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A liar tells the lie that michael cohen was just a small player in his operation that had very little to do with donald trump. >> yes, barely knew him. it's hard to imagine he's had an opinion of michael cohen. he's heard of him none whatsoever. the only thing he said was he did very little legal work for donald trump because he's not really a lawyer. he also didn't do much pr work, although he did represent trump in the press to some extent. what he did for trump in the decade or so he worked for trump, not a little bit but a lot for many hours every day, and if you ever dealt with trump you ...

Policy matter. do you think? >> i think -- i mean, past is precedent certainly here, and i think that's a very strong argument. it seems that this has particularly hit a chord, and i think emotions are strong. whether that lasts in the next couple of weeks, and pending the results of the investigation if it sorts out to be credible. >> clearly, susan, the president wants to take the saudi denials at face value, whether from the king or the crown prince. >> right. so he is doing the saudi pr work for them, saying maybe it is this rogue element, whether that is something we should be accepting a...

I mean you've done -- you've done pr work forever. you got rudy giuliani running around hurting the president's cause. making matters worse. making robert mueller's ratings go sky-high. a lot of chaos inside the white house right now. let's pretend for a second, let's suspend animation, and say that donald trump is going to listen to bill shine or sarah huckabee sanders or any of the communication people's advice. what advice do you give him on september 7th, 2018, with an election a couple of months away and all the trend lines going in the wrong direction? >> i say, you know how you suspend ...

Rudy guiliani moving the goalpost in this investigation and went from there wasn't a meeting to collusion -- he knew nothing about a meeting. what's the strategy here? >> i know rudy guiliani and he's a fine man. a good lawyer. i knew him when he was doing mob cases in new york when i was an fbi agent in chicago. i think he's having a bad week here. it appears to me there is no coordination between what the white house communication shop is doing or at least his lawyer shop is doing, i should say, the president and what this guiliani shop is doing, they have this go out and fix this thing. gui...

White house communication shop is doing or at least his lawyer shop is doing, i should say, the president and what this guiliani shop is doing, they have this go out and fix this thing. guiliani isn't really doing the legal work it appears to me, doing the pr work. i thought in the last couple of days he wasn't at his best. >> he said, just since he's been representing the president, he said some things not necessarily consistent as well. the last couple of days, you're right, not at his best. there's a japanese proverb that says only lawyers and painters can make white into black. think about...