Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jeff 20240705 : vimarsana.com

Thank you for coming in. Appreciate it. On a rainy afternoon in santa fe, my name is richard eads. I do a well, first of all, im Program Director for the liberal progressive Radio Station here in town, kprc 1260 am one, two, three, seven fm. And of course just dreams of santa fe dot com. I also host a radio show every day or weekdays, 1 00 until 4 00. So that is that is who i am. You all know senator Jeff Bingaman. Cspan is here filming, and i dont. Does anybody know cspan . Do you know, dorothy, do you know when it air . Anybody know . Not yet. We dont know how we. Dont know yet. So i would assume you could watch the collected works facebook or the radio show. Well tell you when you will be made famous on cspan. Oh, its definitely absolutely, positively. You want to think like that works. If were arranging is for dorothy massey, whos in the back letting people in. Thank you, dorothy, to cecile worth for arranging as well all the events to, cspan for being here. Certainly. Thank you very much to, santa fe, for inviting us and allowing us to use your era facilities for this for this event today. Thank you very much. I want to thank them i want to recognize senators wife ann is here. And i believe your son john is here, along with. A granddaughter is here as well well. And johns wife, who welcome, all of you. Senator. Who shall we do it . Okay. Youve got the easy part here. You know your material and not so familiar with it. I do have a number, of course. Former United States senator Jeff Bingaman from new. 1983 to 2013. In the United States senate. What was it like making the transition from santa fe, new Mexico Attorney general of a little state of new mexico for four years . Your first week in the United States senate . Thats a thats a jump thats quite the step. Yeah, it it is a jump. And frankly. The the senate a very welcoming place in 1983. At least thats the way it appeared to me. We had you know, reagan was in his middle of his first term, tip oneill was speaker of the house howard baker was the republican leader in the republicans who were in the majority. I came to the senate and. Howard baker was the Majority Senate leader and robert seabird was the leader of the democrats. And frankly, my impression that all of those that i mentioned and most other members of congress had a sense of being part of the governing process. They sort of shared shared some responsibility for how the country was doing. And and and and worked at it. And lots of disagree means lots of lots of things to fight. But thats sort of the nature of congress, i think, is that theres a lot of things always to argue about, but but in general, it was, as i say, a welcoming kind of a place. And they were very gracious and welcoming me. Howard baker stood up on the floor there, and when there were five of us elected that year, five new senators and he went through a very gracious little introduction for each of us. And talked about who we were and how anxious he was to serve with us. So so that was the senate in 1983. The way i remember it, everyone says those were the days when when people could go have a drink, could go out together, could have a meal together, could get along together and be friends with people in the opposite party. And i think howard baker, you know, those of us who are old enough. Remember, howard baker was, kind of the essence of the republican gentleman was it was a it was a man who there to to to serve the country as was tip oneill, also a character in those days. But but also. Well known for being very, very friendly. Yeah. No, no, that was sure, sure. My impression and, you know, senator domenici was the other senator had been there ten years by the time i got there. And and he he was a ready to work with me on anything we could find to Work Together on. And and we disagreed on a lot, but we found some things to Work Together. Its a little different now. Congress, senator, youve probably noticed, might have been the impetus for the book. There are. A number of people in, mostly in the house, but i think one or two in the senate who were there for an entirely different reason. It would seem to me. It would seem that many of them are there for fame. Theyre very for an image. Theyre there for to to make a name for themselves and to just, you know, get on television a lot and be as outrageous as possible. Its very, very different. Well, it does look that way from a distance. Think here youve got a lot of people in the senate who decide when get there, theyre going to run for president and theyre looking for to to put themselves forward, particularly with constituencies that they they think they depend upon in order to get get the nomination and get elected president. So so their thats some of their focus. I mean, thats thats this isnt the first time in our history that that weve had that. But it was a lesson, say senator, to get elected president. Well, lets say that jack kennedy, of course. Lyndon johnson. Right. And that was probably in Barack Obamas capacity. