Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline Extra 20190225 : vimarsana.c

My god, gorgeous. Did she write these letters . Was this a hint to who killed her . Youve got this message saying this was my killer just like youd see in a movie. And the ending, that was just like a movie, too. I cant believe what people do to each other. Written in blood. Hello and welcome to dateline extra. Im craig melvin. Karen panell was the youngest in her family, sharing a house with five rum bunktuous boys. She grew up to be a stunning young woman, as smart as she was beautiful. Then karen was found murdered in a florida home. A message scrolled above her head that baffled investigators. It would take a forensic specialist with a keen eye to crack the code and unravel the mystery. Heres dennis murphy. Reporter if yearround water is on your thing, once the onetime model and Flight Attendant got sand in her shoes, she never looked back. She loved the beach, diving, boating, that life. And i remember just going off the boat and going to visit islands and having picnics and coming back at sunset, and it was just so much fun. Her friend worked the counter at American Airlines in tampa with karen. If you were a frazzled passenger. Who isnt these days . Karen was the antidote. Exactly the right agent to pump into to get you on your way. Karen was very pretty. She was smart. Smiled all the time. Funny. Reporter but when the always capable and reliable karen didnt show up for her saturday morning shift on october 11th, 2003, clearly, something was wrong. Her boyfriend had tried calling her at home. When she wasnt at work or answering her calls, i began to get worried, but it was a couple hours before i really got panicky about it. Reporter the boyfriend drove over to karens condo, the front door was unlocked. A bad sign. He said he stepped inside and looked to the right to the kitchen. I saw her body and i knew immediately there was no doubt in my mind she was dead. I picked up the phone and i called 911. Shes laying on the floor, theres blood everywhere. Reporter karen pannel, sprawled on her back, a murder victim in her own home. Michael then a homicide countydive would lead the investigation. When the first deputies arrive on the scene, her boyfriend is in the front yard, he was hysterical. He actually threw up he was so upset about finding his girlfriend. They gave her boyfriend a seat in the back seat of the police car. He placed a call to her friend katherine with the unimaginable news. He says, catherine, its tim. Im at karens apartment, she has been stabbed. Stabbed . Its a horrible way, its really a horrible way to die. Karen, the baby of the family with five older brothers suddenly gone. She had been especially close to her oldest brother mike. My brother called me. I was at the airport, and said, you better sit down. He said, karens been murdered. Any theory about what had happened . I dont know. I was trying to figure out the why and relying on the police to do what they needed to do. And what they had to do was plenty. They processed the crime scene, filmed every inch of karens home, knocked on doors, tried to figure out just who their victim was. Detectives holbrooke and larry nelvin began with the man that made that 911 call. The first thing a lead investigator will do is talk to the people closest to her. In this case, we had Timothy Permenter finding his girlfriend. We took him back to the office and talked him to extensively. Tim a car salesman, gave them a run down in the hours leading up to the terrible discovery. He said he popped in briefly on karen the night before to drop off a gift. A photo calendar of kittens he knew his cat lover girlfriend would find irresistible. Tim said he left about 7 30. That was the last time to see her alive. Wouldnt it have been your routine to stay the night . Not on a friday night. Because she had to work the nextnext day. She had to go into work early. After saying goodbye, he said he spent an hour with friends an hour to the north. Is he saying anything, he cant do it . I know boyfriends are figured suspicions, i want to talk to a lawyer . No, hes being more than cooperative. While tim says he was off with his friend, there appeared to have been a frenzied struggle at karens house. Forensic specialist ana cox described the aftermath. She put up a heck of a struggle. What are you looking at . She had defensive wounds, the way her body was contorted. I was thinking, she fought for her life. Do you think oh my goodness or have you seen everything at this point . I cant believe what people do to each other. Its terrible. Reporter around the back, cox, the crime scene tech, found the security bolt on a sliding glass door had been dislodged and there were other signs of tampering. There was a cable box that was opened. You start to think to yourself, somebodys trying to cut the wires. There was a knocked over bird bath. So there was evidence outside that at first you need to think to yourself, i think that this might be a burglary. And karens overturned purse on the stovetop supported the breakin theory. Anna cox took an inventory of everything at the crime scene. A pizza box, a garden glove, a grocery receipt, all routine findings so far. But its what authorities spotted on the wall above the body that