Transcripts For CNNW Crossfire 20140515 : vimarsana.com

Defense, and Jesse Dane Duff of concerned veterans for america. How to we take better care of our veterans . Does it start by firing the man at the top . Tonight on crossfire. Welcome to crossfire. Im s. E. Cupp on the right. Im van jones on the left. Tonight we have two advocates for americas veterans. Veterans affair secretary Eric Shinseki was on capitol hill today fighting to keep his job. Cnn Senior Investigative correspondent drew griffin actually broke the story in the first place. His reporting is the reason the senate had the hearing today. Hes here to give us a closer look of how we got here. Van, and s. E. , this is an eruption and a scandal basically because of our reporting out of a Phoenix Va Medical Center last month in which sources told us of a secret waiting list where veterans were simply left waiting for care on a secret list trying to hide the fact of just how long they had been waiting. Some up to 21 months. Our same sources tell us at that va facility, 40 veterans, maybe even more, may have died because of delayed care. But keep in mind, this is only one part of this what were calling now a va scandal. Weve been reporting since last november on wait lists at va facilities across the country that have led by the vas own admission to 23 deaths. Some 80, what theyre calling adverse medical outcomes. So these wait list problems have been building and as we have continued to report, the va, the office of Inspector General, they have all known about all of this. Not just since our reporting, but years and years before when wait list have been brought up and nothing seem to have been done. Thanks. Thats terrible. Look, nobody is going to defend this horror show that cnn has uncovered. Heres the real question, though. How do we fix this, okay . Thats the real question if you care about the veterans. You dont start by firing Eric Shinseki before we know whats going on. A fair investigation might prove shinseki is the good guy trying to raise the standards and bureaucratics beneath him are sabotaging his reform. Dont fire the guy before the investigation. Number two, can we please shut down the kabuki theater here . We have real people if pain. Lets not forget, though, reckless republicans started the most recent round of wars and then republicans have been blocking the increase for the health care that might have helped some of these Wounded Warriors. Now, now the same republicans are the ones who are screaming the loudest about a system they helped to overload with their wars and are now underfunding. So can we please stop the hypocrisy olympics, s. E. , and get to the bottom of the situation first . Were going to get to the bottom of it. Im not surprised youre blaming all this on republicans. Just saying there has to be some responsibility on both sides. Well get to it. The man at the top would be our first place to start. We have two veterans in the crossfire. Larry corb, assistant defense secretary during the reagan administration. Jessie dane duff. Larry, after cnn broke the story about these deaths which led to the hearings on capitol hill today, secretary shinseki had this to say in the hearing. Take a listen. This is a robust system. A good portion of it works. What were focusing on is scheduling. Now, for me, shinseki is not the biggest problem. Hes part of the problem. In what bizarreo world does a person who talks up the death of 40 veterans to a scheduling problem get to keep his job . Wait a second. Thats not true. The Inspector General who also testified today said ive looked into that. Theres no evidence that the wait times caused those deaths and youve got to remember, since general shinseki took over, himself a Wounded Warrior right. Okay. Basically the number of people, you know, claims being processed has gone down. The number the wait times has gone down. Look, what happened is we assume, and it was republicans running the country then, that these wars would be short and theyd be over. When general shinseki said, no, it wouldnt, he was ridiculed by Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld and so we didnt prepare for this. And if you go back and you take a look at where we were in 2008 and where we are now, were not where we need to be. But were much better off than we are. Im appalled at all of this because all of you have missing one point. The backlog that started a lot of this mess was not the current wars. It was Vietnam Veterans allowed in in 2009 because they were never recognized for agent orange illness. Never recognized by the v. A. For agent orange illness. Thats where the backlog started and where the treatment came in. Its not your afghan and iraq wars. Lets not talk about that. Thats not even part of the topic. Lets not mix messages here. This isnt a republican issue. This is not a democrat issue. This is a veterans issue. Thats a slap in the face to all veterans when you indicate im going to shock you. We agree on something. Agent orange should have been a part of this thing from the whole beginning and it was Eric Shinseki that brought it