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Barack obama. I served with barack for a few years before he went on to be president. How often did you entertain the thought . I did not entertain the thought. I, i it never occurred to me that. Not once. No, not really. You know, and there are all kinds of reasons why it was it would not have been a rational thought. Senator, your thoughts on what we all on thursday when the last public hearing of the january Six Committee with the video behind the scenes in the hallways that you wandered the offices that that that you occupied. By the way you probably know this. But i once said in your chair, you were nowhere to be seen. I was in your office and i could not resist. And you said ahead and i so i sat in your chair. I apologize right now when. You when did you see the video . How much of the video have you seen of what was going on that day and seen Chuck Schumer and nancy pelosi . And there was there was some fear, was some trepidation in, their eyes. What are your thoughts on seeing what happened . Well, i didnt see the whole thing. I obviously i you know, im im somewhat appalled. I think most americans somewhat appalled by the notion that that people in those positions, speaker of the house and majority leader there in the senate would would fearful for their own safety. And the safety of others there in the capitol capitol. Okay. The resolve by shown by those two leaders, shown by the speaker, shown by majority leader schumer speaking with the Vice President on the telephone, the resolve was the it gave me. I mean, in some ways, it gave me more hope that people that of strength. I, i asked the chief of staff to speaker pelosi, john lawrence, a week or so ago what was her superpower and. He said something about legislatively and i think we saw what her superpower was behind the scenes. Her strength was was it was evident to everyone. Yeah, no, no. Shes a very impressive woman. And and i think both she and and Chuck Schumer conducted themselves with dignity in the process. And you got us got us through it. I know that your book is on on quite some time before the all of these events but your also is kind of a lays out the path work how possibly we got to this to this point but let me ask you just one more thing about recent history, senator, if you dont mind your thoughts on maybe you knew in the senate or the house who were actually giving tours to some of the people who attacked president or to attacked the capitol . Well, as far as i know, in the senate was doing that, but im not sure that that you know, i. I dont know. I cant giving tours myself but time and i certainly didnt knowingly give any tours to anyone who was planning to attack the capitol. Yeah, good. Its good to know. Yeah, that gives me that gives me some hope and yes. Wanted to get that on the record. Okay. Duly noted. As you as you note in your book, by the way, the book is called breakdown for congress in crisis point, where it gives senator Jeff Bingaman that the divisions did not start in 2016. You lay out what you think some of the some of the root causes some of the early signs that these divisions were going grow more extreme. Can you give us some of your thoughts about what was happening maybe when you were a freshman new new to the senate and along the way. Well, i think when i became concerned about sort of the direction of things there in the congress was when after republicans regained the house in in 95, 1995. And and Newt Gingrich became the speaker. Oh, we got into this this mode of of shutdown, shutting down the government. And i talk about it extensively in the book. But that seemed to me a real break with with the way things had been done in the previous 12 years that i had been there. The idea that, you know, always before if you if you got disagreements between the white house and the congress about funding levels, about programs, about whatever you are and cant get appropriations done, the time theyre supposed to be done, the Appropriations Bills are all supposed to be done by the 1st of october. If you cant do that, then you pass a short term socalled continuing resolution, which just says, well the funding where it is until we work this out and figure out what were going to do next. Well, that had been the that was the norm. That was the way congress worked. And in 95, newt had a very different idea. And he was very open about it and very explicit. And it was great quote and here which which i could. Yeah let me just read you this quote. Its i think it i thought it was pretty startling. What i when i first saw this. This is a quote think it was in the wall street journal. He said, if youre going to operate with his that is the president s veto being the ultimate trump, then you have to operate within a very narrow range of change. You had to find a trump to match his trump and the right not to pass money is the only trump thats that is equally strong. So so then to implement that that approach he decided not to enact money bills that that summer that first in november. I think we had a shutdown of five or six days and november of 95. And then he came back in in december and again. Refused to to bring up and pass a continuing resolution or pass a money bill to keep the funded. And i think there that second one was 21 days that ran into the next year and and the idea, of course was to make president clinton buckle to their demands about funding levels and programs and. He didnt buckle. And went on to be reelected with a good margin and so so they sort of backed off of it for a little while. But then again, when the next democrat president came into office, when barack obama came into office, they were back again saying, okay, lets threatening shutdowns of the government and actually doing shutdowns of the government. And then, of course, the when trump became president , he figured, whats good for, the goose is good for the gander. So he decided to that he would shut down the government. And i mentioned to you once before that he he holds the indoor record for having shut down the government for 34 days that was because he couldnt get congress to appropriate the money to build the border wall. And he said the way to do that now is to is to shut down the government and thatll