Transcripts For CSPAN2 Michigan 20240705 : vimarsana.com

Jocelyn benson talks about democracy and Election Integrity and efforts to remove donald trump from the 2024 president about. This is part of the association of american loss collapse annual meeting in washington dc. It is about an hour and 15 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] all right, good morning, everybody. Welcome to our session today, our president s conversation we are going to be having, grateful to have so many folks gathered in washington for this annual meeting. So glad to have so many colleagues front and center. Love that. I am really glad to have Jocelyn Benson, the 43rd secretary of state of michigan here to talk with us today. Shes not just secretary of state of michigan but our colleague and friend of ours for so long and in her role as secretary of state, she certainly a leader in insuring elections are secure and accessible. And shes tasked in the job overseeing the election. The last two, 2020, and 2022 elections saw a record turnout and were secure elections she got national recognition, the john f. Kennedy profile in courage award and citizens metal. She also has implemented new strategies to ensure Voting Rights for all eligible michiganders prior to 2020, absentee voting is one of those things, she has overseen 250 audits to ensure the integrity and accuracy of the elections. As secretary of state she has tried to make sure not only is it a function of government but try to make sure that it is one that functions in a way that serves customers who are citizens of michigan so she has made sure she has had Available Online services, 160 cell service stations around the state, so anyways shes been innovative and that is wonderful to make sure she brings our democracy to the people and to make it accessible as possible. So she has this distinguished life as secretary of state but of course she is a lawyer, harvard law graduate and law professor and Law School Dean so as i mentioned, a bit of a homecoming, really wonderful when we saw each other a few minutes ago to get started for the day and she said she was glad to be back at the annual meeting. She served as dean at Wayne State University law school in detroit, at age 36, extraordinarily young age, youngest woman in us history in a top accredited law school. Shes one of us, somebody i knew in our own joint election law as well and just had such an extraordinary career which we have our programs so we can read more about her and i am quite honored to be able to welcome back to the als our colleague and secretary of state of michigan, lets give a welcome to Jocelyn Benson. Its very surreal. When i was a young law professor this was a big show to be on a panel was such a big deal. Now you get to be on the biggest panel. It is truly our honor. So what we are going to do here just for the audience information, run through a bunch of questions i will have. We also will try to get audience questions and if you have one i think we would like you to raise your hand and we will come around it have cards and you can write your question on a card and we will have folks gather so just raise your hand if you want one and when done, raise the card up and someone will gather it. We are asking you to do that in the first 30 minutes so please if you could do that we would very much appreciate it so we can process them and get through if we have time. So let me jump into my questions first. Lets start with how did you decide to become a lawyer in the first place. Lets go back to the origin story. What was the younger Jocelyn Benson thinking about the path of her life and why becoming a lawyer . Its honor to be here and wonderful to be with my colleagues again. It is really gratifying and means a lot to be here, thank you for the opportunity and my parents were specialeducation teachers so i started anna young age as a daughter of two educators, seeing education as the vocation and similarly seeing a lot of things wrong in the world and hearing about it from my parents not in a political way but the perspective of two people trying to make sure their kids that they taught had access to quality education, trying to understand why rules were made in such a way to create this equity for their students. I was 7 or 8 years old going to classes, it was very formative for me and through all of that, to understand, asking a lot of why, how things worked, attorneys are the centerpiece of ensuring the rules we have as a society in our constitution play out the way that they should, the ideals we all share as americans in society, through that, had an interest in the law and i went to college at wellesley and studied political science, really seeing the law as the centerpiece of everything we do and starting my career at southern poverty law send a right out of college as an investigative journalist seeing the power of the law to meet justice and the mode most potent tool we have for ensuring that our country and our society lived up to its ideals of equity and justice for all, grew in me a love for the law and desire to understand it, to know it, i didnt necessarily want to practice it but i know i want today law degree and the tool to be part of creating a better world, one in which folks like my parents and so many others would have equal opportunity to prosper. So then you become a lawyer, you have this interest in bettering society, helping us live up to our ideals, what took you from that point to becoming an election law scholar, professor, dean . Three things. Chris headley, my mentor at harvard who i started working for as a Research Assistant day one, right at the time, 2,000 one, right after the 2000 election which was the second thing, seeing in my view the failure of the Election Administration to, i think ensure the will of the people was fully realized, seeing florida play out the way it was, watching bush versus gore play out the way did, being in england that the marshall scholar at the time, that and trying to explain to folks from all over the world i was studying with, why this was happening in america in november 2000. That was very formative for me and seeing the law, and Election Administrators, insuring the will of the people, the will of the voters come to fruition or perhaps impeding that is in my view was the case then and one last thing after that. After i went to law school and began working on help america vote act with professor hadley at the time, later, dean hadley at berkeley. I started to see how, how much lawyers played a role in really ensuring things were fixed, things were improved through passage of the Health America vote act and working for npr my first summer in law school. I was are in turn and a formative experience but really seeing coverage of the Supreme Court and spending a lot of time at the us Supreme Court, seeing it in the coverage of