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Standby counsel. bill: this is his quote now: it becomes clear his goal is to remove impediments orness cls to the -- obstacles to the death penalty, and that strategy is repugnant -- the word you used -- to defense counsel and contrary to our professional obligations. even that appeal failed. >> yep. it failed, and the judge ultimately has the discretion to force them to stay on the case. and, remember, this isn't the first case where a defendant had a very odd or weird defense strategy and represented himself. ted bundy did, colin ferguson, the long island shooter, the d.c. sniper did, they ...

11 of those have been overturned. five that are remaining are on death row, waiting their actual execution which seems to be not ever happening in the near future. so the last actual execution occurred in 1961, jamie. so that really gives us a flavor, for, yes, the appeal process works in the military. is his pro se counsel representation assure he will be successful on appeal? there is more room for mistake, more room for error, more room for errors in the record of trial as it goes to appeal. i agree with you. i think there's no question it will benefit him in the long run, even if he wants ...

Will eventually lead to a death penalty and that's, in fact, what he wants, their duty is to be there to advise him on the law and to make sure that the proceedings are fair to him, and that's exactly what they're going to have to do whether or not they feel comfortable is not the issue. gregg: if hasan, doug, wants to self-destruct, he has a right to represent himself even badly, and, you know, those lawyers are just supposed to sit there on their hands until they ask questions. >> well, you guys are making an even better point which is this is different than if you're representing a client. ...

That way. jamie: we can probably count on that, grandstanding. >> no question. jamie: he said he started with the wrong side. meaning as an officer in the military and had crossed over to the right side in his 2 minute or 45 second i think opening statement. let me ask you this, captain. i'm only familiar with civil law and having done trials in civil court. >> sure. jamie: it is very different the rules, and what i don't understand, he's a psychiatrist. >> right. jamie: my thought is if he proceeds pro se or representing himself could he later in military court claim he had ineffective use of...

The defense can get it in other avenues. secondly, if the judge says it's not exculpatory. whatever you have in this database, it's just out there. all we have met a a date -- metadata it's not going to keep somebody convicted of a crime off the list. >> i get your point but a every judge will have to review what the data is and determine if it's in the interest of national security -- >> can i blow this out of the wear? major nadal decided he wants to defend himself. if we were able to have access to all this metadata, there's no way we would turn -- the fort hood shooter. >> the government a...