put Pressure Congress to to buckle under. In fact congress didnt buckle under, but he himself decided that maybe he should go ahead, sign a money bill on a continuing appropriation because the air Traffic Controllers announced that they were going to have to start delaying flights out of laguardia because people werent coming to work. And and people were calling in sick and they couldnt staff the the various air Traffic Centers around the country and all of this goes back to Newt Gingrich. Did he come congress with that intention, do you think, or do you think that was his whole purpose . Did he try and successfully became of the house with that intention is to lead that kind of revolution the contract with america, the contract on america, whatever you want to call it. We did he have a long term game plan in effect, because it seems like hes still at it and hes been called a subpoena for his his role in the insurrection as well. Well, i think he clearly wanted to bring about of a revolution and and and he felt these various tactics that he used were would get him where he wanted to be. And and one of the key ones was being willing confront the president by shutting the government. Correct me if im wrong, senator, but you say later in the book that a president should never negotiate on the should never negotiate to hold firm absolutely hold firm that fails and then you have, you know, plan b and plan c never negotiate in the beginning. Correct . Well, thats my view, particularly the issue that think president s cant really get drawn into negotiating on is this business of of the the National Debt. I mean, that was another one. And this one was john boehner. And Mitch Mcconnell, really, who are the two that led the attack in in in 2012,. 7 to 2 threatened default on the debt and that of course with president obama in the white house and and the first time they did that he threatened to default the debt. President obama i think, got bad advice and and did negotiate and we wound up enacting what was called the budget act, which was a bunch of arbitrary limits on spending, didnt didnt make much sense, particularly at that time in our economic history, because the country needed the stimulus. We hadnt yet fully recovered from the 2008 2009 recession. But the second time that they tried to to threaten default on the debt, he refused to negotiate it, which was very much to his credit and and backed down, which which was a good thing, obviously, they should have backed down the the whole business of the debt ceiling is very mishandled. Understood, in my opinion and it is an issue that is very much demagogues i mean the National Debt is bigger than its ever been because Congress Wants to spend money and congress doesnt want to raise the needed to pay for the things that theyre spending on. And and so thats thats sort of built into the system. But this debt limit, this National Debt ceiling is is used as as more of a political cudgel to to attack people and to try to claim that. No, no, the reason weve got a debt is because someone to increase the debt ceiling. Well the debt ceiling has to be increased. If youre if youre not raising the money you need to cover things that you offer, youve agreed to pay for it. And yet the United States is only one of two countries that has that problem, correct . Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, its a selfinflicted wound. I mean, this was adopted. We sort of set this this little system up so that everyone, you know, every every few months now, it seems congress to come along and pass a bill, president has to sign it to increase debt ceiling. Well, thats crazy. Frankly, they are. They are. How do we get out of that . How we get well, the way we the only the only practical way to do it is to make an exception to the filibuster rule in the senate, even if you even if you youre going to have a filibuster say that you cannot filibuster an increase thats in debt ceiling because thats the real threat like it came up this year. The about the time that i finished writing this book the there was another sort of threat and its a threat to filibuster. And to you know, Chuck Schumer was very clear that he did not expect any republicans to vote to increase the debt ceiling. So theres 50 votes off the table. He didnt have access to. All he wanted. Was that not filibuster the efforts of the democrats to raise the debt ceiling because it had to be raised and and so if you make an exception to the filibuster rule and say, okay, in the future, Neither Party can filibuster the efforts of the other party to raise the debt ceiling. Thatll help solve a lot of it. Sure. Jim bingaman you the book the book is about how we how how congress devolved descended into this morass into this what now is a fairly functional body. One of three coequal unfortunately. One of the other two is is bordering on as well. You also outline ways steps where Congress Steps that congress can take. One is the filibuster. One is one is the debt. You have eight worthy efforts. Can you kind of show us or tell some of those eight worthy efforts that they need to take to overcome where we are now . And are you hopeful . Are you optimistic . I mean, there are days when i am when i see i dont see any hope the congress is going to is ever going to get out of this cycle. Well, im not as pessimistic as you are. I think there are ways to get out of it, but its its going to be a long effort, a long, long term effort. Whats a worthy step . Well, these were the efforts that ive discussed in here really are more history. I talked about the Different Things that we tried to during the 30 years i was there in the senate and things that got in the