rebels and government. and assad will control the four major cities. alep aleppo and others. but he doesn't control the whole country. he says he wants it back. certainly in the days ahead, we can expect many more. hours of fighting. and an increasing death toll, sadly. >> i'm joined now by bob corker of tennessee. senator corker, if you had to give advice on an intimate basis with the colonel president, or the incoming president, what would you tell him to do to try to stop this horror? >> well, look. we've been giving advice for four or five years, chris. this was said to be on the front end of the conflict. it is a blight on human kind.
at this point, the story as it relates to western syria is mostly written. and what will happen will be determined by russia who stepped in, and iran. and certainly assad. so this is a disaster we've known he is torturing his own people. you've seen the holocaust museum of caesar who was documenting this. cutting people's genitals off. it has been going on for a long time. it is as if people are beginning to wake up to what's occurred. as far as advice goes, russia will determine the outcome and the western part. so the real decision is on the eastern part. where isis is. are we going to team one the turks? with the arabs? who are in conjunction the
kurds? or do we do something in coordination with russia? the real what's left is the isis component. we unfortunately led these rebels on. we told them what we were going to do. we cheered them on. we held their coats. and this is what is left. >> what would you have done in? >> it was what was done with secretary clinton. that was to attempt to really give the moderate rebels, when there was a moderate rebel group, what they needed to push back. when the kept weapons were used, the free syrian army was on the move. they had momentum. when we decided not to carry out
that operation to push back, it depleted their montum. it left them in many ways lifeless. that we would not do what women. so there has been a series of efforts. we had the opportunity to create a no-fly zone along the southern border of turkey and aleppo. it doesn't do any good. it is a shame. russia is in there. russia is not going away. how do we move russia to bring down assad? >> you're not going to. it won't happen. the thing can happen is we can hope that we can bring the arabs to the table. they're concerned about iranian influence. and we can hope to negotiate over time.
after years and years and years, but at this point, russia controls what will happen in that area. >> the next president -- let's look at the next president. >> he is not sullied by the lack of decisions that have been made. knew exfocus on the isis on it. >> he has advocated during the campaign a stronger role from vladimir putin and even bashar assad. let's watch trump in action. >> if putin wants to go, i can't understand how anybody would be against it. i've been looking at the different players and i've been watching and i've been pretty good with this over the years.
deals are people. i'm looking at assad and saying maybe he is better than the kind of people we're supposed to be backing. >> your reaction? >> well, look. russia is hitting the folk that we have been supporting for years. in some cases, they're mixed in. but their focus has not been on isis. so the real decision will be, as i mentioned earlier, how do we go forward? do we try to do something? do we try to do so with the kurd era? the coalition has been put together. that's the decision that he has to make. would you support john bolton in
a top position in the new government? john bolton? >> i have made no comments on nominees until they're actually nominated. so let's see what happens. >> i understand. >> look. it is a nomination that has been controversial in the past. i've never really sat down and talking to john bolton one-on-one. until someone is nominated, i don't like to weigh in. >> how about the proposal to move the capital to jerusalem? it's always been talked about but never been done. >> candidly, i've talk to the israelis about it. and i think there is a way to communicate the moving of the embassy. what we have is a kons hat now that only works on the palestinian side. i think there's a way of doing it if you communicate that you're still hoping and working toward a two-state solution. so i know he campaigned on it.
i think it would be something at this point that could not be negative and could be very positive moving things along. so my guess is they will move in that direction. >> i disagree but that's your right. yesterday, the ambassador said they are responsible. >> to the assad regime, russia and iran, three member states, behind the conquest of and carnage in aleppo, you bear responsibility for these atrocities. when one day there is a full accounting of the horrors committed in this aassault of aleppo, and that day will come sooner rather than later, you will not be able to say you did not know what was happening or you were not involved. we all know what was happening and we all know you were involved. it should shame you.
instead, by all appearances, it is emboldening you. are you truly incapable of shame? is there no act of barbarism against civilians? no execution of a child that gets unltd your skin, that creeps you out a little bit? is there nothing you will not lie about or justify? >> that's the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. i'm joined by bob casey, democrat from pennsylvania. i was not getting a lot of response from your chairman, senator corker, about what we can do right now. we see the pictures coming from aleppo. can we leverage it? to petition the country? what can we do to stop the fighting. >> certainly, we can be continuing to make the efforts. that i know the administration has made and secretary kerry has
worked to get more humanitarian aid on the ground and deliver it. and i know that's an ongoing effort. i don't know how to place a metric on that in terms of success or failure but i know they're trying very hard. and certainly the russians have been, most of the time, have not been cooperative. other times they have been cooperative. lately i think samantha powers is right. not just aleppo but all throughout syria. but right now, the most important thing is to focus on getting that humanitarian aid and to focus on, as i will, the new congress. marco rubio and i, the far from florida, we have legislation that we've introduced that focuses on sanctioning. but also, focusing intensively on getting humanitarian aid
there. >> here's what a form he energy minister told engel about the incoming administration. let's watch this. >> the trump election and the new administration the way it is being shaped. it is a gift. he couldn't have dreamed about that a few months ago. >> so trump and his team are a gift. how do you react to that in. >> it is a reality that i think concerns not only me but a lot of the american people. you have this fascination that the president-elect seems to have with vladimir putin. i hope that when he is president, after he takes oath of office, i hope he makes it very clear to the american people that he will be very tough with russia. hold them accountable when they everybody gauge in the kind of
activity they've engaged in in syria. and i think the way he should view vladimir putin is the way i view him. as close to a 24-hour bad guy as you go get in the world stage. constantly intervening. even in our elections as we know now from good reporting. i hope the president-elect will have a different approach. >> two tough questions. john bolton for any top position. would you support him? the man, one of the top hawks in the iraq war. your thoughts. >> it would be very difficult for me to support him. i don't know what will happen in terms of the nomination. >> what about the idea, not the idea but the reality of moving our embassy to jerusalem. is that something that would be good for our relations over there? >> i would hope that we could but i don't think that's likely to happen. we'll see what the incoming administration does.
>> i hope it doesn't happen. it would be cataclysmic. >> it seems like paul ryan and donald trump are pals now. he said he is like a fine wine. it gets better with time. that's ahead. plus, the "hardball" round table. can the stars of the movie, the true story of three african-american women, math ma additions. and they composed the film's amazing sound track. finally let me finish with one of my sources. a political guy from boston who saw the election result coming. this is "hardball." a place for politics. my business was built with passion...
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choices for the top four positions in the incoming trump cabinet. the real plum jobs are all going to white men. the first time that's happen, on this has happened since 1989. [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything! [kid] i won't, dad... [captain rod] happy tuesday morning! captain rod here. it's pretty hairy out on the interstate.traffic is
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i've come the appreciate them of speaker paul ryan. where is he? he has been terrific. and honestly, he is like a fine wine. every day goes by. i get to appreciate his genius more and more. if he ever goes against me, i won't say that. okay? we have some amazing things in store. we're going to work on taxes and obamacare and he will lead the way. we're going to work on the wall, paul. >> see? the old favorites. the golden oldies. the wall. while trump appeared to put ryan on notice last night with their newly forged friendship, it produced big results.
and jeremy peters is with "the new york times." let's talk about this. it really gets to the heart of what will get done. he said, well, he won't approve a spending bill. will paul ryan grew he some grand economic deal? or will nothing get done? >> he has to. let's be honest. paul ryan at some point made calculated risk that trump won't win. what ryan has said since then, he has spoken to people that we haven't been. the key from that footage that you showed, you have to understand. a lot of trump supporters are not necessarily republican supporters. they're trump supporters. and ryan needs them. at the same time, president-elect needs ryan. it is an arranged marriage that you i think it will work.
they're hoping to get the country rolling again. big economic opportunities for everybody. if they don't pass a bill, road building, bridge building, spending money, hiring people, it is all bs if he doesn't do that. will everything along with it? >> ryan is governance. that's what he is in place to do. building bridges. the nation needs infrastructure. we have crumbling roads and bridges and buildings. but at the same time, donald trump said this on the campaign trail. and to make him successful, these two frenemies have to work. and paul ryan is the one to help find the ways and means to make it happen. >> will he force trump in every case, pay for this. pay for this. raise taxes to pay for this. it is a very hard thing to do. if you stip hate the economy. trump wants to cut a lot of taxes and spend money.
>> will they try conduct a scheme like they did? with the gas tax and call it a highway user fee? >> there will be a way to pay for this. yes. it will have to be done in a way that will be palatable to the grover norquists of the world. >> what's wrong with borrowing the money? trump bonds. get them to go out and sell trump bonds. >> this is where the cabinet secretaries will play a key role. his labor secretary. they are going to be deeply involved. >> elaine chao? >> the wife of --? >> mitch mcconnell. this was all very well thought of. >> do you think he got the spouse to get the spouse? do you think trump has figured this out? >> let's point out that she does have experience. >> i just saw her last night. i'm saying, was he thinking of this marital connection?
it was her ability to shepherd it through congress. it is a different story. >> his politics is business and he knows, that's what you do. you final common ground. politico reported that donald trump's son, donald jr., sat in on the interviews and made calls to candidates according to sources familiar with the process. montana congressman ryan zinke was offered the post tuesday. it was an outdoor. he said the only job in government i would want is department of the interior. ends the issues. it is something i will be passionate about. no one gets him more than us. that's the kid talking.
>> the transition team has been very transparent that donald trump jr. is on the transition team. he is someone who is helping us form this. it only makes expense the transition team member was active in the process. >> well, you know, trump does listen to other people for advice. it took him a while to pick the new secretary of state designate. but he uses his kids. can he get away as using his kids in the midst of a presidency? >> i think he will do it and try to figure it out later. i don't think that it matters to him. this is what he has always done. it speaks to how trump doesn't really change. will he stop tweeting now that he's become president? of course not. will he stop going after his
rivals? of course not. >> how does that affect our operation in india in any time he is talking about indiana, he is talking about indian tribes or anything. how does that affect the operation? >> donald trump is falling back on who he is. it is about business. his children very strategic for him. we saw it today when he had a tech meeting. all three were in the meeting. and trump falls back on that. he is trying on final business solutions to our everyday problems. >> can you put your children in a blind trust? >> the stocks have to be in a blind trust. >> the children cannot be in charge of a blind trust. >> they can't be in one either. >> if you look through campaign, every time the kids got involved, they help make better decisions. not worse.
>> so he could put up with bad press. >> you would say risk taking is heat for conflict. >> governance will win out. what happens when all those trump buildings become targets for the bad guys? here's a way to hit america. the "hardball" roundtable is staying with us. and always, the star studded -- this is great stuff. the new about to come out movie. hidden figures. they're all coming to "hardball" to talk about three african-american mathematicians who worked behind the scenes to get space program off the ground. it really happened. we should have known about it 50 years ago. world ugly and messy.
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bill clinton was a investigatoration reader. george w. bush had people come in and give them, and now president obama read as well as takes the briefings. so we understand donald trump does not like to read much. so we are expecting it will be catered to him. >> senior sources on capitol hill. it seems like rex tillerson will be fine. fine doesn't mean the process will be pleasant or not bumpy. >> if i don't see you again, merry christmas. still ahead interesting stars of the movie, hidden figures. stick around. this is great stuff. octavius spencer, kevin costner.
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vladimir putin was personally involved in the campaign to interfere in the election. and yahoo! is disclosing a 2015 breach that allowed hackers to steal personal information from more than a million users. in semi, yahoo! revealed another hacking affecting 500 million accounts. >> we're coming back with the stars of hidden figures who help launch america's space program. and here is a clip from the film. >> you're at nasa. that's pretty heavy stuff. >> yes, it is. >> they let women handle -- that's not what i mean. >> what do you mean? >> i'm just surprised something
so taxing -- >> mr. johnson, if i were you, i would quit talking right now. >> i mean no disrespect. >> i will have you know, i was the first female negro student at west vf graduate school on any given day, i analyze friction and velocity. and compute over 10,000 calculations by hand. so yes. they let women do some things at nasa, mr. johnson, and it is not because we wear skirts. it is because we wear glasses. >> the stars behind this great movie are coming here next. it will be great to watchful this is "hardball," the place for politics.
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even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything! [kid] i won't, dad... [captain rod] happy tuesday morning! captain rod here. it's pretty hairy out on the interstate.traffic is literally crawling, but there is some movement on the eastside overpass. getting word of another collision. [burke] it happened. december 14th, 2015. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ what's the status on that computer? >> she's right behind you, mr. harrison. >> can she handle geometry? >> absolutely. and she speaks. >> yes, sir. i do. >> which one? >> both. geometry and speaking. >> ruth, get me the -- do you
think you can find me the frame for this data using -- >> the algorithim, yes, sir. i prefer it over euclidian coordinates. >> welcome back. that was the scene from the upcoming flil, hidden figures. the true story of three african-american mathematicians and the key role they played at nasa to launch the first american into orbit. it sets the struggle of equal rights against the space race. even at nasa, african-americans were segregated from their white counter parts. this is a film about women who broke barriers in more ways than one. here's a clip for the trailer. >> katherine! we're all going to get unemployed. >> i'll sit in the back of the bus. >> you have identification? >> we were just on our way to work at nasa, sir. >> i had no idea they hired. >> quite a few women working in the space program.
>> that's john glenn. >> what do you women do for nasa? >> calculate your landing, sir. and i'm proud. >> it's equal rights. i have a right to see fine in every color. >> would you wish to be an engineer? >> i wouldn't have to. i would already be one. >> hidden figures is out in select theaters at christmas time. christmas day and a wider following on january 6. i am joined by those people who made the movie come to life including the stars of the film. taraji p. henson. she is the superstar. and octavia spencer, i've been in love with her for a long time. and you all look very glamorous. you're dressed like bureaucrats. the great kevin costner is here and of course, singer-songwriter, and the director, thank you. i love st. vincent with bill
murray. you just dominate movie. i had to say that. and putting one jim crow and putting one jim crow in a federal institution. what grabbed me in the beginning was, the cop who stopped you guys in your '57 chevy i love those. he stops you in a car and he has the usual color mentality going. on black/white thing going on. and all of a sudden he says you're in the space program. and his patriotism kicks in. >> yes. >> tell me about that. >> well, i think that's the overall message of the story. when we put our differences aside as humans, we're able to move the human race forward. at the end of the day, we're all humans. a mind doesn't have a color. when it comes to calculating numbers, i don't care what color you are. i don't care who you sleep with at night. can you find the math? >> i love the score.
this person that taraji is playing, everybody has to go to the bathroom and everybody knows the experience of having to go to the bathroom now. and then she has, it is like a bad dream. i have to go to a building where there's a colored women's bathroom. and you got this great music. tell me abo the music you put in there. >> man, the music was largely just led by -- >> it is called running. >> yes, sir. that song was just based on a story. when we got the script, okay. these women are living in the matrix of the 1960s where the physics and the gravity for african-americans was much heavier. and it was twice as hoef a woman. so having to run to the bathroom, not only the other side of the building but the other side of the campus. and there were campus bikes. but for women, we forget as men, you know, long skirts, long dresses. so they had to run rain or shine, 30 on 45 minutes round trip to the other side of the campus just to use the bathroom.
>> so ted and the other ladies here, high leels a big part of this for some reasons. maybe it is the photography. the women look great but you're always shooting the legs and the shoes. and one time they get caught. and you almost get killed. it is a wind tunnel. you look great by the way. the guy says, the shoe ain't worth it. when you're running to the bathroom, it is high heels. so women in high heels being african-american in a jim crow setting. we did it all like we do every day. what is so inspiring, they did not allow the obstacles to deter them and stop them from the dreams.
yes, we were dealing with classism and racism. when nasa put all those isms to bed, that's when they achieved the extraordinary together. at the end of the day, we all bleed the same color. >> i think of you all the time in a movie. i think i've seen 13 days a hundred times. and in the middle of a cuban crisis, you have that same time period. it is '62. this movie includes the reality of american high of much better. you can give some of that a pass. how many stories can you possibly tell? if you look beneath the surface, you will final the story. if you are going to tell original story about john glenn.
not the women working off to the side. if you're going to tell that story, there is a moment when he would go or not going. so it would be like telling a joke and maybe leaving out a punch line. there was a moment where he was going to go or not go and it huck on the balance of a young woman who would have to do math by hand. in great story telling, you don't leave out that bit. if we don't learn about these human computers, i can see that story. hmmm, i would have liked to know about that a long time ago. but not knowing about that moment, that should have been a part of what we knew about for a long time. >> he was a good guy, octavia. >> he was a good guy, period. i learned something about him that i didn't know and it made him that much more of an american hero to me. he did something unpopular. he put his hands in the life of
this african-american woman. if her numbers didn't match up, he wouldn't go. >> he wanted to know he was going to land. >> that's key information. they have to get to it. with th ship. but you were in "the help." >> i was in "the help." >> i always remember that meal you cooked up for that white lady. we will always remember that. this tastes interesting. so you've gotten at the jim crow thing from a couple ways now. >> jim crow is a very difficult time to immerse yourself in, but when you're doing a period film, we have agency as contemporary women that african-american women did not have in the jim crow era. so there's something wonderful to be said about the solidarity that we felt on the set, very insulated, ted created a safe place for us to work and have fun. >> i like the way, taraji, you look up at that sign as you go out of the room, colored computers. they still designate you by your
ethnicity. let's take another look at the movie. >> go find your way over there. >> that colonel jim is a tall glass of water. >> that he is. >> tall, strong, commanding. >> and i bet he's like that day and night. >> mary, it's sunday. please have some shame. >> i will not. >> he's coming over. >> now, why would he be doing that? >> because mary's waving at him. >> no. >> ladies. >> fix your hair. >> i'm dorothy vaughn, that's ms. jackson. and mrs. katherine. >> she's not married. she's a widow, with three beautiful little girls. so well behaved. angels on earth is like we like to call her. dorothy, slice of pie? >> excuse me. >> you already have a slice of pie. >> so it's so great you're doing this. i'm so glad you took this project. i'm so glad you took this podge. everybody took it.
because hollywood needs it. it's not a redo, but it's something. >> we need to see this story. we need little girls to see this story. we need little boys to see this story. we need people to know that history wasn't a bunch of white guys in a room. nasa was very diverse. nasa celebrates these women. these women are not hidden from nasa. nasa has been honoring these women for a long time. great to tell the general public that. >> guys, honor to meet you all. >> thank you. >> pharrell, the music gets to even me. >> we can keep the mugs? >> you can keep the mugs, we can get you hats. politics and culture are together. they're the same thing. this collection, whatever you think of it, culture and politics are together. we got to put it all together. merry christmas to everybody. >> thank you so much. >> i was just going to say, you're not mr. straight hour. we've been watching you for years. >> yes. >> and your interviews is and the way that you keep people straight is amazing, and when
people veer off and they don't answer the question there's no one that slices through it better than you. >> thank you. >> that's not in the script. we'll be right back. thank you. ♪ ♪ see ya next year. this season, start a new tradition.
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people that gives me the benefit of their thinking even when i'm not smart enough to accept it. i've known edward jess per, our political expert from boston since we worked together at the white house in the 1970s. we've been friends ever since. he's been in presidential campaigns from george mcgovern, sargent shriver, paul songs a. as a democrat by nurture and an independent by nature. he thinks for himself. he doesn't run with the pack. he spent the good part of the past presidential election giving me the benefit of his thinking. and his thinking would be that donald trump would be the winner. he was writing to me when the pundits were predicting a hillary clinton landslide. he e-mailed me the morning after the election he said that trump would get the nomination because he was the only performer, think about that word, performer out there in the field then. on st. patrick's day, he maled me this, we are awash in donald trump. he may be the best political operative in the modern era.
a mix of lee atwater and bill clinton, yet he's only beginning to be treated by the political insiders. who else was in trump's league during the primaries? on august 21th ed ream e-mailed me that hillary clinton has little improvement room. her image, her being is pretty much set in stone in the people's minds. not much is good for her outside the area of her supporters. trump is no longer la raza but his political raison d'etre, they'll still hammer him but not with the percentage or turnout she is expecting today. for hillary's gang, it will be much like the french generals defending the line. well, ten days before the election, ed wrote that he thought that trump could still win because all the public polling to the contrary, hillary clinton was not running away with it. even in the best of times when trump was saying the worst of
his stuff, killing himself, she was not opening up a significant lead. in his e-mail to me on october 27 was after an obscenely successful nonstrop run on trump by the national forces of morality he called them, i'm running into those who can't vote for hillary. also in that october 27 e-mail a proposal, could you secure, say, a half hour more of your show for a serious discussion of polling? when november 4th, the friday before the election ed wrote me hillary has to get enough black votes in the lock box before the old fashioned vote next tuesday and it appears she'll fail. she's not going to match obama's vote among blacks. why on earth did the clinton people ever think she would? every indication i get is everything is breaking for trump and has been from before the comey letter. if so, it's been my experience that late breaking waves are virtually immutable. everyone wants change, sad to say it may be as simple as that.
widening as i speak, with new names added on like a traffic lineup in manhattan. there's still no indication that donald trump is anywhere near to making one of the key decisions of his presidency, who will serve as his chief diplomat. vice president-elect mike pence ran through some of the top contenders yesterday. >> i think everyone that he's talked to and has been talked about, whether it be a rudy giuliani or mitt romney or general petraeus or senator corker or john bolten, and others, bring extraordinary background and qualities to this. >> nbc news reports that several new names have been added to that list, even if they remain outside contenders. the associated press, meanwhile, is reporting that prospects of rudy giuliani and mitt romney, they say, are fading. the new names include jon huntsman, who was critical of trump during the campaign, but who wasn't also reportedly in the mix, ceo of exxonmobil, rex
>> the bulk of the time was with the president-elect, donald trump. i found it an extremely interesting conversation. and to be continued. and i'm just going to leave it at that. >> for the latest on the transition, i'm joined by nbc's kristen welker. i don't know what's going on. all i know, kristen, the list gets longer. the ones that came to the vineyard earlier aren't getting much good time out of this. it must be very frustrating for rudy giuliani, for mitt romney, and the rest. your thoughts? what do you know? >> reporter: you can only imagine. of course, you had mitt romney dining with malpresident-elect trump last week. look, here's how to think about where things stand right now in terms of this race for the secretary of state. you have rudy giuliani and mitt romney who were really the two top contenders. but chris, as we've been reporting, trump world was so deeply divided over these two top contenders, a lot of people saw rudy giuliani as a lightning rod, too much of a loyalist and an insider.
too many people thought that mitt romney has been too sharply critical of donald trump during the campaign. so that's why you're starting to see those two contenders start to fall out of favor and the reason why president-elect donald trump is exploring new options, including jon huntsman. someone who was also critical of him, but of course, he's the former ambassador to china. interesting given that you have trump making that controversial phone call with taiwan. my sources telling me that huntsman didn't advise him prior to that call. but at the same time, huntsman's been supportive of the fact that he made it, saying that it could be a smart foreign policy decision, a warning to china, making it very clear that he's going to be tough with them. of course, a lot of critics on that front as well. and rex tillerson, the ceo of exxonmobil. he's going to be here tomorrow. but at this point in time, chris, huntsman and tillerson haven't met with trump, so they're not serious contenders yet. i think the names to really be focused on, petraeus, we know that donald trump felt very good about that meeting and as you
federal agencies. armstrong williams said, dr. carson feels he has no government experience, he's never run a federal agency. this is honesty. the last thing he would want to do is take a position that would cripple the presidency. you don't get honesty like that very often. when asked what made him qualify for the job at hud, dr. carson said this. >> i grew up in the inner city and have spent a lot of time there and have dealt with a lot of patients from that area. and recognize that we cannot have a strong nation if we have weak inner cities. >> well, during the 2016 republican primaries, carson's background in some of his past statements about his childhood came under fire from, guess who, donald trump. let's watch. >> he said that he's pathological and that he's got, basically, pathological disease. i don't want a person that's got pathological disease. i don't want it. at a fairly young age, 14, 15 years old. i didn't. i didn't.
he took a knife and he went after a friend and he lunged, he lunged that knife into the stomach of his friend. but lo and behold, it hit the belt! it hit the belt! and the knife broke. give me a break. if you try and hit the mother over the head with a hammer, your poll numbers go up. i never saw anything like it. this is the only election in history where you're better off if you stab somebody. what are we coming to. >> showmanship matters. >> joining me right now, a "washington post" callum, msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. i read your columns. and former senior strategist to rick santorum's presidential campaign, john brabender. let's talk about this, first of all, secretary of state really matters. let's talk about that. >> it does. >> i sometimes think he's auditioning for looks, appearances, who's going to look
right as my guy. bring mitt romney in, he seems very presidential, and he didn't really like him, apparently. and kellyanne conway seems to have some power. >> she apparently does. she spouts off and things either happen or don't happen. look, let's, for a change, let's take a slightly more charitable view. i hope he takes his time, actually. this is a man who's starting from zero on foreign policy. got no foreign policy experience, doesn't know anything about diplomat. the history of our relations with any country. he just don't know what's happening. >> you mean pakistan has a rivalry with india? you mean taiwan is an issue with china? >> yeah, exactly. so, when these people who do have some experience, i'm putting rudy giuliani aside, but mitt romney and general petraeus and others come in, jon huntsman, when he does come in, and they say, you know, this is my view, i hope he listens. i hope he's listening and considering and trying to figure out what kind of foreign policy
such bizarre directions. he's got john bolton, a neocon, all the way, a hawk, and goes all the way over to somebody else who seems like they don't have a foreign policy. how do you bring a neo conn -- does he know the difference between the two of them? >> i think he probably knows the difference, maybe not in detail, but you listen to these people. >> we were talking about mitt romn romney. mitt romney was so critical of a muslim ban. >> someone told me he would never take the job as long as there was a muslim ban in the works, because he morally opposed it. >> exactly. even if you call it something else, if it's really a muslim ban, i don't see how -- >> if you look what he's doing, he's not hiring by any logic, he's doing it by skill set. they have different skill sets. i think that's what he sees. the one thing all these people have in common, they're not somebody who's going to say, yes, sir. >> why would he consider a guy like huntsman, who was named ambassador to china by president obama, and then took the job.
makes a good case. >> like you, i've known ben carson. i didn't know his political views. a brilliant pediatric neurosurgeon, one of the best of his times. i think he has insane political views. and i would really worry about what he would try to implement as secretary of any department. >> we will see. over the weekend, a little light heartedness, "saturday night live" did it again, they targeted trump's transition effort. let's watch them. >> next i'm going to do what i promised my whole campaign and i'm going to build that swamp. >> don't you mean drain the swamp and build the wall? >> no, that's too many things. just smoosh them together. smoosh! smoosh! >> well, once again, trump didn't like it. he tweeted an aggressive reaction to the show. just tried watching "saturday night live," unwatchable!
totally bias! not funny. and the baldwin impersonation just can't get any worse. sad. today trump tweeted in defense of his twitter habit. he wrote, if the press would cover me accurately and honorably, i would have far less reason to tweet. sadly, i don't know if that will happen. john brabender, we are in for a tweeting president. >> i think that's wrong. of all the things he's done recently, to tweet about china makes no sense whatsoever. i think his picks are great, i think he's doing a lot of things great with transition. i wish someone would take that thing away from him. >> you would have to sleep with him to do it. he does it at 5:00 in the morning. >> i'm just saying, it doesn't help. >> let's talk about a real thing. ronald reagan succeed eed as a president because he made a choice to pick a really serious chief of staff, who was willing to say, mr. president, that's not a smart thing to do this week. focus on the economy, on job, on cutting taxes and stay away from
politics. whether you're a big progressive or not, you don't want a president of the united states starting wars on his watch. >> i think we can all agree. >> he has to be careful, because other countries are paying attention. they'll take it seriously. >> they don't know him like we do. anyway, please, when you hear our president talk, don't take it literally. >> well, see, that's a problem. >> can you translate into portuguese. >> might be brilliance in there. >> there is a problem. >> coming up, trump's call with a leader of taiwan wasn't the spur of the moment congratulations call he made it out to be. turns out it was long planned. this is a serious problem. could be an opening gambit in a major shift in strategy over how we deal with china, probably the most important relationship we've got in the world right now. plus, joe biden moments ago said he'll run for president in 2020. we'll get the latest on that in just a moment. we'll see what that means. this is "hardball," the place for politics. world ugly and messy.
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just moments ago, vice president joe biden was up on capitol hill and said he will run for president in 2020. nbc's kelly o'donnell was with the vice president and joins us now. >> okay, kelly, for real, for fun, for what? >> reporter: that's what we're trying to figure out. the vice president was here presiding over the senate while a bill that has now been named in the honor of his son, beau, who died of cancer, a cancer-related treatment bill, so he was here and it was sort of an emotional setting. he came off the senate floor, a small group of us were talking to him, asking him about what did this mean and so forth. i said, you know, these are the final days of your time in office, did that add to the emotion? and he began talking about what it means for him in the senate. and he said, i'm going to run again, and we actually laughed, assuming he was teasing, thinking that his career in public life had come to an end. i'll read exactly what he said. he said, i love this place.
there was a question, are you going to run again? he said, yeah, i am going to run, in 2020. for what, the question. he said, for president. what the hell, man. and i said, mr. vice president, we're going to run with that if you drop something with that. okay, go ahead. circled back around again, mr. vice president, were you kidding? his answer was this. first of all, he paused for four long seconds as he thought about what he was going to say. "i'm not committing to not running. i'm not committing to anything p p. i learned a long time ago that fate has a strange way of intervening." chris, as you understand in the senate, there are places where no cameras were committed. so i recorded the audio on my iphone and i believe we have a clip of that so you can hear it and see what you think based on his voice. >> i'm going to run in 2020. so -- >> for what? >> for president. [ laughter ] >> so, what the hell, man. anyway.
