accepting permits for commercial hemp. colorado is saying let's do it! let's go. let's generate the revenue from $300 per acre that canadian farmers are making on their hemp and that is ten times what they make on gmo corn. and for a show of hands, how many people know about this guy? there is going to be a statue of ryan loftland some day. he said i am going to print 50 acres of industrial acres in springfield on family land that is getting federal subsidies for the old way of doing things. big farm business no, we are going back to hemp. he found hemp takes half the water that the wheat he was growing in that land takes and some of his neighbors for whom the reservoir is drying up might be able to heal the soil and get back to the land. remember ryan. he is a hero. so i had no idea when i started researching hemp that instead of being laughed out of committee whenever the iconic clash in the house would bring the hemp bill forward and this was two years ago and i get this saying we will do hemp and he got excited and it is like the committees are like, yeah, no. then all of a sudden it happens right when i am back from two years of world wide research on hemp and have a book about hemp coming out. much more importantly than that, they made the wish in the books second paragraph come true. my plan the day hemp becomes legal is to begin cultivating ten acres of my land so my sweetheart doesn't have to import the material she does to make the shirts i wear. i would like to be buying colorado grown hemp for my girlfriend to make for hemp clothes. it is coming one step closer to reality. if we leave everybody here with one thought, what i am trying to implant in the colorado university and then the u.s. industly, you know north dakota, kentucky, california farmers are chomping at the bit and they read the agriculture journals and know the prices. it is a profitable crop. in farming there is a term dual cropping and it means you use one crop for more than one purpose. so what i would like to see it hemp is tricropping and that is main thing that i set out in hemp found. i got to ride in a limo that was powered by hemp. it was very comfortable. bill altus, thanks for that. but the three, so i want to see tri-cropping with hemps. in every colorado processor i deally community-owned processor, farmers will bring their feed in, which is where the money is today we will talk about, it isn't a comp llicated thing pressing the oil. the gook coming down is an omega super food. i went to a university where they fed the laying hens hemp versus corn feed and the resulting eggs were market hot. the nutritional analysis was way higher content of good things in the hemp fed chickens. seed oil, boom. it comes out and you market it regionally. the seed cake in the press makes fantastic animal feed. i know people that feed their pigs on nothing but that and compost all winter. before tonight's event, mike bowman and i talked about pigs that are hemp-fed in washington states and they are growing fatter and heathier in a study going on there. and that jives with a woman who said she remembered her dad planting hemp along the irrigation ditches as erosion control. so not just the terrible dust bowl in the heart land, but mali and sub-saharan african. and then when planting irrigation was done in the fall they sent the cattle out and the cattle loved it and that jives with the study we see in the universities. there is your seed oil. i visited the biggest hemp mogul in canada. sean crew. they are undergoing their fourth expansion in ten years. it wasn't that big of a factory. it doesn't take much to process oil. that is one section. there is your oil in one section. second section we have this fiber obviously. stronger than steel and they are in benze and bmw's. there is a fiber application which is construction. chop up the hemp fibers, mix with lime, and it makes a pink insulation that is better than the chemical-based products. we are going to revamp the shelves of home depot. but the third element i want i want to leave you with is energy. in europe today, entire communities in germany and austria are becoming energy independent through an anaerobic compbustion product. the units are small and the army is investing in them and that could be in the corner of the factory connect today a grid or maybe a community electric cooperative getting rid of grids and making better and saver distributed grids. you can youtube austria and see this or look up the story of the german town that became fossil-fuel free and are in control of their own energy. i would love to see american communities do that and i would support and advertise it f. fiber, seed oil and energy. we need the energy to happen. how many people have ready "collapse"? it is a scary story that in great civilizations he documents what went wrong and they sound eerily familiar. this is the modern day cambodia culture. for our purposes as neighbors i am your neighbor to the south and we new mexicans shared that area of the four corners. talk about globalization. they were trading from seattle to costa rica. it looked good. cities and trade routes and then it collapse. see if it sounds familiar to you. it is like poisoning the water supply, overdevelopment and followed by nutty right ring leaders at the end. seriously. there is an idea the monuments get bigger and they say keep believing, sorry there is no clean water. we need to tackle this. and as a father i am more c confidant about this. i feel as though the carbon mitigation blue print is in place. make sure you include energy -- this is what we call the upside of prohibition. the canadians have the varieties dialled in and ready for us. america's kentucky hemp seed was the sort of beacon of the world. it led the world. kentucky alone -- the first millionaire was a hemp mogul. hemp was a big business in wisconsin, missouri, ohio -- not so much colorado but it will be now. there was approval for a hemp study in hawaii and we went to visit place that was a warehouse inside a warehouse and opened up a box and there was rotted beef. so we had to start from scratch with research. and people in the room, veronica is one of them, are starting that research now. but we can take the seed industry from canada. the fiber knowledge of china and europe. this is a european dutch factory that makes the fiber that goes into the bmw's and mercedes-benz today. and make them all part of the first generation. this is fun. mercedes doesn't put hemp fiber in its door panels because they are wearing tie die and throwing peace signs. it is because it is an inexpensive, strong force for their vehicles. the company, hemp flax, that provide the hemp have been at it for 20 years. and they have to jerry rig the process even. there is a learning curve, but you colorado residents out there know how to do it. they know how to do big agriculture and they know how to interact with the land around here. it isn't rocket scientist especially when it comes to seeds and that is where you should be starting; with seat cultivers. the federal agencies have to thorn feder allow the federal law and allow you to import seeds here. and university research has been approved by the feds and you trying to bring the tax base back and put farmers to work, colorado state, sorry to be calling you out, boulder and other areas you should be signing on with the farmers and conducting research. the canadians want to buy all of the oil and i love you canada and they have a ban on gmo hemp. but i would rather be boulder county and wells county have regional processors of oil i can buy at my food co-op. chinese presidents visits the hemp factories instead of using money to get rid of them. why would china's president do that? cotton provides 30% of the world's pesticides. so they are poisoning their soil and loosing productivity. they know what is going on. because of the textiles because they girlfriend is interested in it, in the textile world the softness of a shirt you would buy at the mall, some poor bangladesh put it together probably, they call that hand. it is going to be soft. the soft hand. reminds me of a sign field episode with george had the upper hand in the relationship once and he complains to the girl breaking up with him and said i had hand and she said you are going to need it. china is going into hemp fire because they have to. cotton is toxic. the seed oil industry, let's hope one day that will just be the oil industry. it isn't rocket science rendering seed oil. you can do it. i have a list of some and there are more coming online soon. great ones tonight. chitchatting afterwards but we will have to step it outside as the bookstore closes after the q and a. so the oil is this super food. we cannot eat enough of the stuff. we buy 90% of the canadian crops. i am a small-time rancher. so when i interviewed sean crew i said what about people like me, i have 40 acres and will plant 20-30 when it is legal. and he said talk to the hand. if you are under a thousand acres you a hobby farmer. and you know, spoke it like a manitoba guy. a winnipeg jet fan. that is how you do it up there. and that is fantastic and fine. i am doing the math here. this isn't anything other than what people are declaring on their tax refounds. canadians are getting $300 profit per acre so minimum 10,000 acres -- that is more than i made in book sales in my entire career after four books that farmers are making on one-years crop in canada. i don't think you need to do that many acres. a man who was doing everything he could to get hemp to people told me don't let people say it has to be a mega crop, billion dollar industry, you have a network of farms going 15-20 acres of hemp you can have a profitable industry. you all work together and own the processor and are joint investors. i am in the middle ground on this. i am fine with people having a mchemp sandwich at mcdonalds. that is fine with me as long as it isn't hmo. i am going to chose a local source. my goats can't wait to be fed hemp. they told me that during our morning meditation. it is really true. i start every day meditating with goats. it was one of the reasons i was thanking the politicals. i would like to thank the people that do the leg work in the colorado legislator and got the hemp industry going that is going to show the world what the plant has to offer humanity. they are dealing with human beings feeling all kind of energy and bookroom deals and i am milking goats and listen to mating calls. so thank you people in the trenches who made it happen. on the fiber side, things i look like hemp textiles like hemp paper. bless you my publisher printing hemp bound on hundred percent recycled paper and they are going for it. they tried to make hemp happen on the first edition of "hemp bound" and it isn't there anymore. it cannot happen on a mass market paperback. so they are talking about through grow hemp colorado sponsoring a colorado farmer and there is going to be a contest to grow the fiber that can go into the future edition of "hemp bou bound". that might seem wild, but in winnipeg, canada, a government joined private industry -- isn't that wonderful? they are burning the fiber and they have a car and tractor build of hemp and it is out performing petro by every step of the way. they are not hipsters. they are scientist trying to figure out would work. can you see this at your john deer factory? it is built from the hemp you colorado residents are going to manufacture vite manufacture. the first fiber killer app -- plant it for the seed oil, first generation, that is where the money is. your fiber app, if you don't have the skills to do the sophisticated stuff like the textiles, nano technology and body armor -- how many people knew george bush senior's parachute twine was made of hemp that saved his life in world war ii? construction is an easy low maintenance app. the test that are going on in universities in canada especially are showing hemp, crete and mixing with lime and they create carbon negative homes and out performing pink insulation and starting to be developed in load bearing application. i called up a company that is all over england and now they are selling it in in the united states. chop up your fiber and sell it to the construction industry. what hemp creed is done right it creates a light and airy easy to pack. concrete has to be heated up to thousands of degrees. it is intensely energy demanding. so i ask in the book, is this a no-brainer? you are building hemp houses and stores out of hemp. and entire subdivisions. is it a no brainer? and he said it is no-brainer for anyone maintaining the structure they are developing. if you are just trying to do, you know, flipping stuff with whatever is cheapest god knows what toxcity and particle board and dry wall -- and flip it. today in europe it is toss up on cost but the energy efficiency, durability and maintenance with hemp if you are thinking five years ahead is a no-brainer. but i went on sight in canada, ma manitoba, to a house they want to provide it as low income. and they are finding it is extremly mold and mildew and in hawaii they found termite resistant. i asked the real guys, not the pr people and the housing minister giving me the tour, i idea the guys with the construction hats what it was like to build with hemp insulation on the sight. and they said once we got the mixture figured out it was the best job we did. it is quick, you can paint or plaster over it and the energy efficiency is clear even in the middle of building the house. it took a couple days of experimenting with the mixture of hemp mixed with lime to find the consistency. it took a couple days of experimenting to find the ideal mixture. that is the most cynical thing i can tell you about the application. but more than one long-term hempster said they believe construction will be the first fiber killer app. we have 30% of americans as farmers when hemp prohibition started and now we have 1%. and we can talk about the causes of it but the bottom line is farmers are trying to make a living like everybody else and if what they are doing is great for the earth, which hemp is, that is fantastic. & a great bonus. but it is about being able to harvest a crop for which there is a market. and i believe whether it is a thousand acres. i visited his farm. and rebuilding america's seed stock and other people were there. he has $600,000 invested in the farm's harvesting equipment. this is real business. he showed me technology i could not believe. if it is going to be massive i would love to see it be hemp. every hemp bound event i have done i have been asked is monsanto going to take it over? and i say if we get the gmo-ban like they have in place in canada in the united states. i wanted to see if i would explode saying that. it is like we are experiencing technical difficulties on c-span right now. bless you for covering this event. hurray for c-span. you know, i don't know mind when you are driving through minnesota and wisconsin that sed instead of seeing endless field of earth killing corn you see hemp. i will support that. wonderful people, super religious heart land canadian farmers, pauline dick and her terrific kids are growing several hundreds of acres of hemp and she had a dream of making a healthy energy bar. she is a tri-athlete and thought they were not up to par. she put a mixture together from an early hemp harvest and won a contest and got $20,000 and has this incredible hemp energy bar company from the hemp the family grows on the farm in manitoba. skipping ahead, mike bowman is here today, and the hemp brand is encapsulated by the dr. bronners soap company. $54 million company. he collects five times the salary of the lowest paid employee. the olive oil in their soap is from orchids cultivated by israels and palstines. and he looked himself in a cage in front of the whitehouse last year with this hemp plant. this is where i want to apologize for my mother. what are you going to say at the bridge club meeting -- saw your son holding the cannabis plant on the booktv. but no, i am proud to do that. my kids have a great time visiting the hemp field and mike said his grandkids are having a great time this year. so david bronner is arrested in front of the whitehouse. and he is saying it is happening now. thank you again, colorado. as far as the hemp brand goes, that kind of rightiousness is like arm and hammer baking soda that is like a natural way to clean your fridge or counter and hemp has that brand, too. and that is the bottom line reason to make sure there is never any genetically modified hemp. franken hemp that is off-brand and this has been a movement for 77 years to get the plant back to the economy matters. and we should stick to that. for those who come knew to the plant, i should mention hemp prohibition was an accident and a typo. when the misguided marijuana tax app was inputed -- the most interesting thing is that within a few years it was already shipping american business offshore because world war ii broke out and our source for the 40 tons of hemp rigging that every navy vehicle needed was the philippines because farmers couldn't grow hemp anymore but the japanese captured them. all of a sudden you can go to youtube and check out this pr propganda film. the fact it took another 70 years to cultivate again is in sane but it happened. i was reducing the sustainable cannabis industry for my last book and i found it in progressive county in the red woods and if anymore progressive it would be clothing optional in the market. the first area to ban genetically modified organisms. and i asked if the sheriff enforced it and he said there was a ride on gmo corn in the county. which i thought was funny. i am still alive. so you are allowed to speak out against gmo. i love democracy. and this cannabis industry is not an occupier. this is pro-hemp republican senator from kentucky mitch mcconnell leading the charge in the senate. there is a lot of backroom funny stories about what brought senator mcconnell to hemp. and one of them reported by ryan grim suggested that senator mcconnell's colleague in kentucky promised not to run a tea party candidate against him in a primary if he would get behind hemp. whatever it takes. the reason i include my rent sign here is i thought the no passing sign is unfriendly. this is at the interest to my black diamond driveway in the middle of nowhere. this is the sign here: i mentioned this because i have a sympathy for rural america. i am one of you. i am here to help as colorado gets going and introducing people it processors. after the hemp expo, i was approached by a guy that wanted to provide facilities for the farmers. that is why i brought them here. by the way, no one has ever honored that sign. i am not a dedicated nudist and those of you who know i am a goat herder and you would think you can go get your boxers off the laundly line without anyone knowing but it is also when mary is coming down the driveway when i am out there. i think she has binoclars on or something. but in buyers, colorado where he did the planting on july 4th, these were conservative people and didn't hear a negative word about hemp. colorado farmers are ready to go and the reason is because of the dust bowl we are experiencing. this is not a photo from 1932 from the grapes of wrath. this is 2012, lamar, colorado. jol jolene hickson didn't know the difference between marijuana and hemp last year. that is her wheat field. this is no joke. ask a conservative rancher whether or not global warming is real. any time we get off petroleum we replace it with something like building composit and get that into hemp instead of the petro-chemical based building materials we use. any time you get on petroleum you are doing something good were the world. last week in the niger delta terrible things are happening. i am not someone that can criticize the patretroleum induy because i believe they made it great. i will not be able to use my mac without the petroleum. we would not have won world war ii without texas crowd and hemp for that matter. if we have a gusher up there next to the lincoln monument i am cool with that. but that was last century and let's move on to the next thing. the big issue for american farmers now and you colorado residents know that is how do you get your seeds. one would like to think that the employees that work for us and are paid with our tax dollars follow the law of the land, which now says university research is cool in hemp states so and by the way, there is great further hemp legislation in congress that we should be supporting and getting involved in that. and if you want me to get more specific on that. does anybody know the name of the current within the state multiple people are developing seeds including people here tonight. so you can find them within the state rebuilding of the plasm for heme hemp. but the ditch weed in nebraska is still the and hemp's foot long tap roots -- it is an annual plant and has these tap roots and that is why it is so st stabl stablilizin stabilizing. you are creating an underground system with things that are important to soil health. that is why hemp is valuable for remeadiation and why conservative kentucky energy plants are planting hemp and using it in this gasification process we have been talking about. let darwin chose. use the nebraska ditch weed. just plant that. there is nothing wrong with that. it is good idea especially if your plan is building material where the fiber doesn't have been to uniform. but for the high end application, the hemp flax people in the netherlands, my micromanage this and they have been uniform and perfect if they were going to bmw or mercedes-benz. there is a hemp it at this. i know the hempsters are law-abiding citizens so i don't want to make it seem like they are outlaws or here heroes but let's change the federal law and university get on board and do the research so they were like where did the seed come from? and he said i am keeping that on the down low and friends sent them to me all over. we are building the seed stock today thank god. and we are not getting raided. the climate change issue you are seeing in eastern colorado is affecting all of you. we had terrible floods. noah had 40 days and 40 nights where he could not find land? well i had 40 days that would not let me cross the creak from my ranch to the civilization road. a neighborhood tried and it was ugly. hemp matters to me as a father. i came to hemp once i had kids because hemp not cotton held up to that. if you had kids and did clothe diapers and it is poop, line dry, poop, line, dry, break for lunch. and hemp, not cotton held up in the real world. dr. broner's soap was the non-toxic issues to bathe my youngsters in. and hemp seed oil, expensive and waiting for the day i can press it myself, but was my girlfriend's prenatal high grade source of omega. my goats, by the way, i brought a sample of the book telling them i would be feeding them hemp soon and they started by the biting in the book. and the hemp oil ride i told you about, believe me, the exhaust does give you the munchies. i enjoy the textile side and like wearing the hemp clothes and i am glad my girlfriend makes it for me. this is hemp corduroy and she did a good job with the snaps on this. and this is made by a commercial market but the vest and shirt she made. this is the message saying this is longevity. recently a study in turkey, looking good and ready for showtime and i was invited to testify for changing international drug laws and ending cannabis prohibition for money laundering and hurting families at the high session of the u.n. i think i was the first person to testify to be claded from head to toe in hemp. i told you about the hemp eggs and their nutrient profile. and hemp twine. where do i find hemp twine? made in india sold at walmart. i didn't tell you the end of the story about when i was researching sustainable cannabis counties and i saw the stalk from the plant isn't being used and it has an energy resource and that planted me the seeds for "hemp bound". the reason i believe industrial cannabis is going to be bigger than the other kind is because coors is big but exon pexonn is bigger. so a quick reality check. the post harvest process of retting -- how many people have heard of retting? it is a bit medieval. if you see sketches from the 10th century france hemp fields it looks like this. minus the factory there. i have the slide here because i was told if you tell people something three times they retain it. so in addition to the seed oil and the fiber want you to get the energy. so i am sneaking it into slides that has nothing else to do with it. so retting -- it isn't a no brainer to cultivate hemp for oil. you have to harvest at the right time and store it in a way that it retains the correct moisture level before getting to the processors and i think newbies could figure it out. there is a fungal battle going on after retting and it is two weeks of rotating with the right amount of moisture so this incredible outer bar opens up. i write about a fellow named clark who developed a decoordinator and it isn't a new concept. but it is expensive and allows you to strip the bark off from harvest. so it might be going from 10th century to 20th and i bring this up so any time i cannot sound like your roommate with the lava lamp i need to do it. i am a believer. i think the hemp industly is going to take off. canadian farmers are profiting $300 per acre and save the earth while they are at it. it is a patriotic issues that is causing people that don't normally talk about things like mitch mcconnell. and thank you mike bowman as well. that is where i met you. and this was the hoisting of the hemp flag above the colorado state house on colorado day last year. but also july 4th. the hemp flag went over the u.s. capital last year. it is one of those moments you cannot turn back like whether commies were the big enemy. you could not call your congressman and say i need a photo of boys ner hoisted over the capital. but hemp is the opposite of the ene enemy. it is one of the most patriotic industries you can support. i want to see the hemp sandwich in mcdonald's. this was usda researcher developing cultivars. i want to continue the discussion because the changes happening every day -- in boulder i was approached by a researcher at the national renewable energy labs, and jason spoke to him to, saying i think the farm bill is changing things and i think we may not have to ignore this anymore. we are going to do climate change and it is because your roommate with the lava lamp was right. thank you for coming. [applause] can i take can up couple questions? >> i am in illinois, any prospect of combgetting that in here? >> in the state of illinois? what i think is going to happen is -- illinois made great strides like medical cannabis. i mention this because minds are open on the officialism. president obama voted to legalize hemp as an illinois legislature twice, by the way. so missouri is in the forefront. ohio is pushing hard and texas just gave a talk at rice university and i should not ask surprise because the baker institute gets it and they get it in terms of drug policy because they are a border state and know what cannabis prohibition does via organized crime. and from the ambassador to the name-sake of the institute to all of the researchers there are totally on board. and texas is ready on hemp. so i think just as california is often kind of paving the way for things that happen across the nation and across the west i think texas is going to be the reverberation across the south there. i think illinois will follow missouri and ohio are going it be the first in the midwest. >> gary, indiana is stuck in a terrible cycle. we have had the land since 1875 but the bank runs it and we are paying a lot for the input. we all inherited it but we are not making good use of it. we have a fine farm house and weep don't want to live it. it is out in the country all by itself on the highest land location and eight miles from indiana. the whole history of the tipping canoe battle is in that vicinity. but the thing is it is all petro chemicals out there. farmers now just farm when we harvest the crops like mowing the yard. we are stuck in a syndrome of the high cross of what they call input. >> it sounds like ripe for fiber remediation. but i am glad that you mention this because besides the strictly physical soil remediation it is land use and putting farmers back in control with their land from farmers that can make a living. that is the ultimate goal. i would like to see it happen in illinois. anybody from illinois with influence contact your legislatures. >> bill gates just bought a whole section near the farm. but it is big farmers. they will sell off a section at a time and we are just a small farm. >> how many acres? >> about 2/3rds of the half session. >> that is enough to get the hemp going. >> but the thinking is stuck in the state of illinois. >> spending top energy for that. >> linda? >> i want to encourage anyone who wants to know more check out the rocky mountain hemp association's website. and there is a button where you can become a member. we welcome everyone. we want it to be the networking website for farmers and industry and anyone who is interested on any aspect of this unfolding of hemp in the united states or at least in colorado. rockymountainhempassociation.org . >> i am a member and i forgot to introdu introduce susan. this is a colorado senator who put force the earliest efforts. linda and jason can speak to this better. but a day to see farmers cultivated commercial hemp must feel good and thank you f. >> how much of the market is driven by the prohibition? ... you can't make any assumption that way but the curve of demand is not only so strongly upward it has me been reached that malfusian where it takes off yet. the canadians are desperate and the processors in canada are desperate for american farmers to get the seed planted because how much the demand demand is going. at least in the foreseeable future i believe farmers will see profits growing seed oil and effect winds up stabilizing keep in mind a 100-dollar profit is more than twice of what the average american farmer is making on soy profit. even if that stabilizes the energy independence i think hemp is here to stay and it is true that this is the new industry for the u.s.. one of humanities longest utilize plants as an industry. most industries fail. most new industries fail. we can't guarantee this is going to be an automatic success but hemp is not new. the benefits of hemp i mean the persians call it the king of seeds. i don't want to lay the dash my own spiritualism on anyone else but if you are a religious person genesis chapter 1, the first chapter of the bible, first 29 says you shall have all the plants and seeds to use, not unless some dude named richard nixon comes along and says there's a couple we don't like. thank you all. [applause] >> thank you doug. doug will be happy to sign copies of his book at the front desk. pepperdine university's angela hawkins sat down with booktv to discuss the pros and cons of marijuana -- marijuana legalization. this interview is part of booktv's college series. >> host: the book is called "marijuana legalization" what everyone needs to know. it's published by oxford university press. one of the co-authors and editors is angela hawken who is a public policy professor at pepperdine university where we are on location. angela hawken is this book pro-or anti-legalization of marijuana? >> guest: neither. if it's written by four authors and that is what is the genius of oxford university press bringing together four different opinions and together figuring out what the evidence base is. the problem with issues surrounding marijuana is there are such strong advocacy groups on both sides of the issue and when the public reads about it they have no idea which direction they are being pulled into. >> host: where do you stand personally initiate? >> guest: i was hoping you'd wouldn't accept that now that you did in chapter 16 of the book each of the authors was required to basically declare the subject and for many academics it's an uncomfortable thing to do. you don't want to show your hand in and research we have provide as unbiased as we are able to set of perspectives. in this case the four authors i was the one who was most in favor of there are one or legalization until commercial legalization which i think was surprising to many because my background. >> host: why are you in favor of? >> guest: as i said in the chapter my drug of choice at cradle anglican had my first drink of wine and when i was 13 years old during communion and a irregular consumer and reasonable and safe consumer of wine. my drug of choice is alcohol. for others their drug of choice is marijuana and in terms of social harms the social harms of alcohol or dominate the social harms of marijuana. as a policy analyst everyone wants to see the laws handled more equitably and there wasn't a strong case for anti-marijuana use in the face of rolax laws surrounding alcohol given the risks of alcohol use and the harms are so much greater with alcohol than marijuana. the question didn't ask me which "cnn" has done to a number of my colleagues is have you used or are you a user. you are the pro-legal one so clearly you are a user. my team had been working with the state of washington and we would ask the question often argue users and who is advising the government? for a while the position taken by the team is simply not to answer the question. there's no good way if you are a researcher to answer the question are you a pot user but i'm willing to tell you today in spite of the fact that i'm one of the four who is most in favor of marijuana legalization i am not a user. i really do come to this without a horse in the race and someone who looks at the data and is concerned with what i have seen. >> what's the acceptability of marijuana use in the united states and maybe even hearing california? >> it's unclear at the time and this is why we seen such strong -- and political rhetoric surrounding marijuana is changing. the latest result that i saw last year the change in the meantime peer recorded findings from the summer of 2013 looking at where the public is on the issue and at that time it had changed by now but 50% of americans were in favor of legalizing marijuana. when you have a majority the public supporting something like that politicians have to pay attention. politicians tend to be rather fickle. the language surrounding marijuana use is changing and california did not pass marijuana legalization when voters want to pull in 200010. it was not passed in by an narrow margin net loss of the two states that passes the book has been out planned a release date surrounding the time of the book going to the voting polls. we were surprised. my co-authors thought the state would not tip. we sell washington and colorado move in the direction of legalization. >> host: when is it going to be on the ballot in california? >> guest: you know i believe the advocacy players are in california and 2016 and for a few years now it's been the chatter that the big push for marijuana in california would be 2006 and that would be an important election year. i'm surprised if other states of move in the meantime. california will be a laggard state in that regard. >> host: who smokes marijuana in united states? >> guest: was stunning number of people smoke marijuana. they prevalent use is three to 4% globally. americans have a much more aggressive taste for marijuana than that. we are running at three times. >> host: so 10%. the. >> guest: nl last year 13 million americans smoked marijuana. most of them about a third of those were people who we call the experimenters someone who will really think of it as being something quite radical. they have the drag and a smoke of puff. about a third of that as people who are the unusual experimenters. it's not a way of life for them and that we have a relatively sizable share of the population who are social smokers. they will smoke once in a while because they have peers who are smoking and is really another way of life but there's a group of people about 20% of marijuana users for whom this is really way of life. they spoke every day or every couple of days and some of them will go want to have an issue with abuse or dependency. marijuana is different from some of the illegal drugs in terms of abuse and dependency so if you look at people who are regular consumers of marijuana for example people who use every two days or more often and daily users or every two days, about a third of marijuana users who use that much meet clinical criteria for abuse or dependency. if you take a drug like cocaine 88% meet the clinical criteria for abuse or dependency so the typical heavy user of cocaine is dependent upon cocaine. the typical user of marijuana is not dependent on marijuana. which i think does differentiate marijuana from some of the other drugs in an important way. >> host: how does that compare to alcohol abuse or use? >> guest: until my senegal and marijuana in terms of use and abuse are relatively similar. many people use alcohol every day or every three days. every couple of days i'm going to have a glass of wine. those ratios look similar to marijuana and alcohol in terms of how many people going to have a problem with use. that's not to say it's an issue. some people really do meet clinical criteria for dependency and abuse whose lives are unproductive and they are not able to get things done. they self disclose is having tried to quit and haven't managed to quit the people who do meet those political criteria even though they are a minority have serious issues and trying to move on to a life that doesn't include the use of the substance. >> host: angela hawken with a medical marijuana laws is that i way around legalization and punishment? >> guest: at the jerry's depending on the state you are in. in california it's essentially if you went to venice beach is notorious you could look at the long list of ailments and they will tell you what to complain about and he will meet with the recommendations in a few minutes so essentially it's become a very easy environment in which to obtain, essentially legal access to marijuana. but the legalization of marijuana and that commercial legalization is different from medical marijuana and that it really allows the production and sale of marijuana for nonmedical use, for recreational use. in the book i describe medical marijuana in detail and my concerns about medical marijuana according to the california model where really they -- these doctors have made a fuss. there are some people who have serious medical issues who are turning to marijuana for relief. they turn out to be a tiny percentage of the total number of medical marijuana users. about 5% have what we would consider diagnosable reason for carrying a medical marijuana card. the rest are probably people who enjoy amusing -- enjoyed using marijuana. as i said i'm in favor of legalization side no reason to be unhappy about that except i don't like is somebody who is willing to lie to a doctor to obtain a card has no problem where someone who does want to make those false statements does. i think it creates an uncomfortable system. i have some real concerns about how it is played out in some states. >> host: what kind of tax revenues has california garnered from medical marijuana and what are the early results from colorado? >> guest: colorado has been fascinating to watch. the last few months we have seen taxation results released and advocacy groups from the beginning were talking massive tax benefits in many states looking for additional source of revenue is very appealing. in some of the states the idea of marijuana legalization being a cure for problems sounded very appealing. the initial estimates most of us thought were too high. the tax revenues would not be nearly as high as the advocacy group had implied. the results came out in colorado and the tax revenues were much higher. suddenly we were wrong in our understanding of this. if you look closely what happened in colorado in the early after when pot was made legal there wasn't sufficient legal supplies. supply and demand will tell you if you ever do supply and there's a lot of tourism. people came to colorado to use because it was the first movement around it so a lot of people came into colorado. there was limited supply so prices skyrocketed. there was an artificial blips surrounding the law. colorado itself has issued statements saying their protections for tax revenue in colorado aren't nearly, not nearly as rosy as the initial data suggested so my guess is that tax revenues, there will be tax revenues. they won't be nearly as big as initially predicted an part of that is because of reductions in price. as morris produced and as the producers get better producing it we are likely to see downward pressure on prices. some of my co-workers believe there will be a sizable reduction in plummeting in prices. the nature of how marijuana is produced and running a business in general there are natural costs involved in any sort of business operation that will keep the price is higher than we might have suggested in the book. it's one of the things we should have -- [inaudible] >> host: is there an association with crime and marijuana? >> guest: it's so interesting. the association between drug use and crime is muddled. all the criminal literature and none can show a true causal relationship between drug use and crime. the idea is there a many reasons why people might be involved in crime and drug use at the same time. some people commit crimes to finance their drug use. marijuana is an expensive so the economic motivation for marijuana users isn't especially a compelling argument. some people might commit crime because of the physiological response to the drug and somehow the drug makes them predisposed to commit a crime. the evidence in madison very good and the drug that comes closest to that is methamphetamine. the physiological relationship is slight. the lip laboratory experiments were with mice and they would load up these mice with methamphetamine. you have to give mice near lethal doses and they don't behave all that differently. what happened with marijuana users is there with aggression associated with it. much like with heroin users if someone uses heroin the guy in the corner goes to sleep essentially. the causal uses between drug use and crime are complicated and often where the criminal elements as come and is sometimes the trade related to the drug rather than a drug use itself. and of course drinking and driving or driving under the influence is a crime and will marijuana legalization lead to an increase in drunk driving is an important question. someone like myself who says i've might be willing to see legalization play out would quickly change my mind if i see results from washington and colorado and they show an increase in drunk driving or more partly if the results show marijuana and alcohol use together. if an increase in marijuana use is accompanied by an increase in alcohol use i will fundamentally change my mind on marijuana legalization. we will learn in the next few years. if many of us who are academics studying the marijuana issue want to see that result. the other issue is the controversial voice for many decades now is the relationship between marijuana use and other illegal drugs. is the fact that more people are consuming marijuana which is lacking the face of legalization will lead to higher rates of use of other illegal drugs, that could be a concern or is the opposite possible that an increased use of marijuana because it's legal might suppress the use of other illegal drugs? all these questions that we will know the answers to in a few years which is why some of us think if we are ambivalent about the legal -- legalization of marijuana you might learn a stunning amount for the future. back to drunk driving. often we get the question asked by a parent is it better for for me if my child drives stoned or drives drunk like the answer is better not let your children use any of the above if they're behind the wheel. it's much more dangerous to drive drunk and stoned. in other words driving under the influence of marijuana and alcohol is much more dangerous than driving either under one or two in isolation. relationship is a complicated one and i think we will have to learn a lot about before we understand where policy should be. a stunning fact was talked about prevalence a while ago, 44% of american twelfth-graders have used pot. 6% of them are everyday users so marijuana use is -- has been around for long time and it can be used in large quantities. we know very little about the influence of marijuana on the growing brain. brain science hopefully now that we have the states tipping will allow for brain science to catch up so we can learn about what stages the brain develop in the cycle is marijuana essential in a negative way. >> host: angela hagan is the marijuana being sold in colorado and medical clinics etc. isn't it domestic product? >> guest: most of our marijuana spread from mexico. there is high-grade marijuana produced in california so the high-grade the commercial grade is in the single digits thc level. there have been scary stories in the media about teenage levels of 40% and this is the marijuana that will kill your grandchildren. we hardly ever see those cases played out. most of the upper of the marijuana that's confiscated his commercial grade. it's low-level thc coming from mexico. >> host: that's the medical marijuana as well? >> guest: the marijuana would be produced locally. >> host: is higher thc? >> guest: was grown to make sure not only is there a known thc level but gracious between chemical compounds in marijuana. thc tends to get all the attention but there's another chemical in marijuana code cbd which reduces anxiety level associated with marijuana use. a trend that has been to increase thc and increased cbd which is why you see more emergency room appearances because people are using marijuana at higher levels of thc than typically used in the past that the cbd is suppressed so you can't have anxiety depressed -- and that is why we see emergency visits increase. >> host: in part of our series with pepperdine high school we talked with a public policy professor as well. he said he's been smoking cigarettes for 62 years and today would be easier to smoke marijuana in california than a cigarette in public. >> guest: i don't think that's true. he has a fun personality but it is. that's not a prescription. these aren't prescriptions made by doctors and if they were doctors would be held accountable for a higher standard of diagnosis. anyway i wish there was a prescription requirement. instead of the recommendation won't doctor recommend marijuana might be useful for whatever your ailment is at the clinic. but it's astonishing to secure recommendation and easy to find. >> host: angela hawken again this book what everyone needs to know about me at marijuana legalization do you take a position on marijuana legalization in this book collects. >> guest: in the book i say outright that i'm of the four authors the most in favor of legalization for the reason i suggested. the cost of the criminal justice system is astonishing, 750,000 per arrests for marijuana use. we are making criminals out of our relatives and children. there's a better way to deal with this than to the criminal justice system so i'm in favor of air while legalization. that said i'm in favor of evidence. if the early data shows this decision was a bad one i will be the strongest advocate for turning things around. it really depends on the data. >> host: how does the u.s. fit in with the rest of the world when it comes to legalization issues? >> guest: we have seen decriminalization. people talk about the netherlands and portugal but these two states where the first jurisdictions on earth to ever allow the commercial sale of marijuana which makes this -- uruguay has filed suit. what's interesting is this is left the community and a bit of a scramble. the u.s. government is a signatory to treaties that say you have to pursue and stop the use of illegal drugs including marijuana. international narcotics control board has sent letters to the united states into uruguay following these legalization moves and as a watchdog body international narcotics board doesn't have a lot of teeth. a park slope at his neverland teeth. the truth is very little the states -- states are not signatories to international and the federal government can pursue marijuana cues in any of the states but can't require the states use their resources to pursue marijuana grocers and -- growers and users. the federal government has been really quiet and has taken a backseat. if they were ever going to take a mission of marijuana legalization and try to stop it in their tracks they should have done it now while it was in two states. the federal government has limited resources for fighting drug issues. 4000 dea agents nationwide. if they were to take it on that have to do it in washington and colorado. >> host: what are the laws in their home country of south africa? >> guest: it's illegal. >> host: illegal being jail time, illegal being a fine? >> guest: the legal response to marijuana use is relatively muted. they have for stories about some kid who ended up spending real time for marijuana use. that rarely happens. if someone is in custody for marijuana use is usually the result of a plea bargain or some kind of history where the judge was concerned about public safety records for other reasons. for example if you look at inmates serving time with marijuana charges most people would say -- if you look at their histories the history of the typical marijuana user in a prison has a stronger history of violence than serving for a violent charge. if you are marijuana user made it into custody there was more going on than just marijuana use. we tend to have laws that treat marijuana differently from other drugs. often in it could be a penalty or fine. >> host: angela hawken teaches public policy at pepperdine. she consults for the u.n. and the state department. >> tony dokoupil who covers marijuana legalization for nbc news talks about his father who smuggled more than 50 tons of marijuana into the united states between 1975 and 1986. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. [applause] >> i have an assistant that is coming in here with some more notes so i won't stand on that. i remember when the store was open in the early 70's. i haven't been back here very much but park slope, we came out here in 1968 and bought a house 50 yards away on the other side of paul menos. this old irish lady was holding out for $40,000. [laughter] we got her down five grand, something we could afford. and then i left 20 years later having raised a family here and so it's really good to be back. writing a book about drug dealers is very alluring. a lot of people do it because you are dealing with people -- unless you were doing with methamphetamine dealers or heroin dealers whose product is a lot more lethal they are basically an entertaining lot. while they know there are drugs they don't really think what they are doing is wrong. selling stuff to people who want it at a market price. it's only harmful if you overindulge. sean licker next door which we used to call sean liquor and he would not only deliver liquor but he would deliver cash money and he would give him a check. he would cash the check, give your liquor. [laughter] i just left his son a note to say hi kevin i think his name is. do you still deliver cash to houses along with liquor? but these guys feel very clever about themselves. not only because they made a lot of money but because they really enjoyed their cat and mouse game with the police which is automatically usually very fun funny. they go on until they are caught but it's a lifestyle that to them is as addictive as if they were putting something into their arm. and very few of them get out of it safely. very few of them graduate to normality. take my guide george who was the protagonist of blow, he was free and clear of the law when he and i got together and 91, 92, two years. he had been blacked out for testifying against carlos later. he wasn't out on any condition. he was sentenced to 60 years. they just let them out so he was given this incredible get out of jail free card. so we talked, but the book came out i think in 93. george got bored. he went throughout the tv shows and everything and there's nothing george could do that would engage him anywhere near as much. he couldn't do anything. he was never employed other than a manual labor when he was a teenager. so we had found this yucky indian import ofori-atta whom he had smuggled pot within the 60s. he went back to ramon in 1964 and they started smuggling pot again. he got arrested right away for 600 pounds in his basement on the cape. he was behind a false wall. didn't know how he got there. [laughter] the prosecutor waived the book in the courtroom, blow and said this man has followed the law his whole life and the judge in 1994 gave him 22 years straight up. he was 52 years old and he did every penny of it. he's getting out in may. he missed the movie. he missed everything. johnny depp came to the prison to learn the koran does boston's working-class accent that is probably the actor's bane of any accent. they went up there to give he and his wife a special showing of blow blowing everything but george missed the whole thing. it will be out i think it's ma may 28 out of fort dix federal correctional institution. i've lost touch with him in the last several years but he has a web site. he has a lot of people waiting for him out there. he has signed on with one of these piranhas in hollywood who will guarantee you we are going to do a lot with you george. you are going to be famous and he has for a while. something is going to happen to him. so anyway, georgia 72 and he has had a cancer operation on his forehead, a melanoma but i think he's okay. so he is out in 72. seller author tonight, he also knows somebody who stuck with it a long time, his old man. so this is his first book and just reading the bio, is certainly an impressive career. you have heard some of it but some of it that i thought was interesting was he graduated from gwu in 2003; lobby. he graduated first in his class. i have never known anybody, i have never known anybody who graduated first. he's very embarrassed about that i'm sure that they went to colombia for american studies and he found his way to "newsweek" magazine when it was connected with the daily beast. >> even before that when i was connected to the american mainstream. [laughter] >> right. my memory is hazy in that. and what interested me about it is he is a traditional jack of all trades reporter. i mean they are not around much anymore. he has written everything from a 10,000 a day corporate psychic to the last surviving veteran of world war i. the only in baltimore who adopted a white girl. >> we didn't fact check that. that's an assumption. >> no other black fathers have come forward with a white daughter. >> i can't "newsweek" when they started and i broke from colombia journalism and they started dropping their fact checker. the checkers i interviewed, smith is the editor and said well yeah i know but a few mistakes here and there. on the cover they misspelled garry wills' name on the cover of the magazine. where was i? black father, oh yeah. portrait of a reclusive author of the anarchist cookbook back in god knows when and one of the more effective exposés of scientologist l. ron hubbard. he's a senior writer at nbc news lives with his wife and two children. and another one just around the corner? >> thank you bruce. [applause] thank you all for coming. a lot of people in the room have been aware of this book for a long time. it's behind schedule. fortunately behind schedule. i was supposed to turn it into years ago and legal weed was not here. i think much of the conversati conversation, people wouldn't be as interested in the book if they weren't able to buy the stuff in washington now. where do i begin? i will give you a summary of the book which is something i gave a lot of thought to. i just created the daily news headlines from sunday. in the printed edition it was 50 tons of trouble. 50 tons was the number of poundage of weeds that my father brought in but the on line headline got a little more space. it managed to encapsulate the whole story. how a genius drug lord who peddle tons of pot became a destitute deadbeat dad with a habit. [laughter] that encapsulated perfectly. it should've been my subtitle but i didn't put it on there. bruce brings up an interesting point about the feeling that drug dealers in the 70s and 80s had about themselves and was an incredibly oceanic self satisfying feeling particularly the marijuana dealers. what made it possible for me is that my old man began getting into open up about his past is i could hide behind a reporter's notebook and reporters notebook and read it until they squirm a father-son story which i did squirm a bit, i was able to tell a bigger story about outlaws and the last kind of great american outlaw the gentleman smuggler, the gentleman dealer of that era. how did it become such a person? unlike a knockoff prohibition where people were happy to imbibe that the gangsters were providing the boos were a different social class and considered to be separate in the 70s when marijuana explosions when marijuana exploded as a drug and incredible explosion, right, the dealers were of the same social class. you were getting it from your college roommate. you weren't getting it from al capone or a gangster or a killer. this was a dramatic shift. it created a really adjusting alliance between the smokers in the dealers. eugene debs, you probably know this some sort of political leader in the 30s. i don't know. [laughter] >> first in her class? >> there's an actress next to the first in a class. it was a business school, come on. he said something like when a soul is in jail no man is free and marijuana smokers in the 70s felt like when the dealers in jail no smoker is free. so they deified these guys. if you were able to provide marijuana by the pound in mexico you were an absolute hero. in high times which is now a weird blend of rap music and gardening tips, it used to be a magazine. [laughter] it's an incredibly bizarre magazine now. it was founded by one of these are relic smugglers and it did for marijuana would rolling stone did for rock and roll. it had huge feature stories on grand scores and wonderful adventures and it talks about the contraband elite flying in that dope air force. if put out board games where you could beat the dealer and score and monopoly cards would be doled out and he would get your comeuppance or score big. so to enter this lifestyle was incredibly alluring. my father was 24 years old in 1970 when marijuana use was taking off. in 1967 to give you an idea, 5% of college kids according to gallup had tried marijuana. by 1970, 45% had come incredible growth and by the end of the decade one in five adults that smokes in the last month. it was the peak of marijuana use in this country. we are not there yet. we are heading there. my father wanted to participate in the show. he did it first with mexican marijuana and then in the middle of the decade he was thinking well, i made some money, i have a teaching degree. i can substitute maybe i will get out. jimmy carter came along and jimmy carter as often forgotten is very pro-marijuana. he ran on a platform of legalization. he nominated a drug czar to petition congress to pass a law to decriminalize marijuana. i think carter himself stood on the floor of congress in 1977 and had famously no drug should have a penalty that's worse than the drug itself. front page news so of course my father was like i'm on the ground floor of something gigantic. so he doubles his input. he starts driving winnebagos full of weeds out of key west enthusiastically looking to grow further into the country. and then shortly after carter's famous speech that christmas in fact this is an amazing moment in drug history and it changed my father's life and change my life by abstention. carter's drug czar peter bourne decides, i'm not sure why but he decides to go to the christmas party thrown by deleting marijuana legalization lobby company grown by -- a townhouse in washington d.c.. you walk in and he can see to the roof. it's a wild party. there are trace of joints being passed around. there are lines of cocaine as long as i in 95. there are jugglers doing psychedelic tricks with lights and the leading, the man in charge of drug enforcement in america walks into this party. not only does he walk in but the rumor starts to spread and it turns out it's not a rumor peter bourne wants to do cocaine. peter bourne would have been a hippie psychiatrist always liked cocaine wanted to decriminalize it also so he said let's go upstairs and we will do some cocaine. he goes to the top for this townhouse and in full view of two writers from high times for "washington post" reporters and the founder of the first marijuana legalization lobby he does a one and one which is one snort of cocaine in his right nostril and one sort of coke in his left nostril. it's called a bullet. just a twist and a twist. and so the story holds. unbelievably the story holds for six months. and then he makes the mistake of writing a prescription for qualoods which were known as a drug for hour-long sex sessions. the press gets ahold of that and they start digging more and they go from two friend on good morning america the story breaks. drugs are does cocaine at pot party. everything america had progressed towards in terms of progressive liberal drug laws completely collapses. jimmy porter declares a war and marijuana in my father's life has completely changed. he still driving winnebagos out of the u.s. but public opinion shifted and here comes ronald reagan. he could have gotten out that he didn't. and then there was a second moment much later in his career in 1986 where he had reached his own benchmark for moneymaking if he said he wanted to make a million and it made a million and you want to make 2 million then he got to 3 million and really he has nothing. the job was successful and 15 years after starting realizing he was qualified for nothing else at this point he made an offer to sit tight. i was in a private school in a nice home we had a mercedes with the cool boat and took vacations. in 86 he still around. he comes home to us and he's retiring. we have an ethic retirement party in st. thomas on a chartered yacht built for 15 people. there were 12 of us on it. fresh fruit and red snapper fillets. comes back to miami where we are living and all he has to do is nothing. just nothing and he's incapable of it. just like george yonnet sounds like. something about entering into the business either at the beginning or in the process of becoming successful that boils the mind or something. you become incapable of certain point of doing anything else. the alarm goes off and it echoes down the decades of life and you can't go forward on a regular constrained existence and you have to do something else. >> you are really lucky in that you had your source in your family. >> yes, lucky and not so lucky. my father was a funny sort because when i first found him, he disappeared from my life when i was 10 and i didn't know anything about the marijuana. i knew my parents were hippies and there were rumors of marijuana. >> so the party in the caribbean was when you were 10? >> that was when i was six but in between six and 10 my father went in search of the high that wasn't dealing. he became an ethic user himself. not of marijuana. many drug dealers self-destruct in so-called retirement but i think he was looking for self-destruction. all the escort services and miami refused in business. it was a pretty big flameout. when i was 10 was one of reagan's task force is caught up with one of my dad's rings. incredible melodrama. my stepfather told my father to high tail it out of the state. an unusual wrap up. on the one hand he was a great source because he's my father and he was willing to come in but on the other hand he's my father so he is not willing to go into the -- all the details. at first i had to poke them with a stick to tell me all the stuff. i'm interested in young. was he somebody who immediately caught in to the idea of being world-famous? >> well yes if you had offered him that option he would have certainly snapped it right out. i applaud george for $1200. >> better quickly explain that. [laughter] >> well, it's all very logical. there was a writer for "rolling stone" howard cohen. howard khan was pretty well-known back in the 80s. he wrote that karen silkwood book. he wrote a wonderful piece and a book that's not as well-known on his father's farm in michigan. but he had found george and george was testifying against carlos later in the late 80s. he was going to do george's story. george was very accessible. in the middle of this the iran-contra scandal erupted and howard wanted to do blow. he was so outraged. he wanted to do a book on morality. so here he had george. george had written his own sto story. a small part of it was true. it was this big fat manuscript that have a lot of stuff in it. so he was starting with that and but then he was seized with this vision of morality in the government. that was the time so his agent was my agent. so he called my agent and said well i've got to do this story and i've got george here. is there anybody that might be ingested. sarah called me up and so i don't know. george is living on the cape. he had gotten free of prison. he had gotten his deal for testifying against carlos. he was free. there was a woman who would take care of his two pack a day camel habits plus twos tours a day. that was never with george when he did not have a bottle of doers that day. i went out to see him and we got along fine. he's a very gregarious. the movie doesn't paint him anywhere near as gregarious and funny as he is. he's a person when it comes into the room everybody turns and says george is here. so we got along well and so i told my agent that yes i will take them over. we wrote a book proposal and it was successful so we paid howard cohen $1200. >> any idea how howard cohen feels about the movie? >> i've talked to him since. he wished me very well. he never wrote his book. he was very gracious. i made a lot of them he said so i didn't feel bad. but these guys are very easy to approach. so i had to make a deal with george. being a journalism professor i'm always challenged on making deals with the people you write about. you are partnering with them. and as a matter of fact when the book came out there were several reviewers, one in particular wrote the "boston globe" very angry that there was a deal. that i gave george money, gave him $100 a day plus expenses for all the time he was with me. he had a part of the movie. we didn't know there was a movie but i had them all signed up. so i think they reviewers said you know the guy is a reporter. why don't you tell your students at columbia about paying for stories and doesn't that compromise the whole thing and what you do about that? i said you're absolutely correct. it compromises the whole situation and here's how i deal with it. one, if there is no other way to get the story and you want to do the story than you would pay. .. then pablo came out. there was this -- well, he is talking to george. this guy who delivered a new presence who has been an informer. in the polls of his 45 and should some in the head. george said at that point he felt the -- told petra and i would wait here. i couldn't check that. there was no new way i could find out. it certainly seemed in character but. so that is the only thing. so that was the -- i wrote about it. because i wanted to do it. i tried to check everything. it certainly is a constant subject for discussion. >> of the way i got around the problem of having many sources, all of whom were happily sideways during the years in question was to take my father's point of view as the one i would go with it but i went with the written record followed by my father's memory. if he didn't remember and there was no written record at what with the most plausible. bjorn so a great person to have here tonight. his character is someone who my father would have looked down upon quite dramatically george began as of marijuana smuggler and transition to cocaine. and this was something that most people did because to make money you could make a million dollars of what you could fit into a backpack. it was like smuggling pixie dust with marijuana to make that same million dollars you needed a ton of extremely pungent plan matter. it was like smuggling elephants into the country. and so to stick with that when you had this very easy source of revenue on the side you had to be passionate about what you were doing in your head to look down on cocaine. so the defining characteristic of this particular character i tried to highlight and that my debt represents, the defining characteristic is marijuana is peace and love. we are parents to find the government that has a silly prohibition. cocaine, that is the sole killer. we will bring that into the country. we will use it like bags of flour. [laughter] >> honestly. one line at a time. that's for sure. >> as soon as he heard about it. i mean, speak the herbalists launcher, you know. marijuana when, you get into trouble with the judge once. he could not see what the problem was. transporting of plant across an imaginary geographical line. but he was -- i remember him saying to my he went and he got caught for marijuana. his mother turned amend the. for sure. i talked to the fbi agent who arrested him 1972. and george b., part of his -- interested, the psychodrama of his life. i mean, i identified with it. at a lot of similarities. a father was use the denigrated by the mother. the father was raised upper cut in george's eyes as a loser. he could not make it in the oil business. the mother, this is outside of boston. the ad kneels in boston were quite prominent. there was nobody here old enough to remember. the preface clubs was donna kneele. you were raised in the 40's and 50's's. that is what he turned on the morning for radio city and to seek the she was fooled by him. so she played him his whole life. and she which talked to george as the paradigm of success, his father's brother who was a commander in the navy, an officer. "would put his sword over the fireplace. would put dollar bills on the christmas tree and give everybody -- end of these elaborate presents. at the airport. they thought he was george. the cocaine smuggler. he wasn't. he was the august commander, retired commander. so i asked the fbi returned in george, who call to. was it the mother. he said, no, not directly. so the mother called the article called the fbi. that is the way i interpreted that. >> a lot of confusion in the life of these drug dealers, particularly the big ones. people in the media during the 70's and 80's were very interested in covering drug smugglers. running operations that were of military precision. that narrative camino, runways and militia. they have in tow equipment. when they are the equal to the american military. journalists love the story. the american government loves the store because the american government is using a ridiculous amount of technology to pursue these individuals. one clip by keeping my desk at work from 1982. the news brief. and says of a boat carrying a small rock o'hara warcraft colluded coastguard and navy destroyer and four jet fighters for 27 hours on fried apply. can you imagine that? so and be when that person gets caught they got that far. in florida so many bills of marijuana got tossed overboard as a result of idiocy, that captain john bad and the pursuit of the cops. people would reel them in with rods and get skirt grouper. cops seldom. >> so when you were doing your boat you would go and answer to your father in a room? >> well, we went on a little road trip. my father felt quite hard and ended up the petitioner in cambridge. he went to prison for marijuana smuggling but never face charges for tax fraud. he still is saw the social security for is front companies. so he lives in public housing in boston and your social security check the increase savings of as on an unfunded some of its troops. we went to miami, new york, check topic. it was entertaining because he had to cut he conducted himself like a guy with $5,000 in a spoof. he walked through the palace hotel and the possibility of the place. but he was wearing of thrift store polo shirt with blue of the sludge in the front. had a happy face sweat stained. wearing gloves. his toes littler exhibit from an archeological dig. everyone is polish. he has more presence than any of them because he is operating in the realm of memory. as one moment in particular were rare at the plaza. cahuenga always trying to cool their heels from walking in central park. applause a dozen like that. they immediately give you a menu n.y.u. to order a $6 diet coke or get out. they did that to us. my father immediately west the menu back to the waiter and said , we won't be having any today. jenny looked down the nose of the week and a waiter skirting. then there was another. one of my father's favorite hotels in new york city was the park hotel overlooking one of the last private green spaces in the city on the east side lower east side. end he went in there and it had just undergone a quarter billion dollars overall. it did everything. and the new york times reviewed it and said it was absolutely grand. my father walks around like it was a ruined car. and then as we're walking out he looks at the chandelier and gives it the middle finger. that isn't real crystal. it turns out he was right. it was cast resin. he knows his chandeliers. >> you were looking your father was so soft george was hard to travel with. he was a football player. big shoulders. this ready beatles hair cut. just hung down he usually had a brown leather jacket. so he looked like something, somebody who should be under arrest. plessey had this incredible alcohol addiction. he had stopped cocaine. he never took any cocaine. he never really had the interest scotch was his best friend. so our deal was the once he started drinking scotch he was just impossible. he would get belligerent. he would get stupid. he would -- that he would get threatening to strangers. so i made a deal with him that he could drink beer. we're going to do this, this is going to be a famous book and movie making millions. you're going to drink beer. that said. he could drink 10,000 years. >> are you covering his expenses ? >> in for a nickel and for a dime. and for a diamond for dollar. yap. i covered everything. so he could drink beer all day long. the moment he started belly of to the barn. double doors water back. he talked in this crowley voice. doubly threatening. i knew that the day was over. but we at that point had not eaten anything but when we traveled all over. we had not eaten anything, whether it was down in the bahamas of florida are mexico are california. the cape, where real went. so he would start. we would pick up a restaurant. we would go into the restaurant. by now and george had maybe three or four double dewars water back please the maitre d, you know, some of this one out in a minute. this guy was trouble. he approached george. george said, excuse me sir. we are all for their beautiful. all these have the tables. you're gonna let me in here or i will reduce is poised to matchsticks. and so we get kicked out. and we would have to go to some little chinese restaurant somewhere in some alleyway. i started going to restaurants earlier. i would not tell georgia was going. i would at least try to get the bread tray down before george bush showed up. a major deal would go like this and we get kicked out. so he was -- and remember a particular wanted to get in. he was put in prison in mexico enduring go. this was an interesting experience because being in a mexican prison -- i have done a lot of work for the ford foundation. and i was interested in prisons. i had never been in a mexican prison. they are supposed to be horrendous. so are called the award. this guy was there. very agreeable. come on up. so we're were going up the coast and george with his everlasting good judgment got thirsty and we had to stop by the road. there were some kids selling this really evil looking fluids. and george, 15 minutes later, i don't feel so good. so he passed out. drives up to the rego. i really wanted jurors there. turnout these mexican prisons are kind of interesting
the states that -- >> so is situate it says any group that doesn't get the benefit, a group that is nonpregnant, then pregnant people are -- any group at all? >> if you have a policy, i'm not sure what one would look like that singled out pregnant employees plus one other employee, my guess is -- >> what category of employs? >> a policy that is at issue here distinguishes on the job versus off the job injuries. that's a distinction that is echoed in state and federal law. that's a far cry from the policy that singles out pregnant women. >> singling out is in the first -- >> or targeting or otherwise primarily disadvantaging. that distinction tracks what workers comp requires, which is payment for employees were injured on the job, and many employers, including the u.s. postal service have found it advantageous to provide light-duty accommodations to their employees can be at work while they are rehabilitating and provide some productive work for the company. that distinction is as legitimate as you could get. i see my time is up, your honor. >> thank you counsel. mr. bagenstos, you have four minutes remaining. >> thank you, thank you. i'd like to begin if they could with the facts because justice alito did ask and just resorted to disagree with ups's assertion here. in this case was on summary judgment a ups does point directly to some general statements the new record by ups managers they never authorize these accommodations. that's a factual dispute that has to go to trial. >> you really think that you can provide at trial that if somebody is injured in a wreck reflecting over the weekend that they get light-duty but a pregnant woman does not make? >> if someone is injured over the weekend in way that leads them to be beauty decertified, yes. the ups manager so testament about his sports injury. so yes we think so. the second when i estimate is about what the two clauses to come and i think this is very important. the first clause of the pda as this court has said in newport news and calfed overturns the reasoning in general electric versus google. what the for clause says is where gilbert said look, this commission is some pregnancy isn't sexist omission because of pregnant women a nonpregnant person, that's wrong instead because of pregnancy is because of sex definitionally. that's not what the second clause does. the second clause as this court said in newport news and calfed goes further no rules holding. justice kagan was correct in describing the facts of gilbert that the gilbert holding would not be overturned under ups is reading because they gilbert policy, the one thing we know that congress meant to say was illegal, the gilbert policy itself acted it do lines in pregnancy neutral ways. it's a together off the job injury or accident defined us off the job illness or accident defined as an accidental injury then you get a disability benefits. pregnancy isn't an illness and isn't an accident in the sense of an accidental injury. we know congress was trying to do because congress said it and this court has said come is to overturn the holding to ups's rule simply revises the rule at issue in gilbert. if i might return to the point justice breyer has made a couple times at various points in the argument. >> should i think the reverse. the second sentence is what does that. the second sentence says you don't worry about whether it's between sexes did you worry about whether the same class of people people who are injured off duty, are being treated differently when they have the same ability to work. >> well i think, justice sotomayor, the first clause says you don't worry about whether they are the same sex or not. you don't look at -- >> no, you do have to worry about it because it still has to be sex determination. >> the first clause defines pregnancy this commission as sextus commission. that is because of sex. that's overturning the gilbert reasoning coming from geduldig that pregnancy this commission isn't the sex discrimination. and i think under ups's rule it wouldn't do that. on justice breyer's question, basically how do we deal with a world where the simply the treats to different groups of people who are nonpregnant particularly? does shall be treated the same name shall be treated the same as those who get a better deal for those who get the worst deal? tessa stansbury and justice kagan articulated this well, that their position really would give least favored nation status to pregnant workers. we know that can't be something that congress intended. we know that if our because of what general verrilli said that that's not how anti-discrimination law works. the fact that someone else was discriminate against doesn't mean i lose. justice alito's opinion for the third circuit articulate a single. we know that because the purpose of this statute is to say to employers, you have to treat pregnant workers as just as valued employees as anybody else, and if you think it's valuable to keep these employees on the job you're injured on the job because they keep valuable knowledge within the company, do that for pregnant women. thank you. >> thank you counsel. the case is submitted. >> s. 2014 trust to close would like to know what you thought that top start of the year was. log on to her facebook page two leader thoughts and try to get to your responses on the air to update today. lawmakers return next week to start the 114th congress but they will gaveling in on tuesday at noon eastern. we will see the swearing-in of members and election for house speaker but you can watch the house live on c-span and the senate live on c-span2. with the new congress to let the best access to the most extensive coverage anywhere. track the gop as it leads on capitol hill and have your say as events unfold on tv radio and the web. the new congress will start off the air with 247 house republicans, the largest uk majority since the 1928 elections. the we 188 democrats. republican conference michael graham says he will resign effective january 5 after pleading guilty to tax evasion, and the senate with republicans now in the majority of 54 republicans, 44 democrats and to independence. bernie sanders of vermont and angus king of maine were expected talks with the democrats. there will be over 101 and caucus for the first time, 84 in the house with 22 republicans 62 democrats and 20 in the senate, the same as in the last congress with six republicans and 14 democrats. it would be a record six republican women senators. >> new year's day on the c-span networks pick your our some of our featured programs. >> the commission of the national hockey league and washington capitals owner ted leonsis weasley sat down for a conversation about the future of the nhl. they talk about the intersection of technology and sports, the nhl's annual winter classic game which takes place tomorrow and other issues including efforts to bring the olympic games to the nation's capital. this is from the national press club. it's about one hour. >> good afternoon and welcome. my name is myron belkind i'm an adjunct professor at the george washington university school of media and public affairs former international. chief with the associate press and the 107th president of the national press club. the national press club is a world leading professional organization for journalists committed to our professions future to our programming with events such as this while fostering a free press worldwide. for more information about the national press club please visit our website at press.org. on behalf of our members worldwide, i'd like to welcome our speakers and those of you attending today's event. our head table includes guest of our speakers as well as working journalists to our club members. so if you hear applause in august i note that members of the general public are attending so it is not necessarily evidence of the lack of journalistic objectivity. i would also like to welcome our c-span and public radio audiences. you can follow the action on twitter using the hashtag npc lunch. after our guest speech concludes will have a question and answer period. i will ask as many questions as time permits. now it's time to it is our head table guests. i like each of you to stand briefly as your name is introduced. from your right john, coach of the national press club division champion softball team who also happens to be a reporter. jennifer berlin, deputy political director. jonathan, washington correspondent for the new jersey advanced media reporter, former national press club president and a former coach of the championship winning national press club softball team. [laughter] jason anthony strategic partner at clear channel and a member of the national press club's broadcast committee. pat host, defense daily and speaker committee member who helped organize today's event. i will skip over our guest of honor while the introduced the rest of the head table, gary washington bureau chief of the buffalo news, chair of the speakers committee and a former national press club president. kevin, u.s. navy retired and the other speaker committee member who helped organize today's event. frank brown, national hockey league vice president for media relations and a guest of gary bettman. bob cartman -- bob cartman, freelance writer and head of carden communications. ann ludwig, national association of home builders come into mitigation manager and frank, a member of the national press club newsmakers committee, and a hockey referee for the past 25 years. [applause] >> national hockey league commissioner gary bettman and washing capitals owner ted leonsis are with us today to face off and speak about the state of the national hockey league, the upcoming winter classic which will be in d.c. for the first time. mr. bettman has been the nhl commissioner for two decades. under his leadership and nhl revenue has expanded from $400 million, to more than $3 billion. he led the expansion into nhl's national and global reach with six teams added during his tenure, bringing the total in the nhl to 30. just navigate the waters of three labor lockouts and include the cancellation of the 24-five season. mr. leonsis is ceo of monumental sports and entertainment which operates a washington capitals the washington wizards in the nba, washington mystics in the wnba, and the verizon center. psl other business interests and he's a leader in the d.c. philanthropic community supporting charities with an emphasis on military families. we are interested to hear details of our guests, details from our guests that they can cheer about the winter classic on january 1 when the chicago blackhawks take on the washington capitals at the washington nationals stadium. of course we're also interested in hearing about other issues facing the nhl and professional sports in general. we are very pleased that our guests have brought with them the stanley cup, which one day perhaps will reside in washington for longer -- [applause] -- which one day we hope will reside in washington for longer than the length of this luncheon. [laughter] please join me in welcoming gary bettman and ted leonsis to the national press club. and they will have come instead of our traditional format of one speaker talking until 1:30, they will have a conversation between them. and then at 1:30 we'll store the q&a. mr. leonsis and ted leonsis the podium, the chairs are yours. >> thank you very much. i'm gary. that's dead. so there's no confusion to actually want to give a shout out to the canadian ambassador to the united states ambassador to work. it's great to have you here. [applause] happens be a big fan of hockey and was are interested in the jets return to winnipeg. so it's good to have you. ted, let's talk for a second about what the stanley cup means to an owner in the nhl. and without attempting to embarrass you we had a discussion about where we sat to you would be further away from the cup at this point in time. [laughter] what goes through your mind? and i think on your 100 bucket list, winning the cup is one of it. what does it mean when you're in order and you're thinking about the cup? >> i think it creates lifelong memories for every member of the community, to be able to craft and build the winning sports team and win a championship it's a bit of immortality for people. i'm involved in lots of businesses. but there's really no higher calling than that to have that collective psyche of all of the people in your team there to in the palm of your hands, also no bigger risk and danger of when you disappoint people on that. because scratch any individual, but in especially a sports crazed town and you'll find an expert that can do it better than you. so i'm going to continue to try as far as i can with the caps with the wizards come with the mystics, to make a team that is good as a community we serve, and bring a championship here to d.c. [applause] >> let's take a step back. you bought the capitals in 1999. juice up legally acquired the wizards and the verizon center. in 1998-99, or even before that what was going through your mind when you said i want to own a sports team. i want to own the capitals. i want to be a hockey owner? >> well, i have made i had a life reckoning when i was a young person and ended up making a life list things to do before i died. and it was amazing. looking back at how money have to do with sports. i grew up like sports the commission in the nhl and we just dedicated a rink in the southeast part of our community ward six. and it just reminded me as a young man of leaving school at 3:00 and then going and playing roller hockey or basketball. it became so central to the person i became, competitive, wanted to be part of teams trying to accomplish things collectively. and so sports played a big role in my life. and i wrote down own a sports team, win a championship as a hockey player. and all of a sudden you have the opportunity to do that. and that initially passed when dick patrick approached me to buy the caps. i was president of america online, married. i had young children. body was a lot of money. i thought it was a lot of work. i frankly didn't want the notoriety and the spotlight at that would be a tough environment, because i knew what i would get into in running a public trust. i went home that night and my wife said, what's new? i said i met this guy. he's trying to sell me a hockey team. she said, what do you say? i said i passed. i couldn't do it. i gave her the reasons. right before we went to bed she said, what if you get 99 of the 101 things done before you die? how would you feel? [laughter] well i love you. i've got to buy the team. and so it's been a family endeavor, family labor of love. commissioner has been great in teaching us how to do it. and is really funny. as an owner, we take stupid pills. >> no. really? >> we think because you've been moderately successful in one field that you know what you're doing instantly and sports. and now that i've been in gross boards were longtime, i figured. we laugh together. here comes the new owner. i know what he's going to say but i know what he's going to spin. i know what is going to do. this time it's going to be different. and so the leagues are very very responsible for creating an environment where you cannot do a lot of harm, but you can do a lot of good. and i'm very grateful to gary for coming here today. but i'm really grateful not only for the guidance what he's done with the league, but he gifted the winter classic to d.c. this has been considered a traditional hockey market. we have been working night and day to craft a great team to build youth hockey, to kind of connect with the consciousness of the community, to make them fall in love with hockey. and we've been fortunate. we have a good team. we have superstar players. we sell out every game. and when i saw the winter classic, very first one on television, and we can talk about the relationship, i literally sent an e-mail to gary, before the puck dropped. and i said, i think i'm in love. [laughter] this is the greatest visual i have ever seen on television. it looked like a snow globe. and to see so many people outdoors at a hockey game, and i pretty much spent the next several years, every day saying, now don't forget about washington. >> actually, i don't know that i would've called it a gift. it's like the kid who for christmas, gives his parents his list everyday for four years. [laughter] and is going to throw a temper tantrum if he doesn't get -- no. that's an overstatement. ted, as you know from following the wizards and the caps, is a passionate owner. he says it's stupid pills. i think you're passionate when you first come in to buy team, there's something that drives you in ways that you wouldn't have any of the business. because no matter what of the business you buy, you're never as passionate as buying a sports team. so what's it like they what's it like day-to-day being an owner? how high do you get on the wins? how low do you get on the lowest? and does it affect you in ways you never imagined? >> it can be wearing. they can be joyful. the social responsibility of owning these teams, because they are small businesses i've run really big businesses. and employ hundreds of thousands of people, and 25000 people at aol, and companies that go public and create a lot of valley. and you own a sports team, and there are hundreds of millions of dollars. and we employ hundreds of people. yet, because of the media, i mean i'm here for the press club, i could come to the press club like weekly, i think, you would have it because i own sports teams. when i was president of aol wouldn't give me a sniff. [laughter] i mean i think that kind of -- right? i mean we would launch a new piece of software that we do $4 billion in revenues in its first year, and you'd get like a write up like this in the "washington post." and we trade a third line player, and there's a columnist writing about it. it's news and ap. and so sports has become such a defining element in all businesses. when you look critically at the demography of our country, 65% of our population is now co-i deleted around 32 big cities. and that phenomenon continues. it's one of the reasons that d.c. has become such a magnificent place to work. great kids come to our universities. they are introduced to upgrade the city is. they want to stay here. they get jobs. bip stacy. the innovation stays here, and it starts to feed upon itself. there's very few iconic institutions that define a major metro area. it's universities. got georgetown, george washington american, catholic maryland, i meet on and on with unbelievable universities. it's iconic real estate. no one has iconic real estate like washington, d.c. the lincoln monument. i mean just go down the mall it's breathtaking. it's public space. manhattan was unlivable. watch gangs of new york if you want a reintroduction to a manhattan was like until they built central park. we've got the most iconic gathering space. the "i have a dream" speech was delivered here. you know, for my kids it was walking from virginia because they closed the bridge to go to the first inauguration of president obama, 5 million people on the mall. public space. fourth is a defining business community. silicon valley, hollywood, wall street, this was the federal city where we were created to be the people city. and then last its sports teams. you close your eyes and think chicago, you will think of black or the cubs. you think boston. you think montréal, you think of the canadians. and so here we have the most important economic and social centers. and sports teams played this pivotal, defining role. that responsibility can be daunting, because they can only be one team that wins, right. and that means there's 29 losers every year. i mean it's true. and business is like that. i mean you can take a company public and create billions of dollars of value and wealth and have the number two or number three market share and your success, right? you can launch a product that's as good have some features that are better and your success. in sports, you lose the seventh game of the stanley cup, in overtime, and you're the loser right? [laughter] >> talking about cities and economics, one of my pet peeves is you get these academic economists who will tell you that sports teams don't have an economic impact. and arenas that publicly financed have no economic impact. i happen to think that's absurd. talk about the verizon center formally the mci center and whether or not it had an impact on washington, d.c. >> well, it's had a defining impact on washington, d.c. and mr. poland was a visionary, very brave. he also you know structured a deal that was not a great deal with the city but it led the way for the city to see how great the economic impact would be. and that's why we have nationals park and the baseball team. but basically, when i went to georgetown university as a student i was told, enjoy the campus, enjoy georgetown, go to the mall. whatever you do, do not go anywhere near 10th street. 