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Flux. so there is also a sense that gosh, there's a lot happening. so maybe it's not a bad thing to wait a month or two and let the dust settle and then hike it if we need to. >> and we've seen this over the debt ceiling. fierce negotiations between the white house and congressional republicans in the house. now we have congressional democrats looking to pass a bill that overhauls that debt ceiling process. in your mind, what needs to change? >> that's a good question. a lot of countries don't have the sort of debt ceiling limit that the u.s. does. you can argue about whether it is a good idea...

At the very time, we still have not raise the minimum wage in over 14 years, we have millions of people who work every day for what we call essential workers without a living wage, that poverty is the fourth leading cause of death is -- respiratory diseases and that we have millions, -- here's a moral issue. what if we had started from their? not started with, what can we cut and what we don't have, because we know this notion of scarcity is alive. people break the bank and cut taxes for the wealthy and then say we don't have any money. what if we said, we're going to start this debt ceiling p...

Holding the country hostage during all of this. that you didn't have to do this during the debt ceiling process. you could have done this during the budget and appropriation process. why do it during the debt ceiling process? >> when you have -- >> was your party country hostage? >> we were negotiating for a deal in a divided government. i think it's important to recognize and i think the white house is coming around to the point that they don't control all three branches of government anymore. as we've done through congress and all times in divided government, we're going to take the leverage...

Wouldn't have made this deal without thinking he has at least a majority of his caucus. so i really am so curious to see what the initial -- count is gonna look like, that's gonna be crucial for the next couple of days. >> absolutely, hayes, brown as usual, thanks so much for being with us. wendy, i want to pop over to you, that questions that have to be too. not so many questions about what is actually in this deal, actually a lot of questions about the process, looking forward dovetailing on the conversation you and i were just having. >> yeah, i mean, it is important talk about the deal. it...