Transcripts For CSPAN2 Rabbi 20240703 : vimarsana.com

Was going to say old friends, longtime friends and great colleagues. And its a true honor to introduce them. Joining us to debut his brand new book this is its publication is the extraordinary rabbi dr. Meir soloveichik who was the rabbi at congregations harith israel on the west side. The oldest jewish congregation the United States and. Bye bye legend. And i embrace it. And im the final word. The first synagogue in the United States to offer kaddish for a non, in this case, abraham. So thats thats what linked us together, no pun intended. And thats how we became friends. We are thrilled to have him back. I dont know how the rabbi does all he does in to leaving a congregation. He hosts two podcasts, bible 365 and jerusalem 365. I dont know if one has ended and another has begun. Its still extraordinary, both of them amazing as guided tours as those you who know him can imagine. And he also serves as director of the strauss hunter for torah and western thought at yeshiva university, where he received his rabbinic before earning ph. D. In religion from princeton, i had the honor of coaching teaching with him at yeshiva and at cardozo law school, and they were exciting, stimulating experience for us and i hope for the students and if theres an explanation for my taking my with this introduction, its because as you can imagine, i barely got word in at yeshiva or cardozo, but it was still fun. Listen to the new book. As you see, i put it up there is providence and power and the subtitle you see ten portraits in jewish statesmanship. We may not get to all ten. Tonight, though i encourage you all to buy copies at our debut book signing for the book afterwards at a reception. As i said, the rabbi is sponsoring sushi and its cosponsored as well by the Hunter Center for jewish studies. The chapters range from the biblical david to disraeli, herzl, Louis Brandeis is into the modern era of bengurion and bagan. I know we will all be treated to something unique and memorable with the opportunity to. Explore this history through the and mind of such a brilliant and thought provoking interpreter. We are, as i mentioned, grateful to the jewish studies program, not only for the refreshments, but more particularly to its director dr. Leah garrett, the larry and Clara Silverstein chair in jewish studies, and hunter and the director of jewish studies and hebrew, her own terrific books include, ex troop the secret commandos of world war, which we featured here at roosevelt house and on cspan and the prizewinning winning young lions. How jewish authors the american war novel. So this should be an amazing conversation. There will be a discussion of about 40 minutes, followed by a q a. And for your questions, dr. Garrett will call on you. But please, i know you all have wonderful speaking voices, but wait for the microphone because we our zoom audience to hear all of the questions that you might pose and then well proceed to our reception and book signing. And with that, its a great privilege to introduce rabbi mayor soloveitchik encompassed with dr. Leah garrett on providence and our. Thank you, everyone for coming. And just to reiterate what harold said about president Jennifer Rabb, it is a its such an honor, honestly, to have been hired by her to work with her and to have at hunter such a fierce and proud and important defender of jewish students. And im just very delighted that in her last month here we get to do this event as well. So i usually dont bring you lists of questions, but i had so many questions. I want keep it organized here. So im going to were going to as harold said, were going to talk for about 40 minutes and then we will open up for questions from the audience. So first, if you want to, tell us briefly about your book because it did just come out for those who have not yet read it. And then ill ask you a of questions around it. Thank thank you so much for i want to thank you, doctor garrett. It was a joy. First meeting you and ladies. I went out with you along with the goldbergs who are here and im so delighted to be engaged in this conversation with you. I want to thank my very dear harold, who has been such a blessing. Such a blessing in my life for immediately when he heard about the book offering to host an event around it. And im, of course, delighted to the presence of the incredible neil calzado, who has been my editor in so many rounds for so many years, as well as in this book, as well, i want to also join you, dr. Garrett, and with and with harold and celebrating the incredible, incredible Jennifer Rabb and her legacy in academia and a genuine leader in standing up for the jewish people and such such a great privilege to mark that she has done for hunter in general and for roosevelt house particular, and for the of york and for the United States. And so im honored to be able to take part in this event during during her tenure. The topic of the book is, a providence in power, ten portraits and jewish statesmanship. And what it tends to do is to the lives of really 11 different significant political in jewish history. Its portraits. The final one involves two people. Its a contrast between bengurion and reagan and it seeks to understand lives and the uniquely jewish inspiration and motivation behind the achievements of king david, queen esther, queen shlomo, scion of the Second Temple period, yohanan, ben zaki, abarbanel or, abravanel, as some pronounce it, the Don Isaac Abravanel menashe up in israel. Benjamin disraeli, Louis Brandeis and and theodor herzl. And then finally bengurion and and what it to do is not only to their lives, but attempt to deduce from what they have in, while, of course, noting the differences oh, what is jewish statesmanship and what sets it apart from or statecraft in general. Thats the goal of the book. What does it mean to be a jewish statesman . What the jewish