Transcripts For CSPAN2 NATO 20240705 : vimarsana.com

Unbiased, word for word. From the Nations Capital to wherever you are, because the opinion that matters the most is your own. This is what democracy looks like. Cspan powered by cable. Delaware democratic senator chris coons talked about the humanitarian crisis in gaza and other global challenges during the World Economic forum in davos, switzerland and he was joined by leaders from n. A. T. O. And discussed using diplomacy to resolve conflicts. This is 50 minutes. Good afternoon. Welcome to the session on securing and insecure, of course, im biased, but this is one session in davos, you should go to it, it should be this one. Youve done a good choice and in this panel, i think were also going to get enlightened. We are faced with the most complex geopolitical backdrop in any davos in the last decades. Id like that we can make an insecure world a bit more secure. On my left, i have the federal minister affairs, germany and then we have his highness, saudi arabia, and then we have senator chris coons from the u. S. Delaware, the former seat of President Biden. And then we have youssef, the minister of Foreign Affairs, and how many days have you been in the job . Sound like forever, but since august. They say being a foreign minister, one, theyre dog years. I think dog years is seven, is it . And then, we go also to the Finnish Foreign minister, welcome. And then i think doesnt need that much presentation and the secretarygeneral of n. A. T. O. So, give them applause to start. [applause] a little bit of the positive note. We will have to touch on the situation in the middle east, the danger of escalation, the latest development in the red sea, but of course, also, the ongoing war in gaza. We will also have to touch on the other war in ukraine. We also have to touch on what we just heard this morning, chinas premier and the g2, u. S. China, but also, the order that we left is gone post cold warld order, were in between orders so we dont really know what the new order will be, hopefully not the jungle growing back, but something based on International Law and the u. N. Charter. So, we will also touch on that. And then, i think so, without any further ado, your highness, minister faisal, where to start and end. How worried are you about the situation in the red sea . Its one of the major transportation canals of the world. Were seeing those ships going aroundfr instead of the canal. Was it necessary to take the steps, are you supporting them and you have been trying to rein in the houthis for quite a while, havent you . I think we are incredibly concerned for Regional Security in general and of course, freedom of navigation in the red sea, something that impacts all of us, and we think the priority needs to be deescalation, deescalation in the red sea, but the entire region and were then engaged to make that happen and part of that, of course, is making sure that we engage with all stake holders. How connected is this with the war in gaza . I mean, its clearly connected, given that its coming in that context and we need to focus on the war in israel not because of the red sea, we need to focus on the war in israel because of the impact on palestinian, and the risks it poses for further escalation and you know, we see now close to 30,000 civilians killed in gaza. We continue to see civilians being killed every day. We continue to see restrictions on access, and frankly we dont see any real signs that any strategic objective that theyre coming any closer. So we need to have a ceasefire immediately. We need to set the ground for a credible process that enables the palestinian authority, that allows us to have process towards peace in the region. This will resolve many of the challenges that we have in the region, but continuing as we are now, continuing to see the suffering that is happening in israel is likely to lead to continuing cycles of escalation. I think many of us were a bit relieved that it did notr escalate the situation in gaza to lebanon, but what were seeing now is it has kind of escalated to yemen and has impacts on the navigation in the red sea. You also in the kingdom will the with iran. Are you surprised that of the role in iran when it comes to this situation and with escalation with the houthis or are they not that involved . I cant speak for the iranians, but what i can say again, i just want to make clear that our priority and our emphasis is on finding the path to deescalation and that is ar in our view, through a ceasefire and thats through serious engagement across the region, but we need to focus on the immediate crisis. The immediate crisis is the suffering thats happening. And were seeing it going on and dont see prospects of that ending and im somewhat heartened to see the International Community moving more in the direction weve called for since the beginning, calling for cease fires, which is calling for more humanitarian aid, but we need to do more clearly, not enough has been done because the killing continues and suffering continues. I think youve visited the region, israel and the palestinian areas, also, four times since 7th of october. You heard what his highness is saying and the ceasefire. And needs to deescalate. Whats your take on what the minister just said . Well, also, the two of us, but with many colleagues and friends, we have been in constant contacts in the last