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Coming up after the news on the b.b.c. World Service it s hard to talk with me Stephen Sackur today I m discussing the impact of the Trump presidency on the United States and the wider world my guest is the Republican Senator Lindsey Graham who made his own unsuccessful bid for the White House under since become a thorn in President Trump s side what has happened to the idea of American leadership I told him Mr President there s no more hawkish town Capitol Hill than Lindsey Graham and pledging to increase the military budget but if you take diplomacy in developmental aid and foreign assistance off the table soft power we can t defend America through military night alone we have to build up the lives of others to beat the terrorists not just kill terrorists and that s the conflict I have with him does he understand the limits of military power does he understand the value of soft power that Senator Lindsey Graham on hard talk after the news. Hello I m Gerri Smits with the b.b.c. News South Korea says the u.s. Missile defense system installed to protect the country from North Korea is to be strengthened as the North reportedly prepares for further missile tests South Korea s defense ministry said the United States would soon install formal rocket launchers that is Southern base to counter North Korea s growing nuclear and missile threats Robin Brown s is in the South Korean capital Seoul now officials here in South Korea say they believe there may be evidence of further with our launches to come and of course that would continue to add to the provocation interestingly at the president of South Korea Jay in a man elected just several months ago on a pledge to try to extend an olive branch to the north and try and rekindle dialogue rekindle talks officer those ambitions of the moment are in tatters and we re hearing that over the weekend he and his top ministers have agreed the focus now a need to shift away from the idea of talks and shift towards beefing up their military contingency so to speak South Korea and Japan have agreed to push for more powerful United Nations sanctions against North Korea but correspondents say that a warning from President trunk that the u.s. May stop trading with any country that does business with North Korea is unlikely to get support from China and Russia the Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull urged paging to do more to influence Pyongyang the fact remains that China has the ability the economic ability to bring North Korea to its senses and the responsibility therefore on trial or is the greatest the time has passed for all nations including China to take action to bring this regime to its senses. The un special rapporteur on human rights in Myanmar young he lady has criticized the country s de facto leader and son Suchi for failing to protect the revenger Muslim minority the u.n. Says $87000.00 Rahane Jews have fled to Bangladesh in the past 10 days as their villages burn German gibbering reports young Healy acknowledged that Aung San Suu Kyi was in a difficult position but criticized her for failing to condemn the violence the current crackdown by the Burmese army is sparking a severe refugee crisis with tens of thousands of people fleeing their homes most of them women children and the elderly and aid agencies across the border in Bangladesh say they re struggling to cope mislead said it was very difficult to believe the claims of the Burmese military that Rangers have burned down their own homes the un has repeatedly called on me and Maher to protect civilians the un refugee agency the u.n.h.c.r. Says one of the main refugee camps in Bangladesh has now reached saturation point and another may hit its limit today as the influx of ranges from Myanmar continues agencies say some of the new arrivals are weak and haven t eaten for days refugees are spilling out onto walkways in public areas news from the b.b.c. One of Italy s most wanted fugitives the alleged boss of the drunk at a mafia Syndicate has been captured in Europe why Rocco Morabito was arrested in a hotel in the year ago on capital Montevideo the police said he had fought identity papers he s been on the run since 1994. The British trade body which regulates the public relations industry needs today to decide whether to impose sanctions on one of its best known companies Bell Pottinger the firm s chief executive James Henderson has already resigned following allegations of stirring up racial hostility in South Africa his Our business correspondent the shallow Sri Pathmark Bellport and Jay is accused by South Africa s main political opposition party the Democratic Alliance of inflaming racial tensions through a controversial social media campaign the party filed a complaint with the public relations industry watchdog the p.r.c.a. Which was up held Bell Pottinger has appealed against the decision and awaits the bodies final ruling the regulator which represents more than 20000 members can impose a range of sanctions and they stringent is ending fms membership a man has been charged with kidnapping in connection with the disappearance just over a week ago of a 9 year old girl last seen during a wedding at a village in the French Alps the prosecutor in Grenoble said the 34 year old man had been charged with kidnapping or illegal confinement of a minor and have been placed in provisional detention has denied any involvement in the disappearance. Hong Kong s public probe broadcaster has dropped a 24 hour b.b.c. World Service digital radio channel replacing it with state radio broadcasts from China the b.b.c. Have been broadcasting around the clock on r.t. H.k. And Hong Kong since 1978 some critics say the change is evidence of the encroachment of mainland Chinese state media into Hong Kong b.b.c. News welcome to hard talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me Stephen Sackur today I ve come to the shores of Lake Como in northern Italy the venue for the annual Ambrosio tea forum on international affairs which is this year dominated by one top. The impact of the Trump presidency on the United States and the world my guest today has a close up and personal perspective South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham made his own short lived and unsuccessful bid for the Republican presidential nomination his relationship with the eventual winner Donald Trump was fractious back then and it remains so today Senator Graham has criticized the president s response to the federal investigation into allegations of Russian meddling in the presidential election and possible Trump campaign collusion he was also unhappy with the president s handling of violent clashes in Charlottesville which saw neo nazis and white supremacists making a very public show of strength but when it comes to key foreign policy issues the confrontation with North Korea the decision to ramp up u.s. Troop numbers in Afghanistan Senator Graham is a vocal backer of the president amid all the heat generated by this Trump presidency