way, the impediments i discussed five impediment is that that got in the way us doing what we needed do or should have done in some of these areas. Take Climate Change for an example, congress has not even yet, even though weve passed a significant bill, Congress Passed a significant bill this fall, which i compliment. Senator schumer, particularly for for getting enacted the senate. But we still a country havent done what we need to do to deal with Climate Change and. A lot of that is because of special interest lobbying. Special interest, special. Who worked very hard to raise question about the science for long time, once helped. They had sort run that string out and couldnt make more progress on that they they basically got to where they were just support candidates who would oppose any bold action by the federal government to deal with with change. And accordingly we we were not able to pass a cap and trade bill through the congress. We were not able pass a clean energy or Clean Electricity bill. And or any kind of a tax on on energy from fossil fuels. So what we what they that they passed this was good. It was it was increased for people to do what they should do. But it was very a package of carrots with with very few sticks and i hope it gets the job done. I mean, its not going to get the whole job done. I think everyone acknowledges that but it is it was a long time in coming. I mean, we had testimony in the Energy Committee that i was sitting on. 1988 saying, you know, this is here. Its its real. Youve got to you and congress have to have to get on with it. James hansen was the chief witness, dr. Yeah, ill ask you about that period then, because you were chair of the Energy Committee then, correct . Not then, but i was on the committee and then i became chair later. Senator domenici chair no, but then i think maybe been a johnston from from louisiana was was a chair back in the eighties. The inability to really get substantial, comprehensive, necessary Energy Legislation out of congress in those days, was it because of special interests . We down the road at the at the time because special interests in into that that fracking was way to go and weve seen since then that fracking does produce a lot of Energy Fracking does produce a lot of revenue. The state of new mexico in the permian basin. But fracking also has a lot of drawbacks. Were there mistakes made there . Were there i dont know. With the woods especially, were the special interest strong in those days when when debating and hashing out Energy Policy that that we decided that we had to we had to produce as much energy as possible at, all costs. Well, i think clearly the special interests were too strong in those days, just like they are today. And but but in fact i think congress was not even focused on the issue of Climate Change to a great extent, back in the about the price of oil. Yeah, it was more about the price of oil you know the general wasnt focused on on Climate Change their representatives in congress were not focused on Climate Change they were worried about you know, whats it going to cost me to fill up my tank . And theyre still worried that i understand the plea. But, you know, we havent dealt with either. Problem two to effectively we have become a very oh 00a much larger oil producer than than was case then we were very dependent on foreign back when when first joined the Energy Committee and and now of course were were i believe were the Worlds Largest producer of oil. And it and and here we still not with really sound effective timely policy around Climate Change to our detriment were and were seeing the tipping points year month after month. I mean it is it is accelerating and getting worse. Yeah no ive it in the ground is not Something Congress is going to take up anytime. No no i dont and im not sure, you know, i theres a lot of a lot of on both sides of that. But but i dont think that the solution Climate Change is hard to be unrealistic about the fact that were dependent upon all these other Sources Energy right now. I think you know we need to accelerate our transition to to nonpolluting sources other than rearranging using the filibuster times, not using the green, not use the filibuster, things like the debt ceiling, other changes that congress can make as a body, both as a body. You mentioned something called the mcconnell mechanism. Is that. Well thats a that a i discussed in terms of a way to deal with the debt ceiling problem because back when we had the crisis the debt ceiling crisis in 2011. Senator proposed just for a one time deal. He said, lets lets go ahead and raise the debt ceiling. But will will will do it in a way where the president will send us notice. He wants to raise the debt ceiling if after 15 days, congress has not passed something to keep him from it, then he can do it. That was a enlightened piece of legislation. My opinion. Unfortunately, it was just a one time deal. It has long since been forgotten, but i would that that would be a great solution. The problem of of recurring crises related the debt ceiling 15 days to come up with an alternative 15 days to come up with a plan otherwise that becomes the that becomes the law right we talk about special interests what would necessary to repeal citizens. Well a constitutional amendment i mean, Citizens United is a supreme decision that, interprets the constitution in a that i think is is contrary to the Public Interest in that its opens up the floodgates for these vast amounts of money coming into the political system thats so so you to do a constitutional amendment and and the prospects getting that done are pretty nil. The. Members are congress both houses you