Transcripts For CSPAN2 Holiday 20240706 : vimarsana.com

Holiday spirit in the air, lights, music and decorations abound and many religious symbols are on display to commemorate this festive time of year. Good morning. Im your host historian edna friedberg. Today were going to examine some of the ways that winter were celebrated during the holocaust a topic that may surprise to think that anywhere celebrated at all at the very time that their existence was under threat by the nazi regime, european embraced age old traditions to observe their holiday of hanukkah, or they joined some christmas celebrations in, some instances their spiritual resistance gave them the strength to persevere. Im pleased to be joined by my colleague, Museum Historian lindsay macneill. Good morning lindsey. Morning, edna. Thanks for having me. Very glad to have you back. Always viewers, please post questions for lindsay in the comments section and well get to as many as possible in course of the live program. So, lindsay, lets put this in some context. The wanted to shape and control all aspects of german society, including holiday celebrations. Could you give us a sense of what that looked like in practice . Absolutely. So even before the nazis come to power, one of their main goals is be omnipresent to be super visible to germans everywhere. And they would do this with marches, parades and especially with flags. And the nazi flag has a swastika. It a symbol for the nazis of racial purity, but for many a symbol, obviously, of hate. And here you can see a really interesting picture shows in the foreground, candle holder or a menorah for the jewish holiday of hanukkah. And if you look closely in the background you could actually see one of these swastika flags. Now, this photo was taken before the nazis came to power, but you can really see here this juxtaposition on the one hand, the nazi symbol of hate, and on the other hand, a celebration of the holiday of hanukkah. And this photograph, as you said is from a year before the nazis become the the government in germany. But still, there is presence. And for people who are less familiar with hanukkah, it is actually traditional. You are supposed to put hanukkah menorah in, the window so that it shines out into public. But you still got to think that it was some of risk, a feeling of vulnerability for the man who owned this menorah, who we know was a rabbi in the city of kiel to be so bold about it and to put it out there, to really mark himself as jewish. But lets turn to the holiday of christmas, because germany was and is a majority Christian Country by far. How did the nazis influence christmas . So the nazis wanted to put their stamp, their ideology on all aspects of life. Nazi germany. And this included christmas. So this was a time when they pushed even harder some of their antisemitic conspiracy theories. For instance, the idea that killed jesus, which with course we know is false, but they would push this more along with the ideas that commercializing christmas selling Christmas Trees in department stores, things shouldnt be doing. This was one side of the nazi christmas agenda, i guess youd say, and the other side was really to take on christian celebrations, things like that, and not to fire them. So one of the ones that i think is really interesting is the Christmas Markets. So here you can see a picture of propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels can see his swastika on his arm at a Christmas Market with his kids. And behind him is who we would call santa, who the germans might call saint nick. And this is obviously a propaganda image, right . Like showing the propaganda minister at, the Christmas Market where germans are usually drinking mulled wine, having shopping for gifts. Here, this is also a place where a nazi ism is present. And that even translated into the types of toys and Christmas Displays, nazi germany. Here you can see under a Christmas Tree a sailboat with a swastika flag and the base of the sailboat, a bunch of nazi soldiers or stormtroopers as of this Christmas Display and perhaps as a toy that was supposed be appealing to little kids in nazi germany. And just to be clear, as you said, this is under a Christmas Tree. You know, we might its a little difficult to get a sense of scale. This is something children to play with. And its the idea that their beloved holiday of christmas is completely with nazi toys and that they embody everything that is in germany. I think. Go ahead. One of the things that we have to remember about the nazi quotation of christmas they would do things like charity drives as to supposedly help the poor. But in fact theyre also course we know arresting people persecuting people, spreading antisemitism. So theres really hypocrisy to this nazi policy, to these nazi choices, to to take over the Christmas Market or make these toys. Absolutely. Kind of the shiny public face. The joyous part for those who are included. And then ugly, angry and underbelly of it. Absolutely. I want to pause for a moment and also share with you, lindsay, where people are joining us from today. And welcome viewers. Thank you for joining us from gastonia, north carolina. Brownsville, texas hollidaysburg, pennsylvania. And we are also so pleased to have internation viewers watching all the way germany, brazil, the United Kingdom and portugal. Thank you for being with us. So id like to return to your point about the hypocrisy and kind of the contradictory sides of what nazis were doing with christmas. They were, of course, at adapting, adopting much older, established rituals and ideas and repurposing them in service of their conception of the german people. But their definition of community at its was based on exclusion and racist hatred. And in the coming as germany begins World War Two by invading poland and proceeds to occupy almost every country europe, their influence would extend across the continent. So i want us to shift away from germany. Lindsey, and talk about millions european who are now going to find themselves, targets of persecution. In particular, we have a photograph of a jewish teenage girl named tamara lazar, son. She was from lithuania. And her story is of course, much more complicated than im going to be to tell you about today. But