10th street was at the bookstores, drug dealing, prostitution. now it's the shakespeare theatre and the national portrait gallery and rosa mexicana. .. into the community and guess what, they come into washington and it's become a living infomercial about dc. no one was coming because they were afraid of the neighborhood and someone finally came to the game and said this is nice. there is lazy thinking and reporting everywhere not that the media would ever do anything so it's unsafe. downtown can be unsafe. washington is the safest city in the world. [applause] we held a concert for half a million people and game for 20,000 people and not an incident was reported mostly because we have nice people but as everyone kind of knows there's probably more cameras than any other place on earth. they show up and we have the most phd of any community in the world. we have the most fiber and bandwidth of any community in the world and speak the most languages. 170 languages are spoken in dc. 20% of the population is foreign-born and almost 80,000 people have moved back into the city. they are all moving back. so just go around the nationals park. there are more cranes than any city on earth. that is happening here. this is the greatest place and i think the first pebble that was thrown into this pond was the belief that downtown can be thriving and be a place for the creative class and that is a central role that we play in the economy. >> you touched on where you really made your money is in technology. talk about this point in time of technology, sports what people are hearing about and why you started the monumental network. >> technology like oxygen. we are living in this world where these phenomenon are faster better, cheaper and the network effect it's the more productive that we become and those are the two self evident. theory is that our generation are privy to so because of that there is more technology being introduced on an annual basis van in the 50 years previous. i worked my first computer at georgetown university in 1876 euros one computer on campus, a mainframe computer in the registrar's office. my iphone six has more computing power. that's unbeatable progress. we have 6 million mobile subscribers around the world in a 3 million people connected to the web. we have less than 300 million. less than 10% of the world's internet traffic. so we cannot claim that any more as the resource and because the internet is so ubiquitous and available it will activate creative classes all around the world. that is what we imagine. it is being transformed quickly by technology. obviously we have a lot of work that's going on in being able to algorithmically studied the performance of the players and how we market the teams and deliver information and the algorithms rule teaching math and mandarin is probably the two important subjects. the icu right now that everything is an internet device. you've got your fit that on. i counted almost 1500 steps today. >> i ate as that many calories. [laughter] so i do see that we will be big data generating machines or the vision of what we see someone interviewed me outside in the hallway. so the watch the wallet, it's all going to be connected and wired. the way they did letter information is changing dramatically. in the 6 billion homes to pay for some kind of mobile subscription. it's a huge business to be connected to television. and sports is proving to be the only programming on pay television that can convenient real-time large audiences of people and that is counter to if you ask somebody what was more valuable produced television or sports i saw this fight years ago my daughter was a freshman in college and she came home with some girlfriends and they would've been much -- binge watch gossip girls. all four seasons. i said what network was this on and she said apple tv. [laughter] didn't know. was paying $1.99 to watch what was on free television on the cw so the sports in real-time had an unbelievable power and it's become the economic driver. think eight of the top ten shows where nba and nfl shows helped launch a cable network with nhl and nbc sports. let's go on to how important the programming is. so we want to bring that content around the world. we hear that in the over-the-top networks being able to deliver content programming there probably won't be live games. you should be able to see highlights and interviews communicate. if you are in india or china or russia there's a whole generation right now of young people who may not get cable. i have two children through both just graduated college. neither one of them for the last ten years has had a home phone number. they don't have a home number. can you imagine our generation? when my son went to college she didn't get local cable. he said i have my computer, you have cable. i'm not sure that i need to pay those dollars. and they talk about cord cutters the next generation will be never on. they will never have subscribed to a newspaper. they are following me here today and i agreed to let them do it. i would read every word of it. my son is in subscribed to any magazine. he's never filled out one of those cards. most of it is free. so there's going to be a whole generation. i get as much as i can for free and very selectively only pay for things that i see value in. >> i think our guests of honor for the format of conversation. you have a future career as an interviewer. [applause] first set of questions to conclude by 2:00. how did the national hockey league choose and where do you see the future games being held? >> a smart answer would be we throw darts. the latter is closer to the truth. we look to the opportunistic. we started this in buffalo with a notion that maybe it would work and then once it did we started looking for what would be the next place that would build upon it that would continue to grow as an institution and then as we got more and more comfortable building it as an event we decided we could try things that some people thought would be crazy. last year we did an outdoor game in los angeles and it was great for us to come to the nation's capital. there is a fan base built through the organization and the use of social media and the commitment to the community that made us comfortable that selling out the venue would be no problem and a second it would have an impact on the community that we thought would be not just positive for what should law shouldn't nbc that would reflect well on the leave and we felt the critical mass was there every city and every club wants one. even in florida or arizona. why can't we have one? >> we try to move it around and that is does the same with the all-star draft. he also promised me we would never have weather like we did this morning when we were dedicating the legacy. but we thought what better place at this time in the genesis of the outdoor games than to be here and bring in the blackhawks which is a great team. we think there is no better way for us to start in 2015 >> we have a question from the representative of new jersey. i need to know whether or not i'm going to be canceling my subscription. we've already seen the classic at the stadium. we played to outdoor games last winter in new jersey metropolitan area. we are going to be moving things around before we go back to a place that we've been. we've been getting many expressions of interest by metlife stadium at least for the time being hasn't played in the fact the islanders the rangers and the devils. playing in new york and jersey is a unique situation because of the three clubs. if we had only played one game, the team that was excluded said he would have driven us out of business, so we had to play two games to make sure that everybody was included but i have a lot of other teams that won the game and other stadiums before we could come back. >> clearly your success as commissioner is in the fact that there seems to be interested in other cities that want the nhl team. i have a general question and then a few specific questions on the specific cities. and expect you to announce that the national it at the national press club. >> okay. >> what is your forecast on the prospect of future expansion having the equal number of teams in the eastern and western conference's? >> let me take that into pieces. i try not to be in the prognostication business. i don't like guessing about things. yes i'm charged with leadership and vision, but we know how often they are right. we are probably stronger as the league. the franchises are stronger as a group than ever before. the ownership group is the strongest it's ever been. and as a result, we are getting expressions of interest in the number of places that don't have franchises. it's gratifying. it's also why i think they help the franchises they are on a dalia basis. we are listening that but we are not doing anything about it. we are letting people walk and we are listening to the expressions of interest. yes we have 16 teams in the east and 14 of another but that was by virtue of a realignment we did a couple of years ago to try to fix columbus and detroit columbus and their inception, detroit for more than 20 years were in the west and. they made it very difficult for their travel and also made it difficult for their fans when they went on the road and have to play games on television back because if they were on the west coast was late at night. we had minnesota in the northwest. they wanted to be in the central time zone. dallas was in the pacific. they wanted to be in the central. we realized the only way we could do that was to have 16 in east and 14 in the west. we are scheduling around that. we don't think it is a problem however we do understand that there are some people who do but we are not going to expand just for symmetry. it's not whether or not you bring a new partner or city. obviously if we are going to expand and if somebody wanted to team in the east it would make it more complicated to say the least because 17 of 18 of the east and 14 in the west exacerbates what some people perceived to be a problem. since we are not in the formal expansion right now. >> i don't expect you to give the pros and cons about the specific cities to let you know that request came from persons who want to know about the possibilities of a threat in portland or oklahoma or in the hometown of cleveland ohio where i grew up. if you want to announce that. >> seattle has expressed an interest before the nba went to oklahoma they tried to get in and a chill -- nhl franchise. they've given solicitations of interest. we are just listening. >> i was waiting for the city question. he actually was helpful getting the team back after they left in the '90s. >> one or two more and then we will move over. what are the challenges working with the players union and will it be subjected? >> we don't like walkouts. it's not a matter of pride that we have had some fundamental problems that have to be addressed and if you don't get the cooperation you need, the collective bargaining for the union and you are prepared to do what needs to be done in order to get to a place you can make the business of the game healthy and you sometimes have to go through those. we've had issues relating to the union. we think that it went through four or five executive directors but there were things that have to be changed and i get asked the question of what was it worth it and i never like to say that it was worth it because that makes it sound on some level like i was happy to go through it. every successive year has never been healthier or bigger or more popular than the game on the ice has never been better. from the standpoint how do you view the work stoppages and we couldn't have gotten through it and achieve the objectives that we set out to achieve. >> while the commissioner was speaking i noticed there was a light coat. [laughter] you will probably get e-mails from about 30 people saying you have a light out. [laughter] they deserve an opportunity to hope and dream their team can be competitive. the system that has been implemented now. they are thinking they can make the playoffs and we have seen and believe in 15 spots and they end up winning the cup that year so they think about the system for the fans that if you are a really big market you can't outspend someone in the small-market. so you come to the sprint for the playoffs. we missed the playoffs by three points. we should have made the playoffs they want to be on winning teams and i've looked at others that don't have a system like that. we are going to spend $40 in the payroll and they will spend $200 million in payroll. and they develop and get good and it will go to another market. so what happens the scar tissue built up in the fan base because they feel disadvantaged. they don't want to fall in love with the young player. the day that the washington capitals took off is when he became this great player and he announced i want to stay in washington, in washington, d.c. and we signed a 13 year contract. i honestly bb that the fan base says we can believe, become trust that he's not going to a big market or canadian team. it was a verification that this was a great place and we could have a great team. i like the system for the benefit of the fan. it starts to put an emphasis on how good the leader and manager is because it can't outspend everybody. you have a good system, you have to draft and develop well and manage the cap which makes it even more fun to manage. i paid everybody during all of the work stoppages. it's very painful. we don't have to pay the mortgage on the building now. but eventually where it hurts the most is that advance low and that is the great thing about the sports teams the other day we were a little late and she said what time does the game start. we set it starts at the same time. it's not like i'm going to call over and say running late. but there is a trust that is embedded in that. it ends that weekend at the playoffs begin this week. you feel terrible for the fans, for the workers offered the players. so when you make that decision it's a really difficult decision and you have to make sure that you come out of it as much as stronger. they've never been stronger. the competitiveness has never been better. the quality of play has never been better and i think a lot of that comes from the core deliverable that all teams can be competitive. >> i will ask you a few questions now. >> we are going to switch the topic. you are involved in the efforts to bring the olympics to washington d.c. in 2024. and how did they change the region. with the mission it would be mission based projects that we can rally around. we just came back from a week overseas and many organizations people represent partially responsible for how the world sees us. we watch sky tv and the tv shows you would think everyone has ebola and every city is closed down because of riots and there is a war going on in america. that is the imagery that is basically being discovered to the world and every media outlet has outlines the talk about the dysfunction of washington d.c. how broken america is and how dysfunctional dc is and we live here in washington this is the greatest city in the world and doing something like the own pics our chair man is here and we have an opportunity to accomplish a lot. on the small level we can reimagine the city. when i was in london last week i got goosebumps seeing the area around the verizon center were totally transformed by the open back -- the olympic games. if you made a profit on the games they created a community where public transportation united a disconnected part of the city. they turned the village into a link on how housing. the data centers and the fiber that was played created supplicant roundabouts that is now a thriving number one job creator for the adventure capital technical center. we can deal with scar tissue and a birth defect that we have been washington, d.c. that we haven't been able to embrace and go across and make the community a part of us for the world we are in desperate need to show a united front that we stand for something good. and honestly nothing is more transformative. do you believe in miracles? yes. that is representative of the follow-up question. it is a sport and the cost of what was the cost and how could it be nhl and others help get involved in the further diversified makeup of the players in the nhl? >> they've done an unbelievably good job and a lot of times it's not front-page news to talk about the commissioner's work with black colleges and scholarship funds. why would you want to write about that? you would move to the rain and the cold and i will be honest with you i'm disappointed but i am disappointed but not a senior city official was there. they give them kids that will have that for decades and we train kids and there is a hall of fame player and a sports teams we really are in pursuit. we've kept the capitals ice packs and we give 1200 hours a year. i won't be disingenuous. it's the right thing to do but it's also good business. introducing people across all economic strata. it's the smart business. they are the next great defenseman. number one or number three pick in the draft of couple of years ago there was a basketball player that was popeye jones and they got treated while he was in dallas and there were blinks that were being built and they started to play ice hockey and he could end up being one of the best defense men in the league. we were very active. >> fact is we spend millions of dollars in support which is in the grassroots organization that manages hockey across the united states and we have programs and a number of disadvantaged inner-city programs and whether it is on harlem in new york and he's the owner that has taken over from the city all that had been dilapidated and either shut down or was about to be shut down and for me this may not make anyone happy in terms of the bottom line, but in the case of the broad objectives it's a vehicle for children to learn life lessons pa good student hard work, team work diligent fitness, getting the education that you need so you can do anything else. if we can get young people involved by using hockey is will be great if they can become fans and there will be the amazing if they can become nhl players but it's not as important as getting back to the community by making the kids to be in a position to go to college and do things with their life they never would have had an opportunity to do. [applause] you are having a conversation and i think that you deserve a special round of applause. [applause] before asking the last question since you would like to received the last question which is a two-parter but i would like to present you with a press club mug. you both deserve it. [applause] >> before i ask the asked the last question i would like to ask you one that you just referred to. the last time you spoke here the capitals were having success in the regular season and you predicted the stanley cup championship we have on the record in our archives. so why hasn't it happened? a >> there are 291 to make sure that doesn't happen. it's very humbling to realize that ultimately the failures and one success, but the great thing about sports is that you get to try it again and keep making investments. it's hard-working enough energetic enough, investment oriented enough. eventually we will get through it. >> as a successful owner of the two professional sports teams, what advice can you offer. the second part should the washington redskins change their names why or why not? >> i've been very consistent with my answer. i have great empathy for the team and they've done things well in light of miserable failures and i've done things i'm not proud of and haven't executed well on and my plate is full and i would never appreciate another talking about what you're doing and i don't think it's appropriate for me to address anything. [applause] >> we are out of time which often happens at sports events i want to thank the guests for being here today and sharing the podium together to read we are adjourned. thank you very much. a look at college athletics from a the recent addition of washington journal. this runs just over 50 minutes. today we are taking a look looking a at college athletic programs and joining us in the discussion usa athlet today sports projicects reporter steve berkowitz. college athletics. college how much of the program itselfmuch of i makes up the larger part of thethe college university and what is the role that they r play clicks. termsf the co?es of >> it is a larger piece but in terms of the publicity is viewed in college of what extent in high air at a generally generally a sort of being a front porch for the university in terms of the ways that the universities get their name out there and get the message out there and just sort of the way people interact with colleges generally through the athletic in large part in the march wave through the programs. >> host: how many students are involved in the college athletics? >> guest: in the >> guest: into broad-based it is broad-based citizen but, the across all three divisions. it's somewhere between 450 to 470,000 who are playing sports within the division number one in the group of the schools involved in basketball tournament. >> host: we are told eight out of ten earned a bachelor's degrees and 35 presented will go on to post graduate degrees. are there issues for those participating in the college programs are the programs itself? >> the greatest challenge for any is the time demand of their sports and putting that all together and managing their time being able to get through and go on to the college. obviously most of the attention is on men's basketball and football was which is a generating sport and the time demands are the greatest and where the academic backgrounds of some of the athletes are sometimes not quite as good as the rest of the student population but you have to keep in mind as well that the utility of the college sports runs across a much better spectrum and there are lots of people who are playing college sports who are into sports outside of those things. whether it is swimming or track and field or soccer or whatever where there is a whole lot going on and lots of students who are heavily engaged in their academics and have a lot of demand but there's not a lot of virtual prospects so they tend to be heavily involved in moving on to other things. >> host: they did a story looking at the college athletics into the kind of programs to students are involved in most of them being enrolled in the business communications and fails as a fitness studies and interdisciplinary studies. are these pushing the programs that are not rigorous? >> guest: it doesn't mean that they are not rigorous depending on the institution but some of this has to do in the interest of people playing sports. it might be sports management or recreation or the sports oriented programs in certain programs also are more. it's something a little simpler to manage depending on the academic model of the university or the academic demands were the disciplinary demands give students more freedom to pick and choose what they are involved in but there is no question that there's been signs of the athletes being funneled towards the academic programs within the universities for a variety of reasons some of which are more mysterious than others that have raised some questions about this and whether or not athletes are being able to major in programs that they actually wanted to be in or whether or not they are involved in programs that help them maintain their eligibility to continue playing. it is a serious commitment for every student ever landed somebody involved in the sport. >> ecologist standards on student athletes who have to make such and such grade in order to play the sport sex >> they have requirements about progress at a certain grade point average and in those requirements they vary from year to year as you go a long and complete for each year. but the idea behind those standards is to help push every player athletes towards the point where they would be able to finish their degree once they get get on done with their eligibility. that is the goal. >> is it being achieved? >> as they've been instituted there has been an increase in the rate of graduation by athletes whether or not those are good enough, that is open for debate. it depends on what is your comparison. are you comparing them against the totality or against the male population of the schools were what is your baseline comparison point and in some places the graduation rates again and you look across the broad spectrum the athletes graduate at a higher rate than students who are not athletes in the revenue sports and football and basketball and many instances those rates are lower. >> you said revenue sports. his football and basketball primarily? >> they generate the most revenue. there are a few sports depending on particular places actually generate surpluses although those are few and far between but for example women's basketball generates revenue. are you talking about the surplus generating sport basically the sport that generates the surpluses >> host: if you want to ask some questions about not only the student-athletes and revenues that are made or anything associated with that here are the numbers to call and we divided the line differently. perhaps you participate in sports and want to give your input. for parents 202-7481 and for educators 202748 and for everybody else 202 7488,003. back before we go further into the revenue, when it comes to the student how much power does the student health and saying i need help or assistance. how much help can a student gets when it comes to making decisions about itself involved in the sport? >> guest: the ability to get academic assistance there is a lot of advising and the decisions athletes and up not being happy with when they are done with school because they end up getting funneled towards programs easier for them to manage and are not where they wanted to end up where they first started in the schools or maybe they are not happy with where the end of that of that when they got done with school but there's an incredible support network as most at most of the major college athletics programs and it's a completely different environment than it is for the normal student in terms of being able to access and help with finding a preacher programs and so on. the demand for the athletes are considerable and that is the reason these are set up. there is a huge scaffolding around the athletes. >> host: sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. >> guest: again it is a question of whether or not the students are athletes wanting to end up in programs they want to be in or are they putting the programs to keep eligible or how does all that work and in some places it works really well and other places it hasn't worked well and there have been for example the university of north carolina where there is a lot of publicity recently about the academic scandal where people were being funneled into academic programs that's been proven to not be particularly rigorous or well monitored monitor and verify a lot of problems like that. >> host: we had a chance to discuss with several presidents in the series we did previously won the state of michigan state. she talked about the university's perspective on student athletes. let's get her perspective and then you can comment. >> we have student athletes who are both men and women whose graduation rates are as a whole about the same as our student body. obviously there are a few individuals who come to the university who leave a bit early to pursue their athletic interests. but we see all of our students no matter their athletic skills as students first and athletes second for them to be successful. we also have programs to ensure that student athletes returned to graduate and stay connected with us. two examples are currently might be an advocate or playing hockey for the detroit red wings who keeps e-mailing me that he is within six credits of getting his degree to cause he made that possible. you can look at a person like steve smith who is a commentator for basketball making a traffic income after his professional playing career and who has finished his degree and stay connected as the role model for almost every student athletes that we have. so the media tends to focus on the 1% of students who are the student-athletes who are not indicative of hours of students who receive scholarships as a part of our athletic program. >> there is validity to the process of the media on the 1% as it were. but it's the football players and men's basketball players and those are those that were involved in sports that people are most interested in and of the the ones on television the most and so on. you will notice and you are going to hear this over and over again with the administration and the student-athletes that is a term that has evolved out of itself to try to make it sound like there is -- like it is an equal deal and in the mind of a lot of athletes, but is not the case. in many instances for a lot of these guys the athletics come equivalent if not first because of the time demanded that are involved. there is no point kidding around about it. the demands are made are significant in terms of what is going on outside of the things in the practices the so-called optional. whether or not they are mandatory or optional, it is all the same and so the time demands on them are really significant. athletes who testified in the trial talked about some of that and for sure there are decisions that they make do with showing him to cross-examination but there's plenty of down time that they spend playing video games and watching tv marathons. so, there's a lot of time to do things with the decisions are made and the time demands that are made are considerable. this was a case that revolved around the use of athletes names images and likenesses and whether or not the athletes were being appropriately compensated for the use in live television through the free broadcasting games and all kinds of different uses. ultimately what has happened in the district court level is the athletes were awarded partially on their behalf that would open up the possibility of athletes getting on a different basis of the compensation for their participation in sports. monetary and the actual dollars to the college scholarship which currently is for the room tuition and fees in the schools into major conferences are going through in january in all likelihood to change the definitions of the college athletic scholarship would cover those things plus the actual cost of attendance which could involve transportation back and forth to and from school and other incidentals so that becomes a very complicated discussion how you determine the cost. >> host: let's hear from people that ask about college athletic programs. steve berkowitz. an educator you are up first, go ahead. >> caller: i appreciate the time to ask you this question. i am a character coach in the high high school in newcastle pennsylvania, and i've just been introduced in the last two years to this program. our program reaches into the likes of the student athlete when we try to support them. and the support produces the quality players and quality students coming and we have volunteers. do you find this in the colleges as well as in the high schools? have you heard this? >> what type of support are you providing? >> we are providing emotional support and in other words my job they started dropping the f. bomb and basically get all excited and we try to bring him into the control and then we find out that there is a problem at home. we find out that there is a problem in the studies. we used support to be able to help them and how im making the transition is that in the colleges there's a lot of downtime. >> you're wondering if they have a similar type of incentive. >> i wondered if you've checked into any of this and what is your opinion of that? >> there are considerable support programs put out there for the athletes in terms of their academics as well as the other areas of their lives. i think they do make an effort to try to support them in terms of their mental and psychological health and in terms of their medical help i think there's been a greater awareness of example in concussions and the impact of that. it's offered on the e-mail shuttle and spiritual element of this in some programs. so i think the schools are making an effort to do this. we have seen problems of the university of michigan football football program start with concussions and injuries and i think the schools are getting more and more aware of that. it's just the way the special sports are but there is the that kind of support available. go ahead. caller: good morning. ..estern and i played at ucla about 40 years ago and i think there's a lot of ignorance out there as to how an athletic scholarship was paid for. i went to school at a time when all the ills were blamed on the football players in the world and i'd like you to explain how a scholarship -- it's really not a scholarship it's a grant and aid, and it's outside the general scholarship of the school, correct guest: yes, the athletic department tends to run their own scholarship programs. that's true. if you're askingow they by and large the money that backs all the athletic programs as gender by the athletics programs. there's also subsidies that are put into the athletic program by universitiesthe universities and the amount of money into those programs through subsidy either through institutional funding or student athletic fees varies from school to school. there were only seven programs the most recent year that were available that received no type of subsidy. so i mean there's involvement general university funds or student, dedicated student athletic fund ease into those programs. is that what you're getting at? >> host: he's gone but to the concept of these students were not involved athletic programs, do they have an option to set would have might these put to something else other than sports programs transferred no. there are these specifically to support student programs. in exchange students are given in a discounted tickets to events for free admission to events, but those athletic these in the vast majority of cases those are not optional to their mandatory fees just like the fee you get charged to help support the computer infrastructure, the phone system, the bus system whatever else. that's part and parcel of the free structure. >> host: for football and basketball much of the revenue that's comprised especially in the ncaa comes from television? >> guest: a lot of it comes from television either through the arrangements the comment does make for football, which is where a lot of that money comes from or it also comes from the ncaa from my comes out of the television contract for the ncaa men's basketball tournament. football television is much bigger driver in those conferences that have the bigger television contracts, the five major conferences, atlantic coast, the big ten big 12, sec and the pac-12. >> host: a student mark you're on with steve berkowitz -- steve berkowitz. good morning. >> caller: good morning. thanks for disclosing all the information that you do. it's very helpful. >> guest: appreciated, thanks. >> caller: no problem. i wanted to make a comment and then just wanted to hang up after that. i hear all of this stuff going on about the ncaa and athletes should be thankful for scholarships. being at home athlete myself it's the biggest hypocrisy that i've ever witnessed. you cannot sit here and tell me that athletes cannot be paid money when i see coach like nick saban they can $7 million having a $3 million home paid for. i see coach jim harbaugh being offered $8 million. and then a cta suspended because he made a few bucks off of his autographs. you can never sit here and make a legitimate argument to me about a kid receiving a scholarship when the universities are making hundreds of millions of dollars off of their backs. it will never add up. it will never equalized. these kids for most of them have not asked to come to school. for the most part a lot of them are forced to come to school because they have to meet a requirement to become a professional athlete when we're talking about the 1% that that michigan state president had the nerve to get up there and talk about, okay, it's a free marketing scheme. so the professional sports would ever get involved because they want free marketing. it helps the athlete be able to land on the feet and run as soon as they attracted. >> host: mark can i ask you where he you want to school and what sport you played? >> caller: i went to school a few years ago. i went to corey p. x. >> host: did you go on a scholarship yourself? >> caller: i did. >> host: what did you play? >> caller: i played a sport. i'm not going to disclose that. >> host: okay. thank you. >> guest: what he's racing a really significant issues. there's a lot of conflict within the ncaa about what athletes are getting in relation to the salaries that coaches are being paid and the amount of revenue that's been generated by the schools. that's a big piece of what's going on in the old an intro committed these of what's going on in other litigations that are pending against the ncaa. and the conference. >> host: with a listing of some of those average pay for head coach. >> guest: major college coaches are making in the neighborhood of 2.7-$3 million a year in football. that's really serious money. that's the reason why people are finding this sort of inequity and college in terms of a college athletes are able to receive it something the schools in those major conferences are really, really eager to try to address in terms of expanding what a scholarship covers, the cost of attendance. i think schools have begun to recognize in part because they have been forced by these legal actions to recognize that the amounts of revenue that's being generated through these programs is so gigantic, and the salaries being paid are so gigantic that there is this imbalance that has developed over time. they are trying to address the. whether or not that's going to be sufficient remains to be seen. >> host: there's a movement to unionize athletes. >> guest: that's true. there's a case pending before the national labor relations board about the effort that northwestern university football team was presented with, with the option to unionize and whether or not, how that will turn out a regional director of the nlrb found that they were employees of the university. the university appealed to the national labor relations board as a whole. it was thought that the nlrb would issue a ruling because one of the five members of the board, nancy schiffer's term was expiring on december 16. there was a thought that a decision would be made by them. there's still decisions trickling out. it's still possible that we'll see something but it's also possible that with a new composition of the board that they will do with the because the perception of this case will continue to be appealed and litigated through the various procedures within the nlrb and potentially into the court. >> host: as part of our big ten series we had a chance to talk with university of iowa president sally mason, asked her about the concept of unionizing student athletes something she supposed to. here's why. >> well, i would hate to see that. i really do our student athletes and students first. our student athletes are performed well above not only the school average when it comes to graduation and gpa but also well above the national average. they take their studies and their academic pc or very, very seriously. amateur athletics i think needs to stay amateur. we need to be able to provide a great environment for student athletes and make sure that all the support they need whether its support for academics whether its support to keep them healthy. i'm all for making certain that we continue to add some benefits for them that we provide them with the highest quality opportunities. i really would hate to see them think of themselves as employees rather than a student athletes. i think that really is not what i look to college sports for. >> host: mr. berkowitz? >> guest: that's great and that's the position it's held by college presidents. the nlrb, however, took a different view of it and in the regional directors decision he wrote under the common law definition, and employed as a person who performs services for another under a contract of hire. subject to the others control the right of control and in return for payment. in a lot of people's minds that's exactly what's going on in college athletics that there's a contract of hire and that's a national letter of intent or the scholarship agreement that the students sign from year-to-year, that they are compensated, not an athletic scholarship is worth tens of thousands of dollars. in "usa today" several years ago we did a look at what the potential value of what a men's scholarship basketball scholarship is to get a look at the valley of everything that's part of that the coaching, if you were to go out and try to get that on your own and other benefits that athletes get along the way, that was without trying to put a dollar valley on the exposure that the athletes get from point a television solar, we found it to be around $125,000 a year. there is compensation. that could be used as argument back in the other direction. look at what all the benefits they athletes are getting. this is a pretty equitable system. i can't this goes back and forth about this but, you know, there's no question that this is something that continues to be highly debated. i know the schools are trying, as president mason said, they are trying to figure out a way to try to bring some more equitably to it. i think even the most academically minded people are thinking in terms of sports and most traditional off-line since recognized that things have changed. the business of college sports has changed, and it's a business, and there's no getting around that. and yes you know student athletes are going to school. they're having to go to school having to attend classes to stay eligible and that's a big piece of it. but there's a lot more going on there and there's a lot more of what's going on there and used to be the case. not that long ago. >> host: georgia charlie, a parrot for guest steve berkowitz, "usa today." go ahead. >> caller: yes, i get for taking my call. i'm of the age i retired when timeline came into play, i don't think our general public is quite knowledgeable about title ix. could mr. berkowitz explained does title ix mean that the college just have to have the same amount of students on scholarship, or does that mean that the college spends a million dollars on men's sports? doesn't have to spend a million dollars on women's sports? and also does title ix go down to k-12? thank you. >> guest: the answer to the latter question is yes, you see title ix complaints filed at the high school level. so that does apply. in terms of what constitutes compliance with title ix at the most basic level it's about opportunity. how do you measure that becomes a different and more subjective problem, and some of that has to do with the dollars spent to some of that has to do with the proportion of athletes that school and whether not that matches the proportion of men and women in the general student population. the are a variety of ways this is looked at. it's not strictly about dollars and cents. it's the same amount of spending and it's not strickland about one thing or another. there are sort of safe harbors that schools can use as targets for calm -- for compliance but a lot of this is subjective. sometimes it comes down to what happens when the department of education, office of civil rights deals with making examinations of the athletics program when a complaint is filed. they can be a very squishy area. >> host: another parrot. fort collins colorado. bob, go ahead. >> caller: good morning children. i wanted to the arms race in the facilities. colorado state university in fort collins is abandoning their football stadium about 45 years old to build and cram on campus for $363 million facility in the whole program loses $25 million the year last year. >> guest: yes, there's no question that facilities have become a huge area of competition among schools, that the luxurious miss of training facilities of stadiums are being viewed as sort of recruiting tools to bring in athletes. whether not and also their revenue generating sources for schools. they will make investments in luxury suites and other kinds of higher priced seating your whether its club seats are other ways to do that to generate revenue because schools are able to charge premiums on top of ticket prices in order to generate better for the athletes program as well as to pay for the the sulleys themselves. so there's no question this is a huge area competition for athletics programs and there is some question as to whether or not this is the best whether athletic programs ought to be spend the money. and when is enough enough? you have to have leather chairs and plasma television screens in front of every locker stall in order for it to be state of the art and all of those kinds of things. and yet it's a real series issue for schools because they're putting themselves into enormous debt situations that are long-term. some of the money that schools are getting from enhanced television contracts, some of that money a lot of that money is already been spent because of long-term commitments have been made in building facilities. in some places it works out great because they are able to sell luxury suites to help finance the cost of those stadiums. in some places it doesn't work out so well. it's been problematic for the schools, but there is no question there is the so-called arms race going on out there. >> host: you were asked from twitter is the there proof donors would go to two schools without sports programs? >> guest: i do know they wouldn't country to school for the university of california look at this really carefully and thoroughly and involve faculty, and they found there was a connection between some giving to the university from people who also gave heavily to the athletics program, and their affinity for the university generally in part was driven by the athletics program and there was real fear on the campus within and again, this was a group of people that involve faculty people at cal. to a significant concern about okay, if we drop sports what kind of impact will this have on our overall funding structure. at the same time athletics programs are competing for donor dollars in terms of endowments and other social projects, and there is competition within schools for dollars that will be donated directly to athletics as opposed to dollars donated to the general fund of the university. >> host: student athletes, are their names and likenesses used for merchandising purposes, and into the see anything for that? >> guest: under the ncaa's rules, they're not supposed to be using the athletes and names or likenesses. so, for example, you can buy a jersey that has the athletes name on. on the other hand, it's not coincidentally that when johnny manziel was playing at texas a&m, that the football jerseys the replicate football jersey that were sold in the school bookstore through the university had the number two macs on them. and also jay bell is from espn has done a really good job of pointing out certain issues of the ncaa. he found that these juries in some cases will be marketed with the athletes name. they didn't have the athletes name on the shirt but okay, this is the johnny manziel jersey. again it's not coincidental which shirt numbers, which numbers are being put on the jerseys that are being put out there for sale. people make those connections between the numbers and those players. >> host: nothing goes through the student everything goes through the program tried to correct. the athletes are not getting money in terms of road or anything like that. to the athletes benefit from the money that's generated from the sales that goes back to the university's? sure, because the underlying funding for their scholarships and the facilities and everything else comes out of the athletics program, but is a particular athlete, such as the cornerback in arizona getting really payments off of jerseys that have assured have a certain number on a? no. >> host: al from pennsylvania, you are up next. >> caller: apparently under a rationale that somehow mr. sandusky who is a low-level assistant coach at penn state have helped the penn state football team to an unfair advantage on the field when mr. sandusky was jailed for child abuse. the ncaa find penn state $60 million. it told them that they could go longer play in bowl games for a number of years. a reduced the number of football scholarships they were about to give them and they wiped out all of coach paterno's victories over the years. wasn't this a very harsh and unfair treatment by the ncaa? thank you. >> guest: harsh yes. unfair? that's a debatable point. it something that will be litigated in a case in the pennsylvania state courts that have expanded over, because initially the issue is a question of whether or not the money, i find it was lived against the university would have to be spent within the state of pennsylvania. that case expanded in a way that it sort of becomes a question about whether them about the ncaa's ability to go out some of these things. that's going to be coming up i believe in february. so it's a topic of ongoing litigation house of representatives we're talking about college athletics programs topic that came to a recentrecent big 10 series where we edited the presidents of big ten college. if you want to see the series -- series, still available on a website. let's hear from leo and lock the louisiana. good morning. >> caller: yes, but i do couple of questions -- off yet louisiana. >> host: go ahead. >> caller: my first question is, there is a particular university like kentucky, ma and basketball every year, every year they have like 17-19 mcdonald's all americans. this particular university gets 13 or 14 and no one determines what amount of money is involved. in football, i have a kid that played football over numerous amount of years, go and defeated. but because of money, we can go to a major bowl, but alabama does and and u.s. he does, and all the rest does. my third and final question, if i need an education in biology or law, why is it that an athlete, after one or two years can leave and go pursue the career, but as a biology major or education major i can't believe? >> guest: i'm not quite sure what he is is driving at the third caution is driving at the third caution of the third question is asked about what it shows what's going on with university of kentucky basco program, and the bigger issue with what's going on in kentucky has been the way that john calipari the co-chair has used the sort of one and done system that's been set up under the collective party agreement with the nba. that's required basketball players to go to school for at least one year. what he has done because he's been successful at it so it is on more and more players is that he's taken his guys and they went into prepares them for pro careers. they go to school for one year and emulate and i going going to the pros, and he's managed to continue to keep recruiting and try more athletes from more players in. now he's got a team that is playing legal today, and many people are thinking this may be one of the last best shots and then the they committed basically 10 guys who are largely interchangeable and put together a powerhouse team of guys, many of whom are viewed as nba prospects, many of whom will only be in school for one year. and whether or not that sort of makes a mockery of the entire educational system where they're having to be eligible essentially to maintain their eligibility through the fall semester. there are reasons for them to maintain eligibility through the spring as if they're coming back that would create problems for kentucky if they work. that's an issue with whether not that's what college should be about, and college sports should be about come is athletes coming in for one year playing ball and then being out that's basically what they're doing. >> host: a few asked if a student athlete, if he or she is on scholarship of the required to repay any money if they don't graduate because they turn pro transferred to repay? no. you are not required to repay money if they turn pro. the issue is athletes drink or is there to go back to school and complete their degrees. that's something schools, when the presidents talk about benefits they're trying to put in place for school, for athletes to come back to school, schools are getting more and more aggressive about trying to create opportunities for athletes to come back to school if they leave early to turn pro. >> host: is the ncaa making any effort to self regulate if the program its organization if i understand can 40 or so coaches and the like are formed a special counsel to oversee these kind of issues or take a look at the? >> guest: the ncaa itself as an association the number of schools is great for the purpose of self revelation. that's the whole idea. the question is whether not that self-regulation is working. and whether not that's resulting in something that's official is beneficial for the athletes or not. the ncaa isn't some third party group. yes, there are staff people who work in the employ of the association who are based in indianapolis and who are charged with interpreting rules and enforcing rules and overall running the association. in terms of the rules making peace of this, the ncaa is the schools. and i think folks will lose sight of that that the rules making is done by the schools themselves. whether or not the schools are doing a sufficiently good job of that remains to be seen. i mean a judge a federal judge in california said not so much, and composed, is prepared to impose the system on the schools. so there are definitely people who are dispassionate observers of the system who think schools are doing a good job house of representatives the republican of pennsylvania reduce the athletics a candidate act, takes a look at a wide right of things. is congress interest in college sports and how it's regulate and worked out? >> guest: there's an element of congress interest in this. the question is how big a portion of congress it is interested. there is clearly a significant vocal group of congressmen and senators who have taken an issue in these issues as of yet. whether or not there's a sufficiently large number of them to effect change remains to be seen. there've been a number of bills introduced that were introduced last year and some introduced late in the session as well. they have produced bills. a bill was sponsored by representative beatty. there've been a lot of cosigners to these bills. there've been letters written to the ncaa demanding response to questions of things like this. there's been hearings on this. the question is whether not a sufficient level of willpower in congress to get involved anyway that potentially will legislate some things, or whether or not just the force of congress pulling people onto capitol hill, to have her respond to questions, to appear at hearings and whether not that sufficient to get people's attention in college athletics to produce movement aspect steve berkowitz from "usa today" joins us to give i cannot sports and the project went to sports. sam from georgia, go ahead. >> caller: good morning. >> host: hi. >> caller: i have a common. i really feel like starting at the nfl level, that big money and/or organized crime moves the nfl. i hate to see it filled trading into college athletics, but a few of the watch a lot of football games you kind of wonder why certain games when. and i'm not an ohio state fan nor a wisconsin thing, but they are no better than wisconsin. there's some problems with this so-called playoff a group and how they organize it. thank you. >> guest: he's getting at some pretty serious allegations. there has been point shaving scandals in college athletics, but what he's talking about with regard to the score of the big ten conference championship game, that's a very serious allegation that you're making there with regards to ohio state beating wisconsin as bad as they did and was not added anything to do with anything. who knows? >> host: margaret, good morning. >> caller: hi, there, mr. berkowitz. my daughter was highly recruited gymnast in high school, and ultimately went to several different colleges to look at programs. she ultimately decided on ohio state and they made a lot of promises to her about we love that you know what you want to do we love that you know what your major is but the minute pretty much he got an campus she was told she had to change your major or she would lose her scholarship. wasn't based on performance although -- anyway, it's a revolving door in gymnastics at ohio state and we as parents try to get involved and went all the way up pashtun gene smith oversees gymnastics because there have been problems with the program but prima our conclusion was if it's not football they really don't care. it's not a money making sport, and we got no help no support from any of the academic side and we kept asking why was she told she could do this? ultimately there was no support from anyone in academics at ohio state. >> guest: gene smith is the person she referred to a recent gymnastics, is athletes director at ohio state. these are the kind of things were talking earlier in the show with regard to clustering in majors and athletes being funneled into certain major programs. athletes are told look, you can be pre-med if you want but there's a lot of really hard courses in pre-med and if you don't get a certain grade point average you will risk or eligibility because if you don't do well in the classes that are really hard to deal with, even without playing sports that if you do well enough in those classes in your not be able to play. athletes then, a lot of times athletes will say, okay maybe that's not such a great idea. some athletes persevere and get it done. there are
programming on american history every weekend on c-span3. follow us on twitter for information on her schedule of upcoming programs and to keep up with the latest history news. you are watching american history tv on c-span3. you are looking at a live picture from oak ridge cemetery from revealed illinois, where the 150th anniversary of president aber cap -- president abraham we can pause euro. with us is richard hart, a springfield resident and author. your book is "lincoln's springfield." tell us what we are going to see today and what's going to happen behind you this afternoon. >> this afternoon, you will see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 150 years ago. it started on the square downtown and it will take probably half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery, which is on the north side of springfield. that procession will be a reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. there will be a number of divisions with reenactors in those divisions. you will see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you are going to see a horse which would have in abraham lincoln's force, bob, led by an african-american henry brown coming into the cemetery. and then there is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. it is there lincoln's body as well as his son willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> why was president lincoln buried in springfield? >> this was his home for 24 years before he went to washington d.c. only a short time before he left greenfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. mary and abraham lincoln were president on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the speeches were made. the apocryphal story is that on the way home, abraham lincoln said this is where i would like to be buried. >> you mentioned mary todd lincoln. yet she did not leave washington dc and travel to springfield. why is that? >> mary todd lincoln's life was one -- she had to face any many tragedies and this was perhaps the greatest of all -- her husband the assassinated, and she was rightfully devastated by that. she was just not emotionally capable of making that trip. her son, robert todd lincoln was there with her. >> if you look on your screen, there are some of the reenactors. who are those folks in the tents and how long have they been camped out? >> some of them have been here since last wednesday and thursday night, when i was out here, we came out for dinner. a lot of the tents were out at that time and it was a beautiful scene. it was beautiful and the oak ridge cemetery gate the gate was lit up and across the road and across the road worthy tents with the fires -- were the tents with the fires and lit for the evening. >> we are to an expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's numeral. abraham lincoln died here in washington on april 15. his funeral on may 4 in springfield, illinois. what happened in the intervening time? what was going on in a couple of weeks back in 1865? those days during the time of his assassination in return and burial in springfield are kind of somewhat the subject of the book i have here, it was still with a lot of distress to the nation as to what was occurring. as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house, it was autopsied and involved. -- and him bald -- there were viewings there and it was taken to the train station and laced in a cattle car owned one of the railroads, a car for the director of that railroad. the funeral train left washington dc and had a number of people on the train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. the train made a very long long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city. the story is teddy roosevelt watched the procession from one of the windows. the train supposedly would not exceed 30 miles an hour. all of the tracks were cleared for this train and there was a lead train that went before it to make sure the tracks were clear. it eventually ended up in chicago and there was an enormous funeral in chicago lasting a couple of days with the viewing of the body at the courthouse. then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4. at every crossing in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered, often with bonfires and in many instances there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks . they were decorated with evergreens and flowers, even in the middle of the night, the review hundreds of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers today we have a couple of more things we will show folks. we going to look at the train station in springfield and have more about president lincoln's train. how may people came to springfield in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? >> that is an amazing question. the number is not certain that springfield at that time had a population of about 15,000 people. the estimate is between 75000 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were special trains from many of the midwestern cities that came into springfield and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes and remarkably, it was the first time a pullman train had been used and it was a sleeping car. because of that use during the lincoln funeral, it gained acceptance by the railroads as another aspect of the passenger train. that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> we're looking at live pictures rum springfield illinois. a reenactment today of the funeral of abraham lincoln. we see some of the folks dressed up, the reenactors in costume. are these local reenactors or do people come from all over the country to participate in this event marks -- in this event? >> that's a wonderful question. i was out here two days ago and a couple from orlando, florida were here. they were dressed in. costumes that were absolutely spectacular. -- they were dressed in. costumes -- i offered to take their pictures together. that's how i got to have this conversation with them and they had come for this event from orlando florida. she gave me this funeral badge -- i don't know if you can see that are not. she made it to hand out to people in springfield. i've met a number of actors from midwestern states, i met a german from lancaster pennsylvania and his reenactment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military got on it -- his military gone on a trailer. there is a subculture of reenactors in the united states. they have been here and many of the people you see in costumes i think are from out of town. many are from springfield, but it is hard to tell how to divide where they are from. it is a pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is you have lived in springfield for 47 years, most of your life. what is the mood of the springfield community about this reenactment? are people excited to host this event? >> it is remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been at least 10 different band concert in the last two days. the churches around springfield and these band concerts are reenactors. they come from all over the united states. there was a symphony last evening -- the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church and it was packed. at the edwards home, they are having a reenactment tea. it's a remarkable participation by the entire community for this event. i think everybody recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life and they just want to be a part of that, too honor him and commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> we are going to show a clip now and come back. we are waiting on this procession which i am told is historically accurate, the procession from the train station to the cemetery. >> they are following basically the same route that was followed in 1865. there might be a slight variation because of some of the roads there but it is very, very near the original route that was taken. it is about a mile and half from downtown to the cemetery here. i don't know how fast they are marching or walking but they will be here shortly. >> we are talking to richard hart, a springfield resident as we're live covering this reenactment of president abraham lincoln's general here on c-span three3 -- c-span3. we are waiting for this procession to make its available closer to your location. what's take you to springfield is old state after we talked to funeral director p.j. staub. >> this is the same room abraham lincoln served the last of his four terms as legislator and delivered his house divided speech. after an estimated 75,000 mourners viewed the president's body here right in front of us, in this very room, pallbearers carry him from this location to the hearse which made its slope recession to oak ridge cemetery where thousands more lined the streets to watch the hearse carrying president lincoln on his final journey. with this year marking the 150th anniversary of president lincoln's death, the special events and reenactments that will take place would not be complete without the abraham lincoln hearse at the center of it all. getting involved, one might ask how to do family get involved. after a meeting with the 2015 lincoln funeral coalition, i was asked could i find a suitable hearse. i responded sure, we will. [laughter] not really knowing at that time what it would entail. katie's countless hours of hard work fueled our families passion to get involved and perform to the best of our ability. katie is one of the many great people i have met along the way. another person i would like to mention is artist ray simon. ray recently completed a commission original life painting of america's story yet to be seen, the life and legacy of abraham lincoln. after i began researching, i found out the hearse was destroyed by a fire in st. louis, zero at a livery stable in 1887. -- st. louis ezra at a livery stable. all that remains are to silver italians seen here. after the initial research, we could not find a suitable hearse that adequately represented the hearse used for abraham lincoln. much like the historical account of 150 years ago. in an effort to give back and contribute to this anniversary our family decided to assemble a team of historians artisans, and old-school craftsman to reverse engineer and re-create the elaborate and ornate hearse. this is a mission that is not only vital to the reenactment, but a true honor and privilege for our family to play such an important role in this historic moment. it even fits our families omission -- our families own mission, to remember, to educate and to heal. we quickly prioritized this historic project into three phases. phase number one began in november of 2013. the design, guidance and research phase. the object was to find the best photographs, laurel, available. we could only find one. engage historians to find out more information. engage architect and fabricating consultants to determine the scale, dimensions and provide a blueprint for the bill -- for the build. professional guidance of this sort was sought i none other than one of our local architects, john schaefer and drew martin. attorneys for our legal guidance was jim fahey. we then prepare timeline for the project for each of the phases. search for the builders began. the pressure builds to understand how to use old-school craftsman to reverse engineer and re-create an 18th-century vehicle in the 21st century. we had to determine the scale the dimensions, we had to review the scale, revise, and start process all over until we got it just right. we knew the rear wheel had six folks -- had 16 spokes. and when you get 16 spokes together, you have to have a certain size. that brings the diameter out to about 56 inches for the rear wheel, which is about here. from the woodcut carving as shown previously, i measured from the receiving vault roof line at the gable end to the ground, almost got kicked out of the cemetery that evening. until they saw the plate on the car and said that's just one of the sobs. [laughter] to talk about the height when you see that woodcut carving at the bottom of the gable where it meets and you measure down to the ground, it's about 13 the. -- 13 feet. from the top to the ground, it matches that exact height, 13 feet. the build can now commence. >> we are back live in springfield, illinois here on c-span3 and a reenactment of president abraham lincoln. funeral 150 years ago this weekend. you can see richard hart, a springfield resident at author. we will let you have a chance to ask some questions or way in a little bit on this event. the procession we are waiting to make its way up to the cemetery and the reenactments of the actual speeches and funeral ceremony, are those historic accurate -- are they historically accurate representations of what took place 150 years ago? >> i believe so. i have seen the program and compared it to the program 150 years ago and i think very much exactly the same. that will be very exciting to see that. >> who were some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's general 150 years ago and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at abraham lincoln's funeral? richard: there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the prominent minister in the united states at that time. he came and he delivered the primary eulogy for abraham lincoln. in addition to that, there were photographers that came from philadelphia chicago -- there were reporters, believe it or not, that came from the newspapers, the new york papers, the washington a purse and -- the washington papers, one person who came that was a young reported -- a young reporter at the time formed the associated press. many of the photographs these photographers took here in springfield are still in existence and there is actually an exhibit in springfield that has all of those photographs. >> after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson became president, is that right? richard: yes. >> did he attend the funeral? richard: no. >> why not? richard: i think you have to remember that in addition to this numeral transpiring in a time of 90 days in american history, you had congress passing the 13th amendment freeing the slaves, it had to be approved by the states and i was not done until december of that year. you had lincoln delivering his second inaugural address, which is a masterpiece and then you have lincoln delivering a speech saying he believed certain black men should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e lee surrendering to grant and bringing about the closing of the civil war and the country was euphoric after that. been within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated and everybody went into extreme morning. -- extreme mourning. because of that, there was a lot of uncertainty about the government and what was going to happen. a lot of people just stayed in washington. there was also the search for john wilkes booth and any conspirators. that took the front page of many newspapers, so there were a variety of things occurring and the people who came to springfield, and they were numerous from out of springfield the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 on the east coast, 2:00 at your time, let's take our first caller. caller: i just have a general question. host: no angela. i'm sorry. we are going to work on our own call and as we try to get that could together, let me ask another question. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we are seeing? are these accurate costumes these reenactors are wearing? richard: absolutely. they are very accurate. the lady walking toward us -- what i think you have the screen before, that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. one year ago that did not exist. where we are sitting his afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bramble. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate. that was re-created this year based upon photographs from the time. it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. it was dedicated in december of last year and is through those gates the procession will come. it was done, quite frankly because of this event today, but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. it connects to lincoln park, which is immediately to the east and so it will become part of this total neighborhood and the people of the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. what you are looking at now is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see the reenactor 10 -- reenactor tents and reenactors there. ar absolutely accurate and they are fanatic about every aspect of their costumes, the tenants their flags, the food they eat the betting they have, everything is a re-creation of the time they represent. that is what i was saying the other evening when we came out here -- it was absolutely beautiful, the white tents, they had fires going, it was really something. you can see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. >> we're going to try one more time with the phone calls. we're going to see if we can get bob from bob, go ahead, you are on c-span three. caller: i understand that robert lincoln was at the final internment of abraham lincoln read is he buried there you go -- buried there? host: yes, the children are buried there except for robert. robert todd lincoln, by all accounts wished to be buried there. he was survived by his wife and she thought he deserved his own separate identity and monument. he is buried in washington dc it is very interesting. before he died he was brought back to the united states and was actually there read with his grandfather abraham. tom was taken out of this cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his fall -- with his father. robert todd lincoln is not varied here all of the other family members are. robert todd is buried in washington dc. host: we will go to boise, idaho. you are on. caller: good afternoon. i have another question about robert todd lincoln, how did he get to the cemetery? i read somewhere he was staying a couple of days in washington with his mother and let his father take care of him while he headed out the internment. richard: you are absolutely correct. this is one of the very interesting things i found when i was doing the research for the book. the robert todd lincoln did not intend to come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, the supreme court justice and who had been the judge of the circuit here in illinois, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents, took them with him back to bloomington. but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting he sent a telegram to robert todd lincoln. i will paraphrase it, but it basically said robert, it is imperative you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends they said that if you do not that you would regret it for the rest of your life area you should make preparations to come immediately. robert got on the train and did to springfield. he stayed here's -- stayed here for several days. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where it eventually the monument would be constructed. a perhaps you will be able to see that later on. host: the reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral, making some rule that some room for your phone calls. if you're out in the mountain or pacific time zone's -- we will go to idaho with jeff. go on ahead, you are on with our guest. caller: i was born and raised 30 miles from there. in a town called taylorville. my question is what, if any role did his former law partner play in the funeral? richard: that is a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's long -- lincoln's law partner at the time -- there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. he played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, when i was doing this research, that he did not play a larger part. some of the other townsfolk played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what is to be done in planning the funeral. i don't know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield he was to be buried. the local people all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. it was a private residence on a hill. these men in the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built between the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln did not want that to occur, and she threatened to remove him from spring field or not allow him be carried to spring field if that was done. a she insisted he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. her wishes one out. host: we will take a call from florida. terry, go ahead. you are on the air. caller: i would like to thank c-span3 for this program. my question is i understand after he was placed in the two that there was threats to steal the body or attempts to steal the body. i was told he had been moved out of there and placed elsewhere until the possible threats were taking care of. and that he was later reinterred back in. i understand for a period of time the body may not have been there. i would like to find out how accurate that is. richard: that's very interesting. we are getting far past the time of the actual funeral. to recount, where he was initially placed was a receiving fault. and that receiving vault was for general use, when people could not be buried immediately. