Transcripts For CSPAN2 Andrew 20240704 : vimarsana.com

Welcome to our program in the Historical Society and we are so glad you joined us today. The theme of this years festival is the importance of place in georgia and we are going to focus on the experience of the cherokee people, the way georgians remembered their experience coming all the way up. Thank you for being here. Professor ofol history on native american and American History and author published by the North Carolina press. As i mentioned, the theme of the festival for 2021, the changing landscape. Geography, history and community where the land Shape Community and people over time so lets Start Talking about cherokee. Not too far from where i am today and where i work here, close to the cherokee homeland but it includes parts of georgia now and theres a geographical shift, cherokee lost land and it is now part of North Carolina, there was aou shift of things moving but its now significant when the Cherokee National is placed near calhoun so it includes cherokee territory and probably the most famous way in Georgia History the government of georgia is the most to create a crisis for the charities that eventually results in the state of oklahoma so early Georgia History is almost like a antagonist, they vigorously pursue Cherokee Nations so presence is very important and removal is central pursuing the removal as a central goal. Because we are talking about plays, how long had the cherokee people been living in western North Carolina, did this, sentries . Absolutely. This is the homeland, only homeland, continuing homeland so the center tends to be more western part of North Carolina but in terms of what is identified as the homeland in south carolina, this is where creation happens so this is the center of things. North georgia in western northd carolina, money is so it remains in those areas if you are working the appalachian trail where the cherokee would have been. Church settlements like nonnative early history in the western trail looking at places forak millennia, the campus has histories that go back thousands of years but before the term so all americaner places are all a semblanceho of ancient homeland. Describe if you will the life they live for contact with european powers. They were the early part, cherokee people would have been the in agricultural villages, popular images American Culture edited nomadic for not included in the landscape but pretty much everybody, corn farmers is a variety of wild cultivated plants, or agricultural towns and some have mounds that support karens houses and you have houses made of wood and fields stretching long river bottoms so building sedentary people may have a wide range of other resources and they are rooted inn these valleys so this is to find by River Valleys and town organizations, agricultural town centers. What role did the cherokee play in the American Revolution as it moves westward . Middle of the 18th century, it would be part of the middle 19th century western american settlements but they did have in the American Revolution. Like most of the large areas in the eastern part of north america, to participate on the side of the british not doing it out of any particular book although charities have been allies in south carolina, virginia but those who do participate do so because they try to push back against nonnative settlement and is used as opportunity to push back. This works out as before turkey communities in response to attacksn on settlements in 1776 and it is focused on North Carolina and militia forces proceed to destroy everything they can kind and there isnt much in the way, this is parts of the cherokee population sodas does really horrible experience in the language you see, it is a need to eliminate the threat so it is a traumatic experience and close on and there are cherokees and other native people in a war well into the 1790s sources long period of warfare that takes a toll on turkey communities and its issues not because of what we think about but we hope to use it as a way of protecting their ownth freedm and amend their file against the people who associate with this freedomny. Any idea how many people in the western part of North Carolina, do historians have any just of the size of population . Of the term, 20000 people in the cherokee territory managers restored at a low turn. The cherokee are during the revolution struggle againstst americans and they moved west so describe what happened, by the time of removal, the cherokee were a different kind of people and what we traditionally think of as to what they look like and what they were doing. The most famous is this idea of the tribe and they find themselves in the United States begin to make adjustments to find future in which they can coexist, it is vigorously expensive putting more pressure on them and it encourages changes. Cherokee has a reputation for being receptive to those changes in some ways its a romantic image so cherokees tend to lay up the idea that they have adopted elements of American Culture and economic response that it is clearly an attempt to nullify United States and make the case that United States can leave the Cherokee Nation alone so in the public rhetoric know weve adopted your culture and left behind the hunt. That had always been farmers, he gets his image. Its a more selective adaptation. Cherokees could adapt elements without pursuing what they think is happening which tends to be other natives that are selective. The cherokee officials welcome non indian missionaries to come in and set up the schools in an effort to abandon ways to make sure when his adaptation generally