>> good morning and welcome to the united states institute of peace. a public nonpartisan institution established by the united states congress to prevent, mitigate, and resolve conflicts around the world. i am the senior advisor for religion and inclusive societies in the institute. religion has been a part of the institute work almost from the moment that we opened our doors. this is the longest running somatic program that the institute has and we are focused on studying, engaging with and working with religious doctors around the world as they work to prevent and solve conflicts in their respective homelands and countries. for this reason we are very privileged to welcome today to the institute a visiting delegation from the all ukrainian council of churches and religious organizations. some of them we are welcoming back to the institute and some i have had the pleasure of meeting on previous travel to kyiv. i want to welcome him -- today and we also have the secretary general of the form for promoting peace in muslim societies. we are also delighted to be partnering on this event with the eurasia senator and the atlantic council as well as -- from ukraine and we will be hearing from ambassador hurts later. the sip has been doing work on the intersection of religion in ukraine for quite some time. we have been in a research and analytic vein, tracing key developments and dynamic since 2018 and we have the pleasure of welcoming the primate of the orthodox church of ukraine and last year, we publish the inaugural edition of our new series focused on ukraine and i am delighted that just last week we were able to finally publish our full-scale religious landscape study of ukraine. it is available on the -- website. and certainly, it speaks about this extensively. we have come to see the many intersections of religion and the key role that faith-based organizations, many of them tied to religions represented here. the crucial role they played in the early weeks and months of the war in terms of providing humanitarian services and relief. we have seen more negative and disruptive sides including missiles, russian missiles, and artillery strikes on religious facilities and churches. we have seen the complex politics and security concerns rise up around the historical ties of one branch of the ukraine orthodox church to russia. through all of these complexities and challenges, this has been a unique and crucial voice allowing the religious leaders of ukraine to speak collectively and in solidarity with each other in support of the ukrainian cause. i am delighted to turn things over to my colleague and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. masha you panovich. >> thank you very much. it is a privilege to be here. i know many of you are experts. i'm not going to do introductions because we don't have that much time. i want to go right to questions and we will have about 20 minutes of questions from me and then questions from the audience. i have two instructions. we are hoping that you do at least one round of questions with everybody. so that everybody is close to godliness in this context. i would like -- to lead us in prayer. >> at this moment, we remember all those who have fallen in ukraine. fighting for freedom. of our country and we keep them in our prayers. the ukraine soldiers and the inhabitants that lost their lives and who suffered because of russian aggressive invasion. we pray for refugees and for those who voted and suffered because of mental -- the mental wounds and we pray for peace with ukraine. we ask the help of god for everyone who helps to provide this. those who are working to create this piece for ukraine and for europe. i ask to keep one moment in silence in remembrance of those who lost their lives because of this. because of this russian invasion and aggression. >> thank you, ml thank you.u. >> thank you. i will turn to you first. i was hoping you could set the stage for this it discussion and tell us the purpose of this trip. obviously it is an ecumenical trip and that is significant. and what you hope to accomplish in the united states. >> first i would like to say thank you, as always, to our good partner, the united states. as well, thank you to those that help our delegation to be here. on behalf of all our delegations and the council, all of our partners who made this visit possible because, even to reach the united states for those that live in ukraine is very perilous. we are here because many important reasons. first of all, we would like to express our deepest gratitude to the people of the united states, the governments, and government organizations who were supporting ukraine at this dark time in our history. we have deepest gratitude for those who understand our sufferers and to share our pain and who really help us to achieve the victory and the truce in ukraine. our other goal is to present in person ukrainian religious freedom, diversity, deep mutual understanding and cooperation. because this is a nongovernmental institution which created, by our own will, 25 years ago. we have 15 members from different churches who represent almost 95% of the entire ukraine religious community. we have representatives of different denominations, the muslim community and jewish community. and, it is a very unique example of not just peaceful coexistence of people who have different faiths and national identity but deep and fruitful mutual --. and, for more than 25 years we had a number of meetings and we know from our experience how it is important to just present ourselves because, just now, in the current world, it is one of the most important examples. we try to bring this good news from ukraine, that inside ukraine, we have this cooperation. we have enjoyed freedom of religion and belief. we protect this right and last but not least, our goal is to share our experience because we have weakness