Transcripts For CSPAN2 State 20240705 : vimarsana.com

Ith private sector partners. We have managed to support 15,000 Women Farmers to grow strategic crops fruits and vegetables them to market. As commented on, we have supported distancelearning programs that have provided some access to education for afghan girls and weve managed to work in the Healthcare Industry particularly training women doctors and midwives to be able to meet those needs as well. It is challenging. It is not easy and it requires all of our creativity and all the creativity of our partners but we are doing our best to make sure even under these circumstances come afghan women and girls are not left behind. I have 20 more questions but my time is expired so i will, yield back to make room for my colleagues. Thank you very much, Ranking Member manning. And of course i look forward to your questions being submitted at a later time which is part of the rules that we will be very happy to provide them. As we proceed i recognize myself and in my Opening Statement i mention how grateful i was that i had the opportunity to have the service of the guard led by Bob Livingston with my younger son Taylor Wilson is an engineer at afghanistan and i saw the country involved. The firs went there it was total rubble. There was no traffic. There was just one lane of traffic with rubble everywhere. And the consequence of the soviet murderous occupation which achieved nothing except mass slaughter for the people of afghanistan. With that though i saw a hopeful society developing and it was so inspiring to see little girls with white scarves freely walkingee to school. Little guys walking along with baseball capsba to school. It was really inspiring. And then one of the most inspiring things that i saw in a area of the country with a sign directing where a school is located. It was a rusty sign and a happy hand clasped of a u. S. And afghan flag together, and if people didnt appreciate it, as i mentioned it was rusty. They had every opportunity to take it down but there was a lot of pride and thats why to me, the surrender is more horrific because i saw what our military did, what our allies did. Forty to 50 Different Countries meeting with troops in bulgaria over and over again our british so muchs ne was done to be abandoned and thats my sadly to me on august 26, 2021, the president made a really sad speech explaining americas surrender and he claimed milary leaders supported his decision and he added a praise and he had letters in that night i respectfully sent a letter to the president requesting copies of the letters he claimed. On numerous occasions and again today i will be sending a letter asking for copies of the letters, because weve never received a response, and thats an insult to our military, to military families and to the American People. It just needs to be answered. This is so important. Its inexcusable with the progress that americans and the lives lost but the progress that was made to abandon it based on the letters that have never been revealed. With that, following the surrender to the taliban in afghanistan they were forces that indicated rapid resurgence of terrorist groups operating in the safe haven of afghanistan. Do you have an assessment of the number of recognized terrorist organizations and offshore groups and we know they changed theirho name every day so please, how many different groups are there, and there are some who are taliban supportive data some who are not but they all have a goal death to america. So what are we doing what are they . The group mr. Chairman, we worry most about is the isis offshoot in afghanistan. Just in the days leading up to the fall of the republic, the taliban i think unbeknownst to them but they opened up some jail cells and allowed some 1800 of them released. And we saw throughout much of 22 devastating attacks against afghanai civilians. That is a group that harbors clear intent to attack foreign countries. I think you probably saw the isis k claimed responsibility for the attack that took place in iran. We have no reason to doubt that claim of responsibility. They have launched a text against toshiko stan and also is pakistan and they have as i said ambition to strike the United States and the west as well so we worry about that group. When it comes to al qaeda as i said in my Opening Statement the lowest Operational Capability since 1996. That is also true we believe that they have a very low Operational Capability. This group that is based in afghanistan but really is seen an uptick on the Pakistani Forces im very worried about that group. Its something i spoke about with pakistani leaders when i visited last month for regional stability and for our own interests and pakistans stability we should hope for concerted efforts to eliminate that group inside afghanistan. Indeed. Ive been to islamabad and pakistan has been over the years a country that we have worked with closely for them to be a positive development. But im concerned about al qaeda itself, and that is the perpetrators of mass murder at the world trade center, pennsylvania at the pentagon. Al qaeda currently is this correct, has two provincial governors, a Deputy Director of Intelligence Directorate and several administrative defense personnel, and is that true thata al qaeda is so positioned in the government . Im not aware of that, no. Please look into that, because thats the reports weve got. Im equally concerned how bizarre this is. The Afghan Central Bank or directors included three taliban members who were sanctioned by the United Nations including the director Deputy Director. How can we count on afghan funds being transferred to the people but being diverted to support the dictatorial regime . That is accurate that there areth pieces of the leadership of thee central bank that are sanctioned taliban members and that is why among many other reasons we think it would be deeply irresponsible to seek to recapitalize the Afghan Central Bank. That is why we do not work through the taliban it is bipartisan. We want you to succeed. But the thought of the different programsth going to a dictatorial regime and authoritarian regime the money is fungible, so every effort should be made. We are very fortunate to have as i mentioned bipartisan. We have been joined by the Ranking Member of the full committee so we would be happy to recognize you. I appreciate you from the great state of South Carolina. Thank you, chairman, again for