with the hope that by adjusting to the United States and trying to convince the United States that people are going along with this policy agenda this will help onto their land and political autonomy and remainin here. Politically you see them forming a central structure of cherokee people decentralized and different areas and towns tend to follow their own and get their own affairs. The way to prevent further loss of land and removal you see the government and taking it as capital but creatingha governmet attempting to create a political voice and it is an adjustment and while it is being created at the same time you still have traditional political practices taking place in more traditional communities. It is an adjustment of protecting autonomy. Was cherokee participating in slavery . Century youe 19th see some adopting a model of slavery, native americans to work, it has deeper history but you do see slaves in the nation. Is there any negotiation during this time leading up to the period that we now think of as removal . Are they becoming american citizens, was there ever a possibility . In a sense, yes. Theres kind of this expectation that sooner or later native americans are going to blend into the American Population. That is an aspect are, they are going to go away in one way or another either through disbursement some form of assimilation so the early policies encourage economic change, have this assumption sooner or later you will see the population dwindling and eventually whoevers left will become part of the United States but its not like there is publicso assumptions, you have this dual image of deeply seated racism assumption of assimilation so this idea of native americans becoming equal citizens at best but as a policy doocy this expectation that might have been so it is a strange situation held out as a possibility as a practical thing, not a promise. The idea of a become white is not really ever on the table. It was say sooner or later it is to become part of the republic but deeply fears it doesnt offer an answer quality so a side issue a question is some of the early treaties, there is this experiment, heads of household, individual cherokees can receive individual land, they can choose family land and it is a promise that it will become state citizens so that the is this experiment but United States premises, they find themselves living they dont accept that so here in North Carolina there are individual landholdings including part of our campus but also North Carolina and land speculators including people who are spectators and set up to strip the lands of cherokees so it captures this sense that it can be promised equal citizen should. In practical terms its clear that they are not going to be accepted and there are a lot of reasons in the quality is not something that will be offered. Sodas after emancipation in the jim crow education no matter how much industrial training or how much they are able to become, they are not accepted in are not going toou be so despite having livedmi here for millenn, it plays central to their identity. Georgians of United States president and federal government decided they needed to benm removed in the 1830s. An idea goes back further so Thomas Jefferson talks about the ability of forcing or convincing native americans to migrate to purchase louisiana territory is like a byproduct so the idea is pretty old by the 30s. It becomes a central goal of americans and most tag to Andrew Jackson selection and they make an official policy and make it their primary goal so an old idea that becomes his focus so increases mechanism and as far as georgia is concerned, its georges founders established which when you look at the map, most of the lamb in georgia claims the territory and cherokee territory, it creates this drive to possess close lands. Encouraged by economic changes and marker revolution and early 19th century. There is incredible pressure from other states and as they would see it, completing territory promised and up with them on a collision course because these lands are guaranteed you have a political demand and should be taken away but then you have a promise that this land is cherokee land and an obligation to help them defend those lands so you end up with the congress willing to ignore those promises and allow georgia to create this for native people and hope they will agree so it is triangular politics in the Cherokee Nations and United States and state governments push the artist the power that was something and accomplish the deportation. After this. We are talking about, americans are looped and i know there is a strong command and we see an important thing with interesting thing is georgia also began to embrace o the idea and telling e story of what happened. Its always portrayed as something to do with injustice and inequality and something just unfair about this. Georgians from the early part of the 20th century put a narrative about this t change. What is out about native American History that white georgians claimed it as their own and tell a story in a way that stop in the case when it comes to slavery or jim crow . What happens is that these communities commemorate native history as a way of rooting themselves so commemorating what theyre doing is rooting themselves, placing themselves firmly in this landscape in a former indigenous homeland so i find that they are this use of native american historical images and it is a way of reckoning, turning those places into homes or seven communities and it doesnt start controversy because there is this assumption that native americans are gone. Theyre not gone. A lot of the culture