three months because in my assessment, this is a total disaster. Its a disaster for israel, its a disaster for the civilians in gaza. Its a disaster for the whole world and we are working nonstep, the foreign minister level at the moment to prevent that just a spark could burn the whole region, and not only the region, i mean, we feel the consequences also in the ukraine. We feel the consequences in europe, the media is not reporting about the most heavy attacks from russia on civilians in ukraine since the start of the russian invasion. We feel the consequences travel has been last week to israel, to gaza, rougher Border Crossing and also into the neighboring countries. I went to the philippines and malaysia, we in germany feel the consequences, malaysia, and do you have any sentiments against muslim countries because you are not calling for ceasefire in the wording, my dear college and friends, prince faisal, were calling for sustainable ceasefire because i believe that a ceasefire, unfortunately, doesnt fall from the sky. We can only reach a ceasefire if both sides are ready, that the suffering for one self also ends suffering from the others. In my assessment and actually, i dont mean assessment, im really emotional about this because we are speaking about children still in hospice in gaza, 1yearold child. Were speaking about a boy i just saw in the hospital when i was there, when i went from gaza crossing rafah to the hospital, 10 kilometers away the same moment a 5yearold boy came by ambulance waiting for weeks that he could come to egypt and be hospital, only with his mother and his baby sister, the whole rest of the family has been killed. And the discussion about the ceasefire sounds so technical, but its about saving these children. Those children still being hostage, those children under the humanitarian disaster, and i believe the problem we are in this actually we know the solution, we can only come out together on a plan on the ceasefire on the plan of a twostate solution, but at the moment stuck in a viciouscircle, because the vicious circle means you have to stop it has to come together. The freeing of the hostages, the humanitarian situation and the questions, where we might disagree, there has to be a call from the whole International Community that hamas has to lay down its weapon so israel is not threatened from gaza anymore and obviously, and this is what others are asking from us, like germany standing with israels right to selfdefense, obviously, this includes also a change of strategy that not so many civilians are dying. At the moment we are stuck in this vicious circle and we have to find, and i think this is our obligation as an International Community of those who believe in the rule of law to find the solution to come out of this vicious circle and this is why im travelling, many colleagues are travelling around the clock to come to peace not only for the region, but i would say for the whole world. Well, thank you. The■8 humanitarian suffering in gaza will just continue and continue until there is a political solution . Because as the two former during the two former gaza wars there were conferences after where there was a lot of money, and one rebuilt gaza, but i guess the International Donors dont want to rebuild again if theres a danger for a total or destruction in a few years and then im looking at what are the realistic scenarios. One scenario is that its a state. Like a pre2005 situation before israel pulled out, then we can see a situation where the pa, and fatah takes over the rule of gaza. I guess they would be quite reluctant, i dont know what hes said in discussions with you on this, and then the third one could be fatah hamas, but i guess israel is not very open for that solution. So, what is now really the most realistic outcome for gaza that can also bring humanitarian relief and bring us on the path, as you mentioned, for a twostate solution . I believe the only way out is a ostate solution. If everybody recognized that israelis can only live in peace and security when palestinians live in peace and security, but the other side is also true, palestinians can only live in peace and security if israelis for the future are guaranteed that they are capable of living in peace and security without any rockets flying anymore, so, actually i would say the answer is there on the table, but the problem is, the bridge over the other side of the river. We cannot Work Together because on the concrete measures right now, its always this titfortat. If this doesnt happen first, then this cannot happen and we blame game and i believe again, it needs different countries, which come together and say, this is the way how we bridge it and maybe change askg what side are you on. The countries, so divided on it. If we ask it from the point of the people and i mean human and foreign politics is about the people. If we are, what do the people of israel, what do the people of gaza need . And they need, obviously, in gaza, humanitarian now, and the question, how to we come to the political answers. If that we have to change course on the humanitarian situation, and for me, German Foreign minister, i was saying loud and clear that the access to gaza has to change. I believe that its highly important that our support and can be used as Border Crossing as well. And obviously there were checks, but i was standing there besides estimated 