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Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book TV 20140413

>> there's no question that congress routinely and administrations routinely don't speak the truth to the american public. that's not just inaccuracies in terms of the affordable health care act would do. it is the absence of speaking the truth about where we are. where are we quiet we are now at a standard of living the same as what we had any teen 88. we now have, per family, unfunded obligations in. dad of $1.1 million per family. that needs to be spoken as we can build a context for the test things that are going to come. the biggest problem i see with congress' denial of reality. you can still be a good person and deny reality. we all have flaws that we don't deny reality and as in our lives every day because we don't want to face them. the fact is we have had the leadership in a long time. that would stand up and tell the truth and the american public about the situation we find ourselves in. you can debate what caused it. i will live out my idea what caused them. >> career, politics and reasons for retirement from the senate at the end of the session here tonight at 8:00 these stands q&a. >> you are watching the tv. next, an interview with kate bowler about her book "blessed." she looks at the long history depressed or the gospel in the united states and profiles for her to cost the preachers like joel osteen, t.d. jakes and joyce meyer. this interview was recorded at the washington duke and in durham, north carolina. it is part of the tvs college series. >> "blessed" is the name of the book. "blessed: a history of the american prosperity gospel." duke university professor of religion, kate bowler is the author. professor bowler, what is the prosperity gospel? >> it developed a special vocabulary for how exactly faith reaches out and brings back material things. >> host: what is pentecostal? >> guest: pentecostalism is a movement that sprang up in the early 20th century, kind of rough-and-tumble. openness and spiritual guests on the power of god spoken through glossolalia. it's really a science and wonder that god is around the corner. the prosperity gospel books for different things. poster when you say things, this dirty cost both meanwhile if you follow this way? >> guest: pentecostals are material, too. he was one of the most profoundly american things you can say. so the prosperity gospel took that to say so the more concretely. every detail in my life is actually proof god was there. >> host: is this uniquely american? >> guest: in some ways it's an indigenous american fastball. it has an incredible high anthropology and there's no meaning kind of sensible people can do. and there's no nation that seems more confident in what they can accomplish. postcode or some of the preachers of the press or to gospel into a call at gospel? >> guest: yeah, that such a tough question. some of the most popular are joel osteen, t.d. jakes, joyce meyer, frederick price. everywhere there is to make a church and local celebrity you will find press dirty preacher. no one wants to be called a prosperity preacher. how do you want people and that would naturally resist that kind of label? >> guest: to some of those participate in the book? >> guest: dates it. i managed to visit a quarter of prosperity churches. i interview someone representing the ministry. i went to every major conference. i was the annoying person pressed up against the glass at every conference hoping to get a glimpse of what was going on. >> host: what did you hear? what kind of message are these churches preaching? >> guest: was surprised me the most was it wasn't so much about money. at that naturally prosperity cost full is one of the most surprising claims. surely this is a gospel about money. but i found was people didn't talk about many nearly as much as i acted into. the kind of excitement they had was that every special detail was given god's attention. not just the kind of god in every empty parking space sentimentality, but their budgets, families, and marriage is, their happiness, their promotion that every little part of their lives were worthy of spiritual attention. >> host: what does that have to do is prosperity? is the more than wealth prosperity? >> guest: they would call it a holy prosperity. in theological terms with a something like critics would call it a more overly realized eschatology meaning we'll see more of the presence of the kingdom of god here on earth were traditionally christian set that most of the good stuff happens after we die. >> host: kate bowler, i'm paraphrasing, but what you give, god gives back tenfold. >> guest: this search for the numbers is a tricky one. most of the hard numbers people get from teasing apart the covenant theology throughout the old testament. it's a few concrete numbers. threes come the sentence. under his. that people are looking -- the desire for numbers is most a desire to look for a spiritual formula. what is that? where can we find the key that unlocks cards being? where there is the number of revelation, the literature, they will try to find and tease out for me last. for the most part, prosperity preachers or try to shy away from numbers. in part because there is a greater sin that the theology says more begets more common than we do live in a relatively concrete financial universe and they can't promise everyone 100 fold on every return. >> host: by mega-churches? >> guest: mega-churches are easier because there's ardea database at the 1600 or so churches that exist in the country. what i could do was hope for every single one in every website and pull them out of make my own list based on shared rhetoric from the shared touche no connections. they tend a garden thing, and this comic at accredited, honorary doctorates from the same schools. i figure if they look and talk and walk like a prosperity documents case, then i can lump them together on my own. >> host: took the mega-churches become mega-churches because they preach this prosperity gospel? >> guest: it's an excellent question. the relationship between fundraising and a large church had seen to be kind of natural allies in many dances. we will sometimes find a smaller church should take unimpressed dirty theology and so it becomes a prosperity mega church. we shouldn't confuse mega-churches in the prosperity gospel. their 1600 or so mega-churches in the country and only a minority are prosperity mega churches. what's most unusual though is that they really dominate the upper tier of churches. the biggest of the big churches in the country preaching message and their influence is enormous. they can be thought of sort of like the top of a feudal pyramid, where they have a service to people under them the election conference oration at the message spread far beyond what you might expect a local preacher could do. >> host: lakewood church, self-reported thousand. that's an average weekly attendance? crop flow dollar. 30,000 college per, georgia. the potters has td jakes, 37, dallas texas. by this prosperity churches? >> guest: absolutely. any of the ones i listed in the appendices as a kind of helpful shorthand to redefine these churches are all prosperity churches and most of them make the top 50 of the largest churches in the country. >> host: all tax-exempt? >> guest: they are entrepreneurial in. the churches themselves are tax-exempt. tgg enterprises and he's agreed it ample because he's the producer, probably a writer, and that's all kinds of fingers and from pot. both they don't like it may necessarily a example of someone who's taking the money out of the coffers. i make most of my money from this other wing. that is sometimes true for some and less true for others. they don't really have to justify how much money they make in part because of the theological infrastructure of the movement. i have to say if i did it and i can show you how to do it too. i can show you the way. >> host: somebody who spoke at present bush is inaugural, kirby john caldwell, windsor village united methodist church, 14,000 attendance, houston, texas. >> host: why it took me so long to write this book is in order to demonstrate how widespread it is, we have to take into account not just the stereotypical press or to make a churches which are nondenominational, to some of the denominational one that in almost every major american denomination we find at least one prosperity mega church. that could include the united methodist, it's adorable if they are, disciples of christ. we are just shy of a presbyterian mega-church. i'm sure somewhere out there. >> host: wind of this prosperity gospel -- first of all, is very political philosophy? to the top politics? >> guest: they do, but it's a subset. we think of them as having different niche is. or the spiritual wear for a guy coming or the prophecy lady. you're the politics to. for this, we'll find jon henke, there will be a subset that will overlap with the christian right. for the most part they don't really need to talk nuts and bolts of politics because god has offered them an end run around this is to. to what they need do is get serious about their faith and was hoping. >> host: wind of this movement start? >> guest: i think the beginning of the message from a spring out of the postwar revival from the 1950s. so these are pentecostal independent revivalist. these are the guys to show up the small towns, put up giant canvas cathedrals and track hundreds and sometimes thousands of people. in the postwar years, and these have traditionally been heroes. someone like oral roberts but the 19 in his right hand. these were usually people who people came to be held from a kind of diseases. after world war ii we find the number of diseases that need to be healed in this way really reduce. max vaccinations. there's some sense as sosa a kind of thinks me from preachers. there's a developing confidence they have come a new vocabulary that springs of billfold some multiplier for steve faith is a word that comes into turn -- and to use. the idea that your money is not just a concrete name. as a representation of what could have been. you have to sell it into because fisk is toilet but then multiply that to you. this is all very different in the language of tightening the truth discreet and concrete. tithing 10% of what you birdie on. siegfried asks people to give in order to risk youth. many multiplied in an in spiritual universe. this is absolutely animated. >> host: jim and tammy faye bakker, with a prosperity gospel ministers? >> guest: they were the kind of perfect embodiment of that. i like writing about the fact he started a christian wonderland instead of the church. they had a see what god can do playful attitude. tammy faye was always two seconds away from her stint in tucson at all times. here without a powder blue suit and a heavy gold watch and a carnival like atmosphere in their life and marriage. because of that very magnetic. they were so fond to watch and had a who knows what's there open the doors virtually the lookout for an. >> host: who did these minutes as appeal to? >> guest: well, there's very little good data on that. the relationship between audience and televangelist is pretty meager as far as to draw in. we do know that in the 80s the kinds of televangelist like tammy faye bakker. check it to the silver set, the elderly, the at-home viewers. but now we can see what the mega-church phenomenon, this is a young middle-class phenomenon. everyone thinks this is a sad come into janette poured her chin on my last penny to drop it in the coffers. but this is the kind of thing an aspirational middle-class audience is going to see weekly in order to get practical resources for how to think about their shops and marriages and parenting as spiritual. >> host: white black latino? >> guest: sure. right now i do a thing on latino mega-churches and it's overwhelming how many were started in the last 10 years. latino mega-churches are the new fresh face on the same. before they been largely constrained to immigrant resource is, very small churches. but now there like everybody else, have different tv shows him under an top arms. like one of the offshoots, for example, robert schuller's church, crystal cathedral was a fabulous incarnation. anytime you have a church of the river, i feel like you have a gospel. the latino church that can be in office to college favored day church is the latino prosperity and they have a whole host of the lease between three and 5000 to a church like that. >> host: kate bowler can you teach religion here at duke. we teach each? >> guest: [inaudible] >> host: what is your religious background? >> guest: i come from a non-denominational mennonite background. >> host: you consider yourself a christian? >> guest: i do. >> host: when you look at mega-churches, what appeals to you? >> guest: i do find sometimes the gustavus i can impart the ability of such a departure from a lot of mainline churches i go to weather that can see through a run and ask for food program. the cover bester route reaches. a very concrete, very practical. i love the excitement. i love the enthusiasm. it gives dignity to every person in a way to really impress me. >> host: what doesn't appeal to you? >> guest: i think i asked you that sometimes just based on lies that when i visit these churches. when i'm sitting at the choir so inspirational, the hints are swaying. as such and not in the day, beautiful thing. if i sit near the rear chill section i find this couple to make it through the services. when you see all that are so sure that their faith has let them down, that their bodies are failing them, that they have a weekly errands to do. she'll inadequacies as they are not yet healed or not get rich, i want safe to be a place where people receive comfort that we are told maybe but not quite yet. that's not always the message they're getting. >> host: to students at the divinity school here at duke, do they admire, judaic buyer to be mega-church pastors? >> guest: for the most part they are lovely cheese eating method is at the gentle variety. so they are largely -- they're stuck with the same mainline problems everybody else's. mortgage heavy churches, largely downtown that they could no longer afford. they struggle with your questions at the prosperity gospel. what happens if they can't prove things will become bigger and better? what would it decline narrative look like insulated rhetoric of faithfulness? at the real challenge for everyone. post a mega-churches are growing? >> guest: they are. they are crowded around every urban metropolis. they are a wide-open virtual market. but they really appeal to a certain kind of preacher. you has has to be wildly charismatic. you have to have a fabulous head of hair and you have to have an infectious sense that things always will get better. people rarely going to attend a church or your kids may not be a smart come your marriage might fall through. americans want to your things will tomorrow and they will avoid the churches to challenge that. >> host: do politicians -- are they trying to these large congregations on one place? >> guest: absolutely. we see it in a battleground states show up whenever there's a series of mega-churches in a battleground state. bettina mega-churches are especially popular. it's a swing vote. hostels that is in a swing state. they can become incredibly effective ways of mobilizing people in getting the message out. >> host: are there areas where most of these churches are aggregated? >> guest: sure. it's easier to tell where the prosperity churches are not. vermont, for example has very few. the northeast is not fertile ground. neither is the mountain west. whether mormons are not in we typically find very few. there are very few mega-churches. >> host: wide? >> guest: it is in part because the demographics. the next certain populations. they really put churches like that at the crossroads of major highways. so where we find big open spaces with major highways and a huge sprawling population, albeit almost all sunbelt cities some of those are going to be fabulous but fertile ground. also just places where people are on move. places where hispanic immigration is on the rise, that's a great -- i could tell people right now where they should plant churches and their likely grow the next five years. it's really about immigration population density, major highways. >> host: here in north carolina near durham, any mega-churches in this area? >> guest: there are mega-churches. there is one prosperity mega-church in the area, while dover, had fun from the 1980s it was kind of an amazing story. one of the few mega-churches that was simply urban. it was a time of the church had more people than the time it was then. they have the kind of jim and tammy said appeal where they had matching spurt lease its. >> host: it is the difference between a mega-church in the prosperity mega-church. the mega-churches have the reputation for being non-denominational, optimistic, things would get better. for the most part come in mega-churches usually numb or his lies, and many if not most long to denominations in the typically mall. most are barely hitting the threshold in 2000 to 2500. prosperity mega-churches, the report things. i look for faith, a sense that faith is not just toper trust, but actually a spiritual power released by believers, the invisible thing that goes out into the universe and draws back. so how do you know your faith is working? look for health and wealth. is it the other two markers. there's a lot of pentecostal preachers. you're my prosperity church if he preached those. the last is victory. victory is the thing that will put in people are spinning globe in every logo. it is the connection that people think they're just about to get better. chin up, eyes on the horizon. if he preached us for things, come about separator prosperity mega-church from an average mega-church. host go home partner status? >> guest: extremely important. they are the primary litmus test of whether the prosperity cost was working. no one wants to see aside doughty man standalone in the pulpit. what they want is beautiful, bond or these voluminously haired wife standing beside him. it's also a great week to divide the ministry and to geishas. the one mentioned the women and children and the man can do the heavy lifting of the main prosperity work. that became popular in the 1980s and has become the major trend in almost all churches today. >> host: to the ministers of these press dirty mega-churches font their wealth? >> guest: absolutely. they will do it in more lefties always. i only she'll are recently have slack for the helicopter needed new plates and asking people to donate. the number was $52 per person in order to supply more for that ministry. master people a slightly to match. that just goes to show you just how fired they can go in order to demonstrate that their lives are really marked by god's favor. >> host: kate bowler, sunday mornings, joel osteen on for just half an hour. his term in. what is a fully church service like? >> guest: it will service them uplifting music via grammy award-winning singer-songwriter. it will have some gentle fog that mimics the holy spirit come down. he'll have at least 20 people greeting you before you make your way from the concrete parking needs into the sanctuary and the gorgeous enormous building. the illness are designed to be the most beautiful places people are every week. truth and beauty has always been the main appeals of the christian message. they are really going for beauty. >> host: , the whole service last? >> guest: you have about 20 minutes or so of music and then in many paintings are minimal frequently be done by the tory a last people to give this understanding of you kids and god will reward you with more. and then the bucket come out in the buckets go away. joel osteen will preach for less than half an hour to virtual sans round of the master service. they're quite efficient. i went to their good ready service. it is in part because i couldn't find any other good ready service in his canaria, which initially surprised me and then if you think it through, they don't need good friday so much as they need use her. so good friday -- but what a good friday service look like quite i was wished he joyfully happy good friday at least 15 times on my way in. they have kind of a living as they brought out a lamb. by the third song, jesus had died, but then was swiftly resurrect it. quite early on in the service, which shows you how quickly they want to rush to the hand. they really want to russia because just to show you chooses to solve the terrible work so you get the kind of blessings god wants to shower in you. >> host: about the mainline churches on the some of the missions come out reach, food banks, shipments, et cetera come into the prosperity churches have those programs as well? >> guest: they do. here we can see if that term of approaches. a hard prosperity is a very instantaneous view of the relationship between faith and rewards. you have faith you will find yourself almost in continuously healed in the coffers will begin to be filled. itzhak prosperity will have a more roundabout gentler appraisal of the relationship works between faith in the work. there's a hard prosperity with more of an emphasis on individuals who shall serve as this, scott kind of rather than advocating, for example, educational reform, they look at every kid a kid a school bag filled with school supplies. something catered towards individuals and individuals and understand their level. the soft press verities a little more open, especially among lack mega-churches, a lot more open to housing, prison reform, whiter macrolevel structural solutions. for the most part, press verity thinking tilts away from structural solutions because out of 30 giving you everything you need in order to solve the problems. >> host: what is in the reaction of some of the mega-church members to your book, "blessed." >> guest: i think there's an -- i hope there's been some level of wreck -- and that those are categories they use and hold dear. i'd think there'll always be wary that anyone who sat in the word gospel like prosperity gospel before the word is not surely be kept at all of it. for the most fair, the criticism i've gotten the same tonight and i'd rather have that answer has something something people didn't recognize. >> host: who says you're too nice? >> guest: most everyone. evangelicals are not thrilled with me. one called it dangerous for fear that people read the book and accidentally convert. i just think it is the work of history. charity in humor circle and never tried to present things in the way people would recognize. >> host: at the search is evangelical? >> guest: well, the boundaries of pentecostal or quite porous. we have found that straddle the line between pentecostal evangelical, but more and more straight up evangelical. he

Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book TV 20140414

really everywhere there is a mega church and a local celebrity, you'll find a prosperity preacher. but the term itself is very controversial. no one wants to be called a prosperity preacher and that was the burden of writing this book. how do you bring people and that would naturally resist that kind of label. >> did some of those ministers participate in the book? >> they did. i managed to visit a quarter of all of what identified as prosperity mega churches. i interviewed someone representing the ministry from almost every major ministry. i went to every major conference. i was the annoying person pressed up against the glass at every conference hoping to get a glimpse of what was going on. >> what did you hear? what kind of message are these churches preaching? >> i think what surprised me the most was that it wasn't so much about money. i but naturally the prosperity gospel money was its most surprising claim. sure if this is a gospel about money. what i found was people didn't talk about money nearly as much as expected into. the kind of excitement that they had was that every special detail was given god's attention, not just the kind of guy in into parking space or metallic with a budget, their families, their marriages, their happiness, their promotions, that every little part of their life were worthy of spiritual attention. >> what does that have to do with the prosperity? i mean is it more than just wealth prosperity? >> they would call it a whole life prosperity. i guess in theological terms we would say something like, well, critics will call it a more overly realize, we will see more of the presence of the kingdom of god here on earth when traditionally christians have thought that most of the good stuff happens after we die. >> i'm paraphrasing but what you give, god gives back tenfold? >> the search for the numbers is a tricky one. most of the hard numbers people will get from parts of covenant theology throughout the old testament. there's a few concrete members, three, seven, 100, but people are looking, the desir decipher numbers is mostly a desire to look for a spiritual formula. what is it, where can we find the key that unlocks gods bank? the weather is a number, revolution, some of the apocalyptic literature, that they will try to find formulas. but for the most part prosperity preachers have tried to shy away from numbers come in part because there's a greater sense that though the theologists -- were actually do live in a relatively concrete universe and we can't hamas everyone 100 fold on every return. >> why mega churches speak with i guess mega churches were easy because it was already a database of 1600 or so mega churches that exist in the country. what i could do then was to go through every single one and everything a website and pull them out and make my own list, based on shared rhetoric, shared institutional connection. they tend to go to the same conferences, get accredited, ingres doctorates from the same schools. i figured then if you look and talk and walk like a prosperity document in this case, then i can lump them together on my own. >> did the mega churches become mega churches because they preach this prosperity gospel? >> excellent question. the relationship to fundraising and a large church, they seem to be natural allies in many senses. we will sometimes find a smaller church who takes on a prosperity theology and then becomes a prosperity mega church. but we shouldn't confusemega churches and the prosperity gospel. there are 1600 or so mega churches in the country, and only a minority of the our prosperity mega churches. what's most unusual about the note is they wouldn't dominate the upper tier of churches. the biggest of the big churches in the country preached a message and their influence is enormous. they can be thought of like a top of the pyramid would have all sorts of people under them that preaches. so the message goes far bill which might expect a local preacher to do. >> lakewood church, joel osteen, self-reported attendance 38,000 or that's an average weekly attendance. houston, texas, come world changers ministries, crumpled dollar, 30,000. college park georgia. the potters house t. d. jakes, 30,000, dallas, texas. are those prosperity gospel churches. >> absolute. any of the ones -- helpful shorthand to where to find these churches are all prosperity churches. most of them will make the top 50 of the largest churches in the country. >> all tax-exempt? >> they are entrepreneurial in spirit. the churches themselves are tax-exempt, but what they typically do if they're famous, t. d. jakes has t. d. jakes kerch and t. d. jakes enterprises. is a great example is he's a producer, probably a writer, a film writer and, and there's all kinds of fingers in different pots. >> that's the taxable side of? >> that's right. they will say don't look at me necessary as an example of someone who's taking money out of the coffers. i'm making my money money from this other wing. that is sometimes true for some and it's less true for others. they don't really have to justify how much money they make in part because of the theological infrastructure of moving. all they had to say is look, i did it and i can show you how to do it. more is more and i can show you the way. >> someone who spoke at resident bushes inaugural, kirby john caldwell. 14,000 attendance, houston, texas,. >> one of the big surprises of the prosperity movement and why it took so long to write this book is in or to demonstrate how widespread is where to take into account not just the stereotypical prosperity mega churches which are nondenominational, but some of the denominational ones that in almost every major american denomination we find at least one prosperity mega church. that could include the united methodists, adorable as they are, the disciples of christ pic which is shut up a prosperity mega church somewhere out there. >> when did this prosperity gospel -- first of all, is there a political philosophy to these churches? do they talk politics of? >> they do but it's a kind of subset. you can thin think of them as hg different niches. spiritual warfare guy, you are the prophecy lady, you're the politics viewed. so this will find a john peggy, but to be a subset to overlap with the christian right. but for the most part they don't really need to talk nuts and bolts with politics because god has offered them an end run around the system. what they need to do is get serious about the fate and then doors will open. >> when did this start? >> i think the beginning of the message as bringing up the postwar revival in the 1950s. so these are pentecostals, independent survival as. these are the guys who show up in small towns, put up giant campus people that attract hundreds sometimes thousands of people. in the postwar years these have traditionally been healers, people like oral roberts, anointing in his right hand. these were usually people who came to be healed from all kinds of diseases. but after world war ii we find the number of diseases they need to be healed in this way really -- mass vaccinations. those aren't quite the things we need from preachers. so there's a developing conference that they have, a new book out there that springs up of miraculous bill folds that multiply or see face is a word that comes into term. into use. it's the idea that your money is not just a concrete thing. it's a representation of what could happen. you have to so what into my ministry, and because this is good, it will multiply back to you. this offer different and language of typing which was quite discreet and concrete. tithing was 10% of what you've already earned. seed face asks people to give in order to receive. money multiplies in unseen spiritual universe. this is absolutely innovative, theologically speaking. >> jim and tammy faye bakker. what they prosperity gospel ministers because they were. they were the perfect embodiment of the. i like writing about the fact that they started a kind of christian wonderland instead of a church. they had a very see what god can do playful attitude. tammy faye was always two seconds away from bursting into song at all times. she always had a -- he always had a powder blue suit and a heavy gold watch and a carnival like atmosphere in the own life and marriage. so because of that they were magnetic. they were so fun to watch, and it kind of had a who knows, let's throw open the door spirituals and see what god brings in. >> food to these ministers appealed of? >> we know there's very little good data on the. the relationship to the audience, there's pretty meager resource for us to draw but we do know in the '80s those kind of televangelists such as kenneth a. baker were attracted to this the elderly, the at home of your. but now we can see with the mega church phenomenon this really is a young middle-class phenomenon to everyone thinks this is sad, indigent poor, reaching for the last penny to drop in the cover. but really this is the kind of thing that an aspirational middle-class audience is going to see weekly in order to get practical resources to have to think about their jobs and their marriages and their parenting as the spiritual. >> white, black, latino? >> sure. right now and do nothing on on latino prosperity mega churches and it's overwhelming how many have started in the last tenures. like in the mega churches are the new fresh face on the same because before they were largely constrained to immigrant resources, very small, like small churches with you means but now there like everybody else. they have their own tv shows, their own media platforms. like one of the offshoots for example, robert schuller's church, the christian cathedral. that was a fabulous incarnation of prosperity. anytime you have a church with a river i feel like you have a prosperity gospel. that the latino smaller mega church that became an offshoot called favored day, favored a church, is a latino prosperity offshoot and they have a whole host, at least between three and 5000 weekly attenders to a church like that. >> you teach religion here at duke. what do you teach? >> i teach american religious history. >> what is your religious background? >> i come from a nondenominational mennonite background. >> and you consider yourself a christian? >> i do. >> when you look at these mega churches, what appeals to you? >> i do find sometimes, i guess a sense of expectancy and possibility. especially departure from want of the mainline churches where there expectancy is we run an excellent food program, look how robust are averages in terms of prison ministry. they are very concrete and practical and a lot of excitement but i love the enthusiasm. i love the intensive spiritualizing of details. it gives dignity to every person in a way that really interest me. >> what doesn't appeal to you? >> i think i experienced that sometimes just based on where i sit when i visit these churches. was sitting near the choir, so inspirational to the robes are beautiful. the hands are sweating. it's such an optimistic, beautiful thing. if i sit near the wheelchair section i feel that sometimes struggle to connect to the services. you see people that are so sure that the face has let them down but the bodies are failing them, -- their faith has let them down. their own spiritual inefficacy because they're not yet healed or they are not yet rich. i want faith to be a place where people receive comfort, that we are told maybe not quite yet. and that's not always the message that they are getting. >> the students at the divinity school here at duke, do they admire, do they aspire to be mega church pastors of? >> for the most part they are lovely methodists of a gentle variety, so they are largely, they are stuck with the same kind of mainline problems everybody else's. heavy mortgage churches larger downtown that they can no longer afford to so they are struggling with their own questions of prosperity gospel. what happens if they can't prove in the ministries that things will become bigger and better? what would a decline look like in the rhetoric of faithfulness? i think it's a real challenge. >> mega- churches are growing, aren't they? >> they are. they are, crowded around every urban metropolis. they are a wide open spiritual market, but they really appeal to a certain kind of preacher. you have to be wildly charismatic. you have to have a fabulous head of hair, and you have to have an infectious sense that things always will get better. people are really going to attend the church where your kids might not be a smart, their marriage might falter a little. americans want to hear that things are going to be better tomorrow, and they will avoid the churches that don't. >> do politicians, are they drawn to these large congregations all in one place of? >> absolutely. we see it in a kind of battleground they show up whenever there's a series of mega churches in a battleground state. latina mega- churches folks up in florida are popular with the swing vote. pentecostals that is in a swing state. they can become incredibly effective ways of mobilizing people and getting the message out. >> are the areas of the country where these are aggregated? >> sure. vermont for example, very few. the northeast is not fertile ground. neither is the mountain west. where there are mormons or mountains can you typically find very few. there are very few prosperity mega churches. >> why? >> i think it's in part because of demographics, urban excerpt in population. they were the churches like that at the crossroads of major highways. where we find a big open spaces with major highways and a huge, sprawling population, albeit almost all sun belt cities will be fabulously fertile ground. also just places where people are on the move. so places were hispanics, immigration is on the rise. that's a great, i could tell paper right now whether they should plant churches. there will likely to in the next five years but it's really about immigration, population density is your highways. >> here in north carolina near-term, in the mega churches in this area? >> yes. there are megachurches. there is one prosperity mega church in the area, world over commerce i think. there's one from the 1980s because kind of an amazing story. one of the few prosperity mega churches that was a really urban to it was in a town that the church an had more people than e town it was in. they have a kind of jim and tammy faye appeal with had matching sparkly suit. >> what's the difference