>> we're going to run with that, sir, you know, if you drop that. >> that's okay. that's okay. >> just to be clear, were you kidding about running for president in 2020? >> i'm just, i'm not committing not to run. i'm not committing to anything. i learned a long time ago, fate has a strange way of intervening. >> fate has a strange way of intervening. he's not going to claim he's not going to run. it's open to possibility. he seems like he wants us to think he might run. >> that was clearly my impression. his body language, i was looking him right in the eye. he understood, when i said, mr. vice president, we're going to run with that, meaning, if you're messing around having fun, this is going to be a headline, so please think about that. and my sense is that he wants to keep that door open. now, he's 74 years old now. now the facts of the election have played out, it's not even a month since the election. there is, i think, in a world if hillary clinton had been president, certainly he would not have challenged her for re-election, but now with donald
trump a republican, about to take office, might he reconsider it? so, it is tantalizing delicious for those of us who like politics and have watched biden's long time in public life and how passionate he is about it. we also saw that he really struggled mightily about the decision not to run in the primary against hillary clinton and bernie sanders, and it had a great deal to do with the loss of his son and the healing his family needed. he was teary-eyed talking about beau with us just a short time ago. so my takeaway is that he wasn't kidding. it's not that commitment to run, but he wanted us to know, he has not closed that door. that was my sense of it, standing right next to him. >> you know what would be great, kelly, if they would take a poll in the next couple of weeks, some big pollster, gallup or somebody else, and asked people who might run, who should run, i bet you he leads the pack and that would be a nice present for joe biden. i want to see where it plays on the front page tomorrow. top of the fold or bottom of the
fold. we'll see. we'll be right back after this. then she came to louisiana as a slave. i became curious where in africa she was from. so i took the ancestry dna test to find out more about my african roots. the ancestry dna results were really specific. they told me all of these places in west africa. i feel really proud of my lineage, and i feel really proud of my ancestry. ancestry has many paths to discovering your story, get started for free at ancestry.com [burke] hot dog. seen it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
this was a courtesy call. the democratically elected president of taiwan called to congratulate the president-elect. -- >> so nothing new should be read into it? >> well, i don't think so. i think i would just say to our counterparts in china that this was, this was a moment of courtesy, the president-elect talked to president tsai two weeks ago in the same manner. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was vice president-elect mike pence yesterday on "meet the press." he was downplaying, of course, a telephone conversation we're all talking about now between president-elect donald trump and the president of taiwan, in what is being described as a breach of diplomatic protocol. it's always dangerous with the chinese. it's not about matters, it's about war.
"the washington post" reported that the call was an intentionally provocative move and was the product of months of new strategy with taiwan. chinese considers taiwan to be part of china. trump is now the first u.s. president to have spoken with the taiwanese leaders ever since way back when in the '70s. china responded -- '79, it was -- by calling the conversation a petty move. but trump defended himself and the phone call in a flurry of tweets over the weekend, saying the president of taiwan called me today to wish me congratulations on winning the presidency. thank you. and then he goes, interesting how the united states sells taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment, but i should not accept a congratulatory call. did china ask us if it was okay to devalue their currency, making it hard for their companies to compete, heavily tax their products going into our country. the u.s. doesn't tax them, or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the south china
sea. i don't think so. that's trump. rising the whole thing up. andy kard was white house chief of staff around j. bush and andrea, thank you. we've avoided fighting with russia since the cold war start going. and we've also voided being too menacing towards china, because it's a big country with a lot of people. and we saw what happened in the korean war, where we just couldn't match their numbers. that they're willing to throw into combat. so we've tried to avoid that. are we avoiding trouble with china right now or looking for it? >> i think we're looking a bigger deal out of this than we should. and i don't think it was wrong for president-elect trump to talk to the president of taiwan. but the united states does not recognize taiwan the way we recognize china with two systems. one china, two systems. that's been a very delicate balance for a very long time. i'm not sure that
president-elect trump understand that balance in the conversation that he had. but i don't fault him for accepting the phone call. and yes, i'm sure it was a contrived phone call. i'm sure that it was set up, but -- >> he wasn't being punked. >> but there should be recognition. we made a commitment to taiwan a very long time ago. we do offer some protection to them. and we do have a relationship with them. but it's a relationship that is not meant to offense china. and that's a diplomatic balance. so this is unusual diplomacy. i had the privilege of representing the president of the united states at the president's inauguration in taiwan. i did not represent the people of the united states or represent the united states government p government, i represented the president. and that is a balance that has been such that we've maintained a good relationship with beijing and with taipei, and is not an easy thing to do. so words matter and i always tell the president, or a
candidate for president, taste your words before you spit them out. the diplomats help you taste those words. >> anyway, i always wonder, what speed does china move at? do they get roused up or think long term, make decisions and act long-term and don't worry about these little flea-flicker things like a phone call. >> it's a little of both. they're looking at a long game here and have been studying trump for years and have been trying to figure out what kind of leader would he be should he win. and so, they will continue to do that. and look at -- look far into the future, at the relationship with the united states, that they expect to have 30 years from now, when they see themselves as our full military and economic peer, not only in the pacific, but in the world. and are ready to challenge the united states much more frontally, three decades from now. they don't want to do that now. but, on the flea-flicker point, yeah, this really ticked them
off. and they expressed that first, i thought, very sort of amusingly to president obama, their first call was to the white house, saying, hey, how come you can't keep your guy in line here. of course, obama had nothing to do with it, whatsoever. but in the chinese way of thinking, obama's the head of state. he should be able to -- >> do you think somebody in the media that has a big name, today's walter lipman or whoever that might be, should put out a column around the world, an apb, like what the police puts out, don't take what trump says seriously for a few months, because it isn't that serious. >> trump has tried to do that himself. >> corey lewandowski over the weekend said, don't take him literally. you in the press take him literally. it's not fair. >> what are we supposed to do? >> you've got a word processor, take notes, and go with words. >> it's a big challenge. it will be a challenge for everyone who is working around donald trump. but i also think that he's
reflecting what's happening in the world. we are a world without discipline right now when it comes to war. >> white house press secretary josh earnest was asked about that phone call today. here's what trump had to say. >> i think it's hard to determine exactly what the aim was of the president-elect, and the vice president-elect and his campaign manager were, with when asked about this over the weekend, were told that this was a courtesy call and that the president-elect was merely returning that call. "the washington post" today tells a different story with sop trump aides indicating that this was a long-planned call and that this is part of a broader strategic effort. it's unclear exactly what the strategic effort is, what the aim of this strategic effort is, and it's unclear what exactly potential benefit could be experienced by the united
states, china, or taiwan, but i'll leave that to them to explain. >> i've got to ask you something now that i've got you here, andy kard, i like to grab people. andy kard, what happened to the republican party in new england? i was counting the senators from new england anymore that are republican, you've got susan collins left. and all of the states are women -- >> great governors, charlie baker in massachusetts, chris sununu coming in in new hampshire. >> okay, okay, what happened to the republican representation in the united states senate from new england? it's gone! >> we need more of it, yes, i admit that. >> what happened? >> well, the republican party has got to get back -- >> it's moved south. >> -- where it's an inclusive party rather than an exclusive party. and donald trump's victory actually proved to open some doors that hadn't been opened for a long time. if you look across the nation, he attracted people that haven't been part of the republican establishment for a long time and got engaged. that will help to redefine the
party. the most popular governor in the united states today happens to be charlie baker, a republican governor in massachusetts. >> i thought you were going to be governor. >> you were almost alone. >> andy kard, who had the distinction of being the chief of staff, which is one of the most important positions in american life with president bush, the second. andy, thanks for coming. and anne gearan, thank you. where republicans and democrats can work together. this is my dream. i think there are things like infrastructure and things like that that they can actually do together. after the bitter campaign, what issues can they work together on? this is "hardball," the place for politics.
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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. the death toll in friday night's warehouse fire has risen to 36. officials fear more bodies could be still in the rubble. tribal leaders are asking nosh-sue protesters to leaf the north dakota camp where they've been demonstrating for months now. the standing rock sioux successfully blocked the dakota access pipeline from being built near the reservation after the army corps of engineers denied a permit. drivers in portland, oregon, are taking caution, snow is creating a slippery situation in some areas. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." in the aftermath of the most contentious elections in memory,
both sides of the aisle, democrats and republicans, are trying to meet somewhere in the middle. according to the pew research center, contempt for the opposing side has been on the rise. nearly 60% of republicans have a very unfavorable view of democrats. and nearly 55% of democrats have a very unfavorable view of republicans. the group no labels hopes to be the antidote to the rising partisan divide, by bringing republicans, democrats, and independents together to pass problem-solving legislation. over the weekend, there was a glimmer of hope in that regard, here's what the speaker of the house, paul ryan, and the democratic leader in the house, nancy pelosi, had to say. >> i really think we have a great opportunity in front of us to fix problems, produce results, and improve people's lives. that's why we're here in the first place. that's what's going to matter at the end of the day. >> we will engage where we can and we will oppose where we cannot. >> joining me now is adam kinzinger. he's a republican member of the
congress from illinois and he's with the no-labels problem solvers caucus. congressman, thank you for trying on this one. i would like to ask you about two issues that i think can be dealt with quickly. i want to go to the one that people think is complicated, i don't think it is. immigration. every country in the world has a work permit to work in that country. i can't go to swaziland tomorrow and just move in and start running a business. you've got to get permission. so you should have permission, no matter how liberal the system is. i think we have to all agree, every country has a right to limit to some extent who comes in the country. not to be discriminatory, just the numbers. and then you can say, if you're going to work here and not become a citizen, you need a work permit. if you want to become a citizen, that'll take longer. here's the question. why's it so hard. why can't they just do that? why do we have to talk about walls and deportation. the real problem is illegal hiring is in a magnet in this country for people to come here and once they're here, no one
wants to throw them out unless they're felons. so can't we agree? >> i think the way you phrased it and when you talk about kind of a comprehensive, it's gotten a bad wrap, but a comprehensive reform to immigration, including border security, making sure that's important, but figuring out what to do with those here and finding a system that works on the work side of it. it's an 80% american issue. so i think, you know, right now, it's kind of contention in terms of, we have to build a wall thing, and then, you know, was just contention on both sides. i think when it settles down and we kind of take a deep breath, that's an issue we can attack. but i think there's a lot of big issues we can attack first, and i think we're going to have a really good opportunity to do that. >> well, 12-foot walls lead to 13-foot ladders, right? >> yeah. >> so i don't think anybody thinks there's a wall high enough -- the chinese wall didn't stop anybody. let me ask you about this other one. i do think it comes down to hiring. people come here for a job, if you can get one legally. my job is, everybody that's here now with work permits, no more
deportations except for felons, give people work permits. if they want to become a citizen, they've got to get in line behind people from poland and everyone else who wants to come here. that's my chris matthews theory. let's talk about infrastructure. we have an almost $20 trillion gdp. we're getting close to that range. what would we needle in terms of a real make america great infrastructure campaign? what would it take? >> i think you'll have to have a bipartisan buy-in on this. this is why it's so important to say, republicans, we took the chamber out here, we have the presidency now, we can't just focus on running only our agenda through. we're going to have to reach radio across the aisle. because on infrastructure, we can all agree that, you know, look, it's in the constitution that it's the role of the federal government to provide post offices and post roads, which is obviously infrastructure. the problem is, how do we pay for it? and i think there's really ways to get this done, whether it's bringing some of the corporate profits that are parked overseas and taxing them at a lower rate, or even things like having grown up discussions about how we're paying for that infrastructure in terms of revenue collection.
i think if we get some courage out here, a lot of people have courage, but we're going to need some big courage to tackle these big issues and i think it can easily be done, we have to be willing to do it. >> how do you overcome the fact that democrats don't want to spend money and republicans aren't trusted to spend it. >> you have to be honest with the american people. so, you know, if, for instance, we have a program where we're spending money and need transparency to show where it is, i think we have to very aggressively try to get rid of -- >> i'm with you. >> yeah, and you have all of these different programs that are redundant. let's combine them together and make government effective and efficient and i think we'll earn the trust of the american people. >> people want to see what gets built, not just where you spent the money. the problem with the obama stimulus package, no one can think of what gets built. it gets peeed away, if you will, to use a bad phrase. up next, when we come back, the "hardball" roundtable will be here with the latest twists and
turns. and also, this joe biden for president thing that just started with kelly o'donnell, we have got to get to that, because he sounded serious. let's find out what's going on there. we'll be back with the roundtable. little dakota's nose was quivering in fear.
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jon huntsman. jay newton small and jeremy peters, a political reporter with "the new york times." speak with authority. who's got the best shot to be secretary of state at this hour? >> the best shot, it changes hour to hour. the trump camp is very much a camp divided at this point. there are the lines that have been drawn for the last couple of weeks, where -- >> you mean the factions? >> there are those who are pro-romney. those who think, give it to rudy, he's been a loyal supporter all along and adored by the grassroots. some want to see a military figure like a general, like general kelly in there, or the huntsman thing was curious to me today. because that to me showed that there is real division in the ranks. that didn't leak intentionally. that leaked accidentally. >> is that just to tick off huntsman -- tick off romney, because they hate each other. >> it's true. that would be the ultimate way to needle romney for not
supporting him. i assume this circle is widening because trump is not sold on any of the four people we were told were finalists. the longer it goes on, the less likely it is he goes to giuliani or romney. >> how about someone traditionally qualified? is there anybody on that list? >> huntsman was reasonably positive about trump, when most of the establishment republican was not. he was not a never-trumper. he spoke in a positive way about trump, early on, before he even started winning things. so while he wouldn't be a favorite of conservative republicans, maybe that gives him a little bit of traction. >> let's talk loyalty. huntsman was named ambassador to china, a hell of a post, by barack obama. he then quit the post and ran against barack obama. would you like that as a story line as someone who's applying for a job, jay? >> so are you saying that one of these guys are going to go ahead and challenge trump? >> no, but i wouldn't think he would have a loyalty reputation. >> well, look, he named nikki haley to his cabinet, who is a u.n. ambassador.
he was definitely a huge critic of donald trump's. so -- and there are -- and part of what he wants here, to some degree, is somebody who can bridge the establishment. somebody who can talk to both sides of the party. >> he wants someone who looks the party, too. >> boy, you are right where i'm at. i think this guy's appearances -- it's like, with all the women candidates, all very attractive. it's the way he looks at things. trump tower is gold. everything about his family is gold, and everything has to look right. >> these men they project strength and virility and especially -- >> swank. >> petraeus, i was told after he met with petraeus and the same was true of john kelly, he admires his appearance. to them, they embody what trump sees in a trump secretary of state. >> you know who's like this? you know who's like this? nixon. he was in love with john connelly, because he looked like secretary of the treasury. you're laughing at me! you think i'm off something here?
>> no! >> this is a television guy. >> he looks like a television guy. who looks like -- romney, huntsman. >> they look the part. anyway, let's talk about something. we all like uncle joe. joe biden said he's going to run for president in 2020. >> we all love joe biden, but this seems unlikely to me. >> i mean, 2020, he'll be 78 years old. that's got to be the person ever running for -- >> he'll just be beating the house leadership at the turn. because they're all older than him. clyburn's older than him, pelosi's older than him. they're all older than biden. >> really? >> don't argue with me. i just checked it, because they were taking heat in this case. 77, 76, 78. it's unbelievable. >> the democrats have to eventually move on to a new generation. >> when would that be? >> this might be the moment. >> maybe after a huge bruising
loss. >> i don't know. jeremy, who's going to be the next democratic nominee for president? >> i don't think it's going to be biden. something tells me tonight this was more about being caught up in the emotion of that moment. a bill that just passed that wa dedicated to his son and i think that could have gotten to him. >> and i think his son would have asked him to run. what a great guy. joe biden, i hope you take care of yourself. up next, these three will tell me something i don't know. ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ ♪ gaviscon is a proven heartburn remedy that gives you fast-acting, long-lasting relief. it immediately neutralizes acid
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well, it happened, north carolina governor pat mcccrory ended his campaign today and helped roy cooper get into the job. and we'll be right back.
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talked. i heard from both of their staffs when they do talk on the floor of the senate one thing they could always talk about was a mutual love of the nats. that's the one thing they bonded overall the way to the end. >> that's something i don't want to know. i'm just kidding. go ahead. >> talk of jon huntsman as secretary of state is probably not going to happen. the real talk is what jon huntsman might do in 2018 and may primary orrin hatch. >> if hatch runs again? >> that's what some people are speculating, absolutely. he would be a really strong contender. hatch is beloved in utah but he's getting up there in age. >> i think beloved may be overstating. >> you're biased. >> susan, thank you, dear. you match up with the -- what are these flowers? >> poinsettias. >> and jeremy peters and jay, my paul. when we return, a shameless display by the people vying to be picked by trump for any job.
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so we haven't had a chance to digest it. but the attorney general in his confirmation hearings was very clear with a one-word answer when asked by a senator whether he had contact with the russians in any way, shape, or form. he said no, period. no condition, no modification. so obviously that turns out to not be accurate there is no reason to believe that jeff sessions in the confirmation hearing was trying to hide something. he may simply have forgotten. but it does mean two things. number one, it adds to the incredible weight of evidence that the administration is not credible on these issues. remember a couple of weeks ago when we heard that michael flynn was talking to the russian ambassador simply to wish him merry christmas. and of course that turns out not to be true. and michael flynn is no longer national security adviser. so this white house has a very, very significant credibility problem. and it's with respect to attorney general sessions, what this means, and again, it's too early to say that he perjured himself or that he meant to do this. but it very clearly indicates that he must now recuse himself just the way the former attorney
general made is simply not true. this is of course how mike flynn went down, right? the deputy attorney general said mike flynn has said something to the vice president about his phone calls with the russian ambassador, which is simply not true. that opens the possibility that russia might therefore seek to blackmail the national security adviser. so you see people throughout the government, and leaks are a problematic thing. but they're raising their hands and saying wait a minute, what we're hearing out of the white house is simply not consistent with the facts that i know. >> congressman at one of your town hall meetings during the break, someone who was there wrote this about one of your answers. as an answer to a question about demagoguery, he said he studied aught theirtarians, and it starts with the erosion of the judicial system and the media, as well adds the dispelling of false information. then all it takes is a terrorist attack and he believes that's inevitable, followed by martial law. no one is linking your words
here with donald trump. but my question to you, you're obviously speaking to a question as an educated man. do your thoughts go there more often these days? >> well, brian, i was responding to a lot of people in my town hall who made the very accurate observation that when a leader seeks to cloud the truth, when a leader seeks to make -- disorient you about what is true and what is not true, when a leader seeks to damage the institutions and the civic associations of a country, the media, the judiciary, i mean this goes back to de tocqueville. that is the way that that leader erodes democracy and becomes autocratic. i was also trying to dispel what i heard in town hall meetings, which we're all hearing in town hall meetings, that this administration is fascist and they're inevitably going to wind up being authoritarian. and my point was simply watch for those signs. let's just stop the inflammatory language. but let's be sensitive to the fact that a lot of what is happening here, and let me offer
this as a thought. what do the cia, the media and the fbi all have in common? these are people -- these are institutions who imperfect as though they may be, their essential mission is to get at the truth. and of course the trump administration has gone to war with all of those institutions whose essential mission is to get at the truth. and we as americans, republicans and democrats should just be very, very concerned about that, and very careful about what happens in the future. for example, if there is some sort of terrorist event, or if there is belligerence abroad that creates the atmosphere for this administration to take additional steps to concentrate power or additional steps that might be considered autocratic. >> congressman jim himes, fourth termer from the district of connecticut and democrat on the telligence committee. thank you, congressman, very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, brian. >> i appreciate it. over to andrea mitchell. you have some of the response tonight, the pushback from the trump administration on these stories we've been talking
about. >> especially on the sessions story. now specifically on that, a spokeswoman for attorney general sessions said there was absolutely nothing misleading about his answer. last year the senator had over 25 conversations with foreign ambassadors as a senior member of the armed services committee. she lists the country. then she says he was asked during the hearing about communications between russia and the trump campaign. not about meetings he took as a senator and a member of the armed services committee. however, at the same time, adam schiff, who you know is the top democrat on house intelligence says if the reports are accurate that attorney general sessions, a prominent surrogate for donald trump, met with ambassador kislyak during the campaign and failed to disclose that fact during his confirmation, it's essential he recuse himself. this is not even a close call. it is a must. so things are moving apace. >> michael mcfaul, you served a mittedly the last democratic
president as ambassador to russia. having heard, taken in our conversation tonight and sampled the news breaking on this front, how would you recommend with your knowledge of washington as it is, how would you recommend this get pulled apart and looked at and investigated? what's the vehicle to your mind? >> i believe it has to be a bipartisan independent commission, not unlike what we had after september 11th. i think it's good news that the house intelligence committee has decide move forward. and i saw the parameters they put out. that's a good sign. but at the end of the day, having it outside of partisan circles, that it can be investigated and really dig down. you know, as i read all these stories, it's fantastic stories that really people are doing incredible work to get more and more news to us all. but it's also unnamed sources. it's all people deep in the intelligence services. and we need those people to go
from being leakers to witnesses. we need to know the truth. well need to know the name for instance, of who met with whom in europe. i know, you know, that was tell me a lot if i knew the names, let alone the content of those conversations. and another piece of this, lots of senior obama administration officials, some of whom are my close friends know a lot about this story. an independent investigation would give them the opportunity, the commission would give them the opportunity to also investigate and question those people about what they know and what they don't know. >> former ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you very much for becoming -- for being on our broadcast, being part of this conversation tonight, as always. chris matthews, you were talking about sourcing. the ambassador raised the same thing. these anonymous sources can only last so long. >> yeah, and i think it's always fascinating to try to figure out whose giving us the information.
and i was taken with this, because -- >> it jumps out. >> the attorney general's office is basically the justice department's heavily laden with civil servants, of course. but they wouldn't know about his contacts prior to becoming attorney general. the people that would know and would actually offer this up to a report worry be people who had come to the justice department with him. and that's extraordinary. and we're hearing a lot more about political appointees as sources. andrea knows more about this. but political sources, political appointees ratting out, if you want to put it in this vernacular, their own people is pretty extraordinary at this point early in the administration. >> i'm just going to -- we're going to point out that wherever kislyak went, he was being listened to by our counter intelligence officials from the fbi. >> right. >> and so those people would know whom he met with. and that would be another source of information. >> at the fbi. for that -- do you this attribution to justice department officials would cover
fbi, or would it be that misleading on purpose? >> i think it would be an accurate description. >> 80 would be accurate, of course, but it would be sleading e idea is enforcement officials and counter intelligence officials are something that would give you little indication, i would think? >> unless the people were nervous. >> this sort of puts it back to his people. i do think this whole question of trying to find, and this is something the american government hasn't figured out yet. how do you find within a government that has been elected and appointed through a confirmation process someone extraneous to that who is some sort of arc angle figure that is going to come in and find justice in a better way than somebody who is part of the political process? and we've gone to these extremes, archie cox and people like that and trying to find people, lawrence walsh. inevitably you find out later they do have political connections. archie cox was the top speech writing manager of the whole kennedy campaign. you know, you find out these people are connected politically.
>> it's not one person, if i could. i was the executive director of the commission on the prevention of wmd proliferation and terrorism. a horrible long name. but it australia a child of the 9/11 commission to look at wmd and terrorism and how we could prevent terrorists from getting wmd. you need a bipartisan commission, republicans and democrats selected by the leadership of the house and the senate to do the work. because, honestly, even the senate, the intelligence committee, the select intelligence committee for 9/11, even they were politicized. and number one, they couldn't share everything for intelligence reasons. but number two, they were because of their positions constrained. and the president could always say to the people in his party, why are you guys doing that? if you have a truly independent commission, then paul ryan can't get those phone calls in the middle of the night from president trump saying why are you letting those investigators say that or do that. he can say that's an independent commission. >> the 9/11 commission is the model. >> tremendous burden on any one person.
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>> i do have a relationship. and i can tell you that he's very interested in what we're doing here today. >> i've never spoken to him. i don't know anything about him other than he will respect me. >> i with us in moscow a couple months ago. you know, i own the miss universe pageant. they treated me so great. putin even sent me a president. beautifupresent with a beautiful note. >> i got to know him very well. we were on "60 minutes." >> we did "60 minutes" together. by the way, not together, together. meaning he was probably shot in moscow and i was shot in new york. >> i spoke directly and indirectly with president putin who could not have been nicer. >> i don't know putin. i never met putin. this is not my best friend. >> just some of the questions and answers over the last few years. two weeks ago "the new york times" reported there are four people, trump associates who the fbi is closely examined over potential contacts with russian
intelligence officials during the campaign season. all four men have strongly denied improper contact with russian officials. although they aren't telling all of them the same story. tonight our own chris hayes introduces us to those four, starting with former trump campaign adviser roger stone. >> i'm wondering how you would characterize your relationship to the president? >> a friend. a friend of trump, fot. >> trump associate one, roger stone. long-time gop strategist and self-described dirty trickster with a tattoo of richard nixon on his back and a history of inflammatory and bigoted statements. roger stone is a close ally of conspiracy theorist alex jones and helped arrange trump's 2015 appearance on jones' show. >> well, roger is a good guy. he is a patriot. and believes strongly in that strong nation, a lot of the things that i believe in.
>> reporter: stone left trump's campaign last august. the campaign says he was fired. he says he wasn't. though he remains an informal adviser. after he was named as an fbi target by "the times", he insisted to me he has absolutely nothing to do with russia. >> i have had no contacts from russians or intermediaries for russians. i have no russian clients, no russian communications. >> it's all a complete sham investigation. >> reporter: trump associate two, carter page. page spent three years in russia working as an investment banker for merrill lynch. that's him speaking at a business school in moscow last july. a few months before that speech, trump told "the washington post" that page was part of his foreign policy team. >> we heard you might be announcing your foreign policy advisory team soon. >> do you want i could give you some of the names? carter page, ph.d. >> reporter: now, however, the white house denies that page had a role in the campaign.
>> carter page is an individual who the president-elect does not know and was put on notice months ago by the campaign. >> reporter: page, who maintains he was part of trump's foreign policy team last week denied covert communications with russia, saying claims to the contrary were planted by the president's enemy. >> yes, i know a lot of people. but i know a lot of people in china, in africa, in middle east. >> so you are completely innocent as not charged? >> this is a complete smear campaign. >> we cannot make russia an enemy. >> reporter: trump associate three, michael flynn. the now former national security adviser resigned last month after revelations he had lied to the vice president about his conversations with the russian ambassador to the united states. >> michael flynn, general flynn is a wonderful man. >> reporter: while he admits discussing sanctions with the russian ambassador during the transition, flynn, like the others denies speaking to russian intelligence during the
campaign. though he was reportedly paid $40,000 for a speech in moscow in 2015 that included a dinner with vladimir putin. in honor of the russian state sponsored tv network rt, where he has made numerous appearances. >> i'm not working for any clients right now other than mr. trump. >> trump associate four, paul manafort. his former campaign manager who worked as a consultant for russian-aligned former ukrainian president victorian kovacico wi yanukovych. manafort denies knowingly speaking to russian intelligence, but it's not like these people wear badges that say i'm a russian intelligence officer. >> paul manafort was replaced long before the election took place. >> our friend chris hayes with that reporting to set up this next conversation. with us tonight pulitzer prize winning investigative journalist david kay johnson who has been delving into the trump
campaign's financial ties with russia. david, we keep saying this is highly unusual, this is unprecedented for a president at the six-week mark to have this much interest and investigation. but how much broader in your mind should this go? >> oh, i think we need to thoroughly and openly investigate donald's 30-year involvement with russians and all the money he has received. to channel richard nixon, people have got to know if their president is compromised. and donald has received hundreds of millions of dollars from the russian oligarchs. he just appointed as his commerce secretary wilbur ross, who is the vice-chairman of one of the biggest banks involved in laundering russian money. the other vice-chairman was an appointee of vladimir putin. a disgraced german banker from deutsche bank right after the
bank was fined $650 million for russian moneylaundering. all of that was laid out by jim henry in a report at my news service d.c. report that well ahead of everybody else's reporting on this on television. and there is a more here that we haven't look at. the icelandic bank scandal traces back. trump's soho hotel into the icelandic bank zma ii iic scand? there is a lot -- >> hey, i'm sorry. there is a ring of bad weather along the east coast of the united states. this got to us last night as well. and between us and rochester, we have a band of bad weather so bad that it is interfering with our ability to talk to david cay johnston by satellite. we apologize for that. we'll take another break and see if we can reestablish.
