Transcripts For CSPAN2 Caroline 20240706 : vimarsana.com

Pleasure to introduce caroline, caroline janney, professor of the American Civil War at the university of virginia, where she also served as director of the john l nels the third center for Civil War History where she succeeded her mentor, gary w gallagher. Shes the author or editor of 7 books and is one of the series editors for the university of North Carolina prestigious civil war america series. She has served as president of the society of civil war historians and is here to talk about her new book ends of war the unfinished fight of lees army after appomattox. I am a 30 pages in and it is riveting. It is a wonderful book. I just this morning saw a brandnew review that appeared in todays wall street journal by someone named Harold Holzer and he calls it, immensely readable and utterly convincing. Please join me in welcoming caroline janney. [applause] good morning. So first, a big thanks to john, the entire class gets a quiz. So we can institute that policy right now if that will help. A big thank you to jonathan for everything and a deep thank you to harold for inviting me for a review that i am most humbled by. So thank you. To every one. Thank you for coming out in person. I think we are going to get straight to appomattox or at least after appomattox. In the years since 1865, i am sure many of you in this room have used appomattox as a shorthand for referring to the end of the war. Appomattox was and continues to be seen as the end of lees army and therefore the end of the American Civil War. The events between april 9th and april 15, 1865, have become so wellknown that i think we taken for granted. We almost seem to read lincolns assassination a week after lees surrender as a postscript, a close to the war. An event that had little to no effect on how the war ended other than placing Andrew Johnson in the white house which is of course another story. But what if we step back . What if we try to experience the months between april 15th, and may 15, 1865, day by day, uncertain as to what is going to come next . How does the world look differently . How does the end of the war look differently . In particular, how does lincolns assassination complicate or change the policies grant set in motion of appomattox. We are going to look closely at the period from april 9th to may of 1865 in an effort to grapple with the uncertainty surrounding the socalled end of the confederacy. I will let out but while Joe Johnstons army was absolutely important we are going to focus on lees army because lees army is what the confederate and union high command saw as the most important confederate army. We will start where we should start, macleans parlor at appomattox with the surrender terms grant offered lee that day. The first was standard in most surrenders. Confederates would turn in their weapons and their flag. As it vicksburg, grant allowed the rebels to go home on parole. Are really important point we sometimes gloss over. They went home as prisoners of war on parole. Rather than being sent to prisoner of war camps they went home as paroled prisoners of war. Grant added a provision that had not appeared in other surrenders, one that would prove controversial from the moment that he offered it. That is that paroled confederates would not be disturbed by us authorities so long as they maintained Good Behavior so long as they did not break any laws. By including this provision grant had tacitly acknowledged lees soldiers as enemy combatants and as such they could not be traders they could not be tried for treason for waging war. The following morning, meeting with lee, grant, would issue special order number 73 which allowed paroled prisoners of war to have these passes we are so familiar with that allowed them to go through union lines when necessary to get rations when necessary to allow them to travel free on government railroads and steamers when need be. The marks you see on the passes are stamps from Provost Marshals offices. We have another, dont expect you to be able to read this but just know that what this is including is for soldier going home to texas, as late as july of 1865 his is stopping at Union Provost marshal offices and getting provisions, getting transportation on his way home. These parole passes are documents that allow these paroled soldiers to do this. The problem was a substantial portion of lees army had not surrendered at appomattox. Here we are going to do some very rough math so bear with me. Of the 60,000 men that lee had available to him in the trenches around petersburg and richmond as of april 1st, at most, 28,000 of those surrendered at appomattox. If we account for the casualties along the way, between april 2nd and april 8th, somewhere around 11,500 casualties. A conservative estimate would suggest there were 20,000 men who should have surrendered with lees army at appomattox who failed to do so. Why . Their reasons were varied among themselves, some had been foot store and straggling, starving stragglers, unable to keep up with the relentless space of lees army as it pressed west hoping to find the connection to move south and join joe johnson. Some of these men had dropped out of the ranks because they believed there was little use in resisting anymore and simply elected to go home. Others saw the writing on the wall and hope to avoid what they saw as the humiliation of surrender. There are letters from a few soldiers who talk about their fears of being marched through the streets of washington as prisoners of war. Some of them simply refused to acquiesce and made it past the union lines. This was especially true for a number of cavalrymen, 2,000 cavalry troopers, other artillerymen. I love these maps on the American