absolutely. Arent you proud of him for that . Which one is it going to be . You want to blame republicans. Now youre admitting it was agent orange. No, no, no, they did not no doubt it was the Vietnam Veterans of which im one, but it was also the fact they didnt prepare for the Mental Illness that has begun to overwhelm the system. Five years into this let me take jessies point and lets agree, move forward and talk about solutions. This is like arguing over why you got pregnant. You have a baby, we have to take care of it. We have vets. Whether they exist because of republicans or democrats should not matter. Weve got them. How are we going to take care of them . Lets focus on the solutions. Okay. 55 veterans died a day by the vas own records waiting for benefits in 2011 by their own records. Thats close to 20,000 veterans who couldnt even get awarded their benefits on time. Average wait time was 345 days. You can get food stamps in 30 days. Some veterans are waiting over 600 days. Im tired of hearing they werent prepared. Were five years into this. When he was sworn into office in 2009, in his own testimony he stated i will get rid of the backlog. At that point, there were 11,000 veterans in the balk log fcklog year. Escalated by 2,000 under his watch to 245,000 veterans in 4 years. Nope, nope, nope. First of all, first of all, thats not right. Your data is all wrong. Ill show it you. Youre making it up. Look at the data here. Look at the data as its coming down. I think youre unfair to Eric Shinseki. He changed the definition of backlog from 180 days to 120 days. What youre talking about is somebody whos a reformer whos leaning forward trying to solve the problem. Im sorry, i cant be sympathetic when were talking about veterans who arent getting fair ratings. I deal with veterans every day. Now theyre trying to shove these ratings through and many of them arent getting accurate ratings. The appeals are climbing. We have over a quarter million veterans in the appeals. Average wait time, 1,200 days. Why isnt disabled veterans of america saying he should stay in and commending him . Theyre the most affected. American legion is asking for it. American legion is not the disabled veterans. Im a member of disabled americans veterans. Doesnt mean we all agree. Im a member of American Legion and i dont agree, either. Van one at a time, guys. Van and larry, to your point, lets take wrr word that eric sh had great recommendations and was a leader. Doesnt this make the point the bureaucrats underneath him were unable to implement this because its too big and unwieldy . Does it matter when he wanted to do . He didnt get to do it. It matters if people cook the books. They should be held accountable. Thats why you have an Inspector General investigation. What were trying to do. Again, the Inspector General testified today after general shinseki. My thing is, look, this is horrible. Nobody everybody is shocked. Its a bipartisan outrage across the country. But the reality is, dont you think people are jumping the gun . No, because we are talking about this over five years. Let me finish my question. Dont you think people are jumping gun to say he should be fired before theres been an investigation . Under george w. Bush you had a horrible situation with walter reed. Lets get back to this. They did fire executives at walter reed. No, they didnt fire the secretary of defense. They didnt fire bob gates. Secretary of defense had the authority to fire people. Right now secretary shinseki does not. Thats the first thing. Get the va management accountability act in there. Thats the first thing. The second thing, when he was asked today by the senator if he would get rid of management, he said, i dont want to jump the gun on that. I want to talk to nigh i. G. Wait a minute, everybody is talking about phoenix. Ive been studying this over a year. You have five dead veterans at dorn medical facility who could not get in on time for colon ospies. You have bonuses given to executives when they have gotten mismanagement problems. You have one in dayton, ohio, who had an unsanitary dental facility and got an 11,000 bonus. Youre rewarding executives. Meanwhile, they have junk going on on their watch. Its not just phoenix. Its all over the nation. Theres been a lack of accountability for quite a while under shinseki, a number of deaths not just in phoenix under his watch. People are frustrated hes not been held accountable. Look, i dont just want secretary shinseki to get a pink slip. Next, ill explain why i want to see someone behind bars. 