people or judaism or jewish history ask of a jewish political leader . Thats really the goal that we seek to. Answer here. Thats really the question that we seek to answer here in this book. And what was it about particular time period that made you want to write this book and write it now . Yeah. So the inspiration for the book actually in part began with the when i started, when i had the great blessing of teaching the course that harold mentioned. We taught together as, as he mentioned, a class on lincolns statesmanship as and we followed it chronologically and the small role that i played was to work on the impact that the bible may have had on lincolns statesmanship. It struck me as we as we taught this class and we were able to teach it both in the mens school and the graduate school, the womens undergraduate school, ishiba, and then a slightly different version at cardozo is, i began to ponder why i had never really taught a course that focused on the life of a of jewish statesman and really what texts existed that actually described the statesmanship or or the statecraft of jewish political leaders. There, biographies of, of course, certain modern jewish political figures, but beyond that there wasnt much. And i began to ask myself why that was. And i think part the answer is, or at least this is what i came to and i mentioned this in the introduction to the book is that even though the jewish intellectual corpus is is so broad and actually astonishing in its breadth from it covers throughout the centuries, it covers law and philosophy and theology, mysticism and biblical exegesis and so much else. There are two lacunae. One of them is biography so in the history of the west, really from the classical period on, there have been studies of great political and religious figures. So for we have plutarchs lives, for example, and then the realm of of memory or in the realm of autobiography we have say, augustines confessions. There was a there was a great talmudic scholar, modern scholar, rabbi aaron lichtenstein, who also studied a literature at harvard. And one of the things he said is that speaking about the great boswells great life of samuel johnson, speaking about the jewish intellectual, he said, our johnsons have no and as an example he gave it gave the case of the great rabbinic sage rabbi akiva who who led who lived and led in the second century c. E. And then took part in the berkeley on the failed macarthur rebellion. And according to the talmud, rabbi akiva was an ignorant shepherd until he was 40. And then his was changed by the inspiration of. A woman, rachel, who loved and he whom he loved in return. And so what rollyson said is imagine if we had a confessions from rabbi akiva that described his life, the way and the challenges he faced, the way the way we have and we have a an from augustine describing his path spiritual path. I mean you can imagine it today imagine if rabbi akiva today started as an itinerant at, you know, the age of 40 and then became a great rabbi thanks to his wife. Theyd write a bestselling memoir, you know, theyd gone oprah together, probably to tell about his life. Oprah could give everyone a free talmud. You know, you get a talmud, you get a talmud, and you get a talmud and it would be, you know, but we have nothing his we have an incredible legal from him and we have here and there are stories about his life in the talmud the the talmud tells stories but we dont have a systematic description. His life thats thats one lacunae. The other lacuna is political texts. We have incredible philosophical. Written throughout the written throughout jewish history and aside from the bible of course, which is a profoundly political work after that. What we dont is a text of political thought. We dont have a. A jewish version of machiavellis the prince, which would be very different if it were were a jewish version than machiavelli is the prince. We dont jewish works in statecraft, perhaps because jewish powerlessness or, perhaps because the jewish mind throughout the centuries focused on other subjects. But studies in statesmanship are not really part of of the larger corpus of jewish thought. There are exceptions. Im speaking in generalities, both about biography and about politics, and perhaps had my monitors had access in arabic to aristotles politics, the way, he had access to aristotles metaphysics and ethics. Maybe he would have written more significantly on political thought, but he didnt. And so i thought that this was this was a gap that i could at least humbly begin to fill with this book to study great jewish lives and to attempt to deduce from their lives what is jewish statesmanship itself. So this is a non humble question. Yeah. And then were to i mean, im a very handsome person, so its going to be hard for me to answer it. Yeah having gone through the journey of, writing this book and contemplating this for a while, what you makes for great political leaders. Yeah, so here is a the there i note several themes, several different aspects of great jewish political leadership, but the first one also can be seen actually lincoln because one of the things that came up in the course we taught together was a virtue that lincoln exemplifies that very great statesmen throughout the history of the west ever reflected. And that is humility. Now, what do we mean by humility we dont mean a sense of ones, but rather the remarkable nature of lincolns life, especially the civil war, is that he is constantly taking making these incredible decisions and yet is also reflecting in both public statements, in private musings, a, that hes part of some larger plan that he doesnt understand. He a line somewhere where he. After writing in a famous letter and harold were not to whom it was written, but he has a famous letter where hes describing what are the most things that a statesman has ever done. The emancipation proclamation, which