between mega church and prosperity mega church? are they teaching different gospels of? >> megachurches have the reputation for being non-denominational, optimistic, things can get better, media savvy. but for the most part megachurches usually, numbers wise, many if not most belong to the nominations and a typical smoker most megachurches really are just barely getting the threshold of 202500. prosperity mega churches on the other hand, i look for four things. i look for faith, a sense that faith is not just hope or trust but it's actually a spiritual power. it is released by believers. it's that invisible thing that goes out into the universe. so how do you know your faith is working? you look for health and wealth to those with other two markers. there's a lot of pentecostal preacher that will preach health but you're only prosperity churches can preach both. the last is victory. victory is a thing that will put an eagle or a spinning globe in every logo but it's the thing that convinces people that things are just about to get better, chin up, eyes on horizon. if they teach those four things that would separate the prosperity megachurch from just an average mega church. >> how important our spouses of? >> extremely. they are the primary litmus test of whether the prosperity gospel is working. no one wants to see a sad man standalone. what they want is a beautiful blonde or at least voluminously haired wife standing beside him. it's also a great way to divide the ministry. the woman can do women and children, and the men into the spiritual heavy lifting of the main prosperity were. that became popular in the 1980s and has become a major trend in almost all churches today. >> two ministers of these prosperity mega churches flaunt their wealth of? >> absolutely. more or less in beautiful ways. there was some flak for advertising that is helicopter needed new plates and asked people to donate. i think the number was $62 per person in order to supply more for that ministry. that struck people as slightly too much. that goes to show you just how far they can go in order to demonstrate that their lives are really marked by god,'s favor. >> sunday mornings, joel osteen for half an hour, just his sermon. what is a full length church service like? >> it will start with some very of taking music by a grammy awards winning singer-songwriter it will have some fog that that's been at least 20 people greeting you before you make away from the concrete parking days into the main sanctuary and a gorgeous enormous building but these buildings are designed to be the most beautiful places that people are every week. so truth and beauty has always been the main appeal of the christian method to they really going for it. >> how long does a full-service last? >> you have about 20 minutes or so of music, and then a mini typing sermon that will typically be done by someone asked people to give with particular understandings of you give and god will reward you with more. than the buckets come out and then the buckets go away. joel osteen will come on and he will preach for a little less than half an hour. and then a spiritual song around it and that's the service. they are really quite efficient. i went to the good friday service. it was in part because i couldn't find any other good friday service at a prosperity megachurch in a decent area, which initially surprised at the if you think it through, they don't need good friday as much as they need easter. good friday, ma what would a good friday served look like at lakewood? i was with a joyfully happy good friday. that kind of a living being, by the third song jesus had died but then was resurrected. quite early on in the service which i think tells you quickly want to rush to the in. they want to rush to the good stuff to sure that jesus has all the cable work so that you get the kind of blessing that god wants to shower on you spent a lot of the mainline churches, some of them like you said, food banks, shut-ins, et cetera. to the prosperity churches have those programs as well? >> fifty. here we can see i think a spectrum of approaches. a hard prosperity is a very instantaneous view of the relationship between faith and reward. you have faith, you'll find yourself almost instantaneously healed and the coffers will begin to be filled. a sauce prosper is going to have a more roundabout gentler appraisal of how the relationship works between faith and your reward. i find it with hard prosperity there'this more of an emphasis n individual social services, bootstraps kind of -- so this will be rather than advocating for example, for education reform, they will give every kid a school bag filled with school supplies. so something catered towards individuals at a family level. the soft prosperity is little more open, especially among black megachurches more open to housing, prison reform, wider macro level structural kind of solutions. though for the most part prosperity gospel tells away from structural solutions because god has already given you everything you need in order to solve these problems. >> what's been the reaction of some of the mega church members to your book, "blessed"? >> i think there's been, i hope that there's been some level of recognition that those are categories that they use and hold dear. i think there will always be worried that anyone is adding the word gospel, prosperity gospel before the word is naturally being skeptical of it. but for the most part the criticism i've gotten is that i'm too nice but i would rather have that i think that is something that people didn't recognize as themselves. >> who says you are too nice? >> almost everyone. evangelicals are not thrilled with me. one called it dangerous for fear that people will read the book and accidentally convert. i just think it's the work of history. charity and humor is our goal and when we try to present things in a way that people would recognize. >> are these churches not evangelical? >> well, the boundaries of pentecostal are quite porous, so we have some the kind of struggle the line between pentecostal and evangelical, but more and more are just straight up evangelical. they wouldn't necessarily espouse the spiritual gift as a part of the theology. i think that's the new frontier for the prosperity gospel is why evangelicalism looks so much like prosperity gospel optimism that it will find it very hard to distinguish itself. >> our prosperity churches considered anti-intellectual by some? >> yes, i think they are. in part because they don't want to play by the same rules. they don't want to go to the same schools or subject themselves to the same kinds of ideas historical debates of where they fall. we should think of them as an actual restoration by pimples. -- where does your message come from, you ask a presbyterian and they will know. you ask a prosperity preacher and they will say it came to me in a dream, or god spoke to me. so it's an erasure of history and in that moment that allows them to all kinds of creativity's. led him to wonder maybe each member of the trinity had their own trinity. that came up tonight and got awkward. the problem was it was in his book at all result millions of copies. and subsequent things he kind of walked that back. he immediately felt sort of like people were laughing at him and that it just kind of them what you want as a kind of playful moment, other people thought of as not following the sort of rules of orthodoxy. >> any of these church ideas, prosperity gospel ideas been exported to canada, mexico, europe? >> absolutely. one of the genius elements, when you ask is this an american phenomena it's so hard to because almost immediately it indigenous to it takes on local farm and flavor immediately. there's a canadian version. it's a little more staid, and the lower, less dancing. dancing. a little dancing. it's fabulously adaptable. there's a ukrainian prosperity gospel. there's an english prosperity gospel and there's a filipino us pretty gospel that is largely catholic. it's wonderfully variable. >> kate bowler is a professor of religion here at duke at the divinity school. she's the author of this book, "blessed: a history of the american prosperity gospel" published oxford. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> booktv is on facebook and twitter. like and follow was for both industry news, schedule updates, behind the scenes look at author events and to interact with authors during live television programming. here are a few of booktv suppose from this past week. we tweeted a "new york times" interview with former supreme court justice john paul stevens, author of the recently published fifth amendmen -- sixth amendme. we posted use of the library of congress about authors attending this years national book festival and an article from the "washington post" about how scanning text online is creating an alternative way of reading. follow us on twitter at booktv and like us on facebook, facebook.com/a booktv. for more news about the world of publishing and what's happening on booktv. >> you've been watching booktv, 48 hours of the program begins saturday morning at eight eastern through monday morning at eight eastern. nonfiction books all weekend every weekend right here on c-span2. .. between comcast and time warner cable. this week joining us is senator al franken, a democrat of minnesota, who is on the judiciary committee. in fact, he's chair of the judiciary technology and the law subcommittee. senator franken -- >> guest: it's privacy, technology and the

Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20130131

but it was an easy choice after doing the diligence on the network itself. they do an excellent job. >> can you see at home how people might think -- >> absolutely. >> he's asking me in my life to make choices about light bulbs and a cost benefit analysis for the purpose of sustainability when i just want to see my book. >> that was a different approach than we took yesterday. welcome, everyone, to "morning joe." good morning. it's thursday, january 31st. with us on set, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu, former democratic congressman, harold ford jr. >> good morning. >> morning. >> professor, wow. >> and in washington, nbc news capitol hill correspondent, kelly o'donnell. willie, good morning. >> good morning, mika. >> how you doing? >> i'm doing great. >> that made me a little uncomfortable. >> why? >> jon stewart was being awfully tough on al gore. >> oh, really? i don't think so. i think he gave him a pass. >> you asked him a couple of questions. >> we asked him the same question. i didn't really get an answer. he kind of went all over the place. it was like major big-picture analysis to the point where you almost find him in the clouds. >> there's not really an answer to that, is there? >> took money from oil to get money for his book. >> i don't mean to say this -- well, i guess i'm just going to say it. it's kind of like jim baker. jim and tammy faye bakker. you know, that sexual morality was at the center of everything he did, and then he gets busted with jessica hahn. i can't believe i remember her name. >> wow, there's so many disturbing thoughts there. >> i used to watch larry king in the '80s. al gore -- i mean, he has been a missionary for climate change, preaching against fossil fuels, and he got 100 million -- what was it, $100 million? >> that's the report. >> $100 million of oil money. it wasn't media money. it's not like they're making money at al jazeera. he got $100 million in oil money. >> so his argument is their coverage of climate change is extremely good, but you know what? i am sure somebody else would have bought his book. so it really -- i have to tell you, it doesn't look good. >> could have bought the network, but $100 million. >> could have bought his own book. i don't know. yeah, i didn't get an answer. i'm not sure it's fair. maybe he's doing something productive with the money. >> i hope so. i hope so. hey, did you see that clown show? >> which one? >> the gun show. >> oh. >> the hearings. the gun hearings. did you see the clown showdown in washington, d.c.? all of these people, all these images of these, you know, little mama with a baby. needs an assault weapon to defend her little babies. and if we don't give them a clip with 30 -- >> these not going to be safe. >> high-capacity magazine, she's not going to be safe. she can't lock and load. >> do you think it would be good if i had a high-capacity magazine? >> no. especially not on 'roids. >> i have a rifle. okay. >> the suggestion, though, that a mom needs a bushmaster to protect her children and her house, we don't give her that with a high-capacity magazine, that somehow we're -- come on. >> we need to show that. >> you're talking about senator lindsey graham. he showed the chart. >> this lady. >> the woman had a gun. she had a .38, six shots in it. he said an intruder comes in, she's in the closet protecting her children, she gets off six shots, five strike the guy, but it wasn't enough to kill him. so that if she had the ar-15 or a semiautomatic weapon, she would have been able to kill him. he fled, she killed, but he's saying she would have been able to kill him, not just strike him down. >> this is just a sick conversation. >> but it's part of -- there's a similar thread to all of this, and it's fear. you listen to wayne lapierre yesterday, it's fear. gun sales are driven by fear. his opposition to background checks is driven by trying to inject fear into the culture. it's all fear based. >> and -- >> i thought mark kelly was the best of all. >> we're going to show all this because there was such powerful testimony on capitol hill. >> did you see it? >> it was great. i got a big laugh out of wayne lapierre. he actually trotted out the survivalist argument. >> i know. i saw it. we're going to show it. >> we might have a hurricane, and then it's going to be like stephen king, zombies. you know, you get three shots into a zombie, seriously. did anybody read "the road"? did anybody read "the road"? has nobody seen "the book of eli"? has nobody seen "the book of eli," really? that gary oldman character, he's scary. and if you just have a glock -- >> okay. >> you won't see a bible. >> no, you are cooked. a street sweeper. >> i need my bushmaster because the zombies are coming after me. there's going to be a tornado. the power grid's going down. locusts are going to descend from heaven. is glenn beck still selling survival seats, willie geist? >> i didn't get the subscription when he went to the new network. he did have those ads on fox but i haven't seen them lately. >> i need survival seats now. >> i'm going to get you some for your birthday. >> i think with every bushmaster that is sold, the nra ought to give coupons to "the book of eli" and get "the road," which is a great book. of course, zombies, people eating people, end of the world-type stuff. >> okay. so we will get to this ridiculous testimony on capitol hill as well as some of the powerful testimony in just a moment. i want to do these other stories first. you have to stay with me here. come on, now. >> they had a bushmaster. they tried to eat them, lock and load. >> what do i do? >> he almost died in the driveway. he almost -- denzel almost died, if he had a bushmaster or anyone -- a rocket launcher -- >> come here, now. it's all right. >> have you seen "the book of eli"? >> i have. it's a great underrated movie. >> you know what else i saw? i just saw it. denzel, man, "flight." >> that's good. that's good. flying upside down. >> there are good movies this year. >> flying upside down. >> including -- >> you know -- >> okay. >> the stewardess had a bushmaster, she could have shot him before he got on the plane. >> now i'm going to do the top story. cut his mike. today the white house is facing a new set of challenges after the commerce department reported yesterday that the nation's economy shrank for the first time since the great recession. >> how did that happen? >> well, government data shows the gross domestic product contracted at a .1% rate in the fourth quarter of 2012. it was the first decline since 2009. it put the white house on the defensive after months of touting steady job growth. >> there's more work to do, and our economy is facing a major headwind which goes to your point, and that's republicans in congress. talk about letting the sequester kick in, as though that were an acceptable thing belies where republicans were on this issue not that long ago, and it makes clear, again, that this is political brinksmanship of the kind that results in one primary victim, and that's american taxpayers, the american middle class. >> okay. what do you think is going on there, joe? >> i think what's going on is that we have spent more money as a government over the past four years than we have in the history of the republic. added $6 trillion in debt. and we have just been on a keynesian spending spree, and the economy's contracting. the idea is, the federal government put some money in, and that's going to create larger job growth across america. it just hasn't happened. so the question is how long do we make this bet? >> robert reich writes about consumer confidence in "the huffington post." "the stock market is bullish because corporate profits are up, costs are down, the fiscal cliff agreement has locked in low taxes for most of the upper-middle class and wealthy, and there's no sign of inflation as far as the eye can see. but corporate profits can't stay high when american consumers whose spending is 70% of the u.s. economy are this pessimistic about the future. they're just not going to spend. american companies won't be able to make up the difference in forward markets. europe is careening into a recession. japan is still in deep trouble. china's growth has slowed. profits are the highest share of the u.s. economy on record. wages are the lowest. but this imbalance can't and won't last. >> can't and won't. and look what's happening on wall street. they're doing better, willie, than ever before. >> mm-hmm. >> ever before. for the past four years, wall street has exploded over the past four years. real income has dropped for middle-class americans. the poverty rate's gone up. one in four americans are on food stamps. you talk about two americas. john edwards is right. >> incomes. >> over the past four years, and it's certainly not the president's fault alone, it's washington's fault, in general. but over the past four years, you just look at the numbers. the rich are getting richer. the poor are getting poorer. wall street's doing great. main street's suffering. >> dow jones hovering still around 14,000, which is a huge number. >> wow! >> if you read reaction to this number that came out yesterday, from economists left and right, by the way, they say don't read too much into it because of what you're talking about, that business investment is on the rise. consumer spending is doing okay. housing is coming back a little bit. so this feels like it's more related to a lack of government spending, cuts in defense spending than it is about some of the important consumer things that we look for in the economy. >> hopefully it acts as a catalyst for congress and the senate to understand that if they get some deal around the fiscal cliff and around spending cuts, sequestration are to come, and two, we invest in things that are growing jobs, particularly energy. i'm just saying this should be a sign to those in politics, don't play with this. there's so many good things. there's a lot of corporate money overseas waiting to come back. profits are up. it's just waiting for that last one or two levers to be pushed. and hopefully we as a country and the congress can do it. >> we want to get kelly o'donnell in on the testimony. for that we go to the testimony that took place on capitol hill yesterday. former congresswoman gabrielle giffords who survived a mass shooting in arizona two years ago made an unexpected appearance before the senate judiciary committee, reading off a page of handwritten prepared remarks. she urged congress to act now on gun reform. >> too many children are dying. too many children. we must do something. it will be hard. but the time is now. you must act. be bold. be courageous. americans are counting on you. thank you. >> that says it all. giffords' husband, mark kelly, says expanding background checks for gun buyers should be a top priority, but the nra's chief executive yesterday, even after that, refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check, which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use, in the case of the tucson shooter, into the system, and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would contend that he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun. if background checks are good enough for somebody who's a federal firearms licensed dealer like walmart, for instance, where i just purchased a gun a couple months ago, a hunting rifle, and i had to go through a background check, why isn't that good for other sales? >> my problem with background checks is you're never going to get criminals to go through universal background checks. i mean, all the law-abiding people create an enormous federal bureaucracy. we aren't going to prosecute any of the bad guys if they do catch one, and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> i don't get that. >> senator lindsey graham and others at the hearing made the case for higher capacity magazines. >> would i be a reasonable american to want my family to have the 15-round magazine and a semiautomatic weapon to make sure if there's two intruders shouldn't run out of bullets. am i an unreasonable person for saying that in that situation, the 15-round magazine makes sense? there can be a situation where a mother runs out of bullets because of something we do here. six bullets in the hands of a woman trying to defend her children may not be enough. >> an assault weapon in the hands of a young woman defending her babies in her home becomes a defense weapon. and the peace of mind that a woman has as she's facing three, four, five violent attackers, intruders in her home with her children screaming in the background, the peace of mind that she has knowing that she has a scary looking gun gives her more courage when she's fighting hardened violent criminals. >> and therein -- >> wow! >> -- lies the problem with having to defend assault weapons. because if you go out and try to defend assault weapons, then you end up looking like a jackass. seriously -- >> i'm sorry, but that's true. >> willie -- willie -- >> that was gail trotter, a gun advocate for the independent women's forum. >> and before that, lindsey graham who said, i am unreasonable to think that a woman needs a high-capacity magazine? rambo in the house. to defend -- come on. seriously? this is so stupid. and wayne lapierre saying, you know, the criminals out there, the criminals out there that aren't going to abide by background checks, so we should just have no background checks. well, why do we -- willie, why do we have any laws on the books? there are terrorists that are going to end up -- >> just let it be the wild west. >> -- in the united states of america. why do we even try to stop al qaeda, right? they say they're going to attack us again. so why don't we let down all of our defenses and just give up? >> one of the problems or the problem, i think, with the story they told over and over again about the georgia woman with the two infants is that she did defend herself. she shot the guy five times, and he left the home. she had a gun with six rounds in it. she was able to defend herself. >> she didn't kill him. >> on your other point about lapierre on the universal background checks, cbs poll shows 92% of americans favor them including 89% of republicans and 93% of gun households, people with guns. 93%. >> willie, these people are such -- wayne lapierre is from the survivalist wing of the nra. and if you're lindsey graham or other republicans that are going to march off the cliff with wayne lapierre, you're a fool. you're going to get what you deserve. and more republicans are going to lose. nobody listened to me. nobody listen to me. and colin powell and other republicans warning about how this extremism is going to cost us in 2012. it's going to cost us in 2014. it's going to cost us in 2016. they can decide. they want to start winning elections again or not? it's stupidity. >> kelly o'donnell, you were on capitol hill yesterday. do you think what we saw in that room over the course of a long day will have impact now legislatively, on the outcome of this whole gun debate? >> well, i think one of the things that's so important about watching that is when you distill it down, you see the theater and extreme points of view, but it's what congress has to work through because these issues are not easy. you can come up with a scenario to give an argument for why an individual -- and i notice that they tended to only speak of women who needed to defend themselves, which, you know, is perhaps an effective argument -- you can find those scenarios. you can do the survivalist thing like after katrina or after the riots in l.a. where there are pockets of anarchy that might exist for a period of a few days in the united states where people might say, i've got to have a weapon. then you've got the heartfelt, emotional testimony of gabrielle giffords and her husband. it's so important to remember, gabrielle giffords is partially blind. she is partially paralyzed. here's somebody who i used to talk to in the hallways, and now you can see her struggle to get those carefully chosen words out. that's a very real example of what can happen. you're also seeing lawmakers who are trying to figure out, okay, if they do something, will it be effective? so part of what you're going to find in the debate is they're going to kind of work through all of these extremes and scenarios to see if they can settle on something that people can agree on, having worked through it. you heard graham say, you know, if we do something, might we end up having yet again a mother who can't defend herself? so part of what you're watching is the sausage making of policy. it's not always pretty. >> no. >> working through it, talking about it to try to get to some answers. it's not going to be easy. >> you know, it's not going to be easy also, harold ford, not just for republicans but for democrats in the senate. you know, we, every night, we tweet out questions to ask, you know, what are your ideas? last night after doing gabby giffords speech, he's from tennessee, i'm a huge fan of his. >> glen reynolds. >> glen reynolds said ask the question about the courage that gabby giffords is asking to be shown. glen said ask that question of democrats in red states that are running in 2014? are they going to have a political courage to do what gabby giffords thinks is the right thing on background checks, on high-capacity magazines, on assault weapons? >> i think it is unlikely that the congress will pass a ban on assault weapons. >> what about these democrats? how hard is it for the moderate democrats? >> speaking specifically of those democrats. i think they will have a hard time voting for a ban on assault weapons. i think willie's point about the background checks and the almost universal support makes it a much easier argument to pass. and two -- >> what about the high-capacity magazines? >> then on these big magazines, i think there's an agreement, a compromise, to be made for those who want to shoot and use those magazines at shooting clubs and while some may hunt with that, keep them there. and if you want to take them out, you have to register in a more serious and comprehensive way than you would checking out a book. i use the library analogy only as a metaphor. it would obviously have to be more stringent. on moderate democrats, put aside for re-election or not, moderate democrats particularly those up for re-election in states where gun culture is pervasive are going to find it easy to support it. in fact, the magazines concern me more than the guns because without the magazines, you can't use the guns the way that some people including myself fear they could be used. >> yeah. >> listening yesterday, i thought mark kelly was the best. it would be great if at some point we could have the ceo of walmart come before the committee. he laid out specifically what they sold at walmart. and walmart sales have not been impacted. lapierre warned of a bureaucracy being created. it would be good to hear from retailers who make money off this and take care of their customers to answer these questions as well. >> they like making the money. i mean, they made so much money since newtown. >> oh, it's unbelievable. >> so much money since those little children were lined up and shot down. >> including the gun shows. >> so sick. coming up -- >> retailers. it's why wayne lapierre is taking an extremist stand. >> captain mark kelly, as you mentioned, will be joining us to discuss his testimony yesterday on capitol hill. also, senator claire mccaskill will join us. and later, legendary music producer tommy mottola and then "the politico playbook" with jim vandehei. first bill karins with the forecast. good job on "way too early." >> not bad, right? >> pretty great. >> you're coming along just fine. >> what part of me did you like the best? >> oh, good god. oh. >> i know which part. >> oh, my lord. >> no, no. damn it! why does he always do that? >> always one step too far. >> at least one step. >> good morning, everyone. new england, we got rocked last night. 60-mile-per-hour wind gusts in boston. actually gusted to 60 miles per hour even at laguardia airport last night. these are the wind gusts, not the temperatures. providence at 47. boston at 51. we're actually watching the winds dying off a little bit now in connecticut. the only really dangerous winds still left, rhode island, providence, boston out to the cape. give it another hour and we'll be done with the wind danger threat. there's snow showers and a lot of cold air over the great lakes. all that white back in pittsburgh and buffalo, you could drive into some blinding snow bands today in ohio, western pa, western new york and areas of michigan. as far as the forecast goes today, again, the rain will be ending in new england. then it will be windy, and temperatures will fall. it will feel like winter by tonight. and look at these temperatures in minneapolis today. that's your high today. it's going to go up to one degree. chicago, only 15. this is days after hitting 60 degrees in chicago. kansas city at 20. and i want to show you these windchills because they have schools that are canceled in many areas of north dakota, south dakota and minnesota this morning. it is negative 39 right now windchill in bismarck. and a place called rolla, north dakota, the lowest windchill i could find, it feels like minus 50 if you step outside on your bare skin. that is extreme weather. days after we get done with marchlike temperatures. so the roller-coaster winter continues across the country on this last day of january. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. this happy couple used capital one venture miles for their "destination wedding." double miles you can "actually" use. but with those single mile travel cards... 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[ all screaming ] watch the elbows ladies. hey, that manti stuff is freaky, mika. did you see "dr. phil"? >> what i would do is leave them alone. >> you say "them." who? manti and dr. phil who? who are these them? >> stop it. >> stop what? >> just leave -- dave zirin's going to be here. >> thank god. he knows all about that stuff. willie, what happened? >> we met the guy on the other end of the phone yesterday. >> he said he was in love. dr. phil said he's in love. >> dr. phil, seriously? we've all jumped the shark. just stop. >> we love dr. phil. by the way, by the way, we need dr. phil just to help us out around here. and by the way, can i just say, if i were living in a post-apocalyptic world, all i would need was my bushmaster and dr. phil. >> you're good. >> right? that's all you need. right, willie? >> yeah. you know what one of the problems is? you know the guy in "terminator 2," the polymetallic alloy? what do you do about that? because he keeps coming at you. he's going to get you. >> he's going to get you. there's nothing dr. phil nor a bushmaster can do. >> no. >> i need lindsey to have a chart for that one. >> oh, i need dr. phil. okay. >> when that guy comes at you, huh? >> he's fast, too. >> ooh! it scares me. what's wayne lapierre going to do about that? >> all right. i'm going to listen to alex. >> listen. it's parody. they're clowns. it was a clown show. >> really? >> it was a clown show. >> let's take a look at "the morning papers." "the washington post," israeli warplanes struck syria yesterday, apparently targeting high-tech weapons which they believe were on their way to hezbollah militants in lebanon. it happened just outside damascus and marked the first attack by israel against syrian targets in some five years. syrian state tv insisted the air strike hit a military research site, not a weapons convoy. "the new york times," chinese hackers have spent months infiltrating the computer systems and trying to gain access to reporter and staffers' information. this according to a new report from "the times." the attacks stem from an article published in october saying that the prime minister had accumulated billions of dollars through business deals. "the los angeles times," wall street is feeling cautiously better about facebook this morning after a surprise fourth quarter. the social media company saw a 40% jump in revenue from the same time a year ago. largely due to successfully integrating advertising into their mobile apps. but the cost of investment in mobile dragged down facebook's profits. and, of course, willie geist, the "daily news" is reporting sex-crazed sarge betted my new york pd hubby, laid to rest. so let's go to "politico" now. >> sounds good. joining us now, the executive editor there, mr. jim vandehei. jim, good morning. >> morning. how are you? >> doing all right. you're taking a look at marco rubio, he's been front and center on this immigration question. you say there may be some potential trouble for him. it is a fraught issue. what's the problem? >> you know, we were talking on the show the other day about rush limbaugh and the interview he had and how much pressure rush and some of the conservatives would put on marco rubio not to embrace comprehensive immigration reform. rich lawry who's the editor of "national review," which is one of the most if not the most influential publication on the right has a column on "politico" this morning where he takes rubio to task and says that the bill that he has endorsed or the framework that he has endorsed is a bad bill, is a bad approach. he's saying it's amnesty, it's granting benefits to people who broke laws. and they're part of the conservative movement that's leading the charge against it. and it just shows the pressure that's going to be on these republicans who want to evolve on the immigration issue but are always very responsive to what's happening at the base which you see playing out in the gun debate. you know, where you have wayne lapierre, you have activists saying they don't want to do anything on guns, and you have republicans in congress reacting accordingly. >> and, you know, kelly o'donnell, not only do you have rich lowry who's the editor of "national review" coming out against it and other conservatives but "national review" itself, all of the editors came out yesterday harshly going against this immigration bill, which suggests -- and you also had dave vitter, david vitter, i think he said rubio was, quote, nuts. >> naive. >> naive. >> naive. maybe he said it's nuts or something like that, but yeah. it looks like the conservatives are starting to push back against this belief that immigration reform is going to happen no matter what. >> well, and you see marco rubio who's been working on this for a long time, sort much making headlines now, but i remember being in meetings with him many months ago where he was trying to figure out a way to make this an area where there could be compromise. so you're finding even in how he's describing it, it's different. for him, he calls it a path to a green card, not path to citizenship. wanting to remind people that citizenship takes many years to achieve. and so he's trying to take a little of the sting out of it by trying to take a more practical approach by just sort of arguing a case for why it matters to business as well as families and sort of the history of the country to be more open to the idea of, as he says, legal immigration that he believes republicans do support. this is thorny for him politically, no question about that. and so it's going to be interesting to watch how this affects sort of his rising star status within the party. he's an effective communicator on these issues. he's got a lot of personal life experience, but he's going to have a lot of selling to do. >> kelly o'donnell's up on capitol hill in the middle of all this. thn thanks so much. appreciate your prv as well as jim vandehei. coming up next, our super bowl picks. our good friend dave zirin joins us, and dr. phil. manti and deer antler spray. we've got a lot to talk about. 