spend several pages talking about suggestions for members what would what are the suggestion what things should members do to become better servants of the people and think thats your point. Well, i start with the proposition, which i believe that most people who run to to be in the congress have in mind trying to find a way to serve the Public Interests, or at least thats one of their motivations. There are a lot of others, you know, its an ego trip. Theres kinds of other reasons that people want to run for office. But. One of the motivations is they want serve the Public Interest and i think that, you know, each member has to sort of decide to what extent hes going to actually try to work on solving, identifying National Problems that need the attention of congress and work across party lines. Because really, the way were at least the way were structured today, youve got to get bipartisan support to, do most of these things to really make progress. I mean, there are some exceptions. You know, we passed the Affordable Care act without any bipartisan support, which was a great accomplishment at the time. But most major legislative has to have bipartisan support and i think if individual members recognize that, theyve got to start working across across the aisle, theyve got to find people of the other party who also concerned about the problem they want to address. And who are willing to work with them to solve it. Though that issue gets you started down the road to to having a Better Congress in my view. Do senators do do of the members of the house come in knowing they dont know everything, knowing they dont know enough, knowing they dont know a lot. They may have specific areas of expertise. Do come in realizing the importance staff in congress. Well i dont know think probably you had a great staff. Yeah, we did yeah i very fortunate that we had great, great people for us and and you know, i think its its like general populace. Some folks, they know it all some some they dont know it all. And the ones that realize they dont know at all in my view become the better legislators because, you know, everythings changing so fast and the issues that come up for consideration in congress are changing all the time. And, you know, youre constantly trying to catch up with get enough information to make intelligent decision on on all the issues that youre being presented with, even from a little state like new mexico. And you and senator were both powerful members of the United States senate. You brought a lot to new mexico. You brought a lot of obviously notoriety, a lot of attention to the state. You brought a lot of money with the National Laboratories to the state of new mexico. Even with a little state like new mexico. How did you feel heard . Did you feel that that the the Current System that we have with the Electoral College and and Current System we have in congress with the 100 senators and all that and state represented, do you feel a small portion like new mexico has a fair shot . Oh, i thought we had a very fair shot. Yeah i thought new mexico was, you know, well represented. Yeah, i think i think i think thats case. And weve got good people representing us now. So so i good about that you one of the very few senators think ive misquoted you in the past. Senator, in saying you were probably smaller than there actually was, who spoke up, argued against the war in iraq. Your thoughts on that now . Well, i wish more people had really focused on the that were being presented at that time. I think i think there are a lot of people in congress who unfortunately looked at the polls and, the president president bush at that time, george w bush, he had he had done a marvelous job of of up public support for the idea of invading iraq and post 911. Yeah. Yeah. You know and it was follow on to 911 although there was very little connection in a logical between the two. Yeah but they kept they kept that the myth of that connection going. Yeah they did, they came up the help of two of our legislators one congresswoman and one the United States senator. Yeah. Yeah. Any rate they, you know, in my view, facts were pretty clear and in congress generally knew that that the facts did not justify an invasion of iraq, but they didnt want to vote against their constituents, didnt want to vote against the war at. The polls were dictating and, you know, frankly, im not sure, regardless of how congress had voted, whether we would have had had that invasion, i think, you know, the whole idea of Getting Congress and, i think, was more a political thing on the part of the administration in deciding that they wanted as much cover as they could get. They were going to invade and, you know, if they could get some cover the congress, fine. You know, one of the things you bring up, one of the impediments for congress to to be effective is or one of the things you suggest not to get into long protract did unnecessary wars. Yeah yeah. No and that was one. Yeah we we you know that was terrible misstep. I think i make clear in this book that during the 30 years i was there that was the Foreign Policy blunder. Im aware of that our administration or that our country made. And i still that way out other steps you would like to see Congress Take other steps that you would suggest to your friends who are still in and the United States senate ways that we can heal this country, heal the divide, heal the division and start to make progress because. Right now, i think a lot of people think i dont know if if you feel the same way or not that were headed down a darker path. Well, i think there a lot of things, some which i dont talk about in the book that that i think