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right up to 2016,ow much of the questions you rsed before we were interrupted by mother nature would be answered? >> a great deal. we would know where trump is getting money, where he has borrowed money, who he has paid interest to, who his partners are, who the 500 plus business entities he is involved in, what relationships they have. we need to see trump's returns back to the 1990s. the congress can do this under a 1920s law in private. and then we need public hearings about donald's 30 years of involvement with the russians. >> and there is no one to blame but the american people, correct, that we didn't demand of a candidate for president which what has become the modern political standard, and that is you release your tax returns. >> absolutely. and here is the question to ask. why are the republicans so eager to not know what's in the tax returns, as you saw with chairman nunez and others talking about these
investigations? as i said before, you know, quoting nixon, people have got to know their president is not a crook. >> david cay johnston, thank you very much for bearing with us, especially with the bad weather right overhead. david, thank you. >> thank you, brian. >> we've been talking after all about donald trump and vladimir putin. trump has praised vladimir putin, but nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel talked to a man who says putin is not worthy of that praise. he is with us again from moscow tonight. richard? >> reporter: well, there is another way of looking at this entire situation, and it is coming up in the conversation that you've been having tonight with all the guests in that it's all about the money. great fortunes have been made in this country, particularly by a small group of individuals around president vladimir putin. and they have proven time and time again they will g to great lengths to protect that money.
communism fell hard in russia. and since it did, business here has been profitable, glamorous, and at times deadly. bill brouter from chicago knows that well. he made and lost a lot of money in russia and is openly accusing the russian government of crimes ranging from robbery to murder. >> they have the resource of a mafia organization with the resources of one of the most powerful countries in the world. >> reporter: to understand how and why what he calls the mafia state was born, he says you have to go back to the dying days of the soviet union when everything in russia was suddenly for sale and at a bargain. he moved to moscow and started buying. >> eventually i went from nothing to running the largest investment fund in the country with $4.5 billion invested in their stock market. >> reporter: but the age of grab all you can and carry couldn't last forever. it ended when a former secret agent, vladimir putin was appointed president.
brouder thought he was the reformer who would save russia from corruption. but pretty soon he says he realized that putin was simply building a power base by enriching loyal oligarchs while crushing others. >> he was selectively picking off his enemies. >> reporter: and eventually brouder's name was add dodd the list. in 2005 he landed at a moscow airport and discovered he wasn't welcome in putin's russia anymore. >> they put me on a plane, deport me back to london and declare me a threat to national security. >> reporter: did they tell you why? >> no. >>. >> reporter: why do you think? >> because i expose corruption. >> reporter: he says his company was soon picked apart. >> i went out and hired the smartest lawyer i could find, a young man named sergei to help me investigate. >> reporter: but when the young lawyer started asking too many questions, he was arrested. >> they put him in cells with no heat, no window panes in december in moscow. so he nearly froze to death.
they chained him to a bed and eight riot guards with rubber batons beat him to death. >> reporter: his horrible death struck a chord in washington, especially among russia hawks like senator john mccain who helped pass the magnitsky act, sanctioning russians who were involved in or profited from the lawyer's death. he showed us neighborhoods where he says russian oligarchs keep their money in high end properties. >> it's bricks and mortar place where bad guys keep their money. >> reporter: now he hopes these so-called safe deposit homes can be seized. brouder spends much of his time and money lobbying for sanctions to be placed on russian businesses. he believes the russians will kill to protect their corrupt businesses. do you have any reason to believe that you could be targeted? >> yeah, i've received numerous threats. they do poisoning. they do car crashes. they do fake suicides. what they like to do is kill
people and have it be plausibly deniable that there was a killing. >> reporter: russian investigations have concluded that the lawyer magnitsky was not murdered. and president putin said that one would think that no one died in american prisons. brian? >> of course there is a dichotomy here. the audience in this country and how we view that story you just aired and the audience where you are. where are the russian people on this topic? >> well, the russiansnow that there is a small circle of oligarchs who are very powerful, who run a lot of businesses, have influence in putin. and there is a different way of looking at this state. if you talk to critics in russia and abroad, they will say you can't think of russia as a normal state, that it is a state that is designed to make money and to protect those fortunes,
that it is a state that consumes a kleptocracy has it has been called that also has a foreign policy. now that is mixed in with national interests. that is mixed in with putin's ambitions as well. so i think russians are fairly ambivalent or fairly confused about how to see their foreign policy. they know there is a powerful group of oligarchs willing to go to great means. but they don't know exactly where the oligarchs' interests end and where this idea that putin wants to expand greater russia begins. >> a lot of history there. wish we had time to delve into it. some of it is in not trying to sell magazines, but the current remnick hart in the new yorker. richard engel, thank you as a always. we also asked marcia guesson to be part of the conversation. she is the author of several books on russia, including the man without a face: the unlikely rise of vladimir putin.
masha, it was your article in "the new york times" that shook some of us and got our attention. the part that really got my attention was the roots of fascism, the things that half to happen, the argument that is made and made again and again and disseminated that is the kind of predicate. can you go into that a little bit? >> so one thing that vladimir putin and donald trump share outside of any conspiracies that may or may not exist is right out there in the open, and that's their attitude toward government, toward democracy and toward the way the countries are constituted. one thing that putin has traffick in harkens back to the 1920s and '30s, and that's the belief that the world is rotten, that everyone is acting in their craven self-interests, that there is no such thing as right and wrong, there are only winners and losers.
and that's very much what we hear trump saying. and, you know, when trump responded to fox interview question about vladimir putin being a killer by saying, you know, is this country so innocent? that was such an extraordinary expression of the kind of moral equivalence and the belief that the world is rotten that we've never seen a president of this country express. >> let me talk about that or ask you about it in macro term, not a moral term. it's said what putin wants is a world order like we had before world war two, when the big powers, the colonial power, the french, the british, the portuguese, the italians attempting it and the russians and the german, big powers left other big pyres lone. you grab yours, i'll grab mine. we'll let a few new people in the block grab a couple like mussolini can grab some territory. putin really wants that back again. he feels constrained because he is constrained. he would love to gobble up the
baltic states again, gobble up in terms of sphere of influence ukraine. but he is constrained by the world order that puts a premium on little countries' rights. little countries have right in the general assembly and the sense of right and wrong. that true? he wants to go back to preworld war ii rules of engagement, rules of power. >> i would disagree a little bit. i think he wants to go to a post world war ii world order. he wants russia to be one of the two great powers. and he wants russia to have the opportunity to expand. his basic instinct is not even so much to grab back everything that the soviet union has, although that would be a good start, but to be expansionist. he is an imperialist. >> what stands in his wanow? >>well, what stands in his way now is the european union. >> right. the new structures. the new structures. >> and the american commitment to nato. >> and she wants to see all that come apart? . >> he wants to see it come apart. he wants to sit down with the
new american president and divvy up the world again. he has been quite explicit about that. he has offered -- he offered this to the obama administration. the bargain of basically helping -- cooperating on isis in exchange for being allowed to do what he wants to do in europe. >> masha gessen, on behalf of chris matthews, thank you very much for joining us tonight. that's sobering stuff you deal with. and helping us in our conversation. masha gessen. >> thank you. >> after a break here, we'll be back with two experts on national security and defense to talk about just what it is we're watching going on here.
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known about in the late days of the obama administration, scattered about as not to be discovered or destroyed in the new days of the trump administration. the other about contacts by the now attorney general jeff sessions, met with the russian envoy twice last year and counters he did not disclose, as "the washington post." and chris you have some reaction to this. >> right. because for months now you and i have covered the interesting battle between elijah cummings, ranking member of the government reform committee in the house and darrell issa who was chair all those months. they were duelling it idealogically and a partisan way back and forth. now they're both on the same front. darrell issa wants an investigation of the whole russian investigation. and tonight elijah cummings is calling for the resignation of the attorney general. there is an interesting sort of watergate whiff to this that republicans are beginning to join with the democrats and calling for investigation, which is very interesting because if you're in a swing district, which has become a swing district for darrell issa, you want to be someone looking for truth.
and i think that's always a safe position. calling for an investigation is always the exciting way to say i'm out there for the people. i want you to have the answers. i want the answers. who doesn't want us to have the answers? that's a position that is much harder to take. keeping secrets. >> so this is how it's playing out politically tonight. we also have a full front of this waiting for our discussion, and that is national security, the military. with us tonight msnbc military analyst tired four-star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, west point class of '64, combat vietnam, three purple hearts two, silver star, two dscs. he was inducted into the army ranger hall of fame and served as drug czar in the clinton administration. here with us in new york, msnbc terrorism analyst malcolm nance, 35-year veteran of the trade, including naval intelligence, special operations and homeland security, and the author of a very timely new book called "the plot to hack america: how
putin's cyberspies and wikileaks tried to steal the 2016 election." gentlemen, welcome to you both. we were talking to remnick earlier. we all go back to an era of a cold war with russia. we go back to things like missiles and aircraft carriers and the kind of base fear we grew up with. this is so different now. in a way, lower ticket, lower tech. for lack of a double authentication on google, foreign power can hack into the american election and then some. so how have the tools of the battle changed? how much have they changed, barry? >> let me start off by saying i've spent most of my adult life studying the russians. and it's been a good bet as the soviet union came apart in and out of moscow, kiev, mostly arms control dealings, tremendous admiration for the russian
people -- physics, math, ballet, literature, courageous military. they've turned into a criminal oligarchy run by this fellow putin who is a very clever politician. they are a major threat to their neighbors and to u.s. interests. they are dangerous. they're in syria. they've participated in a modest way in murdering a half million people. crimea, they're active inside ukraine. they're a threat to the baltic states. they're actively trying to break up nato, the cornerstone of u.s. national security. and so the whole question of president trump and his relationship with them is unsettling and somewhat unexplicable. >> so general, is it part nomenclature? do we bear some of the blame? should we have been calling this a form of at least electronic warfare with another state? >> well, i listen to mr. remnick
on that point there is no moral equivalence between the agency operating against these authoritarian dictatorships who are a threat to their neighbors. i don't see any moral equivalence between that and trying to destabilize western europe elections and u.s. elections. so i wouldn't start off with saying so what's the difference? the president's statement "we've got killers too" you know is the most unamerican thing i've ever heard come out of the mouth of a president. we're not like the russians. so i think that's probably the wrong way to get into the question. >> malcolm nance, same questions to you. >> well, for the most part, i think that we need to understand what russia is doing strategical strategically. i mean, they are waging a war not just, you know, cyberwar or political warfare. they're waging a war to damage liberal democracy in its
entire entirety. and what they're doing is they have figured out using hybrid warfare. that's this global perception management game. which is actually didn't hack just the dnc. it hacked the psyche of the american people. in this election. >> but relatively low cost as weapons go. >> no cost as weapons go. and it st, you know, all you do is use the organs of the state which they've done brilliantly, and now have allies within the united states government and put those allies into office. and by doing that, they now have an axis against democracy. now they can go after france and germany and the netherlands. >> where there happen to be elections coming up. >> where there just happen to be elections. they are conducting hackings. they are conducting this global perception management war. >> okay, allies. fill that out. they all have allies in the u.s. government. how do you know that? do you know that? >> i think idealogically you can just tell by president trump's
statements about that's essentially the getting t ing t dissolution of nato, upending 70 years of stability being an exceptional nation and being a leader in the global democracy movement. but now aligning himself with russia. again, he can't insult -- he can insult everyone, but he can't insult vladimir putin. and to a certain extent it's almost like a guy who is a gambler in debt who won't talk about his bookie. so something has to be done. >> that has to be established. >> it all has to be established. which is why we need an investigation. >> a lot you've given us here. >> absolutely. it's just a theory from the intelligence perspective. >> the president did defend nato last night. >> he did. >> it's really important. we should hold him to it. >> let me ask barry mccaffrey. barry, you fought author this country. are you still struck by the kind of new language on putin, a president who to be fair has bent over backwards to give
vladimir putin the benefit of the doubt in virtually every public utterance i can remember on the subject. >> clearlyngaging the russians to include mr. putin in an effort to try and reduce a threat to western europe to u.s. national interests is the correct thing to do. but let me also add, this is not all electronic warfare and covert action and little green men. putin has rebuilt fairly high technology forces and is using them actively against -- the ukraine is self-propelled artillery, ground-to-air missiles as we saw shooting down the dutch airliner. these are active threats to the baltic republics, the poles, they are scared. not just of being on the internet and attacked, but russian military power. so, again, i see the russians as an active national security
threat as a major threat to nato which has disarmed itself. the germans came apart. they had 12 divisions, a powerful conventional army in the center of europe. but it's mostly gone. so putin punching way above his weight class is actually intimidating much of western europe. >> electoral in "der spiegel" right now about the german military along the same lines. malcolm nance, same question. a lot of our guests tonight have separated these two topics. the fact that our election was hacked and the fact that alarmingly nice things are being said from the top of the government about vladimir putin. do you mush them together? >> i believe that there is a connection. and it's virtually no one in the intelligence community could not see this and see that there has to be an arc. there has to be something between point a and point b. it's one thing, as the general said, for you to want to reach out to your opponents.
at one point russia was part of nato's partnership for peace. we were coming almost allies to a certain extent. and then once vladimir putin consolidated his power, he broke that he has a vision, a vision of european global power playing. and he has a vision for the world, which involves you -- him, the russia having to have allies. so by, you know, bringing on, you know, his donald trump and giving him the compliments and working him, you have to understand, this was the spy master in chief of russia. >> yeah. >> he ran human intelligence operations in west germany. he knows how to manipulate people. now he is a spymaster with atomic weapons and unlimited money. he can use his dominance to influence any weapon he wants and he has done it. >> malcolm nance, our thanks. barry mccaffrey, our thanks. another breck for us. our coverage continues. someone that makes it easy
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saying he was on the committee asking those questions, saying he should recuse himself. but nancy pelosi now saying he should resign. >> this is based on two contacts with the russians that were heretofore not disclosed. >> and the fact that he was asked about it -- not only not disclosed, he was asked about it and said he had no contact with russians. >> again two, newspaper stories have come out and kind of dominated our broadcast tonight. which was all going to be on the topic of things russia any. along the way, we have talked to a number of guests, all of them experts in their field. all of them among our very best correspondents and reporters, from richard engel in moscow here to new york. so our thanks to everyone for taking part in this. obviously, a story that took on new urgency and new currency while we were in the midst of discussing it tonight. and as i said, straight ahead, we will air our regular broadcast for tonight of "the 11th hour" dominated again by
promised to help. during the campaign, president-elect trump put out a list of promises.. he put out his contract for american voter and in it, very specific promises for his first 100 days. lowering taxes and tax reform. free and fair trade deals to protect american workers and their jobs. fixing our nation's infrastructure and sending education back to the states and school choice. repealing and replacing obamacare. affordable child care, pulling a border wall, keeping community safe, rebuilding our nations military and doing what he calld draining the swamp. if he can keep those promises come of this country will be in a much better place one year from now, two years from now, four years from now. so on the eve of this inauguration, my advice for the incoming president is very simple. don't let the washington establishment, republican establishment, democratic establishment, media establishment that in the way of
but i think we will get there and i think this very much is a new beginning. i think your counsel and warning is exactly right. it's impressed on him, one can see. they were at holy sites today, at our civic religion, we call it that. the tomb of the unknown soldier, lincoln memorial. look, this guy comes to washington as a certain man, and liberals don't understand him. the media doesn't. a lot of american people do.sh i've seen in him a lot of what i sound ronald reagan. he had two goals, really, destroy the evil empire. and two, restore the good sense of the american people. >> sean: and he did it. >> and he was the same man that he was when he came. i think donald trump will be the same because there is this irrefutable, irrebuttable core to the man that is not going to change.
i will take a handful of theut things you mentioned. and i will be very pleased. let me just say i don't say this bitterness. the last act that barack obama performed in office, he performed today. he commuted the sentences of drug dealers. it's time for this to end and us for us to have a new beginning. >> sean: the only question nowow is will he give hillary clintoni a pardon and as gerald ford did for crimes committed or that have may have been committed. bill bennett, good to see you, it'll be a good day tomorrow. >> thank you, sean. >> sean: joining us now, fox news contributor is there any other job you need? >> welcome to my town. it is my town now. >> sean: there were a few of us that really believed that this could happen. >> can we just enjoy this veryf moment? first of all, look at this.
this is where donald trump is going to be living, with his family. i can't believe sean put the itching powder in the bed, as a prank on trump. obama would let you do that. think about where we came from 18 months ago when you and i were talking about this movement that we had seen on the radio for years.ov economic populism, questioning these trade deals, having borders that matter. having immigration, but smart immigration. they look down upon those, and called them protectionists, isolationists. and trump said, i am with the people. i'm going to win ohio. how many times on election night did we hear that? >> sean: think back to election night. people crying, there was shock. and then there was such sadness.
>> we weren't exactly thrilled eight years ago. but we bucked it up. we held the tea party. then the midterm in 2014 we did the same thing, tried to help romney. in this case, this unlikely vessel, we had someone who had a better pulse on the americanun people than all of the elite journalists were moping around h washington in the last few days. all the elite media, the elites in hollywood. the financial community. they all look down on trump and by the same token, were looking down on the millions of people going to the rallies. >> sean: that's when i knew it.al you could see it, you could feel it. i was doing all of the candidates and giving them equal time. they were never anywhere near the enthusiasm. >> you saw in your twitter feed. they were on fire.
his verbal slip-ups, i think people were willing to look pasr it because they knew that heba loved america and he has the best interest. >> sean: i doubt you're going to do the howard stern show just a couple years earlier. not just on howard but it's a controversial show. all right, the question is, i think there are a lot of pitfalls in the city. the point is, there are pitfalls.th what you think is the biggest challenge he's going to face here? >> the sheer bureaucracy that bill hinted. the sheer volume of regulations that have to be gutted, the size of the bureaucracy. the career of civil service. many of them good people but many are left wing. burrowed into the bureaucracy
who won't want to help donald trump and his agenda. they are newbies, coming in with him. while it's good to clear out the old underbrush of government, you kind of have to have a few old hands and they're too who know where all the tangles are to avoid. i think it's the size of the bureaucracy. the malcontents that are burrowed within it, and the lobbyists who are still crawlin all over the city. pushing for the same special interests. >> sean: you are right.er you really are considering a run. i know you would want to talk about it. in the commonwealth of virginia. i'm your first endorsement. >> you are, sean, if you want to run in new york, i will support you. in florida. >> sean: i couldn't win the dog catcher in new york. >> i like you against rubio. >> sean: thank you for being here. up next on this historic night, tonight on "hannity." >> i think it is going to be
less of it agenda and more of a philosophical document. a vision of where he sees the country, the proper role of government, citizens. >> sean: incoming press secretary sean spicer, what the president-elect will talk about tomorrow in his inaugural address, michelle malkin will join us next. later tonight. >> i am especially pleased, i know the president-elect is. we are wrapping up this transition on schedule and on budget. >> sean: vice president elect mike pence. we will check in with anthony scaramucci. much more, as "hannity" continues in our nation's capital on the eve of the inauguration of donald trump. ♪
is going to visit and make sure that he's tells them how much he appreciates their service to our country. the most notorious drug kingpin landed on u.s. soil. joachim el chapo guzman broke out of mexican prison twice, was extradited u.s. tuesday to face other charges. el chapo is spending the night in a new york jail before his first appearance in a federal house in brooklyn on sunday. i am jack ibanez. now back to "hannity" ." >> it is a movement that began. , and is a movement like we've never seen anywhere in the world, they say. there's never been a movement like b this. and it is something very, very special. >> sean: welcome back to "hannity." that was president-elect donald trump at the make america great again concert at the lincoln memorial. earlier today during his first official press briefing,e sean
spicer spoke about whatt president-elect trump will include in his inauguration speech. all coming up tomorrow.. watch this.on >> it will be a personal and sincere statement about his vision for the country. he will discuss what it means, to be an american can, the challenges that we face. infrastructure, education, manufacturing base. i think it's going to be less of an agenda and more of a philosophical document.. of where he sees the country. the proper role of government. citizens. >> sean: joining me now with reaction, the host of michelle malkin investigates, it's on crtv.com, how are you? >> i'm great, sean, how are youm i've been walking around the city all day today, it's electric. i think that people need to be reminded that as many long faces
and teary-eyed hollywood celebrities and media type people there, here on the ground, people have come all over the country to yes, celebrate. >> sean: i love donald trump's answer in the interview he did with ainsley earhardt.ce i hope people give the tickets back. the congressmen and women. this is the only time this has happened in these numbers since 1860 and 1864 with abraham lincoln and southern representatives wouldn't go? >> yes, that's right. shame on these empty chair democrats. they came out, can't put their partisanship aside. for this very historic moment. it tells you everything you need to know about their disingenuousness when it comes to preaching about healing and understanding and peace. >> sean: there is a certain majesty to all of this. when you see the peaceful
transition of power. there've only been 45 people, that hold that position as the president of our great country. and what an honor. and to make it the solemn event that it is, the celebration, iha think it's appropriate for anybody who wins. >> it is in the literal sense, awesome. it is awe-inducing. especially something else about being on the streets of d.c. hearing from small business owners. i don't know what their politics are. a lot of them don't know what mine are either. when you just see the excitement and the reinvigoration, i was reading some of these liberal media headlines. oh, there will be healing. what is trump going to do to bring people together? guess what, people, he won. >> sean: even people he has brought in, like steve harvey. he gets an invitation from theeo president-elect and gets beaten up for going to talk to him about solving the country's
problems. as big as it is to win the presidency, that's kind of the qualifier. the hard work really begins. after all we see tomorrow, then you've got to dig your heels in and to me the biggest challenge i think donald trump faces a republican establishment, democratic establishment, media establishment.t. >> yeah, that's right. they transcend. he will fight tooth and nail. fighting republicans that were never for him, thrown in with hillary clinton rather than embracing what we are seeing now, truly a revolution. >> sean: look at the difference between thehe republicans. they want a $9.7 trillion increase in debt. rid of earmarks, some ethical issues, and then donald trump is in the paper talking the last 40
hours but a 10% reduction in spending in washington. a cut, a realsp cut. and he talked about a 20% cut in the workforce in 2 washington. >> yes, a somebody who has been involved in conservative politics and media for 25 years, i have more hope than ever that we will fulfill the vision that so many of these establishment m republicans abandoned. they -- there are a lot of things i disagree with in they direction with what he's going with but in general, we are headed in the r-uppercase-letter right direction. >> sean: do think it's a problem if i wear jeans to the ball? it is that a problem? >> what you need is your cowboy boots. >> sean: i left them at home. thanks for being with us, congrats on the show too. coming up next on this busy newsnight from washington, d.c., on "hannity." >> i am especially pleased and i know the president-elect is a especially pleased that we are wrapping up this peaceful transition on schedule and under budget.
>> sean: that's what americans i think want to hear a lot of in coming years. i will speak with the inauguration communications director, boris epshteyn and anthony scaramucci.i plus, 68 democratic congress men and women will be boycotting the inaugural address tomorrow. austan goolsbee and geraldo rivera will debate. ♪ tomorrow. austan goolsbee and geraldo rivera will debate. ♪ i i i i i
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to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis. >> i am especially pleased and i know the president-elect is a especially pleased that we are wrapping up this peaceful transition on schedule and under budget. we will actually return some 20u of taxpayer funding back to the u.s. treasury and that is just exactly in keeping with the president-elect's expectations. he is a business man that knowsd how to sharpen his pencil and i'm very pleased to report today that we are able to do that andn restore those dollars to the treasury. >> sean: that was vice president elect mike pence. speaking with reporters about the success of president-elect trump and his transition on schedule and under budget. earlier this week, theof "washington examiner" reported
that he is looking to cut federal spending. 66% say they feel optimisticra about the u.s. economy. last year only 49% of americans felt that way. here now with reaction, the special assistant to the president-elect, boris epshteyn. and anthony scaramucci. i know this may sound crazy but on time, under budget. washington. right? >> he's the man. he's very disciplined. he's a most like the project
manager in chief. he lays it out and tells you what to do. >> sean: it was watching ao couple of things, and paul ryan said, well we will repeal it within the next year we will replace it. trump said we will repeal and replace, republicans with earmarks coming back, $9.7 trillion in the debt in the next ten years. donald trump is tying about a 10% reduction in spending. eliminating baseline budgeting. and an over bloated bureaucracy workforce. >> it's such an outpouring of support from across the country and is because of that. compared to other politicians with all due respect. now the trump movement is fully coming to washington, d.c. it's uniting america behind it. things are not good to be the same as they are. we will be playing by differenti rules.
>> sean: anthony, you and i have talked about the economy a lot. the success track record you have. isn't it pretty simple. you repatriate national corporation money. below are the corporate rate to 15. >> i don't want to overstate it but if the deal with the hill. there's a little bit of a grind there. what i love about him is the revenue side of the equation. we have so much energy under the ground. you're going to be a net exporter of energy. a result of which you will start to see, these long-term liabilities. he's a disruptive entrepreneurur at the top of the food chain in the u.s. government. >> sean: let's put these together. repatriated trillions at 10%, low rate. 15% corporate tax rate. >> down to four rates on the individual income tax. >> sean: seven to three. >> the point is that you have simplification which you and i
know, 76,000 pages of code, the> are more on avoiding taxes than they are in making stuff. >> sean: took him two and a half years to see the impact of his policies. the going to be a two and half year wait? >> it'll be a much sorter a much shorter wait. >> america is open for business, sean. he's at the top of the food chain letting people know that. look at all the job announcements he's made. look at what he has done. carrier, gm, ford. >> sprint. then on the international arena too. yemen talking about the resolution as well, china. it really is across-the-board, such an unusual transition. >> on time, under budget, resurgence in manufacturing in america. >> sean: we have 95 million americans out of the labor force. how many can we get back to work
work? >> i haven't done the calculation, but let's go with it about 9.6%. if we can get that down to 7.2%, it's maybe 17 million jobs. we have a home run. we can get them reelected. >> sean: congratulations. >> this guy has done an amazing job though, by the way. >> sean: both of you guys have. >> when he calls me forh, i have to call him. >> sean: i never asked for anything for myself. >> please, no more calls. >> sean: when i mentioned on the air -- >> you know how many favors i owe this guy? >> thank you, boris. >> sean: getting him angry is not good. thank you both. coming up, democrats are digging in their heels.
at least now 68 liberal lawmakers will not be attempting donald j. trump's inauguration tomorrow. we will check in with geraldo rivera, austan goolsbeew also later tonight, motorcycle group. bikers for trump. they rolled into d.c. they said they'll stand in front of protesters tomorrow, if they get out of hand.d. the founder will join us. as "hannity" continues. >> the next time, we are going to win the old-fashioned way. we are going to win because we c did so well. because it was so overwhelming, the thing that we did. nt. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business...
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[zombie] an advance on my tax refund. [john] doesn't take brains to see the value in that. [zombie] ha! [john] arghh. [vo] you can get a refund advance of up to $1250 no interest at block. [john] get your taxes won. >> we are going to unify our country. our phrase, and we all know it, make america great again.
but we are going to make america great for all of our people. everybody. everybody, throughout our country. >> sean: that was president-elect donald trump at the make america great again ball and concert in front of the lincoln memorial in washington, d.c. trump is calling for unity ahead of tomorrow's inauguration. at least 68 democratic lawmakers, crybabies, will not be in attendance. joining us now, austan goolsbee, geraldo rivera. l this is not happened since 1860. and 1864, austan goolsbee. even you can admit they are just a bunch of crybabies that need aromatherapy, crayons. coloring books, legos. >> legos are good. legos. >> sean: come on, hot cocoa. >> you know it's not my way, sean. i'm not a fan of that approach. i understand.
>> sean: see, that makes you a good guy. >> may be he be the moster unpopular incoming president in modern pulling history, he may have lost the popular vote by any president ever, but he won the election. if you are in congress, you should go to the inauguration. >> sean: those polls were aou little skewed. it's ridiculous. >> he's by far the most unpopular, it's not even close. but he won. it's his day. they should go. they may not smile, they don'tpu have to laugh but you are in congress. you should go. >> sean: four years from now when i give all of the economic recovery statistics, i'm gonna remind you what you said. >> i don't want the president incoming to fail because it means we all will fail. i've got some nervousness. >> sean: you are a big believer in unity. you don't like when we fight.
>> sometimes we have fun. it's evenly matched and i appreciate you, i consider you my friend. i am disheartened by this move to boycott the inauguration. particularly for an elected member of congress. this is an american celebration. this is the time we put asidely your partisanship and whoever you voted for, you have to root for the president to be to be great.de if he's great, then america prospers. this is a time when he said we should all stand together as one. w i appreciate all the former presidents, george w. bush, george h.w. bush.me hillary and bill clinton. they are there to celebrate the peaceful transition, the transfer of power and i think that that is the message. that is the goal. i'm sorry that they are staying home. >> sean: you and i have had passionate debates on air. austan you and i have had battle royale's on tv.
i still lied in the piece where i said good things about you. >> you have not heard the last of that from your viewers. they are still pissed at you. >> sean: the reality is, before you even came in tonight, i knew you would not support what they're doing with 68 of these congressmen and women.>> >> here's what i'm going to say. you don't have to like donald trump, you don't have to support his policy. what makes america amazing, the greatest nation on earth, is what we are going to see tomorrow. a party can switch and there is no violence, nobody has taken over the reins of power. there's a peaceful transition. it's what makes american democracy amazing. like i say, you don't have to cheer for donald trump to be inn favor of the peaceful transition of power. >> sean: i made a deal with geraldo on this historic, on the eve of this historic inauguration. this is only happen to 45 people
in the history of our country. who did you vote for? you tell me. >> i won't tell you. but i will tell you this. i support president donald trump with all my heart. i want him to succeed. i am so proud of my friend, a man i have known since 1976 -- >> sean: i was putting on the spot. >> for more than four decades, we have dipped in and out of each other's lives. i've interviewed him 20 times in various phases. in 1991, i did the life and love of donald trump. 1995, an interview about o.j. simpson of all things. he was there with his then wife marla maples. to see him settle down in 2006 with melania and how he got his life really on track in a way that he could now become a great -- >> sean: what you did say before we came on the air -- >> now i'm going to blame geraldo too. you just wait a year.
i'm going to remind you. >> sean: it can get any worse than what this guy is leaving us. >> it will get worse. don't worry. >> sean: you admitted before we came on the air, is trying to transition that and get give you a break. if hillary clinton were being inaugurated tomorrow, what'd you say to me?an >> i'm with my driver. the funniest thing. a gentleman from pakistan. he said to me i am so glad donald trump won because the republicans know how to party. those democrats, they are so boring. they don't have big parties. they march around. >> sean: i pulled my to hotel, i work in the service industry my whole life. the right tip, i'm used to giving people. he goes, mr. hannity. when the republicans come we make money. when the democrats come we make nothing. >> america should celebrate. this is america's party. >> sean: at last word, austan. >> i've seen the republicans,n: they do not know how to party.
i was in cleveland. >> sean: hey, i took you out to dinner. and i let you buy the most expensive bottle of wine. you bought me a hamburger. >> do you want a mcpick 2? [laughter]r] >> sean: when we come back, bikers for trump rolled into d.c. today. his inauguration. the motorcycle group is promising they will step in if protesters get out of hand tomorrow. i will speak to the founder of the group, coming up next. more, as "hannity" continues on the eve of the inauguration of donald j. trump. ♪ i'm talking about america ♪ with brotherhood
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absolutely scottsdale. >> the last month of the campaign, when i traveled around to every place that you can imagine, state after state after
state, speech after speech. and we had 10,000. 20,000. 30,000 people. it was never an entity's feet, just tonight. >> sean: bikers for trump rolled into d.c. today ahead of his inauguration. not only to show their support but the president-elect but also to protect. tomorrow proceedings from these snowflake protesters. joining us now with details, what's planned for tomorrow,ro bikers for trump founder, chris cox. do i get to keep this one? i really like this. come on, i don't bite. you know. how long have you known, why are you guys here? i you are worried about the snowflakes? we are actually showing. >> it'll end right on pennsylvania avenue, we are actually doing the parade. we have the only pro trump.
