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>> it is. this issue with heritage has been there for a while. you would have republicans grumble about it behind the scenes. they would tell you and i things off the record. now you've got orrin hatch on the record -- this isn't john mccain, lindsey graham, usual suspects in the republican party that don't mind saying jim demint, i don't like him, this or that. this is orrin hatch, who, by the way, when he was first elected, he was part -- he's part of this new crazy conservative wing, people would say this about hatch in '76 and '80. my argument, this is a mainstream conservative. this is no...

Unlosable house? >> reporter: the shutdown could hurt them -- >> the debt ceiling fight is even worse. >> reporter: yes, if the debt limit -- if that was not renewed and you had an economic ka tras trow fee at the hands of the house conservative wing, that could in fact perhaps get the democrats in the house. that's what democrats think, steve israel sort of said that, that he believes that's where the best chance of winning back the house is. but from folks i've spoken to, they don't think mitch mcconnell and john boehner will do that. if you do not extend the debt limit, all of the new york ...

The entire gop field to the right? >> well, look, there's always this divide in the gop between iowa and new hampshire. this is like what we see every time. the ted cruzs, the rick santorums, they're going to vie for an iowa. you know, chris christie and the rest, they're going to try to go for a new hampshire. it's this establishment versus more conservative wing of the republican party. ted cruz, he's very well liked among evangelicals, very well liked among tea party supporters, but he's in new hampshire today. it's a different animal altogether. it's certainly not iowa. it's certainly not ...

We saw this tension. clinton versus brown back in the day. liberal/conservative wing. it does resolve itself over time. but it's messy. >> it's very messy. i think one of the symbols, it's so interesting this was a heritage foundation event last night to defund obama care. one of the cores of the obama care, the individual mandate to have health insurance, originally comes from the heritage foundation. this has happened over and over. i guess i would ask pataki. i speak as a liberal democrat obviously. the republican party has given us the individual mandate. which they said, let's try somethi...

>> i think it is what he probably believes. he's a more establishment guy, but context matters. look, this is a guy who in 2009 got pushed out of the race for governor by bob mcdonnell because bob mcdonnell was more conservative and better positioned to win the race. he stepped aside with the expectation from everyone in the republican party that in 2013 he'd be the guy. well, along comes ken cuccinelli, and the reality is it's a convention there, a very small group of people, activists, conservatives by and large, that pick the nominee. even in a primary i'm not sure bill bolling beats ken cu...