convening this very important hearing and im glad that this committee will give us the opportunity to discuss afghanistan policies with members of the administration tasked with the policies and implementations. Let mert start by thanking all the witnesses for their appearance and work that youve done in a tireless manner on behalf of the American People. When i look at what you do on a regular basis, to me often times those who do the type of policy work that you do are always underappreciated and i want to take this opportunity to thank you for your work and what you do on a regular basis. And last, and i stated last november i believe it was that we are not under any illusions about who or what is. Thats something we are all very clear on. But i also believe we have to be very strategic about how we pursue our goals in the uniquely challenging environment. We have that kind of environment we are confronted with and how we engage where it serves our interest and helps the people of afghanistan and our Foreign Policy for the people of the United States of america. So and what im trying to do and want to make sure that im clear that i am expressly concerned about the impact of the talibans control over afghanistan particularly on women and girls of that country that is something that is very, very important to me. And i know, and ive been an advocate for being comprehensive about the entire twoyear period that we were in afghanistan under each and every administration from the obamaev administration through the Trump Administration of course the biden administration. But i know that it was during the Trump Administration when the agreement was made and Administration Officials at the time suggested to congress that the taliban views on women and girls had changed. Where do you see the potential opportunity to advance the rights of women and girls in the country as we speak . Thank you representative, if i might take the question. Thank you for putting the situation of women and girls on the spotlight. It is one it is the worst situation in the world. Theres no country in the world that deprives girls of education beyond secondary level. And it is a situation that we have called attention to and in our public statements at every level of our leadership. In terms of what drives the taliban, the taliban would like to make the claim that this is basedd on religious grounds or cultural grounds. Those have been countered by muslimmajority countries who have said this is contrary to the practices of any islamic country and encounter bid the afghan population that have roundly condemned the practice of the taliban and men and women, tribal communities elders families, fathers said they want their daughters educated and they want them to be able to have the opportunity to work. Afghanistan is a country that is driven more by pragmatism than moby ideology and certainly not the extreme ideology that the taliban present. The ways that we support afghan women and girls is first we amplify the voices of afghan women themselves. They are their best advocates. They are their strongest advocates. Not only do we amplify but we encourage every country that is working on afghanistan to make sure that they include afghan women when they are engaging in the situation in afghanistan. We encourage everyone to the tell the taliban that so long as they continue these practices there will be no Movement Forward and no normalization of relations. It is critical to empower afghans themselves which will ultimately be the force that change their policies. The taliban say they are going to ignore the International Community, they cannot ignore the Afghan People. We appreciate your work. Thank you very much, congressman greg mason. The Ranking Member, so grateful we are proud natives of South Carolina but hes really done well. He represents queens. We are really proud. Othank you mr. Chair. Afghan veteran i would openly state that i think i would draw afghanistan with abject failure the worst in our history, im a history teacher. The according to the january 5th, isis based if afghanistan was responsible for the most recent suicide bombings that killed nearly a hundred people. Reports that the taliban and alqaeda leaders withdraw and of course, we know they are easily over 20 terrorist base for training in afghanistan that we know of. All that said, in october we looked at the Afghan Government, analysis planat to become formally part of the chinese belt and Road Initiative and request to become part of the china Pakistan Economic corridor. The taliban according to my information testified in november that 37ngos reported that they provided 10. 1 million in taxes and fees to the taliban. Thats from us. Mr. West when you said, quote alqaeda has i the lowest all those things i just stated are still true. It doesnt diminish the fact that they are building a presence thats literally inar contrast to every single thing enwe are trying to achieve both in afghanistan and globally in our Strategic Initiative in my opinion. And the other thing that you said, i think, im paraphrasing on this, you did an excellent job to responding to cigar responses to their questions but theres a big difference between a response and being responsiveg and i want to go over a couplere of things that have been presented to me as evidence of why i think it is in contrary with what you just stated. We have 30 outstanding requests for information by the state that you have fully to comply with that affects the ability of cigar through initiatives. The states rationale for not providing thisth information seems pr unreasonable to me at least and in some casesas blatantly observed because it is suggested to abstruck cigar itself and seems to be coming from my own state. Why would we possibly have a reason to obstruct the very agency that we appoint today get to the bottom of the problem . Why would we work against ourselves for accountability . Make no sense to me. They even used the freedom of information act exemption to justify withholding information from the auditor. Makes no sense to me. I would like your response on that. I will pile on here. I have to get this all out. I didnt understand why the department has now placed the restrictions on the classified information and everything else. I dont understand. We an obviously bad actor. The state is literal i will saying i dont want you to have the response you need or the information that you need to do your job