how is it affecting America s place in the world while Senator Lindsey Graham joins me now welcome to hard talk thank you very much you are at this significant gathering of international politicians you ve had a chance to take the temperature the mood when it comes to international perceptions of President Trump today how would you characterize them I think a lot of anxiety in Europe about President tribe I don t think that affects in that at home there s lyings out leave out President Reagan a lot of adulation for president trops I m not so sure that s going to affect domestic politics much but people are uncertain people aren t sure who is this guy what is he think where is he taking the world and I can understand that anxiety anxious for all sorts of reasons not least the very significant figures in the United States like the former director of National Intelligence James Clapper have said that they have very grave doubts about trying right this for office he talked about Trump s words being scary and disturbing Well you know. Not worried about you know he s entitled to his opinion look at the people around President I have not seen a better national security team in my political lifetime General Mattis is excellent secretary of defense and General Kelly the chief of staff General McMaster Dan Coats is now director of national intelligence so he s surrounded himself with very quality people who have a traditional view of the world from a Republican point of view and I think we re going to be fine it surprises me you say that in a way because if one looks at your own thoughts about Donald Trump you have over time expressed your own grave reservations about it every day ability to become the commander in chief Yeah during the campaign I thought you know some of the things he were he was saying I thought was insane your area and unhelpful but he is now the commander in chief I would say this the Muslim Bam was a shaky start the course reject it is effort to restrict people coming into America because it appeared to be a ban on religion and you can t do that in the United States his decision Afghanistan was a very good decision well thought out and basically completely different than what he campaigned on well we ll get to that because I do want to talk national security issues with you and us foreign policy is the 1st I want to dig a way at some of the most controversial elements of the Trump presidency and there is no doubt that his response to the violence in Charlottesville and that show of strength to many people extremely disturbing show of strength by neo nazis and white supremacists in Virginia Donald Trump s reactions of that the violence that we saw was to talk about blame on many sides you condemn Oh yeah I mean it was an opportunity missed I mean the shooter came down hard on the Nazis and white supremacy you know the left has a violent element to that but it was a moment for him to basically reset some of the things he said in the campaign the point that he right now looks like a president who is polarizing the United States in a way that we have not seen before I would say the country s been polarized for quite a while just lied. Their country brought sick as a result of disenchantment with globalization there would be no Donald Trump if I had brought us together so the bottom line is there is a divide but here s the good every corner of the political spectrum pushback against President Trump statements in this incumbent upon me and others to respect his victory but also to push back when we have to well I find that interesting the way you count but let s be honest at one point you called him a jackass more recently and said more recently you re someone like the guy who has a unique personality so let s cut to the chase here John McCain your good friend says it s time for Republicans on Capitol Hill to stand up to Donald Trump we are not his subordinates. So are you now prepared to stand up to them Well absolutely I mean when I think he s wrong John McCain came out very hard against the 1st travel ban because I thought it was basically a ban on a person s religion they re all you know the Russian sanctions I authored the Russian sanctions I was the primary author of the sanctions against Putin s Russia and didn t like what we did but we get 98 to 2 so I think he s so bizarre when it comes to Russia quite frankly his own yeah bizarre feeling about Putin I can understand it given what Putin s done but at the end of the day the Congress has charted it s own path on form so the most important relationship the United States has in the world is with the other nuclear power Russia you re also saying you believe the commander in chief behavior and policy is bizarre it s not his behavior in policy as much as this why doesn t he see Putin like we did I mean most of us Republicans Democrats believe that Putin did interfere in our election he s trying to destabilize democracy all over the world and I hope that President Trump seems to be getting the message he s kicked Russian diplomats out our consulates in California he s beginning to understand that Putin is not his friend I don t blame President Trump for trying to have a good relationship with adversaries but it s. Clear to me he was trying to excuse behavior against Putin for Putin s behavior in a way that I feel I m comfortable with but will come back to Russia later but just sticking with domestic policy for a little bit longer if you say yeah like my friend McCain I am going to stand up to trump it seems to me u.s. Politics is heading for a car crash very quickly because Donald Trump has said for a start I am going to build up war with Mexico and the Congress is going to pay for it unless they get quick about paying for it and now I m going to basically shut down the government well I think he said a couple days ago that we re not going build a 2200 mile wall a 2200 mile wall is not necessary it was stop the floor commerce you d have to take people s property away from them their parts of the border that you don t need a wall of the parts you do so we re going to secure the border but nobody believes we re going to have a 2200 mile wall we re not in nobody believes Mexico is going to pay for it because they want it s not just about the Trump is at loggerheads with the Congress about raising the debt ceiling it looks like there might be a big argument about the budget he s at war with the Republican the head of the Senate Mitch McConnell he s pretty much at war with the Republican leader in the House Paul Ryan wherever you look Donald Trump is treating your party which is in the majority on Capitol Hill with content I think that s probably why one he shows contempt for the system Mitch McConnell Paul Ryan Lindsey Graham John McCain in the eyes of many and you sucker this estate not suck it up understand it again we re not going to I m not going to vote for a 2200 mile wall it makes no sense but you gotta listen potentially for a shutdown of that and I think we re headed for what we ve been having for years in Congress