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the side of this hill. they were moved into that involved in december of 1865. there was a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site on the top of the hill. it was there they built the first monument. you are seeing it now on the screen. this is where lincoln was buried today. that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone. after it was redone this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. as far as the people who were involved, they failed to do it. because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen, the final internment was that a whole was dug, his hottie was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. he now lies in that tomb in back of me. but he is under many feet of concrete. you should go and ask about the number of times lincoln was exhumed and reburied. there may have been a period where people were in the tomb, looking at what they thought to be the burying site of lincoln when he was not in that actual site. host: we will go up the road. you are on c-span. caller: high. in i was sitting here listening watching the events on tv and everything. i can't remember if he was basically in the war the military, or something. was there any thought of him being buried at arlington national cemetery? i was wondering about that. richard: as far as his military record, he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830's. as commander in chief he would be entitled to be buried in arlington. i don't know of any suggestion that he was and i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk about the possibility of burying him in the capital building in the vault. there had been plans for george washington. his body did stay in the capital. the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c. and perhaps chicago. i think it was part of the back and forth between mary, lincoln and springfield. i believe at some point she said we will just take him to chicago and bury him there. that is a very good question. that was not considered. host: we are going to get one more call in right now. it is bobby or richard hart. acaller: my mother is at oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. i did get to see the vault, which was open at that time. i did see the old fault and i wonder if you are going to talk about it. you started talking about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary probably on c-span, about how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob his body and take it away. where he is now is beautiful. my mother is there. it was quite an interesting. i wonder what you can tell us about that. richard: are you asking about the receiving vault? caller: it is low to the ground. i remember picturing it in my mind. was that what they called it the receiving vault? richard: it is right in back of me. i'm sitting opposite the receiving fault -- the receiving vault. that is what i was talking about earlier. can you see the receiving vault? there is an angle shot i believe. host: we can see it. richard: that is the vault. that was built way in advance of lincoln's death. it was used basically to hold bodies until the ground might thought and they can dig a grave. hethey would put them in that receiving vault. it is almost fortuitous that it was there and lincoln's body was brought there together with willies, his little son who died in washington. they were moved into the vault. further up on the hill you will see the actual monument that is there today. that was built in later years. as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was either in the receiving fault or the bolts on the hill. it was later on. i claim no expertise in that area of history. asthere are some good books you might look into on the attempts to steal his body. host: a beautiful afternoon in springfield illinois. the oak ridge cemetery. a live reenactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln. this is the 150th anniversary of that event. we are going to re-create the funeral here for you on c-span3. our guest is richard hart, sharing his expertise on the subject. as we wait for the folks dressed up in the funeral procession and period costumes, let's take you now to the town of -- where david cloak of cloak construction has been building a replica of the train car that carried president lincoln's coffin some 150 years ago. >> the car was built for the president. he never wrote in it when he was alive. true he was kind of a common man. he didn't want to ride in his car because he had soldiers dying everywhere and he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this car the day he died, april 15. it was built as a private car for him in alexandria virginia as a filler job to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that. with all the war effort and everything, i thought they would be busy. they managed to build this car. he was a secretary of war. after his death they converted it to a funeral car. >> what happened after 1865? >> they owned it for quite a while and sold it to colorado. they ended up buying a railroad back. that they sold it to some man who took it on tour. sitting on the sighting in minneapolis. some kids started a prairie fired and it -- prairie fire and it got burnt. it would have been the air force one of his day. it is pretty well decorated. it is going to be a beautiful reproduction about the -- reproduction of the car, 95% accurate. we have had a lot of good woodwork and upholstery. three guys showed up that did the upholstery work at the right time. everyone seems to come when we need them. i have told two period locomotives. after that was over i kind of wanted to build a car. this is the only one that was ever made like this. they always leased their cars. we kind of kicked it around and decided to build a lincoln numeral car. it's going to go on in its educational tool. a lot of people get to see this car. they were pretty nice. >> how long have you been working on this? >> about five years. when we laid the floor boards after the frame was built last march. this would have been a pilot room at one time. willie was on this end. mr. lincoln was on the other end. we are trying to create the funeral. we will decorate that like it would have been for the funeral. the rest of the car we are going to leave that as it was before the funeral, as it was decorated for him. that is also from alexandria genia. -- from alexandria virginia. >> what was this central room? >> that would have been his state room or bedroom. there's not a lot of description about it. >> what are some of the pieces in that room? >> we put a bet in. it is a period that. we have a lady onto history. she bought this furniture and had it redone. >> the third rule will be more designed as his funeral room. the cost will be two chairs, which came off of a slavery plantation. they were there to guard the coffin. we will have them set up on either side and have the black tray on the curtains. the exact same car company also a made -- also made this cabin. -- made this carpeting. it was made on a loom. they actually had to hand stitch some of the fabric together. we went with this color because in some of the descriptions they talk about forest green, green leather. that's how we came up with this color. >> there were 26 states and the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all of the 26 states, even the southern states. mr. lincoln was all about the union. these lamps we had made in california. he makes lamps for the movie industry and re-re-create what we think the lamps would look like from a read -- from a description and pictures we have of the period. we were able to get that etching. that is correct. we have a guy in tucson who is the foremost expert on this car. he is our technical advisor. he doesn't have a lot of detail on the inside of the car. on the outside, he was instrumental in getting the color. there were several of the windows that survived. they took it to a lab and had a pain analysis. we know the color is correct. we know it was an off-white. we have a lot of pictures of the outside of the car. we think we pretty much nailed it. there is supposed to be more striping on the car but funding has been a little slow for that. >> the railings are different on each end. we have a full railing on this end, which was handmade by a blacksmith which was really interesting to see. on the other hand we don't have the full set railing, because that's what they used to roll the coffin in and out of that doorway. >> the trucks are all steel frames and back in the game they -- back in the day they would have been a wood frame truck. they would have a dual gauge wheel that would derail every time they went to a switch. it fell out of favor quickly. after the war they built everything with standard gauge. he wanted to tie the east and west together. he wanted to tie california to the union. he signed the transcontinental railroad act. he did a lot of things for this country a lot of people don't realize. them him -- >> it is a once-in-a-lifetime project. we want to educate people, especially the youngest generation. lincoln was a magnificent man. he had a great vision when he decided to sign the railroad act. we had a railroad tracks across the country and that's what made our country grow. that's what made america america. it is a 150th anniversary. it was lincoln actually inspired dave to build the love i. -- build the leviathan. he felt the need to build this. he felt this generation the data make it happen for the 150th anniversary. >> reenactment, 150 years later of president abraham lincoln's funeral. we are told 1000 or so reenactors are participating in the event. they are making their way up the road. all afternoon our guest has been spring yield resident, lawyer, are -- lawyer and author richard hart. i see you are wearing a ribbon on your lapel. is that historically accurate? richard: i don't know if it is historically accurate. the lady gave that to me yesterday. i told her i would wear it today. people here had these ribbons. there were a number of these ribbons made. some people have them and they are on exhibit in some of the museums. host: you can see the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us what you were seeing. richard: can you hear the bell ringing? that's the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. it is being wrong to announce the entrance of the procession into oak ridge cemetery. one of the first divisions marching in full uniform. they are coming in really slowly. i lost it. i lost the hook up. host: we will let you find the hook up. as we do that we watch this procession very solemnly. let's watch and listen here on c-span3. richard: it looks as if the first part of this is a military band, walking very slowly. i don't know who the lady is in front, but she is certainly not in proper military gear. you can see there are instruments and they are of the period. they are walking down 1st street. it is somewhat of a hill. they come through the gate that we talked about earlier. it was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. there you see the gate and now it is being open. crossed through the gate you can see some of the reenactors. host: were funeral processions like this comment for a citizen or was this very unusual and very unique to abraham lincoln? richard: i think the victorian customs were elaborate. this was the ultimate funeral. in victorian funerals it was the ultimate. it was just the history of mankind. i don't know how many millions of people came back to springfield. there were probably 100,000 visitors or the funeral. host: with those visitors have lined this route? would they have been watching this procession and all that? richard: they would have and they would have been in this valley where i am sitting across from the vault. they were divided into divisions, the people who marched into this procession. it was by their military unit. there were clergy divisions. there were lawyer divisions. it just went on and on. the official order of the procession is very interesting to read as far as all of the different institutions and military groups. >> we saw some of the military reenactors. was that a common custom, a form of respect that the military would do an event like this? >> i believe so. they are now entering the gate. they are now just coming through the gate. it's just the drum i believe. i don't believe there playing any instruments. host: let's watch and listen to them. a live coverage of this 150th anniversary. richard: this is the hearse that you see now. host: what are those things on top of the hearse? richard: this was loaned to the city of springfield for this funeral by jesse are not, i funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses. it was reconstructed. great detail and great accuracy. they have done an absolutely outstanding job of detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes on the hearse. i believe some of these horses were from the amish, around illinois. they have these workhorses. they leased them out for this occasion. the first part of the procession is approaching the receiving vault. you may not perhaps here the drumbeat. host: can you tell us a little bit about who the marshall in chief was historically and why he was the major general why was he the marshall in chief. >> i had lunch today with a lincoln scholar. i asked him that a very question because i did not know. he said he did not know either. he had a very interesting career in the united states military, both up and down. had been both successful and lost several battles. but he was in charge of this to the military aspects of it and he was in charge of this procession. he was very fond of the women. that is how the name got attached to certain aspects. now you are seeing the beautiful hearse. absolutely gorgeous. and the military -- again, drums beating. a very slow drumbeat. you can see the instruments. you are looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gate. host: that is a re-creation of the coffin of abraham lincoln. is there something specially made for the president? richard: it was a group of people with an amazing amount of research for this occasion. it has been on this display. they have done a wonderful job. here comes the reverend henry brown with the horse of abraham lincoln. he was an underground railroad conductor, he worked for the lincolns. he was living in quincy and came in springfield to lead lincolns horse in the funeral. and you can see that. that is very moving. the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. you can see the pallbearers lined up in back, walking up with the hearse. many of those are descendents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart his great-great-grandfather was taught stewart, who was a first law partner of abraham lincoln. he is in the procession today. now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault. it has become very quiet. you can see the pallbearers walking in with the white sash. the hearse is now approaching a receiving vault. host: what division is this that would be accompanying the hearst most closely that we are watching? >> there were many divisions many of them came from camp butler which was a union camp just east of springfield. many of these were units. the iron brigade, they are pulling the hearse off to the side. host: there you see the ostrich plumes. was that a common symbol of mourning in the victorian era? richard: i don't think anything approached this carriage. this carriage was probably an ultimate example of victorian funeral carriages. host: at the time 150 years ago were there for an ignorant terry's present as well is there in springfield? were foreign dignitaries present? richard: my book lists all of the various people who were here. probably 20 generals from the civil war. davis, who was a supreme court justice, there were many people. there were a number of dignitaries. a number of dignitaries came within the weeks after their burial. host: if anyone outside of the united states was able to arrive in spring field, president lincoln dying april 15, his funeral on may 4. richard: i'm not aware of any kind of diplomatic foreign representatives or any europeans that may have come before the funeral. at the end of the funeral procession in the original order proceedings, it was the colored people and others. as this came in to oak ridge cemetery on the north side of springfield, there were assembled approximately 10,000 americans to pay respects. host: we are told the first division was head up by the marshall in chief along with the brigadier general. second division was a military not assigned to the you would -- to the unit. the third division had the pallbearers. the congressional delegation and the governors. of fifth division as local government. similar organizations. delegations from universities and colleges. local fire companies. and then the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up 150 years ago. i would assume they are re-creating that to some extent. richard: the original procession of 100 50 years ago was much larger than what we have seen today. host: you can see some of the fire company there in period costumes. richard: there is a great photograph in downtown springfield right before they left on the procession. an absolutely wonderful photograph. it's interesting, you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings. the color would mean something or the way they are trained would mean something. that is a way of identifying. many of the people have the funeral medallion on, as i have had on my coat this afternoon. none of them wear black. do you know why that is? at that time only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. you were not supposed to dress in black if you are not a member of the family. ashost: i see that applied more to the ladies than the gentleman. that would have been there every day where. richard: exactly. ishost: we are watching with richard hart in spring field illinois, the reenactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln 150 years ago. when the procession has ended, i was just going to ask when the procession has got themselves all the way in then it would be a reenactment of the ceremony, including the oratory. and we are going to bring that to our viewers as well. let's watch the soldiers move in the coffin. host: a live picture on your screen from spring field, illinois. this is a re-creation of the funeral of abraham lincoln which took place 150 years ago from this weekend. you see the people there from -- the people there in all of the up here -- in all of the appropriate period closed of the army. richard hatch has written a book on that subject. the book is called what? richard: the funeral of abraham lincoln. host: how long did it take you to research all of this for that book you how long have you been interested in this particular event. richard: i collected photographs from 19th century springfield are number of time. i had a number of photographs from the funeral in 1865. i knew this funeral was coming up. i thought it was a boring topic but it is absolutely fascinating. the whole story from the time of the assassination to the time of the burial. it is an incredible story. it took me about three years. host: the event capturing the imagination of others. are these reenactors and the other people in period costumes, are they at their own expense? they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? richard: yes, it is. it can not become very expensive but the military equipment, guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for a military person, they buy. there are events where they go in there will be a huge place to buy things as -- and buy things. it can become a very expensive hobby. there is great camaraderie among the participants. you see us perform during the day but our camps at night -- it is like las vegas. they say they have a lot of fun. the body is now being taken i believe, around for a viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin you mentioned earlier in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. every town the train went through, it seemed there were enormous bouquets of flowers that would be offered. some of them were put on the outside of the train. just an outpouring of tributes. host: we talking with richard hart about this re-creation and reenactment. what sort of clergy involvement was there? was it a denominational ceremony of any sort or nondenominational? can knew -- what can you tell us about that. richard: william simpson was the minister. he was the principal speaker, i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either read psalms or other religious passages. and the music was very traditional. it seems to be a long funeral service. i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, simply because the people who spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield. lincoln had heard and thought he was an outstanding minister. the people here are assembling before a large stage that has been erected, that would not have been there at the time of the funeral. this is a large stage. flowers and different plans. one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now. the coffin as i black and -- the coffin is on a black tablecloth. you can see it now. behind that and toward the other hill here, there are assembled people in period dress. some men in top hats. some of them have parasols and umbrellas. and the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see, up the hill and back. people are standing in the and behind the vault. this stage is not something that was there that was into 1865, but perhaps everyone will get to be able to better see and hear. also, a big screen tv, and outdoor television up for everybody to see what's going on. >> let's ask that question. >> the only reason the cemetery was outstanding -- >> richard, can you hear me? >> probably one of the best examples in midwest illinois. they have been trimmed for this occasion. we had a drought several years ago and some of the oaks were taken down to the last week by volunteers. the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era. so, they are saving the tree would and making that into mementos for people who visit oak ridge and want to have such a memento. >> richard, i understand that your earpiece fell out. can you hear me now? we're alive from springfield, illinois, with richard card, our resident expert from springfield on the funeral of abraham lincoln. waiting for the ceremony to get underway here on american history tv. can you hear me, richard? here on c-span three, we will wait for richard to come back with us and watch some of these sites and here's some of what it sounds like to re-create this funeral 150 years later in springfield, illinois. >> ok. >> james? >> hold on. >> we are going to thank the guest and keep watching. >> all right, as you can see here on c-span three, the reenactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral looks like it is about to be underway, so we will think our guest on site there in springfield, richard hart, for being there with us all afternoon and offering his insight. author of the book "the funeral of abraham lincoln." this is "american history tv." as you can see, this reenactment on a beautiful spring day in springfield is underway and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when the funeral reenactment itself is done we will have a chance for you to talk to a historian and we will take some more of your phone calls. ♪ ♪ [crying baby] ♪ >> good afternoon. we thank you for being here to be a part of this solemn assembly. as we do those things that are necessary for president lincoln. at this time i would like to introduce to you lynn woolsey who will portray reverend albert hale. >> let us pray. father in heaven, we acknowledge the as the author of our being and the giver of every good and perfect gift. you give life, you take it away. the lives of men and of nations are in your hands. we bow before you today believing in that presence and asking that with submissive hearts we may acknowledge the in the serious thoughts that press upon millions today. we thank that you give to this nation your servant, so mysteriously and maliciously taken from us. we thank the, father in heaven that thou did give him to your people and that he was raised in a position of power and authority that through him you have been led through to the present hopeful condition of our public affairs. before the our hearts are in grief and sorrow and we entreat the to remember especially the bereaved widows and families. we play that -- pray that in this hour of trial god gives to them the blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation that they in their grief shall see that it is not a sorrow, but under god the opening day of nebulous -- never-ending blessings. today we commit them and relatives who mourn in this distressing event we commit the people of the city and state in which he has grown up in whose affection he holds today in his death stronger than in the most powerful moment of his life. versatile god, bless us help us to cherish the memory of his life and the work on the high example he has shown. we do pray that the high purpose for which he lives may be carried to completion. god, thank the for the other example that you set us in the city year, the truth, the love of freedom, the opposition to wrong, and injustice is slavery. we pray that god will grant policy of our government touched upon in these issues may be successfully carried through her not a slave will carry shackles in the land and not a soul be found that will not rejoice in his glory and power in the hearts of this nation. god, our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who is so mysteriously called to occupy the chair of state. give unto him humility and wisdom to direct his steps, a love of righteousness and cherish the freedom of the people while he sits at the helm of the nation. our father in heaven, we pray upon the millions who have come out of bondage, remember them my brother, give to him who has taken from us, may all the people unite in their prayers their patients, their self-denial so that these may come up and take their place in the nation's citizens rejoicing in newborn privileges and the rights in which god gave and man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we ask my blessing upon all those endeavoring today to secure the public interest against the hands of an assassin and prevent the murder of those in high places. god, let i just dislike righteousness and power rid the nation of those from these evils arise. maybe union rise up and become a night -- a light on the nation of earth in future times. father in heaven, thou art just and righteous. only and all of thy doings are we simple and unworthy of privilege, but that has not dealt us after our sins. according to your iniquity there are services still to be performed here and accepted by christ our redeemer and the father and the holy spirit glory everlasting -- amen. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> benjamin cole will be playing dr. meyer. >> a reading from job, chapter 19. have pity upon me, have pity upon me my friends, for the hands of god have touched me. why do you persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh? oh, that my words were now written, that they were printed in a book, that they were graven with an iron pen and led in the rock forever. for i know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand at the latter-day upon the earth and go after my skin worms destroy the body, yet in my flesh i shall see god, whom i shall see for myself and my eyes shall behold, not another. my brains be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ >> chief justice williams, rhode island supreme court retired for reverend dr. matthew simpson. >> fellow citizens of illinois and many parts of our entire nation near the capital of does large and growing state of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove, at the vault that is about to receive the remains of our former chieftain we gather to pay a respectful tribute and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago he left his plane and quiet home, exchanging parting words with friends gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century. with his children, where they have been born and he had enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an earnest request in the hearings of some present at this hour as he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any that had fallen upon any man since the days of washington. people would offer prayer that god would aid and sustain him in the work. he left your quiet city, but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only through the vigilance of officers and the prayers of the people so that final tragedy was suspended for more than four years. how different the occasion which witnesses departure from that which witnessed his return. doubtless you expected to take him by the hand, feel his warm grasp and feel his -- see his tall form walking among you. but he was never able to return until he came with mute lips, silent framed in a coffin and a weeping nation following as his mourners. there have been other mornings when kings and warriors have fallen -- but never has there been such morning is that which has accompanied this funeral procession for our loved one who now sleeps among us. tears fill the eyes of manley sunburned faces. strongmen, as they clasped the hands of their friends, were not able to find words to express their grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow. the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields the home of factories ceased, the sound of the hammer was not heard. busy merchants closed their doors, businesses and homes were draped in black. three weeks have elapsed and there is a mournful silence upon the land. this morning is not confined to any class or district of the country. men of all political parties and all religious creed have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and the protestant minister walk side by said, and a jewish rabbi performed a part of the solemn services. here gathered around his to mark soldiers sailors, governors, judges, officers of all the branches of the government. here, too, are men and women from the humblest and highest occupations. here too, sincere and warm tears coming from the eyes of those who have been freed from their chains by him, whom they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed on the face of the departed than ever looked upon the face of any other departed man. have looked on the procession by 1600 miles, night and day, sunlight dawn, twilight and torchlight than ever before watch the progress of a procession. why has there been this extensive morning, this great outpouring of grief and this great procession? perhaps it is become -- because of the time in which we live, in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change. a time of war in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wise gave them -- wives gave their husbands, mothers their sons. many never returned and there was morning in every home in the land. then came signs about the end of this rebellion was dear. news came that richmond had fallen. the bells rang merrily across land. the booming of canon was heard. illuminations and torchlight processional's manifested joy and families were looking for the speedy return of loved ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy in one hour, in one minute all the joy was stilled when news that abraham lincoln the best of presidents, had perished by the hand of an assassin. all of the feelings that have been gathering for years in the forms of excitement, grief power and joy turning into a whale of 10, a sadness inexpressible, and anguish on honorable. he was stricken down when his hopes were bright and prospect of a joyous life before him. perhaps the great cause of this morning is to be found in the man himself. mr. lincoln was no ordinary man. a conviction has been growing on the mind of the nation that by the hand of god he was especially singled out to guide our government in these troubled times. he had a quick and ready perception of fact, a memory unusually tenacious and retentive, and a logical turn of mind that followed unwaveringly every link in the chain of thought on which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds more broad and their character, more comprehensive in their scope but he had the ability to follow, step-by-step, with more logical power the points that he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to proceed and perceive the truth in all its relationships and simplicity and when found, to honor it. his moral power gave him preeminence. the people saw abraham lincoln as an honest man who would do what was right, regardless of the consequences. it was this moral feeling that gave him the greatest told on the people. but the great act of the mighty chieftain on which his name shall rest long after his frame shall molder away, is that of giving freedom to a race. such a power, such an opportunity god has seldom given to man. none of the event shall be forgotten when his world shall have become a network of republics and when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth and literature showing light and all mines and the claims of humanity recognized everywhere. the shelti conspicuous on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the grace to issue that proclamation that stands high above all others penned by uninspired men. abraham lincoln was a good man. he was known as an honest, temperate, forgiving man. a just man. a man of noble heart in every way. look over his features. listen to his utterances. he never spoke unkindly of any man. even the rebels received no word of anger from him. in his domestic life he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted husband and father. standing as we do today by his coffin, let us resolve to carry forward the policy that he so nobly began. let us do right by all men. let us bow in the sight of heaven -- val in the sight of heaven to eradicate every vestige of human slavery. to give every human being his true position before god and man. to crush every form of rebellion and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when, in the beautiful words of he whose lips are now forever sealed, the mystic chords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and heart stone all over this land will yet swell the course of the union when it is touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our feature. chieftain, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to the children. man shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your record and learned the lessons of wisdom. you, though your lips be, still speak. hushed is your voice, but the echoes of liberty ring through the world and the sounds of bondage lifted the joy. yet you are marching abroad and chains and manacles are versed in etch or touch. we crown you with humanity in throwing you as your triumphant son. hero, monarch, friend, farewell. [applause] ♪ >> reverend jerome kowalski will portray reverend ac hubbard. >> during the first week of march in 1865 on the steps of the capitol in washington city the 16th president of these united states gave his second inaugural address. this is what mr. lincoln said. fellow countrymen, at this second appearing to take the oath of presidential office there is less reason for an extended address than the was at the first. then a statement somewhat in detail to be pursued seemed fitting the proper. now at the expiration of four years through which public declaration has been publicly called for on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and egress of the nation build as new could be presented. the progress of our arms upon which all else chiefly depends is well known to the public as it is to myself. and it is, i trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all would hope for the future that no prediction with regard to it is ventured. on the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it. all sought to avert it. while the inaugural address was being delivered the vote to save the union without war was searching for agents in the city seeking to destroy it. seeking to dissolve the union through negotiation. one party would make war rather than let the nation survive. the other would accept war rather than let it perish. the war came. not distributed generally over the union, but localized in the southern part of it these slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. everyone knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. strengthening, perpetuating, strengthening this interest is the union rendered, even by war, while the government claimed no right to more than a restricted territorial enlargement of it. neither party expected the magnitude or duration that it has already attained. neither anticipated that the core of the conflict might cease before the conflict itself should cease. each looked for an easier triumph and in the result less fundamental was astounding. both of them read from the same bible and pray to the same gods invoking their names against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance in this, but let us not judge lest we be judged. the prayers of both could not be answered. neither have been answered fully. the him might he has his own purposes. while on the world because of its offenses, must needs be the offenses come, but will to the man by whom the offenses have come. if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of those offenses through the providence of god need come, but which having continued through his appointed time he now wishes to remove he gives the north and the south this terrible war and doomed are those for whom the offense came should we discern and there any departure from that tribute in which the believers in the living god always ascribed to him? finally, do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war might speedily pass away. yet it is god's will that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman, 250 years of unrequited toil be sunk and every drop of blood drawn by the lash be paid by another drawn by the sword, as was said 3000 years ago, so must it still be said the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. with malice toward no one but charity for all, with firmness as god gives us the right to see, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, binding up the nation's wounds, to care for him who have borne the battle with widow and orphan and do all that may be achieved and cherished in lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. [applause] >> ♪ amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, i once was lost but now am found, was blind but now i see ♪ >> we rejoice in the communion of saints, we remember all have faithfully lived, all who have peacefully died, those most dear to us and, especially, our good friend and great leader, abraham lincoln, who now rests in you. give us at length the portion of those who trusted in you and trusted to do your holy will, undoing your name with the church on earth and church in heaven, describing in very, a world without end, amen. ♪ >> the reverend jean tucker will portray reverend dr. phineas whirly. >> with your kind permission may i be permitted to share some portion of the words offered at the funeral service for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19? as we stand here, today, around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate, we recognize and adore the sol and -- solemn treaty of god, his throne in the heavens and his kingdom ruling over all. he have done and has permitted to be done whatsoever he pleases. whom the lord love, he's how these blessed words have cheered, strengthened, and sustained us through these long and weary years of civil strife while our friends and brothers on so many sanguine fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthen and sustain us today. through this new sorrow and chastening have come in such an hour and in such a way as we ought not that he should be taken from us and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country, just as he was beginning to be a animated and gladdened, the hope of enjoying with the people the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self-sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home in illinois and coming to the city of washington to take his seat in the executive chair of a disturbed and troubled nation he said to the friends who gathered tearfully around him and made him farewell -- i leave you with this request, pray for me. they did pray for him. millions of others prayed for him. they did not pray in vain. the answer appears in all of his subsequent history, shining forth with a heavenly radiance and the full force and tenor of his administration, from its commencement to its close. god raised him up for a great and glorious mission, furnished him for his work, aided him in its accomplishment. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and pertinacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things he gave him a calm and abiding confidence in the overruling providence of god in the ultimate triumph over truth and righteousness in the power and the blessing of god. this confidence strengthen him in his hours of anxiety and toil and inspired him with calm and cheery hope when others were inclining to despond and see. never shall i forget the emphasis and deep emotion with which he said in the east room of the executive mansion to a company of clergyman and others who called to pay him their respects in his darkest days of our civil conflict -- gentleman he said, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation, the justice and goodness of god. when it events were very threatening and prospects very dark, i still hope that in some way that man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just and god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith. it was an anchor to his soul both sure and steadfast. by dwelling constantly on your words and actions, our beloved president, your people will have an illustrious character before their eyes. if not content with the image of your mortal frame, look on his more valuable form and features of your mind. busts and statues, like their originals, are frail and perishable. but you our lamented friend and head, delineated with truth and fairly consigned to posterity will reside yourself triumphing over the injuries of time. let us pray. mighty god and loving father, we commend time mercy the solo by some -- humble servant abraham praying that having opened unto him the gates of larger life he may be received more and more into by loving presence, that he may enter into the blessing promised to all. grant us by thy grace the cherish of the good work done in him and by the agency of empowering spirit may we be enabled to carry forth the ideals of liberty for which he labored and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. remembering and i great mercies and loving kindness, we ask these things for the sake of a holy name, amen. ♪ >> it is my honor and privilege to introduce to you a woman i met a few months ago who i will call a very good friend. [applause] >> governor, mrs., distinguished guests, we have actors were very distinguished. ladies and gentlemen and 1865 the funeral of abraham lincoln was a dark and difficult time in life. how honored we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1865. it truly has been an honor. [applause] there are a couple of additions we want to add to the program that i think you will all appreciate. with the pallbearers please come forth -- would the pallbearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the actual history. we were able to do that within our pallbearers. i know they are coming. katie: would you be kind enough gentlemen to come along the front here. and, if you can, single file. as a genealogist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you all to know right now is within these pallbearers, we have direct descendents of the original pallbearers. would you please stand -- step forward, those of you who are descendents, please step forward. [applause] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are re-creating the role their ancestor played, and i am truly honored that they are here. i want to thank the springfield choral society and the community members i have no idea how many -- i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them -- [applause] their director has had to put up an awful lot with me. [laughter] [applause] i also want to thank the band over here. [applause] while we are doing this, we also need to thank our interpreter today. [applause] i would like to now, as a commander and the crew from the uss abraham lincoln who have honored springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. [applause] they will be placing a wreath at the fault, and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me, you will see it when it is son. we will let them get on with their great work. commander and crew, we are honored to have you here. [applause] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here but around the world. the gentleman that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it is difficult. an extraordinary man was part of our group, and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it is now to make sure that keith is represented here with that anti-chair. -- that empty chair. [applause] we also had two alternates for the clergy, one of them is reverend anderson. the other is malcolm shotwell. and i'm grateful to them for always being able to pinch hit when we need it. [applause] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit into history yet again. general hooker, the rest of the program, sir, is yours. general hooker: abraham lincoln our favorite son, our neighbor, our friend, taken from us far too soon did live to see a house divided. was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787. pennsylvania, 1787. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788. maryland, 1788. south carolina, 1788. new hampshire, 1788. virginia, 1788. new york, 1788. north carolina, 1789. rhode island, 1790. vermont, 1791. kentucky, 1792. tennessee, 1796. ohio 1803. louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi, 1817. illinois, 1818. alabama, 1819. maine, 1720. missouri, 1721. arkansas, 1836. michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa, 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1860. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada, 1864. and the war was over. [gunshot] [applause] and now, he belongs to the ages. thank you. [applause] [gunshots] ♪ >> that brings to an end in reenactment of lincoln's funeral in springfield illinois. in just a minute, the university of illinois scholar michael burling game will be joining us to take your calls and talk about this day. he's the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." 748-8901 is a number for mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on facebook. professor burling game, what was it like 150 years ago? michael: very similar. the conditions that prevailed today are quite similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? michael: yes. his widow was upset by the plans made to have him buried in the center of town. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge, which is north of the center of town. she claims that it was her husband's wish. she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago, until authorities bowed to her wishes. it was legitimate, because the widow has the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. she was not there. she was so grieve-stricken by the assassination, that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination. her older son, robert, came out here. but he was the only family member that made it to springfield for the occasion. >> today's events, how accurate from your research? michael: based on what i have discovered, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making this as historically accurate and authentic as possible. professor, what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day? michael: i assume the crowd dispersed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. he is a professor at the university of illinois springfield and a lincoln next bird. caller: hi. my question is, the symbolic vote that the local springfield committee made, i think there was about 16 members. would that vote, is it symbolic to vote on or in the president's wife's wishes. if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on another plot? michael: it is not entirely clear what would happen if the 8-7 vote has been reversed. it is possible that she would have insisted to bury him elsewhere. the funeral vault the neath the capital had been created for george washington, but he is buried in mount vernon. there is an empty space, as it were. >> 20 days between his death and his funeral. how do they preserve the body? michael: with embalmers. one of the more alarming aspects is that the funeral train proceeded from washington to baltimore, then philadelphia, the new york, harrisburg, and so one. albany, buffalo, cleveland, chicago, then springfield. the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artist were hard-pressed from keeping the corpse of looking like a mummy. by the time he reached here, he was more like a mummy then the man in real life. >> is it what we call an open casket when he was there? michael: yes open casket. caller: i would like to know how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred? wasn't there a fear about the tomb wasn't finished yet and they put him somewhere inside of it -- i'm not sure. michael: i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the vault before it was closed rapidly. but it was a while. >> his body has been at oak ridge ever since, correct? michael: correct. caller: i would just like to make a comment. the program was outstanding except for the fact that i don't feel that the taurus and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful. of our fallen president. i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible shameful way to act, laughing and cheering on when they are carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. do you know how many people were at oak ridge on that day? michael: i'm sorry, i don't. caller: hello. how many years did abraham live in springfield? michael: mr. lincoln moved into the house in 1844 and left in 1861, so he was there for 17 years. the house that we know today was not there until 1856. most of the time that lincoln spent in that house, it was a one story modern house. it was a the last five years that they lived in a house with the extra story added, that was done by mrs. lincoln. when we visit the house, we get a distorted view of what it looked like. it was much more cramped than what we find when we go to the house today. >> if people come to visit springfield, what will they see that is reflected of abraham lincoln and his life? michael: there is a great deal here. it is what i somewhat irreverently referred to as the holy land. you have the lincoln home, the lincoln tomb, the lincoln law office, and the old state capitol where he served as the legislator as a young man and where he gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station from which he departed for washington in 1861 and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so, there is a great deal to be seen. on top of that, you have abraham lincoln's museum, which is quite a magnificent place for visitors to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham lincoln. so, please come. >> c-span was live with the opening of that museum. you can find that at c-span.org if you would like to watch our coverage. caller: hello. are there any other immediate family members of abraham lincoln buried their? michael: yes. mrs. lincoln is buried here and willie is buried here and eddie is buried here. all three sons -- three of the four sons are buried here. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. he served as a captain during the war, and as a military veteran, his wife thought he should be buried and arlington cemetery. when i discovered that, i went out to arlington to visit his grave, and i was startled to see that his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> what was mary todd lincoln's life like in springfield? michael: she was not very popular in springfield. she had antagonized her sisters she had antagonized neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband step. she spent time in chicago, spent time abroad. only in the later years did you come back to springfield. so she was rather unpopular, and that's why she stayed away. lincoln was asked by his friend what he planned to do after his second term was over, and he said that he planned to return to springfield, but mrs. lincoln didn't want to. caller: good afternoon. i was calling to ask the gentleman, in the reenactment today, with the casket carried is that his actual casket or a replica? michael: i'm sorry -- >> was at a repit a replica? michael: yes, it is a replica. i didn't know where it is stored. caller: hi. it is an honor to speak to you. i wanted to ask, can you talk about what happened with robert lincoln. 30 or 40 years later, when they had to go into the tomb and open up the casket, check something about the president can you talk about why that was necessary, please? michael: i'm not intimately familiar with that story. but there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the president, and the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i cannot give you more details about that. >> what do you teach at the university of illinois? michael: i teach a course on the reconstruction, and a seminar on abraham lincoln. caller: i was wondering if this is the first time there has ever been a reenactment of his interment. if not why 150 years later? why has there never been one before and why now? michael: i don't know the answer to that. i know that the people that have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have been extremely conscientious. it is a good question. i don't have the answer to your question. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? michael: no, there are no lineal descendents. robert litan had a son, but he died young. caller: i thought they tried to take his body several times, so his body was actually moved. michael: yes, the body was actually moved around. there has been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body. it was the gang that could not shoot straight, and it failed but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil future attempts. >> why the train route that was taken from washington back to springfield? michael: prof. burlingame: the train ride which re-created the train ride he took from illinois to washington. chicago was added on the return trip. it was undertaken and part two allow -- to allow the public to express morning, not just for abraham lincoln, but the outpouring of grief it was accompanying the funeral train was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war, many of him could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buriedin in unmarked graves. and so in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they live in similar communities. and so, when a family member was dying, you would be present with that person. you would attend the funeral and the like. and this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands of thousands of people could not do that. and so the train ride was a kind of cathartic exercise which allowed the nation, at least the north, to engage and morning not only for the fallen leader but for their fall in love points. that i think is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin. one of the most striking things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the reminiscences of people who as children were taken to see the train. as they worote about it in later years, they were more struck by the fact not that they saw the train itself but that they saw tears in their parent's eyes. host: who are some of the dignitaries that attended abraham lincoln's funeral? prof. burlingame: the dignitaries that attended the funeral work as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurnee, who the preacher at the new york avenue presbyterian church where president lincoln attended worship services during his presidency. bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church, the largest church in the country at that time. and local authorities including his good friends who had worked with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the potomac in 1863. and several other people of that sort. host: but not ulysses s. grant? prof. burlingame: no. host: juan, georgia. go ahead. caller: professor burlingame? i happened to live in springfield in the 1940's. i lived west of town. [voice breaking up] i used to walk from the capitol building to petersburg where lincoln's village was. and back that day to get, earn a badge. we had a well on the front lawn and i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts from all over the country. my sunday school teacher, i attended the first methodist church in springfield on n fit street. and my sunday school teacher was judge logan's. grandson. we heard many stories about mr. lincoln. i do not remember a lot of them, i was seven years old, but judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. yes. and -- his grandson in atlanta right now. and i talked to him not too long ago. host: michael birmingham, who is judge logan? prof. burlingame: judge logan was lincoln's second law partner. he had three law partners. he started off with john stewart with whom he served in the legislature and in the blackhawk war. his second law partner with stephen t logan. stephen to logan was probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very incidental in teaching lincoln the law. and lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln cannot get along very well with his own father. he was rather estranged from his own father. older men in positions of authority like judge logan served as surrogate fathers for lincoln. he was one of the most important. he was also political ally. they were good members of the whig party together. and champions of the republican party. and judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge logan. there are many people in springfield whose ancestors are close to lincoln. in fact, this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. my ancestor was closer to lincoln than yours. i horn in by saying well, my great-grandfather was lincoln's ambassador to china but that does not cut any ice and spring field. host: just doing a little bit of math and up to 1920 there were a lot of people living in springfield who had actually known abraham lincoln. did anyone -- prof. burlingame: up until that time, yes. host: did anyone ever do or history? prof. burlingame: yes. there was quite a lot of oral history done. one of the great contributions to lincoln's studies was an oral history project that was undertaken by his law partner william herndon. as soon as the president died, herndon corresponded with an interview people in indiana and illinois and kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on lincoln . then in subsequent years newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and interview people for -- who knew lincoln. those interviews are externally valuable and they can be found in newspapers and they can be found in the field notes and research notes of the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln, a life to go to brown the university in providence, rhode island, which is an excellent collection because john hay, his assistant personal secretary went to brown. and i discovered a whole cache of valuable interviews that had been conducted by haye, and also by his fellow secretary in the white house. all kinds of new information. yes, there is a treasure trove or reminisces about lincoln. they have to be treated with caution because people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. as mark twain once said, the older i get the more vividly i remember things that never happened. but if you use reminiscences in conjunction with contemporary documents, they can be extremely revealed to it i have made good use of those. host: michael burlingame. the abraham lincoln association book prize in 1996. his book won the 2010 lincoln prize. what, about 1000 pages you have a netbook? prof. burlingame: no, it is 2000 pages. it weighs nine pounds. don't drop it on your foot. because it is so big and clumsy, i recommend, the 200 p0 pages are awkward to hold i recommend that people get it on kindle or ipad. they should be warned that as soon as you download abraham lincoln a life, your device becomes much heavier. host: craig is calling from pennsylvania. caller: hello, professor. my question has to do with the reenactors carrying the coffins. i assume that they were representing the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the old ones who carry the coffin of president lincoln from -- all the way from washington to spring field. in springfield and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the so-called pallbearers and the veteran reserve corps. and secondly, my understanding the veteran reserve corps actually received a medal of honor for their honorary duty in guarding and escorting the body of president lincoln. prof. burlingame: the veteran reserve corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i did not know the story about the medal of honor. that is quite remarkable. that is a remarkable fact. i'm glad to learn it. host: mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon. you're on with professor michael burlingame in o ak ridge cemetery, in spring field, illinois. caller: there was a caller earlier who asked about what happened later in the day and i came across a quote in a book i have called "20 days." and it was published -- back in 1965. and it says later that day back in springfield a crowd went to stand in front of the governor's mansion and listen to the band of the st. louis regimen which had come to march and the funeral procession. serenade the governor. it was the first time quick time is it was heard in springfield in three weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. prof. burlingame: that is a touching story. thanks. caller: it is a wonderful book. i pulled it off my shelf. i had it in my lap watching the reenactment today. so it has been nice. prof. burlingame: it is a remarkable book. a huge collection of materials. that he compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. it is the repository of one of the best image collections of lincoln in the country. host: we have been live in springfield for several hours on american history tv. if you missed any of it, and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time, everything we have shown today will re-air on c-span 3 on the weekend. lisa from california, hi, lisa. caller: hello. host: go ahead, ma'am. caller: i wanted to know was it lincoln's -- what was lincoln's favorite food? host: what made you curious about that? calllerer: i don't know. they were talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat? host: let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. prof. burlingame: friend of mine,, his favorite food was chicken fricassee and mashed potatoes and strober shortcake. i've a friend who has written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he of the sizes that is lincoln 's -- emphasizes that as lincoln 's favorite meal. he is famously not a foodie. his assistant presidential secretary said he was a man who was not much of a connoisseur of, or gourmet. that he ate what was put before him without complaining. he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers would travel around from one county seat to the next every fall and spring out here in central illinois, and all the other lawyers would grouse about the food but lincoln would not. one day, even his legendary patientsce wore thin. and he said to the house sir with this after dinner beverages coffee. would you please bring me tea? if this is tea would you please bring me coffee? how was that for a gentle way to register a complaint. host: hi mike. caller: hi fellas. you pledge before there were no direct descendents of abraham and lincoln alive. however, nancy hanks, her sister is tom hanks great great great grandmother. i thought that was kind of neat. prof. burlingame: right. so there is a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to lincoln's mother side. but no descendents of lincoln himself, that his, his son or his children did not have grandchildren who then also had children of their own. host: margaret in des moines. hi, margaret. caller: hi. i was wondering if lincoln was buried in spring field illinois, they always told me he was buried in a statue of lincoln in washington d.c. so where was he originally buried? prof. burlingame: he was buried out here but at the lincoln memorial, the lincoln memorial on the mall in washington is a great tribute to him. but he is not buried there. host: go ahead, sir. prof. burlingame: i was going to say, of course it is a magnificent trivia to lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things about the lincoln memorial, as you look at the statue, if you face to the right eisai -- whoa -- you see -- whoa! [laughter] host: i take it something went flying. did the wind grab something? prof. burlingame: a tent blew over. everybody ok? host: sounds windy out there. prof. burlingame: but anyway, when you go to the lincoln memorial one of the striking things you see is not just a magnificent statue but also the second inaugural address, the text on the right-hand wall and the -- and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. host: if you cannot get through on the phone lines, you can try social media @c-span history is american history's twitter address, or join the conversation on abraham lincoln@facebook.com/c-span history. theresa, lebanon, indiana. caller: hello. host: hi. hello. caller: you had a question from a caller asking about the movement of lincoln's body within his tomb. andf years ago, when i was a very small child, nine or 10 years old, i read a story in look magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure it was indeed him in the coffin. and i remember the story well because it freaked me out terribly because he describes in detail the condition of his skin the condition of his clothing, and everything else. and then he told the story about why he was there. and that story stayed with me forever until a few years ago when i googled the story again and the man passed away in the 1980's or something. but he was very young. they said they were moving him to make sure the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his body being stolen. and another course and its place. that is what i remember reading from look magazine. prof. burlingame: speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend, a woman who is reading to her four-year-old son a book about lincoln. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. it's a return to his mother and said mommy, do i have the story right? the president went to the theater and he was watching the play, then he got shot while watching the play but he did not die until the next morning. his mother said, that's right. the boy thought about that and thought about that. then he said well, at least you got to see the end of the play. host: up next -- prof. burlingame: this is a true story. host: john in lake city, florida. you are on american history tv. caller: thank you for what you're doing. i have one question and one something to see if you can answer. the first is regarding the mythology behind president lincoln, the great the mensa paid her, i do not believe he knew that term and it was a term that was invented by the media -- the great emancipator. secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a tyrant when in reality my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution his adversaries did the same but yet, i see authors such as the kennedy brothers continually downgrade him in this manner. i do not understand why that is. prof. burlingame: there are cranks and lunatic fringe in all fields, and i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking thing about lincoln during the civil war is that the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than during the war with france in 1798 when the congress passed the alien and sedition acts which tried to crush the jeffersonian republican party. much less repressive than world war i when this sedition and espionage acts were passed witchcraft down very severely-- which crackdown very severely on all forms of dissent. world war ii when 120,000 japanese americans were incarcerated with no trial, no due process and the like. the striking thing about the civil war is how much there was suppression -- was not how how much the suppression of civil liberties, but how little. especially considering how it was a very serious domestic, civil war were seven times was much more prominent than it was in world war i or world war ii. the main complain about lincoln 's civil liberties is that he suspended the privilege of the write of habeas corpus but the constitution says the privilege may be suspended in times of domestic rebellion or foreign invasion. the original language of that portion of the constitution set the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in times of domestic -- or foreign invasion. they cut out the phrase by the legislature. it was clear the president had that authority. so, lincoln's record on civil liberties is distorted by people's -- people like thomas dilorenzo. host: a minute ago we were showing entrance to the tune with the iron doors at oak ridge of the above. -- to the tomb. was that built for ever have lincoln and what you see when you go through those iron doors? prof. burlingame: i cannot say for certain. i'm not sure was created certain for him. host: you have never been through those doors huh? prof. burlingame: right. host: so are visitors allowed to go? prof. burlingame: no. no the tomb itself is entered from a very different angle. and different elevation. host: oh, up the stairs. prof. burlingame: right. host: mike in columbus, ohio. yes, sir. go ahead, professor. prof. burlingame: i was just going to say that the tomb on the monument above the tomb is really quite striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the direction of the monument was -- the erection of the monument that mrs. lincoln insisted that the monument be buried by the tomb. she had every right to insist on bearing her where she saw fit. she did not have the right to insist on where the monument would be placed, but she was rather -- a rather imperious woman when she got her way. caller: professor, i wanted to ask you -- was abraham lincoln a good lawyer? did you get along with the news media and has history made him bigger than he really was? prof. burlingame: um, he was a good lawyer. he was not a great lawyer but he was a good provincial lawyer. very capable. and what th -- with the news media he got along very well. this was something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries john hey, two young men in their 20's write for newspapers, right defenses of the administration's annex the nations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments. that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york and missouri and elsewhere. and so he wanted to have the newspapers cover him favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate with the public that was very effective was an innovation on his part to write public letters to newspaper editors or two critics. -- to critics. they would get reprinted in newspapers of the day. in lieu of press, this, these were techniques that lincoln used to cultivate the press. was he bigger? has history made him bigger than he deserves? i don't think so. as time goes by, we have come to appreciate him as a larger and figure than even we appreciate today. host: james tweets. my mother tells me that she has an ancestor that was in lincoln 's from your area are -- funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? prof. burlingame: you can go to the abraham lincoln presidential library. the reference librarians would be eager to help you. host: garrtett is calling in from hanscom air force base. where is that? caller: it is between bedford and lexington. host: in kentucky? caller: no messages is. thank you for c-span. and professor, thank you for the book. -- no, massachusetts. my question is, since this is about the funeral. i had a question about what was -- would lincoln have done if he were still alive during that time? an additional question, do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? prof. burlingame: no you do not have to pay. on the question of, the question you pose is one that historians have try to answer for many years and that is what would've happened if lincoln had lived? when i was a student in school, chest after the punic war, i would've thought that lincoln would have been crucified by congress the way his successor andrew johnson was. lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during the war. december 1863, basically saying if you lay down your arms and except the evolution of slavery there will not be any punishment except for the highest ranking members of the confederate military and civilian government. then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that and congress objected vigorously and impeached him and he came within one vote of being removed from office. the argument that was prevalent when i was a student many years ago was that that is just what would've happened to lincoln. most historians do not agree with that now. because they say that what lincoln was doing in december of 1863 was to encourage southerners to throw in the towel, to surrender. they had suffered grievous defeats at gettysburg, vicksburg, fort hudson chattanooga. no reasonable southerner could believe they were going to win the war on the ground, but if they were offered general instead of specific peace terms, they would turn the tall. that motive no longer existed once robert e lee surrender. two days later on april 11 1855, lincoln gave a speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage, at least for the veterans of the union army and for the veyry intelligent, by which we assume he meant literate. frederick douglass who was in the audience heard the president give that speech and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. but frederick douglass said later, i should have known and we should've known that that was a terribly important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statement ship in the school of rail splitting and to split a rail, you insert a wedge into the log. then having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should've known that that is what lincoln was doing that day. and john wilkes booth heard that speech and he knew that that was a really significant speech. and he turned his colleagues and said, that means n word citizenship. by god that is the last speech he is ever going to give and i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln. not because lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation and not because he supported the 13th amendment abolishing slavery but because he called for black voting rights. i think it is appropriate for us in the 21st century to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king. or any of those people who were murdered in the 1960's as a champion the civil rights revolution of the 20th century. host: we have only got four minutes left with our guest. if you are interested in making comments are joining the conversation, go to our facebook page. quite a lively conversation going on. facebook.com/c-span history. robert in murfreesboro, tennessee p you are on. caller: i was wondering -- the southern generals or the southern congress was at lincoln 's funeral? prof. burlingame: i'm sorry i did not get that question. host: southern representative at abraham lincoln's funeral? any southern generals? prof. burlingame: no. there were nine generals from virginia who served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army, no. host: did robert ely have any reaction? -- robert e. lee have any reaction? prof. burlingame: i'm sure he did but i cannot tell you what it was off the top of my head. host: brian jeffersonville, indiana. caller: professor, a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of visiting the abc lincoln's -- abe lincoln's presidential library as well as the tomb. are most of abe lincoln's artifacts there at the library and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country? prof. burlingame: well, there are many artifacts here. and there is a huge collection of documents related to lincoln particular his pre-presidential life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. when i was writing my book, abraham lincoln, a life, i spent many summers here is an invaluable collection of. documents and newspapers and archival material. the library of congress also has a huge collection. lincoln's presidential papers or at the library of congress. and there is a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. many of those wound up in the national archives, and they are cubic acres of papers and conscientious crew in springfield has been poring through those archives looking for new documents. they find some remarkable documents not just to lincoln but some new documents by lincoln. bless their work. host: oak ridge cemetery is the location where university of illinois professor michael burlingame has joined us. his book is called "abraham lincoln, a life." two volume book. prof. burlingame: right. be sure to buy it. you do not have to read it. host: thanks for being with us. prof. burlingame: thank you very much. host: everything if seen today, the funeral procession through reenactment through springfield, everything you have seen today will re-air this evening on american history tv at 10:00 p.m. eastern time. american history tv is 48 hours of american history every weekend on c-span 3. thanks for being with us. >> with live covers of the u.s. house on c-span and the senate on c-span 2on c-span 3 we comment that coverage by showing you the most relevant congressional hearings. then on weekends, c-span 3 is the home to american history tv with programs that tell our, including six unique series, the civil warsth anniversary visiting battlefields and key events. american artifacts touring museums and historic sites to discover what artifacts reveal about america's past. history bookshelf with the best-known american history writers. the presidency, looking at the policies and legacies of our nation's commanders in chief. lectures in history, with top college professors delving into america's past. and our new series -- reeo america
springfield." tell us what we are going to see today and what's going to happen behind you this afternoon. >> this afternoon, you will see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 150 years ago. it started on the square downtown and it will take probably half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery, which is on the north side of springfield. that procession will be a reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. there will be a number of divisions with reenactors in those divisions. you will see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you are going to see a horse which would have in abraham lincoln's force, bob, led by an african-american henry brown coming into the cemetery. and then there is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. it is there lincoln's body as well as his son willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> why was president lincoln buried in springfield? >> this was his home for 24 years before he went to washington d.c. only a short time before he left greenfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. mary and abraham lincoln were president on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the speeches were made. the apocryphal story is that on the way home, abraham lincoln said this is where i would like to be buried. >> you mentioned mary todd lincoln. yet she did not leave washington dc and travel to springfield. why is that? >> mary todd lincoln's life was one -- she had to face any many tragedies and this was perhaps the greatest of all -- her husband the assassinated, and she was rightfully devastated by that. she was just not emotionally capable of making that trip. her son, robert todd lincoln was there with her. >> if you look on your screen, there are some of the reenactors. who are those folks in the tents and how long have they been camped out? >> some of them have been here since last wednesday and thursday night, when i was out here, we came out for dinner. a lot of the tents were out at that time and it was a beautiful scene. it was beautiful and the oak ridge cemetery gate the gate was lit up and across the road and across the road worthy tents with the fires -- were the tents with the fires and lit for the evening. >> we are to an expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's numeral. abraham lincoln died here in washington on april 15. his funeral on may 4 in springfield, illinois. what happened in the intervening time? what was going on in a couple of weeks back in 1865? those days during the time of his assassination in return and burial in springfield are kind of somewhat the subject of the book i have here, it was still with a lot of distress to the nation as to what was occurring. as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house, it was autopsied and involved. -- and him bald -- there were viewings there and it was taken to the train station and laced in a cattle car owned one of the railroads, a car for the director of that railroad. the funeral train left washington dc and had a number of people on the train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. the train made a very long long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city. the story is teddy roosevelt watched the procession from one of the windows. the train supposedly would not exceed 30 miles an hour. all of the tracks were cleared for this train and there was a lead train that went before it to make sure the tracks were clear. it eventually ended up in chicago and there was an enormous funeral in chicago lasting a couple of days with the viewing of the body at the courthouse. then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4. at every crossing in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered, often with bonfires and in many instances there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks . they were decorated with evergreens and flowers, even in the middle of the night, the review hundreds of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers today we have a couple of more things we will show folks. we going to look at the train station in springfield and have more about president lincoln's train. how may people came to springfield in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? >> that is an amazing question. the number is not certain that springfield at that time had a population of about 15,000 people. the estimate is between 75000 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were special trains from many of the midwestern cities that came into springfield and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes and remarkably, it was the first time a pullman train had been used and it was a sleeping car. because of that use during the lincoln funeral, it gained acceptance by the railroads as another aspect of the passenger train. that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> we're looking at live pictures rum springfield illinois. a reenactment today of the funeral of abraham lincoln. we see some of the folks dressed up, the reenactors in costume. are these local reenactors or do people come from all over the country to participate in this event marks -- in this event? >> that's a wonderful question. i was out here two days ago and a couple from orlando, florida were here. they were dressed in. costumes that were absolutely spectacular. -- they were dressed in. costumes -- i offered to take their pictures together. that's how i got to have this conversation with them and they had come for this event from orlando florida. she gave me this funeral badge -- i don't know if you can see that are not. she made it to hand out to people in springfield. i've met a number of actors from midwestern states, i met a german from lancaster pennsylvania and his reenactment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military got on it -- his military gone on a trailer. there is a subculture of reenactors in the united states. they have been here and many of the people you see in costumes i think are from out of town. many are from springfield, but it is hard to tell how to divide where they are from. it is a pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is you have lived in springfield for 47 years, most of your life. what is the mood of the springfield community about this reenactment? are people excited to host this event? >> it is remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been at least 10 different band concert in the last two days. the churches around springfield and these band concerts are reenactors. they come from all over the united states. there was a symphony last evening -- the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church and it was packed. at the edwards home, they are having a reenactment tea. it's a remarkable participation by the entire community for this event. i think everybody recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life and they just want to be a part of that, too honor him and commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> we are going to show a clip now and come back. we are waiting on this procession which i am told is historically accurate, the procession from the train station to the cemetery. >> they are following basically the same route that was followed in 1865. there might be a slight variation because of some of the roads there but it is very, very near the original route that was taken. it is about a mile and half from downtown to the cemetery here. i don't know how fast they are marching or walking but they will be here shortly. >> we are talking to richard hart, a springfield resident as we're live covering this reenactment of president abraham lincoln's general here on c-span three3 -- c-span3. we are waiting for this procession to make its available closer to your location. what's take you to springfield is old let's take you over to historian p.j. staab. p.j. staab: after an estimated 75,000 mourners viewed the president's body in this room, pallbearers carried him from this location to the hearse which made a slow procession to oak ridge cemetery where thousands more lined the streets to watch the hearse carrying president lincoln on his final journey. special events and reenactments would not be complete without the abraham lincoln hearse at the center of it all. getting involved, one might ask how did our family get involved? after a meeting with the chair of the 2015 lincoln funeral coalition, i was asked, can i find a suitable hearse? i responded with, sure, we will. not really knowing at that time what it would entail. katie's countless hours of hard work and her dedication fueled our family's passion to get involved and performed the best of our ability. katie is just one of the great people many of the great people i have met along the way. another person i would like to mention this evening's artist ray simon. ray recently completed a commissioned, original life portrait yet to be seen, "the life and legacy of abraham lincoln." after i began researching, i found out the hearse was destroyed by a fire in st. louis, missouri, at the livery stable in 1887. all that was left was a photo that you see here and two silverplate medallions recently found for all to see. after the initial research, we could not find a suitable hearse that adequately represented the hearse used for abraham lincoln. much like the historical account of 150 years ago. in an effort to get back and contribute to this historic anniversary, our family decided to assemble a team of historians artisans, and old-school craftsme to reverse engineer and re-createn the elaborate and ornate hearse. this is a mission that is not only vital to the vienna -- to the reenactment but a true honor and privilege for our family to play such an important role in this historic moment. it even fits our own family's mission, to remember, to educate, and to heal. we quickly prioritized this historic project into three phases. phase one began no member of 2013 -- no member of 2013 with the design, guidance, and research phase. the object was to find the best photographs, plural, available. we could only find one. engage historians to find out more information, engage architects and fabricating consultants to determine the scale, dimensions, and provide a blueprint for the build. professional guidance of this sort was sought by none other than one of our local architects, john shafer andrew martin of springfield illinois. attorneys for our guidance was the sole and firm -- sorling firm jim fehey. the search for the builders began. the pressure builds to understand how to use old-school craftsmen to reverse engineer and re-create an 18th-century vehicle in the 21st century. we had to determine the scale the dimension. we had to review the scale revise, and start the process all over until we got it just right. we knew the rear wheel had 16 spokes. when you get the 16 together you have to have a certain size d hub. that brings the diameter out to about 56 inches for the rear wheel, which is about here. from the woodcut carving shown previously, i measured from the receiving vault roofline at the gable end to the ground. almost got kicked out of the cemetery that evening. [laughter] p.j. staab: until they saw the plate on the car and said, "oh that is just one of the stabb abs." at the bottom of the gable when you measure down to the ground it is about 13 feet. to the top of the plume of the hearse to the ground matches that exact height, 13 feet. the hearse build can now commence. >> again, we are back live in springfield, illinois, on american history tv on cspan3. a reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral 150 years ago this weekend. with us at the cemetery, you can see richard hart, the springfield resident and author. we are going to let you have a chance to ask questions or weigh in with your thoughts on this event. our phone lines for you on the east or central time zone. one for those of you in the mountain or pacific time zones. you get a chance to ask a question if you like. i'm going to ask one now. the procession we are waiting to make its way up to the cemetery, and the reenactment of the actual speeches and funeral ceremony itself, are those historically accurate? will they be accurate representations of what took place 150 years ago? >> i believe so. i have seen the program and compared it richard hart: i believe so, very much exactly the same. that will be very exciting to see that. >> who were some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's general 150 years ago and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at abraham lincoln's funeral? richard: there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the prominent minister in the united states at that time. he came and he delivered the primary eulogy for abraham lincoln. in addition to that, there were photographers that came from philadelphia chicago -- there were reporters, believe it or not, that came from the newspapers, the new york papers, the washington a purse and -- the washington papers, one person who came that was a young reported -- a young reporter at the time formed the associated press. many of the photographs these photographers took here in springfield are still in existence and there is actually an exhibit in springfield that has all of those photographs. >> after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson became president, is that right? richard: yes. >> did he attend the funeral? richard: no. >> why not? richard: i think you have to remember that in addition to this numeral transpiring in a time of 90 days in american history, you had congress passing the 13th amendment freeing the slaves, it had to be approved by the states and i was not done until december of that year. you had lincoln delivering his second inaugural address, which is a masterpiece and then you have lincoln delivering a speech saying he believed certain black men should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e lee surrendering to grant and bringing about the closing of the civil war and the country was euphoric after that. been within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated and everybody went into extreme morning. -- extreme mourning. because of that, there was a lot of uncertainty about the government and what was going to happen. a lot of people just stayed in washington. there was also the search for john wilkes booth and any conspirators. that took the front page of many newspapers, so there were a variety of things occurring and the people who came to springfield, and they were numerous from out of springfield the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 on the east coast, 2:00 at your time, let's take our first caller. caller: i just have a general question. host: no angela. i'm sorry. we are going to work on our own call and as we try to get that could together, let me ask another question. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we are seeing? are these accurate costumes these reenactors are wearing? richard: absolutely. they are very accurate. the lady walking toward us -- what i think you have the screen before, that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. one year ago that did not exist. where we are sitting his afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bramble. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate. that was re-created this year based upon photographs from the time. it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. it was dedicated in december of last year and is through those gates the procession will come. it was done, quite frankly because of this event today, but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. it connects to lincoln park, which is immediately to the east and so it will become part of this total neighborhood and the people of the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. what you are looking at now is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see the reenactor 10 -- reenactor tents and reenactors there. ar absolutely accurate and they are fanatic about every aspect of their costumes, the tenants their flags, the food they eat the betting they have, everything is a re-creation of the time they represent. that is what i was saying the other evening when we came out here -- it was absolutely beautiful, the white tents, they had fires going, it was really something. you can see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. >> we're going to try one more time with the phone calls. we're going to see if we can get bob from bob, go ahead, you are on c-span three. caller: i understand that robert lincoln was at the final internment of abraham lincoln read is he buried there you go -- buried there? host: yes, the children are buried there except for robert. robert todd lincoln, by all accounts wished to be buried there. he was survived by his wife and she thought he deserved his own separate identity and monument. he is buried in washington dc it is very interesting. before he died he was brought back to the united states and was actually there read with his grandfather abraham. tom was taken out of this cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his fall -- with his father. robert todd lincoln is not varied here all of the other family members are. robert todd is buried in washington dc. host: we will go to boise, idaho. you are on. caller: good afternoon. i have another question about robert todd lincoln, how did he get to the cemetery? i read somewhere he was staying a couple of days in washington with his mother and let his father take care of him while he headed out the internment. richard: you are absolutely correct. this is one of the very interesting things i found when i was doing the research for the book. the robert todd lincoln did not intend to come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, the supreme court justice and who had been the judge of the circuit here in illinois, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents, took them with him back to bloomington. but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting he sent a telegram to robert todd lincoln. i will paraphrase it, but it basically said robert, it is imperative you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends they said that if you do not that you would regret it for the rest of your life area you should make preparations to come immediately. robert got on the train and did to springfield. he stayed here's -- stayed here for several days. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where it eventually the monument would be constructed. a perhaps you will be able to see that later on. host: the reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral, making some rule that some room for your phone calls. if you're out in the mountain or pacific time zone's -- we will go to idaho with jeff. go on ahead, you are on with our guest. caller: i was born and raised 30 miles from there. in a town called taylorville. my question is what, if any role did his former law partner play in the funeral? richard: that is a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's long -- lincoln's law partner at the time -- there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. he played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, when i was doing this research, that he did not play a larger part. some of the other townsfolk played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what is to be done in planning the funeral. i don't know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield he was to be buried. the local people all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. it was a private residence on a hill. these men in the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built between the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln did not want that to occur, and she threatened to remove him from spring field or not allow him be carried to spring field if that was done. a she insisted he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. her wishes one out. host: we will take a call from florida. terry, go ahead. you are on the air. caller: i would like to thank c-span3 for this program. my question is i understand after he was placed in the two that there was threats to steal the body or attempts to steal the body. i was told he had been moved out of there and placed elsewhere until the possible threats were taking care of. and that he was later reinterred back in. i understand for a period of time the body may not have been there. i would like to find out how accurate that is. richard: that's very interesting. we are getting far past the time of the actual funeral. to recount, where he was initially placed was a receiving fault. and that receiving vault was for general use, when people could not be buried immediately. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the side of this hill. they were moved into that involved in december of 1865. there was a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site on the top of the hill. it was there they built the first monument. you are seeing it now on the screen. this is where lincoln was buried today. that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone. after it was redone this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. as far as the people who were involved, they failed to do it. because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen, the final internment was that a whole was dug, his hottie was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. he now lies in that tomb in back of me. but he is under many feet of concrete. you should go and ask about the number of times lincoln was exhumed and reburied. there may have been a period where people were in the tomb, looking at what they thought to be the burying site of lincoln when he was not in that actual site. host: we will go up the road. you are on c-span. caller: high. in i was sitting here listening watching the events on tv and everything. i can't remember if he was basically in the war the military, or something. was there any thought of him being buried at arlington national cemetery? i was wondering about that. richard: as far as his military record, he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830's. as commander in chief he would be entitled to be buried in arlington. i don't know of any suggestion that he was and i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk about the possibility of burying him in the capital building in the vault. there had been plans for george washington. his body did stay in the capital. the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c. and perhaps chicago. i think it was part of the back and forth between mary, lincoln and springfield. i believe at some point she said we will just take him to chicago and bury him there. that is a very good question. that was not considered. host: we are going to get one more call in right now. it is bobby or richard hart. acaller: my mother is at oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. i did get to see the vault, which was open at that time. i did see the old fault and i wonder if you are going to talk about it. you started talking about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary probably on c-span, about how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob his body and take it away. where he is now is beautiful. my mother is there. it was quite an interesting. i wonder what you can tell us about that. richard: are you asking about the receiving vault? caller: it is low to the ground. i remember picturing it in my mind. was that what they called it the receiving vault? richard: it is right in back of me. i'm sitting opposite the receiving fault -- the receiving vault. that is what i was talking about earlier. can you see the receiving vault? there is an angle shot i believe. host: we can see it. richard: that is the vault. that was built way in advance of lincoln's death. it was used basically to hold bodies until the ground might thought and they can dig a grave. hethey would put them in that receiving vault. it is almost fortuitous that it was there and lincoln's body was brought there together with willies, his little son who died in washington. they were moved into the vault. further up on the hill you will see the actual monument that is there today. that was built in later years. as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was either in the receiving fault or the bolts on the hill. it was later on. i claim no expertise in that area of history. asthere are some good books you might look into on the attempts to steal his body. host: a beautiful afternoon in springfield illinois. the oak ridge cemetery. a live reenactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln. this is the 150th anniversary of that event. we are going to re-create the funeral here for you on c-span3. our guest is richard hart, sharing his expertise on the subject. as we wait for the folks dressed up in the funeral procession and period costumes, let's take you now to the town of -- where david cloak of cloak construction has been building a replica of the train car david kloke: he never rode in this car. he did not want to because there were soldiers dying everywhere, and he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this the day he died, april 15. