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Every single element of the food chain, if you will, are going into that. >> bill: but let's stay with the massive folks who earn 60,000 and down. it's not going to impact them very much on the income tax level having a 9% rate. it's just not. but if you live in a high tax state, like massachusetts, like california, like new york, everything that you buy goes up. now, you can't tell me that's going to help the mcdonalds -- >> i'm not in the flat tax business. >> bill: people should know the down side to this. >> no question. there are down sides, but there are tremendous upsides as well. gary ...

Every single element of the food chain, if you will, are going into that. >> bill: but let's stay with the massive folks who earn 60,000 and down. it's not going to impact them very much on the income tax level having a 9% rate. it's just not. but if you live in a high tax state, like massachusetts, like california, like new york, everything that you buy goes up. now, you can't tell me that's going to help the mcdonalds -- >> i'm not in the flat tax business. >> bill: people should know the down side to this. >> no question. there are down sides, but there are tremendous upsides as well. gary ...

Think? >> eric: revenue neutral. >> dana: i'll go quickly, on sales tax, one thing i wonder about is now spending time in new york city, the state sales tax is so high. what does it end up being? >> andrea: under cain plan, pair of shoes, 17% tax. ouch. >> greg: the only thing i can think of i can't remember the last time we legislated tax reform. it was the late '80s, right? >> bob: i give perry credit for shaking this up. this is the most radical departure of the reform. >> eric: are you on board? >> bob: i'm for perry. i know we'll crush him. >> andrea: all right. i want to savor the moment...

I mean, the cain plan looks like a total disaster from the point of view of most americans and that almost has to be true of anything perry proposes as well, right? a flat tax almost by definition will be a big tax increase for the poor and middle class. >> in terms of pulling ourselves out of the economic hole that we're in, stemming a second recession, as far as i understand it, we really have a demand problem. we desperately need to put some more demand into the economy so businesses have a reason to hire people because they have people to sell to. what would a flat tax achieve in that rega...