the ability to govern is very much lost here s what I think will happen he should be upset with the Republican Congress did we promise for 7 years to repeal and replace Obamacare now we re in charge the Prez wears a build a repeal and replace Obamacare I just went all over South Carolina people saying you know we put you there for a reason you got passed you got Senate you got the White House you telling me. That after 7 years and we re going to repeal and replace Obamacare you can t get it done guess what people should be mad at us they should be aware that Lindsey Graham says that it s not all they are all right what a terrible indictment of all of you the president there you were in the Senate the Republicans in the house as well you control as a party all of the key institutions in your telling me that you can t see any change that gridlock is still beyond the law they will have some breakthroughs you know the Republicans ran on a platform repealing replacing Obamacare cutting taxes rebuilding in the military very specific things if we don t deliver we re going to lose so our fates are tied together each trying to say Well will you stand up to trump what he may not understand is as I go he goes if we jointly do not repeal and replace Obamacare if we can t have a tax cut then he s going to lose and we re all going to lose live on the other matters you have made it quite plain you have no doubt that Russia meddle interfere in the presidential campaign. So Donald Trump is still telling the American people it is fake news it is a hoax it is something being manipulated by the mainstream media so here s the thing why do you think Donald Trump still insists there s no story I don t think he believes it undercuts his victory that if you say Russia was involved somehow it affects his legitimacy the question is did he and his team receive help from the Russian collusion collusions I don t know the answer to that but we will find out and you are determined to find out Absolutely because we re a rule of law and you sit on the Senate tradition I say on the Senate Judiciary Committee and chairman of the subcommittee is overseeing this I will go wherever the facts take us you appear to believe there is or has being a serious danger of the trumpet ministration seeking to fire Robert Mueller the special counsel I don t know what Trump was thinking I know some press reports were unnerving there s no reason to fire Miller if you can find. One let me know but we introduce legislation to make sure that he can t be fired without you do that in a sense is what I m pointing to you would not have introduced that legislation unless you Lindsey Graham feel there was a serious possibility that this White House was going to try to remove the special counsel which appears to be ramping up the investigation into this allegation of collusion you have no faith in your president on this not that I have faith in him as about whether or not people have faith in the system I don t like the fact that Russia interfered in our lives and I have no evidence of collusion yet between the Trump in the Russians and if there s some to come about it will come about what you don t know any more than I do what remote there is finding because you haven t told us but I think it is for this to make sure he can look and not worry exactly and is it not fair to say that given the you know they ve empaneled a grand jury that we understand that all of these working with prosecutors in New York as well he s ramping up this investigation it seems to be that is ramping it up and he s taking it serious and it will go where it goes and I have no idea where this thing s going to go I do know this is important that he be able to do its job without any political interference and most Republicans are behind me in that regard do you see this as the most ethically challenge the administration you have see in your political lifetime I can t tell you I haven t seen a high crime or misdemeanor committed by the president the people around him or some of the best people in the world about business dealings there are some things with the Trump family I think Muller may look at but all I would say about the president when you look at the people he s picked to run his government pretty damn good where you ve talked about your confidence in the national security team doesn t sit easily with you that his daughter and his son in law are key players in the in that you know so you know we re. Met them both and I like and have a more traditional centrist view of political issues and how about this Jennifer. Rubin the writer in The Washington Post recently wrote this Trump continues to receive money through his businesses from foreign governments be they in the form of bookings into his hotel benefits derived from expedited marks and this she writes is the essence of financial corruption Yeah what I would say is that you know Muller a look at where whatever he needs to look at I think the ethics folks are looking at the Trump Hotel deal does that suit easily with you Well I don t and I don t know what she s talking about I don t know what allegations she s make what what we know is Donald Trump has not divested all of his key assets including hotels including a hotel in Washington where world leaders tend to stay when they are running down the mistress right I don t think he gets any personal financial benefit I don t know to me that is something we have a system to look at right well one could say that was an overlap of domestic and foreign affairs given the Russian involvement let s not get the straight out foreign affairs let s start with North Korea now how close are we to seeing a war in the skin to everything that Korean peninsula let s let s look at this Wes I don t know us a really good question I worry about that slot How close are we here s what I think you need to understand the president s made a decision this fundamentally different than the past every president before him is tried sanctions can jelling you know we sent Dennis Rodman over I can t believe that didn t work you know mountain Albright dance where the guy has their we re tough we re nice we re tough we re nice and they get more bombs more bombs and bigger missiles so I think Trump s made a decision that I m not going to let this program on the tour to the point that they can have a missile to hit America with a missile with a nuclear weapon on top so he says that he would use military force to prevent the marriage of those 2 concepts you make it sound as though there s something clear coherent easily understandable about the administration s Korea policy but what we saw in recent days was a trump tweet saying outright talking is not the answer to this problem not a load funnel and followed within hours by the man that you say you respect so I leave the Defense Secretary James Mattis. Saying we are never out of diplomatic solutions so which is it well I think is this is what I just said we haven t reached the end of the diplomatic road I don t think we are raised by close but the