rosenberg is the assistant treasury secretary for financial crime. they testified on the bite administration sanctions against iran in efforts to track running fronts to support terrorism three topics include humanitarian who assistance for the iranian people and iran's access to $6 billion as part of u.s. iran's prisoner swap deal this is about an hour and a half. to some commit oversight investigation will come to order without objection the chair is s authorized to declare a racist of the committee at any time. i do want to take a moment with my personal privilege and offer that up to my colleague mr. green as well. i want to acknowledge somebody who has been an integral part of our team here at the oversight subcommittee. rachel is her chief oversight council for the past 16 months. she previously had been with ways and means committee. she is going to some other place a little north of us i hear it's on a campus. some other building over there where they might do some important stuff to call the senate. she is going to be going over to senate banking committee. we deeply appreciate your service, rachel. you've been a pleasure to work with. you've been an amazing professional and how you have worked through some tough issues. we just want to say thank you on behalf of myself personally, sean, my team and the entire committee we just want to say thank you for your service. we know you are not going far. i am sure our paths will be crossing again so blessings and all the best to your future with that i'm happy to acknowledge my colleague as well be. >> thank you, mr. chairman. this is one of those moments of bipartisanship i am honored to acknowledge the outstanding work and wish her well as well. thank you. >> is a former staffer i know you are only as good as the people you surround yourself with. she has been excellent. so thank you again. with that, this hearing is entitled moving the money part two. getting answers from the bite administration on the iranian regime support of terrorism. without objection all members are five legislative days within which to submit extraneous material to the chair for inclusion in the record. i don't recognize myself for five minutes to give an opening statement. assistant secretary rosenberg, deputy envoy thank you for appearing before our subcommittee this morning. your testimony is significant to the subcommittee and continues to investigate how the iranian regime accesses money around the world due to the last sentient enforcement and waiver for additional hope you can shed light on why a new waiver was necessary for the iraqi electricity sales and how the bite administration monitors compliance of sanctions around the world. as i said during my last hearing i do not believe this topic should be partisan however i do believe in accountability is vital our oversight work is informed that the collaboration and testimony directly from agencies and open and transparent setting not behind closed doors. so again thank you for your willingness to be here today. as we documented in a previous hearing iran continues to be a leading state-sponsored terrorism facilitating a wide range of attacks and other illicit activities around the globe and we are seeing these reports daily regarding our own troops in the region. october's attack on our allies, israel is a stark reminder that in order to prevent further atrocities we must increase not relax pressure on the iranian regime. iran sanctions have been a significant component of u.s. policy since around 1979 islamic revolution and history tells us that they work. for example the previous demonstration maximum pressure campaign cut oil exports from iran significantly reducing to ron's ability to fund attacks against americans and our allies. in contrast the current administration has adopted a different strategy. this past september as part of a deal with the iranian regime to get american hostages present invited waived u.s. sanctions to allow for the transfer of $6 billion in iranian funds from accounts in south korea to qatar for the funds were not only usey to be used for humanitarian purposes such as food and medicine there are reports the iranian regime is found and inexploited ways around those restrictions regardless of what restrictions are placed on these transferred phone iranian officials themselves have signaled this money is fungible which is confirmed by the president who stated quote this money belongs to the iranian people the iranian government so the islamic republic of iran will decide what to do with this money." believing the money will go to benefit iranian citizens may be a bit naïve. the white house and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle may attempt to dismiss the significance of these waivers assuring us i iran will not gain access to these transferred funds. the reality is they likely will at some point if they have not already. my colleagues will use this opportunity to point fingers at the past administration incentive acknowledge that under this president iran has gained ground and grown in their influence. i will notes the obama administration, the trump administration all had been operating under this but we saw a decrease in the sales that's with the whole program was about to ween places like korea off of iranian oil. the american people expect their representatives in washington to stand up to those who wish us harm. as we speak iranian proxies continue to attack american troops and our allies with little if any accountability or responsibility for this administration in my opinion. so sure of the subcommittee i intend to use congress oversight and authority to hold our government and the bite administration accountable. the status quo is not acceptable american lives have been lost there been 66 troops and contractors that had been killed in recent days. so i look forward to having it open and honest dialogue this morning i without a good deal back about summertime. the chair now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee for his requested four minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you at mr. chairman i appreciate greatly your desire for accountability i respect greatly your desire to investigate fungibility i do believe a president biden is an honorable man. i believe president biden has followed the law. i believe that what he has done for humanitarian purposes is something other presidents have done in similar ways. i believe the $6 billion have not gone to and we will get evidence of that, too iran. the money would never go to iran. it would be utilized to make purchases for humanitarian purposes that could benefit people in iran. i think this request for accountability is something we should pursue. i don't think we should stop at the second hearing however i think we need a third hearing. think we need a third hearing because we need to take a look at the money that has gone to hamas. cnn news story and 2019 qatar, now qatar is the same country that would aid and assist the humanitarian support