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Once again the Obama Administration is circling the wagons to protect its own. President obama says he still has faith in Veterans Affairs secretary Eric Shinseki. Just like he stood by Kathleen Sebelius during the glitches and Hillary Clinton after benghazi. Just this week attorney general eric holder said the Justice Department has no plans to investigate the mess at the va. Hes content to sit back and let the va investigate the va. Well, at least one democrat is smart enough to realize thats a bad idea. Heres senator Richard Blumenthal at todays hearing. Isnt there evidence here of criminal wrongdoing, that its falsifying records, false statements to the federal government . Thats a crime under the should be, yes. And wouldnt it be appropriate to ask for assistance from the federal bureau of investigation or some other similar agency . Youd think so. Yeah. In the crossfire tonight, larry korb, jessie jane duff. They have not been shy in their investigations. They investigated media leaks, investigated sheriff joe arpaio, investigated ebook price fixing. They have no plans to investigate the deaths of 40 veterans. Why does it seem like instead of Holding People accountable, the administration wants to protect the people currently in place . Well, first of all, as i mentioned before, the Inspector General who, by the way, is independent of the secretary, he or she is confirmed by the congress, reports to the congress, said theres no evidence that any of the deaths are related to the waiting list. Thats him. Okay . What hes investigating. Larry, even Eric Shinseki today said that the i. G. Is overloaded and has too much work on its plate. Why are we waiting even further to figure out what this report we know what happened. No, we dont know what happened. We know whistleblowers. Do you believe Edward Snowden . Okay. Im asking you. Youve got whistleblowers here coming out. Now the i. G. Is not big enough, you can get more people in the i. G. Right. Thats what you need to do. Then if they find criminal things, then they turn it over to the Justice Department. Do you think criminal charges are going to happen . I dont know. Okay . I mean, you know, we always jump to conclusions and then we find out, hey, we overreacted. Now, to you, you would have to agree this is not a democrat problem, that the va has been a bipartisan mess for a while. W wouldnt you agree . Its never been run well. Its the second largest bureaucracy next to d. O. D. Its a bipartisan problem. The republicans had an opportunity to help fix it. I want to show you a comment, you mentioned the American Legion. Says, i dont know how anyone who voted no today can look a veteran in the eye and justify the vote. Hes talking about the vote in february where republicans stood together in the senate and blocked more help for the va. Arent you concerned about republicans not doing right by veterans . Thats a misleading argument. More help for the va was going to allow more veterans into system who didnt have servicerelated disability. You cant have a system who have everybody who checked a box and was a desk jockey get into the va. They cant handle what theyve got. Thats a misleading argument. I believe the va is being mismanaged and increased in that in the last five years significantly. I want to just pin you down on something. What you just said i thought was shockingly disappointing. There was a bill that was a real opportunity and a real shot to protect people who serve this country. Bernie sanders bill . Youre talking about Bernie Sanders bill . Youre saying the only people wow think who serve this country who need help and support are ones who had a weapon . Thats not what i said. Im asking you you called them desk jockeys. Is that Bernie Sanders bill youre talking about . Yes. Bernie sanders bill wanted to allow everybody who served to go into the va medical system. You cant do that. The va is set up for servicerelated disability. Its servicerelated disability. You got it wrong. The v. A. Allows you if you have served and you have financial problems where you cant get it, they let people in like that. And you mentioned earlier about the agent orange thing coming back. We dont know now people who, you know, had no disability. When i got out, they didnt know about agent orange when we left. They never talked about it. A couple of years ago, i came down with colon cancer, and the doctor said it was probably agent orange. Absolutely. I didnt go to the v. A. , because thank god i work at a place that has health insurance. But you dont know. And thats what Bernie Sanders bill was trying to say. 22 million veterans in this country, and they cant even serve the 6 million we have now. Youre going to saturate a system. It would collapse it. Thats what im saying. Let me address it. Some are arguing and continued to argue this is republicans blocking votes and the lack of funding on the part of republicans. A panel of experts today resoundingly rejected the idea that is an issue of funding. The v. A. Has increased its funding, doubled it in fact between 2001 and 2013. We doubled the force. It has 300,000 employees. This isnt an issue of funding and staffing. Isnt this an issue, as we said, of unwieldy bureaucracy that cannot be managed . Well, there is no doubt about the fact that its a giant bureaucracy and weve had trouble managing it. But i would argue its getting much better. Since Rick Shinseki has been in there, the number of people receiving care is up 20 , okay. His budget isnt up 20 . You were going back to a 2001. It has increased. Things are getting better. The number of claimants has gone