Period. In china he was born with a feudal empire which hasnt really changed for 2000 years. When he left, when he died it was a major power. A member of the u. N. Security council with satellites, with Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and nuclear weapons. Cspan how long have you spent in china . Guest i first went to china 90 and 77. I open their office and then i have been back for periods of up to a couple of months pretty regularly. Almost every year for the last decade or so, less often in the previous 10 years. Cspan this is a big low, close to 800 pages. Guest its not supposed to seem like that. Cspan is their new material in there . Guest oh yeah three of the is there has not been a new tiger field mouse for 20 years. The last one, the last major biography was in 1980 and over the last 20 years, so much has emerged. Facts, documents, memoirs by people who were around mao. Huge areas which we didnt really understand our winter stood wrongly are now much more clear. Its possible for the first time as you said its a long book and he lived a very long life. A jampacked life. In a way he lived the life of a character in an epic novel and there was so much to it. Cspan how long did it take you . Guest six ears. I was working on other things. I had worked for the bbc for some of that time but it was six ears, the last two or two and a half years doing nothing but. Cspan is your name is that a chinese name . Guest thats a chinese name. Cspan where did you meet her . Guest i met her in beijing in 1979 during the Democracy Movement that happened with this great outpouring of Free Expression and war posters criticizing this and that. It was a battle like 1968 in paris. 10 years ago by chance 10 years later i should say i met her again in paris and once, but twice you can do much about. Cspan what role did she played . Guest she played a very major role in two ways. My chinese is like a 6yearold. Its not wonderful, so she went through reams of documents with me and for all the trips that i did going to places with me. She was in the middle in that. And also because she is chinese and she has a whole network of chinese friends it made it vastly easier to talk to people who would not normally have talked to a foreigner. The chinese had become much more outgoing and much more willing to discuss sensitive topics privately, publicly or privately even so it makes an alarmist difference if you have, if you are chinese or you have a network. Cspan how many years was he the ultimate total top power in china . Guest 1949 was one he proclaimed the peoples republic of china and he died in 1976 so thats 27. In the economist areas he was an undisputed leader really from 1937 to 38. Cspan what year was the . Guest 1893. Born under the empire in very much a classical education. He was made to learn great chunks. Yes, thats him. Thats him at the age of about 17 or 18. Its the earliest photograph we have. At the time of the revolution, the revolution which overturned the empire in 1911. Break out what were the circumstances . Guest the empire had been crumbling and rotting away for a century but at least at the bin there for the last decades of the 19th century. A huge rebellion, 20 Million People had died. The best part of a century later you can still see the demographic effects of the slaughter and this was 1853. In the 60s there was a big muslim rebellion. In 1908, the emperor died, a child emperor came to the throne and there was more and more pressure on the throne and the revolution itself started in not sober, october the tenth, 1911. Really in the muddled way these things often do start. The conspirators were betrayed. Some of them were arrested. Some of the others decided to go for the army and rebel. The man that they were ousted take charge of their rebellion and lead the rebellion he was so scared that he disguised himself as a scholar. Most of these things earlier all of these things had fizzled out. This one kept going. From wilhelm its spread and mao was present in the capital of conan when that city fell to the rebels again in a very disorganized fashion. He left a wonderful account of seeing the battle outside of the city walls, the troops storming the gates, the rebel storming the gates and bursting in and eventually hoisting a flag over the governors palace. Actually all of that was later imagination. It didnt happen that way. It was a muddled mess but he did see the flag lifted when the city fell. Cspan who is guest he was an old Old Revolutionary born i think in 1866. He was the leader of the nationalist and he was the man who became president of chinas first president of the republic in china in 1912 after the emperor out of the cave. The party he founded, the nationalist party was later to be taken over by Chiang Kaishek , later to be the great opponent of the communist civil war in china that followed was between economists and the nationalist and under Chiang Kaishek set up an alternative regime in taiwan, still in power to this day. Cspan how big is china today in population . Guest a good question, 1. 3 million. That single continent is quite important come 8 billion. Cspan how many people live in taiwan . Guest around 20 million. The difference is important because peoplesoft and say look taiwan is a democracy. It is and dont decry decry the taiwanese achievement, its quite considerable but its really happen a lot sooner 15 years after Chiang Kaisheks death. He kept a dictatorial stranglehold on that island now you have to think one island with a lot of foreign aid up against 1,300,000,000 people in a huge disparate country which is aris been difficult to rule. Its not. Its apples and oranges. You cant really compare. Cspan theres a photo in the book of the village. Its really not the village. Its the farm, the original farmhouse of mao tsetungs father. Where is this . Guest its in a place which is about 30 miles from the capital and what is interesting is the farmhouse is considerably to an extent being reconstructed but it is as it was. Whats interesting is it is so big you know, mao had his own room and his brothers had their own rooms. Its very unusual for a family, farmer to be as prosperous as maos father was so mao was not the child