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[ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today. here we have a young man that fell deeply, romantically in love. >> does he say that? does he say he fell in love? >> i asked him straight up, was this a romantic relationship with you? and he says yes. i said, are you, then, therefore gay? and he said, well, when you put it that way, yes. and then he caught himself and said, i am confused. >> actually, willie -- >> wait. >> i may actually turn the bushmaster. >> no, no, no. isn't that violating the doctor/patient relationship just a tad bit? >> not if you're not a real doctor. >> he plays a doctor on tv. >> he plays a doctor on tv. >> the guy plays a doctor in an interview with lights. this is all on the record. >> this is really just for show. it's really not real. >> well, it's real for us. we're trying to figure out what's going -- >> great. >> willie, i've got this manti puzzle at home. >> it's starting to come together. >> found one more piece. >> this is starting to get boring. >> fits right in there. >> dave zirin's here, sports editor of "the nation" and author of "game over: how politics has turned the sports world upside down." where are we in the manti -- it was hot and heavy for a week. people kind of lost interest. did we sort of figure it out in that dr. phil interview yesterday? >> when i see dr. phil, i welcome our imminent zombie overlords. >> yes, they're coming. >> it's a preferable future for me. it would be a happier country. less dr. phil, more zombies. where we are with te'o, america has a newer shinier ball to look at, so they've moved on to the next story, which is of course the super bowl in the sports world. >> i thought you were talking about the deer husk spray. >> the deer antler spray? i was in the green room huffing it for hours. >> we actually have it. >> we have an oxygen tank, but we actually -- you breathe that stuff in. >> it's the only way to do morning news. but the manti te'o story, it's still, to me, not being talked about the way it needs to be talked about which is a major crisis in sports journalism. i don't care who he dated, who he didn't date, whether he was in love with a computer or not or tuiasosopo. good pronunciation. >> you've been studying this story. >> the bigger issue is that you still have this thing in sports that the great "new york times" sports writer, what he said, you've god up ad let'ses. you god them up, build them up only to tear them down. look at lance armstrong. if armstrong, god forbid, had died ten years ago, might be named differently. >> we talked about sports before, and we've talked about it, so many of these sports guys, you don't want to call them sports journalists, they kiss up to 18, 19, 20-year-old kids. >> the same thing with tiger woods. a lot of people could have asked a lot of questions, but he was the only game in golf in town for 10, 15 years. to go up against tiger woods was to lose access to tiger woods, and it was a story that everybody could talk about all the time. so i think there's a resistance -- and not everybody, but in some quarters, they don't want to shoot down the great story. >> and you don't know sometimes where the kardashians end and the nba begins in sports journalism. unfortunately what this hides for us is there are huge stories that profound on the country and don't get discussed. that's really what the book is about. like in the last five years, massive economic crisis in the country reflected itself in sports. look at four lockouts just in the last year. the issue of football injuries i think has had a profound effect about how parents see sports, 1 million less kids signing up for youth football. >> you see the president -- >> yeah, the president saying to "the new republic," leading from behind. people have been talking about this for years. and he's coming in on it now. >> one of the huge stories going forward is going to be the economic underpinnings of the national football league. >> exactly. >> all this pending litigation. it could be catastrophic. >> 4,000 former players suing the league including a slew of hall of famers. and what they're raising, it's going to be, like, seriously like a cattle call of testimonies of people who say, you know, i could have predicted losing my hips, losing my knees. i didn't know i wouldn't be able to remember my kids' names, and that's going to be devastating. >> that sounds, willie, like a happy segue into the super bowl this weekend. >> the super bowl this weekend. we know the obvious one -- >> good segue. >> that was good. the obvious story line is the coaches, the two brothers going against each other. what else are you looking at? >> from the political perspective, this is like the lgbt super bowl in some respects. like is america ready for the big gay super bowl? on the ravens' side -- >> excuse me? >> didn't get that? in scarborough country, are they ready for this? >> i don't know if they're ready for it in san francisco. you see what the players said? >> that's what's so interesting. the san francisco 49ers are also the first nfl team to do one of the it gets better ads. the ravens have a player who said openly i'm going to use the super bowl as a place to talk about marriage equality and to talk about anti-bullying campaigns. then the 49ers have a player named chris culliver, one of howard stern's sweaty minions all this anti-gay homophobic stuff. the growth of an lgbt movement in this country has also had a profound effect on athletes, on masculinity, on how people talk about sports. it's really fascinating. the other issue in the super bowl, this is not being talked about, but there's going to be a commercial -- >> are you going to make up another issue? >> this is a real one. there have been, like, actual protests -- actual protests in the streets of d.c. the other one was real, too. this one's real. there's going to be a super bowl ad for a company called tod eed sodastream that's on an illegal settlement in the west bank. there have been protests of showing the ad, protests of people saying no, this is a good thing. this is also going to be a political repercussion in sports. >> sports is political, huh? >> the house is on fire anyway. i'm not the arsonist. i'm just saying look, it's on fire. >> okay, billy joel. >> we got our picks lined up. >> we've got our picked in order. >> we're going to go around the table. i'm taking the ravens for no reason. i've got a friend from baltimore. i like the team. they're gritty, they're old. one last stand for the ravens. >> i like the ravens because of the coach, john harbaugh, a little more smiley-faced than his brother. >> crazy. >> i think they're going to shut down kaepernick. >> i like the ravens because this is colin kaepernick's tenth start of his career. law of averages and ed reed hasn't had an impact game yet, the future hall of fame safety for the ravens, he's due. >> 49ers. >> no reason? >> she doesn't show her work. she just gives you the answer. >> and usually right. >> don't be frightened. >> i'm going with the ravens. >> the 49ers are favored and everybody's picking, the four or five of us just picked the ravens. >> i don't know why you did that. >> you did at the end of the year. >> i saw it in terms of ray lewis' last ride and deer antler spray or not, is he an icon in baltimore. and the whole city's behind him. >> but as we know, ray lewis takes a back seat on sunday to the soda company from the west bank. that'sanybody's going to be talking about on the broadcast. the book is "game over: how politics has turned the sports world upside down." >> great to be here. three months after sandy, we'll visit a community has still very much in need of relief. you'll want to stick around this. keep it on "morning joe." 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[ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do. face time and think time make a difference. at edward jones, it's how we make sense of investing. communities throughout the northeast are still recovering from the devastating effects of hurricane sandy. few communities were hit harder than the rockaways where residents there are still waiting for help. ♪ >> reporter: three months after hurricane sandy devastated the rockaways, linda peavy is still struggling to pick up the pieces. not much has changed since her apartment was flooded and burned to the ground. this is how it looks today. >> it's very sad. it's very hard to walk by here every day. >> reporter: linda, like many other residents, fears that she may be forgotten. >> people who are not living it, it's easy for them to get complacent and forget. >> reporter: local democratic assembly district leader lou simon doesn't feel like enough is being done. >> the local businesses no longer exist here. it's like a bomb's been dropped in our community. and they've got no help outside of -- i can say one group of angels who put their money where their mouth is. >> reporter: graybeard's president is determined to have his community rebuilt. >> i get upset when i hear the word "normal," you know, you back to normal? we are far from normal. >> reporter: the graybeards have become a life line to the rockaway community. >> the graybeards are awesome. they're actually, like, the only ones who really reached out to me to help me. >> reporter: raising nearly $1 million for sandy victims, the graybeards distribute every cent donated to those who need it most. >> we set up our mission statement to help our neighbor in their time of need, and we are certainly fill filling that mission statement right now. >> they asked me why i didn't leave. i know a lot of people are leaving. for me, this is home. >> mika, you look at the scenes. it's just -- >> that's today. >> just today. it's devastating. >> so the woman that we met in louis' piece, when hurricane sandy hit, her son was in afghanistan and is credited with saving her life because they were on -- >> he was on the phone. >> and he told her, get out of the building. and apparently she got out. just incredible. i mean, that area has been hit two or three times in the past few -- well, since 9/11. it's unbelievable. so he also -- her son on the phone instructed her to use wet blankets to reduce the smoke entering the apartment. he was basically machinating her entire road to safety from afghanistan. >> these graybeards are just doing an extraordinary job. >> they really are. >> and they have been a life line to so many people in that community. >> who are feeling a little bit forgotten as life goes on, and their entire worlds are still in complete devastation. >> willie, you've spent a lot of time out there. >> yeah. >> and it was rough in the fall. it's still rough out there. >> and it's everywhere. it's rockaway. you could go down to union beach, new jersey, or new dort beach out on staten island. there was that initial rush the first few days of media coverage and help and relief groups going in. but now a lot of these places are ghost towns. in the weeks and months ahead are when they need help to stay on top of it. >> look at this, louis and clayton went out, and the footage they brought back was just shocking. >> there's a way you can help. joe and i are going to be hosting tonight "relief for rockaway." that's tonight at 6:30 in new york city. if you want to go, go to reliefforrockaway.com. there's going to be an open bar, celebrity guests and basically we're all trying to raise money to help rockaway. >> an open bar. >> well, there you go. barnicle will be there, that's for sure. anyhow. but it's going to be a great event. >> no, it is. >> it's an important event and we urge people to reach out. come to the event or just donate money. help any way you can. still ahead, captain mark kelly is here following his testimony on capitol hill on gun violence. we'll be right back. with the spark cash card from capital one, olaf gets great rewards for his small business! pizza! 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mother runs out of bullets because of something we do here. six bullets in the hands of a woman trying to defend her children may not be enough. >> an assault weapon in the hands of a young woman defending her babies in her home becomes a defense weapon. and the peace of mind that a woman has as she's facing three, four, five violent attackers, intruders in her home with her children screaming in the background, the peace of mind that she has knowing that she has a scary looking gun gives her more courage when she's fighting hardened, violent criminals. >> yeah. top of the hour. >> a beautiful sunrise. >> actually, it's kind of a horrifying start to the day after listening to that. welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and harold ford jr. are still with us. and joining us on set, former foreign policy adviser to the bush administration and former adviser to the romney campaign, dan senor. and joining us from washington, former astronaut, founder of americans for responsible solutions pac and husband of former congresswoman gabby giffords, captain mark kelly. captain kelly testified yesterday at the senate hearing on cushing gun violence, but we also saw others that testified yesterday. >> captain, there were parts of the testimony yesterday that just looked like a freak show. >> not your part. >> you know, i know lindsey and friends, but these arguments are just insane. >> they're stunning. >> and you had, of course, wayne lapierre out there talking about how he was even against background checks, that 91% of americans support. these people are driving my party over the cliff. but your wife, obviously, very moving testimony. >> i don't know how you sat there next to your wife listening to that. >> tell us, what was it like for you yesterday? >> well, by the time the other folks started testifying, gabby was already gone and in a back room and watching on tv. i was extremely proud of her. i mean, for her to get up there, as people can see, you know, this is difficult for her. but she had a message that i think folks really need to listen to. i mean, you know, she's a victim of gun violence. she personally knows what this experience is like not only to her but to her constituents. >> there are a lot of, as you know very well, being in the military, there are a lot of americans that believe in second amendment like i do, believe they have a right to have a handgun to protect their family, a right to have a shotgun, a hunting rifle. but there's this extreme element right now. i call it the survivalist wing of the nra that makes a lot of money from the gun manufacturers. these assault weapons. i'm wondering, you're getting involved. do you think you're going to be able to counter some of the more extremist elements of the nra with what you're doing and trying to get your message out and supporting candidates that support the second amendment but also support reasonable regulation of some of these more extreme assault firearms? >> yeah, absolutely, joe. i mean, when you look at the nra, the membership itself, i mean, 74% of the nra members agree with gabby and i. that there should be a universal background check before buying a gun. those 74% of the members of the nra do not agree with wayne lapierre and the leadership. so, i mean, we've got those folks on our side on this part of the issue. now, it gets a little bit more complicated with assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. but i think we can have a reasonable conversation, some of what you saw yesterday i thought was a very reasonable discussion about the capability of these weapons and the lethality and in my opinion and in gabby's opinion, why they should be really, you know, used in the military. i spent 25 years in the u.s. navy. i've shot these weapons. i've flown in combat. these weapons are extremely effective at killing a lot of people very quickly. and they should be reserved for the united states military. >> you know, mika, i hear that over and over again from my friends that have served in the military. we've heard it from colin powell. we heard it from stan mcchrystal. so many of my friends that have served in the army that have served in the marines say i've used these weapons. i know what they're for. they're for killing a lot of people as quickly as possible. they should be used for killing enemies on foreign battlefields, not for civilian use. >> and we're hearing from general after general that comes on our show and actually has an honest conversation about this, which is what we do here. and they don't see a place for it in our society. and i don't understand -- i had a very hard time listening to the testimony from the nra as well as from -- i think it's gayle trotter, the lawyer who is representing their point of view because it just, to me, is putting us back into a time -- or forward into a time that's very frightening for our society. and they're profiting the nra and the gun lobby off of people's fear and extremism. and there's no other way to put it. >> so let me ask you, captain, you feel like there is a possibility that you will find enough support among republicans for a universal background check in the senate? >> yeah, absolutely. you know, gabby and i are always incredibly optimistic. we're going to work hard to achieve that goal, among others. and there is a lot of indication that -- i mean, from the senators that spoke yesterday on both sides of the aisle, i got a really pretty strong sense that, you know, there is support for universal background checks. maybe not from the nra's leadership, but from congress, from the nra membership. you know, we're not going to agree on everything. you know, gabby and i are both very strong supporters of the second amendment. i don't think you'll find somebody who is a stronger supporter of the second amendment. but in my opinion and in gabby's, some of these things are not really about the second amendment anymore. they're about public safety and protecting your children even in their classrooms. >> captain mark kelly, thank you very much. we wish you the best of luck in your efforts. >> thank you, mika. thank you, joe. >> thanks for being on the show. >> thank you, captain. and please give our best to your wife. what courageous testimony yesterday. >> it was. it was incredible to hear from her. it said it all. it really did, in very few words. this issue, though, we were talking about generals coming forward, colin powell, different people on our show, and politicians who are moving toward trying to get either bans on assault weapons or background checks for stricter regulations on assault weapons. they are paying a political price which shows what divisions there still are in this country over the issue. new york governor andrew kcuomos hard-line stance may be having an effect on his approval numbers. according to a new poll, his approval rating currently sits at 59%, down 15% from his all-time high approval rating which he achieved just last month. cuomo's numbers have dropped even further among gun owners. just 40% of people in gun-owning households approve of the governor's job performance. >> so dan, herein lies a problem for any politician that wants to come out certainly and be as aggressive as andrew cuomo. nobody in washington is going to be that aggressive. but you look at numbers, the background checks, banning high-capacity magazines, those are very popular. some polls show even banning assault weapons are 60/40 propositions now. but it's going to be tough -- let's put the republican house aside. let's just talk about harry reid's democratic senate. >> right. >> it's going to be tough passing a lot of these gun-control measures, and i predict by the end, immigration, even through harry reid's democratic senate. >> on gun control, it's interesting. when you look at how harry reid talks about immigration versus how he talks about gun control, yesterday in "the new york times," he says on gun control, he says the senate will consider legislation that addresses gun violence. not he. he won't take the lead on it. the senate will consider. on immigration, he says that i will work tirelessly to make reform a reality in the senate. so there is a commitment, i believe, among democratic leaders on immigration reform. i'm not convinced there's a commitment at least with the senate majority leader on gun control. there's a number of democratic senators on red states who are up for re-election in 2014. it will be interesting to see how far they are willing to go on some of these gun-control measures. >> i don't think they're going to certainly -- i don't think they're going to be willing to go as far as the assault weapon ban. i just don't. certainly i think they're going to support the background checks. i think high-capacity magazines are somewhere in the middle. but you start moving towards assault weapons, i think it's going to take more campaigning, and i think it's going to take more time until that 60% goes to 70%. and it will. by the way, let me just say, this is a matter of time. history is on the side of people that want to take the most extreme weapons off the streets. we as a civilized society are moving in that direction. >> but once the details of the legislation begin to get fleshed out beyond just principles, this stuff gets really complicated. we were just talking about immigration. that's exactly what happened. look at last week -- the debate last week on immigration reform versus this week. this week you had real specifics beginning to come out. >> right. >> from this bipartisan group in the senate. and suddenly you begin to see the right backlash against immigration. >> you said it looks like we're going sideways on immigration. that certainly would be good for some conservatives in conservative districts, but you know, better than anybody else, what it means for republican presidential candidate if your candidate, mitt romney, had gotten the same percentage as george w. bush among hispanic voters, we would be talking about -- well, you wouldn't be here. i'm dead serious. >> you'd be in the white house. >> you'd be working in the white house with mitt romney. that's what losing this volt me vote means, and marco rubio is starting to take a lot of heat from his own party. let's first listen to -- actually, mika, you want to go ahead? >> yeah. he's got the heat from his participation in the senate's gang of eight immigration plan at question, rubio's push for new immigration enforcement mechanisms. and on the radio yesterday, republican senator david vitter from louisiana called rubio's approach "amazingly naive and ridiculous." vitter also said rubio is, quote, nuts if he doesn't think legal status offers a pathway to citizenship. >> and "the national review" editorial board wrote in an op-ed called "the pointless amnesty," dan. and they say this. "if we are to take hispanics at their word, conservative attitudes toward illegal immigration are a minor reason for their voting preferences. take away the spanish surname and latino voters look a great deal like other democratic constituencies, low-income households headed by single mothers and dependent upon some form of welfare are not looking for an excuse to join forces with paul ryan and pat toomey, given the size of the hispanic vote, it would help democrats significantly to lose it by smaller margins than they have recently. but the idea that an amnesty is going to put latinos squarely in the gop tent is a fantasy." dan, that sounds an awful lot like 47% rhetoric. >> it's worse. it's racist. >> this is an incredibly corrosive way to start the debate. in the '90s, i was working for a senator who was the chairman of the subcommittee on immigration reform. we tried to have this debate in the mid-'90s. we were lone soldiers in the republican conference. we argued that for too long the debate on immigration had been centered around the burden that our country makes and takes and holds and carries because of immigrants. it was purely about the negative immigration. we said why don't we start the discussion about the positive contributions immigrants make to this society? immigrants are the ultimate entrepreneurs. their whole lives are entrepreneurial. they know how to face adversity. they have to start anew. they build things. they come here to create jobs. let's start with the contributions. >> and harold, you look at that editorial. i don't know who wroelt it fte "the national review," but you say it's racist. >> i think there's some strong racial undertones there. look, if there is where a wing of the republican party is now, i say a wing, honestly, then not only does it look less and less likely that we'll find some agreement on this issue, it is mind boggling to me just as you analyze it from a narrow political sense how a party who lost so miserably with a group of people would lump an entire population of immigrants into and try to define them so narrowly and so cruelly as that editorial did. look, i think immigration reform would be hard even amongst some democrats. but if this is where we start, i actually think it's helpful to the issue if this is where "the national review" wants to be because i think you'll find some moderate republicans and even those moderate democrats wanting to come around on something that allows some path, whether it's citizenship or green card or however you choose to define it, this is good for democrats, and i think it ultimately may be good for the issue. >> let's go to mike. put "the national review" editorial in. i've got a lot of friends over there. it sounds like short-term thinking to me, at best, if we want to win presidential electio election. >> can i ask a question? off of what you said about gun control, that it's just a matter of time. if you lump these two issues together, immigration and gun control, it would seem to most people that both elements, immigration and gun control, is just a matter of time before something happens to improve the situation. but the question is, these two issues taken together with regard to the republican party, and democrats have their own issues in the senate, but with regard to the republican party, does individual ideology, does the threat of getting primaried from the right in various congressional districts and perhaps in senate contests that are going to be up, does the quest for success by being on the really right side of immigration and gun control, ideologically speaking, does it threaten terminally the prospects for national success for the republican party? >> i don't think there's any doubt. >> i think it does. dan, i think it does. dan, does it? >> i believe it does. whoever's our nominee for president in 2016 is not going to be successful if this -- the immigration issue -- is not addressed. now, i'm not saying it's sufficient. i'm not saying our nominee's guaranteed to be successful if the immigration issue is addressed, but it's necessary. it's a necessary but not sufficient thing that needs to happen. >> dan, let me ask you a question here. your candidate, mitt romney, our party's nominee, mitt romney, went so far right on immigration in iowa, and for a reason, for a reason, because he knew that people with the most extreme views on immigration were going to get out and vote in primaries for him. >> yeah. >> so what does that say about the republican party that you have to stake out a position on immigration in january that dooms you in november? and it did with mitt romney. it doomed him. >> i actually think that the one body that can address this for republicans and improve -- head off the nightmare scenario that mike has spelled out are congressional republicans. if we're having this debate in january of 2016 in the context -- in the frame of a presidential primary, we're done. congress has to address it, and it has to be addressed in the next year or two. the problem is, the incentives for members of congress to address it are different than a presidential candidate because they are more worried, many of them, not all of them, some of them are more worried than a primary challenge than they are a general election fight. >> wait for the phone calls, though. wait for the phone calls when some groups on the far right just ginning this up and start talking about what we're hearing right now, whether it's from rush limbaugh for "the national review," and those calls are going to start coming in 10-1 against immigration reform, and house members are going to vote against immigration reform. >> here's the one sliver of good news. and you've seen this, too. republicans and conservatives, there are more of them today open on this issue than they were two or four years ago. the republican fund-raising community is more engaged on this than they were in the past. conservative opponents of immigration reform are going to start hearing from their donors, not just the grass-roots activists. if you look at the crop of people thinking about running for president in 2016, whether it's marco rubio or chris christie or bobby jindal or paul ryan, jeb bush, you look at all of them actually have what i call opportunity society conservative views on immigration. so they're not sort of the part of the, you know, the extreme right on these issues. they have a very sort of reaganesque outlook on the need for immigration reform. so i think you take the group that's sort on the bench in 2016 or the possible bench -- >> that's the bench? >> i mean, these are the names that are being talked about. what's interesting is that all of them are all high profile right now and open-minded on this issue, if not actively for it. i think the fund-raising community is excited about it and people in the conservative movement are more open on it than they were in the past. now, this can go sideways very quickly. and you're seeing the beginnings of people trying to make it go sideways over the last couple days. >> dan, stay with us, if you can. still ahead, cnbc's tyler mathisen will help us break down yesterday's surprising report on economic growth and what pushed down gdp for the first time in years. also, an exclusive first look at the new cover of "time" magazine which investigates america's go-to technology in modern warfare. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 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(announcer) make mornings special, mornings are delicious protein rich entrees with garden veggies and egg. fancy feast mornings. the best ingredient is love. there's more work to do, and our economy is facing a major headwind which goes to your point, and that's republicans in congress. talk about letting the sequester kick in as though that were an acceptable thing belies where republicans were on this issue not that long ago, and it makes clear, again, that this is sort of political brinksmanship of the kind that results in one primary victim, and that's american taxpayers, the american middle class. >> okay. so, joe, tyler was reading "cosmo" last night. >> that's kind of disturbing. >> yes. >> it's the first thing he says when he walks in the door. i was reading "cosmo" last night. here with us now, cnbc's tyler mathisen. >> it said "mad sex," i just wanted to read it. >> so mika's in there talking about it. >> mika has a column in there. >> just for the record, i signed up for the column because i thought we could reach young people. >> and you're doing it. >> then i look at the magazine, and you're right. >> it was life tips. and the one that i followed was if you're going to get up early in the morning, you can't stay out and go drinking the night before. so i followed that advice this morning. >> looking good. >> i'm feeling better than normal. >> looking much better than the economy. looking better than the economy. >> i find it -- you should check it out. >> absolutely. >> apparently you did. okay. >> what's going on with the economy? i mean, three years, four years later after spending trillions of dollars and running up $6 trillion more in debt, one stimulus program after another, we actually have a downturn. >> you know, i woke up yesterday morning, i turned on news radio here in new york city, and i heard that the economy was down a tenth of a percent. and i thought immediately that that meant that the economy had fallen from a 3.1% rate to a 3% rate in the fourth quarter. but no, the economy actually slipped as that headline says into reverse. it's down a tenth of a percent. i don't think anybody suspected that. no, nobody expected that. i think they expected maybe it was going to slow down a little bit with hurricane sandy, with some of the other things that were going on. but that was really a shocker. and it shows how fragile the economy is. and while i might take exception with jay carney, i don't think the headwind that the economy faces is republicans in congress. >> no. that's ridiculous. >> the headwind the economy faces is finding a path to sustainable growth. that's the problem in america. >> and the problem -- >> growth. >> -- the problem is -- and i understand some of the keynesians are going to be offended by this, but we have heard for four years now that if you just keep throwing more money at the problem from the top down, i call it trickle-down, you know, federalism, just throw as much money from the federal government down, that's somehow going to get the economy growing instead of growing it from the bottom up, and we keep hearing that there's trillions of dollars on the sidelines. they're just waiting for washington to get their act straight before they reinvest in the economy. >> well, they do want some consistency and some certainty, i think the people in the private sector who want to invest money, but make no mistake. we've been throwing money at the economy for a long time. and just yesterday the federal reserve said that they're going to continue buying $85 billion worth of securities every month, and that just puts cash into the economy. the problem, i think, with the economy is that we've tried to substitute debt for real growth. we've tried to borrow our way to prosperity. and the fact of the matter is we haven't had real income growth. we haven't had real wealth growth. what we've done -- and real wealth is wealth you don't have to repay. and so the fact of the matter is i think we've borrowed way too much, and that has to stop. >> just on income -- >> and we're still borrowing. we just keep borrowing, mika. wait, mika, go ahead. >> thank you. incomes are going down, part-time jobs. >> yes. >> it's just-- it's not a living. >> there has been very little income growth as folks at this table and around the country know, particularly for american male workers since the 1970s, frankly. there has been -- >> the average wage -- >> is lower. >> -- for males in america has been going down since 1973. you look over the past four years, since we've sunk $6 trillion more into debt, you have household income going down in real dollars going down, poverty going up. again, i hate to keep saying this, and dan, we'll let you jump in here, but you're not going to get the economy going in a sustainable way by just continuing to pile up debt and doing it from the top down. you always have liberals talking about trickle-down economics. this is the ultimate trickle-down economics where they think they can spend trillions of dollars in washington, d.c., and the good results will trickle down. >> yes. >> to the rest of americans. it doesn't work that way. >> i heard this very amusing formulation about presidents' second terms throughout history. and they basically summed it up this way. in the first year of a second term, they try and do something big on the economy. typically doesn't work. in the second year, they're already in midterms, third year, try to do middle east peace, doesn't work. and fourth year they're pardoning their friends. so we're in year one right now. it doesn't look very promising that we're going to get a deal which means we could be going through the next four years without any serious reduction in the deficit and the debt. so we could be looking at the picture we're at, and we'll be staring at it in 2015 and 2016. and it will only be worse. >> i think there's a relatively stronger argument for putting money, federal money, into the economy. when the economy is really in crisis. but i don't think we're any longer really in an economic crisis. we're in a period of slow growth. we have a major challenge in trying to find sensible ways to spark economic growth and get us going into the 21st century economy. i think that's the real issue. >> harold. >> in fairness to jay carney, we were growing at 31.