would turn this case into something out of the movies. Threeletter message in blood. You didnt have to squint to make it out, either, roc. On the victim, karens right hand index finger was clearly stained with blood. Roc. What was the murdered woman try to tell the cops . All these theories were running through my mind. What does that mean . Is that a person, a thing . The clues pointed in so many different directions, it really was it was a total mystery. Reporter theres a concept in the law known as a dying declaration. With those three letters scrawled in karens own blood lead to the apprehension of her killer . Coming up, investigators dig into that threeletter mystery. Theyve got this scrawled in blood message saying this is my killer. Absolutely. Who or what was roc . When written in blood continues. Roc when written in blood continues. State of the art technologyt makes it brilliant. The visionary lexus nx. Lease the 2019 nx 300 for 359 a month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. I was thinking. D clot could there be another around the corner . Or could it turn out differently . I wanted to help protect myself. My doctor recommended eliquis. Eliquis is proven to treat and help prevent another dvt or pe blood clot. Almost 98 percent of patients on eliquis didnt experience another. And eliquis has significantly less major bleeding than the standard treatment. Eliquis is fda approved and has both. Dont stop eliquis unless your doctor tells you to. 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When Karen Pannell didnt show up for her saturday shift, her boyfriend stopped by her house to check on her. Thats when he made a horrific story. Karen had been murdered. Investigators discovered a significant clue, roc discovered near her body. The search for answers would soon lead detectives to a man from karen emphasis past. Here again is dennis murphy. Reporter the camera always liked Karen Pannell. She was both hard to miss and hard to forget. Just ask her boyfriend tim permenter, who was smitten right away when he met her at the dealership where he worked. What did you think of her . She was gorgeous, she was beautiful. You were pinching yourself. You thought you were the luckiest guy. Oh, yeah. Karen was the best woman id ever known. I thought she was the one i could settle down with. She and her five brothers had been raised as military brats and moved bases a lot. Now that family was gathering from farflung parts of the country for her funeral. Shocked and in mourning for the lost sister who had long been their glue. All the boys kind of got involved in their own stuff. Then there was karen. She was really what connected all of us to the family unit. What does that tell us about her . She was a lot more important to us than we knew. I think she was always more interested in family as a whole than she was in herself. Brother mike wasnt alone in thinking his kid sister could have been a sky is the limit person. She could have been anything she wanted, a scientist or a doctor or whatever. She was just really nimble minded. Well, her friends loved her. And she was hard not to love. Even harder to forget what a cruel fate she had suffered at the hands of a killer unknown. During the viewing, there were visible stab wounds on her hand. You know, so we kind of pulled flowers down a little further. A few days after the murder her many friends at the airport said their goodbyes. Theres a chapel at the main terminal in the airport. There were so many people there from all different airlines, the security people. It was incredible. Meanwhile the investigation was moving quickly on several fronts. First they validated boyfriend tims story. He said after visiting karen earlier that evening he spent the night with a friend about an hour to the north. He did in fact go up to where George Solomon was staying. And this was confirmed with george as well as georges girlfriend. George gave us a time line consistent with what permenter gave us. He even came clean about something from the start. He had a record. What was going on with you . I was running an Escort Service and got stupid. Started it up small, basically, running an ad out of a newspaper, getting a small office. It expanded and ballooned. What kind of money were you pulling down a week . I was grossing about six to 7,000 a day. A day . You were how old . 20. Thats the trap. Why am i going to school when im making this kind of money . Yes. It ended up in a gunfight . Yes, sir. Tim says he was worried hed be painted as a bad guy right away because of his sordid past merchandise so he promised to cooperate every way possible. The cops took him up on it. I allowed them to photograph me. Removed my clothing. I allowed them to go to my home. Take anything they wanted. There was nothing about his clothing, his car, his person that led to us believe that he was involved in any other way than he said he was. He came over to see her, found her and was devastated. Reporter tims permenters alibi checked out. Police dismissed any clues pointing to a home invasion. After all, karen had been stabbed 16 times, an attack so ferocious, it could only be a crime of passion. Now the detectives were desperate to figure out what their biggest clue of all meant, those three letters written in