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There. and let me go to bill. bill, when you left the nsa, some of the things that we're seeing now are programs that you helped develop but you say it was intended to look at foreign sources, not u.s. is that the point that you feel like that our government has stepped across the line? >> yes it is. plus, the fact that they're collecting such bulk data. they were -- i left them with analytic principles like if you have a terrorist talk to somebody in the united states that was like the first degree. then the second degree would be who that person in the united states talked to. that formed a ...

There. and let me go to bill. bill, when you left the nsa, some of the things that we're seeing now are programs that you helped develop but you say it was intended to look at foreign sources, not u.s. is that the point that you feel like that our government has stepped across the line? >> yes it is. plus, the fact that they're collecting such bulk data. they were -- i left them with analytic principles like if you have a terrorist talk to somebody in the united states that was like the first degree. then the second degree would be who that person in the united states talked to. that formed a ...

Bill, when you left the nsa, some of the things that we're seeing now are programs that you helped develop but you say it was intended to look at foreign sources, not u.s. is that the point that you feel like that our government has stepped across the line? >> yes it is. plus, the fact that they're collecting such bulk data. they were -- i left them with analytic principles like if you have a terrorist talk to somebody in the united states that was like the first degree. then the second degree would be who that person in the united states talked to. that formed a zone of suspicion and also you...

Pal talk, aol, skype, youtube, apple." brurs, as someone who knows architecture pretty well, what do you make of that? >> it's hard to tell. there's a lot of ways you can parse these words. what does direct access mean? does it mean i have a wire in, i can tap my own queries? or does it mean i'm going to ask for this data, for this bulk data for everybody and get it shipped to me? you can call one direct access. you can call one indirect access. i'm afraid we're really just parsing this to try to save face. and i think this is@companies want to go public, because it looks really bad and they'r...

What does direct access mean. does it mean i have a wire, i can type in my own queries. does it mean i'm going to ask for this bulk data from everybody and get it shipped to me? i'm afraid that we're really just parsing this to try to save face. and i think this is why the companies want to go public. it looks really bad, and they're going to lose public trust. >> and there's obviously been a long conversation about these -- i mean, the irony here is, all these companies function, profit, specifically the way they make money is by knowing a lot about their users and selling that information to...