was very daring. And then after explaining whole decision why he did it and when he it, he said Something Like, i want to also add that it is not i who have control events, but events who have controlled me, which seems like a very strange thing to say, because he is of course great political actor. One of the great political actors and when i was speaking about and i was thinking about this, so i asked my friend, my other historian friend, the british historian Andrew Roberts, when we were talking about churchill, whether he could think of any great europeans that had humility. And he didnt you couldnt name one. He couldnt name one. You know, churchill was a great man, but no one would ever describe him as he actually got into a fight with his butler. And then he said, his butler, you were very rude to me. And his butler said, yes, but you were very rude me. So he said, yes, i am a great man now. He thats and so. And yet rightly understood and that really is the why i chose the title that i did power and Providence Providence and is that at the heart of at least the ideal of biblical jewish leadership . Not everyone discussing the book exemplifies this feature at all times in their lives. At the heart of the book leadership to maintain this dialectic, to not be passive in any way but at the same time to feel that you are part of a larger plan that you cannot fully understand. And the greatest sign that you are part of this larger plan is the extraordinary miraculous nature of jewish history itself. When i was asked what be on the cover, one of the one of the images that i had thought of before we decided not to have any image was a that was taken of Menachem Begin at camp david during the camp david negotiations playing chess. Zbigniew brzezinski actual chess. Its a metaphor. And you know, i chose not to do it because didnt know how many people would remember Zbigniew Brzezinski today from a picture they they had thought that he that he and bacon would have a lot in common because they were both from poland. Thats why thats actually they put them together and i think it was bacons of staff the joke that they were poles. But but as i say the book really the challenge of jewish leadership to simultaneously play three dimensional chess which is the essence of statesmanship and yet to feel at the same time you are a mere pawn in a larger story and to believe both and the importance of jewish power but in the mysterious and the mysterious plan of providence. And if there are those in the book, like brandeis, who really never thought that much about providence, the case i make in discussing their stories is that their remarkable lives are of the greatest signs of providence itself, because their stories are so are so unlikely, at least as far as their role in jewish history is concerned. Thats true about brandeis. And that is, of course, especially true of theodor herzl. And its interesting you mentioned, Andrew Roberts, just a very side point, because im a huge Andrew Roberts fan, because i work a lot on World War Two and of all the great world war, two historians, he he is the greatest because he was the World War Two historian when he wrote about World War Two, he refused to bifurcate the holocaust out of the narrative. So whenever he talks about World War Two, unlike all the other history prints who talk just about that, he always springs in whats happening to the , the holocaust. Oh yes, he said, very important statements. Israel, too. Absolutely. And he noticed, he notes how how churchills. He the case actually that the fact that churchill was one of the few in his conservative circles that actually like made him more sensitive to the rise hitler than others. Yeah and he writes about it. So i want to talk about who you selected to include, because when i got the book, my first thought was that i had a list in my head of who i would see. And i was thinking, of course im going to see golda meir. I dont see golda my hair, i see esther. So if you can talk the sort of process selection of picking these as the ones you wanted to talk about. Yeah. So the question about esther is, is really good question. And, and why i chose her, one might think, well, would one really choose someone was, you know, dragged to palace by a very vulgar king and who faced one single choice that we read about in the megillah in the book of esther as a as an embodiment of statesmanship. And why would you pick her. Over some other candidates who are clearly, clearly wielded more independently and for a longer period of time than . She did. And the answer is, i think that i make i make the case that not only is esther a significant political figure, but that in a real sense, jewish statesmanship is born with her. I argued this in an op in the New York Times about esther as well. And what i mean by that is the following. Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik has noted that what sets the book of esther apart from. The other books of the bible is that this is really the first one where not only is the voice god silent, god doesnt appear in the book, but that that reflects a larger point, which is that prophecy is coming to an end here. And so what is politics throughout much of the bible much of the bible, whenever politics comes up, is the king is told by the prophets, you should do this. And then usually after king doesnt do that, the king is then asked by the prophet, why didnt you do that. The prophet well, in astonishing acts of fearlessness, will walk into the throne room and say theyll say a so lord nathan walks into throne room after after his sin with bathsheba and accuses him right there elijah to speak of confronts a much more wicked king ahab and confronts him shall you murder and inherit. But that also means that the right course. Is always there. You are told what to do, esther is the first character in the bible who. Not only faces the question of what to do