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria virginia, as a filler job to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that because with all the war effort, i would have thought they would have been busy. but they managed to build this car. they are not sure who ordered the car. they think stanton did, the secretary of war. after his death, they converted it to the funeral car to haul his body back to springfield. >> what happened to the original train after the funeral in 1865? david kloke: union pacific owned it. dr. rant used it as a business card. they owned it for a while and then sold it to a business in colorado. the railroad bought it and sold it to some man that took it on tour. it was in st. louis, i believe a man had thought it and was going to take it to minnesota and build a building to put it in. it was on the side in minneapolis and kids started a prairie fire and it got burned in minneapolis in 1911. this was a fancy car for the time. it would have been like the air force one of its day. as you can see, it is well decorated. it will be a close representation, as close as we can get. we think we are about 95% accurate. we have had a lot of volunteers to take care of the woodwork and upholstery. three guys showed up to the upholstery work at the right time. everybody seems to come right when we need them. i built two. -- period locomotives from scratch. i have always kind of wanted to build a car. what better car to build that an historic car? the lincoln funeral car, this was the only one made like this. it was the only one made by the government or owned by the government. they always leased their cars. i talked to friends in california about building a car. we kicked it around and decided to build the lincoln funeral car because it was an historic car. it will go on and be an educational tool. a lot of people get to see this car and see what it was like in 1864, what the railroad cars looked like. they were pretty nice, as you can see. >> how long have you been working on this project? david: altogether, five years. about three. we were talking about it last night. when we lay the floorboards after the frame was built, it was last march, so i think we have done pretty well. this would have been a pilot room at one time. this is where willie's coppin was -- coffin was. willie was on this end and mr. lincoln was on the other end. we will decorate that for the funeral. the best of the car we will leave as it would have been before the funeral, as it was decorated for him. we don't have pictures of inside the car, but we have a lot of descriptions. that is also from alexandria virginia. somebody had the foresight to interview people who worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the 1920's. >> what was the central room? david: that would have been the central room -- stateroom, his bedroom,. there is not a lot of description, but we decorated it of the period. >> what are some of pieces -- the pieces in the room? david: we put in a bed that pis period. a lady who is a reenactor bought the furniture and had it be done. we don't know if it is exactly right. it is period furniture, we know that. what was in here was lost to history. >> the third room will be designed as his funeral room. his coffin will be there with two chairs which came off a slavery plantation. they were there to guard the coffin. we will have them set up on either side. we will also have the black rate drape -- black crate draped on the curtains. the carpet the exact same company that made the carpet for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it is made out of wool. it is an 18th-century carpeting that was made on a loom. they had to hand stitched some of the fabric together. we went with this, because in the descriptions -- we want with this color because in the descriptions, they talked about crimson rosettes and green leather. that is how we came up with this. david: there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all 26 states, even the southern states. mr. lincoln was all about the union, so he pick -- we figured he would want all of them. lamps we had made by a fellow in california. i met him last july. he makes lamps for the movie industry. we created what we think the lamps would like from the descriptions and pictures we have. the etching on the windows we knew that from the original window the guy in minneapolis has. so we were able to get that etching. that is correct. we had a guy in tucson that is probably the foremost expert on this car. he has built several models. he is the technical advisor. he does not have a lot of detail on the inside, but on the outside he was instrumental in getting the color. there are several of the windows that survived. there is a man in minnesota. they took it to a lab and had a pain analysis done, so we know the color is correct. we knew the inside was this kind of white off-white, they call it zinc white in the book. that is an old terminology. we have a lot of pictures of the outside of the car. there are quite a few pictures of the outside, so we think we nailed the bunting. there is supposed to be more striping on the car but our funding has been low for that. goldleaf is not chief. -- not cheap. >> we have a full railing on this end with the door which was handmade by a blacksmith, which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full set railing because that is the end they used to roll the coffin in out of the doorway. david: the trucks are brought up to modern specifications. they are all steel frame. back in the day, they would have been woodframe. they would have had a dual frame gauge that would have derailed every time they went through a switch. that was not a good idea and they fell out of favor quickly. after the war, they built everything to standard gauge which was mr. lincoln's idea. he signed a rule that the railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to tie the east and west together. he wanted to tie california to the union. he signed the transcontinental railroad act also, so he did a lot of things for this country that people do not realize. >> the real significance is we really just want to re-create history. it is a once-in-a-lifetime project. we want to educate people, especially the youngest generation on how people traveled back then. lincoln was a magnificent man. he had a great vision when he decided to sign the railroad act, and he brought the central and union pacific together so we had railroad tracks across the country. that is what made our country grow. that is what made america america, so lincoln had a wonderful vision. we are honored to salute lincoln because it is the 100 years anniversary. we are passionate about the project and lincoln himself. it was lincoln who inspired dave to build the leviathan, a locomotive engine. he realized the 150th anniversary was around the corner. he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make it happen for the 150th anniversary. host: live again from springfield, illinois, on american history tv on cspan3. the reenactment, 150 years later, of abraham lincoln's funeral. we have been waiting for the reenactors. we are told some thousand or so participating in events today, making their way up this road toward the cemetery. with us all afternoon has been our guest, springfield resident, lawyer author, richard hart, who is there. i see you are wearing your black ribbon on your suit lapel. what is that and is that historically accurate? richard: i don't know if it is historically accurate. the i told her i would wear it today. people here had these ribbons. there were a number of these ribbons made. some people have them and they are on exhibit in some of the museums. host: you can see the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us what you were seeing. richard: can you hear the bell ringing? that's the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. it is being wrong to announce the entrance of the procession into oak ridge cemetery. one of the first divisions marching in full uniform. they are coming in really slowly. i lost it. i lost the hook up. host: we will let you find the hook up. as we do that we watch this procession very solemnly. let's watch and listen here on c-span3. >> it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking very slowly. i don't know who the lady is in front here, but she certainly is not in proper military gear. you can see their instruments and they are of the period and then directly in back of them is one of the regiment. they are walking down what is known as 1st street and it's somewhat of a hill that will come down into the valley where we sit, and then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier, which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. there we see the gate, and now it's being opened. across through the gate you can see some of the tents of the reenactors. s comment for a citizen or was this very unusual and very unique to abraham lincoln? richard: i think the victorian customs were elaborate. this was the ultimate funeral. in victorian funerals it was the ultimate. it was just the history of mankind. i don't know how many millions of people came back to springfield. there were probably 100,000 visitors or the funeral. host: with those visitors have lined this route? would they have been watching this procession and all that? richard: they would have and they would have been in this valley where i am sitting across from the vault. they were divided into divisions, the people who marched into this procession. it was by their military unit. there were clergy divisions. there were lawyer divisions. it just went on and on. the official order of the procession is very interesting to read as far as all of the different institutions and military groups. >> we saw some of the military reenactors. was that a common custom, a form of respect that the military would do an event like this? >> i believe so. they are now entering the gate. they are now just coming through the gate. it's just the drum i believe. i don't believe there playing any instruments. host: let's watch and listen to them. a live coverage of this 150th anniversary. richard: this is the hearse that you see now. host: what are those things on top of the hearse? richard: this was loaned to the city of springfield for this funeral by jesse are not, i funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses. it was reconstructed. great detail and great accuracy. they have done an absolutely outstanding job of detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes on the hearse. i believe some of these horses were from the amish, around illinois. they have these workhorses. they leased them out for this occasion. the first part of the procession is approaching the receiving vault. you may not perhaps here the drumbeat. host: can you tell us a little bit about who the marshall in chief was historically and why he was the major general why was he the marshall in chief. >> i had lunch today with a lincoln scholar. i asked him that a very question because i did not know. he said he did not know either. he had a very interesting career in the united states military, both up and down. had been both successful and lost several battles. but he was in charge of this to the military aspects of it and he was in charge of this procession. he was very fond of the women. that is how the name got attached to certain aspects. now you are seeing the beautiful hearse. absolutely gorgeous. and the military -- again, drums beating. a very slow drumbeat. you can see the instruments. you are looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gate. host: that is a re-creation of the coffin of abraham lincoln. is there something specially made for the president? richard: it was a group of people with an amazing amount of research for this occasion. it has been on this display. they have done a wonderful job. here comes the reverend henry brown with the horse of abraham lincoln. he was an underground railroad conductor, he worked for the lincolns. he was living in quincy and came in springfield to lead lincolns horse in the funeral. and you can see that. that is very moving. the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. you can see the pallbearers lined up in back, walking up with the hearse. many of those are descendents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart his great-great-grandfather was taught stewart, who was a first law partner of abraham lincoln. he is in the procession today. now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault. it has become very quiet. you can see the pallbearers walking in with the white sash. the hearse is now approaching a receiving vault. host: what division is this that would be accompanying the hearst most closely that we are watching? >> there were many divisions many of them came from camp butler which was a union camp just east of springfield. many of these were units. the iron brigade, they are pulling the hearse off to the side. host: there you see the ostrich plumes. was that a common symbol of mourning in the victorian era? richard: i don't think anything approached this carriage. this carriage was probably an ultimate example of victorian funeral carriages. host: at the time 150 years ago were there for an ignorant terry's present as well is there in springfield? were foreign dignitaries present? richard: my book lists all of the various people who were here. probably 20 generals from the civil war. davis, who was a supreme court justice, there were many people. there were a number of dignitaries. a number of dignitaries came within the weeks after their burial. host: if anyone outside of the united states was able to arrive in spring field, president lincoln dying april 15, his funeral on may 4. richard: i'm not aware of any kind of diplomatic foreign representatives or any europeans that may have come before the funeral. at the end of the funeral procession in the original order proceedings, it was the colored people and others. as this came in to oak ridge cemetery on the north side of springfield, there were assembled approximately 10,000 americans to pay respects. host: we are told the first division was head up by the marshall in chief along with the brigadier general. second division was a military not assigned to the you would -- to the unit. the third division had the pallbearers. the congressional delegation and the governors. of fifth division as local government. similar organizations. delegations from universities and colleges. local fire companies. and then the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up 150 years ago. i would assume they are re-creating that to some extent. richard: the original procession of 100 50 years ago was much larger than what we have seen today. host: you can see some of the fire company there in period costumes. richard: there is a great photograph in downtown springfield right before they left on the procession. an absolutely wonderful photograph. it's interesting, you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings. the color would mean something or the way they are trained would mean something. that is a way of identifying. many of the people have the funeral medallion on, as i have had on my coat this afternoon. none of them wear black. do you know why that is? at that time only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. you were not supposed to dress in black if you are not a member of the family. ashost: i see that applied more to the ladies than the gentleman. that would have been there every day where. richard: exactly. ishost: we are watching with richard hart in spring field illinois, the reenactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln 150 years ago. when the procession has ended, i was just going to ask when the procession has got themselves all the way in then it would be a reenactment of the ceremony, including the oratory. and we are going to bring that to our viewers as well. let's watch the soldiers move in the coffin. >> you see the umbrellas there because the mass of the photographers there, just like today, in the heat of the day. so again, a live picture there on your screen from springfield illinois. it's the re-creation of the funeral that took place some 150 years ago. the uniforms of the union army, hearing the voice as well of richard hart, an expert on the subject, and a springfield resident, expert on the subject of abraham lincoln. what is your book called richard? richard: the funeral of abraham lincoln, 1865. >> how long did it take you to research all of this for that book and to put that together? how long have you been interested in this particular event in the history of abraham lincoln? richard: i collected photographs from 19th century springfield are number of time. i had a number of photographs from the funeral in 1865. i knew this funeral was coming up. i thought it was a boring topic but it is absolutely fascinating. the whole story from the time of the assassination to the time of the burial. it is an incredible story. it took me about three years. host: the event capturing the imagination of others. are these reenactors and the other people in period costumes, are they at their own expense? they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? richard: yes, it is. it can not become very expensive but the military equipment, guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for a military person, they buy. there are events where they go in there will be a huge place to buy things as -- and buy things. it can become a very expensive hobby. there is great camaraderie among the participants. you see us perform during the day but our camps at night -- it is like las vegas. they say they have a lot of fun. the body is now being taken i believe, around for a viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin you mentioned earlier in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. every town the train went through, it seemed there were enormous bouquets of flowers that would be offered. some of them were put on the outside of the train. just an outpouring of tributes. host: we talking with richard hart about this re-creation and reenactment involvement was there? was it a denominational ceremony of any sort or nondenominational? can knew -- what can you tell us about that. richard: william simpson was the minister. he was the principal speaker, i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either read psalms or other religious passages. and the music was very traditional. it seems to be a long funeral service. i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, simply because the people who spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield. lincoln had heard and thought he was an outstanding minister. the people here are assembling before a large stage that has been erected, that would not have been there at the time of the funeral. this is a large stage. flowers and different plans. one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now. the coffin as i black and -- the coffin is on a black tablecloth. you can see it now. behind that and toward the other hill here, there are assembled people in period dress. some men in top hats. some of them have parasols and umbrellas. and the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see, up the hill and back. people are standing in the and behind the vault. this stage is not something that was there that was into 1865, but perhaps everyone will get to be able to better see and hear. also, a big screen tv, and outdoor television up for everybody to see what's going on. >> let's ask that question. >> the only reason the cemetery was outstanding -- >> richard, can you hear me? >> probably one of the best examples in midwest illinois. they have been trimmed for this occasion. we had a drought several years ago and some of the oaks were taken down to the last week by volunteers. the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era. so, they are saving the tree would and making that into mementos for people who visit oak ridge >> as you can see here, the reenactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral looks like it's about to get underway. we're going to thank our guest on site there in springfield for being with us all afternoon and offering us his insight. afternoon and offering his insight. author of the book "the funeral of abraham lincoln." this is "american history tv." as you can see, this reenactment on a beautiful spring day in springfield is underway and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when the funeral reenactment itself is done we will have a chance for you to talk to a historian and we will take some more of your phone calls. ♪ ♪ [crying baby] ♪ >> good afternoon. we thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly. at this time i would like to introduce to you lynn woolsey who will portray reverend albert hale. >> let us pray. father in heaven, we acknowledge the as the author of our being and the giver of every good and perfect gift. you give life, you take it away. the lives of men and of nations are in your hands. we bow before you today believing in that presence and asking that with submissive hearts we may acknowledge the in the serious thoughts that press upon millions today. we thank that you give to this nation your servant, so mysteriously and maliciously taken from us. we thank the, father in heaven that thou did give him to your people and that he was raised in a position of power and authority that through him you have been led through to the present hopeful condition of our public affairs. before the our hearts are in grief and sorrow and we entreat the to remember especially the bereaved widows and families. we play that -- pray that in this hour of trial god gives to them the blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation that they in their grief shall see that it is not a sorrow, but under god the opening day of nebulous -- never-ending blessings. today we commit them and relatives who mourn in this distressing event we commit the people of the city and state in which he has grown up in whose affection he holds today in his death stronger than in the most powerful moment of his life. versatile god, bless us help us to cherish the memory of his life and the work on the high example he has shown. we do pray that the high purpose for which he lives may be carried to completion. god, thank the for the other example that you set us in the city year, the truth, the love of freedom, the opposition to wrong, and injustice is slavery. we pray that god will grant policy of our government touched upon in these issues may be successfully carried through her not a slave will carry shackles in the land and not a soul be found that will not rejoice in his glory and power in the hearts of this nation. god, our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who is so mysteriously called to occupy the chair of state. give unto him humility and wisdom to direct his steps, a love of righteousness and cherish the freedom of the people while he sits at the helm of the nation. our father in heaven, we pray upon the millions who have come out of bondage, remember them my brother, give to him who has taken from us, may all the people unite in their prayers their patients, their self-denial so that these may come up and take their place in the nation's citizens rejoicing in newborn privileges and the rights in which god gave and man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we ask my blessing upon all those endeavoring today to secure the public interest against the hands of an assassin and prevent the murder of those in high places. god, let i just dislike righteousness and power rid the nation of those from these evils arise. maybe union rise up and become a night -- a light on the nation of earth in future times. father in heaven, thou art just and righteous. only and all of thy doings are we simple and unworthy of privilege, but that has not dealt us after our sins. according to your iniquity there are services still to be performed here and accepted by christ our redeemer and the father and the holy spirit glory everlasting -- amen. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> benjamin cole will be playing dr. meyer. >> a reading from job, chapter 19. have pity upon me, have pity upon me my friends, for the hands of god have touched me. why do you persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh? oh, that my words were now written, that they were printed in a book, that they were graven with an iron pen and led in the rock forever. for i know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand at the latter-day upon the earth and go after my skin worms destroy the body, yet in my flesh i shall see god, whom i shall see for myself and my eyes shall behold, not another. my brains be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ >> chief justice williams, rhode island supreme court retired for reverend dr. matthew simpson. >> fellow citizens of illinois and many parts of our entire nation near the capital of does large and growing state of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove, at the vault that is about to receive the remains of our former chieftain we gather to pay a respectful tribute and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago he left his plane and quiet home, exchanging parting words with friends gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century. with his children, where they have been born and he had enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an earnest request in the hearings of some present at this hour as he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any that had fallen upon any man since the days of washington. people would offer prayer that god would aid and sustain him in the work. he left your quiet city, but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only through the vigilance of officers and the prayers of the people so that final tragedy was suspended for more than four years. how different the occasion which witnesses departure from that which witnessed his return. doubtless you expected to take him by the hand, feel his warm grasp and feel his -- see his tall form walking among you. but he was never able to return until he came with mute lips, silent framed in a coffin and a weeping nation following as his mourners. there have been other mornings when kings and warriors have fallen -- but never has there been such morning is that which has accompanied this funeral procession for our loved one who now sleeps among us. tears fill the eyes of manley sunburned faces. strongmen, as they clasped the hands of their friends, were not able to find words to express their grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow. the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields the home of factories ceased, the sound of the hammer was not heard. busy merchants closed their doors, businesses and homes were draped in black. three weeks have elapsed and there is a mournful silence upon the land. this morning is not confined to any class or district of the country. men of all political parties and all religious creed have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and the protestant minister walk side by said, and a jewish rabbi performed a part of the solemn services. here gathered around his to mark soldiers sailors, governors, judges, officers of all the branches of the government. here, too, are men and women from the humblest and highest occupations. here too, sincere and warm tears coming from the eyes of those who have been freed from their chains by him, whom they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed on the face of the departed than ever looked upon the face of any other departed man. have looked on the procession by 1600 miles, night and day, sunlight dawn, twilight and torchlight than ever before watch the progress of a procession. why has there been this extensive morning, this great outpouring of grief and this great procession? perhaps it is become -- because of the time in which we live, in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change. a time of war in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wise gave them -- wives gave their husbands, mothers their sons. many never returned and there was morning in every home in the land. then came signs about the end of this rebellion was dear. news came that richmond had fallen. the bells rang merrily across land. the booming of canon was heard. illuminations and torchlight processional's manifested joy and families were looking for the speedy return of loved ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy in one hour, in one minute all the joy was stilled when news that abraham lincoln the best of presidents, had perished by the hand of an assassin. all of the feelings that have been gathering for years in the forms of excitement, grief power and joy turning into a whale of 10, a sadness inexpressible, and anguish on honorable. he was stricken down when his hopes were bright and prospect of a joyous life before him. perhaps the great cause of this morning is to be found in the man himself. mr. lincoln was no ordinary man. a conviction has been growing on the mind of the nation that by the hand of god he was especially singled out to guide our government in these troubled times. he had a quick and ready perception of fact, a memory unusually tenacious and retentive, and a logical turn of mind that followed unwaveringly every link in the chain of thought on which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds more broad and their character, more comprehensive in their scope but he had the ability to follow, step-by-step, with more logical power the points that he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to proceed and perceive the truth in all its relationships and simplicity and when found, to honor it. his moral power gave him preeminence. the people saw abraham lincoln as an honest man who would do what was right, regardless of the consequences. it was this moral feeling that gave him the greatest told on the people. but the great act of the mighty chieftain on which his name shall rest long after his frame shall molder away, is that of giving freedom to a race. such a power, such an opportunity god has seldom given to man. none of the event shall be forgotten when his world shall have become a network of republics and when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth and literature showing light and all mines and the claims of humanity recognized everywhere. the shelti conspicuous on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the grace to issue that proclamation that stands high above all others penned by uninspired men. abraham lincoln was a good man. he was known as an honest, temperate, forgiving man. a just man. a man of noble heart in every way. look over his features. listen to his utterances. he never spoke unkindly of any man. even the rebels received no word of anger from him. in his domestic life he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted husband and father. standing as we do today by his coffin, let us resolve to carry forward the policy that he so nobly began. let us do right by all men. let us bow in the sight of heaven -- val in the sight of heaven to eradicate every vestige of human slavery. to give every human being his true position before god and man. to crush every form of rebellion and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when, in the beautiful words of he whose lips are now forever sealed, the mystic chords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and heart stone all over this land will yet swell the course of the union when it is touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our feature. chieftain, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to the children. man shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your record and learned the lessons of wisdom. you, though your lips be, still speak. hushed is your voice, but the echoes of liberty ring through the world and the sounds of bondage lifted the joy. yet you are marching abroad and chains and manacles are versed in etch or touch. we crown you with humanity in throwing you as your triumphant son. hero, monarch, friend, farewell. [applause] ♪ >> reverend jerome kowalski will portray reverend ac hubbard. >> during the first week of march in 1865 on the steps of the capitol in washington city the 16th president of these united states gave his second inaugural address. this is what mr. lincoln said. fellow countrymen, at this second appearing to take the oath of presidential office there is less reason for an extended address than the was at the first. then a statement somewhat in detail to be pursued seemed fitting the proper. now at the expiration of four years through which public declaration has been publicly called for on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and egress of the nation build as new could be presented. the progress of our arms upon which all else chiefly depends is well known to the public as it is to myself. and it is, i trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all would hope for the future that no prediction with regard to it is ventured. on the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it. all sought to avert it. while the inaugural address was being delivered the vote to save the union without war was searching for agents in the city seeking to destroy it. seeking to dissolve the union through negotiation. one party would make war rather than let the nation survive. the other would accept war rather than let it perish. the war came. not distributed generally over the union, but localized in the southern part of it these slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. everyone knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. strengthening, perpetuating, strengthening this interest is the union rendered, even by war, while the government claimed no right to more than a restricted territorial enlargement of it. neither party expected the magnitude or duration that it has already attained. neither anticipated that the core of the conflict might cease before the conflict itself should cease. each looked for an easier triumph and in the result less fundamental was astounding. both of them read from the same bible and pray to the same gods invoking their names against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance in this, but let us not judge lest we be judged. the prayers of both could not be answered. neither have been answered fully. the him might he has his own purposes. while on the world because of its offenses, must needs be the offenses come, but will to the man by whom the offenses have come. if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of those offenses through the providence of god need come, but which having continued through his appointed time he now wishes to remove he gives the north and the south this terrible war and doomed are those for whom the offense came should we discern and there any departure from that tribute in which the believers in the living god always ascribed to him? finally, do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war might speedily pass away. yet it is god's will that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman, 250 years of unrequited toil be sunk and every drop of blood drawn by the lash be paid by another drawn by the sword, as was said 3000 years ago, so must it still be said the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. with malice toward no one but charity for all, with firmness as god gives us the right to see, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, binding up the nation's wounds, to care for him who have borne the battle with widow and orphan and do all that may be achieved and cherished in lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. [applause] >> ♪ amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, i once was lost but now am found, was blind but now i see ♪ >> we rejoice in the communion of saints, we remember all have faithfully lived, all who have peacefully died, those most dear to us and, our good friend and great leader abraham lincoln, who now rest in the. give us at length the portion of those who trusted in you and trusted to do your holy will, undoing your name with the church on earth and church in heaven, describing in very, a world without end, amen. ♪ >> the reverend jean tucker will portray reverend dr. phineas whirly. >> with your kind permission may i be permitted to share some portion of the words offered at the funeral service for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19? as we stand here, today, around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate, we recognize and adore the sol and -- solemn treaty of god, his throne in the heavens and his kingdom ruling over all. he have done and has permitted to be done whatsoever he pleases. whom the lord love, he's how these blessed words have cheered, strengthened, and sustained us through these long and weary years of civil strife while our friends and brothers on so many sanguine fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthen and sustain us today. through this new sorrow and chastening have come in such an hour and in such a way as we ought not that he should be taken from us and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country, just as he was beginning to be a animated and gladdened, the hope of enjoying with the people the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self-sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home in illinois and coming to the city of washington to take his seat in the executive chair of a disturbed and troubled nation he said to the friends who gathered tearfully around him and made him farewell -- i leave you with this request, pray for me. they did pray for him. millions of others prayed for him. they did not pray in vain. the answer appears in all of his subsequent history, shining forth with a heavenly radiance and the full force and tenor of his administration, from its commencement to its close. god raised him up for a great and glorious mission, furnished him for his work, aided him in its accomplishment. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and pertinacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things he gave him a calm and abiding confidence in the overruling providence of god in the ultimate triumph over truth and righteousness in the power and the blessing of god. this confidence strengthen him in his hours of anxiety and toil and inspired him with calm and cheery hope when others were inclining to despond and see. never shall i forget the emphasis and deep emotion with which he said in the east room of the executive mansion to a company of clergyman and others who called to pay him their respects in his darkest days of our civil conflict -- gentleman he said, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation, the justice and goodness of god. when it events were very threatening and prospects very dark, i still hope that in some way that man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just and god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith. it was an anchor to his soul both sure and steadfast. by dwelling constantly on your words and actions, our beloved president, your people will have an illustrious character before their eyes. if not content with the image of your mortal frame, look on his more valuable form and features of your mind. busts and statues, like their originals, are frail and perishable. but you our lamented friend and head, delineated with truth and fairly consigned to posterity will reside yourself triumphing over the injuries of time. let us pray. mighty god and loving father, we commend time mercy the solo by some -- humble servant abraham praying that having opened unto him the gates of larger life he may be received more and more into by loving presence, that he may enter into the blessing promised to all. grant us by thy grace the cherish of the good work done in him and by the agency of empowering spirit may we be enabled to carry forth the ideals of liberty for which he labored and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. remembering and i great mercies and loving kindness, we ask these things for the sake of a holy name, amen. ♪ >> it is my honor and privilege to introduce to you a woman i met a few months ago who i will call a very good friend. [applause] >> governor, mrs., distinguished guests, we have actors were very distinguished. ladies and gentlemen and 1865 the funeral of abraham lincoln was a dark and difficult time in life. how honored we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1865. it truly has been an honor. [applause] there are a couple of additions we want to add to the program that i think you will all appreciate. with the pallbearers please come forth -- would the pallbearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the actual history. we were able to do that within our pallbearers. i know they are coming. katie: would you be kind enough gentlemen to come along the front here. and, if you can, single file. as a genealogist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you all to know right now is within these pallbearers, we have direct descendents of the original pallbearers. would you please stand -- step forward, those of you who are descendents, please step forward. [applause] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are re-creating the role their ancestor played, and i am truly honored that they are here. i want to thank the springfield choral society and the community members i have no idea how many -- i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them -- [applause] their director has had to put up an awful lot with me. [laughter] [applause] i also want to thank the band over here. [applause] while we are doing this, we also need to thank our interpreter today. [applause] i would like to now, as a commander and the crew from the uss abraham lincoln who have honored springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. [applause] they will be placing a wreath at the fault, and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me, you will see it when it is son. we will let them get on with their great work. commander and crew, we are honored to have you here. [applause] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here but around the world. the gentleman that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it is difficult. an extraordinary man was part of our group, and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it is now to make sure that keith is represented here with that anti-chair. -- that empty chair. [applause] we also had two alternates for the clergy, one of them is reverend anderson. the other is malcolm shotwell. and i'm grateful to them for always being able to pinch hit when we need it. [applause] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit into history yet again. general hooker, the rest of the program, sir, is yours. general hooker: abraham lincoln our favorite son, our neighbor, our friend, taken from us far too soon did live to see a house divided. was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787. pennsylvania, 1787. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788. maryland, 1788. south carolina, 1788. new hampshire, 1788. virginia, 1788. new york, 1788. north carolina, 1789. rhode island, 1790. vermont, 1791. kentucky, 1792. tennessee, 1796. ohio 1803. louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi, 1817. illinois, 1818. alabama, 1819. maine, 1720. missouri, 1721. arkansas, 1836. michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa, 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1860. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada, 1864. and the war was over. [gunshot] [applause] and now, he belongs to the ages. thank you. [applause] [gunshots] ♪ >> that brings to an end in reenactment of lincoln's funeral in springfield illinois. in just a minute, the university of illinois scholar michael burling game will be joining us to take your calls and talk about this day. he's the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." 748-8901 is a number for mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on facebook. professor burling game, what was it like 150 years ago? michael: very similar. the conditions that prevailed today are quite similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? michael: yes. his widow was upset by the plans made to have him buried in the center of town. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge, which is north of the center of town. she claims that it was her husband's wish. she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago, until authorities bowed to her wishes. it was legitimate, because the widow has the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. she was not there. she was so grieve-stricken by the assassination, that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination. her older son, robert, came out here. but he was the only family member that made it to springfield for the occasion. >> today's events, how accurate from your research? michael: based on what i have discovered, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making this as historically accurate and authentic as possible. professor, what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day? michael: i assume the crowd dispersed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. he is a professor at the university of illinois springfield and a lincoln next bird. caller: hi. my question is, the symbolic vote that the local springfield committee made, i think there was about 16 members. would that vote, is it symbolic to vote on or in the president's wife's wishes. if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on another plot? michael: it is not entirely clear what would happen if the 8-7 vote has been reversed. it is possible that she would have insisted to bury him elsewhere. the funeral vault the neath the capital had been created for george washington, but he is buried in mount vernon. there is an empty space, as it were. >> 20 days between his death and his funeral. how do they preserve the body? michael: with embalmers. one of the more alarming aspects is that the funeral train proceeded from washington to baltimore, then philadelphia, the new york, harrisburg, and so one. albany, buffalo, cleveland, chicago, then springfield. the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artist were hard-pressed from keeping the corpse of looking like a mummy. by the time he reached here, he was more like a mummy then the man in real life. >> is it what we call an open casket when he was there? michael: yes open casket. caller: i would like to know how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred? wasn't there a fear about the tomb wasn't finished yet and they put him somewhere inside of it -- i'm not sure. michael: i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the vault before it was closed rapidly. but it was a while. >> his body has been at oak ridge ever since, correct? michael: correct. caller: i would just like to make a comment. the program was outstanding except for the fact that i don't feel that the taurus and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful. of our fallen president. i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible shameful way to act, laughing and cheering on when they are carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. do you know how many people were at oak ridge on that day? michael: i'm sorry, i don't. caller: hello. how many years did abraham live in springfield? michael: mr. lincoln moved into the house in 1844 and left in 1861, so he was there for 17 years. the house that we know today was not there until 1856. most of the time that lincoln spent in that house, it was a one story modern house. it was a the last five years that they lived in a house with the extra story added, that was done by mrs. lincoln. when we visit the house, we get a distorted view of what it looked like. it was much more cramped than what we find when we go to the house today. >> if people come to visit springfield, what will they see that is reflected of abraham lincoln and his life? michael: there is a great deal here. it is what i somewhat irreverently referred to as the holy land. you have the lincoln home, the lincoln tomb, the lincoln law office, and the old state capitol where he served as the legislator as a young man and where he gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station from which he departed for washington in 1861 and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so, there is a great deal to be seen. on top of that, you have abraham lincoln's museum, which is quite a magnificent place for visitors to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham lincoln. so, please come. >> c-span was live with the opening of that museum. you can find that at c-span.org if you would like to watch our coverage. caller: hello. are there any other immediate family members of abraham lincoln buried their? michael: yes. mrs. lincoln is buried here and willie is buried here and eddie is buried here. all three sons -- three of the four sons are buried here. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. he served as a captain during the war, and as a military veteran, his wife thought he should be buried and arlington cemetery. when i discovered that, i went out to arlington to visit his grave, and i was startled to see that his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> what was mary todd lincoln's life like in springfield? michael: she was not very popular in springfield. she had antagonized her sisters she had antagonized neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband step. she spent time in chicago, spent time abroad. only in the later years did you come back to springfield. so she was rather unpopular, and that's why she stayed away. lincoln was asked by his friend what he planned to do after his second term was over, and he said that he planned to return to springfield, but mrs. lincoln didn't want to. caller: good afternoon. i was calling to ask the gentleman, in the reenactment today, with the casket carried is that his actual casket or a replica? michael: i'm sorry -- >> was at a repit a replica? michael: yes, it is a replica. i didn't know where it is stored. caller: hi. it is an honor to speak to you. i wanted to ask, can you talk about what happened with robert lincoln. 30 or 40 years later, when they had to go into the tomb and open up the casket, check something about the president can you talk about why that was necessary, please? michael: i'm not intimately familiar with that story. but there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the president, and the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i cannot give you more details about that. >> what do you teach at the university of illinois? michael: i teach a course on the reconstruction, and a seminar on abraham lincoln. caller: i was wondering if this is the first time there has ever been a reenactment of his interment. if not why 150 years later? why has there never been one before and why now? michael: i don't know the answer to that. i know that the people that have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have been extremely conscientious. it is a good question. i don't have the answer to your question. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? michael: no, there are no lineal descendents. robert litan had a son, but he died young. caller: i thought they tried to take his body several times, so his body was actually moved. michael: yes, the body was actually moved around. there has been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body. it was the gang that could not shoot straight, and it failed but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil future attempts. >> why the train route that was taken from washington back to springfield? michael: prof. burlingame: the train ride which re-created the train ride he took from illinois to washington. chicago was added on the return trip. it was undertaken and part two allow -- to allow the public to express morning, not just for abraham lincoln, but the outpouring of grief it was accompanying the funeral train was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war, many of him could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buriedin in unmarked graves. and so in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they live in similar communities. and so, when a family member was dying, you would be present with that person. you would attend the funeral and the like. and this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands of thousands of people could not do that. and so the train ride was a kind of cathartic exercise which allowed the nation, at least the north, to engage and morning not only for the fallen leader but for their fall in love points. that i think is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin. one of the most striking things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the reminiscences of people who as children were taken to see the train. as they worote about it in later years, they were more struck by the fact not that they saw the train itself but that they saw tears in their parent's eyes. host: who are some of the dignitaries that attended abraham lincoln's funeral? prof. burlingame: the dignitaries that attended the funeral work as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurnee, who the preacher at the new york avenue presbyterian church where president lincoln attended worship services during his presidency. bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church, the largest church in the country at that time. and local authorities including his good friends who had worked with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the potomac in 1863. and several other people of that sort. host: but not ulysses s. grant? prof. burlingame: no. host: juan, georgia. go ahead. caller: professor burlingame? i happened to live in springfield in the 1940's. i lived west of town. [voice breaking up] i used to walk from the capitol building to petersburg where lincoln's village was. and back that day to get, earn a badge. we had a well on the front lawn and i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts from all over the country. my sunday school teacher, i attended the first methodist church in springfield on n fit street. and my sunday school teacher was judge logan's. grandson. we heard many stories about mr. lincoln. i do not remember a lot of them, i was seven years old, but judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. yes. and -- his grandson in atlanta right now. and i talked to him not too long ago. host: michael birmingham, who is judge logan? prof. burlingame: judge logan was lincoln's second law partner. he had three law partners. he started off with john stewart with whom he served in the legislature and in the blackhawk war. his second law partner with stephen t logan. stephen to logan was probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very incidental in teaching lincoln the law. and lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln cannot get along very well with his own father. he was rather estranged from his own father. older men in positions of authority like judge logan served as surrogate fathers for lincoln. he was one of the most important. he was also political ally. they were good members of the whig party together. and champions of the republican party. and judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge logan. there are many people in springfield whose ancestors are close to lincoln. in fact, this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. my ancestor was closer to lincoln than yours. i horn in by saying well, my great-grandfather was lincoln's ambassador to china but that does not cut any ice and spring field. host: just doing a little bit of math and up to 1920 there were a lot of people living in springfield who had actually known abraham lincoln. did anyone -- prof. burlingame: up until that time, yes. host: did anyone ever do or history? prof. burlingame: yes. there was quite a lot of oral history done. one of the great contributions to lincoln's studies was an oral history project that was undertaken by his law partner william herndon. as soon as the president died, herndon corresponded with an interview people in indiana and illinois and kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on lincoln . then in subsequent years newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and interview people for -- who knew lincoln. those interviews are externally valuable and they can be found in newspapers and they can be found in the field notes and research notes of the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln, a life to go to brown the university in providence, rhode island, which is an excellent collection because john hay, his assistant personal secretary went to brown. and i discovered a whole cache of valuable interviews that had been conducted by haye, and also by his fellow secretary in the white house. all kinds of new information. yes, there is a treasure trove or reminisces about lincoln. they have to be treated with caution because people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. as mark twain once said, the older i get the more vividly i remember things that never happened. but if you use reminiscences in conjunction with contemporary documents, they can be extremely revealed to it i have made good use of those. host: michael burlingame. the abraham lincoln association book prize in 1996. his book won the 2010 lincoln prize. what, about 1000 pages you have a netbook? prof. burlingame: no, it is 2000 pages. it weighs nine pounds. don't drop it on your foot. because it is so big and clumsy, i recommend, the 200 p0 pages are awkward to hold i recommend that people get it on kindle or ipad. they should be warned that as soon as you download abraham lincoln a life, your device becomes much heavier. host: craig is calling from pennsylvania. caller: hello, professor. my question has to do with the reenactors carrying the coffins. i assume that they were representing the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the old ones who carry the coffin of president lincoln from -- all the way from washington to spring field. in springfield and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the so-called pallbearers and the veteran reserve corps. and secondly, my understanding the veteran reserve corps actually received a medal of honor for their honorary duty in guarding and escorting the body of president lincoln. prof. burlingame: the veteran reserve corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i did not know the story about the medal of honor. that is quite remarkable. that is a remarkable fact. i'm glad to learn it. host: mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon. you're on with professor michael burlingame in o ak ridge cemetery, in spring field, illinois. caller: there was a caller earlier who asked about what happened later in the day and i came across a quote in a book i have called "20 days." and it was published -- back in 1965. and it says later that day back in springfield a crowd went to stand in front of the governor's mansion and listen to the band of the st. louis regimen which had come to march and the funeral procession. serenade the governor. it was the first time quick time is it was heard in springfield in three weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. prof. burlingame: that is a touching story. thanks. caller: it is a wonderful book. i pulled it off my shelf. i had it in my lap watching the reenactment today. so it has been nice. prof. burlingame: it is a remarkable book. a huge collection of materials. that he compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. it is the repository of one of the best image collections of lincoln in the country. host: we have been live in springfield for several hours on american history tv. if you missed any of it, and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time, everything we have shown today will re-air on c-span 3 on the weekend. lisa from california, hi, lisa. caller: hello. host: go ahead, ma'am. caller: i wanted to know was it lincoln's -- what was lincoln's favorite food? host: what made you curious about that? calllerer: i don't know. they were talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat? host: let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. prof. burlingame: friend of mine,, his favorite food was chicken fricassee and mashed potatoes and strober shortcake. i've a friend who has written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he of the sizes that is lincoln 's -- emphasizes that as lincoln 's favorite meal. he is famously not a foodie. his assistant presidential secretary said he was a man who was not much of a connoisseur of, or gourmet. that he ate what was put before him without complaining. he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers would travel around from one county seat to the next every fall and spring out here in central illinois, and all the other lawyers would grouse about the food but lincoln would not. one day, even his legendary patientsce wore thin. and he said to the house sir with this after dinner beverages coffee. would you please bring me tea? if this is tea would you please bring me coffee? how was that for a gentle way to register a complaint. host: hi mike. caller: hi fellas. you pledge before there were no direct descendents of abraham and lincoln alive. however, nancy hanks, her sister is tom hanks great great great grandmother. i thought that was kind of neat. prof. burlingame: right. so there is a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to lincoln's mother side. but no descendents of lincoln himself, that his, his son or his children did not have grandchildren who then also had children of their own. host: margaret in des moines. hi, margaret. caller: hi. i was wondering if lincoln was buried in spring field illinois, they always told me he was buried in a statue of lincoln in washington d.c. so where was he originally buried? prof. burlingame: he was buried out here but at the lincoln memorial, the lincoln memorial on the mall in washington is a great tribute to him. but he is not buried there. host: go ahead, sir. prof. burlingame: i was going to say, of course it is a magnificent trivia to lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things about the lincoln memorial, as you look at the statue, if you face to the right eisai -- whoa -- you see -- whoa! [laughter] host: i take it something went flying. did the wind grab something? prof. burlingame: a tent blew over. everybody ok? host: sounds windy out there. prof. burlingame: but anyway, when you go to the lincoln memorial one of the striking things you see is not just a magnificent statue but also the second inaugural address, the text on the right-hand wall and the -- and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. host: if you cannot get through on the phone lines, you can try social media @c-span history is american history's twitter address, or join the conversation on abraham lincoln@facebook.com/c-span history. theresa, lebanon, indiana. caller: hello. host: hi. hello. caller: you had a question from a caller asking about the movement of lincoln's body within his tomb. andf years ago, when i was a very small child, nine or 10 years old, i read a story in look magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure it was indeed him in the coffin. and i remember the story well because it freaked me out terribly because he describes in detail the condition of his skin the condition of his clothing, and everything else. and then he told the story about why he was there. and that story stayed with me forever until a few years ago when i googled the story again and the man passed away in the 1980's or something. but he was very young. they said they were moving him to make sure the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his body being stolen. and another course and its place. that is what i remember reading from look magazine. prof. burlingame: speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend, a woman who is reading to her four-year-old son a book about lincoln. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. it's a return to his mother and said mommy, do i have the story right? the president went to the theater and he was watching the play, then he got shot while watching the play but he did not die until the next morning. his mother said, that's right. the boy thought about that and thought about that. then he said well, at least you got to see the end of the play. host: up next -- prof. burlingame: this is a true story. host: john in lake city, florida. you are on american history tv. caller: thank you for what you're doing. i have one question and one something to see if you can answer. the first is regarding the mythology behind president lincoln, the great the mensa paid her, i do not believe he knew that term and it was a term that was invented by the media -- the great emancipator. secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a tyrant when in reality my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution his adversaries did the same but yet, i see authors such as the kennedy brothers continually downgrade him in this manner. i do not understand why that is. prof. burlingame: there are cranks and lunatic fringe in all fields, and i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking thing about lincoln during the civil war is that the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than during the war with france in 1798 when the congress passed the alien and sedition acts which tried to crush the jeffersonian republican party. much less repressive than world war i when this sedition and espionage acts were passed witchcraft down very severely-- which crackdown very severely on all forms of dissent. world war ii when 120,000 japanese americans were incarcerated with no trial, no due process and the like. the striking thing about the civil war is how much there was suppression -- was not how how much the suppression of civil liberties, but how little. especially considering how it was a very serious domestic, civil war were seven times was much more prominent than it was in world war i or world war ii. the main complain about lincoln 's civil liberties is that he suspended the privilege of the write of habeas corpus but the constitution says the privilege may be suspended in times of domestic rebellion or foreign invasion. the original language of that portion of the constitution set the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in times of domestic -- or foreign invasion. they cut out the phrase by the legislature. it was clear the president had that authority. so, lincoln's record on civil liberties is distorted by people's -- people like thomas dilorenzo. host: a minute ago we were showing entrance to the tune with the iron doors at oak ridge of the above. -- to the tomb. was that built for ever have lincoln and what you see when you go through those iron doors? prof. burlingame: i cannot say for certain. i'm not sure was created certain for him. host: you have never been through those doors huh? prof. burlingame: right. host: so are visitors allowed to go? prof. burlingame: no. no the tomb itself is entered from a very different angle. and different elevation. host: oh, up the stairs. prof. burlingame: right. host: mike in columbus, ohio. yes, sir. go ahead, professor. prof. burlingame: i was just going to say that the tomb on the monument above the tomb is really quite striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the direction of the monument was -- the erection of the monument that mrs. lincoln insisted that the monument be buried by the tomb. she had every right to insist on bearing her where she saw fit. she did not have the right to insist on where the monument would be placed, but she was rather -- a rather imperious woman when she got her way. caller: professor, i wanted to ask you -- was abraham lincoln a good lawyer? did you get along with the news media and has history made him bigger than he really was? prof. burlingame: um, he was a good lawyer. he was not a great lawyer but he was a good provincial lawyer. very capable. and what th -- with the news media he got along very well. this was something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries john hey, two young men in their 20's write for newspapers, right defenses of the administration's annex the nations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments. that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york and missouri and elsewhere. and so he wanted to have the newspapers cover him favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate with the public that was very effective was an innovation on his part to write public letters to newspaper editors or two critics. -- to critics. they would get reprinted in newspapers of the day. in lieu of press, this, these were techniques that lincoln used to cultivate the press. was he bigger? has history made him bigger than he deserves? i don't think so. as time goes by, we have come to appreciate him as a larger and figure than even we appreciate today. host: james tweets. my mother tells me that she has an ancestor that was in lincoln 's from your area are -- funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? prof. burlingame: you can go to the abraham lincoln presidential library. the reference librarians would be eager to help you. host: garrtett is calling in from hanscom air force base. where is that? caller: it is between bedford and lexington. host: in kentucky? caller: no messages is. thank you for c-span. and professor, thank you for the book. -- no, massachusetts. my question is, since this is about the funeral. i had a question about what was -- would lincoln have done if he were still alive during that time? an additional question, do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? prof. burlingame: no you do not have to pay. on the question of, the question you pose is one that historians have try to answer for many years and that is what would've happened if lincoln had lived? when i was a student in school, chest after the punic war, i would've thought that lincoln would have been crucified by congress the way his successor andrew johnson was. lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during the war. december 1863, basically saying if you lay down your arms and except the evolution of slavery there will not be any punishment except for the highest ranking members of the confederate military and civilian government. then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that and congress objected vigorously and impeached him and he came within one vote of being removed from office. the argument that was prevalent when i was a student many years ago was that that is just what would've happened to lincoln. most historians do not agree with that now. because they say that what lincoln was doing in december of 1863 was to encourage southerners to throw in the towel, to surrender. they had suffered grievous defeats at gettysburg, vicksburg, fort hudson chattanooga. no reasonable southerner could believe they were going to win the war on the ground, but if they were offered general instead of specific peace terms, they would turn the tall. that motive no longer existed once robert e lee surrender. two days later on april 11 1855, lincoln gave a speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage, at least for the veterans of the union army and for the veyry intelligent, by which we assume he meant literate. frederick douglass who was in the audience heard the president give that speech and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. but frederick douglass said later, i should have known and we should've known that that was a terribly important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statement ship in the school of rail splitting and to split a rail, you insert a wedge into the log. then having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should've known that that is what lincoln was doing that day. and john wilkes booth heard that speech and he knew that that was a really significant speech. and he turned his colleagues and said, that means n word citizenship. by god that is the last speech he is ever going to give and i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln. not because lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation and not because he supported the 13th amendment abolishing slavery but because he called for black voting rights. i think it is appropriate for us in the 21st century to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king. or any of those people who were murdered in the 1960's as a champion the civil rights revolution of the 20th century. host: we have only got four minutes left with our guest. if you are interested in making comments are joining the conversation, go to our facebook page. quite a lively conversation going on. facebook.com/c-span history. robert in murfreesboro, tennessee p you are on. caller: i was wondering -- the southern generals or the southern congress was at lincoln 's funeral? prof. burlingame: i'm sorry i did not get that question. host: southern representative at abraham lincoln's funeral? any southern generals? prof. burlingame: no. there were nine generals from virginia who served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army, no. host: did robert ely have any reaction? -- robert e. lee have any reaction? prof. burlingame: i'm sure he did but i cannot tell you what it was off the top of my head. host: brian jeffersonville, indiana. caller: professor, a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of visiting the abc lincoln's -- abe lincoln's presidential library as well as the tomb. are most of abe lincoln's artifacts there at the library and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country? prof. burlingame: well, there are many artifacts here. and there is a huge collection of documents related to lincoln particular his pre-presidential life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. when i was writing my book, abraham lincoln, a life, i spent many summers here is an invaluable collection of. documents and newspapers and archival material. the library of congress also has a huge collection. lincoln's presidential papers or at the library of congress. and there is a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. many of those wound up in the national archives, and they are cubic acres of papers and conscientious crew in springfield has been poring through those archives looking for new documents. they find some remarkable documents not just to lincoln but some new documents by lincoln. bless their work. host: oak ridge cemetery is the location where university of illinois professor michael burlingame has joined us. his book is called "abraham lincoln, a life." two volume book. prof. burlingame: right. be sure to buy it. you do not have to read it. host: th screeria -- nigeria. -
your book is "-- tell us what we are going to see today, what is going to happen behind you and all around you this afternoon. >> thank you. today, you're going to see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 100 50 years ago. it started on the square downtown. it will take probably a half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery, which is on the north side of springfield. that procession will be a reconstruction or reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. there will be a number of divisions, with reenactors in those divisions. you will see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you are going to see a horse, which would have in abraham lincoln's horse, bob led by an african-american henry brown, coming into the cemetery. and then in back of me is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. it is there that lincoln's body as well as his son with -- his son, willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> why was president lincoln buried in springfield, illinois? >> this was his home for 24 years before he went to washington, d.c. only a short time before he left springfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. mary and abraham lincoln were present on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the dedicatory speeches were made. the apocryphal story is that on the way home, abraham lincoln said to mary that " this is where i would like to be buried." >> you mentioned mary todd lincoln. yet she did not attend the funeral in springfield. she did not leave washington, d.c., and travel with the train to springfield. why is that? richard: mary todd lincoln's life was one -- she had to face many, many tragedies and this was perhaps the greatest of all . her husband being assassinated next to her. and she was rightfully devastated by that. and was just not emotionally capable of making that trip. back to springfield. her son, robert todd lincoln was there with her. and he did, to springfield for the funeral. >> if you look on your screen there, we see some of the reenactors. you may have seen the tens of a moment ago. who are those folks in the tents and how long have they been camped out? richard: i think some of them have been here since last wednesday and perhaps that is when they first came but thursday night when i was out here, we came out after dinner. it was just -- a lot of the tents were up at that time, and as i say, it was a beautiful scene. it was almost full, the moon. it was beautiful and the oak ridge cemetery gate, which is the original gate to the cemetery was lit up and across the road in lincoln park where the tents, with the fires they had lit for the evening. >> we are talking with richard hart, a springfield resident and an expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's funeral. tell me, president lincoln died here in washington on april 15. his funeral, may 4 in , springfield, illinois. what happened in the intervening period of time? what was going on in a couple of weeks back in 1865? bridget: those days between the -- richard: those days between the time of his assassination in return and burial in springfield are kind of somewhat the subject of the book that i have here. it was filled with a lot of distress in the nation as to what was occurring. as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house. there was an autopsy. it was embalmed and placed in a coffin. there were viewings there and it was eventually taken to the train station and placed in a cattle car owned i one of the directors of the railroad. the funeral train left washington d.c. and had a number of people on the train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. the train made a very long, long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. richard: -- there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city. the story is that teddy roosevelt watch the procession in new york city from one of the windows. the train supposedly would not exceed 30 miles an hour. all of the tracks were cleared for this train, and there was a lead train that went before it to make certain that the tracks were clear. it eventually ended up in chicago, and there was an enormous funeral in chicago, lasting a couple of days with the viewing of the body at the courthouse. then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4. from chicago to springfield at every crossing, in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered, often with bonfires , and in many instances, there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks. they were decorated with evergreens flowers. even in the middle of the night there would be hundreds of thousands of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers later today we have a couple of more things we will show folks about the train. we will take a look at the train station there in springfield and have a bit more about president lincoln's train. how many people came to spring field in 18 -- in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? richard: that is an amazing question. the number is not certain but springfield at that time had a population of about 15,000 people. the estimate is between 75,000 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were special trains from many of the midwestern cities that came into springfield. and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes. and remarkably, it was the first time a pullman train had been used, and it was a sleeping car. because of that use during the lincoln funeral, it gained acceptance by the railroads as another aspect of a passenger train. that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> again, we are looking at live pictures from springfield, illinois. a reenactment today of the funeral of president lincoln. we are talking to richard hart who is there in springfield. we see some of the folks dressed up, the ring actors uniform and in costume. are these local reenactors or do people come from all over the country to participate in this event today? richard: that's a wonderful question. i was out here two days ago, and a couple from orlando, florida were here. they were dressed in period costumes that were absolutely spectacular. they were taking each other's picture, so i offered to take their pictures together. that is where i got to have this conversation with them. they had come for this event from orlando, florida. in fact, she gave me this funeral badge -- i do not know if you can see that or not -- that she had made to hand out to people in springfield. since then, i have met a number of reenactors were from many of the midwestern states. i meant -- i met a gentleman lancaster, pennsylvania and his reenactment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military gun on a trailer. he was from wisconsin. so i think there is really kind of a subculture of reenactors in the united states. they have been here, and many of the people you see in costumes i think, are from out of town. many are from springfield, but it is hard to tell how to divide where they are from. it is a pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is you have lived in springfield for 47 years, most of your life. what is the mood of the springfield area, the springfield community about this reenactment? are people excited to host this event? a lot of the participation from everybody in the area? richard: yes. it is actually just remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days -- and perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been at least 10 different band concerts in the last two days. the churches around springfield and these band concerts are reenactors. the bands come from all over the united states. they want to exhibit their abilities. they have had band concerts. there was a symphony last evening -- the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. this morning i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church, and it was packed. there are -- at the edwards home, they are having a reenactment tea. it is just a phenomenal participation by the entire community for this event. i think that everyone recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life, and they just want to be a part of that, to honor him and to commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> there at the cemetery you can see richard hart springfield resident and author. we have given you the chance to ask him questions. we have divided the phones by time zones. i'm going to ask you now the procession making its way to the ceremony and a reenactment of the actual speeches, are those historically accurate. will they be accurate to what took place 150 years ago? richard: i believe so. i have seen the program and compared it to the program 150 years ago. i think very much exactly the same. i think it will be exciting to see that. >> who are some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's funeral in springfield 150 years ago and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at the lincoln funeral? richard: there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance for the funeral. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the prominent minister in the united states at that time, a very prominent minister. he came and delivered the primary eulogy for abraham lincoln. in addition to that, there were photographers that came. from philadelphia to chicago -- from philadelphia, from chicago. there were reporters that came from the newspapers, the new york papers, the washington papers. one of the gentlemen that came who was a relatively young reporter at that time went on to found the associated press. many of the photographs that these photographers took while here in springfield are still in existence. there is an exhibit in springfield that has all of those photographs. >> after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson became president, is that right? richard: yes. >> did he attend the funeral? richard: no, he did not. >> why not? richard: you have to remember that in addition to this funeral transpiring at that time, it was in a period of 90 days in american history, you had the congress passing the 13th amendment, freeing the slaves. it had to be approved by the states not done until december of that year, but that occurred. you have linked in delivering his second inaugural address, a masterpiece. and then you had secretary blinken delivering a speech saying he believed that certain black man should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e lee surrendering to grant in bringing about the closing of the civil war. the country was euphoric after that. and then within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated, and everyone went into extreme morning -- mourning. because of that, there was a lot of uncertainty about the government. and what happened. many of the government people just stayed in washington, i think. there was also the search for john wilkes booth and any of the conspirators that participated in the murders. that took the front page of many newspapers, so you had a variety of things occurring, and the people who came to springfield and they were numerous from out of springfield and were high up, but the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 on the east coast, 2:00 at your time, in illinois, let's take our first caller. angela from little rock. hi, you are on c-span. go ahead. caller: i just have a general question. host: hello, angela. richard: hello, angela. host: i do not think we have angela. are you there? no angela. let me ask -- i'm sorry? we are going to work on our phone call there, and as we tried to get that put together let me ask another question. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we are seeing? we are seeing union soldiers there is a woman there in -- are these accurate period costumes these reenactors are wearing? richard: absolutely. they are very accurate. the ladies walking toward, what did you had walked -- on the screen before, and that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. a year ago, that did not exist. where we are sitting his -- this afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bramble. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate. that was re-created this year based upon photographs of the period. it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. it was dedicated in december of last year. and it is through those gates the procession will come. it was done, quite frankly because of this event today, but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. it connects to lincoln park which is immediately to the east. it has become a part of this total neighborhood and the people of the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. what you're looking at now, is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see their reenactor tents and encampment there. they are in absolute accurate costumes. they are fanatics about this. about every aspect of not only their costumes, but there tents the flags, the food they eat the bedding they have. everything is a re-creation of the period they represent. that is what i was telling the other evening when i came out here. it was beautiful. the white tents. the moonlight hitting them. they had fires going. it was really something. you can see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. host: we are going to try one more time with the phone calls. we are going to see if we can get bob from tulsa, oklahoma with us and our guest. bob, go ahead, you are on c-span 3. caller: my question is regarding the link in children. are they and tuned in the tomb. also, i understand that robert lincoln was at the final internment of abraham lincoln . is he buried there? richard: yes, the children are buried there, except for robert. robert todd lincoln, by all accounts, wished to be buried there. he was survived by his wife and she thought he deserved his own separate identity and monument. so he is buried in washington, d.c. it is very interesting. before he died, his son tom died in england and was brought back to the united states and was actually very -- buried with his grandfather abraham. when robert died tom was taken , out of this cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his father. to answer your question robert todd lincoln is not buried here. all of the other family members are. robert todd is buried in washington, d.c.. host: let's take another call. we will go to boise, idaho. caller: good afternoon. on this very sad memorial day. mr. hart, i have another question about robert todd lincoln. how did he get to the cemetery? i read somewhere he was staying a couple of days in washington to console his mother and then he let tad take care of her while he headed out the internment. richard: you are absolutely correct. this is one of the very interesting things that i found when i was doing the research for the book on the funeral in springfield. robert todd lincoln apparently did not intend to come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, who was a supreme court justice and who had been the judge of the circuit here in illinois where secretary blinken practice law, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents, took them with him back to bloomington. but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting, he sent a telegram, which i found, to i will paraphrase it -- telegram to robert todd lincoln. i will paraphrase it, but it basically said, "robert, it is imperative you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends here in illinois, to a man they said , that if you do not that you would regret it for the rest of your life. i have prepared a train to take you and you should make preparations to come immediately." of course, after that kind of admonition from david davis robert got on the train and did come to springfield. he stayed here for several days. at least. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where he eventually -- where eventually the monument would be constructed. it is right about the receiving vault on top of the hill behind me. perhaps you will be able to see that later on. host: once again we are live on c-span three springfield illinois the reenactment of , president abraham lincoln's funeral. making some room. for your phone calls. we have separated the numbers by time zones. we go to idaho with our guest. caller: i want to thank c-span3 for offering this program today. i was born and raised 30 miles from springfield in lincoln county. a town called taylorville. my question for mr. hart is what, if any role, did his former law partner play in the funeral? richard: that is a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's law partner at the time, he left springfield. there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. herndon played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, when i was doing this research, that he did not play a larger part. some of the other townsfolk in springfield played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what is to be done in planning the funeral. herndon really was not much a part of that. i do not know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield lincoln was to be buried. the local people that were his relatives and friends all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. at that time, it was a private residence on a hill. it was kind of a high ground. these men and the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built between the period of the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln very much did not want that to occur and she threatened to remove him from springfield or would not allow him to be carried to springfield if that was done. she insisted he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. her wishes won out. host: we will move on and take a call from florida. terry, go ahead. you are on the air. caller: i would like to thank c-span3 for this program. as a retired military officer and teacher of american history. my question is i understand that after he was placed in the tomb that there were threats to steal or attempt to steal the body. i was told he had been moved out of there and place in the caretaker -- buried elsewhere until the possible threats were taking care of. and that he was later reinterred back in. i understand for a period of time, people were visiting the tomb and the body may not have been there. i would like to find out how accurate that is. richard: that's very interesting. we are getting far past the time of the actual funeral. to recount, where he was initially placed was the receiving vault. and that receiving vault was for general use, when people could not be buried immediately. it was not just for lincoln. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the back -- on the side of this hill. he and willie were moved into that vault in december of 1865. there was then a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site. robert todd was involved with that. on the top of the hill. it was there they built the first monument. it was from that monument, and you're seeing it now on the screen this is where lincoln was , buried today. but that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone. i do not remember the exact date but after it was redone, this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. it was almost like a much and just show as far as the people who were involved. they failed to do it. because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen, the final internment of lincoln was that a hole was dug, his body was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. he now lies in that tomb in back of me. but he is under many feet of concrete. i can -- sometime, you should research or go and ask about the number of times that lincoln was actually exhumed and reburied. there is a number of them. you're right. there may have been a period where people were in the tomb, looking at what they thought to be the final burying site of lincoln when he was not in that actual site. he might have been somewhere within that tomb. host: we go along with more calls for our guest, richard hart. we go up to chicago with melody. caller: hello, how are you. richard: how are you? caller: i am fine. what i wanted to know, i was sitting here listening watching the events on tv and everything. one question happens a come to my mind. game being the president and all, i cannot really remember if he was basically in the war or the military or something, but i was wondering if there was at any time, and he thought of him may be having him buried at arlington national cemetery? i was just kind of wondering about that. richard: oh, yes. as far as lincoln's actual military record, he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830's. he was a captain. but then obviously as commander-in-chief, he would be entitled to be buried in arlington. i don't know of any suggestion that he was and i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk about the possibility of burying him in the capital building in the vault that had been planned for george washington. but that was not done. his body did lie in state in the capital. the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c. and perhaps chicago. there was some talk of that. i think it was part of the back and forth between mary, lincoln, and the springfield people over where he would be buried in springfield. i believe at some point she said we will just take him to chicago and bury him there. but i am not certain that was very serious. that is a very good question. about arlington. that was not considered. host: we are going to move forward and get one more call in right now. we go to fredericksburg, virginia. it is bobby for richard hart. caller: i am sitting with tears in my eyes. my mother is at oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. when she was buried. i did get to see the vault which was open at that time. the new one. i did see the old vault, and i wonder if you're going to talk -- you started talking about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary on c-span probably, about the old bald and how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob , his body and take it away. i just wanted you to talk about that, because where he is now is beautiful. i did go there my mother is , there. the old vault was quaint and interesting and i wonder what you can tell us about that. richard: are you asking about the receiving vault where he will be buried today or where he was buried 150 years ago? caller: you said in the hill and it is low to the ground. i remember picturing it in my mind. it was white i think on the side of the hill. was that what they called it the receiving vault? richard: the receiving vault -- the receiving vault it is right , in back of me. i do not know if the camera can show it or not. i am sitting on the other side of the road opposite the receiving vault. that is what i was talking about earlier. can you see it there now? can you see the receiving vault? there is an angle shot, i believe. there you are, can you see that? host: i think the caller is not there, but we can see it. richard: that is the receiving vault. as i said, that was built by the cemetery weight -- way in advance of lincoln's death. it was used basically to hold bodies until the ground might thaw in the they could dig a grave. or people would not have decided where they would dare he somebody. they would put them in that receiving vault until conditions were right for burial. it is almost fortuitous that it was there and lincoln's body was brought there, together with willie's, his little son who died in washington. they were put in the vault in 1865 and then they were moved into the vault further up on the hill that was held. they were moved in december of 1865. further up on the hill, you will see the actual monument that is there today. that was built in later years. as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was in either the receiving vault or the vault on the hill. it was later on. i claim no expertise in that area of history. i think there are some good books you might look into on the description of the stealing of lincoln's body or the attempt is to it. host: we are live. a beautiful afternoon in springfield, illinois. the oak ridge cemetery. a live reenactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln. this is the 150th anniversary of that event. we are going to carry the entire re-created funeral here on c-span for you. our guest is richard hart, he has been sharing some of his expertise on the subject. as we wait for the folks dressed up in the funeral procession and period costumes to make their way up to the cemetery, let's take you to the town of elgin where david cloak of cloak construction has been building a replica of the train car that carried president lincoln's coffin to springfield some 150 years ago. >> the car was standing in and was built for the president. he never road in it when he was -- rode in it when he was alive. he was kind of a common man. he didn't want to ride in his -- in this car because he had , soldiers dying everywhere and he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this car the day he died, april 15. of course, he did not make that eight. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria, virginia as a filler job to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that. with all the war effort and everything, i thought they would have been really busy. but they managed to build this car. they are not sure who order the car, they think stanton did, he was the secretary of war. after his death they converted , it to a funeral car. >> what happened to the original train after the funeral in 1865? >> the union pacific owned it. they owned it for quite a while and then they sold it to a railroad in colorado. they ended up buying a railroad back. they ended up with the car again. then they sold it to some man who took it on tour. he was going to take it to minnesota and build a new -- build a building to sit in. it was sitting in minneapolis and then some kids started a prairie fire and it got burnt. it was a really fancy car. it would have been the air force one of his day. it is pretty well decorated. it is going to be a beautiful reproduction of the car. as close as we can get. we think 95% accurate. we have had a lot of volunteers do the woodwork and upholstery. we had three guys show up that did the upholstery work at the right time. everyone seems to come when we need them. i have two period locomotives. a 1986 locomotive. and then we build another one for a group. after that, i kind of always wanted to build a car. what better card to build than a historic car lincoln's funeral car. it is the only one made by this and the only one owned by the government. they always leased their cars. i had friends in california and we talked about building a car and we kind of kicked it around and decided to build a lincoln funeral car. it is a funeral car. it is going to go on and bn educational tool. a lot of people will get to see this car and be able to see what it was like in they were pretty 1864. nice. >> how how long have you been working on this? >> altogether, five years. about three. we were talking about last night when we laid the floor boards. after the frame was built, was last march. i think we have done well. this would have been a parlor room at one time, but this is where willie's coffin was. he was on this end. lincoln was on the other end. we were trying to create the funeral room and then we will decorate that like it would have been for the funeral. we will leave it as the way it was before it was decorated for the funeral. we do not have pictures of the car but we do have descriptions of how it was decorated. that was from alexandria virginia. someone had the foresight to interview people who worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the 1920's. >> what was this central room? >> that would have been his state room or bedroom. we think. there's not a lot of description about it. we kind of decorated like the period >> what are some of the of time. >> what are some of the pieces in that room? >> we put a bed in. it is a period bed. we have a lady that was really into history. she is a reenactor. she bought this furniture and had it redone. what was in here was kind of lost in history. >> the third room will be more designed as his you know all room, where his coffin will be there with two chairs which came , off of a slavery plantation. they were there to guard the coffin. we will have them set up on either side and have the black drape on the curtains. the carpeting, the exact same company that made the carpeting for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it is completely an 18th century period carpeting, which was made on a loom. they actually had to hand stitch some of the fabric together. we went with this color because in the descriptions, they talk about forest green princeton -- crimson green leather. , that's how we came up with this color. >> there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all of the 26 states, even the southern states. mr. lincoln was all about the union. we figured he would want that in here. these lamps we had made in california. we re-created what we think of the lamps would look like from the description the etching on the windows, we knew that from a window that a guy in minneapolis has, so we were able to get that patching. that is correct. i have a guy in tucson who has built several models, and he is our technical advisor. he doesn't have a lot of detail on the inside of the car but on the outside he was instrumental in getting the color. several windows have survived. be clear story windows -- the clerestory windows here, we have a man who owns one, so we know the color is correct. the inside, this sort of off-white, they call it the zinc white. that is an old terminology. we have a lot of. -- pictures of the outside of the car, in pittsburgh and new york. we think we pretty much nailed the bunting. they're supposed to be more striving and stuff on the car but funding is a little low here for that. goldleaf is not cheap. >> the railings are different on each end. we have a full railing on this end with the door, which was handmade by a blacksmith, which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full railing. because that is what they used to roll the coffin in out of the doorway. >> the trucks are brought up to modern specifications, steel frames. back in the day, they would have been woodframe trucks with a dual gauge wheel which derailed about every time they went through a switch, so that was not a good idea. it fell out of favor quickly. after the war, they built everything standard gauge, which was mr. lincoln's idea also. he signed a rule that american railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to tie the east and west together. he really wanted to tie california to the union, and he signed the transcontinental railroad act. he did a lot of things for this country that people don't realize. >> the real significance is that , we really just wanted to re-create history. it is a once-in-a-lifetime project. we really want to educate people, especially the youngest generation on how people traveled back then. lincoln was just a magnificent man. he had a great vision. when he decided to sign the railroad act and brought the central union and pacific together. so we had railroad tracks across the country, and that is what made america america. lincoln had a wonderful vision. it is the 150th anniversary, and we are very passionate about the project. and about lincoln himself. it was lincoln who actually inspired dave to build the leviathan, the locomotive engine. with that, the 150th anniversary was around the corner, he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make this happen on the 150th anniversary. >> live again here from springfield, illinois on american history tv here on c-span three. the reenactment 150 years later of president abraham lincoln's funeral. we have been waiting for reenactors. participants are making their way up the road to the cemetery with us. our guest, springfield resident lawyer, author and rock until her richard -- raconteur, richard hart. richard, you are wearing a ribbon on your suit lapel. is that historically accurate? richard: well, i don't know if it is historically accurate. i believe it is. a lady gave that to me yesterday so i told her i would wear it today. there are a number of people out here that had the ribbons on. historically, there were a number of these ribbons that were made. some people still have them. they are on exhibit in some of the museums. >> you can start to see it on your monitor, the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us a bit about what we are seeing? richard: well, can you hear the bell ringing? >> we sure can. richard: that is the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. it was wrong, i don't think it was here at the time, but it is being rung to announce the procession into oak ridge cemetery. you are now seeing one of the first divisions marching in full uniform. they are coming in very slowly. uh-oh, i lost it, i lost the hookup. >> we will let you find it, richard. as we do that, we will watch the procession very solemnly reenactors making their way up the street. let's watch and listen here on c-span three. [bell tolls] [bell tolls] [bell tolls] richard: all right. i can see a little more now. it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking very slowly, and, i don't know who the lady is in front here, but she certainly is not in proper military gear. you can see their instruments and they are of the period. directly in back of them is one of the regiments. they are walking down what is known as 1st street. it is somewhat of a hill that they come down into the valley, where we sit. then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier, which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. there, you see the gates. now it is being opened. through the gates, you can see some of the camps of reenactors where they stayed. >> were funerals like this a common occurrence for a prominent citizen, or was this unique to abraham lincoln? richard: i think the victorian customs were much more elaborate than what we have today. but i think it was conceded that this was the ultimate funeral of all times. in history. as far as victorian funerals, it was the ultimate. in victorian funerals, but also in just the history of mankind. i think i don't know how many millions of people viewed the train and the body as it came back to springfield. as i said, they were probably 100,000 visitors in springfield for the funeral. >> would those visitors have lined this route we are looking at now? lined up watching this procession? richard: they would have. they would have been in this valley, where i'm sitting. and they were divided into divisions. the people that marched in this procession. it was by their military unit. they were may sonic divisions clergy -- masonic divisions clergy divisions, lawyer divisions. it went on and on. the official order is very interesting to read, as far as enumerating all these different institutions and military groups. >> richard, i want to interrupt you quickly. we just saw their, i don't know if you could hear it, we saw some military reenactors doffing their hats and doing the huzzah. is that a common form of respect? richard: i believe so. they are now entering the gates. you can see they are just coming through the gate. you can see them, just the drum i believe. i don't believe they are playing any instruments, just a slow drumbeat, like a dirge. do you see them? >> let's listen to them as this procession makes its way into oak ridge cemetery. our live coverage of this 150th anniversary reenactment. richard: here is, this is the hearse that you see now. >> one of those things on the top of the hearse? richard: this hearse was loaned to the city of springfield for this funeral by a funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses. it has been reconstructed by the family here in springfield, in great detail and great accuracy by veterans, and i believe they are here today. they have done an absolutely outstanding job of that detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes, that you can see on the hearse. the horses, i believe some of these horses are from the amish around sullivan, illinois. they have these workhorses. i believe these are they. they lease them out for this occasion. the first part of the procession is now approaching the receiving wall. you might not perhaps hear the drumbeat. just a slow and urge -- a slow dirge. [bell tolls] [bell tolls] richard: it appears the hearse is now stopped waiting. >> richard general joseph hooker was the marshall in chief. can you tell us who he was historically, and why he was the marshall for the funeral of president lincoln? richard: very good question. i had lunch today with michael burlingame, a lincoln scholar who knows just about everything about the civil war. i asked him that very question, because i did not know. he said that he did not know either. hooker had a rather interesting career. he had been in the united states military, but up and down. he had been both successful and also lost several battles. but he was in charge of this, of the military aspects of it. he was in charge of this procession. and he was very fond of the women. that's how the name "hooker" got attached to certain aspects of -- now you see the beautiful beautiful hearse. six horses pulling it. absolutely gorgeous. drums beating in a very slow drumbeat. you can see the instruments perhaps, of the band. you are looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gates. >> richard, what about, as we can see in the hearse, the coffin? that is a re-creation of the actual coffin of lincoln. is there something special, i assume, a-make coffin for the president? richard: it was. a group of people who did an amazing amount of research on the accuracy, what they rebuilt for this occasion. it has been on display. i have seen it. it is absolutely gorgeous, and they have done a wonderful wonderful job. here comes now the reverend hendrie brown -- henry brown with the horse of abraham lincoln. he is a black man. he was an underground railroad conductor who worked for the lincolns. he was living in quincy, and he came to springfield to lead lincoln's horse in the funeral. you can see that. that's very moving. in back of me now the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. you can see the pallbearers lined up walking with the hearse. many of the pallbearers are descendents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart. his grandfather was john todd stewart, who was the first law partner of abraham lincoln. he is in the procession today. now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault. it has become very quiet. and you can see the pallbearers walking back with a white sash. the hearse is now approaching the receiving vault. it is about to stop. it has stopped. >> richard, what division is this that would be accompanying the hearse most closely? richard: i'm sorry? >> which division would have been that we are seeing close to the hearse. richard: i'm not exactly certain . there were many divisions. many of them came from camp butler, which was a union camp just east of springfield. it became a prisoner of war camp, and many of these were units, the wisconsin brigade i'm sorry, the michigan brigade. they are pulling the hearse now off to the side, and, i lost this -- >> there you see the ostrich plumes they referred to earlier. was that a common symbol of mounrrning in the victorian era? richard: i think it was. but i don't think anything approached this carriage. this carriage was probably the ultimate example of the taurean funeral carriages. >> richard, 150 years ago, were there for and dignitaries -- foreign dignitaries present? richard: yes. one of the callers asked that earlier. my book lists the various people that were here. there were probably 20 generals from the civil war. davis, a supreme court justice. there were many people. the president, obviously, was not here, johnson. but there were a number of dignitaries who came with them -- within the weeks after the burial. >> that was my question. given the difficulty in travel and communication 150 years ago if any europeans or anyone from outside the united states was able to arrive in springfield in time, with president lincoln dying on april 15 and his funeral on may 4th. richard: i'm not aware of any diplomatic or foreign representatives or any europeans who may have come for the funeral. i'm not aware of that. i will say this. at the end of the general procession in the original order , it was the colored people and others, as this came into the cemetery, they were assembled approximately 10,000 african-americans to pay their respects. >> we have been looking at some of these divisions. we are told that the first edition was headed up by the marshal in chief, major general joseph hooker. the second division was military not assigned to other units, individual soldiers and retired military. the third division, that was the question that had the pallbearers around the hearse. family members, the orator of the day, clergy members, the veterans reserve corps. fourth division was a congressional delegation and governors. fifth division was local governments. the sixth division, members of christian sanitary commissions and similar organizations, aid societies and delegations from universities and colleges. the seventh division, members of social organizations like the freemasons and local fire companies. the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up there, 150 years ago. they were re-creating that to some extent today, i am. richard: yes, not as fully as at that time. the original procession 150 years ago, was much larger than today. >> you can see the fire company in period costume. richard: there's a great photograph of the fire company in downtown springfield, right before they left on the procession. it is an absolutely wonderful photograph. it's interesting. you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings. the color would means thing, or the way they were draped would mean something. that was a way of identifying. as you can see, many people have the funeral medallion on, as i have on my coat this afternoon. these are people that are dressed as reenactors. notice, none of them wear black. you know why that is? and that time, only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. you are not supposed to dress in black if you are not a member of the family. >> i assume that applied more to the ladies perhaps than the gentleman. a number of gentleman are wearing the waistcoat in black, but that would have been there every day we -- their everyday w. we are watching with richard hart in springfield illinois, the reenactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln some 150 years ago. bringing you that this afternoon on american history tv, sees -- c-span 3. when the procession has been solved way in, then there is a reenactment of the air money including the -- ceremony including the oratory. we will bring that to you as well. let's watch this now, the soldiers moving the coffin. richard: you see the umbrellas. all the photographs of the funeral in 1865, they are a mass of umbrellas because of the heat of the day, just like today. >> again, a live picture on your screen from springfield, illinois. this is a re-creation of the funeral of abraham lincoln, which took place some 150 years ago. this weekend, you see reenactors in the period-appropriate uniforms of the union army. with us, we are hearing the voice of richard hart, an expert on the subject and a springfield resident. an expert on the funeral of abraham lincoln. he has written a book on the subject. your book is called what richard? richard: "the funeral of abraham lincoln, may 3rd and 4th 1865." >> how long did it take you to research for that both? how long have you been interested in that particular event in the life of abraham lincoln? richard: at least the last few years. i collected photographs of 19th century springfield for some time, so i had a number of photographs of the funeral. i knew that this funeral was coming i knew this funeral was coming up and i had never thought about this before. i thought it was kind of a boring topic but it is fascinating. the whole story from the time of the assassination to the burial, it is an incredible story. it took me about three years. >> and obviously, the event capturing the imagination of many others, the reenactors, are those costumes sewn at their own expense? they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? richard: yes, it is, and it can become very expensive, not only the costumes and outfits, but the military equipment and guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for the military person that they buy. and there are actually events where they go -- there is a huge place to buy things for reenactors. it can become a very expensive hobby. but there seems to be great enjoyment in doing it, and great camaraderie among the participants. one of them told me, you see us perform during the day, but our camps at night, it's like las vegas. whatose camps have to stay in those camps. -- has to stay in those camps. they say they have a lot of fun. the body is now being taken, i believe, around for a viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin that you mentioned earlier, in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. and of course, the flowers. and every town that the training went through, it seemed they were just enormous bouquets of flowers ever offered. some of them were put on the outside of the training -- of the train, but just an outpouring of floral tributes. >> as we approach the actually creation richard of the ceremony -- we are talking to richard hart about this reenactment of president lincoln funeral. what sort of clergy involvement was there? was there a denominational or nondenominational ceremony? richard: william simpson, who was the minister, he was the principal speaker. i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either read psalms or other religious passages and the music , some of it was very traditional music for funerals. but there were a number of musical pieces written for the funeral. it seems to me there was a long funeral service with -- i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, i think, sibley because the people that spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife mary, belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield. but lincoln had heard simpson and thought he was just an outstanding minister. the people here now are assembling before a large stage that has been erected. that would not have been there at the time of the actual funeral. this, i think, is done so that the people here can see and hear today. but this stage, it has a large lectern with an abraham lincoln medallion on the front of it and flowers around it and different plants. one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now, and the coffin is on a black table with a black tablecloth over it. you can see it now. then behind that and toward the other hill here, there are assembled people in period dress. the men, some of them in top hats and ladies, as i said, all in dresses other than black. some of them had parasols and umbrellas. and the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see up the hill and back. people are standing. and then behind the ball on the hill going up -- the vault on the hill going up to lincoln's tomb. and these pictures that still exist, the people were positioned this way at that time. as i say, the stage was not something that was there in 1865 , but perhaps everyone will be able to better see and hear. >> richard -- richard: there is also a big screen tv out here for everyone to be able to see what is going on. >> lets at that question. in 1865, in springfield, illinois -- richard: the oaktree's are outstanding. >> richard, can you hear me? i was going to ask you -- richard: they have been trimmed for this occasion. we had a drought several years ago, and some of the oaks were taken down within the last week by volunteers. the wood has been dated -- or the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era. so they are saving the tree would and making that in -- the tree wood and making it into mementos for people who visit oak ridge and want to have such a memento. >> as you can see here, on c-span3, the reenactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral. we are going to thank our guest on site there in springfield richard hart, for being with us all afternoon and offering his insight. richard, the author of the book "the funeral of lincoln." this is american history tv on c-span3. as you can see, this reenactment on this beautiful spring day in springfield, well underway, and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when the funeral reenactment itself as then, we will have the chance for you to talk with an historian and we will take some more of your phone calls. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good afternoon. we thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly as we do these things necessary for president lincoln. at this time, i would like to introduce to you linville -- lyn bull, who will be portraying reverend hale. reverend: let's pray. father, we acknowledge every good and perfect gift. thou give us light and take away . the nations are in thy hands. we ask that with submissive hearts we make knowledge thee in this serious thought that impress upon those here today. we thank the, father in heaven that thou has given him to his people and raced into a position of power and authority that through him, thou hast led to the hopeful condition of public affairs. we mourn, our hearts out in grief and sorrow. and we do especially remember the bereaved widow and family and we pray that god gives to them those blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation, that they in their grief may make this event not only one of sorrow but a day of blessings. we commit to them and all relatives in morning consequence to this distressing events, this affection that he holds today in his death stronger than in life. help us to remember the value of his life and the worthiness he has shown us. we do beseech that the high purpose for which he lived will be carried to completion. and a steady adherence to truth a love of freedom, and opposition to wrong, in justice and slavery and we pray that god would grant that the policy of our government touching these great issues may successfully be carried through. and not a slave will be shackled in the land and not a soul will be found that will not read -- rejoice in his power over the nations. oh god, our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who so mysteriously has called to occupy the chair of state. give him humility. give him wisdom to direct his steps. give him a love of righteousness and help them cherish the freedom of the people while he sits at the helm of the nation. our father in heaven, we pray thee remember those that have come out of bondage. may all the people united in our prayers, their patients, their self-denial, so that these may come up and take their place as citizens, rejoicing in newborn privileges and in the right that god gave an man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we asked by blessings on all those here today to secure in the public interest against the hands of an assassin and to prevent the murder of those in high places. oh god, let thy justice, thy righteousness and power be against those who lust for power. and let the union become a light for the future nations of earth in future time. father in heaven, you are righteous in all your ways. we are sinful and unworthy of our privileges, but thou has not rewarded us according to our iniquities. except through our christ, our redeemer, and everlasting, amen. ♪ [choir sings a capella] ♪ ♪ >> benjamin goal will be portraying dr. noyce w minor. doctor: a reading from job chapter 19. how fitting -- have pity upon me , my friends. for the hand of god has touched me. why do you persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh? oh, that my words were now written, oh that they were printed in a book that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever. for i know my redeemer lives and he will stand in a latter day upon the earth and though after my skin worms destroy this body yet in my flesh i shall see god whom i shall see for myself. in my eyes shall behold, and not another. though migraines be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ [choir sings a capella] ♪ >> chief justice frank j, rhode island supreme court retired will portray dr. matthew simpson. doctor: fellow citizens in illinois and in many parts of our entire nation, near the capital of this large and growing a of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove and at the fault, which is about --the vault which is about to receive the fallen remained of our chieftain, we gather and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago he left his plane and quiet home, exchanging his parting words with friends who gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century , where his children had been born and where he enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an earnest request in the hearing of some who are present at this hour that as he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any which had fallen upon any man the days of washington. people would offer up prayers that god would sustain him in his work. he left your quiet city, but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only through the vigilance of officers and the prayers of the people. so that final tragedy was suspended for more than four years. how different the occasion which witnessed his departure from that which witnessed his return. doubtless you expected to take him by the hand and feel his warm breath and see -- feel his warm grasp and see his tall form walking among you. but he was never to return until he came with lips and silent, the frame in coffin, and with a weeping nation, his mourners. there have been never has there been such morning with that which has accompanied this funeral procession for the loved one who now sleeps among us could. strongmen as they clasped the hands of their friends were not able to find words to express their grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow. the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields, factories ceased and the sound of the hammer was not heard. busy merchants closed their doors and businesses and homes were draped in black. three weeks have elapsed and there is a mournful silence upon the land. this morning is not confined to any class or any district of the country. men of all political parties and all religious creeds have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and a protestant ministers walk side-by-side in a jewish rabbi performed a solemn service. here, gathered around his tomb our soldiers, sailors, senators, judges governors come officers of all the branches of government. men and women from the humblest and highest occupations. here are tears, sincere and warm , which come from the eyes of those who have freed from their chains by him, who may mourn -- they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed upon the face of the departed than ever looked upon the face of any other departed man. more have looked on the procession for 1600 miles by night and by day, by sunlight, don, twilight and torchlight than ever before walked -- watched the progress of a procession. why has there been this extensive morning, great outpouring of grief and this great procession? perhaps it is because of the time in which we live, in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change, a time of war in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wives give their husbands and mothers their sons to the cause. many never returned and there was morning in every home in the land. then came signs that the end of this rebellion was near. news came that richmond has fallen and lee has surrendered. the bells rang merrily all over the land. the blooming of canon was heard. illuminations and -- families were looking for the speedy return of their loved ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy, in one hour, in one minute, all the joy was filled when news that abraham lincoln, the best of presidents have perished by the hand of an assassinate. then all the feelings which had been gathering for four years turned into one whale of woe -- wail of woe, a sadness inexpressible. he was stricken down when his hopes were bright and prospects of a joyous life were before him. perhaps the great cause of this mourning is to be found in the man himself. he was no ordinary man. conviction had been growing on the nation's mind that by the hand of god, he was singled out to guide our government in these troubled times. he had a quick and ready perception of facts, a memory unusually tenacious and retentive and a logical turn of mind which followed unwaveringly every link in the chain of thought on subjects which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds, more broad in their character, more copperheads of in their scope, but he had the ability to follow step-by-step with more logical power, the points which he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to proceed -- perceive the truth in all its relations and simplicity and when found, to utter it. his moral power gave him preeminence. the people saw abraham lincoln as an honest man who would do what was right regardless of the consequences. it was this moral feeling which gave him the greatest toll -- hold on the people. the great act on which his fame shall rest long after his reign shall molder away is that of giving freedom to erase. such a power was such an opportunity that god has seldom given to man. when other events shall have been forgotten, when his world shall have become a network of republics, when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth, when literature shall enlighten all lines, when the claims of humanity shall be recognized everywhere, this act shall be conspicuous on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the decision in wisdom and grace to issue that proclamation which stands high above all other papers which have been and by uninspired men. --he was known as an honest, temperate, forgiving man. a just man. a man of noble -- look over his speeches, listen to his utterances. he never spoke unkindly of any man. even the rebels received no word of anger from him. in his domestic life, he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted husband and father. standing as we do today by his coffin and his sepracor, let us do right by all men. let us bow in the side of heaven to eradicate every vestige of human slavery. to give every human being history position before god and man, to crush every form of rebellion and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when come in the beautiful words of him whose lives are forever sealed, the mystic clause of memories from every patriot grave to every living hot stone all over this broad land will yet swell a course of the union when by the better angels of our nature -- she can, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to their children. the youth of our land shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your records and learn lessons of wisdom. your lips still speak. hushed is your voice, but its echoes of liberty are ringing through the world and the sons of bondage listened with joy. prison you are, yet you are marching abroad and chains are bursting with your touch. we crown you as our martyr and humanity and thrones you as our triumphant son, hero martyr, friend farewell. [applause] [chorus singing] >> reverend jerome kowalski will portray reverend ac hubbard. >> being the first week of march, 1865, stepped into the capital of washington city, the 16th president of these united states gave his second inaugural address. this is what mr. lincoln said. fellow countrymen, at this second appearing to take the oath of the presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address then there was at the first. a statement someone in detail of a course to be pursued was fitting and proper. now, at the expiration of four years -- which still absorbs the attention and energies of the nation, little that is new could be present. the progress of our arms upon all else chiefly depends -- it is reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all, but i hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. on the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it, all thought to avert it, while the inaugural address is being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the union without war and surgeon agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war. seeking to dissolve the union by negotiation. both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make more rather than let the nation survive and the other would accept war rather than let it perish and war came. 18 of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the union but localized to the southern part of it. these slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. all knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. to strengthen corporate -- insurgents would render the union while the government claimed no more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. neither party expected the war the magnitude or the duration which had already attained. neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might seize -- each look for an easier triumph and the result was astounding. both read from the same bible both prey to the same god, each invokes his against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance -- let us not judge that we not be judged. the prayers of both cannot be answered. that neither has been answered fully, the almighty has his own purposes. woe onto the world because of its offensive, needs be the offensive,, but woe to that man by whom the offensive -- if american slavery is one of those offenses, he now wills to remove -- he gives to both north and south this terrible war as the woes do by those -- shall we discern any departure from those divine attributes? finally do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. until every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn by the sword -- it was said to 3000 years ago, the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. with malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as god gives us the right to see, let us strive to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle, for his widow and orphan, to all which may achieve and cherish a jesting and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. [applause] [chorus sings "amazing grace"] [applause] >> i am reverend thomas b -- let us raise our prayers before the lord. oh god, before whose face -- the strength of those who labor and the repose of the blessed gathered to rejoice in the communion of the saints. we remember all who have faithfully lived, all who have peacefully died, those most year to us and especially our leader, abraham lincoln, who now rests in peace. give us a portion with those who trust -- to do your holy will. unto thy name with the church on earth and the church in heaven describe all honor and glory, world without end, amen. [chorus singing] >> reverend gene r cocker will portray dinsmore gurley. >> with your kind permission may i be permitted to share some portions of the words which were offered at the funeral service for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19 as we stand here today warners around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate, we recognized and we adore -- his throne is in the heavens and his kingdom rule of over all. he has permitted to be done whatsoever he pleased. whom the lord of love -- oh how these blessed words have cheered and strengthened and sustained us through all these long and weary years of civil strife while our friends and brothers on so many fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthened and sustain us today. true, this new sorrow has come in such an hour and such a way as we thought not. that he should be taken from us and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country. just as he was beginning to be animated and gladdened with the people, the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self-sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home here in illinois and coming to the city of washington to take his seat at the executive chair of a disturbed and troubled nation, he said to the old and tried friends who gathered tearfully around him, i leave you with this request. pray for me. they didn't pray for him. -- they did pray for him and millions prayed for him. their prayer was heard and the answer appears in all of his subsequent history. it shines forth with a heavenly radiance in the whole course and tenor of his administration from its commitments this commencement to its close. furnished him for his work and aided him in its accomplishments. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and tenacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things, he gave him a call and a confidence in the overruling providence of god and the ultimate triumph of truth and righteousness through the power and blessings of god. this confidence strengthen him in all his hours of anxiety and toil and inspired him with cheering hope when others were inclining to despondency and gloom. never shall i forget the emphasis and deep emotion with which he said in the east room of his executive mansion to a company of clergymen and others to pay him respects "gentlemen, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation that justice and goodness of god." when prospects very dark, i still hope that in some way which man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just an god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith and it was an anchor to his soul, both sure and steadfast. by dwelling constantly on your words and actions, our beloved president, your people will happen illustrious character before their eyes and not content with the bear image of your mortal frame, it will have what is more valuable, the form and features of your mind. busts and statues are frail and perishable. but you have delineated with truth and fairly consigned it to posterity will survive yourself and triumph over the injuries of time. let us pray. almighty god, our loving father, we commanded to the mercy the soul of thy humble servant abraham and we pray that having opened unto him the gates of larger life he may be received more and more into by loving presence that he may enter into the blessed rest promised to all thy saints. grant us by that grace to cherish the good work done in him and by the agency of empowering spirit, it may we be enabled to carry forward -- and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. remembering that great mercies and kindness, we ask these things or the sake of the holy name amen. -- for the sake of thy holy name, amen. [chorus singing] >> it is my honor and privilege to introduce a woman i met a few months ago and now call a very good friend. katie's and sindell. [applause] katie: this thing with guests -- distinguished guests, reenactors who are very distinguished ladies and gentlemen in 1865 the funeral of abraham lincoln the very dark and difficult time in life and how honored we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1865. it truly has been an honor. [applause] there are a couple of additions we want to add to the program. i think you will all appreciate. would the pallbearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the actual history. and we were able to do that within our pallbearers. i know they are coming. would you be kind enough gentlemen, to come along the front here. and, if you can, single file. as a genealogist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you all to know right now is within these pallbearers, we have direct descendents of the original pallbearers. would you please stand -- step forward, those of you who are descendents, please step forward. [applause] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are re-creating the role their ancestor played, and i am truly honored that they are here. i want to thank the springfield choral society and the community members i have no idea how many -- i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them -- [applause] their director has had to put up an awful lot with me. [laughter] [applause] i also want to thank the band over here. [applause] while we are doing this, we also need to thank our interpreter today. [applause] i would like to now, as a commander and the crew from the uss abraham lincoln who have honored springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. [applause] they will be placing a wreath at the vault, and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me, you will see it when it is son. we will let them get on with their great work. [no audio] commander and crew, we are honored to have you here. [applause] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here but around the world. the gentleman that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it is difficult. an extraordinary man was part of our group, and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it is now to make sure that keith is represented here with that empty chair. [applause] we also had two alternates for the clergy, one of them is reverend anderson. the other is malcolm shotwell. and i'm grateful to them for always being able to pinch hit when we need it. [applause] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit into history yet again. general hooker, the rest of the program, sir, is yours. general hooker: abraham lincoln, our favorite son, our neighbor our friend, taken from us far too soon, did live to see a house divided. was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787. pennsylvania, 1787. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788. maryland, 1788. south carolina, 1788. new hampshire, 1788. virginia, 1788. new york, 1788. north carolina, 1789. rhode island, 1790. vermont, 1791. kentucky, 1792. tennessee, 1796. ohio, 1803. louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi, 1817. illinois, 1818. alabama, 1819. maine, 1720. missouri, 1721. arkansas, 1836. michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa, 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1860. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada, 1864. and the war was over. [gunshot] [applause] and now, he belongs to the ages. thank you. [applause] [gunshots] ♪ >> that brings to an end the reenactment of lincoln's funeral in springfield, illinois. in just a minute, the university of illinois scholar michael burling will be joining us to take your calls and talk about this day. he's the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." 202-748-8901 is a number for mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on twitter or facebook. professor burling, what was it like 150 years ago? michael: very similar. the conditions that prevailed today are quite similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? michael: yes. his widow was upset by the plans made to have him buried in the center of town. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge, which is north of the center of town. she claims that it was her husband's wish. she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago, until authorities bowed to her wishes. it was legitimate, because the widow has the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. she was not there. she was so grief-stricken by the assassination, that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination. her older son, robert, came out here. but he was the only family member that made it to springfield for the occasion. >> today's events, how accurate from your research? michael: based on what i have discovered, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making this as historically accurate and authentic as possible. >> professor, what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day? michael: i assume the crowd dispersed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. he is a professor at the university of illinois springfield and a lincoln next -- expert. caller: hi. my question is, the symbolic vote that the local springfield committee made, i think there was about 16 members. would that vote, is it symbolic to vote on or in the president's wife's wishes. if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on another plot? michael: it is not entirely clear what would happen if the 8-7 vote has been reversed. it is possible that she would have insisted to bury him elsewhere. the funeral vault beneath the capital had been created for george washington, but he is buried in mount vernon. there is an empty space, as it were. >> 20 days between his death and his funeral. how do they preserve the body? michael: with embalmers. one of the more alarming aspects is that the funeral train proceeded from washington to baltimore, then philadelphia the new york, harrisburg, and so on. albany, buffalo, cleveland chicago, then springfield. the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artists were hard-pressed to keep the corpse from looking like a mummy. by the time he reached here, he was more like a mummy then the man in real life. >> is it what we call an open casket when he was there? michael: yes, open casket. caller: i would like to know how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred? wasn't there a fear about, the tomb wasn't finished yet and they put him somewhere inside of it -- i'm not sure. michael: i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the vault before it was closed rapidly. but it was a while. >> his body has been at oak ridge ever since, correct? michael: correct. caller: i would just like to make a comment. the program was outstanding, except for the fact that i don't feel that the tourists and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful. of our fallen president. i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible shameful way to act, laughing and cheering on when they are carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. do you know how many people were at oak ridge on that day? michael: i'm sorry, i don't. caller: hello. how many years did abraham live in springfield? michael: mr. lincoln moved into the house in 1844 and left in 1861, so he was there for 17 years. the house that we know today was not there until 1856. most of the time that lincoln spent in that house, it was a one story modern house. it was in the last five years that they lived in a house with the extra story added, that was done by mrs. lincoln. when we visit the house, we get a distorted view of what it looked like. it was much more cramped than what we find when we go to the house today. >> if people come to visit springfield, what will they see that is reflected of abraham lincoln and his life? michael: there is a great deal here. it is what i somewhat irreverently referred to as the holy land. you have the lincoln home, the lincoln tomb, the lincoln law office, and the old state capitol where he served as the legislator as a young man and where he gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station from which he departed for washington in 1861 and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so, there is a great deal to be seen. on top of that, you have abraham lincoln's museum, which is quite a magnificent place for visitors to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham lincoln. so, please come. >> c-span was live with the opening of that museum. you can find that at c-span.org if you would like to watch our coverage. caller: hello. are there any other immediate family members of abraham lincoln buried their? -- there? michael: yes. mrs. lincoln is buried here and willie is buried here and eddie is buried here. all three sons -- three of the four sons are buried here. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. he served as a captain during the war, and as a military veteran, his wife thought he should be buried and arlington cemetery. when i discovered that, i went out to arlington to visit his grave, and i was startled to see that his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> what was mary todd lincoln's life like in springfield? michael: she was not very popular in springfield. she had antagonized her sisters, she had antagonized neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband's death. she spent time in chicago, she spent time abroad and only in the later years it did she come back to springfield to stay with her sister, so she was staying away. lincoln was asked by his friend on what he planned to do after his second term is over and he said he planned to return to springfield. he was very fond of springfield and wished to return to the city. >> rene is in new castle delaware, hi. >> i was calling to ask the gentleman in the reenactment today, was the casket that was carried -- is that lincoln's actual casket or a replica? >> on sorry. >> was that the replica casket or the same one that carried president lincoln's body? >> it was a replica. >> do you know where that replica came from, where it is stored? >> i do not. where it caller: hi. it is an honor to speak to you. about what happened with robert lincoln. 30 or 40 years later, when they had to go into the tomb and open up the casket, check something about the president can you talk about why that was necessary, please? michael: i'm not intimately familiar with that story. but there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the president, and the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i cannot give you more details about that. >> what do you teach at the university of illinois? michael: i teach a course on the reconstruction, and a seminar on abraham lincoln. caller: i was wondering if this is the first time there has ever been a reenactment of his interment. if not why 150 years later? why has there never been one before and why now? michael: i don't know the answer to that. i know that the people that have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have been extremely conscientious. it is a good question. i don't have the answer to your question. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? michael: no, there are no lineal descendents. robert litan had a son, but he died young. caller: i thought they tried to take his body several times, s michael: yes, the body was actually moved around. there has been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body. it was the gang that could not shoot straight, and it failed but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil future attempts. >> why the train route that was taken from washington back to springfield? michael: prof. burlingame: the train ride which re-created the train ride he took from illinois to washington. chicago was added on the return trip. it was undertaken and part two allow -- to allow the public to express morning, not just for abraham lincoln, but the outpouring of grief it was accompanying the funeral train was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war, many of him could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buriedin in unmarked graves. and so in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they live in similar communities. and so, when a family member was dying, you would be present with that person. you would attend the funeral and the like. and this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands of thousands of people could not do that. and so the train ride was a kind of cathartic exercise which allowed the nation, at least the north, to engage and morning not only for the fallen leader but for their fall in love points. that i think is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin. one of the most striking things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the reminiscences of people who as children were taken to see the train. as they worote about it in later years, they were more struck by the fact not that they saw the train itself but that they saw tears in their parent's eyes. host: who are some of the dignitaries that attended abraham lincoln's funeral? prof. burlingame: the dignitaries that attended the funeral work as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurnee, who the preacher at the new york avenue presbyterian church where president lincoln attended worship services during his presidency. bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church, the largest church in the country at that time. and local authorities including his good friends who had worked with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the potomac in 1863. and several other people of that sort. host: but not ulysses s. grant? prof. burlingame: no. host: juan, georgia. go ahead. caller: professor burlingame? i happened to live in springfield in the 1940's. i lived west of town. [voice breaking up] i used to walk from the capitol building to petersburg where lincoln's village was. and back that day to get, earn a badge. we had a well on the front lawn and i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts from all over the country. my sunday school teacher, i attended the first methodist church in springfield on n fit street. and my sunday school teacher was judge logan's. grandson. we heard many stories about mr. lincoln. i do not remember a lot of them, i was seven years old, but judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. yes. and -- his grandson in atlanta right now. and i talked to him not too long ago. host: michael birmingham, who is judge logan? prof. burlingame: judge logan was lincoln's second law partner. he had three law partners. he started off with john stewart with whom he served in the legislature and in the blackhawk war. his second law partner with stephen t logan. stephen to logan was probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very incidental in teaching lincoln the law. and lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln cannot get along very well with his own father. he was rather estranged from his own father. older men in positions of authority like judge logan served as surrogate fathers for lincoln. he was one of the most important. he was also political ally. they were good members of the whig party together. and champions of the republican party. and judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge logan. there are many people in springfield whose ancestors are close to lincoln. in fact, this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. my ancestor was closer to lincoln than yours. i horn in by saying well, my great-grandfather was lincoln's ambassador to china but that does not cut any ice and spring field. host: just doing a little bit of math and up to 1920 there were a lot of people living in springfield who had actually known abraham lincoln. did anyone -- prof. burlingame: up until that time, yes. host: did anyone ever do or history? prof. burlingame: yes. there was quite a lot of oral history done. one of the great contributions to lincoln's studies was an oral history project that was undertaken by his law partner william herndon. as soon as the president died, herndon corresponded with an interview people in indiana and illinois and kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on lincoln . then in subsequent years newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and interview people for -- who knew lincoln. those interviews are externally valuable and they can be found in newspapers and they can be found in the field notes and research notes of the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln, a life to go to brown the university in providence, rhode island, which is an excellent collection because john hay, his assistant personal secretary went to brown. and i discovered a whole cache of valuable interviews that had been conducted by haye, and also by his fellow secretary in the white house. all kinds of new information. yes, there is a treasure trove or reminisces about lincoln. they have to be treated with caution because people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. as mark twain once said, the older i get the more vividly i remember things that never happened. but if you use reminiscences in conjunction with contemporary documents, they can be extremely revealed to it i have made good use of those. host: michael burlingame. the abraham lincoln association book prize in 1996. his book won the 2010 lincoln prize. what, about 1000 pages you have a netbook? prof. burlingame: no, it is 2000 pages. it weighs nine pounds. don't drop it on your foot. because it is so big and clumsy, i recommend, the 200 p0 pages are awkward to hold i recommend that people get it on kindle or ipad. they should be warned that as soon as you download abraham lincoln a life, your device becomes much heavier. host: craig is calling from pennsylvania. caller: hello, professor. my question has to do with the reenactors carrying the coffins. i assume that they were representing the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the old ones who carry the coffin of president lincoln from -- all the way from washington to spring field. in springfield and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the so-called pallbearers and the veteran reserve corps. and secondly, my understanding the veteran reserve corps actually received a medal of honor for their honorary duty in guarding and escorting the body of president lincoln. prof. burlingame: the veteran reserve corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i did not know the story about the medal of honor. that is quite remarkable. that is a remarkable fact. i'm glad to learn it. host: mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon. you're on with professor michael burlingame in o ak ridge cemetery, in spring field, illinois. caller: there was a caller earlier who asked about what happened later in the day and i came across a quote in a book i have called "20 days." and it was published -- back in 1965. and it says later that day back in springfield a crowd went to stand in front of the governor's mansion and listen to the band of the st. louis regimen which had come to march and the funeral procession. serenade the governor. it was the first time quick time is it was heard in springfield in three weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. prof. burlingame: that is a touching story. thanks. caller: it is a wonderful book. i pulled it off my shelf. i had it in my lap watching the reenactment today. so it has been nice. prof. burlingame: it is a remarkable book. a huge collection of materials. that he compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. it is the repository of one of the best image collections of lincoln in the country. host: we have been live in springfield for several hours on american history tv. if you missed any of it, and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time, everything we have shown today will re-air on c-span 3 on the weekend. lisa from california, hi, lisa. caller: hello. host: go ahead, ma'am. caller: i wanted to know was it lincoln's -- what was lincoln's favorite food? host: what made you curious about that? calllerer: i don't know. they were talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat? host: let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. prof. burlingame: friend of mine,, his favorite food was chicken fricassee and mashed potatoes and strober shortcake. i've a friend who has written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he of the sizes that is lincoln 's -- emphasizes that as lincoln 's favorite meal. he is famously not a foodie. his assistant presidential secretary said he was a man who was not much of a connoisseur of, or gourmet. that he ate what was put before him without complaining. he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers would travel around from one county seat to the next every fall and spring out here in central illinois, and all the other lawyers would grouse about the food but lincoln would not. one day, even his legendary patientsce wore thin. and he said to the house sir with this after dinner beverages coffee. would you please bring me tea? if this is tea would you please bring me coffee? how was that for a gentle way to register a complaint. host: hi mike. caller: hi fellas. you pledge before there were no direct descendents of abraham and lincoln alive. however, nancy hanks, her sister is tom hanks great great great grandmother. i thought that was kind of neat. prof. burlingame: right. so there is a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to lincoln's mother side. but no descendents of lincoln himself, that his, his son or his children did not have grandchildren who then also had children of their own. host: margaret in des moines. hi, margaret. caller: hi. i was wondering if lincoln was buried in spring field illinois, they always told me he was buried in a statue of lincoln in washington d.c. so where was he originally buried? prof. burlingame: he was buried out here but at the lincoln memorial, the lincoln memorial on the mall in washington is a great tribute to him. but he is not buried there. host: go ahead, sir. prof. burlingame: i was going to say, of course it is a magnificent trivia to lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things about the lincoln memorial, as you look at the statue, if you face to the right eisai -- whoa -- you see -- whoa! [laughter] host: i take it something went flying. did the wind grab something? prof. burlingame: a tent blew over. everybody ok? host: sounds windy out there. prof. burlingame: but anyway, when you go to the lincoln memorial one of the striking things you see is not just a magnificent statue but also the second inaugural address, the text on the right-hand wall and the -- and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. host: if you cannot get through on the phone lines, you can try social media @c-span history is american history's twitter address, or join the conversation on abraham lincoln@facebook.com/c-span history. theresa, lebanon, indiana. caller: hello. host: hi. hello. caller: you had a question from a caller asking about the movement of lincoln's body within his tomb. andf years ago, when i was a very small child, nine or 10 years old, i read a story in look magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure it was indeed him in the coffin. and i remember the story well because it freaked me out terribly because he describes in detail the condition of his skin the condition of his clothing, and everything else. and then he told the story about why he was there. and that story stayed with me forever until a few years ago when i googled the story again and the man passed away in the 1980's or something. but he was very young. they said they were moving him to make sure the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his body being stolen. and another course and its place. that is what i remember reading from look magazine. prof. burlingame: speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend, a woman who is reading to her four-year-old son a book about lincoln. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. it's a return to his mother and said mommy, do i have the story right? the president went to the theater and he was watching the play, then he got shot while watching the play but he did not die until the next morning. his mother said, that's right. the boy thought about that and thought about that. then he said well, at least you got to see the end of the play. host: up next -- prof. burlingame: this is a true story. host: john in lake city, florida. you are on american history tv. caller: thank you for what you're doing. i have one question and one something to see if you can answer. the first is regarding the mythology behind president lincoln, the great the mensa paid her, i do not believe he knew that term and it was a term that was invented by the media -- the great emancipator. secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a tyrant when in reality my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution his adversaries did the same but yet, i see authors such as the kennedy brothers continually downgrade him in this manner. i do not understand why that is. prof. burlingame: there are cranks and lunatic fringe in all fields, and i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking thing about lincoln during the civil war is that the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than during the war with france in 1798 when the congress passed the alien and sedition acts which tried to crush the jeffersonian republican party. much less repressive than world war i when this sedition and espionage acts were passed witchcraft down very severely-- which crackdown very severely on all forms of dissent. world war ii when 120,000 japanese americans were incarcerated with no trial, no due process and the like. the striking thing about the civil war is how much there was suppression -- was not how how much the suppression of civil liberties, but how little. especially considering how it was a very serious domestic, civil war were seven times was much more prominent than it was in world war i or world war ii. the main complain about lincoln 's civil liberties is that he suspended the privilege of the write of habeas corpus but the constitution says the privilege may be suspended in times of domestic rebellion or foreign invasion. the original language of that portion of the constitution set the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in times of domestic -- or foreign invasion. they cut out the phrase by the legislature. it was clear the president had that authority. so, lincoln's record on civil liberties is distorted by people's -- people like thomas dilorenzo. host: a minute ago we were showing entrance to the tune with the iron doors at oak ridge of the above. -- to the tomb. was that built for ever have lincoln and what you see when you go through those iron doors? prof. burlingame: i cannot say for certain. i'm not sure was created certain for him. host: you have never been through those doors huh? prof. burlingame: right. host: so are visitors allowed to go? prof. burlingame: no. no the tomb itself is entered from a very different angle. and different elevation. host: oh, up the stairs. prof. burlingame: right. host: mike in columbus, ohio. yes, sir. go ahead, professor. prof. burlingame: i was just going to say that the tomb on the monument above the tomb is really quite striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the direction of the monument was -- the erection of the monument that mrs. lincoln insisted that the monument be buried by the tomb. she had every right to insist on bearing her where she saw fit. she did not have the right to insist on where the monument would be placed, but she was rather -- a rather imperious woman when she got her way. caller: professor, i wanted to ask you -- was abraham lincoln a good lawyer? did you get along with the news media and has history made him bigger than he really was? prof. burlingame: um, he was a good lawyer. he was not a great lawyer but he was a good provincial lawyer. very capable. and what th -- with the news media he got along very well. this was something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries john hey, two young men in their 20's write for newspapers, right defenses of the administration's annex the nations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments. that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york and missouri and elsewhere. and so he wanted to have the newspapers cover him favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate with the public that was very effective was an innovation on his part to write public letters to newspaper editors or two critics. -- to critics. they would get reprinted in newspapers of the day. in lieu of press, this, these were techniques that lincoln used to cultivate the press. was he bigger? has history made him bigger than he deserves? i don't think so. as time goes by, we have come to appreciate him as a larger and figure than even we appreciate today. host: james tweets. my mother tells me that she has an ancestor that was in lincoln 's from your area are -- funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? prof. burlingame: you can go to the abraham lincoln presidential library. the reference librarians would be eager to help you. host: garrtett is calling in from hanscom air force base. where is that? caller: it is between bedford and lexington. host: in kentucky? caller: no messages is. thank you for c-span. and professor, thank you for the book. -- no, massachusetts. my question is, since this is about the funeral. i had a question about what was -- would lincoln have done if he were still alive during that time? an additional question, do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? prof. burlingame: no you do not have to pay. on the question of, the question you pose is one that historians have try to answer for many years and that is what would've happened if lincoln had lived? when i was a student in school, chest after the punic war, i would've thought that lincoln would have been crucified by congress the way his successor andrew johnson was. lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during the war. december 1863, basically saying if you lay down your arms and except the evolution of slavery there will not be any punishment except for the highest ranking members of the confederate military and civilian government. then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that and congress objected vigorously and impeached him and he came within one vote of being removed from office. the argument that was prevalent when i was a student many years ago was that that is just what would've happened to lincoln. most historians do not agree with that now. because they say that what lincoln was doing in december of 1863 was to encourage southerners to throw in the towel, to surrender. they had suffered grievous defeats at gettysburg, vicksburg, fort hudson chattanooga. no reasonable southerner could believe they were going to win the war on the ground, but if they were offered general instead of specific peace terms, they would turn the tall. that motive no longer existed once robert e lee surrender. two days later on april 11 1855, lincoln gave a speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage, at least for the veterans of the union army and for the veyry intelligent, by which we assume he meant literate. frederick douglass who was in the audience heard the president give that speech and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. but frederick douglass said later, i should have known and we should've known that that was a terribly important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statement ship in the school of rail splitting and to split a rail, you insert a wedge into the log. then having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should've known that that is what lincoln was doing that day. and john wilkes booth heard that speech and he knew that that was a really significant speech. and he turned his colleagues and said, that means n word citizenship. by god that is the last speech he is ever going to give and i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln. not because lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation and not because he supported the 13th amendment abolishing slavery but because he called for black voting rights. i think it is appropriate for us in the 21st century to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king. or any of those people who were murdered in the 1960's as a champion the civil rights revolution of the 20th century. host: we have only got four minutes left with our guest. if you are interested in making comments are joining the conversation, go to our facebook page. quite a lively conversation going on. facebook.com/c-span history. robert in murfreesboro, tennessee p you are on. caller: i was wondering -- the southern generals or the southern congress was at lincoln 's funeral? prof. burlingame: i'm sorry i did not get that question. host: southern representative at abraham lincoln's funeral? any southern generals? prof. burlingame: no. there were nine generals from virginia who served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army, no. host: did robert ely have any reaction? -- robert e. lee have any reaction? prof. burlingame: i'm sure he did but i cannot tell you what it was off the top of my head. host: brian jeffersonville, indiana. caller: professor, a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of visiting the abc lincoln's -- abe lincoln's presidential library as well as the tomb. are most of abe lincoln's artifacts there at the library and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country? prof. burlingame: well, there are many artifacts here. and there is a huge collection of documents related to lincoln particular his pre-presidential life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. when i was writing my book, abraham lincoln, a life, i spent many summers here is an invaluable collection of. documents and newspapers and archival material. the library of congress also has a huge collection. lincoln's presidential papers or at the library of congress. and there is a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. many of those wound up in the national archives, and they are cubic acres of papers and conscientious crew in springfield has been poring through those archives looking for new documents. they find some remarkable documents not just to lincoln but some new documents by lincoln. bless their work. host: oak ridge cemetery is the location where university of illinois professor michael burlingame has joined us. his book is called "abraham lincoln, a life." two volume book. prof. burlingame: right. be sure to buy it. you do not have to read it. host: th >> she gained the reputation for being cleanly by her critics. louisa catherine adams is the only first lady to date on outside of the united states. she played an important role in her husband's 1824 presidential campaign, yet had difficulty winning the approval of her mother-in-law. abigail adams, elizabeth monroe and louisa catherine adams sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series "first ladies." examining the public and private lives of the women who filled first lady and their influence on the presidency. from martha washington to michelle obama. sundays on c-span3. each week, america history cap -- the american history tv takes you to museums and historic places. the travel to the national constitution center in philadelphia to learn about 42 bronze statues in signer's hall and to learn about the