can you do your job . Thank you these are important questions. We dont want any information about implementing partners out there in the Public Domain thats going to put a target on ll them inside afghanistan. When you say implementing partners what are you referring to . Im not going to get into specifics. The organizations we rely onto deliver humanitarian aid. Cigar has a job. We respect. We want to be sure if they want to talk directly to our implementing partners that they expect the absolute sensitivity of that information because if they publish it, the taliban can read and they can then target those organizations for their activity. Thats one example you know, as i said to the chairman i will look into the 30 outstanding requests. Its a fair question. Let me turn to my klieg on this question as well. Sure. To add to what special representative west offered you know, we fully agree with the importance of oversight and i accountability for all of our work. We are fully cooperating. Weve had Something Like 370 so engagements with cigar over the past year or so. I will get you the exact number. We have teams here in washington and with our Afghan Affairs unit overseas that are dedicated to producing to material in a production schedule that both we and cigar find workable. There have been times where weve had to negotiate out concerns of the potential risk that the provisions or certain information would create for Afghan People. We have been able to do that successfully. Sometimes a process lower than we are satisfied with than certainly i think at times cigar has satisfied with. We are doing our upmost. Im going to make the statement that you and the cigar have a different opinion of the experience you are having with each other and i think thats important to note that if the one Accountability Agency that we have that represents us the people if you will and the representatives, if theyre not satisfied that means we are not satisfied. I hope that we do a better job. Thank you dr. Rich mccormick. Picking up on the what the gentleman of georgia said hes entitled to answers if they cant be provided publicly. Mr. Schiffer will you live the committee classified briefing. Assure you we have been able to provide we have several we have been able to provide him with responses to all of the questions. Ive got a lot to we went to afghanistan to get ben laden. We got him. We would have gotten him sooner if we hadnt focused too much on iraq. We are prepared to take whatever military action is necessary in afghanistan to prevent it from being a source of a mass casualty attack on the United States, so far the various su forces in afghanistan seem to be more focused on killing each other. We went to afghanistan for a second reason, one that we votedr on and that was to remake afghanistan society. Af historians will have to tell the us whether that was ever possible to do clearly we failed to do it. We then had President Trump who promised the American People that wed get out of what we classified as a forever war. He was clever in that he gave the promise of withdrawal before the election intending to do fore withdrawal after the election because theres no such thing as an orderly withdrawal you should those circumstances. We did not have an orderly withdrawal from sygone. Our military complex told us we would have an olderly withdrawn because since the afghan army could fight successfully for 3 to 6 months that they would which is absurd that the afghan army is going to lay down his life while the leaders are trying desperately to leave afghanistan. So, of course, there was disorderly withdrawal. We have attacks from the other side we should have gone to afghanistan, enormous country and taken the weapons back from the people that wanted to continue holding them but do it all with no american casualties, so we left. We now have and one have failed to acknowledge that we have very limited power at all. We care more about the Afghan People than the taliban certainly the half of the Afghan People who are women. We can threaten to cut off aid. The taliban may not care at all. We can bomb military targets but the United States isrd not in the mood to do that. We are told that we will make them a perria in the International Community but they have no reason to care and china and russia certainly part of the International Community and theyll be very happy to do business with the taliban. We have seen our aid interrupted because or might be interrupted because we know its being stolen. I will point to tea gray where our aid was being stolen by criminals. Im much more concerned about our aid being stolen by terrorists than stolen by economicallydriven criminals. We have its commented that we should somehow prevent taliban officers from visiting russia and china gee i dont know how we are supposed to do that. Wed like to believe that the Afghan People share our values and certainly those afghans we talked to tend to share our values but the fact is that in over 20 years and with all the money that any afghan could ever pr imagine on one side and the ideology of the taliban on the other, weon lost. We are told that we have a moral obligationga to the Afghan People. I think we have a moral obligation to everyone in the entire world but the idea of taking the most generous country in the world the country who sent men and women to die by the thousands to helptries has some sort of guilt for its involvement in afghanistan from which it derives a moral obligation of the Afghan People greater of china and norway i think is simply wrong. When we went into afghanistan things were terrible and they had a civil war and the 90 of afghanistan women who were under the taliban were repressed than they are now. We didnt break afghanistan. It was broken when we got there. Now the Afghan Government is is seen hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of people deported from pakistan. It has fought border scrimmage. How does afghanistan get along with its neighbors . Thank you for that question. The relationship between pakistan and the taliban at the moment is its not good. The pakistanis are extremely worried as theyve made clear publicly about this sharp sharp increase in attacks in security forces. Theres been senior members of the taliban that have visited and seen Senior Leadership, you know, i dont have great insight into whether thats a a reflection of perhaps actions by the taliban or crack down on ppp but this security