to the people in iran. in 2019 qatar again making monthly payments to the gaza strip some 15 million ascent into gaza and cash it failed to cases. this cash money going into the gaza strip into the hands of hamas. this was delivered by qatar through israeli territory after months of negotiation with israel. now what is interesting about this is doing this at $15 million and when i say dollars i literally mean dollars u.s. dollars not canadian dollars. in doing this u.s. was aware of the payments and this was on president trump's watch this as per a state department official and also this allowed prime minister netanyahu to avoid the pressure of peace talks because he could indirectly keep him awesome power. and in so doing he would have the perfect enemy. the perfect scapegoat. somebody that is not with israel exist as a result of not letting israel to exist he could always say i do not have a partner to negotiate with bird by saying this he is allowing millions in cash we don't have to talk about fungibility. millions in cash to go directly to hamas. i think we ought to investigate mr. trump's actions or the administrator's actions. i don't think we can limit these things to the lawful actions of president biden. this is more than probable cause to investigate i would hope mr. chairman we would treat the trump administration with a similar desire to have accountability and find out what happened to the suitcases of cash i yield back. >> of judgment yields back. i will note i believe ms. rosenberg i'm not sure but a career employees correct? i have it reversed. he may have the ability to ask than that the chair recommends the ranking member for a full minute for an opening statement. >> thank you very much mr. green. under the biden administration the united states is maintained the most extensive set of comprehensive sanctions on iran. affected by it in ministration is ramped significantly by designing sanctions for hundreds of additional entities for activity related to iran. including sale of a radiant foil further president biden successfully negotiated temporary cease-fire and the return of hostages taken but i'm offs. this is the kind of steady leadership that america needs an increasingly unsteady world. while i am interested in working across the i owe with the administration to ratchet up pressure against iran in any way possible the accusations that the biden administration has somehow weakened sanctions against iran or simply false and not conducive to productive conversation on these issues. i hope we can clear up much of that misinformation and i think you and i yield back. >> are gentle it is time has expired today we welcome the testimony of elizabeth rosenberg assistant secretary rosenberg is the assistant secretary for terrorist financing and financial crimes. it is the deputy special envoy to iran. we want to thank you for taking time to be here in person today and without objection your written statements will be made as part of our permanent record. assistant secretary rosenberg you are now recognized for five minutes year old remarks. >> thank you chairman huizinga. i printed the opportunity to speak on the u.s. department of treasury's doing. october 7 of the day of or the brutality of the terrorist attacks carded by hamas against israel killing indiscriminately drink neither children or the elderly was an affront to our shared humanity in a somber reminder of the threat posed by terrorist organizations like hamas. it is my responsibility as assistant secretary for terrorist financing and financial crimes identify and disrupt financing and abroad. since the attacks treasure has redoubled its efforts to identify and freeze the finances of hamas and other ironic back terrorist groups. hamas has tradition been able to raise funds for terrorist activities from an array of sources including taxation, donations, a portfolio of investments across africa and the middle east in direct support for my wrong. the u.s. treasury department has a story will use the full scope of its authority to impede hamas funding. sanctions designations and investments span over two decades. recognize the dangerous role a l around plays and destabilizing the region more broadly. treasure is sanctioned nearly 1000 individuals and entities connected to the iranian regime has proxies to date since the october attack treasury has released three separate sections focused on hamas designate over 50 additional individuals linked to hamas and iran across multiple jurisdictions and today just this morning treasury has announced another sanctions on hamas entities. however hamas leaders live and move freely and qatar and elsewhere publicly solicit funds and enjoy financial services. therefore, it is to sanctions designations disrupting hamas international study financial network requires receptor counterparts across the middle east and europe to convey the administration support for israel and the intent to use all the tools at our disposal to just dropped and does. lately targeting center we convened among a number partners and saudi arabia in october. additionally traveled to discuss the urgent need for turkish efforts to free hamas funds. deputy secretary also spoke with his european counterpart in late october to press partners to investigate entities of possible ties to hamas. treasury has also technical outreach are partners around the world which has led to complementary sanctions actions by australia, european union, japan, united kingdom, others todesignate hamas -related targs through their own domestic authorities. treasury private sector in united states and abroad to refine the red flags and indicators of terrorist financing. underscored the imperative to report and freeze terrorist funds. alongside these counter finance activities treasury has a significant role to play in addressing the ongoing humanitarian crisis in gaza to ensure our financial measures do not negatively impact legitimate aid treasured close engagement with nongovernmental organizations, international organizations at u.s. of humanitarian assistance on these matters. in some treasurer's response to hamas over decades has been broad and aggressive. is this committee fully appreciates hamas attacks and their relationship with iran is a threat to the safety and stability stability of israel but to the region a more broadly into american interests. all of us here share a common interest. preventing acts of terror but secretary yellen to confront these challenges by maintaining u.s. leadership abroad, meeting all of our financial commitments and adapting our laws to meet the challenges posed by new and emerging financial technology. i look forward to work with members of this committee on these issues and i be happy to answer your questions, thank you. >> thank you. with that we will turn you are now recognized five minutes. >> members of the committee. threat is a country divided administration views iran is an adversary in the state-sponsored terrorism. your clear eyed about iran will continue to take