has this assumption that they are gone as far as race is concerned and it is more complex. Because you have this assumption, it is permissible for communities to commemorate or apologize for Something Like removal and in doing so, these are rituals that help communities become more at home. Some surprising things, commemoration in controversy even during times when states like georgia were battling and massive resistance, perfectly willing to commemorate removal and frame that as an apology for the crimes of previous georgiaf government. Some of the people who support or at the forefront school margaret griffin, that is permissible i think because there is this assumption they are given this politics, it has ended with removal so it is in a way that in Georgia History they are not so some of the same institutions and individuals that exclude africanamericans from the public sphere and willing to embrace stories that we seem to place previous generations in this line. Twopart followup to that, is it possible to argue that during the 60s is safer to see a native American Population has never been here going on with the civil rights movement, the wavy view it, are they seeing them more white than nonwhite . Thats a good question. In terms of georgia commemorations, theres probably a little bit of that clear up the civilized tribe image, that is tied to resistance, it is very complementary so there is an element of that clearly what is going on when they commemorate, they identify not presenting themselves as those who benefit from the. They are saying its a shame that happened in the 19th century and the commemoration has recognition of the that it is clear they identify as people who love these places in a way that White Communities love those places so there is this present business, the transformation into georgia heritage. There is clearly an attempt to identify with the group of people have worked hard on. You just mentioned when reason they embrace this narrative is because they are no longer here, they see it as gone. Does the question of this ever enter . What we hear about is the United States now as a former slave and they havent been and talk about reformation, cherokee people lost their land, is there any conversation and does that change the way they want to commemorate or think about this subject they tend to romanticize . In the commemoration, there is a discussion there is in this formal discussion. The commemoration itself comes deliberation which is important because it recognizes historical misdeeds but doesnt require that. The other part is in an important sense, its already american law addressing disregard of things like trees, native americans can pursue what you might call reparation compensation recompense. Recompense for violations of the treaty so this relationship, there is a structure in place for something in a different conversation and the other thing i would say is reparation for the responsibility and the present would logically take the form of nonnative communities supporting sovereignty so you see recent commemoration sponsored by native nation of a removal and should be accompanied and they continue to exist as part of the Political Landscape but also put an emphasis on native american sovereignty so thats not always easy to get into but that is one of the forms talking about the present ties. A lot of ground to cover in the short time we have left but a couple things here, you tend to think of when georgians have commemorated removal of the cherokee, they intend to talk about it as a tragedy, something set apart because it is unequal and you said contemporary commemoration defines any removal as a tragic error and principles of freedom and equality and that is certainly simple. It minimizes the significance of dispossessionn and not just in georgia but everywhere, they never would have been the United States. This wasnt a mistake, it was foundational to the creation of the United States. Its really both of those things, a violation of justice so americans tend to think the United States is founded on the principle and that is true of course but its also homeland made out of other peoples, a territory made out of other peoples territories you can only forget the second part if you define the continent as empty or open land available to show up. It is a violation of principles on the country but the Political Landscapee, the territory would have to look very different these things didnt take place. One thing we often hear about today not necessarily about commemoration but one way nation American Culture has brought culture, if you want to call it that, symbolism into mainstream to the use of symbolism, we see it in universities in terms of professionalal athletes and the clevelandd guardians right here into a bright spotlight winning the world series. If you could talk briefly how it started, what itan means for americans and one question we got into this discussion, should we ask the cherokee what they think about that and doesnt matter . A big question in a short amount of time. The answer is yes but usc it more than anyplace else. Whether you are in favor or opposed, acknowledge that the images out of old patterns of racial genotyping and goes back and they are tied to colonialism. In terms of what was with them in the 1960s and the are suggesting that its like the early 20th century and these romantic images circulating through the assumptions what we talked about and availability, itur is rooted in a culture that emerges out of this deportation and assimilation so whether you are okay, you have to start by acknowledging they come from colonialism and one