road of diplomacy has to be married up with a road of missile development So here s what I m trying to tell us me about how close only I don t know how close they are to perfecting the technology that would put America in their crosshairs Kim jungle so when does the diplomatic road end when that marriage is on the brink of happening but Lindsey Graham s view is that yes in the end that is on the table the possibility of an American 1st military strike against North Korea absolutely as a matter of fact I think of something doesn t change it s inevitable because they seem to be hill bent on developing technology in defiance of the President Trump said he would allow to happen thing is you know however it works hundreds of thousands of civilians as they are all going to all likelihood die as a result of that American So here s what I m trying to say you do not. See how you don t care that much oh it is the last they re not going to duck in America you know what I m going to quote you say it s not so long ago if there s going to be a war to stop him. It will be over there if thousands die they re going to die over there they re not going to die here and the president the president has told that to write to my face so you and the president don t care that much I think dest pretty unfair I if you left it up to me I would be at war with anybody I ve got a real problem with a man who threatens my country with a nuclear weapon attack I ve got a real problem with I got a problem with what he does his own people but I m not trying to change the regime I m not trying to unify the peninsula and he s as president we re not out for regime change we re not we re not out to reunify the peninsula we re out to stop a threat to the American homeland to made this an acceptable but you can imagine a 1st strike war. With the us 1st price war it was hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians on both sides of the border to die and it would be in America s interest it would be in my last last resort but please understand what I am saying I care a lot about anybody dying anywhere but the duty of the American president is to protect America and our allies we have troops in Korea there to defend Korea and to defend our interests I am 100 percent certain that if Kim Jungen can own continues to develop missile technology that can hit America if diplomacy fails to stop him there will be an attack by the United States against that against his weapon systems I m assuming the worst I m assuming we drop one bomb he fires at South Korea and maybe Japan let me take the war ends it ends with his utter destruction thousands of people could be killed or maimed there s a lot at stake here and let me ask you why would the world given his track record the North Korean leader allow him to get a hydrogen bomb with a missile deliver it anywhere in the world why would we do that before we end a quick tour of a key foreign policy that s a pretty good one there that s important you know that s why we spent some time on it but on other issues whether it be trumps policy on the way he talks about obsolescence believe doesn t do that anymore whether it be on Russia where Trump clearly wanted to warm up relations with Putin but the Congress impose new sanctions on Trump very reluctantly have to sign the bill one can look across the piece and see that Donald Trump s instincts in many foreign policy areas are running up against one could put it the pragmatic stablish mint in Washington d.c. I think that Trump losing No I think I think reality s taking over when you re a candidate you can say it like I m a build a wall my scope a for when you re the president in a democratic society it s not so easy to do when your candidate is the longest war in history and more pull out of Afghanistan did you General stay what was. Happen if you do poll well so the reason you should be somewhat optimistic about President drop he s shown the ability to just policy he took the campaign rhetoric against Afghanistan and he ran hard against getting out and I hit him hard and now he said just as a policies in a reasonable way I think he s taken the right position on North Korea and when Steve Bannon the No 2 quote unquote American nationalist who was behind many of the policy positions during the campaign that you just outlined when he left the White House a short time ago did you dance a little jig of delight I didn t dance a jig of delight but I think his view of the world is very dangerous and let me tell you that is a false sense of security leave them alone they ll leave you alone America 1st remember that statement from the twenty s and thirty s Europe the sure war we re not going to be drawn into European war says Hitler marches to Europe in this little island called Britain is the last line of defense the day before Pearl Harbor the polling in America was 70 percent stay out so this whole isolationist America 1st leave the world alone I reject that completely over some of the Gramm going back to the beginning of our conversation the problem you ve got is that many Europeans believe that s what they see in America today you saw Engler Merkel just a few months ago after a g. 7 meeting say people into Europe we cannot anymore rely on traditional partners it was clear she meant the United States and perhaps Britain as well and she said we have to accept our fate in Europe is in our hands a clear indication there is a bigger rift than we have seen for a very long time between Merkel the Russian continental Europe and the United States and it grows it could be dangerous trumps inaugural speech came out of the thirty s it s very dark scared me quite frankly his speech in Poland about how we re all in it together we have to defend our values against those who would destroy the benefits of NATO of all the organizations in the history of man and stood the test of time I m an internationalist I hope the European Union survives so we can get more contributions. I think what trumps trying to do is say you know to our European allies you re not hearing your fair share when it comes to defense spending and they re not that s different than saying that the alliance is not beneficial a final thought for you goes back to a couple things we ve talked about this unfolding investigation into the Russian meddling in the election and potential alleged collusion involving the Trump campaign that could be enormously damaging and serious for the president himself the other reality use that his relationship with some of the key players in your own party on Capitol Hill is pretty poisonous those 2 things combined have led people to debate whether this president is going to see through his for you to them Do you think he will Yeah so the I don t know what the investigation holes I have seen nothing to be higher crime or misdemeanor yet I mean what we ll see what happens here s what I would tell my European friends ace judge with the stroke of a pin shut down the travel ban and that held the Congress over president s objection said we re going to punish