it, surrounding the most powerful institution we have in our country and all of that together made me see that if we are going to focus on making sure the rules are fair you have to focus on our location of power in our country is allocated fairly with the principles of democracy and equity and inclusion and every one, one person one vote is a reality for everyone, all of that tied up in making sure the law works well and people enforce the law and they are all on the same page and last thing i will say, what to me was the heart of all that. That was the head part but the heart came from being in selma, alabama starting my career in montgomery, alabama and it was really spending time in selma. I watched eyes on the prize, i would go on my own to walk across the bridge, and stand were john lewis and others stood in march 1965, instilled with a sense of responsibility to act ask myself would i be someone . I wanted to be someone who stood in that bridge in march of 1965 and face down the violence to make sure the promise of one person one vote was a reality and to look for where the foot of the bridge is today in the modern era and try to be there and all of that in that moment, came down to becoming an election lawyer and as a way of ensuring the promise of the Civil Rights Movement was fully realized. Reporter as professor or dean, what was the most enjoyable part of your life as a professor and or dean . I love working with the professors, fighting for the law school within the university system, fighting for better budgets, fighting for better scholarships for students, reconnecting our alums to the institution which was great pathway for our students to become who they wanted to be but all that was tied up in trying to ensure a Legal Education was one that didnt narrow opportunities for students but created more, meaning my Legal Education was very much felt like i had to be an attorney, i had to practice and there were other things i could do but the current was putting me in one direction. What i felt a lot of pride in working to do was be at state law school 10 years ago, trying to broaden that and define our work as creating the next gen sugar generation of that gets for justice however students chose to use that degree and similarly broadening access to the law school not just to young people wanting to earn a law degree or others in a career but journalists and others, many of the ways in which law schools have evolved since then opening our doors more broadly to welcome other professions in and have a lot of tools for enhancing whatever issue that you do and whether it is in journalism or policymaking as a lawyer. Host you were enjoying that life, building institutions, helping train the next generation but you decide to change your professional life when you decide to run for office. What was that decision like for you . The Common Thread through my entire career, working in npr or as a dean or teaching or writing or working in sports, i also did for a few years running a nonprofit, the Common Thread was access to government and access to democracy and voting and rooted in that time i spent in selma. For me, i realized there were a lot of ways one person could have an impact on making sure everyone had a vote and believe in their voice and their vote and ensuring everyone has a seat at the table for governing decisions but i felt i often say i felt i could either sue my way to equality or i could simply instead of trying to compel Election Administrators through the law to do the right thing is i felt at the time, i could just run and be an election administrator and do the job and try to do it right so i pushed it and before that as a legal academic what i wrote a book on all of this, went around the country, interviewed every secretary of state in 2008 and tried to tell their story, democrats and republicans, about how important these jobs were, to communicate to voters, this job matters and i was so inspired by talking with so many people who later became my colleagues but also wanted to do the job and running for office was a means to getting there but it wasnt necessarily what i wanted to do or what i aspired to do but that was a means to which i could do this job, then why not see if i could be successful and the other piece of that as i entered, first ran into thousand 10 when i entered the arena at that point i looked at is as i knew what the secretary of state should do, knew how to do the job so if iran is a candidate and pushed whoever was going to win to take this job seriously, to fight for it, to adopt some ideas, i would be making a difference so what happened was i went around the state of michigan, talked to everyone i could in every one of our counties, raised a lot more money than people thought i would and no one else got in and i got the Party Nomination in 2010, ultimately lost in the general but i did become the highest democratic votegetter that year, and it was like my 2018 it was open again iran. Both parties liked to have it already. So i was able to wage a Strong Campaign in 2018. Host so youve got the job, spent a lot of time trying to get the job like you said. Had one tryout and then you got it. Tell us a little about the job and how that fits in with your own sense of how you are defending and protecting and building our democracy . My colleagues at wayne state, one of them told me when i was running in 2018, this is an anthropological experiment, go into going to this other environment and see what it is like and those words stuck with me. I dont think i think i dont think he meant the words to stick with me as long as they did but i tell my team all the time, a team of lawyers and former students and people who are Mission Driven, not political, we are in politics, not of it. Especially in this moment of not being political or being a politician as much as possible. That started by losing the first time i ran, afraid of doing the right thing and then spending time at wayne state, running an institution that is Mission Driven and seek to make change. That is the political arena as i found a lot of reasons going into a longer conversation, the bottom line is ive been intentional through my time as secretary and in six or six years of not doing what is politics as my mentor judge damon keith advised me to do, just doing what is right and do the most right every day. That is hard, but find a lot of courage and strength by surrounding yourself with people who even when the political arena becomes, pressures you to do the right thing, surround yourself with a team that reinforces your mission and that makes it easier to do it but it is still a very blood he arena not just on the National Scale which people see with donald trump and the noise of the last several years around democracy but the pettiness of politics is demoralizing at times. Not to belabor the point but when it