A show about whistle blowers and whats the blowing. And i say with some frequency, i hope youre not too tired of hearing it. That whistle blowing is the act of bringing to light any evidence of waste, fraud abuse illegality, or for us to the Public Health or public safety. That sounds simple, but its actually not, for example, should motivation be considered . What is the revelation is made as part of a plan to ruin someone . Politically . Should investigative journalists be considered . Whistle blowers . There really arent any easy answers to these questions, but were going to try to get to the bottom of things. Im john kerry. Ok, welcome to the whistle blowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 or its only because of whistle blowers that we know about werent less wire tapping of american citizens about the sea ice torture program about its archipelago of secret prisons. Its only because of whistle blowers that we know about swiss banks, violating International Banking laws or Tobacco Companies working secretly to get children addicted to cigarettes or about the dangers of lead pipes used in municipal water systems. Its not unusual for governments or even from the main stream media to try to ruin the whistle blower rather than to attack the problem that the whistleblower has revealed. Think as examples about the response to the initial revelations about the 100, by the laptop, or about evidence that the American Internal Revenue Service was targeting for tax investigations, conservative groups, and individuals who had criticize the government. We are very happy to be joined by lionel. Lionel is a media analyst, a substantive expert, and a controversial list. Welcome to the show, were very glad to have you. A. Thank you, im honored. Oh, believe me, ive been looking forward to this for a long time. The honor is online and line almost be a slow week there. There are 2 major issues that i wanted to speak with you about. We can have some fun with them, of course, but at the end of the day are these, these are actually pretty serious issues. They are the 100 by the laptop and the iris. And im going to start with the 100 by the laptop. I received a printed copy of the laptop from Garrett Ziegler who now runs a non profit organization, but who used to work in the trump white house. He printed and published literally every page from the laptop. This is more than 700 pages in all, and honestly, most of it is just bad porn hundreds and hundreds of pictures of 100 by naked, and usually naked with prostitutes. There are hundreds of pictures of him doing drugs, and there are hundreds of emails and Text Messages mostly with prostitutes. So 1st is the easy question. Is the publication of the contents of a laptop whistle blowing . Why or why not . This is, by the way, this is a great subject and i love this because im a lawyer by profession and i tend to nit picking pars and bring everything down. Its ridiculous that i, i guess you would call in and add them ization. First, the story is that he left his laptop initially be a band and yes, Everybody Knows that if you, if you leave your dry cleaning, some place where you leave your car is something thats called almost like a. Its called a bellman in in law. And after a period of time, you surrender any kind of title to it by virtue the fact that you a band and. Okay john, heres the question. What did he a band to be a band in the laptop . He a band of the information. Uh huh. Say for example, you leave your wallet and i say i found a wallet, it was a money in it, and i do everything in my power. I let everybody know you had 30 days to claim it. Okay, great. Ive got it now. And i go online and i say to john kerry up, this is where he lives. This is his drivers license number. This is this. Hi. And heres this. And its now to wait a minute. Can i claim that information . Did i say . Well, he left as well. Yes, but whats in that i got is, is the information, is it a lot of running the way in delaware . There is a can comedy case going on right now. The thing was a counter claim that he is showing for, for violation or, or reaching his privacy. And i really think hes spot on. So while i, i know its not a favorite pastime in this country to be of a defending a 100 button. I think hes got a point here because im not in the so totally sure what it was that should be disseminated now. Could i also go back to something that you said . What is a whistle blower . And you said that term, if you from isnt it sounds tried, it sounds slowly. It sounds like your what about here . Oh, you know, im sure youve heard of queen tom legislative. Oh yeah we time is, um, i guess its actually a longer term, but it means basically um in the name of the king and what it means is simply this. If youre at a, lets say, department of defense, and through the course of your work, you find out that the government has been waiting millions or billions of dollars. Not only to encourage careful inspection on the part of conscientious citizens, but to a to, to compensate you, youll get a portion of the money that youve saved, that youve exposed. And its, there are law firms all over the country devoted to queen tops. Oh yes, it is essential, the National Good whistle blower everybody out of the pool and its like, wait a minute, thats not what youre doing. Thinking about this. Every time anybodys ever done anything, whether its ellsberg a song, snowden, the name of anybody whos an f. B, i agent whos, who cracked the dillinger case . Youre kind of a whistle blower again. But, but the, but the issue is that it seems sometimes to some people, its nibbling. I think its a hero status. But the question is, and this is what most people are asking is when does it become a problem . I dont mean to over to keep talking, but lets take julian to such join aside, what do you like him or not . Is a journalist. Thats right. And theres a United StatesSupreme Court case board, nicky that says yes, specifically, if you come into contact and you come into the possession of information that was stolen and that was per learning, that was a go get a garnered by a trespasser. Oil stepped and you are given it. You can publish it. Ellsberg. Oh, bruce told us about the rand corporation. Did anybody go out to the New York