the actions necessary to counter the threats it poses. crusty federal government pushing back against the destabilizing activities were coordinated close with allison partners to enhance our already strong military deterrence. we are utilizing strategic messaging to make clear ironic behavior will not be tolerated. will be punished in tehran will continue to be treated as a pariah on the international stage absent a shift in his policies. this result and encountering around us about full display since a horrific a master's attacks on israel on october 7. the attacks on israel and commercial shipping in the red sea. we view our iran as complicit in hamas and barbaric earth attacks the attack begins a speights proxy. we will continue to hold it accountable. the president and secretary of state have been unequivocal about her support for israel and israel's right to defend itself against terrorism. the bite administration has also been consistent in our efforts to counter iran's long-standing support for hamas, hezbollah houthis and militia groups. this is not a time. he has shown he is prepared to defend u.s. personnel and interest time and time again when addressing the mentoring situation in gaza we also continue to count to the full range of the iranian regime activities that are empathetic culture interest in her values. we are confronting the iranian regime plotting against current and former officials as well as a transnational of dissidents and human rights defenders including on u.s. soil. we are using all the tools at tt are exposed disposal to disrupt expanding military partner. alongside our allies and partners we are standing with the people of our rot in the face of continued oppression and violence. none that nuclear from president biden is aptly committed to never allowing a run to acquire a nuclear weapon has been clear we remain postured and prepared to use all appropriate measures to do so. iran's unjust attention of our citizens for political leverage represents a threat. we continue to stress to all americans do not go to iran. president biden secretary blinken have been clear of the safety and security of americans and the administration stands by our deal that brought innocent americans are two of the family member's home. this deal is about reuniting these americans with their loved ones. as part of this arrangement we facilitated the transfer of $6 billion in restricted iranian funds held in south korea to restricted accounts or humanitarian use only. not a penny of this money has been spent these funds will not go anywhere anytime soon. this does not change anything about our approach to iran. iran mays an adversary who will continue to confront it as such. with respect to qatar its relationship with hamas has been well known to multiple israeli governments. including the current government going back many years. it has been and remains extremely helpful in securing hostage release. at the same tie we've discussed with qatar leaders there's no going back to status quo of october 6 and they have expressed their agreement with that. the 21st such waiver across multiple administrations for iraq to pay for electricity and in support of iraq's energy independence, under these waivers no money has been or will be permitted to enter iraq. innate dosage of the country's false these iranian funds can only be used for the purchase of food, agricultural commodities, medicine, medical devices and other non- sanctioned transactions. we do not believe restricting the availability of humanitarian goods to the iranian people would decrease iranian support for terrorism. iran this prove it prioritizes these destabilizing activities and terrorism regardless of the countries economic condition. and since we do not expect any change in iran behavior are approached are brought is similarly not going to change. i close by reaffirming the administration commitment to addressing iran's continued destabilizing behavior unilaterally with our partners. thank you. >> thank you for that. the u.s. citizens still go to iran is stunning to me. recently i have the swiss ambassador to iran in my office. she and the swiss act as our on the ground liaison since we do not have diplomatic relations. they know of tens of thousands of our citizens who are there. they suspect it may be more. so if we want to talk about bipartisan agreement please do not go to iran. so we the government and citizens are ever put in that situation. i wanted to emphasize that as a public service announcement from the oversight committee if that's okay with the ranking member. i'm going to start my questions with assistant secretary rosenberg. what is the biden administration policy reason for allowing the transfer of money from iraqi banks to to france, germany, italy the last two waivers covered those to be then converted to year old? of basically what i am wanting to know is the why and secondarily who requested this move? so mr. secretary. >> thank you very much for the question appreciate the opportunity. as a point of clarification the money was earned and year old at never -- but there's never a transaction in year old. >> what you mean earned in year old? this was electricity sent from iran to iraq. the iraqis paid for its in year old? >> that is correct but. >> it was that never in iraq eight. it's my understanding the losses at the met and intended to be at the local denomination. i will defer to my colleagues at the department to discuss the waivers that were put in place originally by the last administration that allows for the purchase of energy from iran but. >> had not been converted to year old because they were in year old it was your testimony? >> yes. ask why is that necessary? >> the iraqis have the opportunity to pay for that and either in europe. >> and we have discussed whether it's in italy, france, or was in journey isn't year old is your understanding progress it is in year old. that's why is on one of the countries granted a waiver for iranian funds from iraq? >> we have worked with financial institutions to create the structure for restrictions on his finances. >> give greater confidence in the that rather than the qatar or the italian or the french banking system? >> think we are here today to discuss funds and qatar. we have worked very carefully. the waivers of italy and france, france or twice and in germany i'm curious why germany is no longer in that waiver but i want to continue view. >> i happily differ to my colleagues to speak to the text of the waiver. both wrists with respect to the confidence we have in the financial institutions that hold this money we have worked on create a structure for the restriction of these funds. and a whole series of levels of compliance in order to examine the money. expert testimony previously there is no written agreement on that. there is a letter but not a written agreement. have there been any humanitarian transaction that facilitated from the iranian funds held? >> urban two transactions per. >> to transactions okay. he said