Russia for interfering our elections and we did they ll be times when we work with them they ll be times when we say Mr President what you said about Charlottesville was fundamentally wrong that s just the way the game s going to be in a spinet way for quite a long time in America hourly view a sense of optimism the president has just had policies when it made sense the people around him are the best I ve seen on the national security front a back injury that. They have a view of the world that I think is healthy for the president to hear Mr Bennett s view is shared by many Americans I just think in the end America is destined to lead the world when we re not around things usually go bad now here s the goal. For me to understand what got him elected and for him to understand my concerns about his agenda one example he cut the State Department s budget by 29 percent and increased the military dramatically I told him Mr President there is no more hawkish on Capitol Hill than Lindsey Graham I m glad you increase the military budget but if you take diplomacy and development all aid and foreign assistance off the table soft power we can t defend America through military might alone we have to build up the lives of others to beat the terrorists not just kill terrorists and that s the conflict I have with him does he understand the limits of military power does he understand the value of soft power the the power of building up people s economies a schoolhouse for a poor young girl will do more damage to the Taliban they need bomb you can drop on their head we have to remember what Senator Lindsey Graham thank you for being on hold to thank you very much. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the u.s. Has made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content engaging audiences creating meaningful experiences and fostering conversations proud to deliver the highest quality of most respected global news b.b.c. World Service because global times call for global perspectives a.p.m. American Public Media. You re listening to the b.b.c. World Service with me Ed Butler wary big week is about to start in Washington the u.s. Congress back from its summer holes is facing an almighty budget crunch not just passing tax reform but costing a war with Mexico and a huge cleanup after storm Harvey there s a risk if they can t agree a deal of a total shutdown after 4 weeks the clock starts ticking after the news. B.b.c. News with Jerry Smit South Korea says the u.s. Missile defense system installed to protect the country from North Korea is to be strengthened as the North reportedly prepares for further missiles tests South Korea s defense ministry said the United States would soon install formal rocket launchers at his Southern base the United Nations Security Council will hold an emergency meeting later to respond to the North s biggest nuclear test yet. The un special rapporteur on human rights in Myanmar has criticized the country s de facto leader and son Suchi for failing to protect the region Germans were minority the u.n. Says $87000.00 were hinges have fled to Bangladesh in the past 10 days as their villages burn the rapporteurs young he leave said the missile had failed to condemn the violence one of Italy s most wanted fugitives the alleged boss of the. Syndicate has been captured in Europe why Rocco was arrested in a hotel in Montevideo the police say he had false identity papers the mayor of the u.s. City of Los Angeles says firefighters have contained about 30 percent of a huge fire that had triggered a state of emergency Eric Garcetti said a corner had been turned but it was not over. The Prize winning American poet John Ashbery has died at his home in Hudson New York he was 93 was considered to be one of the greatest 20th century American poets in 1986 he became the only writer to win the Pulitzer Prize the National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award in the same year Hong Kong s public broadcaster has dropped a 24 hour b.b.c. World Service digital radio channel replacing it with state radio broadcasts from China r t h k So the b.b.c. Would be still available for 8 hours every night critics say the change is evidence of the encroachment of mainly mainland Chinese state media b.b.c. News. Hello I m Ed Butler and welcome to business daily from the b.b.c. Coming up the business guru hoping to explain high finance through pop culture we need to demystify and humanize finance and the best way to do that is through stories because it puts a moral lens on the underlying idea also in the program the great Lucy Kellaway reflects for us on corporate jargon and why bosses just can t stop using it Polish vicious exaggeration there s also something is more troubling which is that people talk this way because they don t want to be understood so if you bore people rejected by a stream of verbiage they won t notice that actually 2nd lots of people that s all in business daily from the b.b.c. . It does promise to be a big month in Washington President Donald Trump is demanding action from Congress on his long promised tax cuts he also wants money to build his big beautiful wall as he calls it along the border with Mexico but to do those things he s going to need the agreement of Congress and Democrats as well as some fiscal conservatives may not be so keen to give it without a deal there is a risk of a government shutdown at the end of this month we saw Congress hitting similar fiscal cliffs under the Obama administration well the prospect of another one has the markets all aflutter this month but on top of all of that there is another big looming cost for the American government the repair bill for Texas after that devastating storm. $100000.00 homes have been there damaged or destroyed by the Harvey storm system as to its improper The losses are in the 10s of billions of dollars thousands are in shelters and rescues continue across the Houston area and a frantic things Harvey is expected to be one of the costliest storms in u.s. History the price tag around $40000000000.00. President Trungpa last Congress to release sun initial $5900000000.00 to help with the recovery effort following storm Heidi the most expensive natural disaster in u.s. History estimating the impact on u.s. Economy to approach at least 160000000000 dollars We ve pledged our full support as Texas and Louisiana battle and recover from this very devastating and historic storm there s probably never been anything like this. Well as you can hear the cost estimates for hurrican Javi keep on rising Yes President Trump is asking Congress now for an initial $7900000000.00 to start that cleanup but the governor reckons the overall bill to the u.s. Taxpayer could well be over 150000000000 subpar saying what was spent off the Hurrican Katrina in 2005 so how will this affect the wider political calculus given Mr Trump s demands for tax cuts and wall building the inevitable need now for a new debt ceiling it seems Joining me is Ken Rogoff he s professor of public policy and economics at Harvard University