down from 800,000 to 500,000. Okay. So when you say things is it perfect . Heck no. And i think we need to when we go to war, regardless of whom to count that as a cost. Because you owe it to those men and women for all of the time. Stay here. Were going to get you guys at home in on this argument. And please weigh in on our fireback question. Do you think at home shore, secretary shinseki resign from the department of veteran affairs over this . Tweet yes or no using crossfire. Ill give you the results after the break. Were also going to have our outrages of the day. I am personally outraged about something that happened today at lunch. Tell you about it when we get back. Female narrator the mattress price wars are on the mattress price wars are on at sleep train. We challenged the manufacturers to offer even lower prices. Now its posturepedic versus beautyrest with big savings of up to 400 off. Serta icomfort and tempurpedic go headtohead with three years interestfree financing. Plus, free sameday delivery, setup, and removal of your old set. When brands compete, you save. Mattress price wars are on now at sleep train. Your ticket to a better nights sleep trwith secure wifie for your business. It also comes with public wifi for your customers. Not so with internet from the phone company. I would email the phone company to inquire as to why they have shortchanged these customers. But that would require wifi. Switch to comcast Business Internet and get two Wifi Networks included. Comcast business built for business. Welcome back. Now its time for the outrages of the day. You know, what did you eat for lunch today . As for me, i grabbed a chicken sandwich. Now, dont blame me. One out of every four americans eats some fast foods, which means our waistlines are getting bigger. But the paychecks for the people who prepare that food are still way too small. Fast food workers earn on average just 11,000 a year. They work all year. They get 11,000. Here is the outrage. The ceos, their bosses make double that, double in just one day. Thats why today thousands of fast food workers in 33 countries have staged an actual strike. And thats why the minimum wage should be a living wage. Its something for you at home to chew on. Okay. Well, how is this for you. A teacher in hancock county, ohio, was suspended only ten days for lifting a kindergartner up by the face and pinning him to the wall. Here is the shocking video. Barb williams, a teacher at the riverdale schools essentially got an early start to her Summer Vacation as there are only ten days left of school for manhandling a child who is supposed to be under her care. Now, to put this in context, a tenth grader was recently suspended in maine for the same length of time for having a yellow squirt gun in school. Now, as a child, i was hit by a teacher in front of the entire grade. It was humiliating and terrifying. There is no place for educators who lay hands on our children in our schools. Hancock county parents should demand she be fired immediately and sent on a permanent Summer Vacation. Hear hear on that. Lets check our fireback results. We asked you at home should. Secretary shinseki resign from the department of veteran affairs. Right now 43 of you say yes, and 57 say no. So, listen, after todays testimony based on this, do you think he is going to be able to survive this whole thing . I think he is going to survive, because under this administration, they all survive. They do. Thats just terrible. Well, no one is held accountable. Its true. No one goes. What do you think . I think hell survive because basically he has done a good job with the mess he was handed, not just from the bush administration, but from other long period of time. And have basically, he himself is a disabled american veteran. Dont you think he is actually being undermined by people under him . Even on agent orange, he did what you want him to do and now youre against him. I applaud him for bringing in agent orange. I dont applaud him for being ill prepared to manage it. We have had scandal after scandal. People are talking about phoenix, this goes back years. And i have highlighted many of these scandals, and they should vietnam be investigated a long time ago. Where there is smoke, there is fire and if they started investigating, they would have found this. How many dead veterans before someone is held accountable . I want to appreciate both of you for your service. The debate is going to continue online at cnn. Com crossfire as well as facebook and twitter. From the left, im van jones. From the right im s. E. Cupp. Join us next time for another edition of crossfire. Erin Burnett Outfront starts right now. Next, breaking news. Wildfires raging out of control in southern california. Thousands of homes, more than 100,000 people in flames way. Were live from the scene of the biggest fire. Plus, breaking news on malaysia airlines. Exclusive new information about the satellite data at the center of the search. Only outfront. And the man who says he is the zodiac killers son is my guest tonight. Lets go outfront. This is cnn breaking news