blood. Roc. So this a pretty creepy scene. I mean, you got this scrawled in blood message saying this is my killer. Im now dead, you find this guy. Thats what its suggesting, isnt it . Absolutely, its what its detecting. Just like you mind you would see in a movie. Detectives found how those letters were connected to the victim lying beneath them. Roc it turned out was a man that spelled trouble for karen in the past. Roc was an exboyfriend Karen Pannell had problems with previously. And whoever and wherever this roc was, hed just become the prime target of the investigation into her murder. Okay. Well, there it is. Thats what she meant to write was roc. They have to follow that lead, and off they go. To find roc . To find roc. Coming up, mission accomplished. Find him, they do. What do you think she saw in you . The bad boy kind of thing. What would they find next . Im looking at murder, somebodys talking to me about a murder. When written in blood continues. N written in blood continues. What is that . Uh mine, why . Its just that its. Lavender. 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Covered by medicare and most major insurers. Welcome back. To detectives the murder of Karen Pannell certainly looked like a crime of passion. Her boyfriend tim admitted he had a criminal record but he had an alibi the night of her murder. Police soon learned about their troubled relationship. It was now time to talk to roc. Heres dennis murphy. Reporter a stomach churning crime scene with a cryptic message written in blood. Roc. Roc was the unusual but proper spelling of Karen Pannells exboyfriend. So tell me about the former boyfriend known as roc, letters scrawled in blood . Who was was he . Roc was an exboyfriend. He had a little legal problems, a little Substance Abuse problem. Roc had a personality as big and loud as the pipes on the harleys he loved to cruise. He worked at an auto body shop handling claims. When he met karen, she was on a downward spiral. After being married five years, she recently had got an divorce. The doctor had given her awful news. She had multiple sclerosis, 38yearsold. To be a young, divorced woman, with this awful diagnosis, what do you think that did to her . Thats a lot to put on your shoulders. Right. I think that really affected herself esteem. Frankly, i think it may have had an impact on the kind of men she was attracted to. Karen came to rely on roc to take her to doctors appointments and give her injections. But when she took the step of asking him to move in, her friends and family thought she was asking for trouble. She worries is this good for my sister. I think thats true. Is it my place to say, well, you need to go find somebody that is going to offer you a Better Future . You cant dictate terms to your kid sister . No you can only fix yourself. As it turned out, roc wasnt a fix for karen either. The relationship soon took an ugly term. They seemed to get along for a while and she was happy. And he turned into not a very nice guy. He was a little creepy. He was tough on her . There were some unexplained bruises. I used to tell her, what are you doing . He did not deserve her. She wouldnt listen. The fights got worse and police were called three separate times to intervene. One time roc allegedly broke down the front door. That was the last straw. Karen filed a domestic battery complaint and roc moved out. Tim says even a year later, he was still harassing karen about a rolltop desk he left behind. She was starting to get scared of him toward the end. The issue he had was i got a valuable piece of furniture, i want it back. Right. But karen said that that was a ruse. Trying to worm his way back in . Thats the way she put it to me. They knew they had to confront this roc, so they tracked him down and paid a surprise visit. He wasnt happy to see this. Im at my home in north port, florida, mark shows up, everybody know what is that is. Im thinking, what the heck is that . Detective holbrooke identified himself and said they need to talk to him about his friend karen. We sit down on the porch and he goes, well, shes dead. Of course this doesnt register. And i just said you need to tell me whats going on. But the detective wanted roc to do the talking. He asked about his troubled relationship with karen. Roc indicated that he was using drugs and that karen liked to drink and that they fought often. Roc said he savored the good times with karen, too. When she got dolled up, oh, my god, gorgeous. I mean, picture perfect. Wasnt anything out of place. Were there some sparks there, roc . Yeah, there was, she was all that, just by herself and ready to go. She looked hungry for attention and she was alone and it was perfect. It was a perfect setup. What do you think she saw in you . What was working from her side . Probably the bad boy kind of thing. I wasnt your conventional straight laced kind of guy. Roc was open with the detectives. Even came across as a good guy. But conceded there were screaming matches with karen and a few rip roaring fights but said she was the instigator. Shed get violent, physically violent. Just stuff. Things would happen. But nobody ever got arrested, but theyd come out. They would address the issue. As roc tells it, she gave as good as she got. He dodged a few pieces of thrown