comes to policies about making i got in there thinking you just present the data and the fact and im sure we can do the political noise outside but when we get into the hearing room or lawmaking room we will all kind of understand the right thing to do, objectively when the data and facts point a certain direction we would move in that direction and seeing the ways in which data is ignored in politics, when it comes to policymaking is really discouraging because im trying to fight for people to believe in the system and you see lawmakers not do what is right to put it mildly, choose politics over what is right, and still be successful and they are so successful and it is very discouraging but when you are on the front lines of a battle you see it is not necessarily all roses all the time. Host in the job itself, what are some of the nuts and bolts things youre most proud of doing, trying to do the facts more than the politics of it . Iran through a couple things. What has gotten you really excited on the ground that makes a difference for michigan . Im the chief election officer but also cheap Motor Vehicle officer which means i run the dmv, making me very popular. When i came into office, we have 130 branches all around the state that there had been an increase in the number of people driving on our roads but a decrease in the number of offices leading to 5 to 8 hour waits, sort of typical of the dmv, so as a good academic would do i started in my first 100 days visiting every single one of the offices which again, the political people are like no one cares if you do that, dont do that, how else will i know . Cant solve a problem if you dont have the data. So i went to every single office, talked to people about what we needed to change so covid hit and we were able to reduce or eliminate the wait times entirely from every single one of our offices to grand rapids by moving more transactions outside the office and creating a system where people schedule their visit ahead of time if they chose giving us more notice what the transactions were going to be in a given day of people tell us ahead of time so all that was in many ways math and data and reorganizing and making sure our capacity matches the need of our residents in the offices and in three years we were able to completely eliminate the away time, completely eliminate the challenges in our operation and make the dmv run extremely smoothly and we are still not done. There are mobile offices to go into communities that cant get to a branch, College Campuses and Senior Centers where people cant necessarily get their drivers license unless they go to a branch, we bring the branch to the with the view and philosophy of government should help people where they are and operationalize that and the mission of making government work better for everybody because if youre going around asking people to vote and try to make voting easier youve got to also make sure the government doesnt abandon those you are getting to come out to vote by not serving them well and come to the Government Office and it is a 5 hour wait and instead of showing that you can improve Government Operations has been very gratifying and the thing that has made the greatest impact among the people i interact with every day, the second piece, the chief election officer, its been gratifying not just to serve in this role during this historic time for democracy but to do so while implementing a whole collection of policies that i as a law professor would advocate for, election day registration, no recent absentee voting, early voting, automatic voter registration. When i came into Office Michigan voters had just amended the state constitution to put all those policies into our law and charge me as secretary of state with implanting them so it was incredibly, not to mention an independent citizens for Districting Commission which voters also created which was put into my office to create and implement. I pinched myself when i was running with my team, start on day one implementing these things which as i learned is just as important having an administrator will input in these policies successfully and securely is as good as getting them passed to begin with so getting to create this new day for democracy in our state and see the highest turnout in state history has been extremely gratifying because it has reaffirmed what i believed as an academic that if you follow the data on both those fronts and temperament good policies free of politics you can change things in a significant way and get reelected. Reducing weight time as dmv and getting reelected. Excellent. So the chief election officers continue that and our theme defending democracy, how do you see that work continuing, what are the challenges that are ahead for you . A lot of us in this room talked about this which is great, what is next in terms of defending democracy and building and strengthening it in michigan . Guest the precipice of 2024, day 3 or 4 of 2024. I dont know what our democracy is going to look like a year from now. I hope the direction we can go in, i have fears of the direction, the other direction we could go in and it is not related necessarily to any one person winning or losing an election, its related to what we as citizens will do for the next 12 months. The democracy we can either push for and create together or advocate for together, or the democracy that could wither on the vine if we dont take responsibility particularly in this industry to engage the american citizens in understanding how important this moment is for defining the future of our democracy and one of the more challenging things in that that i referred to as the noise, the difficulty especially as an educator which is my job, trying to get out truthful information in this fog of misinformation coming from all different directions, all different agendas not to mention the underrealized, the real potential of foreign interference, misinformation and spread of misinformation, the way people get their information, all of that makes you feel you are shouting into the abyss and no one can hear you even though you are trying to speak the truth and educate and inspire and encourage people to stay engaged and it doesnt reach its intended audience because it gets tangled up in so much information. That is the battle. That we are fighting truth, education and certainly it doesnt help to have candidates with large megaphones spreading lies along with the whole ecosystem that are repeating lies its very demoralizing. There are many times in which it feels more and more like the volume on misinformation is getting louder and the volume on education and truth is diminishing so going into 24, that to me is the challenge but it is one that history teaches us anything it is that democracy survives and thrives when we the people demand that it does. That is what 1965 was