Battlefield trust that can show us those that are escaping the union cordons. We often forget there was a small battle on the morning of april 9th. Some of these men made it all away to lynchburg, some disbanded, some went home for good, others went home to await word from men like general roster. Indeed on april 12th, the very day that lees infantry was participating in the formal surrender ceremony, that very same day, rosser had written to stanford, virginia where he issued a proclamation, i dont expect you to be able to see it but heres evidence that it exists, a proclamation that he notes is from the headquarters of the army of Northern Virginia. Stop for a moment and think about that. The army of Northern Virginia is supposed to be at appomattox. Participating in a formal surrender. And here we have rosser not only declaring this the headquarters in stanton but giving himself a nice little promotion. Hes now a lieutenant general. And heres what he has to say which he called upon his men to shoulder their arms and muskets once more, returned to the field to meet the arrogant invader who had insulted you, robert you, murdered your dearest friends and relatives, outraged your fair women, just boiled your homes and dishonored all that is most dear and sacred. He promised he would lead his men against this dastardly foe and promised he would Never Surrender until, quote, the purple current ceases to flow from my heart, or until you are a free independent, happy people. Rise like men and come to me, he commanded. He instructed companies and regiments to assemble in charlottesville, stanton or lynchburg without delay. In other words for men like rosser, the war was not over yet. Others headed south to North Carolina where they hoped to join the forces of Joseph Johnston and continue the fight. In short, appomattox represent a great irony. It was and continues to be seen as the end of the lees army and by extension the civil war. But a significant portion of lees army had refused to see it as such. For them, the war had not quite yet ended. Grant new this. He knew that there were men missing from the ranks. So what of these 20,000 men . Did the terms that grant had offered at appomattox apply to them . Were they to be included in the surrender . The morning of april 10th secretary of War Edwin Stanton wrote to grant asking if the troops operating in Loudoun County in particular, namely concerned about john mosby and his partisans, stanton writes to grant and asks if one of these men are included in the surrender terms or only those under lees immediate command. Grant rights back the surrender was only the men left with the pursued army at the time of the surrender. Those that had escaped or detached are not included, but in this same telegram, the same response to stanton grant shows his flexibility. Even if these men had not been included, they should be, they should all be included, the terms should be offered to all the fragments of the army of Northern Virginia so they might voluntarily surrender. Generosity flowed naturally from the winning commander who was extending the magnanimous terms that lincoln had told him he should do at appomattox. But we are mistaken to think it is just a magnanimous gesture on grants part, theres more to this than that. On the morning of april 10th, grant was not so sure that the war was over. He did not believe that lees forces, and certainly all the other Confederate Forces had fully capitulated and underscoring all of this was grants fear of continued warfare. When he spoke to lee on the morning of april 10th, lee had pointed out, quote, the south was a big country and we might have to march over it three or four times before the war had finally ended. Had this given grant pause . If the cycles of retaliation continued with the likes of mosby and other guerrillas even with the surrender of the main armies this war might never end. Grant needed every single rebel to lay down his gun including the partisan rangers, including those men who had escaped surrendering at appomattox. For grant, per rolling was a deterrent. It was a means of keeping these men from fighting the war by other means. He admitted he saw paroled soldiers as more trustworthy than disloyal citizens. Here is where we see grant the soldier really coming into play. He believed men would be honor bound by their paroles and the punishment for breaking your parole was according to the labor code was death. Given these circumstances, on the evening of april 10th stanton wrote to Major General Winfield Scott hancock who was headquartered in winchester and stanton ordered hancock to print and circulate the entire correspondence between lee and grant that eventually led to the surrender. Those letters back and forth we are well familiar with, stanton wants hancock to print these to prove to any rebels who might be hiding in the Shenandoah Valley that lee had capitulated. The secretary instructed hancock to all detachments and stragglers on the army of Northern Virginia who voluntarily turned themselves in to Union Authorities would be protected under the same terms of parole. They would be permitted to go to their homes. Throughout winchester and throughout the rest of the lower valley you would find these flyers tacked throughout the city and if thats not enough hancock has printed in the newspaper announcement, dont expect you to read it but the announcement says come in and get paroled. He promises every military restraint shall be removed thats not absolutely essential. This war will be over if you wanted to be over. Come in, seek your parole. He promises, this is hancock speaking to women as much as anyone, that your sons, your husbands and brothers shall remain with you unmolested if they will come