>> sean: out of 89? 88 snowflakes -- how many guys you have in your group? >> we are growing by about 25,000 a week. we've got a lot of guys on thehe way here. california, new york, pennsylvania. they are coming in. >> sean: do you all ride harleys? you actually got to know donald trump. >> yeah, we ride harleys. we had a as a matter-of-fact conversation like i had with my college buddies. he said to me, chris, did you a see the news today where ford is keeping the jobs here in america? he goes, you know, i'm really natural at this. i really believe we are going to make america great again. >> sean: i feel like i am an episode of sons of anarchy.
you guys said you are a lot better? >> we are a hell of a lot better. >> sean: i've been having this discussion with my wife. i want a harley. she picked me up a vespa and i said i'm not driving up thing. let me show the back of the vest. how many stitches are in this? >> 1,000,368. >> sean: god bless you guys. thank you for supporting the next president. a lot of people here don't like him. >> nice to meet you. >> sean: thank you all. coming up, very important question of the day. that, straight ahead as we continue from our nation's capital. >> it is a momentous day before a historic day. i'm pleased to have a chance to report to the american people and all of you, the progress that we have made at the president-elect's direction. preparing a team that will be
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this is what we do. we protest when we disagree and i don't think there's any reason for people to be told to come together and support this if they don't believe in it. >> i'm not suggesting support tonight's nominee but don't plan the protest before you know who the nominee is. >> and that is where we are. we're at the point of transparent obstruction on both sides, olivia nuzzi and david jolly, thank you. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening. thanks, my friend. thank you for joining us at this hour. this is a big important historic news day. good to have you here. thank you for watching the news on a night like this and thank you for watching it here. antonin scalia, nino to his friends, he was beloved by his fellow supreme court justices. even the justices who disagreed with h the most, perhaps escially the justices who disagreed with him the most in terms of their day jobs. they loved his company.
justice scalia and justice ruth bader ginsburg they shared a love of opera. justice scalia and justice elena kagan, they went hunting and fishing together. justice scalia was deeply and antagonistally and provocatively conservative. he was also witty, he was also apparently really fun to be with and he lived an active life. he also had heart trouble. and last february almost a year ago he died in his sleep. he was at a swanky hunting lodge in texas only about 30 miles from the u.s./mexico border and it was a shock when he died. it was a very, very sad loss for his family and in friends. it was also, of course, a political shock because his death was a surprise and it opened up a surprise vacancy on the supreme court. and with almost exactly a year left in his presidency we learned that barack obama would get to name a court nominee to
fill the seat vie kated on the court by the death of antonin scalia. or not. even before former president obama named his nominee, even before he named judge merrick garland, republicans announced that they would hold open the scalia seat. they would not hold hearings for any obama nominee no matter who the president picked they were not going to consider his nominee. honestly because the president is a democrat and they didn't believe they had to and so they believed they would not thank you very much. and that has never been happened in our country. not like that. but tonight that radical decision, not a radical decision by donald trump but a radical decision by the republican party in the senate, tonight that radical act by congressional republicans it bore fruit -- awkwardly phrased fruit, a little hiccup in the execution
court tonight. they are ready to go even before the name neil gorsuch was announced tonight. they were there to protest this nomination not necessarily because of anything specific about him because nobody knew it was going to be him until 8:00. those protesters were there and set to be there because of the circumstances surrounding this vacancy on the court and surrounding this nomination. democrats in the senate even before neil gorsuch was announced tonight, senate democrats openly mulled whether they should try to reciprocate in kind what the republicans did to president obama with holding this seat open for almost a year. as to whether or not democrats have the power to do that, well, the senator who has led the charge and said that he will lead a filibuster to hold this seat open because this is a stolen seat, that democratic senator is going to be joining us tonight live in just a few minutes. you will want to see that. as for the specifics of this nominee, though, judge gorsuch
is most famous nationally for his role in a controversial case bought by the hobby lobby retail chain. the hobby lobby retail chain for years they had provided health insurance to their employees that included coverage for various kinds of birth control. then insurance became a point of controversy in obamacare, in the affordable care act and once that happened hobby lobby decided that they had an objection on religious grounds that they had religious beliefs as a business and those religious beliefs were now being violated by the affordable care act, by the regulations around insurance and the affordable care act even though they had been providing birth control coverage through their employees' insurance all along. they just discovered these religious objections once it became a controversial issue in the affordable care act. it was a strange case. it was a controversial case. the retail store's claims
succeeded at the supreme court but the way the case got to the supreme court was in court through neil gorsuch's lower court where he sided with them on their religious objections. judge neil gorsuch does not have a subtsunami shl record specifically on the hot button issue of abortion in terms of how both sides react to his nomination. judge neil gorsuch was confirmed to his current seat on the appeals court by a voice vote in 2006. the president described that as a unanimous vote and it's a kind of unanimous vote but it mostly means people don't formally vote, it just got approved. judge gorsuch is from colorado. judge gorsuch's family has a famous political history because his mom ran the epa for ronald reagan in a tenure that ended really, really badly and is a fascinating story. but that was his mom. as for him, how is this going to go? what should we know about him? joining us now is the senior editor and legal correspondent
at slate magazine, someone i always want to turn to as nights like this. someone we booked before we knew it was going to be neil gorsuch. doll ya, thank you for being here. great to have you with us. >> thanks, rachel. i'm assuming you booked someone else and it was right down the wire who you called? >> i was going to summon you both and make you stand hear wearing the same outfit then i was going to have someone in a ball gown pull a spangly curtain reveal one of you but we don't the budget for that kind of thing. neil gorsuch was a -- we've known for a few days he was on the shortest short list, that he might be one of the picks, what's your overall view of this choice by the president? >> in a way it's hugely surprising because if you think about the president's -- most of hisabinet picks he'sked in some sense the most nihilist choice. that is not neil gorsuch. this is not a bomb thrower,
someone in any way who doesn't believe in the judicial branch and in that sense it's surprising because i think disrupters are kind of trump's things so this is an incredibly solid respectable conventional pick that anyone would have made. in once sense it's surprising for trump because trump promised us a blue-collar non-ivy non-fancy pants guy and gorsuch was on the short list. so in that sense it's a funny pick but in every other sense conventional. >> he's sort of in the same way that the president attacked goldman sachs for having captured hillary clinton and having been the great downfall of ted cruz's ties to goldman sachs and then he brings on six people from goldman sachs into the administration. he is famous for the hobby lobby case, for his role at the
appeals court level while that case made its way to the supreme court. i described that in a short way. tell me 23 i got that right and why that might be important in terms of controversies or important insight into what he might be like? >> look, i think you made this point and it's important. the two litmus tests that trump promised on the campaign trail were somebody who was going to support guns and someone who was going to end roe v. wade and in a strange way he picked a guy who has no actual record on those issues. you can dance around them but in a weird way give than he pledged that those were his nominees, unless he knows something we don't know he's put gorsuch in a funny position. there's not a tremendous record. i will say on hobby lobby and abortion we know that gorsuch not only voted as you said against the contraception mandate, we know -- his academic interest, his big book he's written and thought about all has to do with end-of-life
issues, physician assisted suicide, the sanctity of life, a useful template to think about how he might think about abortion but certainly squarely on these issues we don't have a ton of guidance, we know generally he is scalia-like both in his approach, his sort of minimalist textualist approach and scalia-like in his politics but on these issues he's a bit of a cipher. >> on that, because abortion has been such a point of contention for nominees in both parties and they go through this kabuki theater of pretending like they've never thought about it before when they're asked about it at their confirmation hearings, we've been hearing noise that anti-abortion groups might not be totally comfortable with him. that in the ambiguity there might be some concerns on the right that he's insufficiently anti-abortion. is there any reason to suspect that? >> i don't think there's reason
to suspect that but as i suggested, rachel, i think the fact that trump didn't pick someone who looked like a bill pryor who he promised us, a culture warrior who was coming out blazing for roe and he didn't give that. i would not be surprised if some of the anti-roe groups are really pretty perplexed that he didn't make good on the one promise that got them out to the polls for someone that in other ways they didn't like very much at all. >> dahlia lithwick, senior editor, legal correspondent at slate magazine, i'm sure we will be talking more about neil gorsuch in days ahead, thanks for being here, my friend. >> thanks, rachel. 1789, president george washington got to be the first president to make a nomination to the united states supreme court. 17 1789. there, of course, are benefits to being first. when george washington got to make his supreme court nomination, he got to nominate six justices all at once. brand new court, got to fill it up. when he made those six nominations in two days the
united states senate confirmed all six of them. that's how we got the very first supreme court and every president since george washington would love to be treated like that, white? they'd love to have everybody confirmed in two days and pick every justice on the court but there will never be another george washington, that said it isn't usually that hard for presidents to get their nominees confirmed speaking as a general matter. in american history the vast majority of supreme court nominees have been confirmed and the vast majority of those confirmed have been confirmed by a lot, by big overwhelming votes, there's only been a handful of enxceptions in moder history. reagan nominee robert bourque was rejected by the senate in 1987. in the george h.w. bush administration, in 1991 clarence thomas was almost rejected by the senate. he squeaked by on a 52-48 vote, the narrowest approval margin for a supreme court justice in modern history.
there was also a weird period before that, 1968, 1969, 1970, that was like a bermuda triangle for the supreme court. this was after lbj's triumphant nomination of thurgood marshall to be the first african-american supreme court justice. after that things went off course and over the next few years with johnson at the end of his firm and nixon at the beginning of his time as president between them the two of them air balled on four different nominees for the supreme court who were all rejected or forced to withdraw in scandal. but again i think of that as a weird bermuda triangle period in supreme court nominees. there are exceptions. there was that time period. there was the tough time for clarence thomas, robert bourque, those were exceptions but that proved the more general rule. if you get to the point where the president is nominating you to be a supreme court justice and the senate is considering your nomination to be a supreme court justice you are likely to get through.
look at the justices confirmed in the late 20th century. anthony kennedy, 1987. the vote on him was 97-0. david souter, approved in 1990. the vote on him was 90-9. ruth badernsburg, approved in 1993. 96-3. stephen breyer, the following year, his vote was 87-9. that's how the last century ended. overwhelming votes on what supreme court nominees huge votes, 90-vote margins. that's what they used to get. liberals, conservative, didn't matter. everybody got those overwhelming numbers. then we hit the millennium. this century kicked off with bush v. gore. with the bush v. gore decision in the year 2000, the immensely controversial decision in which the supreme court actually chose the president in a 5-4 vote where the votes lined up precisely on ideological lines, conservative justices all voted for the republican, liberal justices all voted for the democrat and because there were
five conservatives and only four liberals on the court, that's the reason why we got president george w. bush instead of president al gore. and then to rub salt in the wound, for the first supreme court pick of the 21st century, the first supreme court pick after that, president george w. bush chose one of the lawyers who had advised the bush camp on the florida recount in bush v. gore. talk about chutzpah. ultimately john roberts did very well at his confirmation hearing. he did get confirmed. the vote was 87-22 which is narrower than most votes historically but not bad. then, perhaps a little high on life over how well that went with john roberts despite how bold that pick was maybe a little overconfident, maybe feeling too many of his oats, we then got the harriet miers disaster. what was that about? president george w. bush after his success with john roberts he nominated his old buddy, his old
friend from texas whom he had brought to washington to work in the white house counsel's office. nobody had any idea why hemiers than the fact that he liked her and they went way back. that was greet with bipartisan bafflement. conservative groups ran ads going against it. that nomination lasted precisely 24 days before it was withdrawn. and less son learned apparently, we got samuel alito. ultimately when the vote came for alito there were 42 no votes against him, all from democrats. the most no votes against a successful nominee since clarence thomas. then thereafter we got a new president and we got president obama's two nominees, sonia sotomayor and elena kagan, neither of whom was particularly controversial as a pick but more than 30 republicans voted no on
each of them anyway. you see the overall trend here, right? no supreme court nomination is exactly like the ones that preceded it but you see the trend here. it has become hardener recent years to get confirmed as a supreme court justice. particularly post-bush v. gore and that process with votes getting more partisan that process was under way before justice antonin scalia died last year unexpectedly on february 13 almost a year ago now. and immediately after justice scalia died, the night of his death republicans said they wouldn't allow a vote on any nominee to replace him. president obama ended up
nominating merrick garland anyway. the definition of a non-controversial moderate choice. the republicans never even held a hearing on him. they have held open that seat for more than a year simply because they didn't want a democratic president to appoint someone to the court. several republican senators sid before the presidential election that if hillary clinton won the election they would continue to hold that seat open for four years, for eight years if necessary because hillary clinton is a democrat. new republican rule, democrats don't get to appoint supreme court justices. openly h lly hewing newly defin washington, d.c. principle that only republicans can nominate supreme court justices. the nominating process was already harder than it was historically and way more partisan and that was before the republicans held a seat open for a year for 100% partisan purposes which is the only reason the new president had
this seat to fill tonight and now the nomination will go to neil gorsuch. this was going to be hard anyway, just look at the history. now i think it's safe to assume dexs are going to make this as difficult as humanly possible even before we knew who the name of the nominee would be. gorgeou. oh, did i say there's only one special edition? because, actually there's 5. aaaahh!! ooohh!! uh! holy mackerel. wow. nice. strength and style. which one's your favorite? (laughter) come home with me! trade up to the silverado 2500hd all star edition and get an average total value over $11,000 when you find your tag. find new roads at your local chevy dealer. that ride share? you actually rode here on the cloud. did not feel like a cloud... that driverless car? i have seen it all.
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colorado, police arrived on that scene, it was friday night and they found a 22-year-old named ryan wilson. he admitted to police some of the pot plants in the field were his but then he decided to bolt. he started to make a run for it. and one of the police officers on the scene shot ryan wilson with a taser, shot him in the head and ryan wilson died that night. the coroner said he died of an irregular heart beat caused by the combination of the exertion from running from police, the shock from the taser and a heart condition he had had since birth. the following year, ryan wilson's parents filed a wrongful death suit. his parents argued ryan wilson didn't do anything that could be construed as violent. the suit claimed the officer didn't warn wilson he was going to use the taser, that when he shot him with the taser they claim that was excessive force that shouldn't have been used against their son that night. in 2013, that lawsuit ended up
at a federal appeals court, the 10th circuit u.s. court of appeals. a three-judge panel on the appeals court threw out the lawsuit, threw out the parents' lawsuit, threw it out -- the lawsuit was against the city of lafayette, against the police officer in question and the judge wrote in that decision that the officer who had shot ryan wilson with that taser, that officer has immunity which protects government official doing their jobs from civil liability and the parents' case was thrown out. the judge who wrote that opinion was neil gorsuch, president trump's nominee to the united states supreme court as of about 84 minutes ago. he's somebody whose record we're about to find out a lot more about starting tonight. joining me now is the professor of constitutional law. great to have you here. >> thanks so much for having me. great to be here. >> we had telegraphing it might
be judge gorsuch. what's your view -- first of all, just big picture as to whether this is a surprising nomination, whether this is a provocative nomination, what do you think? >> i don't think it's that provocative when you compare him to the other two candidates whose names were rooted about. so if you compare him to a pryor or hardiman. but what we have to compare him to is merrick garland. i don't want that to be lost. so we had a supreme court back in the beginning that was very fragile. but let's remember chief justice marshall was careful about husbanding the credibility of the court because it was a weak institution. people used to leave all the time to become state court justices or diplomats, something that would be unthinkable today because it's the most prestigious position -- >> the first chief justice left to be a governor. you would never imagine that happening now.
>> so what i'm worried about -- and also chief justice marshall used to insist that opinions be only in because he was so worried that anything less than unanimous opinion would weaken the credibility of an institution. what i worry about when i see those graphs about how conflicted we are with confirmation hearings is that the supreme court may not be the rock of gibraltar that we grew up with. it may not be a completely respected, really the most respected of the three branches if you believe the public opinion polls but may be seen as another partisan institution precisely because with all due respect the president is treating this nomination as a bit of a reality show but also and more deeply the fact that merrick garland didn't get a hearing. >> it seems the truly radical thing that happened is the merrick garland nomion blanked by the republicans. i didn't feel -- i didn't mean
to say it this bluntly but i don't know any other way to explain the principle to apply to that which is a democratic president shouldn't be allowed to appoint a supreme court nominee, not when republicans are in control of the nomination process because they control the senate. that was the truly radical act. it seems like the choice of judge gorsuch is a relatively mainstream choice you might expect from any republican president but the circumstances around this nomination are radical because of the garland nomination and that partisan precedent or the breaking of non-partisan precedent we've seen. >> exactly. and when we get to the game of comparing him to the other two candidates in this particular cycle we're already sort of losing the real debate which is let's compare him to the person who was nominated by the president, merrick garland. >> and do you think there are things in his history that will be substantively controversial or subject of acute questioning
or concern once he goes through this process? >> absolutely. this hobby lobby decision he was still extremely controversial. it says corporations are persons who can exercise religions and on those grounds can engage in the religious right to discriminate from laws that you or i would have to follow. so there's the health care contraception mandate promulgated by the obama administration and hobby lobby says we don't to adhere to that because of our religious beliefs. that's not the classic religious accommodation claim we believe that is brought forward by individuals. it's a for-profit entity bringing that so that's a troubling decision. this qualified immunity. i don't know if you've been watching this but there's an increasing drum beat among conservative scholars to get rid of qualified immunity all together because it gives too much of a bye to governmental officials so the qualified immunity case will be controversial then the hobby lobby case is not a stand alone with regard to religious
liberties. he dissented from denial of a hearing on bank which is a dissent from a decision not to rehear a case in a little sisters of the poor case which was kind of a crazy case from my perspective so it may be that there's reasonable room to debate this but from my perspective it seems crazy because the obama administration says if you want exemption from the contraception mandate sign this form and the objection from the little sisters of the poor was signing the exemption form itself was a form of complicity so they refused to do it so they were opting out from opting out and he believed they had a case so i do think there's a religious right to discriminate and different rules apply to believers and nonbelievers or people who belong to minority faiths is something we'll hear a lot of in the coming days. >> kenji yoshino, professor of constitutional law, always incredibly clarifying. thank you so much, we'll be right back. stay with us. ♪
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a list of far right activist groups financed by big business interest. judge gorsuch has been on the list for four months. before joining the bench he advocated to make it easier for public companies to defraud investors. as a judge he twisted himself into a pretzel to make sure rules favorite giant companies over workers and individual americans, he sided with employers who deny wages, he's ruled against workers in all manner of discrimination access. for years, powerful interests have executed a full scale at salt on the kp assault, they spent millions to keep this seat open and judge gorsuch is their reward. based on the long and well-established record of judge gorsuch, i will oppose his nomination." elizabeth warren putting herself on the record tonight, we're seeing a number of senators come
out and say what their intentions are around this nomination. one of the senators who says democrats should hold this seat open, democrats should refuse to vote on any one other than merrick garland for this seat because it's a stolen seat, that democratic senator joins us live next. (vo) maybe it was here, when you hit 300,000 miles. or here, when you walked away without a scratch. maybe it was the day your baby came home. or maybe the day you realized your baby was not a baby anymore.
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pours in politics, that summer, summer of '68, the chief justice decided he would like to retire. chief justice earl warren told president johnson he wanted to retire. now, lbj was at the end of his term, he was deeply unpopular, he decided not to run for reelection and he devised a plan for what he was going do about that chief justice seat. he decided he would elevate to the chief justice position a justice who was already on the supreme court, a justice who'd already been on the court for three years, his friend abe fordisand republicans were not hot on abe fordice because of his liberal jew s -- views, bu that cratered when it was revealed justice fordice had taken speaking fees for college lectures so they filibustered him. they blocked his nomination. on october 1, 1968 a month before the election there was an attempt to beat that filibuster
and the abe forit is a nomination to be chief justice, that fell apart. >> forit is a lost, the vote was on cloture on forcing members to stop talking and to decide whether to confirm forit is a or not. they ended the filibuster and the clerk announced the result 45-43. that was two-thirds of the senate present. they decided the senate would go to overbusiness. >> that was october 1968. so long ago we didn't have c-span, we had senate sketch artists like it was a cameras banned from the courtroom situation. it was the last time a supreme
court nominee was filibusters. the last time it was tried, the sam alito nomination, supported by hillary clinton and barack obama, they attempted to filibuster alito's nomination but 20 democratic senators wouldn't go along and that effort failed so the last time they were able to pull this off was '68. is it going to happen again? can they pull it off? prior to tonight's announcement about who the nominee would be for the supreme court seat, before we knew it was going to be neil gorsuch republican senate leader mitch mcconnell had a slugs fuggestion for democrats -- don't filibuster. >> what i would suggest from our democratic friends is that the nominee be handled similarly to president clinton's two nominees in his first term and president obama's two nominees in his first term. >> president obama's two nominees in his first term, i'd
like to get really specific. right? because they don't want to talk about the third nomination that president obama made. no mention of merrick garland, president obama's third nominee who faced this unprecedented black cade by republican senators who refused since last march to even hold a hearing on his nomination despite the fact merrick garland was a completely non-controversial nomination. well, tonight the new republican president announced that supreme court judge neil gorsuch is his choice for that supreme court that merrick garland was supposed to be the nominee for. after gorsuch was announced as the nominee we got this statement from the democratic leader chuck schumer. "the senate must insist upon 60 votes for any supreme court nominee, a bar that was met by each of president obama's nominees. the burden is on judge gorsuch to prove himself to be within the legal mainstream and in this new era willing to vigorous ly
defend the constitution from the executive branch. the democratic senator affirming they're going to insist on a 60-voter there hold. republicans don't have 60 votes in the senate. this means democrats are going to filibuster. senate democrats were already under intention pressure from democratic voters who have been loudly upset with democrats casting votes for trump cabinet nominees. that pressure will intensify on democrats now that we have a supreme court nomination as well even before we got the name tonight one democratic senator had been standing up loudly and overtly saying he would filibuster pick regardless of who was because, he said, republicans effectively stole the supreme court seat from president obama. the senator who has been making that case all along is oregon senator jeff merkley joining us now. senator, thank you very much for being up late and being here with us on nomination night. >> you're welcome, rachel, wouldn't miss it. >> does the announcement of
judge gorsuch's name, does that change your mind at all about your desire to fill bust they are nomination? >> not at all. the point i was making was we must not forget this. this was not a normal consideration. this is a seat that was stolen from the former president, obama, that's never been done in u.s. history before to let this become normal just invites a complete partisan polarization of the court from here to eternity. at what point does a majority say in the future we won't let someone make a nomination two years into their four years or three years into their four years or their entire four years? so i made it clear i was going to insist on a 60-vote standard and that i would vote against closing debates. sos th s thathis is the way you what we refer to as the filibuster and we hope there will be enough votes to shut it
down. >> how many senator do you need to join with you in order to make it so judge gorsuch has to clear 60 votes? >> you have to have 41 senators vote against closing debate. >> there are 48 democratic senators. >> of the 48 you need 41. >> so we have either 48 who are either democrats or caucusing with the democrats. do you have sense of your colleagues' views towards this and whether or not you think you'll clear that 41 vote number. >> well, i suspect we're going to hear a lot of statements from colleagues but the colleagues who we're waiting to see if possibly the president would nominate someone like merrick garland are going to be sorely disappointed tonight. this is from the extreme right, someone who has said corporations are people, made that case, someone who has proceeded to be against class action suits which the only opportunity for fairness for a lot of citizens. you go case by case by case,
this was about the powerful and the privilege and oppressing the righ of people. i think there will be an enormous number of senators who decide that this person is not suitable because they will not honor our we the people vision of government embedded in our constitution. >> senator merkley, i've sort of been reading the tea leaves on this a little bit trying to get a sense of where the democrats in the senate are on this and whether or not this is a time when we might expect a democratic effort a big deal, that would be a heavy lift in political terms not just because of the qualifications of this nominee but because it would set a new standard for what it means to get a supreme court justice. i look at the size of those protests in the streets, the mood of the democratic base right now, the reaction of democratic voters and protesters to what the new administration is doing and who they've nominated to the cabinet and i see a lot of momentum. i see a lot of energy.
how do you know whether or not it's going to translate into this working. are you worried if you try and fail democrats will be showing weakness here? >> i never worry about trying and failing. you have to fight the battle you believe in and that's what enables you to win is to undertake that battle. i can tell you this weekend i had two town halls on saturday. the first had 600 folks crowded into a gym that could only fit about 400. it was almost scary and i thought i am never going to see another town hall like this. i went to my second town hall and 3700 citizens showed up to weigh in about how angry they are, how frustrated they are about how america has gone way off track after just the ten days of this presidential leadership by trump. >> senator jeff amerimerkley of oregon about to be involved in one of the political fights of your life, sir, thank you for helping us understand, appreciate you being here.
>> this is going to be interesting. what jeff merkley has said will be the democratic strategy is to get 41 democrats to line up with the filibuster. they have 48 democratic or caucusing with the democratic caucus senators in the senate. if they can get 41 of the 48 to side with this strategy they can, at least theoretically, block this nomination from the minority. it would be a radical move, it would change the way that supreme court nominees are approved in this country, sort of been changing on its own anyway but this is going to be a fascinating thing to watch and it will be fascinating to see if those protesters out on the street, people showing up in town hall meetings and all those things over the country if they'll backstop their democratic senators on this strategy. this is going to be a hell of a fight. we'll be right back. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing.
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gathered tonight outside the supreme court building. we're keeping an eye on that as we've had daily and nightly protests against some aspect of the trump administration every day for the last ten days. we'll keep you posted on that over the course of the evening. "how to win at business." step one: suck on and point decisively with the arm of your glasses. it is no longer eyewear, it is your wand of business wizardry. abracadabra. you've just gone from invisible to invincible.
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helped invent scuba gear which opened up whole new worlds of human interaction with the sea. he ultimately dedicated himself to documenting the ocean. jacques cousteau films won three oscars, ten em mys. he became a pretty vocal and world famous environmentalist. he testified before congress about a bananas plan that had been developed by the u.s. government, a plan to burn toxic waste at sea. there was a plan that they would set aside a 30 mile by 40 mile rectangle off the coast of delaware and maryland. and that would be the place where we'd put one of the nation's biggest waste disposal companies on ships to burn toxic substances. they were going to burn these
toxins in huge incinerator ships right off the coast of delaware and maryland. because who cares? it's just the ocean. the amazing thing is that a major proponent of this plan was the epa. they thought it was a great idea. the agency called it well developed and understood technology. if that sounds crazy, it's because that's crazy. and that's what the epa was like under president ronald reagan. and the now mostly forgeten failures and scandals of his time in office, one of the ones we are now remembering is the way the epa was run at the beginning of his presidency, specifically under this epa administrator. she was the first female administrator of the epa. she didn't last long. she had to resign after 22 months on the job. after all, there was the idea to use big swaths of the ocean to burn our toxic waste.
one of the biggest controversies of her tenure involved super fund sites because this is how president reagan and his epa administrator handled super fund sites. >> the people of glenn avon, california, may owe their lives to the big trucks that haul away spring water from the edge of town. the water is laced with lead and pcps and other poisons. and the trucks, paid for by the state of california, weren't hauling off thousands of gallons of water a day now, glenn avon would be uninhabitable. most of the money comes from a special tax on chemical and oil companies. 1$1.6 billion should be raised f but critics say the super fund hasn't been used enough because of political delays political delays, example the springfellow acid pitsny of the
been spent yet. as for the charges of going too easy on industry, example, s seymour recycling, seymour, indiana. the philosophy of super fund was to spend now and sue later, sue the companies that polluted. >> super fund wasn't spent on seymour. instead of suing epa negotiated an agreement with the polluters who promised to spend $8 million to clean it up. this was the kind of coverage around super fund sites during the reagan era of the epa. photos like this running night after night after night on national evening newscasts turned out to be enough to shame somebody into resigning. the handling and the corruption arounds super funds sites under reagan ended up ending the tenure of his epa administrator
>> they continued to talk on twitter. he wrote iran is playing with firement firement. here is what sean spicer today. >> i think today's action speaks for itself in terms of the sanctions. he made it clear the deal they struck was a bad deal. they going to continue to be tough on iran in a way that was notice done in the last eight years. in the way -- >> the associated press notes "the new sanctions represent continueuation limited punishment for iran ballistic activity over nuclear deal itself. it was drawn up before obama
left office. the new president sounds a lot like the last one. according to the times this is a quote, barack obama embracing key pillars including warning israel to curve settlement in the west bank and threatening sanctions for ballistic tests. i'm glad we have heavy weights because i'm nervous. we have had a number of presidency destroyed about that issue. whether iran contraon hostage -- why is he pushing them on this
ballistic tests? >> their words are bigger and much more bellicose. >> -- behave yourself. >> yes. the actions are important, they are good -- >> the sanctions are like obamas? >> like the previous team. the twitter feed and the sta statements are tough. >> what's on notice mean? it sounded like something like tuck man in world war i. why are we saying you're on notice. >> they are preparing the battlefield for military action. i think they are going to -- >> to what effect? >> to deter iran and prevent
them from destabilizing syria, and the other countries. >> couldt be he trying to humiliate them to drop the deal? >> if you look at what they done, you cannot say that. they could have made this part of the nuclear deal, they close not to. i think the question is this is where they are going to talk tough or do things to upset the regular order or is it something of moing into military action. i don't they we know yet. i don't think -- >> it's opposite of teddy roosevelt and the big stick. >> at the moment it is. >> words matter. >> donald trump is entering the twilight zone aka the middle
east. don't forget within the last few days he had long conversations wi with persian gulf, king abdue la, i covered trump, i know he charged up by about the last person he talked to, he was talking to sunni, be tough on aran and having netanyahu coming, that's what they want to hear. they are going where we just heard he was going. they worry that trump is preparing for military action. >> donald trump's language sounds like -- when he states
that a strong positn against stupid wars and accused hillary clinton of being trigger happy. let's rep mind ourselves how trump won. >> obviously, the war in iraq was a mistake. >> the war in airaq -- iran is taking over with the second largest in the world. they said there were weapons of mass destruction, there were none. they knew there were none. >> times it seemed like there wasn't a country in the middle east that hillary clinton didn't want to invade intervenor topple. she trigger happy and unstable. >> let's talk politics. he talking my language there, the dove language. we knocked over jokes -- than
new region we don't know where they are heading toward. now israel if you want to be pro-israel. you think it was strategic off when it had buffers. they are willing to fight. my question, does trump know what he doing when he doing this saber rant when offering the -- >> those are not the characterization that we see with -- responding to political situation. i'm not sure if he adjusted yet to the reality of being the commander in chief in terms of how much his words matter. in the cases of australia not a country to invader have
military action -- >> let's talk to reagan for a minute. during the cold war, it could have been a cause for war. we l the korean plane shot down, all of these incidents reagan would say it's bad, it should not have happened. does trump have the temperment to see that. >> i don't see that's his view. this team including bannon and others is radical jihadists. they believe it's sheik extremist.