of the activities from the adoption of those m mascots reflect patterns of nonnative americans putting pain in the music used for the comes out from the early 20th century and they have these long traditions of stereotyping. You can argue that it doesnt matter or shouldnt matter. I can argue back and forth, it is indisputable where the images come from, these racial stereotypes circulating especially in the early 20th century. I think its always an issue. Its always an issue for me as an academic at universities and academics structures are not isolated from the political language history of the credit more than any other institution, baseball teams or whatever else are. So in a real way my position is a reflection, the term like privilege is becoming a a bit oa cliche but it is a question of privilege. As aes sort of middleclass meat i had opportunity that had been denied to native americans and some liability to become someone who supposedly is like you and export industries this history, that reflects colonialism as much as the Atlanta Braves mascot does your it is an issue i remember when i first arrived in western North Carolina being asked to teach turkey history classes. I thought Academic Knowledge to do that, but i find myself in a Charity Place, ancient Charity Place, place where some of my students, their ancestors had lived for thousands of years, and yeah, i mean, a classroom in which it supposedly me, this newcomer, this white dude from chicago originally, im the one who supposedly is the expert peer one of the things teaching in thiss place has taught me is that cherokee people dont need me to tell them their history, what their history is here it would be utterly arrogant for me to do that. That has affected how i teach, affected how i do my scholarship. Ik in terms of like my own writing and research. Charity history i suppose but its a history of how native american images and native american memories, i guess you would say, have circulated within the broader American Culture, and thats a deliberate choice on my part. What i can contribute i think is in some ways a critique of various representations of colonialism. I cannot and never claim to speak for Charity History in this kind of monolithic way as i say cherokee people dont need me to tell them what their history is here the knowledge is there. The other thing i would add is part of how our institution, western carolina, has responded partly to the colonial history of Higher Education has been as much as possible to orient our native american studies programming and ourur initiativs towards a series of Strategic Partnerships with the eastern band focused focus on te cherokee language, native american health. We really defineoi what were doing, as sort sort of t of, i mean ideally honoring a set of obligations between the university and enter since the state of North Carolina because we are a state school, set of obligations between the university which occupies this ancient Charity Place and then the eastern band as a sovereign native american nation. So yeah, thats always an issue and it should be an issue and shouldnt necessarily be comfortable, shouldnt be comfortable for me to act as if i simply speak for Charity History because adult. Real quick. What do you think based upon your study of the subject as a public and academic historian, what is a a proper way for us to commemorate and remember, theres as big question, this event and these people in georgia and American History . Im pretty sure i dont give an answer to the end of book. I think what the most interesting work going on today is rooted again in a set of partnerships between native nations never went away, and broader commemorative communities i guess you would say, whether those are white dominated National Institutions or state institutions. I think the most important thing is for in this day and age for native nations or native communities to be the authors or at least significant authors of this sort of work and not have it be simply something that southern communities undertake. Because in that setting no matter how good the heritage work is, it becomes about the needs of nonnative communities as opposed to native communities. The most important thingng is is a power dynamic i guess, just making sure that it is, native American Communities that are directing these sorts of commemorations, that there significant Collaboration Partnership at that the power dynamic within public history shifts towards native nations and away from, going away from other institutions. Andrew denson is a professor of history at western carolina university. Hes the author of numerous bookss and articles on native history, including this one, monuments to absence published by the university of North Carolina press in 2017, and winner of the georgia Historical Society no award for the best book Georgia History 2018. Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate you bringing a lot into a big, big subject. Thank you very much. It was good talking with you. If you want to know more about the Georgia History festival check out george history festival. Org, and george history. Com. For everything about georgia Historical Society. Thanks so much for joining us. Cspan skimping 2024 coverage is your front row seat to the president ial election. Watch our coverage of the candidates on the campaign trail with announcements, meeting grades, speeches and events to make up your own mind. Campaign 2024 on the cspan network, cspan now are free mobile video app, or anytime online at cspan. Org. Cspan, your front row view of politics. 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