about in selma, what the postcivil war era was about previous to the jim crow era. I believe the future of our democracy is in our hands and i think my hope is we will spend this year trying to help as many people realize that as possible, to fight back against misinformation with truth and engagement and voting and not allowing those who try to gain power through division. Host you said your new years resolution for 2024. Democracy will prevail. We are now several days into the year as you mentioned. How are we feeling . Guest i wish i could say i am energized but tired and exhausted fighting this battle. Really discouraged, really discouraged by the disarray and political rancor and i know what this is about. I am discouraged but hopeful. Every conversation i had i feel it is hard over the last few days, the 14th amendment issue, demoralizing to be focusing on that personally. I hope it gets settled as soon as possible. Whatever direction that is. I feel like we are not focused as a community. I feel like we are not focused or going in alignment, going all over the place. What i know is democracy, the enemy, to see it diminish in america, there are a lot of people who want to see that. The enemies of democracy want chaos, confusion, and fear, thats the goal, create chaos, create confusion and create fear that causes people to disengage and stop believing in their democracy and their own voice. Counter to that, giving clarity and certainty and confidence in people on all those things. Confusion and chaos, the ways in which this is used to create that. The battlefront around those lines. When i see allies not aligned on creating confidence, certainty, and clarity and feeding into the chaos, confusion and fear is frustrating. Got to stay focused on the battle and we are not right now. You can add substance to that but i am nervous. Nervous are good because nerves cause you to work harder and stay focused and not blink or flinch, we will get through this. I had hoped we will and where we will be after 24 happens. What will the future of democracy look like in 2025 and beyond . How will we define it . Will we embrace the opportunity to truly become a pluralistic inclusive democracy. Can we truly transition into a truly multiracial pluralistic democracy. Thats the fight to me, if we protect democracy and engage a new generation in our country and see what we could be if our democracy grows and thrives and takes a moment to become stronger. Host questions that have come in that i want to talk about. Combining a little bit of your questions and your answers already. One thing in particular, talking about nervousness, frustration, concerns, take us back a few years in 2020, when there was a very serious plot to kidnap your governor, you referred to running for office, something that shocked all of us, how far Political Violence is gone, to put it in context, living with the aftermath of the insurrection but before the insurrection, in that context, threats of Political Violence, what do you do in terms of your job but also helps that way into assessments of power . The answer to both of those things is the used of challenges to be more determined. The governor and attorney general that im honored to serve alongside and we are truly good friend, and when things are bad. When you get scared, to threaten you, and all of this experience. Stronger and more focused and emboldened to do the work you were elected to do. It is analogous to the path of defending democracy, challenges to make the democracy stronger. The focus on democracy to get more people fighting to make it stronger. That is how we get out of this moment by taking every arrow and using it to come back stronger. When you see it like that, i work with my team to do you start seeing the arrows thrown at you as opportunities to get better. And it creates an energy of forward motion. Walking through the darkness, to know the darkness is making you better at doing the work you want to do and help our democracy be better than it was. Which is classical. Host related to that, the folks you work with referenced earlier, becoming dean at 36 and the youngest woman in history, the top law school, you are elected alongside gretchen wittner, making history as being three women in the top constitutional offices of your state and we cant forget being one of the small group of women to complete the Boston Marathon when 8 months pregnant. My Wonderful Team at law school supporting me all the way. Remarkable accomplishments. And walking through life every day, being of the first woman in so many contexts, how has that impacted your own approach . What do you feel are the opportunities in your life as a trailblazer . You talked about damon keith who is remarkable trailblazer who had plenty of role models, specifically as a woman in whatever parts of your life, reflect on that. Guest running marathons is a metaphor for so many things in this way as well. When i qualified for boston, i would be excited and found out a week later i was pregnant and i did the math and my initial thought was i cant run boston because i will be 36, 37 at that point. My initial thought was i cant do it and i did some research and found out a woman the year before had completed the Boston Marathon. We are doing this. It was so impactful to me because she did it. I thought i could do it and i dont know if i will finish the marathon but i want to train one step at a time and if i run 8 miles they will say iran 8 miles when i was 8 months pregnant. If i had run half the way i will be able to say i can do it half the way. See what happens, try. But because she did i believe i could and i also wanted to try so that if i did do it someone else believe he could do it too. When you look at gretchen and dana and i we ran for Different Reasons to do these jobs but by doing so, we wanted to show that it is possible and whether it is running for office or achieving another dream or another way of making change, our actions will show and define what is possible for people who look to us and that has been part of my work, recognizing the great advice as dean dealing with the challenge a female mentor of mine who ran a business from a very young age until she retired said even when you feel like people are treating you differently because of your gender or not taking you seriously, that is all true but think about the people who dont have as much power . They are dealing with it too and it is much worse for them. Focus on that. Dont focus on banking your head against the wall and being frustrated about how you are being treated, focus on other women who have less power and less platform view and that has helped me as well, get through challenges where you see challenges or barriers or how you define them and you think who else is dealing with this and how can i help them . So that has been part of the work. Host in