crockery. She was ready to stand up for herself at the drop of a hat. She was a tough girl. Reporter roc remembers karen playing hardball about that rolltop desk of his, too, not liking her attitude. I did call her on several occasions about my rolltop desk. The desk. That stupid desk and it was bugging me. I mean, it was a nice piece of furniture and i wanted to get it back. She pretty much said, you left, youre not getting it. He never did get. That roll top was still in karens condo on the night she was stabbed to death. Now, detective holbrooke pointedly wanted to know if roc had been there, too. He says, where were you on suchandsuch a day. Im like, well, first of all, ill have to look at the calendar because i dont know where i was that day but i guarantee you i wasnt in oldsmar. So we go from there to discussing where i was, who i had been with, where i lived. So are you getting a serious grilling . Right. He ends up telling me that we found your name in blood on the wall. Roc . So, obviously, im a suspect. I acknowledge that. I mean im looking at murder. Im getting somebodys talking to me about a murder. Roc waived his right to a lawyer and agreed to give fingerprints and swabbing. It looked as though police found yet another cooperative boyfriend of the victim. I said, if you are looking for fingerprints, theyre all over that home. I lived there a year. You are going to find them. Did you lose your patience . I did lose my patience when they cut the end of my finger off taking a fingernail. Now im done. Rocs cooperation had an edge to it. Was he really trying to cover his tracks . Detectives were determined to find out. Coming up the csi of roc. I remember thinking, wow, i wonder if thats what wrote these letters. When written in blood continues. E letters. When written in blood continues. To the cafeteria and just chow down midday . You mean, like, lunch . Come on. Voted most likely to help people save 668 when they switch. At this school . Didnt you get caught in the laminating machine . Ha. [ sighs ] box, have a great summer. Danielle. Ooh. Danielle, control yourself. Id like to slow it down here with a special discount for a special girl. Danielle, this ones for you. With a special discount for a special girl. [kno king] memories. What we deliver by delivering. With expedia, i saved when i added a hotel to our flight. So even when she grows up, shell never outgrow the memory of our adventure. Unlock savings when you add select hotels to your existing trip. Only with expedia. To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best to make you everybody else. Means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. Does this sound dismal . It isnt. Its the most wonderful life on earth. Its the most wonderful life on earth. When heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums smoothies. It neutralizes stomach acid at the source. Tum tum tum tum smoothies. Also available tums sugarfree. Im dara brown with the hours top stories. Justin farefax compares himself to a lynching victim over widespread calls for him to resign over sexual allegations. President trump says he will push back his own deadline to increase tariffs on chinese goods. The president cited substantial progress during a week of wide range talks between american and chinese officials. Now back to dateline. Well cam back to dateline extra. Im craig melvin. A message scrawled in blood had become a key piece of evidence in the Karen Pannell murder investigation. The letters roc smeared on a wall matched karens former boyfriend roc. And soon a forensic break through would force detectives to reconsider the bloody clue. Not only what it meant but who wrote it. Here again is dennis murphy. Reporter the handwriting was on the wall and forensic specialist ana cox was intent on breaking down the key piece of evidence implicating karens first boyfriend roc. You would spend hours looking at these letters. You actually cut the sheetrock out of the place and took it into your lab . Yes. I have to look at those letters, at everything about them. Using a high powered microscope ana did an analysis of the specks of blood as karen was stabbed 16 times. That flow spatter served as a gruesome canvas for the letters roc then written over it. When the letters were wren on top it, it just skimmed right over it and didnt disrupt it at all. Since the specks of blood werent smeared that must have meant roc must be have been written after they dried. But how long after . In her lab she used animal blood to test how long it took for spatter to dry on a similar surface. So once i came back and was able to apply spatter to some secks of some cardboard, then i was able to get some blood and start writing the word roc. I must have wren this word a million times over different areas of spatter. In the lab it took at least 20 minutes of drying time before the forensic specialist could write without smearing the spatter. She concluded there must have been about that much time between the attack on karen and the word roc being written on the wall. Then she looked for fingerprints themselves. Sounds impossible, right . If shes writing and applying pressure to the wall, you would think there would be some type of ridge detail. Ridge detail. We all have it. Unique telltale patterns on every