>> what is there plan? >> their plan is to racket up the pressure and -- >> they want us in there. we get drawn in there on their tem territory and you come home wounded. >> they want to collapse the region. >> i think that's what's going on. flynn the new national security visor and bannon think the way to defeat two headed force is somehow islamic state in iran is going to crumble. >> wow. >> that's what they think because they are being told by iranians in united states who hate islamic republic but have different theories how to fight it. >> this sounds familiar. >> this is -- this is iran version. >> right. >> they have telling flynn and
bannon if you put enough pressure on these people, in the people will rise up and overthrow them -- >> we have been hearing this from -- here is what module ating force. >> we don't believe the existence is impediment to peace but existing settlement is not going to be helpful moving forward. >> tmay be that was the last conversation he had with the king abdullah over there. the only alternative is for is ram decide between democracy.
cannot have people having kids and non-israeli people living in israel. >> he has to be concerned about the fate -- >> absolutely. >> did you think trump is responsive to king abdullah situation if they move embassy to jet strerusalem? >> i think they are thinking about it. the settlements is everything but all of nothing. >> but they want more, bb. >> they will get more. >> i think he will get more. >> it may have been a little bit of everything it may be -- the ones there are there, a future ones may be a problem. he had been unwilling in the
past to entertain the idea the u.s. -- >> you made bb is coming where there's a list of requirements. back in may he had this to say. let's watch. >> i think u.s. have to keep going, have to keep moving forward. i done think there should be a pause. missiles were launch into israel. you know how devastating that is. >> abdullah and the gulf want something from the donald trump -- the statement about the settlements not out of donald trump's mouth it was sean spicer's statement. the sunnis want something before
net raw h netanyahu. trump is triing of the world like a real estate deal in manhattan. he thing he understands how complex the stuff is. >> let make one point here. we have arab world. we have the sun nis, there's a difference. with the seven-nation ban, that nails most of the she ads country, we are making a point of making a message to arab country that we're not on your side coming from donald trump.
>> i don't think it should be thought of as going down into the arab world. we're going to take their oil, that does not go down well on the arab street. >> can you american soldier dying so grab oil well and hold them. >> it's not american. >> it's colonial. thank you all. coming up it's been -- it's only been two weeks. is there a method to all of this stuff. we're diagnose going to get to the story that's intiesing. nyc in protests on the right. what's happening to free speech on campus. why is president still dancing
with arnold, he tweeting about the bad job he doing -- why is trump hot dogging with with the terminator. this is "hardball" where the action is. advil liqui - gels work so fast you'll ask what bad back? what pulled hammy? advil liqui - gels make pain a distant memory nothing works faster stronger or longer what
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it there are four chiefs of staff and that's three too many. the trump administration have generated leaks from the white house and other branchs. trying to nail down the leakers is like to -- who covers the white house for political koe. thank you. first of all, everybody watching now, you sense there's a occasional quiet moment where he does something normal. the way he brought out neil gorsuch, a speech written and he read it and everything was charming in the way it was done. the way muslim man on seven countries who cannot come here
have aspect of crazy. >> there are other things that are more moderate. he has a rang of people he needs to work with so he is -- he tap dancing in between two group, agos lt right and center right. >> he drives him toward this nationalistic fer ver. there's reince priebus who is republican he represents the way things are normally done. are they fighting it out every day? >> are they fighting for the
last person to talk to him before the oval office, that's what's going on? >> exactly what's going on. the last person who speaks to trump -- he follows the last person who churped in his ear. >> churped. >> in the last white house joe biden made an agreement he said i want to be the last person to say with the in the meetings and i'll join if you can promise me that. >> he knows how bureaucracies work. >> exactly. you have steve bannon a loyalist
with him. he a moderate who paul ryan and mitch mcconnell can work with. you have four people competing to have the last word and bannon and reince are staffing up with own loyalist. >> bannon and who? >> reince priebus. >> i have never seen so many leaks with impunity. you pick up the paper, it will say a confidant says he doesn't like the clothes that sean spicer wears to press conferences. is this how he talks to his people through the press? >> this is high functioning
people. it starts with trump. he has been using the media for 40 years. the fact is this is a group that has sharp elbows. they are talking to the press -- even though they profess to hate the press, they use the press. it's fascinating thing to watch. the part of this beginning of the administration where everyone trying to figure out what their roles are. -- the muslims saw it that way. >> he got beyond the skis. that strengthens reince who have
charge -- >> i agree. so many top cabinet officials and lawmakers were blind sided by the whole thing by limiting the information inside and outside of the white house, he doesn't trust -- bannon is one tough customer. he was a war buddy. he was the trenches with trump. he has the street credit to go up torumpo say i got you buddy. >> bannon is looking for own communicati communicati communication consultant. >> right. >> how did he get own seat? >> he has his own clout.
policy a lot of it is flowing from bannon. reince is not a policy guy like bannon is. >> the president of the united states factions building empire building. i thought they are here for me. >> you would think that. you have been at this, you find out when you make decisions, you get into a small room, and people like to make decisions in decred decisions in secret. you have things that do not get implemented or get implemented poorly. if you are donald trump you want to see competition, you want to see people on the -- you want to see the survival of the fitness. >> that sound like he nooeian.
the wals have ears because everything gets out. thank you. why is president trump still fighting this dance with the apprentice successor schwarzenegger. why is he fieighting the guy. this is "hardball" where the action is. just like the people who own them, everbusiss is diffent. but every one of those businesses will need legal help as they age and grow. whether it be help starting your business, vendor contracts or employment agreements. legalzoom's network of attorneys can help you every step of the way so you can focus on what you do. we'll handle the legal stuff that comes up along the way. legalzoom. legal help is here. what twisted ankle?ask
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msnbc news a federal judge has temporarily block president trump executive order that bans immigration from 7 muslims countries. the restraining order is effective nationwide while he considers a lawsuit against the order. that order is being challenged by the attorney geral in washington state and minnesota who say it's unconstitutional. president trump tweeted this. we must be evil out of our country. for now, back to "hardball." >> we have tremendous success on the apprentice and had i ran for president i had to leave the show. they hired a big movie star arnold schwarzenegger to take my
place and we know how that turned out. the ratings are down the tube, it's a total disaster and mark never bet against trump dwen again. i want to pray if we can. >> that was the president trump taking swipe at successor on the variety show "the apprentice." it took governor to respond on this important issue. >> he donald, i have a idea. we switch jobs, you take over tv and i take over your job and people with finally sleep comfortably again, hmm. >> this morning the tweeter and chief was back at it. even worse on the apprentice but
he tried hard. this is president of the united states talking. it would be impossible for -- mr. schwarzenegger former governor would face roadblock including the fact he was born in australia. it dates back in early january when then president trump was x why on god's earth is he distracting from -- some hope in this new administration why is he distracting from a important supreme court nomination that may succeed. here he is focusing on a fight
with a guy who he got the job for. what is the mo motivation. what is it? what could it be? >> he doesn't let anything go, so we start there. you remember how parent and teacher taught you, you don't bring someone down to bring yourself up. no one taught him that. i'm going to rise above you and shove you down too so i look better by comparison. >> but that fight over the ratings for the "celebrity apprentice" are not important to 99.99% of this country. he has a mixed career, it's tough to succeed anybody. anybody cares in that sense who
wins the competition. why did he go to prayer breakfast to do it. this is shooting fish in barrel. why did he go to prayer breakfast to say i'm praying for arnold, had he is not. >> he wants his score to be higher. the apprentice wasn't doing well when donald trump decided to run for president. now if it fails -- >> our network nbc are larger network did try to get much to stick around and do that. they were succeeding with the show. >> it was in the 70s and he likes to go around saying he is number one. it's a challenge to be measured and found lacking.
also, arnold schwarzenegger is a vibrant attractive guy. if he feels arnold's ratings are higher in terms of public acclaim he is not going to like that. >> throughout the campaign donald trump showed understanding and appreciate of optics and appearances. here he goes. >> every place i go, we have thousands and thousands this was only restricted by the size of the room, we have -- it's packed. >> see how beautiful those hands are? >> here is a company i built and started with without a loan now it's worth over $10 billion. that's the kind of thinking the country needs. >> 285 drive. he doesn't say where the ball
landed. what about the hand size things. it's always metrics. >> i don't know how his hands compare to anybody else. they seem normal to me. i think it's about sensitive to being compared. if someone else has some sign of favor with the public especially with celebrity and you have to remember celebrity was his first interest, he promoted empire through celebrity he going to compete with that person. i love that quote of him saying this i don't say this to brag, but all he does is brag. >> i have a theory, one he be f behaves like a guy who doesn't have much money.
the gold tower, it's -- it's a fantasy. this other thing. he is like frank sin na tra. there's something about the guy is ready to put up the dukes. >> thank you. up next, another night of protests. the "hardball" roundtable joins us now in the age of free speech in the age of trump. you're watching "hardball" where the action is. nt. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business... which adds fuel to my bottom line.
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protests against president trump and initiative. he accused protests of being thugs and paid -- four c categories. the resistors like those from the women's march. the real question for the opposition is which way to go. joining me is the roundtable. kevin paul scott, republican strategyist. >> let start with ann about this, the women, democrats and the people burning cars and
everything else. >> absolutely. if there's one thing that undermines the legitimate protests movement is having guys burning burning limos or -- it gives anyone a reason to think that's face of people who are protesting trumt's election or the executive order. >> i don't think they care what they are sayg. it causes tuble for the political process, so what. >> an ark kiist don't care about anything. with hundreds of thousand of people with -- but over the country that's lead leaving out
the people all over the world protesting about specific things he has done since being president. the president and his administration can say look at the anarchist, look at the anarchist, but people are protesting about real things. >> they will stop for dinner and can drive for another ten hours. there's a jackknife on the beltway inner loop or outer loop. that's the way it is. y you set a fire, we late it. but setting a fire gets you in the news. >> that's right. right now the face of the opposition is these professional anarchist, college students, these are fair weather free
speech, they don't like this. the rest of the america looks and says if that's what opposing donald trump, maybe i'm a little closer, it makes crazy things he do not as crazy. >> what portion, give me a number? >> 70%. >> 70% of the country. >> if you're talking about cal berkeley, when you say -- if that's the face of the opposition that riles people up. >> you're a news person, straights straight down the middinmid middle i don't think it's fair to say 70% of the --
>> it's easy for a lot of people to hold up to berkeley as an example of a lot of things, the left coast, it's all of those things, that make it a symbol beyond the black ski masks. people are arrested in ohio too, this is happening this a lot of different places. >> you know this is a dynamic. these people are going to keep giving their speeches, rich spence who got sucker punched. >> that's is their freedom. people want to protests those people speeching, that is their right too. where i get off the train is when people decide to break windows.
>> right. >> do they represent the movement, no. >> let ask you, if your opinion, what percentage of the opposition wants to negotiate with them try to get the best you can, even bernie sanders, says i want to get a goo trade deal out of this guy, how many want to make sure want to be known as total resist err. how is that dividing politics? >> i don't have a percentage for you. the names you mentioned are the ones i would have too. you see in the -- you say your interesting in infrastructure, i'll write an infrastructure bill and dare you to say no to it it. that's a way. that's an negotiating tactic.
>> all we're dealing with -- >> how many people were saying i want to screw this guy, undermine him, like mitch mcconnell did with president obama. >> it's 50/50, we're dealing with a president executive order -- >> he sent nominees up. >> sure. ann is talking about infrastructure bill. >> if he wants to be enticing, he can make it -- he can put capitalization bill. up next,
. >> it's a temporary restraining order on president trump immigration executive order which bans muslim from -- this coming into us. what do we know about it. >> richard the judge grant a request two states this order would be unconstitutional and illegal he put temporary stop on enforcing a executive order. it sounds dramatic. anyone who applied for visa those visa are no longer valid the executive order issued last week render them invalled if you want to km to the u.s. from the kunt kuns have to go back and reapply for a visa.
early they can do that is monday. in the meantime, the government will go to appeals court and try to get a stay on the judge's order. it's a uncertain area. it's a bit of a gray area but for now, in the immediate day or so, it's going to have no practical effect. >> no practical effect here, pete. last weekend when the stay came down from the court, the federal court in brooklyn and this happening almost a week later, the differences between the two, you're saying, effectively are very little. what about legally? >> there's something like ten different lawsuits in ten different courts around the country. today a judge in boston declined to put a stay on the executive order. this judge in seattle agreed to put a stay so this is probably going to be fits and starts in the courts for the next several weeks until this gets worked out and it may eventually go to the supreme court but this judge's
order today is round one. >> round one. and the words used, stay was the word we saw often heard last weekend. this week we're hearing -- today within the last couple hrs "restraining order." any difference between those two? >> no. it's a temporary restraining order is -- was applied to just specific people that they wanted to try to stop from being deported. what this judge has ordered today says is the government can't enforce this executive order and -- for now. but as i say the immediate practical effect is zero. >> with all the efforts happening across the country, are they vastly different or very similar in effect here as you're describing what the last two are? >> basically similar lawsuits in all these courts, that i basically say it's unconstitutional because it treats people differently depending on where they come from. it's illegal and some argue it's
religious discrimination, richard, back to you. >> pete williams, thank you so much. also joining this hour is katie fang, msnbc legal contributor. katie, this just coming down to us at msnbc. anything that stands out from what you're learning about this particular restraining order? up with of the notes that has been made is that they were reflecting, at least the attorneys general, on statements made during the election process and then bringing it forward to this effort they were bringing to a federal court in washington. >> sure. i don't disagree with a lot of what people said in terms of the no practical effect statement pete just made but from a legal standpoint a temporary restraining order is such a high standard to be met, as a lawyer when you're seeking this typef injunctiverelief, it's a big deal to get it, even in a temporary sense. it has a declaration by a federal court judge that this underlying lawsuit that's been brought by the attorney general
in washington and minnesota, that it has the likelihood of succeeding. whether or not it does we know is left to be seen but ultimately there will be some type of determination by perhaps the highest court in the land, our supreme court, as to whether or not this executive order issued by donald trump actually has the teeth and legs to continue to be enforced throughout the united states. >> so practically you and pete williams are saying nothing different. the stay versus the restraining order, how are the two different goal pests different for those against this executive order? >> it's six of one, half dozen of another in terms of the stay having the application, the temporary restraining order has the same. they have to battle it out in but but the arguments that were made were the statements asserted during this election process proves the intent of parties, people like trump and the administration in terms of why this executive order was issued and whether or not it has legitimate bases versus just being a ban against muslims.
>> katie, 30 sektsdconds. what's next for the trump administration? >> trump is going to try to go and the trump administration is going to try to go and seek whether or not they can overturn the temporary restraining order but frankly the amount of time upon this temporary restraining order is not going to be very long there will be an immediate court date, yet another evidentiary hearing and why is that important? because there's the presentation of evidence, subpoenas, people that will testify regarding this. >> thank you so much, katie fang, msnbc legal contributor, for stopping by on this breaking news. again, a restraining order coming out of the state of washington related to the executive order that president trump signed one week ago. we'll continue to follow what's happening with this particular news item, for now, "hardball" will return after this very short break. thanks for staying with us. i have asthma...
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country who care about the world and care about people who have made this country their home. what did trump do about the sense he had gone overboard and had been too held bebt about meeting the campaign promise, he carried forward with a first rate made for prime time presentation of neil gorsuch, his nominee for the supreme court. so what's going on? are there people in the white house acting as stabilizers, shock absorbers or know when the leader has gotten too far ahead that it's time for him to rejoin the troops, that even his own supporters are getting jumpy or is it some self-corrector in the guy himself, something that sounds a quiet alert that alerts him to the fact that the let trump be trump thing has run its course. that he's banging up against a wild barrier and better show people he has things together and can, if necessary, run things the normal way, the way that calms people down and makes him seem like he's been on the job for more than two weeks. we'll no know soon enough whether or not it's the people that bust in or some internal alarm system that tells trump to
special counsel? eventually can he fire everyone? i mean, it's going to be fascinating tomorrow. >> we're going to hear every one of those questions. what we don't know is how many answers we're going to hear. >> yeah. >> that we're not sure of. >> yeah. this question of executive privilege and what they're going the call executive privilege and such a -- i mean that's a difficult legal theory anyway. that's not a cut and dried thing even in the best of circumstances, i think we're going to get into appeals court territory pretty quickly tomorrow. >> and i have a feeling that jeff sessions isn't going to rely on the feelings pleading that we heard last week from dan coats and the director of nsa. it is my feeling that i shouldn't talk about this. >> i have discomfort. yeah. >> yes. >> i have a gavel. >> we will seattle. thank you, rachel. >> thanks. >> when president nixon fired the special prosecutor investigating him, he did it on a friday night and shocked
headline writers who immediately called it the saturday night massacre. no one saw that coming, no one. everyone in the country was shocked. but because the trump white house is the leakiest white house in history, we know tonight that the president is thinking about firing special prosecutor robert mueller. and the first wave of commentary that you may have heard about this included many people repeating the phrase "can't imagine." as in can't imagine that the president would actually fire the special prosecutor. if you can't imagine that, you have not been paying attention. to president donald trump. >> trump and the people around him are not acting like people who have nothing to hide. >> it's jeff sessions' turn to answer questions from the senate intelligence committee about russia. >> the last time he was here, he testified and gave false testimony. >> i did not have communications with the russians.
>> we got a lot of questions we want to ask him. >> he violated his own recusal. >> if the president okay testifying in this setting tomorrow? >> i think he is going to testify. we're aware of it and go from there. >> i think what republicans ought to focus on is closing down the independent counsel. >> could the president fire bob mueller? >> firing special prosecutors tends not to work, as we all learned from watergate. >> you may be the first president in history to go down because you can't stop inappropriately talking about an investigation. >> what we're calling stupid watergate, something with all the potential national shame of watergate brought to you by people too stupid to grasp the concept of shame. >> mr. president, it's been an honor to serve. >> i can't thank you enough. >> it looked to me something out of north korea or the soviet politburo. >> we thank you for the blessing you have given us. >> april ryan, the white house
correspondent for american urban radio networks is reporting there is, quote, mass hysteria, that's her term, mass hysteria in the white house tonight because the president is considering firing special prosecutor robert mueller. tonight on the pbs news hour, chris ruddy, a confidante of the president said this to judy woodruff. >> i think he is considering perhaps terminating the special counsel. i think he is weighing that option. i think it's pretty clear what one of his lawyers said on television recently. i personally think it would be a very significant mistake, even though i don't think there is a justification, and even though -- i mean, here you have a situation -- >> chris ruddy had just come from the white house before doing that interview with judy woodruff. the report of mass hysteria in the white house tonight is based on the point that chris ruddy just made, even though he is a trump supporter who believe there's shouldn't be a special prosecutor, he believes it would be politically disastrous for
the president to fire the special prosecutor. when president nixon fired the special prosecutor that was closing in on him, the president then felt the resulting political pressure was so strong that it forced president nixon to then allow the appointment of a replacement special prosecutor. leon jaworski who carried the watergate investigation to its conclusion which force president nixon to resign. tomorrow afternoon when attorney general jeff sessions appears to testify to the senate intelligence committee, he will be asked about firing the special prosecutor, if the special prosecutor has already been fired by tomorrow afternoon, such is the suspense we live with, then jeff sessions will be asked about any conversations he had about firing the special prosecutor. he'll be asked why the special prosecutor was fired. but if special prosecutor robert mueller has not yet been fired
as of tomorrow afternoon, then jeff sessions will be asked if he will resign if the special prosecutor is fired. that is what attorney general elliot richardson did when president nixon ordered him to fire special prosecutor archibald cox. elliot richardson refused the president's order and resigned. and then the deputy attorney general williams ruckelhaus refused that same order, and then he refused. and then robert bourque obeyed the president's order. and that was remembered when robert bourque 14 years later was nominated by president reagan to fill a supreme court vacancy and his nomination was defeated by a vote of 58-42. what happens in the firing of robert mueller be remembered for the rest of the lives of anyone who participates in that firing. technically, the president does not have the direct power to fire the special prosecutor. only the attorney general has that power. but since attorney general jeff sessions has recused himself from matters involving the
special prosecutor's investigation of the trump administration's russian connections, the prosecutor to fire the special prosecutor now rests with deputy attorney general rod rosenstein, the man who appointed the special prosecutor. this evening we have been hearing many, many commentators say they just cannot imagine that president trump would have the special prosecutor fired. everyone who has said that is a very slow learner about the capacities of the trump administration. one senator has already imagined it. senator kamala harris of california last week asked rod rosenstein to guarantee in writing that the special prosecutor would not be fired. that exchange became memorable not so much for the assistance for the style of rod rosenstein's response in which he seemed to try to avoid giving senator harris an answer, and more importantly, it was remembered for senator harris' persistence in getting an answer.
>> would you agree, mr. rosenstein, to provide a letter to director mueller similarly providing that director mueller has the authority as special counsel, quote, independent of the supervision or control of any officer of the department and ensure that director mueller has the authority that is plenary and not, quote, defined or limited by the special counsel regulations? >> senator, i'm very sensitive about time, and i'd like to have a very lengthy conversation and explain that all to you. >> can you give me a yes or no? >> it's not a short answer, senator. >> it is. either you are willing to do that or not, as we have precedent in that regard. >> chairman, they should be allowed to answer the question. >> i realize that theoretically anybody can be fired. and so there is a potential for undermining an investigation. i am confident, senator, that director mueller, mr. mccabe and i and anybody else who may film those positions in the future will protect the integrity of
that investigation. that's my commitment to you, and that's the guarantee that you and the american people have. >> so is that a no? >> she took that as a no. kind of the best line of that exchange was just cut off in our video. that now turns out to be possibly the most important question that was asked at that hearing. there were many other important questions asked of the other witnesses that got all the air time that day. but now, now that question. looms as the most important. that is the only time that rod rosenstein has been questioned about firing the special prosecutor. and his answer was theoretically anyone could be fired. he did give a guarantee, sounded like his personal guarantee that he would protect the integrity of the investigation. we will find out what that guarantee is worth. we'll find out what that means, if the president tries to fire a special prosecutor robert mueller. we will find out if rod rosenstein simply refuses to carry out that order.
and if he does refuse, then we will find out if he then immediately resigns following the elliot richardson model, or perhaps more interestingly, rod rosenstein refuses to carry out the order and he doesn't resign. and he tries to appoint another special prosecutor. then we'll see if the president then fires rod rosenstein. or might attorney general jeff sessions decide that he will carry out the president's order and fire robert mueller himself? even though he has recused himself from the russia investigation. then does rod rosenstein resign? with a president who is motived by the norms of political cost benefit analysis, we might be able to predict for you what might happen here. with any other attorney general, we might be able to predict what the attorney general would do. if the president wanted the special prosecutor fired. what we do know is that from the start, president trump has behaved not like a politician who is concerned with how things
look and how they will look in the next election, he has behaved as senator franken said like he has something to hide, something big. and we know a lot about jeff sessions, but not enough to predict what he will do if the president orders the firing of the special prosecutor. and so tonight the investigation of the president and his associates has hit another stunning suspense point. will the special prosecutor be fired? it was a question that rod rosenstein thought he could ignore last week. and most of the media thought it could be ignored last week when kamala harris asked about that. but tonight here we are. it's the question of the night. and we don't know what attorney general jeff sessions will do. we don't know if he will do the right thing and stand up to the president. this might be the night when jeff sessions looks into his soul and decides that the place he wants to occupy in history is
as an attorney general who did the right thing when the president tried to fire the special prosecutor. if this happens, if the president does try to fire the special prosecutor, jeff sessions should know that what he then does will define his place in history. it will overwhelm everything he has ever done in his past, good or bad. it will be the thing he is remembered for. no one remembers ellio richardson for being the attorney general of massachusetts. no one remembers anything else elliot richardson did as the attorney general of the united states. they remember only that elliot richardson did the right thing on one night of his life when president nixon wanted to fire the special prosecutor. and unfortunately, everything that we do know about jeff sessions tells us that jeff sessions is no elliot richardson. joining us now walter dallinger who served as head of the office
of legal counsel. he was acting solicitor general from 1996 to '97. john heilemann, national affairs analyst for msnbc news and msnbc. and david frum, senior editor at the atlantic. take us through the possibilities here. and one of the things i want to consider as we approach this, jeff sessions may already be a subject of the special prosecutor's investigation, possibly for perjury in testifying to the senate, or possibly involving his possible russian connections. it is -- is it possible that jeff sessions tonight has to worry that if he participates in the firing of the special prosecutor, that could add a obstruction of justice risk to him in what could become any investigation that follows that? investigation that follows that? >> well, as you know, attorney general sessions recused himself from anything having to do with
the investigation into russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. for him to unrecuse himself and to participate in any decision to dismiss the special counsel i think would place him at extraordinary personal legal jeopardy. so i cannot imagine, no matter how loyal he may be to donald trump that he would be the one to step into that at his own personal legal peril. it's much more likely that in the unthinkable world in which we were to dismiss the special counsel that the president would direct the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein to do that, i knew rosenstein a bit. most people who have been in washington justice department law enforcement know him. i find it unthinkable that he would accept and carry out such an order. i believe that he would resign and that the president would have to go down the list. one of the problems is there are not many confirmed officials in
the department of justice who are in the hierarchy to become acting deputy attorney general and to take on that authority. i don't know how many people would have to resign before president trump would find someone who would carry out the order to discharge mr. mueller. you have to remember the extraordinary confidence that robert mueller has among federal judges all across the country, among fbi agents all across the country, among republicans and democrats who have been in law enforcement or justice or law firms who is a republican who served for two terms under president bush as director of the fbi. i mean, this is -- this would be such an extraordinarily shocking event that it would not simply call into question the integrity of this investigation, it would call into question whether we really were operating under the rule of law at all. >> let's listen to newt gingrich
making the case for firing the special prosecutor. >> i think that what republicans ought to focus on is closing down the independent counsel, because he is not independent. he apparently is very close to comey. we know comey hates trump. you have to assume that that has to leak over to mueller. and you have to assume that the people mueller is going to bring in are essentially justice department people who were 33-1 in favor of clinton over trump. >> david frum, your reaction to newt gingrich. >> first, he is calling him an independent counsel. that's an important mistake. the independent counsel law was allowed to lapse attend of the last century because there were doubts of constitution. that the special counsel is
under the president because people have argued the president can be trusted to investigate himself. if that turns out not to be true, you are into political recommend dolphins most dire kind. maybe newt gingrich would welcome that because it's kind of an apocalyptic scenario and he enjoys those. i don't want to sound like i have the limited imagination you condemn. but if president trump really does fire robert mueller, he might as well hire a sky writer to trace over the white house i am super guilty. >> john heilemann, newt gingrich seems to be laying out the kind of talking points if this goes forward, i would expect to hear from more republicans. >> right. i mean, look, there is one version of kind of conventional political analysis, lawrence, that says look, this is never going to happen. that newt gingrich and the other assorted trump allies throughout are effectively, i say this on the night of another game in the nba finals, working the refs,
are trying to muddy up robert mueller, are trying to launch a campaign against him to damage his credibility going forward. and importantly, to gin up some of the flagging enthusiasm of the trump base that we've been reading about in polling analysis over the course of the last few days that the white house is very concerned about the notion that they understand that he is never going to be a 50.1% president, that they need to keep his base whipped up. they need to keep it solid. and these kind of talking points are part of the way to do that. i think that that conventional political analysis is probably right as far as it goes, but like you, i don't think it's at all unthinkable, i don't think the supposedly unthinkable is at all unthinkable given what we have seen so far over the course this administration. it does feel to me tonight -- i'm not predicting this is going to happen. it could end up being that the conventional analysis is right. it could be possible that we're standing right now at the brink of a constitutional crisis.
>> let's go back to the nixon model. let's remember the most important thing about the nixon case. the president was guilty, and he knew that when he fired the special prosecutor. and so a lot of the analysis of president trump is of a politician who is trying to preserve his political future. what if what we have here is someone who is guilty, who knows he is guilty? firing the special prosecutor has a logic to it. >> it is like a confession. here is a difference. with president nixon in 1973, he faced a special -- he faced a congress that was politically and idealogically sympathetic to him because conservative democrats had the upper hand. but it was in the hands of the upper party in both houses. he couldn't count on their total come place sense. donald trump may be gambling that he can, or to follow what john says, at least if he revs up the core republican base enough in these safe republican
districts. the great calculation the republicans are all making is as they look with increasing dismay at donald trump, are they safer if they run away from him or are they safer if they cling to him. >> and walter dellinger, play out this drama a bit. if this does happen and let's say we see something like what we saw in the saturday night massacre with the attorney general not either quitting or not being involved in it at all through his recusal, rod rosenstein possibly resigning as you predict he might do, the next person in line, isn't that the old job you had, solicitor general? >> it is, lawrence. but the question is the solicitor general is not confirmed at this moment. and so is not eligible to become acting attorney general. neither is the next ranking person in the department, the head of olc is not yet confirmed. we're sort of entering into a black hole to try to find someone who would carry out this truly unthinkable deed.
>> and so john heilemann, that would leave the administration, leave the white house basically calling over there, having to wire this whole thing ahead of time. they can't stand to go through the surprise of nixon got of discovering what elliot richardson was going to do only when the moment came. >> this again, lawrence, this is the scenario where i do think we get quickly, for the reasons that walter just laid out, you can very quickly find yourself in a constitutional crisis. and i do think to tie up one of the things david said, did this calculation for republicans, who have always held the fate of trump in their hands, not democrats, but republicans, at what point it is more expensive to carry trump as opposed to then stick with him as opposed to run away from him? there is going to be a point where it's more expensive to stick with him. in the black hole constitutional crisis, the notion that the white house is effectively taking over the justice department, and the old standard walls that divided the two and gave some independence, measure of independence to the justice
department have come crumbling down entirely. that is where it becomes unthinkable for me to imagine, or becomes unthinkable that republicans eventually don't look at that and say enough, this is going to destroy us in 2018. we must put a stop to this. i don't know exactly where that point. but that point begins to become maybe, just maybe foreseeable. >> david frum, a quick last word before we go to a break. >> look, but you are hearing, and this is the most ominous thing saying the president has the right to fire him and fire him for any reason that is the new vision of the fbi director. maybe we're going to hear a new vision of the special counsel too. >> david frum, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, the president's cabinet pledged their personal loyalty and devotion to the president today, and they did it publicly, except for a couple of them who held on to their dignity. and later, we'll be joined by a man who was threatened by donald trump with the possibility that he had tape recorded their conversations for use in court.