the context of the plot to kidnap the governor, something to questions from the audience also, i read it as written, one barrier to access democracy, the Political Climate involves threats to Women Leaders including the kidnapping plot against governor witmer, and election workers, how can we combat such threats . What gretchen and i say is bring it on, it will just make us better, stronger. That is what you see throughout this ordeal. Similarly, recognizing get if you as a person can learn to take adversities to make you better at your job and your work you have overcome. Those threatening or trying to achieve you countered what they were trying to achieve and they failed and you have become stronger and better. The latest when we have all been dealing, we recognize when people outside the home with guns, not certify the 2020 election and this moment, they are not protesting democracy. Protesting the will of the people. My job is to protect democracy and they comfort me all i want. What they are threatening is our american democracy and i wont allow that to succeed. Seeing the battle not as a personal one, but one that is a threat to what you represent enables me at least, shea and ruby talked about this as one that creates a sense of purpose and responsibility we have to fight and channel that into making democracy more secure and speaking the truth. And what theyve done quite effectively. We are better for it. They didnt just take the threat and walk away, all right . They said no. You cant threaten me and cant threaten our democracy and we will push back and stand our ground and seek justice. The more we do that, the more women demonstrate that is how you react, not by cowering or succumbing, but by getting stronger and seeking justice and seeking the truth, we continue to show, i hope, other women entering various fields how to operate and ultimately diminish the threat. They will not be successful. [applause] we have some questions i want to get to, section 3, a roomful of law professors. No matter what i say everyone will be at the event. We are in the middle of this. Your counterpart in maine in colorado, you have your Supreme Court has made a decision. We are getting different answers to the key question of whether or not donald trump can be on the ballot, because of the question of his qualifications, and different bodies making the decision whether it is the secretary of state, the Supreme Court, this may get to the us Supreme Court. Tell us who should decide . Merits, timing on the question on the interpretation of the 14th amendment. Sec. Benson there is three things. One is the substantive question, second is the who who should be deciding this issue, and at what point is it right. I think in my view, the first issue is in my view, the first issue is its not in my view there are a lot of factual, legal ambiguities that make this not directly analogous to someone whos clearly served two terms and wants to serve a third, or someone who all the facts of firm was not born in the united states. With our factual legal ambiguities of how you define insurrection under this clause, how you define aiding and abetting, how you interview process, all of those things are complex and really yield the question of who should be deciding notches qualifications, but who should be interpreting this in a way that will give us clarity and finality, and then win. So all of that, and about an oped in the Washington Post on this inn september when the first emerged. It led me to concludee and realy feel quite strongly that the u. S. Supreme court needs to decide this sooner rather than later and has to be a and there has to be clarity of the natalie otherwise we just going to devolve into a lot of people has their own interpretations and opinions about this and everyone feels there is is clear and bright. My position is simply its not as clearcut as many people on both sides are making it out to be. In that recognition and in recognition of the fact that whatever we do in this matter First Impression creates a precedent for the future. We have to be very careful, transparent, and completely buy the book and how the should play out. And in my view thats what you Supreme Court is for. We can debate and discuss the current makeup of you Supreme Court and all that right now. Yes, that is a reality but from a legal standpoint from a legal precedent standpoint, in my view when you have these questions of facts and law its the job of the court to figure that out. Its not the job of one politician to make that call. And ive said that clearly. I said that as secretary of state. Thet vast majority of my colleagues have agreed and moved in alignment. So well see how it plays out. And i am hopeful, very helpful, and believe that u. S. Supreme court will provide some clarity so the rather than later. I hope they dont take it to congress. I fear they might say this is a decision for congress to make, which is like again my stuff to delete like for me the worst possible thingub to think of because then it just going to devolve into politics in termsse of factual determination, legal determination. But i suspect that may be how it plays out, given past precedent and, its been made in other cases in the certain area. But its not, but yeah, so i think and we are on path for getting, i mean, on trump filed in u. S. Supreme court yesterday or this week. I will be filing an amicus to you Supreme Court on monday asking for it substantive decision on the meritssi as soon as possible, and my hope is whatever the decision is, provide some sort of finality o we can go on with this, the administration for elections. To follow up on that for second. Youre talking about the prospect, and by the way i commend anyone to read the oped from the Washington Post, very helpful. But you say they may ticket to congress, that into the weeds for second, political question doctrine do you think . Yeah. Or interpreting the 14th amendment to say congress should decide whether under this summit is ineligible to serve, and then therede would be after the election if it comes, if its an open question at that point, and it could mean a year from now on january 4 it is being debated. That to me would be a really, at that keeps the question alive also, right, and debate throughout the whole election cycle. But again is going to be a messy your with this issue makes it messier or other issues make it messy, the bottom line from my focus is i do believe the election this year will determine and influence if not determine the future of our democracy. I do believe voters in them need to take all of this into consideration as they make their decisions. Thats what ive been trying to say to the voters in my state, and if givenop the opportunity voters in other states that none of this changes the battle that we are in, to me, which is, which is far more at this rate than just