3,000 trucks waiting to enter gaza. People are starving there and here is the food. So the food and water has to come in. On the other hand, and this is what im discussing with our friends and colleagues, we cannot ignore the majority of the hostages are still in the hand of hamas. Some people think, well, the hostages have been freed now. No, the majority is still in the hands of hamas. So while speaking about humanitarian access to come in, because of the people, we have say together and this is my pull for other countries who havent addressed it so clearly yet to call on the freeing of the hostages. So without any conditions. And do both together. I believe, this could be the step which we need on the further question of the role of fatah, the role of the pa. I was there, i was speaking about the question of reforming, about the question of holding up elections. I mean, this was also discussion before that we need to obviously elections, also, in the but hamas and the west bank, too . This is interesting. At this moment now, im rejecting black and white discussions, this needs nowhere and when i was in israel this time, i also spoke to researchers and there were interesting findings. In german media it was reported which have been made in gaza and the west bank, it was reported the majority is now for hamas, in gaza and the west bank. When i spoke to the researchers in israel, actually the findings was, it was a majority, if youre the people, but the same with polls. The question, how do you ask the question. The question if they would support hamas in this kind of situation, it was not about 50 . So its not the majority. Many people obviously said we dont know. And actually, the increase from the support of hamas, at least to this poll. Has increased only by 4 to 6 over the last three months. So which is also there in german and western media, now this theres a big push for hamas. This is not the finding from the people. Because the people under hamas, they are being misused as human protection shield. I think again, not black and white. We have to address, again, a question for Us International players to find a solution. We have to also think and this is what were discussing the day after, how can we hold election. What will be the precondition . My precondition, obviously, guaranteeing the right of israel and guaranteeing the right of the palestinians. This in peace and security. These are the International Rules that start off the United Nations was founded on. And the worst thing we could do is just wait and see. For me, this is no option at all. Obviously, its very difficult to move one step further, but wait and see, we saw now in the last three months, this leads to further escalation and therefore, im thankful for the exchange here today. Thank you very much. Senator in the arab peace plan, if there was a twostate solution, arab countries were guaranteeing also for israels security, as well as palestinian states. But it was a broad regional understanding based also on the global understanding. Listening to prince ■zfaisal, also, the general foreign minister, who can is there a possibility at all to break the current impasse both in gaza the one with the war and on the twostate solution . Because there is like almost there is more than 30 years of the process now and yes, im optimistic that there is a possibility of peace along that framework. Two months ago, a group of 10 senators, five republicans, five democrats, went to princet to tel aviv, met with Prime Minister netanyahu and the war cabinet and other israel leaders meant with president alsisi and the possibility of that Regional Peace, regional reconciliation with a real path towards a palestinian state is still there. But the conditions on the ground have gotten worse every single day. The suffering of civilians in gaza have gotten to an unacceptable level. The refusal to deliver humanitarian assistance at scale has become unacceptable and the continued holding of hostages by hamas. There was an encouraging period qatar helped facilitate the release of some hostages. Theres just also been the delivery from medicines, but we are a long way from resolving this and making any positive path forward requires a change, both in the sentiments and the leadership in israel, as well as the sentiments in the region. The United States can and should play central and facilitating role, but we cannot make peace where there are peoples not willing to or committed to. S a shattering mor the people of israel to reexamine whether a strategy of having both hamas and fatah in the west bank and gaza was wise or unwise. Whether or not there is a guarantee of security returning to that, and whether or not its sustainable globally for israel, to continue this conduct of the war in gaza. I would argue it is not. There is also a regional actor we have to be clear about. It is iran that is providing the drones and the missiles that are killing civilians in ukraine. It is iran that has provided a lot of the training and the support that makes houthi drone attacks, missile attacks possible, hamas attacks possible and we have to be cleareyed that there is an accelerating trajectory of difficulty. The dprk and iran have provided Critical Resources to rusia for which they will be rewarded with technology that will make the world more dangerous. I think we need to be decisive, i think we need to be engaged and i