without spiritual advice. She actually rejects the sole advice that she gets, which is from her cousin mordechai. There is a decree against the. And if you can summon the imagination to believe it, there is a regime in that is hostile to the jewish people and and the are targeted for genocide. And mordechai her cousin, who is clearly a member of the larger of the king, tells her to do what a prophet would do to storm into the throne room and and weep and cry and plead for her people and esther essentially says and even though mordechai is the one who inspires her to action, she points out, she doesnt take his advice. She says, im not going to do that because. Ahasuerus the king is a mercurial man who doesnt want to be embarrassed and very suddenly, you know like our friend Joseph Stalin over here, who just for the camera, is our friends at. And. And if she walked in and said, ive been lying to you this whole time, im actually jewish, please save my people. It would have ended with her dead as well. And what she does is she actually practices realpolitik and and and and creates a set of situations in which she knows the man that she is seeking to persuade, she plays on his. Turns him against his vizier haman by inviting the three of them, the two, all three of them to get together for a romantic dinner for three, which is akin to a wife inviting her husband and her husbands best friend for a 50th wedding Anniversary Dinner turns him against him and and then at the right moment strikes and i think she is the independent political actor in in the bible and therefore in jewish history. So i think shes actually the inventor, as it were, of of jewish politics as we know it. And so thats why i give her the credit that i seek to give. And just to follow up on that, if you could unpack a bit more sort of broadly about if you are if you think theres things about, the jewish experience or jewish religion that lend a lend actors the ability to be good statesmen and stateswoman. Yeah. So of course there is first and foremost the feeling of the that providence may have placed upon what the fame. The most famous statement, perhaps of of the book is what mordecai says to esther or the eight casualty got by mahmoud, who knows. But for perhaps for this moment, you came to the throne. And there are, of course, throughout jewish history like this, where so much weighs on a single moment. Of course, we dont always know when that moment is. And so and so judaism wants us to be constantly that a single decision we make can have repercussions far beyond, far beyond, far beyond that which we can can, you know, that we might actually realize. One of the stories i love to talk though this is doesnt fit in the book because this is not a is of course the story of Eddie Jacobson the who i see a congressman now theyre nodding and so thank you so much for coming on Congress Another and and its one of the Great Stories im happy you like it as. Well you know this is Eddie Jacobson was of course, the man who happened to be running the canteen with lieutenant truman during world war one. And then they go into a failed haberdasher a business together. And its only because that haberdashery, the canteen, did really well. Truman wrote to bess i have a helping me to run canteen, and he has crackerjack, as David Mccullough notes, as if thats like his sole resume recommendation to run the canteen and it fails, truman becomes part of, you know, the political machine and and and, of course, they stay friends. And at a critical moment when truman is on time. Weitzman is desperate to meet with truman because marshall wants to undo the partition plan. Its Eddie Jacobson gets him in the door. Someone came from missouri, a once said to me Something Like, you know, if Eddie Jacobson had treated truman badly in that haberdasher business, there might not be a state official today. And of course the story is both a story of individual actors who seize the moment that providence is placed for them. But it is of a story of providence as well. The two of them are together in world war one. Fdr is on his plane, is on a train to. The 1944, a democratic convention, and he says, you know, they ask him who do you want to be your Vice President . And he says i dont know. You know, maybe douglas maybe truman and at least according to one version of events cited by mccullough, the head of the Democratic National committee, has that written up and tells the secretary to switch truman and douglas and put truman first so that that letter will be handed out at the Democratic National convention. How can you not believe in providence and so too constantly if you are aware providence then you are aware of moments that may define your entire legacy. And thats a theme that, of course, once throughout the bible, but i attempt to find it throughout jewish history. Thank you and i was thinking when you were discussing these different figures. Im going to dive more deeply into some of them a second. I was thinking when i wrote my book about jewish commandos. Yeah, when i started the journey of writing that book, i cared very deeply, for all the men i was writing about, because they were incredibly heroic and interesting. But then over the year or two, it took to write the book. By the time i got to an end of it, there were some that was just so fond of and they felt they were part of my family and had that kind of impact on me. Living with them, thinking about them, writing about them for a year. And im wondering when when you went through this, were there any particular that as you ended the book you thought that they had become sort of part of you, part of your family . You felt that very deep, unexpected with them. And why . Yeah. So when i of course, wrote the book originally, i knew i would end with Menachem Begin because Menachem Begin is is a hero of mine my friends think that my next podcast will be begin 365 daily podcast