one person. None of the changes the opportunities before us which is to fight for a better democracy that emerges from thiss moment, healthier and more robust than ever before. So fast forwarding to a year from now, we are, you know, january 6th has a particular meaning. Talking about getting a year from now, whether we would be a look at anything comparable. Lets go back to january 6th, 2021. You are secretary of state and you are witnessing whats happening at the capital. What was going through your mind at that time . Certainly as you have make clear to all y of us your own devotion to our democracy personally, things that motivate you but also you have a job. So what kind of thoughts were running through your head . I was really sad. Two main thoughts were one, absolute horror as to what was unfolding at was unfolding. We could not outlive was going to end. We just love images, what was happening, you were from people who were there. This was real fear and sadness. And then that transition to just a recognition that this is all happening because of a why, ill lie right . And it wasnt, i always try to understand this but we do lawyers, try to understand the burden of proof and argument position and it just that these folks are doing it because they have been lied to and the belief that life, and the truly tragic and really sad. As an educator heartbreaking. If someone who wanted one to believe them and how they vote in the power of the vote and the boys come in the power of democracy as it wasan religious had some people try to reject democracy based on a lie. So yeah, it was really sad. And then the last piece of it it was felt throughout the whole 70s however many days between the polls close in november and january 6th was that we actually had a red successful election in michigan. We got ouruc votes counted fast, 24 hours at the polls close, todays fast that anyone thought. More people voted ever before. We implement all these changes come automatically registration all the all these things and it worked, and people voted at things with smoothly and we had a a great process. It wasnt until those results became known 24 hours after the polls close that thingsth startd to goo awry. It was frustrating to not be able to take a minute to even celebrate the success, justce he to go into defense mode. And in the last thing i will say is as they unfolded just recognizing everything we had fought through, and it was treacherous everyday from november 10 to january 6th, you wake up thinking this is it. If we certify our election we will be done. If we get those Electoral College votes to the national archives, we will have done it. And every time you think that you defeated the effort to overturn the will of the people in your state, another things pops up that. Chapter battle. By january 6th when it was just this culmination of all of these smaller skirmishes we had been witnessing i just that this is just the beginning, this is not going to end. I stopped believing this was going to end, the challenges of democracy would end with a cycle and to start to see the cycle of 2020 as beginning of this multiyour effort that weve been involved in. And i started to see 2024th as i hope grand finale of this cycle efforts that we been witnessing, and i do believe there is an opportunity in 24 o defend democracy with such certainty, clarity and effectiveness that we do put an end to this modern challenge to it. So thats what help 24 ultimo is. I hope and 25 we can move on and defined what the era after this last two years will look like. And that i think again is the opportunity before us for the next 12 months. I love that. Defend democracy with with certainty, clarity and effectiveness. And indeed we are here talking about defending democracy, and in the context of the work we do i think the question the final set that came from our audience, what resources would you suggest law professors employ students and family members critically analyzede misinformation they he received about the socalled stolen election of 2020 . In that specific point youre making before about happened, as the nature of your concerns, how do we as law professors help in that specific context of misinformation . I think exponential learning as many of us know it was powerful. There are a lot of ways in which you can apply that here. Certainly hasnt lost his given them a day off when an election, there are many fishers, not just in november. In michigan where having three statewide elections and a few local ones. Giving them the day or encouraging them are getting credit for being a poll worker and seeing firsthand perhaps in one ofed the primary elections n your state how elections work, and then using that to tell people how it actually works. The truth is on our side in this regard in terms of our elections in every state being accessible and secure as a result being an accurate reflection of the will of people. Theres no shortage of activities or action you can take from being part of an audit which many states to after an election or simply going to a certification hearing and seeing how that plays out. Certainly the power and the work of being anwe election worker fr a day is probably the best thing one can do to see firsthand through experience the truth about our elections in a way that can counter misinformation. Secondly to not turn away from the noise. Where, and i say this as someone that was sort of my modus operandi, to not listen to it. I think actually taking it on and peeling it back and say no, we had 250 audits in michigan, this is what we found. Continue to have those conversations with people who have been misled and recognizing your not going to necessarily be successful. But the efforts, i mean what i ran the Boston Marathon i did know if i was going to succeed or finish it. When i ran for office i did know if i is going to win. We engage in these conversations, in this work because if the right thing to do and we have faith that it moves the ball forward even if we dont see the results of our work. Thats what educatione is. So i i would encourage students and all of us to have these conversations to recognize the people have been fed a diet of misinformation for years now and it may not be possible to witness their transformation backth to reality but that doest mean we dont continue to seek t the truth. And find ways to live the truth as well. I will sort his opinion that by saying i think part of the goal of those are trying to spread misinformation to deter democracy has people lose faith in a voice come in the boat but i can stop participating and give up on democracy altogether. So if a law student can at least take responsibility for ensuring we dont give ups on democracy for believing in the context and the power of it, and then seeing its effectiveness and teaching that history, i think we can leverage our influences as