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the day before it leaked from the house that the president is considering firing the special prosecutor, the president held his first cabinet meeting with his first order of business to have each member of the cabinet humiliate himself or herself by praising the dear leader. reince priebus won the competition hands down for the most fawning public worship of the president. >> on behalf of the entire senior staff around you, mr. president, we thank you for the opportunity and the blessing that you have given us to serve your agenda and the american people. and we're continuing to work very hard every day to accomplish those goals. >> one member of the cabinet refused to disgrace himself in a public display of the kind of personal loyalty that james comey has said the president demands. here is what defense secretary james mattis said. >> mr. president, it's an honor to represent the men and women of the department of defense,
and we're grateful for the sacrifices our people are making in order to strengthen our militaries for our diplomats always negotiate from a position of strength. thank you. >> not one word of praise for trump. there is no word tonight whether president trump is now considering firing secretary mattis for refusing to publicly display his personal loyalty to the president. joining us now, eli stokols, for "the wall street journal" and john heilemann is back with us. eli, the report earlier tonight of mass hysteria in the white house at the thought that the president is actually considering and may very well be very close to deciding to fire the special prosecutor. we think we've seen something close to hysteria inside the white house before. i guess this would be the peak. >> well, it's really hard to know for sure because hysteria, it's sort of chronic. it's almost become the norm inside the west wing. and it's difficult, really, and it's a challenge for journalists to ascertain just to what degree people -- this is sort of a
grade higher than normal when you have conversations, when you a president who is willing to engage pretty much anyone who comes in and out on any topic and who will discuss things that sound crazy when they get leaked to the press. it's difficult for us to know is he serious, is chris ruddy telling the truth? is he actually considering that? i think it was a pr problem this afternoon when it came out you. saw the white house eventually put out a statement. but this is a president that the bottom line is his own staff, his closest aides, they don't know what he is going to do at any given time. and i think that's why every day sort of feels like a four or five-alarm fire over there. >> let's listen to what congressman adam schiff said about this tonight on "hardball." >> what this would prompt if he were to fire bob mueller, congress would immediately take up legislation to reestablish the independent counsel and we would reappoint bob mueller.
>> john heilemann, your reaction to that? >> i'm not sure congressman schiff has the votes for that. that's my immediate reaction to that. it's a snappy line, and as i said before, i do think it's hard to -- i do think there is a chance that if trump were to take this unprecedented and shocking step, i do think that there would be some republicans, some that would say, okay, i'm done with this now. i wash my hands of this. let's take this matter into our own hands. that might not be enough republicans to have the votes to accomplish what adam schiff suggested there. >> but eli, we heard the talking points laid out by newt gingrich about how to describe the legitimacy of firing the special prosecutor. as it happens, the causes for firing the special prosecutor are specified in law, and they are misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or, and that is the vague wide open one, other good cause. and so eli, that's what they'd be working with in trying to justify it.
>> right. that last thing might give them a little leeway. but, you know, i don't think following the law is the most important thing for these folks. this is all about the politics. and we started to see it about 24 hours ago. a lot of republicans who support this white house starting to come out with tweets, with public statements in interviews on television, starting to sort of back the idea, to float the idea of maybe the president should fire the special counsel here. and it's just an indication that as john mentioned, we're sitting here with republicans supporting this president and congress for the most part. the president's base still not abandoning him. and i think what you see if this comes to fruition, we may still be a long way from that. it may not. but if it does, it is a double down on this shoot a person on fifth avenue idea that this president believes that his base will not abandon him, and if the base doesn't abandon him, then the rank and file republicans in congress are not going to abandon him.
so there may be more of a sense in this white house that no matter the optics and how bad it might look to some, how much it might look like he has something to hide, they might believe also that they can get away with this. >> john heilemann and eli stokols, thank you both for joining us. i appreciate it. coming up, when donald trump sued someone who wrote a book about him, he of course lost the case, just humiliated in the litigation. and he used the same lawyer that president trump is using now. and in that same case, donald trump lied about tape recording his own conversations. that's next. my business was built with passion... but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means
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>> thanks to a freedom of information request by "the wall street journal", the united states secret service said today it has no records of any audio recorded in the trump white house. but as "the wall street journal" points out, this doesn't exclude the possibility that recordings could have been created by another entity other than the secret service. joining us now, tim o'brien, the executive editor of bloomberg view, and the author of "trump nation: the art of being the donald." and tim, you were of course sued for writing that book, and marc kasowitz was the lawyer, the lawyer he has defending him in that lawsuit. the issue of audiotapes came up. tell us how that happened. that at some point donald trump said something like i tape recorded our conversation? >> routinely, i was at "the new york times" at the time. and we spoke frequently, multiple times during the week. >> by phone? >> by phone. he doesn't e-mail. he would send letters or i'd see him at the office. but occasionally the end of phone calls he would say i've been taping this. you don't mind if i tape this, do you? that's fine, that's fine.
he would drop it in at the end. and i would be in his office and he would say i might have to start the tape recording system. >> let's go to the under oath deposition in your case. and i'm so glad that he sued you. >> i know you're jealous. >> i'm very jealous. i wanted him to sue me so i would have one of these depositions. here is donald trump under oath. i figured the only way i could make him write what i was saying was to have him at least think that he was being tape recorded. so you believe you may have told him? donald trump, i may have told him. i don't remember, but i may have told him. question, that you were tape recording him? >> donald trump -- that's right, i remember something very vaguely in my mind hoping he would write honestly what i said. question, and that was not true? you were not tape recording him? donald trump, i was not. i'm not equipped to tape record. so we have been here before. what was your reaction when you saw the first tweet from trump about hey, comey better hope
there are no tapes. >> i thought there were absolutely no tapes. and comey said during his testimony, lordy, he hopes there are tapes, famously. and i hate to disappoint him, but i don't think they exist. trump says this all the time to intimidate people. whether it's people prosecuting him or investigating him or reporting on him. it's sort of typical trump. >> now your reaction tonight, knowing donald trump as you do, your reaction tonight to the possibility that he may order the special prosecutor to be fired. >> oh, i think he would do that in a heart beat if it came to his survival. thing is two lenses for understanding everything donald trump does. self-aggrandizement, or self-preservation. he is firmfully the self-preservation mode here. i don't think he would hesitate for a second to fire mueller. >> the idea that well, he's got to make the political calculation, for you just how at risk does he feel. >> yes.
>> by the special prosecutor. and if he feels seriously at risk he'll fire them shirks not a strategically disciplined intellectually, emotionally disciplined person. he is a carnival barker. and he wants attention, and he wants to make sure that he survives. that's what motives everything he does. >> now kasowitz has absolutely no experience defending a president. he has virtually no experience with criminal law. he has always been in these lawsuits, defending the trump university lawsuit which he lost to the tune of $25 million. >> right. >> what is your reaction to the president having a lawyer with no experience in the arena that he finds himself now? >> well, when he sued me for libel, kasowitz had no experience in libel law either. >> and now he does. >> now he does. and i had great attorneys. i had mary jo white, andrew levine. >> former u.s. attorney mary jo white. >> correct. and former s.e.c. chair. and they were prepared. they were disciplined. they were wise. and they cleaned his clock.
>> and so kasowitz to you is a sign that actually trump could have more problems than he realizes? >> he doesn't understand what he is up against. >> doesn't know what he is doing. that was my impression. tim o'brien, thank you for joining us. and thank you for getting sued. >> you're welcome. >> coming up, president trump's personal lawyer marc kasowitz now wants to have his own office space in the white house, and big surprise, but possibly not to people who have seen him work before, he is now risking disbarment with the legal advice he is giving white house staff.
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just managing your symptoms? ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, remission is possible. here is what "the new york times" reported today about president trump's personal defense lawyer marc kasowitz. quote, in recent day, mr. kasowitz has advised white house aides to discuss the inquiry into russia's interference in last year's election to as little as possible. he told aides gathered in one meeting who asked whether it was time to hire private lawyers
that it was not yet necessary. according to another person with direct knowledge. now that part about telling the white house staff that it's not necessary to hire lawyers could get him in serious trouble you. might recall that it's been some weeks since i first advised everyone in the white house to get their own lawyers. marc kasowitz is a member of the new york bar. the new york bar's rules of conduct say, quote, a lawyer shall not give legal advice to an unrepresented person other than the advice to secure counsel if the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that the interests of such person are or have a reasonable possibility of being in conflict with the interests of the client. everyone working in the white house has the reasonable possibility of being in legal conflict with this president. the president's lawyer never should have said that to those staffers. up next, i'll ask former assistant attorney general walter dellinger how much trouble marc kasowitz can get in for giving that kind of advice
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house staff. as i just reported according to the "new york times," he told aides gathered in one meeting who asked whether it was time to hire private lawyers it was not yet necessary. we're joined by the founder of d.c. report.org a non-profit that covers the trump administration. and walter dahlinger. walter, you have a lawyer, completely inexperienced in any case involving the white house, inexperienced in criminal law being asked by white house staffers do they need lawyers. and of course they do. and here he is telling them no, no, no, you don't need lawyers. that's clearly in violation of the new york bar's rule about his ability to advise people who might be involved in the case that his client is involved in. >> laurance, i -- i'm not going to opine on the new york bar rules but think how generally inappropriate this is. if this is an employment related question, their advice ought to come from the white house counsel. mr. kasowitz's only professional obligation is to donald trump. so he cap be giving advice to
anyone else. note h this is a piece of the standard process of failing to follow the standard legal procedures that keeps getting this white house into more and more trouble. brief examples that link all today's news. they didn't get an opinion from the department of justice about whether his dealings with foreign businesses violated the emolument's clause. he hired a private lawyer for that. that's not appropriate. when the travel ban got a death blow from the ninth circuit today what they focused on was how they didn't follow the proper procedures, they didn't consult with the right departments, didn't have a finding. again and again they don't follow the right procedures and again and again it gets this white house into trouble. >> david, marc kasowitz is
practicing law without a license in washington which the d.c. bar does not like. they have got rules against that. he is not admitted to the bar in d.c. because the major firms in washington refuse to represent the president because they consider him so unreliable as you will know both in paying and in listening to legal advice. once again, as walter says, the one thing that is happening here is that the addition of the president's defense lawyer has not helped anything. as far as i can see from where we are sitting now has only made things worse. >> that's right. in addition to the prospect that he might have problems with the board of professional responsibility in washington which is under the circuit court of appeals there, i think there is another elephant in the room, lawrence. we are talking about an investigation that deals with
counter-intelligence. does marc kasowitz have a security clearance? did the white house get a security clearance for him? what discussions is he having with staff people, and what facts has he been told by the president that deal with matters of national security? >> david, that's one of the things that you get in a washington law firm is that there are people there who have experience with either having had security clearances or have the ability and background to obtain one or what's necessary to get them through representations of clients like this. >> that's right. they are lawyers who are sophisticated in the ways of how government does this. they are not bullies. donald is a bully. his top lawyers bully people and threaten people. it's their style of operating that works in the private sector in some cases in tough throat businesses like new york real estate but that's not going to
work in washington. and that trump doesn't understand this goes to a very fundamental principle. unfortunately, nobody during the campaign simple will he asked donald trump this question, what exactly is the job description of the president of the united states. i assure you donald doesn't have a clue what it says in oral two. >> if you were white house counsel and staff came into your office in circumstances like this or any kind of investigation and said should i get a lawyer, what would you say? >> i think the answer depends on whether they had any rough connection to these issues. if they did, i think the answer undoubtedly should be -- should be yes, that they should. you know, there was mention of creating a war room to deal with the russian investigation within the white house. but there war room the people suggested for it were going to be people who ought not be talking to each other about some of these matters at some point. i don't each understand how that
works. he needs distinguished counsel. and he needs to segregate 24 from the work of the white house and not continue to mix public interests and private interests in a way that doesn't respect the appropriate boundaries. >> well, we go into tonight with the suspense of not knowing whether we will have a special prosecutor tomorrow. walter dellinger thank you for your unique experience and guidance. david k. johnston thank you. always appreciate it. >> thank you. we'll be right back with tonight's last word. [boy] cannonball!
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suitorman, senior editor at "reason" magazine. kasie, let me start with you. we've already seen far right groups like heritage action criticize the plan, club for growth as well, freedom works, rand paul calling it obamacare light. you tweeted this a few hours ago. here it is, "it is still early so caveats apply but events of today suggest gop health care bill is already on life support, if not dead on arrival." how can that be so early, kasie? >> reporter: well look, craig, this bill has run into extraordinary opposition just in the first handful of hours that it has been out in the public, and you're saying you tick through some of the groups that have come out and opposed this, the heritage action went so far as to say this doesn't repeal obamacare. that of course kind of the cardinal sin for a party that has spent the last however many years campaigning specifically on repealing obamacare. so the people who are
to younger people and less generous to older people. there would be a cap so that really high income people wouldn't be able to get access to it at all, but really the question here is what are republicans trying to do with this bill, and i'm not sure they know, except to say we have a bill that has repealed and replaced obamacare, because it's really not clear who the constituency is for this legislation, and the fact that so many major conservative groups have already come out in opposition. heritage action, freedom works, americans for prosperity, this bill was supposed to unite the right which was really fractured about health care, going into this process. and they have united the right in opposition to the bill. >> one of the chief complaints, peter, as you know to obamacare, it was rammed down our throats so fast. no one had time to read it. it was 1200 pages, we couldn't get our heads around it. no cbo scoring, no public hearings, markup on the bill set for tomorrow.
why the rush? >> the secrecy surrounding the writing of this bill is really telling. it just does not inspire confidence that this bill was locked in a room, that senators, republican senators who want to repeal obamacare were not allowed to see the bill last week, and that they have decided to forego the cbo process early on here. they say that the cbo will have a score at some point, perhaps by easter, but that's a ways off here and the cbo score is really what sort of rallies people. the cbo is imperfect and it doesn't always get things right but at the same time what it does is it provides a singular number for coveragestimates, for effects on the budget for cost. singular number that essentially everyone has to either agree to or provide a really good reason why they are not agreeing to and the fact that republicans aren't going to with that, aren't going through that process is really telling. >> kasie, let's pivot here and talk about today's hearing for deputy attorney general romney
rod rosenstein. lot had to do with the performance of attorney general jeff sessions. i want to play this fiery exchange between republican chuck grassley, the chairman of the judiciary committee and al franken of wisconsin. >> as i remember senator franken asking his question of senator sessions, he referred to something that there had just been something come on cnn that obviously, and franken said that senator sessions wouldn't know what it was and he was going to take that into consideration that it would have been all right for you to ask your question, and you probably should have given him a chance to get the information you had and reflect on it, and give an answer in writing. now the way i tend to, and you both of you know that i said this to you when you were in the privacy of my office. if i was going to ask you a gotcha question, i was going to tell you about it ahead of time and i consider what senator franken asked sessions at that late moment that that story just
come out is a gotcha question. >> it was not a gotcha question, sir. >> it was, from the standpoint that he didn't know what you were asking about. >> but i said that as i was asking the question. >> senator, no. >> you haven't heard this and i don't expect you have heard it. >> senator tillis? >> look at the tape mr. chairman, please. >> a testy exchange the likes of which we do not see often in the upper chambe kasie hunt. the big question onrosenstein today was would hupport an independent counsel to investigate the election in the trump/russia ties. what did he say to that? >> reporter: right. that obviously the sessions, the question to sessions that franken asked is what ultimately has resulted in a chain of events that has led to anybody having any idea who mr. rosenstein is at this stage in the game, because sessions of course ended up having to recuse himself from anything related to the trump campaign and democrats have focused on the deputy attorney general slot as the one that will ultimately be making
decisions about prosecutions and other issues around any inquiries into the trump campaign and ties to russia. so at this point, mr. rosenstein did not commit one way or the other to having a special prosecutor. he says he's potentially open to it, that no decisions have been made. so we're going to have to see if that's good enough for some of the democrats who interest threatened to hold up his nomination over this. in the blumenthal of connecticut saying he doesn't want to allow this to go forward without that commitment. it only takes one senator to do that. craig? >> senator blumenthal standing by for us, we'll talk to him in a few moments. matt, as we watch this hearing play out here in real time it's ongoing, we just saw texas senator ted cruz asking some questions. you worked at the doj under eric holder, tell us about this man named rod rosenstein. what's he like? >> he's a straight arrow. he's a prosecutor's prosecutor. i think he's about as good a choice as we can expect for deputy attorney general.
personally i wish he was the attorney general rather than jeff sessions. if rod rosenstein was left to investigate this russia question or appointed a special counsel to iestigate the question he would do a good job. the deputy attorney general regularly sits in the situation room with the president. 'long with others is vying for influence with the president, is asking the president to pass judgment on things, policy things the department of justice is doing on investigations and so it's difficult at the same time you're constantly interacting with the president and members of the white house to be investigating the president's campaign and expect that to be done fairly. this is such a tenuous time in the department of justice's history, after the incident with loretta lynch and the meeting with bill clinton, with jim comey's actions last year in july, and then right before the election, and then of course
sessions' recusal. there are a lot of americans asking whether the department of justice can investigate political matters fairly and independently, and in a situation like this it's so damaging for the department's credibility. i think the only solution is to follow kind of the press decede that happened in the bush administration when ross rosenstein's predecessor appointed a special counsel to investigate the white house, the only situation that would allow americans to believe this was being handled fairly. >> matt thank you. senator richard blumenthal democrat from connecticut sits on the judiciary committee. let me show you, show everyone what you tweeted on sunday, "i'll use every possible tool to block doj deputy ag nominee unless he commits to appoint independent special prosecutor." let me play who rod rosenstein said today when asked that question. >> are you willing to auto point
a special counsel to examine russiainterferences in elections and other criminal activity? >> i'm willing to appoint a special counsel whenever i determine appropriate based on the policies and procedures of the justice department. >> after what you heard today, will you block him? >> i will use every tool available to block him, because he has failed to commit to appoint a special prosecutor, and make no mistake. we know enough right now to see that this nation is careening toward a constitutional crisis. the russians meddled in our electoral process, our democracy, the intelligence agencies are all in a consensus on that point and donald trump seems to have accepted it. there are clear evidence of ties between the trump campaign, the trump transition team, the trump administration and the russians. there are false statements made by now attorney general jeff sessions during his nomination
proceedings, false statements that could lead to a coverup, all of these threats demand an independent objective impartial investigation that is seen by the american public as credible and trustworthy, not just in fact trustworthy and credible, and so i think that he must commit to a special prosecutor, and when i asked him again today about that commitment, he really failed to commit himself. >> senator, for those of us who are watching and listening, who might not be as familiar with parliamentary procedure there in the upper chamber, precisely how will you go about blocking this nomination? >> there are ways that we can ask for delays in votes. there are procedures we can use on the floorthe united states senate, all of the technical details may be obtuse but they are not unlimited, so
the ultimate ability to block the nomination may not be unlimited either, and so i will do everything in my power because i believe so strongly the nation needs an independent special prosecutor. i support the intelligence committee doing its investigation. i support the creation of a select committee, and also a special commission that can produce findings and recommendations in a report that's fully transparent. only a prosecutor can pursue criminal wrongdoing, whether it's false statements or other violations of the law. >> let's talk in a moment here about the house plan to fix health care. i imagine that you've had an opportunity to thumb through it, to a a certain extent. on its face, is this something that is a legislative starting point or is this dead on arrival? >> it seems like less coverage at higher cost, fewer people covered, and higher payments, which seems like a recipe for
disaster in health care. the ones who suffer most are older folks, children, women. it would be devastating to women's health care by defunding planned parenthood and that is an abhorrent sacrifice that i will oppose with every ounce of energy that i have, and the ones who seem to be better off are the insurance companies and the healthy. that also seems to me to make it highly suspect, and so i think with seven of my colleagues here, republicans opposing it right now, it's pretty much a nonstarter. >> let's talk about the travel ban that was announced yesterday. not so much whether you agree with it as a matter of policy. considering the changes that have been made by the administration, do you think that it will at least pass constitutional muster? >> it raises the same constitutional questions as the -- >> senator, hang on one second.
i want to get back into the judiciary hearing to listen to your colleagues for a second. >> cnn just published a story and i'm telling you this about a news story that's just been published, i'm not expecting you to know whether or not it's true, but cnn just published a story alleging that the intelligence community provided documents to the president-elect last week that included information that "russian operatives claimed to have compromising personal and financial information about mr. trump." these documents also allegedly say "there was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between trump's surrogates and intermediaries for the russian government." now again, i'm telling you this as it's coming out, just so you know, but if it's true, it's obviously extremely serious, and if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the trump campaign communicated with the
russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? i think that was a fair question and certainly not a gotcha question, and he didn't answer my question. what he said to that question was, "senators franken, allegations get made about candidates all the time and they've been made about president-elect trump lots of times. most of them virtually --" wait a minute, i am sorry. "i'm not aware of any of these activities. i've been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign, and i did not have communications with the russians and i'm unable to comment on it." so in other words, it can't be a gotcha question if he didn't understand the question. so the thing that got him was
him saying that he had not met with russians, but that wasn't even my question. my question was just if this is and i asked it of mr. rosenstein, which is if it turns out to be the case that members of the mpaign, of the tru campaign have met with russians and you know, includclud kohl cd with them, it was not a gotcha question. that's all i want to say. if you go back and look at the tape i have to say i couldn't have been nicer. i couldn't have been sweeter. really. so that's that. mr. rosenstein, i want to ask you a question. the. 's former national security adviser, michael flynn, resigned his position because he misled senior administration officials
regarding his communications with the russian ambassador, and it's been reported sally yates, who once held the position you are looking to fill and was acting attorney general earlier in the trump administration warned the white house that mr. flynn could be vulnerable to blackmail because of his coverup. mr. rosenstein, knowing what we know now, do you think ms. yates was right to be concerned? >> senator, i hope i've been clear on this point throughout my testimony. i appreciate the opportunity to clarify it. at this point, i believe as a lawyer, and as a justice department official currently and potentially in the future, it's important for me to limit my testimony to matters of which i know both the facts and the law, and where i've consulted with the department of justice professionals who are engaged in handling the matter, so on issues like that one i appreciate senate whitehouse sharing his perspective earlier that you need to know the facts and the relevant information. you can't prejudge matters.
there's currently an acting attorney general dana boente in that position with regard to any investigation that may be occurring. with regard to yr specific question, my answer is, senator, that i do not know the details of what the basis was for that, and i wouldn't reach any opinion about it just based on what i read in the newspaper. >> senator from hawaii? >> thank you, mr. chairman. there are more than 18,000 law enforcement agencies -- >> all right, senator blumenthal you heard that exchange. what say you, got cha question? not a gotcha question? >> not a gotcha question at all. in fact, the point senator franken was making essentially is that then senator sessions offered an answer that wasn't even required by the question. he on his own offered that he never met with the russians, and so he really dug himself this hole, and the question when it was gotcha or whatever, didn't
necessarily require that answer. and i think there is overriding need for an independent special prosecutor precisely because all of these political headwinds are going to hit whoever does this investigation, and it better be someone who is independent and is not investigating his own boss as mr. rosenstein would do, if he were the one doing the investigation. >> senator richard blumenthal of connecticut, senator, thank you for your time this afternoon. >> thank you so much. thank you. trumpcare versus obamacare. how different are they, and what would the new plan mean for you? we'll take a deep dive on that, and roughly 15 minutes or so from now, sean spicer set to take that podium there in the white house briefing room. you see the screens that have become commonplace for reporters to appear via skype. there was also a small table next to the podium.
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say. lot of times say they're lower 25% they can't afford private. >> universal health care. >> i'll take care of everybody. >> we begin by repealing the awful taxes, the mandate penalties and subsidies in obamacare. >> when all is said and done will the republican health care plan cover more americans or less americans than obamacare? >> we really think it will cover more. >> after years of railing against obamacare, we now have the republican's plan. so what might it mean for you? let's bring in ali velshi to break it down for us. what's in the new plan, sir? >> i'll tell you what is in it and out of it. i'll try to make this as simple as possible. there are tax credits now to pay for insurance instead of the mandate. there's been an expansion of health savings accounts and flexible spending accounts. i'll show you about that in a second. there are very big changes come to federal medicaid payments. this is going to affect the poorest americans, and the elimination of planned parenthood funding largely
because of planned parenthood's relationship with abortion. tax credits everybody gets a tax credit whether or not you earn income or you don't, they are going to be based on your age, not your income. so a 20-year-old $2,000 tax credit per year, that can probably get you a good piece of insurance. 60-year-old will get $4,000, nd me a 60-year-old who can buy an insurance policy other than catastrophic care for 4,000 bucks. these tax ritz will be reduced as you go higher up the income scale. individuals making $75,000 or more will start to see them going down, couples making $150,000 or more. health savings accounts and flexible spending accounts are going to get a bit of a boost. this tends to favor people who have that extra money that they can save. tends to not be so good for poor people but they will double the allowed contribution starting in 2018. so an individual will be putting 6,500 bucks in, a family can put 13,100. this is what replaces the mandate, a 30% penalty or
premium on top of your health insurance premium if you let coverage lapse. if you don't buy new coverage because ir'not feeling very flush or don't think you're going to get sick and try to buy it again, 30% more expensive. that's meant to have people stay in insurance and make that pool bigger. what's not in there? the employer mandate and individual mandate. no one is forced to buy insurance for themselves or their employees. government subsidies to pay for insurance we're getting refundable tax credits to everyone and selling insurance across state lines was supposed to be in here donald trump tweeted that's going to come in a later phase. here are the losers as we look at it, the elderly, because they're not getting enough of a tax credit, the poor because of those changes to medicaid, and the sick who always get the short end of the stick. winners right now are the young, because they get this great subsidy and generally healthy, wealthy people who are seeing their taxes go down as it relates to health care, and health insurers who are benefiting from this.
so it's complicated, it's meaty but that's what it looks like. >> one of the big questions continues to be can aealth care system remainsustainable, remain solvent perhaps even if there is no penalty? if there's not a requirement to carry insurance? >> president obama didn't want the penalty or the mandate, mitt romney didn't want the penalty or mandate. this is not philosophical. it's mathematical. it's actuarial. you cannot insure people who are high risk without forcing people who are low risk to be in that insurance. anyone who lives in coastal america and has to buy a wind or a flood policy knows how this works. think about this as a wind or flood policy. this is very hard to sustain it without forcing people to be in it. >> ali velshi our numbers guy, always good to have you. >> my pleasure. republicans divided. now that we know the details of their plan to replace obamacare will gop leaders get the party united behind it? and can they sell it to the american people? we are still waiting for sean
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additional wave of threats to jewish community centers and anti-defamation league offices. according to some reports over 100 bombing threats phoned in to jewish institutions since the start of this year alone lp. as the president said at the beginning "we're a country that stands you nighted in condemning hate and ooefl in all its forms. we denounce this. it is saddening i have to continue to share these disturbing reports with you and i share the president's thoughts he hopes we don't have to continue to share these reports with you but as long as they do condemn the and look at ways we can stop them. on to the news of the day you saw president trump continue to deliver on two of his most significant campaign promises, protecting the country against radical islamic terrorism and repealing and replacing obamacare with a patient-centric
alternative. we talked about the executive order protecting the nation from foreign terrorist entry into the you state yesterday and on to, i introduce tom price to talk about the plan to repeal and replace obamacare. dr. price. >> good afternoon. first let me just share what an honor it is to share with the secretary of human and health services. i'm the third of 23 who had the privilege of serving and the mission at our department is to improve the health and safety and well-being of the american people and we take that mission very, very seriously. for many americans right now, their ability to gain health care or health coverage is a real challenge. for most americans they receive their health coverage through their employer, it's about 175 million folks, those individuals will see no significant change
other than there won't be a penalty for not purchasing coverage. for the folks in the medicare system there will be no changes at all in the current law. but we're talking about those people in the individual and small group market, the moms and pops, the folks who run the corner grocery store, the corner cleaners, those individuals out there are having huge challenges gaining care and gaining coverage, and medicaid is a program that by and large has decreased the ability for folks to gain access to care and we want to make certain we address that. this is about patience. this is n aboutmoney. this is not about something this is about patience, and sadly, the costs are going up for those folks and the individual in small group market, the access is going down and only getting worse. you know the stories. premiums increased 25% over the last year on average. arizona had an increase of 116%. deductibles are going up for many, many folks, if you're a mom or a dad out there, and you
make $40,000, 50,000, 60,000 your deductible oftentimes is 8,000, 10,000, 12,000 a year. what that means is that you've got an insurance card but you don't get care, because you can't afford the deductible, and we know this is happening by talking to the folks out there trying to provide the care. third of the counties in the united states, one-third of the counties in the united states have only one insurer offering coverage on the exchange. five states only have one insurer offering coverage on the exchange. one insurer is not a choice. so we need to make certain we correct that. in tennessee this morning, it was announced that there are a number of counties that have no insurer offering coverage on the exchange. insurers are leaving the market on the exchange. last year there were 232 insurers that were providing coverage, offering coverage on the exchange. now there are 167. that's a loss of about 30% in one year alone. and all of this means that patients are not getting the care that they need.
now the principles we have as our guiding star are affordability. we want a system that's affordable for everybody, accessibility, a system of the highest quality, a system that incentivizes innovation in a health care system and a system that empowers patients through transparency and accountability. the president spoke last tuesday to a joint session of congress and laid out h principles. first wanted to make certain those with preexisting illness and injury were not priced out of the market. nobody ought to lose their coverage because they get a bad diagnosis. in terms of affordability, health savings accounts growing choices for patients is incredibly important. tax credits that allow individuals to be able to purchase the kind of coverage that they want, not that the government forces them to buy, we've always talked about in terms of what kinds of reforms need to be put in place that they need to equalize the tax treatment for the purchase of coverage. those again in the employer sponsored market they get a tax
benefit for buying health coverage. those folks that are out there in the individual small group market know tax benefit and that's what this plan would do. state flexibility it's incredibly important that we allow the states to be the ones that are defining what health coverage, have the flexibility in the medicaid program to be able to respond to their vulnerable population. lawsuit abuse, the president mentioned and it's incredibly important the practice of defensive medicine wastes billions of dollars every single year and we need to address that as well. president talked about a glide path and appropriate transition to this new phase for health care for our country, and that's important as well. so that nobody falls through the cracks. buying insurance across state lines. the. the talked about this on the campaign over and over. american people understand the common sense nature of purchasing across state lines, and it increases competition and we need to make certain that that happens and then addressing the incredible increase in drug
prices. there are three phases of this plan. one is the bill that was introduced last evening in the house of representatives, that's the start of all of this. second are all the regulatory modifications and changes that can be put into place, as you all well know the previous administration used regulations to fairly well. there were 192 specific rules that were put out as they relate to obamacare. over 5,000 letters of guidance and the like, and we are going to go through every single one of those and make certain that if they help patients, then we need to continue them. if they harm patients or increase costs, then obviously they need to be addressed. and then there's other legislation that will need to be addressed that can't be done through the reconciliation process. so the goal of all of this is patient-centered health care for patient and families and doctors making medical decisions and not the federal government. we commend the house for the introduction of the bill yesterday and we look forward to working with all individuals in this process and look forward to a few questions.