think we need to be cleareyed. We have talked a long time about a palestinian state without making any Real Progress so i think this is a moment for bold action. I agree with much of what the minister had said about a sustainable ceasefire that the conditions for creating that are going to require some real changes. Our secretary of state has been throughout the region tirelessly, so, too, have many other american leaders. I am actually hopeful that this is possible, but hope is not a strategy without significant investment and real change. Is that possible with the current Israeli Government . Prime minister netanyahu has made a career for long time of■ opposing a twostate solution. This is not recent, this is not new. So, i think it falls to the israeli people to decide as a democracy what they see as the right path forward, but theres also very short time. There is a short window before the american political election season squeezes out any possibility of us ratifying or engaging or supporting a new security arrangement in the region. Theres also many elections in other places. This is the year of many complex and challenging elections and so, i think and if there is an agreement the jfpoa was just terminated by trump. If he was to be reelected and the Biden Administration made deals now, could we count on the u. S. Administration continuing . The United States rarely ratifies security treaties, but when we do, we keep them. We have just enacted our Defense Authorization act. It includes a provision that passes an overwhelming bipartisan majority. Our ratification of the n. A. T. O. Treaty decades ago was silent whether or not an american president could unilaterally withdraw america from n. A. T. O. Its no longer silent. We have amended the statute. An american president can no longer unilaterally withdraw us from n. A. T. O. Why was that done . I think its clear. [laughter] enlighten me. No. Before i have a followup question, but on a different topic, senator coons, but prince faisal, short reactions from you from what senator coons said and also what german Prime Minister. And i think whats important to note here is that there is general agreement and what we need to do is translate that agreement into concrete action. You know, minister very eloquently discussed the fact that peace and security for israel is intimately linked with peace and security for the palestinians and thats something that we have supported in the kingdom since 1981, the phased proposal for peace. Were fully on board. We believe the Regional Peace for israel, and only through peace through the palestinians and the palestinian state. Coons exactly the same sentiment and this is something that we have been working with the administration, theres a pathway to much Better Future there is a pathway towards a much Better Future for the region, for the palestinians and for israel. That is peace and we are fully committed to that. But again the first step for that is ceasefire. I will say that the ceasefire of course means ceasefire on c all sides that can only happen as a starting point towards a a permanent sustaine peace that can only happen through justice for the palestinian people. Thank you. I think also in that, it could even be recognition of israel from the kingdom. That was part of bigger political agreement. Senator coons, we had primary of china speaking this morning. Second largest economy in the world, 50 of the global economy. U. S. 25 of the global economy, almost 50 altogether. I think one of the few bipartisan topics in this is a view on china. But following President Biden and xi jinpings meetings over cisco during the apec meeting theres no broader understanding at least establish the kind of floor. So where do you see the relationship with u. S. And china in the next decade . Will it be as your president has said, extreme competition but also agreements on areas weathers, interests, or will not only be there but also in certain areas going into decoupling . Well, i think to a great depf our president ial election. I do think President Biden make some Real Progress in reducing the risk of military encounters in the South China Sea, of profound misunderstanding the refinement of different systems and values but were deeply interconnected economically. And reopening military to Military Lines of thehe medicatn to reduce the possibility of an unintentional conflict is a positive step. I believe xi jinping also heard there was a delegation of senators that went and he dedicated a great deal of time to a respectful engagement and hard about fentanyl and its consequences in our country where it is killing Church Numbers of americans, and that has been driving some of the anger at china is the nationally shared sense of grievance that the prc was taking no significant steps to reduce the production and exports to the United States of fentanyl. Substantive steps have been taken and that is a positive sign. We need to now figure out how it is that we can find areas of cooperation whether its on Climate Change on pandemics or on research while recognizing we will vigorously compe. We are each taking steps to constrain the other in terms of technology that are raising some concerns in conversations. But i think it is also worth being clear in terms of the International Rulesbased order china continues to do things in the Economic Zones of regional neighbors, in terms of