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Joining us is kevin roose. last week kevin decided to try to go off the grid for 24 hours. he writes this -- "for the next 24 hours i'm going to live completely surveillance free. i will foil chinese hackers and the nsa with encrypted texts and vpn tunnels, i will find ways to give things online without any personal connection and i will wear a funny looking hat with small light bulbs in it that will protect me from being caught on camera. i will attempt to stick to my normal routine for an entire day but without leaving a data trail behind. first of all, were you able to accomplish this task ...

Call that's being made. whether it's a connection between a charge, an american express charge, where a phone call's made in a particular place. overseas, connected to america. i think what's interesting, though, is that people don't care nearly as much as i think most folks thought they would. >> right. yeah. >> startling. >> i think that we've started to realize, i mean, this is an argument that was actually made with some eloquence by the guy who says he is the leaker saying, you know, the internet is a tv that watches you. that this is a device and a tool that you get more out of when you ...

How we do it is actually pretty hollow and i think they kind of know that. >> it seems like we're getting two arguments. one, this program has been irreparably harmed by discussing the details of it, and, two, the program is very, very effective, we just can't tell you how. neither of those is is an argument for we should be doing this. we are now as a country having an argument about whether we should be doing this. we didn't know to argue about it before because we didn't know for sure it was happening. we all suspected it. do you feel we were having a reasonable debate that's well informed?...

Between a charge, an american express charge, where a phone call's made in a particular place. overseas, connected to america. i think what's interesting, though, is that people don't care nearly as much as i think most folks thought they would. >> right. yeah. >> startling. >> i think that we've started to realize, i mean, this is an argument that was actually made with some eloquence by the guy who says he is the leaker saying, you know, the internet is a tv that watches you. that this is a device and a tool that you get more out of when you give it more about you. and so we've decided to ha...

Neither of those is is an argument for we should be doing this. we are now as a country having an argument about whether we should be doing this. we didn't know to argue about it before because we didn't know for sure it was happening. we all suspected it. do you feel we were having a reasonable debate that's well informed? >> i think right now what's happening is people are coming around again and again. it takes a while. it's taken the american people i think a while for their eyes to adjust, if you know what i mean. say, wait a second, this is how it works. i'm leaving a data trail wherever...