with the atrocities going on in our country. we have -- different from the grassroots level and we understand what our nation needs and we try to share with our partners here because only together we are able to prevent very real catastrophe or a third world war. i think with the help of the partnership of -- people in the united states and around the globe, they know that we can achieve victory in ukraine and around the world. >> thank you. rabbi bleich, i don't know if you want to expand upon that with the views among religions and ukraine and the status of freedom and religion for the jewish faith. >> first, we are not ecumenical. that is the first thing. that is what keeps the peace and that is an important point. what brings us together is the fact that we are all representing religious communities and different faiths, obviously, but when you come around the table, it is not me and my face against you and your faith but it is as together as people of faith faith against the challenges that we have in ukraine and around the world. this is what keeps us together. it is the blueprint that keeps us together. we did not start out that way but, in 2003, and especially 2004, the council understood that our power is being a nongovernmental organization. that is where power lies. but really to have a totally independent organization and thank god we are successful in doing that. that is really where the success in the power of the council is. living in ukraine -- and i am an american citizen by the way, but i am. i don't have an accent. i witnessed the independence and i would say the different resolution revolutions. they had more than one chance. they got a chance in 1991, 2004, and 2012. and, now they have another chance. what happens is you are seeing the development of a true democracy. we thought that is great. everything is good. there are no wars and nothing is happening. but the difference between the 2004 revolution in 2014 is that in 2004 no blood was spilled but in 2014, we know that will last and staying. i, as an american citizen living in ukraine as the head of the jewish community, the moment i saw the first shot fired, i knew it was over. there was no politics, no diplomatic approaches. that was it. it was over. the approach that we are bringing here, the message we are bringing here is, first of all, just look at us. this is a real council of churches and religious organization. this is real. people are here and they want to be here and they are representing someone and we are not being chosen by the government. as far as who should be members and who should not. we have 18 members and they represent 95% of all of the faithful in ukraine, regardless of religion and that is something special. that is the first message. we sit, we talked, we have freedom. we make decisions. when laws are passed that impact religious life in ukraine, our voices heard. we are able to represent -- ukraine is obviously a political country that is not ruled by government but by religion. so, at least our voices heard and we can lobby and we can put forth our opinions and all of our opinions and all of our statements are unanimous. it is a majority ruling within the council and that is something -- it says something that we are able to bring this all together. the message that the metropolitan spoke about is the most important and that is that we represent the people. the -- foundation paid for our tickets. the -- foundation is paying for our visit here and the different foundations. we were not and are not funded by the government. so the government has nothing to say about what we say here. we represent the people love ukraine and the millions of people -- that all of these religious organizations help them. we represent the millions of people that were displaced and the women and children that are being bombed and killed every day. that is what we are here to represent. we are here to tell the story of the 10%. we know that every ngo knows that and every dollar spent by the u.s. government costs 10% for the ngo to do the same thing. for a war fought by the united states against the same enemy that ukraine is fighting with the cost of 10 times more is much. ukraine is representing and taking the heat. the only reason that rushing is fighting is for democracy. the same way that we are committed comparing that hamas is fighting israel. they are fighting democracy. i think this is very important for america. i understand the questions. what is happening to all of that money though? who knows how many people with the rank of ambassador are in ukraine looking at where that money is going from the american side. the question of where the money is going should not be to the ukraine government and the ukraine people. everything is being controlled today. it is not the wild west out there. it is not the cia smuggling arms and nobody knows who is getting them and there's envelopes of cash. again, this is our message. it is not to lobby government but to speak to the people of the united states. the good people of the united states understand what is happening. we are being killed every single day and the height of hypocrisy, when it gets up and criticizes gaza for saying there are civilians there and that innocent women and children will be killed there, he has been doing that for nine years every single day. every single day for the last nine or 10 years. civilians, women and children are being bombed. their homes are being destroyed. russia has not conquered any land there. this is our message. i hope i didn't take too much time. that is my message on to our message. to get this out to the people of the united states. >> it is so important for all of us to hear and witness what is happening in ukraine today because i think that with all of the news going on, we sometimes forget. i do want to turn to shake tamim to talk about the situation with crimea