what we need to know here is that she and her family were forced to live in the calvino, which we are seeing photos of here, really brutal devastating and deadly place in lithuanian city of kovner, where were imprisoned for years in slaved as forced laborers starved to death and disease. Tamara kept diary while she was living in these horrible and id like us to listen to a passage in translation of her own words that she wrote on christmas eve, 1943. It is christmas eve. It is quiet. The earth is covered with a white. The stars down and smile as they see the earth. So dressed up yesterday. The snow fell as if for the holiday. As i go through the city, i look through every window and see the golden Christmas Tree of paradise. It is painful. They do not love their brothers themselves. They murder us. You rejoice in christ for the you do not keep commandments. So i think its really evocative to listen to tamara. Shes pointing a really emotionally devastating finger at exactly type of hypocrisy that you had just described, lindsey. The idea of love, your neighbor as yourself. The biblical. And that, in fact, people who celebrating christmas in their cozy homes even with whatever difficulties they have in wartime while a short walk away. Like tamara are being excluded, hunted and demonized. You just really get a sense of that betrayal and abandonment at holiday time. Id like us to shift now to western to occupied, german occupied western europe. Lindsey, can you tell us a story about a little jewish boy, really just a baby named norbert obstfeld, who took shelter with a Christian Family in belgium and while in hiding he celebrated christmas with his rescuers. Whats the background on this . So norbert, as you can see here, who is just so cute, i cant stand that hes so adorable. He was born into danger. Right he was born after nazis had already occupied western europe. And hes just a little baby. When his mother barely escapes a roundup and when his father, avraham, is arrested and taken away. So norbert and his mother, leah, are left on their own to try survive, to try to find a place of refuge. And leah is very resourceful and. Shes really doing everything that she can to save herself and her child. She first tries to find refuge with a coworker of her husband, but she is sexually harassed there and leaves. And another place she discovers bruises on young rebecca. So she leaves again. She tries to seek refuge from. A priest who says that he will denounce her if. She doesnt convert to christianity. And so in fall of 1942, shes really, you know, stressed, obviously, put it mildly. And she goes into a cafe in a small town and shes trying to get some milk for norbert. And she strikes up a conversation with the owner, a woman named yulia there, haga. And yulia is as taken. I am with norbert and gets milk makes a bed and eventually they asks if she can a room. Yulia recognize this this is a baby in trouble to take in more bear. But leah doesnt want to be separated from him. So yulia and her husband raymond agree that they will take in both leah and norbert. And here you can see raymond with his daughter, mona, whos seven years older than norbert. And then norbert sitting on his lap. And here is another photograph of norbert and leah during time in hiding. Theyre here with and yulia. And i think you can see just the fact that theyre in the pictures with them right there. Theres a real warmth to this relationship. These rescuers, the people, theyre helping. And again, these were people who are complete to each other. Before leah and her baby show up in the small town of kortrijk, im really struck by their incredible vulnerability and the precariousness of their situation when youre describing how she sexually abused norbert is physically abused by the priest trying to exploit them. So thank god they found the photographer. Really. And it has resonated with some of our viewers who are watching now. A woman named melodie writes in to say the couple who owned the restaurant were brave to take in the jewish mother and son. Thank god for loving people who care and take on other peoples at the risks of their own lives. And thank you, melodie, we are so glad that the story of the hugs, compassion and courage resonates with you. We obviously feel the same. Lindsay, could you give us a sense, though, of how fraught this decision actually was because the penalties for helping were not uniform across europe. In poland, for example it could mean death or deportation to a constant christian camp. But how big a risk . Yulia and raymond taking two to shelter two. So in german occupied belgium. It was certainly a risky decision. It could have meant arrest or deportation. So to concentration camp, i think norbert really puts it best. He says reflects later prison deportation. Execu option. Was it worth it to . Help a woman and her child . And for norbert and they were very lucky that they had a family answered yes, that it was worth it to them. And to be clear, they were not in physical hiding. Right. They werent, you know tucked away in a basement, a closet or something . Right. How did they live their lives or explain their presence . Right. They were there and they were essentially using false identities that had a different name, pretended to be christian and norbert. They presented norbert as a distant. He used julias maiden name and basically went about sort of in semipublic life, pretending to be christians. So theyre hiding in plain sight, more or less. Yes. And as a result of that, we actually do have a number of wartime pictures of them, like the ones you just showed us. But what are we looking at here . So here you can see norbert. And mona celebrating a christmas together. And whereas the younger one, obviously and mona is his surrogate, big sister in this case, you can see a Christmas Tree and a native, anything. And this was taken in 1943. So when they were very much still in danger. And here this photograph was taken at christmas 1944, after belgium had been liberated. And so theyre in a little bit less danger. Still, World War Two is ongoing and mona as well, again, with no better than we have an audience member named, rene, writing in to say we need type of compassion today. These people are fine examples to follow. And