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Casualties will be over here. >> daniel elseberg, the perfect guest for these times. thank you so much for joining us. the author of "the doomsday machine: confessions of a nuclear war planner." and don't miss msnbc's special airing "the most dangerous man in america c daniel ellsberg and the pentagon papers" only on msnbc. thank you. we will be back in just a moment.sa w the change in rich wn we moved into the new house. but having his parents over was enlightening. ♪ you don't like my lasagna? no, it's good. -hmm. -oh. huh. [ both laugh ] here, blow. blow on it. you see it, right? is there...

Nsa has always denied. the obama administration has challenged snowden's credibility on many fronts, before and after the interview aired. national security adviser susan rice, dismissed his allegations as a spy. >> you can go back to the pentagon papers, edward snowden is a coward, he is a traitor, and he has betrayed his country. and if he wants to come home tomorrow to face the music, he can do so. >> snowden said in the interview he wants to come home, but believes under the espionage act, he wouldn't get a fair trial. backing him up on that is daniel elseberg himself, the pentagon papers ...

Enduring the deployment of this. instead of waiting until it was in place. >> should edward snowden come back and face a trial? >> it depends on what you think should happen to somebody who launched this global debate. who is his revelations have led to historic reforms, to ending programs that even the president thought had gone too far. if you think he should spend the rest of his life in prison, he should come back and face trial. daniel elseberg -- >> he got off because the nixon administration bribed a judge. >> he didn't try to flee the country. >> daniel ellsberg said the only reasonabl...

Your forehead. so the idea of mattoo, we're trying to have fun even as we're trying to bring a message of change and real efforts to get the economy moving. if we want to solve the problems we need to solve, we need independent thinking out of washington. maybe that starts with a mattoo as well. >> we shall see. matt miller, we'll be watching the race very closely. it's a wild affair. good luck. stay safe on the trail and we'll check back in. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> new fallout this morning from the nbc exclusive interview with nsa leaker edward snowden. and then another leaker, danie...

Allegations, not proven fact -- but by affiliating himself with assange, is edward snowden risking changing the narrative out there about himself for himself, standing up for something, standing up against the surveillance programs that the national security agency is standing for? >> well, i mean, i'm not certain what the extent of mr. assange's personal involvement was in any of this as opposed to the wikileaks organization, which has never been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of one. as you pointed out, mr. assange has never been convicted of a crime either. but i think the more i...