st december. 1953 on a journey to the most of the city where they we didn't really just lead us. all right, let's look at the news for now. up next to the worlds of parts. the hello and welcome to worlds apart. suppressing an issue in the whole that it will go away by itself is a common strategy for dealing with challenging and unpleasant realities. and sometimes it works. but clearly not in the case of israel and palestine, then take as long procrastination as addressing the problem in an authentic and meaningful way has led to such an accumulation of a range and violence that the state of course is no longer sustainable. is there still a civil way out? well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by a booth, a former member of the lebanese parliament advisor to a former lebanese president, michelle allen. mister zavy, it's great to talk to thank you very much for being available. thank you for giving me this opportunity. now, in my introduction, i just said the, the status quoting these rarely posting and conflict seems no longer a sustainable. but i wonder if you actually agree with that with this latest or option of wildlands. do you think the problem can still be put on hold, that is israel retreating through its previous strategy or mortifying its own defenses and sealing of gals, or from the rest of the world? and frankly, from a dignified life? well, i think we have to all of us, all of the sudden focus a lot of people have to have this ability to just say that the special score has to be maintained. otherwise you'll be able to flinch water, which nobody was. it's not nobody's desires on both the sites, but for this to happen, we have to get a hold of usual from a different perspective because i may say which means and justice. i mean, uh we have in the past to stop this. i guess i'm to stop that, it's a, it's a way of disregarding the dsl for determination for the both students all over these channels. savings about 75. yes. i've anything that the bible from that on and measuring the state. so once this is being added as accepted, if they both think, man diplomatically, i think we, uh, everybody would be happy to see the solution if this was only seconds by what's happening and doesn't missed those 8. i mean, it must be all one that i think this the current status for is based actually on the invoice and denial all for the palestinian rights and the palestinian dignity, you know, normal life to millions of the palestinian people. and i think it's fair to say that for many decades keeping gaza on duplicate has been israel's preferred strategy. and that's uh essentially how they've been conducting that policy of israel in deep moves into guys or do you think they actually understand what they are going to encounter there? do you think israel is fully aware of what kind of consequences it will have to deal with? i think they do, they do find the decision to answer them to guys have to go for the aid of 40. if i'm a, let's say around the fact because they should be, i have especially the up or what happened to them on the 2nd of october. that was taken by surprise. and this the best, the best for them. but they will not be bad. they sold up, everything is going to be according to the agenda, but things have changed. if i've seen does that have changed? and as, as you just mentioned before, if we look at the stuff just go as it was before, just to keep an eye. you know, if i've seen the lights outside of determination to have the entire stage and that sort of the and so on. so i and song this b is a continue with the op ex, 3 minutes on both sides of the function you with your floor report as well as the stop by locating the desktop which they did. busy several years but has changed, nothing just has increased the vehicle and increased a gave how boss of the, you know, groups assigned it is. busy part of the, of the a whole bunch sides there is a, will define both arms on it. all right? so i suspect that this time have been on the 15th when they will be paying your very high price. now if we put aside the emotional land rhetoric on political reasons for, they need to know who govern government because to some extent they are wiping out of the steri around the take over all guys a to cover for their own security family is that's pretty clear and i think given these rarely media, i recognize that, but if you put all of that aside, it seems that the full scale invasion of guys that goes against israel's interest. because as a just sad it's, it's impossible to even imagine what kind of consequences they will have to face. because you know, 3000000 people who are highly antagonistic towards israel and are likely to remain sol for many, many decades. why do you think the uh, these really government is still uh, storing on this hornets nest. why do you seeing the sort of is telling the whole world that they're about to invade gaza? they will, they're, you know, they have the most very high expectations. they wanted to a, to a thought goes up as to why does this have to. ready finish because it would come us and secondly to maintain or but i'm the governors over there about for this. happen it besides the dustin that used to have blake stood a minute or defended with millions of people to see what's going on and goes that these days they usually bump up and. busy by and different parts of both weapons on the uh, from implants, from. ready see what type of do you just name of as well. so what's going on? more schedule is mandated children, women to really is i've had being killed and if they go up and she had the box or good expectation as a government in order to face and have to save the pace as zillow. nathaniel is in deep. i think i'm probably because i'm the vision inside those very familiar. did you know what happened? dr. be after the 7. ok, they fault a unit. the government or let's say in medicine government. but this would be for this are fine but cheap while they are what they. busy want it's got they've done lots of guys with this from that side and nobody. ready sure whether they will be finishing will come us because, you know, i'm us comes from the people. the thing is, i'm a brokerage, i try to, to where i live in the same guys. so you just mentioned the sort of saving basis and to be fair, i want to bring it into our conversation, the arab and muslim countries who for whom i think the power steering issue has also become a bit of a token. i mean, they all express their rhetorical, a sofa direct tv, the palestinians, but they don't influence the balance on the ground or the fair resolution of this, of this crisis. what kind of a reaction