Worlds most famous publisher Julian Assange and also more coming up in todays going on the ground but lets go straight to one of the greatest living political activists and writers who has inspired antiwar figures from malcolm x. To John Lennon Tariq Ali joins us from his north london home via skype thanks so much for coming on the program i have to declare an interest because you brought me to channel 4 in the 1980 s. And you were my boss but what would you say now to the millions who have been inspired by your work the fight for freedom and justice that youve undertaken in your life what would you say to them who are now profoundly pessimistic about the neoliberal response to a pandemic let alone gross inequality around the world well basically. We fight. Its difficult to come out on the streets because the nature of this but i make sure i take what the epidemic actually teaches is that the system under which we live it is. Really flaw. And it does not alter the worlds future that is worth living. I mean the notion of lead well is the only do not innate they prove they so much time and that still this day in wealthy people will get their way you know by saving their lives i dont write to them that well what about the rescue of the world so i take the new limb broke up with a system which is being in full snout affectively since the eightys and charm since the ninetys of the last century needs to be dismantled all the countries there are seriously attempting to come to grips with this epidemic i mean macro in france was korea it was an action is based on making france and to be near liberal state has now been full struve us all that and offering d to pay the utility bills council tax you know people not so well off except princess shows that deep down on this entire end they owe through a major government of the western world are aware that the system which theyre being defended and supporting doesnt work for a majority of the people thats the lesson to be drawn to the virus as being tackled there and should if i may just say one of the countries that are shown no panic because it is bad for these claims is the tiny island of cuba where cruise ships which are not allowed to land anyway on joke anywhere jocking in cuba being greeted by the population of solar and are being treated by the doctors and the cubans are sending free medicines all over africa now that is the model whereas in the west this didnt come to site with or to maintain sanctions against iran or venezuela which is still to. Be incomplete be discussed stick though this is still going on when those in the higher world is facing this crisis in fairness to morris johnsons Foreign Office i understand that the British Government have thanked the cuban government for taking the ship the braemar into port but certainly no condemnation from here about the u. S. Sanctions on the island i want to get on to some of those other issues a bit later and todays anniversary of the iraq war but youre also a novelist and putting your novelist hat on how do you characterize near liberal culture and art given the fact that most peoples cultural imagination of a pandemic is really from hollywood and from films that what we have to go on well i mean you know its lost both of the culture today obviously is dominated by a form of neo liberalism which bill courage is individual as some of the most group has sort of you know theres a worship of 1st celebrities that someone extremely well known on television or a very strong. Actor is almost greeted as a dog and this is really deep deep you know much much worse over the last 30 to 40 years so this. Proves various people almost not completely from thinking collectively and actually its not tell by the technology i think that the old internet revolution mistaken placing characters individual ism of course it meat i mean the number of people you run into on the buses all the tubes or i dont believe them and so even on their bikes their ears see you not from the noises of the real world if i. Put it like that their eyes sealed off from what is going on around them because theyre concentrating on those that are on the singles grange now it neednt be like this but that is what its been and i think in it on screen a. Frightening a very way what we are witnessing now is people beginning to think again beyond themselves holy wall is you know produce the old film like contagion what does that do it just creates korea i mean the pain is. Lost to create fear but to create hope not to create best 70 but to encourage people to be to be active and they is now at the station response to this crisis i mean someone wrote from send up all saying that here in south korea and in japan the the detainees testing testing the entire population regularly and not banning contact with each other except physical contact so there are many many different ways of looking at it from the fact for the chinese themselves the. Root ball to pose novels in the new base to be rooted anywhere in the country shows that actually in the interests of who are great people and have been a factor i mean why what about the United States where you dont even have 3 adults deeply shocking the richest most powerful country in the world treat its population because of capitalist dharma and the one candidate and being for a. National Health Service in the United States is most likely to be defeated by a Sleepy Joe Biden so its a very weird big chip but i think there are lessons to be i think mitt. People im saying that if this is what you have to do in emergencies why cant you change the way in we treat live well hollywood at least though is how a lot of people describe what happened 17 years ago today when the world woke up to the pictures of the u. S. And u. K. Bombing of baghdad why is it still relevant what happened in 2003 why is it still