% in the third quarter. we dropped negative, 0.1%. congress certainly can play a role. the fact that we've had this shrinkage in federal spending has impacted the economy. i'd agree, we've substituteded debt for wealth creation. but at the same time government has to play a role. my point has been echoed on this show many times, real tax reform, real entitlement reform, predictability, consistency, certainty will create, i think, more opportunity for business skprechlt frankly may allow the energy sector, the health sector to really grow. >> and declined as much as it drks which wasn't a huge decline but it fell off, was the drying up of federal spending. that was one of the major contributors in that fourth quarter to why the economy went from a 3.1 growth rate to a negative 0.1% growth rate. when you think austerity doesn't affect gdp, it does. it collides with it. >> here's a clip, we want to talk about your documentary from tyler's new cnbc documentary about the death care industry. it's entitled death: it's a living. >> what is the most expensive of the places to be buried here at maple grove? right there. >> $150,000. >> in this -- >> yes. >> -- monument here. >> this monument here. you're paying for the monument. >> so $150,000 to be on this side. >> yes. >> $150,000 to be on the other side? >> on the other side. >> and on each of the flanks? >> $75,000. >> and how many bodies would go here? >> right here, six. six bodies would go here. >> a condo, then. >> that's a condo. yes. >> but you haven't sold any? >> no, i conveniehaven't sold n. >> they're not dying to get in. >> no. not $150,000, no. >> my goodness. you can catch "death: it's a living" tonight at 9:00 p.m. >> talk about it, tyler. >> it is a living. >> we went to a large cemetery in queens, new york. we went along with a woman who was buying a funeral plot for herself. i thought it was kind of funny because she said i want a place with a view. think about that. i want to be able to see the water. i'm sorry? think about that. >> you're going to be -- yeah. >> you're not going to be there. we found lots of very interesting things in the documentary that will air tonight on cnbc including coffins, caskets that have the ability to play your itunes in case you want to go to sleep. >> really? >> and coffins, by the way, that are one-third -- if you live in a double wide, you can get a double-wide coffin because we're getting bigger in america. in case you haven't noticed. all kinds of fascinating facts. >> that's insane. tyler mathisen, thank you so much. >> good to be with you. >> and reading "cosmo," the stuff you learn between those covers, my man. >> i love "cosmo." read my column in "cosmo." >> i do. >> yes. still ahead, a look at the technology that transformed the way wars are fought. we're going to go inside the new issue of "time" straight ahead on "morning joe." mika, we've got to talk about "cosmo." >> we need to have polls on the show. >> we will, very soon. >> okay. i love it. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers. sven gets great rewards for his small business! how does this thing work? oh, i like it! 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[ male announcer ] in a clinical study, over 80% of treated men had their t levels restored to normal. talk to your doctor about all your symptoms. get the blood tests. change your number. turn it up. androgel 1.62%. welcome back to "morning joe" at 39 past the hour. the sun just coming up over washington. a pretty day. joining us now, "time" magazine managing editor rick stengel who's here with the latest issue of "time." wow! >> wow! >> "the rise of the drones." >> "the rise of the drones." i feel like i should sing that. it's about this ancient but now transformational technology that's changing the way we wage far. >> flying anonymously. >> now they're becoming domestic objects. everything from the little helicopter that my son flies at home with a camera on it to places that, you know, police departments are using it, border patrols are using it. i bet farmers are using it, insurance companies are going to start using it. >> so are we going to start seeing drones flying over chicago and other major american cities? >> yes. in fact, one of the little-known things is the obama administration during his first term had petitioned the faa to have unmanned aerial vehicles which is technically what drones are called to make more space in the civilian airways for them. it's a gigantic growth industry that has many civilian applications. >> what are the civil applications especially when it comes -- obviously, we remember back in the '80s, '90s especially across l.a., helicopters, police helicopters constantly flying over that city. is that what we can expect? >> yes. police use them now. you know, there have been examples of criminals who have been caught because a drone is following them. the border patrol uses them all along the mexican border. >> you say police. how widespread? >> it's not very widespread. the number of actual approvals for big civilian drones is actually quite small. i mean, they are expensive, but of course, they're less expensive than using a manned vehicle. it's going to start growing. and of course, as you can shrink them, and they have this camera now that from 20,000 feet you can see something, you know, as small as six inches. >> oh, my gosh. >> they're going to be very, very -- used in a very wide way. and of course, there are privacy issues, right? drones have been used by the police to see, for example, whether you're growing marijuana in your backyard. but then you could have a little drone outside your window to see if you're smoking it in your bedroom, too. >> good lord. >> the supreme court has allowed, in fact, a plane to observe whether you're growing maybe in your backyard. there will be 14th amendment issue. >> moral issues. >> that will be interesting. >> you've written often about some of the moral issues. >> there's going to be one other joe's head. >> there's one right now. >> in a military context, there's been some controversy, moral issues and questions. >> absolutely. >> i am a firm believer and supporter of using drones more so than humans in putting u.s. military personnel at risk. and again, we've been on this show and had this conversation. it would seem to me if you look at the success rate, and dan, you can speak to this probably as well as anyone on the panel, the success rate far outweighs any other concerns, i would imagine, surpasses -- when you look at costs, more importantly, human costs, financial costs, and granted, using it domestically, there will be a number of questions. and i respect that. >> and president obama is the drone president, basically. he's using it -- the technology way more than george bush did. but there are legal issues. there are international law issues. why wouldn't a foreign power use drones over here to someone that, you know, that their court says is a terrorist who's operating in the united states? what prevents, you know, an enemy from using drones? >> sovereign nations, governments around the world have very established first-world intelligence-gathering capacity. they use it against us. they use it against our allies. and if this is the new world, they'll be using these. >> yes. >> it won't just be wiretapping embassies. they'll be using those. >> or hacking computers. >> and they'll be looking for dan senor, too. >> let's talk about the down side of drones. it also allows us to go as a country into nations, sovereign nations, where we haven't declared war. >> yes. >> drop bombs on people that we consider to be the bad guys. but also kill a lot of civilians. >> and that's what's happened in pakistan. >> and it's happened in pakistan. and the long-term impact -- i've said here -- the long-term impact of indiscriminately dropping, you know, bombs on civilians to kill terrorists. >> right. >> has long-term implications for us. we're going to be paying for as a country for decades to come. >> there's a short-term benefit, but the long-term consequences that people not liking americans are feeling that america isn't back to predator nation. >> it's beyond that. you kill my 4-year-old daughter, i don't just not like you. >> yeah. >> i spend the rest of my life trying to destroy you. and that's happening. again, it's not just happening in countries where we have declared war. we're now going into country after country after country. and i guess, rick, what i don't understand is where are the civil liberties lawyers, the constitutional lawyers that were so concerned during the bush administration, for good reason, about how far we push the boundaries in the war on terror? where are those people now that we are killing innocent civilians across the world? >> well, we're still using the post-9/11 authorization bills to allow and justify the use of drones abroad. drones in afghanistan are done by the military, but drones elsewhere like in pakistan, that's a covert action. that's overseen by the cia. >> you voted for these things. >> it's also a very clinical way -- >> i didn't vote for this. >> it's a very clinical way for the president -- no, no, but the reality is for the president to sit in his oval office and approve something like this has nothing comparable to what it's like to make a decision about deploying men and women into battlefield. it feels safe, distant and clean and the reality is it's incredibly complicated for the reasons you're saying. >> and the blowback for years to come is going to be great. >> none of these decisions are easy. >> for people who think that this is clean and sanitary -- >> they're not. >> they need to talk to people that are actually on the ground. >> exactly. >> in pakistan and afghanistan and some african nations where we're starting to drop drones. again, killing civilians in countries where we haven't even declared war. >> even president obama has said it gives you the illusion of a kind of purity that you don't have blood on your hands. of course, you do. >> him looking at the faces before he pulls the trigger on the concept. okay, the new cover is "the rise of the drones." rick stengel, thank you. >> a morning pick-me-up. >> you've got to read it because it's fascinating, even big real estate agents are using drones to fly over their properties and get -- no, i'm dead serious -- >> get pictures. >> -- to get pictures and video of the properties they're trying to sell. i mean, the commercial used for this in the united states is pretty remarkable. >> go to our blog. the show blog where we explore how the cia's drone program might change if john brennan is confirmed as the agency's next director. that's at mojo@msnbc. rick, thank you. more "morning joe" in just a moment. but we can still help you see your big picture. with the fidelity guided portfolio summary, you choose which accounts to track and use fidelity's analytics to spot trends, gain insights, and figure out what you want to do next. all in one place. i'm meredith stoddard and i helped create the fidelity guided portfolio summary. it's one more innovative reason serious investors are choosing fidelity. now get 200 free trades when you open an account. yeah we both relieve coughs, sneezing, aches, fevers. and i relieve nasal congestion. overachiever. 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[ male announcer ] upgrade to the new "done" with access to the fastest push-to-talk and three times the coverage. now when you buy one kyocera duraxt rugged phone for $69.99, you'll get four free. other offers available. visit a sprint store, or call 855-878-4biz. standing here at this desk that once belonged -- at that desk that once belonged to president kennedy and to ted kennedy, i can't help but be reminded that even our nation's greatest leaders and all the rest of us are merely temporary workers. i'm reminded that this chamber is a living museum, a lasting memorial to the miracle of the american experience. >> senator john kerry yesterday, getting emotional during his final address on the senate floor. kerry ended a 27-year senate career after getting confirmed to replace hillary clinton as secretary of state. tough questions are expected at today's confirmation hearing for chuck hagel. the president's nominee to be the next secretary of defense. hagel is expected to offer his views on the deep budget cuts facing the pentagon, if lawmakers are unable to avoid sequestration. on iran, the former senator has told congress in written remarks that meddle be prepared to strike that country if necessary, but stressed the need to be cautious and certain when considering the use of force. vice president joe biden yesterday defended hagel and john kerry from critics who say they're concerned the president's new national security team would be hesitant to act. >> to suggest that two war heroes won the bronze star, purple heart, silver star, taking over both the state department and defense is a -- or whatever the phrase was -- is ridiculous. >> all right. so, fortunately, on john kerry's senate career in that moment, moving on, i just watched you watching barnicle, and i was wondering what you were thinking, given him. >> you know, i tell you what i was thinking. i was thinking that it's very rare for senator kerry to show public emotion. i've seen him do it on one other occasion, at a funeral service, where he eulogized a young guy who served with him in vietnam. he broke down on the altar. we saw him break down yesterday. obviously, part of it is because his senate career has concluded, but part of it is because of the relationship that he had and forged over his time in the senate with ted kennedy. they became very, very close with one another. >> and dan seymore, looking ahead to chuck hagel and testimony in the confirmation process, still have, i'm sure, deep concerns. >> yes. but what's interesting if you could contrast kerry and hagel, there's this myth out there the senate is this club, and these guys, males and females, just take care of one another. and the reality is, if you look at the contrast between each one of hagel and kerry's received, kerry passed, was confirmed in the senate by 96 senators. an amazing number, overwhelming support. hagel is, shall we say, cruising upstream, because of big differences that people have with him upon iran, on israel, on the defense budget, on a whole range of issues, on syria. so they're not just saying, hey, you're one of ours and we're going to be with you, like they did with kerry, they're saying, we have real fundamental differences with you and you'll have to explain them. hagel has said his views have changed. i think he'll get tough questions today. when did they change and why kid they change. >> and he deserves to have those questions asked. i think he'll answer them all sufficiently. we've had this conversation on air. i hope he is confirmed. i don't think he'll get the 96 votes, but i think he'll surprise you in the big majority that he eventually gets, if he answers those questions well, which i have confidence he will. >> i agree with you, the vote will surprise you, i think. >> i -- well, i think in either scenario, given the resistance he has met so far, and even if it's a confirmation but not a big number, i think he will be a very weak secretary of defense, and a number of the issues related to the pentagon will ultimately be run out of the west wing. >> but part of the opposition to him, i would have to say, even looking at it from a neutral point of view, has been offensive. to be labeled as an anti -- >> let's talk about this, this is important. the supporters of senator hagel, many of them, cite his positions on iran, why he'd be this great independent voice. they cite his positions on israel. they cite his positions on hezbollah and terror groups and all these other matters. why is it okay for his supporters to cite those issues, the very votes, right, like when he was one of two senators to vote against sanctions against iran, some people think that's a good thing. when people say, you know, it's independent and free wheeling speaking when he says that the israeli israelists kept the palestinians penned up like animals. but the opponents can't say, you want to raise those issues, we think it speaks to his judgment. i think there's fundamental problems with the things he said and voted on. >> i have no problem with that critique you just outlined. but i have a problem with extracting his positions and labeling an individual anti-semitic. >> i'm not for labeling people anything. i'm simply saying, many of the criticisms is, what speaks the to judgment? what is the judgment that led a man to vote this way and say the things that he said? and that's certainly fair game for a hearing. that's my view, at least. >> and we'll have more views coming up, because coming up in just a few minutes, senator claire mccaskill, part of the committee considering chuck hagel's nomination will join us. and up next, the gun control debate. former congresswoman gabby giffords calls for reform while a top senator says six bullets in a gun just might not be enough. we'll be back in a moment. hey! did you know that honey nut cheerios has oats that can help lower cholesterol? and it tastes good? sure does! ♪ wow. 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all of these people, all of these images of these, you know, little mama with a baby -- >> well, that's true -- >> -- needs, you know, needs an assault weapon to defend her little babies. and if we don't give them a clip with 30 -- >> she's not going to be safe. >> she needs a high-capacity magazine or she's not going to be safe. she can't lock and load. >> do you think it would be good if i had a high-capacity magazine? if i owned one? in my pickup truck. >> i have a rifle, but -- okay. >> but the suggestion, though, that a mom needs a bushmaster to protect their children in her house and if we don't give her that with a high-capacity magazine that somehow we're -- come on! >> we need to show that. >> you're talking about senator lindsey graham. he showed -- >> this lady. >> the woman had a gun, she had a .38, had six shots in it. she said an intruder comes in, she's hiding in the closet, protecting her children, she gets off six shots, five strike the guy, but it wasn't enough to kill him. if she had the ar-15 or another semi-automatic weapon, she would have been able to kill him. he fled, he lived, she wasn't assaulted in any way, but he's saying she would have been able to kill him, not just strike him down if she had an assault rifle. >> this is just a sick conversation. >> but there's a similar thread to all of this and it's fear. you listen to wayne lapierre yesterday, it's fear. gun sales are driven by fear. his opposition to background checks is driven by trying to inject fear into the culture. it's all fear-based. >> i thought mark kelly was the best of all the presenters -- >> we're going to show all of this. there was such powerful testimony on capitol hill. >> did you see it? >> yeah, it was great. it was great. i got a big laugh out of wayne lapierre. he actually trotted out the survivalist argument. tornado -- >> we'll show it. i have another story first. >> then it's going to be like a steven king novel, like "the stand," and zombies. you know, you get three shots into a zombie -- >> stop it! >> seriously! did anybody read "the road"?! did anybody read "the road"?! has nobody seen "the book of eli"?! really?! that gary oldman character, he's scary. and if you just have a glock -- >> okay. >> you won't save the bible! >> you are cooked. you're a street sweeper. >> you need -- i need my bushmaster, because the zombies are coming after me. >> cut his mic. today the white house is facing a new set of challenges after the commerce department reported yesterday that the nation's economy shrank for the first time since the great recession. >> how did that happen? >> well, government data shows the gross domestic product contracted at a 0.1% rate in the fourth quarter of 2012. it was the first decline since 2009. it put the white house on the defensive after months of touting steady drop growth. >> there's more work to do and our economy is facing a major headwind, which goes to your point, and that's republicans in congress. talk about letting a sequester kick in, as though that were an acceptable thing belies where republicans were on this issue not that long ago and it makes clear, again, that this is political brinksmanship of the kind that results in one primary victim, and that's american taxpayers, the american middle class. >> okay. so what do you think is going on there, joe? >> i think what's going on is that we have spent more money as a government over the past four years than we have in the history of the republic. added $6 trillion in debt, and we have just been on a keynesian spending spree. and the economy is contracting. the idea is, you get the federal government to put some money in, and that's going to create larger job growth across america. it just hasn't happened. so the question is, how long do we make this bet? >> so robert reich writes about consumer confidence, found this in "the huffington post," why consumers are bumd out. "the stock market is bullish because corporate profits are up, costs are down, the fiscal cliff agreement has locked in low taxes for most of the upper middle class and wealthy, and there's no sign of inflation, as far as the eye can see. but corporate profits can't stay high when american consumers whose spending is 70% of the u.s. economy are this pessimistic about the future. they're just not going to spend. american companies won't be able to make up the difference in foreign markets. europe is careening into a recession. japan is still in deep trouble. china's growth has sloat wed. profits are the highest share of the u.s. economy on record, wages are the lowest. but this imbalance can't and won't last." >> can't and won't. and look what's happening on wall street. their doing better, willie, than ever before. ever before. the past four years, wall street has exploded over the past four years, real income has dropped for middle class americans. the poverty rate's gone up. one in four americans are on food stamps. you talk about two americas, john edwards is right. over the past four years, and it's certainly not fthe president's fault lalone, it's washington's fault in general. but over the past four years, you look at the numbers, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, wall street is doing great, main street is suffering. >> dow jones hovering around 14,000, which is a huge number. if you read reaction from this number that came out yesterday, from economists left and right, by the way, they say, don't read too much into it because of what you're talking about. that business investment is on the rise, consumer spending is doing okay, housing is coming back a little bit. so this feels like it's more related to a lack of government spending, cuts in defense spending than it is about some of the important consumer things that we look for the in the economy. >> hopefully it acts as a catalyst for congress and the senate to understand that if they get some deal around the fiscal cliff and around the spending cuts, sequestration to come, and two, we invest in the things that are growing jobs and growing wages, particularly energy, we'll have a natural gas explosion -- >> are you going to make a point? >> i'm just saying, this should be a sign to those in politics, you know, don't play with this. there's so many good things. there are a lot of corporate money overseas waiting to come back, profits are up. it's just waiting for that last one or two levers to be pushed. and hopefully we as a country and the congress can do it. >> we want to get kelly o'donnell in on the conversation, and for that we go to the testimony that took place on capitol hill yesterday. former congresswoman gabrielle giffords, who survived a mass shooting in arizona two years ago, made an unexpected appearance in front of the senate judiciary committee, reading off a page of hand-written remarks. she urged the congress to act now on gun reform. >> too many children are dying. too many children. we must do something. it will be hard. but the time is now. you must act. be bold. be courageous. americans are counting on you. thank you. >> that says it all. giffords' husband, mark kelly, says expanding background checks for gun buyers should be a top priority, but the nra's chief executive, yesterday, even after that, refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check, which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use, in the case of the tucson shooter, into the system, and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would con tend that he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun. if background checks are good enough for somebody who's a federal firearms licensed dealer, like walmart, for instance, where i just purchased a gun a couple months ago, a hunting rifle, and i had to go through a background check, why isn't that good for other sales? >> my problem with background checks is you're never going to get criminals to go through universal background checks. i mean, all of the law-abiding people, you'll create an normal federal bureaucracy. we aren't going to prosecute any of the bad guys if they do catch one. and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> i don't get that. >> senator lindsey graham and others at the hearing made the case for higher capacity magazines. >> would i be a reasonable american to want my family to have the 15-round magazine in a semi-automatic weapon, to make sure if there's true intruders, she don't run out of bullets. am i an unreasonable person for saying that if that situation, the 15-round magazine makes sense? there can be a situation where a mother runs out of bullets because of something we do here. six bullets in the hands of a woman trying to defend her children may not be enough. >> an assault weapon in the hands of a young woman defending her babies in her home becomes a defense weapon. and the peace of mind that woman has as she's facing three, four, five violent attackers, intruders in her home with her children screaming in the background, the peace of mind that she has, knowing that she has a scary-looking gun gives her more courage when she's fighting hardened violent criminals. >> and therein lies the problem with having to defend assault weapons. because if you go out and try to defend assault weapons, then you end up looking like a jackass. it's just -- seriously -- >> i'm sorry, but that's true. >> willie -- >> that was gale trotter, a gun advocate for the independent women's forum. >> and before that, lindsey graham, who said, am i unreasonable to think that a woman needs a high-capacity magazine, rambo, in the house, to defend -- come on! seriously?! this is so stupid. and wayne lapierre saying, there are criminals out there that aren't going to be a bide by background checks, so we just shouldn't have any background checks. willie, why do we have any laws on the books? there are terrorists that are going end to up getting into the united states of america, so why do we even try to stop al qaeda? right? they say they're going to attack us again, so why don't we just -- why don't we let down all of our defenses and just give up? >> oh, god! >> one of the problems or the problem, i think, with the story they told over and over again about the georgia woman with the two infants is she did defend herself. she shot the guy five times and he left the home. she had a gun with six rounds in it, she was able to defend herself. >> but she didn't kill him. >> on your other point about wayne lapierre and the universal background checks, a cbs poll shows 92% of americans favor them, including 89% of republicans and 93% of gun household. people with guns. 93%. >> willie, these people are such -- wayne lapierre is from the survivalist wing of the nra. and if you're landsy graham or other republicans that are going to march off the cliff with wayne lapierre, you're a fool. you're going to get what you deserve and more republicans are going to lose. nobody -- listen to me -- nobody -- listen to me, and colin powell and other republicans warning about how this extremism is going to cost new 2012, it's going to cost us in 2014 and 2016. they can decide. do they want to start winning elections again or not? it's stupidity. >> kelly o'donnell, you were on capitol hill yesterday, do you think what we saw in that room over the course of a long day will have impact now legislatively on the outcome of this whole gun debate? >> i think one of the things that's so important about watching this, when you distill it down, you see the theater and the extreme points of view, but it's really about what congress has to work through, because these ideas are not easy. you can come with a scenario about why an individual, and i noticed they tended to only speak of women who needed to defend themselves, which, you know, perhaps is an effective argument, you can find those scenarios. you can do the survivalest thing, like after katrina or after the riots in l.a., where there are pockets of anarchy that might exist for a period of a few days in the united states, where people might say, i've got to have a weapon. then you've got the heartfelt, emotional testimony of gabrielle giffords and her husband. it's so important to remember, gabrielle giffords is partially blind, she is partially paralyzed. here's somebody who i used to talk to in the hallways and now you could see her struggle to get those carefully chosen words out. that's a very real example of what can happen. coming up, senator claire mccaskill joins us ahead of what could be a tough hearing today for chuck hagel, nominated to be the next secretary of defense. also ahead, the man behind some of the biggest names in music from hall and oates to celine dion. first, a check on the forecast. bill karins? >> what happens when the new york city airports have 60-mile-per-hour winds. let me show you the airport delays right now at laguardia, 3 1/2 hour delays. jfk not quite as bad at 45. the winds are still howling, and i'm sure they'll be building and increasing as we get the information in. the worst of the winds are over with. it now cleared cape cod and still strong gusts, southern coast of maine. but the worst of it is over, as far as the damaging winds. we have a couple hundred thousand people without power in new england this morning, from this storm system. today the temperatures fall in new england. look at the highs today, buffalo and pittsburgh. and there is some cold, i mean, some of the coldest air we've seen this wirnter, racing down off canada. right now, north dakota, the windchill, don't go out, minus 48 degree windchill in rawla, bismarck, 43, that is headed for kansas city and chicago during the day today. it's already cold there and it will get worse. as far as the snow goes, that cold air over the warm great lakes, the snow machine is on from cleveland to erie to buffalo. almost all of michigan and some spots there of ohio and indiana, careful driving with those snow bands today. forecast looks great, though, the on exception, texas to california. everyone else is still feeling this storm system, but beautiful weather on tap for the areas of the west coast over the weekend. you're watching "morning joe," we're brewed by starbucks. [ female announcer ] going to sleep may be easy, but when you wake up in the middle of the night it can be frustrating. it's hard to turn off and go back to sleep. intermezzo is the first and only prescription sleep aid approved for use as needed in the middle of the night when you can't get back to sleep. it's an effective sleep medicine you don't take before bedtime. take it in bed only when you need it and have at least four hours left for sleep. do not take intermezzo if you have had an allergic reaction to drugs containing zolpidem, such as ambien. allergic reactions such as shortness of breath or swelling of your tongue or throat may occur and may be fatal. intermezzo should not be taken if you have taken another sleep medicine at bedtime or in the middle of the night or drank alcohol that day. do not drive or operate machinery until at least 4 hours after taking intermezzo and you're fully awake. driving, eating, or engaging in other activities while not fully awake without remembering the event the next day have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations, or confusion. alcohol or taking other medicines that make you sleepy may increase these risks. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. intermezzo, like most sleep medicines, has some risk of dependency. common side effects are headache, nausea, and fatigue. so if you suffer from middle-of-the-night insomnia, ask your doctor about intermezzo and return to sleep again. ♪ we are using the power of puppies to predict who's going to win the super bowl and here's how it works. right here are two bowls with food. one marked ravens, the other marked 49ers. and behind this wall are five puppies. the objective is to race to one of those bowls as fast -- are you listening to me? hey! don't fall asleep. not all at once. here we go. come on, guys! there you go. go for it! yeah. any one of the bowls. there you go. now, he went back. he doesn't want to do it -- there you go! you can do it. there you go, take it! uh-oh. it's the ravens! oh, my goodness! there, they did it! oh, my goodness! >> 20 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful shot of washington. joining us now from washington, d.c., democratic senator, claire mccaskill. senator mccaskill is a member of the armed services committee, which will hear testimony today on the nomination of chuck hagel for defense secretary. dan seymore and mike barnicle are back with us, and, and cnbc's brian sullivan joins the table. hello, brian. >> hello, mika. newman! >> it is like you're newman. are you okay with that? i tried that on heilemann and he was deeply hurt. >> i'm okay with that. >> you are newman. >> take it easy. >> i don't know about that. he's all newman. okay, senator mccaskill, great to have you on the show, for so many reasons. how are you doing? >> i'm well, thanks. >> a big day today. how do you think it's going to go for chuck hagel and what are your concerns, if any? >> well, i think he's going to have an opportunity, finely, to speak strongly to how important our alliance with israel is. i think it's really important to note that none of the major organizations that advocate for israel on capitol hill are opposing chuck hagel. and it's only the extreme groups that have come out so strong ly against his nomination. and he has a lot to offer our country. i want to hear his testimony, i've had a chance to visit with him personally. i am certainly reassured that he understands the importance of our alliance with israel and i hope that most of the senate gives him a fair chance. because if they do, i think he'll be confirmed easily. >> so when she talks about extreme groups, she's also talking about dan seymore -- >> exactly. >> and people for the seenor way. >> i would just say, the american jewish committee have come out with deep concerns about senator hagel. the anti-defamation league, even the national democratic jewish council, back when chuck hagel was being talked about for positions in republican administrations came out, lashing out against him. >> dan, you and i both know that if chuck hagel presented a threat to israel, aipac would be swarming over the hill. there would be many other organizations that would be swarming over the hill. you wouldn't have chuck schumer coming out as strongly as he has for chuck hagel. these are, in fact, extreme, the extreme group in this advocacy area. >> let me ask you a question, senator. do you think when chuck hagel said that israel keeps palestinians caged up like animals, which i'm not taking out of context -- when chuck hagel is one of two senators, one of two, to vote against sanctions against iran, or fewer than a dozen to oppose labeling hezbollah a terrorist group. do you think that someone like me has concerns about that? you think that's an extreme position? >> listen, i don't have a problem with concerns. but i don't think that they are putting those positions or votes in context of his entire record. let's look at his record. an enlisted man, who knows, really, what war is like, unlike many who have served in this job, he will be the first enlisted man ever to hold this position at the department of defense. somebody who understands how congress works, which is a very important kill set for the secretary of defense. somebody who has served on the armed services committee and gets how this process should work in terms of checks and balances. he's got an awful lot to offer, and if you take his entire record in context, he was a conservative republican from nebraska, for god's sake. he was not some kind of left wing liberal from the west coast. so i just think if everyone gives him a chance to speak for himself about how strongly he feels about protecting israel, about holding iran in check when it comes to nuclear weapons, i think that people will be reassured. now, maybe today he won't reassure people. and that's why i've not said one way or another, because i want to wait and hear his testimony. but having visited with him, i think some of this criticism is taken out of context and is unfair. >> senator, so we've got a lot of things going on in the middle east right now. obviously, yesterday, israel launched a raid in syria. this breaking from the associated press just a few minutes ago, syria and iran are now threatening to retaliate against israel for air raids, into syria. does -- what do we expect to hear, not only from chuck hagel, but what's your position about israel's right to launch raids into syria, if they believe that it's to stop armed shipments to hezbollah? >> well, first of all, i believe that israel has a sovereign right to protect its own nation. and i think that is their decision and we need to respect their decision. on the other hand, we also have to be prepared to do what we need to do to protect the united states of america and, ancillary to that, to protect israel. so i think it is a difficult situation. the internal politics in israel has shifted slightly with the latest election, where a more moderate party did very well in the elections and kind of weakened beating netanyahu to some extent, internally in israel, and