constraining freedom of navigation, in terms of their view of International Flow of data, the plethora ofel International Property that concepts some concerns and issues. Also think that xi watches closely the worlds response to putins aggression against ukraine, and its important we in the United States continued to meet our commitments to ukraine, that we continue to work in partnership the 50 other countries that are determined to push back on the invasion of a neighboring sovereign country and that we continue our Work Together to find a way we can do risk this relationship the worl. The lack of trust between the south and the north. Some people would say it started, not ms. Sinema but it accelerated during covid where you saw that global south did not have access to the most effective the globalva seeing vaccination o third, fourth understood to vaccinate children and there were vulnerable groups notot having access to vaccines in the global south. So minister tuggar, nigeria one of the really big powers in the global south, you listen to the discussion of course so far, but is there a way that we can see we constellation between the north and the south . And what has to change from the north . Is anything that has to change from the south . And what would be the fundamental, fundamentals that this cooperation, the pillars of this cooperation will be built on . Is it national law . Very interesting to hear from the new Nigerian Administration on this. Well, what we have to do is to collectively practice what we preach. So the values that we uphold, democracy, rule of law need to be practiced, and we need to see them in practiced in the very decisionmaking bodies or entities for the planet. So to begin with, the u. N. Security council, it needs to democratize. Clearly, it is not fit for mentioned, is the large country. It is the most populous country on the african continent, has a population 229 people. Its nine people. Its going to be 400 by the year 2050. It belongs in the u. N. Security council, for instance, there are several other key decisionmaking with our without power . Permanent. But no more veto powers . We should do awayld with the veto powers. Clearly its clumsy, its networking, and again when you look at the Global Security architecture, it is impacted upon by such on democratic entitieses that influence decisions. Again, you have a situation were in the past when have bipolar world we have Mutual Ground diplomats to engage for diplomacy to be allowed to resolve issues, too preempt conflicts and diffuse them. We dont have that anymore. We no longer have austria the weight used to be or switzerland webinar today, scandinavia. When i was studyingrnational res ago we even had that the longer exists. So were increasingly seeing a situation where diplomats and diplomacy are taking a backseat, and disagreements are being securitized, and security chiefs, defense policymakers are taking the front seats. And, of course, for the guy with the hammer everything is a nail. So we end up with increasing conflicts. So we need to allow for, of course some of these things have to do with Global Financial situation, problems to do with the economy. So if a a Foreign Affairs minisy is not deemed to be a revenue generator, then, you know, one that maybe produces weapons and has more generations come so we really need to allow for diplomats to play a more Important Role when it comes to dialogue, when it comes to engagement tween countries, and thatga is missing. Thank you. Thank you very much, minister. First will come back ukraine but i asked senator coons a question about the u. S. And china but also the west and china. And last year secretary general of nato spoke about china. That was the first time ive heard. So i think nato of course is first and foremost transatlantic Treaty Organization looking at defending its member countries. But i think you also have enlarged also the things that you do address, and hold iraq to what senator coons said about u. S. Relationship with china and how do you think the west should deal with china . So first of all your right, nato is ael transatlantic alliance, europe and north america, and we remain a regional alliance. But the transatlantic region faces global threats, securities not longer regional. It matters for europe and what happens in europe matters for asia. And, therefore, of course we dont regard china as an adversary but china heavy investment in multimilitary chemicals including more and more bombs and nuclear weapons. China way of behavior especially in the South China Sea and the way china has actually violating Core Principles for nato, democracy, the rule of law, journalists, freedom of expression as weve seen in hong kong. All of that matters for nato. And we also have to understand this is not about native moving into asia but about the fact that china is coming close. Received in africa, we see them in the arctic, we see them try to control the critical infrastructure. Not some years ago we had a big discussion about 5g and many allie said this is only commercial issue. No, its also an issue of our security. So, therefore, for all these reasons of course nato has to address what happens in asia, not because we are a Global Security of lines but because of what happens and vice versa here japan and south korea are close partners of nato. They are concerned about what happens in i ukraine because i