relevant to all our lives right now because its still going on thats the 1st reason that it was 17 years ago it was iraq. And the. Comments that are being inflicted on this country the brutality the cruelty the waste of not. Doing Everything Possible to find shias from sudanese and one day playing with the shia giving. Makes your arm the central are in the region and then suddenly blaming other forces for it they did it they did it now they are touting iran and theyre. Basically using the saudis to control the sunni population. And most important of all just trying the social infrastructure of that country that is will hit disaster doubtless a mess my friend noomi climbed calls it that its all day here in iraq they just strolling to an entire country and if you think about it today where the entire world is thinking about corona virus i have absolutely no doubt and i can say this with confidence that the Health Service created by the iraqi series of iraqi governments was one of the best in the middle east in order to be much better able to cope with this resident the moment. Iraq a wall to trigger off another wall in the region. Syrian. War there from created Massive Movement of populations in refugees this war is still going on even as all of europe keep. Is appealing to the United States to withdrew all its troops from the region and is being ignored you talk to many iraqis to do of all political persuasions and they will say openly we are much better off under our 2nd that is what they say can i just say can i guess a terry if anyone thinks youre an apologist for Saddam Hussein you made me work on a program in the eightys about thatchers support for Saddam Hussein what is it like actually personally given that you came under pressure for that title of your program because he was an ally of britain and then over the if its which is a matter for folks we would join for cham for if you remember who was the architect chair of fear and we were it was an ultra Political Program showing those who built these giant danticat monumental statues of a model from so the old arms went like this and dominated. The specially the military areas the parade grounds and we were doing a critical piece of this and we came under a lot of pressure not to do it i remember i should when you or someone else researching that program rack up the company in basingstoke in an area in the middle of. Which did the baddies big arms made created them and then shipped the answer to both artists and why enjoying this its a friendly. So many of us who are pro critical of. When he was actually involved. What then attacked for opposing a iraq war you live in a strange world priorities are decided by your rules and decided depending on whom the United States as settled on as the enemy of the month and this is becoming an enemy of the poor need be to get its i mean if you think about the iraq war that american soldiers are still that libya has been destroyed that syria is trying to recover from an horrific civil war then afghanistan is still occupied all of these roles of lasted longer than the 1st and 2nd world wars book to get and they carry on and what it angers will be is that citizens in most of the western world a Europe North America sleep or kerry day basically ignore a lot that governments and countries have been doing to the middle east which isnt as stated of. Refrig destruction on many many levels politically socially economically culturally and the palestinians left with absolutely nothing and the 2 basically supported by the United States israel. And egypt receiving huge subsidies to this dig for acquiescing and one has been happening. Since im a mostly men are also lots of. Monsters are emerging from the aftermath of this war people who say attack isis its the ones group who created it did it come about and i was not. Present in iraq under Saddam Hussein and it went in with the american troops and the troops of other countries supporting them so its not difficult to to to draw direct link between the bombing of both berg all those years ago and the state of the middle east today britain in the United States of course to this day completely did i agree a thing i says day ash tag ill stop you there more from jerry gulley after this short break. The outbreak and spread of the corona virus has become a black swan event for the Global Economy is no longer whether the u. S. And other economies will slip into recession the question now is how deep and how long the recession will last its going to get worse before it gets better. Welcome back im still here with tariq ali you were speaking at rallies the Largest Global demonstration in history was against the iraq war last does it not show that protest marches do not stop wars like the one that happened 17 years ago today and what difference was iraq to vietnam because obviously mick jagger and the Rolling Stone sang about your opposition to the vietnam war how is it different i think the main difference is that into the world in the ninetys in my opinion the fact that these soviet union collapsed that china the way it did created a huge wave of demoralized nation evil about those people who basically didnt serve all these governments but. So all of them is creating a space between 2 blocks and in that space we can all function and live and be critical of one year aside and we want to do ones that counterbalance disappeared the United States of the game v. Had no money and power in the global scale and people failed them and no alternatives that the iraq iraq war demonstration in my opinion was the 1st sign that people were searching for Something Else 1st day by saying dont make war on iraq and these demonstrations were huge in your but if we look back on it over a 1000000 people in london 2000000 people in madrid nearly 3000000 in a row over 200002 new york