about the life. Menachem begin and i also own begin socks which i wear as often as possible on our treasured possession of mine, but the the figure that i knew. There are two figures that i wrote about that one that i did not know that much about. And still i started researching that person. And then there was one that i had known a lot about but had not thought about the jewish legacy as much. The, the, the, the latter was benjamin disraeli, who was impossible, i think, not to like, of course, his jewish identity, extremely complex. And we talk about that separately as. Well talk about that. And then is a woman who is mentioned in this book and is discussed in a chapter who i think very few know about. And thats the Second Temple queen, Shlomo Shalom theon is her most important legacy and this is very important for me as a student of royalty. Swansea honors, the only queen regnant in jewish history she was she reigned as an independent queen, not because she was married to the king, though she was married at one point to the king aside from the the biblical figure natalia, who usurped the throne and who everyone in my family knows call a talia the user. But but but. Shalom theon, you have to imagine we know little about who she was before she became. But we do know this she marries Hasmonean King at the time, the time when the hasmonean dynasty has fallen to fratricidal rage and hatred. She marries a man who kills i think one of his brothers and puts the in prison that husband dies. She then in leverett marriage. Marries one of the other brothers and she chooses who shes going to marry. And she is so clearly remarkable all that when that king is dying even though they have two sons who really are meant to succeed them. He appoints as the independent ruler and those nine years are seen by the talmud that reigned as really the sole golden age of the entire Second Temple period. Second temple period, of course, was largely. One in which there was an independent jewish government. There was a brief monarchy under under the hasmonean before it fell. Rome and those nine years where shes working by side with the pharaohs leader shimon ben shabtai are seen by the talmud as a golden age. And its shes both the subjects alluring because shes the one that we know the least about and yet she is beloved by rabbinic judaism probably probably the most beloved woman in talmud and certainly most celebrated and one of the most celebrated political figures, the talmud. Its actually hard to think of a political figure post the bible that is loved more male female in the bar in the talmud than shalom seattle. And so i tried to piece together based just on we know from the talmud and from whos not as big a fan of as the talmud. What do we know about her and . What is her legacy . And her legacy today is just that she has a street named after her in jerusalem. Actually, the street was originally named after as royalty would know the street was named after a george the fifth wife, queen mary, because that was one of the Balfour Declaration that reign as their reign the Balfour Declaration place. But israel decided that even though they would keep record of her, george, they did keep king george street. They changed queen mary street to a jewish. They chose the one queen. They chose the one queen, jewish queen regnant in jewish history. And her partner, the talmud, refers to him as her brother, shimon, ben shabtai, the two streets intersect in jerusalem and. Its in their honor that the some of the best restaurants, jerusalem, are planted right there, greatest honor that can bestow is the restaurants there. But aside from that, if you asked anybody who is this 20 fiona, why is a street named after her . Unless youre a student of the talmud, you know, and even if you are a student at home and you would just know that the rabbis like her a great deal. But why . And im a huge fan of something on and the book gave me the opportunity to to really read the book began as lectures at the tikvah fund gave me the opportunity to, really research her life to the best of, my ability so yeah so i teach hunter undergraduates students courses on modern jewish culture American Jewish culture. Always discuss what makes someone jewish. Last semester i taught catcher in the rye by j. D. Salinger as a jewish novel. This mother was jewish. She was jewish. He served in students, really pushed back against it. And i taught kafka to and israeli, of course, was baptized. And its a very interesting choice. And im always so interested when we make these choices in particular in regards to putting him with this incredible of jewish statesmen. Yeah. How how you him whats jewish about and how you look at it. Yeah. So this is one of my favorite subjects and. I read a lot of british about biographies of british statesmen and. There are, of course, a lot of books about israeli. Most of them do not focus heavily on his jewishness. One does, and im so delighted recognize the author of that book, which is adam kirsch, who wrote an amazing book on. Disraeli im sorry. Yeah, youre welcome. But thank you. And that i had read that long before i worked on this book, but it stuck in mind and without if i could have the hot spot to quote adam for a second, adams one of adams theses, i think is that disraeli lee rather than seeking to renounce his jewishness actually made in his jewish heritage a centerpiece of his entire political his entire his entire political status in in britain i think was the way adam describes it is is that disraeli took the aspect of himself which could have been his greatest political and turned it into strength. I think adam calls it jujitsu. I think as i think he calls, which and thats exactly what did its all the more remarkable, though, because disraelis father, who of course, left the spanish and Portuguese Jewish Community in england because they had the chutzpah to ask him to serve as one of