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President, directed that criminal conspiracy to violate campaign financing laws that was a federal criminal investigation and federal conviction for cohen but if a state law was broken, as a lot of people think it was by trump, for example, if he didn't report or if he reported that hush money payment as a business expense, it wasn't, so that would be a crime. so if there's ultimately a prosecution of president trump in state court, then the public would get to see the tax records if they're part of the evidence. >> david, in trying to get these tax returns, i know you've been looking into fin...

Circles around rude ey giuliani. he's not a particularly pr flak and less effective lawyer. >> i can't imagine rudy giuliani sitting with bankers boxes going through them the way the great glenn kirschner did during trial prep. you're in a windowless room with a highlighter and red pen and you're getting ready for trial. i just don't see rudy giuliani doing that. while he would be certainly interesting to see in a courtroom even after all these years, he just isn't prepared the way the rest of the mueller team is undoubtedly prepared. >> it's such a contrast to the time when he actually ran th...

Jay sekulow was with us. big, broad question. what is going on here, in the best way you can explain it to the american people? if you think i'm wrong on anything, please tell me. >> this is a constitutional situation. people ignore the fact that what we are talking about is a special counsel. investigating the president of the united states. these are leaks coming from hutu who? i don't know if the leaks are valid and i certainly don't trust "the washington post" on any of this. if what they are saying is true, if he's leaking this informatio information, what the constitution -- that's a ser...

Advantage of the rules and that he is really taken a very populace reading which is wildly held in the country of bankers getting away scott-free on the backs of the taxpayer and the little guy and that was his fury. i think he continues to see, you know, the value of expertise and the value of the capital system. it's not as if he against banks or bank than. it's just he has been very critical how the recession went down. >> broad question here. but given all you've described about his world view, stephen bannon's world view and the indication it has for president trump's policy, what does th...

What they did. >> bill: if there is a vote on infrastructure or you name it, pick your poison, he can bring pressure to bear. >> that's important. every president has tried to do that. not with tweets but tried to do it with radio talk shows and tried to do it giving speeches around the country. what i don't want the president to do is think he is a member of congress. he is not. they're separate but equal. he can try to guide them. he should motivate them and lead them and govern them, but he can't be them. so allow congress to be congress. >> bill: these are all fascinating ideas here. broad...