involuntarily. There is also the carrot part, the stick part is that if they dont come involuntarily, if we have 2 go out and seek them and arrest them, they will be detained, they will be sent to northern prisoner of war camps. This works. In the days and weeks that followed thousands of lees men throughout virginia decided that it was in their best interests to turn themselves in. One of the fascinating things i found in my research were all the paroles that took place inside throughout virginia into West Virginia, maryland, North Carolina and beyond. Very rough map but to give you a sense of the timing, in the days immediately following appomattox between april 12th and april 16th, some 2800 paroles were given in lynchburg. In brecksville to the right, the red circle that you see to the southeast of appomattox, the Provost Marshal recorded 1600 names between april 14th, and april 17th. These paroles are going on first in areas that are approximate to appomattox but we will see them spread out. Heres where lincolns assassination comes into the story. Contrary to what we might expect, rather than suspending the per rolling process lincolns assassination made it all the more pressing that the remnants of lees army who had not surrendered yet do so. Reports of marauders had only intensified efforts to find and parole all of lees men along the Northern Neck of virginia up and down the Shenandoah Valley, in counties just north of richmond and across the potomac into maryland the United States cavalry went on a mission hunting any rebel who had not been paroled. Their chief target was none other than john mosby and his rangers. In mid april confederate are tillis chapman from richmond observed the gorilla mosby seems to hang over these yankee lines like a frightful nightmare. And they seem to suspect every man as belonging to his command. Grant had long insisted that guerrillas remain the chief threat to peace, but rumors that mosby was complicit in lincolns assassination had only fueled grants desire to smash all elements of irregular resistance. There was talk in washington that mosby had in fact met with booth in the capital and some suggested the assassin had crossed the potomac and were endeavoring to make their way to mosbys rangers. Lewis how, alias lewis payne, who attempted to assassinate secretary stewart had been part of mosbys command. He had deserted in january 18, 65. There is reason to believe that perhaps mosby is involved in all this. Yet again we head back to winchester where general Scott Hancock was charged with compelling mosby to surrender. Even poor link before lincolns assassination hancock had copies of that exchange of letters between grant and lee. He had offered the rangers the same terms that had been offered to anyone else. But the possibility of assassins escaping through the valley had heightened hancocks sense of urgency not just where mosby was been concerned but for any and all on paroled rebels. Hancock now instructed his Provost Marshals to include information that had not been included on those parole passes that were printed at appomattox even at lynchburg and farmville. Now you can see the parole pass looks much different than that that was given out at appomattox, now in addition to the name, regiment and company, now theres a physical description. The age, the height, complexion, hair color, eye color, all of this was to be included. Perhaps this information would be helpful in confirming paroles, or more ominously, in identifying those who had been involved in the assassination. Hancock sends out cavalry patrols up and down the valley looking for detached units, looking for stragglers. Many of them are coming in, what we need to keep in mind is there is the Second Period of anxiety not just for loyal unionists but also for confederates. Many of those men, talking especially cavalry and artillery who had horses and had the ability to get away. They know these paroles have been offered but will they be taken off the table following lincolns assassination. Many of them conclude that in fact they better go and while they can and get paroled. Within a week of this nearly 1800 men were paroled in the Shenandoah Valley. Other parole sites include richmond, northumberland, louisa, charlottesville, fairfax which i want to give you a sense how this will change. These are the paroles i have been able to locate between april 10th and april 14th. Look what happens after lincolns assassination. They just absolutely blossom. More and more men are coming in, theres more urgency on behalf of those confederates and Union Provost marshals in order to find these men. If most of these men willingly sought parole, others found themselves arrested for failing to do so. In the Early Morning hours of april 15th Brigadier General William Payne was arrested by the federal cavalry at his home in warrington, virginia. He would claim when he was arrested that he had just been ready to see hancock and turn himself in. A nice claim. But amid the manhunt for the assassins, he was sent to washingtons old capital prison on april 21st he was sent on to johnsons island in ohio. He would not be released until june 2nd. Keep in mind he doesnt know hes going to be released at all. He is going to sit in prison for a long time for failing to seek out his parole. Then there is mosby. Mosby continued to refuse to surrender his command. Despite several meetings with hancocks subordinates mosby elected to disband his rangers on april 21st rather than surrender them. His final act as a kernel complete, mosby and 6 of his men climbed astride their horses and headed south, they headed south to richmond where mosby said he hoped to confer with lee and find out how he might continue this war. The majority of his men, however, road