the president s staff, to serve on the board of the congregation. I mean, im burying part that if the rule there was that if you refuse to serve being asked you have to pay a fine. You get fined for not serving on the board. And so he just left. But the amazing about about disraeli is that his father isaac disraeli was really selfhating and. He wrote a book a work called the genius of judaism, in which his thesis was that have wasted the jewish intellect on things like the talmud, like like rabbinic judaism, that their lives were a waste and the irony is, is that he clearly in baptizing his 12 and a half year old son and just a few months before his sons bar mitzvah, he was clearly preparing his son to be a fully assimilated and. Yet what he was creating was a Prime Minister who because he was baptized, would be able to actually take part in the parliament and would not only place at the heart of his political identity, his jewishness, but he would go out of his way to remind britain and the entire what they owed the so famously in the debate about letting into parliaments at a time when the entire rest of the conservative party, except for one other member, was against allowing into parliament and the whigs other party, palmerstons party were in favor. Disraeli gave a speech arguing that should be let into parliament, but not based just on equal rights, which is, of course, a pretty good argument in itself, but based on what christianity owes judaism. And as he turned just to imagine him, this very jewish young man at the time, standing in parliament and having the hot spot as a baptized to say and he literally says these words where is your christianity if not for their judaism. And then he goes on to write this strange and fascinating novel among others to read about a christian aristocrats who journeys to to the holy land and goes to mount and is told that basically all of the world needs the revelation of sinai, that that the to the world. So if someones running for for someones trying to work his way as disraeli put it up the greasy pole you wouldnt necessarily recommend to write a novel like that but he did but he did. And so what that means is that his views about god and providence were its really not clear and actually the next biography of that Andrew Roberts is going to be publishing on is hell be publishing a biography in 2026 on disraeli. Actually. So im excited about that. But what he did have was a deep sense of of what the west owed the jewish people and perhaps even more importantly what he had a deep sense of foreboding about. What would happen to the west if they cut themselves off from the hebraic biblical message . And thats by placing that at the very center of his political identity. He deserves to be recognized and analyzed as a jewish statesman, very interesting. Thank you. Im going to ask just a couple more questions. Sure. Well it up. So can you talk us about herzl and brandeis and sort of what they offer us about the complexities of jewish identity, particularly in in terms of american in the european context . Yeah. So each one is is is a story that really on its own doesnt make much sense. Herzl, of course, is whose story more people whose eye in the story, more people know is a man whos lives in assimilated jewish life in vienna and then as a journalist in paris and is suddenly seized a deep sense of the antisemitism in in europe. Not as most people think, because of the dreyfus affair. But as others know really because of the election of karl luger, hitlers hero as mayor of vienna. But he suddenly gets into his head that he is going to create this movement. Now, there were zionist, of course, before herzl, but herzl makes statesmanship the centerpiece of zionism. He creates a zionist congress, and he says, if you want us to be recognized, a people with political aims, we have to act like that. We have to be able to come in to the courts, kings and emperors and popes, and speak on behalf of the jewish people. But remember, this is a man who goes when hes seized with the idea of the jewish state and publishes the jewish state, he speaks to the rabbi, the chief rabbi of vienna chief rabbi of vienna comes to see him and he finds that theres a Christmas Tree in Theodore Herzls house. Thats where he was at this point. Thats where he was. And then he begins this mysterious journey and dies, you know, a couple of years, the 20th century. But he writes at in basel, as hes sitting in that hotel room and you can all stay in the same hotel where he stayed. Its called the herzl river room. D so it theres it. Est in im happy to tell you the herzl river room has a minibar and and Swedish Technology and, and he writes in there in, basel i created the jewish state and people may not know it, but in five years or in 50 years, everyone will see it. And then essentially the state of israel comes into being 50 years later. So his story and i examine the source of his feelings about his jewishness. But the argument i ultimately is that, again, only providence explains this story. People often attempt to argue the opposite, that the fact zionism comes from a man who has emerged as something so secular, as someone so secular, that you can draw opposite conclusion, but thats not my view. I often quote there is there was a a jewish philosopher at columbia who said who is well known as an and then at the end of his life and he was suffering he said something, why is god doing this to me . Just because i dont believe in him and and part of the incredible story of herzl is that actually, as he describes in a less wellknown piece of than the jewish state. A short story that he wrote called the menorah is, that the jewish state was only the beginning of his journey. And he came to discover his jewishness and, to marvel at the mystery of jewish existence. Now, brandeis is fascinating because he is in a certain the opposite. He only grew up with no jewishness