michael blair family foundation for their generous support. let's get started. today we have two outstanding nonfiction writers, keen on servers of american society, who both have books chronicling recent major disruption in american life. historian garrett peck, author of eight books and a many time popular presenter at the festival, unions to us peek about his latest, decade of disruption, america in the new millennium. it's an eye-opening history of the turn bent first decades of the 21st century which was book-ended by two financial crises, thedot-com meltdown, the recession, banks deemed to big to fail and millions lost their hopings to foreclosure and witnessed the wipe out of their requirement savings. the followup from the great recession led to the hyperpolarized society of the years that followed, the political populism, on both the left and the right, arose which is sit set the table for the trump presidency which carlos lozada examine is in his book, what were were thinking a brief history after the trump era. he raid 150 volumes claiming to diagnoses whited trump was elected and what his presidency revealed but the face and he asked what do all the books and narratives tell us how we understand of uses at this point in history. he is the nonfiction book critic the "washington post" and this is the first time he's been with us since he won a pulitzer prize, we delighted to welcome him back. moderating the conversation today is bradley graham who many in our community know also the co-owner of our beloved book seller partner, politics and prose, maybe some know as the board of the american book sellingers association. what you may not know is that book selling is a second career for brad. before this he spent three decades as a reporter at the "washington post," covering mostly foreign and national security matters. as i turn it over to the panel, the only regret i have is that we're not doing this in person and we can get a chance to host all of you son site in the future. now big welcome to panelists. >> whenever i do these zoom talk is always like too find out first where people are actually zooming from because i don't want to take anything for a granted. i know you both normal live live locally but garrett, where are you calling from and carlos, where are you today? >> hello and thank you for your support of the book festival. i'm actually at the moment in santa fe, new mexico, in process of moving out here. so looking for housing right now chase crazy real estate market. >> and i'm in miami, florida, visiting my parents down here. a lovely kids in the pictures behind me are any niece and nephew, not my own. >> well, i envy both of you, i'm here in bethesda which is my home, through the magic of zoom we are all joined together. now, you both have written very ambitious books this time. one analyzes and distills a whole decade, the other analyzes and distills 150 books. how did each of you get the idea to undertake these projects? garrett, we can start with you. >> okay, cool. i -- my inspiration for my book started in 2007 when jonathan yardley of the "washington post" did this whole series of reviews when he look back on literature from the past and stuff that stood the test of time, and that year he rereviewed "only yesterday" an informal history of the 19309s and and 10920 and i read that and was blownary and i thought could i do something like that for the time we're living in. so the fall of 2007 i started taking notes right during the housing bubble bursting and then the the following fall, 2008 when he great recession nicked which was terrifying and i was taking notes throughout the process. and i'm doing the same thing but the pandemic. i have 110,000 words already written. just a journal, daily journal how we're living during this time. >> i look forward to that book, too. carlos? >> my favorite think about these festivals is i immediately pick up more ideas for books to read and i think i have to go back and read that one. i was honored to succeed jonathan yardley in this role after he retired, so i love that origin story of your book, garrett. mine began really accidently. i began reviewing books for the "washington post" right around the same time that donald trump announce its his candidacy for the presidency. and so first i decided, i'm going to read some books, some of trumps open books to see what they say about him, and then suddenly he's doing well in the polls and i you see books pull out the white working class and i thought i'd read those and see what they say about trump supporters and then he wins and there's resistance books and i thought i'd review those and see what they're saying and that's when it hit me this was my beat, what i would be doing, trying to understand the moment we're in through its kind of ongoing rapid fire literature. and ojust meant to do that as critic for the "washington post" after the mid-term elects in 2018 when it starts thinking about how can i try too put this together and maybe take a more systemic look at the books of this time. i thought i would just write for the "washington post" and i started drafting the piece and realized -- two things. first i had much more to say that could i say in a suze piece for the "washington post" ski had much more to read and men books i missed and books coming, so i decided to put it all together in a book project that. >> the other origin story that intrigues me where the title comes from. garrett, decayed -- decade of destruction. why disruption. >> actually not the original title of the book. the original title was the lost decade. and -- two different economic meltdowns that occurred some so many lost opportunities and in the introduction i described what else this decade could have been, ask described as or named, and really interesting. from the publisher