Times . Washington post. No. But a surge of different snowden snow. Just different snowden work for a company. Snowden basically said, i will not turn things over. I will, i will, not will so blown. Can you do this . Can you work for a company that says this, whatever you do, or anybody know what we do, no matter how horrible it is. I dont know the gray areas john are replete. The whole thing is great. I like gray. I always say make america great. Again. Theres no black and white. Theres no apple dictate its, its all, im not sure. And thats what we should be discussing. Well is, is motivation important here . When i, when i was polluted with along the sea ice torture report, the 1st attorney i spoke to told me that motivation has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a person has a whistle blower. Do you agree with that . Absolutely, it does not matter because what does that even mean . What does that mean . What if i what if what i expose the most Important News ever and i do it because im a crackpot. I hate the government because im a communist because im a capitalist because im a but coach harris. If i could give you 11 case by analogy, one of the problems that one of the things i have with hate crimes. Why i hate hate, grimes, is that motivated . Sion of a crime is irrelevant. For example, if i go up like if i slap your hit your punch, you error like why is i intended to do this . So then if you take my my motivation, then you had a great the crime because i dare to the other because by the way he is projected youre basically penalizing me for it for my thoughts. So motivation is, are relevant. Im sorry to say that it might be interesting later on, its sitting saying it might, it might affect, for example, a damages awarded. Maybe maybe youre not as, as a, as a role which, but information is information. What about this scenario . Lets say a guy finds a laptop in his repair shop and it has a lot of dirt on it and he gives it to rudy giuliani, who then gives it to the right wing press. And then they turn it over to members of congress for investigation. And congress has hearings and people pound their chest, so they make strong speeches. But then at the end of the day, no crimes are charged based on the information that was on the laptop. Certainly, there are other charges in the case of 100 biden, but theres nothing from this laptop. What should we make of that . Were there any whistle blowers in this whole scenario . Great question. Heres the here. Heres the issue that nobody ever talks about. What do you do when nobody brings charges . What do you do with marriage . Garland, golden, dont you think about that . And what do you dont wanna say . Im not talking about some guy with a hooker in a, you know, at a crack pipe or something. Im not sure if thats a crime or but, but, but in cases i think were the case could be made that perhaps maybe there were violations of farrah or maybe whatever. What do you do, john . When the government says were not interested, right . Hold lock. They always talk about the constitution always talks about the 1st of all, you know, a due process, you know, a search and seizure. Well thats when you get you, there is no such thing as to be protected from the government who doesnt investigate. I mean, if you pick up the phone and say, hello officer dc, please, hello, is it the regular hello . Hello. And they keep hanging up on you dont, we dont know what thats called. But you would, you brought something up though. This is the bottom line is, this is, this is, this is not a legal answer. This is a reality of what if i called up and said i went before court and i said i have right now a laptop. If somebody you would know whos involved and heres where a garter belt and a whip and a gutter, 9, rails, and youre doing drugs. And even though i already did defrauded, you know, right, things you can even imagine, right . Yes. Do you want to know who it is . Yes, i, you have to promise me 1st. What will you do about this . Ill tell you who it is, because theyre telling you, if its joe biden or be somebody that wed like, we dont want to hear about this. But it was somebody that we dont know if its trump, were in on this. Give an example, just a test drives me not. There are people right now and i dont want to go to the right or wrong of this, but certain things that are being said on College Campuses that might involve anti semitism. Okay, but im telling you, you hear College President say this is the 1st, this is the way i speak of the conference to either congress at the marketplace or free ideas or is it, oh, im sorry. Did i actually, i didnt, i didnt know. I meant racism. See they said this, oh, thats different. And thats the part that i hate. Its that, that different, right . Because we believe in the forward you the amendment under this notion of equal protection where we treat people fairly. This is, this is our thing, john. Are we say we, we dont, we, we have this kind of like the sterile way of looking at a crime is a crime. Is the crime victim is a victim, doesnt matter who is the president who is not, you know, whistle blowing. And in particular, the notion of this, but again, its that name, i dont know why they call it that it sounds, went it sound all that blowing and it was the does, it does final forgive me. Were going to take a short break. And were going to come back in just a minute. When we come back, were going to take a shot at the i r s. Actually let me correct myself. We will examine with an even hands the i r. S. And whistle blowing at the iris says they to. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the. 2 the, the its amazing what can happen over the course of a few months, not long ago buying was in fabric that the us would back to craig as long as it takes. Now, it is as long as we can, what happened . No doubt the regime and to have this taken down the welcome back to the whistle blowers. Im john kerry onto were speaking with media critic analyst and all around well informed guy lionel about with the blowing related to the 100 by the laptop. Any Internal Revenue service line . Oh, thanks again for being with us. Great to have you. Thank you. Thank you sir. Little i blow the whistle on the sea ice torture program back in december of 2007. And then, much to my surprise or not, the iris began auditing me. I had to hire an accountant and i had to hire a tax attorney and is if that wasnt difficult enough for me to defend myself, i was audited again in 2008, 91011121314, and 15. It was an absolutely horrible and expensive experience, but this is all just a co incidence of course, right . No person in a position of power would actually use a governmental entity like the iris against the citizen because of whistle blowing or the revelation of protected speech, right . We dont do that. Well, you know, its funny. I if its amazing how the to just happened to coincide, its interesting that at the time that you made use of a wait a minute called it just he watch just a 2nd. We have to make sure that our key witness surely up to snuff. Thats right. That were going to do this, this internal, this colonoscopy, which basically is what this is what the, let me give you an analogy in the world of sexual harassment. And before the time of the h r department. But we used to have employee member personnel number is 8. Sure. Theres this rules. Everybody says wait a minute. Now listen, she filed a complaint. Made sure you show nothing that looks or appears to be what tally a tory day notice. Dont fire them. Dont give them more work, less work, dont we dont want to be what tally and lori make sense. Doesnt in except for you. Right . It applies to one off is divided, but applies to an odd to, to an insurance. Right. A beta agency in muncie, indiana doesnt apply to you. Now, go ahead and try to explain that one. Go ahead and try to say, hey, listen folks, this is whats gonna happen to you if you do this, by the way, you know, when you have these whistle blowing, statutes and we, tom legislation, they dont tell you, are you sure you want to know this . Hm. You know, i read about that. Yes. And then it also depends on whos acts is being gored into life. And then do you get into this . Now let me be double advocate. And what happens if you do something, john . Not in your case, but somebody says, i am aware of something that the government is doing, but they say wait a minute if you would have revealed is by now this could compromise an ongoing division. Does it everything that the potential Ongoing Investigation isnt that the everything made the country look bad. That doesnt that the work, you know, could be seats. I going to tell you this and, and im sure, you know theres my, i find people to know that when you say the government to try been a washington book, how did you guys, what was the model number . Oh, my god, the government. Mr. Smith, behind the government is some bureaucrat thats right behind that building and that building or agencies youve never heard of and they dont care about you and your vision of the, of the government or whatever it is. But the people dont understand what this is. Were talking about people who are doing things that unless you find yourself in that position, and by the way, if you are not a lied, i is a lawyer. Have been involved in people who have been theoretically involved in organizations of dare i say, a sicilian american background, right, where they have reputed to be no, you can do anything to them and then make the front page vinny, you know, get a really banana is whatever they love it. However, the government looks the other way when youre going to other mobs by chinese triad, other particular situations or a motorcycle up. Do you know it isnt a somebody m as 13 is still going around here. The my, if you still have the government never shut them down once. And one of the we, we go into that. But the thing is, is that the government thinks that are the people think that the government failed, or that its even that has pottery paso, that is equally a portion we go after crimes, irrespective of who you are and listen, there is the i r rush, but if somebody told me, listen, dont, dont, uh, usually iris at, okay. Ill go after regulatory agencies, i will do and i can shut you down and ruin your life using co host of things that are dire risk. But if youre in a business, youre being regulated, you have some Agency Looking out for you and i can make your life a living. Hell, how do you prove retaliatory actress on the part of the government . And when and but, but theyre just doing their job site, right. Thats what they want us to believe. And actually that leads to my next question. I wanted to get your thoughts on what were learning from. A handful of iris whistle blowers, not only is the iris used as a weapon against people, its used specifically at least recently against conservative store conservative activists. 3 different whistle blowers now have come out and have said that they were working on the 100 biden case, using information from the 100 by the laptop. And they were pushed off the investigation and dismissed by the mainstream media. Why do you think they werent taken seriously . Because the main stream media, our parasites locked in to, to this group of folks there, there proxies for what you would call the shadow government. But i mean, i can go on and on the other very quickly, john, several years ago when they had the, the storage abuse cases. Barbara, these, these guys who came in and said, all right, what would happen to them . Right. What about the back of the exec who came in and they ask them under, oh, do you think uh, nicotine is a ticket. Now what do i happen today . Im one of our majority of these people. They just go away. We just forget about them because we have our, me yeah, yes, thats the biggest problem. Yes, exactly, right. Here in the United States, wed like to think that we have the best of everything. We have the best whistleblower protection laws, right. But thats just simply not true. So what do we, what do you think we need to do to better protect whistle blowers . Wire whistleblower. Were still fighting this fight even after so many years. And i might add after passage of something i run a cli called the whistle blower protection act a. Yeah, i right. Well 1st when we got to get rid of this stupid name, we gotta get rid of this dumb name. And though they whistle blower, i dont even know what that means, but we have to re educate people and understand something. Let me just Say Something