lincoln's view of the world in one word, the word is -- is. he believes the united states is a country not the united states are. in the prior, states were reviewed as part of an overall confederation of states. he believed we were one country. and he wanted to bring the southern states back. second, he wanted to improve the status and the lot of the lives of the americans -- the african-americans living in the united states of the time it. those who were free before, and certainly those who became free. many of them as a result of lincoln's own efforts. when he was killed, everything changed. it sent back relations in this country over 100 years. and it setback the quality of life, and the economy and social development of the southern states to the point where many southern states to this day are lagging behind the rest of the country in education and health care and in so many other criteria. would this have been different if lincoln survived? impossible to know. but he would have tried. he was facing a congress that did not want to go that route. they wanted revenge. and that was racist. lincoln certainly had a lot of racist views. but could he have changed the course of american history if he had survived? i don't know. but i certainly think that the assassination of lincoln change the course of america in a way that, again, we are probably still suffering from. remarkably, a few days after the assassination, jefferson davis the president of the confederacy, made a statement of the saddest thing that happened to the south other than the civil war itself was the murder of abraham lincoln. there is a new book out professor at nyu "morning lincoln," which talked about how different people react to the assassination itself. there are so many mysteries about the lincoln assassination. but one of them that there is no mystery about is who did it. obviously, and the kennedy assassination, did lee harvey also will do it or did someone jump up from behind the car really grassy knoll or what have you. with the lincoln assassination it was almost immediately determined to john wilkes booth did it. people recognized him as he walked down the theater, people knew who he was. booth himself kept a diary in the 12 days after the assassination, before he himself was killed. in which he talked about killing lincoln. he had a band of conspirators, all of whom identified booth as the leader of the conspiracy. there was no doubt the john wilkes booth did it. the question we have to ask was john wilkes booth the head of the conspiracy or was there someone else about him? did someone steer booth to do it? northern abolitionists and what have you, we will go into those. the first part of this talk at and again, there will be two parts. the first part is that what happened. what were the events of the day and days after? in the second, was there a conspiracy involved? this is the last picture taken of president lincoln, the day after the civil war ended on april 10, four days before his assassination. this is the picture you see in the washington post all the time. what you don't see is the glass plate cracked when the photographer took it. and the photographer said this is a bad sign, and lincoln said no, it's a glass plate that cracked. he didn't think this was much he didn't make much of these types of symbolic act. it is important to note, when you think about the lincoln assassination, the john wilkes booth's original desire was not to kill lincoln, it was to kidnap lincoln. and to kidnap lincoln during the course of the civil war, bring him to the south and trade him for confederate soldiers particularly towards the end of the war when the confederacy was running out of soldiers, on at least two occasions -- excuse me, i have a bit of a cold. on at least two occasions, booth went to try and kidnap lincoln. once when lincoln was going to the soldiers home in northwest and lincoln had too many soldiers, so booth stopped and didn't do anything. the second time, lincoln didn't show up where he was expected to come. how do we deal with this assassination? a good place to start is where it started. a rock 'n roll restaurant in chinatown. it's on sixth and 8th street. here it is again. rock 'n roll. -- wok n roll. i'm sure no one will be surprised that it was not a chinese restaurant and 65. in 1855, this is what it looks like. it was a boarding house owned by a woman by the name of mary surratt. today there is a plaque outside of it. if you go there, it says where the conspirators plotted the induction of abraham like in 1865. so before looking at the plot to murder lincoln, let's look at the plot to kidnap lincoln. in doing that, we are going to meet most of the major players in our story. the first one to look at is a woman by the name of mary surratt. who was born either in 1823, she was relatively early in her life, she converted to become a catholic and became very devout catholic, which played a role in her later problems. goes there was huge anti-catholicism sentiment in the country. she got married to a man by the name of john surratt when she was either 17 or 20 years old in 1840. it was in a stream late tumultuous marriage, he drank heavily, he was pretty violent he failed to pay his debts, had a violent temper, despite that somehow they were still able to produce three children. only two of whom are important to our story. the first is their daughter, elizabeth, whom everyone called anna, and so i will call her hannah for the rest of this talk. and a sun, john junior. in 1853, john senior was able to obtain a piece of land in a suburb of washington that today is still called surratt smelled. -- surrattville.that there is a surratt high school, i find it bizarre. that there is traffic onslaught highway, i find a bizarre. the places are named for the people involved in the assassination of lincoln. john senior built a tavern on his land, and that was one of the sources of their income. the tavern still stands, and if you go on the two are -- tour, one of the first stops is the tavern. it's a place where booth stored weapons and binoculars, place where mary surratt went on the day of the assassination. john surratt also bought a townhouse, the address of the time was 541 8th street, it's now 604. they change the numbers. it's still the same house. after his death, the house, mary surratt use it as a boarding house and it became the main source of her income. she was very much a racist, they owned slaves, they had to sell their slaves in order to pay off their debts. both the tavern and the boarding house were used by confederates as places to house spies as places where they could stay and rest for a while. and leave as drop-off points. their sun, john junior, who is one of the more fascinating characters of many fascinating characters we will meet, went to college at central's college in maryland. -- saint charles college in maryland. when the civil war began, he was 17 years old and he decided it would be more exciting to be -- to join the confederate secret service and be a spy and go to class. he probably would've done the same if he had been in one of my classes. now it's time to talk about some of the folks who rented rooms from mrs. iraq. one of them who did was a man by the name of george at saratov. he was born in germany moved to the united states when he was eight years old. in 1843, even though he came as a child, he spent the rest of his life speaking with a heavy german accent. he ran a carriage repair shop, the equivalent of an auto repair dealership. in a town in maryland coal port tobacco. people called him for tobacco. -- port tobacco. he was introduced to john wilkes booth five surratt junior. he stated -- he stayed at the boarding house until he was thrown out for being drunk. they did not like each other this will come back, again we talk about this a little later on. even after he was kicked out of living at the boarding house she had seven rooms and as many as 10 and 12 borders in the seven rooms. george would show up for the meetings in the parlor. this again becomes quite significant. another person who stayed at the boarding house was lewis powell. it was powell was born in alabama in 1844. he lied about his age when the civil war began in 1861. he said he was 19 years old, he was 17 years old in order that he could enlist in the confederate army. he was a very big, very strong human being. some people question whether he was very bright, but that is a different matter. he certainly was an enormous character. probably about 6'3". he kept effecting from the confederate army and then reenlisting when he felt like it. he made his way to baltimore in january of 1855, where he met john surratt junior. who in turn introduced him to john wilkes booth. and later on, as this conspiracy group became more coherence powell became the number three. booth was number one, surratt junior was number two. powell was number three. he moved into this rod boarding house and stayed there most of the time until the events of april. the next person that we will meet is david herold. david herold group in washington, didn't need to stay in this rod boarding house, but did spend some nights there. he was a student at georgetown no he was not my student at georgetown. for very obvious reasons. he studied pharmacy, and i teach history. [laughter] prof. nurnberger: the fact that he died in 1865 was probably contributing factor him napping my student. at 18 years old and 1860, he's received a pharmacies are to forget and then took jobs working for physicians and a drug stores for clerks. he became acquainted with john surratt while he was attending classes at charlotte hall military academy in the late 1850's. in december of 1864 sirota junior introduced him to john wilkes booth. the next person is someone who may or may not come in all likelihood may not have been one of the conspirators. but there are some historians who believe he was. i don't think so. and that is a man by the name of lewis why shouldn't. -- lewis why shouldn't. wightman. at the behest of his mother, he agreed to study to become a roman catholic priest. he was admitted to the seminary at st. charles college in maryland. there he met and befriended a fellow student i the name of john surratt junior. you can see this is sirota junior, he is quite key to the story. as a result of his early friendship with sirota junior when the civil war broke out they parted ways. sirota -- john surratt junior became a career for the confederacy, and he took a job in today's equivalent of the dod. he moved into this to rot -- the su boarding house. rrat. he would become a witness for the prosecution later on. other friends of both who did not stay the boarding house but showed up to the meetings in the parlor -- michaela, a lifelong friend of booth. he joined the confederate army but was discharged in 1862. he agreed to participate in the first kidnap plots, the plot to kidnap lincoln and trade him for soldiers. the plot didn't go anywhere, and he quits. when he heard about the lincoln assassination, and found out who was involved, he turned himself in. even though he had nothing to do with the assassination, he wound up being one of the eight targets who was tried for the assassination. he thought he was going to just be turning himself in to give testimony, the next and he knows he is being tried for murder. and ultimately winds up getting a life sentence. the next person again did not state the boarding house as far as i know, but showed up to the meetings in the parlor, samuel arnold. he dropped out of the conspiracy after the kidnap plot was dropped. so basically, booth relies on john surratt junior, lewis powell, and others. ultimately eight people are tried for the myrtle or -- murder of lincoln. four and up being hanged. as for john surratt, and i would tell you now. but it's one of those where you are going to say you are making it up. that brings us, of course, to the key figure in our story john wilkes booth. john wilkes booth was born in bel air, maryland, in 1838. his parents were the leading shakespearean actors in england, man by the name of junius booth. his mistress, marianne holmes. junius had a different family in england, he came to the united states with his mistress. they came in 1821, they were well-off, they bought a 150 acre farm where john wilkes was born and grew up. his father later built in the state on it, which was called tudor hall, which is still there. the family used it as a summer residence while maintaining a winter residence in baltimore. you can tell these are not poor folks. john was named after a british politician by the name of john wilkes, who is one of my favorite characters in all of history. when i was getting my masters i had a paper from richard hofstetter asked if you could meet any one character and history, who would you like to meet and i said john wilkes. different topic, fascinating guy. wilkes college is named after him. junior's booth, a chronic alcoholic. he constantly was on the road wasn't around very much. wilkes himself suffered from a we would call learning disabilities. he had difficulties learning to read and write. as a child, he was noted mainly for torturing and killing cats. his long-suffering mother doted on him, and felt that her handsome little boy could do no wrong. this gave wilkes the belief that all women thought of him in the same way. and he had tremendous charismatic appeal to women which again, we will talk about a little bit. as an actor, he was certainly not as good an actor as his brothers. were his father. but he was a notorious scene stealer. he would jump around the stage wave weapons, he would scream and yell. he would do gymnastics. in one review, the new york times calls him the handsomest man in america. he stood 5'9" inches, jet black hair, lean and athletic. his stage performances were characterized by acrobatics. he frequently came to believe his roles were real. and sometimes he would have duels with characters in plays and that he would try and kill them. this is not a good thing with your fellow actors. in fact, some of his fellow actors would leave performances bloodied i booth because of their encounters. walt whitman wrote of him, he has flashes of true genius, he may be the finest actor in america. he was certainly a major figure in the american theater. as the 1850's were drawing to a close, he was becoming wealthy as an actor. his annual salary was in excess of $20,000 a year. which translated into today's money is well in excess of half $1 million. he wasted a lot of money, he lived farm of his means. he got very upset because he got involved in a very bad oil speculation and lost a ton of money. but more than that, he was outspoken in his racism. his dislike of african-americans. in his support for slavery. his support for the south. despite that, despite his political views, he kept getting very good job offers. and very good roles. he played romeo and juliet richard the third in new york city and he, again -- to give you an idea of the man's ego, here is his business card. his e-mail address, and phone number on the back. he didn't even put his name down. he was so well known. in 1863, family friend of his by the name of john ford opened a new theater in washington on 10th street. now called ford's theatre, then calls for a year as well. -- then called ford's theater as well. lincoln in particular enjoyed watching booth performed. in fact, he went and watched booth and number of times, on november 9 1863, booth performed to play called the marble heart at ford's theater. and lincoln sat in the same area where he was ultimately killed, in the same seat where he was ultimately killed, and watched booth performed. and was so moved to send booth a note saying would you please come to the white house, i would like to meet you. and booth said absolutely not. i would rather have the applause of a nigger then to me that president. on another occasion, lincoln took his sun tad to perform it. booth was so excited to meet the president's 11-year-old son in he gave him arose. lincoln asked him to meet and booth said no. less than five months before the assassination, the number 25 1864, booth appeared for the only time with his two brothers. edwin, who was probably the greatest shakespearean actor in the united states in the 19th century, and his other brother junius. it was a single engagement of julius caesar, performed at the winter garden theatre in new york. wilkes played with anthony edwin played brutus. the new york times referred to as the greatest theatrical event in new york history. the proceeds for this performance went to charity, to purchase a statue to be built in honor of william shakespeare which to this day still stands in central park. my favorite character in the whole story. lucy. february 1865, wilkes meets the daughter of abraham for senator and they become engaged. i doubt that the senator would have been happy with his son-in-law. he was abolitionist, he felt strongly that african-americans deserve rights and here is this racist proslavery actor. so they didn't tell anyone that they were engaged. she is intriguing. before dating booth, she dated all over wendell holmes junior, and robert todd lincoln. busey on say dated lincoln sun -- i don't make this -- booths fiancé dated lincoln's son. how to why for is this -- she had a freethinking outlook on life. she didn't mind that booth had other mistresses, and she had other friends. they would frequently get together for tryst at a hotel in baltimore where they would sign in as jw booth and lady. if we had more time, or you have questions, we can go into some of those interesting experiences. she had an interesting day on april 14, the day of the assassination. she had breakfast with john wilkes booth that morning at the national hotel which is where he lived. the national hotel is today where the museum is. and later that evening she had dinner with booth, and during the day she went to the white house, because her father have been named ambassador to spain and she decided to study spanish with robert todd lincoln, and john hay, lincoln's special assistance. remember the names because they will appear in our discussions of garfield and mckinley. john wilkes booth, here he is age 26. he made his final acting appearance at ford's theater in march, 1865, less than a month before lincoln's assassination. he is totally different than the other three assassins we will discuss in this series. they were basically socially inept, poor friendless loners who failed at everything until they shot a president. booth was prominent family handsome, wealthy, extremely successful in his dealings with women, in fact, when his body is found, when he was killed, yeah the photos of five women in his pocket. lucy lambert hale which is one of them. he is sort of george clooney tom cruise, and ben affleck rolled into one. again, he hated the abolitionists. so much so that he traveled in 1859 to watch john brown being hanged. and then he changed his story. he had difficulty with reality. he joined a bunch of southern richmond guards to go to the hanging of john brown, and then later on he said he had a role in the hanging, which he didn't. and over exalted ego, a sense of self. he quarreled frequently with his family about the south and secession and slavery. edwin, the older brother, once threw him out of his house and said i never want to see you or speech you again. when booth made disparaging remarks about african-americans. he possibly come in all likelihood probably was a confederate spy and career. -- courior. he made a journey to montréal where he stayed for 10 days. montréal was where a lot of confederate operatives were hanging out. he certainly met with them, but we don't quite know exactly what happened. booth -- or markable story. attended lincoln's second inaugural address. on march 4, 1865. he was invited, and he got a ticket because his fiancée was the daughter of a senator. so lucy lambert hale gave him a ticket. you can see, here's lincoln and booth. it is harder to see on this picture. that's why i colored it in the other way. lincoln is standing up there the second inaugural address together with the gettysburg address is probably the most famous speech lincoln gives. it's on the lincoln memorial, which i assume all of you have been to. with malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right that god gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation's wounds to care for him who have borne the battle, his widow and his orphan, to do all which we may to achieve and sheriff -- chairs a lasting peace -- cherish a lasting peace. booth writes in his diary what an excellent chance i had if i wished to kill the president. totally different views. there are some historians come out i don't know if this is true, who said that booth or lincoln passed directly next to booth on his way to the podium. and that a policeman blocked booth from doing anything. i don't know if that is true but certainly he was within 40 or 50 feet of him. at this time, he was still committed to the kidnapped lots. but the confederacy was falling apart. on april 3, richmond fell. on april 4, lincoln goes to richmond at the invitation of general grant and said that jefferson davis is task in richmond. on april 9, robert e lee surrenders in appomattox courthouse. robert todd lincoln was present at the surrender. on april 11, lincoln gives what turns out to be his last speech. he stands in the balcony of the white house and says that he wants the southern states to be readmitted into the union african-americans to be part of american life, to improve, to give them suffrage, to improve the quality of their educations they will be equal american citizens. booth is standing directly below the balcony at the time and turns to lewis powell and says that's the last speech he's ever going to give. that means nigger citizenship. by god, i will put him through. we will never hear from him again. it's hard to tell if that's accurate, but it is certainly something he felt that it shows up in a lot of books on the assassination. lincoln began to have provisions of his own death. three days before his assassination he told is very close friend, ward hill lemmond that he had a dream that he walked through the white house and when he was walking to the white house he saw a coffin and he asked a policeman what is this coffin for and the policeman said the president has been shot. killed by an assassin. after the assassination, lincoln said his dream was prophetic, i was upset when he told me about it. here again we find john wilkes booth. time to talk about how lincoln and booth spent the last day. april 14. on that day, booth wrote in his diary -- our cause being almost lost, something decisive and great must be done. he begins by having breakfast with lucy, and then at about noon, he wanders over to force theater to pick up his mail. because that's where his mail was delivered. and john ford tells them something very exciting. the president has changed his plans. he was originally planning to go to another theater, grover theater to see a play called aladdin, because tad wanted to see a play about aladdin and the magic lamp. but mrs. lincoln wanted to see our american cousin, and so tend to 15 minutes -- 10 to 15 minutes before boosters and to pick up his mail, one of lincoln's aides went to buy tickets. had the aid showed up 10 minutes later, had booth come before had he not -- who knows. it was at that moment that booth decides i can kill lincoln here. it was literally at noon on the day of the assassination. booth, after he gets this piece of information, goes into ford's theater. remember, he acts their, they know him. he goes with the president is likely to set and carves a small peephole in the door so we can look in from outside and get a wooden block, which he ultimately puts into the door to prevent the door, which brings in word, from opening. so that once he is in, he blocks it for other people. he then walks five blocks over to wok n roll restaurant to have lunch -- mary surratt's boardinghouse. she says she would -- he says he would like her to deliver a package, and goes on a ride to the tavern accompanied by a border and friend of john surratt who ultimately turned states evidence. this trip does not help her in her defense. he then goes at 6:00 and meets at the herndon hotel with his band of conspirators. he tells them tonight is the night. i'm going to kill lincoln. it was colin, you are going to kill secretary of state william seward. sirotka -- john surratt, you're going to kill someone else. you are going to help powell you're going to be his guide to taking the seward's house and then after he kill seward, to get him out so that he can all means. at this point, the lead role in the drama goes to booth himself. at this point booth tells them you are stuck, you're going to kill the vice president. lee had surrendered five days earlier, and lincoln was in the best movie had been since the civil war. he do we was going to have a tough time pushing his plans for reconstruction, but he figured he had time to do it. he would convince the congress to accept the southern states that, to try and help the status of african-americans, and also be able to relax. friends said they had never seen him so happy. it was a lovely spring day on april 14. the dogwood trees were in bloom the scent of fresh flowers were in the air. the willows along the potomac were green, the parks and gardens were starting to bloom. there were no cherry trees yet. they did not come until the test administration. we didn't have to root for the beaver to get rid of them. for those of you don't like the traffic anyways. before traffic, the 56-year-old -- before breakfast, the 56-year-old president worked for a while. he called for a cabinet meeting to begin at 11:00. at 8:00 he was joined by his sons. robert, as i mentioned, was that appomattox courthouse and lincoln wanted to hear more about the surrender. mary told them they all had tickets to go to the theater to see aladdin and the wonderful lamp. but that she preferred to see our american cousin's. lincoln said ok, let's see if we can get tickets. amazing, the president said let's see if we can get tickets. at 9:00, he began a series of meetings with numbers of congress. the first was color colfax who ends up becoming vice president under ulysses grant. he and colfax have a heated conversation. he tells colfax is time for the war to be over, and that it is time for revenge. lincoln says let's put the war behind us and for the country back on a good footing. the next person he meets with remarkably as a senator from new hampshire by the name of john hale. yes, the father of booth's fiancé. who comes to talk about his soon coming appointment to be ambassador to spain. at 11:00, he calls for a cabinet meeting. at the same time, the secretary of war, a key figure in the story is meeting at the war department. he is meeting with ulysses grant. he is talking about how you get the soldiers out of uniform and back into civilian life? how many soldiers do we still need? what is post-civil war lifelike? grant then tells stanton that lincoln invited him to go to the theater that night, and that he doesn't want to go. his wife despises mrs. lincoln he says i can't stand the thought of those two women being together for an evening. julia won't come, and stanton tells them come up with an excuse grant says i'm visiting my kids, they live in new jersey. he says get on the training get out. they then all go back to the cabinet meeting. grant joins the cabinet meeting i believe is the only lincoln cabinet meeting the grant was there. they discuss how the civil war have ended and what is going to happen next. lincoln that it might stand to go to the theater, and stances he is too busy. again, this is remarkable. lincoln then winds up having lunch with mary, and tells them the grants won't comment. lincoln and mary send out invitations to a number of other couples, inviting them to go to the theater. all turned them down. remarkable when you think about the president of the united states inviting you to come to the theater within that night and i'm too busy? it's remarkable. they then go on a carriage ride through town. they just want to see the flowers and trees in washington. lincoln tells mary that now the war is over and he looks forward to traveling. he particularly wants to see california and he wants to go to jerusalem. he really wanted to go to the holy land. obviously, he never makes it. the first u.s. president to make it to jerusalem was ulysses grant. after he was president. the first american president to make it to jerusalem as president was richard nixon. finally, mary gets an ok. she found someone who will go to the theater with them. a young couple by the name of henry rathbone and his fiancée clara harris. clara harris is the daughter new york senator ira harris. they live across the street from the white house come across the street from lafayette plaza, and the decatur house today. mary likes them, and so she was very happy. besides, they were the old ones willing to go. again, it is remarkable. lincoln personally asked the name -- a man by the name of thomas eckert, and a norm as worked in the telegraph office who had frugally served as lincoln's bodyguard to come, and he said he couldn't make it. he was too busy. had eckert been there that night, it's possible booth would not have been able to get in. so who was there guarding lincoln? a policeman -- and again this was odd. most of the time lincoln was guarded by soldiers. this time he was guarded by a policeman. the washington, d.c. cop by the name of john f parker. during his time as a policeman he is been charged with dereliction of duty, conger -- conduct unbecoming an officer. he was arrested for being drunk on duty, sleeping on streetcars at work, and visiting a profit while in duty -- a brothel while on duty. his excuse was that the matter had sent for him. he was reprimanded but never fired, and that is the man selected to guard lincoln. again, conspiracy theorists point to john parker and say who knew in advance that it would be this guy and why was he ultimately never punished? parker becomes a key figure for conspiracy theorists to look at. ford's theatre in 1865 obviously looks pretty similar today now they have reconstructed it. the lincoln party arrived late in the theater, the play had already started. when they came in to see the theater, and the performance everybody stood up and started to applaud. they played heels of the chief there were 1700 people in the theater that night. 1500 seats, and they added 200 additional shares. ring intermission, the guard left his post. he was sitting outside of lincoln's box and went to a tavern where he drank with lincoln's footman and coachman. he certainly was not had his post when bush was trying to get in, but even if he had been, it's very possible that someone is famous as john wilkes booth coming in, this idiot cop might have let him go through anyways. booth arrives at the theater at 10:00 at night. he walks slowly down the aisle on the right. witnesses see him come identify him, he bumps into an almost knocks off a guy who was sitting in a chair in the aisle that they added the extra chairs. the guy turns to the fellow next to him and says that's john wilkes booth. he was very well known. he enters the door to the right climbs up the stairs leading to the presidential box. when he gets in, he barricades himself, taking the wood bar he put blocking the door so they could no longer open. and looks through the peephole. he can see sitting in the box, the four people who were there. although he had never played in this production of our american cousin, he knew it pretty well by heart. he knew there was a line which was going to be recited by one actor, a man by the name of harry hawk. it would be in the center of the stage. for the funniest line in the show, people would laugh loudly which would muffle the sound of the gun. hysterical laughter comes in booth comes in using this gun, a one-shot derringer. you either do it or you don't. this gun is now on display four blocks from here. he is behind lincoln, shoot them in the back behind the left ear. mary todd lincoln is sitting here, rathbone and clara harris and there's the rest of the stage down below. lincoln immediately loses consciousness upon being hit by the gun, never knows what hit them. never regains consciousness. he slumps over, mary realizes what is happening and begin screaming hysterically. major rathbone jumps up and tries to stop booth, booth has a knife, slashes at rathbone. violently cutting his left forearm, into the bone, including cutting part of the bone and cutting part of the chest. rathbone then tries to grab it again, boost then false over -- remember he is this acrobatic actor. vaults over from here from the box, jumps down onto the stage. rathbone believes that he heard booth yell something like freedom. who feels -- booth runs out on the stage, he's the only one on the stage. there's a lot of question about what he said. people think you said six average around us -- sic semper tyrannus. some people thought he said revenge for the south of the south shall be free, some thought they said he yelled i have done it. in any case, pandemonium comes out. booth rushes out across the stage. the orchestra leader tries to stop him, man by the name of william withers. he slashes at him with his knife trade behind ford's theatre, he asked the stagehand named edmund spangler to hold discourse -- hold his horse. booth then takes the knife and smashes burrows in the head with the back of the knife. and rides off. into the night. a young army physician by the name of charles neil was at the theater that night. he tries to go upstairs and can't open the door. he starts screaming, rathbone sees what is happening in kicks open bar. neil is able to enter into the presidential box. the first thing he sees as rathbone with blood spurting all over him from the arm and his chest. he ignores rathbone looks of the president. the president is paralyzed, he is barely breathing. and a second doctor by the name of charles taft is lifted up from the stage up to the presidential box. we suddenly have two doctors in the president's box. they open up the president's shirt, they rip open his collar and they start feeling around. they first thought he was stabbed in the back, but then they find the wound to the back of the head. neil sticks his finger in to see if they can find the bullet. what that does is relieve the clock and helps lincoln to breathe easier. the lead actress of the play comes up and they put lincoln's head on her lap. and that is how lincoln's blood once up there. neil then issues the statement his wound is mortal, is impossible for him to recover. at this point, another doctor by the name of albert king is raised up to the box. the three doctors and merely decide the president cannot stay here on the floor of this box. we need to get him out of here. they also realize they can't take into the white house, even though it's six blocks, the carriage what would kill him -- the carriage ride would kill him. they carry him downstairs, by now it is pouring rain. they hear a voice from across the street, bring him here bring him here. if the name -- a man at a border owned by mr. peterson. the houses there today, you can easily walk across the street and see the petersen house. they carry him in a put him on a first-floor bedroom. the bed is too small lincoln's 6'4", they have to lean across annually. another one of those i'm not making this up -- i should have brought the teacher that my students gave me. guess you slept in that bed less than a month before? john wilkes booth. john wilkes booth with that ford's theatre, he was tired. another actor was renting the room where lincoln ultimately died. booth said i am not feeling well, i'm tired. booth goes and takes a nap in the bed where lincoln ultimately dies. the vigil begins immediately. obviously, on the night of april 14, april 65 -- 1855, it's a friday. robert todd lincoln is brought to petersen house, ted lincoln --tadd lincoln is at the theater, and an announcement is made that they had shot the president. he later comes up with the equivalent of john john doing the salute to kennedy. he issues a statement and cries out they have killed pop a dead. it's not just that killed his pop up, -- poppa they killed the poppa of the country. the secretary of the navy basically takes over the country and begins try to figure out who did it, how do we do this? mrs. lincoln at this point is completely hysterical. as you can imagine. she was sitting next to her husband when suddenly he had his brains blown out. she wasn't the stable list person to start with anyways. stanton is so upset her behavior he yells out take that woman out of here and don't let her back in here again. she is removed from the room where he dies until after she passes away -- after he passes away. the doctor sits next to lincoln for the rest of the night, holding his hand saying you never know whether he regains any consciousness, if he does come i wanted him to know he had a friend here. lincoln dison; 22 the next morning. -- lincoln dies at 7:22 the next morning. we will meet the man who was at the bedside of lincoln when he dies, as will robert todd lincoln. according to hey, lincoln had a look of unspeakable piece on his warm features. -- waor features. n historians differ with the next words were. it's either angels ranges. -- angels for ages. we are going to talk a lot next week about the medical treatment of president garfield, the medical treatment of lincoln was as good as could have been. that wound was fatal, the doctors did everything they could. they handled it as well as could have been done. the events at ford's theater were not only the only gruesome events of the night. william seward was secretary of state, and lewis powell was assigned to murder him. william seward was a major political figure of his time. he served as governor of new york, and as senator of new york he thought he was going to be the republican nominee for president in 1860. he was very surprised when lincoln got instead of him. in the book "team of rivals," she talks about how lincoln took the top figures who were his rivals and took them into his cabinet. seward was the dominant figure in the republican party, became secretary of state, and he ultimately winds up serving as secretary of state for eight years. lincoln successor kept him in that post. on april 5, nine days before the events of april 14, seward was thrown from his carriage. he suffered a concussion, a broken jaw in two places, and a broken right arm. doctors improvised a jaw splint to try and help his jog it back into place. many historians and people don't know the subject well say he had a neck brace. he did not have a neck brace, he had a jaw splint. on the night of the assassination, he was in bed in his house. his house was across the street from the white house their lafayette plaza. booth had assigned lewis powell to kill him. powell was one of the borders. he was enormously big, enormously strong. powell went to the seward house seward -- booth wanted all the murder should take place at 10:00 at night so they would be a all at the same time. because he was fearful of one happened and then that was elapsed, others -- there would be additional security. seward's butler answered the door. powell says i have medicine for the secretary, i know he was an accident, his doctor gave me the medicine. the butler says the doctor was just here, we don't need additional medicine, please connect tomorrow. i will then smashes at him, knocks him over, and starts running up the stairs. at this point, seward's sun frederick seward, assistant secretary of state -- adjusting the enough, that was easy for secretary to appoint his sun to be assistant secretary, stopped him and says what are you i am bringing medicine. his son says the doctor was just here. we do not need medicine. please leave. powell takes a gun out and points it at the young man and poster. it misfires. he turns the gun around and cracks him in the head. it knocks two or three blows into the skull, breaking it apart. at this point he then starts stabbing at him with a knife and the daughter rushes out, andy seward -- annie seward, what is going on. this tells stewart where the better miss. fanny tries to block him. he begins stabbing at secretary of state seward. the third blow slices open his cheek. the fourth blow, the only thing that prevented him from cutting the jugular was the jaw splint. seward's other son augustus, and a soldier assigned to help them, by the name of sergeant george robertson, start attacking and beating on powell who starts smashing at them with a knife. he realizes this is enough and runs out of the building. david harold runs out of the building with two horses. he hears the screaming and yelling, panics, and takes off. leaving powell's horse, and he does not know the city alone outside. powell comes outside the house and there is a messenger with the secretary of state. powell says i am a messenger. he stabs a man and winds up in the back, -- he stabs the man in the back, leaving the man permanently paralyzed. he yells i'm mad. he jumps on a horse and rides up with nowhere to go. fannie seward yells pap's dead. seward spits blood out and says, i am not dead. call for a doctor. call for the police. close the house. seward never allowed photos of himself to take front forward. that was what he looked like. i will get rid of. vice presidents did not have homes like they do now. the vice president at the time was andrew johnson. andrew johnson had not been not been lincoln's running mate. hannibal hamlin was a wonderful vice president. he and lincoln got along well. he was supportive of emancipation. he was supportive of the civil war. he was a bright lawyer. he wanted to be vice president again. lincoln thought he was going to be defeated for reelection in 1864 and had sherman not marched to the sea and grant had successes, lincoln might have been defeated by george mcclellan. he was advised to take someone from the border states to be vice president. he did not know andrew johnson. they did not get along. johnson on inauguration day -- in those days, vice presidents issued their inaugural address before the president -- johnson either was drunk or was taking medicine for a cold or flu which was his excuse. most historians think he was drunk. i can't tell you whether it was medicine or alcohol. whatever it was, he babbled through his inaugural address which was a disgrace, and lincoln said i never want anything more to do with him. he never saw him again until april 14, 1865. johnson came to see lincoln and said he wanted lincoln to be tougher towards the south and not be as friendly towards african-americans. in johnson's words, i went to induce lincoln not to be lenient with traitors. johnson was staying at the kirkwood hotel and a strange thing happened. a visitor showed up. john wilkes booth. he left a message with the desk clerk for johnson, saying i do not wish to disturb you. historians to this day do not know what that was about. did he think atzedrot would not do it? did he want people to think that johnson was involved? are to know. on april 14, atzedrot rents a room at the kirkwood hotel. he has a gun and a knife with him. he goes into the room, goes down to the bar, and gets rip-s norting drunk. he checks into another hotel and goes to sleep. he makes no effort to see or do anything with the vice president. half an hour after the assassination, booth is fleeing across the navy yard bridge and he is stopped by a sergeant silas cobb, who says, where are you going? no civilians are allowed to cross. booth says i need to go home. the sergeant says in that case, though. -- go. he crosses the river. another rider crosses the bridge. the soldier says i will let you cross on one condition. you can't come back. harold says deal and takes off. they meet at the tavern in surratsville where they pick up the guns of binoculars. booth is in tremendous pain. he broke his leg. there are different stories about how he broke his leg. booth tells us different story. many people think he broke his leg when he landed poorly after jumping from the presidential box. most historians do not think that is it. most historians think he had a horse accident as he ran off that stage too easily if he had a broken leg. he needed a doctor and he decides to go to a doctor by the name of samuel a. mudd. dr. mudd. for those of you who know the expression, his name is mud comes from this gentleman. he lived in randy town maryland, about 20 -- he lived in brandy town, maryland. booth tells him he had a horse accident. he will not tell them, by the way, i just killed the president. telling mudd he had a horse accident may be true or not. there's no way for mudd to know what happened. even if he had been watching cnn, they were covering a malaysian airliner that disappeared and were not focusing on this event. there was no television or radio. mudd couldn't have known. the question is, who is dr. mudd? dr. mudd was a physician, to supplement his medical practice, at a small tobacco farm and he owns five slaves. when lincoln emancipated the slaves in the area controlled by the union, mudd's slaves left and mudd developed an increased hatred for lincoln. he was trying to figure out to do in 1864 when he met a man by the name john wilkes booth. they met in november of 1864 because mudd was thinking of selling his tobacco farm and booth claimed he was looking to buy real estate. they met a number of time mudd had booth stay at his home. booth may have been there to become family with the region. hard to know. they met in november of 1864. they met again on december 23, 1865. when mudd went to washington dc to do christmas shopping. it is nice to tell these stories because we know the neighborhoods. it was a block away from the surratt boardinghouse. he was walking down the street with mudd. who do they bump into? john surratt junior. booth invites them to his hotel room at the national hotel where booth treats them to wine brandy, and cigars. then gets into a heated discussion with mudd and surratt and after that with surratt alone. booth, after his meeting with surratt, shows up at the surratt boarding house a number of times where surratt's daughter falls in love with booth. she is 22, he is 25, 26 at the time, the handsomest man in america. it is like ben affleck and george clooney showing up. you're 22-year-old daughter says well. booth gives her a gift. she was enthralled. he gives her his picture. she does not want mom to know so she hides behind another picture on the wall. this is not going to be a good thing. did mudd know about the assassination? did he know about the kidnap plot? unknown. surratt, who is not a good source said mudd knew. it is hard to know. booth shows up at mudd's house at 4:00 in the morning and says i have a broken leg. mudd sets the leg and creates a cast, a plaster cast for him. the next day, a carpenter to make crutches for him. booth pays mudd $25 and booth and harold spend the night at mudd's house. on the day after the assassination, april 15, mud goes to brian town to run errands where he hears about the assassination. accounts differ about what happened next. mudd comes home in either booth or harold are gone or about to leave or he tells them to leave. he does not tell the soldiers looking for booth that booth was there. he waits another day, giving booth and extra day. he does not tell them directly. he has his cousin, dr. george mudd, tell the police. the police come back to interview mud a couple of days later and ask him, had you ever seen booth before. they say no. they show him my photo. he says i have never seen this man before. all of a sudden it turns out that this is -- that mrs. mudd shows up with booth's boot which has engraved in it j. wilkes. he was obviously there. he said he was wearing a beard. ruth, as an actor, -- booth, as an actor, had disguises. later on, it is said that booth met mudd on december 23, which mudd covered up. mudd wasmudd guilty or innocent -- was mudd guilty or innocent? i don't know. if you go to the mudd house which is a museum, they will give you a view that he was innocent of anything other than trying to help a man with a broken leg. others feel he had a bigger role. booth was able to escape for 12 days with the entire union army looking for him. the search was headed by stanton and his assistant, lafayette baker. he is a key figure in our story. lafayette baker was in charge of the union intelligence service during the civil war after he took over that job from allan pinkerton. he ultimately receives a generous portion of the $100,000 reward for booth, but he felt he should have gotten more and that becomes an issue. we will come back to it. most immediately they are able to put together the first wanted poster in american history using photographs and they call for the capture of booth, surratt jr., and david harold. booth and herold go through the swanson maryland. they crossed the potomac into virginia. if you are interested in this, you cannot get a better feel for it. james swanton's book "manhunt" is brilliant. read it if you do not have time to spend a full day during the smithsonian trip. during his 12 days on the run booth kept a diary. the diary is quintessential booth, defensive egotistic, grossly inflated. he rails against newspaper accounts that called him a coward. he could not understand how the papers called him the most deplorable calamity that has ever fallen upon the people of united says, the murder by the scour. he did not -- by this coward. he did not understand stepping up behind a man and shooting him is the act of a coward. the diary is also on display five blocks from here. let me read some paragraphs. with every man's hand against me, i'm here and despair, and why? for doing what brutus was honored for. yet i come up for striking down a greater tyrant than they ever knew, are looked upon as a common cutthroat. my action was purer than theirs. i knew no private wrong. i struck with my country -- for my country and that alone. i cannot see any wrong serving a generous people. the little i left behind to clear my name the government will not allow to be printed. tonight i will once again try to cross the river. i have a greater desire and almost a mind to return to washington and clear my name, which i know i can do. i do not repent the blow i struck. i kneel before god, not before man. two lines jump out at me. number one, the little i left behind to clear my name the government will not allow to be printed. he can clear his name by something he writes? number two. i have a greater desire and almost a mind to return to washington and in a measure to clear my name, which i feel i can do. wow. think about that for a second. did he think he could go back to washington, the great actor he was, and in his theatrical manner, have the country listen to him, give the greatest performance of his life, and get applause? did he think he would be declared a euro for this? or did he think you would go back to washington and give the names of the higher-ups who put him up to this and get himself off? this is the line that conspiracy terrorists look at -- conspiracy theorists look at and say wow. the diary was picked up from booth's body, taken by the soldiers, and give it to lafayette baker, who gave it to edwin stanton, and then it disappeared. the diary was not talked about in evidence at any of the trials. it did not show up again until 1867 when lafayette baker wrote eight history of the united states secret service and talked about the diary. everyone said, what diary? baker said i give it to stanton. suddenly the diary shows up. they said, look what we found. suddenly there are 18 pages missing. it is like rosemary woods. why 18 minutes? what happened to these pages? did stanton or someone in the war department rip them out because they may have had the names of people behind booth? or did booth rip them out because he needed paper for something else? or were the 18 pages not in the diary when booth used this booklet as a diary because he ripped them out long before the assassination? we don't know. lafayette baker, who was the one who got the diary, gave it to stanton, and then said the diary was complete when he give to stanton suddenly dies. all of a sudden drops dead from meningitis. rumors that he was killed by people in the war department. 1977, a chemistry professor at indiana state by the name of raymond neff announced that he had tested hair and that baker was killed by a arsenic poisoning. i don't know. conspiracy theorists wonder what this was about. they are riding through virginia. here is their escape route. if you right through, it is nicer doing it in a bus that it is the be -- it is being chased by the ewing army. here is the surratt house, the home of dr. mudd, and they go down here. the afternoon of april 24, booth and harold arrived at the home of richard garrett, a local tobacco farmer. here is his farmhouse. then standing. we have no picture of the barn. it burned down. booth says my name is john boyd. he is an actor. he came up with a fake name. he says, here's my brother. garrett lets them stay at the house. the next day garrett is beginning to wonder who are these people and says you cannot stay in the house. move into the barn. shortly after the troops show up and start yelling. they say, come out or we are going to burn the barn down. david herold panics and said i'm getting out. booth says you are a coward. herold says he wants out. the union army says put your hands up. herold is he -- is yanked out. booth says he will not be taken alive. the fire is set to the bar. despite strict orders not to shoot, a shot rings out. we are not 100% certain fire the shot. we are 99% sure. it is likely thomas corbett. if you think we have met bizarre characters in the story, we are now about to meet a bizarre character. he changed his name from thomas to boston. he decided his role model was jesus so he started to wear his hair long to imitate jesus. two years before the civil war in order to avoid temptation by prostitutes he cast rates himself with a pair of services -- para scissors. bizarre characters. he then ate a meal, went to prayer, and seek medical attention. corbett claimed he saw booth inside and shot him severing booth's spinal cord. corporate was immediately arrested for violating his orders, stanton sets them free, and he gets a portion of the reward. he gets $1654. he retires and moves to kansas. in 1877, because of his same as booth's killer, he gets a job as the assistant doorkeeper at the house of representatives in topeka, kansas. one day he hears the representatives mocking the opening prayer and he grabs a revolver, threatening to kill every member of the legislature. no one was hurt but he was sent to the topeka asylum for the insane. he built a log cabin and dice in a fire which he possibly sets himself. we have some weird characters. booth, after he is shot, taken out of the barn, a soldier pours water in his mouth and he spits out he says, i cannot solve this. he yells out, tell mother i die for my country. he dies two hours later. he asked soldiers to hold his arms above his head, because he cannot move them, and he yells useless, useless,. last words. less than six hours after the attack, the secretary of war stanton hones in on wok and roll restaurant. i'm sorry, they home in on the surratt house. they asked mrs. surratt if they knew where her son was. she said she had no idea where her son was. the detectives leave. they come back. they came back on the 17th and pound on the door. by the way after the detectives left on the 18th,weichmann claims he did not help mary surratt at all. this is not a good relationship he claims after the police left, he said -- she said to her daughter, come with wilkes, i am resigned. i think wilkes was a tool in the hand of the a mighty to punish these people. the cops begin questioning mrs. surratt. while there questioning her lewis powell shows up. lewis powell shows up and he knocks on the door and he says i don't know who this is. he says i am here to clean your gutters. i am here to dig a ditch around your house because i understand you are having water problems. she says, i have never seen him before and i did not hire him to dig a ditch. police are looking at him. he has blood on his close. -- on his clothing. they begin wondering around the house and bump into a photograph. it knocks off the wall, and guess what is behind it? the picture of booth at booth had given to anna. they then said, do you know this man powell? she said no. he had been living there. anna, in her testimony to help her mother, said her mother had poor eyesight and did not recognize powell. whatever. they are rested. anne surratt is arrested. they went to his hotel room and found a gun, a knife, and booth's bank book. we now have under arrest david harold anne surratt surratt jr, and mrs. surratt. probably the most interesting one is john surratt, jr. unclear where he was that night. some historians believe he was in washington. most believe he was an ill mira, new york. he flees to canada. he stays there a while in flees to liverpool england, when he finds refuge in a catholic church. he moves around europe for a while before he gets a job as a guard for the pope in the vatican. he is a guard. here he is in papal uniform. guarding the pope. a friend of his turns him in. he is arrested by u.s. consular officials in rome. he escapes and flees to egypt. one of the lincoln assassins was arrested in egypt in 1867. he is brought to trial but is cleared of murder charges by a hung jury and the statue of limitations for kidnapping is over and so he is released. conspiracy theorists believe he is released if you promises not to -- if he promises not to get the names of higher-ups. he spends the rest of his life giving lectures on the lincoln assassination. in 1872 he marries the nice -- the cousin of francis scott key. they wind up having seven children and they live happily ever after. he dies at age 72. the rest of the conspirators are not as fortunate. the war department and the army arrests dozens of people, but ultimately they wind up with only eight were tried for the murder. samuel arnold and michael locklin, who were part of the kidnap plot and was the first to join the kidnap plot, and george atzerodt, david harold, herold edward spangler, and mary surratt. they are tried by military tribunal. conspiracy theorists say they should have been tried in civil court, not military court. there is a nine-member military commission. the most interesting of these is the wallace, who ends up writing "ben hur." has nothing to do with this, just trivia. all of the prisoners with the exception of mrs. surratt and dr. mudd mudd -- dr. mudd have hoods over their head, which drives some of them to near-insanity. they obviously could not interview lee harvey oswald or john wilkes booth because they were dead. they try to interview everyone else. the trial lasted seven weeks. they interviewed 351 witnesses. the people in trial were hoping to uncover a larger conspiracy. they were hoping to prove the confederacy, particularly jefferson davis, was behind it. they were unable to do this. they were hoping to find that someone other than a deranged 26-year-old actor did this. when ultimately that did not work, just as after the kennedy assassination, worn commission -- the warren commission was commissioned. in 1867 the house of representatives convened a special assassination committee to see of the assassination trial had been correct, and came to the conclusion it had. when we discuss the kennedy assassination in three weeks, we will find it was the warren commission and in the house commission. same thing here. four people were sentenced to be hanged. mary surratt, george powell david harold, and -- david herold, and atzerodt. . dr. mudd escapes hanging. the hanging took place in the navy yard. i believe it was the first execution in the united states that was photographed. here they are actually hanging. it is a terribly hot day and mary surratt was allowed to have a priest and someone held an umbrella over her beforehand. mary surratt -- robert redford made a very interesting movie called the conspirator, which is worth watching again if you're interested, which portrays are quite fondly. it is hard to know. she owned the boarding house. people living in her house were involved. did she know? i think it's hard to say she did not know. she certainly was sympathetic to them. did she deserved to die? i don't know. it did not help that she was catholic. there was a of anti-catholic sentiment at the time. her former border lewis weichmann did her in. she is the one that -- he is the one that said mary surratt went with the weapons to the tavern on the day of the assassination. he was the one that said when she heard about the assassination, she holds her daughter -- she told her daughter it was a good thing. george atzerodt hated her. lewis powell like her. whatever that was worth. when the verdict came in that she should be executed, the military commission then said that they asked for clemency. president johnson said no. if you go pastwok and roll restaurant, there is a plaque outside that says johnson when he signed the death wornwarrant, it says she kept the nest that hatched the egg. that is an interesting quote. edward spangler, who held the horse and said he had nothing to do with this, was sentenced to six years. samuel mudd was sentenced to life in prison. they were sentenced to 14% in dry tortugas, -- to fort jefferson in dry tortugas. a yellow fever hit and the prison doctor died. mudd became the doctor and saved a number of lives. president johnson eventually set them all free. spangler died in 1875 of tuberculosis. arnold lived until 1906. mudd came back after he had been set free by president johnson dies at age 49 of pneumonia in january 1883. he is buried in st. mary's catholic church, which is exactly where he met booth originally. descendents of mudd have tried very hard to have very successive presidents and congress overturn his guilty verdict. president jimmy carter was sympathetic but said he had no power to do anything. ronald reagan said he came to believe santa mud was innocent but did not overturn the conviction. supreme court justices introduced -- two representatives introduced a bill to overturn the conviction. it did not pass. in 2003 it was heard by the supreme court, which said the statue of limitations has run out. it probably did. lincoln was the first president to be assassinated. the funeral procession. millions of people came to witness it in washington and on the train ride from new york to springfield, illinois. they paid their respects. most of you have been to the lincoln monument and you see this statue. you read the gettysburg address and the second inaugural. it was a loss to the nation. we also tend to forget is a loss to a family. this was a person who died. a man who left behind two sons. tad lincoln, fourth and youngest son of abraham. he got the name tad because lincoln said he was wiggly as a tadpole. he was impulsive and unrestrained. he dies at age 18 at 1871, throwing mary todd into a deeper depression. following the death of her son she becomes even more irrational. she tries to jump out of a building from a nonexistent fire , tries to commit suicide. she is committed to an insane asylum by robert todd in 1875 to his great embarrassment, because some people claimed he did that so he could gain control of her finances. i don't think that was the case, but many blamed him. she was finally released into the custody of her sister in 1886, declared incompetent to do with her own management. she again attempted suicide and then moved to france and wondered around france for four years. develop severe cataract problems, had difficulty seeing, suffered from dizziness, and had susceptibilities to falls. fell off a step ladder and suffered spinal cord injuries. in 1882, collapsed in her sister's home, fell into a coma, and died at age 63. remarkably young. robert todd lincoln, another 1 -- i am not making this up. in 1863 robert todd lincoln was on a train platform in new jersey. trip, fell, and was about to fall in front of a train. a hand reaches out and pulls him, saves his life. the hand was edwin booth, john wilkes's brother. the night of the funeral, he turned down an invitation to go to the theater he was at the vigil at the petersen house. he moved to chicago with his mother, studied law, became a lawyer, and had an interesting and good career. he was secretary of war under garfield and was standing next to garfield when garfield was shot. he then became u.s. ambassador to england and in 1901 at president mckinley's invitation, went to the buffalo expedition and was with mckinley when he was shot. he died at age 82. a few of the others and we will look at conspiracies. andrew johnson became president after lincoln died. he was the only president at that point to be impeached by the house for trying to remove edwin stanton as secretary of war. he runs for senate and is elected to center. he is the only president to be elected to senate after being president, which means he sat with the same people that try to impeach him. he dies in 1875. stanton practices law after his term is over. he is appointed to the supreme court by ulysses grant and dies four james later before he can become a -- four days later before he can become a justice. seward remains secretary of state and is responsible for the purchase of alaska. he dies and 871. harry wrath born in clara harris ultimately get married. he becomes mentally ill. he becomes the u.s. consul to hanover, germany. he shoots klara and stats are trying -- clara and stabs her trying to reenact the assassination of lincoln. i don't make this stuff up. he spends the rest of his life in an institution for the kernel is a. my favorite character in the story, -- for the criminally insane. my fear character is lucy hale. she copies her father to spain. she remains in europe for five years, where she has numerous flirtations and refuses many offers of marriage from many aristocrats. in 1870 she returns to the united states. in 1874 she marries a rich corporation lawyer by the name of william chandler. they have a son. her husband become secretary of the navy and in 1887 he becomes a u.s. senator. she immerses herself in his politics and becomes one of the leading hostesses in washington at social functions and ultimately dies at the age of 74 in 1915. let's look at some conspiracy there is wrote quickly. there is not much time. i will look at seven fast. conspiracy theories take hold because we find it so difficult that a man of the stature of abraham lincoln or john kennedy could be killed by this deranged human being. it makes no sense. jackie kennedy, as i will mention any couple of weeks said my husband cannot be a martyr if this is the man who killed him for no reason. so we look for a reason. first conspiracy theory that people look at is that booth escaped, which is the same as lee harvey oswald was a patsy. the real killer of kennedy escaped. since i believe that lee harvey oswald did it, i don't think the real killer escaped. who was the patsy? john boyd. john boyd went and died on behalf of john wilkes booth. the fact that booth said he was boyd. there were people who believe booth got away. the history channel did a series called decoded in which they said booth got away. a man by the name of david george showed up in texas in 1877, moves to enid, oklahoma, dies in 1903, and on his deathbed continues to say he was john wilkes booth. as a result, a friend modifies the body and the body travels around to sideshows. the last reported sighting of the body was 1976. when booth's body was brought back to washington, lucy hale's diving on the body and saying wilkes, wells, does not convince those who do not think he was not kill. judah p benjamin and benjamin davis. judah p benjamin left the united states, moved to england, and burned his papers. obviously he would not have burned his papers if he didn't have proof he killed lincoln. [laughter] ok. booth met with odd characters in montréal. they were confederate secret service. they put him up to it. the fact that the conspiracy trial and in the congressional investigation all try to prove that jefferson davis and judah p benjamin were behind it and could not probably believes you to -- probably leads you to believe they were not involved. andrew johnson. that he was behind the assassination so he could change lincoln's policies on reconstruction, deal tougher with the south and african-americans, and denied them their independence or real freedom. as proof, the letter that booth left the hotel, i do not wish to distribute, and the person who believed andrew johnson behind it was mary todd lincoln an odd character who wrote, as sure as you and i live, johnson had a hand in this. we all know this. congressional committee, this is at a time when johnson was being impeached, wanted to prove he was behind it and they could not find any linkage. conspiracy number four. international bankers who were upset that lincoln had been borrowing money at lower rates to funded the civil war and that they would be cut out of the funding for the reconstruction. the fact that there is no money linking booth, and this is something we will look at with the harvey oswald, does not stop people. there is a title of the rothschild plot to killington, showing it was international bankers in new york and london. again, i do not think this is the case. the roman catholic church was behind it. as proof of this, four priests instead simply -- priests of stents of glee four hours before the murder talk about the murder. because we did not have c-span coverage, we are not sure. anex-priest writes a book and says paul piatt ninth -- pope pius the ninth was behind it and that using catholics like mary and john surratt in finding refuge in the pope -- again, i do not find it likely. this brings me to last one and that is secretary of state stanton. i believed it. it came about in the 1930's when an austrian-born chemist otto schimmel, writes a book that called "why was lincoln murdered?" in 1977, a movie comes out called the lincoln conspiracy, which i saw and at the time i was totally convinced this is it. they issued a book. first question is motive. the answer is republicans want to control reconstruction and they are upset at lincoln's idea of letting them off easy. they do not want moderates in the cabinet, which is why they also had to kill seward. schimmel points out that grant did not show up in the theater. if he had, there would have been more soldiers and lincoln would have been protected better. major eckert, who we can use as a bodyguard, did not come. john parker did not question and was let off and should not have been the garden the first place. all of the roots out of the city -- should have been the guard in the first place. all of the routes out of the city, they both say they were close. that was not true. it is hard to know if that happened. the conspirators being coded during the trial -- hooded during the trial, lafayette baker dying prematurely. it does not prove all that much for the conspiracy theorists. it was the movie "the lincoln conspiracy of quote got then-vice president walter mondale very excited. he had the department of interior, which oversees the national park service, requested ford's theater to look at the diary and missing pages and they reviewed the diary and said that there was no hidden message in ink and then there was another piece of evidence i forgot to mention, and that is a journal that lafayette baker own in which dots had been placed under the letters. the journal was dated 1866 by lafayette baker and it said stanton did it. wow. turns out that was a 20th century fraud. people think it is great sport to dr. and come up with new evidence. they created evidence to back there believes. ultimately, civil war times which published this, recanted and apologized and said this is a fraud. after all of this, where do we come down? i'm sorry to say, it's boring, john wilkes booth did it. he had a band of terrorist conspirators who tried to kill seward and may have tried to kill johnson as well and they changed the course of american history, but there was no one behind it that i could find it. i -- we have time for questions and i will be glad to take them. yes, sir. [applause] >> [inaudible] first, i want to thank you for an excellent summary of the assassination. i'm interested in the medical aspects of the assassination. more of this "you can't make this stuff up," when you showed the photo of the three whose voters in new york in the audience -- booth brothers in new york, in the audience was dr. charles leale. that was the same night that dr. leale treated burn victims which is why he became a union army surgeon which is why he went to for theater. when booth made the speech, that led him to make the decision to go to ford's theatre to study the present' feature. that is why he wanted to be there. the other thing he may or may have not have done is administer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and closed-chest cardiac massage. he did not mention that in his report in 1865. he mentioned it in a speech in 1909, the hundredth anniversary of lincoln's birth. there is more. we do not have time. dr. nurnberger: wow. i'm going to apply view. -- applaud you. i did not know he was there on april 11. >> [inaudible] dr. nurnberger: i will use the wrong word. he is going to be a villain next week. his first name is doctor. his name was dr. doctor bliss. >> dr. richard mott, who was -- richard mudd, who was mudd's grandson, claims the saying did not come from mudd. the mudd papers, which were newspapers pre-civil war, which were like the modern day "national enquirer." if you got your name in the mudd papers, your name was mudd. dr. mudd said it was not from his grandfather, but from the "mudd papers." dr. nurnberger: the call missed mudd was also -- the columnist mudd was also enough family. >> i met dr. mudd's great granddaughter. she said he was one of the california mudd's. he is like a fifth cousin, and he is in the family. the mudd family is having a reunion at fort jefferson to commemorate the anniversary of dr. mudd's imprisonment. dr. nurnberger: thank you. i hope you come next week because we will spend a lot of time talking medical stuff. no one will top this, but any other questions? yes, sir. >> [inaudible] how the country reacted to the assassination? dr. nurnberger: what a great question. there is a great new book. the professor has been on npr. she was on the news program. i cannot give you a short answer. the question is, how did the country react? the answer is differently. african-americans thought this was the end of the world for them. father abraham would set them free. they realized very quickly afterwards that there life would not be as good as it would had he survived. in the south, there were mixed. many viewed him as a tyrant and he is dead, it is great. others realized this is an awfully decent human being and we would be better off if he had stayed. the reaction is mixed. jefferson davis's comment that this was a great tragedy is something many felt at the same time. in the north, the reaction also was mixed. radical republicans who were hoping for revenge realized that their biggest stumbling block was lincoln and how he was removed. overall there was this incredible sense of grief. another factor in terms of the reaction was the day lincoln was shot. he was shot on good friday. churches went into sunday morning sessions on easter sunday and suddenly, he is the first president shot. there were images of martyrdom and comparisons to jesus. it had a religious connotation that would not have happened -- probably would not have happened if lincoln had been a shot a week later. the fact that he was shot good friday and died the day before easter and that pastors are required to give their services on easter had a big role. at the time there was a very small jewish community in the country. he was also shot on passover. suddenly it was the moses could not bring the hebrew people to the promised land and father abraham couldn't finish the work he started. there were a lot of religious connotations, particularly in the protestant world but to a lesser degree because it was smaller, in the jewish world as well and the african-american world was devastated. the result was jim crow and lynchings and the abomination that became reconstruction. the lincoln train. lincoln's body was taken from washington and traveled around the country. it was taken first to new york and then to chicago and springfield. millions of people came out in mourning. thank you. that is an excellent question. yes, sir. why do we take two more? in the back. >> i'm wondering why we did not learn immediately from the lincoln assassination and we suffer the assassination of three more presidents. wasn't one president enough to teach us to protect them? dr. nurnberger: yes. [laughter] lincoln had bodyguards periodically, but not when he did things like going to the theater. garfield went to the train station a rome -- station alone. there were no tubes at all. -- there were no detectives at all. the desire to protect the president and create an organization to do so did not come about until after the assassination of mckinley. then there came a dispute over who should be given this assignment. the dispute came between the treasury department, which is where the secret service was. the secret service job was to try to catch counterfeiters. and the army. there was a huge debate. i believe it was teddy roosevelt who said it is inappropriate to the army to have a civilian role to protect the president, which is why it wound up in the treasury department. certainly. it should have been done sooner. it is astounding. any other? that is a good note to end on. thank you so much. [applause] for those of you who can come the story next week, garfield is even more interesting. [laughter] it's fascinating. you will really enjoy garfield . i will say the same about mckinley and kennedy,too. [laughter] thank you all. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> you're watching american history tv. 48 powers of programming every weekend on c-span3. follow us on twitter for information on upcoming programs and to keep up with the latest history news. >> history bookshelf features popular american history writers and airs on american history tv every weekend at this time. author myra macpherson describes the life of -- among the -- the life of victoria woodhull and tennessee “tennie” claflin. she hosted this book discussion at books and books in all gables florida. this is about 44 minutes. myra macpherson: i used to joke and say, is there any sex in this book, so there is sex, and
in politics and often helped her husband makes decisions. margaret taylor was opposed to her husband's nomination for president. as a teacher, abigail fillmore was the first presidential wife to have a profession and began efforts to establish the first white house library. sarah polk, margaret taylor, and abigail fillmore, this sunday night on "first ladies," influence and image, examining the public and private lives of women who fulfilled the position of first lady. from martha washington to michelle obama, sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span3. as a complement to the series, c-span's new book first ladies. it's available as a hard cover or an ebook through your favorite book store or online book seller. >> we'll take you now to oak ridge cemetery in springfield illinois, for the 150th commemoration ceremony of president ab ham lincoln's funeral. then author and historian michael burlingame talks about the reg lassie of abe ham lincoln and reflects on the ceremony in springfield. this is three hours and 20 minutes. >> you're watching american history tv on c-span3. what you're looking at now, a live picture from oak ridge cemetery in springfield illinois, for the 150th anniversary of president abe ham lincoln's funeral. richard hart on the screen, joining us from the cemetery a springfield resident and an author. your book is "lincoln's springfield: the funeral of abe ham lincoln," tell us what we'll see today. what's going to happen there behind you and all around you this afternoon? >> well thank you. well today you're going to see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 150 years ago. and it started on the square downtown, and it will take probably a half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery which is on the north side of springfield, and that procession will be a reconstruction or reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. so there will be a number of divisions with re-enactors in those divisions. you'll actually see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you're going to see a horse, which would have been abraham lincoln's horse bob, led by an african american, henry brown, coming into the cemetery. and then in back of me is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. and it is there that lincoln's body, as well as his son willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> mr. hart why was president lincoln buried in sprild, illinois? >> there was his home for 20 years before he went to washington, d.c. and only a short time before he left springfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. and mary and abraham lincoln were present on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the speeches were made. the story is that on the way home abraham lincoln said to mary, this is where i'd like to be buried. >> you mentioned mary todd lincoln and yet she didn't attend the funeral in springfield. he didn't leave washington, d.c. and travel with the train up to springfield. why is that? >> well, mary todd lincoln's life was one that she had to face many, many tragedies. and this was perhaps the greatest of all. her husband being assassinated next to her. and she was rightfully devastated by that. and was just not emotionally capable of making that trip back to springfield. her son robert todd lincoln was there with her and he did come to springfield for the funeral. >> we see, if you look on your screen there, some of the reenactors. might have seen a moment ago some of the tents. who are the folks in the tents and how long have they been out there camped out? >> well i think some of them had been here since last wednesday and perhaps that's when they first came. but thursday night when i was out here, we came out after dinner and it was just a lot of the tents were up at that time. and as i say, it was a beautiful scene, there was a full moon that night or partial, i don't know if it was full, but it was beautiful. and the oak ridge cemetery gate which was the original gate into the cemetery, was lit up. and then across the road in lincoln park were the tents with the fires that they had lit for the evening. >> so we're talking with richard hart a springfield resident and expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's funeral. tell me abraham lincoln president lincoln died here in washington on april 15th. his funeral, may 4th in springfield, illinois. what happened in that intervening period of time? what was going on in that couple of week period back in 1865? >> well, those days between the time of his assassination and his return and burial here in springfield, are somewhat the subject of this book that i have here. but it was filled with a lot of distress in the nation as to what was occurring, of course. but as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house there was an autopsy. it was embalmed. it was placed in a coffin, and there were viewings there. eventually it was taken to the train station and it was placed in a car that was owned by one of the railroads as a car for the directors of that railroad and the funeral train then left washington, d.c., and it had a number of people on that train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. and the train made a very long, long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city, and the story is that teddy roosevelt watched the procession in new york city from one of the windows on i believe it was fifth avenue. the train then -- supposedly wouldn't exceed 30 miles an hour. and all of the tracks were cleared for this train. and there was a lead train that went before it to make certain that the tracks were clear. eventually ended up in chicago and there was an enormous funeral in chicago lasting a couple of days with viewing of the body, the courthouse and then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4th. and from chicago to springfield, at every crossing, in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered often with bonfires and in many instances, there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks. and they were decorated with evergreens, flowers, and even in the middle of the night, there would be hundreds and hundreds of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers a bit later in our coverage today, we do have a couple of more things we will show folks about the train. we'll take a look at the train station there in springfield and have a bit more about president lincoln's train. how many people came to springfield back in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? >> that's an amazing question and the number is not certain, but springfield at that time had a population of about 15000 people. and the estimate is that between 75 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were trains special trains from many of the mid western cities that came into springfield. and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes. and remarkably it was the first time that a pullman train had been used and it was a sleeping car. and because of that use during the lincoln funeral it gained acceptance by the railroads as a -- another aspect of a passenger train. so that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> and again looking at live pictures of springfield illinois, a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln. talking with richard hart, resident of springfield. you see some folks dressed up in uniform and costume. are these local re-enactors or people come from all over the country to participate in this event today? >> well that's a wonderful question. because i was out here two days ago. and a couple from orlando, florida, were here, and they were dressed in period costumes that were absolutely spectacular. and they were taking each other's pictures. so i offered to take their pictures together. and then that's where i got to have this conversation with them. and they had come for this event from orlando, florida. in fact, she gave me this funeral badge. i don't know if you can see that or not, that she had made to hand out to people in springfield. since then, i've met a number of the re-enactors who are from many of the mid western states. i met a gentleman from lancaster, pennsylvania, and his re-en actment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military gun on a trailer and he was from wisconsin. and so i think it's -- there's really a kind of sub culture of re-enactors in the united states and so they have been here and are many of the people that you see in costume i think are from out of town. many of them are from springfield, but it's hard to tell where all of them -- how to divide where they're from, but it's pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is that you've lived in springfield for 47 years. most of your life anyway. and what is the most of the springfield area the springfield community about this re-enactment? are people excited to host this event? a lot of participation from everybody in the area? >> oh yeah. it's just remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days and perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been, i would say, at least ten different band concerts in the last two days at the churches around springfield and these band concerts, reenactors, and the band come again, from all over the united states and they want to exhibit their abilities. so they've had band concerts. there was a symphony last evening here, the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. this morning i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church and it was packed. and there are -- at the edwards' home, they're having people -- they're having a re-enactment tea. and it's just a phenomenal participation by the entire community for this event. i think that everyone recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life and they just want to be a part of that to honor him, and to commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> there at the cemetery, you can see richard hart a springfield resident and author and we're going to let you have a chance to ask some questions or weigh in a little bit on your thoughts on this event. our phone lines, 202-748-8900 for those of you on the east or central time zone. 202-748-8901 for the mountain and pacific time zones. mr. hart i'm going to ask one now. the procession that we're waiting to make its way up to the cemetery, and the re-enactment of the actual speeches and the funeral ceremony itself, are those historically accurate? will they be accurate representations of what took place 150 years ago? >> i believe so. i've seen the program and compared it to the program 150 years ago. and i think very much exactly the same. and so that will be very exciting to see that. >> and who were some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's funeral there in springfield 150 years ago, and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at abraham lincoln's funeral? >> oh my. there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance for the funeral. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the predominant, or the prominent minister in the united states at that time. a very prominent minister. and he came and he delivered the primary yuleuleeulee yule ojy for abraham. there were photographers from philadelphia, from chicago. there were reporters believe it or not, that came from the newspapers. the new york papers the washington papers. and one of the gentlemen that came who was a relatively young reporter at that time, went on to found the associated press. many of the photographs that these photographers took while here in springfield are still in existence, and there's actually an exhibit in springfield that has all those photographs. >> so after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson, correct, became president? >> yes. >> and did he attend the funeral? >> no, he did not. >> and why not? >> well, i think that you have to remember that in addition to this funeral transpiring at that time, within a period of 90 days in american history you had the congress passing the 13th amendment, freeing the slaves had to be approved by the states, and that wasn't done until december of that year. but that occurred. you have lincoln delivering his second inaugural address, which is a masterpiece. and then you have lincoln delivering a speech saying that he believed that certain black men should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e. lee surrendering to grant and bringing about the closing of the civil war, and the country was euphoric after that. and then within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated. and everybody went into extreme mourning. and so because of that there were -- there was a lot of uncertainty about the government and what was going to happen. so many of the government people, i think, just stayed in washington. there was also the search for john wilks booth and any of the conspirators that had participated in the murder. and that took front page on many newspapers. so you had a variety of things that were occurring. the people that came to springfield, and they were numerous from out of springfield and were high up but the president -- the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 here on the east coast 2:00 your time in illinois, richard let's take our first caller, angela from little rock. hi there you're on c-span3, go ahead. >> hello, i just have a general question. >> hello angela. >> caller: hello. i just have a general question. >> i don't know if we have angela. while we work on that -- are you there? >> caller: hello? >> all right, no angela. let me ask -- >> i'm sorry? >> all right, we're going to work on our phone call there. and as we try and get that put together, let me ask you another question, richard hart, while we're there. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we're seeing? we're seeing union soldiers there's a woman there in -- are these accurate period costumes that these re-en actors are wearing? >> absolutely. they are very, very accurate and the lady is walking toward what i think you had on the screen before, and that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. and a year ago, that did not exist. and where we are sitting this afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bram bell. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate, that was re-created this year, based on photographs of the period. and it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. and it was dedicated in december of last year. and it's through those gates that the procession will come. and it was done quite frankly because of this event today. but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. and it connects to lincoln park which is immediately to the east, and so it will become a part of this total neighborhood and the people in the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. and then what you're looking at now is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see the re-en actor tents, and the encampment there and they are in absolute accurate costumes. i mean, they are fanatics about this about every aspect of not only their costumes but their tents, the flags the food they eat, the bedding they have, everything is a re-creation of the period that they represent. and that's what i was telling the other evening when we came out here. it was absolutely beautiful, the white tents, the moonlight was hitting them. they had fires going. and it was really something. and you see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. >> all right, we'll try one more time with the phone calls. see if we can get bob from tulsa, oklahoma, on with us and with your guest in springfield. bob, go ahead, you're on c-span3. >> caller: okay, thank you. mr. hart my question is regarding the lincoln children. are they interred in the tomb? and also, i understand that robert lincoln was at the final interment of abraham lincoln, is he buried there? >> okay, thank you for that question. yes, the children are buried there. except for robert. and robert todd lincoln, by all accounts, wished to be buried there, but he was survived by his wife, and she thought that he deserved his own separate identity and monument. so he's buried in washington, d.c. and it's very interesting. before he died, his son tom died in england and was brought back to the united states and was actually buried with his grandfather abraham. when robert died, tom was taken out of the cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his father. so to answer your question robert todd lincoln is not buried here. all of the other family members are. and robert todd is buried in washington, d.c. >> let's take another call. we'll go to boise idaho, and it's casey. hi there, you're on with richard hart if springfield, illinois. go ahead. >> caller: good afternoon on this very sad memorial day. mr. hart, i had another question about robert todd lincoln. how did he get to the cemetery? because i thought i read somewhere that he was staying a couple of days in washington to console his mother and then headed out for the interment. >> you're absolutely correct. and this is one of the very interesting things that i found when i was doing the research for the book on the funeral in springfield. robert todd lincoln apparently did not intend to have come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, who was a supreme court justice and had ridden the circuit and been the judge of the circuit here in illinois where lincoln practiced law, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents took them with him back to bloomington but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting, he sent a telegram which i found, to robert todd lincoln and i'll paraphrase it but it basically said robert, it is imperative that you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends here in illinois, to a man, they said that if you did not that you would regret it for the rest of your life. i have prepared for a train to take you and you should make preparations to come immediately. well, of course after that kind of admonition from david davis, robert got on the train and did come to springfield. he stayed here for several days at least after the funeral. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where eventually the monument would be constructed, which is right in back of me on top of the hill. above the receiving vault. and perhaps you'll be able to see that a little later on. >> once again, we are live here on c-span3, american history tv springfield, illinois, the reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral and making some room for your phone calls. again, those numbers, if you're in the east, call 202-748-8900. in you're mountain or pacific time zone, 202-748-8901. we'll go to perry idaho, is that right? with jeff, hi jeff, go ahead, you're on with our guest. >> caller: thank you for this awesome program today. i was born and raised just 30 miles from springfield, a little town. my question for mr. hart is what if any role did abraham lincoln's former law partner william herndon play in the funeral? >> that's a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's law partner at the time he left springfield, was a -- there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. herndon played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, and when i was doing this research that he did not play a larger part. some of the other towns folks played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what was to be done in planning the funeral. herndon really wasn't very much a part of that. and i don't know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield lincoln was to be buried. the local people that were his relatives and friends all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. at the time it was a private residence residence on a hill and it was kind of a high ground. these men and the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built within the period between the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln very much did not want that to occur. and she threatened to remove him from springfield, or not allow him to be carried to springfield if that was done. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. and her wishes went out. >> all right, we'll move on we'll take a call now from boca raton, florida. terry, go ahead, you're on the air. >> caller: i'd like to thank c-span3 for this program. as a retired military officer and a history teacher of american history, my question for mr. hart is, i understand that there were -- after he was placed in the tomb, that there was attempts to steal the body, and i was told that he'd actually been moved out of there and placed in the caretakers' and buried elsewhere until these possible threats were taken care of and then he was later re-interd back in. so i understand that for a period of time people were visiting the tomb and actually the body may not have been there. so i'd like to find out from mr. hart how accurate that s please. >> well, that's very interesting. we're getting a little far past the time of the actual funeral. and so just to kind recount, where he was initially placed was the receiving vault. ask and that receiving vault was for general use when people could not be buried immediately. so it wasn't just for lincoln. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the back -- on the side of this hill and he and willie were moved into that vault in december of 1865. there was then a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site, as i said before robert todd was involved in that, on the top of the hill in wackback of me. and it was there that they built the first monument. and while that -- it was from that monument, and you're seeing it now on the screen. this is where lincoln is buried today. but that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone i don't remember the exact dates. and after it was redone, this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. and it was almost like a mutt and jeff show as far as the people that were involved. they failed to do it. but because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen the final interment of lincoln was that a hole was dug his body was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. and so he now lies in that tomb in back of me but he's under many feet of concrete. sometime you should research or go and ask about the number of times that lincoln was actually exhumed and then reburied. it's a number of them. and you're absolutely right there may have been a period when people were in the tomb looking at what they thought to be the final burial site of lincoln, when he was not in that actual site. he might have been somewhere within that tomb. >> we'll move on with more calls for our guest richard hart. we'll go to chicago, illinois, with melled ony. you're on c-span3. >> caller: hello how are you? >> fine, how are you? >> caller: i'm fine. what i wanted to know, i was sitting here listening, you know watching the events on tv and everything and one question just happened to come to my mind. like i know by him being the president and him being the president and all, i can't really remember if he was like basically, you know in the war or the military or anything, but i was just wondering, was there at any time, any thought of him having him buried at arlington national cemetery? you know, i was just kind of wondering about that. >> oh, yes. as far as lincoln's actual military record. he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830s, i guess, and he was a captain. but then obviously as commander in chief. he would be buried in arlington. >> i don't have any suggestion he was, i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk of the possibility of burying him in the capitol building in the vault that had been planned for george washington. that was not done. his body did lie in state in the capitol. but i think the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c.. and perhaps chicago. there was some talk of that, i think it was part of the back and forth between mary lincoln and the springfield people over where he was going to be buried in springfield. i believe at some point she said, well we'll take him to chicago and bury him there. i'm not certain that was very serious, that's a very good question about the arlington i don't -- that was not considered -- >> all right we're going to move forward and get one more call in right now, we'll go to fredericksburg, virginia it's bobby for richard heart, go ahead, bobby. >> i'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. because my mother is in oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. i did get to see the vault which was open at that time the new one 37 i saw the old vault. i wonder if you're going to talk about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary on c-span about the old vault and how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob his body and take it away. i wondered if you would talk about that where he is now is beautiful. i did go in there, my mother is there. it's quaint and interesting, and i wanted you to tell us about that. >> are you asking about where he will be buried today? or where he was buried 150 years ago? >> it's low to the ground and it's -- i remember picturing it in my mind. it was white at the hill. was that what they called it? the receiving vault? >> it's right in back of me and i don't know if the camera can show it or not. but i'm sitting on the other side of the road opposite the receiving vault. and that was what i was talking about earlier when i said it was for general -- can you see it there now? can you see the receiving vault? and there's an angle shot of it i believe. there you are. can you see that? >> the caller's not there, but we can see it, richard. >> okay. that is the receiving vault. and as i said that was built by the cemetery way in advance of lincoln's death. and it was used basically, to hold bodies until the ground might thaw and they could dig a grave or where the people hadn't decided where they were going to bury somebody. they would put them in the receiving vault until the decisions or conditions would allow burial. it was almost fortuitous that it was there, and that lincoln's body was brought there together with willie's his son who had died in washington. they were both placed in that receiving vault may 4th 1865, and then they were moved into the vault further up on the hill that was built 37 and they were moved in december of 1865. further up on the hill, you'll see the actual monument that's there today. and that was built in later years. so -- and as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was either the receiving vault or the vault on the hill. it was later on. and i claim no expertise in that area of history. so i think there's some good books out there, though, that you might look into that might describe the stealing of lincoln's body or the attempt to steal it. >> again we're live as you can see a beautiful afternoon in springfield, illinois the oak ridge cemetery, a live re-enactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln, the 150th anniversary of that event. we're going do carry the entire re-created funeral here on c-span3 for you. our guest is richard hart he's been sharing some of his expertise on this subject as we wait for some of the folks dressed up in the funeral procession to make their way up to the cemetery. let's take you to the town of elgin, illinois where david cloak of cloak construction has been build inging a replica of the train car that carried lincoln to his burial 150 years ago. >> he never rode in it when he was alive. it was pretty opulent he was a common man, he didn't want to ride in this car. he had soldiers dying everywhere, he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this car the day he died, april 15th of course, he didn't make that date. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria, virginia, as a filler job, to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that, because with all the war effort and everything, they were -- i would have thought they would have been busy. they managed to build this car. they're not sure he ordered the car, they thought stanton did. after his death they converted it to the funeral car to haul his body back to springfield. >> what happened to the original trail after the funeral in 1865. >> union pacific actually owned it, and dr. rand owned it and used it for a business car. and he owned it for a while, and sold it to a railroad in colorado. and then they ended up buying the railroad back they ended up with the car again. then they sold it to some man that took it on tour it was in st. louis, i believe. a man had bought it, and he was going to take it to minnesota and build a building to put it in, it was sitting on the site in minneapolis, and kids started a prairie fire, and it got burned in minneapolis in 1911. this was a really fancy car for a time it would have been like the air force one of its day. as you can see, it's pretty well decorated. it's going to be a beautiful reproduction of the car, as close as we can get. we think we're about 95% accurate. we've had a lot of good volunteers on board to take care of the woodwork and upholstery. i built two period locomotives, i have a 1968 locomotive that i built from scratch. and we built another one for another group. after that was over, i always wanted to build a car and what better car to build. the only one that was ever made like this, and the only one made by the government or owned by the government. they leased their cars. i was talking to some friends in california, and we talked about building a car, and we kind of kicked it around and decided to build the lincoln funeral car it was an historic car. it's going to go on and be an educational tool. there are a lot of people that will get to see this car and see what it was like in 1864 to ride in what the railroad cars looked like, they were pretty nice. as you can see. >> how long have you been working on this project? >> probably all together about 5 years. three and -- we were talking about it last night and when we laid the floorboards after the frame was built was last march i think we've done pretty well. this was -- well, this would have been a pilot room at one time. this is where willie's coffin was. he was on this end, mr. lincoln was on the other end. we're trying to create the funeral end, president lincoln's end would be the other end. we'll dick rate that. the rest of the car we'll kind of leave that as it would have been before the funeral as it was decorated for him. we don't really have any pictures of the car, but we have a lot of description of what the car was. someone had the foresight to interview people that worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the '20s. >> and what was the central room? >> that would have been his state room or bedroom. we think, we're pretty sure there's not a lot of description about it but we kind of decorated it like the period of the period. >> what are some of the pieces that are in that room? >> we put a bed in it is a period bed. we had a lady come on board that's really into history, she's a re-enactor, she bought this furniture and had it redone. we don't know if it's exactly right. it's period furniture, we know that but what was in here, it's lost to history. >> the third room will be more designed as his funeral room where his coffin will be with actually two chairs which actually came off a slavery plantation, they were there to guard the coffin. we'll have them set up on either side and then we'll also have the black crepe draped on the curtains. the carpeting the exact same company that made the carpeting for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it's made out of wool. it's completely an 18th century period carpeting which was made on a loom. and they had to hand stitch some of the fabric together. we went with this color because in the descriptions, they talked about forest green, crimson rose rosettes, green leather. that's how we came up with this color. >> there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all of the 26 even the southern states. we figured he won all of it. these lamps we had made in california, i met him last july and that's what he does. he made lamps for the movie industry, we re-created the lamps from the descriptions we have, and the period. the etching on the windows we knew that from the original window they found, the guy in minneapolis has. we're able to get that etching. so that's correct. we had a guy in tucson that's probably the foremost expert on this car, he built seven models, he's our technical adviser. he doesn't have a lot of detail on the inside of the car but on the outside and he was instrumental in getting the color. several of the windows that survived the windows up here, that are actually, there's a man in minnesota that owns one and they took it to a lab and had a paint analysis on it. we knew the inside was white, offwhite. they call it zinc white in the book, that's an old terminology. we have a lot of pictures of the outside of the car in harrisburg and new york there's quite a few pictures of the outside. we think we nailed the bunting and -- there's supposed to be a lot more striping and stuff on the car. our funding has been a little low for that. gold leaf is not cheap. >> the railings are different on each end. we have a full railing and this end with the door which was actually hand made by blacksmiths. which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full set railing that's the end they used to roll the coffin in and out of that doorway. >> the trucks, they're brought up to modern specifications they're all steel frames. back in the day they would have been a wood frame truck, they would have a dual gauge wheel, which derailed every time they went through a switch. that was not a good idea and it fell out of favor quickly. besides that after the war, they built everything with standard gauge which was mr. lincoln's idea also. he signed a deal that american railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to die the east and west together, he wanted to tie california to the union, and that was -- he signed the trans continental railroad act also. he did a lot of things for this country that people don't realize. >> the real significance is, we really want to re-create history. it's a once in a lifetime project. we want to educate people, especially the youngest generation and really how people traveled back then. and lincoln was just a magnificent man, he had a great vision, when he decided to sign the railroad act and he brought the central pacific together, so we had railroad tracks across the country, that's really what made our country grow. that's what made america america. so lincoln had a wonderful vision. we're kind of on route to salute lincoln now, it's the 150th anniversary, we're passionate about the project, and about lincoln himself. it was lincoln who actually inspired dave to build the locomotive engine 37 with that, he realized the 150th anniversary was right around the corner, he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make this happen for the 150th anniversary. >> live again here from springfield, illinois, on american history tv here on c-span3. the re-enactment, 150 years later of president abraham lincoln's funeral. we've been waiting for the reenacters, we're told some 1,000 or so reenacters participating in the events today making their way up this road toward the cemetery with us, all afternoon. all afternoon our gift has been richard hart who is there, richard, i see you're wearing your black. it's not really an arm band. it's a ribbon kind of on your suit lapel. what is that? and is that historically accurate? >> i'm not -- i don't know if it's historically accurate, i believe it is. a lady gave that to me yesterday yesterday. and so i told her i'd wear it today. it's -- there are a number of people out here that have these ribbons, they're accurate. historically there were a number of these ribbons that were made some people still have them and they're on exhibit in some of the museums. >> richard, we can start to see there, i think you can see it there as well on your monitor, the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us a bit about what we're seeing? >> well, can you hear the bell ringing? >> we sure can. >> can you hear -- >> that's the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. and it was rung -- i don't think it was here at the time. it's being rung to announce the entrance of the procession into oak ridge cemetery. so, you're now seeing one of the first divisions. they're marching they're all in full uniform. and they are coming in very slowly slowly. i lost it. i lost the hookup. >> we're going to let you find the hookup there richard as you do that we watch this procession very solemnly the reenacters making their way up the street. let's watch and listen here on c-span3 c-span3. >> sure. [ bells tolling ] >> i can see a little more now. it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking very slowly. i don't know who the lady is in front here she's certainly not a proper military gear. you can see their instruments and their -- of the period and then directly in back of them is one of the regiments. they're walking down what is known as first street. and it's somewhat of a hill that they'll come down into the valley and then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. you see the gate and now it's being opened. you can see the tents where the reenacters stayed. >> were funeral processions like this common occurrence for citizens. was this very unusual or very unique to abraham lincoln. >> i think the victorian customs were much more elaborate than what we have today. i think that's conceded that this was the ultimate funeral of all times, it's -- in history as far as victorian funerals, it was the ultimate. in victorian funerals, also i believe it was the history of mankind. i think over time -- i don't know how many millions of people viewed the train and his body as it came back to springfield, and as i said, there were probably 100 visitors in springfield for the funeral. >> and would those visitors have lined this route we're looking at now? would they have been lined up watching this procession? >> they would have. they would have and they would have been in this valley where i'm sitting across from the receiving vault. and they were divided into divisions. the people that marched in this procession, and it was by their military unit. there were may sonic divisions. there were clergy divisions. there were lawyer divisions that, and it just went on and on. the official order of the procession is very interesting to read as far as enumerating all these different institutions and military routes. >> i want to interrupt you. we saw some of the military reenacter reenacters doing the hoosah. is that a common custom the military would do at an event like this? >> i believe so, they're now entering the gate, can you see that i believe. they're just now coming through the gate. you can see them, it's just the drum, i believe, i don't believe they're playing any instruments, it's just a slow drum beat. do you see them? >> let's watch and listen as this procession makes its way into the cemetery. >> here is the -- this is the hearse that you see now. >> what are those things on the top of the hearse? this hearse was loaned to the city of springfield who was a funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses that's been reconstruct reconstructed by the family here in springfield in great detail and great accuracy by veterans. and i believe they're here today and they've done an absolutely outstanding job of detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes you can see on the hearse. and the horse ss, i believe some of these horses are from the amish, which are around sullivan, illinois. and they have these workhorses. i believe that these are they. they lease them out for this occasion occasion. the first part of the procession is now approaching the receiving vault. and you might perhaps not hear the drum beat. just a slow pace. ♪ >> the hearse has now stopped awaiting -- [ bells tolling ] >> richard, general joseph hooker was the marshall in chief. can you tell us who he was historically, and why was he the major general. >> very good question, i had lunch today with michael burlingame who's a lincoln scholar and knows just about everything about the civil war. i ask him that very question. i did not know, and he said he did not know either. hooker had a rather interesting career in the united states military. both up and down. and had been both successful and also lost several battles. but he was in charge of this to springfield. the military aspects of it he was in charge of this procession procession. he was very fond of the women, and that's how the name hooker got attached to certain aspects of it. now, you're seeing the beautiful, beautiful hearse. there's six horses pulling that. absolutely gorgeous. and the military in back of me are again drums beating at a slow drum beat. you can see the instruments perhaps of the band. and you're looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gate. >> richard, what about as we can see there in the hearse, the coffin, that is a re-creation obviously of the actual coffin of abraham lincoln. was there something special i assume -- a specially made coffin for the president? >> it was and it is a group of people that did an amazing amount of research for this occasion. it's been on display. they've done a wonderful job. here comes the rev rant henry brown with the horse bob. you see the reverend he's a black man, he worked for the lincolns, he was living in quincy he came to springfield to lead lincoln's horse in the funeral. and you can see that. that's very moving. in back of me now, the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. and you can see the pallbearers lined up in back walking with the hearse. many of those pallbearers are zen dents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart, his great great grandfather was john todd stewart who was the first law partner of abraham lincoln, he is in the procession today today. >> now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault, it's become very quiet. and you can see the pallbearers walking in back with a white sash sash. >> the hearse is now approaching the receiving vault. it's about to stop. it has stopped. >> richard what division is this that we've been watching. which is closest to the hearse? >> i'm not exactly certain. there are many divisions, many of them came from camp butler which is a union camp just east of springfield many of these are units, the wisconsin brigade iron brigade. they're pulling the hearse off to the side. the ostrich plumes we referred to earlier. was that a common symbol of mourning in the victorian era? >> i believe it was, but i don't think anything approach eded this carriage. this carriage was probably the pin ultimate. >> 150 years ago, were there foreign dignitaries present as well in springfield? >> i'm sorry when did you ask when? >> yeah during the funeral 150 years ago, were foreign dignitaries present as well in springfield. >> oh, yes, i think one of the callers had asked that earlier, my book lists all the various people that were here, there were probably 20 generals from the civil war. david davis. who was a supreme court justice, and there were just many people. the president, obviously was not here. there were a number of dignitaries and a number of dignitaries that came within the weeks after the burial. >> that was my question given the difficulty in travel and communications 150 years ago, if any europeans or anyone from outside the united states was able to arrive in springfield in time, president lincoln dying may 14th. >> i'm not aware of any. yes. >> i'm not aware of any kind of diplomatic, foreign representatives or any europeans that may have come for the funeral. i'm not aware of that. it was -- i will say this. at the end of the funeral procession in the original order of proceedings. it was the colored people and others. and as this came into oak ridge cemetery on the north side of springfield there were assembled approximately 10,000 african-americans to pay their respects. >> so we're looking at some of these divisions and we have the list here, i'll share some of those with you, richard. you may not have that in front of you. the first division was headed up by the march shall in chief major general joseph hooker. >> oh, yeah. >> the second division was the military not assigned to other units. individual soldiers and retired military. the third division had the pallbearers around the hearse, the family members and carriages. fourth division was the congressional delegation and the governors. fifth division members of local governments. the sixth division members of christian sanitary commissions and similar organizations. aid societies and delegations from universities and colleges. the 7th division members of social organizations like the free masons and local fire companies. and the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up 150 years ago. i assume they're re-creating that to some extent today in this re-creation? >> yes not as fully as it was at this time. the original procession, 150 years ago, i believe was much larger than we've seen today. >> you can see some of the fire company there in period costumes. >> there's a great photograph of the fire company in downtown springfield right before they left on the procession. it's a wonderful photograph. >> it's interesting, you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings, and the color would mean something or the way that they were draped would mean something. and -- so that was a way of identifying. and as you can see, many of the people have the funeral medallion on as i have on my coat this afternoon. these are people that are dressed as reenacters. and notice that nun of them wear black. do you know why that is? >> at that time only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. and you were not supposed to dress in black if you were not a member of the family. >> i assume that applied more to the ladies than the gentlemen. that would have been their every day wear i assume? >> exactly. >> we're watching again, with richard heart, who is there in springfield, illinois, the re-enactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln lincoln. when the procession -- >> there's the -- >> i was going to say, when the processionists got themselves all the way in, we see them moving the coffin now, then it would be a re-enactment of the ceremony as well as the oratory. let's watch this the soldiers moving the coffin of the president. >> you see the umbrellas there all the photographs of the funeral in 1865 they're just a mass of umbrellas, because of the heat of the day, just like today today. again, a live picture on your screen there, from springfield, illinois. this is a re-creation of the funeral of abraham lincoln which took place some 150 years ago this weekend. you see reenacters there in the period appropriate uniforms of the union army. you're hearing the voice as well of richard heart an expert on the subject of the funeral of abraham lincoln. and your book is called what? >> the funeral of abraham lincoln, may 3rd and 4th 1965. >> how long did it take you to research all of this for that book and to put that together. how long after you've been interested in this particular event in the life of, the history of abraham lincoln. >> at least the last three years, i collected photographs of 19th century springfield for some time. i've had a number of photographs in the funeral of 1865. i knew this funeral was coming up, i got interested in it i never was before. i know it was a boring topic, but it's absolutely fascinating the whole story from the time of the assassination to the time of the burial. it's an incredible story. so that's -- it took me about three years. >> in the event capturing the imagination of many others. are the reenacters all these people we see in the period costumes, are those costumes something at their own expense, they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? >> yes, yes, it is. and it can become very expensive not only the outfits and the costumes, but the military equipment, guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for a military person, they buy. there are events where they go and they'll be a huge place to buy things for reenacters. it can become a very expensive hobby hobby. but there seems to be great enjoyment in doing it, great camaraderie among the participants in these. one of them told me you see us perform during the day. but our camps at night are just -- it's like las vegas. what happens in those camps has to stay in those camps. it's -- they say they have a lot of fun. >> the body is now being taken around for viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin that you mentioned earlier in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. and, of course, the flowers on top every town that the train went through it seemed that there were enormous bouquets of flowers that would be offered. some of them were put on the outside of the train. just an outpouring of floral tributes. >> as we approach the actual re-creation, richard of the ceremony, we're talking to richard heart about this re-creation, re-enactment of president lincoln's funeral. what sort of clergy involvement was there, was there a denominational ceremony of any sort? what can you tell us about that? >> well william simpson who was the minister he was the principle speaker i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either red psalms or other religious passages, and the music was -- some of it was very traditional music for funerals there were a number of musical pieces that were written for the funeral. and so it was a long -- it seems to me it was a long funeral service with -- i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, i think simply because the people that spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife mary belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield but lincoln had heard simpson and had thought he was just an outstanding minister. the people here now are assembling before the large stage that has been erected. that would not have been there at the time of the actual funeral. this, i think, is done so people can all hear and see here today. there is a large stage it has a lectern with an abraham lincoln medallion on the front of it and flowers and different plants and one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now, and the coffin is on a black table -- a table cloth with a black table cloth over it. it's sitting there you can see it now. and then behind that and toward the other hill here there are symbols -- people in period dress men some of them in top hats ladies as i said all in dresses other than black. some of them have parasols and umbrellas. the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see up the hill in back. people are standing and then behind the vault on the hill going up to lincoln's tomb. this would have been very similar to the pictures that are now in -- still exist of the way people were positioned at that time. as i say, this stage is not something that was there in 1865, but perhaps everyone will get to be able to better see and hear. >> richard -- >> there's also a big screen tv outdoor television up here for everybody to see what's going on. >> well, let's ask that question, in 1865 springfield illinois had a population of -- >> the oak trees in this cemetery are outstanding, richard, can you hear me? i was going to ask you in 1865. >> probably the best example of midwest oaks in illinois. the number of oaks and they have been trimmed for this occasion, and we had a drought several years ago, some of the oaks were taken down within the last week by volunteers. the wood has been dated -- the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era, they're saving the tree wood and making that into mementos for people who visit oak ridge and want to have such a memento. >> as you can see here on c-span3, the re-enactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral, looks like it's about to get underway. we're going to thank our guest there in springfield richard hart for being with us all afternoon and offering his insight insight. this is american history tv on c-span 3 as you can see this re-enactment on a beautiful spring day in springfield, well underway, and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when we're done with this -- when the funeral re-enactment itself is done, we'll have a chance for you to talk to a historian, and we'll take more of your phone call ss. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [crying baby] ♪ ♪ ♪ mouz muse. good afternoon. thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly. as we do those things that are necessary for president lincoln. at this time i would like to introduce to you lynn wool who will be portraying reverend albert hale. >> let us pray. father of heaven, we acknowledge thee as the author of our being and the giver of every good and perfect gift. thou givest life and takest away. the lives of men and the lives of nations are in thy hands. we bow down today believing with sub missive hearts we may acknowledge thee in the serious thoughts that press upon the millions today. we thank thee that thou givest to this nation thy servant so mysteriously and maliciously taken from us. we thank thee father in heaven that he was raised to a position of power and authority that through him thou has led them through storm and strife to the present and hopeful condition of our public affairs. we mourn before thee our hearts bow in grief and sorrow. we remember the bereaved widow and family. we pray that in this honor, this hour of their trial, god give to them those blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation that they in their grief shall make this event not only a sorrow, but under god the opening day of numberless blessings. to thee we commit them and all relatives who mourn in consequence to this distressing event and to thee we commit the people of the city and of the state in which it has grown up whose affection he holds today in his death stronger than in the most powerful moment of his life. merciful god bless us and help us and cherish the memory of his life, and the worth of the high example he has shown us. we do pray and bee each thee the high purpose for which he lived may be carriried to a completion. and oh god thank thee for that other example which you set us in a steadyadherence to truth, a love of freedom and the opposition to wrong injustice and slavery. and we pray that god will grant that the policy of our government touching these great issues may be successfully carried through when not a slave shall clank his shackles in the land and not a soul be found that will not rejoice in his glory and the reigning power in the hearts of the nation. oh, god our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who is called to occupy the chair of state. give unto him humility, give him direction to his steps and a love of rightousness. our father in heaven, we pray thee on the millions that have come out of bondage remember them. and our brother who was taken from us. may all the people unite in their prayers their patience, their self denial, so that these may come up and take their place in the nation as citizens. rejoiceing in newborn privileges and the rights which god gave and which man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we ask thy blessings on all those that are endeavoring to secure the public interest against the hands of an assassin and let think justice and power speedily rid the nation of those lusts out of which all these evils arise. the union rise up from this great trial and become a light among nations of earth in all future time. father in heaven, thou art just and holy in all thy ways. we are sinful and unworthy of our privileges not rewarding us according to our iniquities, hear us and aid us and accept through our christ, our redeemer, through with the father and the holy spirit is glory ever lasting, amen. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ benjamin cole, will be portraying the doctor. a reading from job, chapter 19. have pity upon me have pity upon me, oh, ye my friends. for the hand of god has touched me. why do ye persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh. oh, that my words were now written. oh, that they were printed in a book. that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever. for i know that my redeemer liveth and he stand on the latter day upon the earth. and though after my skin, worms destroy this body, yet in the flesh, i shall see god, who i shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold and not another, though my rains be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ in thee i live in thee i lye ♪ ♪ content ♪ chief justice frank j williams rhode island supreme court retired will portray reverend dr. matthew simpson. fellow citizens of illinois and of many parts of our entire nation. near the capitol of this large and growing state of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove, and at the vault which is about to receive the remains of our fallen chieftain we gather to pay a respectful tribute and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago, he left his plain and quiet home exchanging parting words with friends who gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century. where his children had been born and where he enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an ernest request in the hearing of some who are present at this hour. that he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any which had fallen upon any man since the days of washington. people would offer up prayers that god would aid and sustain him in the work. he left your quiet city. but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only on through thevigilence so that tragedy was suspended for four years. how different the occasion which witnessed his departure from that which witnessed his return? doubtless. you expected to take him by the hand and feel his warm grasp and to see his tall form walking among you. but he was never able to return until he came with lips mute and silent. the frame enc onoffined and a weeping nation following as his mourners. there's been other mornings where kings and warriors have fallen, but never has there been such mourning that has companied this funeral pro session of our loved one who now sleeps among us. tears fill the eyes of sun burnt faces. strong menace they clasp the hands of their friends were not abe to find words to express grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields, the hum of factories ceased, and the sound of the hammer was not heard. merchants closed their doors in businesses and homes and they were draped in black. though three weeks have elapsed and there's a mournful silence upon the land, this mourning is not confined to any class or any district of the country. men of all political parties and of all religious creeds have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and a protestant minister walked side-by-side in a sad pro sessioning and a jewish rabbi performed a solemn part of the services. here gathered around his tomb, are soldiers, sailors senators, governors and offices of all the branches of the government. here too are men and women from the humblest, as well as the highest occupations. here too are tears sincere and warm which come from the eyes of those who have been freed from their chains by him whom they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed on the face of the departed than has gazed on my other departed man. more have looked on the pro session for 1600 miles by night, daylight, dawn, twilight and torch light than ever before watched the progress of a pro session. why has there been this extensive mourning this great out-pouring of grief and this great pro session? perhaps it is because of the time in which we live and in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change. a time of war. in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wives gave their husbands and mothers their sons to the cause. many never returned. and there was mourning in every home in the land. then came signs that the end of this rebellion was near. news came that richmond had fallen and lee had surrendered the bells range and the booming of cannon was heard. illumination and torch-light pro sessions manifested the joy, and families were looking for the speedy return of their loves ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy and one hour nay in one minute, all the joy was stilled when news that abraham lincoln, the best of presidents, had perished by the hand of an a assassin. then all the feelings, which had been gather for four years in forms of excitement, grief, horror and joy turned in to one wale of woe he was stricken down when his hopes for the end of the rebellion were bright. and prospects of a joyous life were before him. but perhaps the great cause of this mourning is to be found in the man himself. mr. lincoln was no ordinary man. the conviction has been growing on the nation's mind that by hand of god, he was especially singled out to run our government. he had a logical turn of mind which followed, unwaiveringly every link in the chain of thought on subjects which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds more broad in their character more comprehensive in their scope, but he had the ability to follow step by step with more approximate logic alabama power, the points which he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to perceive the truth in all its relations and simplicity, and when found, to utter it. his morale power gave him preeminence that people saw him as an honest man who would do what was right regardless of the consequences, it was this moral feeling that gave him the hold on the world. the great act on the mighty chief on which his fame will rest long after his frame goes away, is that of giving freedom to a race. such a power, such an opportunity, god hasly seldom given to man. when other events shall have been forgotten. when his world shall have become a network of republics. when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth. when literature will enlighten all minds and the claims of humanity shall be recognized everywhere. this act shall be obvious on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the decision and wisdom and grace to issue that proclamation which stands high above all other papers, which have been penned by uninspired men. abe raraham lincoln was a good man he was known as an honest on estimate -- he was known as honest, just man, a man of noble heart in every way look over his speeches and listen to his utterances he never spoke un unkindly of any man. in his domestic life, he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted father and husband. standing by his coffin let us resolve the carry forward the policy that he so nobly had gun.e lyy had begun, let us do right by all men, and eradicate every part of human slavery to give every human being the true position before god and man. to crush every form of rebellion, and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when in the beautiful words of him whose lips are now forever sealed, the mystic cords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and haerth stone all over this broad land will yet swell the chorus of the union, when again touched as surely they will be from the better angels of our nature. chief, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to their children. the youth of our land shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your record and learn lessons of wisdom. mute though your lips be yet they still speak. hushed is your voice. but it's he can he-- but it's echos of liberty are heard throughout the world. prisoned in dth, and yet, you are marching abroad and chains and manacles are crushed. humanity enthrones you as the triumphant son. hero, friend. farewell. ♪ ♪vwv÷ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ reverend jerome cankawalski will portray reverend hubbard. during the first week of march in 1865 on the steps of the capitol in washington city, the 16th president of these united states gave his second naug inaugural address, this is what he said. fellow country men, there's less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. then, the statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. now at the exoperation of four years during which public decorations have been called forth on every point and phase of the great contest that still absorbs the attention and egress, and the energies of the nation, little that is new, could be presented. the progress of our arms upon which all else chiefly depends is well known to the public as it is to myself. and it is, i trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. with high hope for the future no prediction in regard to it, is ventured. to occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it. all sought to avert it. while the inaugural address was being delivered from this place devoted all together to saving the union without war agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war. seeking to the dissolve the union and divide effects by negotiation. both parties depricated war, but one of them would make wore rather than let the nation survive and the other would accept war rather than let it perish and the war came, 1/8 of the whole population were colored slaves not distributed generally over the union but localized in the southern part of it. these slachs constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. and all knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. to strengthen, and perpetuate the interest was the way that the insurgents would -- expected for the war, the magnitude or duration which is already attained. neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might crease with or even before the conflict itself should cheesrease, each looked for a easier triumph and the result was less astounding. both read from the same bible both parade to the same god and each invoked his aid against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance? ringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces. but let us not judge that we be not judged. the prayers of both could not be answered. that if neither has been answered fully the almighty has his own purposes. woe unto the world for its offenses, woe to that man by whom the offense cometh, if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of the offenses that must needs come but which having continued through his appointed time now will remove, and he gives to both north and south this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came,ly shall we discern any departure of the attributes that the believers in god subscribed to him. do we pray that the scourge of war pass away. if god wills that it continues, until the bondsmen of unrequited toil be sunk and every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn by the sword as was set 3,000 years ago, so must it still be said the judgments of the lord are true and rightous all together. with malice toward none with charity for all, with firmness in the right as god gives us the right to see, let us strive on to finish the work we are in. to bind up the nation's wounds and care for him who fworn battle for his widow and orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ cheers and applause ] i am reverend, jr. and i portray dr. simion heartcky. oh, god who's generations rise and pass away, the strength of those that labor and the repose of the blessed dead, we rejoice in the communion of thy saints, we remember all that have faithfully lived and those that peacefully died and those most dear to us and especially our great friend and and leader, abraham lincoln who now rests in thee. give us at length our portion of those that trusted in thee and driven in all things to do your holy will and untoyou know unto thy name, we give honor and glory world without end. amen. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ reverend gene tucker will portray reverend gurley. with your kind permission. be permitted to share portions of the word for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19th. as we stand here today, mourners around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate we recognize and we adore the government of god, his throne is in the heavens and his kingdom ruleth overall. he has done and he hath permitted to be whatsoever he pleased. whom the lord loveth, he chasten us. how the words have cheered and sustained us through the long and weary years of civil strife. while our friends and brothers on so many fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthen and sustain us today. true, this new sorrow and chaistening has come in such an hour and in such a way as we thought not that he should be taken from us. and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country. and justs as he was beginning to be animated and gladdened with the hope of enjoying with the people the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home here in illinois, and coming to the city of washington, to take his seat in the executive chair, of a disturbed and troubled nation. he said, to the old and tried friends that gathered tearfully around him and bade him fairwell, i leave you with this request. pray for me. they did pray for him. and millions other people prayed for him. nor did they pray in vain. their prayer was heard and the answer appears in all his subsequent history, it shines forthheavenly radiance in it's course of commencement and close. god raised him up for a great and glorious mission, and turn issued him for its work and aided him in its accomplishment. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and tenacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things he gave him a calm and abiding confidence in the overruling providence of god and in the ultimate triumph of truth and righteousness and through the power and blessing of god. this confidence strengthed enhim through the hours of toil. and inspired him with calm and cheering hope when others were declining to gloom. never shall i forget the emphasis and the deep emotion with which he said in the east room of the executive mansion. to accompany a clergyman and others that called to pay him their respects, in the dark estimate days of our civil conflict. gentlemen, he said, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation the justice and goodness of god. and when events are very threatening, and the prospects are very dark i still hope that in some way which man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just, and god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith and it was an anchor to his soul both sure and stead fast. by dwell constantly on the words and actions, your people will have a illustrious character before their eyes and not conat the present time with the bare hinge of your mortal frame, they will have what is more valuable, the feerps of your mind. busts and statues like the originals are frail and perish perishable perishable, but, you, friend, will survive yourself and triumph over the injuries of time. let us pray. oh, mighty god and loving father, we commend the soul of the humble servient abraham. and by opening the gates of larger life, he may be received more and more in to thigh loving presence, that he may enter in to the blessed rest promised to all thy saints. grant us all by thy grace to on cherish the good work done in him and the empowering spirit, may we be able to carry forth the ideals of liberty and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. and remembering that great mercies and loving kindness, we ask these things forsake of your holy name, amen. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ it is finally my honor and prif tloej introduce to you a woman i met a few months ago and now call a very good friend. katie spindell. governor and mrs. rouner distinguished guests. ladies and gentlemen, in 1865. the funeral of abraham lincoln is a very dark and difficult time in life. and how horned we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1864. it truly has been an honor. [ cheers and applause ] there are a coupe of additions that we want to add to the program that i think that you will all appreciate. would the pal bearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the history. and we were able to do that with in our palbearers. i know they are coming. would you be kind enough gentlemen to please just come tloong front here? and if you can single file. as a geneologist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you to all know right now, is within the pal-bearers, we have direct descendents of the original palbearers, please step forward, those that are descendents. step forward. [ cheers and applause ] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are recreating the role their ancestor played and i'm honored they are here. i want to thank the springfield society and the community members i have no idea how many of any one of them. i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them? and their director, marianne had to put up a lot with me. i also want to thank the fifth michigan, the band that is over here. and while we are doing this, i am sure she will love to sign it. we have to thank missy who is our interpreter today. i would like to now have the commander and the crew from the u.s.s abraham lincoln who have honest onnered springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. they will be placing a wreath at the assault and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me you will see it when it's all done. we will let them get on with their great work. commander and crew, we honored, truly to have you here. [ applause ] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here, but around the world. the gentlemen that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it's difficult, an extraordinary man. named reverend keith was part of our group. and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it's now to make sure that keith is represented here with that empty chair and his robe. we also had to alternates for the clergy. one of them is reverend david a anderson and the other one was malcolm shotwell and i'm grateful for them for always being willing to pinch hit when we needed it. [ applause ] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit in to history yet again. general hooker. the rest of the program, sir, is yours. general cook make ready your guns. abraham lincoln, our favorite son, our neighbor our friend. taken from us far too was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787. pennsylvania, 1787. pennsylvania, 1797. -- 87. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788, maryland, 1788 south carolina, 1788 new hampshire, 1788. virginia 1788. new york 1788. i north carolina 1789. rhode island, 1790. have the vermont 1791. tennessee, 17196. ohio, 1803, louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi 1817. illinois, 1818 alabama, 1819. maine, 1720.kansas missouri, , 1721. the arkansas, 1836. the michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1850. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada 1864. and the war was over. and now he belongs to the ages. thank you. [ gun shots ] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ and that brings to an end the reenactment of the 150th anniversary of president lincoln's funeral. minut it took place may 4th 1865.oining in just a minute michael burlingame will be joining us to take your calls and to talk am about this day and president lincoln as well. he is the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on twitter @cspanhistory. or join the conversation on our s facebook page. professor burlingame this is a beautiful spring day out there in springfield, illinois. what was it like 150 years ago? pre >> it was very similar. and the conditions that prevail today are kwiekquite strikingly re ever similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? >> yes, there was. his widow up upset by plans urie being made bd y the local authorities to have him buried in the center of town. and she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge which is about 3 miles north of the center of town. she claimed it was her husband's wish to be buried here rather than the center of town. when the local authorities remain resisted, she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago.se the so the local authorities bowed . to her wishes. the widow does have the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. so she was perfectly within her right. >> she was not there that day though, was she? >> she was not there. by she was so grief stricken by the assassination of her husband that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination.as her older son, robert came out here for the funeral. but he was the only family member who made it to springfield for the occasion. >> now, today's events that we've been live with all day, how accurate from your research? >> based on what i've discovered in my research, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making them as authentic as possible. and it's to their credit. >> professor burlingame now that the funeral has ended. and what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day in spripg disper field? >> i'm not really an authority on that.>> let' i presume the crowd disbursed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. michael burlingame is the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." and a lincoln expert. jeanine is calling right from your city, springfield illinois. >> hi my question is symbolic , that the local springfield committee made i think there s it was about 16 members. would that vote -- was it just on o symbolic to vote --r i think it fe' was like 8-7 honoring the r president's wife's wishes to bury him in oak ridge, or if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on it is another plat? >> the vote was indeed 8-7. and it's not entirely clear what would have happened if the vote had been reversed. it's entirely conceivable mrs. lincoln would have insisted on having him buried in chicago, or but h even the united states capitol. a funeral vault had been created for george washington but he's buried elsewhere. so there was an empty space, as it were. >> michael burlingame, he died on april 15th. it is now may 4th. that's 20 days. how did they preserve the body? >> with embalmers and one of the more alarming aspects of this story of the fub ral train is that as the train proceeded from washington to baltimore and thene onto philadelphia, new york, harrisburg and so on onto albany to new york buffalo and cl cleveland and thenev eventually ton spring chicago and down to springfield the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artists were hard by t pressedhe to keep the corpse from n the looking more and more like a mum my. by the time he reachedhat here he was more like a mummy than the man in real life. >> is it an open casket there in springfield? >> yes open caskets yes. or l >> stephanie is calling in from chicago. >> how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred, how many years?t an wasdn't there a fear about it t wasn't finished yet, the tomb and they put him somewhere inside of it? i'm not sure. was there a bunch of years? >> thank you ma'am. >> i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the receiving vault before it was placed in the tomb proper but it was a while. >> and e his body has been at oak corre ridge since mayct 4th 1865, correct? >> that's correct. >> patricia in manchester tennessee. goodou afternoon. >> good afternoon. i'd like to just make a comment. i just watched the whole program and it was outstanding except aurus foran the fact that i don't feel that the tourist and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful of our fallen president.rrible and i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible, shameful way to act laughing and carrying on when they were carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. professor burlingame, do you know how many people were at oak ridge on may 4th 1865? >> i'm sorry, i don't. >> let's move onto bobby in jacksonville illinois. bobby, you're on american history tv. hi. >> hello. years how many years abraham lincoln lived in springfield in that house? >> thank you, ma'am. >> he -- president lincoln -- well mr. lincoln moved into the1861 house in 1844. and left in 1861. we so he was in that house for 17 years. but the house that we know today was a two-story rather imposing 1856. structure in that neighborhood was not that tall until 1856. hou so most of the time that the lincolns spent in that house, it was a one-story, much more modest house. and it was only the last five years that they lived in the hous e with the extra story added. that was done by mrs. lincoln in 1856. so when we visit the house -- disto >> go ahead and finish. >> when we visit the house we get a somewhat distorted view of what most of the time that the lincolns lived in the house, it at we looked like. that it was much more cramped space than what we find when we go to the house today. it wasn't so cramped for the last five years of their residence. >> if people come to visit s refl springfield, what will they see that's reflective of abraham lincoln and his life there? >> well there's a great deal here in springfield. it's what i refer to as the holy land. linc you have the lincoln home of course and the lincoln tomb. you have the lincoln law office where he practiced with his partner. and dramatically, yoa u have the old state capitol where he served as a legislator as a stati young man and gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station s beau for which heti departed for washington and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so there's a great deal to be seen. on top of that you have the abraham lincoln museum which is now ten years old which is quite of ath magnificent place for visitorsplease to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham nd that lincoln. >> and in fact cspan was live with the opening of that museum. you can find it at cspan.org if you'd like to watch our coverage. henry is in panama city, other i florida. >> i'd likfaemi to ask the professor, are there any other immediate family members of yes abraham lincoln buried at oak ridge cemetery?willie i >> oh, yes.ere mrs. lincoln is buried here and l thre willie ise buried here. and tad is buried here and eddie is buried here. all -- three of the four sons are buried here, plus the widow. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. thoug as a military veteran, his wife t, i w thought he should be buried in gton t arlington o cemetery. when i discovered that 20-some years ago, i went out to arlington cemetery to visit, to pay tribute to him. his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> professor what was mary todd lincoln's life like in y springfield after she returned as a prwidow? >> she was not very popular in isters springfield.goni she was a very difficult woman e and she had antagonized her field sisters, neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband's death. and she spent time in chicago.come she spent time abroad. and only in the later years did she come back to springfield to why sh stay with here sister. that's why she stayed away. lincoln was asked by his friend john todd stewart what he planned to do after his second term was over. he said that he planned to return to springfield. mrs. lincoln didn't want to. but he was very fond of springfield and wished to return to this city. >> renee is in new castle delaware. you're on american history tv. hi. >> hi. good afternoon. i was calling to ask the gentleman, in the reenactment today, was the casket that was carried, was that lincoln's michae actual casket or was that a replica? >> i'm sorry. i didn't -- >> was that a replica casket or was that the same one that carried president lincoln's body? the one used today. ica. >> that's a replica. yes. >> do you know where that replica came from? where it's stored? >> i do not. >> thank you sir. next call is david.. david is in rochester, new york. hi, david. abou >> hi,t honor to speak to you professor burlingame. can you talk about what happened with robert lincoln i think it was in the 30 or 40 years later when they had to go into the dent tomb and open up the casket, lk a check somethingbo about the president? can you talk about why that was i' taking place, please? with th >> i'm not intimately familiar with that story.the but i do know there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the ld be president and that the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i'm sorry i can't give you more detail about that. >> professor what do you teach i tea at university ofch illinois ham linc springfield? >> i teach a course in the civil war and reconstruction and a seminar on abraham lincoln. >> tom thompson, pennsylvania, please go ahead with your question or comment. >> yes i was wondering if this is the first time there's ever why 1 been a reenactment of lincoln's interment, and if not, why 150 years later to this extent with the recreation of the car and the band with the period instruments, why has there never been one before and why now? >> i'm sorry, i don't know the answer to that. but i do know that the people who have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have i been at itdo for the past six years. it's a good question why this stors wasn't done, say, 50 years ago. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? >> no no. there are no descendents of abraham lincoln. robert todd lincoln had a son, but he died. daughters, but they didn't have offspring. >> kim, pleasant view tennessee. hi, kim. kim? you with us? >> yes, sir. >> we are listening. please go ahead. >> i had the question about if they used the actual coffin the president was in. but also i thought there were towns that they tried to take was a his body several times. so his body was actually moved. as >> yes, yes. the body was moved around insidethere ha the tomb. the tomb is rather large, the area. and there had been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body by some counterfeiters. it was the gang that couldn't shoot straight and it aro failed. but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil any future such attempts. >> michael t burlingame why the route -- the train route that hat wa wass taken to get abraham lincoln from washington back to : springfield? >> the train went from washington back to springfield which recreated more or less the train ride he had taken from springfield to washington in 1861. cincinnati and pittsburgh were omitted and chicago was added on the return trip. and it was undertaken in part to allow the public to express mourning not just for abraham coln, lincoln, because the tremendous outpouring of grief that was accompanying the funeral train 0 was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war many of whom could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buried in unmarked graves or buried in sites far away from the place where they had grown ive in s up. in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they would live in y similar communities. when a family member was dying, you would be present be that person and bid him or her ver farewell and attend they funeral and the like. this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands and thousands of people couldn't do that. and so the train ride was a kindon, at of ka that are tick exercise for which allowed the nation as a whole to engage in mourning not only for the fallen leader but for their fallen loved ones. train that is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin or both. and one of the most striking e things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the train. reminisce sans of people who as children were taken to see the train, and as they wrote about y were it in later years they were more struck by the fact not thats they saw the train itself, but that they saw tears in their parents' eyes which they had are never seen before.s funera find that very moving. >> who were some of the dig tears that attended abraham lincoln's funeral. >> they were as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurney. the bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church the largest church in the country at that time.d and local authorities including his good friends who had worked n with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the poteau mack in 1863. and several other people of that sort. >> but not grant? profess >> no.i juan in georgia. juan, go ahead. >> yes professor burlingame? >> yes. fi >>eld i happen to live in springfield in the early 1940s.king i group up there. i lived west of town on the used t lincoln o frail.ilding just a walk from the capitol building to where in petersburg e. where lincoln's village was. back that day to get -- earn a an badge. we had a well out on the front irst m lawn. i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts in the my country. ir attended the first methodist church in springfield onrd capitol and 5th street. my sunday school teacher was judge logan's grandson. we heard many stories about mr. work lincoln. i don't remember a lot of them. i was about 7 years old.yes. judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. >> right. >> his grandson in atlanta right now.hael i talked b to him not too long ago. >> jud michael burlingame who is this judge logan? >> judge logan was lincoln's law partner, his second law partner. lincoln had three law partners. and his second law partner was steven t. logan.n he wasthe probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very instrumental in teaching lincoln the law and was -- lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln didn't get along very well with his own father. and older men in positions of ly. authority served as surrogate fathers of lincoln. he was one of the most important.public meanwhile, a political ally of n lincoln. they were good members of the wig party together and champions of the republican party. judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge ng of logan.alry there are many people in springfield whose ancestors were close to lincoln. anc this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. i horn in by saying, well, my great grandfather's cousin was lincoln's ambassador to china. >> michael burlingame just ngfiel doing a little bit of math here - probably up through 1920 there were a lot of people living springfield who had actually nyone knowevn abraham lincoln. >> up until that time, yes. >> did anyone ever do oral quite a histories? >>hi yes. there was quite a lot of oral history of lincoln done. one of the great contributions to lincoln studies was an oral ied, history project undertaken by a and his law partner. herndon corresponded with and o interviewed people in indiana, core illinois in kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on newspa lincoln, particularly in his prepresidential years. in subsequent years, newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and ers an interview people who knew ld not lincoln. those interviews are extremely valuable. they can be found in newspapers.phers. they can be found in the field notes and the research notes of a the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln to is an go to brown university in providence rhode island which went t haso an excellent lincoln collection because john hay went to brown and left his papers rviews there. i discovered a whole cache of extremely valuable interviews that had been conducted by hay and also by his fellow secretary in the white house.ces all kinds of new information. so yes, there's an enormous mories treasure-trove and they have to be treated with a certain amounthe mor of caution. people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. mark twain said the older i get, the more vividly i remember they things that never happened.ood if you use things in conjunction with contemporary documents, l they can be extremely revealing. >> you won the book prize in 1996. his "abraham lincoln: a life" o, it won theis 2010 lincoln prize.it w that's about a thousand pages you have in that book? >> it's 2,000 pages.becaus it weighs 9 pounds. so don't drop it on your foot. i recommend because it's so big and clumsy, somewhat awkward to hold i recommend that people a life get it electronic edition. as soon as you download it your device suddenly becomes much lling fr heavier. >> craig islvan calling from pennsylvania. hi, craig. >> hello.uestion professor, my question has to do with the reenact tors actually carrying the dove finish. i assume they represented the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the only y from ones who actually carried the coffin of president lincoln all and n the way from washington to springfield. and in springfield. and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the ve cor so-called palps bearers and the veteran reserve corps. i understand they received a medal of honor in guarding and escorting the body of president d perf lincoln. >> theat veteran reseven corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i didn't know the story about the medal of honor winner. that's a remarkable fact. glad to learn it.or mic >> mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon to you. you're on with professor michaelcaller burlingame a:t oak ridge cemetery was a in springfield illinois. >> there was aed l caller earlier have c who asked about what happened later in the day. i came across a quote in a book ba i have called 20 days. and it was published in -- yes. and it says, later that day back in springfield, the crowd went to stand inof front of the nade t governor's mansion and listen tohee the band of the st. louis regimen who had come to march.d in spr it was the first quick time day happy music was heard in uching springfield in almost three s weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. >> that's a touching story.lled i thank you. >> i pulled o it off myichelle f. i had it in my lap today. it's been nice. >> it is a remarkable book. and the huge collection of materials that they over the e of years compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. we ha one of the best image collections of lincoln in the of it, country. >> we have to been live in springfield for several hours today. if you missed any of it and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time everything that we've the shown you today live will reair on american history tv. cspan3 on the weekends. lisa in california. hi lisa. >> hello. >> please go ahead, ma'am. >> hello. >> i just wanted to know washat was lincoln's favorite food? know. >> what made you curious about th that lisa? >> i don't know.erything i mean they're talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat?that que >> all right. let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. >> a friend of mine, his favorite food was chicken and ok on mashed potatoes and strawberry short cake. i have a friend who's written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he emphasizes that as lincoln's favorite meal. he was faymously not a foodie. gou they said he was a man who was hat not much of a connoisseur gourmet. the that he ate what was put before s fell him withoutow complaining. one he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers ut lin would go around from one county to the next. all the other lawyers would complain about their food. but lincoln wouldn't. one day even his legendary patience wore then. he said to the host, sir, if this after-dinner beverage is coffee would you please bring me tea. and if this is tea, would you please bring me coffee. how's that for a gentle way to register a complaint. >> mike in new jersey. >> hi, fellas. you mentioned before that there alive was no direct descendants of is tom abraham lincoln alive, lincoln'sind mother, her sister is tom hank's the actors great, great, great, great grandmother. >> right. t so there isom a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to gran lincoln's mother's son.children no descendent of lincoln himself. heet didn't have grandchildren whoi wa then also had children of their own. >> margaret, hi, margaret. >> hi. i was wondering if lincoln is s told buried in mspringfield, illinois they always tell me he was ed? buried in a statute of lincoln in washington d.c. so where is he originally lin buried? >> he was buriedmori out here.tribute but of course the lincoln memorial, the magnificent lincoln memorial in the mall in washington is a great tribute to him, but he's not buried there.urse it >> go ahead, sir. >> i was going to say, of course it's a magnificent tribute to lo lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things is face not just the magnificent statute. but also as you look at that statute, if you gaze to the right -- you see -- whoa!g? >> i take it something went ew flying out there, huh? ok? >> a tent just blew over.ingame: is everybody okay? all right. >> sounds a little windy out when you there.o to the okay. >> it's a little alarming. anyway when you go to the lincoln memorial, you see also e -- the second inaugural address, the text is on the right-hand . wall and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. s >> you can try social media media @cspanhistory is american history's twitter address. or you can join the conversation on facebook. facebook.com/cspanhistory.om theresa, lebanon indiana. >> hello. b. >> you had a question from a caller asking about the moemt of lincoln's body within his tomb. >> right. >> and years ago when i was a very small child, nine or ten interv years old,ie i read a story in a magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who ensu had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure that it was indeed him in the coffin. >> right. >> m and i remember -- i remember the story well because it just -- it freaked me out terribly because heythi described in detail the condition of his why skin, the condition of his clothing and everything else. and he you know, told the story about why he was there. and i -- that story stayed with me forever until a few years agohe when i googled the story again. the man i think passed away in the '80s or '90s or something. he was very young. many ru they were moving him to make sure that the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his bodyagaz being stolen. that was what i remember readingto t from that magazine. >> well and speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend an who was --d a woman who was reading to her 4-year-old son a the st book about lincoln a few years back. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. so he turned to his mother and eater said, do i have the story right, the president went to the theater and he was watching the play and then he got shot while said, he was watching the play, but he didn't die until the next ught abo morning. and his mother said, that's right son.t you so the little boy thought about that, thought about that.st: then he said, well at least he got to - see the end of the play. >> up next -- >> this is a true story. >> john in lake city, florida. john, you're on american history tv. >> good afternoon and thank you ve one for what you're doing. i have two questions -- or one question and one -- but first is regarding the myth tholgy behindid president lincoln, i do not believe he actually knew that term, that it was a term invented by the media after his death. and secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a own wh tyranter when in reality, my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution, his adversary did the same. yet, i see authors continually downgrading this man. i just don't understand why that is. >> well, there are pranks and lunaticlo fringe in all fields. i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking things about i lincoln during the civil war, the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than with france in 1798 when they passed the acts which triedparty. to crush the newly emergent jefr season january party. then world war one when the espionage acts were passed. world war ii when 120,000 rial, japanese americans, many of them citizens of the united states were incarcerated with new due process and the like. the story is how little rties, particularly considering that b it how i was a war, it was a very seriouscivil civil war, domestic war spying ii and. espionage and sabotage was much more prominent than it he could have been in world war one and world war ii. the main complaint is that he e priv suspended the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus. it says it may be suspended in wri times of domestic rebellion and foreign invasion. it said, the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in p times of domestic uthori rebellion and foreign invasion. it was pretty clear that the president had that authority if congress didn't specifically forbid him from doing so. so it's mostly a story by delorenzo and his ilk. >> we were showing the entrance t to the tomb there with the iron doors and oak ridge up above it. >> yes. >> was that built specifically or eve forr abraham lincoln and what do you see when you go through those iron doors? >> well, i've never been fo through, so i can't say for certain. i'm not sure that it was created just for him. sorry to say. isit >> you've neveror been through inga thosmee: doors, huh? >> right. >> are visitors allowed to go -- >> no. >> the tomb itself is entered p the from a very different angle.st: different elevation. >> oh, up the stairs? >> up the stairs, right. >> okay.ofessor. mike in columbus ohio -- yes, e tomb sir, go ahead, professor. >> i was just going to stay that the tomb and the monument above the tomb is really kwiek striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the erection of the monument was nument mrs. lincoln insisted not only that her husband be buried here but that the monument honoring his memory be buried by the tomb. she didn't havethe the right to insist on where the monument would be placed. but she was a rather imperious woman and she got her way. >> mike, ohio, go ahead, mike. good >> yeah, professor, i just g with wanted to ask you was abraham im lincoln a good lawyer? did he get along with the news media in and has history made him bigger than he really was?s a >> he was a good lawyer. he wasn't a great lawyer. but he was a good pro vin shall lawyer. very capable.vered. and with the news media, he got along very well. this is something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries, two young men in their 20s and their assistant, write for newspaperslicies a write defenses of the a administration explanations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york missouri and elsewhere. and so he -- he wanted to have the newspapers cover him lic favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate to the public that was very effective was to write public letters to newspaper editors or cri toti critics and they would get reprinted widely in his -- in newspapers of the day. it was in lieu of press e conferences, these were techniques that lincoln used to help cultivate the press.i don' has history made him bigger than he deserves?figure i don't think so.n as time goes by we'll become toiate t appreciate himod as a larger figure than even we appreciate my m today. >> james tweets in that my t motherha tells me she has an are - ancestor who is in lincoln's funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? >> you can write to the abraham lincoln presidential library here in springfield. there's a reference desk. they would be willing and eager to help you. >> garrett is calling in from l hansex come air force base. >> it's near lexington. >> in kentucky sm. >> no, massachusetts. >> thank you, sir. go ahead.essor, >> sir t professor, thank you for m the book. >> oh, well thank you. >> my question is, since this isout what about the funeral the program is about i had a question about additio what would lincoln have done if ion, he were still alive during that time? an additional question do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? >> thank you, garrett. >> you don't have to pay. and the question of -- the question you posed is one that to an historians havesw tried to answer for many years. that is what would have happened if lincoln had lived. when i was a student in school, high school, this was just wo slightly after the second pun ik war, i was taught that lincoln would have been crucified by congress just the way his successor andrew johnson was. that lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during sayin the war. he offered a set of peace terms to the south if you lay down your arms and accept the abolition of slavery, there member won't be any punishment, except fo.r the highest ranking members andre of the confederate military and igorou civilian government. a then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that. congress impeached him and he many came withinye one vote of being ln. removed from office. the argument that was prevalent his when i was a student, was that that is what would have happened to lincoln. most historians don't agree with that now. they say what lincoln was doing uthern by offering a set of peace terms was encouraging southerners to throw in the towel. suffered e egregious defeats. and no reasonable southerner could believe they would win the war on the ground. m but that motive no longer existed once robert e. lee sur rended on april 9th. two days later, lincoln gave a hat speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote. for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage at least for those veterans of the union army and for the very intelligent by which we assume he meant the literate. and frederick douglas, who was dent in the audience that day heard the president give that speech. and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. known bu tt frederick douglas said later, i should have known and we should have known that that the sc was aho terribly important speech sert a because abraham lincoln learned his statesmanship in the school of rail splitting. having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should have known that that's what lincoln was doing that day. you could count on him to drive home the thick edge of the ord wedge. johnp. wilkes booth turned to his colleagues and said that means nand i' word citizenship. by god that's the last speech he's ever going to give i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln.g not because he supported the 13th amendment but because he called for black voting rights. therefore i think it's appropriate for usarty to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king or andrew cheney or ch anyam of those people who were murdered in the 1960s as they championed the civil rights revolution. >> we've only got four minutes left with our guest. ng >> theokay. ou >> ifr you're interested in making comments or joining this conversation, if you go to our facebook page quite a lively conversation going on there. facebook.com/cspanhistory. robert in tennessee, you're on robert. >> southern generals, the southern congress was able to goion. to lincoln's funeral? >> i'm sorry.ncoln' >' southern representation at abraham lincoln's funeral any of the southern generals? >> no. there were nine generals from army, virginia who n served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army no. >> did robert e. lee have any d reaction? but to the death of abraham -- >> i'm sure he did. i can't tell you what it was offana. the top of my head.caller i'm sorry. >> brian in indiana, hi brian. bc >> professor, l a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of libr visiting the abear lincoln's presidential library as well as the tomb. here's my question.tifact are most of abe lincoln's game: artifactwes there at the library and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country?ion >> well, there are many artifacts here. there's a huge kwex of documentsrs. related to lincoln's life particularly his prepresidential i spe life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. i spent many many summers here.the it's an invaluable collection of documents and newspapers and archiveal term. the library of congress has a huge collection. and there's a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. the and many of those wound up in the nationalco archives and they're cubic acres of papers. the crew based here