it is going to be a tough one for Mr Trump politically isn t it Professor Well he s very good at saying something one day and taking it back the next he s certainly going to have to do that here people in Houston are suffering a real calamity and he can t just say well I m not going to do anything until they give me my wall and at the same time they need to raise some money to help out the people in Texas oddly enough a lot of the taxes satyrs and people in the house are the really conservative ones saying we should never raise spending we should never break the budget and here they are on their hands and knees begging for money yeah and the brinkmanship I mean he was threatening wasn t a President Trump that he would force the shutdown if he wasn t given something towards his will that that s going to have to go away now I do think so I. I think he s just going to say I m going to pick it up later you can t be shutting down the federal disaster relief agency and in the middle of it to say ouster I think this changes the short term political calculus whether it will change the tax bill debate I doubt I mean the storm is a calamity figure sound horrific but in the context of the size of the u.s. Economy these natural catastrophes tend to leave a pretty small Mark let s just remind ourselves the tax bill is the big one right any Republican president has to try and push through some kind of tax cut that will make America work again and reduce the long arm of government that s the idea I m not sure he is one thing all Republicans agree on well they don t I mean I think the Republican Party s been in a state of civil war for some time between the Tea Party populous and between the old fashion mainstream Republicans trumps made some broad promises he said they ll be cuts for middle class won t be any money for the one percent he s going to make the u.s. Corporate tax system more global more competitive in the world and he said he s going to try to prevent some of the weird tax inversions where a big u.s. Company incorporates with a small Irish company and operates out of Ireland to avoid u.s. Taxes the thing is it s very hard to lower the torpor tax rate even if you shut down a lot of loopholes with out losing revenue the Tea Party Republicans especially are very conservative they say where are we going to get the money it s really hard to do a big tax reform and make it what we call revenue neutral where you find another way to pay for it you really have to let the budget deficit go up right so no tax reform of a significant kind no Wolf what about the shutdown how do you see this playing out over the next few weeks yeah I mean this is a farce that goes on in Washington every year because. If the u.s. Actually didn t pass the dead appropriation it would start running into problems of not being able to pay Social Security recipients not being able to pay government contractors and eventually defaulting on u.s. Debt I think actually the storm will make that go away I think they ll come to a much quicker resolution because no one s going to look like they re grandstanding over the victims in Houston professor Ken Rogoff You re listening to business daily from the b.b.c. With Ed Butler now and here s a question when it comes to the study of money do we need a bit more study of this sort of thing. Can you say West and Jamie Foxx they re singing their way through some contrasting attitudes towards Well let s just call her a financially aspirational woman is she or isn t she a gold digger. Who teaches at Harvard business and law schools has just written an intriguing new study of the popular cultural wisdom represented in books and in songs just like that one if only we d really absorb those messages it would help us to discover the humanity in the world of risk and return he reckons his new book is called The Wisdom of finance and he stepped into the studio to tell us more about it finances critical to society and chunks of it are broken people outside of finance don t understand it are intimidated by and they demonize it and that s toward no good and so the book basically takes the approach that we need to demystify and humanize finance and the best way to do that is through stories and it turns out the humanities are a fabulous tool for learning finance for people outside of finance and also rehabilitating finance because it puts a moral lens on the underlying ideas the humanities starting with. The ancient Greeks presumably moving on to Jane Austen. And all the way up to you know Kanye West Yeah indeed So yeah this is what threw them just for a short while if we may Jane Austen just about classic let s just most popular novelist I think we can call her that what did she have to give us when you think about finance the core idea is about risk and insurance but then the question becomes how do you manage risk so you know rather than use a complicated stick as to calculus or payoff diagrams the other way to understand that is by thinking about characters like Lizzie Bennett in Pride and Prejudice or Violet Effingham and controls novels who basically face a large risk management problem and Austin is quite clear about this for young women in that era mistakes are very very costly not so much for young men and the problem of course is suitors who come in some of whom are drunks and some of them are rich and some of them are no good or some of them are Mr Collins and you have to think about that risk management problem as you may recall Mr Collins proposal that were proposed lover this is the reverend in private budges he s a well let s just say not the most attractive individual you might have a wish to choose indeed and probably the provider of the least romantic proposal ever effectively you know you re not that rich you re not that beautiful so you better settle for the offer on the table which you know Charlotte takes the next day but that is a risk management problem she chooses to gamble on to get Mr Darcy Violet Effingham in fact actually voice is the root modern risk management techniques in finance she voices options and she voices diversification as a solution to this problem of multiple suitors some of whom are worthwhile and some were not so that s a much more interesting way to think about risk management and to humanize it rather than thinking about derivatives and how evil they are it s actually a fundamental human problem you know which is we have risks we must manage them and options in diversification are in life everywhere I guess the concern or perhaps the reflex that people have is the decisions you get into finance you get into the profit motive and the profit motive is something that is almost by its very nature . Corrupted and it and it and it separates us from. The better selves Yeah so I hope that s not true because the profit motive I think is important in society in the last chapter I do try to explain why finance is unique so the 1st 8 chapters are finance is fantastic in the last chapters Why does everybody hate finance and it goes to your point which is