there have been none out of qatar. have there been issues or problems identified and transactions identified? >> i am familiar with the request of the chair regarding some matters related to financial institutions. we have prepared a response to that and they'll be forthcoming i believe today. to be inappropriate for me too speak in an open setting about the financial institutions in detail. will be happy to in a close heading speak more of a particular matter but. >> 's is yes or no. you are not giving us and any information. have there been problems or issues with this transfers? >> the transactions? we have confidence in the series of restrictions we have in place in the due diligence. >> mr. rosenberg you are sliding into bureau cap. you are going soft around the edges on this. it is a simple question. the answer is what i interpret as you cannot answer in this open setting but have there been problems? >> i procured the question. would be happy in a closed setting speak you about the particular transactions. cliques will take that as a yesbut all right my time has expired i'm at that and went to recognize the request of the ranking member of the subcommittee -- the committee ranking member of the gentleman from california. >> thank you very much. the united states had a long-standing bipartisan policy to explicitly exclude certain humanitarian activities from sanctions restrictions. specifically humanitarian acceptance allowed in agricultural commodities that have medical devices such exception reflect the sanctions program. including those related to iran. these humanitarian exceptions basic respect for all human life. they are also important to our broader national security issues. right now there's a very serious humanitarian crisis occurring in gaza. of the bite administration was able to successfully negotiate a temporary cease-fire to allow for more humanitarian assistance, much more is needed. can you discuss the importance of humanitarian exceptions in the context of what's happening in gaza and u.s. strategic interests in the broader region? and the elimination of humanitarian exceptions to sanctions. and what that would mean for the innocent civilians in gaza? >> thank you very much for the question. it is correct the ability there are exceptions that exist to pay for agricultural and medicine and a matter of long-standing policy they are enshrined in congressional statutes over the years over many programs. over a successful congresses they are an executive authority as well over a variety of administration. and as you say that respects human life it respects core value of congress of the administration. provided for meaning basic human needs. the ability to pay for humanitarian goods, apply across an array of sanctions program to the extent where there is a need you were noting in gaza are exceptions exist there as well but which is to say sanctions should not be and we will work so they cannot be here restrictions on humanitarian assistance there as elsewhere. one note i would add, given we are here to discuss iran and his support for terror including through proxy groups in the region and our concern about the potential diversion of aid to work diligently to ensure humanitarian aid some circumstances restricted with great clarity on the fact it would be a humanitarian aid. on fast it will be a three humanitarian aid. i would reiterate what assistant secretary said in terms of this administration commitment of support on humanitarian issues which echo support across multiple administration for addressing humanitarian issues. also having these humanitarian carveouts in our legislation that allow the proper due diligence inventory and transaction to go to people across the world. including in areas where we have very strong disagreements about their policy approaches. since october 7 president biden and secretary blinken have emphasize our support for israel. and israel's right to defend themselves against back terrorism. at the same time president biden secretary blinken have also emphasized the focus on humanitarian support for gaza. >> thank you. my college of the other side of the aisle has a legend parts bite is weakened or sanctioned. my understanding is president biden has increased sanctions as a trump administration. i factor to transaction waivers that are the focus of this hearing are actually carried over from the trump administration. could you please confirm these are the same sanctioned waivers in the trump administration that have been continued by the by demonstration? is that true? >> thank you very much. yes, in terms of the waiver with regards to eye rocks in iraq's purchases of electricity from my ron this is a 21st time this waiver has been issued. though this administration has been very clear about our support for iraq and that's what this is about i'm happy to get into more detail and as mr. rosenberg said. >> time too. >> let you finish the sentence with a gentle it is time has expired. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much i yield back. orcs without the gentleman from texas is recognized for five minutes per. >> mr. chairman thank you very much. what is happening today, these subcommittee under the leadership of our young chairman is trying to ask questions because as you know as required by law, there is a report that was issued to congress. there is only one sentence in the report regarding the trip payment transfer in the most recent november iraq e. i have got a copy of your statement here. the statement says his secretary also certifies that france, italy based exceptional circumstances. preventing them from significantly reducing the petroleum products, purchases from iran. i get it with france. italy has reserves of 1.3% of what it already uses. i do not know what the exceptional and significant is there. almon has proven reserves of 79.4 times its annual consumption. and yet this secretary is chosen to fool the united states congress into believing significant and exceptional rather than provide the data and information. the problem is we have been around for a while. and remember the obama administration five different times argued the case they can only get cash and billions of dollars and the only way they can do it is in cash. we know you cannot follow the cash. we do not know where that went. the obama administration argued we are for the israelis but kept giving billions of dollars to cash. hamas only has about 500 million dollars a year. and yet these administrations granted the democratic side, give billions of dollars cash to the iranians where it is just slush money. just go give it out. there is no way to follow the money. there is no explanation in this report as to why it necessitated the payment transfer support i will give you two minutes. i would like for him to answer the question of what should have been here in this report. >> thank you very much mr. congressman. thank you for the opportunity. >> i'm sure you are delighted. >> of welcome the opportunity because at the heart of