issue is, i think dominating the talibans relationship with pakistan, pakistans relationship with one of its neighbors. To the north i will give you one example among the difficult issues with the taliban is over a particular canal that the taliban are seeking to build in the north that could divert large percentages to have river that supports tens of thousands as well as turk men. Thats one issue. At the same time they are generously will providing electricity that supports the Afghan People. On iran, again you know, the iranians like any other country in the region have embassy in kabul. They have a special envoy and they probably have steep steep security concerns as well. Yes. I think they probably have concerns, look, i dont want to talk for iran but any country thats attacked i think they would have concerns about the ability of a neighbor to take action to ensure those attacks , dont happen. Ive gone over, i yield back. We now proceed to congressman mass of florida. Thank you chairman. I would in the say that isisk runs afghanistan today no. They run a portion of it. They run as a level of authority in some places . You know, we are finding with isisk they are largely choosing to keep allow profile and then and then execute a tax in cities as well as outside the country. Theyre not taliban, yes. The taliban i think you know, i dont want to step into territory around anything to do with recognition but taliban runs it enough that we dont want to give money to the Afghan Central Bank . I think the taliban are in control of the Afghan Central Bank as well as other institutions yes. Are you familiar with the name shamai robi . Yes. Hes one of the four board members, one of the cochairs . That is correct. Of the afghan fund . Who isn in charge of vetting shamei robi . So the process that we followed consistent with the Federal Reserve act we certify this person who was put forth who put them forward. Accredited representative. I would be glad to talk to you in a public setting given i think, quite legitimate security concerns. I dont want to speak further. But you dont want to say who the accredited representative you dont want to say the accreditor representative of afghanistan is . Id be happy to speak in another setting. Dont do the washington bs, say no or yes . About the vetting of individuals, the idea that you would yes we werent totally aware of the individual saying that they are a member of an honor society, things, allegations, we havent asked you about all of them and you are saying it wouldnt have changed what took place. Thats disturbing to me number 1. , and certainly, controls the central bank. Shavi rami is a member of the national bank. What does that say about the taliban . He is not controlled by the taliban. He is an american citizen. He teaches at montgomery college. Hes had a decadelong career. Hes had a decadelong career, and has been fired for misrepresenting his work from the place he had a career in. I dont know the entire history, but i would like to hear more about it from you all, perhaps, in another setting. But, he is a board member of the Afghan Central Bank on one hand. You just acknowledged that is controlled by the taliban. If you want to be a board member there, you have to be in cahoots with the taliban, and we appointed him as part of this entity in switzerland, one of four people that will control three and half Million Dollars on behalf of the United States of america, to determine if this goes back to the Afghanistan Central bank. That seems moronic to me. It seems like an absolute conflict of interest. Is he getting paid of either of those . No. He doesnt get paid as a board member of the Afghan Central Bank . No. He does not get paid as a member of the afghan fund. To go on, one more time, do you know, was he fired from Washington College . I saw the allegations that sigar brought to our attention. We were not aware of them before they were brought to our attention. Im sorry, im running out of time. I want to hear from you more. I dont want to just interrupt. For the record, mr. Chairman this letter from sigar is stating that the state responded to many concerns for ongoing audits, however, there is a difference between simply responding to the request and providing fulsome answers to our questions. That is directly from sigar about the state departments response to them, and how they are being not cooperative. Please submit that for the record. Without objection, and enthusiastically, so honored. Thank you, mr. Chair. We are so grateful our newest member, all the way from the republic of rhode island. Thank you so much, mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses. As we know, the conditions in afghanistan have been brutal since the taliban took over in august 2021, and they have only worsened. The dire situation for over 29 million afghans in need of assistance. We must be unhindered for all aid workers to serve vulnerable populations. While it is essential humanitarian aid gets to those populations, it does not address the underlying causes of afghanistans deteriorating situation. The taliban are responsible for the deterioration of the economic and humanitarian situation. It is their responsibility for the recovery of the country and the improvement of their economy, but we must support, whenever possible, in expanding network to ensure people have their basic needs met. Privatesector initiatives can grow, and women in power can be foster. I do want to shift note to a topic, i think mr. West, you briefly addressed. The United States must also be a partner in resettling. We did so much for our effort. This is something i saw firsthand with operations. We should welcome those who want to be integrated into our society as friends, neighbors and business owners, who can contribute to our economy and enrich public life. A report from my University Last year highlighted how some of the refugees, who resettled in rhode island, experienced post Traumatic Stress following the exit out of kabul. Also, how they had skills, when combined with command of english can be transferable to our local economy. In providence, i have seen this directly with the refugees training center. Its every Settlement Organization that has been really impactful just in my neighborhood. A gourmet Granola Company founded with the mission to help refugees, especially the most vulnerable. Mr. West, at a high level, can you discuss the current assistance provided to help resettle