absolutely. Rene, i mean the fact they take their family portraits together with leah and norbert just shows how totally they open not only their their home, but also their hearts to the to the family. In the several years that norbert and leah lived with the varga family, as you mentioned, the little boy became especially close with their daughter, mona tell us a little bit about their lifelong bond. I just think this is one of the sweetest aspects of story. You know, there are a lot of kids that would have been very jealous that there is a new little baby around. You know, this big cuties, you know, getting lots of attention. But thats not how mona reacted. Mona really embraced the situation. You can see the two of them together. And november members that mona looks quite stern in this picture actually, because she saw herself as his protector. So she really took on this role. She even gave him a teddy bear, which you can see here. Mona and norbert later donated the teddy to the belgian Holocaust Memorial because theyre in a dozen here. You can see them together in their later years. So they stayed quite close. And i think its so special. They donated this bear together, something that really meant a lot to both of them right. That mona was giving and sharing and receiving. And he has described that he was sort of her living doll that would push him around right. In a adult baby carriage. Yes. Nor bear teddy bear all together. And monas toy. Yeah. So obviously a relationship that has been so meaningful not only to the child who had saved, also to the child who whose parents took him in and years later, the varga parents, julian, were recognized as righteous among the nations by israels Holocaust Memorial, yad vashem for, risking their lives to protect. We have a couple of audience that id like to field. Daniella and anne are both. If we know what happened to leahs husband abraham after he was arrested, and kristen is asking what happened after the war, did they survive . Do you want to answer, lindsay . Sure so, unfortunately, abraham did survive. He was deported. Auschwitz forced to perform forced labor. But ultimately killed. And they hoped, of course, nowhere. And leah safe because of their helga family in german occupied belgium. They had hoped that he would return, but never did. Leah remarried another survivor named male wood also lost his family during the holocaust and they stayed in belgium then or there and is still alive there, correct mm hmm. I believe thats correct, yes. So thats part of it. We have that story. So really, a lot. A lot loss also loss of of siblings. Very difficult to try to rebuild start again. Id like us to turn to a totally different type story, though, still on the theme of holiday celebrations. This one in a very unlikely place. And we know that even in most punishing conditions, places like ghettos or concentration camps, some who were imprisoned there reason to hope during the holidays. Its hard to imagine that someone would be able to think about anything other than food or daily survival. But lets get to know an extraordinary jewish teenager from poland who found the strength and courage to celebrate the jewish holiday of hanukkah while she was imprisoned in a forced camp. Who was gerda weisman . Where was she from . So gerda weisman, you can see here, was born in 1924. And bielski, poland to julius and juliana, and she had an older brother archery can see her family members here in these photographs and gerda describes her childhood really as idyllic ski trips really family life spending a lot of time with her older brother who she absolutely adored. But unfortunately of that comes to an end when the germans invade poland in september of 1939. And at the time, gerda was years old and. It really is an absolutely abrupt change for her, just like for many and others in poland. All of a sudden, the germans are occupied not only their country but actually their home. The vikings are forced to live in their basement. Theyre not even allowed to go into their backyard. Her fathers business is confiscated. Her brother is almost immediately taken away. And for gerda, this is really difficult here. You can see the two of them together. Gerda and our tour that he is gone from her life. This sort of big, loving brother, this important figure for her. And hes just gone. And after our choice forced to leave, she and her parents move into the blasko. Theyre, of course, forced to do this where they live in terrible conditions of overcrowding, very little food and. But despite all these hardships, at least gerda has the comfort of being together with. Her mother and father. But that, too, not last. Tell us what happened. So in 1942, the germans decided they were going to dismantle the bosco ghetto. First they take men away them, then theyre left with women, children, elderly, and they conduct a selection where they choose a few people for labor. Gerda is first inclined to go with her mother, but she sort of pulled out of this by a local official says, tells her that she is too young to die so gerda and her mother then are separated. And gerda eventually ends up at the broken high and forced labor camp where shes working in a textile mill with other young women who are about her age. And the conditions there are really very harsh. Yes, absolutely theres very little to eat and. One of the biggest problems is that tuberculosis is really rampant. So its a life and death situation there constantly. Yes. And the labor is quite difficult and demanding as well. So its remarkable to think that in that kind of situation and, you know, these are kids, i think you i have teenagers myself. Theyre in high school. Theyre are so mild. Its remarkable to think that gerda could think about anything else. Let alone, observe a holiday under these circumstances. But she did. So please describe to us how she called upon her creativity, along with some of her friends who are also in prison there to celebrate hanukkah in this forced labor camp. Yes, gert is really a marketable person who really, i think had this huge amount of imagination and, resilience, i would say. And so she talks about her time and both behind that there was german guard who was named traveler kugler, who was a bit more humane than you might expect to, even