it what this waiver is about is our support for iraq her to cross administration renewed. >> why did you blame oman unexceptionable circumstances and significance, why did you use those terms for someone who has 79 times but their annual needs are? >> thanks for much of the question. multiple administrations have approved and renewed these waivers to allow iraq to continue to purchase electricity from my ron. overtime money has accrued in these accounts that are in iraq and subject to all of the restrictions that have remained in place because we have not lifted any sanctions against iran. over time as the money has accrued, iran has sought to use it as a point of leverage over iraq and pressured iraq to release this money. to give it back in certain ways and iraq has stood firm. so with this waiver and with the previous waiver have sought to stand firm with iraq as it continues to improve its energy independence and work with iraq to get these iranian funds of the restricted accounts in iraq were iran is able to leverage iraq to release this money or transfer in a way that would potentially not be subject to all the restrictions in place. >> i think your use of terms and hiding in my opinion behind this need for humanitarian support iraq and all of these things. we are dealing with america's greatest chair on that is the iranians and you are giving them cash. mr. chairman i yield back. >> thank you gentleness time has expired that the gentlewoman from texas mr. garcia is recognize her five minutes. >> think it mr. chairman and thank you for the witnesses presence today. and i echo many of the comments made by some of mike, colleagues in condemning the rise of anti-semitism is a phobia and the hate in all forms here in the united states and abroad. everyone in this room and across the world saw that gruesome images and heard the heartbreaking stories of those impacted by the october 7 attack on israel by hamas. attacks like these reinforce the united states must maintain its steady global leadership abroad. and this only strengthened during the bite administration. terrorist groups like hamas and hezbollah there is no question about that. making u.s. sanctions critically important pretty heard testimony today focus on to sanctions, waivers by the united states earlier this year. i want to inquire specifically further the 60 billion transferred from south korean banks to qatar. secretary told congress that u.s. and qatar have agreed to effectively block the front and on a case-by-case application that money would be spent under the current arrangement will be denied for the foreseeable future but would you provide specific examples or that he met humanitarian channels are replaced to prevent any funds from being used for terrorist financing? that not 1 penny has been spent. >> thank you for the question. it is the case there have been no transfers from the $6 billion some help and financial institutions i will offer an explanation of the measures in place to prevent the diversion to non- humanitarian purposes. i think there are three levels of controls on the restricted phones. in the first instance the financial institutions themselves applied their own know your customer in due diligence. in certain instances they have adopted a policy for potential recipients of funds these would be affirmed and agricultural activity, medicine, and medical device supply companies for example. there's also these financial institutions have adopted a policy would be in the position to receive the funds which is to say all those have been on boarded and vetted for customer awareness. that is one level the intensive and enhanced due diligence as a financial institution for on top of that comes the restrictions from the european union. these are the kinds of controls. note your controls incumbent upon institutions that operate within the eu. this is because as noted previously the funds are in year old which means there is a necessity when clearing your transactions you are in line with european policies on anti- money laundering and a second layer of control has to do with european standards a third level of control has to do with the united states and the restrictions that we, as a treasury department places on these accounts, on these restricted funds but we will note there is no u.s. nexus to these friends nor house there been any but the point. nevertheless we have impose our own restrictions on these accounts in these institutions. these qatar institution and get involved in her own anti- money laundering and funding restrictions. it requires a financial institution to notify this treasury department when ever they seek to engage in any transfer. back to the original point no transfers have so far occurred. >> note transfers have occurred? >> that is corrected. >> are you concur or do you have anything to add to her response? >> i concur with her response thank you. >> you sit earlier not 1 penny has been spent. >> it is corrected. >> not 1 penny? >> correct. >> it's worth repeating some don't seem to hear i want to make sure the public heard that not 1 penny has been spent precooked exactly not 1 penny has been spent. >> thank you nec my time is running out i yield back. >> the gentility's time has expired mr. rose from tennessee is acknowledged for five minutes. >> thank you chairman and thank you to our witnesses for being with us today. i'll has the placing of envoy on unpaid leave affected your offices ability to effectively function? >> thanks very much for the question. as a deputy special envoy at the state department i am in charge of the day today of our our run policy and nothing has changed in terms of our implementation of that policy. we work across the department and across the inner agency to continue to advance president biden and secretary blinken focus on countering iran which means a top adversary and state-sponsored terrorism. >> could you provide any clarity as to why the security lawrence was suspended? >> enforced and the and the position today to speak to personnel or security clearance issues. >> is that something perhaps you all could answer and a classified setting? they know the department is engaged but that i am not in the position. >> if it is possible to get more clarity on that in that setting we would appreciate it, i would. >> would certainly take the question back. >> in september the department of treasury established what it called the humanitarian channel i think we are all familiar with that action to administer 60 billion in iranian assets from south korea. it is described as a way to quote further facilitate the flow of humanitarian assistance the people of iran. assistant secretary at rosenberg why did treasury decide to create a quote humanitarian" channel and is this a common mechanism for treasury? >> thank you for the question. as to the y out would be happy to defer to my state department colleague given this is pursuant to a deal on the detainees. as between iran and united states i will defer on that. this is they regarded as