refugees via the efforts of the office of the coordinator of relocation efforts . Thank you very much for that question. As youve said, we have an office led by my colleague at the state department, exclusively focused on relocations and resettlement. They work very closely with prm, another piece of the state department. It is prm that deals with resettlement agencies, and we would be glad to arrange for professionals from prm to come and talk specifically about assistance going to refugees resettling in this country. Top line, though, the effort to help and enable the relocation and resettlement of those who served alongside us over 20 years, that is a personal priority of secretary blinken. It is one that does bleed into my work on occasions, with afghans, as well as with the taliban, and its one that will continue. One of the question. Could you briefly discuss the travel sanctions that are currently in place on taliban leadership and how the Un Security Council is reviewing waivers, specifically . Tell me a little bit about why its in our interest to work within that framework. If we rewind to say, july of 2022 there had been in place for years, what is called a travel ban waiver. That meant there were about 14 senior taliban leaders on that list, who could travel anywhere they wanted, and the countries helping them didnt have to ask anybody for permission. As a result, really, more than anything of the talibans reprehensible decision to bar women from attending secondary school, and a refusal to reverse that decision from march of 2022, the Un Security Council made a decision to take that waiver away. From august of 2022 onward, what weve seen is quite effective and dramatic curtailment of Senior Leader travel since then. Before that period from the taliban take over to august of 2022 it was a whole lot of travel by Senior Leaders. I think the travel ban has been quite effective at keeping taliban leaders in afghanistan. There have been instances, as the chairman himself noted in his opening remarks, when a country that wants to engage with a taliban leader, they need to come to the Security Council. They need to put it in writing, this is the reason this person is coming to our country. This is how long this person will stay, and then the Security Council gets time to review that request. All 15 members, not just the United States. Now, its a tough call, but the reason we havent vetoed is because we dont want to invite a veto by one of our adversaries when we need to see a member of the taliban leadership around a important issue, be it terrorism, relocation related, human rights related. A hostage issue that we need to engage upo again, i would return to saying the travel ban has been effective at dramatically reducing travel by Senior Leaders, but these requests do come when countries want to engage with the leader. Thank you. Thank you very much. We now proceed to congressman jim baird of indiana. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think our witnesses for being here today. Secretary west i want to focus on you first. In march of 2023, chairman mccaul requested several reports related to assistance in afghanistan, and this past sunday sigar released their findings on the three have billion dollars in the afghan fund, and they found these four concerns. So, the first one is over a year since creation, the fund has made no disbursements for activities intended to benefit the Afghan People. The treasury and the state are not currently willing to support the return of these funds to my question is what is state Department Strategy here, and is there a disbursement date, and when was the last time the state talked to the swiss partner about this fund . Thank you very much. The activities in the afghan fund are very important. I appreciate the question. On the board of trustees for the afghan fund, it is four individuals. The american is the Treasury Department really, its the Treasury Department that leads on the afghan fund. It is correct that there has not been a disbursement. We want to be sure that we have absolutely, rock solid accountability mechanisms in place, so that any disbursement that is made is done so, again unaccountably, with the correct auditing in place. I refer to the treasury on the exact status of the fund. Thank you. Ms. Amiri, do you have any thoughts on this issue . Thank you. Perhaps, my colleague at usaid mr. Administrator. Thank you usaid does not play a role in the afghan fund, so we refer to our colleagues at the state and treasury. I can say a bit more. This fund was set up for two purposes. First, to preserve and protect assets for the benefit of the Afghan People. Second, disbursements that would enhance economic stability in the country. An example of one such disbursement that we have long considered is, paying down on arrears that the state of afghanistan posed to International Finance institutions. The world bank and the Asian Development bank, they have funds called Bank Resources that can be drawn upon to meet the basic needs of the Afghan People to meet humanitarian needs as well. But, those funds are inaccessible if these arrears are not paid. I think its a good thing we have engaged with members of the taliban, as well as technocrats from the ministry of finance, from their so called central bank. Two payments have been made that have enabled the continuation of efforts to draw upon these Bank Resources from these institutions. It has been necessary to dip into the afghan fund for those purposes. Continuing on the funds unanimous vote requirement help could help prevent the fund from engaging in risk activity. There are currently no controls in place that specifically address the issue of taliban diversion. However, further safeguards that do address diversion may be the question is, what safeguard has the state Department Come up with or is working on to ensure there is no taliban diversion . We have 54 seconds. I will be quick. Its a very important question. I think the professionals at the Treasury Department, who are focused on this level of granularity around exactly the mechanisms in place to ensure no diversion if there is a disbursement, they are going to be in a much better place than i will to talk about that in detail. Im very confident that the Treasury Department is focused on that. Thank you. We now proceed to jason crow of colorado. Thank you, chairman. I appreciate the time. Thank you for all of your testimony today. As a combat