>> you're familiar with the conservative groups like the club for growth and heritage action have with rank and file members. what does it say about this legislation that these groups are already out with opposition to it? >> well, i think that this is the beginning of the process, and we look forward to working with them and others to make certain that again we come up with that process that aligns with the principles that we've defined, that they actually adhere to or agree with as well and that is that we need a system that's affordable for folks, a system that's accessible for individuals, that's of the highest quality, that incentivizes innovation, and that empowers patients and so we look forward to working with them through this process. >> reporter: secretary, americans had to foregoe a new iphone to pay for health care and have to make these choices. does the administration agree with that? will americans under this plan, will they need to make sacrifice other goods to pay for their health care? >> this is an important
question. what's happening right now is that the american people are having to sacrifice in order to purchase coverage, and as i mentioned many individuals can't afford the kind of coverage that they have right now. so they'veot that insurance card, but they don't have care. what our desire is to drive down the health care costs for everybody and the way that you do that is to increase choices for folks, increase competition, return the regulation of health care, where it ought to be, which is at the state level, not at the federal level. all of these things that take it in their aggregate will decrease the cost of health care, and health coverage and that will allow folks to be able to purchase the coverage that they want. yes, sir? >> reporter: thank you, dr. price. two questions for you. first has to do with guarantees that you can make as the administration's point person on this legislation. can you guarantee that whatever legislation emerges it makes it to the president's desk will allow individuals if they like their doctor they can keep their doctor and the second guarantee is can you also guarantee that health care premiums for
individuals will come down with this new legislation? >> again, a remarkably important question, because as you'll recall the promise from if the last administration was if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. if you like your plan, you can keep your plan. both of those promises turned out to be not true. we think it's incredibly important for the american people to be able to select the physician and the place where they're treated in themselves, that the government ought not be involved in that process, and so our goal is to absolutely make certain that individuals have the opportunity to select their physician. in terms of premiums, we believe strongly that through this whole process and as it takes effect, that we'll see a decrease in not only the premiums individuals will see but decrease in the cost of health care for folks. remember there was another promise that the previous administration made that you'd see a decrease in $2500 on average for families across this land. in fact they've seen an increase of $2500 or $3,000. we're going to go in the other
direction, in a direction that empowers patients and holds down costs. >> mr. secretary, you are quite a distance away from conservatives with this plan and the central part of it, which is tax credits. they see as yet another entitlement, very similar to the entitlement of obamacare but different in form. how do you convince them, since it's going to take tax credits to make this work, that they need to swallow this and move forward with the bill? an awful lot of opposition in the central tenet of this whole thing. >> this is all about patience, and in order to provide that transition and in order to make it so that nobody falls through the cracks we've got to have a system that allows for individuals to gain the kind of coverage that they want. and we conservatives and others have said for a long time that we believe it's important to equalize the tax treatment for those purchasing coverage, gaining coverage through their employer and those not, and the tax credit is the opportunity to be able to equalize that tax
treatment. folks who talked about this for many years actually, so there's not a distortion in the tax code for who is able to gain a benefit from being able to purchase coverage and not. yes, ma'am? >> mr. secretary, you were talking about making sure people don't fall through the cracks. last administration obamacare focused in on making sure the underserved were part of the equation. what is the safety net or the safe harbors you have to make sure to ensure people don't fall through the cracks beyond the tax incentives but also for the underserved, who are now part of many are part of the program that weren't before prior to. >> this is extremely important as well, and the current system as you likely know for those vulnerable in our population pecially in theedicaid population is a system that's broken. you've got a third of the physicians in this country, one-third of the doctors in this country that would be eligible to see medicaid patients, who aren't seeing medicaid patients
right now. not because they've forgotten how to take care of patients. it's because of the rules in place that make it too difficult for them to see medicaid patients. we believe it's important to allow states to fashion the program for their vulnerable population that actually responds to that population in a way that gives them the authority, them the choices, them the opportunity to gain coverage and the care that they believe most appropriate. >> what did you find out that that is not happening when you goive to the sat? is there some type of punishment or some type of piece that you're going to put in place to make sure that that happens, that they follow through on your intent? >> absolutely. there's accountability throughout the plan that we have, that would allow for the secretary and the department to be certain that the individuals that we believe need to be cared for are being cared for in the state at the appropriate level. but we believe this is a partnership. this is about patience and partnership. the previous administration tended to make it about government. we believe it's about patience and partnership and we want to partner with every single person
in this land who wants to make certain we allow the kind of choices and quality to exist. yes, ma'am? >> the president tweeted earlier today he described this bill as our wonderful new health care bill. there's been a little bit of confusion. does this wonderful new health care bill. there has been confusion. does this represent the administration's bill? and is there anything this bill that the administration cannot support. >> this has been a work in progress. as you know, this has been going on for over a year. the work that i had the privilege of participating in when i served in the house of representatives in the last congress was open and transparent. and we invited folks in to give their ideas. and tens if not hundreds of people had input into that process. this grew out of tt, and over the past number of weeks we have been having conversations with folks on the hill, in the house, and in the senate and other stakeholders. this is a work product that is a result of that, all of that process. the president and the administration support this step
in the right -- in what we believe is in the right direction, a step that reveals obamacare and gets us moving in the direction of those principles that i outlined. >> do you support everything that's in the bill sitting on the table, sir? >> this is a work in progress. we will work with the house and the senate in this process. as you know it is a legislative process that occurs. i'm glad you pointed out the bills on the table there. as you will see this bill right here was the bill that was introduced in 2009 and 10 by the previous administration. notice how thick that is. some of you recall i actually turned the pages and went through that piece of legislation in a you tube. the bill -- the pile on the right is the current bill. what it means is we are making certain that the process, that the decisions that are going to be made are not going to be made by the federal government. they are going to be made by patients and families and doctors. >> given the opposition that has been brought up today, does this plan already need to be salvaged
in your view? how do you do it? >> e no. you know what happens with these things. you start -- you start at a starting point. people engage, and they get involved in the process, sometimes to a greater degree. nothing focuses the mind like a bill that's currently on the table and is a work in progress -- or in process. and we'll work through it. >> this is the starting point here? >> this is an important process to be had. the american people have said to their elected leaders, the obamacare process for them gaing coverage andare is not working. that's what they have said. so we believe it's important to respond to the american people and provide a health care system that allows for them to purchase the kind of coverage and care that they desire. >> you said in your letter to the house chairman that necessary and appropriate and technical changes might need to be made for this bill to reach the president's desk.
what specific changes is the white house and the administration looking for in this bill? >> as i mentioned their three phases to this process. one is this bill, this legislation that's working through under the rules of reconciliation, which is a fancy term to mean that there are only certain things that you can do from a budgetary standpoint, has to affect either spending or revenue. there are things that you can't do in this bill. and those we plan on doing across the horizon in phase two, which is the regulatory portion and then in phase three, which is another piece of legislation that would be going through the house and the senate with a majority -- super majority in the senate. that process will incorporate all of the kinds of things that we believe are absolutely in to reconstitute that individual and small group market and to get us in a position again where patients and families and doctors are making these decisions. >> cvs score isn't out yet, can you guarantee that this plan will not have a marginally negative impact on the deficit
or result in millions of americans losing insurance? >> what i can say the goal and the desire i know of the individuals on the hill is to make sure that this does not increase the cost to the government. >> two elements of the bill, i have questions about how they control costs and how they help with access. the medicaid per capita block grant to the states, how is that sort of fundally different from the obamacare regime on medicaid in terms of expanding access. the second point, why doesn't thisill do away with the cost sharing community ratings version that obamacare has. >> to the per capita cap, the medicaid is a system that doesn't work for patients. you have got folks out there who need care, who need to see particular physician who is aren't able to see them. all americans should be saddened by the situation that we have when there are patients out there that can't get the care that they need. we believe one of the keys to
providing appropriate care in the medicaid population is allowing the states to have the flexibility to address that medicaid population. remember, medicaid population is four different demographic groups. it's those who are disabled. it's those who are srd. it's healthy moms and kids by and large. those are the four main demographic groups. and we the federal government force states mostly to take care of those individuals in exactly the same way. if you describe that to the folks back home on main street they say that doesn't make sense at all. you need a program that's different for the healthy moms and kids to respond to their needs to that's different from the folks who are disabled and seniors. what we believe is appropriate is to say to the states you know your population best, know best how to care for your vulnerable population. we are going to watch you and make certain that you do so, but know how you do that. that will decrease costs markedly in the medicaid program. we are wasting significant amounts of money.
not that folks are getting too much care. we're wasting out because it's significant abuse in the system and it's insignificant. cost sharing measures are being addressed. it's important we run through that process. thises the process wheree felt the previous administration was spending money they didn'have the authority to spend. and congress is working through that to make certain that the rightful holders of the authority to spend money in this nation, which is the congress of the united states, exercises that authority. >> mr. secretary -- >> how does the white house and you feel about the label, trump care? >> i'll let others provide a description for it. i prefer the call it patient care. this is about patients at the end of the day. this isn't about politicians. this isn't about insurance companies. this is about patients. and patients in this nation, especially those in the individual and small group market. these are the folks. i had the privilege of going to cincinnati last week with the vice president to a small business round table. and one of the business owners, one of the small business owners there said he had 18 employees
last year at this time. this year he has 15 employees because of the cost of health coverage for those individuals forced him, forced him to let three people go. now, they are being forced to let three people go because the federal government has put in place rules and regulations that make it virtually impossible for folks in the individual and small group market to provide coverage for their employees. this is a system that's not working for people. so if you -- if we focus on the patients -- i'll call it patient care. if you focus on the patients, we'll get to the right answer. >> a major complaint of concern -- sorry. a major complaint of conservatives with phase one of the obamacare repeal and replace is that it is missing a measure that would allow health care to be sold across state lines. now, the president said this morning that that would be in either phase two or phase three. is that something that you believe the president could do through executive action or you
yourself to do or is that something that needs to be addressed legislatively. >> there are different aspects across state lines that will allow patients the care they want. some of it might be done from a regulatory or rules standpoint. some of it might require legislation. that's where we are going to need assistance from our friends on the other side of the aisle. american people have demanded that they be able to to purchase across state lines. whether it's through association health plans who allows individuals in small business groups to pool together nationally to be able to purchase coverage or whether it's mom and dad who don't gain coverage through their employer that allows folks to pool together solely for the purpose of purchasing coverage even though they are not economically align. there are 18 million folks in
that individual and small business government. that would give them the purchasing power of millions. that's huge four and authority that we want to put into the hands of people, of patients. some of that may in fact require legislation. yes, sir. >> mr. secretary, thank you. two questions. first, congressman john faso of new york has said that the issue of denying federal funds to planned parenthood should be separate from whatever health care bill finally emerges from congress and is signed into law by the president. is that the administration's position as well? and my second question is this, you mentioned earlier the people who had their health care plans canceled when they thought they could keep it. i believe in your state of georgia more unanimous a million people had that experience. will some of the plans that were canceled be able to come back under the new health care plan? >> yeah, in terms of planned parenthood, we think it's important that t legislature
you can take a look. i will be on "the daily show" with trevor noah, if all my travel goes okay including the many flights i've been taking just about every single day. i'm looki ing forward to being back on trevor's show. if you're in the area, it would be great if you could come by. i might see some of you in a little bit in seattle. that is all for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" does not start right now apparently. so -- she is there. there you are. >> i am here, sorry. it was actually me and a member of our ground crew both here about to start the show together. >> perfect. go to it, then. >> thank you very much. thanks to everybody who works here who has such patient with me arriving at the set usually four seconds before this camera turns on, tonight, arriving four seconds after the camera turned on. very sorry about that.
as you might imagine, as you might be able to tell from my composure right now we have a big show tonight. we have here tonight live the former secretary general of nato. very much looking forward to that interview and discussion. we have congressman adam schiff tonight the top democrat on the house intelligence committee. we will be talking to him tonight as it is intersecticrea becoming the wisdom in the house intelligence committee into trump in russia is over, not that it's over because it's complete but it's over because it has blown up. in facty the whole house intelligence committee seems to have ceased to function entirely even beyond doing that investigation. they're apparently no longer meeting as a committee to do business other than the trump-russia investigation. they apparently stopped all together. it appears like the investigation itself is done.
that probe from going forward. it seems clear honestly the administration would have nothing to fear from the chairman of that committee who after all was part of the trump campaign and trump transition official himself. i don't think they're worried about devin nunes. that means if the white house has played a role in shutting down or trying 0 shut down the house intelligence committee investigation of this matter, then the reason they were so afraid of it, the man they were so afraid of in that investigation wasn't devin nunes, it was the other senior person running that investigation, who didn't work for them, who was not part of the trump campaign. that would be the top democrat on that committee, adam schiff, if the white house really did shut this thing down, if the common beltway wisdom is correct and the house investigation committee into russia is over and shut down if the white house had any role in achieving that outcome, it's because they were afraid what adam schiff was
going to do. adam schiff is here tonight live. it's a big show tonight. meanwhile, today was the start of the biggest rupture in europe, since the end of world war ii. the british people voted narrowly last summer to leave the european union. today, britain's represent tich at the eu presented the formal paperwork that starts the process of the uk getting out of europe, getting out of the european union. the president of the european union ended with a statement that included these four words, we already miss you. it will take britain four years to fully extract itself from europe financially and legally. it's an unprecedented process. nobody knows how it will end up in the details. we know the bottom line result. it will result in a smaller europe and a question whether
that puts more pressure than ever before of this centrifical process of scotland breaking away becoming its own kingdom. then northern ireland. as you know, it's divided in two. most is the independent nation of ireland happily staying part of the european union. and the six counties that make up northern ireland those six counties are part of the uk and like scottish voters wanted to stay in the eu, voters in northern ireland wanted to stay in the eu, too, but outvoted. if northern ireland stays part of the uk they will be forced out of europe against their will and out of the eu against their will. the border between ireland and the six counties in the north will require that border to be fortified or built up to whatever extent is required by a border between the european
union and non-european union country. i'm sure the building up of that border will be great in northern ireland. i'm sure that won't be controversial at all. >> what britain did today in y prying themselves off europe and splitting up the european union that is adding a whole new impetus, dynamic to the age-old bloody question whether northern ireland should stay part of the uk or six counties in the north should be part of the united front. troubles anyone? >>he two national institutions that was part of that so we wouldn't have another world war ii that followed world war i, the two multi-national institutions that were created and staved in fighting off world war iii thus far the two
organizations that have done the work in stopping world war iii are nato and the european union. all things considered, forever you factor in military power and economic power and international influence, i think it's fair to say the uk is the strongest and most important cornerstone member of the european union. now, as of today they are starting the process of getting out. it's happening. that alone is profoundly d disstabilizing in lots of way to the uk itself probably our greatest ally on earth. we are also about to have two hugely important elections in other cornerstones of europe. both germany and france are heading towards very very important national elections that will not just determine the immediate short term future of politics in those countries, determine whether or not europe splits apart entirely. the strongest antieuropean
candidate in france is mauer ren lapin, the head of a party called the national front founded by her father in the early 1970s. for decades the front national ale has been the fascist party in france. he denies the holocaust, made a career accusing his political opponents eing secret jews. and about muslims being allowed to immigrant to france a position his daughter shares as she campaigns to be president of france now. part of her campaigning to be president of france last week resulted in her taking a detour to the kremlin. a weird day. nobody quite knew where mauer ren lepin had gone for the day and suddenly turned up without warning for this meeting with vladamir putin, one-on-one. the russian government is
essentially openly supporting the far right candidacy of her as she runs for president in france. russian banks have made loans of millions of euros during this campaign. today at their press conference on the senate intelligence committee investigation in the trump-russia. and senator burr said there was no doubt russia after interfe interfering in our election was interfering in russia and france. >> and this fascist candidate in france, it is possible the reason russia likes her so much cause of her domestic politics and so right wing and forgivee ra racist. vladamir putin, i don't know how he thinks. he might see that as a feature
not a bug. in st. petersburg, russia will be hosting something called the rush shall international conservative forum and want to promote the establishment of a common constant acting russian european conservative elite group uniting the political and economic call elites in europe. one of these russian conservative forums russia has hosted in 2015 sponsored by a branch of his political party and in st. petersburg. that one attracted american far right racist fringe right characters like jared taylor a prolific su do economic white supremacist. you might remember him from the alt-right gathering in washington, d.c. where everybody did the nazi salute and shouted heil trump. you know, they said it was hail
trump. but with the stuff arm it was hard to read their lips and get that sitle subtleties. regardless whether they like the racist part, whether or not he likes that faction, russia likes mauer ren le pen, and one thing they like is if she gets france she will do her damndest to pry france outside as well. russia supports anything pulling apart institutions of the west. russia's overall global strategy is to knock the united states down as many pegs as it can in terms of our global standing. they want to disrupt and divide and hopefully split apart russian alliances institutions that serve as a counterweight in the world and serve as definine
ing any sort of democratic liberal values western order. all stinstitutions that support that russia sees them as the enemy. they will do anything to undermine them as best they can and when they have the momentum and advantage they will take it. that russian idea by defeating your adversaries by splitting them up, promoting divisions among them and within them, it seems almost ridiculous to think about it. that strategy extends to us in america in a very specific way. you may have heard about the newly energized current federation of thealifornia paratist movement? there have been low-key low profile california in sur reksus insurrectionsist movements for year, conservative parts of california that say california should split up and the liberal
and urban and minority heavy part of the state should be its own thing and the conservative rural white part of california should become a southern idaho thing or something. that kind of thing has existed a long time. what's new in california is the surprisingly slick online organized progressive seaming effort that california as a whole should secede from the united states of america. i'm from california, my whole family lives in california. i know lots of people in california who have talked to me half joking or not about how appealing this calexit idea is since donald trump was elected president. the leader of the organization that spearheaded that movement, the leader of yes california, he really does live in russia. he lives in siberia. last september, the yes california guy who conveniently lives in russia, the calexit guy
and right ring separatists got invited to moscow for a kremlin funded event called the globalization of russia. look it up. you will signed links to the independent republic of california, with a link. and the calexited founder that the separatists office space is being loaned to him in moscow free of charge. he said he doesn't actually know who owns the office space, privately owned who can tell but nice to have free office space for his california separatist movement he's running from russia. that is a ridiculous story, right? it is a ridiculous idea, cart n
cartoonish. but it's real. imagine if your goal was to take the united states down a few g pegs in the esteem of the world in terms of global leadership and the way they looked up to the united states for help or advisor conceivably as exemsplar of democracy and power, imagine if your goal was to hurt all of that, erode all of that, if you had a chance, even a slim chance hilarious cartoonish tiny chance of splitting off from the united states, one of its 50 states on its own terms is the sixth largest economy in the world. you pry california off the united states, california has a bigger economy than france does. it would be nice to pry germany out of the eu. pry france out of the eu. the eu is splitting apart on its
own. we'll do what we can to help but let's think big. t theresa may is the british prime minister tasked with managing britain pulling out of the european union she is not the politics credited with the leaving. that goes to nigel, who spearheaded the brexit campaign and he has become famous for his frequent appearances alongside donald trump and trump tower at the white house. o oddly, the day wikileaks held its press conference to crow about the fact they were rele e releasing a devastating document dump experts say essentially exposed the entire cyber arsenal of the cia, on that same day, nigel farraj was at the embassy of ecuador where wikileaks founder jul yan assange lives and gave his press conference that day. a buzzfeed director said he saw
him and asked him what he had been doing? he said he couldn't remember what he had been doing inside that building. recently this past week nigel f farage has been in california to promote the effort to california splitting from the united states or at least splitting itself in two. today, the republican and democratic senior members of that senate intelligence committee announced they have 20 people on their list they want to talk to for their investigation of trump and russia. they hinted former security advisor michael flynn and sally yates are among those 20 people. they confirmed his son-in-law will be one of the people they speak to. and on the house side the house investigation may or may not be blowing up. we'll hear more on that from congressman schiff. the senate is going ahead,
tomorrow, not something you want to miss if you're interested in this issue. one point about that, the last point i want to make. confirming in no uncertain terms, there is one thing the committee will not be looking at, the question of whether or not the russian attack is over, whether russia is still doing their thing, whether they are in fact collecting their payment from the trump administration now in exchange in their part throwing the election trump's way, that the committee is not going be looking at. >> it changes the republican platform convention or the way the president refuses to criticize vladamir putin. >> that's not in the scope of the investigation. i'll leave that up to you guys to report. yes, ma'am. >> yes, ma'am, next question.
senate intelligence committee will not be looking whether or not this russian attack, russian campaign is over. in terms of what that committee is going to investigate, we all fully expect what the russian attack on our election was. i think our country doesn't necessarily expect but at least hopes that it will look whether russia had help pulling off that attack on our election, whether the trump campaign or any other american confederates helped them in their attack. we hope they will look at that, too, they say they will. they made explicitly clear today they will not look and not even consider questions whether russia's attack on the united states is still under way. whether anybody who might have help them in that attack last year might still be helping them today to get what they want. >> as richard burr said today, he hopes the press will follow that question. that part is all on us now.
congressman adam schiff is here tonight, the former secretary of nato is here tonight. stay with us. [ di nour roar ] onboard cameras and radar detect danger all around you. driver assist systems pull you back into your lane if drifting. bye chief. bye bobby. and will even help you brake, if necessary. it makes driving less of a production. lease the gle350 for $579 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. doctors recommend taking claritin every day distracting you? of your allergy season for continuous relief. claritin provides powerful, non-drowsy, 24-hour relief. for fewer interruptions from the amazing things you do every day. live claritin clear. every day. you get to do the dishes.ed... bring 'em on. dawn ultra has 3 times more grease-cleaning power.
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call today. comcast business. built for business. we have an exclusive tonight, polling data from public policy polling out with a new national poll tonight that's a teeny tiny bit explosive. they will publish this tomorrow but have given us an exclusive first look tonight. you haven't seen this anywhere else. i will give you the top line polling result that i think will make the biggest headline. a two-part question. here's the first part.
this is a national poll, a first look at these new results. here's the question, quote do you think that members of donald trump's campaign team worked in association with russia to help trump win the election? turns out a plurality of voters s says, narrowly, yes, i believe donald trump's campaign worked with russia to help him get elect. 44% of the country believes that. 42% does not. that's good to know. the follow-up. if it turcns out -- if an investigation does turn up conclusive evidence the trump campaign colluded with russia to manipulate our election, do voters have a clear idea of what should then happen next. turns out they do. this is the second part of that question. ppp asks, quote, if evidence comes out that proves conclus e conclusively members of donald trump's campaign team worked in association with russia to help trumwin the election, should
trump continue toerve as president or should he resign? answer, resign. the majority of the country, 53% says if he or anybody in his campaign worked to swing the election in his favor, donald trump should resign as president. so, at least for a majority of the country that would be a presidency ending development. as far as the investigations looking into this mess, there is quite a considerable national appetite for those investigat n investigations to keep going, keep digging. cnbc news is also out with a new poll today, not exclusive as they have published this already. cn cbc asked voters whether the fbi should be investigating the president's ties to russia. respondents did the equivalent of screaming a collective yes into the telephone. two-thirds of the country,
almost two-thirds, 63% thinks it is necessary and should keep going. while these investigations chug along at the fbi and in congress more-or-less, voters quite clearly have questions that they want answered, they want results and it sounds like they want dramatic results if these investigations turn up a worst case scenario answer. congressman adam schiff is the ranking democrat in charge of the investigation in the house. he says from his position at that committee, he has seen evidence he would describe as more than circumstantial, that the trump campaign did collude with russia in their attack on our election last year and congressman schiff will join us in a few minutes to help us answer those questions or which ones will continue to be asked. stay with us. ho! ( ♪ ) it's off to work we go! woman: on the gulf coast, new exxonmobil projects are expected to create over 45,000 jobs. and each job created by the energy industry
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power. that's a bad thing for anybody in high government office. just today a long time state department employee was arrested and charged with having undisclosed and allegedly corrupt contacts with the chinese government. that person got arrested today at the state department. it's a really bad thing to have those kinds of undisclosed contacts with a foreign government if you're in the government. it's a national security disaster for somebody who has access to all the most sensitive national security and intelligence information in the government because they're serving as the national security advisor. sally yates was expected to testify about that yesterday, what she brought to the white house, what she told them about the national security advisor and his contacts with russia. that was supposed to happen yesterday. the republican chairman cancelled the hearing and hasn't rescheduled it. the senate intelligence
committee said they have a list of people they want to talk to for their trump investigation. one of the people they're trying to speak with is christopher steel, a former british miis officer, the author of the partially unkribted dossier of alleged dirt on donald trump that was such a salacious scandal when it was first published in january but now reportedly partially born out by subsequent investigations. the senators have not confirmed they are trying to get christopher steel to testify before their committee but the fact they want to have put a central allegation on the dossier. that not only did russia attack the u.s. election last year, we now know they did, that russia did that with the knowledge of the trump campaign and the trump campaign promised in return they
might do a few things russia might like, down play russia and ukraine as antipolitical issue in this country and agree to stoke divisions in nato, which russia sees as its greatest adversary rin the world. down play russia in ukraine and plan up things they like to yell at each other about. whether or not all nato count countries are paying their fair share for the coast of that alliance. to be fair, lots of u.s. presidents have hit that issue with our nato allies from time-to-time. that said, none of them before now went as far as presenting the german chancellor with a bill, a 3$372 billion invoice, when she visited the white house. but there were european reports last week that's exactly what our new president did when angela merkel paid her visit to d.c. european reports last week say trump gave her a bill for 3$372
billion for unpaid nato spen spending. the white house is denying it did any such thing to angela merkel. the reports raise the questions, right? how much is nato in the crosshairs right now? how much is nato potentially at risk and why? ining us for the interview tonight, the fmer secretary general of nato, former prime minister of denmark and the author most recently of the will to lead america's indispensable role in the global fight for freedom. mr. secretary general, i'm ho r honored you took the time to be with us tonight. thank you for your time. >> you're welcome. thank you. >> from your five years leading nato, what did you come to understand about russia's posture toward nato? what's their strategy when it comes to nato? >> their strategy is exactly what you have described. it is to split the western alliance and it is to insure
that people have mistrust in democracy. when i am witnessing the debate that esspewed across the atlantic, when i am following the debate here in the states, i think mr. putin has more-or-less achieved his goal. >> how vulnerable is nato, that alliance to the kind of splits you're talking about. obviously, there are always disagreements and points of contention to the closest of allies. the kinds of divisions and splits and sore subjects he apparently wants to push, how vulnerable is the alliance? >> he cannot split the nato alliance. of course, it was a matter of concern when candidate trump raised doubts about the american commitment to defending all allies. after he was elected, he has appointed a security team which
has reassured allies that the american commitment is unchanged, that's good. and furthermore, he has also provo provoked, i would say a valuable discussion about the european investment both economically and politically in the transatlantic pond. they understand europe that they cannot take the transatlantic pond for granted so now we have to reconsider how can the european country do more. >> i hear your analysis there but i feel there's an uncomfortable tension in part of it in that you seem to be saying you are reassured by people other than the president in the u.s. government, even if you are still worried about the president himself, in terms of his approach to nato. is that essentially what you mean, that you fistill have concerns about him but not about his team? >> there will be a nato summit
on the 25th of may. i would expect a clear signal from that summit where president trump will participate, that the american commitment to the alliance is unchanged but also that the european allies will contribute much more. when we listened to vice president pence, secretary of defense mattis and secretary of state tillerson, they have reassured the european allies about an unchanged american commitment. >> as britain breaks off from the eu in a process that starts today, a lot of people are foretelling the break up of europe in a bigger way, people are looking forward to elections happening in other cornerstone eu countries. do you feel like those fea are overblown? the centrifical force we see
operating on alliances like the eu if not nato itself, those things are as strong as we are worried about? >> i have no doubts president putin opened a bottle of champagne after he learned about the brexit vote because it's in his interests to weaken the west on alliance. however, now, we have to listen to the will of the british people and get the best out of the divorce negotiations. i have no doubt the uk will now feel even more committed to nato an contribute even more to european security. >> anders fogh rasmussen. former danish prime minister, former nato secretary general, thank you. >> thank you. >> we have another big interview tonight. congressman adam schiff joins us, lots ahead.