they came back and -- the sales people were like people getting confused with this and the 1920s and that was creque tight, i would tell friend aisle write bought the lost decade and they said you're writing but the 1920s. i'm lining this is the last generation. this the first decade so the asked to change the title. and i lead let's go with the decade of disruption and that was very good timing because we're sifting in the grandmother -- the grandfather of all disruptions, the pandemic, which is has disrupted every single person's life on this earth. >> we just finished the presidential term by the great disruptor in a number of ways. carlos your title could take either a question mark or exclamation point depend along reader's frame of mind. >> which is why i wanted no punctuation with it. wanted to very open ended. had -- it's funny. i had-didn't ealy thought about the title of the book and i had all these half baked ideas for to its and discussions with the publisher and with my agent know one liked, everyone liked title that i didn't like or they didn't like mine and i was really at wit's end, and i just reached out too a few colleagues, people in publishing or in journalism, and on e-mail and said, okay, look, here's two paragraphs summing up my book. here's all the titles i have in mind. give me some suggestions. and i wasn't crazy and then the last weekend before we had to finalize something to get promotional materials out, i sent it to two funny writers at the "washington post," alex and dana. and i said, okay, you have to help me out. and dana, instantly, responded with, what were they thinking? and i thought that's it, that's perfect. just wanted it to be we. i didn't want to be accuser -- accusatory and i was adamant no punching situation because it wanted it to be what were thinking in this, as sir operated way and very straight, what we were thinking during this period through the prism of book bid insiders and activists and so i think -- i like it more of everyday and so i have dana to thank for that. >> this is your first book, right? and garrett, this is your eighth carlos, what was it like the first time through? >> i worry that this is going to make me far too sympathetic to authors and i'll never again be able to write a tough review of anyone's book because it was arduous. and it's not like that. and i was lucky because i had been thinking about these things for about five years, leading up to the moment when i decided to write it, and so i had all this kind of raw material of books i'd read and reviews i'd written, but i knew -- it's about 150 books, i'd say that maybe 90 were books i'd already read and 60 book its just read for this project, and it was a much more intense experience than i imagined. a great editor at simon & schuster who kennedy -- kept telling me to relax and the first chapters were the hardest until agot into a good rhythm. it was terrifying and there are many moments when i thought this is going nowhere and why did it even attempt this, but -- >> the only authors who -- >> no one has ever -- now i couple up and they say don't worry. it will be fine. it was wonderful writing experience. i grew a lot as a writer and working with different editors as well is always helpful and i think i was able to take the best from the editors at the post and my editors at the publisher, and come up with something that kind of felt like adill stillation of all of that. >> how to think it influenced your criticism now? >> i kind of think it has to. i don't know exactly how. i'm very bad at analyzing myself. i'll leave it to someone else to decide if it's changed the way i approach criticism. but i certainly have, i think, a lot more appreciation for even all the kind of little busy work that goes into producing a book and not just sitting down and thinking your big thoughts. but there's so many small decisions along the way things you take for granted as a read or reviewer but the organization of the book and what to include, what not to include. there's full chapters that could have been part of this book that weren't, issues i chose to grapple with versus others, and you realize how everything is a choice, everything in a book is a small or big choice. and so i think that appreciation will probably -- i hope make me -- give me a sharper eye for the decisions behind the structure and focus of the books i review. >> i've been a reporter for two two deck decades before i did my first book and one of the heardest things ahead gotten used to writing long pieces but doing a book is a whole nuther order of magnitude and was hard to remember what i had written earlier, to have -- because i was so accustomed to keeping everything in my mind when i -- i'd get to a new chapter towards the middle or later in the book and i remember thinking, well, health i already said this or how did i phrase it before? and just a -- had to really kind of redo my mind here to try to -- >> if i can pop in for a moment. my biggest concern was similar. i remember asking my editor, please save me from contradicting myself in chapter seven versus what i said in chapter three, because i think of the chapters as discrete bets and -- entities and yet they have to flow and i was terrified i would contradict myself from one idea to another so the last read was like that, just to make sure there weren't little things, discrepancies. repetition probably swan inevitable but the discrepancies is what i was really scared about. >> garrett, so you're a veteran author, after eight books. how was writing this one similar or different from your previous books? >> this is actually the longest book i work on. took took 13 years because i started in 2007 not knowing i would initially write a book, but it's kind -- that turned into that. i do think it does get easier with time. port