still being occupied. what is the situation in crimea and secondly, in ukraine, with so many evacuating themselves. >> first of all, you could to everybody for coming here and to invite us. we have -- that is one front. because ukraine, for us, it is a government that has joined us all together and we have -- any possibility of what we can do, we could do it in ukraine. about this situation i want to tell you that we have tried many times to oppose anyone that wants to use the delegate for their political motives. and, russia occupied ukraine and the ukraine people make the revolution. we find somebody who -- the government in --. we find that somebody that can use islam to destroy ukraine and, we organized the community for all of the representatives -- the minority. there are about 60 organizations. and, there is an islamic movement in ukraine. this is a question that is very important to defend ukraine. that is -- that is some information about us. we came here to help everybody in the government that everyone, we are representatives of the majority of the ukrainian city. we want to understand this and i want to ask who helps ukraine ? who helped ukraine? we received, like the muslim community, and the delegation comes from europe and america. but, what? we are part of ukraine and we defend our land and somebody wants to use islam to kill and use it for political reasons. i want to ask everybody, think about ukraine like one government. it must help us to save ukraine because for us, that is an example for many countries in europe. in america. i want to ask the muslim community -- you help anybody but you don't see the --. i don't understand. that is my question. >> have you received an answer to that question? >> no. not yet. >> we will want to hear what that answer is because it certainly deserves a good answer. so, bishop rusyn, i want to ask you, the evangelical community in ukraine is relatively small but influential, including having many ties in the united states. i am wondering, first of all, what your community experience has been during the war but also, your important role in the reconstruction. >> first of all i want to say thank you to all of you for supporting ukraine. i want to underline that this war is not about our land. it is about the existence, of freedom, identity, values, and culture. this is about human life. there is no space for the ukraine identity. for us, it is very clear. fight or die. we are here is people of ukraine and i am speaking to you because, my department was occupied by the russians. my seminary was hit by six missiles by the russians. we have people that were murdered. so, please hear our cry. i want to witness that we enjoy religious freedom in ukraine because for 70 years we have been persecuted and we know what it means to not have freedom but now we do have this freedom. also, i want to underline and draw your attention to the problem of religious freedom on the temporary occupied places. we are not speaking about a lot of churches and buildings taken away. we are speaking about people being murdered just because they have different faiths. so, because i am in washington and martin luther king is one of my heroes, i love his speeches -- i love his speech, i have a dream. a threat to justice somewhere is a threat to justice everywhere. there is a significant existential challenge for justice on the occupied lands. so, this is our invitation to think about freedom, justice. and i am very proud to see how different religious communities of different faiths and traditions, they join hands in order to help fellow ukrainians and we do have big plans to rebuild ukraine. ukraine has a future because we fight not for land. we fight for values. and we hope that people of the united states who love freedom justice democracy and peace will not leave us alone. thank you. >> thank you very much to all of you. so, i am going to throw it to the floor. i think you have heard a lot of interesting comments. we have not had a chance to follow up with this is your chance to follow up. who wants to be the first person? is there a microphone? do you want to bring it over? could you wait just a second. because, i think this is being recorded. >> i am jim and i wonder how you reacted to the legislation that was under consideration last week in a the rata that was attempting -- some people might say -- regulate control of the russian orthodox church in ukraine. >> so i'm going to speak some jewish. i want everyone to understand that the proof is in the pudding. we have seen freedom of religion grow and grow in ukraine. over the last 33 years, ukraine has been independent and there has been a tremendous growth of religious movement, life, and freedom. indeed, i would say when this averment came into power, they came right after ukraine had created the ecumenical church of ukraine and because that was under the previous president, politically, there was some leaning towards the ukraine orthodox church. however, the challenge that ukraine has is when there is a church that is 101% controlled by a because there are good people everywhere, it has become evident that when ukraine began this, they began arresting individual priests that were found doing things or breaking the law and working for russia within ukraine. they did begin with that. they didn't come and say let's get rid of this church. you have to understand that politically it is not a very smart move to "regulate" a church that millions of people living in ukraine are members of that church and there is no way it's faith. it's not that they'll say move over to the other church. it doesn't work that way. however, at the same time, ukraine has challenged, there is a war going on. that war is what we call a hybrid war. part of the hybridity of that war is that if russia can work through the churches, they're working through the churches. i will give you an