that is even why it is more important that we remain absolutely staunch in our support of israel and their ability to protect themselves. they're in the most dangerous part of the world. they have a right to protect themselves. >> so, claire, yesterday, dramatic testimony on the hill, gabby giffords coming to the senate, testifying. also, some arguments put forth that are still inexplicable to me. but i want to ask you about the real challenge for president obama right now. the house, obviously, poses a great challenge, but the first challenge is getting gun control legislation, actually, assault weapon regulation through the democratic senate. we think universal background checks are going to pass. that certainly is looking good. but what about these democrats from moderate districts? how are they going to vote on assault weapons and how are they going to vote on these-capacity magazines? and how are you going to vote? do you think we should be able to more strictly regulation high-capacity magazines and assault weapons? >> i think we have right to more strictly regulate high-capacity magazines and assault weapons. i think what we've got to do is find that place, which is tricky, with this issue, that we can get enough votes to get it across the finish line. you know, you say universal background checks is a foregone conclusion. did you hear wayne lapierre yesterday? >> oh, my god! >> you've got 91% of americans supporting this -- >> i know! i know! >> wayne lapierre's defeatest attitude -- i won't say it's un-american, but it certainly isn't george patton like. he's basically say we can do nothing, nothing. >> we have to convince america, joe, that i'm a second amendment advocate. i was raised in a household where my family had to have cream of mushroom soup in the pantry all the time, because mom had to put it on what dad shot to make it edible. i was raised in a hunting culture in rural missouri. so it is very important in my state that we protect the second amendment. we've got to get to the point that people will believe that we can love the second amendment, but also that i don't need to buy my new grandson's parents a semi-automatic weapon to put in the stroller as they go around, strolling my new grandson through the park. you know, this notion that women need 30-round clips to protect their babies in their homes, i don't know have many mothers that want a 30-round clip in their home, around their babies. >> it's a ridiculous concept. >> it is really extreme. so we've got to find that moderate middle. and i want to be part of the group that helps us find that moderate middle, that allows us to actually get something done, rather than talking at each other from the opposite ends of the spectrum. >> so, senator, you just referenced, you know, convincing the country. and you just talked about the moderate middle. so my question to you is, do you think it's possible to convince some members of the senate that common sense can take precedence over fear of losing an election? >> i think it can. i think it can. and especially, you know, here's the bottom line. our country is a great nation. and can our country shrug in indifference after our children are massacred sitting in the classroom of a public school? can we just say, "never mind, it doesn't matter"? we are a great nation and we ought to be strong enough to respond thouo this strategy, to this slaughter of innocent children in a way that makes sense, that protects the second amendment, but also that says to people out there, we've decided that this is a priority. and it should be. >> why do not more public people stand up when wayne lapierre testifies, after he testifies, about the fear of the government coming and taking guns out of your home. why don't more public people -- >> which, by the way, can i just stop you -- the constitution does not allow that. the second amendment does not allow that. the united states supreme court does not allow that. scalia, thomas, alito, roberts, kennedy all together said, mike, that americans have a right to keep and bear arms, handguns, shotguns, hunting rifles to protect their families. but that the federal government can regulate these other things. wayne lapierre, if he says or ted cruz says that first they're going to take your assault weapons and then they're going to come for your handguns, they're lying. they can't do that. it's unconstitutional. >> the second amendment, though, mentions nothing about ammunition. senators, there's something you can do on that side. we're talking about the gun side. can we make ammunition uneconomic? >> well, i think what we have to do is look at the framework that has been put out there by senator feinstein and others and then see how much of it we can get enough votes for, to get it passed through the senate. and how much of it will actually succeed in getting to the president's desk. this is about the politically possible. now, having said that, more senators need to realize that the nra, giving you an "f," is not the end of your political clear. i'm from a very pro-gun state. i'm from a state that mitt romney won by almost ten points. my state rejected extremism. they said, we don't want the extreme view. there's no question todd akin would be voting against this. there's no question that todd akin would be voting against chuck hagel. you know, most states want someone who's willing to find that common ground. and we can find it on this as long as the nra is not the one driving the debate. >> all right, senator claire mccaskill, my favorite senator, and now you see why. you make perfect sense and you're absolutely right, especially on guns. >> what about dan seymore? >> i don't agree with him at all. i like him. he drives me crazy. >> he does remember the luggage. >> he's a male. >> when i leave the set, you say i'm your favorite -- >> senator mccaskill? >> she says you're a senior citizen. >> claire, thank you. >> thank you. >> i'm so glad you're there and you look great. you're looking fitter than ever and under extreme circumstances. i think that's an incredible feat. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. take care. >> okay. >> see you later. coming up, he's one of the most successful executives in music history, working with artists ranging from michael jackson to celine deon to billy joel. tommy mottola joins us next to tell us his story on "morning joe." ♪ [ male announcer ] finally, mom's oven-baked tastes straight from the microwave. like oven-roasted chicken in a creamy alfredo sauce. marie callender's new comfort bakes. it's time to savor. marie callender's new comfort bakes. so, i'm working on a cistern intake valve, and the guy hands me a locknut wrench. no way! i'm like, what is this, a drainpipe slipknot? 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[ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today. with us now, former ceo of sony music entertainment, tommy mottola. he's the man behind such successes as hall & oates, mariah carey, and the explosion of the latin pop scene. and he's out now with the new book, "hitmaker: the man and his music." tommy, good to see you again. >> good morning. >> the list, amazing, hall & oates, michael jackson, carly simon, celine deon, gloria estefan, billy joel, on and on and on and on. a very remarkable career. >> very privileged and fortunate to have had the ability to work with all those great people. >> so you know we have these shows like "american idol" and all those, and we've watched the process of a voice breaking through. how is it that you know when you hear it or see it, or is it more of a process than an immediate reaction? >> it's a process and an immediate reaction. it takes two things. a great song and a great voice. sometimes it just takes a great song, because at the end of the day, it's really all about the song. you have a great songwriter like bob dylan, who was never, you know, applauded to be the greatest singer in the world, but yet his songs became poetry and became folklore. >> let's -- go ahead, mike, i'm sorry. >> no, you go ahead. >> i was going to say, let's talk about the record industry in general, though. and one of the problems with where we are today compared to where we were when you were growing up in it, and i was growing up listening to it, a guy like bruce springsteen could come out, he could put out two, three albums that didn't hit, you could go hear him, which you did, and talk about it in the book, hear him with a couple hundred people listening to him sing "rosalita," and the first time i saw that, it just blew my mind, and you could sort of play it out until "born to run" came out and "hit me" exploded. that doesn't happen today. >> it was almost expected that you would develop an artist over two or three and sometimes even four albums. so when you entered into an agreement with an artist, you would think about it on a long-term basis. it's going to take this amount of time for them to develop, this amount of time for them to go out and perform and learn how to do it correctly. today, the economics do not allow that. >> why is that? >> well, you can release a number one record, let's say it comes out and it goes to number one, a single, the album may only sell 50, 60,000. that's not even enough to keep the lights on. whereas in the past, when the supply chain was more controlled, you know, whether it was from the inception of the artist to working with retail and radio and distribution and all the things that -- >> you controlled everything. >> when you control the supply chain, you can have a much bigger result. so today the consumer is the one in charge. and it's a big difference. and they may just want that one song. they may not care about the body of work. so it's changed the economics dramatically, which does not allow the companies to develop talent the way they used to. >> and it's also, mike, why we aren't going to have artists with great catalogs 10, 15 years from now. we look back, and god, you just could keep naming them all day. >> you think psy's going to come out with hit after hit after hit? come on, joe. >> that was part of the question i was going to ask, how have things like itunes and pandora and spotify changed things for the producer as well as the artist? >> the artists receive pennies, the record companies receive pennies compared to the revenue streams that were there before. the wholesale price of a record was somewhere around $4, compared to now, what you might receive from itunes, which could be half of that or less, on an album. >> on an album. >> on an album. and this is a time when albums are not selling nearly what they used to sell. so the whole picture has changed dramatically and everyone is scrambling to figure out how to monetize and harness this, because the one thing that the internet has done, though, it's created a more insatiable appetite for music than ever. so the consumer wants music more than ever, has music more than ever, more is available, because anyone can upload a clip and a song. >> i used to spend $500 a year on cds, then $300 a year on itunes, now about $100 a year on spotify or mog, which is a spot any clo fy clone and a good one at that. how can a singer make money now? can they? >> it's very, very difficult. because basically the album sales were an extremely lucrative source of revenue. and then from there, the live performances and the merchandising. so once one of those revenue streams has dried up, and the ability for that to create the platform from which they can get all of those other sources of income, you know, doesn't exist, it makes it much more difficult. and that's why you have the big -- if you look at any of the big shows out there, it's still the top ten same people, all the time, selling the tickets. whether it's bruce or madonna or u2. that's it. you know, occasionally, there'll be package shows, where you can have breakthroughs. although the festivals, i must say, have been a source of breaking a lot of new talent. >> well, that's what i was going to ask you, as the mother of a budding songwriter, like, how do you break in? it almost seems just overwhelming. >> it is overwhelming, but if your child is a songwriter, that's an advantage as opposed to just being a singer. i mean, because the songs are everything. you know, without a script, you have no movie, without a song, you have no record, no music. >> and i know it's hard with your storied career, to boil it all down to one great moment or one great artist, but can you think of a highlight, that as you went back, when you were writing this book, you just said to yourself, because it passed by so quickly when you were doing it, you stopped to yourself and thought, that was really special. what was the one moment? >> i was so fortunate and so blessed to have so many of those. it was almost like a kid being taken to fao schwartz and saying, you know, okay, what do you want? well, let me live here for the rest of my life. so when you get a chance to -- i mean, the first artist that i actually signed and worked with were hall & oates, and remember them walking into my office, playing me those song, and from there, all of the other artists that i mentioned, whether it was carly simon or mellencamp or whatever, but then going to sony and having the ability to work with the greats like bruce springsteen and billy and then discovering mariah and celine and shakira, it was overwhelmingly satisfying experience that is hard to describe. >> unbelievable. >> you know, joe, as we were talking before we began this segment, and tommy grew up near arthur avenue in the bronx, still the site of a couple of great italian restaurants. >> we still go back. >> his life could have been titled "a bronx tale," one of the great movies of all time, but it could have been "a bronx tale." >> i told him, the funny thing is that chaz just did the audio book and at the end of it, he said, this is just another bronx tale. >> i love it. sounds like the making of a movie. the book is "hitmaker" tommy mottola, great to have you on the show. >> thank you so much. up next, brian sullivan, newman, will take us through his top business headlines this morning. sometimes what we suffer from is bigger than we think ... like the flu. with aches, fever and chills- the flu's a really big deal. so why treat it like it's a little cold? there's something that works differently than over-the-counter remedies. prescription tamiflu attacks the flu virus at its source. so don't wait. call your doctor right away. tamiflu is prescription medicine for treating the flu in adults and children one year and older whose flu symptoms started within the last two days. before taking tamiflu tell your doctor if you're pregnant, nursing. have serious health conditions, or take other medicines. if you develop an allergic reaction, a severe rash, or signs of unusual behavior, stop taking tamiflu and call your doctor immediately. children and adolescents in particular may be at an increased risk of seizures, confusion or abnormal behavior. the most common side effects are mild to moderate nausea and vomiting. the flu comes on fast, so ask your doctor about tamiflu. prescription for flu. time for business before the bell with cnbc's brian sullivan. got a lot of stuff to talk about. bad numbers yesterday, today, better numbers on personal income. >> yeah, personal income jumped 2.6%, which is a good thing. although, listen, it's one of these mixed bags. i think i'm deciding that everything we see from the fourth quarter or at least december is going to be sort of -- have an asterisk. it's going to be kind of the p.e.d. number. income jumped because people were paying themselves a ton of money ahead of the higher tax rate this year. but for the most part, you had the higher income numbers, which is a good thing. >> that's a good thing. you're also fog a story in the "wall street journal" today about unions and health care. >> it's getting a lot of play out there. and the story is basically this, folks. it's in the journal, which is that part of obama care allows caps on precipitation drug spending, and some unions, apparently, are just realizing this. and they're pushing back on the administration to make sure they don't have these caps, because they're saying, that's going to drive up our medical costs, our health care costs, more than we thought, which means, we're going to be less competitive in the marketplace. so according to the journal, the unions are pushing back on the obama administration about this cap. and they're asking for federal subsidies on top of their work insurance. >> all right. and let's talk about facebook now. they've just had a brutal year. but some pretty good news in the fourth quarter. >> hey, the stock is up 70%, 7-0, since september, joe. mobile ad revenue is up. that's what everyone wants to see. 70% the stock is up since september. mobile ad revenue up 23%, which is accelerating. look around the table, okay. mika with her iphone, iphone -- >> soon to be samsung. >> barnicle, you've got an abacus, i've got an iphone, but there's two laptops. that's the way it's going. if facebook can't monetize that rather than that, they're going to be in trouble. you figure this out, folks, you're in good shape. >> so we've got iphones around here. does blackberry have a shot of get back? >> good job, by the way, they changed their name from research in motion officially to blackberry. their share has gone from 44% to 2. are you willing to carry around two devices? that's it. we're all locked into ecosystems. >> i see a lot of people carrying around two devices. >> that's because corporate devices give it to them. now they're allowing it all on this. i've got one device. that's their challenge. >> i want one device with one charger, one type of charger, and i want the device to not -- >> and i want one ring to rule them all. "lord of the rings" reference, mika. >> brian sullivan, thank you so much, for whatever you just did. you can catch brian on cnbc's "street signs" wednesday weekdays at 2:00 p.m. on tomorrow's show, from the academy of award-nominated film "silver linings playbook," bradley cooper is going to be here. >> and i saw it. he said he would come back after i saw the movie. and i did not walk out. >> it is a great movie. we'll be right back with the best of late night. ♪ if it wasn't for you ♪ don't know what i'd do ♪ i'd have nothing to prove [ male announcer ] introducing the celebration diamond collection. zales is the diamond store. let love shine. it's a challenge to balance work and family. ♪ that's why i love adt. i can see what's happening at my business from anywhere. 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[ male announcer ] call today and get adt for less than $2 a day. helping protect your business is our business. adt. always there. all stations come over to mithis is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers. we here at subway admit we can no longer refer to our sandwiches as footlong when they actually measure less than 12 inches. in addition, our lawyers now inform us that we can no longer refer to this menu item as meatballs. subway, eat fresh. >> baltimore ravens linebacker ray lewis has been accused of juicing by "sports illustrated." yeah, they say he's using a substance derived from deer antlers, which is illegal. yeah, lewis, is, of course, denying the charges. take a look. >> i've said it before, i've said it a million times, and the reason why i'm smiling, is because it's so funny, because i've never -- >> my lord. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today. we're all having such a great year in the gulf, we've decided to put aside our rivalry. 'cause all our states are great. and now is when the gulf gets even better. the beaches and waters couldn't be more beautiful. take a boat ride or just lay in the sun. enjoy the wildlife and natural beauty. and don't forget our amazing seafood. so come to the gulf, you'll have a great time. especially in alabama. you mean mississippi. that's florida. say louisiana or there's no dessert. brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home. i'd like to thank eating right, whole grain, multigrain cheerios! mom, are those my jeans? [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above. and still pay the mid-size price. i could get used to this. [ male announcer ] yes, you could business pro. yes, you could. go national. go like a pro. welcome back to "morning joe." it's time to talk about what we learned today. what did you learn, brian? >> i know you guys are doing something really cool. i went out to dinner last night with a good buddy from mine who lives in breezy point. his house was spared, but half of breezy point burned down. a lot of people still struggling out there. my wife's family is from seaside, new jersey, is shout-out to the good work that is still being done to rebuild. >> joe and i will be hosted "relief for rockaway" tonight at 6:30 p.m.. >> mike barnicle? >> i learned what we just saw, the piece that lewis did that we showed earlier, nothing can prepare you for the reality of the devastation in the rockaways. and in new jersey as well from sandy. nothing can compare. pictures don't even get close to it. >> and time goes by, but these people are still in this reality right now. so please logon to the website and help out any way you can. >> no doubt about it, we've got to do everything we can. you know, the news tru

Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20190910

the one that's most annoying i think in our present culture is people saying right at the end of the sciencentence, you know i mean? i don't mean to get off on a small rant at the top of the show is that's annoying. i guess what i'm saying is i have no annoying verbal ticks. >> jonathan la mere, of course our annoying verbal tick right now is the red sox suck, lost again to the yankees last night. not the red sox themselves, but we'll just say some of of the decisions they made over the past year when they decided that, well, winning the world series wasn't really all that important to them. certainly with what they did to the trading deadlines. happier news last night, we actually had a guy that came out and pitched the opening pitch which actually was actually a better pitch than anything that porcello threw all year. >> he it was great to see david ortiz again last night in the is his first public appearance since he was shot back in his home, the dominican republic, a few months ago. he had a difficult recovery. you know, we've seen some instagram photos of him recently, but this is the first time out among the masses and at fenway park. you can see the ovation he received. as far as the team, they didn't look good at all this season, joe and mike, it's over, it's been over for a while and now we're dealing with the aftermath of general dave dombrowski, the general manager who helped lead them to a world series title last year but did nothing to improve the bull pen, made a bunch of questionable decisions, seems to have lost support of the manager, ownership and clubhouse. so when you put all that together, i guess it was time for him to go. >> mike, a wonderful moment last night. by the way, the red sox players, i loved the team. they were just let down by, you know, dombrowski and everybody else this year without getting a pitcher. just a great group of guys. but that was a great moment last night, wasn't it? >> was a great moment and it was nice to see him out there. obviously as jonathan indicated, he's back healthy. throwing the way he always throws. could never throw left handed, little popsicle throw. >> didn't have to. >> that's right, you're right, willie. it was a great night. listen, we know what happened this year, we knew it early on and the dombrowski firing was clearly because the team was upset he seemed not to do anything and did nothing at the trading deadline at the end of the july. but baseball is such a wonderful game that it's therapy still being out there each night. >> i got to say, i was watching last night and, i mean, even knowing that we're out of it it's so wonderful being able to watch. i was -- i was already mourning the passing of baseball season because it is. >> yeah. >> it is just such a part of our lives, just even if -- mika even loves it in the background. it's wonderful. i mean, i could do a james earl jones speech from field of dreams right now. but instead, jonathan, i'm going to ask you to tell us about the rally last night in north carolina. over the summer, of course, really the start of a prec precipitous decline for donald trump. north carolina, of course, the place where most commentators said trump led the crowd in what could only be described as fascist chants. that's what a lot of them are saying, send her back, send her home. what about last night? was it a calmer affair last night in north carolina with donald trump? >> so we were in fayetteville, north carolina, last night. i was part of the press pool that traveled there to cover the president's rally. it was. we were only about 100 miles from the site of the previous rally in greenville where the racist send her back chants about those four democratic congresswomen of color, in particular omar who was born in somalia, though chants were heard and really set a tone for an ugly year and a half of campaign fought along the lines of race and he divisiveness. we didn't hear that last night. the president did not mention any of those congresswomen so there was no moment for them to start with that chant again. we've now had a few rallies in a row which we have not heard it. but last night's rally is still potentially an interesting moment for this president because of today's special election in north carolina where he is trying to push a republican candidate across the finish line to win an open seat there. and it's being viewed sort of as a referendum on his political clout right now. the district is part of it is the suburban areas are outside charlotte where he has struggled in the past. it's a seat republicans held for quite some time. the polling indicates it's close. and we saw from the president this is the first time in his rally setting where he likes to recent and air his grievances, this is the top end of summer for him when we saw his poll numbers slip and economy slowing cow down. we saw a nonsensical balt over hurricane forecasts. but he largely stuck to the script last night. but he made it clear, he painted a bleak picture for this nation if democrats were to win according to him it would be overrun with crime and poverty and illegal immigrants. he made it clear, if you want to keep what we have, you need to keep me -- ideally in office and ideally send this republican to the house. >> before we get to our top news story of the day, willie, you saw a poll that david put out on twitter last night that showed the democrats actually had an advantage in 2018 on party identification and it wasn't really even close. now a year later after the first three democratic debates it's even as far as party identification, you know, would you support republicans or do you support democrats, it's now down the middle. and so much of that is not because of donald trump whose numbers have fallen precipitously, it's those debates where democrats are ridiculing obamacare as being too conservative, attacking barack obama on immigration, talking about decriminalizing illegal immigration, talking about giving healthcare plans to illegal immigrants, talking about forgiving all debt, medical debt, student debt, $22 trillion in debt as a nation. for a lot of americans this just doesn't add up. >> yeah, that's why you've seen joe biden remain where he is, because he hasn't gone into that territory. for all the problems he's had and the mistakes he's made and the misstatements he's made on the campaign trail, he hasn't gone to that place of eliminating privacy insurance and providing healthcare to people who are here undocumented. that's the central concern. if you let donald trump just do his thing, democrats feel like they can beat him because he's going to bury himself. but they have to be develop careful not to bury themselves in their own debate process. you're down to ten coming up on thursday and, you know, the democrats will have to look very carefully at the way they behave in the previous two debates. you cannot attack this guy joe biden in the way that they've done that. you cannot attack barack obama. >> that's right. >> perhaps the most beloved figure in the democratic party in the country at a time when you're trying to defeat donald trump. >> yeah, mika, attacking bah brack obama is being too conservative. >> yeah. >> being too harsh on healthcare and immigration. most americans remember that barack obama actually helped pass a law that gave coverage to those with preexisting conditions that took care of their older children, that lowers the uninsured in america. they also actually now that donald trump has made such a mess of our immigration policy. >> yeah. >> remember that under barack obama illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low. >> that is the case. that is the truth. okay. so if you want more of the same, here are our top news stories this morning. several bombshell reports reveal that in mid-2017 the united states successfully exfiltrated one of its top spies from russia over fears he was in danger of being caught. "the new york times" reports that the cia's russian informant who was outside of vladimir putin's inner circle but saw him regularly and had access to high-level kremlin decision making was instrumental. decision that putin ordered and orchestrated the interference campaign in the 2016 presidential election. the times adds that the source was the government's, quote, best insight into the thinking of and orders from putin and was key to the cia's assessment that putin favored trump and personally ordered the hacking of the dnc. putin later confirmed in a 2018 news conference in helsinki that the kremlin favored trump. nbc news has not confirmed that the russian fed the cia information about the russia election interference but for reasons that nbc is withholding, he fits the profile of someone who may have had access to information about putin's activities and who would have been recruitable by american intelligence officials. current and former government officials tell nbc news that a former senior russian official who had access to government secrets is currently living in the washington area under u.s. government protection. nbc news has not confirmed that this official is the cia asset mentioned in "the new york times" and cnn reports, however, to former fbi officials tell nbc news they believe set source referred to in those reports. president trump was asked about the story yesterday. >> the report today that say that you have mishandled classified information from russia? >> i know nothing about it. i see the cia responded perfectly. so whatever the cia said is find with me. but i heard they responded perfectly. i know nothing. >> so, clint, obviously this is an extraordinarily disturbing report. you have the times going a bit further than others suggesting that actually this spy that was so highly placed -- i'm sorry, it was cnn who went further that this spy who was placed in putin's inner circle was actually pulled out because of fears that donald trump would refeel hr reveal his existence. others have pulled out because the heat was getting too high with what was in the media and there were concerns about donald trump. but if you go back to i think it was february of 2017, donald trump revealed classified information from an ally in the white house to russia's foreign minister and ambassador of the united states. so obviously the prudent move, regardless, given the fact that he was trying so hard to pass along -- and there's a picture where he pass aid long very sensitive, highly sensitive information to the russians in the light of day, in the oval office, suggests that no source in putin's inner circle would be safe with this man as commander and chief. >> yeah. i wanted to add to that cnn story is what else started may, 2017? that was the special counsel investigation. i think that is maybe a little bit less discussed in these articles but should be put in context. as soon as you launch an investigation like that we know there's going to be expensive amounts of intelligence that's going to come forward that's almost impossible to mask. what did we see from american congressional leaders? once the special investigation started, there was discussions of fisas, leaks about all sorts of classified sources, people battling back and forth. that's spilled out in the public for more than two years. when we look back over the last four to five years, let's look at what putin did if the we talk about 9/11, pearl harbor, he interfered in our election, he helped elevate a candidate of his choosing. he launched a public inquiry which has been a quagmire for more than two years, and expunged one of the top sources inside russia, from russia, back to the united states. it will ultimately go down historically as one of the biggest defeats of america, particularly in terms of the intelligence business. and now when you look at it, we have lost allies, we've lost stature around the world. we're not seen as a trusted source. our intelligence sharing, i don't know who would share with us at this point the way our country as a whole has been operating, the way things have spilled out into the media. and how would you ever recruit a source that could be replaced? this doesn't speak to the taxpayer costs in terms of labor, man hour, resources that have gone into protecting this individual bringing him back out. i think they absolutely made the right decision, but it just is a devastating loss for our country. >> and, willie, if you look at what our fbi director that donald trump nominated, selected, our cia director, the national director of intelligence, if you look at the united states military and their intel officials, they've all warned the president of the united states, all of them, all republican appointees, all confirmed by mitch mcconnell senate, they have all warned the president of the united states, including kirsten nielsen which when she was still the director of homeland security that russia is still interfering in america democracy and we must do something about it. and if you have moscow mitch of the senate pilg killing all bills to protect america from russia interference and a president that denies its existence, what choice do you have but to remove valuable assets from russia? because whether he is or not, most intelligence officials would have to conclude that is he somehow compromised for not responding to their dire warnings about protecting american democracy. >> we understand why donald trump wants to deflect from this story, because it cheapens his victory in 2016. the mitch mcconnell side of it, the congressional side of it remains more curious to me why they won't take these obvious steps to protect our elections today and going forward from here. clint, this is obviously an extraordinary step to slip a russian asset out of the country, provide protection in the united states. in your experience, what would be the circumstances under which the cia would like and say we've got to get this guy out of here? was there an immediate threat to you think to this guy? >> i imagine there -- i don't know, but i imagine there was not. but when you're looking at the public reporting, you see consistently reports about, hey, everyone went to talk to donald trump and say russia interfered in the election and there's some wobbling about that, right? >> right. >> there's not trust in the sources. you're seeing the dossier surface. that has all sorts of sources listed 'the when you see that you know to russia now internally inside russia is going through all their ranks and start cleaning up messes and assessing people. and the cia, i'm sure, the cia, fbi, the whole intelligence community, when they saw there was going to be a major investigation with a public disclosure, it's time to wrap up your sources because that's your last chance to protect them. now this. new reporting from the "new york times" contradicts the president's claim that he has nothing to do with the scottish airport where air force crews have been refueling and staying overnight at his nearby resort, nothing to do with it. the times citing documents obtained from the scottish government. reports that the trump organization and trump himself played a direct role in setting up an arrangement between his golf resort in glass could you prestwick airport. the partnership set up in 2014 was meant to provide private air traffic to the region. but part of the agreement accord to the times worked to get trump turnberry added to a list of hotels that the airport would routinely send air crews too even though the turnberry resort is 20 miles from the airport, farther away than many other hotels and has higher advertised prices. the times reports the number of such stops by air force planes at prestwick rose from 180 in 2017 to 257 last year and 259 so far this year. the 259 stops this year included 220 overnight stays since october of 2017 records show 917 payments for expenses including fuel at the airport worth a total of over $17 million. here's the president speaking about the issue yesterday. >> i haven't found out other than when a plane stops at a massive international airport and gets