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You said. and the lehman president, joe gregory, was a master at disguising just how machiavellian what he was and going on at lehman. so i think in fairness to dick fuld he wasn't the only person blinded as to also -- all sorts of human resource maneuverings and things happening, the leverage being taken. joe gregory fooled him and fooled a whole lot of are people too. >> did you get the sense, or maybe you know this in the book, that hiding risk -- >> yeah. >> with the repos on the 105s was a business model. basically take on as much risk as you can, take your garbage, hide it when it is nec...

Shortfalls caused by the recession, of course, which was triggered by the fraud and the financial industry. in fact, right here in new york, for example, $500 million in tax refund money may be delayed until the state begins to rebound from a $9 billion deficit, which means it doesn't even have a timeline. is that legal? >> well, it's legal because the state will do it, pass -- you know, i feel a little betwixt and between on this one. you know you expect this refund, we know you're paying your bills, but we're not sending it to you. >> j.p., if taxpayers weren't worked up already, this will s...