example. i am an orthodox jew but in 2005 i personally in my office was approached by two representatives of the russian security services if i would work for them and help them create a structure whereby they could control the jewish community in ukraine and use that structure to disseminate -- they said they would give me all of the money that i need. i would have all of the power that the czar has. all i had to do was had an -- head anorganization to help them create an organization and what they told me was the reason is because they said they're trying to get ukraine to unite with russia. they're going to try and work through the civil society and organizations on the bottom. so i threw them out of my office but i don't know how many people they wept to besides me that they got to do these things. so they'll use any means that they can to get into ukraine that they'll try and control and bring their point of view and as my colleagues said to take away our freedom because they're fighting against our way of life which is democracy and freedom. that's what they're fighting against. they'll use the church for that and in general, the problem is that the head of the russian orthodox church not only that he blessed the soldiers that go out to murder us, not only -- he is even collecting money to pay private armies to go to ukraine add to kill people. that's what is happening because it's not a war against -- of the russian army against ukrainian army as we heard. this is a war of the russian army against ukrainian people. not only ukrainian ethnic people but,russian ethnic people that want to live democratically. they're the ones getting killed. i want to remind everybody the parts of ukraine that are now occupied are occupied by ethnic russians. they're not ethnic ukranians. most of the people are russian speakers. what have they done? they're murdering them. they're killing them, bombing them. there are some that in their so- called constitution is part of russia is being bombed every single day by dozens and dozens of bombs. so the church -- again, the structure of the church is very difficult. i am jewish, i will be open with you. i say what is the precedent here? they're controlling a religion and what happens if somebody else comes up and doesn't like the jews or muslims? this is a very frightening thing. i met with members of ukrainian security service about this about what is the balance that they can do to maintain the peace, to maintain the law within rule of law. you can't tell somebody, okay, if you are church you can work for the enemy. it doesn't work that way. if you are a man of faith and a leader, when you break the law, you pay for it. that is what is happening. that's why we are looking at a. of course, we are all nervous about it and worried about it and we are all concerned about it but at the end of the day, ukraine has to survive. ukraine has to thrive as a democracy and it will not happen if it is going to be controlled or parts of it will be controlled from the enemy state while the war is going. >> i would like to add something to this beautiful explanation. i am sure every single rabbi has been told, we must understand that, in 1943, stalin's government created a special institution which have title moscow church title and publicly leading by church persons. since that time, as the early governing body, is totally controlled by the kremlin. it was during the soviet time and still is during the putin's dictatorship. moreover, during the soviet time was a huge lead because of ideology. church believe in god, communist party was a community of atheists but now russia officially use religion, every kind of religion, everybody had opportunity to saw meeting between putin and number of russian religious leaders in kremlin. it looked like not a meeting between political representatives and religious representatives but, it looks like a report of some officials who reported to his highest boss what has been done. the general problem is that russian orthodox church in ukraine is controlled by governmental institutions, which bear religious titles but, in reality, it's just a part of government of russia. and what rabbi told this public blessing of russian atrocities, of war crimes, this justification, official justification -- it's not something would happen casually that during the sermon he told something unacceptable. it's a policy. you know that very concept of russian world is the ideology which justified elimination of even ukrainian identity because those who live in this ideology of russian world, they think that ukrainian identity not permitted. and the main goal of this draft law is to protect ukrainian citizens from instrumentallization of russian governmental institution because rabbi told that such attempts to control religious life in ukraine is not related to only orthodox christians but every kind of religion in ukraine. this law, it is just about protection of instruments -- from instrumentallization and we as a representatives of different communities, we can see that no one religious community in ukraine will officially have up to 60 different denominations. small, big, very different. and only one denomination, moscow, which told that they have no ties, no subordination to moscow patriarchy. they proclaimed the goals that they are independent and only want this denomination that this just law is against our interests. but in this just law, you don't find any specific name of the religion or denomination or confession or religious union. it's just about administrative subordinationto moscow. if they have no ties, no subordination to moscow. it's not related to them. but if they try to fool ukrainian society and all people of good will around the globe and use their feelings to protect religious rights, religious freedom, use to protect kremlin power and control over religious life in russia, in ukraine