of a poor peasants. He was the child of quite a welloff landlord rave. Cspan you sealed the map where the nonis and where taiwan is right up because. Guest thats right. Maps of china arent away misleading because the place is so big and the map is small but good man in the center, center south of china. Cspan what was his father like . Guest if we were to believe mao his father was a skinflint bigoted narrowminded tyrant and mao was constantly rebelling. That is a formal picture with the little round cap and button and apron a lower garment over his trousers and a soap jacket traded. Cspan who is that next him to him while i have the picture here . Guest on the other side, the next picture . Mao was on the right of the picture. He is the tall one. His mother sitting and his two brothers so that is the mao family. He actually looks quite like his mother. His mother is a very rounded face and mao had that same rounded look but mao was exceedingly ungrateful to his father because his father put up with him. His father was impossible but actually mao must have been a terrible cross to bear as a young man. And certainly was constantly defending against traditional precepts of propriety and good behavior. Cspan when was his first marriage . Guest his first marriage was when he was 14 to a peasant girl. It was an arranged marriage, range by his parents and very little is known about it read she died soon afterwards. Mao by his own account refused to live with her. She by some accounts three months after they were married i think thats correct from the people i would say two years but in any event it didnt last. According to mao it wasnt consummated, what search wasnt to knows but its something he consciously tried to push under the table. Host . Cspan heres a photo with his second wife and child. Guest the two little boys and there was a third child warren who died when you was young of dysentery. The daughter of his favorite professor and the man who influenced him greatly a very liberal openminded man and they were married in 1920 the winter of 1920 and live together until 1927. 1927 was when the real clash between the nationalists and economists began. Chiang kaishek cracks down in a massacre of communist in shanghai and the communists went underground. Mao went to the mountains and begin a guerrilla struggle. She stayed with the children and mao then married again and he had two wives at the same time. These things are looked at fairly tolerantly. The third wife started living with him when she was quite young, 18 or 19 years old on the very remote land called kin yan chen were mao and his guerrillas had taken refuge. Two years after mao and she came together shang chi way was arrested in around that by the nationalist leader in cheng jen and executed along with maos adopted sister. The children were smuggled to shanghai because otherwise they might well have been killed as well. Things were not done by half measure in those days. It was very brutal. The children were smuggled to shanghai. They had a very rough time because the communist party was being dismantled and was under tremendous pressure. Part of the time they lived on the streets and in the mid30s one of the two children the younger boy became mentally disturbed and is still alive but has remained with serious mental troubles all of his life. The other boy came back but we are getting ahead of ourselves in the 1940s, came back to china and was with mao. Cspan and he has a fourth wife. We might as well talk about her briefly. Guest the fourth wife, she was an interesting woman. She went right through with them and she bore him children. Then she decided she had actually had enough of mao. She walked out on mao and he was devastated. Cspan this is his fourth right here on the screen. Guest the fourth wife, he started living with her shortly after she left him and he set himself later it was an extremely bad choice. She was a young shanghai actress with a devious past and there were strong efforts made within the party to discourage or say was this the right thing to do. You do not tell someone like mao if hes the party leader of the communist party theres no way you can say you cant marry this one. He had made up his mind and it turned out to be really a disastrous marriage. She had one child but by the early 1950s they were effectively estranged and later, much much later towards the end of his life mao used her as a political tool. He exploited her as a political instrument because he knew that she was completely loyal to him. The one person who depended on him completely and whom he could have complete trust in so he used her for his poetical dirty work we will put it that way. Cspan she was a member of the gang of four . Guest she tried to use him for her political gain. It was one of the adjusting relationships. Riker at what point, do you remember the year they actually mary . Guest they didnt go through marriage ceremony. We talk about marriage. Mao married several times. I am not at all sure he was actually ever formally married except his present wife and they were never actually married. They started living together. I think he did warmly marry the professors daughter because i dont think the family would have stood for anything different. They started living together and with they started living together and they were deemed to be married. When mao invited his colleagues to a dinner which chang chen played the role and that was it traded. Cspan its where in 11 years of booknotes theres a quote they cant read because of language and i think you know im talking about. Theres a quote in this book that you got from the doctor about that quote about what he does with his private parts in reference to women. You say the whole area we talked about for five women in his bed. Explain that whole lifestyle that he had and the doctors look. Guest the doctors book was the first time we have heard about them than there was some skepticism. In the west it was accepted but in china you have people coming out of the woodwork and saying this enormous bed and you know that is the bed which was left in his study by people who knew him said the bed he actually used with even bigger and if we believe it, which i think