hundreds of thousands all over the phone ship cargo every American City in provincial capital state capital was him defective effected by a desire to stop the war they were ignored and one reason they were ignored is that they had no following and little support in parliament when you have the republicans and the democrats waging war. And supporting it when you have too many black band Prime Minister in britain the conservative opposition supporting the war then you know you can have 2 or 3000000 people and you know that its a reality of it and been never came out again and those numbers i remember saying at the big demonstration and. Were all trying to fight against the war dont imagine it wont take place or words to that effect and really more obscure with this start bombing where we didnt we couldnt there also satinder but effectively they got away with it but it will be wrong to draw from this the conclusion their protest is useless it may not always be effective but creating a different Public Opinion is extremely important im not now and nothings being us these really occupation has been sanctified by a crime back and terror de facto by the European Union days no chance of the palestinians getting any form of state even the most not in the. Present time nothing happens the world is. That total ghetto completely wrecked by disease the Palestinian Authority has got so used to collaboration with the israelis that they basically dont know what to do when they oppose whats playing now they participated in creating this situation where the british well it was not a marketplace thats what i say but that doesnt mean we stop arguing your baiting mobilising i mean life would be awful if one just became well the british the labor party his ministers obviously committed us to war in iraq 17 years ago obviously. Protecting israel arguably after the after the Jeremy Corbyn years why do you think that this same labor party as it were is so keen to reinvite people who are associated with the iraq war back even to the party including i mean care started a leading figure once tony blairs head of war propaganda Alistair Campbell back in the labor party is this Opposition Party does it understand what youve been saying well i think there are 2 things one has to see about the labor party while is the insurrection on little girl insurrection of the young going to Jeremy Corbyn interim our hour as fracture. In my opinion and momentum became exclusively current machine if not exclusively 80 percent of it through our low there mick in addition to that also doing a lot of political campaigning political education etc so theyre actually the strength of traditional live gruesome which is that the only thing we do which is with the election is now back in falls the left was given a chance the left was defeated not even going to ask. Searching for why the left was defeated refusing to accept their need was because labor joined him all the parliamentary moorings to prevent a referendum from being implemented to care starmer let me just say obviously associated according to the un with the persecution of julian a search from whom and because of whom we know so much more about iraq than we have a did back then how frightened are you for Julian Assange can i just as the founder of wiki leaks given hes in belmarsh prison and governors of prisons in this country obviously are worried about the spread of coronavirus im extremely worried about truly middle implementing many. I mean initially it seemed that they were imposing a regime not really cheating on him in that prison which could have led to a no the defense that his order number of doctors said and then the governor of the prison. Brutish rager who none of the judges wanted to try to change because its not needle thats the governors domain which is not for breast baring befall them is not in effect state to give evidence they have every right to challenge. The governor of the prince who julian is deliberately being mistreated the case is completely manufactured new smells so the u. N. Report on torture has made a very powerful intervention saying that the what took place in sweden when he was accused of rape something you always deny was offending crap and processed and designed to discredit him and lose or we close relatively successful i think many people seem to prove that but the fact is that this accusation against judea on Security Matters is completely bizarre and everyone else it is the americans know its the only when they can get him back into the states the british and know that this is a political decision it has nothing to do with the law and are going along with it and i hope that some sense prevails when the case goes to the Supreme Court and this concrete because it is quite shocking what has happened to julie and i hope years said were to go to mess a many many years ago has learnt a few lessons. From that and i think this is something wait show even Boris Johnson who is being the most of his life we journalists should understand if you agree to. What the americans are asking you to do i mean today in for a dream as jews exposed war crimes tomorrow it could affect other journalists who spose other things which the United States didnt want to expose an american soldier already have set washington as did any foreign journalists the u. S. Constitution doesnt apply to them so they can pick anyone up and take their him all over to washington to be trite since most governments do their bidding any certainly the torture has been written about people who watch our interviews with meals well to the un special rapporteur on torture better if one can forgive a media in a Coronavirus Crisis for not covering a son is not covering the the continued bombing of iraq backed by britain of by the United States and in the past few days. There is a just nation b