and other countries. i think it must be clear that it's unacceptable, and we as a council, more than half of the year ago, we met with the speaker of our parliament and we have been asked, does anyone in this room, representative of all religious denominations, does anybody against the ban on subordination of ukrainian religious community to russian centers? no one raised their voice that we are in favor, we try to keep this subordination. everybody agrees that we are all against, because we and the bishop said it, we have huge experience of more than 70 years living under kremlin control of religious life. and we very good know what is -- what it is and especially we know from experience on occupied territories, where no freedom at all, including religious freedom, to no one, if you not loyal to russian government, you have no rights. it's no matter, you are christian, orthodox, jews, muslims or someone else. and i think that this law must be treated as a law which has aimed to protect religious freedom from instrumentallization by kremlin's dictatorship. thank you. >> that is a really important question. thank you for answering it. i don't know if you want to say anything? >> i support everything that he said. as an evangelical community, we understand that our country must detect itself. we don't see this law as a threat for religious freedom. there is a very good dialogue that we have between our communities and the fellow government. >> i think that is it. >> in code 2015 it was suggested by our counsel, we tried to make contact with the representatives for a religious organization in russia and we spoke about our situation about ukraine and friendly relations but, they could not decide anything. and when josh they tried to open a new religious organization and named --. this is just the situation. everybody left ukraine and went to germany and america. >> i just want to add one thing. when they went to that meeting in oslo, they can all attest to the fact that at the meeting of the council, we talked about going to oslo to meet with russian leaders, i voted against that. and every single representative that came from russia was prepared by the russian secret service and they were not prepared by the --. you talk about democracy and you do your thing. everything and everyone is controlled by the government. that is the danger. >> i think we have time for one more question. >> i know the archbishop wanted to speak. >> if i can add a catholic voice to this question, which is raised by many -- which is parroted by tucker carlson on company -- even in the last 24 hours. in which is planted by a genocidal power that has declared that its intent is to eliminate ukraine as a country, as a culture, as an identity. it is very important to understand who is talking about this and who is bringing the attention of american government, american institutions, the global community to this question. in russia, as was said but i would like to amplify, there is no real religious freedom for anybody, any confession. all confessions are equally or not equally but all confessions lack religious freedoms. >> some are more equal than others. >> my church has probably about half a million members in russia. the ukrainian catholic church, the biggest illegal church in the world from 1945 to 1989. analogy, what is religious freedom? in the united states, we have 200 parishes for 50,000 people that go to church. 200 parishes. in russia, there are 10 times as many. we have not a single registered legal parish. it's impossible. it's impossible for ukrainian catholics in russia to have a parish. there are other confessions that are illegal. jehovah's witnesses, illegal. the catholic church in russia is stunted, involved in self- sensorship. the orthodox church is completely controlled and those and those dissidents, those priests that set an aggression against ukraine is immoral, have been defrocked. in 300 years, every time there is a russian occupation, the ukrainian catholic church is rendered illegal starting with catherine, 19th century, 20th century, 21st century. in the occupied area, there is not a single catholic priest that is functioning. roman catholic or eastern catholic. and all of our confessions understand that a russia occupation will bring the limitation or elimination of our religious freedom. so for a voice from russia to question religious freedom, exhibited here,where in the world will you see an orthodox bishop, a muslim imam, an orthodox jewish rabbi sitting together? as you said, look at us. that is very important for people to see because the eyes of the world are only discovering ukraine, and we are very grateful to the institute of peace that fosters this discovery because the issues are not simple. but the image is very clear and it's before our eyes today. >> yes. we can take one more. >> in the united states evangelical community, it is growing rapidly and it has a unique allegiance to the republican party often. and yes, the mn jewel evangelical community in the united states often aligns itself with the russian orthodox church for reasons of faith. for reasons of belief. and i find it -- i have worked with ambassador herbst with this early on that the evangelical community in the united states which is very important politically especially today in the u.s. congress, today when we are looking at whether or not to fund ukraine going forward for the next year, they need to hear from ukrainian evangelical community. they need to hear about the atrocities of the murder and torture of the evangelical pastors in occupied donbas. they need to hear about the lack of freedom from your community. what more can you and the evangelical community of ukraine do to help the community in the united states understand that the russian orthodox church is not today for all the reasons you've given, is not the example and that they should not seek