fuel, i don't own the airport. every time you find a person landing an airplane within 500 miles of something i own, mike pence as an example, his family lives in doonbeg, ireland, and he's actually told me that he stayed there many years ago. i bought it years ago. but he was there before i bought it i believe, he said, a long time ago. but he was in ireland so he said, you know what i'll do? i'll see my family. i didn't know about that. but i can say he has good taste. >> that is what you call verbal pore ridg poridge. i don't know if that's what you call it but that's what you should call it. mike, we're sitting here going we wonder what saudis are staying at the trump hotel in washington, d.c. let's go through the records to figure out who through qatar is -- it's the united states air force. like, we need to look at the united states air force and see how they are now direct -- i mean, directing millions and millions of dollars trump's way for this airport that actually helps donald trump out, helps -- helps his business out to a tune of what? what did they say? >> 17 million. >> $17 million in refueling. that's taxpayer money. it's like mike pence decides to go to the other side of ireland in a meeting and what? take 250 room nights? i don't know if that's the exact number. i thought i read that somewhere. but piling, again, a ton of money into donald trump's properties. >> yeah. >> it's a scam. it's the great american scam from scotland to ireland to pennsylvania avenue. everywhere this guy touches. and now it's the united states air force. >> you know, joe, it doesn't get a whole lot of chatter on cable and occasionally there's an important news story like the one that you're just referring to in the times today and other papers. but the level of corruption in this administration from day one. >> it's unbelievable. >> has been epidemic. epidemic. and, you know, we do cover it, but you just wonder does it resonate out there because it's an ongoing affair. there's stories about who stayed at the hotel on pennsylvania avenue and now this incredibly the world's most expensive gas station in western scotland. >> i know. >> and people just, they've come to accept it now. >> i'm afraid that people may have become numb to it, but it has to continually be reported. is totally outrageous. i mean, just step back for a second. it's clearly the united states government in the form of the military should not be doing business at places owned by the president of the united states. that's a clear conflict of interest and clear appearance of corruption if not actual corruption which it is. and certainly it should never happen in a happen. and any other president, i think, perhaps in our history would have recognized that. this would not be happening under any other administration, yet it's routine, it's routine and it's increasing and it's every single day from the hotel to the airport to the golf resorts to mar-a-lago to every -- every way he can put money in his pocket. every way that donald trump can put money in his pocket from being president he's doing it. and that will be a big part of the story that's eventually written of this corrupt administration, just the level of blatant in your face out in the open corruption that, for some reason, is being tolerated. >> yep. and, you know, elise jordan, i don't know that this is going unnoticed by americans. i've been saying all along that too many people were shocked by what donald trump did in 2016 so they assume he's going to do the same thing in 2020 and shock them. i'm not so sure of that since that racist rally, those racist chants of send her back started pup and we saw an uptick in some of his egregious behavior. they consider him a racist. we've had one story after another how he's enriching himself. in a new abc "washington post" poll just broke showing that his approval rating dropped from 44% down to 38%. so it's sitting now at 38%. it has been, we talked about this last week, a cruel, cruel political summer for donald trump. and the most remarkable thing, and i do talk to trump supporters a good bit, what infuriates them and what infuriates people close to him in the white house is so much of these scars are self-inflicted. he can't get out of his own way. >> joe, i don't think that donald trump understands that his for now republican allies on the hill actually really don't like him. he has been their blunt instrument, their means to an end and they have tolerated him as he's doing things that go along with what they want and while the economy is strong. and after this summer of racist ranting, of, you know, just cheerleading a recession practically by his own twitter handle and voters are directly relate, dips in the market of what donald trump is saying and doing on twitter, this has not been a good summer for him. while 38% of people might be okay with the racism, with the tanking of the economy by casual tweet, i think he really did a lot of damage to himself this summer. and then further stories of corruption, whether it's the trump hotel in washington to scotland, that does not do anything to help donald trump's political for tunes. >> absolutely not. >> not at all. and again, willie, sitting at 38% this morning down from 44% at the beginning of the summer. i just want to follow up with what elise said. i spoke to a republican insider last night, one of the mopowerf that i know that has quietly remained in the background so their firm could still get business in this age of trump republicanism. and he told me exactly what elise said. he said what donald trump doesn't realize is he is so despised on capitol hill, he's so despised by republican governors across the country and by members of the house personally that it's only a matter of time. and this was last night before these numbers came out, that they start planning ahead for post trump washington and pretty soon they're not going to take the slings and arrows for this guy because it's proving to be a losing proposition. >> and we hear all the same things behind the scenes. we hear all the same things off the record from republicans and others. but we don't hear it in public. we don't hear it on the record. we still don't see republicans in the senate or many in the house who are willing to step out and say the president was wrong when he led those chants. he was wrong to manipulate a weather map for god sake. and this question about the hotel and everything else gets to the question of draining the swamp. that was one of the central promises of this campaign and, boy,s that been the opposite of draining the swamp. filling the newspapers with the stories like we see today, filling his cabinet with people like wilbur ross who according to "the new york times," i know we'll get to that in a minute, ordered the noaa to come out against the national weather service. this is not draining the swamp. these are people the president knows running our country and not doing a very good job of it. >> maybe they need to drain -- scotland and ireland, maybe they need drain the moat of the trump goo that's filling up. >> that's a dynasty. listen, you would think that these moves over the actions that this president has taken that we're talking about, it's the kind of thing that would make republicans, some of them at least, want to vote for an alternative. the democrats either need to give us one, a really -- a really good one that some republicans on the fence would vote for, or maybe the republicans will come up with a really good candidate for 2020. maybe we have one. still ahead on "morning joe," the president contradicts his head of customs and border protection on what would happen if hurricane victims from the bahamas arrive in the u.s. without proper documentation. we have new reporting on that. but first let's go right to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> this picture is unimaginable. good morning, everyone. we're watching quiet things in the tropics. there's nothing threatening any land areas at least much of this week, that's great news. if you're waking up this morning in wisconsin, you've had a lot of thunderstorms overnight. now over the top of milwaukee. if you're driving north to chicago could be issues. and also in omaha and des moines. and how about the heat in the south? i know everyone's been complaining. you want a little bit of relief. still feels like 100 to 110. still feels like the middle of july and we're rolling into the middle of september. it will feel like 101 in new orleans, memphis at 104 this afternoon. then it starts to spread a little bit up through the east coast as we go through augusta, georgia. d.c. will have another day in the 90s. philly on thursday. it won't be till the end of the week that we get relief in chicago and st. louis. washington, d.c., you've had your little break, the heat will return along with the humidity during the mid dle of the week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. k. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. now, there's skyrizi. i have moderate to severe froplaque psoriasis.born 3 out of 4 people achieved... ...90% clearer skin at 4 months... ...after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections... ...and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection... ...or 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some very bad gang members and some very, very bad drug dealers. >> president trump contradicting the acting chief of customs and border patrol mark morgan just hours apart when asked if bahamians struggling after hurricane dorian are welcome here in the united states. the current death toll standing now at 50. thousands still trying to evacuate but have been faced with many challenges trying to get into the u.s. joining us now, julia ainslie who has been covering this story. good morning. which is it, are the bahamians fleeing the homes trying to get to the united states, are they welcome here or will they be put through some kind of vet process? the president pointing to unidentified drug dealers. not sure who he's talking about there. >> there was this huge discrepancy. . >> there are 1500 survivors that have already been taken into the country. at first it seems will these people be given work thati authorizations, how long can they stay here? and then because of the president saying i don't know if they can come, there was guidance that put out saying they do need travel documents having to contradict their own commissioner who said they could come no matter what. there was a line in there that said port directors can use their own discretion if someone has certain circumstances. but they all have circumstances. they're fleeing mass devastation. so at this point, though, they say you do have to have valid travel documents. but officials i've spoken to said it has come up at dhs meetings how will these people find their travel documents in the midst of that? how do you find a passport in that? >> so the logistics of this from the bahamas to the united states, how do they get here? what happens to them when they do arrive here? >> well, there are a number of ways. we have to remember that there are about two northern islands that were the most devastated. but there are other places you can leave from the bahamas. there can be flights that are coming into the united states. we saw in one ways there was a f ferry leaving from freeport and gone to florida. they should have gone to nassau. that's something that had been worked out with other ferries people fleeing the hurricane devastation. in this case they did not do that and these people were forced off the boat. but that was not necessarily customs and border protection, it was the boat not knowing where these people were supposed to go along their route. but in that case it just shows the chaos that happens after a devastation like this. people fleeing, they don't have anything, they're trying to survive. and without a proper message from the united states about whether or not we're taking you in, how long you can stay here and what you need to get here, it gets really confusing and it just adds to the chaos. >> any evidence, julia, that there are very bad people, very bad gang members and very, very bad drug dealers come through after the hurricane from the bahamas? >> there's not evidence that i've heard of or talking to my sources that this is something that has come up as a national security threat in the meetings. the meetings they're having right now at dhs are mainly about how they care for these people and vet them, of course, as they come in as they would from any country. but, no, i don't think they're talking about the big gangs from the bahamas right now. >> so, julia, if that had happened in the state of florida, we would know that ron desantis, the governor, would be in charge of state efforts and you'd have fema and sba and the white house in charge of national efforts. here, not so far from our shores at all we have a humanitarian crisis. look at the pictures. it's worse than anything we saw in hurricane katrina except for a couple of mississippi towns as far as everything flattened. what can you tell census whus? what is the united states doing? is there somebody in charge of the american government's efforts to bring relief to the people of the bahamas? or are they just on their own? >> well, there have been u.s. efforts to provide relief, and that is on going. but i still go back to the fact that 1500 survivors came in just over the weekend. the big question for these people in terms of being able to leave and to come here is whether they get something called temporary protective status. that used to be a given in a situation like this, looking at that devastation. there's still people living here who came here from haiti in the 2010 earthquake. these are things we gave to people fleeing e-beal in centbo africa. this has been a common thing the united states has given to people fleeing devastation and they're able to live here, work here and a lot of times build a community here. in this case because this administration has gone after protected temporary status, this has become into question. not only will they be able to come here and live here, but will they be able to come here at all? aid is still ongoing. it's very different if it was florida or within the united states. but i do understand aid is going, it's a matter of how do you aid a community that is so devastated and help people who just need to escape to survive. >> the administration's position is changing moment to moment. bottom line this morning, if you're leaving the bahamas to come to the united states, will you be let into the country? >> you need a passport or visa. let's turn to another story. "the new york times" reports that commerce secretary wilber ross threatened to fire political staff at noaa if the agency did not fix its contradiction with president trump's claim that hurricane dorian might hit alabama. the times reports ross called the acting administrator of noaa from greece last friday to instruct him to, quote, fix the agency's perceived contradiction of the president. tultly l it ultimately led to the noaa issuing a statement which called national weather service in birmingham inconsistent. they told nbc news ross did not threatsen to fire any noaa staff over forecasting in public statements about hurricane dorian. noaa acting chief scientist craig mcclain says he's investigating why the agency backed trump's claims about hurricane dorian potentially hitting alabama over its own forecasters. according to an internal email obtained by nbc news, mcclain wrote sunday that an unsigned friday statement issued by noaa which defended trump's claim, quote, inappropriately and incorrectly contradicted the national weather service forecaster. the statement referred to a tweet issued by the national weather service birmingham, alabama, office last week which pushed back on the president's claim that the state was in the path of the storm. meanwhile, the director of the national weather service defended the birmingham forecasters who contradicted trump at the group's annual gathering yesterday. >> the birmingham office has [ inaudible ] to ensure public safety. the same call as all the national weather service offices were working toward at that time. so [ inaudible ] by asking and the birmingham employees that were present to please stand and be recognized. >> so, jonathan lemire, this is just extraordinary. you have the commerce secretary traveling abroad in greece tending to the company's business calling back to the noaa and saying the national weather service correctly, by the way, the office in birmingham came out and said, alabama, don't worry, despite what the president tweeted you are not in the path of this storm telling the noaa to direct the national weather service to fix this mistake. in other words, you might be correct, but you crossed the president so fix it to be incorrect. >> for a day or two the president's sort of obsession that he was right about this forecast that alabama was in the pamg of this hurricane was treated as an amusing little story, the sharpy on the map and that sort of thing. first of all, you have a government, sort of an unprecedented amount of federal government intervention here threatening staffers trying to reverse engineer the data points to prove in some ways the president was correct. and also, you know, using the powers of the government to try to back up what's clearly a false claim. but in this case, for leaning on the national forecast, the weather forecast that potentially undermines the credibility of this agency that is giving out warnings to people who would be in the path of a storm. and that's just -- that crosses the line here that you have people -- this is an agency that will put out these bulletins that people are relying on to make decisions about their life and their home when they're in the path of a storm. and now there's going to be an issue can we trust these or are they being pressured to back up what the president is saying over what is true? certainly that tweet from that national weather service outpoift outpost in birmingham has fueled a lot of the anger about the forecast and his relentless defensiveness of what he said. we were surprised it didn't come up at the rally last night. he we prior to the rally were in north carolina. he was meant do inspection of the hurricane damage there on the coast but a major thunderstorm rolled through and we were able to and the president and the press pool we were dprounded on tgrounded on . but this is something that i week later he's obsessed with and it could cost people their jobs. >> it's getting worse for the president. of course as the chief scientist said for noaa that we're talking about lives that are at risk here. if people stop actually depending on weather reports, if weather reports get political. the president can call fake news all he wants to and a lot of people don't follow the news day in and day out, i certainly understand that. they've got their lives to live, jobs to worry about. weather reports, most americans follow the weather report and they know when the president's lying to them about weather. and gene robinson, i want to show you the rest of the vo from the distrirector of the nationa weather service. when he finished saluting them for doing their jobs, he got a standing ovation from the audience. a clear sign that these people connected with the national weather service and meteorologists and scientists, they're not unlike republicans in washington, d.c., unlike cowardly politicians, they're not going to be cowed by somebody that insists that they don't believe their lying eyes. >> that's right. you know, a couple of things. first, there are a lot of people in the federal government, not just the weather service, but economic forecasters, people who study the demographics of the country, people who study poverty and income and all that stuff, these are -- they produce numbers that have to be accurate and that they -- these are experts who do their very best to provide accurate information to -- to the president and to the american people. and the idea that -- that this scientific information can be distorted because of the whim and the ego of an unbalanced president who can never be wrong in his own head is -- is outrageous to them. and i think you will see a whole lot more pushback. we've already seen a lot of pushback, but you'll see mo are from inside t more from inside the government. everybody understands the government. maybe not everybody wants to follow the twists and turns of the airport near turnberry and how exactly that enriches donald trump and this and that and we can explain it and it's a five-step thing. but everybody understands the weather. everybody has to deal with the weather. and believe me, everybody in those southeastern states knows how important those national hurricane center forecasts are and knows how to read those maps. >> yeah, they do. >> all right. we're going to have to take a break. but willie, is julia ainslie still there? >> you're darn right she is. >> something's a little different, willie, have you noticed? maybe you haven't, you can't tell, right? >> i was tipped off earlier this morning but i'll let you make the announcement. >> you were tipped off. julia, when you were covering the mueller surprise press conference a few months ago i noticed something a little different. you want to talk about that moment? >> you did, mika. you were probably the most eagle eye observer that day. there was a surprise press conference that robert mueller called to the justice department. i ran down there and in the middle of coverage i got pretty sick and had to run down. >> yes. >> the street and got sick in the bushes outside the justice department. >> oh my god. >> and i immediately when i came back to my phone had a text from you that said, are you pregnant? and. >> yes. >> i said yes but don't -- my parents don't even know yet. well, mika knew and i'm expecting a baby girl in january. >> all right. >> oh my gosh, that's so exciting. all right. >> yea? >> you are next. kasie hunt check, julia on deck. we have that moment, we'll show it at know your value.com morning sickness on live television and tell your story. julia, thank you. >> thank you. >> and welcome to the know your value community, we'll there for you. >> appreciate it. coming up, new polling shows a majority of americans are worried about a recession. what does that mean for president trump whose biggest argument for re-election has been a strong economy? we'll dig into the new numbers ahead on "morning joe." into thes ahead on "morning joe. we call it the mother standard of care. it's how we care for our cancer patients- like job. when he was diagnosed with cancer, his team at ctca created a personalized care plan to treat his cancer and side effects. so job could continue to work and stay strong for his family. this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal. we love you, daddy. good night. i love you guys. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. cancer treatment centers of america. but in my mind i'm still 25. that's why i take osteo bi-flex, to keep me moving the way i was made to. it nourishes and strengthens my joints for the long term. osteo bi-flex - now in triple strength plus magnesium. ♪ ♪ ♪ applebee's handcrafted burgers now starting at $7.99 now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. now starting at $7.99 know what more shrimp!ith steak and shrimp? and you know what goes great with that shrimp? steak and unlimited shrimp! and this year, with two freshly made sides, you'll get more than you imagined. hurry into outback now for our steak and unlimited shrimp. outback steakhouse so much more than i could have imagined. >> and welcome to the know your we'll dig into the new numbers >> and welcome to the know your we'll dig into the new numbers his father was a miner, they were immigrants from italy and somewhere along the way that man changed his name and transformed himself into a successful mid-century american man. he had a whole life that i didn't know anything about. he was just my beloved grandpa. bring your family history to life like never before. get started for free at ancestry.com an update now on a story we've been covering out of mara lag doe. it's a trial of a chinese business woman charged with lying to a secret service agent and trespassing at president trump's mar-a-lago club was bizarrely diverted yesterday when the defendant told the judge she was wearing brown jail garb because she had not been provided any underwear. defendants generally wear civilian clothing during trials to avoid prejudice by jurors. after some discussion of over which agency was responsible, 33-year-old zhang was taken to a holding cell and was allowed to change into an outfit found in her hotel room after her march arrest. zhang was arrested after she allegedly lied to get past a secret service agent guarding mar-a-lago carrying a computer, a hard drive, four cell phones and a thumb drive. president trump was also staying at his resort that weekend but was at his nearby golf club when she arrives. prosecutors have filed under seal secret evidence that they say has national security implications. even though she is not charged with espionage. she is acting as her own attorney during the federal trial and faces up to six years if convicted. joining us now, state attorney for palm beach county. dave, what can we glean before this national security implications about this evidence? what in the world could it be? >> well, there's a lot to unpack there. when i heard the case of the missing underwear i thought maybe the suspects would be the infamous underpants nomes from a south park episode. but when it comes to ms. zhang, think she's more just someone who's a wanna be spy who probably wasn't trained by the chinese government. because when she got into mar-a-lago she gave three different explanations as to why she was there. had she got in she told the golf cart shuttle driver she didn't know where she was going. in her case she may have been just some sort of freelancer looking to sell her photos to the chinese government as part of some street intelligence. i mean, if she was a spy she would make maxwell smart look like james bond. she's not obviously a very good one. >> so, dave, let me ask you the two charges, trespassing and lying to the secret service with a potential penalty of six years. which of those charges would bring six years for lying to a secret service agent or trespassing? >> it's the lying. that's the one that's punishable up to five years. the trespass is punishable up to one year. she probably scores a lot less. she's already served five months in pretrial detention, which would count against any sflns that seis imposed. she may not get any jail time when it's all done. this may be part some of sort of amateur operation where the china nez governme chinese government is testing us. back in february there was a college student from china sentenced to a year when he was caught sniffing around a naval station in key west. we're unsure of what's going on here, but it may be a case of someone who is infatuated with the president, who has spent thousands of dollars traveling around to all his different properties and wanted to be somebody back at home. and getting caught as a -- that's why think she's acting a fool right now in trial, he's obstructing justice in her actions. the issue of the underwear and all these things, she may want to go home as a martyr claiming i didn't get a fair trial, i'm innocent, i didn't even have a lawyer who represented me. i didn't even have a set of clothes to wear. that may be a better story for her back at home than the reality that she may just be a bumbling wanna be spy. >> all right. i want to ask about the college admissions scandal. we haven't covered that story in a long time and felicity huffman, the actress faced a sentencing hearing. what -- what is the type of sentence that she might get? what do you think she should get? and i'd also like to hear what's ahead for the other actress involved, lori laughlioughlin. >> felicity huffman, despite the fact she was the first one to cut a plea deal and remorse, is still facing a month in prison. that's got to make lori loughlin think she's not going to take a plea gooel deal because her behavior was arguably worse. lorly loughlin and her husband paid out allegedly $500,000 to get letter two daughters into usc. and so it's hard to tell what the final sentence would be for both of them, but i think that there needs to be some sort of incarceration for both of them because otherwise this would just encourage future wealthy parents to go ahead and try to bribe their kids into college. because then the penalty is what? a financial slap on the wrist? and it's, in my experience, a state attorney, that the best deterrent for this kierchd conduct is a pair of handcuffs and a jail cell. that's why i agree with the federal prosecutors when they recommended a month in jail. and in their sentencing memo, i'll leave you with this, they said that this was a crime that was predicated on wealth and facilitated by a sense of privilege and the great leveller is incarceration. >> it's certainly not money. >> right. >> which that would make no sense, you're right. dave, thank you so much. >> thank you, dave. >> and eugene robinson, thank you as well. we'll be reading your piece in the "washington post" entitled help those suffering in the bahamas. make sure they have a viable future too. >> amen. coming up, the president's approval rating falls as more americans expect the u.s. economy to fall into a recession. plus, trump rallies voters in north carolina ahead of today's special election there that could be a bell weather for 2020. morning show is back in a moment. or 2020 morning show is back in a moment johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. i require no response from you. i require no response from you. i require no response from you, young man. i require no response from you. get out, man. you will not be -- >> oh, my. a look at the chaos in the uk as conservatives followed prime minister boris johnson in walking out of parliament to chants of shame on you after opposition lawmakers tried to physically block the speaker from standing up and leaving his seat in a move their predecessors also tried some 400 years ago. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, september 10th. still with joe, willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike ba, white house reporter to the associated press, jonathan lemire, and join the conversation senior adviser at move on.org and msnbc contributor careen jean pierre. and director of domestic policy studies at stanford university and research fellow at hoover institution, great to have you all. >> willie, we have to start with parliament. >> oh my kbogosh. >> it's usually been a great show. it's the greatest show on earth right now. the speaker yesterday announced that he was going to be resigning at the end of the term and then yesterday the fact that you had opposition people blocking him and sitting on him practically to stop him from getting up and leaving because parliament can't close until the speaker gets up and walks out, that was enough. but it was so acrimonious. but the big story here is boris johnson, kind of cocky fellow, i guess you could say, and it ain't bragging as dizzy dean said, if you can do it. unfortunately for boris johnson, he can't do it. he has set the record for ineptitude of premierships in british history. he has lost his first six votes. as they tweeted here it seems easier with cheap seats but now he has lost by losing first six votes of premiership, divided his country and caused his own fwrorth least party and lost the duke of wellington. and my favorite quote out of all of this is one british commentators said that his brother left government because he wanted to spend less time with his family. >> that's sbounounds about righ. he's had six losses in the space two of weeks. he's only been prime minister for seven weeks. an inauspicious beginning. the whole point of his prime ministership is brexit and it looks like that october 31st deadline is going to come and go so then what? he looks to be seven weeks in out of options at this point about the b. i was watching that and if this were a movie the director might stop and say you're doing a bit heavy on the british. but it is the best show in global politics, isn't it? >> it's pretty fascinating. a lot at stake there. but -- >> look at this. >> -- the positioning that boris johnson is taking is so extreme that even conservatives in britain who support brexit can't get along with a no deal brexit because they think that the consequences could be too damaging for britain. so he's put himself into a corner and he -- it looks now like he's tearing his party to shreds doing it. >> the imextplications for the economy for greater britain and europe, the economy of the united states are affected as well. these are all significant issues. stumbling into the situation he stumbled into, the question is how does he get his way out? where is the exit path? if there isn't an exit path, here in the united states we have to be cognizant of the fact how do things look here? and the u.s. economy, one of the topics we'll talk about in 2020 to continue to grow and be successful if the global headwinds get stiffer, when it looks like they will coming out of uk. >> until he figures out how to work with parliament, until he figures out how to work with the eu to come up with a deal, so there can ab i glide path out of brexit or at least not a crash landing, he's going to continue to have the problems that he has. it's not just about brexit, because, again, a lot of the conservatives who are now opposing him support brexit. but a no-deal brexit would be disastrous they believe for britain, for europe, and would be disastrous for the world economy. >>. well, new polling from the "washington post," an abc news shows president trump's approval rating has dipped with 56% of u.s. adults now saying they disapprove of his performance in office. the poll finds trump's economic approval also in decline, down five points from early july to 46%. and while more than half still rate the economy positively, 60% believe a recession is likely in the next year. i wonder if that sort of reflects consumer confidence in some ways, just people feeling concerned about the economy. >> yeah. i don't know. mika, was it banana rama that sang cruel, cruel summer? >> i'm embarrassed i don't know that. alex corson confirms that it was. and the soundtrack for karate kid. >> i think it may have been the soundtrack for karate kid. >> what's the point? >> the point is this. lanhee for the past couple of weeks we've been talking about how bad this summer has been for donald trump politically that a lot of people in the mainstream media, a lot of liberals and life-long democrats think that because donald trump shocked them so much in 2016 that he has some magic voodoo powers. and whatever he does, they're somehow pulling the wool over his eyes and they don't get it. sometimes stupid is just stupid. drawing sharp hiss on weather maps or leading fascist chants in what a lot of people claim would be fascist chants send her back and you look over the course of the summer it seems like he's had one forced error over another unforced error. and you see in this "washington post" poll his approval rating drops from 44%, pretty good for donald trump, down 38% in september. it's been a tough summer for him for a -- and a lot of political self-inflicted wounds. >> yeah. you know, i think that's the thing probably that frustrates republicans on capitol hill the most is that a lot of this is, indeed, self-inflicted. look, i think that number dipping below 40 is still an important threshold. i think, though, the mower worrisome number for the white house and probably for the president's campaign is the handling of the economy. because that is going to be and has been the essence of the president's messaged at essence of his case for re-election. because, you know, he's always sort of broadly had these issues with popularity, the question really becomes how do people think he's handled the economy? you heard last night in the campaign rally in north carolina i think that the president really in some ways, the approval rating almost doesn't matter overall because is he going to make this a very stark contrast between what the democrats are proposing and what he is proposing. and to the exextetent that he c keep that line as bright as possible and if the democrats continue to push left, it gives him the essence of an argument that goes beyond the economy. you're starting to see that now because with the handling of the economy numbers being where they are, it should be concerning for the administration. >> jonathan lemire, we see the outward confidence from the president. we see the outward confidence from this white house. they point to signs in the economy that remain strong, that he's confident he'll be re-elected. we saw it again last night at that rally in north carolina. but you can't look at poll after poll that shows you between 37% and 42%, 43% consistently, never cracking 50% as president and feel terribly confident about the way the country's feeling about you. do you see any cracks privately in your conversations inside the