precedents for this customer in andthe last administration is an effort to establish -- there was an establishment of humanitarian chat channel to pursue the same goal which is to say take iranian funds, which are highly restricted. that could be used only for humanitarian purposes. i came to what i just described in my prior question and grade there is precedent for this. this is another example that builds on lessons learned and is an different jurisdiction. >> i will let you clarify this as well but is there a stark difference between a humanitarian channel and other escrow accounts that are available to iran or humanitarian trade purposes? either one of you? >> i can answer that. it is the case there are special conditions around a humanitarian channel which is to say the establishment of such a channel is exclusively designed and established exclusively for humanitarian payments. as i was noted before it can be the case certain potential recipients they can only be customers of an institution's is designed for that purpose. generally speaking u.s. law policy and sanctions allow for payment as well as for other countries subject to sanctions to pay for humanitarian transactions. this is a particular channel established with conditionality around it. it could be permitted to pay for humanitarian goods and a different account. but subject to it would not be us established exclusively progress give us a sense of what data treasury is relying on to ensure the humanitarian channels are the most effective way to get the appropriate assistance to iranian citizens how are you measuring it? what is the data source are you using to measure that effect? >> it is an interesting question. i would offer our highest purpose here in the purpose that guides our policy over all is to ensure iran does not have access to money it can use for tear and destabilization. >> our time has expired i would appreciate if you might expand on that for the record, thank you. i yield back. >> a gentleman yields back. without the ranking mare from texas mr. green is recognized for five minutes. >> and go to the next member is available for question. >> and sartre mr. green this will be our last. unless were willing to do a second round which i'm happy to do another more questions. >> mr. chair i would refer you to committee rules and i will quote the chair shall wear its practical refer to the ranking member with respect to the order of recognition for minority members. i reserve you go to a member who is prepared to speak on your side. >> happy to engage in this conversation about our rules. you have control of your side of the aisle. if you do not have any more members you are the last one. so therefore it is your turn. i have more members on my side and that is the discretion of the chair. i'm not doing anything funky with the rules it is your turn. i know you would like to have the last word but that's not how this works. we have more members over on the side the majority is going to get the last word. the gentleman can bypass his ability to have a question. i am happy to go to a second round of questioning. i know i certainly have more questions. food did the gentleman agreed to a second round of question requested gentleman asked the chair adhere to the rules and in so doing would respect my right to pass. i appreciate your highly technical terminology of the funky. [laughter] this is in my opinion something that is appropriate under the rules. >> the gentleman will understand i am adhering to the rules which is you get to determine had the ranking member go first. you always nicely defer to your members and always go at last on your side of the aisle. if we are ending this hearing at ease the joy is only right but because we have enough people over here as we alternate the gentleman from pennsylvania is going to go last. it is the ranking member's choice as to whether he wants to claim his five-minute time. then on. >> we have deferred to the ranking member on his side. we have given him the ability to choose to have a full ranking member. hold on. please tell matt you recognize how foolish and childish this is. sir. >> allow me too respond to that. it was not necessary for you to use the term foolish and childish but i've been very respectful hold on for a moment i've been very respectful of you. you will respect me. respect me. >> the gentleman knows i have full respect. >> foolish and childish is not the way to address a member of congress breakers excuse me sir i was referring to the staff behind us that was interrupting our proceedings. i don't think you referred to the staff a big. >> actually i did as i turned around. >> i would say that it's inappropriate for a member but. >> was a gentleman like to proceed? the gentleman the member, i reserve it. >> the gentleman just to be clear of the ruling of the chair will be that the gentleman is forfeiting his five minutes. the gentleman from pennsylvania it will be recognized at that will be the end of the hearing. that is your choice because i appeal the ruling of the chair regrets that is your choice i haven't done anything yet i am giving you your options. or we can continue on with a second round i am happy to then go back if you like to get the ranking member or at ms. garcia or any of your other members here happy to do that. but either going to recognize you for your five minutes or i'm going to recognize a judgment for five minutes and when the gentleman from pennsylvania is done the hearing is done. what is your choice? >> may ask you a question would you be so kind to receive a question as to chair? >> it's >> absolutely projects your contention is a judgment from pennsylvania to be the very last person? >> unless we have more members on our side or your side show up. >> would you hold for a moment? >> happy too. 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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> all right for the fine folks on c-span better riveted by what's been going on with the discussion of our committee rules, tradition is that we alternate majority to minority, majority always starts the majority always closes. that request has been to be changed. i'm having an understanding with the ranking member now we will be at his request running through the rest of our committee members. the republican committee members. he will then claim the last five minutes of questioning at which i will grant him in extended time for closing remark at which point i will have that same amount of time for my closing remarks to end the hearing. so after lots of back-and-forth it is now the gentleman from pennsylvania is recognized for five minutes. >> think it mr. chairman. so do you think the $60 billion will be only used for humanitarian purposes you pretty much she did that, right? even though the iranian president use it whenever they needs. certainly would not believe everything the iranian president. >> the reigning president should not be believed in this case you pick and choose when you believe him and don't believe