law professors and is legal academia and the students in our classes to be a part of moving the ball forward in this moment and cutting through some of the misinformation. The some work were doing in michigan, we call the Voter Confidence Council coune bringing together educators, faith leaders, sports leaders, business leaders, labor leaders and other community leaders, people who have voice of influence to equip them with information about our elections so whatever they standwi they cn help us disseminate that truthful information perks of being apart of that as well and working with your respective states to be an ally as he tried to get up trusted information to different circles, that can be powerful as well. Excellent. Let me follow up a little bit about schools, law schools. What i tried to say throughout this year is that we in our teaching, in oure scholarship ad the culture of the school can try to defend democracy. So as a dean, professor, scholar, what did you think inside the School Building would be a a couple of particular this that we might walk away with, what would be something we could do like when we saw classes again in a couple of weeks . First, do not see yourself as separate from democracy but a part of the registering people to vote or encouraging them to get information out about registering to vote and being part of the process, encouraging students and alums to host a polling place which we hosted at the Damon Keith Center which was really empowering for students who then have ownership of a polling place at thewn school, that they are hosting and seeing people enabling them to vote. Registering people to vote. Iveot been working with our College President s in michigan to register every student in the fall when the come to campus when the register for classes. Given the opportunity to register to vote at the same time. And then gone bad i went again, i would, if possible, i would have all of the professors and staff in the community not just polling place but perhaps sign up to be an election worker in addition to that or in lieu of that at a local precinct. That really is critical for being a part,al taking ownership of the a administration of elections. Anddm then third, so registerina going to vote polling place hosting and for serving as a poll worker. And the third thing is have these conversations, particularly conversations bringing together as we can do so well and hopefully an educational environment for people who dont see eye to eye on the reality of Election Administration and host conversation, have students talk about them and if students talk about them through the lens of the who are we going to vote for, whos going to win or the sort of horse race but who are going to be and what do we want our democracy to be moving forward and how are we going to be a part of defining that for the future and how does this moment enable us to do that . Having those broader conversations about what our democracy is and whether or not were going to take responsibility for strengthening now and in the future and seeing how this goes in getting students think about the role that will but also as attorneys in this work of notches in the the moment but in years to come. So here is an audience question. Could you tell us about michigans new law to curb deepfakes in elections . What are some of the concerns you have about ai in an Election Administration . In an election cycle were misinformation is going to be the tool for deterring people from participating, for trying to delegitimize our processes and our results, we have a responsibility to do everything we can to get out in front of it. What weve done ispo along witha handful of other states is enacted laws of both required disclosures and disclaimers of any political communication that is created Artificial Intelligence, and then also criminalize use of deepfakes or intentionally misinforming creating communications that would intentionally this form or create misinformation about a particular candidate or issue, creating criminal penalties for that. Its analogous to the federal legislation that senator hawley and senator klobuchar has introduced and did something i think every state needs to do as a first step. The second bed on that what you have those Legal Protections in place is a course educating voters about what to do if they spot a deep fake, had reported, having a system for that which we set up, and we havent this information website, outlining email where people can send the thing so we can make sure things are taken down. Then third find a partner if possible with Technology Organization and social Media Companies so that wind are things that are out there we can get, you can rapidly respond and have them taken down. So the lasting were also doing in every election within s since i took office but were doing turbocharge this year is where the field team in place on electionec and we know 90s or early voting still bee in place as well to rapidly respond to rumors about what could happen at the polls. Im worried that just about deepfakes saying candidates saying xyz. Im worried about Artificial Intelligence being used to spread rumors about violence at polling places or just loan blind to deter people from showing up. So were going to have a team working with Law Enforcement to monitor that and then be able to go to a polling place, affirm something is not accurate, put up trusted and real information and then build a network to disseminate that information to me and elsewhere. Basically to combat, to anticipate the lies and to try to have a Rapid Response team in place to combat with the truth. And then related to that were talking at all the steps of the people know if they hear about things on election day that it could be Artificial Intelligence and to be critical consumers of information that we can sort of question if your something as opposed to some of it is a fact and trying to work with the voter confidence counsel i mentioned earlier which with set upri in various places throughot our state int ten different communities to get information out to actively and reactively. Thank you. We have time for a couple more questions, and im going to turn the last bit may be away from your job as much but also related to it to the you are. One of the questions is can you talk about your personal leadership style . You supervise many people arere bright of areas and it would be great to have you keep people motivated as they face challenges. Three things. One, i have built a team that is very Mission Driven and we have Strategic Planning retreat every year, january, this one is on monday the eighth overstepped out our goals for the years. These articles, break them down annual, monthly and then weekly and then with weekly meetings will retract our goals. That helps operationalize what we want to achieve in a particular year. Its