not south but northwest. They headed to winchester. By the evening of april 22nd. At least 380 rangers had surrendered themselves to hancock including mosbys secondincommand, Lieutenant Colonel william chapman. Equally if not more important, hancock reported that he had convinced some of mosbys men to pursue their commander motivated by a 2000 reward. My, how the tables have turned. If are rolling not only continued but intensified in the wake of lincolns assassination the president s murder also changed the circumstances for many of lees men who had already been paroled. For starters on april 9th, following april 9th in the days following april 9th, large numbers of paroled prisoners began streaming into washington, into baltimore, and even as this illustrates coming into new york city. Taking steamers via fort monroe. They hoped to sail from fort monroe through chesapeake bay, go to baltimore and from baltimore they hope to get on rail lines, perhaps head west to cincinnati, to louisville, these were soldiers who claimed they were going to kentucky, tennessee and other places but hearing from an exasperated general wallace in baltimore especially in the wake of lincolns assassination, grant is going to change the terms he offered appomattox especially in regard to that special order number 73 they came on the morning of april 10th. Let me read to you from grants response to wallace. It was no part of the agreement that we were to transport or feed paroled prisoners. By the terms of the surrender, they were allowed to return to their homes. I ordered that there paroles should be a path to go through our lines where it was necessary to do so to reach their homes. When they traveled on roads or boats run exclusively by the government, no fair would be collected. I did not calculate that men from North Carolina, South Carolina and georgia would expect to go home by way of new york. Why would one think so . In other words, he says, we are not furnishing transportation anymore, that deal is off the table. Part of the problem doesnt have to do with baltimore or new york, it has to do with richmond. Confederates are flooding into richmond, both those who are paroled and an paroled. We see the mingling of confederate soldiers descending upon the hotel that had been a place many confederates enjoyed having a cigar or nice brandy they are infuriated that Union Soldiers occupy the hotel, brawls break out here. Officers a been allowed to keep their sidearms at appomattox. So there is a rule that goes up that no one can have their sidearms because things are getting a little too heated. They are also getting paroled in richmond. This is a photograph from the library of congress collection, if you scroll tight enough on the lighthouse of the confederacy you can see this line of confederate soldiers which are they there to get paroled . They are paroled in the Customs House but perhaps these are men who have lined up to get paroled. Whats going on . General order, who is in command wants to get rid of these confederates who are descending on the capital of virginia and he has given passes to a few officers and men to travel through northern cities. He says it would be better to have them disperse, have them gone than to have them all congregating here in richmond. This is a city that was already bursting at the seams, some 25,000 destitute women, children, africanamerican and whites are flooding the city and that hes at his wits head. But grant is becoming increasingly frustrated. We can see, no doubt less magnanimous in the wake of lincolns murder. He shoots back strict guidelines that are very similar to those he sent to wallace in baltimore, no more, they are not to be sent north. We are not providing transportation anymore. Grant is so infuriated he adds one more provision, quote, all issues of forage and subsistence to the must also be discontinued. For those of you that might be familiar with the notion of rations that were given at appomattox with magnanimous gesture, by this point grant has had it. He is saying no more. We have this flood of confederates, people havent thought of what to do with these men. There are other issues going on too. Within the union lines in alexandria and fairfax returning confederates are now being required to show up at the Provost Marshals office and display their parole past to prove that they have been paroled. Their names are being printed in the local newspapers, the alexandria gazette is filled every day with names of returning rebels, no doubt a warning to loyal unionists. There s also the fact that in alexandria several hundred paroled rebels were being held in a former slave pen. Could this be anymore ironic . Men who had gone the war to protect their rights as slaveholders, who had bought and traded human flesh in the confines of this prison are now being held here as prisoners of war. All of this was a reminder that these men were in fact prisoners of war, they were not free men, and it was unclear what their status would be in this post war, if we can call it a postwar world. So many of lees soldiers are facing this type of situation, this face the proposition that they had no homes to which to return. On april 16th, the day following lincolns death, hancock back in the valley telegraphed Major General henry hallock as to whether confederate soldiers from loyal states would be allowed to return to their homes. April 16th is the first instance that i find of this, thats why i find it is connected to lincolns assassination. Hancock informed halleck of this. Many confederate officers and soldiers from missouri and other loyal states are coming here on there paroles desiring to go to their homes. Thus far i have detained them. This is yet another problem that the War