u.s. just the ed iting process in your own head as your collecting information. you'll have a huge list of content and you cannot publish it and all have to be distill is down to something much more, smaller, readable. has to have a flow, have to be able to tell a story and with time you get better at that. there's a phrase i like to use, it's -- you have to be like medea and kill your own children, deciding what content to leave. in you can put something on a blog post or something else. but i'd like, the process of writing it, i really tried to write each chapter as if it were a magazine article. a lengthy article, and i tell people you can really -- even though it doesn't follow chronologically but you can follow any order you want, each chapter tells a different narrative and a different aspect of the decade's history. so i encourage people, jump around if you want to read but "the new york times" and how people are living today into their 80s, you can start there. gay marriage, wrote about that as well. >> so each chapter in the book does stand alone but you had a whole decade of events, that just grew, and some cases you could pick discrete events and other chases you had trend. talkout methodology and deciding what you include and what you didn't include and what you made a whole chapter about. >> ultimately i looked at things especially in hindsight as we look in the rearview mirror and decide, what was really -- what really resonated with us culturally, politically, economically, and then other things were like, that's kind of passed by. and other things, especially hindsights, there's some things you would change. did include one paragraph but pandemic in 2009. we had a pandemic that year. hindsights i probably would have put a couple of paragraphs about it but it wasn't that huge deal in american society in 2009 -- >> but you're doing a whole new book. make up for your sin of leaving it out. >> yeah. kind of funny. he weren't talking about a whole lot. we were dealing with the outcome from the great recession in 2009, and we did get a vaccine fairly quickly as well. so it didn't become this lockdown thing where it was politicized like you see today. >> carlos, you had to sit through 150 books -- sift through 150 books and you're very sure -- thorough, i heard how you do your reviews in the "washington post," take notes and read books through more than once. did you do something similar for your book? >> yes. and i am sort of pa the include old school -- pa the include old -- pathetically. and i have huge binderses that prisoned out each chapter and i would lug that binder back and forth. and -- but here i think a lot of it was a process selection. that was the biggest issue. once he decide i'm going to have a chapter on books about identity and those debates or books out truth or immigration. maybe i read 20 put only 12 will make into it the chapter, and similarly, there were whole subjects that in hindsight looking back on the trump president si i would have wanted to include. but there weren't -- there wasn't a critical mass of books that were out and ready with deep insights on the supplement like, trump foreign policy and integrity what that real use means and how that played out. i think it's still being kind of excavated. i thought about a chapter on all the impeachment books because there were impeachment books coming out as soon as trump was elected. already there were books making the case why he'll be impeached and i'm glad i decided not to do that because those books would have focused so heavily on the first impeachment on the mueller investigation and then we had a second one after the election, and so it would have felt hopelessly dated. that was the challenge to not try to make the books so, so timely and so up to date that it wouldn't -- it would keep it from ever feeling timeless, feeling like a snapshot of the moment. >> the pandemic, too, right? >> yes. that was tricky. so, my original deadline norman uscript was early 2020, i think like february or march, and then we would going to have a pub date of july and just when i was supposed to hand in the manuscript and suddenly the world changes and mid-march and i begged the publisher give me a few more weeks. i have to find a way incorporate that in the book and i wanted to avoid books that try to be timely and add a quickie chapter in the expend here's a bunch of stuff that happened at the end of my reporting and that's always as a reader, a little dissatisfying to me, and i knew i wanted to try to find different moments throughout the book where it would make sense to address some of that. there's a chapter on trump's management of the white house, a chapter on democracy, and the response to covid which fit into a few of those of different places so i want to weave it through the book. my next deadline was just when the george floyd video came into the world and huge protests around the country and i knew i had to address this throughout the book and not just with a quick epilogue or something. so, in the end we ended up pushing the book from july to october. so came out just about a month before the election. but that way i was able to address the momentous issues of trump's final year in office, which i think both helped the book and i think of this book just as a way to help me remember how i thought about this period, what was i thinking as i was absorbing this, and i'm glad i as able to include that as well. >> garrett, were there any particular books about the 2000s that you found especially useful in doing your book? >> i went through most of the major literature of the 2000s and it's an incredible list of books that came out. a huge number of books that came out about the bush administration and surprised me, i think w's -- george w. bush's memoir was pretty good and i think