white house in terms of that confidence for re-election? you're certainly right that outwardly the president is swaggering and boastful and we heard it at the rally last night. but people around him are concerned and the president has expressed private worry about the economy. that has been, as was just discussed, that has always been his number one argument for re-election. that he would -- he ties his fortunes to the stock market in an unprecedented way. when tss itit's been doing well quick to boast about it. people around him know it provides some cover for republicans or independents who don't like the racist rhetoric or the divisive policies. but this is why they can hold their nose and vote for him because he's good economy. if that argument goes away, they know they're in trouble. what we're seeing here is that an attempt to highlight other issues. as much as he's defending his handling of the economy, most notably the china trade war, though certainly an argument could be made that's a self-inflicted wound dragging him down right now. we saw his attempt to paint democrats as the party of the extreme left. he even at one moment said they were the america-hating left. he is, as lanhee just said trying to draw the contrast between what he can offere and the democrats can over. the democrats are perhaps overplaying their hand and are risking going too far to the left allowing the president to paint them as socialists or other terms. and suggest -- play to the middle of the american public who might not like him but are afraid of what could come next. >> so careen jean tee, a, the approval ratings that we just looked at, it could lead to the possibility that there might be some republicans who think, i'm not going vote for trump. and my question to you would be, is joe biden the only democrat that a republican who's perhaps losing page this president would fee safe voting for and is that a problem when you look at the entire field? >> i don't think so. >> who else. >> we've seen the head to head polls and seen five democratic candidates who beat donald trump in a general election match to match. >> but i'm asking -- i'm asking what democrat besides joe biden would a republican who voted for trump feel safe voting for if they were looking for an alternative? i think it's joe biden but my worry is it's only joe biden. they're not going to vote for elizabeth warren. >> so here's the thing about elizabeth warren that i have the view on. it's like we have to remember elizabeth warren was, you know, a republican longer than she was a democrat. she's from oklahoma. she's able to -- she's taking her policy and has taken it to purple states and red states. and if you hear from folks who attended those -- some of those town halls that she's held, in particular in ohio, they actually like what she is selling, what she's putting forth. so i actually don't truly believe that biden is the only one. i do believe that we have other candidates out there, especially, like i said, when you look at those head to head matchups and i always say it's still very early, we just don't know. but going to the economy for a second, mika, look, i think what democrats need to do is they have to make sure that they show the failures of this president. and lanhee was right. the approval numbers may not matter because it's a negative race, this is what donald trump is going to do in the again election. but that economy number going down, that is really key. they have to show that donald trump has a i abandoned farmers. he has thrown he has thrown the middle class folks under the bus. like they have to make sure they make that contrast. talk about the trade war. talk about all the things that donald trump has promised and has not delivered on. and the economy is going to be key because, as we know, that has been what donald trump has said and his campaign has believed, that they were going really win on is the economy. and right now with numbers at polling after polling after polling people are just not confident with how donald trump is taking this country when it comes to the economy. >> so we look at these numbers, elise jordan, let's now move to the republican party and possible challengers for donald trump. yesterday liz mayer wrote an article saying mark san froford provides a heck of a contrast to donald trump. he is the conservatives conservative. he's the sort of small government conservative that actually was in washington when i was in washington. and unlike all the other people or most of the other people who served with me, sanford never changed. he's a fiscal conservative. he believes in free trade. he believes in the sorts of the things that republicans have always claimed to believe in. and i just wonder looking toward, let's say, new hampshire there's been some unease with donald trump up there, suddenly you look at these approval ratings, you look at the numbers on the economy and you start wondering can somebody like mark sanford pull, you know, 40% like gene mccarthy did in '68 that ended lbj's campaign or pat buchanan did in 1992 that forever crippled george h.w. bush's campaign or what happened with bob dole. suddenly as these numbers go down, the possibilities for sanford and some of these other republicans to really cut into his vote totals. >> you know, a common thing, joe, that i've observed over the last two years going around the country doing focus groups for the ash kroft in america project is republican voters are tolerating donald trump, but they definitely would flirt with another option. sometimes you wonder, oh, maybe this is just because we're in new hampshire and we're hearing that and they're used to having so much undue influence on the primary process. but then going across the country heard it in minnesota, you're hearing it in iowa, you're hearing it in arizona. and so i think there is a level of fundamental dissatisfaction with donald trump's personal attributes that's tolerated as long as the economy's strong. and i hope that there isn't a recession, but if i had to look at the economic indicators right now, i would say that it's probably the economy's as good as it's going to get during trump's presidency. i really hope i'm wrong on that projection and that the economy grows and grows and grows. but, if you're looking at historical trends and cycles, it's probably not going to get any better than this. so donald trump further makes the economic -- the economy weaker by his trade war with china and tweeting crazy things that, you know, rules the market, voters are going notice. and so i think that mark sanford is an important person to join the race just to provide the contrast with donald trump who is anything but a conservative or a republican. >> well, yeah. and it's interesting that when we were down at ole miss last year the republicans -- and i was surprised -- the republicans that all supported donald trump, when you brought up -- i said what if nikki haley ran against donald trump in a primary? what if mike presenence ran aga donald trump in a primary would you consider voting and almost every person said yes. so let's talk about the economy right now and god help us if we have another recession, because if you look at both fiscal policy and monetary policy, we've pretty much used most of the arrows that we have to sort of punch up the economy. you see what's happening in china. their economy's going down. you look at the struggles that germany's having. you look at the struggles that other countries across the globe are having. it is -- these are darker times, the jobs report in america was below what most economists expected this past month. if you read the financial times, if you read "the wall street journal," so many people are really fearing a global recession. what are your thoughts on that and what can donald trump do? what should donald trump do to try to avoid a coming recession? >> joe, i'd say the biggest enemy of our economy and the global economy right now is probably uncertainty. and that is something that, you know, unfortunately with all the dialogue on the trade negotiation with china, what we're seeing coming out of brexit, what we talked about at the beginning of the hour, these are all things that fuel uncertainty. and that is the biggest enemy of, i think, of economic growth and of the stability of the u.s. economy going forward. you're right, i think unfortunately a lot of the tools certainly of fiscal policy have been exhausted. and we don't expect a whole lot more there because it's going require the congress to act. and i just don't see the congress acting further on the economy. when it comes to monetary policy, the fed is going to act probably on rates here in a couple weeks. i don't see them acting a whole lot more between now and the election. and so really the question is what happens globally? the headwinds are very strong coming out of asia. weak economies there. the chinese economy is a lot weaker than the chinese want to let on. we've got headwinds out of europe with what's happening in the uk but also in broader and greater europe you're seeing economic slowdowns. here in the u.s., the big challenge, as i said, is you need certainty. people in business need certainty to plan around. they need to be able to show what they want to do in terms of capital expenditures going into next year. in the absence of that economic certainty, joe, it's going to be very difficult for this economy to continue to grow. the labor market is actually a lagging indicator. so if the labor market begins to show kiens signs of weakness, t probably is going to be the last in the sequence. we have to be very careful going into the last quart of this year a quarter of this year and first quarter of last year. >> confidence of ceos is down, taking a steep decline. investment from companies going down, showing a steep decline. all again, in consumer confidence starting to go down. not as dramatically as ceo confidence. but you really do see that it is the chaos. and i think it was jeb bush that called -- jeb bush i think it was that called donald trump the chaos candidate are t. right now he's the chaos commander and chief and the impact that's having for small and large businesses alike is causing a drag on the aeneconom and just may hurt american workers if he doesn't bring some stability to this process soon and stop with the bellicose rhetoric and the trade wars that are really damaging the world economy. >> not just the policy. >> they're damaging us. >> his overall behavior. this alabama thing, all these things are extremely discomforting to people who are looking for a leader to lead. and value the truth. lanheee ch chen, thank you so m. still coming up, quote, she said. it's the title of a new book "the new york times" reporters who broke the harvey weinstein story and opened the flood gates to so much more. jodi kantor and megan two o meg next on "morning joe." megan jos next on "morning joe." i get it all the time. 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[honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: ...so she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ my body is truly powerful. i have the power to lower my blood sugar and a1c. because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates my body to release it like it's supposed to. trulicity is for people with type 2 diabetes. it's not insulin. i take it once a week. it starts acting in my body from the first dose. trulicity isn't for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. don't take trulicity if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. taking trulicity with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, belly pain and decreased appetite, which lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. i have it within me to lower my a1c. since "the new york times" published the sexual harassment allegations against harvey weinstein all most two years ago, more than 80 women, 80, have come forward accusing the hollywood movie producer of sexual misconduct. weinstein has denied any allegations of nonconsensual sex and has pleaded not guilty to sexual assault charges in new york where he is set to go on trial in january. this was such a huge story and opened the doors. joining us now, the two reporters who brought to life the allegations against weinstein which is widely seen to have sparked the me too movement. pulitzer prize winners and investigate greattive reporters "the new york times," jodi kantor and megan twohey. they are coauthors of the new book "she said" breaking the story that helped ignite a movement. and once again, congratulations on the book and these stories. joe. >> so, i just want to ask jodi and megan just sort of a view from 30,000 feet on that movement that was started, you know, as woodward and bernstein were to watergate, you two were in large part the me too movement. how much of that movement do you think was fueled by not just your reporting but also with the election of donald trump and the charges against donald trump that basically went ignored? have you all -- you all talk about that? have you talked about that over the past couple of years? how much does that -- does that add toxicity to the environment that made a lot of women decide i have to come forward? >> well, it's interesting because, you know, what we're doing f doing in this book we're trying to bring you behind the scenes and show you the original communications with sources, the texts, and the emails because this story has turned out to mean so much to so many people. and in regards to trump, on the one hand there were certainly a rising tide of frustration by women about these allegations. megan was actually one of the first reporters to talk in print about -- about trump allegedly crossing the line with women. and megan covered those women's complaints and then watched him be elected. so certainly we watched, you know, we're journists, not activists, so we watched the women's march from afar as it played out in january, 2018. but then a few months later when we were on the phone with sources about weinstein, the trump factor kind of cut both ways for them. on the one hand, they could certainly feel that there was something in the air, that there was in rising tide that had to do with bill o'reilly and bill cosby. but on the other hand, what some sources said i can't go on the record with you because it doesn't matter who when you tell these stories. donald trump was elected president anyway and why should i take the risk of airing these problems publicly when nothing changes when you do? >> you guys write megan about the system set up to protect harvey weinstein. i'm curious about overall culture and how much culture has changed as this story was broken and so many others came tumbling down as well. what walls did you hit in your report thong story and what walls were your able to break down. >> one of the things that we realized was our first article on harvey weinstein was just the beginning. we had started to piece together, connect some of the dots. since then we've been able to piece together so many other pieces of the puzzle. and i think that's what's come into sharper view was this machinery that was in place to silence the women and try to block our investigation. that included some surprising figures like the feminist attorney lisa bloom. there was also we wanted to probe the question of complicity. there were individuals and institutions who glimpsed weinstein's behavior over the years and saw the allegations of misconduct against him, individuals institutions including his own company. and we really pushed in to try to examine who knew what when and what did they try to do, including weinstein's own brother bob weinstein who opened up to s the first time to talk about the enabling role that he played. another thing we wanted to examine was the issue of secret settlements. these apply not just to some of weinstein's victims, to victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault across the country. so often women will come forward and say this just happened to me want to do something about it and their lawyers all too often will steer them into these settlements in which they basically are sentenced in exchange for money. they're told this is the only option. so so many of the women we went to as we were trying to track down this story were legally prohibited from telling us what had happened to them. and those systems are still in place today. so i think that while there has bane l been a lot of cultural shift and weinstein was ousted from his own company, he's going on criminal trial, there's a lot of systemic questions that we all have to grapple with. >> one of the headlines that's jumping out of this amazing back that's out today, she said that again edge paltrow was a key to your investigation. she was on the inside, won the oscar with harvey weinstein for shakespeare in love. can you talk a little bit about the role she played? >> when she started this investigation she was barely on our our list of people to call. you don't think gwyneth paltrow victim. we also never thought we would be able to reach her. low and behold a few weeks into the investigation we got a tip. not only was she very honest with us and confided in us, the story she had held close for a long time, which is that at the very start of her career when she had two important roles on the line, what she says is that weinstein sexually harassed her. he tried to end a meeting, sort of conventional business meeting by suggesting that they go into the bedroom for massages. but he threatened her, which is just as important. because what we all have to understand about this story is that the theme with weinstein is the allegation of using work as a tool of coercion. and so she was very worried that she would lose these roles. she felt she had to be silent for a long time. so not only did she tell us this story at a time when very few people in hollywood were willing to pick up the phone to us, but she really helped our investigation. she politely asked me for tips on investigative journalism and we talked about who she should contact. and she set about all of that summer contacting other actress who's she thought might talk to us. even for gwyneth it was very hard to get people to talk. and weinstein became increasingly obsessed with the question of whether she was speaking to us at night. at one point we got a series of panicked phone calls and texts from her because had he shown up early to a party to her house and she was hiding upstairs in the bathroom afraid he was going to try to confront her. >> that was an extraordinary scene, the story you tell where he gets there early, right, before -- was he even invited to the party? >> he was not invited to the party. >> but he shows up at her house. >> he invited himself, basically. >> right. >> and so she called me when she knew that he wanted to come, this was, i don't know, a week or two ahead of time and said what should i do? as a reporter you can't really tell your source what's do but you can sort of hear them out. and what she decided is she said i'm going to let him come to the party because otherwise it's a tip-off that i'm talking to you. so i was very nervous that day in general about how things would go. and then low and behold, he shows up early. and she's feeling very frozen, very sure not wa what ha to say. and as a journalist we're not looking at her as this huge celebra celebrity, we're look at her as a source with a lot of information that could go on the record. so we were very worried and thought we're going to lose her. she's not going stay committed to this. but she did. she was very afraid go on the record for the first story, but she was right there for the second story. and i think her coming forward had a really big impact both because of her stature and also because of something really disturbing we all found out later which is that many weinstein victims say that he had invoked gwyneth in the course of what rasing or assaulting other people. >> good for her for stepping up and doing that. megan, it speaks to the power of harvey weinstein that even gwyneth paltrow, this person we see as this famous, accomplished, beautiful wealthy actress, presumably powerful in hollywood, even she had reservations about crossing him. >> that's right. there was a moment where we weren't sure if we were going to get anybody on the record. we were three months into our reporting when we had sort of the hushed meeting with our editor over a drink at a bar in midtown manhattan and we spelled out all the information that we had gathered. and she said is anybody on the record? and at that point we had to say no, not yet. she said well do you don't have a publishable story. so another thing we wanted to do is illustrate the power this man had to maintain secrecy, like this cloak of secrecy for years. >> so let me try the flip side of that, although i certainly don't want to be in the position of -- because i think it's amazing that she shared that story and became such a helpful source to you all. but given her power on the international stage, why didn't she speak up sooner? did she struggle with that? >> it was hard for really everybody to go on the record. nobody wanted to break the silence. in gwyneth's case, part of what was hard was that she really wanted to do it. she had been explicited to tcom summer but we published before we thought we would. and she went to the close people in her life, friends, family pleb members, she said this is what i might do. and everyone said don't do it. there sore many good reasons not to go on the ready, and we fw s understand that. women who are ahaasharassed, wh they have to make this report of making the statement or report in their own offices which could be difficult as well. >> i want to understand beyond sexually harassing her and trying to get her to move into a massage room, what kind of threat are we talking about? >> so the threat was she was cast in ema, which was a really big deal. was that a star-making role. that was a really substantial female lead. she had been cast but the movie hadn't been shot. and when he called her to berate her for having told brad pitt who was her boyfriend at the time, what she says is that he threatened her and says something you're going to screw everything up, you're going to lose your whole career, this is going to ruin everything. >> wow. >> so -- so like a lot of -- she's a more famous example, but she has a lot in common with other weinstein victims we've spoken to. because so many of them, including former assistants, they had ambitions and dreams. they wanted opportunity. and so that is part of what weinstein was able to exploit. >> weinstein's role manipulating the press is so central to this book and to why he was able to abuse and go along as a predator for so many years without -- without notice until you really pursued the story. how was the media complicit in helping harvey weinstein clamp down on bad stories? and i know that he pressured you at the end and tried to keep you from airing your reporting and losing the scoop. so what role should -- how can media better cover these kind of stories? >> listen, i think that's a great question. the american media, the parent company to "national enquirer" has received a lot of attention for the role that it played in helping donald trump cover up his sort of secret affairs with women, allegedly secret affairs with women, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. and what we realized in the course of our reporting and one of the things that's come out is that american media also helped harvey weinstein. it basically put to work some of its reporters to dig up dirt on some of the accusers that he thought might go public with allegations. so i think that's actually one of the most remarkable cases of complicity in all of this and that america media should still be held accountabletor that. a for that. so when it came to weinstein's attempts to manipulate "the new york times," he came in with high-powered attorneys, he had david boise by his side trying to pump the brakes on this investigation, and he also had this privacy investor firm made up of former israeli intelligence officials that basically had a contract against us that wa it wit was going to d a $300,000 bonus if it could put a stop tour investigation. but in the end the truth and facts won. >> people read these stories that have impact, huge impact on our culture from people reading them. but people also assumed all of this happened in the past year, two years. this went on for a long, long period of time. if you could, talk about the protective screen around him. around harvey weinstein. and i just happened to open the book, by the way, it's an enormously unbelievably well-reported book. >> thank you. >> i just happen to open it to a letter from har vie weinstein to david boise about his daughter's movie career. that's part of what we're talking about, isn't it, that protective screen? >> david had actually worked with harvey weinstein going back to 2002. he was, if you're looking at the assortment of lawyers who were by weinstein's side, david was the closest. hes watt go-to person the had his assistants have described him calling david sometimes as many as ten times a day. >> much more than a lawyer to him. >> much, much more than a lawyer. and we've known that. we knee knew davw david was then the allegations against him as early as 2002 when "the new yorker" was starting to piece together some allegations of sexual assault against him. david went into the office and tried to talk them -- successfully helped talk them out of it. and then even in 2015 when his company -- when weinstein's company was trying to scrutinize him and was increasingly concerned, david was blocking them from looking at his personnel file. and we've sort of known that, but what we realized in the course of our reporting was that their relationship was much tighter than attorney client. they also were discussing -- david was interested in getting into the film industry and they even had these email exchanges in which they were talking about potential roles for david's daughter, an aspiring actress. >> but i also want to point out that megan is talking about, you know, these sort of corridors of power, right? the movie business, high-powered lawyers, et cetera, et cetera. but there's also i think something so relatable about this material for the rest of us that deals with our own offices and our own lives. another document in the book is this really pleading letter from bob weinstein, harvey's brother, that megan obtained. it's super brother to brother. it's super private. bob weinstein is confronting harvey and saying for, you know, for all of these years you have brought shame on our family and our company. you know, you haven't addressed these problems. he's talking about a variety of problems, including workplace abuse, but he also appears -- he uses the word sexual, he talks about your wife and children. so he clearly appears to be referencing sexual transgressions as well. and i think there are just questions for all of us about, you know, if you see something that's wrong, what do you say? how do you say it? how far do you need to go? where do you stop? and that's a genuine moral dilemma that we see cropping up in these me too cases again and again and again. >> and bob sent that letter in 2015, a couple years before your reporting. so obviously this was on a lot of people's radar before you even brought it to skbliet that light. >> it was one of the questions when we came out of weinstein story. that this was his brother, only sibling. they were in business together for decades during the time he was engaging this this alleged predatory behavior. what did bob know? when did he know it? what did he try to do about it? he finally opened up to us in a series of interviews that he was able to explain that he was aware of acc san diegos of sexual assault and harassment against his brother. he like many people chose to believe him when he said it was extramarital affairs and nothing more. and he was also informed by -- he also adopted a rationale that was rooted in his own personal experience with substance abuse and recovery which was that he chose to view his brother's problem as sex addiction. so in this 2015 letter he is -- intimate letter that he writes to his brother, he's pleading with him to get treatment for sex addiction. and -- but clearly we produce that letter in its entirety so that readers can see for themselves and ponder the question of what do you do when you get glimpses of a problem and how do people become complicit. >> this is incredible. nbc news reached out to harvey weinstein for a reaction to the new book and received a statement from his defense attorney that reads in part, quote, she says is all you need to know to appreciate that this book contains one sided allegations without having adequately investigated the facts of each situation. there is very different side to every story. yeah. so the one thing i'll say is that you all have created a space that created more spaces for women to come forward and actually tell their stories. and that has been one of the most important parts of this movement is giving went space to speak out. the book is "she said" breaking the sexual harassment story that helped ignite a movement. jodi kantor and megan twohey, thank you so much. >> thank you for having us. >> good to have you on. coming up, another new polling out this morning showing joe biden with a double-digit lead over his 2020 democratic rivals. those new numbers are ahead. plus, president trump and his allies say the ongoing trade war is not affecting americans, only china. but why, then, is the usda paying billions of dollars, billions, to american farmers for trade relief? 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"the washington post" has published a new article calling former vice president joe biden and senator elizabeth warren as frenemies. even crazier, they referred to john delaney and michael bennet as candidates. live look at capitol hill. welcome back to "morning joe." joe biden continues to lead the democratic primary field, according to the newest morning consult poll out this hour. biden at 33% is 12 points ahead of the crowded democratic primary field. senator bernie sanders sits at second place at 21%, and senator elizabeth warren rounds up the top three with 16% of democratic voters' supports. morning consult also polled voters in just the early primary states of iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and nevada. the top three remain the same while mayor pete buttigieg jumps up to fourth at 6%. also notable is businessman tom steyer, who jumps up to sixth with 4%. meanwhile, signs of a weakening economy have put the business community on edge, but donald trump will not let go of his favorite bragging points, saying the media made up the recession thing to hurt his re-election campaign. this as treasury secretary steve mnuchin says the trade war hasn't hurt the american side. >> and they tried to do the recession thing. you know, they tried the russia thing, that didn't work. they tried many other things. i always say, the media and their partner, the democrats. [ crowd reacts ] i wouldn't mind fighting the democrats, but we really have to look at it as a twosome. it's the media and the democrats. it's one and the same. we're rebuilding our military, defending our sovereignty, and reclaiming our dignity as a nation. america is winning again! and america is respected again. they respect america. >> it's fair to say it's impacted the chinese economy. we we have not yet seen any impact on the u.s. economy. >> joining us now, msnbc's stephanie ruhle. stephanie, can you explain the recession thing? where does the economy stand now? what are the signs we're seeing? >> mika, first of all, no one is cheering on a recession. to say to people, you might want to bring an umbrella because it could rain outside is simply responsible. there's no partnership between the media and the democrats, but when you actually look at the data and say we have been in a ten-year economic expansion, we are seeing a global slowdown, whether you're talking about issues around brexit, issues in asia, you've got nine economies that could potentially face a recession. there's a big difference between a recession, which is a normal cycle, and a crisis. no one is talking about a crisis. so whether it's the president saying, we're making this up, or steve mnuchin flat-out lying when he says the u.s. economy has not felt the impact of the trade war, give me a break! we have an $18 billion farm paid bailout. why would we be doing that if there was no impact? >> kareen, jump in here, obviously, there's a political impact if the economy starts to really show signs of weakening. >> i think that's exactly right. look, nobody wants a recession. nobody's asking for it, because as we know, we're talking about people's life savings. we're talking about people's lives and their future and the problem here is that what donald trump is doing, he's not offering any fiscal policies to fix this. he holds a press conference, you can't -- that's not -- you can't just do that only. you can't just tweet. so stephanie, what would a normal president be doing right now knowing that the forecast is leading to a recession? >> well -- >> straight out of the gate, no administration should hang their hat on saying "i'm responsible for the winning economy," because there are so many more factors that go outside the oval office, but straight out of the gate, when you saw the president take credit for it, when you saw his daughter-in-law, laura trump, say, president trump is responsible for turning around the economy, what turnaround? we have been on a steady improvement since the crisis ten years ago. so the president, at some point, has to live by the sword and die by the sword. and to start to prepare the american people for a normal economy, it's true. a large portion of this country was left out of the recovery. we know that we've got a manufacturing problem. we know that we have an education inequality problem. where lots of people are not equipped for the jobs of tomorrow. so we can address that and say, all of these companies that now have money and are investing are investing in automation, not giving laverne and shirley their jobs back. if we can get honest about that and say, these are gargantuan problems that we have to face, then maybe we have a shot. >> so, steph, the president famously said that trade wars are good and easy to win. we know he just says things to get through the moment, whatever feels good, but what do you make of a treasury secretary in steve mnuchin, and by the way, the rare republican that comes on this show when we ask them about trade wars and tariffs, previously fundamentally disagreeing with them, saying, we see no impact here, prices haven't gone up, they are easy to win. what do you make of that when someone like steve mnuchin who knows better goes out and robotically speaks that way? >> it's a dangerous lie in the same way that sitting next to the president at the g-7 when he talks about a phone call that took place with china never took place. it's dangerous. and this is where ceos, ceos that got absolutely hooked up by that tax cut, who should be dancing in the streets. that's why those ceos are sitting on cash right now. you heard lonnanhee chen speak about it earlier. when you have a president and a treasury secretary that are not being honest about what's happening, these ceos are going to say, i'm going to sit on this cash, because i have no idea what's ahead. >> stephanie, before you go, you wrote a piece for knowyourvalue.com and took issue with the "forbes" list. >> only one of those 100 most innovative woman being a woman. when you have two people on the list named stanley and only one woman, you have a problem. when i saw this list on friday night, i thought, you've got to be kidding me. at the same time, twitter attacked forbes. we saw this cancel "forbes," we're finished, we're done with them. well, that's taking it too far. this is an opportunity to say, why did they make the list like this? valerie jarrett reached out and said, hold on a second. she took to twitter and said, if you came up with a list and only one -- right, if 50% of the population isn't represented, let's look at your methodology. and where i really take issue is when the editor came forward and offered somewhat of an apology, saying, well this has made us realize that women are not present on top and maybe we need to look at our methodology. really? you didn't know that? where it's most upsetting is forbes knows this, okay? forbes women is a tremendous platform. i'm sure you've participated in it, i have. >> absolutely. >> and when you see a women's group not get to be part of the overall mission of an organization, well, that turns that women's group into the pink getto. come on, forbes! you know better! do better! >> it's a dynamic piece. we'll be reading it at knowyourvalue.com and you have a new podcast coming out today, modern ruhles, compelling conversations in culturally complicated times. and yes, they are. stephanie, thank you. we'll see you at 9:00 a.m., right after "morning joe." thank you. >> thanks, mika. still ahead, the president tries to fire up supporters in north carolina, saying democrats will wipe out his record if elect elected. we'll break down his re-election message, maybe that record, as well. plus, a new report contradicts the president's claim that he has nothing to do with the scottish air force that sent flight crews to his nearby golf resort. "morning joe" is back in two minutes. ort. 