finger and hand. Rather she detected an unusual hint of a pattern, something almost like polka dots. And i thought back to myself the gashden glove on the counter that was missing its match, missing its pair. A garden glove was found in Karens Kitchen, just one glove. The make was never located. It had a distinctive dot pattern. On the interior side its like rubber and got those things that stickup for gripping purposes so it doesnt slip. And i remember thinking, wow, i wonder if thats what wrote these letters. Cox bought similar gloves. Ana cox had come up with two important findings. The message in blood had likely been written with a gloved hand and had been scrawled at least 20 minutes after the on set attack on karen. She reported to her results to detectives who by then had learned another pertinent fact about their victim. Karen was exclusively lefthanded and karens left hand did not have blood smeared on it. Not only that, when the autopsy report came in it suggested karen could not have written anything on either hand. Was this a victim going to be able to dip in her own blood and write roc on the wall in. No, absolutely not. Over 90 of her spinal cord had been damaged by knife wounds. She was incapacitated. She didnt write that. The evidence was overwhelming. Karen did not write the letters roc in blood. It was a turning point in the case and the best news ever for the exgirlfriend. They confirmed 100 she could not have done that. She would have been physically incapable of doing that. And it surely wasnt me. I mean, why would you write your own name on the wall. Police agreed implicating yourself in a murder just made no sense. Roc got more good news after police checked outlet his alibi he was home on the night of the record. Got his cellphone records and the cell towers are hitting off at the same time we know karen was killed. Hes in north port, florida, and thats a good hour, hour and a half a away. And you went over all these alleged beeves he had with her. Absolutely. And hed moved on. The detectives were ready to move on, too. They had officially cleared roc. It was a major development. Karens ex had gone from being a prime suspect to a victim himself, a victim of the real killer who tried to frame him for the crime and was still out there somewhere. Whoever killed her somebody named roc. Somebody knows my name. Its part of the story here. Thats right. But if you think about this its not even a mart thing to do. Roc was right. The pool of suspects had suddenly narrowed who also knew the unusual way he spelled his name, roc. The detectives were about to take a hard look at all of it. Coming up you could walk right by and think it has no importance at all. Could a box of pizza help solve this puzzle, when written in blood continues. E this puzzl in blood continues and everywhere i go theres always something to remind me of another place and time frstill, we never stoppedss wmaking it stronger. E. Of another place and time faster. Smarter. 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After painstaking work she determined the letters left at the crime scene had been written not by karen but by someone wearing a garden glove. Detectives were now convinced the killer was trying to frame karens exboyfriend roc. And that theory would push a familiar name to the top of their suspect list. Here again is dennis murphy. Police had reached a startling conclusion. Karen pannell did not write those three letters on the wall. Detectives started questioning the other men in karens life. Karen had nicknames for her boyfriends. Car guy, that was tim permenter. Another one she referred to as dr. Pilot. Dr. Pit had recently been sending karen a romantic texts, but he was onboard a flight over the middle east when she was killed, so he was ruled out. As were most of karens friends. Every boyfriend except tim permenter, the one who reported finding karens body. Is she conscious . No. Is she breathing . I dont know. He later would tell detectives hed lost the love of his life, the woman he was hoping to marry. But people who knew karen best started telling police a different story. Im not sure why she began a relationship like that. The relationship began with tim trying to sell karen a new car. But police learned he also sold her a bill of goods about himself. Saying hed been a navy s. E. A. L. Involved in top secret missions, never mentioning the sordid truth about his primitive past. Karen told me he explained his scars as he got injured on a mission. Super commando stuff. So why are you lying to her . You giving her a crock . Theres really no excuse for it other than if youre an inmate or youre a convicted felon no matter how good you do, no matter what you do, theres always going to be that specter hanging over you. It was several months into the relationship before tim finally revealed his ugly secret. He was a felon whod spent more than a decade behind bars. The selfdescribed escort came. I said ive been waiting for the right time it tell you this, and she was flabbergasted. I think she became frightened of me. So why didnt you just shake hands and call it quits . Because i loved her. Karens friends and brothers said she told them she was afraid, and when she tried to pull away from tim brother mike said those fears were quickly borne