for hundreds of thousands of americans. there's a certainry poetry if you want to call it that and closuren to lincoln coming down these cks tracks toto this place in his coffin because, as he came he cir went through the circuit that he had ridden -- for 23 years he'd ridden through the prairiesut b cut by these tracks. and he visits all these towns.isited so all these towns were filled with his friends. ret so this was a return for him in a very touching way.y. and for -- he was returned on the same trains -- on the same tracks that he'd been forever. i bought ai book about the fune lincoln funeral and i was going o star to startt reading it. and i just saved it.chance just by chance i was coming -- these are the same tracks we're on now. passenger trains.rain so i'mwi on an amtrak train with this book on a really gray rainy day back in january. with this book about the in ja funeral. i wasan amazed how moved i was to e g be going down these same tracks that carried lincoln's body 150 earli years earlier. what the funeral represents is esents the mourning of this nation for all the lives that were lost ande all the sacrifices that were made to save the union and end slavery. hour american history tv and prime time continues this week with programs from our real re america series taking viewers th throughro the 20th century with films on public affairs. first, the o films the true glory. then the baltimore plan on race and poverty in baltimore.that, after that former president t johnson speaks about the vietnam war and u.s. policy in the . region. and later, the 1970 nasa film on apollo 13 profiles the crew's follo dangerous journey home followingion. an oxygen tank education ploex.tern it all begins at 8:00 eastern friday here on cspan3.s this sunday night at 8:00 eastern on first ladies, influence and image. we'll look into the personal lives of three first ladies sarah sarah polk margaret taylor and abigai abigail fill more. sarah polk had a very strong belief in politics. her margaret taylor was opposed to margar her ethusband's nomination for president and taylor enjoyed esiden telling people he was praying for his opponent to win. abigail fill more was the first rst presidential wife to have a profession. sarahlo r,polk, this sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on cspan's t original series, first ladies, nd p examining the public and private lives and their influence on then presidency.le sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on cspan3. cspan's new book, first ladies presidential his tore kbrans on the lives of 45 iconic american a women. it's available as a hard cover or e-book through your favorite bookstore or online book seller. we'll take you now to oak ridge cemetery in springfield, illinois for the 150th commemoration ceremony of president abraham lincoln's ab funeral. we'll see a procession and ceremony reenactment.ian then michael burlingame talks about the legacy of abraham lincoln and reflects on the ceremony in springfield. this is three hours and 20 minutes. skpnchts you're watching american history tv on cspan3. you're looking at now a live picture from oak ridge cemetery in springfield, illinois for thepresiden 150th anniversary of president abraham lincoln's funeral.springfi richard hart joining us from theyour cemetery. you ares a springfield resident and an author. your book is" lincoln springfield, the funeral of abraham lincoln."s goin tell us what we're going to see today, what's going to happen there behind you and all around you this afternoon. >> well, thank you.reenactm well today, you're going to see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 150 years ago. and it started on the square downtown and it will take is on probably a halfth hour for the procession to reach oak ridge be a cemetery on the north side of springfield springfield. that procession will be a there wi reconstruction or reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. so there will be a number of divisions with reenactors in those divisions. you'll actually see a replication of the funeral herselieve yo that was put together by a local funeral home. i believe you're going to see a horse which would have been abrahamle lincoln's horse bob led by an african-american henry brown coming into the cemetery. and then in back of me is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. and it is there that lincoln's aced body as well as his son, willie, were placed at the time of the n lincoln funeral. >> mr. hart, why was president lincoln buried in springfield illinois? >> well, this was his home for 24 years before he went to washington d.c. and only a short time before he left springfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. and mary and abraham lincoln were present on the day that the cemetery was dedicated and all on of the speeches were made. and the story is that on the way home abraham lincoln said to mary that this is where i'd likeoln. to be buried. >> you mention mary todd lincolneave w and yetas she didn't attend the funeral in spring field. she didn't leave washington d.c.ha andt? travel with the train up to springfield. why is that? >> well, mary todd lincoln's a lifeny was one that -- she had to l face many, many tragedies. and this was perhaps the greatest of all. her husband, being assassinated she wa next tos her. and she was rightfully devastated by that. and was just not emotionally capable of making that trip back to springfield. her son, robert todd lincoln was there with her. and he did come to springfield >> i for thf e funeral. >> we see if you look on your screen, some of the reenactors.ose you might have seen some of those tents. who are those folks in the tents and how long have they been out ere there camped out? >> well i think some of them had been here since last wednesday and perhaps that's when they fist came. but thursday night when i was out here we came out after dinner and it was just a lot scen of -- a lot of the tents were up at that time. as i say, it was a beautiful scene. there was a full moon that e night -- i don't know if it was full but it was beautiful. and the oak ridge cemetery gate which was the original gate into the cemetery was lit up. and and then across the road in lincoln park were the tents withor the fires that they had lit for the evening. even>> we are to an expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's numeral. abraham lincoln died here in washington on april 15. his funeral on may 4 in springfield, illinois. what happened in the intervening time? what was going on in a couple of weeks back in 1865? those days during the time of his assassination in return and burial in springfield are kind of somewhat the subject of the book i have here, it was still with a lot of distress to the nation as to what was occurring. as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house, it was autopsied and involved. -- and him bald -- there were viewings there and it was taken to the train station and laced in a cattle car owned one of the railroads, a car for the director of that railroad. the funeral train left washington dc and had a number of people on the train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. the train made a very long long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city. the story is teddy roosevelt watched the procession from one of the windows. the train supposedly would not exceed 30 miles an hour. all of the tracks were cleared for this train and there was a lead train that went before it to make sure the tracks were clear. it eventually ended up in chicago and there was an enormous funeral in chicago lasting a couple of days with the viewing of the body at the courthouse. then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4. at every crossing in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered, often with bonfires and in many instances there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks . they were decorated with evergreens and flowers, even in the middle of the night, the review hundreds of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers today we have a couple of more things we will show folks. we going to look at the train station in springfield and have more about president lincoln's train. how may people came to springfield in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? >> that is an amazing question. the number is not certain that springfield at that time had a population of about 15,000 people. the estimate is between 75000 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were special trains from many of the midwestern cities that came into springfield and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes and remarkably, it was the first time a pullman train had been used and it was a sleeping car. because of that use during the lincoln funeral, it gained acceptance by the railroads as another aspect of the passenger train. that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> we're looking at live pictures rum springfield illinois. a reenactment today of the funeral of abraham lincoln. we see some of the folks dressed up, the reenactors in costume. are these local reenactors or do people come from all over the country to participate in this event marks -- in this event? >> that's a wonderful question. i was out here two days ago and a couple from orlando, florida were here. they were dressed in. costumes that were absolutely spectacular. -- they were dressed in. costumes -- i offered to take their pictures together. that's how i got to have this conversation with them and they had come for this event from orlando florida. she gave me this funeral badge -- i don't know if you can see that are not. she made it to hand out to people in springfield. i've met a number of actors from midwestern states, i met a german from lancaster pennsylvania and his reenactment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military got on it -- his military gone on a trailer. there is a subculture of reenactors in the united states. they have been here and many of the people you see in costumes i think are from out of town. many are from springfield, but it is hard to tell how to divide where they are from. it is a pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is you have lived in springfield for 47 years, most of your life. what is the mood of the springfield community about this reenactment? are people excited to host this event? >> it is remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several days perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been at least 10 different band concert in the last two days. the churches around springfield and these band concerts are reenactors. they come from all over the united states. there was a symphony last evening -- the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church and it was packed. at the edwards home, they are having a reenactment tea. it's a remarkable participation by the entire community for this event. i think everybody recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life and they just want to be a part of that, too honor him and comresident abraham lincoln's funeral 150 years ago this weekend. with us at the cemetery, you can see richard hart, the springfield resident and author. we are going to let you have a chance to ask questions or weigh in with your thoughts on this event. our phone lines for you on the east or central time zone. one for those of you in the mountain or pacific time zones. you get a chance to ask a question if you like. i'm going to ask one now. the procession we are waiting to make its way up to the cemetery, and the reenactment of the actual speeches and funeral ceremony itself, are those historically accurate? will they be accurate representations of what took place 150 years ago? >> i believe so. i have seen the program and compared it richard hart: i believe so, very much exactly the same. that will be very exciting to see that. >> who were some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's general 150 years ago and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at abraham lincoln's funeral? richard: there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the prominent minister in the united states at that time. he came and he delivered the primary eulogy for abraham lincoln. in addition to that, there were photographers that came from philadelphia chicago -- there were reporters, believe it or not, that came from the newspapers, the new york papers, the washington a purse and -- the washington papers, one person who came that was a young reported -- a young reporter at the time formed the associated press. many of the photographs these photographers took here in springfield are still in existence and there is actually an exhibit in springfield that has all of those photographs. >> after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson became president, is that right? richard: yes. >> did he attend the funeral? richard: no. >> why not? richard: i think you have to remember that in addition to this numeral transpiring in a time of 90 days in american history, you had congress passing the 13th amendment freeing the slaves, it had to be approved by the states and i was not done until december of that year. you had lincoln delivering his second inaugural address, which is a masterpiece and then you have lincoln delivering a speech saying he believed certain black men should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e lee surrendering to grant and bringing about the closing of the civil war and the country was euphoric after that. been within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated and everybody went into extreme morning. -- extreme mourning. because of that, there was a lot of uncertainty about the government and what was going to happen. a lot of people just stayed in washington. there was also the search for john wilkes booth and any conspirators. that took the front page of many newspapers, so there were a variety of things occurring and the people who came to springfield, and they were numerous from out of springfield the successor to lincoln did not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 on the east coast, 2:00 at your time, let's take our first caller. caller: i just have a general question. host: no angela. i'm sorry. we are going to work on our own call and as we try to get that could together, let me ask another question. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we are seeing? are these accurate costumes these reenactors are wearing? richard: absolutely. they are very accurate. the lady walking toward us -- what i think you have the screen before, that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. one year ago that did not exist. where we are sitting his afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bramble. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate. that was re-created this year based upon photographs from the time. it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. it was dedicated in december of last year and is through those gates the procession will come. it was done, quite frankly because of this event today, but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. it connects to lincoln park, which is immediately to the east and so it will become part of this total neighborhood and the people of the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. what you are looking at now is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see the reenactor 10 -- reenactor tents and reenactors there. ar absolutely accurate and they are fanatic about every aspect of their costumes, the tenants their flags, the food they eat the betting they have, everything is a re-creation of the time they represent. that is what i was saying the other evening when we came out here -- it was absolutely beautiful, the white tents, they had fires going, it was really something. you can see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. >> we're going to try one more time with the phone calls. we're going to see if we can get bob from bob, go ahead, you are on c-span three. caller: i understand that robert lincoln was at the final internment of abraham lincoln read is he buried there you go -- buried there? host: yes, the children are buried there except for robert. robert todd lincoln, by all accounts wished to be buried there. he was survived by his wife and she thought he deserved his own separate identity and monument. he is buried in washington dc it is very interesting. before he died he was brought back to the united states and was actually there read with his grandfather abraham. tom was taken out of this cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his fall -- with his father. robert todd lincoln is not varied here all of the other family members are. robert todd is buried in washington dc. host: we will go to boise, idaho. you are on. caller: good afternoon. i have another question about robert todd lincoln, how did he get to the cemetery? i read somewhere he was staying a couple of days in washington with his mother and let his father take care of him while he headed out the internment. richard: you are absolutely correct. this is one of the very interesting things i found when i was doing the research for the book. the robert todd lincoln did not intend to come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, the supreme court justice and who had been the judge of the circuit here in illinois, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of his letters and documents, took them with him back to bloomington. but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting he sent a telegram to robert todd lincoln. i will paraphrase it, but it basically said robert, it is imperative you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends they said that if you do not that you would regret it for the rest of your life area you should make preparations to come immediately. robert got on the train and did to springfield. he stayed here's -- stayed here for several days. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where it eventually the monument would be constructed. a perhaps you will be able to see that later on. host: the reenactment of president abraham lincoln's funeral, making some rule that some room for your phone calls. if you're out in the mountain or pacific time zone's -- we will go to idaho with jeff. go on ahead, you are on with our guest. caller: i was born and raised 30 miles from there. in a town called taylorville. my question is what, if any role did his former law partner play in the funeral? richard: that is a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's long -- lincoln's law partner at the time -- there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. he played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, when i was doing this research, that he did not play a larger part. some of the other townsfolk played a much larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what is to be done in planning the funeral. i don't know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield he was to be buried. the local people all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. it was a private residence on a hill. these men in the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built between the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln did not want that to occur, and she threatened to remove him from spring field or not allow him be carried to spring field if that was done. a she insisted he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. her wishes one out. host: we will take a call from florida. terry, go ahead. you are on the air. caller: i would like to thank c-span3 for this program. my question is i understand after he was placed in the two that there was threats to steal the body or attempts to steal the body. i was told he had been moved out of there and placed elsewhere until the possible threats were taking care of. and that he was later reinterred back in. i understand for a period of time the body may not have been there. i would like to find out how accurate that is. richard: that's very interesting. we are getting far past the time of the actual funeral. to recount, where he was initially placed was a receiving fault. and that receiving vault was for general use, when people could not be buried immediately. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the side of this hill. they were moved into that involved in december of 1865. there was a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site on the top of the hill. it was there they built the first monument. you are seeing it now on the screen. this is where lincoln was buried today. that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone. after it was redone this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. as far as the people who were involved, they failed to do it. because of that threat or possibility of lincoln's body being stolen, the final internment was that a whole was dug, his hottie was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. he now lies in that tomb in back of me. but he is under many feet of concrete. you should go and ask about the number of times lincoln was exhumed and reburied. there may have been a period where people were in the tomb, looking at what they thought to be the burying site of lincoln when he was not in that actual site. host: we will go up the road. you are on c-span. caller: high. in i was sitting here listening watching the events on tv and everything. i can't remember if he was basically in the war the military, or something. was there any thought of him being buried at arlington national cemetery? i was wondering about that. richard: as far as his military record, he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830's. as commander in chief he would be entitled to be buried in arlington. i don't know of any suggestion that he was and i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk about the possibility of burying him in the capital building in the vault. there had been plans for george washington. his body did stay in the capital. the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c. and perhaps chicago. i think it was part of the back and forth between mary, lincoln and springfield. i believe at some point she said we will just take him to chicago and bury him there. that is a very good question. that was not considered. host: we are going to get one more call in right now. it is bobby or richard hart. acaller: my mother is at oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. i did get to see the vault, which was open at that time. i did see the old fault and i wonder if you are going to talk about it. you started talking about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary probably on c-span, about how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob his body and take it away. where he is now is beautiful. my mother is there. it was quite an interesting. i wonder what you can tell us about that. richard: are you asking about the receiving vault? caller: it is low to the ground. i remember picturing it in my mind. was that what they called it the receiving vault? richard: it is right in back of me. i'm sitting opposite the receiving fault -- the receiving vault. that is what i was talking about earlier. can you see the receiving vault? there is an angle shot i believe. host: we can see it. richard: that is the vault. that was built way in advance of lincoln's death. it was used basically to hold bodies until the ground might thought and they can dig a grave. hethey would put them in that receiving vault. it is almost fortuitous that it was there and lincoln's body was brought there together with willies, his little son who died in washington. they were moved into the vault. further up on the hill you will see the actual monument that is there today. that was built in later years. as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was either in the receiving fault or the bolts on the hill. it was later on. i claim no expertise in that area of history. asthere are some good books you might look into on the attempts to steal his body. host: a beautiful afternoon in springfield illinois. the oak ridge cemetery. a live reenactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln. this is the 150th anniversary of that event. we are going to re-create the funeral here for you on c-span3. our guest is richard hart, sharing his expertise on the subject. as we wait for the folks dressed up in the funeral procession and period costumes, let's take you now to the town of -- where david cloak of cloak construction has been building a replica of the train car david kloke: he never rode in this car. he did not want to because there were soldiers dying everywhere, and he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this the day he died, april 15. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria virginia, as a filler job to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that because with all the war effort, i would have thought they would have been busy. but they managed to build this car. they are not sure who ordered the car. they think stanton did, the secretary of war. after his death, they converted it to the funeral car to haul his body back to springfield. >> what happened to the original train after the funeral in 1865? david kloke: union pacific owned it. dr. rant used it as a business card. they owned it for a while and then sold it to a business in colorado. the railroad bought it and sold it to some man that took it on tour. it was in st. louis, i believe a man had thought it and was going to take it to minnesota and build a building to put it in. it was on the side in minneapolis and kids started a prairie fire and it got burned in minneapolis in 1911. this was a fancy car for the time. it would have been like the air force one of its day. as you can see, it is well decorated. it will be a close representation, as close as we can get. we think we are about 95% accurate. we have had a lot of volunteers to take care of the woodwork and upholstery. three guys showed up to the upholstery work at the right time. everybody seems to come right when we need them. i built two. -- period locomotives from scratch. i have always kind of wanted to build a car. what better car to build that an historic car? the lincoln funeral car, this was the only one made like this. it was the only one made by the government or owned by the government. they always leased their cars. i talked to friends in california about building a car. we kicked it around and decided to build the lincoln funeral car because it was an historic car. it will go on and be an educational tool. a lot of people get to see this car and see what it was like in 1864, what the railroad cars looked like. they were pretty nice, as you can see. >> how long have you been working on this project? david: altogether, five years. about three. we were talking about it last night. when we lay the floorboards after the frame was built, it was last march, so i think we have done pretty well. this would have been a pilot room at one time. this is where willie's coppin was -- coffin was. willie was on this end and mr. lincoln was on the other end. we will decorate that for the funeral. the best of the car we will leave as it would have been before the funeral, as it was decorated for him. we don't have pictures of inside the car, but we have a lot of descriptions. that is also from alexandria virginia. somebody had the foresight to interview people who worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the 1920's. >> what was the central room? david: that would have been the central room -- stateroom, his bedroom,. there is not a lot of description, but we decorated it of the period. >> what are some of pieces -- the pieces in the room? david: we put in a bed that pis period. a lady who is a reenactor bought the furniture and had it be done. we don't know if it is exactly right. it is period furniture, we know that. what was in here was lost to history. >> the third room will be designed as his funeral room. his coffin will be there with two chairs which came off a slavery plantation. they were there to guard the coffin. we will have them set up on either side. we will also have the black rate drape -- black crate draped on the curtains. the carpet the exact same company that made the carpet for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it is made out of wool. it is an 18th-century carpeting that was made on a loom. they had to hand stitched some of the fabric together. we went with this, because in the descriptions -- we want with this color because in the descriptions, they talked about crimson rosettes and green leather. that is how we came up with this. david: there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all 26 states, even the southern states. mr. lincoln was all about the union, so he pick -- we figured he would want all of them. lamps we had made by a fellow in california. i met him last july. he makes lamps for the movie industry. we created what we think the lamps would like from the descriptions and pictures we have. the etching on the windows we knew that from the original window the guy in minneapolis has. so we were able to get that etching. that is correct. we had a guy in tucson that is probably the foremost expert on this car. he has built several models. he is the technical advisor. he does not have a lot of detail on the inside, but on the outside he was instrumental in getting the color. there are several of the windows that survived. there is a man in minnesota. they took it to a lab and had a pain analysis done, so we know the color is correct. we knew the inside was this kind of white off-white, they call it zinc white in the book. that is an old terminology. we have a lot of pictures of the outside of the car. there are quite a few pictures of the outside, so we think we nailed the bunting. there is supposed to be more striping on the car but our funding has been low for that. goldleaf is not chief. -- not cheap. >> we have a full railing on this end with the door which was handmade by a blacksmith, which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full set railing because that is the end they used to roll the coffin in out of the doorway. david: the trucks are brought up to modern specifications. they are all steel frame. back in the day, they would have been woodframe. they would have had a dual frame gauge that would have derailed every time they went through a switch. that was not a good idea and they fell out of favor quickly. after the war, they built everything to standard gauge which was mr. lincoln's idea. he signed a rule that the railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to tie the east and west together. he wanted to tie california to the union. he signed the transcontinental railroad act also, so he did a lot of things for this country that people do not realize. >> the real significance is we really just want to re-create history. it is a once-in-a-lifetime project. we want to educate people, especially the youngest generation on how people traveled back then. lincoln was a magnificent man. he had a great vision when he decided to sign the railroad act, and he brought the central and union pacific together so we had railroad tracks across the country. that is what made our country grow. that is what made america america, so lincoln had a wonderful vision. we are honored to salute lincoln because it is the 100 years anniversary. we are passionate about the project and lincoln himself. it was lincoln who inspired dave to build the leviathan, a locomotive engine. he realized the 150th anniversary was around the corner. he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make it happen for the 150th anniversary. host: live again from springfield, illinois, on american history tv on cspan3. the reenactment, 150 years later, of abraham lincoln's funeral. we have been waiting for the reenactors. we are told some thousand or so participating in events today, making their way up this road toward the cemetery. with us all afternoon has been our guest, springfield resident, lawyer author, richard hart, who is there. i see you are wearing your black ribbon on your suit lapel. what is that and is that historically accurate? richard: i don't know if it is historically accurate. the i told her i would wear it today. people here had these ribbons. there were a number of these ribbons made. some people have them and they are on exhibit in some of the museums. host: you can see the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us what you were seeing. richard: can you hear the bell ringing? that's the bell from the old tower here in the cemetery. it is being wrong to announce the entrance of the procession into oak ridge cemetery. one of the first divisions marching in full uniform. they are coming in really slowly. i lost it. i lost the hook up. host: we will let you find the hook up. as we do that we watch this procession very solemnly. let's watch and listen here on c-span3. >> it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking very slowly. i don't know who the lady is in front here, but she certainly is not in proper military gear. you can see their instruments and they are of the period and then directly in back of them is one of the regiment. they are walking down what is known as 1st street and it's somewhat of a hill that will come down into the valley where we sit, and then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier, which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. there we see the gate, and now it's being opened. across through the gate you can see some of the tents of the reenactors. s comment for a citizen or was this very unusual and very unique to abraham lincoln? richard: i think the victorian customs were elaborate. this was the ultimate funeral. in victorian funerals it was the ultimate. it was just the history of mankind. i don't know how many millions of people came back to springfield. there were probably 100,000 visitors or the funeral. host: with those visitors have lined this route? would they have been watching this procession and all that? richard: they would have and they would have been in this valley where i am sitting across from the vault. they were divided into divisions, the people who marched into this procession. it was by their military unit. there were clergy divisions. there were lawyer divisions. it just went on and on. the official order of the procession is very interesting to read as far as all of the different institutions and military groups. >> we saw some of the military reenactors. was that a common custom, a form of respect that the military would do an event like this? >> i believe so. they are now entering the gate. they are now just coming through the gate. it's just the drum i believe. i don't believe there playing any instruments. host: let's watch and listen to them. a live coverage of this 150th anniversary. richard: this is the hearse that you see now. host: what are those things on top of the hearse? richard: this was loaned to the city of springfield for this funeral by jesse are not, i funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses. it was reconstructed. great detail and great accuracy. they have done an absolutely outstanding job of detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes on the hearse. i believe some of these horses were from the amish, around illinois. they have these workhorses. they leased them out for this occasion. the first part of the procession is approaching the receiving vault. you may not perhaps here the drumbeat. host: can you tell us a little bit about who the marshall in chief was historically and why he was the major general why was he the marshall in chief. >> i had lunch today with a lincoln scholar. i asked him that a very question because i did not know. he said he did not know either. he had a very interesting career in the united states military, both up and down. had been both successful and lost several battles. but he was in charge of this to the military aspects of it and he was in charge of this procession. he was very fond of the women. that is how the name got attached to certain aspects. now you are seeing the beautiful hearse. absolutely gorgeous. and the military -- again, drums beating. a very slow drumbeat. you can see the instruments. you are looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gate. host: that is a re-creation of the coffin of abraham lincoln. is there something specially made for the president? richard: it was a group of people with an amazing amount of research for this occasion. it has been on this display. they have done a wonderful job. here comes the reverend henry brown with the horse of abraham lincoln. he was an underground railroad conductor, he worked for the lincolns. he was living in quincy and came in springfield to lead lincolns horse in the funeral. and you can see that. that is very moving. the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. you can see the pallbearers lined up in back, walking up with the hearse. many of those are descendents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart his great-great-grandfather was taught stewart, who was a first law partner of abraham lincoln. he is in the procession today. now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault. it has become very quiet. you can see the pallbearers walking in with the white sash. the hearse is now approaching a receiving vault. host: what division is this that would be accompanying the hearst most closely that we are watching? >> there were many divisions many of them came from camp butler which was a union camp just east of springfield. many of these were units. the iron brigade, they are pulling the hearse off to the side. host: there you see the ostrich plumes. was that a common symbol of mourning in the victorian era? richard: i don't think anything approached this carriage. this carriage was probably an ultimate example of victorian funeral carriages. host: at the time 150 years ago were there for an ignorant terry's present as well is there in springfield? were foreign dignitaries present? richard: my book lists all of the various people who were here. probably 20 generals from the civil war. davis, who was a supreme court justice, there were many people. there were a number of dignitaries. a number of dignitaries came within the weeks after their burial. host: if anyone outside of the united states was able to arrive in spring field, president lincoln dying april 15, his funeral on may 4. richard: i'm not aware of any kind of diplomatic foreign representatives or any europeans that may have come before the funeral. at the end of the funeral procession in the original order proceedings, it was the colored people and others. as this came in to oak ridge cemetery on the north side of springfield, there were assembled approximately 10,000 americans to pay respects. host: we are told the first division was head up by the marshall in chief along with the brigadier general. second division was a military not assigned to the you would -- to the unit. the third division had the pallbearers. the congressional delegation and the governors. of fifth division as local government. similar organizations. delegations from universities and colleges. local fire companies. and then the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up 150 years ago. i would assume they are re-creating that to some extent. richard: the original procession of 100 50 years ago was much larger than what we have seen today. host: you can see some of the fire company there in period costumes. richard: there is a great photograph in downtown springfield right before they left on the procession. an absolutely wonderful photograph. it's interesting, you see the sash on that gentleman. different sashes had different meanings. the color would mean something or the way they are trained would mean something. that is a way of identifying. many of the people have the funeral medallion on, as i have had on my coat this afternoon. none of them wear black. do you know why that is? at that time only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. you were not supposed to dress in black if you are not a member of the family. ashost: i see that applied more to the ladies than the gentleman. that would have been there every day where. richard: exactly. ishost: we are watching with richard hart in spring field illinois, the reenactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln 150 years ago. when the procession has ended, i was just going to ask when the procession has got themselves all the way in then it would be a reenactment of the ceremony, including the oratory. and we are going to bring that to our viewers as well. let's watch the soldiers move in the coffin. >> you see the umbrellas there because the mass of the photographers there, just like today, in the heat of the day. so again, a live picture there on your screen from springfield illinois. it's the re-creation of the funeral that took place some 150 years ago. the uniforms of the union army, hearing the voice as well of richard hart, an expert on the subject, and a springfield resident, expert on the subject of abraham lincoln. what is your book called richard? richard: the funeral of abraham lincoln, 1865. >> how long did it take you to research all of this for that book and to put that together? how long have you been interested in this particular event in the history of abraham lincoln? richard: i collected photographs from 19th century springfield are number of time. i had a number of photographs from the funeral in 1865. i knew this funeral was coming up. i thought it was a boring topic but it is absolutely fascinating. the whole story from the time of the assassination to the time of the burial. it is an incredible story. it took me about three years. host: the event capturing the imagination of others. are these reenactors and the other people in period costumes, are they at their own expense? they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? richard: yes, it is. it can not become very expensive but the military equipment, guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for a military person, they buy. there are events where they go in there will be a huge place to buy things as -- and buy things. it can become a very expensive hobby. there is great camaraderie among the participants. you see us perform during the day but our camps at night -- it is like las vegas. they say they have a lot of fun. the body is now being taken i believe, around for a viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin you mentioned earlier in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. every town the train went through, it seemed there were enormous bouquets of flowers that would be offered. some of them were put on the outside of the train. just an outpouring of tributes. host: we talking with richard hart about this re-creation and reenactment involvement was there? was it a denominational ceremony of any sort or nondenominational? can knew -- what can you tell us about that. richard: william simpson was the minister. he was the principal speaker, i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either read psalms or other religious passages. and the music was very traditional. it seems to be a long funeral service. i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, simply because the people who spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield. lincoln had heard and thought he was an outstanding minister. the people here are assembling before a large stage that has been erected, that would not have been there at the time of the funeral. this is a large stage. flowers and different plans. one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now. the coffin as i black and -- the coffin is on a black tablecloth. you can see it now. behind that and toward the other hill here, there are assembled people in period dress. some men in top hats. some of them have parasols and umbrellas. and the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see, up the hill and back. people are standing in the and behind the vault. this stage is not something that was there that was into 1865, but perhaps everyone will get to be able to better see and hear. also, a big screen tv, and outdoor television up for everybody to see what's going on. >> let's ask that question. >> the only reason the cemetery was outstanding -- >> richard, can you hear me? >> probably one of the best examples in midwest illinois. they have been trimmed for this occasion. we had a drought several years ago and some of the oaks were taken down to the last week by volunteers. the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era. so, they are saving the tree would and making that into mementos for people who visit oak ridge >> as you can see here, the reenactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral looks like it's about to get underway. we're going to thank our guest on site there in springfield for being with us all afternoon and offering us his insight. afternoon and offering his insight. author of the book "the funeral of abraham lincoln." this is "american history tv." as you can see, this reenactment on a beautiful spring day in springfield is underway and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when the funeral reenactment itself is done we will have a chance for you to talk to a historian and we will take some more of your phone calls. ♪ ♪ [crying baby] ♪ >> good afternoon. we thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly. at this time i would like to introduce to you lynn woolsey who will portray reverend albert hale. >> let us pray. father in heaven, we acknowledge the as the author of our being and the giver of every good and perfect gift. you give life, you take it away. the lives of men and of nations are in your hands. we bow before you today believing in that presence and asking that with submissive hearts we may acknowledge the in the serious thoughts that press upon millions today. we thank that you give to this nation your servant, so mysteriously and maliciously taken from us. we thank the, father in heaven that thou did give him to your people and that he was raised in a position of power and authority that through him you have been led through to the present hopeful condition of our public affairs. before the our hearts are in grief and sorrow and we entreat the to remember especially the bereaved widows and families. we play that -- pray that in this hour of trial god gives to them the blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation that they in their grief shall see that it is not a sorrow, but under god the opening day of nebulous -- never-ending blessings. today we commit them and relatives who mourn in this distressing event we commit the people of the city and state in which he has grown up in whose affection he holds today in his death stronger than in the most powerful moment of his life. versatile god, bless us help us to cherish the memory of his life and the work on the high example he has shown. we do pray that the high purpose for which he lives may be carried to completion. god, thank the for the other example that you set us in the city year, the truth, the love of freedom, the opposition to wrong, and injustice is slavery. we pray that god will grant policy of our government touched upon in these issues may be successfully carried through her not a slave will carry shackles in the land and not a soul be found that will not rejoice in his glory and power in the hearts of this nation. god, our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who is so mysteriously called to occupy the chair of state. give unto him humility and wisdom to direct his steps, a love of righteousness and cherish the freedom of the people while he sits at the helm of the nation. our father in heaven, we pray upon the millions who have come out of bondage, remember them my brother, give to him who has taken from us, may all the people unite in their prayers their patients, their self-denial so that these may come up and take their place in the nation's citizens rejoicing in newborn privileges and the rights in which god gave and man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we ask my blessing upon all those endeavoring today to secure the public interest against the hands of an assassin and prevent the murder of those in high places. god, let i just dislike righteousness and power rid the nation of those from these evils arise. maybe union rise up and become a night -- a light on the nation of earth in future times. father in heaven, thou art just and righteous. only and all of thy doings are we simple and unworthy of privilege, but that has not dealt us after our sins. according to your iniquity there are services still to be performed here and accepted by christ our redeemer and the father and the holy spirit glory everlasting -- amen. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> benjamin cole will be playing dr. meyer. >> a reading from job, chapter 19. have pity upon me, have pity upon me my friends, for the hands of god have touched me. why do you persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh? oh, that my words were now written, that they were printed in a book, that they were graven with an iron pen and led in the rock forever. for i know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand at the latter-day upon the earth and go after my skin worms destroy the body, yet in my flesh i shall see god, whom i shall see for myself and my eyes shall behold, not another. my brains be consumed within me. the word of the lord. ♪ >> chief justice williams, rhode island supreme court retired for reverend dr. matthew simpson. >> fellow citizens of illinois and many parts of our entire nation near the capital of does large and growing state of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove, at the vault that is about to receive the remains of our former chieftain we gather to pay a respectful tribute and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago he left his plane and quiet home, exchanging parting words with friends gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century. with his children, where they have been born and he had enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an earnest request in the hearings of some present at this hour as he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any that had fallen upon any man since the days of washington. people would offer prayer that god would aid and sustain him in the work. he left your quiet city, but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only through the vigilance of officers and the prayers of the people so that final tragedy was suspended for more than four years. how different the occasion which witnesses departure from that which witnessed his return. doubtless you expected to take him by the hand, feel his warm grasp and feel his -- see his tall form walking among you. but he was never able to return until he came with mute lips, silent framed in a coffin and a weeping nation following as his mourners. there have been other mornings when kings and warriors have fallen -- but never has there been such morning is that which has accompanied this funeral procession for our loved one who now sleeps among us. tears fill the eyes of manley sunburned faces. strongmen, as they clasped the hands of their friends, were not able to find words to express their grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow. the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields the home of factories ceased, the sound of the hammer was not heard. busy merchants closed their doors, businesses and homes were draped in black. three weeks have elapsed and there is a mournful silence upon the land. this morning is not confined to any class or district of the country. men of all political parties and all religious creed have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and the protestant minister walk side by said, and a jewish rabbi performed a part of the solemn services. here gathered around his to mark soldiers sailors, governors, judges, officers of all the branches of the government. here, too, are men and women from the humblest and highest occupations. here too, sincere and warm tears coming from the eyes of those who have been freed from their chains by him, whom they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed on the face of the departed than ever looked upon the face of any other departed man. have looked on the procession by 1600 miles, night and day, sunlight dawn, twilight and torchlight than ever before watch the progress of a procession. why has there been this extensive morning, this great outpouring of grief and this great procession? perhaps it is become -- because of the time in which we live, in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change. a time of war in which brother fought brother and families were divided. wise gave them -- wives gave their husbands, mothers their sons. many never returned and there was morning in every home in the land. then came signs about the end of this rebellion was dear. news came that richmond had fallen. the bells rang merrily across land. the booming of canon was heard. illuminations and torchlight processional's manifested joy and families were looking for the speedy return of loved ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy in one hour, in one minute all the joy was stilled when news that abraham lincoln the best of presidents, had perished by the hand of an assassin. all of the feelings that have been gathering for years in the forms of excitement, grief power and joy turning into a whale of 10, a sadness inexpressible, and anguish on honorable. he was stricken down when his hopes were bright and prospect of a joyous life before him. perhaps the great cause of this morning is to be found in the man himself. mr. lincoln was no ordinary man. a conviction has been growing on the mind of the nation that by the hand of god he was especially singled out to guide our government in these troubled times. he had a quick and ready perception of fact, a memory unusually tenacious and retentive, and a logical turn of mind that followed unwaveringly every link in the chain of thought on which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds more broad and their character, more comprehensive in their scope but he had the ability to follow, step-by-step, with more logical power the points that he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to proceed and perceive the truth in all its relationships and simplicity and when found, to honor it. his moral power gave him preeminence. the people saw abraham lincoln as an honest man who would do what was right, regardless of the consequences. it was this moral feeling that gave him the greatest told on the people. but the great act of the mighty chieftain on which his name shall rest long after his frame shall molder away, is that of giving freedom to a race. such a power, such an opportunity god has seldom given to man. none of the event shall be forgotten when his world shall have become a network of republics and when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth and literature showing light and all mines and the claims of humanity recognized everywhere. the shelti conspicuous on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the grace to issue that proclamation that stands high above all others penned by uninspired men. abraham lincoln was a good man. he was known as an honest, temperate, forgiving man. a just man. a man of noble heart in every way. look over his features. listen to his utterances. he never spoke unkindly of any man. even the rebels received no word of anger from him. in his domestic life he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted husband and father. standing as we do today by his coffin, let us resolve to carry forward the policy that he so nobly began. let us do right by all men. let us bow in the sight of heaven -- val in the sight of heaven to eradicate every vestige of human slavery. to give every human being his true position before god and man. to crush every form of rebellion and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when, in the beautiful words of he whose lips are now forever sealed, the mystic chords of memory stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and heart stone all over this land will yet swell the course of the union when it is touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our feature. chieftain, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to the children. man shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your record and learned the lessons of wisdom. you, though your lips be, still speak. hushed is your voice, but the echoes of liberty ring through the world and the sounds of bondage lifted the joy. yet you are marching abroad and chains and manacles are versed in etch or touch. we crown you with humanity in throwing you as your triumphant son. hero, monarch, friend, farewell. [applause] ♪ >> reverend jerome kowalski will portray reverend ac hubbard. >> during the first week of march in 1865 on the steps of the capitol in washington city the 16th president of these united states gave his second inaugural address. this is what mr. lincoln said. fellow countrymen, at this second appearing to take the oath of presidential office there is less reason for an extended address than the was at the first. then a statement somewhat in detail to be pursued seemed fitting the proper. now at the expiration of four years through which public declaration has been publicly called for on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and egress of the nation build as new could be presented. the progress of our arms upon which all else chiefly depends is well known to the public as it is to myself. and it is, i trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all would hope for the future that no prediction with regard to it is ventured. on the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it. all sought to avert it. while the inaugural address was being delivered the vote to save the union without war was searching for agents in the city seeking to destroy it. seeking to dissolve the union through negotiation. one party would make war rather than let the nation survive. the other would accept war rather than let it perish. the war came. not distributed generally over the union, but localized in the southern part of it these slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. everyone knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. strengthening, perpetuating, strengthening this interest is the union rendered, even by war, while the government claimed no right to more than a restricted territorial enlargement of it. neither party expected the magnitude or duration that it has already attained. neither anticipated that the core of the conflict might cease before the conflict itself should cease. each looked for an easier triumph and in the result less fundamental was astounding. both of them read from the same bible and pray to the same gods invoking their names against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance in this, but let us not judge lest we be judged. the prayers of both could not be answered. neither have been answered fully. the him might he has his own purposes. while on the world because of its offenses, must needs be the offenses come, but will to the man by whom the offenses have come. if we shall suppose that american slavery is one of those offenses through the providence of god need come, but which having continued through his appointed time he now wishes to remove he gives the north and the south this terrible war and doomed are those for whom the offense came should we discern and there any departure from that tribute in which the believers in the living god always ascribed to him? finally, do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war might speedily pass away. yet it is god's will that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman, 250 years of unrequited toil be sunk and every drop of blood drawn by the lash be paid by another drawn by the sword, as was said 3000 years ago, so must it still be said the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. with malice toward no one but charity for all, with firmness as god gives us the right to see, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, binding up the nation's wounds, to care for him who have borne the battle with widow and orphan and do all that may be achieved and cherished in lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. [applause] >> ♪ amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, i once was lost but now am found, was blind but now i see ♪ >> we rejoice in the communion of saints, we remember all have faithfully lived, all who have peacefully died, those most dear to us and, our good friend and great leader abraham lincoln, who now rest in the. give us at length the portion of those who trusted in you and trusted to do your holy will, undoing your name with the church on earth and church in heaven, describing in very, a world without end, amen. ♪ >> the reverend jean tucker will portray reverend dr. phineas whirly. >> with your kind permission may i be permitted to share some portion of the words offered at the funeral service for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19? as we stand here, today, around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate, we recognize and adore the sol and -- solemn treaty of god, his throne in the heavens and his kingdom ruling over all. he have done and has permitted to be done whatsoever he pleases. whom the lord love, he's how these blessed words have cheered, strengthened, and sustained us through these long and weary years of civil strife while our friends and brothers on so many sanguine fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthen and sustain us today. through this new sorrow and chastening have come in such an hour and in such a way as we ought not that he should be taken from us and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country, just as he was beginning to be a animated and gladdened, the hope of enjoying with the people the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and care and patience and self-sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home in illinois and coming to the city of washington to take his seat in the executive chair of a disturbed and troubled nation he said to the friends who gathered tearfully around him and made him farewell -- i leave you with this request, pray for me. they did pray for him. millions of others prayed for him. they did not pray in vain. the answer appears in all of his subsequent history, shining forth with a heavenly radiance and the full force and tenor of his administration, from its commencement to its close. god raised him up for a great and glorious mission, furnished him for his work, aided him in its accomplishment. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and pertinacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things he gave him a calm and abiding confidence in the overruling providence of god in the ultimate triumph over truth and righteousness in the power and the blessing of god. this confidence strengthen him in his hours of anxiety and toil and inspired him with calm and cheery hope when others were inclining to despond and see. never shall i forget the emphasis and deep emotion with which he said in the east room of the executive mansion to a company of clergyman and others who called to pay him their respects in his darkest days of our civil conflict -- gentleman he said, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation, the justice and goodness of god. when it events were very threatening and prospects very dark, i still hope that in some way that man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just and god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith. it was an anchor to his soul both sure and steadfast. by dwelling constantly on your words and actions, our beloved president, your people will have an illustrious character before their eyes. if not content with the image of your mortal frame, look on his more valuable form and features of your mind. busts and statues, like their originals, are frail and perishable. but you our lamented friend and head, delineated with truth and fairly consigned to posterity will reside yourself triumphing over the injuries of time. let us pray. mighty god and loving father, we commend time mercy the solo by some -- humble servant abraham praying that having opened unto him the gates of larger life he may be received more and more into by loving presence, that he may enter into the blessing promised to all. grant us by thy grace the cherish of the good work done in him and by the agency of empowering spirit may we be enabled to carry forth the ideals of liberty for which he labored and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. remembering and i great mercies and loving kindness, we ask these things for the sake of a holy name, amen. ♪ >> it is my honor and privilege to introduce to you a woman i met a few months ago who i will call a very good friend. [applause] >> governor, mrs., distinguished guests, we have actors were very distinguished. ladies and gentlemen and 1865 the funeral of abraham lincoln was a dark and difficult time in life. how honored we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1865. it truly has been an honor. [applause] there are a couple of additions we want to add to the program that i think you will all appreciate. with the pallbearers please come forth -- would the pallbearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the actual history. we were able to do that within our pallbearers. i know they are coming. katie: would you be kind enough gentlemen to come along the front here. and, if you can, single file. as a genealogist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you all to know right now is within these pallbearers, we have direct descendents of the original pallbearers. would you please stand -- step forward, those of you who are descendents, please step forward. [applause] thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are re-creating the role their ancestor played, and i am truly honored that they are here. i want to thank the springfield choral society and the community members i have no idea how many -- i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them -- [applause] their director has had to put up an awful lot with me. [laughter] [applause] i also want to thank the band over here. [applause] while we are doing this, we also need to thank our interpreter today. [applause] i would like to now, as a commander and the crew from the uss abraham lincoln who have honored springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. [applause] they will be placing a wreath at the fault, and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me, you will see it when it is son. we will let them get on with their great work. commander and crew, we are honored to have you here. [applause] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here but around the world. the gentleman that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it is difficult. an extraordinary man was part of our group, and he suddenly passed away. and it was my intention then and it is now to make sure that keith is represented here with that anti-chair. -- that empty chair. [applause] we also had two alternates for the clergy, one of them is reverend anderson. the other is malcolm shotwell. and i'm grateful to them for always being able to pinch hit when we need it. [applause] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit into history yet again. general hooker, the rest of the program, sir, is yours. general hooker: abraham lincoln our favorite son, our neighbor, our friend, taken from us far too soon did live to see a house divided. was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787. pennsylvania, 1787. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788. maryland, 1788. south carolina, 1788. new hampshire, 1788. virginia, 1788. new york, 1788. north carolina, 1789. rhode island, 1790. vermont, 1791. kentucky, 1792. tennessee, 1796. ohio 1803. louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi, 1817. illinois, 1818. alabama, 1819. maine, 1720. missouri, 1721. arkansas, 1836. michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa, 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1860. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada, 1864. and the war was over. [gunshot] [applause] and now, he belongs to the ages. thank you. [applause] [gunshots] ♪ >> that brings to an end in reenactment of lincoln's funeral in springfield illinois. in just a minute, the university of illinois scholar michael burling game will be joining us to take your calls and talk about this day. he's the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." 748-8901 is a number for mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on facebook. professor burling game, what was it like 150 years ago? michael: very similar. the conditions that prevailed today are quite similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? michael: yes. his widow was upset by the plans made to have him buried in the center of town. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge, which is north of the center of town. she claims that it was her husband's wish. she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago, until authorities bowed to her wishes. it was legitimate, because the widow has the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. she was not there. she was so grieve-stricken by the assassination, that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination. her older son, robert, came out here. but he was the only family member that made it to springfield for the occasion. >> today's events, how accurate from your research? michael: based on what i have discovered, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making this as historically accurate and authentic as possible. professor, what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day? michael: i assume the crowd dispersed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. he is a professor at the university of illinois springfield and a lincoln next bird. caller: hi. my question is, the symbolic vote that the local springfield committee made, i think there was about 16 members. would that vote, is it symbolic to vote on or in the president's wife's wishes. if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on another plot? michael: it is not entirely clear what would happen if the 8-7 vote has been reversed. it is possible that she would have insisted to bury him elsewhere. the funeral vault the neath the capital had been created for george washington, but he is buried in mount vernon. there is an empty space, as it were. >> 20 days between his death and his funeral. how do they preserve the body? michael: with embalmers. one of the more alarming aspects is that the funeral train proceeded from washington to baltimore, then philadelphia, the new york, harrisburg, and so one. albany, buffalo, cleveland, chicago, then springfield. the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artist were hard-pressed from keeping the corpse of looking like a mummy. by the time he reached here, he was more like a mummy then the man in real life. >> is it what we call an open casket when he was there? michael: yes open casket. caller: i would like to know how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred? wasn't there a fear about the tomb wasn't finished yet and they put him somewhere inside of it -- i'm not sure. michael: i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the vault before it was closed rapidly. but it was a while. >> his body has been at oak ridge ever since, correct? michael: correct. caller: i would just like to make a comment. the program was outstanding except for the fact that i don't feel that the taurus and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful. of our fallen president. i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible shameful way to act, laughing and cheering on when they are carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. do you know how many people were at oak ridge on that day? michael: i'm sorry, i don't. caller: hello. how many years did abraham live in springfield? michael: mr. lincoln moved into the house in 1844 and left in 1861, so he was there for 17 years. the house that we know today was not there until 1856. most of the time that lincoln spent in that house, it was a one story modern house. it was a the last five years that they lived in a house with the extra story added, that was done by mrs. lincoln. when we visit the house, we get a distorted view of what it looked like. it was much more cramped than what we find when we go to the house today. >> if people come to visit springfield, what will they see that is reflected of abraham lincoln and his life? michael: there is a great deal here. it is what i somewhat irreverently referred to as the holy land. you have the lincoln home, the lincoln tomb, the lincoln law office, and the old state capitol where he served as the legislator as a young man and where he gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station from which he departed for washington in 1861 and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so, there is a great deal to be seen. on top of that, you have abraham lincoln's museum, which is quite a magnificent place for visitors to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham lincoln. so, please come. >> c-span was live with the opening of that museum. you can find that at c-span.org if you would like to watch our coverage. caller: hello. are there any other immediate family members of abraham lincoln buried their? michael: yes. mrs. lincoln is buried here and willie is buried here and eddie is buried here. all three sons -- three of the four sons are buried here. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. he served as a captain during the war, and as a military veteran, his wife thought he should be buried and arlington cemetery. when i discovered that, i went out to arlington to visit his grave, and i was startled to see that his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> what was mary todd lincoln's life like in springfield? michael: she was not very popular in springfield. she had antagonized her sisters she had antagonized neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband step. she spent time in chicago, spent time abroad. only in the later years did you come back to springfield. so she was rather unpopular, and that's why she stayed away. lincoln was asked by his friend what he planned to do after his second term was over, and he said that he planned to return to springfield, but mrs. lincoln didn't want to. caller: good afternoon. i was calling to ask the gentleman, in the reenactment today, with the casket carried is that his actual casket or a replica? michael: i'm sorry -- >> was at a repit a replica? michael: yes, it is a replica. i didn't know where it is stored. caller: hi. it is an honor to speak to you. i wanted to ask, can you talk about what happened with robert lincoln. 30 or 40 years later, when they had to go into the tomb and open up the casket, check something about the president can you talk about why that was necessary, please? michael: i'm not intimately familiar with that story. but there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the president, and the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i cannot give you more details about that. >> what do you teach at the university of illinois? michael: i teach a course on the reconstruction, and a seminar on abraham lincoln. caller: i was wondering if this is the first time there has ever been a reenactment of his interment. if not why 150 years later? why has there never been one before and why now? michael: i don't know the answer to that. i know that the people that have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have been extremely conscientious. it is a good question. i don't have the answer to your question. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? michael: no, there are no lineal descendents. robert litan had a son, but he died young. caller: i thought they tried to take his body several times, so his body was actually moved. michael: yes, the body was actually moved around. there has been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body. it was the gang that could not shoot straight, and it failed but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil future attempts. >> why the train route that was taken from washington back to springfield? michael: prof. burlingame: the train ride which re-created the train ride he took from illinois to washington. chicago was added on the return trip. it was undertaken and part two allow -- to allow the public to express morning, not just for abraham lincoln, but the outpouring of grief it was accompanying the funeral train was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war, many of him could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buriedin in unmarked graves. and so in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they live in similar communities. and so, when a family member was dying, you would be present with that person. you would attend the funeral and the like. and this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands of thousands of people could not do that. and so the train ride was a kind of cathartic exercise which allowed the nation, at least the north, to engage and morning not only for the fallen leader but for their fall in love points. that i think is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin. one of the most striking things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the reminiscences of people who as children were taken to see the train. as they worote about it in later years, they were more struck by the fact not that they saw the train itself but that they saw tears in their parent's eyes. host: who are some of the dignitaries that attended abraham lincoln's funeral? prof. burlingame: the dignitaries that attended the funeral work as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurnee, who the preacher at the new york avenue presbyterian church where president lincoln attended worship services during his presidency. bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church, the largest church in the country at that time. and local authorities including his good friends who had worked with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the potomac in 1863. and several other people of that sort. host: but not ulysses s. grant? prof. burlingame: no. host: juan, georgia. go ahead. caller: professor burlingame? i happened to live in springfield in the 1940's. i lived west of town. [voice breaking up] i used to walk from the capitol building to petersburg where lincoln's village was. and back that day to get, earn a badge. we had a well on the front lawn and i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts from all over the country. my sunday school teacher, i attended the first methodist church in springfield on n fit street. and my sunday school teacher was judge logan's. grandson. we heard many stories about mr. lincoln. i do not remember a lot of them, i was seven years old, but judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. yes. and -- his grandson in atlanta right now. and i talked to him not too long ago. host: michael birmingham, who is judge logan? prof. burlingame: judge logan was lincoln's second law partner. he had three law partners. he started off with john stewart with whom he served in the legislature and in the blackhawk war. his second law partner with stephen t logan. stephen to logan was probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very incidental in teaching lincoln the law. and lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln cannot get along very well with his own father. he was rather estranged from his own father. older men in positions of authority like judge logan served as surrogate fathers for lincoln. he was one of the most important. he was also political ally. they were good members of the whig party together. and champions of the republican party. and judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge logan. there are many people in springfield whose ancestors are close to lincoln. in fact, this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. my ancestor was closer to lincoln than yours. i horn in by saying well, my great-grandfather was lincoln's ambassador to china but that does not cut any ice and spring field. host: just doing a little bit of math and up to 1920 there were a lot of people living in springfield who had actually known abraham lincoln. did anyone -- prof. burlingame: up until that time, yes. host: did anyone ever do or history? prof. burlingame: yes. there was quite a lot of oral history done. one of the great contributions to lincoln's studies was an oral history project that was undertaken by his law partner william herndon. as soon as the president died, herndon corresponded with an interview people in indiana and illinois and kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on lincoln . then in subsequent years newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and interview people for -- who knew lincoln. those interviews are externally valuable and they can be found in newspapers and they can be found in the field notes and research notes of the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln, a life to go to brown the university in providence, rhode island, which is an excellent collection because john hay, his assistant personal secretary went to brown. and i discovered a whole cache of valuable interviews that had been conducted by haye, and also by his fellow secretary in the white house. all kinds of new information. yes, there is a treasure trove or reminisces about lincoln. they have to be treated with caution because people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. as mark twain once said, the older i get the more vividly i remember things that never happened. but if you use reminiscences in conjunction with contemporary documents, they can be extremely revealed to it i have made good use of those. host: michael burlingame. the abraham lincoln association book prize in 1996. his book won the 2010 lincoln prize. what, about 1000 pages you have a netbook? prof. burlingame: no, it is 2000 pages. it weighs nine pounds. don't drop it on your foot. because it is so big and clumsy, i recommend, the 200 p0 pages are awkward to hold i recommend that people get it on kindle or ipad. they should be warned that as soon as you download abraham lincoln a life, your device becomes much heavier. host: craig is calling from pennsylvania. caller: hello, professor. my question has to do with the reenactors carrying the coffins. i assume that they were representing the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the old ones who carry the coffin of president lincoln from -- all the way from washington to spring field. in springfield and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the so-called pallbearers and the veteran reserve corps. and secondly, my understanding the veteran reserve corps actually received a medal of honor for their honorary duty in guarding and escorting the body of president lincoln. prof. burlingame: the veteran reserve corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i did not know the story about the medal of honor. that is quite remarkable. that is a remarkable fact. i'm glad to learn it. host: mark, wilmington, delaware. good afternoon. you're on with professor michael burlingame in o ak ridge cemetery, in spring field, illinois. caller: there was a caller earlier who asked about what happened later in the day and i came across a quote in a book i have called "20 days." and it was published -- back in 1965. and it says later that day back in springfield a crowd went to stand in front of the governor's mansion and listen to the band of the st. louis regimen which had come to march and the funeral procession. serenade the governor. it was the first time quick time is it was heard in springfield in three weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. prof. burlingame: that is a touching story. thanks. caller: it is a wonderful book. i pulled it off my shelf. i had it in my lap watching the reenactment today. so it has been nice. prof. burlingame: it is a remarkable book. a huge collection of materials. that he compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. it is the repository of one of the best image collections of lincoln in the country. host: we have been live in springfield for several hours on american history tv. if you missed any of it, and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time, everything we have shown today will re-air on c-span 3 on the weekend. lisa from california, hi, lisa. caller: hello. host: go ahead, ma'am. caller: i wanted to know was it lincoln's -- what was lincoln's favorite food? host: what made you curious about that? calllerer: i don't know. they were talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat? host: let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. prof. burlingame: friend of mine,, his favorite food was chicken fricassee and mashed potatoes and strober shortcake. i've a friend who has written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he of the sizes that is lincoln 's -- emphasizes that as lincoln 's favorite meal. he is famously not a foodie. his assistant presidential secretary said he was a man who was not much of a connoisseur of, or gourmet. that he ate what was put before him without complaining. he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers would travel around from one county seat to the next every fall and spring out here in central illinois, and all the other lawyers would grouse about the food but lincoln would not. one day, even his legendary patientsce wore thin. and he said to the house sir with this after dinner beverages coffee. would you please bring me tea? if this is tea would you please bring me coffee? how was that for a gentle way to register a complaint. host: hi mike. caller: hi fellas. you pledge before there were no direct descendents of abraham and lincoln alive. however, nancy hanks, her sister is tom hanks great great great grandmother. i thought that was kind of neat. prof. burlingame: right. so there is a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to lincoln's mother side. but no descendents of lincoln himself, that his, his son or his children did not have grandchildren who then also had children of their own. host: margaret in des moines. hi, margaret. caller: hi. i was wondering if lincoln was buried in spring field illinois, they always told me he was buried in a statue of lincoln in washington d.c. so where was he originally buried? prof. burlingame: he was buried out here but at the lincoln memorial, the lincoln memorial on the mall in washington is a great tribute to him. but he is not buried there. host: go ahead, sir. prof. burlingame: i was going to say, of course it is a magnificent trivia to lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things about the lincoln memorial, as you look at the statue, if you face to the right eisai -- whoa -- you see -- whoa! [laughter] host: i take it something went flying. did the wind grab something? prof. burlingame: a tent blew over. everybody ok? host: sounds windy out there. prof. burlingame: but anyway, when you go to the lincoln memorial one of the striking things you see is not just a magnificent statue but also the second inaugural address, the text on the right-hand wall and the -- and the gettysburg address is on the left-hand wall. host: if you cannot get through on the phone lines, you can try social media @c-span history is american history's twitter address, or join the conversation on abraham lincoln@facebook.com/c-span history. theresa, lebanon, indiana. caller: hello. host: hi. hello. caller: you had a question from a caller asking about the movement of lincoln's body within his tomb. andf years ago, when i was a very small child, nine or 10 years old, i read a story in look magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure it was indeed him in the coffin. and i remember the story well because it freaked me out terribly because he describes in detail the condition of his skin the condition of his clothing, and everything else. and then he told the story about why he was there. and that story stayed with me forever until a few years ago when i googled the story again and the man passed away in the 1980's or something. but he was very young. they said they were moving him to make sure the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his body being stolen. and another course and its place. that is what i remember reading from look magazine. prof. burlingame: speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend, a woman who is reading to her four-year-old son a book about lincoln. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. it's a return to his mother and said mommy, do i have the story right? the president went to the theater and he was watching the play, then he got shot while watching the play but he did not die until the next morning. his mother said, that's right. the boy thought about that and thought about that. then he said well, at least you got to see the end of the play. host: up next -- prof. burlingame: this is a true story. host: john in lake city, florida. you are on american history tv. caller: thank you for what you're doing. i have one question and one something to see if you can answer. the first is regarding the mythology behind president lincoln, the great the mensa paid her, i do not believe he knew that term and it was a term that was invented by the media -- the great emancipator. secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a tyrant when in reality my studies have shown where he may have stretched the constitution his adversaries did the same but yet, i see authors such as the kennedy brothers continually downgrade him in this manner. i do not understand why that is. prof. burlingame: there are cranks and lunatic fringe in all fields, and i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking thing about lincoln during the civil war is that the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than during the war with france in 1798 when the congress passed the alien and sedition acts which tried to crush the jeffersonian republican party. much less repressive than world war i when this sedition and espionage acts were passed witchcraft down very severely-- which crackdown very severely on all forms of dissent. world war ii when 120,000 japanese americans were incarcerated with no trial, no due process and the like. the striking thing about the civil war is how much there was suppression -- was not how how much the suppression of civil liberties, but how little. especially considering how it was a very serious domestic, civil war were seven times was much more prominent than it was in world war i or world war ii. the main complain about lincoln 's civil liberties is that he suspended the privilege of the write of habeas corpus but the constitution says the privilege may be suspended in times of domestic rebellion or foreign invasion. the original language of that portion of the constitution set the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in times of domestic -- or foreign invasion. they cut out the phrase by the legislature. it was clear the president had that authority. so, lincoln's record on civil liberties is distorted by people's -- people like thomas dilorenzo. host: a minute ago we were showing entrance to the tune with the iron doors at oak ridge of the above. -- to the tomb. was that built for ever have lincoln and what you see when you go through those iron doors? prof. burlingame: i cannot say for certain. i'm not sure was created certain for him. host: you have never been through those doors huh? prof. burlingame: right. host: so are visitors allowed to go? prof. burlingame: no. no the tomb itself is entered from a very different angle. and different elevation. host: oh, up the stairs. prof. burlingame: right. host: mike in columbus, ohio. yes, sir. go ahead, professor. prof. burlingame: i was just going to say that the tomb on the monument above the tomb is really quite striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the direction of the monument was -- the erection of the monument that mrs. lincoln insisted that the monument be buried by the tomb. she had every right to insist on bearing her where she saw fit. she did not have the right to insist on where the monument would be placed, but she was rather -- a rather imperious woman when she got her way. caller: professor, i wanted to ask you -- was abraham lincoln a good lawyer? did you get along with the news media and has history made him bigger than he really was? prof. burlingame: um, he was a good lawyer. he was not a great lawyer but he was a good provincial lawyer. very capable. and what th -- with the news media he got along very well. this was something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries john hey, two young men in their 20's write for newspapers, right defenses of the administration's annex the nations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments. that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york and missouri and elsewhere. and so he wanted to have the newspapers cover him favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate with the public that was very effective was an innovation on his part to write public letters to newspaper editors or two critics. -- to critics. they would get reprinted in newspapers of the day. in lieu of press, this, these were techniques that lincoln used to cultivate the press. was he bigger? has history made him bigger than he deserves? i don't think so. as time goes by, we have come to appreciate him as a larger and figure than even we appreciate today. host: james tweets. my mother tells me that she has an ancestor that was in lincoln 's from your area are -- funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? prof. burlingame: you can go to the abraham lincoln presidential library. the reference librarians would be eager to help you. host: garrtett is calling in from hanscom air force base. where is that? caller: it is between bedford and lexington. host: in kentucky? caller: no messages is. thank you for c-span. and professor, thank you for the book. -- no, massachusetts. my question is, since this is about the funeral. i had a question about what was -- would lincoln have done if he were still alive during that time? an additional question, do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? prof. burlingame: no you do not have to pay. on the question of, the question you pose is one that historians have try to answer for many years and that is what would've happened if lincoln had lived? when i was a student in school, chest after the punic war, i would've thought that lincoln would have been crucified by congress the way his successor andrew johnson was. lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during the war. december 1863, basically saying if you lay down your arms and except the evolution of slavery there will not be any punishment except for the highest ranking members of the confederate military and civilian government. then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that and congress objected vigorously and impeached him and he came within one vote of being removed from office. the argument that was prevalent when i was a student many years ago was that that is just what would've happened to lincoln. most historians do not agree with that now. because they say that what lincoln was doing in december of 1863 was to encourage southerners to throw in the towel, to surrender. they had suffered grievous defeats at gettysburg, vicksburg, fort hudson chattanooga. no reasonable southerner could believe they were going to win the war on the ground, but if they were offered general instead of specific peace terms, they would turn the tall. that motive no longer existed once robert e lee surrender. two days later on april 11 1855, lincoln gave a speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to vote for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage, at least for the veterans of the union army and for the veyry intelligent, by which we assume he meant literate. frederick douglass who was in the audience heard the president give that speech and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. but frederick douglass said later, i should have known and we should've known that that was a terribly important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statement ship in the school of rail splitting and to split a rail, you insert a wedge into the log. then having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should've known that that is what lincoln was doing that day. and john wilkes booth heard that speech and he knew that that was a really significant speech. and he turned his colleagues and said, that means n word citizenship. by god that is the last speech he is ever going to give and i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln. not because lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation and not because he supported the 13th amendment abolishing slavery but because he called for black voting rights. i think it is appropriate for us in the 21st century to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king. or