know that the more success putin has in ukraine, the more likely it is that beijing would use force. So we have to have a global approach even though we are regional countries, regional organizations. The world is interconnected and, of course, nato has taken a consequence of the. Thank you. We are at the session together this morning with president zelensky. Our ukrainians winning or would you say not losing the war in ukraine . The situation on the battlefield is extremely difficult. The russians are now pushing on many frontlines and, of course, the big offensive that the ukrainians launched last summer didnt give their soldier all they hope for every seo russia is not building up, how they are acquiring drones f from iran, actually building their own drone factory to produce their own drones in pakistan with help from iran, have a gift ammunition and Ballistic Missiles from north korea, and theyve also delisted high tolerance for casualties. So overall, russia is pushing hard, this is serious and we should not underestimate, we should never underestimate russia. Having said that, i really believe that it is also a cause for optimism. First of all we have to remember where we started. When this war started, back in 2022, then most experts believed that russia was going to take tm within days i control ukraine within weeks. That didnt happen. The opposite happened. The cranes pushed back, north, east the south by some, and they have made big military victories in thebl back seat, opened up te corridors and other able to export grain and other stuff through the backseat and you are seeing have been able to bolster the air force and the russian navy. These are big military victories for ukraine. The most important thing is that ukraine has survived as a sovereign independent nation. Which is a big win for them. And russia is losing, meaning that russia has lost what they wanted to achieve with the work, and that was to control ukraine. Ukraine, the people of ukraine have never trusted russia less than to do today at the want to be part of the west, of the European Union and nato and are closer than ever before. This is a big loss for russia. We have to support them. I am also quite confident nato alice will continue to support. Because support for ukraine is not charity. Support for ukraine is investments in her own security and, therefore, allies have provided unprecedented support. Now were ramping up protection there to aist in a group of to acquire close to 1000 interceptors for patriot batteries. One example how allies are stepping up to refill their own stock for ukraine in the future. We just have to stand by ukraine and at some stage russia will understand they are paying a two highpriced and sit down a and e need to justify peace. But we need to stand by ukraine. You also secretary general of nato produce intelligence that we heardhi this morning that russia has lost like more than 200 soldiers, half of their tanks in 300,000. Say that again . 300,000. 300,000, yeah, and half of their tanks, and half of their tanks. Of course also having severe impact on the economy. But with what you are hearing also as secretary general of nato, or the russians aware, do you think, that this war did not go as planned and are aware of all the casualties and, you know, for nation that has lost half of her tanks and 300,000 soldiers, thats not a minor thing. Is there something happening in russia, or is it just not . Im very careful predicting about both have war will develop. Wars are by nature unpredictable. Unpredictable. And an even more careful about what will happen inside russia. We saw last year crisis may happen but we donate any indications or anybody change insidea russia but, of course, there can be surprises. I didnt i think what really matters is what we do, and we just have to do whatever we can to increase. When dad lost 300,000 soldiers, casualties, thousands of armed vehicles, hundreds of tanks, this is something that matters for russia and for ordinary russians. Their economy is struggling. They are paying a High Economic price. They are not paying high politically and so what we can do is not to predict with certainty what will happen but what we can do is to just maximize the likelihood that at someha stage president putin will understand that continue this war will have two high of a price and then at some stage us to sit down and negotiate some kind of lasting peace were ukraine prevails as a sovereign independent nation. And the policies can want that to happen, a peaceful just into this work of the way to get there are more, is more weapons to ukraine. So the more credible we are in our military support, the more likely it is that the diplomats will succeed. Because what happens around the negotiating table with diplomats, its so closely linked to the battlefield. There are no indications that putin is planning for peace now but he will when he realizes that we will not give up, that we have the military strength to support ukraine, and then well sit down at the negotiating table. Thank you, gins. In the morning i think some it also said putin is the father of the modern ukraine. But minister elina of finland. I guess finland would not become a a nato member of the w wasntorr putins war on ukraine. Yeah, probably not. Weve never had a need for that though in favor for decades. We thought we would be able to defend herself and deter russia