out. Did you ever hear evidence she was not being treated well . Yes. And she called me and said that tim had choked her and i felt like after that conversation that i had convinced her to file a police report. But no report was filed. Still, karens coworkers could tell something was terribly wrong. She had bruising on her neck. A friend found she missed a day or two, she wore a turtle neck. In the summer months in florida, you dont wear a turtle neck. While detectives chased down every lead, the crime lab made another big discovery. Unlike the mellow dramatic and bogus message in blood, this message was something forensic tech anna cox almost passed right over, a pizza box on Karens Kitchen counter. It ended up being crucial in this case. Cox was able to lift a clean fingerprint from the box. It was tim fermenters. He initially stated that he wasnt there when the pizza was delivered. He told the officers in the initial interview i was out of there at 7 30 . Well, his fingerprints were on that box. And you had a receipt saying it was delivered at 8 48 . Yes. So he has now put himself right there at the scene and right there in the last crucial hours of her life. Its a poor set of facts. For him. And then tims time line and alibi took another hit. He first said he was home when he called his friend george after 9 30. Detective nelvin found evidence proving otherwise. Once we get the phone records back and the cell tower site locations back, we are putting him right at her house. So the tower is catching him in a lie . Absolutely. His 911 phone call in the morning, it hits off the same tower he was hitting off when he called 9 46 the night before directly north of Karen Pannells house. They could only think of one reason for him to lie about those times. It was that karens car guy was the killer. They brought him to headquarters again, this time for an official and much more aggressive interrogation. He gave the same time line as he gave previously. We went through with him and he held true to what he told us. And at that point we started attacking this story. Tim had a simple explanation for the time line problems. He was confused. This is what cooperation got me. Confused. Confused . We know you werent confused, tim, you lied. When the pizza arrived, i was still there. 8 48 delivered. And it was right after the pizza arrived. I would say i was there another ten, 15 minutes. Why do you tell cops 7 30 . Im horrible at times and days and the problem was is that making a mistake became a im hiding something. Cops call your mistake a lie . Of course. Why do you lie at times . You were there at least 8 30 to 9 30. I dont see how. Thats impossible. No, the pizza man keeps a receipt. You can track, okay. Tim had been slipped up by his own statement. The detective said the suspect knew the charade was over. He put his face in his hand, he literally covered his face for two or three minutes. Tim ultimately looked up at us and the car salesman guy that we knew as tim permenter completely left the room. What did you see in his eyes, in his face . The first thing i thought was satan just walked in the room. Coming up. I knew i was innocent. Was he . The trial and the verdict. When written in blood continues. When written in blood continues. Hoo want to take your next vacation to new heights . 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A fingerprint on a pizza box had shattered tim perminters alibi, placing him at the scene in the last hour of karens life. He would soon be arrested and charged with her murder. But with no dna or blood evidence tying him to the crime itself, would the case against him hold up . Now with the conclusion of our story, heres dennis murphy. The detectives are now convinced that the boyfriend that helped solve the murder was now the killer. Plus but police had nothing on him and were only targeting him because of his criminal record. I didnt do it. Delved arrested him and sent him to the county jail. Bill lowry was the state prosecutor who got the case. What about your accused, timothy per minter . I think timothy perminter is a psychopath, someone who had gotten lucky to be with karen. And once she got past the superficial aspect of him in real life what he really was like, she wanted out of that relationship and that ultimately led to her death. Prosecutor lowry says perminter thought he could outsmart the cop, by acting the bereaved boyfriend, playing to it the hilt. But the Prosecutor Says he got thrown off his tearstained script when he called his best friend soon after making that 911 call. He says catherine, im tim. Im at karens apartment. She is laying on the floor. There is blood everywhere and she has been stabbed. Stabbed . Stabbed. Not dead, she has been stabbed. And he tells her on the phone according to katherine that shes been stabbed. Okay. Well, she has been stabbed. We didnt know that at that point in time. So he knew something he shouldnt have known, something crucial. He knew something he shouldnt have known because hes the one who stabbed her. Prosecutor lowry sized up his case. A rejected lover with a violent history. A man the evidence showed was at the scene of the crime and had lied about it. He charged perminter with firstdegree murder and decided to seek the Death Penalty. Then just weeks