Department had not considered. What do you do with the 75,000 confederates from the loyal border states, men who had left their loyal states and gone off to war to fight for the confederacy . One thing, to go back to a state of disunion where the majority of the population had been in rebellion, where the terms for the entire state were still up for debate, how would they be readmitted into the union . But sending them back to loyal states, back to places where the vast majority of the population was in fact loyal, should they be allowed to return their . Especially in the wake of lincolns assassination . Especially with the likes of booth and others from maryland, should they be allowed to return home . In the week following lincolns death, grant and attorney general james speed what offer opinions and policies that modified those terms that had been offered on april 9th. Imperative for us to keep in mind that johnstons army is still on the field, kirby smith is still in the field. It is not clear that this war is over. On april 19th, the day of lincolns funeral in washington, grant informed hancock that, quote, all who claim homes in states that never passed ordinances of secession have forfeited them and they can only return on compliance with the amnesty proclamation. In other words they had to take the oath in order to go home. He spells out which states he means, maryland, kentucky, delaware and missouri are such states. They may return to West Virginia on there paroles. We will come back to that in a moment. Following the controversy over the terms sherman had initially offered to joe johnston in North Carolina which proved both overly generous and overtly political, secretary of war stanton had asked attorney general james speed to weigh in on his legal opinion grants terms, not only the terms that sherman is offering but grants terms, specifically speed had several questions dealing with rebel soldiers coming back to loyal states. April 22nd, speed what offer his opinion which said in part first, rebel officers and soldiers who appeared in public in their uniform, were breaking their parole and therefore should be arrested and detained. Keep in mind april 9th surrender terms said nothing about confederates wearing their uniforms. Second, like grant, speed declared rebels had no homes in loyal states. He said they could not return to maryland, missouri, kentucky, delaware. They could return to West Virginia. General wallace in baltimore had been waiting for Something Like this. He wastes no time implanting these orders. It is an open you and by the attorney general but grant turns into a general order meaning all the military has to enforce this. So wallace will order the immediate arrest and imprisonment of confederate marylanders who had returned home. You should a circular throughout the newspapers calling for all loyal citizens to help ferret out offenders. This isnt just a problem playing out among the union high command. On april 24th Baltimore City council formally protested the return of any rebels, quote, be leaving as we do their presence in our midst will be a constant source of irritation fraught with the deadliest mischief. Again, we have to keep the assassination in mind. Group of unionists in frederick, maryland and Carroll County bard confederates from returning. Theres in Allegheny County created a committee of vigilance and safety, do you hear the revolutionary war rhetoric here. These committees which were created in all counties you see shaded here, the Northern Tier of maryland counties, their job was to look for returning rebels, report any confederates who might return to the state. Benjamin harris, a citizen of maryland and democratic member of congress was arrested on april 26th, the same day johnston would eventually surrender and booth would be killed, harris was arrested for giving money to two paroled army of Northern Virginia soldiers so they might disregard there paroles and, quote, continue to make war on the United States. The war is not over. As in early may, in shepherdstown, maryland, he was arrested and tried by military condition for wearing his confederate uniform in public. In other words a violation of his parole. These are all ways we can see the terms changing. In West Virginia unionists felt particularly stung by speed and grants decision which said that rebels could return to West Virginia. While West Virginians were equally as unhappy about the likes of a potential booth in their midst they had in the reason of being worried, West Virginia had been to bid it is a state to the union in 1863 but it wasnt clear that this was going to hold. There was a great deal of fear that virginia would reclaim those counties that had left the state, to reclaim them as part of virginia and if rebels returned and voted they could potentially outnumber unionists and the state might revert to virginia, some 18,000 West Virginians had fought for the confederacy. In other words unionists faced this prospect of having thousands of paroled confederates returning to a state they had been trying to destroy. What do we see . Same pattern we see in maryland. Late april and early may, at least 12 different communities in union strongholds past resolutions barring former rebels from returning home. These are more than resolutions. In Marion County when reports surfaced of two rebels who had returned home the local union guard goes to their mothers house, asks to see the men, she says they are not here, they were hiding in the mountains and they were found, one was shot and killed and the other was severely wounded. The violence was continuing. There is much more to the story including as it relates to lincolns assassination. Decisions of Andrew Johnson and the story of africanamericans