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Meeting that occurred between gates, manafort's number two, and manafort, in an exclusive bar, it's membership only in the 666 building that was owned by the kushners, which has become the focal point and that's the question of whether polling data was actually shared, so, you know, the judge is calling a lie a lie, which is essentially something really bad happened in that meeting, and manafort continues to lie about it even though he was given this sweetheart deal. >> and i do want to remind everybody, you know, that the platform at the republican national convention, the republican platform...

In the conduct they alleged he engaged in turning over polling data, my sense it has little to do with politics and a lot to do with him saving his own skin. >> that is a possibility. this incredibly cinematic meeting with kilimnik in this semiseedy cigar bar which is on the top of 666 fifth avenue, rudy giuliani is a regular there, it's like this crazy new york place. this is the place they decide to meet. and the question is, is manafort meeting with kilimnik to regenerate his own personal business in the ukraine where he made so much money where the $15,000 ostrich jacket came from, or is h...

That's the intriguing part. the question is, is it the sanctions discussion that went on? what could be worth it to take this kind of risk? >> jim, to that point, it's the same question i asked senator blumenthal. why would he lie, and why would all thee people lie after having these kind of meetings? >> in manafort's case, we don't know the answer to that. in manafort's case it's been alleged he had ties to russians, that he's worked with russian operatives in the past and that he may have owed some of those folks money and that he may have been trying to save his own skin at the end of the d...

That's the quick synopsis tonight of what is a difficult ruling. >> we're looking at a meeting, a certain meeting at this cigar room at 666 avenue owned by jared kushner. it seems the most interesting meeting, and now we have the judge ruling that manafort lied about that meeting. he lied about his relationship with this russian who is close to russian intelligence, the old kgb. he lied about. that he left by a separate exit. the three had the suggestion they were doing something they weren't proud to have the world know about it and now he lied about it. it might have been what the post is ca...

Decision is the last graph where she said -- the judge said that these were the cases but she was still to decide how it would play into his time served. as jeffrey said, this is just one case. this is going to go on and on. back to our question of a pardon. he has held firm. the president has maybe hinted, put out there that pardons for people who hold firm are more likely. i think they have to be hoping that that might happen. >> just to put this -- >> that's an understatement. >> with paul manafort, the meeting he had early august 2016 at 666 5th avenue at the havana club -- >> that only je...