before the trial was scheduled to start, tims friend George Solomon, his sleepover alibi witness recanted his story. He tells me this whole new story that perminter had admitted that he killed karen that night. Blurted out a confession . When he got up there. So thats a holy cow moment for you. It is. This one had taken four long years, and despite building a strong circumstantial case, prosecutors did not have a murder weapon or other physical evidence linking tim perminter to the weapon. Tims defense attorney. You a complete lack of physical evidence. No bloody fingerprints, no bloody footprints out the door. Frankly, i think circumstantial is sometimes the best, because they dont lie. The circumstances dont lie. People lie. And thats the case lowry made to the jury. The circumstances show tim perminter was the only one with the motive and the opportunity to kill karen. And everything he did afterwards was fabricated to cover up his horrendous crime. The issues in this case were the murder of karen which the only person who could have done it, and that person lied about all these things. There is no reason for a person to lie about the death of their loved one if thats really true. Defense attorney klapp countered with common sense, arguing that commons killer must have been drenched in blood after a frenzied attack and there was no forensic evidence to show his client was that person. In order to buy the states case you have to make assumption upon assumption upon assumption. Thats not what our testimony is about. How did i do it . How on earth did not one single drop of blood get on my clothing or anything like that. Or in your car, which was ripped apart. Right. Thats why i agreed to let them look. Get what you want, because i knew i was innocent. The defense also tore in to the credibility of George Solomon, saying it was ridiculous to think tim would get an invitation to spend the night with him after blurting out a murder confession. Hey, i killed somebody, just now or whatever. Oh, really . Come on. Lets go see my wife and kids. No way. A confident timper minter decided to speak directly to the jury. He took the stand in his own defense. The attitude was look, youve got get up and talk to these people. How do you remember him on the stand . I think he was calm. I think he answered the questions as best he could. Very simply, i think very completely. We felt that we had made a showing that the state had met the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Mike pannell had waited four long years to get justice for his sister, but now he wasnt sure what the jury would do. There. Were times that i felt the evidence was very circumstantial. In this day and age, we know that juries really like to see forensics. Right. The dna, the blood samples, and they didnt visit. That was the biggest concern for me. But it took the jury just four hours to find tim perminter guilty of firstdegree murder. He was spared the Death Penalty by the judge, who ordered him to serve a life sentence with no chance for parole. How are you doing today . Im fine. I spoke to perminter at liberty correctional stews. The convicted murder says he is the victim of a Justice System that he says was against him from the start. Did you murder karen . No. This would be a great time to relieve her family of a lot of remorse and fess to it. And i understand that. But i did not kill karen. I did not. Ill probably spend the rest of my life here. And when im 80, if im still alive, i did not kill karen. Ill pay for it, and i am paying for it, but i didnt do it. The detectives who cracked the case say they might have believe him if only he hadnt tried so hard to fake his alibi. Starting with those three letters written in blood. So this hollywood touch i think of it, roc did it, the dying declaration, it bit him. It bit him hard. Very hard. He outsmarted himself. And thats why he is in prison. After the trial, roc herpich was free to ride his harley, but told us it still ate him up that a man he never met tried to frame him for murder. If you could sit down and talk to him the way were talking here, what would you say to him . I am restrained correct . I couldnt get to him, right . Should we tie him to the chair in this scenario . I would not be a good communicator in that conversation mode with him sitting there. I couldnt do it. Mike pannell couldnt do it either. Hed rather not think about tim perminter and the last moments of his precious baby sisters life. Im not interested in remembering karen associated with that crime. Its been a long ordeal for you . Uhhuh. I want to remember karen as the brilliant, beautiful young woman she was. Maybe this smiling person, someone who loved her friends, loved the beach, and died too young. Thats all for this edition of dateline extra. Im craig melvin. Thanks for watching. Due to mature subject matter viewer discretion is advised. Msnbc takes you behind the walls of americas most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. Now the scenes youve never seen, lockup raw. On the ground. Were going to run military style. Strict. Before any inmate sees the inside of a prison, hes most likely seen the inside of a jail. Im just sitting in a room. I dont know if its night or daylight. And nothing about jail is for the faint of heart