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interdiction in the cockpit, and a hijacking, of course, would be the answer. any kind of damaged equipment. blunt trauma, either the crash axe or some other tool or weapon was used and damaged part of the console or the equipment or preferably the bodies of the pilots, you would be able to see that. so that's where you would begin to see if there's damage in the cockpit and if some struggle ensued. >> i know as i mentioned, you worked on twa flight 800. i'm curious if you were there when the families had the ability, or invited to see some of this. i know some of them were actually able to see the seats themselves that their loved ones sat on. were you there for that, and did the families tell you why they wanted to see that? >> i was not there for that at all. the people that i was consulting for, the special agents involved