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Indicate the relative strength of the movement. it's been a rough year for the far right, particularly for the leadership. so they're finding their footing these days. i think they'll try to spin this as a failure by jason kesler or as -- you know, any number of reasons. >> does the group want a leader? we talk about jason kesler who filed the paperwork for the rally. when you look at folks who's white house the beliefs do they want a unified group? do they want somebody calling the shots and heading the movement? >> oh, man, well they have wanted that forever. everyone wants to be the next fu...

Ally she had in the trump administration. unfortunately, for people who didn't like her presence there, that's one of the few allies who really, really counts. one ally was president donald j. trump. she was widely despised within the trump administration, and that's an administration that is where the practice of back-stabbing and backbiting, and internal power struggles is certainly very, very common place. and she excelled at that practice to the point where she ended up on an island to herself. and because she operated under the protections of the president while not actually doing all tha...

They just can't believe it. so they leak it. and i think that's a lot of what you get in the press today. >> and, matthew, this of course adds to a paranoia which has been kind of an operating thesis in that west wing you cover. >> that's exactly right. we know the president sort of feels this paranoia about the deep state or other leakers. but to touch on what jeremy said earlier, it is sort of a paranoia of back-stabbing in the west wing that leads to so many of these leaks happening. donald trump does not engender a lot of loyalty in his staff, either to him or to each other. so i think wha...

>> that's exactly right. we know the president sort of feels this paranoia about the deep state or other leakers. but to touch on what jeremy said earlier, it is sort of a paranoia of back-stabbing in the west wing that leads to so many of these leaks happening. donald trump does not engender a lot of loyalty in his staff, either to him or to each other. so i think what leads to so many of these leaks is if you're worried that the only way to protect your own job is to leak negative things about your colleagues or you think they're leaking about you, so you have to fight back by leaking about ...

They're seeing and what they're hearing when they go into a meeting in the oval office, and they just can't believe it. so they leak it. and i think that's a lot of what you get in the press today. >> and, matthew, this of course adds to a paranoia which has been kind of an operating thesis in that west wing you cover. >> that's exactly right. we know the president sort of feels this paranoia about the deep state or other leakers. but to touch on what jeremy said earlier, it is sort of a paranoia of back-stabbing in the west wing that leads to so many of these leaks happening. donald trump doe...