would would improve the functioning of congress because because they would make it more difficult for the extreme elements. To succeed in these campaigns. And, you know, i think that rank Choice Voting that to that were doing here in santa fe right now i think and theyre doing up in alaska this year i think thats thats model that we need that we need to see that new mexico and alaska. Yeah right well there are other places too. Im sure but but the two ive ive focused on are two and i think its worked and i think its. The whole idea of open primaries i think is one that needs to be pursued so that so that people who are running for office, that theyre going to have to be answerable to everybody that they represent, not just to one sliver of the of the body politic. How often do you on your glasses of. A prosecutor going back to your four years as attorney general . How long how often do you ever look at the preponderance of evidence being put forth by the january Six Committee being put forth by a state attorney general, being put forth by is by states and so its like the state of georgia. How often do you put on your your glasses say, oh, my god, this is this is a slammed dunk. I could get a conviction today. Well, i always do. You know, im not a i dont myself into thinking i could get a conviction, but i think i think theres some strong evidence thats obviously. The department of justice has got some difficult questions to to wrestle with in the in the next months. Senator, i think we should take some questions, run the course of questions i have for you. Id like to give you an opportunity, because obviously leave things out the big gaps and, what you would like to talk about before, take questions, things that you want to bring up that that you wrote about and break down. Well, i think, you know, there was an article in the new york yesterday, carl hulse wrote a an about several of the senior members, particularly on the side in the senate who are retiring and and the you know, the the the reasons the accumulation of reasons why they dont really find it makes sense to stay there in the senate for them. And its similar to the to some of the discussion ive got here under these five impediments. I mean, different the pressures from the media, the pressures from special interests, the pressures from from socalled in the case of the republicans, their base. All of those are formidable factors. I you know, and in some ways i think we have made has made the job of being a u. S. Senator or a Congress Person a much more difficult in recent years. And i commend those who are who are still trying to do it. And there are a lot of good people in the in the congress are trying very hard under difficult to make progress for the country. But its its not easy. How strenuous is it . How much of a grind is it when you have your duties . The states senator, when you have your duties, when you go back home, when you have you know you know all of the fundraising duties, all of the all of your commitments to. Is it getting more difficult . How difficult was it for you . Over five terms as the United States senate . Well, frankly, it wasnt as difficult for me as i think it is today for a lot of people, because you know, in new mexico, you were a small state. No, you know, people in the state are low. You know, by the time i was in my fifth term, i felt pretty comfortable. Pretty comfortable. Yeah. You know, i felt pretty good. After you beat Harrison Schmitt in the first round, the former astronaut. Well yeah, but who did you run against the second term . Second term . Nobody was third term. Nobody. Fourth term, nobody no, no, no. There were some real candidates in there, bill valentine, i think, was the second. Well, i mean, you you i dont remember him. Yeah, no, no, i do. He was in the state senate. He was bill there capable and and colin mcmillan, who was republican leader here in our state senate, he he ran against me in 94, and that was the most campaign that i other ten points i know i beat him by. Yeah. Eight or ten or Something Like that. Okay. So it wasnt it wouldnt. So a senator from california. Senator new york, a senator from michigan. Just the absolute strain on their. Oh, yeah, he had an energy. I mean its well ill tell you the part that that blows my mind is the amount of money that these candidates have raise to run in these large states with all of these markets. I mean, you know, its its not unusual 50 million for a a Senate Campaign is is not that unusual. These in some of these states. Oh, i never i dont think we spent more than two and a half, 3 million. Who do you prefer, heinrich or ben lujan . I bought good men. Theyre both good. Then theyre hard workers. Theyre both working hard. Yeah. And very, very committed to their constituents. I agree with. I think were just incredibly fortunate. Have senator luann in northern new mexico because mean this is his home he knows everything he needs to know about northern new mexico sir thank, you appreciate it. Cha cha. Do you want to take some questions . You want to take some questions . Okay. All right. Cecile, there you are. Hi, jeff. Is there. Hey, how are you . Good. He used to work for me, so ive got a plant here. The audience. Smile. Are you a fluffy question . I wanted to say it was an honor working for you for almost ten years, jeff. Right oh, i was going to ask who were favorite senators to with in the senate when you first started out. Well, its its hard to single out people mean, you know, some of them were people id been reading about my life. John glenn was, you know, had an office near us in, the Hart Building and, you know, it was just sort of an honor to to get to know john