him for. >> we do not trust the iranians review them as. >> why do you think the aid would not be used for other purposes? you understand what the word fungible means? you're pretty educated. you know what fungible means? iran is $50 million negative $50 million going to use that for food and then they get a new $50 million they can use the new $50 million for food and use the old $50 million to buy weapons for terrorists. you get that, right? sir? why don't you think that's going to happen if you don't trust them? >> thank you very much for the question. i have full confidence into diligent measures assistant secretary rosenberg has outlined for this money it can only be used. >> is an expression the bridge in brooklyn i like to show you and see if you are interested in. that is just absurd and i think you know it's. and you'll probably write it that way but what about the $10 billion from iraq? that's not fungible either? that would be highly monitored we will watch every penny goes? >> in terms of due diligence both of these sets of funds can be used for humanitarian transactions. >> in theory and a weak theory protects against a regime we do not trust we know is embalming american forces as we speak. $6 billion you cite not 1 penny not one more penny, not one more penny is that permanent? is that permanent not 1 penny of the $6 billion will go to iran? clicks as we said we do not expect the money to go anywhere any time for. >> can you guarantee me it's not it is permanent? assault based on u.s. law. shouldn't cite not 1 penny yet has gone to the iranian terrorist regime. >> it's more of a correct statement. >> of the sanctions and i remember saying the sanctions in iran are now stronger and then during the previous administration even though iran's reserves went from $4 billion to god knows where, $80 billion. until the world the sanctions today are stronger than they were under the previous administration. it's been a reversal of fortune. >> this administration we have not lifted any sanctions against iran. we have force numbers of sanctions. nearly 10 times it was four years ago is it true the amount of oils being exported nearly 10 times more than it was four years ago? even though you do not change the sanctions is that true? the oil exports from bayreuth have fluctuated over time there are a variety of reasons for that. but what does remain in places all of our sanctions which we continue perfectly sanctions are not working clearly. in fact they're one tenth what they were before enforcement. the international atomic energy agency found many violations. i was there, of the iranian enrichment taking place in iran many violations. could iran be trusted to abide by those so-called rules that are trying to be worked out with a bite administration with no surprise inspections in place? >> thank you for the question. bite administration has been clear we will never let iran get a nuclear weapon. one of the things we have done is continue to encourage our partners and allies depressed iran to cooperate more fully with the iaea. be engage regularly with the iaea this is one of our top priorities. >> i hope so. do you agree iran is a primary supporter of terrorism and the number one supporter of hamas, hezbollah, the houthis and behind the nearly 100 sacks on american forces in the last two months? >> we have minced no words about our concerns about iran support for terrorist groups premix thank you yelled back. quick to jump on assignments expired per the ranking member's request we will once again go to a republican member on this side per gentleman from iowa mr. nunn is recognized for five minutes. everyone in this room is dedicated to protecting the nine states and the bipartisan work on this committee to hold iran accountable. there is work that needs to continue her this is one of the reasons we are the financial services committee today because on october 7 the attack on israel was one of the most heinous elements we have seen and we can all agree iran was one of the main funders of this attack to occur by hamas. challengingly in the united states is stalling and freezing around assets explain dollars in illegal oil spills women good on this committee and proud to lead the commitment we will never transfer that money to iran. however they are considering to move an unprecedented amount of oil out of the country for sale through a ghost armada. when briefed on this the classified setting and the public setting today will talk on class level. we understand this amount of new funding, over $80 billion or four 100% increase since the top sanctions we talked about has actually increased. it is precipitated a number of threats of the region but not just to israel but her own forces right in the middle east areas i have flown multiple combat operations out of received over 100 attacks of that have been highlighted today in the last weeks alone for a dream at times a counterintelligence shady tactics of the iranian regime and their work to combat u.s. interest in the region as well as our allies by undermining through the various nefarious relationshipswith hame houthis rebels and ultimately through the iranian revolutionary guards corps. so let's get started pretty want to talk to ms. rosenberg. talk to us about how the a radiance -- mccue worked on treasury how are they able to get oil out of a run through the sanctions using ships that fall i under false flag? clicks thank you very much for the question. iran uses a variety of methods in order to try and earn money. >> talk to me specifically about the ships let's get to it. >> using obscured means from companies a network of individuals who are not who they say they are. they look to flag registries and insurance providers for. >> an interesting point on the insurance providers. what has treasury done to clamp down on the ships cluster because ultimately they fly under false flag's, the insurance companies ultimately are the ones we have the ability to help stop this. what have you done to stop the insurance providers? >> if they have any touch point to u.s. jurisdiction we have opportunities for critics great how if we shut down? what's the issue you are getting at here is that iran looks to fly-by-night providers that would seriously concern all of us in terms of their ability to pay if there is a bill or security situation for. >> i would agreeably identify it in the of the insurance writers and taken action? surround is is down here progress 40% the fleet as we understand to the united against iran nuclear it says there's a u.s. company the american steamship company providing it. what action i would taken against the american steamship company right here in u.s. soil? >> getting to your points, any u.s. person insurance provided scholarships broken, flagging authority, trader, anyone involved in the movements of orion oil has obligations and liabilities. >> i understand that we all do so will he be done to hold them accountable? what's in the specific entity you asked about i do not have an answer for