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>> i don't know. the one that's most annoying, i think, in our present culture is people saying "right?"ed ed at end of a sentence, but in the form of a question. i don't mean to get off on a rant, i guess what i'm saying is i have no annoying verbal tics. >> jonathan lamir, tell us about the rally last night in south carolina. over the summer, really, the start of a precipitous decline for donald trump in his behavior. bad gets worse and his poll numbers drop because of it. but north carolina, of course, a place where most commentators said trump led the crowd in what could only be described as fascist chants. that's what a lot of commentators are saying, the whoe whole, send them back, send her home. what about last night? was it a calmer affair last night in north carolina with donald trump? >> so we were in fayetteville, north carolina, last night. i was part of the press pool that traveled there to cover the president's rally. we were only about a hundred miles from the site of the previous rally in greenville, where the racist "send her back" chants about those four democratic congresswomen of color in particular, representative omar, who was born in somalia, those chants were heard and really rattled republicans and sort of seemed to really set a tone for a really ugly year and a half here of a campaign fought along the lines of race and divisiveness. we didn't hear those chants last night. the crowd never got anywhere. and the president also did not mention any of those congresswomen, there was no moment for them to start with that chant again. we have now had a few rallies in which we have, in a row, in which we have not heard it. but last night's rally is still potentially an interesting moment for this president, because of today's special election in north carolina, where he is trying to push a republican candidate across the finish line to win an open seat there. and it's being viewed sort of as a referendum on his political clout right now. the district -- part of it is areas outside charlotte where he has struggled in the past. it's a seat that republicans have held for quite some time, but polling indicates it's pretty close. and we saw from the president, this is his first time in this rally setting, which is where he likes to vent and air his grievances, since it was a really tough end of summer for him, where we saw his poll numbers slip. we saw signs that the economy is slowing down, potentially leading towards a recession. we saw a nonsensical battle over hurricane weather forecasts. but held largely stuck to the script, as if he ever actually has one. last night, but he made it clear, he painted a bleak picture for this nation, if democrats were to win. according to him, that it would be overrun with crime and poverty and illegal immigrants and he sort of -- he basically made it clear that if you want to keep what you have, you need to keep me ideally in office and ideally send this republican to the house. >> so willie, before we get to our top news story of the day, we saw a poll that david leanhart put out on twitter last night that showed the democrats actually had an advantage in 2018 on party identification. and it wasn't really even close. now, a year later, after the first three democratic debates, it's even. as far as party identification, you know, do you support republicans, do you support democrats, are you a republican? it's now down the middle. and so much of that is not because of donald trump, whose numbers have fallen precipitously, it's those debates where democrats are ridiculing obamacare as being too conservative, attacking barack obama on immigration, talking about decriminalizing illegal immigration, talking about giving health care plans to illegal immigrants. talking about forgiving basically all debt, medical debt, student debt, you know, $22 trillion in debt as a nation. for a lot of americans, this just doesn't add up. >> and that's why you've seen joe biden remain where he is, because he hasn't gone into that territory. for all the problems he's had and all the mistakes he's made and the misstatements he's made on the campaign trail, he hasn't gone to that place of eliminating private insurance and providing health care to people who are here with undocumented. so that is the central concern in this race. if you let donald trump just do his thing, democrats feel like they can beat him, because he's going to bury himself. but they have to be very careful not to bury themselves in their own debate process. you're down to ten now, coming up on thursday. excuse me and the democrats will have to look very carefully at the way they behave in the previous two debates. because you cannot attack this guy, joe biden, in the way that you've done that. you cannot attack barack obama, perhaps the most beloved figure in the democratic party and in the country, at a time when you're trying to defeat donald trump. >> yeah, mika, attacking barack obama as being too conservative. being too harsh on health care and immigration. most americans remember that barack obama actually helped pass a law that gave coverage to those with pre-existing conditions, that took care of their older children, that did a lot of things, that lowered the uninsured in america. they also, actually now that donald trump has made such a mess of our immigration policy, remember that under barack obama, illegal border crossings were at a 50-year low. >> that is the case. that is the truth. okay, so if you want more of the same, here are our top news stories this morning. several bombshell reports reveal that in mid-2017, the united states successfully exfiltrated one of its top spies from russia over fears he was in danger of being caught. "the new york times" reports that the cia's russian informant, who was outside of vladimir putin's inner circle, but saw him regularly and had access to high-level kremlin decision making, was instrumental to the agency's conclusion that putin ordered and orchestrated the interference campaign in the 2016 presidential election. "the times" adds that the source was the government's, quote, best insight into the thinking of and orders from putin. and was key to the cia's assessment that putin favored trump and personally ordered the hacking of the dnc. putin later confirmed in a 2018 news conference in helsinki that the kremlin favored trump. nbc news has not confirmed that the russian fed the cia information about the russia election interference, but for reasons that nbc is withholding, he fits the profile of someone who may have had access to information about putin's activities and who would have been recruitable by american intelligence officials. current and former government officials tell nbc news that a former senior russian official who had access to government secrets is currently living in the washington area, under u.s. government protection. nbc news has not confirmed that this official is the cia asset mentioned in "the new york times," and cnn reports, however, to former fbi officials tell nbc news, they believe he is the source referred to in those reports. president trump was asked about the story yesterday. >> have you responded to reports today that say that you have mishandled classified information to russia? >> i know nothing about it. i see the cia responded perfectly, so whatever the cia said is fine with me. but i heard they responded perfectly. i know nothing. >> so clint watts, obviously, this is an extraordinarily disturbing report. you have "the times" going a bit further than others, suggesting that actually, this spy that was so highly placed -- i'm sorry, it was cnn who went further, that it was this spy who was placed in putin's inner circle was actually pulled out because of fears that donald trump would reveal his existence. others have just suggested that the heat was getting too high with what was in the media and there were also concerns about donald trump. but, you know, if you go back to, i think it was february of 2017, donald trump revealed classified information from an ally in the white house to russia's foreign minister and ambassador of the united states. so, obviously, the prudent move, regardless, given the fact that he was trying so hard to pass along, and there's a picture where he passed along very sensitive, highly sensitive information to the russians, in the light of day, in the oval office, suggests that no source in putin's inner circle would be safe with this man as commander in chief. >> yeah, and what i would add to that cnn story is what else started in may 2017? that was the special counsel investigation. and i think that is maybe a little bit less discussed in these articles, but should be put in context. as soon as you launch an investigation like that, we know that there's going to be extensive amounts of intelligence that's going to come forward that's almost impossible to mask. and what did we see from our congressional leaders once the special counsel investigation started? discussions of fisas, leaks about all sorts of classified sources, people battling back and forth. and that has spilled out in the public for more than two years. so when we look back now, over the last four to five years, let's just look at what putin did. we often talk about 9/11 or we talk about pearl harbor, the significant events. he interfered in our election. he helped evaluate a candidate of his choosing. he launched a public inquiry, which has been a quagmire for this country for more than two years, and expunged the top -- one of the top sources inside russia from russia back to the united states. it will ultimately go down historically as one of the biggest defeats of america, particularly in terms of the intelligence business. still ahead on "morning joe," in order to stay at a trump property near one airport in scotland, you need to travel farther and pay more. >> that sounds like a bargain! >> i wonder if there are bedbugs? >> probably. >> despite that, for some reason, members of the military -- >> no, no, no, the bedbugs are in doral. >> but you never know. >> doral, i think had the bedbugs. was it bedbugs in doral? yeah, the guy had the bedbugs in doral. >> anyhow, some members of the military were still making the trip despite the bedbugs. we'll dig into why next on "morning joe." ext on "morning joe." if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. talk to your rheumatologist. right here. right now. humira. i like to make my life easy. 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"the times" citing documents obtained from the scottish government reports that the trump organization and trump himself played a direct role in setting up an arrangement between his golf resort in glasgow prestwick airport. the partnership, set up in 2014, was reportedly meant to increase private and commercial air traffic to the region. but part of the agreement, according to the times, quote, worked to get trump turnberry added to a list of hotels that the airport would routinely send air crews to, even though the turnberry resort is 20 miles from the airport, farther away than many other hotels and has higher advertised prices. "the times" reports the number of such stops by air force planes at prestwick rose from 180 in 2017 to 257 last year, and 259 so far this year. the 259 stops this year include d 220 overnight stays. since september of 2017, records show 917 payments for expenses including fuel at the airport worth a total of over $17 million. here's the president speaking about the issue yesterday. i haven't found out, other than when a plane stops at a massive international airport and gets fuel, i don't own the airport. every time you find a person landing an airplane within 500 miles of something i own -- mike pence, as an example, his family lives in doonbeg, ireland. and he's actually told me that he stayed there many years ago at the same -- i bought it years ago, but he was there before i bought it, i believe, he said. a long time ago. but he was in ireland, so he said, you know what i'll do, i'll see my family. i didn't know about that. but i can say, he has good taste. >> yeah, that is what you'd call verbal porridge. i don't know if that's what you call verbal porridge, but that's what you should call verbal porridge. mike, we're standing around here going, we wonder what saudis are staying at the trump hotel in washington, d.c. let's go through the records to figure out who from qatar is -- it's the united states air force! like, we need to look at the united states air force and see how they are now direct -- i mean, directing millions and millions of dollars trump's way for this airport that actually helps donald trump out, helps his business out to a tune of, what did they say, $17 million in refueling. that's taxpayer money. it's like mike pence decides to go to the other side of ireland in a meeting and, what, take 250-room nights. i'm not sure if that's the exact number. i thought that read somewhere. but piling, again, a ton of money into donald trump's properties. it's a scam! it's the great american scam from scotland to ireland to pennsylvania avenue. everywhere this guy touches. and now it's the united states air force. >> you know, joe, it doesn't get a whole lot of chatter on cable and occasional there's an important news story like the one you're just referring to in "the times" today and in other papers. but the level of corruption in this administration from day one has been epidemic. >> coming up on "morning joe," to paraphrase the president, when the bahamas sends us their storm victims, they're not sending their best. how his language in the wake of hurricane dorian echos a familiar theme from the white house -- the "white" house. we'll be back in a moment. mome. hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! 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are the bahamians fleeing the storm who have no homes, no nothing left, trying to get to the united states, are they welcome here or will they be put through some sort of a vetting process. the president pointing to unidentified drug dealers. not sure who he's talking about there. >> there was this huge discrepancy yesterday. and first, we should say there are 1,500 survivors from hurricane dorian who have already been taken into the custody. at first, it seemed the question was, will these people be given work authorizations, how long can they actually stay here? we've done that in the past for victims of the haiti 2010 earthquake. then, because of the president saying, i don't even know if they can come, there was guidance put out last night from customs and border protection that said, they do need travel documents, having to go contradict their own commissioner who said they could come no matter what. there was a line in there that said port directors can use their own discretion if someone has certain circumstances, but they all have circumstances. they're fleeing mass devastation. so at this point, though, they say, you do have to have valid travel documents, but officials i've spoken to say, it has come up at dhs meetings, how will these people find their travel documents in the midst of that. look at that. how do you find a passport if that? >> so julia, the logistics of this, from the bahamas to the united states, how do they get here? what happens to them when they do arrive here? >> well, there are a number of ways -- we have to remember, there are about two northern ireland thars that were the mos devastated, but there are other places you can leave from, there can be flights coming into the united states. but in one case, there was a ferry that was leaving from freeport and they were coming to florida. they should have gone to nassau. apparently that is something that has been worked out with other ferries that were bringing people leaving the hurricane devastation. in this case, they did not do that. and these people were forced off the boat. there's a big clarification around that. that was not necessarily customs and border protection, it was the boat not knowing where these people are supposed to go. in that case, it just shows the chaos that happens after a devastation like this. people fleeing, they don't have everything, they're trying to survive. and without a proper message from the united states about whether or not we're taking you in, how long you can stay here, and what you need to get here, it gets really confusing and just adds to the chaos. >> any evidence, julia, that there are very bad people, very bad gang members, some very, very bad drug dealers coming through after the hurricane from the bahamas? >> there's no evidence that i've heard or talking to my sources that this is something that's come up as a national security threat in the meetings. the meetings they're having right now at dhs are mainly about how they care for these people and vet them, of course, as they come in, as they would from any country. but no, i don't think they're talking about the big gangs from the bahamas right now. >> so, julia, if that had happened in the state of florida, we would know that ron desantis, the governor, would be in charge of state efforts and you would fema and sba and the white house in charge of national efforts. here, not so far from our shores at all, we have a humanitarian crisis. look at those pictures. it's even worse than anything we've ever saw in hurricane katrina, especially for a couple of mississippi towns. as far as just everything flattened, what can you tell us -- what is the united states doing? who is -- is there somebody in charge of the american government's efforts to bring relief to the people of the bahamas or are they just on their own? >> there have been u.s. efforts to provide relief and that is ongoing, but i still go back to the fact that 1,500 survivors came in just over the weekend. the big question for these people in terms of being able to leave and to come here is whether they get something called temporary protective status. that is something that used to be a given in a situation like this, looking at that devastation. there are still people living here who came here from haiti in the 2010 earthquake. these are things we gave to people fleeing ebola in central africa. this has been a common thing that the united states has granted to people fleeing mass devastation. and they are able to work here and to live schmear a lot of times, they build a community here. and in this case, because this administration has gone after temporary protective status and so many cases, this is now in question. not only will they be able to come live here and work here, will they be able to come here at all? but, yes, aid is still outgoing. we have red cross. obviously, it's very different from if it was florida or if it was within the united states, but i do understand aid is going. it's a matter of how do you aid a community that is so devastated and help people who just need to escape to survive. >> julia, thank you! coming up on "morning joe," evangelicals help the president win in 2016, but a lot has happened since then. does the trump campaign have a reason to worry in 2020? 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other side, i don't think they're big believers. they're not big believers in religion, that i can tell you. you listen to some of them. they're trying, they're trying to put out little statements. they're not working too well. >> big believers. mr. 2 corinthian. old testament or new testament? >> among other things. >> i like 'em both. >> favorite bible verse? >> i like 'em all. yeah. all right. very good. >> president trump appealing to christian evangelicals at his rally in north carolina last night. meanwhile, new reporting by liberty university graduate in politico magazine details a loss of faith by the school's community in its president. jerry falwell jr., a prominent evangelical leader and supporter of president trump. the article documents more than two dozen current and former high-ranking liberty university officials and close associates of falwell opening up about what they've experienced and why they don't think he's the right man to lead liberty university or serve as a figurehead in the christian conservative movement. they depicted how falwell and his wife, becky, consolidated power at liberty university and how falwell presides over a culture of self-dealing, directing university resources into projects and real estate deals, in which his friends and family have stood to make personal financial gains. liberty employees detailed instances of falwell's behavior from partying at nightclubs to graphically discussing his sex life with employees to electioneering who makes uneasy those who remember the heyday of jerry falwell sr., the school's founder and falwell jr.'s father and moral majority. the author of the book, "the immoral majority," why evangelicals chose political power over christian values. writer, podcaster, and filmmaker, ben hal. also with us, republican communications strategist and msnbc political contributor, rick tyler. mike barnicle, elise jordan, karine jean-pierre, all back with us along with joe, willie, and me. this is quite a piece. >> it really is. it's a remarkable piece. it reminds me of a philadelphia enquirer piece i read back, i think in the late '80s about the ptl club and jim and tammy faye bakker. ben, i think we grew up in the same church. you grew up in the southern baptist church, as did i. but i think you may be too young to remember the rise and fall of the ptl club? i certainly don't. my grandmom watched them every day. but, man, what i read yesterday in politico magazine just smacks of jim and tammy faye bakker and what we started hearing about the ptl club in charlotte back in the late '80s. >> well, you know, i am a bit young to remember it as in watching the news and really knowing what was going on, but in the book, i actually did a little research on that and talked about all of the pentecostal scandals of the '80s. you know, it was usually sex and money and corruption and things like that. and what's interesting about jerry falwell jr. is the more we find out about him, the more he's cut from the same cloth as trump, in terms of the way he views business and views using groups of people to get what he wants. because the problem for me is, the moral majority under his father, jerry falwell sr., the whole premise was that they wanted to bring a sense of morality to government and to politicians and regardless of party and so on, and the idea was that you don't separate that morality. you're not pragmatic about it. you're bringing your faith to washington. but what falwell jr., who's now, you know, a self-appointed leader of the evangelical movement, what he's saying is, no, it's transactional. we're not going to be concerned about that sort of thing anymore. what we want to do is get what we can out of this, regardless of who we have to support. and in the end, it creates a system in the republican party where pulling the lever for a republican is an act of service to god. and i find that really dangerous. >> well, yeah. and rick tyler, i've been saying over the past month or two, i really think -- from talking to my republican friends, talking to all of my southern baptist friends that i grew up with, welcome to a lot of people, the conservatives need to be concerned about the undervote. there are people who will never vote for a democrat, never vote for a pro-choice candidate. donald trump is making it more and more difficult to vote for a republican candidate, not for the majority of evangelicals. and then you look at jerry falwell jr., one of his closest allies, and suddenly this smacks of what happened with the nra, the self-dealing there and jim and tammy baker, this hodgepodge of scandals falling around jerry falwell jr.. >> the story of jerry falwell jr. stems from his father, jerry sr., who started a christian university in the middle of the woods in virginia, which was sort of a crazy idea. it was marginally successful under his father, and to defend jerry a little bit, jerry jr., it went from having no endowment from being worth about consider 210 million to being worth about $3 billion. but really, it's the story of cane and able, right? cane got the university and abel got the church. but jerry sr.'s vision of the church, just as ben was outlining, was to bring moral compass to the political world. that is not what liberty university under engineer jerry doing. it's been described as by one of the senior -- that was reported by one of the senior officials at liberty is the university is really a hedge fund. it's a real estate hedge fund now, this will be -- look, a lot of universities do what liberty university is doing and invest in a lot of companies. they have a return, but the line between a 501c-3 and if they were a private, for-profit companies, they could do a lot of these things. but there has been poll manipulation that has happened in the last campaign to bring up trump's numbers. they manipulated a cnbc poll to make trump look like he was a great businessman. that was done in the run-up to the campaign. that was done by the chief, jonjohn gauger, the chief tech person at liberty university, which separately owns a polling company, which seems really inappropriate for a 501c-3 to have this -- and those business relationships between jerry falwell jr. and a lot of his friends really blur the line of where there should be a fiduciary responsibility for a 501c-3. they are using the money and the board of trustees is absent. and one final point. the -- what i read in the article is a lot of people would not go on the record at liberty university. and they say they're scared. and that really disturbed me, because as christians, as you know, joe, we're not supposed to be scared or afraid. we're supposed to stand up to corruption at the cost of our own -- to sacrifice ourselves. and that's not being done. and that is per larallel to don trump and the republican party. >> ben, i'm curious what you're hearing from evangelicals that you spoke to for your book about their thoughts on modern christianity and donald trump. i also grew up in the southern baptist church and there's always been plenty of hypocrisy to go around. and one of my favorite jokes is that if you go fishing, you take a baptist and a methodist, so all your beer won't get taken from if you had a baptist alone or a methodist alone. but how do you -- what are you hearing from evangelicals reconciling trump's behavior and their personal beliefs in this era? >> well, it's kind of all based on -- well, there's two things, really. there's fear. fear of loss, fear of losing, fear of, you know, their christian values being maligned or, you know, them being isolated and pushed out of the culture. the idea that their way of life is under attack and so on. and trump feeds on that. you heard that clip. i hadn't heard that clip before that you play before we -- this segment started. but, you know, you hear how he's talking. he's saying that there's one party that is saved and one party that's not. and if you vote for the party that's not saved, then you're, you know, you're defying god, i guess. and so there's that aspect of it. but there's also self-interest, essentially k essentially, which jerry falwell kind of exemplifies here, which is, everybody has a self-interest. i have a self-interest in eating so i don't starve to death. there's nothing wrong with self-interest. but when you are pretending or convincing yourself that these things you're doing in your self-interest are for some greater good, like god's purposes, when really what you care about are standard republican things like tax cuts and regulation and things like that, you're deceiving yourself and people like jerry falwell are helping that happen. so the biggest problem for me and the thing that i've been trying to say to a lot of evangelicals who have this fear, this fear of losing the culture and et cetera, along with their, you know, stated republican desires, standard republican desirous, i've been saying, look, if you're a christian and you believe that, you know, believing in jesus and being saved is what you want for everyone, then the last thing that you should think is that you are the one who's suffering, if those values are being maligned. it is other people, it is people who aren't coming to you, to god, to jesus, they're the ones that are suffering. but they're treating christian values like it's some possession they have, that they put on a shelf and protect and, you know, hoard. it's so antithetical to my understanding of the gospel. >> responding to that piece, jerry falwell responded to more than two dozen written questions defending his actions and criticizing the reporting of this article. quote, i fear that the true information i am sharing in good faith will simply not make any difference and will only result in more questions, falwell said. he declined to answer subsequent questions. ben howe, thank you very much. do you want to respond to that, joe? >> no, no, no. very quickly to ben, because we're out of time, but very quickly, ben, what do you hear about the hypocrisy of people like falwell jr. and franklin graham and so many evangelicals that i knew during the age of bill clinton saying that an immoral man like that was unfit to be president. and now, that is all forgotten. and it doesn't matter about the man. it just matters about the power. >> well, they've got a lot of evangelical leaders like jeffreys and pat robertson assuring the flocks, assuring the congregations that there is a larger situation to contend with this, you know, loss of christian values, et cetera. and that they're kind of preaching the idea that god needs us in order to -- you know, in other words, in the election, apparently, god was sitting there biting his fingernails worried about who i was going to vote for, because hillary clinton, of course, couldn't be used by god, only trump could. so they're giving them the rationalizations. and i think a lot of them look in the mirror every day and feel just fine. and in 2020, i think their going to go for trump in the same record numbers. i mean, they even went for roy moore. there was a slight dip in the amount that came out, but they still voted for the republican 80%, because that's what they've been told, voting republican is voting for god. >> the book is "the immoral majority: why evangelicals chose political power over christian values." ben, thank you very much. and rick tyler, thank you, as well. up next, anti-semitism is on the rise and our next guest is tackling the question of how to fight it. that conversation is next on "morning joe." joe." i have the power to lower my blood sugar and a1c. because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates my body to release it like it's supposed to. trulicity is for people with type 2 diabetes. it's not insulin. i take it once a week. it starts acting in my body from the first dose. trulicity isn't for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. don't take trulicity if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. taking trulicity with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, belly pain and decreased appetite, which lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. i have it within me to lower my a1c. ask your doctor about trulicity. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, hmm. exactly. so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ you should be mad at tech that makes things worse. but you're not, because you have e*trade whose tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. don't get mad, get e*trade. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. in the past year there has been two separate incidents where white supremists have open fired in houses of judaism. and berry joins us now, the author of the new book just out today, "how to fight anti-semitism." great to see you as always. let's talk about the personal almost of the pittsburgh story for you. >> on the morning of october 27th i informs phoenix, arizona where i flew to give a speech about jewish topics and i woke up to a text on my family's text that said there is a shooter at tree of life. my dad was not there, and my dad knew everyone killed, i knew many of them, and a few minutes later my sister was listening on to the police scanner and she said that they're saying the killer is yelling all of these jews need to die. i was raised on the mythology that this country is what eastern european immigrants referred to as the golden land. there are no cats in america as that cartoon goes. but i really believed that. i thought even though i was called a dirty jew and there was random incidents and vestiges from an uglier time, i thought it was something that happened to jews of other places and certainly jews of the past thousands of years. i think a nazi who was 19 walked into a synagogue and murdered lori gilbert kay. >> what is different, bari, about this moment in time. this moment in our culture and our time. >> we were the country. there are 20,000 people that were shouting hitler, and saying that jews are the agents of k n communism, and that all existed. i think what we're seeing now is a kind of dismantling of the moral guard rails. trump is an enormous part of that. trump, himself, there is a lot of debate in the jews community about whether or not he is good for the jews. i'm with george will on this, trump is ringing bells that cannot be unrung. there is a reason people like richard spencer were drawn to hiss banner. it is the bankers and those keeping the working men and women down. anti-semitism is the ultimate. when you're pointing the finger at puppeteers and forces controlling society, people inclined to point to the jew are going to do that. >> so, bari, it has always been a part of anti-semitism is always there just beneath the surface, and if you poke it in the proper way, it can erupt in pockets. what particular triggers do you think have been pulled in the course of the last decade in this country to result in what i think is a growing manifestation of anti-semitism that was dormant a decade ago. >> i think a huge part of it is what i said before. the things that weren't allowed to be said before, and now they're being said. i spoke to a young man the other d day. they said what did you do to deserve it. that has become a normal thing here in new york city. when anti-semitism comes to the jewish community, we're all in agreement about what that is. it is very blunt in it's aims. it saying kill all of the jews and then they try to do it. it is three men assaulted and it wasn't by white supree cyst. . jeremy corbin. we have these physical acts of violence. you go back, you can go back as many thousand years as you want to go back. let's just talk about the turn of the century. the things that were said at elite colleges in middle earn -- eastern guys. anti-semitism has laid dormant since world war two. it is a growing hostility, i can find you a different case from an elite american university. >> it's every week. >> okay, we'll i was trying to be every nuancing about it, but every week, a constant hostility toward jews. >> yeah, and in that sense you have people who are trying to semi-activism. they are only against the dismantling of the jewish state that has the largest jewish community of any place in the world. somehow you never hear those people talking about the fact that if they really care about palestinian rights, there is half a million refugees living in leb non. why do we never hear about that the if those people really care about palestinian rights. i'm vn who is very critical of israel. i believe the netanyahu government is betraying jewish values when it closes up to people in hungary or brazil. when you want to single out israel as the most diabolical in the world. a country where there is north korea, china, pakistan, and israel is centuries 68 times between 2006 and 2016, and the other countries get zero, there is a conspiracy there. >> how to fight anti-semitism, bari weiss, thank you for writing this. we're closing out the show, kareem you have the final word of the morning. >> i have been thinking about this a lot. i want to send prayers to the people of the bahamas, and you know everything they're going through, the stories that we have been reading and what has been happening, 70,000 people are homeless, and just want to make sure that we're thinking about them, praying for them, and doing everything that we can to help. >> absolutely. >> so glad you brought that up. >> we have to and we're going to use this show in the coming weeks to figure out who is helping and how we can help, how the "morning joe" community are help and make a difference in the lives of people going through a human calamity. >> it is incredible. the red cross, project hope, team rubicon, americares. we know they do great work. that does it for us this morning. zrrchlgts hi the hi there, for the next 24 hours the nation's political spotlight falls on a small section of north carolina where the polls opened just a few hours ago. they could tell us whether or not president trump still has the swing state

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