glenn a little bit and, you know, walk from the house. Hart building over to the capitol to vote with him. He always walked outside. He care what the weather was. He never he never went down and took a train. He always walked outside. And i every i could, i would try to do the same thing. And so we had a good, Good Opportunity to get acquainted. And so thats one there are lots of others that you know that from new york. I mean, he was a genuine not only was a very senator, but he was a intellectual and know he was hed be writing books all the time. Oh, well, the rest of us were. Were trying to keep up with our hearings and he somehow or other could do it all. And he always had had great insights as to the issues were coming up in the senate. Questions. Senator snowe, your thoughts are on congressional term limits. Well my own view on it is that it would be appropriate to to say that after a certain age, people run again, that that and i dont know what the right age is. It probably gets a little higher all the time. Maybe five, maybe maybe 80. You know. But at some point, i think a persons ability to do the job begins to deteriorate and and i think that some type of and thats a form of a term limit but under under the constitution you can you know you can start serving as a young a young person like joe biden did. And you can provide a lot of good service the country for a great many years. And i wouldnt want to see some arbitrary 20, 20 year or ten year limit put that. Senator. Some of the same issues are in Congress Still on immigration like the dream act certainly you were there. Im wondering what hopes you have for any significant Immigration Reform legislation actually get passed and signed. Well thats real tough issue because it is an easy issue to demagogue and. You know, in many ways, the best chance we had for doing something there was when we had a republican president , george w bush, who believe we needed to reform the immigration laws and did propose a legislation to accomplish that. But, you know, its very difficult for a democratic president to to get the votes necessary to get that done. And the other big problem with immigration is that how we package things in these very ways so that immigration, the way its now dealt with and considered in congress, this it includes all of these different issues. The dream act, you mentioned, it includes agricultural workers. What are we going to do with them . It includes. Well, what are we going to do with folks who are undocumented and have lived here a long time in the United States. What are we going to do about the wall on the border . You know, what are we going to do . Skilled workers, Skilled Workforce coming in that are what . H. H h2b visas. You know, all of that is and you try to put that in the package and get it through the congress and someones going to to virtually everything in the package so if if the leaders of Congress Really wanted to the immigration laws, they ought to try break that into individual and set out a schedule for considering the different pieces and bring them up separate for consideration. Good afternoon, senator. And cliff. Cliff re santa fe. Im right here in the aisle here. How are you . Im doing great. Thank you, senator. Thanks for being here and thanks for writing your book. I heard you talk about working across the aisle and putting the country over party. Two of your former colleagues intrigued me a great deal in terms of contrast senator Mitch Mcconnell and john mccain, the late senator mccain. Could you talk about how they related to you and to the senate and why there is such a contrast, it seems to me, in how they presented themselves as members of the senate . Well, i dont claim to have had close working relationship with Mitch Mcconnell. He he has been very effective in gaining the support of the republican senators for the leadership that he there. But to my mind, hes hes focused on. As much republican as he possibly can. There there in the senate. John mccain was also a very partizan on some things, but i think was was really more focused on issues than than on party and, you know, i say in the book that i, i believe his vote to vote against the of the Affordable Care was a statesman like type vote and had added greatly to his legacy. What was your relationship with senator when it came to public lands specifically in the west . Well, we we had our disagreements and but we tried to work them out. And in some cases, we able to well he he of course you had particular views on some of the public land issues that were going in arizona and. Those would come before the Energy Natural Resources Committee that i was chairing. And so we would i had to oppose him on several things that he wanted to do. But as i say we tried to find Common Ground in some, we were able to id love to ask you about water, but any more questions, richard sorry. We actually have to right now. I know theres a lot of questions from the audience, but we dont have much more time. And so what i want to do say is thank you all for coming here. This thank you for your support of collected works all the time. And i just want to thank richard for taking this on. Of course, as our moderator. And thank you, senator bingaman, your very generous time this. And lastly we do have pristine books. Senator has pristine books for sale out in the lobby. If you do want him to inscribe anything he has offered to come to the store this week. So if you could give your name and whatever inscription youd like in the book to us outside, hell come in, sign it. Well call you and you can come pick it up at the. So thank you all very for coming and thank you for being here this afternoon