veteran of the afghanistan war, like many of my colleagues, and like many of you here today, we have left pieces of our hearts with afghanistan, and we also know in a very deep and personal way, that we can be detect the brutality of the taliban, and push back against the taliban, and support resistance against the taliban, but we can also support the people of afghanistan. We are capable of making that distinction, and finding ways to support people that, frankly, over 20 years, learned to love freedom, to yearn for freedom and democracy, an entire generation of afghans that got a taste for that freedom and will continue to resist. I feel like we have a lifelong responsibility to support that. Consistent with that, we know from the world food program, that over 15 million of the Afghan People, many of whom we fought with and for, are food insecure in the last year. 29 million. Two thirds of the population are in need of humanitarian assistance, but there remains a lot of this information and false claims about the level of diversion, and the taliban taking that information. Could you briefly paint a high level picture. We know how to do this. This is not the First Time Ever that the United States and our allies provided assistance to people that we have committed to in support, but do so in a way that doesnt support rogue regimes or oppressive regimes that those folks live under. Can you paint that picture for a moment . Sure. Thank you very much for that question. Like you, and for the exact same reasons that you have laid out, we also believe that we have an ongoing moral commitment to the people of afghanistan, and one that is extremely important for us to uphold. Can you speak up a little bit, please . Certainly, i will try. I apologize for my creaky voice at times. On this question of diversion, as i laid out in my Opening Statement, we take these questions to be extraordinarily serious, because we believe it is absolutely critical that we make sure that our assistance benefits the people of afghanistan, and does not benefit the taliban. We do that, in part, through the way in which we design our programs. For example, our agricultural programs work directly with farmers and we make sure that the benefit flows to them, and their ability to plant crops and bring those crops to market , so that there is no benefit that goes beyond the individuals and to the taliban. Beyond that, with our implement and partners we have rigorous oversight processes and systems in place. We require all of our implement and partners to report to us if there are any allegations about the diversion of funds and we have seen them take swift action more than 25 times, thus far, to suspend assistance when there are concerns, until they and we are able to make sure that those concerns are fully addressed. Thank you, mr. Tran20 five. I appreciate you. We can talk a lot about this, but there are many checks, and we go directly to the people. We have lots of partners and lots of capability to do that because this is not the first time we have done that. Ms. Amiri, to you, there is often times this false impression that providing humanitarian aid will support oppressive regimes but what we actually know is that oppressive regimes oppress. That is what they do. When people actually have food and have security, and they have resources, they are more able to resist oppression. You have the amazing work the amazing job of helping support the afghan women and girls, who tell me how those resources helped those women and girls resist and continue to pursue freedom. Thank you very much for that question. One issue we lose sight of is, afghan women are embedded in society. They are not separate. With the humanitarian assistance we provide, it is the population that is in most need and most vulnerable. They are women and children. In fact, when you look at the numbers, 70 go to weldon and children. The conversations that i have with afghan women and girls, they are desperate they have lost everything overnight. But they struggle with is not just the fact that they have lost their voice. Many of the women that i speak to, they note that one of the things that they mow struggle with is the fact that they do not know how theyre going to feed their children. Two thank you, we now to proceed to tim burge and from tennessee. Thank you, mr. Chair. Is it possible to help without the aid benefiting the taliban . We believe it is. We believe that we have systems in place to make sure that assistance is going directly to the Afghan People. I offered that without any illusions about how difficult and operating environment it is. The special Inspector General for afghanistan reconstructions that it is impossible to provide aid without benefiting the taliban. I am a little worried that the u. S. Aid is making its way to the taliban. You are tommy that is not happening. I am telling you that we have a very rigorous processes in place to make sure that none of our assistance is diverted. When we have concerns as i was mentioning earlier we work with our implement partners to take swift action. We have been willing to suspend assistance to make sure about any of those concerns are addressed precisely because we share your concerns that the taliban does not benefit. That aid sent to afghanistan, how much do you think is paid it is just paid for taxes, fees, rents and other bells . Is not being tracked . It is being tracked. I would offer there is a distinction between a diversion and things like payment of utility bills. Tour an example, they need running water. They need electricity to be able to deliver healthy babies. We would not suggest to are implementing partners that they not pay utility bills. I appreciate that. I am surprised that sigar polled 37 ngos and they found 10. 1 million tax dollars paid to the taliban. They just pulled 37. From my perusal there is hundreds of those. That is contradicting what you are saying. I am really concerned what is going on with your organization. I would offer and we are happy to come up and talk to you about this in more detail. We have certainly talk to sigar about this. In arriving at that 10. 