whatsoever. He never really embraced judaic. Judaic. I and certainly not jewish observance. He was cremated at the end of his life. Brandeis and he and his brother used to send each other. Im not making this up. Christmas hams for christmas. Not just hams, but house for christmas. Thats what they they would they would they would send that to each other. And theres letters i think where he writes, im really looking forward to the christmas have this year in maybe least jewish sentence that one could ever possibly write and and except for maybe im hungry and and this is a man who grows up in louisville with with with assimilated jewish parents and even way way back if you trace back he comes not traditional hes a descendant of franks which are these strange sebastian sect of and he descends from those. Thats louis. Thats thats louis. Brandeis. But he has one exposure to jewish observance, which is his uncle. Louis attempts, and he later changed his name to include them. Thats the louis de brandeis. Louis de brandt, that louis de brandeis is louis dambudzo brandeis. And what made them of fascinating he was a lawyer in louisville is that he wasnt only first of all he was someone who was a prominent republican in the 1860s and was involved the campaign to elect lincoln president was a prominent antislavery spokesman in kentucky, which was not a the used the usual and he was also an incredibly observant. I cite in the book a eulogy or an obituary written for him in, a nonjewish and the prominent nonjewish louisville about what an incredible american he was, but also an observant he was how he didnt do any business on shabbat. He wouldnt even open letters on shabbat. Or, as the paper put it on, on the sat on a sabbath. He could always be found at his local church. So and as i describe in the book, brandeis was convinced that to truly be an american. One must essentially amputate your your jewish identity yourself. He was he was fond quoting the tr that we dont need hyphenated we dont need americans which is you know and he and he meant that when he said that as a warning to the who are coming from Eastern Europe immigrating that they needed to shed all that made them strange whenever he i always said that whenever i see that phrase the hyphenated americans im always reminded though of the great line from yogi berra when he was a a spokesman for the drink you who and someone called the the factory and asked and he or the the the the business and he up and they asked theyre calling to find that you who was carbonated. It was vue who was hyphenate and he says no maam, its not even it was this line. So so but to be a actually is to always maintain hyphenated identity. Actually, because of course, are supposed to be loyal to the country in which they find, especially if that country is welcoming to them. And have always been loyal to america that, treated them as equals, and yet the greatness of america actually in the fact that that hyphenate americans, as it were, is exactly what american conception of liberty expects us to be. I cited in the book that one of the earliest members of my congregation, jonahs phillips, when he wrote a letter to the constitutional convention, he writing to complain. He wrote to complain. Its the first time in jewish history that a complains. And 17, 18 and 1787, he complained that there were state laws that prohibit from serving in state legislatures in especially and he he demanded equality and he dated the letter this was to the constitutional convention. He wrote Something Like 26 law phi five. You know what the jewish state and then he wrote september 87. Whos he adding that jewish state for . George washington. I mean, who he writing it for . He had the jewish and then hes like, and if you want the jewish, heres the United States. But he meant to say, of course, im not amputating this from who i am. And and brandeis meets this. A man who had been herzl secretary who came interview him about insurance law, not about zionism. And separately he just as they were driving, he was driving this man back to the station in cape cod. He says this secretary de haas herzl secretary asked brandeis, by the way, are you related to lewis and he says, yes, that was my uncle. I really admired him. And he says, well, you know, lewis lamberts was a very prominent zionist and that just inspires him to think this over and goes from that to effectively the american head of the Zionist Movement by 14 and then while hes a Supreme Court justice becomes one of the most significant lawyers for the Balfour Declaration, i can imagine a Supreme Court justice lobbying the president on anything. Imagine what the conspiracy theorist say if they lobbied around israel, but hes lobbying on behalf of his people. And so his story is even more remarkable in a certain sense, because its a chance conversation at a train that sets him on this course, a course that in which he not only, i think better what it meant at least to be part of the jewish people. He also, i think, gained a deeper appreciation of what it means to be an american and i think thats an absolutely amazing, i believe, providential story. Thank you. I have so many more questions, but i would like to share the floor with our audience so were going to pass around mike and so well do a few questions and then were going to wrap well have a book signing and a reception and sushi. I dont know if that was mentioned, but so we have to do quick questions that we have time to get a few and judging by the figures that youve cited that you selected, it seems that one of two things are highlighted contradiction of the contradiction, the fundamental contradiction of being jewish and jewish and whatever state theyre in. And then also the issue of theres internal and statesmanship and theres external states, right . Where play a role outside of the jewish experience, then play a role within the jewish framework. Can