I think something terrible happens to people in finance once they go in finance is quite distinctive you actually get feedback at a very accelerated rate and feedback that is inflated by leverage and so every day you re getting signals from your screen that says either you re smart or you re stupid and people in finance do what everybody does which is they make attribution or everything good that happens is my result and everything bad that happens in the world psychologists know this of people generally but in finance it happens at a scale and at a frequency that is not comparable to anywhere else may decide author of The Wisdom of finance Now Monday s business dailies may never be the same again for the last decade or more the in comparable columnist Lucy Kellaway of the Financial Times has graced our airways with a range of forensic and often withering assessments of the words and deeds of corporate bosses especially the words of the jargon the gobbledygook they use the absolute nonsense sprouted in corporate pronouncements well as of this month Lucy is heading away from journalism for a new career in teaching say it ain t so yes I m afraid it is her regular weekly letters will be no more so to mark this sad moment for us she came to look back at her 23 years of writing columns in all forms and to reflect on whether all of those column inches had achieved anything I look back through the archives and in 1904 I found my 1st of a column railing against moronic business speak but what was so funny was the words back then I thought well for I mean. Global I thought was a shockingly horrible word and Marketplace rugrats a hard line position every word I say Global all the time without service I know you wouldn t have been saying Global in 1904 necessarily but it just shows how much worse things have got you every year give your awards some of the worst offenders but now you ve got a lifetime s award or 23 years at least of doing this who are the worst offenders who have they been actually my all time worst worst worst was John Chambers when he was c.e.o. Of Cisco he said we ll wake the world up and move the planet placer to the future. Now there was no I mean you know there was no sort of leveraging Ok deliverables and that there was some cells were all right but actually the hubris and that the extent of toxic nonsense was really off the scale you not a huge friend of Starbucks judging by your back catalogue. Yes indeed Howard Schultz of Starbucks has provided me with more Goss the examples than anyone else alive I ve been writing columns of mocked him directly he obviously doesn t read the f.t. . Or maybe if he has he sees nothing wrong with it but I just had a fantastic example from him he said this just a month or 2 ago about the new Starbucks registries which he said were delivering and massive ultra premium coffee forward experience do you want coffee forward experience I say for example coffee or a cup of coffee exactly the hyperbole is beyond that I think immersive is quite funny as well a massive is a very fashionable word but not to be recommended if you re talking about schooled in liquid so I m. Not so I have you I mean obviously this is been a lifetime s work of research and some people do read the f.t. Has a not been a reaction some of these people that the named and shamed do they not stand up and go for cop or how do you. Go away what s been really interesting over the years has been how people have responded It s really changed in the early days it was completely acceptable for a chief executive to ring you up and shout at you but then sort of pales to control and nobody did that anymore but what was really funny is you talk about Starbucks we had a response not from Howard Schultz himself but from the head of that communications in London and he completely entered into the spirit of it and wrote let s double click. On the contents of this column for a moment Ms Kellaway feels that the description of our new Starbucks reserve rose 3 stores as delivering an immersive ultra premium coffee forward experience is over the top I digested her narrative over my morning espresso and felt compelled to engage the challenge is we just don t see the issue my Scalloway says tomato and we say some dried optimized natural product driving positive consumer sentiment if served on organic rye etc etc I thought it was a brilliant response is the gist of all this jargon I mean I look at this and I look across your oeuvre which obviously I ve been privy to having queued it up many times over the years that people in some of these jobs doing some of this kind of p.r. Or orders rousing the troops to the extent that one can rouse the troops when your let s say simply selling coffee is quite hard and therefore maybe you need to just slightly over kind of over spice the pot to an infusion excites those who are willing to be excited among the 5 soldiers Yes I mean I think you re right look it s marketing a lot of this and if you just say it s a cup of coffee do you want to pay whatever extortionate price they charge for it so if the whole it s experience is hyped up the words need to be hyped up too but it goes way beyond that so part of it is exaggeration part of it is marketing but there s also something that s more troubling which is that people talk in this way because they don t want to be understood there s so many sort of there s nothing there the Emperor Has No one it s either the Emperor has clothes or the Emperor don t Johnny well has clothes but for all sorts of reasons doesn t want you to see them so if you bowl people rejected by a stream of be aged they won t notice that actually you re sacking lots of people you know or doing whatever it is you re up to does that mean your entire lives work has been an abject failure Lizzie Ah. Well it depends how you measure it I m juicing no tobacco out by thinking I ve been an entire failure look I haven t changed a single thing let s be completely clear as politicians always say about that but I think the world s divided into 2 people the people who talk like this and they re beyond help but there are a few of us who don t and the listeners on the b.b.c. Have I m sure there are loads who don t talk like that I hope they ve enjoyed some of that my hope they ve had a bit of a laugh if they have I don t think it s been a waste of time at all Lucy Kellaway of the Financial Times I m just a little business sad moment. That s it for today s program we will be back same time tomorrow join us then. B.b.c. B.b.c. . We re now witness with me Mike lunching and today I m taking you back to September of 1957 and the worst ever train accident in Jamaica more than 200 passengers lost their lives and another 700 were injured in the fatal crash that occurred near a small town called Kendall I ve been hearing from one man who was on the train that day one. It s the summer of 1957 and in Kingston the capital of Jamaica 14 year old Earl Clarke has just heard that his local church is organizing a day trip by train to the coastal town of Montego Bay he s keen