free and enslaved but i would like to leave you with this, rather than serving as a clear ending to the war, the surrender of lees army at appomattox brought into stark relief, legal, social and political questions that plagued the war since the beginning. Equally important rather than seeing lincolns assassination as a postscript to the war we need to look at the ways that shaped the wars ending. It had an enormous immediate and we can debate whether it had a longterm effect or not but it had immediate effect revealing both the flexibility, the ambiguous nature of grants terms and the willingness to change those terms if necessary. Chief among the questions to be asked, would the paroles serve as blanket pardons for every confederate soldier including the likes of lee. Many of these questions would come to the front in 1865 but all would serve as background for one of the chief questions of reconstruction, where would former rebels sit in the new nation . Thank you. [applause] we have time for questions, please come to the mics on either side so that you can be heard by your fellow members of the audience . Melissa williams from new york, us history teacher at Central Valley academy. My question, if these confederate soldiers whose homes were in border states, where are they supposed to go if they are not allowed to go to their homes . Thank you for what you are doing. Grant and others said not our problem. There is another little piece of the story too, anyplace the union army has occupied where the Freedmens Bureau set up camp, former governor wise of virginia comes back to one of his farms and he complains and says thats my property. Those legal questions get hammered out over the next couple years but grant and others feel thats not their problem. If you are willing to give up your home and go fight for rebellion for the confederacy, thats no longer their problem. You want the spoiler alert . Much of this is going to be rolled back in the summer of 1865 but this is a way to clamp down on that, great question. Wanted to ask about the atmosphere in dc itself. People loose and whether booth was on his own or just how many either paroled or not surrendered confederates were at large and enabling this . Great question. Washington dc is a tinderbox. Booth had made it out of the city that night, but people are uncertain where he is, how many conspirators he has. Rumors are running wild. Most the confederates coming back to washington in particular are those who had homes before. Thats not always the case. There are lots of exceptions. Alexander goes to washington as well but many of them are coming back and there are reports in all of the newspapers saying these men are back and we have to do something about these men. The notion of who is paroled and who is not, where it connects to booth is there is, whether its rumor or not, cant confirm whether it is true or not but there are stories going around the booth is passing himself off as a paroled confederate and that is how he is getting around, a fake parole pass. I know these existed, they were blank passes, many parole passes you see from appomattox were given out but not filled out until later and some are filling them in on their own, so to washington dc as a whole this is why speed is so concerned, this is why stanton is so concerned, this notion that all these confederates are just willynilly coming back as if there had never been a war in the first place. It is fraught with tension. Thank you very much. Student scholar. I was wondering, it seems we both agree that lees surrender was not the end of the war. Do you personally have an opinion on when the war actually ended . The 10 million question right there. I will put it this way. Walk a tight rope a little bit here. I do think it is absolutely essential that wes army, the bulk of lees army has surrendered, lee himself has surrendered, thats a signal, people from the east coast to San Francisco are celebrating the surrender at appomattox as the end of the war. There is a sense that this four long years of what people have been going through is coming to a end and the thinking the pandemic, we been in this how many months now, we are anxiously awaiting the end, you can imagine everyone whatever size that aside you are on wants the war to end. Theres this fervent hope the war is coming to a end, but the legal question of when the war is coming to a end wont be resolved for quite some time. Andrew johnson will declare it over in april of 66 for every state except texas. You dont have the major armies fighting anymore so in that sense yes, the war is for all intents and purposes over but people dont know that for sure. Thats the benefit of hindsight, we can look back and say that is how it played out but it is not Crystal Clear in that moment. Thank you for your question. Lincoln president ial library museum. Thank you for that fascinating talk, cant wait to read your book. I want to bridge it with your previous work and ask a memory question. What made it fascinating is that a completely forgotten story. Why does this story get dropped from our memory of the civil war altogether . Great question. I think what you are asking in particular is the failure to surrender at appomattox, is that the piece of the puzzle . The aftermath what happens after appomattox. The narrative is appomattox, putting aside the other surrenders, how messy this all is. We can talk about origins of the lost cause at play but Union Soldiers especially the army of the potomac and the army of the james are responsible for this narrative too. They want to see appomattox as the end of the war if you look at union regimental, you will get letters and diaries, many of them are focusing on the war at the end. When those soldiers and