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days, and i'm sure because he's a nice guy but no explanation for his middle of the night excursion to the white house last week to view secret documents from a secret source he then called a press conference to talk about the next day and ran back into the white house because he said he needed urgently to brief the white house what he had just learned at the white house the night before. until that makes sense, expect more scenes like this of him being chased downapitol hill hallways by inquiring reporters. here's a very simple part of it. the question of who let him in? who went bzz so he could open the gate? who cleared devin nunes to enter the white house grounds last tut night? that -- last tuesday night. that is an answerering question the white house should be able to answer. monday this week, two days ago, the courthouse promiswhite hous would work on getting that information. they have not provided the
information and reporters are starting to get ancy about it. >> do you have any information to live up to the commitment you made on monday to provide more detail how that happened in a process you just told us yet again is above board and totally appropriate? >> i don't have anything on that for you at this time. >> have you looked into it? >> i have asked preliminary questions and have not gotten answers yet. no, i don't have anything further on that. >> sean spicer not saying who let the intelligence chairman onto the white house grounds that night. that information is probably easy to find. you can't check white house visitor logs online the one ofs we got used to being posted by the obama administration and those have been offline since president trump took office. but the white house does presumably keep a log. they know internally. michael isikoff says sta staffers are speculating
documents may have been handed to devin nunes by a lawyer named michael ellis that previously worked for nunes on the committee and hired this month to work. and until we get the simple answer to a question like that the house intelligence committee investigation will remain basically on ice. still no date for this week's hearing supposed to feature testimony from acting attorney general sally yates and probably be no hearings at all until at least after the easter break. time to start getting ready for easter now, you guys. as of today, all nine members of the democratic committee have called on him tory 'cuse himself from the investigation. it is temperamenting it is dead and everybody should pivot away from it and instead arrerest th hopes on the senate investigation. one person i'm sure who doesn't believe that, congressman
schiff. thank you for joining us. appreciate you being here. >> good to be here. >> what can you do updating us on the status of your committee, the question everybody has on their mind whether or not this investigation is still live in the house of representatives? >> here's the situation and you certainly introduced interest the right way, we can't have a credible investigation if one of the members let alone the chairman is freelancing and can't have an investigation where the chair goes to look at evidence and basically says, i alone can see this evidence and i will only share it with the president. not as if this is just keeping democrats out of the loop, that would be one thing but none of the committee members have seen this, none of us, democrats or republicans know exactly who he met with or what he saw, we only have his representation. you just can't conduct an investigation that way. we certainly want to get back to the business of serious investigation. we have never stopped our work,
not through this, but we're not going to stop our work. i do think it's important, as i said all along, this credibility being conducted in a nonpartisan way. now, i think we have this cloud over the investigation in the sense many people have raised questions is the chair truly impartial? is there some distance between the chair and the white house? until those questions are cleared up i don't know how much credibility our investigation is going to have. >> from a pure numbers perspective, senators burr and warner today said they have about 20 witnesses scheduled for their investigation. they have seven professional sta staffers working on this. can you tell us anything in terms of the house side metrics like that for your committee? >> sure. we have probably a roughly equivalent number of staff cleared to work on this investigation, so the resources, although very small, frankly, on
both sides of the capitol, are about the same being devoted to the investigation. our witness list is probably about the same size as that in the senate. i do think we ought to be making sure we go through all the documents we want and obtain the documents before the witnesses come in. we don't want to have the witnesses jammed on us before we're able to do the preparation for those witness interviews. but it's, i think, very much as you described or the senators described, same witnesses probably for the most part and the same staff resources devoted to it. >> congressman schiff, one of the terms that happened today was the chairman of your committee you called on to recuse himself in this investigation, he took some shots at you and the other democrats on the committee. if you have just a moment, i'd love to get your response from the chairman if you can stick with us one more segment? >> sure. >> congrsman adam schiff stays
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rachel. and i don't want to get into a back and forth with the chair. i will say this. we've submitted witness lists to the majority. we offered the majority and for days we made this offer to try to get things started. and that is if they would like to bring directors rogers and comey back in closed session, we're fine with that let's schedule that and the open hearing. but what they're really trying to do is essentially prohibit sally yates from testifying publicly. we're not okay with that. we think the public has a right to know what led up to the firing of michael flynn. why did the president wait so long after learning that michael flynn had lied to take action or even inform the country it had been misled i think unwittingly by the vice president. these are questions that ought to be aired publicly. and i don't think we ought to use the subterfuge. and somehow we're prohibited from doing two things at once. let's schedule both hearings.
i think it's certainly more than a reasonable request. and we're waiting to hear back from the chair. >> i know you're hoping for the best. i've been told you're going to meet with chairman yourself tomorrow. if things don't go well, can you envision a scenario in which you and the other democrats on the committee would hold an unofficial public meeting somewhere that wasn't tenically a hearing of that committee in order to have publ testimony or do public questioning of somebody like sally yates if the chairman won't convene that? >> rachel, i think what's going to happen really regardless of whether the chairman recuses himself or doesn't. the investigation is going to go on. it has to go on. the only question is how credible will it be? but democrats are going to continue to work in a very straight forward way. we're going call all the witnesses that we feel are relevant and appropriate. we're going to follow the evidence where it leads. if the majority walls off certain things, we'll be very public about it. i imagine they're going to continue to want to call witnesses and move forward.
i do think to get back to a point you raised at the outset, one of the things that the russians have done is they have used financial entanglement in europe to try to exert influence over business people and politicians. that should not be beyond the scope of our investigation. well need to look at this issue as well. and so i don't think we ought to write off anything. some of the witnesses on our list do pertain to. >> for example, why there was this opposition at the republican convention to an amendment that would have been in support of providing defensive weapons to ukraine. if that changed as a result of anything that ambassador kislyak did or any other coordination, we ought to find out about it. i do disagree with my senate chaian counterpart. i think these are well within the scope, at least of the house investigation. >> congressman adam schiff, the top democrat on the house intelligence committee. congressman, thank you for your
time tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> what he just said there about financial entanglements and that should be part of the investigation, that's really important, and it's news that he said it. stay with us. we'll be right back. ♪ with advil, you'll ask what sinus headache? what stiff joints? what time of the month cramps? what nighttime pain? make all your pains a distant memory with advil
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issues for the benefit and safety of the american people. by grandstanding and political sizing the investigation into russia's actions, james comey created unnecessary pressure on our ability to negotiate with russia. james comey is ready to break his silence, seming an invitation to testify in open session before the senate intelligence committee at some point after memorial day. let's go now to riyadh, saudi arabia, where nbc's kristen welker is traveling with the president today. in a few minutes, president trump will officially be welcomed by the saudi royals. what will that look like? >> reporter: well, this is going to take place at the royal court palace. it will include the first lady and then a little bit later on the president will have a bilateral meeting with king salman. this is a day that's going to be filled with pomp and circumstance and the president will be meeting with saudi and arab leaders. his goal is to have a bit of a
reset, to send the message he's not anti-muslim, despite the kroefrsal comments he made on the campaign trail, despite his travel ban which bans people from predominantly muslim countries. he has a big ask as well. he wants this region to get more enganged in the fight against sis. he's being met with optimism, enthusiasm. they see him as someone who a counterpoint to former president obama. someone who will be tougher on iran. certainly, there's skepticism as well given some of his controversial comments. the president also hoping to turn the page on all of those controversies you just mentioned. >> the president is reportedly looking to reset relations with the muslim world in his saudi speech. how do you think he might do that? >> reporter: well, i think it's going to be a sweeping speech. i think you're going to hear him reach out to the muslim world, talk about the significance that this is his first step. that is by design. he wants to send a strong
he's going to have some international summits with foreign leaders. this is a foreign trip that has a high agenda. it's his first foreign trip so there's certainly a lot of pressure. he told reporters on air force one he didn't get a lot of sleep so we understand he's having a little down time before he restarts the day. >> it was a busy week. there were two key points that were dropped just before president trump left for saudi arabia. how is the white house reacting to these reports? is it going to affect the trip? >> reporter: it could affect the trip, no doubt about that. i think the president himself, his communication staff will continue to have to answer some very tough questions about those controversies that you laid out at the top of the show. late es controversies come on the heels of a number of controversies this past week, which stemmed from the president's controversial decision to fire fbi director james comey. i can tell you they're pushing
"morning joe" and "first look." what is the president trying to accomplish on this first stop of saudi arabia? >> can you look at it from a few different perspectives. there's the u.s./saudi relationship, what that entails, there's the broader gulf council, and then also the united states and islamic world. if you take a look at them from different layers, the first one is strengthening that bilateral relationship with saudi arabia. we expect the saudis to announce a potential arms deal, billions of dollars. strong economic prospects on the horizon between these two countries. more importantly, strengthening that relationship. with the broader gcc countries and countries of the gulf, look for them to discuss the issue of iran. that is something that is going to come up repeatedly. gulf countries are concerned about the rise of iran in yemen, activities in syria. they think iran is a destabilizing factor. they're trying to convince president trump to be more
engaged and have a robust prominence in the region. and finally, the most important meeting will be the summit with 37 heads of state from different muslim countries from around the world in which president trump will try to outline a strategy what he calls radical extremism. with the hopes of trying to get all those countries to play a bigger role in either creating, for example, a nato of sorts to fight in syria or to even combat terrorism in different forms, whether it's finance and funding or the spread of the ideology. he's got a very aggressive agenda. if he comes out there and checks the boxes on all of those and gets what he wants, it will be a successful trip. some are saying that will be a bit of a challenge. >> three key points to pay attention to here. the saudis are also expected to give president trump a royal welcome today. what can you tell us about that? >> if there's one thing saudis do well, it's pomp and circumstance. you've definitely seen that already with their arrival on the red carpet at the tarmac.
king salman went out to the airport himself to greet him at air force one. something he did not afford president obama when he arrived last year. this is a different tone. it's being cat gore ri ining cam as a reset. you see the military fly joefrs on the outside of the ritz carlton hotel, where the president is staying, a palatial hotel. they projected an image of donald trump and king salman on the outskirts of that hotel. they resident holding back on the pomp and circumstance to show they are welcoming him. the fact the saudi king was able to bring to the kingdom 37 heads of state, six heads of government, it shows you how much the saudis bent over backwards to make this a successful trip for president trump. they want him to feel like he's going to get a win. that's what they set out to do
by putting together this very busy schedule over the course of the next 24 hours or so. >> president trump will be making a speech tomorrow. what are you hearing about that and how much of a shift from his past rhetoric about islam is he actually expected to make? >> interesting. we'll see the kind of language he uses in that speech. keep in mind president trump as candidate trump really did not hold back his disdain for the religion, for islam, for muslims. in fact, he said all kinds of disparaging things people chash characterized outright -- he said -- he called for a complete ban of muslims coming into the united states. obviously, that was candidate trump. even as president, some people took offense with what they described as the muslim ban, that travel ban he tried to put in place. the speech this time around is
challenges the united states tries to define what if considers to be terrorism and radical extremism and what arab and muslim countries will be able to offer in terms of fighting that ideology. there's going to be a lot of sticking points. look for this to be at least a reset of some sorts on that particular issue. >> certainly a lot on the table. stay with me. i want to bring in steve clemons, msnbc contributor and editor-at-large with "atlantic" magazine and colonel jackson, msnbc analyst. this welcome is vastly different from the welcome president obama got when he visited in april of 2016 when he was treated by the governor of riyadh. why do the saudis like trump better? did the air strike in syria possibly put president trump over the top? >> i think you nailed it. i think right now the saudis are trying to push reset with this white house. i think ayman described it beautifully that the saudis have been frustrated with the tilt
president obama's white house gave to iran or how they saw the tilt in orchestrating, negotiating the iran deal. whether you support it or not, nonetheless, it gave iran a pathway the saudis have resented and they thought the focus of the white house were too focused on the persian side of the equation and not the sunni/muslim side of equation which saudis are the recognized leader. i think they're trying to push reset. they've had several good meetings. the foreign minister has had a number of meetings with jared kushner, others in the white house. they're trying to put that forward. they're also trying to say, you know, anything they can show that is different than president obama, that the trump white house is willing to jump into as well. have you two parties trying to redefine the relationship right now. >> cole kel nell jacobs, one thing ayman mentioned is this big formal announcement. it's a $100 billion arms deal with saudi arabia. how will that affect the balance
balance of power in a positive way. not only ships but helicopters, cruise missiles and other munitions. not all will be delivered right away. over the long haul it will be a positive influence on our capability to control the region. >> steve, you mentioned this earlier, that the arms deal seems to have been hammered out by jared kushner who "the times" reports personally negotiated prices with lockheed martin. does that seem unusual? is he shaping the middle east here? >> he has a role. we don't know all the details. there's a lot of details i'm waiting to see. i'm waiting to see the offset arrangements are. that's a technical term, when foreign nations are using their tax dollars to buy our foreign systems, we obligate technology transfer, which on occasion has affected the american jobs that will be touted as part of this arms deal. there's a net loss in some capacities on this offset arrangement that go back into these countries.
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moments from now we are expecting the official saudi welcoming ceremony for president trump to begin. this is a live picture around the saudi palace where that ceremony will be taking place. that was president trump arriving, the royal welcome. it's an attempted to turn the page between saudis and u.s. after relations faltered under the obama administration. joining me is executive director of the arabia foundation, author of a new op-ed in "the new york times" headlined what saudi arabia needs to hear from trump. great to have you here this morning. >> thank you. >> in your op-ed you say, the saudis will be listening intently this weekend for even more reassurance from mr. trump that the iran page has truly been turned and it's back on track. is that the main goal for saudi arabia, gaining assurances from trump on iran?
>> i think so. it's also the saudi government appreciates the symbolism of the visit. the fact president trump is coming there as his first visit abroad. the message it all sends to the american heartland that saudi arabia is a very close ally of america. with all the confusion that came out in the rhetoric of the campaign, and also the confusion generally over the past 10, 15 years since 9/11, i think the american public has been confused about saudi arabia's role. and having president trump, you know, had said a lot of negative things on the campaign. once he becomes president, deciding to come to saudi arabia as his first stop and reiterating the close relationship and for the american public to see the warmth that the president has received in saudi arabia, drives home the fact this is really a 75-year-old strategic relationship that has only grown stronger over the last 10, 15 years. military, security and intelligence. and i think that is being very
well received in saudi arabia. >> what messages are saudi leaders looking to hear from the president? >> i think a confirmation really of what the administration has expressed so far. so the administration has come around to the saudi view that iran is the major driver of insecurity in the region and, actually, is as dangerous as isis. and the administration has, in the person of their secretary of defense and national security advisers, have said that on numerous occasions. so, i think that appreciation of joint risk that we see coming from iran is very important. and we expect the president will be reiterating that. and the fact that the first line of defense really against terrorism starts with countries like saudi arabia that are on the front line of fighting terrorism.
saudi arabia is on the front line of fighting isis and is on the front line of fighting terrorism. the fact the president is coming there is a confirmation of that. >> and how will today's events be different from those that took place during former president obama's trips to saudi arabia? >> look, president obama, the problem with president obama is people in saudi arabia felt president obama underestimated the risk that the iranian regime showed really, or the underlying risk of iranian in the middle east. they feel iranians have a dog and pony show. they have a foreign minister and president that speak nicely with moderation but the people who really run iran, the supreme leader and revolutionary guard are working on subversion, from syria to yemen. there's discomfort that sort of
narrative and pr the iranians were projecting in a way was balked by the obama white house. >> i'm going to bring in my colleague, ayman mohyeldin for a minute. >> if i can ask you specifically about what the saudis would like to see the united states play particularly in the yemen theater, would they like to see the united states get involved military in yemen? what would be on the top of the list from the saudi king's perspective on what the united states can do to curb what you're describing as iran's subversive actions in the region? >> don't think there's any expectation the united states will have any boots on the ground. its the question of increased intelligence sharing and more maybe vigorous role by the u.s. navy to interdict iranian arms being smuggled from iran to yemen. i think those are the two. obviously, the supply of arms the obama administration had put those particularly certain
ammunitions -- precision ammunition on hold. and the trump administration has released those. so, i think that is what we're looking for really. nothing more elaborate than that. >> we're going to come back with a ceremony as it's about to begin. right now, what trump supporters in north carolina have to say about the last two weeks, especially about the russia probe. here's some of what you'll hear later this hour. >> i think it's a witch hunt and i think there may have been communication with russia. that is totally different from collaborating with russia. and i mean, we need to communicate with the other countries. (dog) mmm. this new
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president arrived in saudi arabia with a welcoming ceremony on the tarmac. the saudi king greeted the president. within minutes there will be a bigger welcoming ceremony at the saudi palace. it's about 1:30 in the afternoon in riyadh. president trump is halfway through the first day of his first overseas trip, but the saudis are not done celebrating his afrrival yet. what can you tell us about mr. trump's day so far? >> reporter: of course, you saw the welcoming reception we had at the airport earlier this morning. you saw later this afternoon we'll have another such welcoming reception. he has other meetings on his schedule today. he's meeting with crown prince as well as deputy crown prince and then another banquet meeting with his wife melania. one of the bigger attractions is the speech tomorrow to the muslim world. it's notable considering trump's past comments. the way he campaigned for president, largely islam phobic
terms. a lot of his supporters during the campaign telling me that kind of rhetoric is what mobilized them to vote for trump in the first place. of course, you'll also remember one of the first major actions his administration took once coming into washington in office is that travel executive order which targeting freedom nantly muslim countries and the way they could enter the united states. of course, the white house is hoping to reset a little bit of those muslim relations with his speech tomorrow. one adviser calling this an historic opportunity and saying that it's a chance to bring people together in spite of petty differences. that's something we're looking at as we go forward on this saudi arabia leg. >> and we saw the red carpet come out when the president arrived. now we're going to go on to another ceremony. is this what president trump expected on his visit is or is this a little more than what he anticipated? >> reporter: i think this pomp and circumstance is always something trump will be happy about. even as a candidate he used talk
about his gold elevator he came down to announce his candidacy. today i watched him go up another gold elevator to meet the king. i think this kind of luxuriousness he sees in saudi arabia is something he really likes, it resonates with him. you see it in his properties, the way he's been seefd today. i think this is something that will jibe well with the president. >> thank you for your time. for more on the president's first overseas trip, let's bring in rick tyler, republican strategist and msnbc political analyst. rick, before we get to more on the trip, what did you make of all those domestic headlines from last night we reported on a short time ago? which one of them concerns you most? >> well, it was quite remarkable as the president's plane was taking off for riyadh, you had two breaking stories. i think the story, of course, that the president called comey a nut job was embarrassing, to
say the least, but certainly the story that was reported about one senior administration official, some were speculating jared kushner, is the target of an investigation of -- in this whole russian investigation. >> rick, the president's going to be out of the country now for nine days. how is this going to reverberate back at the white house? these are huge headlines. >> they are large headlines. part of this nine-day trip to four different countries, which was really billed as a religious freedom trip. he's going to many of the religious centers of the world, rome, riyadh, and it was designed to replace all of these headlines. we'll see if it can do that or generate more headlines or the domestic headlines at home subsume the trip. >> which headline do you think will actually damage the
president the most? >> well, he'd certainly like to get this russian investigation behind him. in some ways the special counsel being appointed will settle things down a little bit. you notice nancy pelosi even yesterday was asking the democrats who may be overplaying their hand to tone it down a little bit and curb their enthusiasm. a special counsel is really problematic for the president. they have unilateral authority. they can't -- it's very difficult to derail or to fire the investigator. mueller is a man of integrity. i'm sure donald trump would love to hear all the things that have been said about mueller over the past few days about him. but will not be. and so, you know, it's more of a longer story that's going to hang on for a long time. if nothing comes of it, of course, there will be embarrassment on the democratic side. but it's fraught with the
addition the investigation itself is fraught with danger for this administration. >> there are reports of leaks coming from the west wing. it's not just reports of leaks from the intelligence community. do you think these leaks inside the white house surprise you? some things we're finding out couldn't have come from anywhere else. >> no, these leaks are coming from very senior people in the white house. it's really unclear who it is. the fact that the president, you know, had called former director a nut job to the russians, of all people, that could only have come from a senior-level source. and so, he's got a real problem with leaks. and the problem with leaks, leaks come for, you know, many different reasons. sometimes staffers love to see the stories they generate. other times it's sabotage that may be happening in this case. sometimes it's just to get the president's attention. >> overnight it was reported that the russia investigation has reached a current senior level white house official.
how significant is that and what are the immediate ramifications? >> well, i think it's very significant. any time you have a senior official under investigation, you had flynn originally, manafort is now under investigation. now there's a third person. some are speculating that it's his son-in-law, jared kushner. it could end up in nothing. but usually when people are targeted in an investigation, they have some clear and convincing evidence that there was some wrongdoing. so, we'll just have to see how it plays out. i take it this is an fbi investigation and not a special counsel investigation because i don't think even mueller could have gotten his investigation off the ground so quickly. but maybe i'm wrong about that. >> rick, sometimes trips for presidents overseas actually helps boost them when they come back. do you think this is actually going to help president trump or do you think it might actually do damage?
>> historically foreign trips do help presidents because you have -- you have an american president on the world stage, but it all depends on how they perform. donald trump is a brand manager. and the american brand, if you will, has really been damaged since he's been in the white house overseas. the american, as a brand name, if i can use that term, is seen with skepticism here in europe and throughout the world. but donald trump, you know, he does have the capacity. he could turn that around. if he acts presidential on this trip, and we can see some real progress with the saudis in tweeting isis, that would be one thing. with religious freedom in terms of meeting the pope, who he also was in an argument with, unbelievably, during the campaign. so, we'll see what he does. he just got started. he'll be in israel in a couple days. i'll be there as well so i'll keep track of how it's going.
>> an interesting nine days ahead. rick tyler, thank you for your time. >> yeah, absolutely. what trump supporters have to say about the past two weeks. msnbc spoke with several supporters in the state of north carolina. >> so, another thing i've heard from people, the second half of that, are people who do what we do, need to give him time. >> i personally think mainstream media is so critical of the man that he's not getting a fair deal. at the top of the hour, about a nut job. the new report about what president trump told the russians about firing former fbi director james comey. so if you need anything, text me. do you play? ♪ ♪ use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before.
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break overnight. the president afshed in saudi arabia. we are now waiting in minutes a larger official welcoming ceremony at the saudi palace. so, what do voters have to say about the developments in the white house over the past two weeks? we sent msnbc's garrett to lincolnton, north carolina. >> what was it that attracted you to trump did the in the first place? >> i hated hillary. basically, my vote for trump was because i would not vote for hillary. >> what do you think of his performance so far? >> i think -- i think it's pretty -- it's decent, okay? i think he's trying to run the country like maybe he does his businesses. and as such, maybe, you know, he's not doing enough politic e
politicizing in d.c. and so forth and he's getting people dead set against him. but overall inc. he's doing an okay job. i think he's getting a bum rap. >> reporter: you don't think the media is giving him a fair take? >> i really don't. i really don't. >> reporter: how close have you been following this last week where it seems every day there's another big story, big leak about something russia or fbi-related? >> i mean, i've been following it. and i think, you know, there might be something to it. i think the russia thing there probably isn't anything to. >> reporter: last night the doj said they're going to appoint a special counsel to take over the russia investigation. >> right. >> reporter: what do you make of that? >> i think this is just part of the witch hunt. >> i think it's a witch hunt. i think there may have been communication with russia. that is totally different from collaborating with russia. i mean, we need to communicate with the other countries, but i do not think he is collaborating
with them against the country. i like president trump says he's going to drain the swamp. inc. there's a lot of corruption in washington and i would love to see that clear out. i think the people who are raising all this stink about him are the ones who are scared. they may be the slimy snakes that needs to be drained out. >> people in washington hate trump so much that they're willing to do anything to get him out. >> it may appear from certain per spepgss he's getting a raw deal but i think they're trying to hold him accountable. now i see him in action he seems more impulse sif than strategic and that concerns me. part of getting businesses back into our country also means we have to maintain foreign relations in a certain way because we're not just an island to ourselves. >> i think very with to give him the benefit of the doubt. he is the president. we have to hope he's going to do the best job for all of the american people, not just republicans.
>> reporter: how much attention are you paying to this week we've had in washington, d.c.? >> okay. i feel it is totally unfair. both sides need to come together and solve the problems of the country. >> the justice department appointed a special counsel to take over the russia investigation. what do you make of that? >> i think the liberals are so upset because they lost the election. liberals tend to it's their way or no way. i agree with the right to free speech, the right to protest, but when you disagree with something and you start wurning and looting and rioting, that's crossing a line. >> reporter: the president called the special counsel a witch hunt this morning. >> yes. how long have they been talking about the russian connection? there's some democrats on tv that there's no evidence and yet on the other hand if you look at hillary's e-mails, the meeting with bill clinton on the car
mack, but that's not being pursued sfloot other thing i've heard from people are the second half of that. we need to give him time. >> i personally think mainstream media is so critical of the man that he's not getting a fair deal. >> reporter: thank you very much. i won't take any of that mainstream media stuff too personally. president trump arriving in saudi arabia overnight. in minutes, we'll take you live to a welcoming ceremony at the saudi palace and talk about the expectations for his visit. and a speech he's going to give on islam. 12:30 eastern, catch premiere edition at "velshi & ruhle." what's that?
the president arrived about four hours ago in saudi arabia. he was greeted on the tarmac by king salman. and right now, you see his car, his motorcade at the royal court. it is at the saudi royal palace where he will have a welcoming ceremony hosted by king salman. and this is the second welcoming ceremony, but this is a bigger, official welcoming ceremony here at the saudi royal palace. and joining me again, steve clem yoens with "atlantic magazine," alisha habi, colonel jack jacobs, and msnbc's aman moyahidin. what are we looking at here? >> you are looking at the beast, which is the presidential motorcade, that cadillac there, very distinct, being escorted by
members of the cavalry, the royal cavalry, an onary guard part of the royal court of the kingdom of saudi arabia. so as the -- and you're seeing there, kenging salman as well a the crown pribs making their way out to the red carpet to welcome president trump as he gets out of the limousine. but essentially, you're seeing a ceremonial welcome by -- and i would say a very traditional welcome by the leadership of saudi arabia to president trump. they're not holding anything back with that escort, as well. there is a very underlying message being sent to president trump that this literally and symbolically is the red carpet being rolled out for president trump to welcome him to saudi arabia. and it tells you -- it says a lot about president trump and how the saudis are viewing this relationship and this stage of
the american saudi relationship. but it also says a lot of how they view the end of president obama and that administration. so the fact that they are rolling this out, i would say this is very rare for the saudis. this would be almost the equivalent of a state visit here in the united states when the white house throws out and rolls out the red carpet to heads of state. this is probably the closest thing saudis have to it. nothing is being held back in terms of the pomp and circumstance of it. so we'll see how this continues. but as you mentioned, this is one of many palaces that the saudi government has and certainly there was the official ceremony at the airport welcoming president trump. but this is the one that's going to be a little bit more significant because you'll see senior members of the royal family, you'll see senior members of the diplomatic core, i believe, there. we've caught a quick glimpse of jared and ivanka trump, as well. you'll see the upper etch losh of the senior saudi government, ministers and all of them will be involved in welcoming
president trump. >> and ali, if you could weigh in here, how is this going to play out? how do you think that saudi arabia is viewing president trump and what do you think he's expected to accomplish during his trip to saudi arabia? >> well, i think the fact that he has come and the way that he has come has his first visit is an accomplishment in itself. and that's been very much appreciated because he's sending a message. and saudi arabia is reciprocating that message with a very warm welcome that they're extending him. you know, a welcome, as aman said, extending to your closest friends and allies. so i think, you know, the pivot that president trump has accomplished in his rhetoric and the fact that he has come to saudi arabia shows that he understands that, you know, islam and his muslim allies are the first line of defense, really, against the fight -- in the fight against terrorism and the symbolism of this and the fact that the american public is going to be seeing this on
television and the saudi public, also, is positive all around. >> and, steve, i'm going to ask you, saudi arabia is really rolling out the welcome mat for president trump. how do you think the rest of the world is viewing him right now? >> well, i think the rest of the world is looking at the saudis trying to resecure itself as a important -- in an important leadership role in the middle east. i think many around the world saw a rising iran and a floundering saudi arabia that was unable to shape its environment and to really control what was unfolding in the middle east. it felt its relationship with the united states waning. and so in this sculpting of the theater of a very renewed and strong and vibrant u.s.-saudi relationship which now will be permanently defining for donald trump, this is the first nation that he has visited outside the united states, they're trying to serve each other at the top of
their game. and i think you're going to see a lot of countries kind of doubt this, but impressed, nonetheless. >> we're going to take a few seconds just to listen in to the ceremony. ♪ ♪ >> a man, if you could way in on this, just a few months ago, president trump was trying to issue a travel ban to seven predominantly muslim can countries. now saudi arabia was not one of those countries, but how does this play out now? because a warm welcome today from leaders is there, but does the general public share the same sentiment? >> well, i think the underlying message is that the saudi relationship wants to put the comments and perhaps some of the policies of candidate trump or policies that he advocated really on the back burner. they want to try to find the commonalities, the shared interests between the two countries at this stage. you know, keep in mind that
president trump s -- and, again, as a private citizen as well as a candidate, had some very harsh words about the saudi leadership, about the saudi government, really did not hold back his punches when he suggested that they were involved in all kinds of nefarious activities around the world. in addition to that, he nanded and said that he wanted to get saudi oil for free at the one point back in 2014 tweeting that out. so obviously those are not lost on the saudi government. they're aware of that, but they're also aware of the reality that that's what he said to get elected, those are the things that they perhaps felt resinate with an american electric tore wrat. but now that he's there, that's why these images are so important because saudi arabia sees itself as a protector or one of the leading countries involved in the promotion of islam around the world, they see themselves as the voice of perhaps one of the strongest voices of speaking out on behalf of the sunni muslim world. that may not necessarily be something other countries agree with, but that's certainly the
role that saudi arabia traditionally has as the host of two of the most holiest sites in islam. so it has some role and that's something that the saudi arabia government takes very profoundly as its responsibility in dealing with the united states. . you talked about the travel ban that was issued. obviously, that was a very controversial decision here in the united states, challenged and successfully challenged in the courts. but it did not play well overseas. a lot of countries felt that this was a ban and while it wasn't a ban on all muslim countries, it was ban only on muslims. it certainly affected muslims coming out of very volatile countries across the region and that's how it was played out and people took offense to it. but the saudi arabian government today is trying to rehit a reset button on a more strategically important relationship with the united states. the argument that gulf officials have been making is to try to win over the support of the trump administration by showing the trump administration how important saudi arabia and the gulf arab countries are to the