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Deficit increase, or it actually would raise taxes actually when the economy was weak and make no sense at all. and i think what really is the concern for so many people is that when they're raising $1.5 trillion of deficit, you know, lawrence, we know what they're going to do. the moment they do this, the moment they have made the deficit that much worse than the out years, they're going to come back and tell people they have no choice but to cut medicare, medicaid, maybe even social security. they have $473 billion in medicare cuts and $1.3 trillion in medicaid. when you look at why this is ...

Legislation. gene, he is saying he wants a trigger mechanism to go into effect if the deficit starts to go up more than the republicans are projecting it will go up. but they are projecting it will go up $1.5 trillion. >> yeah, i mean look, i like bob corker. we work together well. i respect him. but with all due respect, you don't deal with gimmicks by creating a brand-new gimmick. this $1.5 trillion deficit increase is probably going to be larger when you actually take the gimmicks out. it could easily be closer to $2 trillion. so corker says well let's put in a provision. it's kind of like ...

Think the other stuff is all important, it is important. the reasonable we are even having this debate about tax reform is because of budgeting rules. have you got keep it under $1.5 trillion of potential deficit increase. i get all of that still, what voters are going to care about is whether the big things actually happen. lisa: they are worried about tax reform. big problem for republicans is they only have 52 senators in the senate for republicans. they can only lose 2 with vice president pence being that tie breaking vote. and there are six senators that have expressed concerns from a var...

This -- the pay go law limit reductions to medicare, meaning if this goes through, congress is going to have to cut into medicare. >> yes. that's exactly right. it's remarkable there's no cry over this deficit increase that we just were talking about. you can rest assured that if this goes through, that will then start and then there will be a great demand, not only for the sequestration to take effect and the ut ccuts to medicare. i think even the social security program would be back on the table for ways to reduce spending or that program entirely. this is, joy, in essence a movement toward...

This one way or the other? >> yeah, certainly the tax increases on middle class families are of great concern to not just democrats, but to some republicans as well. and if you look at the senate plan, that is where you see this problem is pretty egregious. it doesn't start off that way. but over time, all of the kind of goodies for the individual side of the code, targeted at middle and lower income taxpayers, they phase out, understood to squeeze this thing into a $1.5 trillion deficit increase instead of something larger. meanwhile the corporate and estate tax and the stuff for the rich fol...