to align with it when it has no respect for the evangelical community. what can the evangelical community of ukraine do to -- do to help us in the united states with that part of our citizenry? >> thank you. this is a very important question. i think we do our very best. we see that russian propaganda is extremely effective. and i don't think that only evangelical community can change -- but this is our coming. i want to work on behalf so, it is through information about atrocities. course, we need toe support and assistance of alltoe people of the united states, not just evangelical but we see this problem. >> yeah. that's a really important question. thank you. so i think we have had a very rich discussion, which is also a little bit frustrating because i have a lot more questions on just the few questions we were able to go through plus a whole bunch of other ones and i am i have a lot more questions to go through. and others to go through, as well. i think you and our panelists and asked the ambassador to come wrap it up. >> see you go, you heard it. >> thank you. thanks for putting this together. the eurasia central council is delighted to be a part of it. putin's war in ukraine is a war designed to destroy ukrainian- annie ss. by the russian media d wh by the russian media d said multiple times by russian officials in russian media. making sure that ukrainians in ukraine under russian control give up their ukrainian identity and sees to live in a community is ukrainians which is why genocide, like eugene finkel called the war on genocide. this war is a war on religious freedom, too. and it's wonderful to have all the major faiths in ukraine represented on this panel and in the audience. to make this clear. it is important because it's part of the -- the abomination of this war. it's not simply a war about territory. it's important, too, because americans believe very strongly in religious freedom. part of our constitution. part of our public debate every day. so the testimony we are hearing today from the faith communities in ukraine of the horrors that they are undergoing in russian occupied ukraine is important for americans to understand. it is important as my longtime friend natalie pointed out because there is one fraction of one party in the united states which seems to be clueless about american interests and ensuring that putin's war in ukraine fails. one part of the contest -- constituency and that fraction is evangelicals and we know how badly the kremlin treats evangelicals in russia. and russian occupied ukraine. this is a story that needs to be heard here. not just from evangelicals. it is all in our interest. then there's something else. which is really important, too. russian propaganda is a serious phenomenon. and they have successfully applied to themes which work against ukraine and common morality and also, by the way against americans. number one, they say ukraine is full of nazis and we have to make sure the nazis in ukraine are defeated. at the moment russia launched their invasion, not just a large jewish presence. a prime minister who is jewish. ukrainian jewish citizen. fortunately, not entirely, the pushback against that, the truth told against that has limited the impact. not entirely. this goes back to a letter that was published. the new york times. i think they also helped put that together back in 2014. laid out that this was a false narrative. having the rabbi and others in the jewish community. other important figures who spent many years in the soviet gulags standing up for the rights of jews to identify as jews and practice as jews . so that one, and the second one, the second main theme is still -- a mouth full. that's the notion of serious repression, religious repression in ukraine. the rabbi addressed this when he talked about priests of the russian orthodox church moscow patriarchy who are breaking the law by providing sanctuary to russian agents. maybe providing information to russian military. maybe harboring weapons. and of course, beyond that, which is why people are getting arrested in ukraine. also the non-christian, non- orthodox -- i say that as an orthodox restaurant -- behavior of the mp as they tell russian soldiers headed to the front of ukraine, hey, if you die, your sins are forgiven. pardon me, but that reminds me of the notion that the jihadi it's killed and goes to heaven and gets 72 virgins. and of course, the patriarch khalil who was an agent of kgb in soviet times, is also no funding his own mercenaries to go kill ukrainians. it would be nice if certain active american media types were to put that on the air when they're trying to slander current ukraine. lastly, the most famous quote in the history of american foreign-policy realism, is john quincy adams saying, "we don't go abroad for monsters to slay. we are the well-wishers of everyone's freedom, but the guarantors only of our own." that is a great quote. people sometimes use that to justify not providing support ukraine. if we going to ukraine, the next stop is estonia and lithuania. but let's put that aside. the other subclause that we are well-wishers of everybody's freedom. when you have so-called american journalists propagating falsehoods about ukraine, slandering those types of freedoms, that's not american. thank you. thank you very much, ambassador. thank you, too. we want to give you another round of applause. today, treasury secretary janet yellin except the u.s.- ina business council 50th anniversary dinner in washgton, d.c., where she is expected to highlight the treasury department's priorities for that u.s.-china economic relationship in the coming year. watch live coverage beginning at 7:45 p.m. eastern on c-span, on the free c-span app or online at c- span.org. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more including buckeye broadband.
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