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and what other conversations did he have with the president? was the president somebody he was of frayed was really directing the secret to hurt him? i think there are some of those things that they would be very interested in hearing. i think his testimony will be very persuasive to adjourn. >> i mean there is a dynamic here, david, that is very obvious to anyone who has been paying attention which is you have someone, mike pence, who is considering a 2024 run himself, he is trying to make a distinction between working with the 16 committee, differently than the doj a distinction there that i think in part he believes he can articulate and sell to a republican base, talk to me about the calculus that mike pence is up against. >> yes, mike pence is just someone lost in the woods right now, he has nowhere to go, his

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