to go along. The church should put on excursions the world would get around but there s an excursion and this would attract parishioners would attract also those people on the periphery of the Catholic Church it was very quiet plays and you made your own entity it was a big day out for people to yes it was seen as a social occasion I wasn t allowed to play out my mother was quite stern The only activity I was engaged in was church so it s quite an exciting prospect it was an exciting prospect to be going on this year and. Earl s rather protective mother had left to work in England and he was living with an aunt his elder sister Eileen and various half brothers and sisters many of them were also going on the trip it was planned for September the 1st a Saturday we got to the to the train station and it was quite crowded a lot of people came down and the adults were quite excited they were providing refreshment. There was excitement but we were all young. Earl and hundreds of other members of the congregation their families and friends all piled aboard the train that was waiting for them it was no diesel engine hauling 12 Open wooden carriages the youngsters like Earl quickly took up positions standing on the outside of the carriages entertaining themselves along the way by chatting singing and counting off the stations until they reached their destination I hope I can remember it it goes something like this Kingston Greenidge farm Gregory park Spanish Town old I m a pen for pass their path I think. Kendall green where chapel CERM Alex Glover Street. And Ridge earlier and church Montego Bay live now and that was it once in Montego Bay The day trip was relaxed under the hot sun eating and swimming and fooling around but Earl s memories of Montego Bay are somewhat patchy maybe because it was a slight disappointment after all the excitement of the train journey or maybe because everything has become clouded by the terrible events that occurred on the way back to Kingston they left Montego Bay on the same train at about 6 pm that evening during the course of the journey we realize that the trail is getting fast was speeding up quickly and I remembered quite distinctly the climb up the hill and as a carriages were pulled up the hill we felt it we knew were it going up an incline and on its descent the train gain speed and we were moving at an on controllable speed it was a scary a we were excited we were excited initially but then we realize that something. Wasn t quite right did you say anything to any of your friends no we we looked at each other a bit perplexed but you don t remember feeling feeling scared or anxious No not feeling scared or anxious remember you see we were young people travelling on the train this was exciting this one sort of thing we did every day towards the end when you realise that something was about to happen. There was there was concern but it happened quickly there were different versions of what actually did happen to cause the accident one was that the brakes had failed as the train made its way over the hill and down again another that the brakes had been vandalized whatever the cause as it came hurtling down hill all but a few of the trains carriages swung off the rails well within the last of the 12 carriage is at the back my sister was on the train my great uncle was on the train and all the relatives but they were in the coach in front of me and they were sleeping I was traveling in the last coach were younger people in my friends were and my coach because of the speed hit the one in front of in front of us and it fortunately it careered up the hill and when that happened I remember looking out but ahead of me I didn t see anything I didn t see any coach disappear before the actual impact what was the last thing that you remember that the train was traveling to 2 thoughts it was out of control do you remember the sound of rain when it crashed just an enormous bang Miraculously his carriage hadn t been crushed and was able to clamber out stunned and shocked but on hurt it was then horrific scene there a body parts heads arms limbs I do remember a ditch and there are people in that ditch pleading for assistance in distress they were crying as I walked along I felt someone grabbed hold of my trousers remember it was quite dark. No lights continued walking in the hope of seeing the rest of the train but there wasn t anything in front it was all promptitude destroyed the accident had taken place just before midnight near a small town called Kendall and other survivors were picked up by local people who d been woken in the night by the noise of the crash when he got back to Kingston news of the disaster who d already reached the city who ll sail death and disaster on the rails in candour last night by midday the toll of Jamaica s with real oxidant by far had reached at least 171159 bodies have been removed from the scene there s an estimated 600 to 700 injured the government has set up an inquiry commission the chief minister has sent his sincerest condolences everyone knew about it was everybody else in the streets yes people are out looking and when they recognise that I was a survivor wanted to know what happened I could only tell them that the train crashed what you know at that stage about your sister and your other relatives I was looking for them at the site didn t see them it was dark however I hope that. They would be all right I got into Kingston and there was no word and so I assume the worse it would be hours until his family found out what had happened to their loved ones who d been on the train many of the bodies of the $200.00 also dead were so badly damaged that they were never identified and were buried in a mass grave in the local churchyard it was the worst train tragedy in the Caribbean Islands history how many members of your close family did you lose that 66 members including your sister my sister Yes we are very close to her as you grew up oh yes yes we went to mass together she looked after me not long after the disaster left Jamaica to join his mother in London where he still lives with his own children and grandchildren I took my family back to Jamaica in 2007 to show them where it occurred and it s important to me that they know it this is part of Jamaica is history and it s part of your history part of my history that was Earl Clark survivor of Jamaica s worst train accident in September of 1957 he was speaking to me my clenching for this edition of witness and if you d like to hear more unique voices from history just search online for b.b.c. Witness. I m Chris more classical music host at Aspen Public Radio but explore the world of classical music together as we uncover treasures to be found in the $300.00 counters of this summer s Aspen music festival and school who are the new roomie enters choir the 19th century romantics or soul storing the beautiful it s the season for total musical immersion So this summer like Aspen Public Radio illuminated for you with Festival notes your updates on the events at the ask them you.