or perhaps a retribution and may we expect from the arab and muslim world if indeed the is really a movement into guys the proceeds. well, i won't be able to buy the standard size bed hoping to much about the pollution of the list of guns. but in the suspect, we have to do a door and notified everybody. that's what happens. it's called the slope acceptable. they. it took it to a live, just let them, it's not only political, you know, and this sentiment is very much touching, but the most names. one bye bye bye. i fucking goes up. i'd be the most space is, will be able to both of the streets over there. most of them worked out other customers because not one government can stop them from the re. so whether this will affect the decision of data elements or business governments. if there's something else, but definitely there should be some different addresses. and there such governments that we would love to stay without taking any action. i mean, the political, diplomatic, and the deceptive because ultimately uses for the front of the it has been used in there and that the service is the most again. yes, these are sending them out by the people themselves. so something is going to happen. they upset and say, i didn't see of the quotes for him, but now in o is rarely our horse until now. israel prevailed due to his larger army and far better equipped army. and it's, we're at this point, as you said, the, they're very few. if any muslim countries that want to get involved by putting the troops on the ground, but on the other hand, if they don't do anything, they also face um a considerable threat, for example of the influx of palestinian refugees into egypt into lab and on into jordan that is quite an existential issue with threats and or undermine the security of those countries in a very significant way. do you think they should been dealing with this gordon? not i'm the one have not wanting to get into both militarily, but also feeling the pressure to do something to prevent the, you know, thousands, if not millions of palestinian refugees from streaming into that countries. 2 days ago there was a dimension of the summit. them then entitled, and this issue was addressed general issue is the 1st company which has been active progressive through the buses and they refused to open dispatchers because they don't want any influx of i've seen is info the, the injection that the stipends in me is we are finishing more, but these are the cnn mental issue, which has been going on for the 75 years. so we are dividing the boasting and lives and demands whether you buy for quite a use for the estate in dependents. they know i'd love to have you. ready know they can do so many things a they, they can use as i said, it's not the extras they can we go anywhere they can pull on them both of those. uh, especially with discount. those that'll be sent this way, which they have exchanged, their monthly conditions, they can do both of them and it goes into international really big on the exact sort impressive. if not, the only thing we also do because they have the means is dental how to use it. i'm sometimes wondering whether israel may be playing on these danger all by a total takeover of gaza to essentially pool um it's air of neighbors into solving this issue because as you said, it would be playing into israel's hands if all the guys a residence on a significant portion of them leads to the neighboring countries. here's the real can know when and take the territory on the, you know, judging from the past history, the really gives up the territories that if the it seems militarily so don't you think that perhaps oldest hysteria about the pending invasion of gaza is a, a little bit artificial on manipulative in order to essentially encourage arab and muslim countries to solve that issue or control them in judging on the bottom of the so if any of the time in office as a prime minister, he was all the time refusing to add meant to recognize an independent the state for about a senior. so just to try us, if you eyes on vivian is a, we'd be going to with this. i've been your because they are very much serviced in that. and then in this case, they will not the bulk, but if they will die, they withdrawal from the phone go. so i don't think it's designed for them to come again. so i, i love you, bye. i guys the way they, they, they wanted the 1000000 population more and took the hit from the side st units a for medical education. so and so also at this time, the area there are, again, i think, and i'm trying to save the image of the idea i'm, the government will be as i am because they have for the phase, some guys, i cannot say i got the sort of you know, but we went over to about the industry general saying that they have the best. i mean, this vision, this best buy would be on and all the incentives and services that they have phase in dfcs or to anticipate what was going on. so now the government but if somebody isn't using a quote another he guy the gun if the damage on himself alone others and the. ready yeah, i think we essentially agreed here that they are corner is by their own arrogance and believing that they can control the situation only by force when in fact, we're talking about millions and millions of people who have been put in under very uh, disney 5 conditions for, for decades and that problem, no one can, we definitely have the social issues. i mean, issues like this. if we move up to all over the history of the day, this would be the magic solution, political sort of issue. people have to sit together on the table and discuss things aggressive. anybody a realistic way? the only way is the way is to have to separate the 2 independent states. we have you and the resolutions, which i bought the accepted by the national community. we have the positive, which is, well, sorry about that stands for to be in union, any recognition that existing they would, they survive, forget the believe limit but each and implement it. but i think that's what i want to know. if both sides will accept that discount then, but that then do today, we should have a positive. so this mr. say we, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will go back to this discussion in a few seconds. please stay tuned. the, the, the welcome back to wells appointments. as a former member of the lebanese parliament and adviser to reform eliminates president michelle, our own research a before the break. we started talking about the historical lessons and i know that through all of your lifetime, you've been a very active member of the narrow, a nice community off level. now i'm, it's a christian