he was fairly circumspect about things especially years later. other books, for example, dick cheney's memoir which i called, i ain't sorry for nothing, because he really was unapostle unapologetic but the bush administration. there were other books but all the great recession and i think one of this most fascinating one was by michael lewis and that was called the big short and it is quite good. there's so much great -- including the 9/11 commission report which was well-written. >> peeking of michael lewis, carlos, later the -- one of your top 12 books. >> yes. i'm a big fan of his work ever since fliers poker, and the fifth risk, came with a lot less hoopla than most michael lewis books, which you know that they're coming and everything. this one just arrived for me and i didn't know it was coming, and it's just a -- to me one of the most useful books of the last five years, and that -- especially it was written before the pandemic but before the pandemic it was merely sort of prescient. now it just feels prophetic because it locks at what happens to the work office government when its expertise is consistently undermine and devalued. and how we sort of forget that government is in indian ways this massive risk mitigation exercise; they're there to try to make so it when bad stuff happens we're somehow prepared and he does it by looking at not sort of the sexy cabinet agency, not like defense and state and treasury about the department of commerce and agriculture and energy which most people don't necessarily know a lot about. >> actually do a lot more than people realize. >> yes. sometimes more than the cabinet secretaries who are appointed realize. think it surprised rick perry the department of energy is protecting nukes, and not about oil drilling, but i tried to identify books like that, that instead of necessarily being -- some of the very good but in the moment look at all the crazy stuff happening books that we saw a lot of during the trump presidency, starting with "fire and fury pie to looks like lewis' that i think were helpful to help you understand what the impact of this administration was and a long-term way. so i'm also a big fan -- i think that you mentioned garrett that that it become movies. i think the obamas have picked up some kind of option or something for the fifth risk, with thunder new production company so who knows, we may see a department of energy bureaucrats becoming heroes on television. >> so garrett, basic premise in your book is that the events of the 2007 -- 2000s led to increased polarization and married divides into two separate political camps with a little overlap and this in turn lead in 2016 to the election of the ultimate disrupter, donald trump. talk about that. >> we certainly have been a divided society since the vietnam era, but i think things really quite sped up and there's a number of factors in there. there's of course the endless wars we have been fight, both in iraq and afghanistan which if you look at trump's followers they tend to be pro military and pro police and a small art above the country provide most of the soldiers, .05% of the country. very small. and those people feel particularly upset about the endless wars. another key factor is the housing bubble and once that finally burst how much that injured so many different people across american society and the housing bubble collapse leads directly to the great recession. you wasn't have a great reseth without the housing bubble collapse the bankers nearly went out of business as well, and rescuing rescuing the bank was deeply unpoplar? there was no rescue at all for the little guy but was for the bankers, but learn that lesson from the great depression. don't let your banks go out of business or the economy collapses. so that was deeply unpopular and remember this took place in the fall of 2008 right during the presidential campaign, and look what happens two weeks after obama comes into office, the tea party is founded. it's both economic but there's also a cultural factor going on, in 2008 the commerce department, the census bureau issued a forecast saying by the 2040s white el beim the largest minorities in the country and for working class whites that's a huge dill, huge loves -- loss of status and society is now changing and a lot of -- and you combine all of those things together and the tea party is formed two weeks after obama comes into office and you can draw a direct line between the tea party and trump supporters. the tea party without all the concerns about the deficit the tea party had. so the tea party came in and they would not work with obama. that was their mantra. in the machine, stop compromising with obama and we'll not work with that man. and we're not racist, that's what they said. obviously race was a folksor in this, absolutely. >> some escreens you devote whole chapters too are clearly turning points like 9/11 and the iraq war and the great recession. but some aren't so much. ... >> and wanted to retire and of course then we have the .com meltdown is only ended up working for another decade to because perform got hit really o predict so and how we look at that throughout the decade and cover other issues as well, in 2005, who come to a machine printed that's all part of what cultivated what was going on. and much of the country look at that and sortable chart, my gosh, you keep a personal life throughout the time. and betty went out together wills updated empowers of attorney because of that is all part of the thinking that was going on at the time. we have to consider that we all have three decades longer to live and people who lived a hundred years ago. that's astonishing how much longer we have. the fear that their running out of money before we run out of life so that is important to include. because were starting to