based on our strong known defense forces. But i have to say, i mean, in this narrative and perhaps also what my colleague from nigeria said, im not hugely proud of the finished history of independence at nothing to do with diplomacy. It was living next to huge neighbor who is not only unpredictable but aggressive, and weve had our past we had to defend our country againston aggression and invasion from the soviet union. Luckily, were able to remain independent, never part of the soviet union, but those two decades whereea we really have o constrain our sovereignty in order to remain thats not based on the u. N. Charter, right . I mean, every sovereign nation has the right to decide oncisely those People Living in those democracies, they have the right, that is exactly that the ukrainians are not fighting for because they decided continue to code the ukrainian people, and want to other european future. They want to have a future where each individual town, they can decide on the own future, and thats what we need to assist them because nobody wants to have come nobody wants to hug a world where only the strongest, the most powerful are to decide. And im sure that applies to nigeria just as much as it applies to the fight the people of finland. And only just finally, nato does not enlarge by force. It is the free people and democratic nations who choose to join. And that goes to finland, sweden just like anybody else and we didnt join because we want to threaten russia. Come. On, 5 million finns threaten russia. Come on, never happen in the future. Dont leave the narrative. We are there in order to protect our values and stand up for the u. N. Charter. You just told me you had to close aboard again towards russia for another month . Thats right. Well, yeah, weve experienced especially after the summer some increasing whats a safe harassment from russia. So now this hybrid operation going on where russia has not only let third country citizens in the finland across our border without valid documentation, but theyve also been, or with evidence that actively mobilizing those people direct from their original countries and thats not something we can accept as part of our sovereignty and territorial integrity. Placenta is not obvious to protect its own board but that of you and nato many of those people who have entered our country were criminals, war criminal records, and some of them, many of them state in finland. They have all of them asylum but many continue on towardsut the rest of the area and, of course, we cant have that happen. Time is up, but minister tuggar, i think he won a short reply, andep i would love to continue another half an hour but i learned in my political past that you should always in when people still want to continue. Im not sure all politicians stick to that, but minister tuggar and then i will do a very, very short closing. So real quickly, not reply, just a reaction. I spoke about finland within the context of a bipolar world. And waste to avert conflict. And in this case nuclear annihilation. So perhaps it was a price that we have toke pay, regrettable, t the point i was trying to make was the need for there to be neutral ground for diplomats, for countries to engage with each other to avert conflict. But i c couldnt agree more with the minister with regards to freedom of selfdetermination. Because what you described would apply exactly to palestine. They have the right if they have the right toig selfdeterminati, the samese way that finland t i dont want to keep on nitpicking, picking and choosing which conflicts to highlight. What is important is also that we pay close attention to proxy wars and actions, and the use of proxies to foment conflict in thirdparty nations. So this is something that is happening that we see increasingly, and unless the diplomats engage with each other you cannot take such attention but we need to go that back. Thank you very much, minister. Nc i feel privileged to have had the chance to moderate such a panel. Great leaders and their different fields. The title was as a set at the beginning securing and secure world. Think wek took a small step forward and at least establishing some potential pillars for what a more secure world could be. After you, minister from nigeria, also on the diplomacy, i think we need more diplomacy and not less diplomacy, and both in gaza, ukraine, u. S. , china, north and south east west. It doesnt hurt to talk. It doesnt hurt to have dialogue and that is what you are trying here in transit ive been asked three times the people why did we fight or . Why did we fight him in chre dont agree with them. Exactly, thats why theyre here because we can have dialogue. If you only then do with the people you agree with, then that would be conflicts, there will be no further understanding. And, of course, thats part of the all this information agenda pick up a look at something, just make sure that you look even more at something that is even more extreme than you look at maybe it wasnt extreme of all but it was a little bit edgy. So thank you very much to the panel. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Give them a big applause. [applause] [inaudible conversations] listen to programs on cspan2 cspan radio app just got easier. Tell your Smart Speaker play cspan radio and listen to washington journal daily at 7 a. M. 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