we should that he did like to have several young women, up to five young women in bed with him and of course his books since his books were important to him and there were always books on his bed no matter what he was doing. A large bed would clearly require it so mao both chang chen did not work, this fourth marriage and you can say is part of the imperial tradition. I think its much more innocents like groupies and modern pop music stars or whatever. Mao found that with young women he could have a normal contact that was tonight. You may question the word normal that sexual is a normal human activity in just about every other aspect of all his activities were politically regulated or motivated or had a hidden purpose. This was terribly basic, terribly earthy in which he had a human relationship with other human beings rate from this point of view that was it. But young peasant soldiers, again he had a sort of surrogate family and he had a normal family long long ago. I think that was his side of things. There was also the business he knew he was getting old. He had the power. He could do it and it always done it so the girls themselves, sleeping with god because that was how he was seen probably didnt seem wrong. Cspan there a lot of terms you use it are for mayanne i want us us way to tell us what they are quickly. What was the great leap forward . Guest the great leap forward was an Economic Movement to launch in 1958 where mao tried to mobilize the Chinese People with the strength of their hands and their spirit to work economic miracles. Everyone would make steel, grain yields that were out of sight. Cspan what was the august harvest uprising . Guest we are going back in time, 1927 when the fighting between the nationalists and the communist began. The autumn harvest uprising was the failed, desperately failed uprising which mao tried to foment conan hunan when he retreated into the mountains. Write to what was fake long march . Guest the long march was a very long march from 1934 to 1935. Economists had a base in Southern China and the nationalists were at the point of wiping them out. When the communists decided to make a strategic retreat and it turned out to be a march at 6000 miles which took them across china to the northwest. I have traveled the whole route of the long march and its a great thing to do if anyones thinking of it. Its fascinating. Cspan do they have a march . Guest no is not that there is an excellent book by house in salisbury on the march which has the details of where they went but it is possible to follow that march and they went through the most remote backward areas because those were the areas where the nationalist forces were the weakest over the mountains through the grasslands which is a terrible area of swamp and bob of 10000 feet between taiwan and szechuan and finally into desert country in the northwest which is from 1935 they had their headquarters. Cspan what was the cultural revolution . Guest the cultural revolution was maos fila tends to make sure that china remained on an ideologically purely red ideological path. Cspan the first thing i noticed was how much the russians had to do with a lot of the early beginnings. Guess that there would have been no communist party if they would not have artificially created it. The communist international set up by lenin. You got to remember this was a time where rush of the soviet union was under enormous pressure with the western countries. There were russians fighting against the communists. It was setup in order to promote the soviet unions cause abroad and forge forged links with Workers Movement and create calmness parties. Cspan what youre . Guest 1919. Bright coba bolshevik revolution. Guest right after that we had. Cspan how was it set up in china . Guest it was based in moscow than. In 1920 the first emissaries were sent to make contact with chinese and the Chinese Communist party itself was founded in july 1921 in the ball places a Girls Boarding School in the french sector of shanghai cspan auto bond, who was he . Guess who he was a communist military adviser advisor, german. His ability his identity was not known. He met otto brown booted only knew him by his chinese name. Much much later on in the 1960s brown in east germany started to write his memoirs. He was the military adviser sent to work with the communists in the early 1930s and he tried to impose strict adherence to Russian Military principles which didnt work in china. He often made a little bit of a scapegoat for the Chinese Communist mistakes but on the other hand he was a very rigid orthodox man who was not prepared to do things the chinese way. Brye till im jumping all over the place and theres so much to cover here and im not sure we are doing it the right way but heres a photograph of him. He seems to be guest we are jumping all over the place because this is much later on. In 1970 with mao and interpreter and the defense minister. Its an interesting story in itself. Mao in 1970 relations between china and russia were terrible. There were some serious fears of a chinese russian war. Mao was signaling to nixon that he wanted that her relations with the United States. One of the things he used was to invite edgar snow in american on Chinas National Day october the tenth to stand with him and be photographed at the gate of heavenly peace. So the chinese mind that was an obvious symbolic way of telling the white house we are interested in better relations with america. Kissinger comes back years afterwards. They didnt understand the significance of it at all because it was much too elliptical. There were other mismatches of that kind but to go back to edgar snow the point of edgar snow was he was the First Western journalists, the First Western are really to go to the communist areas in 1936. He went to this arid desert heart of northwest china were the communist finished up the long march. Edgar snow interviewed now and produced a book called red star over china. Is it a six source because it had novels only account in his own words of his life after that point. He continued to go back. Cspan why did now talk to him . Guest various reasons. Mao at that time was affirming himself as the leader of the c