been great over the last six years to see our todo list diminish as weve accomplished things. We had a big todo list in january 2019 and a discount small as one which helps us feel forward progress like were call pushing something as team and hold each other accountable. Clarity inn terms of what our expectations are from our colleagues come from ourselves. Two, i take a very collaborative approach to decisionmaking along the way. I believe the soma who loves democracy that not one party or one person has all the solutions and ideas but through collaboration and even deliberation we can come up with the best solutions. Creating an assignment where people feel comfortable, not only that we collaborate but we deliberate, challenge each other, the people know i dont believe that i believe in respect and when its experts in their chosen positions to up us come up with solutions together. So creating an environment where that collaboration and deliberation is expected and is the norm and is welcome and is encouraged. Then finally, i say to my team i really, i say this to my team, i need three things. Honesty, integrity and reliability. I need you to be honest with me, dont lie andnd say you didnt o something just be honest with ourselves and our colleagues. Acts of integrity for when no one else is looking, you know that basic expectation and fiduciary responsibility and all that. And then be reliable. If you say youre going to do something, if you commit to do something do it. If something happens and it can be honest about what happens so we can Work Together to remedy it. I come again thats all in r ne. If you can give me those three things and even if you miss deadlines, then we are fine because i know i can trust you and your acting with integrity and i know youre going to work to be reliable and be honest about what happens if something goes wrong. And then with all of that in place we operationalize our work with sort of one overarching thing which i iit always say e a family first team. I have a seven year old, almost going on making as of the young kids or family members are responsible for taking care of or partners or others, and we just had each others backs and i do this myself. If my kid needs me to leave the middle of the day to go pick them up at school i go do it. Goes for him but also for my team to see that thats okay, and it frees them up to do the same. My chief of staff has three young kids all under the age of ten. If she needs to take a day off because one of the mystic thats cool, we do it in the questions asked. That sends the culture we have built since day one and it enables us to essentially be whole people, which you have to do when youre in that battle type of environment as we are. We cant run people into the ground. We have to allow people to love whole lives and create that balance, and its been a source of joy to do that from the top and you say yes, im not convinced a speeding today because i had to go, like my kid forgot his blanket and had to go get it for him and edwin is like okay. So its fine. [applause] so you just mentioned you have your annual retreat, Strategic Planning on monday. Monday also happens to be the day the university of michigan will be playing imm not going to the game. I have to work. Got to go to work. What are your predictions for [laughing] i mean obviously, go blue. I mean, its going to be a great game. Spark we have a couple of hockey fans out there. I i guess its good time for football in michigan with yeah. And and i grew up in pittsburs well so i sort of bleed like in gold also. But football is a passion of mine, as is baseball. But its also been notable, and he said this at an event i was at a few days ago that im real but im most worried about this year is how divided we are in so many ways, and how i dont yet see a leader or leaders that can bring us back together or a message that can unify us, other than sports. And we do see, right . That was after the lions one, they beat the cowboys, and so i was like come on, we can all agree on that, right . This idea of unified sports is something that a think is operational as a kind of figure how to come back together as a country at this moment which will have to be thinking about. Were in the midst of the battle over the future of our democracy and a country in this moment at the would be a future and we all have to figure out whether its this year or three years from now or five years, what we are fighting for and what we want to get torts. I know what i want to get torts. I want to get torts are true inclusive democracy where every voice is valued and with voice is heard. That is what im fighting for. So i do think the unifying sort of thing in this moment is for us to decide as a country of who we want to be and what we want to see together and our sports teams can in many ways provide some at least fodder for envisioning what that could be like if we all agree our teams are and as someone who grew up in washington, d. C. I can agree the cowboys lost. [laughing] the lions won thate game. So as you talk about your future i will close on this. You constantly speak about your vision and for what our country looks like. Specifically for you, but that involve the national stage, political service, Government Service . You know, what is next . You got a job you have to do every day, of what is next for you . Well, i amm turn limited unfortunately. It was a very, as someone who aspired to do this job and loves this job, its very kind of a jarring to suddenly win an election and not be able to run for this job ever again. But are still many ways to serve, and do some new ways i intend to serve in michigan. So we will what 2026 brings. I will provide some clarity on that after we get through the 2024 election cycle. But what i have seen through my work now and on behalf of the state of michigan is how much opportunity there is in our state to make government work well. Ive taken a state agency from being a sort of the butt of jokes to being the model for our state agency can run. And it really want to see if we can make all of State Government work that well, and truly leave michigan from the perspective of a common vision of who we want to be and operationalize the State Government that serves as one effectively, fully fix i intend to try to stay in the game and i will focus more on that and make relevant announcements after we get through 2024. I kind of expected thatma answer, e but did have to ask te obviously you are always welcome back. There are 200 law schools around the country, untruth would all be happy to have you back in the classroom teaching, writing, but above all sharing your wisdom with all of us. And im grateful that you came in today. And on behalf of of the als, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more including cox. 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