you talk . I dont know what the question is exactly. Yeah. Can you talk about that. I think thats seems to be. Oh, thats a great question. Thats an excellent question, sir. Thank you. Thats that question is especially relevant with the figures that represent the jewish people at a time of jewish powerlessness which of course actually the question what is jewish statesmanship during a period of jewish powerlessness . So thats certainly relevant to the siege. Yohanan zaki, who effectively sets course for rabbinic judaism following the fall of jerusalem. Talmud describes. His lobbying roman leadership for the right to create an academy in yamina, but also for the right to keep alive the jewish political structure that was linked to the house of hillel, to the patriarchal house of hillel. And so what those stories actually from study of statesmanship are in a certain even more fascinating because they focus on the the statesman keeping in his or her mind both what is owed the jewish people, but also how best to engage the nonjewish political world. So whether youre johann zarco thinking both the question, how do i preserve judaism . The worst event in its history history, and also how do i flatter roman authorities and impress them and ask for just enough because if i ask for too much, i may get nothing. And then to give a different example, what does it mean to be done . Isaac abarbanel where you are in the court of ferdinand and isabella of aragon or castiel, and youre lobbying for your people who about to be expelled, and you are speaking simultaneously a state man who has served in the courts of portuguese spanish royalty, and also as one of the most brilliant, executes and rabbis in jewish history, as well as a descendant of king david. What does it mean to balance all that and when do you focus on your gifts as a member of the court . And when do you focus on your davidic heritage . And thats a question i tease out in the book. So in a certain sense, these are the most interesting statement of all, because at its core, statesmanship is an engagement with those in power on behalf of ones people. One can be the person in power, or one can be the representative of ones people engaging those in power. Whether youre talking about soccer or whether youre theodore and with figures like that there is that delicate balance that you describe. And so not only do we see great exemplars of statesmanship, we assert we see a certain depth and complexity that you wont necessarily with a king of israel in the bible or a Prime Minister of israel in modern times. And we have time for. One more question. A rabbi can we talk about the here and now for a second . Im wondering your reaction to the cuny law commencement speech . Well, thats not our subject. Obviously, i would. I would i would condemn antisemitism in all its forms. And and, of course, see in it a a terrible warning sign and a danger sign of of what exists in some realms of the academy, which is, of course, why i am so honored and delighted to be hosted in jennifer arabs. Hunter college and to sing her we will take one more question about the book. Yeah, lets do one more question about the book. Yes, here we go. Theres a mike coming. How do you see jewish law affecting these leaders . Because some of them are reforms. Im a borderline christian. Some are very orthodox. How you think it seems to transform the jewish thought . Yeah. So jewish plays a real role in some of the figures here. So when we talk and not just the rabbis. So obviously is a one central drama concerning which is when Isaac Abravanel is asked by the family to stay in spain and to convert, which is exactly what one of the other leading of the era, abraham siniora, did. And of course, he famously refused, though everything would have been open to him. And i cite that as one of the greatest moments in his life. But jewish law is, i think, one of the most interesting and undiscussed subjects in the story of shlomo cohen, because, of course, there is, on the one hand, these deep tensions within judea at the time between that are advancing different versions of judaism forsaking judaism and and then sadnesses, but then when solution becomes queen, its at that point in the during the era of of the sage shimon ben shatter that what has strengthened is that at that moment is the protection of women in marriage. Its at that point that the katiba is invented, and its at that point that families are strengthened through the creation of incredible of education. And i theorize that what you have here is this Incredible Alliance between shlomo zion and rabbinic law, that in protecting women in marriage and the jewish family actually set the stage for the survival of judaism in the much less good years that follow because its all downhill after shalom theon passes away the civil war between the hasmonean brings rome into judea. And then you know what happens next . So there. So you will find some that will make that for whom . Jewish law plays very little role their lives. And i theorize there that the remarkable nature of their story are themselves signs of providence. But the interesting fact is that its actually. As much as if as much as rabbi Don Isaac Abravanel or rabbi ben zaki. It is a jewish queen that i think emerges as one of the great heroes of jewish law, not just of of of the jewish people in book and if in any way i can advance her that alone would be an achievement that would make me very happy. So i want to thank you so much and i hope that you too. I to thank everyone for coming. Thank you. It means a lot to me. Thank you. Thank you thank you. And were going to join rabbi soloveichik will sign copies of this incredible book. So purchase it and he will sign unless you want to wait for the movie, unless you want to wait for the movie. Also thank i forgot to thank harold in the roosevelt house yet again hosting us. So thank thank you, harold, for