see the first decade, the baby boomers starting to retire rated this a big deal because there's so many of them. >> carless the basic point of your book is we really are particularly enamored but a lot of what was written about trump and the trump era and argue that a lot of these books code-named out to quickly and sort of recaptured the moment. all of the outrage that we saw. your book is not so much a rundown about trump and trump land as it is about the broadest exploration of how we as a country grappled with trump phenomenon target is to talk about that. carlos: you're right, it is sort of a broader critique that i am trying to make here and i really appreciated that we are putting these two books in conversation because i feel like so much of what happened in the. that i am examining is really an outflow of the destruction that garrett his describing that came before in the polarization that was created. when donald trump is at the republican convention saying that i am your voice and i speak for a few, it's clear who is talking to. it is not the country at large. in the polarization i thank you so evident in a lot of the writing where trump himself was such a destructive force that it was so unexpected that even trump steam did not think he would win. and that when he did, a lot of the thinkers and the writers in the kind of they retreated to those comfort zones and to their corners of the box. and you see that come alive in the writing. even journalists very much assumed are writing in good faith, they saw the same realities through very particular prisms. i start off the book with the story this one guy who was a longtime democrat and it was delegate to the 92 convention the nominated bill clinton the labor organizer from pennsylvania and is profiled in this book called the great revolt. and he paints them as the straight up economic, learning about trade deals and does not like political dynasties i think democrats have gotten the working man so become the trump supporter. and that is the story in a recognized in early 2018 and then later that year, many books in between that i'd read and reviewed, i'm reading another book by been bradley jr called the forgotten and he profiled this guy his labor organizer longtime democrat, and 92 convention delegate. and like henry to the sky. like i know this guy, this is familiar. in hemet, went back and look, is the same god and fascinating thing that is in the second book, is a full on cultural. his concern about transgender people and bathrooms and he thinks 911 was an inside job. maybe he changed dramatically in the span of a few months. people radicalized in a different way but what was clear to me is these different team interpretations of the same person really set very well with a larger argument that each writer was making about why people supported. he was much more an argument about economic populism bradley was much more an argument about sort of the cultural anxieties and racial animus. so to me, that signaled that are also susceptible to this and that i think that week and up seeing the world their particular prism. so the books that managed to break through that when the winds that really meant the most to me. or that showed that some of these problems are really much longer running. trump did not invent the art our immigration problems or debates in the book like eric's america for americans. it shows that alongside tradition of america's nation of immigrants, the tradition of this intense strain in america as well. those two things can happen at the same time, those two things go together. as a books and often give me that longview in the show to me that trump maybe is unique in that he holds him a these destructive forces together and will moment but that those larger debates are kind of ever present in the market story. it helped me make sense of the time as well. >> you might immigration on minorities. you have a whole chapter of information on minorities. talk about how that factored in. >> it is been a long time, it is been a long-term debate in our country about immigration and the roles and how much you can upset the societal balance etc. and always likened it to a pendulum swinging back and forth. you look back to the 1920s predict effectively if we slandered the shut against anybody was not from northwestern europe so they wanted white people to come to this country. blessed all of the way to lyndon johnson in 1955 when he finally got an invitation on the. later on, ronald reagan had immigration reform and then george w. bush actually was even to this day, a champion of immigrants. but the white working class base of the republican party does not want anymore because they see information and threats to their status and also to personal economics some of you might be able to take the job. so those two are arm more like their coming in. for the working classes much more of an issue with them and also a cultural issue because they worry about being replaced. the biggest who coming in right now, not so much for mexico but more from central america. that's been over the last few years. and it makes it very difficult for this really no agreement on this issue of society. it has been going on for a while and obama was able to get the question settled. could not get it settled biden would like to but you know, i don't know. so it's a tough question in american society. very relevant of our cultural today right now. >> so we have this political climax with trump and we talked about how in 2002 - 2010. and his presence and now we are beyond that. we now have a president is a healer in a calmer in the still divided. joe biden's going to to try to bring us together. so what about all of this end of democracy. >> we certainly learned of the last two years that democracy is more vital than we