1 million figure, they amalgamated another different categories. I would not consider, for example, the payment of utility bills to be a support for the taliban in the ways that i know concern you and concern us. I am just a little confused. You are telling me it does not exist and the other body is saying that it does. I am glad that we passed a bill at the end of last year that was supposed to require the state department to track this number and report it to congress. I am hoping that the president sees fit to sign that into law. It does send a conflicting message out. Are you comfortable with the partnership between the taliban and china . The chinese are pursuing a very different policy from the United States than that of afghanistan. They still have an embassy operating. They are leaning pretty far forward in terms of business activities. From what we can tell the flash of the commitment you hear from beijing that there is not great data to back it up around a major, huge bra or c peck in afghanistan. Last year the chinese had 1. 5 billion oil deal with the taliban and what is the state department doing about that . We dont see afghanistan as a place where we need to compete with the chinese and the russians. As for this particular deal, i would be happy to follow up. I am not familiar with it. Quickly as an implementing partner ever made harm of the sigar info . It is simply yes or no. I am out of time. Apologies about that. I would like to come back and talk about this question in a separate setting. Precisely because we dont want to create additional risk for any of our partners or for the Afghan People. Two thank you. We will now proceed pearman chairman, i would asked to make that happen. We have a lot of questions that dont seem to be answered. At some Point Congress needs to know. If the constitution tells us we are over this and i think we should be exercising our ability , if not i think we have to cut some funds. I agree with all of the above. Congressman like lawlor of new york. Mr. West and mr. Schiffer, in reports and his testimony to the committee he documented several ways in which the tally band has been diverting and stealing humanitarian aid do you have any reason to believe that he is lying in his testimony or his reports . I will offer from any u. S. Aid perspective, we dont have any reason he is lying. I think we have questions which we are talking about about the analysis that underlies that that we have not yet seen. And making sure we are drying distinctions between diversion it is clear that there have been instances of reports of diversion and reports of the taliban trying to interfere in a delivery. When that happens do you have any reason to believe he is lying . Yes or no . I would say the same thing as administrator schiffer. We are in close touch with sigar about the methodology. Im going to ask you yes or no questions and please try to stick to that. Have you seen any evidence of the taliban demanding payoffs to permit the implementation of aid projects . Yes or no . I do apologize. I am happy to have a fuller discussion in a mr. West. Yes or no . I would be happy to have a conversation yes or no, have you seen other residents of the town been diverting aid to population such as spiders and family members . Yes or no . With all due respect we have seen you are were showing no respect to this committee. Yes or no. I am asking you very simple and basic questions. It is yes or no. We have seen attempts. Yes or no, mr. West. We have likewise seen attempts. I am aware of several incidents in which our implement and partners have fully ceased operations. In some cases entire providences. Yes or no, have you seen evidence of the taliban pressuring the u. N. And other ngos to hire taliban members relatives and allies . Again, we have seen attempts. Same. Have you seen evidence of the taliban pressuring the u. N. And other ngos to issue contracts to taliban and affiliated companies . I have not personally seen that. I have heard there has been attempt to do that as well. Same have you seen evidence of the taliban pressuring the u. N. And other ngos to partner with tally band affiliated ngos . Again, i know there has been attempts. Same here. Have you seen evidence of the taliban embedding intelligence officials in u. N. Agencies to supervise their work, facilitate interference and aversion and sensor reporting about it . On that when i have no knowledge. On that one, no. Have you seen evidence of the taliban collecting taxes and other fees from u. N. And u. S. Funded implanting partners . Depending on what constitutes other fees, yes. I agree with my colleague. Certainly through testimony that this committee has received we have establish that the taliban have benefited from the aid that we send to afghanistan mr. West, this past november it was testified that they have been trying to meet with you since you were appointed to and a half years ago. He has met with every special represent for afghanistan since 2012 but it was not until after they testified publicly of your refusal to meet that you finally agreed to a meeting last week. Why did it take you to and a half years and congressional testimony for you to finally meet with the special Inspector General . I was glad to have the opportunity the state department suspects the role that sigar plays and the oversight of afghanistan policy. We had a Productive Exchange that i hope will continue. That is not what i asked you. I asked you i took 2 1 2 years. I was glad to have the opportunity to sit down with mr. Socko. We need to do so more often. A lot faster than 2 1 2 years . You know when decisions are made about whether to meet with an oversight body, it is a conversation that i have together with the leadership of the state department. When we have those discussions, we did feel it was appropriate at the time given his testimony before this committee. Given the contradiction between some of the things that you have testified to and what he has said, would you not think it would actually behoove you to quickly get to the bottom of the discrepancies between you and he on what is actually happening with the taliban . You know, i think at the onset of the administration, our sense was that sigars role was to oversee construction activities. We are completely out of the reconstruction activities. What we are doing is meeting the basic humanitarian needs of afghanistan. We have had a time to reflect on the kind of relationship we want with sigar. The secretary had a productive meeting back in june. We are on the cusp of arriving at a socalled enhanced protocols for the treatment of Sensitive Information that sigar authorities one axis to. My engagement with him is an effort to improve our relationship. I would just know, mr. Chairman, before concluding that bureaucracy is a lot less important than figuring out whether or not the taliban is benefiting from u. S. Taxpayer money. I would hope that moving forward the nonsensical bureaucracy and discussions about what kind of relationship we have is a lot less important than dealing with the actual issue of whether or not the tally band is using u. S. Taxpayer money to fund their operations. Thank you very much. It is very appropriate. We have got. Pennsylvania. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks for being here. What is the end goal . How long will we be in afghanistan providing this . What is the plan . Can you quantify that in one sentence . Will be there forever or what are we doing . We are dealing with a really tough environment. It is to protect american interests. Our goal is to protect the American People, first and foremost. To secure the release of american hostages and multiple americans as i said at the onset. I get that. We want to get to relocation and resettlement operations. Thankfully, those are continually that does cost a lot of money. The Strategic National security interest, can you talk to me that i can you talk to us about that you make are we hoping that afghanistan is a bulwark against iran . What is the National Securities asked security interest that it can cost us billions of dollars to be there . What i feel like is that we got in a fight with a bully. We lost the fight and we got punched in the face. He took our lunch money and that we keep paying the lunch money and hope that he does not beat us up again. Tell me the National Security interest here. I him sure you have seen the same reports that i have. Brown university estimates we have spent two jillion dollars. It is gone. Back. It is radically, by many factors more modest. I get that. We are not over there occupying the country. That does not tell me what the national are we trying to, somehow, safeguard the 2 trillion assessment . Im going to revert to our National Interests. You are the guy. It says right here you are the Deputy Assistant secretary. They sent you. You should know this. Can you describe it for anybody . Our National Interest is to ensure it never again becomes a safe haven. It is. It is a terrorist superstate, brother. Are you kidding me . That is not our assessment. It is reality. Can you talk to me in the remaining time about the security chief of kandahar and that taliban intelligence whatever they call his last name matchmaker is three last names here. And if he can tell me about him traveling to korea in cooperation . No. Are you aware of it . Actually not. You know anything about it. That is a false claim. Ive not heard of it and im happy to talk to you. Please do. It has been widely report on open source. What about the interest in taking Nuclear Weapons from pakistan . The taliban. I have seen no indication. You her no reporting to the same. No. You will run that down and you will report back to us and the classified setting that we are going to have. Like i have doubts about whether it exists but im happy to i hope you do. I will give you my when you give me yours. We had a conversation a little while ago where we were talking about people from the taliban traveling. You kind of implied there was an agreement they were restricted from travel except for the portion where they were given a waiver. They wanted to go travel and work out the arrangements of the american withdraw. The waiver expired they are prohibited from travel can you tell us why the United States voted 15 times the waiver expired in 2022. In 2023, the u. S. Voted 15 times to sink sure and taliban members. Why do we do that . We see as a part of the strategy of engaging all afghans and that includes the taliban in order to protect our interest. It is in our interest to let terrorist places traveling to north korea wherever else. To occasionally meet with senior members of the taliban in order to talk about issues to do with the fulfillment of their security commitments, the release of american hostages. We are paying them billions of dollars. This poor slob, this poor guy, ryan i dont know if his family is here or whatever. What are we doing to leverage the billions of dollars to afghanistan to get this poor guy out . This lady up here as this poor woman what she is doing about depression and mental health. This is a terrorist superstate with a regime that is credible and terrace and act like animals, like she can do something about that. What are we leveraging with billions of dollars to get this guy out and the other people out and to get the circumstances of women and children in the country . What are we doing to leverage that . You talk about leverage. The kind of normalization that the taliban seek, it is about sanctions relief, 135 taliban members are still subject to 1980 sanctions. That includes an asset freeze and travel ban. They want a normal relation with International Financial institutions. They want return of 9 billion in assets that are located outside of afghanistan. They want to seek their probative representative in new york. They also want diplomatic accreditation. All of that is off the table until they stop taking american hostages, until they get girls back in school at the secondary level and the university level. They need to be allowed to dissipate in public life. Until they take additional steps that would give us greater confidence they take their security commitment seriously. I appreciate your answer. It is hard to remain calm. People in hell want ice water. The taliban will not do that stuff. They dont have to. They just need to keep coming in while they keep doing those things. I yield. Atomic very much, congressman perry. As we just saw with the excellent concerns of congressman perry, we have established in this hearing that the taliban are benefiting from u. S. Tax dollars. This needs to be put in the context of and corbett, whose husband is a hostage in afghanistan. Her tax dollars are being used to fund her husbands captors. That is inexcusable. We will proceed with a further backup hearing. At this time, i do appreciate the witnesses being here and the questions. They may have additional questions will be provided. We would like you to respond in writing and pursuant to committee rules. All members may have five days to submit statements, questions next readies materials for the record subject to the length limitations without objection. The subcommittee stands adjourned