asner religious group that has been able to preserve its collective identity throughout the centuries without having uh, its own state. and i think who is example is very relevant for, for the current is really posting in the context because the ultimately, they are also finding overland over statewood over uh, collected identity. and a question i want to ask you is, what do you think has allowed the, the mera nods to develop as a people all the way from the 4th century without having these protective a unifying structure. overstate. first of all because said mother and i say, you know, they are christians as you just that very much the believers and, and it was sent at the end of that time, any of the old age and all that. it was actually just the district. ready among many uh, manufacturing and many it in bios, you know about. so i'll be, it's we, we have many things over on a, uh, let's say in this, on the, the audio. because even though we, we, we live and live at home and we got them up on the live on and live at home. and by this time you can see area enjoy them. and some of that also area. so got screwed up all over this company is we have, we've been donation with all the other communities o, b o together live in bees. and really and then we'd be swear with the to really every community, every ethnic group as advocates on vice of believe it's or less of the nation if, if i think advice as well. oh the each, the defense mandate that we work with the other side. now living in this that i'm interested in that, in the being off today. we went our most of them. uh, also, but that was here before i go through a company which is school development. when everybody estimate google of its own lights produce a basically, you know, really just the educationally and make it. so it's a practice the decisions throughout the years. under the statement and speaking both nationalized identities, i think it's more or less clear what the israel stands for. but what about the palestinians? do you think they carry any, am this think national identity apart from the resistance to israel's domination and is resistance alone to sustain a collective or national identity? think they have the identity, which is clear. it may be biased to any of the identity of up to or if i may say, because or, or what's happened is that, oh, this is the 75 years or more. you know, the identity is very important, doesn't work for them because most of them are most drums to be a baby last the, the way and majority in this, in this audience, as we say. so yes, they have their own identity, whether it's collective a month, it is part of the if i may have to admit myself to say of this in the word which a doubt because of the as part of them and the they have just losing. and i like so much more with that. so just that connected and they help us. and then you mentioned your belief is that they still to stay solution is the only viable scenario. and so to some extent, the paying lip service to the 2 states solution has allowed israel to maintain this a very unjust a status quote for many, many decades. and i'm sure you're, you've heard that some people are suggesting to keeps things as they are. that is, uh, sort of quasi one state, but uh, press for equal rights for all, perhaps a dog, the lebanese model that you just mentioned, where, you know, christians and she and sunni muslims can least side by side as well as some other groups like choose for example why, why do you think the 2 state solution is still a better option given again uh the, the current reality is on how large of the situation of the ground has changed over the past 75 years or so. yeah, this is because this is where you just stay as long as it's paid for choose. it is very simple because they said, i'm not saying it. so even if you have before, did not get for the ups moving the, i wonder if they have. busy bites as the other is a is leaving the investment all you know is that a certain distance. ready ok, the solution of one state whereby but his pinions, jews are living together and under the same uh, flag as we say, we really with the head shedding the same uh identity. but still i don't think it's a viable. so have you seen before or what happened in our case in the as level not be we didn't have this kind of process is between all sides. okay. we had the civil war. i'm, you know, 75 and the positive instigated by putting in 13 is because, because if i send you an issue, because the presence of the scene is going to be, is to be more model besides, they wanted to solve the. so it'd be the issue of the step of that special delivery is to be a pick up and a 40 by the speed you saw other than that? no, but i do think it is okay. we have our differences everywhere over the web b, and then we have dismissed it in december. so i'm going to bump this up there and it was awesome for loving blogs on slide. so it's been edited exhausted between level and these are, you know, well it may be different, but i think that the example of the is really intervention and loving them back in the mid 19 ages is also a relevant one because uh correct me, if i'm wrong, here, but i think the efforts to eradicate the pillow basis has actually led to the consolidation and empowerment of his ball. uh so uh, even if they succeed in uh, removing or significantly undermining. how much do you think they can fully deal with this bigger problem of an armed resistance to that policies? because they, they seem to be chasing. not the actual good all but this whole idea that the opposition to the way they're ok supplying the holy land. it seems to be much broader than or much deeper than just one insurgent grow. what do you think your is? what you're saying is, i believe, even the way when you, when you all know about the, is the cation of the vehicle from the bottom. but this it'd be vision stock vehicle from existing as the body or as it relates to the uh no, i did not. even if they met each one to goes about this doesn't mean that they were also in a degree of i'm us. so it means that the, the use of force is not the proper answer to all one big questions are all the issues and differences of problems that we are facing. we have to know it to another. and there is one more question i want to ask you. um whenever we deal with a major international issue these days, they're always 2 ways of looking at it. one that allows for the presence of a historical context and one that's 6 to eliminated. and i think both these really some, the americans had clearly preferred the latter option. you know, they are, they're
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