veterans are the first ones writing the history of the war in many respects, they are the ones telling their story, both in publications and at gatherings, that is the narrative they want to tell, the need end to the war, grant the magnanimous victor. All of that plays nicely into a Union Narrative as much as it plays into the lost cause in a different way. That is part of the story but you dont have to dig very deep to find this. Looking through confederate veterans there are a lot of stories of men who claim i Never Surrendered and they will talk about leaving before the surrender at appomattox. Its there, just not part of the mainstream narrative that people want to emphasize whether that is for union a reconciliation or otherwise. Interesting stuff. Pop quiz. In your research, did you run across how they were going to treat confederates who came back into northern states like indiana and ohio. I saw from the map there were committees, it did you find out how the government planned to deal with that particular problem . I didnt. I didnt go into the loyal northern states that werent part of the border states but thats a fascinating question and something that would make a great seminar paper or grad student paper, great question but i dont have an answer to it. Last question. Is it any bit surprising the departure from afghanistan was so chaotic given what you described that was not part of the myth, the reality of appomattox . I certainly couldnt have signed time to the book to come out as it did. I did a lot of reading thinking about how wars end, and from that perspective, no. These night, neat, clean endings we think we have, dont think it has ever been the case so certainly not in the 20th century when we think about neverending wars, the war on terror, how do you define a end to the war on terror or the war on drugs, when is there a definitive date vote that ends. I had been thinking of the messiness of all of that so its not surprising to me at all that its not as neat and clean because it never has been. Thank you all. [applause] American History tv toward the cia museum at the langley virginia headquarters. Robert bier highlighted covert action tools in the cias collection. He discussed the accuracy of the movie argo compared to the actual mission. Argo is a fascinating story for the cia because it utilizes so many different things. Our partnership with canada, in order to get the documents we need in order to the Department Officers hidden in the Canadian Embassy at that time. This is the period of time when uranian militants had taken over the us embassy and luckily these officers were out and about that day and when they saw what had happened they took refuge with the canadians. Because of that, we had to figure out a way of how are we getting them out of the country. Tony mendez, the architect of this idea came up with the best bad idea they could think of and this was what is sort of the back story of the people who are there and why are they leaving that country. The back story was that they were part of a location scouting crew for a movie called argo and the history of our go is that we knew of the makeup artists brought in to consult on the initial script for argo, so he knew tony so when tony said i need a script that would have a middle east location to it, can you think of a movie and he said ive got the perfect one for you called argo. It didnt going or so they bought it for a few thousand dollars over a weekend they set up a whole production crew, production studio out in hollywood, they even take out ads in variety magazine about argo, even have a reading of the script bringing in actors to read it over. People are interested in this movie argo but the real story is it is just a back story so when tony goes to iran and they go through that airport to leave the country if they are questioned by anyone they will say we are part of a location crew for the movie argo and we will tell them all about what theyve done and show the back story, ads in variety magazine so that we make sure to get them out safely. My favorite part of the story is when tony mendez get on the flight to leave iran, one of the state Department Officers looked at him and said you guys thought of everything. What do you mean . This was a swift airflight so they reflected one of the cities in switzerland so that was the city of argo that they were getting on that plane. I think that is a great end to the story, they get on the plane and off to freedom. Host a lot of the movie argo is pretty accurate . There is a lot of historical accuracy to the movie. They filmed here at headquarters to make sure they had the historical accuracy which is something we dont normally do but they also by the end of the movie may be go a little bit astray. I dont think there was gunfire on the tarmac as the plane was leaving that thats hollywood, got to juice it up. There are so many different parts to the movie argo and it is reflected in the movie about how complex it was to carry it out. Reporter watch the full tour online, can. Org street, search cia museum tour. Reporter the house passed measure to lt the us debt ceiling by 314one hundred 17. It now goes to theenate, the senate plans to take up the legislatn day. They will reconvene at 10 00 a. M. And take up for legislation later in the day watch live proceedings on the bill on cspan2. Wah live coverage of the house on cspan and watch all our congressional proceedings anytime on the cspan now video apps. 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Well, as youve probably guessed, based on the furniture layout down here, were going to do this next session a little bit differently. More of a conversation between and our speaker instead of a lecture. Its honor to introduce to