thought. policing the guardrails actually held that actually yes, the citizens themselves are getting involved in their own government in this society. this key factor. could trump and have under from happening again. i think in many ways he was a singular event in which we learned lessons from but there certainly could be of the populace that come out there. we obviously look at other democracies, germany in 1920s and 1930s. that elected heller legally in 1933. so it's all these little, we know how much more fragile democracy is even though the institutions have survived to get through these years with our democracy intact. there are some threats voter suppression or think trying to trend ring and propaganda from and etc. those are all factors. and possibly overturn our applecart here. >> i agree with garrett that we have come to realize how fragile american democracy can be. remember reading a book, one of the foremost thinkers on democracy and he wrote this book a couple of years ago restart enough saying, i spent all my time studying democratic accounts around the world. and ever it occurred to make that would have to worry about here. and of course the one thing, the people have learned during this time is that our democracy is as much guided by sort of generally accepted norms of conduct rather than fight laws. like norms has become the time. were all cheering for norm at the bar. it is what everybody remembers from this time. and so i think that is useful because this kind of faith in the system, something called the system is going to hold versus the people make up the system. at any given moment can be more or less protective of it. and so i think that is the great lesson. i don't know that we can declare victory, that we are completely beyond this. i think it is fair to say that while both parties have moved more extreme directions toward the left or right, i think that one party is radicalized more than the other. i think it's very hard to democracy when there is debate over acceptance of basic facts. you can debate policies. but only with an agreed-upon set of facts. that's increasingly harder to do in a democracy so i think what happened to the republican party will be extremely important if you want to maintain a healthy democracy which in this country has been a healthy two-party system. i am in and historians who can do with garrett doesn't kind of excavate history as opposed to lifelong going to tell you about reconstruction again because i think that is very difficult because so much of it seems so fluid and still in play in up for reinterpretation. so i appreciate books like that that give us the tools to be able to understand what we are at this moment. i think it sometimes very hard to see your own 2 feet planted in the moment you have a sense of where you are. i think that were trying to do in the book but i realize that i hope i don't have to write a volume to but i don't know that the trump era is necessarily over in that sense. garrett: what would you like to see a book about. but you haven't yet. tell us actually carlos you take that one first and then garrett. carlos: while this is dangerous, get to the publishers exactly what i want to review. >> i can guide you. sort of memoirs of which you would like to see. carlos: i do want to see memoirs. i like what garrett was saying about the memoirs kind of the financial crisis. in singular really important to understanding this. and there are some key participants in the big battles of this time that i went to serve from. somebody like the white house counsel trump whose primary focus seems to be to help transform the judiciary's country get as many judges appointed as he could while he was working in a job and he seemed to succeed at it. i want know more about that story. want to know and hear from kiersten nielsen who was at the center of all of these debates over family separations and the border policy. i thought i wanted to hear from robert palmer but i don't know that i do anymore. i think i'm kind of more doubt. and i think that also selfishly in the memoir it just doesn't cover covid-19 and but an extraordinary career at the intersection of kind of science and washington. he could be very interesting story that's the story that has always been very complicated and american life. the relationship between science and politics. so i would love to hear it from his vantage point of a love to read some trust relationship with evangelicals. an early deep dive and how that works. selfishly i would like a lot of books i would add another chapter for condition of my book. >> garrett. garrett: i think not only like to see him write a memoir but a biography. i really do because he is such a long history dating back to 1980s when he talked about the hiv crisis. he had been there since then in the same position which is just remarkable i think he's an important figure in our industry really do. also i would like to see i'm only startled about how few books came out of the obama administration. the bush ministration, my gosh everyone remarked. they're trying to overtime and obama at the edition of his book out. we were to predict with not that much literature on him. really surprised by that fact. several he had rely upon the choices. i had the first two years of his administration and it was just not that much . so i would like to see more. >> , both of you to your publishers. i want to thank you both for taking time to do this. each of your books really helps us understand the things that you write about in the issues that you write about so congratulations. and i think we need to say goodbye. >> gentlemen, thank you so much and this is been a fascinating conversation and an amazing way to kickoff the 2021 book festival. and i want to thank each of you
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