you and i'm happy to follow-up. >> beyond the pale we have asked this question multiple times. you are treasury what other u.s. entities are providing insurance to iranian ghost lead ships? >> know that i'm aware of. >> and going to hold you to that. let's follow up then. i want to talk with you are you aware iran is a history of freeing up funds providing assistance to proxies in the region for terrorist purposes? >> yes we have long expressed our concern about iran support progress we talk about humanitarian aid piece let's talk it's gone before u.s. review we have seen iran has a long history of taking money intended to help the iranian people and use it to fund terrorism would you agree with that? >> we've long expressed our concerns about this for. >> tangible action you take him to clampdown on this. >> well we have first of all works very closely with our treasury colleagues to ensure strict due diligence. >> agreed hasn't stopped any of the flow? i've only seen increases. in terms of the flow of oil, we also have a series of actions that we continue to rule out to address these issues. in addition to sections of diplomatic outreach a variety of different countries and we are aware they are involved. >> i would like a listing of all the actions and of action resulted in a reduction of oil flow out of a run into terrorist groups thank you mr. terrio my type accident on assignments expired i will remind everyone on the committee they are able to submit through the chair questions in writing to our witnesses who are expected to respond promptly. now, find the long-awaited gentleman from texas mr. green the ranking members recognized for five minutes before we will then move to a separate two minute closing. the gentleman is recognized for five minutes and then an additional two minutes. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i am going to read from an article that was printed on super 12 go-betweens with related be admitted into the record date my colleagues, this is not contained in the article, are concerned about fungibility. but it is selected fungibility. not a lot of concern about what happened with money in cash of the previous administration. the article isn't sent millions to gaza for years with israel's backing. here's what we know about the controversy will deal. i shall not read it in its entirety i will read excerpts. when did the qatar payment start? in 2019 and nine made monthly names to gaza strip. some 50 million sent to gaza in cash filled suitcases. there is talk earlier about cash. and how it is fungible. the money it was supposed to go into gaza to help with payments to people who were working. to help the persons who live in gaza. but cash is supposed to be fungible. 15 million sent in cash filled suitcases delivered by qatar through israeli territory after months of negotiation. and then it goes on to read israel approve the deal. in a security cabinet meeting on august 2018 when netanyahu was serving as previous tenure as prime minister. the u.s., under the trump administration i'm adding, was aware of the qatar payments to hamas. decision of the palestinian helped him make the case that he had no partner for peace in palestine thus avoiding pressure for peace talks that could lead to the establishment of the palestinian state. you see this money was sent to hamas or the persons in gaza because the palestinian authority was withholding making payments and as a result this was to fill in this gap. now here is what a former israeli prime minister on cnn sunday after years of concerns to netanyahu when he was prime minister education in the senate he stopped the suitcase transfers when he became prime minister in 2021. and here is an exact quote from him. i stocked the suitcases because i believe horrendous mistakes to allow hamas to have these suitcases full of cash that goes directly to reordering themselves against israelis. this is an exact quote. why would we feed them cash to kill us? continuing. under the fungibility given to us by my colleagues when you give money, and the united states was aware of all of this under the trump administration. i'm bringing this for many reasons. i believe in a two state solution so strongly i have a resolution that i filed indicating that we should have a state for the palestinians. we filed a such a resolution to benefit of the israelis and i support israel. i voted for more than $50 billion, but i think it is time for us to have a palestinian state and i regret. >> the time is expired and we will put two minutes on the clock for you to have a closing statement. by the discretion of the chair i'm giving you up to two minutes. >> is that because you have to as well? >> the gentleman is recognized for one minute. >> we agreed. and if you want to change at least respect me enough to say let's change the agreement to -- >> which is why i'm saying one minute. i was attempting to give the gentleman up to two minutes, but with respect to the handshake agreement the gentleman will be recognized for one minute. friends, as you can see these issues can become quite contentious. but here's where we are. fungibility is something that was contemplated i'm sure when the for the protocols were drafted. i am not sure how you can contend people can't process the funds these ways but here's the point. we still want to provide humanitarian assistance to people who need it. i support humanitarian assistance. what i don't support is an empowering hamas so that hamas could be the perfect enemy and utilize hamas because it wants to destroy israel and say i can't negotiate for peace. we can't have a two state solution because it isn't amenable to that kind of peace talk. that is what i'm opposed to and i yield back the balance of my time. >> we now recognize myself for one minute close. keeping money in iraq was a benefit to iran. are we to assume that iran didn't support the transfer to another jurisdiction? i didn't think so. it's clear it was at the request for iran to the biden administration. she said that she couldn't tell us or wouldn't tell us today in an open setting if there had been problems with the transactions that had been acknowledged. saying yes or no is not classified but i guess if the answer is yes you apparently didn't want to confirm that on the record. about the controls but the europeans don't have control. he repeatedly said that there hadn't been any transactions to be clear third been to transactions with money and that there were problems in the she wouldn't answer that so what i think he meant to say is there hadn't been any transactions yet. it remains outstanding and i expect the treasury will produce an outstanding documents quickly. it's my duty to inform everybody that have additional questions that all members will have five legislative days within which to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses for the response. i ask our witnesses to please respond promptly as you are able and this hearing is adjourned. 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