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Know this is not the way -- that this would be an indictment if it were anyone else but donald trump. and that's why i think jack smith, who's such a by the boong book prosecutor, is going to see it that way. i think the mishandling of the information in the first place, maybe trump's going to have a defense like i wasn't involved, i was out of the loop, someone else packed the stuff up and so on. but it's not the finding of the documents itself that to me is the most significant thing. it's that trump's lying about it and obstruction of the investigation both before, during, and after it. tha...

Trap is forbidden. and that is when you have no legitimate purpose for calling someone the a grand jury other than to try to catch them in a lie. that is, you don't believe they've committed any other crime. but you're going to try to catch them in a lie so you can charge them with that lie. i think in this instance it's clear that robert mueller has a lot of legitimate questions that he wants to ask of president trump. and the idea that it's a perjury trap only exists if he chooses to lie. >> now jonathan lemire, the question for you which may call for a judgment, what is greater do you think...

Trap only exists if he chooses to lie. >> now jonathan lemire, the question for you which may call for a judgment, what is greater do you think in the trump camp? the fear of a subpoena or the fear of perjury? >> i think they're worried about both. i mean, they believe they have legal arguments to protect them against a subpoena. they dent believe that the department of justice in the code there that mueller is certainly a buy the book prosecutor, and we believe that they believe that they would not for that. perhaps it's perjury. everyone, as i reported before, people around the president jus...

Department of justice in the code there that mueller is certainly a buy the book prosecutor, and we believe that they believe that they would not for that. perhaps it's perjury. everyone, as i reported before, people around the president just feel that he is walking into a land mine situation if he goes in there, that he is so undisciplined when he speaks, and that he sometimes will try to say things to win over the room and to curry favor with these investigators. he's going to walk in there and some some mistruths or say things that aren't right or be selective in what he says and therefore ...