though she was a guard in the nazi system, chose to treat the prisoners under her control with a bit of humanity. And so for kugler of created an environment where maybe there was a little bit of room for these types of things for the holidays perhaps, and additionally the year that were talking about christmas and hanukkah coincided. So maybe everyone at the camps a little bit distracted by the holidays. And so gerda writes a play and she and her friend ilsa decide that theyre going to dress up as jewish grandmothers. They use some of the materials from the textile mill to make great wigs to make glasses. And they give out advice as jewish grandmothers in this play they put on and actually have testimony from gerda in, her own voice. Looking back decades later, reflecting on the message of, her hanukkah play, and how she and her friends found a way to light the traditional candles of that holiday. Lets have a listen. Someday we will live in a place where jewish grandmothers will be allowed to live and the jewish grandchildren will live. But best of all, to live in a place where the climate would be such that our children, grandchildren will not believe our of the past when we get to play, we also fashion a menorah out of our evening meal of potatoes. We cut it very carefully and we had sort of a dilemma. Should we try to. Of course, we had no candles, but then we thought even if we had candles, it would be more symbolic to sort of light the flame of hope within us. Really powerful, and also very consistent with the message of hanukkah, which at its heart is about a miracle of oil that should have only been sufficient to last one day, but instead lasts eight days. And here we, see these girls . Theyre not really young women yet sacrificing their physical sustenance, their food to use instead as a kind of emotional sustenance themselves. So an incredible, incredible story. Lindsay, we are hearing from a number of viewers who have either met gerda as, a man named jim, has written i was fortunate to meet gerda and her granddaughter when she spoke in new orleans and many other people are writing in to say that they saw speak met her at one of these events, read her book called all but my life, where there is a terrific documentary about her as well that won the best picture. Best documentary, oscar called one survivor remembers. And so gerda obviously devoted to education and she often said that her vivid imagination had helped her to block out some of the horrors and maintain her will to live for people who are not familiar with familiar with gerda weisman. Klein what would become of her and her family. So gerda not stay at high. She is sent to several other forced camps and. Then at the end of the war, as the germans are retreating on a death in the middle of winter, in the freezing cold, these young women are forced to march miles and miles long distances, nothing or very little to eat many, many prisoners reside on these death marches. Gerda as march ended up in a town called valerie in what is today the Czech Republic and or chechnya say and they are in a barn. Theyve been left essentially by their guards at this point after having forced on this march. And thats when two american soldiers appear. One of them speaks german, as does gerda. And he asks her essentially whats going on who they are. And so kind, so polite, so respectful that this interaction for gerda she says, was one of the best moments of her life. That it really restored her faith, humanity. And that soldier was a man named kurt klein, who you can see a photograph him here. And eventually, gerhard and kurt, they stay in touch, they write to each other, and eventually they marry in a really beautiful story. They get married. They then go on here. You can see them in paris. Their wedding. And they have three children and here you can see gerda with her children when their and then in her later years, then they have eight grandchildren and 18 great grandchild. And and gerda was able to meet all of them shortly before she passed away this past. So a happy ending to very difficult and hard story. Yeah, because gerda was the only survivor from her immediate family. Both of her parents killed and very she never actually found out what to her beloved older brother. He like so many, does not have a grave that you can visit or a sense. Its wonderful to see the family blossomed from so much loss and actually have a note from gerda. Jim just wrote in to say that hes watching now and thanking us for what he says are beautiful comments about his mom. Jim, easy to talk about your mother. I know lindsey. And i both had the pleasure of meeting her and she never took her good luck for granted and clearly embodied for the rest of her life this personal obligation to stand up to all forms of intolerance, hatred. We were so sad when she passed away this spring, but she lived to be 97 years old and as we see found some measure of joy and healing in you. Jim and others there. So, lindsey, any final thoughts . We close. You know, i think one of the things that so special for many of us about the story is, how open she was to sharing this with all of us and i think that same spirit, what you saw with the hanukkah story. Right, that this warmth of the holidays the ability of people like the hug a family norberg bear and gerda to still celebrate in the midst really horrifying succumbs is something thats inspiring. Well we are very grateful to have learned from you today. And lindsey, a viewer named shelly, writes to say so many unsung and righteous heroes. So thank you for introducing to them today. We also want to give a special personal thanks to knorr bear, norbert most upswept obstfeld, who actually am my producer has told me give us personal to share his family today and his story so thank you so much to you. Norbert in belgium we hope that these incredible stories, resilience, continue to resonate with all of you wherever youre watching and offer a meaningful, meaningful perspective on. The emotional power of annual holiday. Celebrate. Whether you are religious or not. And the hope they can offer on behalf of the museum, we wish and yours a very happy Holiday Season whatever your traditions and we look forward to seeing you again in the new year. Be safe. Be well. Bye